Hot Stove Mailbag No. 4
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- October
- 28
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Rachel writes: What do you think about the Yankees signing Doug Mientkiewicz to play first, or at least platoon? I thought when he was on the team a couple of years ago that it was worth dealing with the slightly below-average offensive production for the fantastic defense he provided. The way he went all-out on every play was something we didn’t see much of this past year from most of the Yankees players, and something I was hoping (expecting?) from a Girardi-led squad. Also is there anything the Yankees can get for Wilson Betemit?
Answer: Rachel, I was a big supporter of Doug when he was here. But I do believe his time has come and gone, at least as far as the Yankees are concerned. He was a part-time player for a bad Pirates team last season and that should tell you something. The Yankees can do better at first. As for Betemit, he has little to no trade value. His one skill is that he occasionally hits a home-run off a lefty. But he’s otherwise pretty useless as a player given that he can’t run, field, throw or hit for average. They should just non-tender him.
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Anthony writes: I was informed a few days a go by a friend of mine who works in the NY Yankee organization that he was told by several of Manny Ramirez’s family members who he personally knows that Manny wants very much to sign a four-year deal to play for the Yankee’s next year. He wants to finish his career and play for the one team he grew up with. It will not be all about the money.
Answer: So let me get this straight, Manny Ramirez dumped his agent, hired Scott Boras then sulked his way out of Boston (and two $20 million options) and it will not be all about the money. That makes perfect sense. But let’s say Manny does want to play for the Yankees. Why would the Yankees want him? They have greater needs than a left fielder. And any team that signs Manny for four seasons is crazy.
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David writes: What are the chances that the yankees sign two free agent pitchers if Andy Pettitte actually comes back? Now that Jake Peavy is no longer a viable option, who should the Yankees focus on?
Answer: The Yankees clearly need to acquire two starters via trade or free agency. I believe the Yankees should (and will) focus on CC Sabathia. A.J. Burnett and Ben Sheets are too risky in my estimation but they seem interested in Burnett. Somebody like Derek Lowe would make more sense. I suspect you’ll see a trade bring back a starter before the winter is over.
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Rich writes: Do the Yankees embrace the team thing? A-Rod just getting his numbers doesn’t sound like a team thing to me. The past Yankee winners did seem to be a team.
Answer: When a team wins, they look like a team. When a team loses, they look selfish. I don’t think it’s fair to pin it on Alex. That said, the incentive clauses based on his chasing down Barry Bonds were a bad idea. When Hank and Hal went back on their promise and caved in to Alex last year, it sent a terrible message.
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Nora writes: I have even a dumber question then the spitting one from the last mailbag. Why do a lot of the managers wear their jackets in the dugout when it’s over 70 on the field? Take Joe Torre, he wore one during the playoffs and it wasn’t that cold in LA was it? I could never figure it out, but you may know the answer.
Answer: Joe Torre is 68 and he gets cold. He’s an old man. Seriously, this is a great baseball mystery. Former A’s and Mets pitching coach Rick Peterson used to wear a jacket every day, even when it was 100. I think some baseball guys just like wearing jackets. It may be hot but they think they look cool I suppose.
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Gifford writes: Do you think the Yankees can afford to spend a good amount more than their 2008 payroll? If they drop $86 million in payroll, have triple the luxury suites in the new stadium, and a higher luxury tax threshhold, could they handle adding $100-125 million back in payroll? If so, can’t they afford all their free agents needs plus some more?
Answer: In theory, sure. But in practice, it’s unlikely. The Yankees finished last season with a payroll of roughly $220 million. I can’t see them going above that and it’ll probably be below. The plunging stock market has to have hurt the Steinbrenner family fortune. They also put out a lot of scratch to build the new Stadium. George Steinbrenner spent money wildly in pursuit of championships and his own legacy. His sons are younger men who have children, one ex-wife apiece and other commitments. They don’t figure to be as casual with the checkbook.
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Chris writes: It’s obvious that the Yankees could use a good deal of help in the starting rotation. What are the chances they’ll take a flyer on a former highly thought of guy through free agency, such as Mark Prior, Gustavo Chacin, or Horacio Ramirez?
Answer: The Yankees need guys they can count on, not rehab cases. I can see them giving somebody like that a minor-league contract. But don’t expect much. Beyond that, they already have Eric Milton and Victor Zambrano in the rehab pipeline.
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Miel writes: What do you think the Yankees will do, and what do you think the Yankees should do, about the Hideki Matsui/Jorge Posada situation? There is no way to know whether either one will even be able to be productive at DH, much less 1B or LF/C. Is it wise to leave 1B and/or DH open for them?
Answer: Matsui had arthroscopic surgery to repair a cartilage issue. He’ll be ready for spring training and at the very least will be the DH. Posada is more complicated. He had extensive shoulder surgery and is still five weeks away from starting a throwing program. The Yankees believe he will be ready to be their catcher by Opening Day based on what his surgeon said. With all their other needs, they can’t really go out and get a catcher now.
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Thanks to everybody for writing in.
This entry was posted
on Tuesday, October 28th, 2008 at 7:39 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
I don’t get why Lowe makes a lot more sense than Burnett. Sure, he’s had success in the AL but that was four years ago. His last AL East season was 14-12, 5.42. Burnett is also 3 1/2 years younger.
Amen to staying far from Manny.
