Today in the World Series
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Oct 23, 2008 
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Game 2: Phillies (Myers) at Tampa Bay (Shields), 8 p.m. on Fox.
What we learned in Game 1: Cole Hamels was better than Scott Kazmir. Not not by a lot, but by just enough. And the Rays need to get a lead before the eighth inning, because Ryan Madson and Brad Lidge aren’t going to give it up.
What could happen tonight: Which Brett Myers will show up? That will determine this game. Just for the record, I’ve covered roughly 50 Yankees-Rays games the last three years and never once heard James Shield referred to as “Big Game.” Where did that come from?
————
The respected Baseball Analysts site asked assorted writers and bloggers to make their World Series predictions. I had the Rays in six and I’m sticking with it. They’ll lose to Hamels twice and win the other four games.
totally agree pete. hamels trumps kazmir twice, rays take the other four.
Just want to say excellent posts on the last post, SJ44.
I agree with your take on the Joba’s situation andThe CF situation 100%
Will O-Town be singing the national anthem tonight?
I think the Rays will take this game. Myers makes me too nervous.
Think the Phillies win tonight again.
Cameron is a solid option for one year and one year only, but I believe this speculation will be all for naught. The Brewers won’t waste a second picking up that option.
Let’s not throw dirt on Brett Gardner’s career after 127 at-bats. He played much better in September, and he is an absolute game changer once he gets on base. The key is – can he get on base? If he does so at a .340 to .350 clip this year – with the ground he can cover in CF – he should claim the job.
I don’t think anyone is claiming Gardner is going to be Willie Mays, but before everyone is willing to cast him aside, let’s remember that when Gardner moves up a level in play, he has struggled, then adjusted, then succeeded. I think that at bat versus Papelbon told you a lot about the kid.
I’m not against signing Cameron, if it’s for one year. But how good still is Cameron defensively at age 36. Does anyone honestly think Gardner, who is 11 years younger, couldn’t cover more ground?
It’s the reverse lock…too many people picking the Rays. The Phillies will sweep.
Phils in Phive.
If the Phillies take this game it will be very interesting to see how the Rays respond. The Rays were playing exceedingly hot with their bats, that seems to have cooled off quite a bit. Of course Howard looks more like Ho-Jo (the restaurant) than any hitting threat.
So I’m wondering, who still wants Ryan Howard to be traded to the Yanks?
…too early to mention it?
rconn,
What about Gardner makes you think he’ll ever be able to get on base at a .340 clip? He will never be pitched around so he will walk very little and he has no power so he’ll never drive the ball. I just can’t see him being anything more than a defensive replacement/pinch runner.
Just remember this: since the 1994 strike, a National League team has won the World Series in fewer than six games exactly once.
That’s not a very encouraging mark.
Ive been saying it, PHILLIES IN FIVE!
i didn’t know much about him, but after looking at his numbers, i will endorse signing Cameron for CF.
The Rays couldn’t hit Matsuzaka and then they just exploded. Mark my words: Myers and Moyer will combine for 5 innings of starting pitching.
“i didn’t know much about him, but after looking at his numbers, i will endorse signing Cameron for CF.”
for what it would cost to sign Cameron to play CF, id rather use the money for Texeira to play 1B, and keep Gardner in CF.
Can we stop speculating on Cameron until MIL makes a decision on his option?
The Phillies may or may not win tonight, but I still like them in the series.
James Shields is said to be embarrassed, but guys like Berman and Krust continue to use it. Why?
Mike Cameron isn’t the CFer, he once was. He might be like like Hawkins, DFA by July if he isn’t producing.
The offseason plan was to get younger and athletic.
Hello?! Embarrassed by the nickname, “Big Game James”
LOL. Leyland saying, “The Rays are supposed to be good. No offense, but they’re drafting 1st or 2nd year after year. They’re supposed to be good.”
Also said that pickoff was a balk.
IIRC, Big Game was started when everyone thought Shields would clinch at home, when the Sox defeated the Rays 4-2.
Cameron isn’t what he was is based on what exactly?
His numbers were pretty much in line with what he has done for most of his career. Even more impressive in a way since he missed the first 25 games of the season.
He’s more athletic than any of the CF’s on the roster right now. He is also better defensively than any of the other CF’s right now.
If they are going to get younger at every position, they might as well be the Royals.
They have a CF, who will be in AAA (Jackson) next season they are high on. By signing Cameron, there is no reason to rush Jackson.
There is nothing that Brett Gardner has shown to make anybody believe he is a 500-600 AB, everyday CF for the Yankees.
Its all filled with “could be’s and might be’s”.
If Cameron becomes available (a big “if”), signing him doesn’t preclude the Yankees from doing anything on the FA front.
It just fills a hole that currently exists on the roster.
“If Cameron becomes available (a big “ifâ€), signing him doesn’t preclude the Yankees from doing anything on the FA front.”
thats $10 million+ less that Cashman has in his given budget, if you are to believe the reports for the team going into 2009.
the money, to me, is better spent filling other holes, whether it 1B, the rotation, or the bench, on the team than giving it to Cameron.
“What about Gardner makes you think he’ll ever be able to get on base at a .340 clip?”
The fact that he’s has a career .389 OBP in the minors. The fact that he had a .414 OBP in 341 AAA at bats last year.
Sure, it’s a different level, but a .350 OBP is easily attainable for Gardner. And remember, he’d be hitting from the No. 9 spot. We’re not talking about batting him leadoff.
Taking a shot on Gardner who would cost nothing, versus paying $10 million plus for a past his prime Cameron – I’ll take Gardner.
Then you can use that money towards a contract for Mark Teixeira or C.C.
The priority should be:
1. SP
2. 1B
3. Secondary SP
4. CF
Sj -
take a breather. I just think Cameron’s career kind of went downhill after his collison with Beltran in 2005.
According to mlb.com, Shields was dubbed “Big Game” in the minors after James Worthy. Huh?
For whatever it’s worth, I am rooting for the Rays but my gut tells me Philly will pull it out. No I’m not trying to hedge my bets here because I truly could be happy with either team winning, so it doesn’t matter much to me if I end up being right or wrong.
I had a strong gut feeling the Rays were going to beat the Sux and I stayed with that feeling. Yeah I would have rooted for Satan against the Sux, but I still did feel in my gut that the Rays would pull it out. I don’t have that same degree of conviction with this series.
