Hughes on the hook
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Oct 24, 2008 
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Phil Hughes pitched three innings in the Rising Stars game in Arizona, allowing one earned run.
That’s the good news. The bad news is that he allowed home runs by Chad Huffman and Josh Reddick and a double by Casper Wells. The line for Hughes: 3 3 4 1 2 3. All of the trouble came in the second inning.
Austin Jackson started in center field for the National Team and has walked and struck out. He also has a stolen base.
I know this is a strange suggestion, but what about Cal Ripkin JR for 3B coach?
LOL no. As for Hughes 5 more days to get back on the horse and do better.
brandon -
you got that info on Hanson from BA?
Brandon,
LOL. It took Moose years to deal with defensive lapses.
Looks like he just didn’t have it. Probably left everything up.
Hate to bring this up, but Johan/Phil is looking terrible right now. Can’t turn back time
Second bad start in a row for Hughes.
How long is he going to live off his 2006 reputation? Now we’re giving him a spot in next year’s rotation, based on what?
An open competition is as good as giving him a spot. Who is his competition? Kennedy? Aceves?
Al from Burger King,
Don’t even remind us bro
its painful. Hughes can’t even get out AFL hitters, Santana pitches shutouts in 3 days rest.
That trade WILL go down as one of the worst non-trades ever. They will use this as the punch line of jokes every off-season from now on, as a way to compel GMs not to miss out on aces and overvalue prospects.
TBH I’m not concerned about the results as much as the fact that this is hurting his trade value.
Oh god will you people get over the non trade already!
And please, hold onto your shorts about Phil’s poor outing. You know it does happen from time to time. Heck oh my gosh even Johan got smacked around this year!! Oh gosh, he stinks!
you got that info on Hanson from BA?
Yeh.
That kid opposing Hughes, Chris Hansen is nasty. 7 Ks in 3 innings.
Heyward/Hansen > Peavy.
Scherzer looked great yesterday too. So much great young pitching in baseball. The NL is going to be loaded soon.
If it turns out that it was Isiah, and he tried to deflect, I don’t know what to think.
mel Isiah is a prolific liar, manipulator and a conartist. I hope he didn’t deflect it to his daughter so he could save face because then I would just add miserable human being to his cons.
jennifer,
Santana did not lose a game since June. He went 8-0 with a 2.17 ERA after the ASB with 3 complete games, including one on the 2nd to last day of the season.
Mets won 10 of his final 11 starts and only gave up 3 ER or more 4 times in 34 starts. He threw a career high 234 innings and pitched deep every game.
There is nothing negative that can be said about Santana. If you followed the Mets this year, you would realize how much he meant to them. Whenever it looked like they were about to fall off a cliff, he saved them.
True or False: there was a deal on the table that would have sent Phil Hughes to the Twins as part of a package for Johan Santana and it died because Bill Smith got greedy and asked for more?
jennifer – I’m a Hughes fan but there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to compare the two this year. We deserve to take our beating until Hughes does something. Santana looked out of this world this year.
True, Nick. How’s the futbol de norte americano going? I’m in NBA mode.
Hey, isn’t there some kind of support group or hotline number for those who can’t let go?
Nick – True.
Hughes was not the dealbreaker at all… he was on the table and we were willing to trade him.
The trade fell apart over the 3rd player in the deal. We wanted it to be Marquez, they wanted it to be Jackson/Tabata. Thats what eventually killed it– Smith tried to get Hank to channel his inner George and go crazy for a player, and he didn’t.
True.
Smith nixed the deal. Not Hank. Not Hal. Not Cashman.
If they would have taken Hughes/Melky/Marquez, Santana is here.
“Front Row
October 24th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
jennifer,
Santana did not lose a game since June. He went 8-0 with a 2.17 ERA after the ASB with 3 complete games, including one on the 2nd to last day of the season.
Mets won 10 of his final 11 starts and only gave up 3 ER or more 4 times in 34 starts. He threw a career high 234 innings and pitched deep every game.
There is nothing negative that can be said about Santana. If you followed the Mets this year, you would realize how much he meant to them. Whenever it looked like they were about to fall off a cliff, he saved them.”
But that’s the whole year. And she was saying even Johan has bad starts. Not that he was awful the whole year.
Nick you are 100% right.
Thats why people need to stop blaming Cashman for not giving up Hughes– he did offer Hughes. He wasn’t going to give up more than that and Smith tried to weasel more out of us. Smith’s greediness was the reason for the non-trade
Wow. Go to the post to find out the scoops on Isiah, and they’re running a story that Jennifer Hudson’s mom & brother died.
The Post is saying it was Thomas and when reached by cell, he said it was the daughter and it wasn’t an overdose. It’ll all come out eventually. Who knows if what the Post is saying is true, but the police said it was a 46 year old male. ]
What a you know what if that’s true.
MO 42, amen.
We all just need to keep our mouths shut and hope Hughes lives up to the hype. We cannot discredit Santana in anyway without looking bitter and ignorant.
And there is really no way to defend Hughes either without sounding like an apologist. Right now, it absolutely looks like a mistake not to make the trade. Only time will tell if that we indeed the correct choice. Rehashing the trade doesn’t do any good for anyone involved. Hughes bashers come off as whiny and Hughes supporters come off as delusional. Time to just let it go and hope for the best.
Easy guys, you may get labeled a Hughes groupie like I am if you continue to say that Hughes was on the table and it’s all Brian Cashman’s fault why Hughes wasn’t traded for the Legend Santana.
“they’re running a story that Jennifer Hudson’s mom & brother died.”
Yeah this is just terrible right here. It’s said that the sister’s psycho baby father killed the mother and brother and took the 7 year old son. He’s still on the run too.
So Isiah is now claiming his daughter is a 46 year old male?
LOL, just when I thought he couldn’t sink any lower.
Not to be an Isiah Thomas apologist or anything but if it was him who had took too many sleeping pills would he have been able to give a phone interview about the situation shortly after the incident happened?
Thanks to those who answered. So the consensus here is that Cashman *was* willing to trade Hughes for Santana as part of a reasonable package but that Bill Smith got greedy and asked for more/tried to shop the deal to Boston.
The football game is going well, BSU is up 7 at the end of the 3rd quarter, SJU about to start a drive. The over hits on the next score and SJU is currently covering.
Nick.
We need a SJS score.
igotid88
Thank you.
MO 42
I didn’t compare the two. Hughes is a rookie who missed a good portion of the year. Johan is a vet, who pitched very well down the stretch, but who also had his garbage starts, as EVERY SINGLE PITCHER DOES!!
Funny note, go check out Johan’s page on baseball reference, see who sponsored it.
The Isiah story is just eerie and bizarre, so many conflicting details.
The truth will come out shortly though.
Paul O’Neill for bench coach
Break the bank for him to come back and work!
DPF: yup, I’m liking how this drive is going. Obviously a TD would be huge for us. I have 8 points ( I bought the 1/2 point from 7.5).
Don’t know who you guys are cheering for. I’m in a win-win. A Boise loss would be sweet. But if Boise gets a BCS bowl bid, my school gets a share of the pie.
So go whoever you guys are cheering for.
Um, I *was* liking how that drive was going. Now? Not so much.
Need a pick 6.
It will be a split however I guess Bill Smith and I have something in common…
SJS seems to give up every 3rd down. Dispiriting. Let ‘em score here and then get the points back and we can all go home happy.
TD here and then a junk score.
i played against Casper Wells when I was 16.. He’s from Bethlehem,NY.. Upstate, outside of Albany.
Game 1 of Phillies-Rays did a 9.2 rating
Game 1 of Lakers-Celtics did an 8.7 rating
10 points is ok, that means SJU might settle for a FG if it gets that far.
That is the first play of the drive down ten??
SJS has lost the plot.
Well that’s that.
LOL. Improbably, Hughes is off the hook. 5-5 bottom of the 8th.
And the pitcher who blew it was Eddie Kunz of the Mets, their top closing prospect.
I guess he is just taking cues from his parent club LOL
DPF, your first instinct was correct. Hope you had more on the over than on the +7.5. I took a few teasers at +17.5 and +20.5 so I’m still in good shape. Go Bears.
Oh god Kunz…
Cashman could have had Santana for a package that didn’t include include Hughes (ex. Kennedy, Melky, Marquez, Tabata) but he blanched over the money. That’s the bottom line.
We’d be playing for the title now if Stick was the GM instead of this overmatched son-of-a-Steinbrenner-friend.