Somebody the other night(maybe GB7) was talking about how Edwin Jackson was there for the asking a couple years ago, and he would look really nice in Pinstripes now. Well, Daniel Cabrera is probably there for the taking this offseason. I know that he is very unreliable, but if he were to be traded to, say Oakland or Chicago, and finally figure it out and start dominating, there would be questions as to why the Yanks didn’t grab him. He obviously has outstanding stuff. Now, I am not talking about him being one of the top 3 in the rotation, but wouldn’t he be a better 5 than Hughes? Phil could then develop at his own pace, and at least Jeter’s hand might be able to make it through a full season.
If the Yankees took a 2 or 3yr view to get youg talent and have a winning team for 5-6 yrs after that (right when our young starters will be in their prime: Joba, Hughes and Kennedy) what would they do? Trade some veterans? Any exciting guys we can get that would improve our long term prospects? It seems like signing a Sabathia, as great as it will be in 2009, might be a bust in the last few years of that contract…
Burnett, much like Sheets, is injured ALL THE TIME. DO the Yankees really need another Pavano? As much as I hope they win next year, I think they should go with a rotation of Wang, Sabathia, Pettitte, Hughes and Joba. Look at other young pitchers…the good ones have had good seasons around Hughes’ age.
If you could trade Hideki Matsui in the offseason, and despite coming off of a knee injury, i think someone would take a chance on him with a reasonable one year contract and the compensation picks they’ll get following the season, I would sign Manny for 4 years in a heartbeat to be the everyday DH. that wont happen though.
and its not really clear to me why Manny would choose to come to NY to play for the Yankees, anyway. I dont buy his alleged desire, other than to keep the Yankees in the conversation to drive up salary demands for other teams in on the bidding.
I dont want to take the risk on Lowe or Burnett. there was a reason the Yankees didnt sign these guys a couple years ago when they were on the open market, whether it be related to injury risk or lackluster performance, so why are they now a part of the solution?
i realize that veteran arms, or moreso proven arms, are needed. i’d personally rather trade some pieces from the system to get a great pitcher than throw money at these guys not named Sabathia on the open market.
one guy i might take a risk on is Sheets. comes with a real injury littered background, and now he’s starting to screw around with a potential elbow issue which is never a good sign for a pitcher… but if you can play the market just right, and get him on a high AAV, low year deal, or a deal with a decent base salary and heavy on incentives I might bite… might.
“I don’t get why Lowe makes a lot more sense than Burnett.”
Lowe = reliable
Burnett = something other than reliable
You know Lowe will pitch. Is he as good as Burnett when Burnett is on top of his game? Of course not. However, Lowe is more apt to bring his A game with greater frequency than Burnett will bring his and is more apt to be a 200 IP pitcher than Burnett is.
Gil Meche is another who could be available via trade. I can’t believe that the Royals are comfortable paying him what they are over the next few years. I would prefer to see Meche rather than trotting Pettitte back out there next year. I don’t like it when these guys do the Brett Favre ‘do I want to play or not’ dance. If that is the way you feel, you can’t possibly be committed to pitching your best. Meche is at least a tough competitor, gives quality innings, even had a couple outstanding starts against the sox.
Rotation of:
Sabathia
Wang
Joba
Meche
Cabrera, or Mussina. No Pettitte, Hughes an Aceves in AAA in case of injuries.
“Gil Meche is another who could be available via trade. I can’t believe that the Royals are comfortable paying him what they are over the next few years.”
i dont really think he’s going to be available. from what i remember, the Royals GM basically said its put up or shut up time for the organization in general… he wants to compete and win next year or soon thereafter, and they certainly arent going to do that if they peel away the few effective players they have.
good idea in theory, but i dont think its realistic unless you are giving up a lot to get him…
same with Greinke, too. untouchable.
Burnett had injury problems, true, but to claim he’s hurt ALL the time is completely untrue.
In the last four years he’s averaged 28 starts a year. Lowe has averaged 34. Again, Lowe’s last AL season was awful and he’s significantly older. If Lowe would sign for one or two years that’s fine, but I doubt he would. I’m also a little leary about having two power-sinker pitchers (Wang) in the same rotation. When they pitch in the same series the other team gets a benefit.
Of course if CC goes elsewhere the Yanks may try signing both.
Mark in Tampa:
Big fat NOOOOO on Cabrera. Don’t like the Jackson analogy. Jackson was a high end prospect who saw his career suffer in some part due to the Dodgers mismanagement of him as a youngster. He’s only 24 now and has demonstrated some improvement in his game over the past year and a half. Cabrera will be 28 and in 5 full seasons of MLB pitching has shown ZERO improvement. He’s not a big strikeout guy, makes Matsuzaka look like Mussina control-wise, and has gotten more and more hittable. He was a below average pitcher when he came up and he’s even further below average now.
you rarely win by signing huge contracts at every position.
it is better to sign 2 solid pitchers like lowe and maybe trade for olsen then sign sabathia.
look at the phillies outside of hammels,dodgers.
doug m as a backup for a reasonable price is not the end of the world.
the problem i have with the yankees is every player is overpaid.arod would of taken less,posada was a terrible idea,giambi.the list is endless.why is jeter making 19 million a year?
they have to get better with signing these players like they did with wang and cano.
lock them up early and long term.
i would sign sabathia because they need an ace and pitching but after that i would get creative.sabathia,pettitte,maybe mussina if he comes back and that is it.
overpaying for perez,burnett is not the answer.
trade hughes and prospects for a good young centerfielder,trade cano and kennedy for a good young pitcher.