1. Rooting for the Rays as the AL team and definitely my heart is there.
2. Believing that the Phils may pull this out.
3. Really okay either way.
GO RAYS!
How did it go downhill Ed? His numbers are pretty much what they always have been. There hasn’t been any significant dropoff in his level of play or numbers since that collision.
He’s not an all star. But, he is a solid, veteran player. Guys that in today’s baseball are typically one year, stop gap guys for teams.
As far as payroll is concerned, they can slot his numbers in and still do what they want to do. If you add up what Cameron and Nady will make this year, its less than what Abreu made this season.
In today’s environment, I don’t see anybody giving Mark Teixiera a 10 year, 200 million dollar deal.
If he gets 18 million a year for 6 years, he ought to grab it. Its going to be very difficult for teams in today’s economy to commit to longer than 6 years for anybody.
Those that do will be personally on the hook for the deal because they won’t be able to obtain insurance for the entire contract.
If a team is dumb enough to put themselves on the hook personally for over 100 million bucks, good luck to them.
I wish XM had a way to allow people to re-listen to their interviews. I heard the most interesting interview with AM on 175 with Head of Pro Scouting for the Phillies Gordon Lackey. he has been around a very longtime and he talked about scouting on the pro level, how it has changed, how it is used (ie he does not have ANY interaction with the players) they put together their reports on a consensus basis and give it to the coaches who then are the ones who deal directly with the players. If there are questions it is the coaches who ineract with the scouting. You have to say this about the Phillies they have really put together a GREAT scouting department especially on the pro level I didnt realize that Chuck Lamar was also working with them. I am also going to link an article from SI that goes more into how much their scouting has paid off for them.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
Mel -
this is why James Worthy was dubbed “Big Game James.”
In the last 8 games he started (including 6 against TOR/BOS), Gardner went 12-for-35 with 6 RBI & 3 SB.
Did tutoring by Kevin Long finally kick in? Gardner’s an intriguing player for me.
Ed,
As a Laker fan, I appreciate that.
But what in the world does that have to do with Shields?
Mel -
I guess since James Worthy was really dependable when games does matter, Shields would be dependable as well to come through.
rconn,
A past his prime Cameron is still greater than Gardner.
You really think that Gardner could easily have a .340 OBP in the majors? Surely you jest? Jacoby Ellsbury who’s demonstrably better than Gardner had an OBP odd 331 this year and you think Gardner could easily surpass that?
And please don’t give me AAA numbers, take a looked at Melky’s numbers in AAA and then tell me about how great Gardner’s numbers look in the minors.
I forgot one of the other things that Lakey talked about was how he doesnt rely so much on all the “new numbers” that a lot of teams are relying on. How it is so important to see the player often and you can get a much better fell rather than just looking at some of the new numbers.
Big Game James…it rhymes.
Mel,
September stats for teams out of the race are meaningless.
Most baseball people will tell you that you never evaluate players based on September and ST results. Its fools gold and you often get false reads.
In recent years, that has been borne out on the Yankees end with guys like Shelley Duncan, Shane Spencer and Ian Kennedy.
Gardner is what he is. Yes, he can and should use the bunt more to his advantage. But, he is a limited player from a ceiling standpoint.
Even Mickey Rivers, the last Yankee CF whose game was similar to Gardner’s in a different era of baseball, had more pop.
Its very tough for a guy like Gardner to be an everyday player in the majors today. That type of game just isn’t prevelent anymore because its too limiting.
That’s why most talent evaluators see him as a 4th OF at the ML level.
Ed,
I got that. But he got the name in the minors. Must’ve had some teammates from LA. He’s from CA himself. He’s tall enough to be a guard. I’m beginning to connect the dots. haha.
Re: Gardner, I would submit that his best role on the Yankees would be as a 4th OF.
If he gets 150-200 AB’s a year, as well as spelling Damon (or someone else) for late inning defense, he can use his greatest tool (his speed) to his advantage and help the team.
Guys like Gardner get exposed when used too much. Using properly, he is an asset.
That’s why I believe a 4th OF role would suit him very well in NY.
Mel -
well Rowand is Shields cousin and went to school in Cali, Rowand probably gave him that. lol
If the Yankees really want Tex you offer 6 years and > 20 million. You do what the Dodgers might do when they offer Manny an above projected annual salary and a below projected number of years. If Tex holds fast or a team is foolish to go much longer in years you look elsewhere. I believe the thinking will be similar with CC – high on the money and shorter on the years.
SJ-
Are you Cameron’s agent?
SJ44,
Yes, I know the old adage.
And yes, I realize that guys like Halladay were challenging the rookie and saying, “Here. Hit this.”
But he answered the challenge. That’s better than not being able to in my book.
Like I said, I can understand all the arguments against using Gardner. I can even accept that he’s a 4th OF. But we’ll have a repeat of the ’07 & ’08 seasons if we don’t inject some kind of energy that doesn’t come in the form of a pill.
How many players with Gardner’s skill set have lasting success in the big leagues?
Baseball is littered with fast punch and judy hitters.
Michael Bourn
Willy Taveras
Joey Gathright
Jason Tyner
Carlos Gomez
Juan pierre
Corey Patterson
Mike Cameron is a better overall player than Gardner or Melky. I think signing Cameron (if he’s available) to a 1 or 2 year deal would be a great idea.
You don’t inject energy into a team by putting 4th OF’s into the starting lineup.
One way of injecting energy into a team is to upgrade the starting pitching.
For example, the Brewers didn’t have energy problems when CC was shutting down teams.
If the Yankees rolled out a starting five full of guys that give you a realistic chance to win every night, energy will be the least of their problems.
The team seemed awfully energized when Moose pitched this season. Why? Because they felt that was a “win” night.
Nothing is more energy sapping to a team than when starting pitchers (like Rasner, Kennedy and Ponson for example) put you in 2-3 run early deficits.
It forces you to play uphill the entire game and that saps a lot of zip from a team.
The yankees would be very fortunate to have Mike Cameron playing centerfield.
I honestly don’t understand people being down on him.
If you don’t think Mike Cameron is a good two way CF then you really don’t have a true idea of how bad an average CF is at the plate.
CF is arguably the weakest offensive position at baseball – and right now its particularly bad.
The yankees have to get away from the thinking that believes that only an all star will do at every position.