Who told you that the tooth fairy ?
randy – i agree 100%
Randy — agree with you too.
Cashman acted like a petulant child when it came to possibly trading Hughes and Kennedy last year, not to mention Melky who the company line became “well, who’s going to play CF then” as a way to defend the non trade.
Have you all forgotten the Cashman and Theo Magical Mystery Tour wherein the two GM’s appeared together talking about how they wouldn’t trade their young players for anything last off season?
Cashman had a GM crush on Hughes and the Steins didn’t want to pay Johan the money.
That’s why the deal fell through.
Claiming that we really worked hard at dealing for him is false.
Cashman made an offer prompted by Hank, Smith declined and Pettitte resigned and Cashman claimed the budget wasn’t there for Johan.
Hal agreed and didn’t want to spend the coin for Johan.
That’s why he’s not here.
As for Hughes and his struggles in the Arizona Fall League, Brian Cashman better not have the audacity to mention his name as one of his 5 probable starters.
The kid needs time to develop and is not a major league starting pitcher at this moment.
Nothing should be handed to him ever again if they want him to develop in this organization.
If you think he earned the 5th starter spot for next season, put down the kool aid and take off the yankee prospect hugging glasses and get real.
There are prospects from other teams pitching the lights out in this league and Hughes is struggling.
He’s not ready yet.
How did Santana do again this yr???
Santana didn’t lose a game in 3 months and had a 2.17 post ASG ERA. He threw a CG SHO on 3 days rest.
He was a bonafied ace, something we haven’t had in years and something Hughes isin’t going to be.
Old saying: “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
G. Love and Randyhater -
Agree with the both of you guys. Not trading for him was a mistake. Cahman is going to regret that for a long time.
dam so many people still talking about santana…that deal DIDNT HAPPEN…no way around it..complain all you want but thats not gonna change anything…let it go people, let it go
G. Love – the last few lines of your post was spot on.
Cashman better not even think for a second about allotting a spot to Hughes this year. His awful AFL stint should just further affirm that he isin’t ready.
He has more service time than most of these guys combined yet he is struggling against Double A level raw offensive talent who he mowed down 2 years ago. Three innings in the ALDS should not distort Cashman’s view on him. He needs to stop living off his 06 reputation and stop having excuses made for him. Not holding him accountable for his performances is a poor way to develop talent. Stop giving him excuses (weather, injuries, mechanics, working on things, umpires etc.).
It isin’t encouraging at all that is struggling against Arizona hitters. He should have dominated this league of armatures, he is more advanced than any of them. Yet its the prospects from other teams who are mowing down the competition and Hughes is struggling. Disappointing.
And stop using the “he’s working on things” excuse. If that were the case, they would send him to Dominican instructs where he could work on things under the watchful eye of the organization in non-pressure situations. He is pitching in live game situations and on a team. They are clearly looking for results and he isin’t delivering.
Nick,
Speak plainly. Do you think Cash could have gotten Santana for a package that didn’t include Hughes (recalling that Minaya got him for Carlos Gomez and a bag of rocks)?
“Cashman had a GM crush on Hughes and the Steins didn’t want to pay Johan the money.”
Only half of that is true.
They are going to give Sabathia a record contract. They gave A-Rod 10 yrs. Posada 4. They are going to offer Tex a huge deal. They were dying to give Santana 140 mil.
The Cal Bears are working on things too. I’ll investigate in person tomorrow.
randyhater
October 25th, 2008 at 1:04 am
Cashman could have had Santana for a package that didn’t include include Hughes (ex. Kennedy, Melky, Marquez, Tabata) but he blanched over the money. That’s the bottom line.
We’d be playing for the title now if Stick was the GM instead of this overmatched son-of-a-Steinbrenner-friend.
__________________________________________________
How did the Mets finish with their ace? The Yanks scored 3 runs or less 9 times in Rasner’s starts that he didn’t have wins and in Ponson’s games it was 6 times. Which pitcher was Santana replacing? NYY wasn’t winning anything with a short staff and uneven offense.
Can we all take a deep breath here?
This is the Fall League. A league where he is working on pitches and not trying to dominate. Hes learning how to pitch.
Dont look at results here. Look that hes healthy.
randyhater: there is no evidence to prove that it is so, so why present a theory as a fact?
Obviously, any team that got Santana that was not the Yankees would have done so without including Hughes, so of course anything was possible. But what Bill Smith accepted from the Mets once the Yanks and Sox were both out of the running doesn’t mean he would have accepted a similar package from Cashman.
Guard
October 25th, 2008 at 1:44 am
G. Love – the last few lines of your post was spot on.
_______________________________________________________
The only spot Glove Lover ever has is from wetting his pants every time he posts.
Unless the Yanks totally blew the Mets offer away, he had little intention of trading Santana within the AL. As long as it was somewhat close, he was goingto be in the NL.
***he = Smith****
GreenBeret,
Neither Rasner nor Ponson was even an average starter. Santana was one of the best in the sport.
Replace the slop we got from them and Kennedy with Johan’s effort and we’re in the playoffs. You can’t possibly think otherwise.
“Unless the Yanks totally blew the Mets offer away, he had little intention of trading Santana within the AL. As long as it was somewhat close, he was goingto be in the NL.”
And anything with Hughes in it would have blown away the Mets offer.
If you don’t think they are in the playoffs with Santana you are nuts.
Rasner for Santana is not even worth talking about. And don’t give us NL-AL stuff. He dominated in the AL for years.
Still arguing about Santana?
How about following Bleich? 1 hit, 3 K in 2 innings so far.
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....8;env=prod
Nick & GreenBeret,
It’s silly to cling to the idea that Bill Smith (and other GM’s) take less from other teams to spite the Yankees.
They don’t.
Smith took the best offer for Santana that was available.
Cashman didn’t want him because of the money.
We’re on the outside looking in as a result.
randyhater
October 25th, 2008 at 2:01 am
GreenBeret,
Neither Rasner nor Ponson was even an average starter. Santana was one of the best in the sport.
Replace the slop we got from them and Kennedy with Johan’s effort and we’re in the playoffs. You can’t possibly think otherwise.
_________________________________________________
Santana wasn’t going to have a 2.60 ERA in the AL and certainly not in the AL East. If NYY couldn’t score runs, they weren’t going to win with Guidry or Koufax pitching.
“Cashman didn’t want him because of the money.”
That’s totally wrong. He didn’t make the trade because of the PROSPECTS and money. Why pay twice for a perspective FA? It wasn’t the money as we will see in 2 weeks. It was the inventory.
GB7,
Stop. People will start bringing up that the guys only get excited playing behind guys like Santana, Guidry, or Koufax.
And they pressed with guys like Ponson and Rasner, even though they did have some quality starts.
If the Yankees could blow the Mets out of the water, maybe Bill Smith should’ve done a better job of holding Cash’s interest?
randyhater
October 25th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Nick & GreenBeret,
It’s silly to cling to the idea that Bill Smith (and other GM’s) take less from other teams to spite the Yankees.
They don’t.
Smith took the best offer for Santana that was available.
Cashman didn’t want him because of the money.
We’re on the outside looking in as a result.
______________________________________________________
Get it straight…it was the cost in players and contract…not one or the other. Hopefully by next year, you’ll stop whining about that damned non-trade. It’s getting tiresome. He wasn’t making 9 games diffrence, anyway, and since the Yanks didn’t have the additional pitching or hitting to ge beyond the first round, they weren’t winning anything.
“Santana wasn’t going to have a 2.60 ERA in the AL and certainly not in the AL East. If NYY couldn’t score runs, they weren’t going to win with Guidry or Koufax pitching.”
If he had a 3.60 for us he wins 20+ games especially with our pen.
The Rays finished behind us in runs scored. It’s not offense. Haven’t you learned anything the past 7 years?
Smith wanted Hughes and prospects, and Wang at the last mintue. Of course, Cashman said HELL NO! Give it up already about Santana, it didn’t happen so move on.
I never said spite was a motive, but is it hard to understand that Smith would want more to trade Santana to an AL team? It’s naive to think that GM’s don’t care what teams, divisions, and leagues they trade players to.
Anyway, I’m not sure what your actual point is, if you have one, other than you don’t like Cashman and you’re bitter that Santana is a Met. There was a deal on that table that included Hughes in a package for Santana. Instead of taking it, Smith got greedy and the deal came off the table when Pettitte said he’d come back.
You’re correct that Smith took the best offer that was available, but only at the time he finally pulled the trigger.