“Gil Meche is another who could be available via trade. I can’t believe that the Royals are comfortable paying him what they are over the next few years.”
In a world where Carlos Silvas get $12M per season for being considerably less than ordinary, I doubt the Royals will have any difficulty paying Meche, who has been an innings eater and considerably above average, $12M.
“If you could trade Hideki Matsui in the offseason, and despite coming off of a knee injury, i think someone would take a chance on him with a reasonable one year contract and the compensation picks they’ll get following the season”
How do we know Matsui plays after ‘09??? If he does, how do we know it’s in the US??? Can’t assume those picks. Also have to assume he’s limited to the AL. He wasn’t a very good outfielder healthy. Doubt he’s gotten any better after two knee surgeries. Love his bat though. He’s more valluable to the Yankees than anything they may be able to get for him.
Mark In Tampa…
I was advocating a trade for Meche too…but the GM basically said he was ready to make a push (especially given their September run), plus it really wouldn’t be a salary dump for them because he is signed to a relatively reasonable contract…
But he makes so much sense….the Yankees need more players in their prime….currently they have either really old or really young players (a-rod, jeter, and Nady excluded)
Fredo,
I am only advocating Cabrera as a 5 once Sabathia? is signed, and if Mussina doesn’t come back. Would you really rather watch the rapid decline of Pettitte, or the unravelling of our no. 1 prospect, who is clearly not ready to face big league hitters, maybe not even AAA?
As far as Meche is concerned, of course the GM says they are not trading him, but what other quality pitchers who WILL start 30-35 games can you possibly get? I think he is as available as any of them, for the right price. And, his entire career is in the AL, not an NL mirage!!
Royals are going to make a push by trying to trade a tough AB guy(Teahen) for essentially a 28 yr old rookie outfielder who is marginally better than Melky(Gutierrez/Francisco)?
As far as Meche is concerned, of course the GM says they are not trading him, but what other quality pitchers who WILL start 30-35 games can you possibly get? I think he is as available as any of them, for the right price. And, his entire career is in the AL, not an NL mirage!!
_________________
I totally agree…what do you think it would take to get him?
“How do we know Matsui plays after ‘09??? If he does, how do we know it’s in the US??? Can’t assume those picks.”
yeah, thats a fair point. i would guess he’s still going to be productive enough a player to entice someone into signing him to another deal… but that assumption is based off of the fact that he has a fairly healthy 2009 campaign.
“Also have to assume he’s limited to the AL. He wasn’t a very good outfielder healthy. Doubt he’s gotten any better after two knee surgeries.”
going forward? yeah, more limited to the AL as a primary DH… but to an NL team who has a small-ish LF to play, he can do it and still be productive… i’m thinking of Philly as a replacement for Pat Burrell specifically, but that would make their lineup decidedly more lefty than it already is.
“Love his bat though. He’s more valluable to the Yankees than anything they may be able to get for him.”
he’s only more valuable to the Yankees, for me, if they arent able to shed some of that salary, and use that towards Manny as the primary DH. I’ll give Manny the money and take him as the everyday DH over Matsui, as much as I like Matsui.
but i agree… you arent trading Matsui for highly regarded prospects at this point. maybe one good prospect, and some salary relief. and if you dont fill in the offensive hole he leaves, its a losing situation for the Yankees.
Mark:
A declining Pettitte > Cabrera….and it’s not real close.
Cabrera is flat out awful and it’s not like the Yankees have someone who can coach him up.
As for Meche, I think Moore is far too smart to move the guy unless he is absolutely blown away and I don’t see Cashman sending two high end prospects to KC for him.
“Royals are going to make a push by trying to trade a tough AB guy(Teahen) for essentially a 28 yr old rookie outfielder who is marginally better than Melky(Gutierrez/Francisco)?”
they dont love Teahan, nor do they have room for him in the OF.
they want to slide Dejesus over to LF and find a new CF.
it is the trades they didn’t make that were under the radar that is hurting the yankees.garza and all the pitchers like him that the yankees might of been able to trade for.
you do not need 5 aces,just 3 solid ones and 2 decent ones.
the yankees need 3 pitchers,pettitte being one.
pettitte should be # 4 and joba # 5 so his innings can be controlled.
they need a number one or two and a # 3 starter.
the yankees are in a corner because they are reacting to a series of problems instead of being proactive.
they are going to be used to drive prices for a player up and other teams trading with them will wan’t the world in a trade.
why did they wait until the last minute to fix these problems?
this is why their payroll will be 250 million in 2009.
if their payroll were a lot lower i would sign sabathia,tex and another pitcher.they need to let all the fa go.
marte i don’t know,7 million???
89 million off the books.sabathia,tex,pettitte will cost 55 million a year and have payroll at 175 million befor arb raises.
is this the way to go????
why not package cano,kennedy and other prospects to get a good young pitcher and future ace?,hughes,ajax,marte for a stud centerfielder and maybe sign tex only.
if we can get a billingsley type for cano,kennedy and others and get a kemp type centerfielder for hughes,ajax and others and still keep a lot of prospects like brackman,betances,montero why not look into it.
we get a centerfielder,first baseman and a pitcher and give up players who didn’t help us one little bit in 2008.
hughes is 1,probably 2 years away and the chance of him being anything above a number 3 is slim,kennedy no big deal,cano can be replaced.
the yankees need to get creative instead of signing every fa available.it doesn’t work.