Having “good” players (not exceptional) signed at reasonable deals is an enormous value. That’s what Cameron would be.
I’d guess the Brewers will pick up his option. If they do the yanks should explore a trade. The Brewers have awful pitching – both in the rotation and the pen. If they don’t pick up his option the yankees should aggressively pursue him on a 2 yr deal. At $10M Cameron would be the highest paid player on the brewers and represent around 12% of their payroll. Perhaps they want to spend that money on a pitcher.
And I’ve seen it posted several times that if the yankees sign Teixeira then they can afford to have Gardner’s bat in CF.
This is completely untrue both because it overrates Tex’s bat and underrates how bad Gardner potentially could be at the plate.
There is a significant probability that Gardner will hit at close to replacement level CF production in 2009. What that percentage is exactly I’m not certain but I’d guess there is conservatively at least a 20% chance (probably higher) that Gardner is awful.
The yanks cannot take a 1 in 5 chance that CF in 2009 is as bad as it was in 2008.
No matter how good the surrounding players are having even one player producing at replacement levels absolutely kills a team. Having one replacement level player on an otherwise good team has caused several teams to miss the playoffs. You can’t just “make up” for a bat that bad. Especially with Texeira who is not orders of magnitude better than a league average first baseman.
Tex projects next year to the following line: BA:286/ 33HR/ 115 RBI/ 381 OBP/ .526 Slg. Nice numbers but far from Pujols.
Tex’s .900-.920 OPS is not going to make up for Gardner’s .700 OPS. Even if Tex goes crazy and puts up a 1.000 OPS season (which he has never done over an entire season) it still wouldn’t adequately make up for Gardner.
I hope that the Phillies win tonight, but they did what they had to by getting at least one in Tampa.
I understand, SJ.
But another thing that energizes a team are great defensive plays that save runs. It doesn’t have to be Gardner. We just need guys that can make plays. Hungry players will play hard no matter who’s on the mound. They’re playing with a chip on their shoulders and trying to prove themselves.
Anyway, I’ll stop blabbering about Gardner. It’s not really about him. But I still feel this team is a tired, old team. They need players that can energize the team and electrify the crowds.
Pete,
I emailed you that thing about the Backstreet boys yesterday…
Embarrassing for MOLB, isnt it???
SJ44 -
I would suggest that the team didn’t even need to be down 1, 2 or 3 runs, but that the feeling that it was going to be an uphill battle began before the players even took the field. Must have excellent 1, 2, 3 starters who give more the players on the field the “we’ve got this one” for those 3 games. 4 and 5, you should at least feel confident that if you play well, you have a chance of winning.
The Yankees need to improve their defense, especially at 1B, and they can’t have Damon in center. I’m not sure how Nady does in right as compared to Abreu (with is noted wallophobia, but his excellent arm). But if the pitching is good, it will keep even the most average defense on its toes. If the defense is good, the pitchers won’t feel they need to be too fine at the plate. Everything works in conjuction with everything else. Balance is key all around.
Until we know what Milwaukee’s going to do, I’m not going to get worked up one way or another about Cameron. He is a solid player. He’s older, but he’d definitely be temporary.
The more I think about it, the more I would like to see the Yankees sign Teixeira. I’ve gone back and forth and back on this one, but even at 7 years, I don’t see a down side to it. He may not be a superstar, but he’s a much better than average player with a solid bat and solid fielding. I’m so tired of the first base situation. It would be nice to not have to think about it for a few years.
Another thing for people not impressed by Cameron’s season last year.
Cameron was best free agent signing of the 2008 season in terms of net value of any player signed last winter. Better than Torii Hunter. Better than even Milton Bradley.
Cameron was worth 4 additional wins over a leage average centerfielder.
A player that produces 4 additional wins is worth roughly $15-20 M a year.
Cameron made $7 last year and is due to make $10 this year. And on top of that he could be signed to a short term deal.
Those kinds of values are exactly what the yankees need as they try to transition to younger players.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....nt-bargain
MLB, sorry.
Where is Bubba Crosby these days when you need him?
Why cant we just trade for Dejesus? A younger,better hitter,CHEAPER than Camaron.
Cameron is a type B FA… is it worth giving up the picks?
mel from taco bell? Are they paying you to advertise or is that your new place of employment? IN & OUT pays more.
People seem to think that Cameron is some ancient fossil. He’s going to be 36 in January. People on here are using 38 and 38 years old. He can play more than a competent center field next year and possibly in 2010 if necessary. He’s never going to hit much over .260-.265 again, but he still has power and he’s still an outstanding base runner. He also still has a “stop ‘em in their tracks†arm. Gardner can lear his job as a 4th outfielder. He’ll still get plenty of game time filling in for all three outfielders. Those are assets that can “energize a team”, regardless of age, which is about a year older than what Jeter and Damon will be.
mel -
I understand how you feel about Gardner and if there is no Cameron or other like him on the horizon, I would have to think the Yankees will be giving him an opportunity.
But remember, Melky energized the crowd, too. Both with some key hits over the 2 seasons prior to 2008, and with some really crowd-pleasing catches (remember the Manny catch?). Gardner will make plays, I have no doubt about that. I’m not certain about his offense. Like Melky, he could be carried IF everyone else in the lineup is doing their job. I think you have to worry about a worst case scenario if you’re the Yankees.
Doreen,
You bring up a good point about the defeatist attitude.
But there was a time when the Yankees felt invincible and played that way.
They felt they could put up 10 runs if they wanted to. So, I’m thinking there’s a possibility that they have offensive doubts, not pitching doubts.
We had some pitching gems by Andy the last 2 seasons that went by the wayside. Rasner got robbed of wins on several occasions, giving up 2 runs or less.
I don’t know if the malaise is recent, the scouting is better, the holes due to injuries, or what. But if the hitting was tight, it wasn’t always about the pitching. Who knows how the ace is going to do? Who knows? The scrub might give you a gem. The players know it’s an “anything can happen” game so you go out and play the games.
Your theory is sound, but I think the players had a lot on their minds. The last season, the injuries, finding their bearings with a new coaching staff. And yes, worries about the rotation.
“I’m not sure how Nady does in right as compared to Abreu (with is noted wallophobia, but his excellent arm).”
Abreu was the worst defensive player in baseball last year. The was 24 runs worse on defense than a league average RF.