“He wasn’t making 9 games diffrence, anyway, and since the Yanks didn’t have the additional pitching or hitting to ge beyond the first round, they weren’t winning anything.”
How do you know what happens in the playoffs? They couldn’t advance with Santana-Wang-Joba-Pettitte-Moose? Seems like a mighty fine staff.
“His awful AFL stint should just further affirm that he isin’t ready.”
I guess Eric Duncan’s AFL MVP should have assured him of the first base spot in the Bronx?
When will you guys learn that AFL stats mean nothing?
“Smith wanted Hughes and prospects, and Wang at the last mintue. Of course, Cashman said HELL NO! Give it up already about Santana, it didn’t happen so move on.”
Why should anyone move on? it will affect this franchise for decades. Aren’t we here to talk exactly about things like this?
I understand that this stuff takes time but can Phil Hughes some me something?
The main reason why the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs is that the Rays didn’t fade toward the end. The Rays are in, we were out.
We coulda been contenders, but the Rays crashed the party.
The offense was petrified, paralyzed, whatever you want to call it. They went through what the Phillies are going through. A sac fly here, a ground-out RBI there and games not blown in extra innings in tie games gets you in. Without Santana.
Yes, it’d be nice to have Santana, but he’s not coming. Yankee baseball goes on. Like it has for the last century.
Why not enjoy it?
Why should anyone move on? it will affect this franchise for decades. Aren’t we here to talk exactly about things like this?
the trade happened exactly 9 months ago, within 4 days. if Santana was acquired, we might be in the same situation. that was the last year’s offseason blockbuster trade, and now going to a new offseason. move on already!
The main reason why the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs is that the Rays didn’t fade toward the end. The Rays are in, we were out.
Correct. If it wasn’t for the Rays, we would be in the playoffs via Wild Card again.
GreenBeret,
I respect your old school ‘tude, but you watched the same games that I did.
Santana (as opposed to those 5+ era tomato cans) wouldn’t have made a half dozen game difference in the standings?
C’mon, bro. I know it’s futile to bellyache about it now, but an accurate accounting of the past is important if we’re going to move forward productively.
Cash f’ed up and needs to pull up his socks if we’re ever gonna reclaim our rightful palce at that the front of the line. Do you agree?
As long as you’re factual, I say talk it to death and beyond, Lance.
People realize that there’s more than one solution to the puzzle, right?
And teams have made it to the world series and won without Santana, right?
The Yankees are not doomed.
“The main reason why the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs is that the Rays didn’t fade toward the end. The Rays are in, we were out.”
The main reason is the Rays didn’t fade? Dealing with some boobs here. The main reason is the starting pitching stunk and the offense couldn’t overcome it. Even if the Rays faded we still finished 8 out. Open your eyes.
Nick,
Tried to pick for a parlay yesterday, I gave up. It hurt my head to factor in the spread.
mel, just to play devil’s advocate, your “why not enjoy it?” question sort of answers itself: because non-playoff Yankee baseball isn’t as enjoyable as the alternative.
“People realize that there’s more than one solution to the puzzle, right?
And teams have made it to the world series and won without Santana, right?
The Yankees are not doomed.”
But teams don’t win without good starting pitching. Check thru history. We didn’t win 4 titles the past 12 years because of “gamers” or heart or whatever. It’s because we sent a great pitcher out there each game.
We didn’t send 43 yr old broken down pitchers. We didn’t send out Jaret Wright. We didn’t have to move up a guy like Wang because we were short a starter.
We will be doomed if the pitching doesn’t get better.
Lance,
Did you just call me a boob?
Did we or did we not finish 6 games out of a playoff spot? Yes, we did.
If the Rays faded in the second half like they have in their whole existence, then they would finish behind us, no?
Have the Rays ever finished with a winning record? I have to look it up, but I’m pretty sure they haven’t.
That’s true, we need better pitching, but I can see see a brighter future on the horizon.
You do realize, Ed, that every move we make the next 5 years will be compared and contrasted with the non-Santana move.
You’re going to saying “move on” a ton if you can’t deal with it.
Nick,
Okay, but I’ll reiterrate my suggestion that people form a support group.
Or get some sort of closure.
I”f the Rays faded in the second half like they have in their whole existence, then they would finish behind us, no?
Have the Rays ever finished with a winning record? I have to look it up, but I’m pretty sure they haven’t.”
And if Papelbon blew out his elbow and Lackey and Santana didn’t pitch great and Hamels stunk and the Dodgers never got Manny and if the Mets got a closer and blah blah blah.
Give some credit. They won 97 games. This isn’t the same Rays that Lou managed. They got premium talent all over the place. Praying for a fade is hilarious.
You have to take care of business and that means pitching better.
Who had better starters this yr? Rays or us? Not even close and that’s why they won 97 games despite being near the btm in runs scored.
mel, Lance is correct that people will debate this non-trade for the length of Santana’s tenure with the Mets and beyond, but much more so if:
1) the Yanks don’t win a title without him during that time
and/or
2) Hughes doesn’t earn and keep a spot in the rotation
I’m not saying it’s right or it’s smart, but it’s inevitable.
That’s a solid line, huh pete?
Nick,
I’m not bitter than Santana is a Met. I’m bitter that he’s not a Yankee.
Bill Smith is the GM of the Twins. His job is to make the Twins profitable and a winner, in that order. Do you really think his employers want him to take less from the Mets than they would from the Yankees for a commodity they have for sale?
They don’t.
Did he overplay his hand? Probably so. But the fact remains that Cash could have had Santana in February for a prospect package that trumped the bag of rocks that the Mets offered, but he refrained because of the money. That pisses me off and any other Yankee fan should feel the same way.
You do realize, Ed, that every move we make the next 5 years will be compared and contrasted with the non-Santana move.
oh please. if the Yanks does succeeded signing Sabathia, people would be saying “Santana who?” Was I not happy that Cashman didn’t traded for Santana? Yes, I moved on when the trade didn’t happened. Santana wasn’t worth the money and prospects. The Mets got lucky that they have Santana. Humber was stuck in AAA till September call up, and Gomez is nothing but a 4th OFer, Smith was just too naive to send him down.
Well, Nick, it’s nice to know that I can at least have a civil conversation with you.
How can one post here and not realize that the Santana non trade will be debated for decades?
Cash gambled on Hughes. He just has to come thru or it’s a disaster. He doesn’t even have to match Santana. That would be impossible since we are talking about one of the best pitchers of the last decade. He just has to be a 2-3 starter and with his stuff he should be.
I saw what Cash was doing. Why trade prospects that we think are good for a guy who will be a FA in 12 months? I can wait 12 months and have a shot at him, CC, Sheets, etc for just money and keep my inventory.
I just hope and we all hope he bet right on Hughes.
randyhater sounds a lot like randyl.
“oh please. if the Yanks does succeeded signing Sabathia, people would be saying “Santana who?—
What would have precluded them from signing CC if they had Santana?
What would have precluded them from signing CC if they had Santana?
Santana’s contract. Signed six-year, $137.5 million contract w/2014 option and full NTC.
We should be glad that Boston didn’t offer Bucholz because Santana would be in Boston.
Beckett-Santana-Dice K-Lester
All under 30
randyhater, I’m not sure why this isn’t getting through to you: there was a package on the table that included Hughes; Smith tried to shop it to the Red Sox and tried to get more from Cashman. The deal came off the table when Pettitte said he’d return. Smith ended up coming back asking for a package that included Wang. Cashman said no.
If you’re suggesting that Bill Smith got the very best deal he could have gotten for Santana and there is no way he could have gotten more, we’re going to have to agree to disagree.
And if you’re going to suggest that all GM’s make trades without regard to division and league and, yes, personalities, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that too.
“What would have precluded them from signing CC if they had Santana?
Santana’s contract. Signed six-year, $137.5 million contract w/2014 option and full NTC.”
Seriously? These are the Yankees. They pay a AAA starter 5 mil and gave 26 to negotiate with him. They paid 40 mil to Pavano to watch him rehab. Etc Etc. They wouldn’t pay for 2 lefty aces in their primes to form a dominant rotation??
Really?
Lance
October 25th, 2008 at 2:26 am
“Smith wanted Hughes and prospects, and Wang at the last mintue. Of course, Cashman said HELL NO! Give it up already about Santana, it didn’t happen so move on.â€
Why should anyone move on? it will affect this franchise for decades. Aren’t we here to talk exactly about things like this?