“Royals are going to make a push by trying to trade a tough AB guy(Teahen) for essentially a 28 yr old rookie outfielder who is marginally better than Melky(Gutierrez/Francisco)?”
Not according to the Royals’ GM they aren’t (see MLBTR.com).
In what world is Teahen a tough AB guy??? All his offensive numbers have declined steadily over the last two years from his apparently fluke 2006 season. His numbers for a corner infielder or outfielder are awful.
“if we can get a billingsley type for cano,kennedy and others and get a kemp type centerfielder for hughes,ajax and others and still keep a lot of prospects like brackman,betances,montero why not look into it.”
because you cant.
“because you cant.”
Exactly. Teams will not trade young players who have proven themselves at the big league level and are cost controlled for another 4-5 seasons for prospects who have yet to prove anything on the big stage and are hit or miss.
“I totally agree…what do you think it would take to get him?”
Good question. The price could be too high. I would NOT trade Cano. If the Royals asked for Hughes and another prospect, I think that would have to be very seriously considered.
“In what world is Teahen a tough AB guy???”
I am by no means an expert on the Royals, but every time I have seen them play well, it seems that Teahen and Guillen are in the middle of it, I don’t care what the numbers say. It just seems odd that there was a rumor about him being traded for very little if they think their team actually has a chance to do something.
So, basically, since we can’t trade for these types of players… people advocate spending hundred’s of millions of dollars on a roster that is filled with mercenaries
That’s the type of team I want to root for!
see what the marlins wan’t for Chris Volstad or what the braves wan’t for Jair Jurrjens.
pitchers who are about to possibly take off but have not yet.
cano,kennedy,melky or something along those lines.
i am not saying it is even possible buy cano has to be somewhat attractive with other prospects added.
People say lets “buy” (not sign) CC, AJ, Tex, Manny…in what world is that fair, right, or enjoyable as a fan to watch?
what would it take to get Chris Volstad or Jair Jurrjens.
just curious.
“So, basically, since we can’t trade for these types of players… people advocate spending hundred’s of millions of dollars on a roster that is filled with mercenaries
That’s the type of team I want to root for!”
have you been paying attention for the better part of the past decade?
because nothing has changed.
noone is saying that Cashman cant make trades for young players… but he’s going to have to grossly overpay to make some of these trades possible, and is that really going to benefit the big league club in the long run?
in some cases, depending on the player you are bringing back, it might… in most cases, though, it wont.
“People say lets “buy†(not sign) CC, AJ, Tex, Manny…in what world is that fair, right, or enjoyable as a fan to watch?”
in a world where the Yankees win the WS, very enjoyable for me.
Re: Cabrera
I am not going to beat that drum like somebody did earlier this year for Livan Hernandez. But, I thought he could be a relatively cheap no. 5 who pitches every time his spot comes up. I don’t think he is that great, just better than Hughes at this point. The Yanks WILL ruin Phil if they insist on him starting the year in NY.
As far as Pettitte is concerned, I didn’t think he was 100% committed to pitching last year, don’t think he will be this year, regardless of what he says. Didn’t we have enough of the team looking like they would rather be somewhere else, anywhere else, than playing baseball?
TurnTwo
______
Not as enjoyable as seeing Scott Brosius jump 3 feet in the air after he wins a world series game with a homerun…those teams were authentic because they weren’t filled with high-priced free agents
They were filled with smart decision making by the GM…
“It just seems odd that there was a rumor about him being traded for very little if they think their team actually has a chance to do something.”
I hear what you’re saying. However, I’d suggest to you that in this particular case, they aren’t asking for much because they aren’t giving much away.
As Pete and several others have pointed out, the problem with the Yankees this year was not the pitching; it was the offense. If the Yankees want to fix the offense they need to sign Manny. Manny helps the offense with his own production as well as with the protection that he gives to others in the lineup. The protection factor is huge because it would allow A-Rod to see better pitches and relax at the plate. Matsui, Posada, Nady et al are good hitters. Manny is a great hitter, perhaps the best right handed bat of his generation.
Living in the Boston area, I understand all of the drawbacks. Manny has the maturity level of a 9 year old. He has issues with the media. He admires his home runs. IMHO-a lot of Manny’s social and other issues would disappear with the Yankees. Guys like Jeter and Posada simply won’t tolerate that sort of behavior.
Give him 4 years and $100 mil. Let’s score some runs.
And yes, let’s go after CC and another starter.
“those teams were authentic because they weren’t filled with high-priced free agents”
nor were they full of yankees prospects drafted and developed thru the system, or void of free agents or hired guns.
maybe Mike Mussina reverses direction, and re-signs.
CC
Wang
Joba
Pettite
Mussina
“see what the marlins wan’t for Chris Volstad or what the braves wan’t for Jair Jurrjens.
pitchers who are about to possibly take off but have not yet.”