It’s not his fear of the wall. His range just evaporated last year.
Abreu and Giambi (though to a lesser extent) were really the reason why the yankee defense was so bad.
Anyone would be an improvement in RF.
DeJesus is a left fielder playing in center field. He’s not all that great on defense. His offense is nothing that special…not much better than Melky Cabrera’s 2006-07 seasons.
Im going to get hammered on this one. If Camaron get his option picked up and Dejesus isnt an option. What do you guys feel about looking at Matthews? The Halos pay for half of his contract(not sure if thats possible). He atleast is steller in the outfield and would have better numbers than Gardner at the plate. O.K. Now your turn to trash me.
Gardner is a .230 hitter with 0 power. Pinch runner/defensive replacement at best.
Agreed, Nady looked 100x better in left than right. I’d sign Cameron, just so I could play Gardner over Nady in right. It’s that bad.
SoS,
That’s a great example of one man’s trash is another man’s trash, too.
yawn…this talk of gardner being garbage is getting quite old..this team has so many more pressing issues…if gardner is the starting cf this year you can bet hes gonna work his tail off to be all he can be (army slogan)….whether it hurts the yankees or not is yet to be determined..
He was also CC Sabathia’s closest friend on the Brewers this season.
If I were the Yankees, that’s something I’d keep in mind.
I have a feeling the Brewers are going to pick up his option. Even if they did, I’d still explore a trade for the guy. Especially if he can serve as a recruiter for Sabathia.
CC would be signed by a team before a sign & trade of Cameron, no? Or at least a bang-bang play.
“There is a significant probability that Gardner will hit at close to replacement level CF production in 2009. What that percentage is exactly I’m not certain but I’d guess there is conservatively at least a 20% chance (probably higher) that Gardner is awful.” I love the scientific reasoning.
Cameron is a good ballplayer but he is also 36 and has hit .242 and .243 over the last 2 seasons. While I’m not a big fan of Gardner I’d rather take the $10 Mil (or $10 mil and players if a trade is needed) and use it toward pitching.
Mathews defense wasn’t that good last year. He had 8 errors this year, and definately has lost a step. I’ve never seen the Angels pay to have a player work for another team. It’s not something they do and they still owe more than 30 million dollars on the contract.
The Big Game:
Probably just some bs nickname made up by the suits to get some interest into this stupid world series
“Mathews defense wasn’t that good last year. He had 8 errors this year, and definately has lost a step.”
GB7,
Nothing that a little b-12 cant fix.
“SoS,
That’s a great example of one man’s trash is another man’s trash, too.”
Damn mel. Can you wait for someone else to rip into me first. Never thought a BFF would be the first to pile on. Im faxing you the I & O application as i type.
Guys, Mike Cameron is a fine center fielder but he’s just not destined to be a Yankee.
IF the Brewers decline the option, Mike is going to want, and he’s going to get, a multi-year deal from someone. There just aren’t that many center fielders available and Cameron would be at or near the top of the list. The Yanks aren’t going to be that interested in giving him a multi-year deal, IMO.
BUT, the Brewers are going to exercise the option because Cameron’s worth the $10 million next year. Then, it’s a question whether the Brewers deal him. Seems unlikely to me, but if they do, they are going to get a pretty good return for him. Melky and IPK won’t get it done.
Do you really want the Yanks to unload top talent from the farm system to get a short-term fix in CF? There just isn’t that much talent there, and moving it for an older CF to hold a spot for AJax doesn’t seem wise or likely to me.
Plus, we aren’t going to be top bidder for Cameron if the Brewers did decide to trade him. The Yanks don’t have as much minor league talent as other teams and IMO someone will offer more.
I like Mike Cameron. SJ44 is right, he’s a fine player. But, he’s not destined for pinstripes.
“Cameron is a good ballplayer but he is also 36 and has hit .242 and .243 over the last 2 seasons.”
Cameron was 4 wins better than a league average centerfielder at age 35 (yes he only hit .240 as he does every year but had a .330 OBP and an .800 OPS).
Let’s assume Cameron plays significantly worse next year.
Even if he winds up being 2 wins better than an average CF he’s a bargain at $10M. Heck, if he falls off a cliff next year and becomes exactly a league average CF he’d still be a good value for the yanks.
People want to sign Teixeira – Tex projects to be around 4 wins better than a league average firstbasemen.
Cameron was 4 wins better than a league average CF.
That’s not a reason to not sign Tex. But it provides some context.
Doesn’t matter where you get those marginal wins from. You just need to get them.
See what I mean? Cameron’s the only appealing option and he might not even be an option? That’s how bad it is.
And trading for Rowand is the next best option?
I wanted Cameron last year when the brief plan looked to be trade Hughes and assorted flotsam for Johan and plug Cameron in CF.
That would have been a bold masterstroke and the season just might have ended differently.
That said, I would be all for Cameron in CF this coming season. He’s not my first choice, but I don’t know who the first choice is since we don’t know who is available yet and what they will cost.
The way I see it, Cameron is a way to actually have serious plus defense in CF — the type of defense that leads to more outs. The fact that the guy hits 25 homers and can steal bases makes the fact that he can barely hit .250 palatable.
If Melky could hit .250 with 25 homers and steal some bases every season, he’d be the CF of the Yankees.
He can’t do those things. Neither can Gardner.
The good thing about a Cameron signing too is we’re not locking into him long term if we bring him on.
Say Gardner starts to show he’s going to have the ability to hit .300 (or close to it). In that situation, Girardi can move Gardner into the lineup more and give him a shot. Putting Cameron on the bench or quasi-platooning him with Gardner as the season goes on is a possibility.
I see a lot of love for DeJesus on this board and I look at his numbers and I just don’t get it. Maybe the fact he’s from Rutgers has all of you blinded.
I look at his numbers vs. Cameron and I wonder why he’s the better option when we’d have to trade real pieces to get him from KC whereas we may get Cameron for money.
I think the goal of this off season should be to buy as many pieces as we can and save the prospects unless a youngish top 20 OF or Pitcher becomes available.
Outside of that, signing a guy like Cameron to patrol CF would be a huge upgrade to what we currently have out there.
Here’s a run down of this years free agent CF class. It’s abysmal:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs.....ield-class
Wasn’t Cameron suspended 25 games for a banned stimulant. 1st timers only get counseling, so this was his second time.
Think he’s worth 10M?