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It’s going to affect the Yankees for decades? Good God, you’re overly dramatic, arn’t you? Sanata’s not going to pitch for “decades”. Talk about having to deal with “boobs” on this board, you’re the biggest of all.
Everyone knows Smith overplayed his hand considering there were only 3 teams with who he could deal. Any offer he would have taken from Bos or NYY would have been better than that dreck he got from the Mets. Anyone with a brain could see that Gomez was a Grade A hacker with no plate discipline. How the Twins didn’t insist on Pelfrey I’ll never know.
Lance
October 25th, 2008 at 3:01 am
We should be glad that Boston didn’t offer Bucholz because Santana would be in Boston.
Beckett-Santana-Dice K-Lester
All under 30
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Then trot over to a Boston board and rag them for not trading for Sntana, since Buchholtz did absolutely zero.
“It’s going to affect the Yankees for decades? Good God, you’re overly dramatic, arn’t you? Sanata’s not going to pitch for “decadesâ€. Talk about having to deal with “boobs†on this board, you’re the biggest of all.”
You do realize certain moves made or not made effect teams for a long time right? Or are we still not talking about Ruth being sold to us?
If the Mets win a title with Santana you can bet your boob butt we will be debating it for decades. If you can’t see that I have to question why you are posting here.
The Mets really made out. They didn’t give up enough to warrant a 72-hour window to negotiate an extension.
Smith should’ve taken the picks…
Smith screwed us twice.
Sabathia wants Santana-like contract. You telling me that you are willing to have 2 pitchers that wants a ridiculous contract? that’s 275 million altogether with ARod’s 10 year contract.
Green Beret you really are a grade A boob huh?
If you can’t have an intelligent conversation about the subject you should probably hold that little tongue of yours my man.
The only points you make are of the “shut up” and “move on” variety. Genius bud.
Sabathia wants Santana-like contract. You telling me that you are willing to have 2 pitchers that wants a ridiculous contract? that’s 275 million altogether with ARod’s 10 year contract.
Why not? Are you paying it? They don’t have the money? Or would you rather it be spread around to Pavano, Igawa, Farnsworth, Wright, Johnson, etc?
If you are going to spend 240 mil wouldn’t you want to have the two best leftys especially at Yankee Stadium?
And if the system is as good as all these people say it is what’s the problem?
Nick,
It’s well established that Smith came back to Cash in Feb., asked for Wang and Kennedy, and was rebuffed. What was Cash’s counter-offer, if any?
I’ve never seen it reported.
Here’s what I know: if Cash, in Feb., offered a package better or equal to the one that got the deal done for the Mets, we’d have heard about it. Fatmouth Hank would be screaming about the anti-Yankee conspiracy from a height.
The fact that he never did tells me that Cash folded his cards over the money. We’re out of the playoffs as a result.
GreenBeret,
I’m with you that “decades” is a little strong. But is “decade” out of the question?
If the Mets win a title with Santana your kids kids will be talking about the Santana thing.
That’s even if Hughes becomes great which is no sure thing.
There was never any counter offer once Pettitte reupped.
Cash didn’t want to trade any of his top level prospects. I do wonder if a Tabata-Kennedy package would have got it done back in Jan.
The joy of speculating.
randyhater, you’re confusing things you *think* with things you *know* — they’re not the same thing. Like I said before, you’re entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts.
If the Yanks hadn’t signed Petitte, they still would have been 2 starters short for more than half of the season. So Santana being traded wouldn’t have made a difference, if Petitte is the reason you give for YY not making the trade.
Nick,
It’s all speculation.
Do you believe that in Feb., Cash offered a package that a reasonable baseball person would value as superior to the one that the Twins took from the Mets?
Yes or no?
I believe that you’re right that a lot of this is speculation.
I have no idea if Smith would have taken a package from Cashman that was measurably inferior to the one that he could have taken but didn’t a few weeks earlier. It’s tricky to reject something worth 5X and then come back a few weeks later and ask for 5X again and then take something worth 3X from the same person. I don’t think it broke Smith’s heart to send Santana to Queens instead of to the Bronx or Boston. Smith screwed up.
Some of you are really, really retarded. Santana > Hughes. End of story.
Nick,
I agree with every single thing you wrote in your post from 3:39. But you haven’t answered my question.
Again, do you think that in Feb., Cash offered a package that a reasonable baseball person would value as superior to the one that the Twins took from the Mets?
Yes or no?
I don’t have an informed answer to the question. If Smith was asking for a package that included Wang at the end, Cashman might have reasonably concluded that there was no way they were going to get a deal done.
After Smith had the final offer from the Mets, did he try to get better from Cashman?
Football game for me tomorrow, goodnight.
Jeremy Bleich through 7.5 innings has a 10-2 lead. 7 innings, 5 hits, 2 runs, 2 earned runs, 1 walk, 8 strikeouts. 86 pitches, 58 strike, 28 balls. 2.55 ERA.
Hopefully, everyone will start talking about what a great pitcher he’s going to be. Stands to reason that he’s going to be great because of his Fall League numbers, since Hughes numbers are so bad that he can now officialy be declared a flop.
Nick,
Because Smith asked for Wang, Cash figured there was no point in even making a counter-offer?!?!
I think it’s clear that you agree with me. Smith took the best offer that was on the table in Feb. Cash didn’t want Santana because of the money and/or he tried to steal him for a bag of rocks.
Minaya outmaneuvered Cash and we are where we are as a result.
Here’s hoping Cash has learned from his mistakes.
Jeremy Bleich wins, 10-3. His numbers are 7 innings, 5 hits, 2 runs, 2 earned runs, 1 walk, 8 strikeouts. 86 pitches, 58 strike, 28 balls.
2.45 ERA and a record of 2-1. Teams are batting .220 and he has 9 walks and 22 strikeouts in 5 games covering 25.2 innings.
To all those who think not getting Santana, and or our pitching staff was the reason the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs.
Our pitching staff gave up 50 runs less in 08 than it did in 07. Believe it or not the 2008 pitching staff had the lowest Yankee team ERA since 2003. Conversely the offense scored 179 runs less than it did in 2007. As a matter of fact to find a Yankee team that scored fewer runs than the 2008 team you have to go all the way back to 1994/1995 and those were strike shortened seasons. Not acquiring Santana was not the reason the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs nor was it Rasner, and Ponson. It was because the Yankees had their worst offensive season in 14 years.
“Check thru history. We didn’t win 4 titles the past 12 years because of “gamers†or heart or whatever. It’s because we sent a great pitcher out there each game.”
Good idea, lets compare 2008 to the “Dynasty” championship seasons.
1996: Team ERA 4.65, Runs allowed 787
1998: Team ERA 3.82, Runs allowed 656
1999: Team ERA 4.13, Runs allowed 731
2000: Team ERA 4.76, Runs allowed 814
2008: Team ERA 4.49, Runs allowed 727
Nostalgia is great isn’t it? The myth that the Yankees had this absolutely lights out rotation during the Championship run is just that a MYTH. Only the ’98 team allowed fewer runs than this “terrible” rotation the Yanks put out this year. Everyone needs to stop blaming the pitching, and realize it isn’t what killed this season.
“Hughes is a rookie who missed a good portion of the year. Johan is a vet, who pitched very well down the stretch, but who also had his garbage starts, as EVERY SINGLE PITCHER DOES!!”
You’re making a point by comparing santana, who, pitching against major league pitching, had a couple of bad games, to Hughes pitching against minor league hitting.
Thank you. Needed a good laugh.
Nobody else has mentioned it, so I must be overlooking something obvious. I have read the post a dozen times , and I still can’t figure out how you can give up 2 home runs while allowing only 1 earned run. Please help.
Timmy Lupus:
You should know better than to bring actual reality to the debate, but thanks for the perspective.
prcleburne:
If an error allowed the HR hitter to come to the plate, that would be an unearned run. For example- 2 outs, nobody on. An error extends the inning. Any runs that follow would be unearned no matter how they occur.
Go G-Men ! !
http://www.thecatchhat.com
Sometimes this place is like a friggin laundramat with all the ladies bitching about the landlord for the umpteenth time…. please stop… PLEASE
No one “knows” what the final offer on Santana was and no one will know if it was the right decision until 2010. Obviusly making the deal was the right move short term.