Again, why are these teams going to trade guys who’ve shown something on the MLB level and are cost controlled for the next 5-6 years???
if there is no way to get better because every idea on this board is shot down maybe we should either play the players we have and get rid of the crazy contracts like damon,matsui and others over time.
i do not knoiw what it will take to get billingsley,kemp,volquez and others but we should at least see what it will take.if it is too much don’t do it.
but too sit still and do nothing except sign sabathia for 25 million a year and tex for 20 is insanity imo.
there has to be trades that work for the yankees.
i would like too see a competitive team with a reasonable payroll that is all.
it can be done,look at the rays and several other teams.
every time a proposal is made a bunch of experts on this board say this team won’t do this that team won’t do this and they might be right.
call the marlins and ask them what it would take,the dodgers,the braves.maybe we will be suprized.
if nothing can be done play what we have,add a few fa so that payroll isn’t an embarrasment and call it a day.
i don’t wan’t my team to have a 250 dollar payroll or 3 million dollars per win.
One thing we have to understand, is that the Yanks only option for a proven true no. 1 starter this year is CC. And he has proven nothing in the post-season. The others will not be pried loose without giving up actual major league talent.
That leaves the Yanks needing to search for pitchers such as Garza and Edwin Jackson the last few years; or perhaps someone like Jair Jurggens this year. Guys on the verge of breaking through, but certainly not sure things. It is either that, or re-treads like Eric Milton, Sheets, Lowe, etc. I vote for the younger pitchers.
The Yanks also don’t have an option that is available to many other teams. That is rule V. The Yanks cannot put a rule 5 guy on the big league roster because of the win now or else approach. However, some of the great players, such as Johan Santana, were rule 5 players.
“what would it take to get Chris Volstad or Jair Jurrjens.
just curious.”
A few masked gunmen.
lol
I can actually answer the jackets in the dugout question. There are vents in the Yankee dugout that blow out cold air. If you are right in front of those vents (where most managers stand, you can get somewhat cold. What I don’t get is why not just wear a long sleeve under the jersey. As Tito in Boston can attest, you have to wear your jersey under the jacket. So thats 3 layer of clothes. I don’t think the air gets that cold.
“Guys like Jeter and Posada simply won’t tolerate that sort of behavior.”
You would have thought that Varitek(the Craptain), Beckett, Schilling, Lowell and others wouldn’t tolerate Manny’s behavior either. Nor did Francona’s Neville Chambelain style appeasement work either. I think he will be a problem unless he is constantly playing for his next contract.
I do think that the offense was mostly in a collective funk this year, and will be better next year. But the pitching will be the achilles heel in ‘09 if not addressed.
Fredo Corleone
October 28th, 2008 at 9:57 am
“see what the marlins wan’t for Chris Volstad or what the braves wan’t for Jair Jurrjens.
pitchers who are about to possibly take off but have not yet.â€
Again, why are these teams going to trade guys who’ve shown something on the MLB level and are cost controlled for the next 5-6 years???
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i don’t know.
why is matt cain supposed to be available,why did boston get becket with only minor leaguers,why did cincy get volquez for hamilton.
it does not happen often but it does happen.
timing is everything.
what is the answer? do we just wait and see what our kids can do? do we keep hughes,cano? i don’t know but if i am the gm i make a list of 10 pitchers i wan’t excluding no pitcher and try to get a few of them,at least i tried.
volquez,billingsley the way down to 10 maybe 20 and see what happens.
if i get a good young pitcher for cano and others i do it because pitching wins.a second baseman is easily replaced imo.
i am not going to think that everything is impossible because every player is tradeable for the right price.
Fredo Corleone
October 28th, 2008 at 10:00 am
“what would it take to get Chris Volstad or Jair Jurrjens.
just curious.â€
A few masked gunmen.
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i have some masks.the guns i will not admit to on this board.
that is my story and i am sticking to it.
“That leaves the Yanks needing to search for pitchers such as Garza and Edwin Jackson the last few years; or perhaps someone like Jair Jurggens this year. Guys on the verge of breaking through, but certainly not sure things. It is either that, or re-treads like Eric Milton, Sheets, Lowe, etc. I vote for the younger pitchers.”
Younger pitchers would be great. Tell me this though. What do the Yankees have that the Braves would want for Jurrjens?? As you consider this, keep in mind that the Braves may or may not re-sign FA’s Glavine and Smoltz and at present have Hudson and Jurrjens as the only sure things for their ‘09 rotation. With guys like Campillo, Morton and Hanson as maybe’s. What do you give them and why would they be better off with it than Jurrjens, who is cost controlled for 5 years?
“why is matt cain supposed to be available,why did boston get becket with only minor leaguers,why did cincy get volquez for hamilton.”
Yanks have a Prince Fielder type somewhere to get them Cain?? That’s the price you’re talking about.
How’d Boston get Beckett??? They took on a bloated salary in Mike Lowell and traded a guy who is arguably one of the 5 best players in the NL.
Why’d Cincy get Volquez for Hamilton? Not sure, but name me the 30/100 cost controlled centerfielder the Yankees have to offer for that type of pitcher.
Fredo:
Not saying that Jurrjens–I have no idea how to spell his name–is the answer. Just somebody of that type. They are not easy to get, but Tampa did get Garza and Bartlett for a floundering prospect; although Young will probably eventually be an all-star. Tampa got Edwin Jackson for an end of the line Danys Baez. What did Detroit get back for Jurrjens in the first place? I am not saying it will be easy, but somebody, somewhere has a quality pitcher who will move at a reasonable price this winter. That pitcher, whoever he is, will make valuable contributions next year. Cashman needs to earn his money and make sure that that pitcher is in NY in ‘09. A monkey could sit there and simply sign the biggest free agents to the biggest contracts and say “I did everything I could”.
Delmon Young was a former 1st overall pick!