Yankee Trader,
Well, it depends. Do we have to pay for the stimulants or not?
The game is getting younger. We need to get with it.
We should have traded Sheffield for Camaron when we had the chance. Damn you NY POST for leaking it out before it was done. We could have just told Sheff that he needed to go to shea to recieve the best first baseman ever award.
“Big Game James” come on this is another brainchild of ESPN just like the “Nation” The rays are the team ESPN is gonna force fead you coverage of and analysis beacuse thats who they want to win . How can you call someone “big game” when he cant even win a start on the road and Tampa makes sure that his starts at home so what does that tell you about his big game name. It should be Cole “BIG GAME” Hamels in my eyes.
Damon-Gardner-Nady outfield?
With no 1st baseman?
Recipe for disaster.
Check out these stats for in re Gardner and Cabrera, in particular the first 5 years
http://baseball.espn.go.com/ml.....yerId=2538
Check out these stats for in re Gardner and Cabrera, in particular the first 5 years
http://baseball.espn.go.com/ml.....yerId=2538
The last time we had a need and went for the “best” of a pathetic class we ended up with Carl Pavano.
If Mike Cameron is willing to accept a 1-year deal with an option for a 2nd year, the Yankees might be open to the thought.
http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=1012
If Cameron’s option is declined and he accepts another 1 yr deal with an option, its a no brainer. Cameron is better than Gardner will ever be. Age is irrelevant for a 1 yr deal. He is still a great defensive CF and has good speed.
Solution.
Rocco Baldelli and Gardner play every other game.
Heyman time with Francesa
“Rocco Baldelli and Gardner play every other game.”
we are on the same page, sos. get rocco an unlimited supply of redbull or hook him up to a car battery in between innings or something….
It’s amazing reading this board sometimes and seeing how down people get on young players – based on relatively small smaple sizes.
Gardner sucks, Hughes stinks, Kennedy stinks blah ,blah, blah and on the silly specious logic goes.
Again, everybody wants to make a judgement on a player like Gardner after 127 major league at-bats, all the while ignoring history, that being the adjustment phases he went through in each level of the minor leagues.
No one is saying this kid is going to be a superstar, and he doesn’t have to hit home runs to give the lineup a boost. Get on base, steal bases and play quality defense. He’s shown he can do the latter two, give him more than 127 at bats to show that he can do the first.
I swear, I think some of the people who want to bury young players so quickly are the same ones who thought Colter Bean was the next Jeff Nelson or that a mediocre player like Ryan Garko would be an acceptable first baseman for the Yankees. Nonsense.
Want to say Garnder is going to hit .180? Fine. But no one knows for sure what he’s going to do until he’s given the chance to play on a regular basis. And he may very well win the job out of spring training.
To quote Jim Mora… You think you know, but you have no idea.
I agree with “the game is getting younger” and I agree with the “we need to get with it” but I don’t see how that related to Cameron. Not that he wouldn’t be an upgrade over Melky Garnder, but he’s not about getting younger. but he hit 4 home runs in one game! I like that.
This guy hit .240 last year and has a career average of .250…are you people kidding me?
Even Gardner can do that…
Forget about the .240 avg he hit .280 vs LHP and thats where he will help us he can platoon with Gardner and play against lefties. We were pathetic against lefties and have been for the past few years Im not saying that by himself he is the answer but I dont think he can hurt
Let me know when Brett Gardner can hit .240 with 20+ HR’s, 70+ RBI, and play an above average CF, while hitting in the 9 hole.
It has nothing to do with age. Mike Cameron is a better baseball player than Brett Gardner.
You want to upgrade a position, you go for the better player if the terms (ie: number of years) are amenable.
Its not just the opinion of people on this blog re: Gardner’s talents. Its mirrors that of just about every talent evaluator in the game.
Nobody sees him as a short term or long term solution to CF. If they did, they wouldn’t be looking at stopgap scenario’s in advance of Austin Jackson’s development.
The only way Gardner is acceptable in CF is if we sign Teixeria to play 1st.
Otherwise, you are sacrificing too much offense.
“If Mike Cameron is willing to accept a 1-year deal with an option for a 2nd year, the Yankees might be open to the thought.”
Take a look at the list of FA center fielders CB linked to. Why would Cameron only get a one year deal with an option? No way, IMO. If the Brewers don’t exercise the option he’ll get at least two, maybe even three years.
I guess I’m being negative but I just don’t see him with the Yanks next year.
Cameron for 2 years, 10 mil/year is a steal, enough said.
If Sabathia signs elsewhere, what other lefthanded starters would the Yankees realistically be interested in thru free agency or trade, and at what cost? Besides Pettitte for one year.
Randy Wolf
Oliver Perez
John Lannon
Jonathan Sanchez
Paul Maholm
Wandy Rodriguez
Jorge De la Rosa
Scott Olsen
Ted Lilly
Doug Davis
Dana Eveland
Dontrelle Willis
SJ44,
100% correct. The Gardner love on this board is insufferable.
Mike Cameron is better than Melky or Gardner will ever be and its not even close.
“we are on the same page, sos. get rocco an unlimited supply of redbull or hook him up to a car battery in between innings or something….”
lol. I knew i could count on you saucy. With all the money the yankees have. I would think he would get some type of solar charger suit. Under his uniform of coarse.
“Heyman time with Francesa”
Heyman’s a putz.
How about a Phiten uni?
We get the point, Cameron is great. But, is he available?
rconn23
October 23rd, 2008 at 2:13 pm
It’s amazing reading this board sometimes and seeing how down people get on young players – based on relatively small smaple sizes.
_____________________________________________________
Not everyone is down on his talents….just that he’s not ready to be given the full time center field spot. Defense is fine, but, he’s got to get on base and he hasn’t shown he can get on base, yet. He still has things to do to improve his hitting.
Let me know when Brett Gardner can hit .240 with 20+ HR’s, 70+ RBI, and play an above average CF, while hitting in the 9 hole.
.270, 1 hr (he’ll get lucky), 45 RBI’s 35 SB’s .340 OBP decent CF at the ripe age of 25 would work for me…
There are numerous examples of CF’s who were projected to be “light” fourth outfields who became starting players…mcclouth, granderson, and the best of all (look at his first 5 years)
http://baseball.espn.go.com/ml.....yerId=2538
If the Yankees solve their starting pitching shortage by adding 2 quality free agents, plus bringing back either Mussina or Pettitte, would you rather trade some minor league pitching talent for a young athletic and ready centerfielder?