But to try and make the point that Santana would not have made a significant difference this season is just dead wrong. Santana was 16-7, 2.53 in 34 starts. Ponson/Rasner were 9-14, 5.63 in 35 starts. Santana threw 50 more innings, but the Yankees tandem gave up 49 more earned runs. When you have an ace on the mound the defense is better, guys are more relaxed at the plate.
Even ignoring the potential positive effect on the rest of the team, his starts alone put the Yanks right up there with the Rays and Sawx.
Now can we get back to 2009?
Holliday is being shopped.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
my take, Holliday would be the perfect fit. Even better, if he were able to be extended
- upgrades the OF production (damon/gardner/holliday OR nady/damon/holliday)
- would give us the production of Texieria, yet we keep First base open in the future for veteran players and/or Montero etc
- from the ML level to A-ball, outfield is thinnest position in the NYY organization. Austin Jackson is the only prospect/player on the radar. Holliday would fill a desperate void
- Damon, Matsui, Nady, will all be free-agents next year. Who will be in the outfield??
offer Hughes in a package. Or, Cano.
Damon
Jeter
Arod
Holliday
Matsui
Blalock/Garko
Posada
Nady
Hudson
This time of year people get a little crazy with their trade proposals and ridiculous ideas.
I personally can’t wait for the World Series to be over so some moves can actually be made instead of having everyone speculate with their deals that make no sense.
Please leave Holliday in Colorado!!!
disregard above post (trading Cano)
the lineup would be too old. And back where we started from.
don’t trade Cano, unless it is for a young position player (Kemp).
in light of Hughes performance in the AFL, don’t know if Colorado would take Hughes as the center-piece in a Holliday trade.
Does it make it worse that Reddick is a top Sox prospect?
Believe me the Boston Socks are backed up with problems for 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y3ld9GpeNc
Jim the plumbers apprentice,
Thank you, I am now so much dumber after watching that.
I think I’ve seen it all now. People blaming Smith for us not having Santana.
Yeah it was all Smith’s fault, when Cashman had Kennedy, Melky, Horne, Tabata, Marquez, Mitch Hilligoss all untouchable.
99% of you wanted to keep Hughes, Melky and Kennedy. So anyone who’s got second thoughts now and blaming Smith is a complete Benedict Arnold.
Bottom line, Cashman vastly overrated Hughes, Kennedy, Melky, Matsui, Marquez, Horne making them all untouchable in the off season. The only person who should have been untouchable was Chamberlain.
It’s going to affect the Yankees for decades? Good God, you’re overly dramatic, arn’t you? Sanata’s not going to pitch for “decadesâ€. Talk about having to deal with “boobs†on this board, you’re the biggest of all.
——————————-
I’m wondering if Santana, our only hope of ever having won a World Series again, pitching sublimely into his 40s and 50s, will have built on his legendary postseason resume of one win.
And you people comparing Santana to Koufax, you are lost and you are obviously too young to have ever seen the latter.
Wow you people are stupid. Did anyone think that Johan was going to have a bad year in 2008? And no one thought that Hughes might struggle in his second year and first full year in the majors? Really, really? Did any of you notice John Danks this year, or perhaps Matt Garza, or maybe James Sheilds or Gavin Flloyd. Most pitchers stuggle a little first. Maybe if some of you watch the Yankees pre-1998 you would understand that winning isnt a divine right. Enough already. If you are going to evaluate trades based on one year and AFL league games you should stop watching baseball and definitely stop acting like you know what you are talking about.
Go Yanks!
lol @ this never ending Santana discussion.
i know a lot of people love hughes,including me but.what happens if we keep him and he doesn’t turn into a good pitcher?
why not consider trading him for a guaranteed centerfielder or first baseman.
i would try to trade hughes and ajax for kemp or another good young centerfielder.i would only do it if we can fix centerfield for sure and for a player that will lock the position down for a long time.with kemp or another good young centerfielder we wouldn’t need ajax.
i would also trade cano,kennedy and maybe another prospect or try to for adrian gonzalez or someone similar if possible.
hughes,ajax for kemp,cano,kennedy for adrian gonzalez,move jeter to second if needed and sign a shortstop or leave jeter at ss and sign a second baseman.
sign 3 free agent pitchers and keep drafting pitchers.
the yankees will get a lot of picks and have a good oportunity to draft a few good pitchers to replace hughes.
i don’t know if it would be smart to trade hughes or cano but if we get kemp,adrian gonzales doesn’t that improve them greatly?
if we can pull the trades off,hughes didn’t help the team at all in 2008 and gonzalez almost doubled cano’s production so the team would be much much better immediately.
Winter ball is proving again that at age 22 Hughes needs to a least start the season in Scranton.
The evidence is piling up proving what an incorrect decision it was by Cashman to annoint Phil last year. But that’s water under the bridge. The goal this season is to get this kid on track.
Cashman’s error has to make it more of a mental challenge than it should have been. It has to be frustrating for Hughes to not deliver to the level of expectation he had.
If Phil could just be given the chance to work his way up to the majors at his own pace and only be expected to win 10 – 12 games when he gets there, he’d be better off.
This Phil Franchise stuff doesnt help. Right now, the kid is a very average pitcher.
Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
October 24th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
If it turns out that it was Isiah, and he tried to deflect, I don’t know what to think.
mel Isiah is a prolific liar, manipulator and a conartist. I hope he didn’t deflect it to his daughter so he could save face because then I would just add miserable human being to his cons.
————————————————————
that is exactly what it sounds like he is doing and you are right about him.
he would do it to save his reputation,future jobs and money.
You do realize certain moves made or not made effect teams for a long time right? Or are we still not talking about Ruth being sold to us?
If the Mets win a title with Santana you can bet your boob butt we will be debating it for decades. If you can’t see that I have to question why you are posting here.
—————————————————————–
As a Yankee fan, I am focused on 2009. The absolute LAST consideration for me – read: no consideration – is whether the hapless Mets manage to win a championship during Johan Santana’s tenure with that team.
Really.
the police said it was a 47 year old male and i believe i am now hearing that he is saying it was his daughter?
his daughter is 47 yrs old?
how did it go from a 47 year old male being him to his daughter???
something sounds fishy.
bodhisattva
October 25th, 2008 at 9:41 am
And you people comparing Santana to Koufax, you are lost and you are obviously too young to have ever seen the latter.
____________________________________________________________
Below is whay I typed. There is nothing in there that was comparing Santana to Guidry or Koufax.
———————————————————
Santana wasn’t going to have a 2.60 ERA in the AL and certainly not in the AL East. If NYY couldn’t score runs, they weren’t going to win with Guidry or Koufax pitching.
______________________________________________________
I saw more than enough of Sandy Koufax. Please read enough what I said.
Al from BK( Fit CC for pinstripes. This team is not far off.)
October 24th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Hate to bring this up, but Johan/Phil is looking terrible right now. Can’t turn back time
——————————————————————
No, it’s not looking terrible, because Hughes is still 22, and the starts in the AFL don’t carry some huge siginificance. Santana didn’t get his team to the postseason. We would have been there, for what it would have been worth, if Wang & Joba hadn’t gone down. Would we have won anything? Probably not, because we have BIGGER issues than just pitching – like an outfield that is so bad, especially had you removed Cabrera and had Damon in there, it would not have even mattered who was pitching, because flyouts would have turned into gappers, trust me.
Also, Santana’s disquieting trend of giving up HRs to lefties would have been a bigger issue in the loaded AL, not to mention that a park that is supposed to favor left-handed pitching could have become a disadvantage. Now combine THAT with the worst outfield in baseball, and it’s doubtful that your recipe is World Series Nirvana
BUT: if you must have your masochistic fantasies, who am I to try and deprive you.
Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…â€Don’t trade Robi !â€
October 24th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
If it turns out that it was Isiah, and he tried to deflect, I don’t know what to think.
mel Isiah is a prolific liar, manipulator and a conartist. I hope he didn’t deflect it to his daughter so he could save face because then I would just add miserable human being to his cons.
_____________________________________________________
I think this is just another injury lie fed to the media by Girardi. Can’t trust that guy.
“hughes,ajax for kemp,cano,kennedy for adrian gonzalez,move jeter to second if needed and sign a shortstop or leave jeter at ss and sign a second baseman.”
Is this Satire?
“I saw more than enough of Sandy Koufax. Please read enough what I said.”
———————————————————-
Yes, sorry, you didn’t technically compare them. The comparison, I suppose, suggested itself to me, because you chose two great lefthanders, so the association was made for me. My apologies if that wasn’t in your thought. And I don’t want to imply that Santana ISN’T a great lefthander, by the way, but Koufax points up a whole different context of “great” that Santana can’t share space in.