Hey Peter,
I think you are wrong about Betemit. He has value both as a 2009 Yankee and as a potential trade chip. He plays passable defense at shortstop and first base and sub-optimal defense at third and second. His plate patience is awful but his power is legitimate. His splits against righties are above replacement level and he went 8 for 26 as a pinch hitter, which certainly has its uses. I’ll take him over Cairo, Enrique Wilson or Rey Sanchez any day of the week. A bench with Betemit, Ransom, Melky and Molina is light years better than anything we’ve had in recent years.
I just read the mail blog today & I am glad that I found someone (you, Pete!) who agrees with me on potential starters—
(1) CC (at all costs!)
(2) Lowe (if the contract makes sense)
I think CC is essential. He is a throwback to the days of Mickey Lolich, a rubber-armed, overweight pitcher who gets outs with his ball movement. He is a true #1 pitcher, exactly what the Yankees need to move to the next level. I would offer him whatever he wants. As for Lowe– he has quality AL East experience & postseason experience & he still gets outs. He’s a #3-4 starter and wouldn’t or shouldn’t cost overly much.
I don’t trust Burnett. Sure, he’s killed the Yankees but against everyone else he’s not nearly as good overall. I also question his attitude.
I would be surprised if Moose walked away now that he’s within sight of 300, after the year he just had. He remade himself into a junkball pitcher and I think he could now be successful for another couple of years throwing 87-89 mph max with good location. Right now I’d prefer him over Pettite, because Pettite is still pitching like he’s 28, but he’s not 28 any more, if you know what I mean. It’s the same thing Moose went through in 2007.
And there’s another issue– Joba & Hughes are not going to be allowed to pitch 200 innings, so you need 6 starters for 2009.
So my rotation in 2009 is–
CC/Wang/Moose/Lowe/Joba&Hughes.
I think that’s a very good rotation, and with the addition of Matsui & Posada for the whole year, we’ll have enough hitting to get into the postseason & hopefully have some success there again.
But here’s a big question– what about Pavano? Everyone thinks Cashman will buy out his contract, & just boot him out the door, which is what he deserves. But he came back and actually showed he could pitch even though his arm strength wasn’t 100%. I think he has value. And the fact is, the Yankees need a pitcher, and they may also need tradebait. I could be wrong, but I think he could be 2009’s Comeback Player of the Year. If he was a different personality, you’d think he’d want to give the Yankees one real good season, right? That’s a big IF. But Cashman could pick up his option and trade him in a package deal for a 1B-man too.
TurnTwo
October 28th, 2008 at 9:44 am
“So, basically, since we can’t trade for these types of players… people advocate spending hundred’s of millions of dollars on a roster that is filled with mercenaries
That’s the type of team I want to root for!â€
have you been paying attention for the better part of the past decade?
because nothing has changed.
noone is saying that Cashman cant make trades for young players… but he’s going to have to grossly overpay to make some of these trades possible, and is that really going to benefit the big league club in the long run?
in some cases, depending on the player you are bringing back, it might… in most cases, though, it wont.
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imo the marte and nady trade was a bad idea looking back.
we should of used the prospects to get a centerfielder,fb,pitcher.
we lost 4 prospects and still have the same holes.
i know we can use nady and marte but i just think that we should of at least filled the hole in center,fb or a pitcher and i believe tabata would of done that combined with others.
a corner outfield spot is not on my priority list when we have a major problem at first base,cf and pitching.
heyman,gammons and others are saying the yankees should use hughes and others to get a centerfielder and cano to bring in a pitcher and maybe sign sabathia and tex.
sabathia,tex,pettitte will cost 53 million or so,factor in arbitration raises and payroll will be much lower,in the 180 range.
we get a centerfielder,pitcher,tex,sabathia AND lower payroll.
Cashman needs to earn his money and make sure that that pitcher is in NY in ‘09. A monkey could sit there and simply sign the biggest free agents to the biggest contracts and say “I did everything I couldâ€.
________
Precisely…just like everyone on this board…duh, of course it would be great to sign CC, Tex, and Manny
A)Can you afford it?
B) Do they want to come here?
C) Do you current players want to spend 162+ days a year with Manny? i.e. chemistry
I love Manny, and he is non-pareil as a hitter, but NO.
He’s too old, can’t play our LF, and we don’t have a DH spot for him.
Mark in Tampa:
I understand what you’re saying, but I keep coming back to the same question. Two questions actually. 1) Who, if any, are the teams with a surplus of starting pitching? 2) What do the Yankees have that another team would want in order to part with a young, cost controlled pitcher who has already met with some big league success?
Everyone thinks they know exactly what needs to be done but what Yankee player or contract has everyone here agreed with?
No matter what Cashman does, someone will think he’s wrong. Talk about a thankless job.
“we should of used the prospects to get a centerfielder,fb,pitcher.”
but think about what you gave up to get Nady and Marte.
Tabata could turn out to be a nice player… but Nady is right now what people project Tabata could be in maybe 3 or 4 years.
and you gave up a couple of back-end and bullpen long relievers the Yankees didnt need for a dominant lefty for the pen.
and what you did was move pieces in your system for useful two players who were under contract for 2009, too.
what you werent going to get back in return for Tabata and a couple of long relievers was a position player of real substance and impact that you are proposing we need here.
Jeff Karstens and Dan McCutcheon is not getting you Matt Kemp.