CB – How is “wins above average …(fill in the blank)” calculated?
“Cameron for 2 years, 10 mil/year is a steal, enough said.”
So if it’s a steal, he’ll get more.
And if 2 years at $10M each is a steal, so is one year, which is why all this talk is pointless because the Brewers are going to exercise the option. And if they then trade him, he’ll cost a lot in a trade because he’s a steal.
The only solution i see that everyone would agree with is have Jeter roam the outfield and sign Furcal for short. Done. Next issue. first base.
The only solution i see that everyone would agree with is have Jeter roam the outfield and sign Furcal for short. Done. Next issue. first base.
_____
I wouldn’t agree with that….
Why would a 36 year old good defensive OF be amenable to a 1 yr. deal?
“How about a Phiten uni?”
mel,
Your on to something. CEO OF TACO BELL.
“The only solution i see that everyone would agree with is have Jeter roam the outfield and sign Furcal for short. Done. Next issue. first base.”
Furcal back surgery and playoff record with 3 errors in one inning. Let the Dodgers overpay him, along with Manny, which might give us a better chance at signing Sabathia.
SoS,
Phiten’s already developed a fabric with titanium or whatever voodoo they use woven into it.
Heyman’s a putz.
Did anyone say he wasn’t?
“If the Yankees solve their starting pitching shortage by adding 2 quality free agents, plus bringing back either Mussina or Pettitte, would you rather trade some minor league pitching talent for a young athletic and ready centerfielder?”
Phil Hughes would almost certainly have to be among the minor league pitching talent you’d have move to get a young athletic MLB centerfielder.
CF-Could Marlon Byrd be an option for any of you?
Good year last year, fill in until Jackson ready.
I refuse to abandon hope that the Yanks will sign both CC (or AJ) and Tex. Plus, if they also re-sign Moose or Andy, that will use up about $55M to $60M right there, and if they sign both Moose and Andy, $65M to $70M.
The Yanks are going to have to economize somewhere, and my guess is CF is likely to be it IF they can sign Tex. They won’t be able to afford a $10M center fielder as well.
If they don’t get Texeira, then it’s wide open.
“Did anyone say he wasn’t?”
His mother. Maybe his wife.
Wasn’t suggesting you were a Heymanite or anything. Simply reinforcing that which many knew already.
mel -
Regarding your 1:31 p.m. post — I can’t disagree with anything you said.
About that 1:31 mel post. I think SJ was right in what he said earlier about good starting pitching. Sure Andy and Rasner and others have given solid performances but there definitely is a different swagger when an ace is on the mound. You feel you will be in the game the whole way and theres less pressure to get the big hit. Even if Rasner or whoever had a good start once in a while there isnt the same release of pressure as when a Wang or CC or even Burnett is on the mound. If we shore up starting rotation I think the burden will be off the offense and you’ll see that swagger you saw back in the day.
Wave Your Hat,
Cameron took a 1 year deal with an option just last year.
Heyman is very good during the off-season and around the trade deadline… he really contributes nothing the rest of the year, he just listens to Francessa talk.
Right now, he is just rehashing information from last month. But he will be very useful when the WS is over and he actually has real information.
“Heyman’s a putz.”
He doesn’t like Mike Mussina. That alone makes him a putz.
Cam’ron might take a 1 yr deal to go to a winning team and win a ring. He did take a 1 yr deal last year.
He is friends with A-Rod and he is very close with CC. I don’t know why we didn’t sign him last year when he wanted to come here.
“Cameron took a 1 year deal with an option just last year.”
I think Cameron’s suspension made him damaged goods with respect to that contract, which he signed after the suspension was announced.
If he signed a new contract I don’t think it would be discounted the same way.
The NFL’s Raiders may have lost stature in recent years but they were the originator of the “Nation” of followers and others like Boston were quick to copy.
The Phillies and who knows who have jumped on board.
http://www.philliesnation.com/
Is Cameron close to Larry Bowa too?
I find Heyman and Olney much better than the local NY hacks from the Post, Daily News, Newsday, etc.
But saying you are better than Madden, Harper, King III, Shermann, Matthews etc. is more an indictment on them than it is a compliment of Heyman/Olney.
I’m actually one of the people who think I saw some big strides made by Gardner towards the end of the season.
Particularly, the series in Toronto at the end of the season, he was driving the ball better.
That said, we cannot make the mistake again of guaranteeing any kind of spot in the field or the rotation to an unproven rookie during the off season.
It is Cashman and the Yankees job to have the kids as options down the road.
If you weren’t paying attention last season guaranteeing anything to a rookie from the outset (outside of Joba) was a massive mistake and we had no backup plan.
We need a starting CF — let Gardner be the back up plan and if someone gets injured or under-performs he will get his shot.
Everyone in this fanbase gushes about Cano and Wang — if you don’t recall they weren’t even in the discussion of starting in spring training.
They earned their callups by performing well in the minors, fought for their jobs in the majors and proved their mettle.
Telling Bret Gardner this winter, “Kid, you’re it” with only Melky or Damon as the backup plan for him would be a complete joke.
It’s the same reason why if Cashman even casually mentions Hughes as one of his 5 probables for the rotation, he should be slapped across the face with a dead fish.
The team needs depth and flexibility. It doesn’t need to become “let’s put a kid at every position and watch them grow” because in most cases, they don’t grow into what they are projected to grow into.
I want Gardner on the team, but I don’t want him named our full time CF. He has not shown enough at the major league level to even warrant that kind of decision unless the Yankees are suddenly the KC Royals.
“I find Heyman and Olney much better than the local NY hacks from the Post, Daily News, Newsday, etc.”
Heyman was a local hack as recently as 12-15 months ago, no???
Being with SI somehow make him less, um…hackish????
Wave Your Hate,
If the Yankees offered a more lucrative contract with an option or a buy out he might take other depending on what the numbers are. I don’t think anyone is going to give him a 3 year deal if the Brewews decline the option and even if the Yankees offered him a two year deal it wouldn’t be a bad thing.
James Worthy is on the Rays?
Raymagnetic-
You may be right and I sure wouldn’t mind if the Yanks did that deal, assuming the Brewers don’t exercise their option.