Wow, I didn’t realize that Mickey Mantle was essentially “done” at the age of 33.
I guess injuries and his lifestyle wrecked his body….
http://www.baseball-reference......mi01.shtml
Has everyone seen the new guitar hero ad with Arod?? Hilarious!
Hughes/Santana trade talk?
I feel as if we´ve gone beyond beating a dead horse on that one. Now it´s pulpified and going through the grinder. It´s almost a year ago now. We may need our own moveon.org or support group to get over it.
What’s up with all of the “sky-is-falling” talk around here?
The Yankees won 89 games with Rassner and Ponson pitching in 1\4 of the games the Yankees played this past season.
Posada played in 51 games. Matsui in 93. Jeter in 150 (and was hurt all year). Arod in 138. Damon in 143. Wang only made 15 starts. Joba missed time too.
People don’t like to talk about injuries and use them as an excuse, but, I think the Yankees will be better next year IF they can stay healthy.
If we take a Holiday, it would be so nice!
Just ask Afraud’s girlfriend.
lol.
i get it
So, speaking of girlfriends, Tom Brady has a staff infection. No wonder, with all the tramps he shacks up with.
Oh, wait, I just re-read the story. It’s a STAPH infection. My fault, disregard.
Johan’s stats weren’t that impressive in the minors his first 3 years ..Houston didn’t protect him in the Rule 5 Draft. Marlins picked him up and turned around and traded him to the Twins. Do you think those teams might be sorry that they gave up on him so soon? Santana finally came into his own in 2003 at the age of 24.
http://minors.baseball-referen.....?pid=27690
The impatience by Yankee fans is remarkable and of course if Phil gets traded and wins a Cy in the next 5 years a sudden case of amnesia will appear and those same people advocating a trade will be complaining about the fact that he was traded and what a stupid move by Cashman.
Johan is a veteran with years of service …Hughes is 22 in the minors. How do you even make a comparison? Hopefully Phil reaches his stride by 24 like many pitchers…
You can’t have your cake and eat it too…it takes patience to develop young players.
Go Yankees 2009 !!!!
CASHMAN WAS IN A VERY DIFFICULT POSITION.
IT IS EASY TO LOOK BACK AND COMPARE NUMBERS NOW.
KENNEDY AND HUGHES BOTH PITCHED WELL FOR A LITTLE STRETCH AND HE DIDN’T WAN’T TO GIVE BOTH OF THEM UP in addition to tabata and marquez wich is understandable.
hughes is 22 yrs old and needs many more innings under his belt for anyone to determine how good he is going to be.
the way he pitched in the past and now means almost nothing.
it is how he adjusts going forward and learns to master his pitches and learns new ones that will determine his fate.
i would however consider trading him for a pitcher,centerfielder,first baseman but it has to absolutely be the right fit and i don’t know if that is possible right now.
pitchers usually take a certain amount of time before they settle in.one thing is for sure.hughes does not have enough innings in to compete on the major league level quite yet.
i would love to have adrian gonzalez at first base so we don’t have to spend 20 million a year on tex.
we need to be patient and make the right moves and not just make a move for the sake of it.
maybe a stopgap first baseman and centerfielder is the way to go until we make the right move or wait until next years free agents are available.
Tom,
If Mantle had taken care of himself he might have hit 700 homers.
Yankees would have been a 1st round casualty with Santana even if they got to the postseason again.
I agree with cashman in that in order to get the Franchise focused in the right direction, they have to try to develop their own young arms to fill in their pitching staff.
All the guys that Yankee fans want to buy up in free agency started out as prospects for someone. Isn’t it high time that the Yankees themselves tried to–oh I don’t know–develop their own young pitching?
Yankee fans say they have grown tired of all the age on the team and yearning back for the championship core of Bernie and Jeter and Posada and Andy and Rivera. But you don’t have the patience to wait do you? Of course you don’t. You’re spoiled, petulent, irrational and think your team can take the easy way to success.
Here’s a newsflash for ya. Guys like Tim Lincecum and Edinson Volquez and and Brandon Webb and other great young starters are rare. Most of the time, believe it or not, you have to have patience to cultivate your own good players. It takes time.
And all of you who claim that you want your own young great players are full of it. Those Yankee teams in the 90s were lucky because all the core players came up and became great all at the same time. In reality, it doesn’t happen that way.
As a GM and as an organization, Cashman and the Yankees have to be willing to take the slings and arrows from clueless yahoos like you guys and from sports talk show hoots and self-proclamied experts who think they know everything.
If you want a quick fix and a ready-made championship team and trying to sign the same players who have played their best baseball for other teams and signing them to absurd contracts, you are gonna see the Yankees wallow in the same relative mediocrity they have been in since 2005.
If you honestly believe that building up their own great starters and position players is the right way to go, then you are going to realize that it isn’t gonna be easy and it isn’t gonna be so quick this time around.
And the fact that people are willing to give up on a 22 year old starting pitcher with AT LEAST above average stuff makes me want to hurl. You people have no perspective or foresight AT ALL.
Is there any evidence that Minnie would have given us Santana even if we gave them 5 of the best prospects in the league/outbid every other team in baseball? Maybe Minnie had no intention of trading Santana to a perennial playoff team. There is also no indication that we even have any good prospects worth looking at. The Yankees always make it sound like every team is always dying to give us their best players and every FA is always dreaming of the Yankees but there may be players and teams for whom that is not the case.
In order to move on from the Santana non-trade of last year, how about we find out what the Mets want for Santana this off season.
Braintrust, I know. I’m 28 so my Yankee memories begin with Mattingly and the late 80s teams.
I was aware of the Mick’s greatness (my Dad, like so many others, worshiped him).
I just never really sat down and looked at his stats. To see that his last great season was at the age of 32 blew my mind.
He looked really old in that video when he hit his 500hr. He was the same age as Jeter is now…
back bench
Very droll,
It would take a lot more than Hughes, Kennedy, Tabitha and Marquez
Yankees Say They Would Have Left Bronx if Pushed
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10.....ref=slogin
Randy Levine, the president of the Yankees, told a Congressional hearing Friday that if the city had not issued tax-exempt financing for the team’s new stadium, it would have left town. “It’s been no secret for many years” that the team would move if it could not save tens of millions of dollars on financing with tax-free bonds, Levine told the House subcommittee on domestic policy. He added: “There was no shortage of suitors. We see ourselves as a paradigm in professional sports.” Levine refused to be specific about the other suitors, but when asked after the hearing if New Jersey has wooed the Yankees in recent years he said, “Absolutely!”
back bench are you serious? you think the mets would consider trading santana away to anyone, much less the yankees?
ton/braintrust– i became a yankee fan in 1965, so i only had mantle’s last years as a memory, but there was great stretch during 1966 where he was really hot. that’s what i remember when i think of mantle. i agree that he could have been so much better over a longer period if he had taken care of himself. it’s such a shame. when mantle was falling apart, mays still had a few good years left, and they both started at about the same time.
why am i confused by this post of yours Pete? First you say “Phil Hughes pitched three innings in the Rising Stars game in Arizona, allowing one earned run.” then you go on to say he gave up 2 home runs with a line of 3 3 4 1 2 3.
what am i missing here? 2 seperate games?
You know Levine is lying when he opens his mouth to speak. I don’t know what his benefit is over there. The Steinbrenners like him for some unknown reason. In retrospect, I don’t think the Yankees ever really considered going anywhere else for about the past 10 years or so.
Flip, if runs score after errors are committed plus two outs, everything that comes after is unearned.
Baseball 1-2-3
Flip:
there was an error that led to 3 unearned runs.
TOTAL BS!! It is all about money!!
The Yankees always used the threat of leaving to get what they wanted.
They did it in the early 70s to get the stadium re-done. And they used it here to get a new stadium built.
Sorry I even started this honestly its in the past. Here are the facts: Johan Santana is a top 5 major league starter with a Cy Young award and a huge contract. Hughes is 22, and has thus far underachieved and been injured on a regular basis. He has shown brief flashes of dominance and effectiveness. However he is still not a top of the rotation starter and Santana is. Until Hughes becomes a solid major league starter/or we acquire a bonified Ace(hopefully in CC) these talks will not go away. The Yanks should be under scrutiny here, they decided to hold onto an assortment of prospects(Hughes/Melky/IPK/Marquez) that were all terribly ineffective or injured this year. Santana had a tremendous year with very little run support and even less bullpen support having at least a handful of games blown for him by the pen. This non-trade like or not will define Cashman’s tenure as a GM which is why he was so “feisty” and defensive at his press conference. He knows that he stuck his neck out for a bunch of players and those players did absolutely nothing this year and unfortunately for Cash it is his attachment to those players that was his flaw. This however can be healed if he brings in a starter comparable if not superior to Johan in CC Sabathia. This trade will be lost in memory if CC is wearing pinstripes on April 6th next year.