Yanks in 2010:
Yes, Young was the overall no. 1, but having the same kind of problems that Tabata had been having for the Yanks. some of the Rays, like Crawford and Pena, as well as Joe Maddon, insisted that they get rid of him because he was so bad for the team. That certainly lowered his value below what you might normally expect for a no. 1.
Also, the Jays just signed Bullington, the no 1 overall from ‘02, off of waivers. Players value can drop quick.
Mark you must be kidding about Betemit. That was a terrible acquisition.
Guys, in this discussion we are seeing the problems Cashman has in trying to transition this team. The Yankees generate more $$$ than anyone else and their fine base justifiably expects excelence for their money. But the farm system, decimated by a decade of horrible drafting/player development is still not producing MLB ready players.
Thus they don’t have the trade chips to acquire either a # 1 starter or an emerging young player. So what can they do?
They can sign PRIME free agents, preferably guys in their 20’s (CC, TEX) or early 30s (AJ). They need to avoid expensive older players (Manny, Lowe). Then you go after role players to improve the bench and create lineup flexibility and you hope veterans play closer to their level.
Eventually the hope is that AJax, Montero, Romine, Sublett et al will be MLB ready. Eventually the hope is that Joba, Hughes, Melancon, Beances, Brackman et al will be reliable MLB pitchers. In the mean time the best way to remain competitive is to pick upFA in their prime at positions of immediate need and avoid situation where guys in their upper 320s/low 40s dominate the roster.
Not an easy balancing act, is it?
“Mark you must be kidding about Betemit. That was a terrible acquisition.”
not when you take into consideration you only gave up Scott Proctor to get him, and he’s been awful in LA, and since undergone elbow surgery, i believe.
gotta look at things in context.
“we should of used the prospects to get a centerfielder,fb,pitcher.”
No team would have given up a young 1B, yound SP, or a young CF for the players the Pirates got for Nady and Marte.
You seem to forget that Pitt’s GM was universally criticised
for that trade because he didn’t get enough for Nady and Marte.
Fredo:
I don’t know. I don’t know who is available, what it would take, what other teams would accept. That is why teams pay GMs what they do and spend millions on scouting. I am just pointing out the direction that I would like to see the team take. You can’t just throw your hands up and not try to get players that can help you.
Great discussion, but I have things I actually have to do now. Catch you later!
You guys who are complaining about Cashman trading Tabata didn’t see him play. He was not good at all in Trenton, even got suspended for walking out on the team. Sure, he perked up after the trade, but with some people it takes a change of scenery. He was drowning in the Yankee system. That’s in contrast to Jackson, who improved greatly this past season.
I also take exception to those who say the Yankees farm system isn’t producing MLB-caliper players. They have been sending up some pretty darn good pitching prospects. Other than that, who do you want? We don’t need anyone at 3B, SS, 2B or C for the next 2-3 years. We have a glut in LF and DH for 2009. We do have a couple of possibilities for CF from the minors (Melky & Gardner), another young OF-er on the way (Jackson), so that leaves RF if Abreau leaves, but there’s Nady for that spot, or 1B. How has their farm system hurt the Yankees? I don’t see it. I would much rather see the Yankees emphasize development of pitching and trade or sign position players if need be, you can always get a hitter.
then we can hold hands and sing we are the world,lol.
there is always a way to build the right way going forward.
we brought up pettitte,mo,jeter,bernie in the 90’s and now we have cano,wang,joba and a much better farm system from what i understand.
the right fa signings,trades and the farm system will all have to be used to do this.
trades,fa or the farm alone will not cut it.
in the 90’s we brought in the right players,made the right trades and our pitching was not the greatest but good enough and had debth.
right now we only have 2 pitchers and one is on a strict pitch count.we do have debth with hughes,kennedy,acevez,coke,giese and others but need 3 starters.
i would love to have sabathia,burnett,tex and maybe pettitte or mussina.that would be about 70 million plus arb raises.payroll will be at 200 million or so.
is that the answer,i don’t know.
i just would like the payroll to be around 180 even though it is not my money.
this allows us to keep everyone wich might open up doors for future moves.
i just would be carefull because we might have several bad contracts on our hands.
if tex and sabathia would take 5 years i am all for it but it doesn’t sound like they will.
if i were the yankees i would come out in the media and say we are not interested in signing cc or tex for 6 or 7 years but will give them 5 with the most yearly.let’s see how much they do or don’t wan’t to come to ny.
becket makes 10 million,pettitte made 16,giambi made 22.4 million youk made less than half of that,same with almost every player in comparison.
what are the red sox doing right? what are the yankees doing wrong?
the sox from what i hear have 40-60 million to spend and their pitching staff mostly set.they can trade lowell because his contract is not too devastating but a worry,move youk to third and not miss a beat,sign tex and be a much stronger team.
they also have a great balanced farm system that will allow them to make trades going forward.
they do it right by letting players go at the right time,signing reasonable contracts that allow them to move players easily,building the farm system up wich is the engine that drives everything.
this kills me to say all of this but the yankees have to emulate them wich i believe they are trying to do.
there is a reason why cashman is good friends with theo.cash is no dummy.i think he will suprise all of us this winter by making shrewd moves that we can’t see coming.
TurnTwo, I think you’re wrong. The Yankees dumped Cairo (unceremoniously) when they got Betemit. Cairo was a better backup player, could play more positions than Betemit and was a much better situational hitter. Betemit has “pop”, but I think the Yankees have players who can do that already.