But, I wouldn’t want it if it meant the Yanks couldn’t sign both CC and Tex, for instance.
Uniform No. 25 will be available in the event that Cashman lands Mike Cameron.
Sorry, but Brett Gardner is little more than a Bubba Crosby with more breakaway speed. His value is as a pinch runner and a late game defensive replacement.
Wow.
WFAN has hit a new low.
Some caller suggested we sign Manny and platoon him with Matsui LOL
Fredo,
As long as he isin’t analyzing baseball on the field, he is very good. He is great at breaking stories and digging for information from execs, GMs, scouts etc. He shouldn’t analyze the game like Francessa asks him to do… Thats what Verducci is for– to be the baseball analyst whereas Heyman is the business/investigative guy.
Francessa tries to use him as a hybrid and he ends up sounding like an idiot.
Big game james comes from the same idiots who created big game john lester after a game 4 ws win up 3-0 and a game 1 alds win over a hapless anaheim team.if u aren’t a yankee, espn will hurl the “big game” title on you with relative ease.
“But saying you are better than Madden, Harper, King III, Shermann, Matthews etc. is more an indictment on them than it is a compliment of Heyman/Olney”
Thats like saying you are valedictorian of summer school.
Both Olney and Heyman made their names on the Yankee beat.
Thats why I like Peter. He doesn’t write things just to hear his name on the radio or to sell copy.
Phillies in 5. Tampa is out of gas and I think they’ve finally been psyched out by the success and spot light.
“Big Game” Shields has the 3rd highest ERA on his own staff. He is 1-2 and has the highest BAA of anyone on his staff.
Winning game 1 of the ALDS made him a big game pitcher, I see.
hank,
Thats like the people here calling Hughes a big game pitcher off 3 innings in the ALDS.
Embarassment is in the eyes of the beholder. That’s for the poster who said he emailed Pete to tell him what an embarassment the Backstreet Boys were for MLB. Really? How about the audience at the Trop seemed to love them. How about they have a Florida connection?
One thing I notice about this forum is that there seems to be a need to constantly put down someone or something, to find a way to take a shot at someone or something, to try to find the dirty underbelly of every situation and then adopt a holier than thou attitude. Who died and made anyone here king?
You know what’s an embarassment to MLB? The fact that there are so many purported fans of baseball but they think they’re too good to watch Tampa and the Phils play baseball. Not cool enough. Not exciting enough.
Why do I come to this forum, you might be ready to ask? Because it is supposedly a Yankee forum and I didn’t realize that just about every lead-in would find a way to take someone or something in the world down. So I ended up coming here for the camraderie with a group of people I have really enjoyed being with. For a displaced Yankee fan, that is a nice thing to have. Yes I have my own forum, but there are times when there isn’t a lot of activity. You can always find some activity here.
I am not a negative lemon-sucker by nature and I am not stimulated by people who live to take shots at everyone and everything. Yes I have my issues with the Sux but come on now. It’s all about baseball. Trashing the Backstreet Boys, Alex Rodriguez for his personal life, and every other thing happening in the world isn’t the best way to start out conversation here. In fact it sets a lousy tone if you ask me.
Just my opinion.
Jackson with a solo HR
ajax with a homerun off scherzer
G. Love,
I don’t think Gardner should be named the starting CF either. Just give him a chance to win the job in spring training. The only thing right now that’s for sure about the centerfield spot for the Yankees is that nothing is for sure.
There’s a lot of Cameron talk, but it seems like a pipe dream. If he’s still as good defensively as everyone seems to think he is – and I haven’t looked at the metrics recently – then the Brewers will almost certainly pick up that option.
Then the option is acquiring him by trade, and why give up prospects of any value for a 36-year old player who you would have for a year?
I’m not worrying about CF until the two primary areas of concern are dealt with– starting pitching and 1B.
CF debates at this stage are like trying to figure out how to re-arrange the living room furniture while the roof is leaking buckets.
“CF debates at this stage are like trying to figure out how to re-arrange the living room furniture while the roof is leaking buckets.”
Exactly. Until we have a new SP and a REAL 1B, CF can wait.
I hate that type of thinking. Cashman should look at every possible upgrade he can make to improve the team. Its not like he’s going to run out of time/money if he goes out and signs Mike Cameron before signing a SP or 1B.
“Its not like he’s going to run out of time/money if he goes out and signs Mike Cameron before signing a SP or 1B.”
Actually, if reports as to what Cashman wants to do about payroll can be believed, I don’t think they can afford to sign CC, Tex, Andy (or Moose, if he comes back, or both) and Cameron, if reports can be believed.
But Cameron will be a Brewer so this is all hypothetical anyway.
get me a real 1st baseman
stop using it as a 2nd DH or put an inferior fielder there and/or platoon olayer (miranda) there.
go get tex or trade for one.
The Brewers have invested in their team and made them relevant again. They want to make a run at CC. If Cameron is so important wouldn’t they pick up the option?
The fans want a winning product in Milwaukee. Sure, it’ll be tough without Sheets and/or CC, but the Brewers owe it to the fans. They’re more likely than not to pick up that option. Especially with the dearth of CF options.
*If Cameron is such a great recruiting tool for CC.
Matsui and Miranda for David Lee
Cubs get some lefty power to balance their lineup, we get a power right handed bat who plays great D and has won before.
Ha. If CC signs with the Brewers, I VOW to fly to Milwaukee and eat a bratwurst and post photographich evidence. Let’s keep it real.
Mel— I agree. Cameron will be with the Brewers. IF the Yanks address starting pitching AND 1B and still have the resources to pursue a CF upgrade, that’s fine. But first things first.
Of course there’s nothing wrong with speculating about all possible moves, hell I’ve mentioned several bench players I’d love to see brought in. The point of my original post was that there was an awful lot of discussion about a lower priority area and it was focused on a guy who most likely won’t be available.
We don’t know what the Yanks budget for 2009 payroll is, but my guess is its about what they shelled out last year. It sure as hell won’t be a $ 29 M cut. That’s why the greatest needs must be addressed before an expensive upgrade in a lower priority area is considered.
I can live with a Melky/Damon/Gardner/Christian combo in CF IF we get Tex, CC and another starter.
Does anyone have any input on whether Miranda could be a serviceable 1st baseman next season? I know he does not have a high ceiling, but we’ve seen him on the 40 man for years and he’s now 25. Is it possible we could get by with him next year, offensively or defensively?