“The Yankees always used the threat of leaving to get what they wanted.”
Something to keep in mind for the fans who complain that players are disloyal when they take the best deal during free agency. It’s all about business.
Even if Cash had been somehow able to do the unthinkable and pass off 3 of our worst scrubs to Minnie in exchange for Santana, I’d still agree with his decision to pass on Santana. Just out of principle, why should they pay in prospects and cash when they should be able to wait a year and just pay in cash? Furthermore, didn’t Santana have an NTC and didn’t he have to willingly sign the long term deal? If he wanted to go to the Yankees, he had the leverage to get there. And if he wanted to go to the Yankees but ended up with the Mets, then his agent Greenburg must be one of the stinkiest agents in baseball. But my guess is the purpose of such a trade on Minnies part was to prevent Santana from goign to the Yankees.
Here are the facts ..Johan was 24 once he started on the road to success…he had his problems in the minors and first seasons in the majors too. It takes time and patience with young pitchers…something Yankee fans seem to lack. I submitted another post earlier regarding this but as usual it never was posted…I seem to always have a problem with posting on this blog.
I don’t even know if this will post ..lol.
All I am saying is give Phil a chance …he’s 22 !!!!!
Go Yankees 2009!!!
Actually I seem to have the posting problem if I do it through AOL..when I use Foxfire it seems to go through???
Go Yankees 2009!!!
“Here are the facts ..Johan was 24 once he started on the road to success…he had his problems in the minors and first seasons in the majors too. It takes time and patience with young pitchers…something Yankee fans seem to lack. I submitted another post earlier regarding this but as usual it never was posted…I seem to always have a problem with posting on this blog.
I don’t even know if this will post ..lol.
All I am saying is give Phil a chance …he’s 22 !!!!!
Go Yankees 2009!!!”
Phil’s stuff is not even close to Johan. Johan in his younger years was in the pen where he featured his filthy slider and one of the best changeups in the game, he also threw 97 mph back then. Phil only has one out pitch and a mediocre fastball Johan was always better than Hughes even when he was young.
Um.. This is from MLBTradeRumors re Santana trade. It was after Johan was traded.
“The Twins tried to re-engage the Yankees Monday night, calling and asking, again, for Hughes to be in a package. The Yankees said no, and the Twins then asked, instead, for Chien-Ming Wang and Ian Kennedy, and the Yankees said no.
This differs from Bob Klapisch’s take yesterday. Klapisch said the Twins’ last-ditch proposal to the Yankees was for Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera, and a top prospect.
Regardless, the Yankees preferred to enter the ’08 season with Wang, Andy Pettitte, Phil Hughes, and Joba Chamberlain in the rotation. Kennedy and Mike Mussina will compete for the fifth spot.”
Seems it seems that the Yankees were unwilling to trade anyone for Santana.
The Hughes for Santana talk is crap. Please stop.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....ed-wa.html
Tom -
It’s never, ever, ever going to stop. I’m choosing to ignore any further Hughes/Santana conversations. You can’t change any one’s mind. Even by citing facts, people will insist those are the “real” facts. The only thing that will stop it is if Santana either gets injured, Phil Hughes rises to superstardom by the all-star break in 2009, or Santana takes a quick dive to oblivion.
I know we’re beating a dead horse re: Johan…but I like to pretend the dead horse is really GB7 aka Colonel “You need me on that wall” Nathan Jessup and then I can never get tired of incessantly beating that old nag.
That said, if Cashman had put Hughes, Melky, Tabata, Marquez (or IPK) on the table, Johan would be in Pinstripes.
Outside of Hank pushing for the deal at the winter meetings, the Yankees led by Cashman never wanted to deal for Johan.
It’s over and done with, but Phil Hughes will always be the focal point to why we didn’t make that trade because the GM of the Yankees (and ownership) made him the focal point.
Who was selling and designing “Generation Trey” shirts/posters last season? It wasn’t the parking lot vendors. Someone in this organization clearly bought into the hype and tried to market it.
At this point, I’d rather keep Hughes unless we need to deal him for a young stud position player or starter.
The Yankees didn’t want to give up minor league talent and pay Johan — I understand that. But what guarantee is there now that a guy like CC will take the Yankee money.
You had a chance to get Johan and lock him up before he hit free agency.
If the Yankees whiff on CC and whiff on AJ this off season, then last years decision is even more magnified.
Phil Hughes is not yet a major league ready starting pitcher. All of the prospect huggers in here can tell themselves he’s going to be great in 3 years, but until that day comes around he’s still a prospect who hasn’t proved anything on a team made up of win now veterans.
If he comes around in 3 years just as Mo, Posada, Jeter walk off into the sunset and Arod begins to decline, I hope he can pitch to a 1.00 era and win 20 a season to justify this faith that the GM put in him because that is the kind of pressure that is on this kid.
Some of you fans look at him and see a cute cuddly homegrown boy and some of us look at him and see Santana, CC, Haren types not being in pinstripes for him.
It’s the difference between the fan that understands the core of this team is a win now core and the GM should support and the fan who doesn’t care if they make the playoffs as long as they have some new cute puppies to pet and root for as they try to learn how to walk down the stairs.
When Wang and Cano came up there was little to no hype. None of us knew what they would do. They were in season call ups who performed (healthy I might add) and earned their jobs and the respect of the fan.
Phil Hughes hasn’t done that yet. He’s still a lot of wishing and hoping and projecting.
I’m not against young players on the roster — I like when they come up and do well…but when we sacrifice the needs of them team right now for the needs of the team 3 years from now, I don’t like that.
Not all fans can be as “above it all” to sit back and watch the team get beat and be happy talking about “well in 2010 we’ll be powerhouse”…I hope you’re right. I don’t have that kind of faith in prospects since I’ve seen more of them spit the bit than turn out like Joba.
Too bad about Bowa. Never really expected him back as I assumed his loyalty was to Torre and not the Yankees, but it would have been nice. He’s been an NL guy pretty much all his baseball career anyway.
My point is for the majority of pitchers it takes a few years before they come into their own. Phil was rushed and too much put on his young shoulders. Giambi giving him the NEXT Roger Clemens tag certainly didn’t help. Who knows what lies ahead in 2 years?? Unless you exercise patience you will never find out. Fortunately for the Yankees they can afford to be patient since they have the resources to bulk up the team in other ways.
After 3 seasons in the minors Houston left Santana off the 40 man roster leaving him open for the draft..not protecting him. Too bad they didn’t exercise a little patience with him too. I bet they wished they had but maybe they couldn’t afford too.
Keyword with young players is PATIENCE for at least a few years especially if they were highly touted by scouts.
Go Yankees 2009
**** Edit ****
I’m sorry – people will insist they ARE NOT the “real” facts.
“The only thing that will stop it is if Santana either gets injured, Phil Hughes rises to superstardom by the all-star break in 2009, or Santana takes a quick dive to oblivion.”
Truth is you don’t get your real answer on this for another 5 years. Despite Year 1 being a huge win for the “Trade for Santana” crowd, Years 2-6 are still very much up in the air.
G. Love -
I understand your point of view. But at some point, if you’re going to make a decision to develop your own pitching, you make a decision to stick with the prospects. A lot of things went wrong with the Hughes scenario, and he should never have been called up initially. They should have sent up almost anyone else two seasons back. But you can’t undo what’s been done.
I would not have objected (though I would have been a little disappointed to see him go) to Hughes being included in a deal for Santana. But it seemed to me at the time that the Twins kept asking for more and you can’t give up everything in the farm PLUS FREE AGENT MONEY for one guy – basically paying twice – even if that guy is Johan Santana.
What’s done is done, and can’t be undone. No amount of b-ing and moaning is going to help. You hope the Yankees move forward, and you hope they can sign a couple of good FA pitchers this off-season, or make a really cool under-the-radar trade.
Ok …I’m going with the IT’S OVER crowd. This Santana/Hughes discussion/debate/whatever has gone on too long especially since nothing is going to change until as Doreen put it …Santana gets injured or fades away, Hughes wins a Cy or both.
I go on record as wanting to give Hughes a chance ..at least for another year or two but just like everyone else on here it doesn’t matter what we want …it’s up to the Yankees to do what they feel best. I hope they do …
Go Yankees 2009 !!
Also, I don’t believe that any single one of the guys named in the permutations of the Santana trade was an untouchable(Chamberlain was always an untouchable). I believe it was the combination(s) that made the deal undoable, and then subsequently, Hughes was taken off the (any) table. Kennedy, Melky, never were untouchable. I believe, though, that once Mike Cameron was snatched up, it became problematic for Melky to be in any deal because they would have to scramble for a CF.
Anyway, that’s how I understood things.
Fredo -
I hope you’re right about the time frame. But that just means that for the next 2-6 years, this is going to be a repeat topic here. Perhaps we could come up with some shorthand for it?
Doreen:
Sadly, on something like this, the answers tend to be a long time in coming. Sort of like an NFL draft. Hard to tell how well a team actually did til 3-4 years down the road. Lot can happen. If the Yankees land Sabathia for Santana money AND Hughes can become a solid contributor, then the “Keep Phil Hughes” people win the argument. If they don’t get Sabathia but Hughes is a consistent 15-16 game winner from 2010-2013, that too favors the Keep Hughes people in my opinion, even if Santana continues to pitch well because the Yankees would be getting more bang for the buck.
Johan was 24\25 when he becane a full time starter.
Phil is 22. it’s rare for a pitcher to come up at such a young age and dominate as a starter.
G Love nailed it again.
By the time Hughes develops his secondary pitches, ARod and Jeter will close to the end of the road. Then you’re shopping for position players and you’ve wasted the core that was in win now mode.
As much as everyone likes hyping Austin Jackson, lets be honest what he is. He’s a guy who hit .285 with limited power in AA last year. But from the nicknames and chatter around here, you would have thought he was Colby Rasmus or Jay Bruce.
The best situation this off season is to trade Hughes and Kennedy for a top position player prospect. Whether it be someone like Rasmus, Laporta, or another big hitting prospect who can rake. Then you sign a bunch of those free agent pitchers and you start to fix all the problems at once, instead of waiting arournd for Phil Hughes to become something, and he may never be anything. He may just be another Mark Prior who gets injured every year.
I don’t know what the plan was for Phil in this particular game, but young pitchers seem to go much shorter now. 3 innings? He is a starting pitcher, he needs to be getting used to going 7 or more. It isn’t just this start, it is common all over the minors. Starters will go 4 or 5, almost never past the sixth; then they come up to the majors and it is a big shock that nobody can get through 7 innings anymore. They are conditioned that way!
mark it was an all star game and even in the regular AFL games pitchers usually dont go more than 5 just because the rosters are big…in triple A double etc etc..they go as long as they can unless otherwise instructed due to some reason
“The Twins tried to re-engage the Yankees Monday night, calling and asking, again, for Hughes to be in a package. The Yankees said no, and the Twins then asked, instead, for Chien-Ming Wang and Ian Kennedy, and the Yankees said no.
This differs from Bob Klapisch’s take yesterday. Klapisch said the Twins’ last-ditch proposal to the Yankees was for Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera, and a top prospect.
That’s you source Bob Klapisch ? Ofcourse since he was the first NY beatwriter roasted all over the media. His report was false, Olney, Gammons even Heyman said that was untrue, Lavelle E. Neal The Twins beatwriter said the Twins source didn’t make any attempt for that type of deal, there were 4 constant names Jose Tabata, Philip Hughes+IPK, Wang and Cano. The Twins then balked at the Red Sox offer and Cash/Hank/Hal/Yankees FO ended negotiations there.
Klapisch’s source was partially right but wrong completely wrong on the parts of the deal.
Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera, and a top prospect
Never was the deal.
“This differs from Bob Klapisch’s take yesterday. Klapisch said the Twins’ last-ditch proposal to the Yankees was for Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera, and a top prospect”
I don’t believe this. This was never reported. And 9 months later this ‘scoop’ comes out of thin air. Unless the top prospect was Joba Chamberlain, i don’t believe it.
I’m sure this is a stupid question, but can someone tell me how Hughes can give up two home runs, yet only have one earned run?
Ralphie,
Okay, that explains this game, but it is still common across the board that the minor league starters are not conditioned to go deeper into games. If they are trying to hold down innings, I would think that shutting them down would be more effective towards development than limiting the innings per start.
MJL,
You’re right, it is a stupid question. j/k
There was probably an error with 2 outs that extended the inning. Therefore, everything after is unearned, no matter how it scored.
Ok, I understand going to mlbtraderumors.com for “facts” like “Yankees need starting pitching. CC Sabathia is a FA starting pitcher. Peter Gammons thinks Manny Ramirez will ask for too much money.” But if you are going to mlbtraderumors.com for “facts” like “Cashman and GMx had agreed to trade prospect Y for a Cy Young award winning pitcher z, but then GMx got greedy and wanted prospect Q, too. Everyone knows that players Y and Q are the best prospects scouts have ever seen and will eventually have the lowest career EQRA ever and win 25 batting titles,” then you have some serious problems.
Ah but of course. Thank you.
You’d think they know that.
“I don’t believe this. This was never reported. And 9 months later this ’scoop’ comes out of thin air. Unless the top prospect was Joba Chamberlain, i don’t believe it.”
Here’s the original article. Notice the date.
http://www.northjersey.com/spo.....ntana.html
His report was rebuked by many outlets. It happens. Bob Klapisch was wrong.
“His report was rebuked by many outlets. It happens. Bob Klapisch was wrong”
is there a link?
People the Yankees are entertainment. Their job is to sell tickets and keep the Yes Network going. Winning championships is secondary other than how it affects these two. So how are the Yankees doing? Very well Thank You. They’re managed to turn a one product show into a multi billion franchise. They have sold out for a few years and built a huge new complex. All without winning a thing and knowing they wouldn’t. It’s all hype and marketing and the financial bottom line. All this Hughes/Santana stuff is more grist for the mill. Net worth for the Yankees keeps going up. How much talk is there about a pretty good World Series?
Did you see the article “Yankees played a big hand in global warming?” Apparently Hank wanted to stop global warming, but Cash didn’t think it was the best use of the Yankees latest scientific research.
Mr Anderson
October 25th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Yankees would have been a 1st round casualty with Santana even if they got to the postseason again.
I agree with cashman in that in order to get the Franchise focused in the right direction, they have to try to develop their own young arms to fill in their pitching staff.
All the guys that Yankee fans want to buy up in free agency started out as prospects for someone. Isn’t it high time that the Yankees themselves tried to–oh I don’t know–develop their own young pitching?
Yankee fans say they have grown tired of all the age on the team and yearning back for the championship core of Bernie and Jeter and Posada and Andy and Rivera. But you don’t have the patience to wait do you? Of course you don’t. You’re spoiled, petulent, irrational and think your team can take the easy way to success.
Here’s a newsflash for ya. Guys like Tim Lincecum and Edinson Volquez and and Brandon Webb and other great young starters are rare. Most of the time, believe it or not, you have to have patience to cultivate your own good players. It takes time.
And all of you who claim that you want your own young great players are full of it. Those Yankee teams in the 90s were lucky because all the core players came up and became great all at the same time. In reality, it doesn’t happen that way.
As a GM and as an organization, Cashman and the Yankees have to be willing to take the slings and arrows from clueless yahoos like you guys and from sports talk show hoots and self-proclamied experts who think they know everything.
If you want a quick fix and a ready-made championship team and trying to sign the same players who have played their best baseball for other teams and signing them to absurd contracts, you are gonna see the Yankees wallow in the same relative mediocrity they have been in since 2005.
If you honestly believe that building up their own great starters and position players is the right way to go, then you are going to realize that it isn’t gonna be easy and it isn’t gonna be so quick this time around.
And the fact that people are willing to give up on a 22 year old starting pitcher with AT LEAST above average stuff makes me want to hurl. You people have no perspective or foresight AT ALL.
Great Post!
what happened to that phanton 94-95 mph fastball? oh thats right, it was a myth.
Mark in Tampa-
That was a pretty obnoxious answer.The question was not unreasonable ; several others have asked it, and the answers given were both informative and given in a respectful manner. I didn’t have a dog in this fight ( World Series ), but since you are from Tampa, let me say :
Go Phillies !