“CF debates at this stage are like trying to figure out how to re-arrange the living room furniture while the roof is leaking buckets.â€
Cant we just use our water proof patio furniture for a year? Then we will be able to fix the leak and go get some nice pleathure furniture after.
David Lee is my neighbor, but Derrek Lee is a pretty good player.
Don’t know if Matsui would agree to that deal and not sure the Cubs would do it unless they are 100 % convinced about his knee. But if all involved are healthy it’s a deal that could help both teams and save Yankees recources for CF upgrade and of course starting pitching.
I don’t think Mike Cameron is the difference between the Brewers contending and not. At the end of the day, he is a 36 yr old CF who hit .240 and makes $10 million, he is also a type B free agent and GMs like Melvin who have struck gold in the sraft love those those picks.
And they may even need to put some of Cameron’s money towards CC, though they will still likely fall way short.
86,
I’m with you.
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....ent-576204
SOS— very funny!
Miranda could share 1B with a RH hitter like Millar or Blake in a discount solution to the position.
JGNYC,
What i hear is his defense isnt that good. We are all forgetting that Posada might not be able to handle all the load behind the plate. Heck, he might not be ready at all. So that leaves the options of either dh or 1b. Matsui needs a.b.
“But Cameron will be a Brewer so this is all hypothetical anyway.”
Don’t be so sure. Milwaukee is a small market, I’m not sure they can afford Cameron @ 10 million. As CB said earlier, he would be about 12% of Milwaukee’s payroll next year. Even if Milwaukee picks up his option he can still be traded. I’d definitely give up a few pitchers for Mike Cameron.
NY will not let an extra $10 mil get in the way of a very significant upgrade. I highly highly doubt the Yankees will spend $100+++ million on both Tex and CC.
Cameron’s defense is not what it once was…average, at best, and having watched many Brewer games this past year, IMO, below average, especially going back on the ball, direct or on an angle. Fathertime has taken his toll.
His batting is sporadic at best….he will hit for a Melky-type BA. The only positives are 25 or so homers, and a good dugout/clubhouse presence. It would be a big mistake to sign him, assuming the Brewers pass, which is unlikely due mainly to his positive impact on the younger players.
JG,
Miranda at this point is a platoon player. Kills righties, can’t hit lefties. Very average in the field and if you use those advanced zone ratings or whatever, he is probably way below average.
His best asset is trade bait. Doesn’t really fit what we need— we struggled mightily with lefties all year as a team and he can’t hit them. He plays very average defense and we’re looking to get much better in the field.
nicksf.
Please provide your 5 star pick this eve….
I am leaning towards the opposite of last night. TB and over.
Will you touch the WV/Aub game?
Patrick-
I hope you are right about Cameron but I hope you are wrong about CC and Tex.
I wish the Yankees could do business the Buffett way. Too bad ownership and the fanbase are so impatient.
“Buffett hasn’t panicked during the recent financial turmoil, and he hasn’t tried to make a quick buck. Rather, he’s investing for the long term. In the past few years, that has meant waiting for opportunities to present themselves, and striking with a vengeance when they do.
And because of his patience, he hasn’t had to compromise. He’s getting great companies at great prices.”
On a different topic, has anyone else read Josh Hamilton’s new book?
It’s a good read, even if much of it has already been reported many times.
A lot of it is directed at combatting the common perception that his addiction was a result of his parents being overprotective (living and traveling with him through the minors) and then leaving him on his own after their car accident.
The book doesn’t really answer the big question – how does a good kid become a crack addict. Josh treads pretty lightly over this one – briefly mentioning his boredom, loneliness, self-doubts, fear of failure, fear of success, etc. that led to his addiction. He talks a lot about being in the wrong place with the wrong people, and just going along with and seeking approval from whoever he’s with, even from drug dealers and addicts.
Anyway, it’s a good book and a worthwile way to spend some time during the looooooong offseason.
86w183 -
I so don’t want a discount solution to first base. First base is like the forgotten stepchild position on the Yankees. (No offense to stepchildren everyone, or stepparents, as I am one and have the other!)
Clare,
Haven’t read the book, but it’s a good story.
I think it’s weakness. It’s the only explanation in my book.
Weak for trying the drugs in the first place and not being able to prevent it from getting out of hand.
It’s not like he was homeless and had no support system. Far from it.
Addictions attack the weak.
I wish him luck, though.
Doreen—
I don’t either. And I’m a stepchild myself. I was just answering a question about Miranda who I don’t think can play full-time but could platoon.
Mel,
In a perfect world, building a franchise the “Buffet Way” would be the way to go.
However, with a rabid media and fan base, the Yankees don’t have that luxury.
The media and fan base definition of “patience” is one season out of the playoffs.
Its Cash’s biggest challenge. Balancing the need to be competitive with the long term interests of the franchise.
Its a very delicate balancing act.
Its why his philosophy of “paying once” (via free agency) for certain players, rather than “paying twice” (giving up valuable prospects and signing guys to huge deals) is the way to go.
trisha – DAVID SLEW THE FAUX-GOLIATH!
October 23rd, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Embarassment is in the eyes of the beholder. That’s
—————————————————–
EXCELLENT comment Trish and DEAD ON!
Unfortunately, the problem is that VERY FEW ‘fans’ here are baseball savy. You get very little fact and analysis here, but lots of ‘I just puked this up’ opinions. And you know what they say about opinions (and *ssholes)….
So a lot of the drek said here is because some people have nothing better to add.
86w183 -
I understand you position now – regarding Miranda.
OYF and Trisha -
In fairness, we get both here. We get some good analysis, we get some people who are savvy with stats, we get some well-thought out opinions. But then we get the rest, and as in all things, the drek gets recycled over and over, and sometimes takes over the mood.
It passes. I know – I was feeling overwhelmed yesterday, if you happened to read my lament.
If it was predominantly good here, I wouldn’t keep coming back.
mel,
I completely agree. I think it’s weakness to go along with whatever those around you are doing – which Josh admits to.
I also do place some blame on his parents, despite his best efforst to convince his readers otherwise.
He clearly never learned to make good decisions for himself. He never went to his prom, out of fear that something might happen that would derail his career. He never had the opportunity to learn to handle himself away from his parents and baseball.
Anyway, interesting story.