As for Proctor— of course he had arm trouble this season. Who was his manager? I actually wondered if Proctor was happy Torre was coming over to LA.
Yanks in 2010-
It took me a while to do the research, but, did you root for these players in 1978?
Goose Gossage, Don Gullett, Catfish Hunter, Chris Chamblis, Paul Blair and Reggie Jackson?
Or how about these players in 1996?
David Cone, Dwight Gooden, Jimmy Key, Ramiro Mendoza, Kenny Rogers, Darryl Strawberry, Joe Girardi, Wade Boggs, Mariano Duncan, and Tim Raines?
Mercenaries All. David Cone is the ultimate “hired gun.”
You put together the best team you can however you can. The Yankees are lucky to have money to utilize free agency when trades are either unavailable or not sufficient to fill needs.
Look for Manny/Boros to hire a PR firm (assuming he has not already done so) to clean up his image and “clarify” what really took place in Boston, especially this past July. There are enough well-placed reports floating around originating from his “friends” that he wants to end his career where it all began…in the Bronx.
Boros has to maintain a low key as to “telling it like it is about the Sawx organization” since he has an obvious conflict of interest….he has, and will have, ongoing dealings with the Sawx (as he does with all the moneyed clubs) and cannot do a direct attack, emphasing among other things, certain parallels in how the team dealt with its fallen superstars, i.e., Mo V, Nomar, Pedro, in the past. The campaign has started already…..Nomar has spoken out, Bill Mueller also, the reports, articles in the NY Times, Boston Globe etc. The campaign has started, but will not pick up steam until after the Dodgers’ period of exclusivity ends.
Manny has an uphill battle with the media and the fans, and perhaps with management. His conduct over the past few months in LA was Phase I of “Operation Rectification”. Look for it to soon intensify.
Fredo Corleone
October 28th, 2008 at 10:16 am
“why is matt cain supposed to be available,why did boston get becket with only minor leaguers,why did cincy get volquez for hamilton.â€
Yanks have a Prince Fielder type somewhere to get them Cain?? That’s the price you’re talking about.
How’d Boston get Beckett??? They took on a bloated salary in Mike Lowell and traded a guy who is arguably one of the 5 best players in the NL.
Why’d Cincy get Volquez for Hamilton? Not sure, but name me the 30/100 cost controlled centerfielder the Yankees have to offer for that type of pitcher.
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i understand the hamilton point but he is a terrible defender and not a real centerfielder with major concerns,hanley was only a prospect.a great one but only a prospect and if annibal returns to form they get the better on that deal by far.
you or i don’t know what it will take to get a player so please……
i was screaming for the yankees to get or try to get garza when the deal wen’t down.
these are the types of trades the yankees are terrible at.
if it means taking a players contract on so be it.
i am not saying boston made out because i don’t believe they did in the long run but it got them a ws.
As far as the Steinbrenner family fortune goes, maybe they could ask Felix Lopez to get his old gardening job back to make a little bit more money.
Vandelay,
Do you have a thing about family businesses employing the inlaws, or is this a racial thing?
Or did Lopez shoot your dog? Steal your girlfriend?
You seem to be able to inject some completely irrelevant jab at him into any topic, so just wondering…
Fredo Corleone
October 28th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Mark in Tampa:
I understand what you’re saying, but I keep coming back to the same question. Two questions actually. 1) Who, if any, are the teams with a surplus of starting pitching? 2) What do the Yankees have that another team would want in order to part with a young, cost controlled pitcher who has already met with some big league success?
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Scott Olsen might be a player to look at.
the marlins are looking to shop him around and he is 24 yrs old.
Ubaldo Jiménez of the rockies.
there are not a lot of them but if you can land a few that are not huge names with decent numbers you might not have to give up a ton.
the idea is to build a solid pitching staff not 5 aces.
if we sign sabathia along with wang and joba we are heading in the right direction.
we just need 2 more pitchers.
maybe an olson and one more young pitcher who might turn into a garza.
Mark:
will take Miguel Cairo any day, over Betemit.
while often ridiculed on this board, Cairo would have quality/decent at-bats for a bench player and didn’t strike out often. And he was able to play the field.
at this point, no need for me describe Betemit.
Good post, Doreen. I rooted for all those players, although I must admit I never warmed up to Reg-gie, but he was one of the best clutch players I ever saw.
I don’t care how much money they spend. It’s not my money, what do I care? I go to 1 game per year and watch the others on YES. Besides, what the 1980s and the past 8 years have taught us is that you don’t win with an All-Star at every position. You need great pitching and a WELL-BALANCED TEAM.
ps– Don’t forget Graig Nettles, Sparky Lyle, Lou Piniella, Willie Randolph, Bucky Dent– none of them came up through the Yankees’ system either. And neither did Stick Michael.
Trade Cano and bring up Russo to play 2B – good ballplayer with less head-hassle than Cano.
Thumbs down with Betemit. Ty Wigginton, Jeff Keppinger, Bill Hall and others are a better fit with the Yankees. Use Betemit as part of a deal.
Mark in Tampa
October 28th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Fredo:
Not saying that Jurrjens-I have no idea how to spell his name-is the answer. Just somebody of that type. They are not easy to get, but Tampa did get Garza and Bartlett for a floundering prospect; although Young will probably eventually be an all-star. Tampa got Edwin Jackson for an end of the line Danys Baez. What did Detroit get back for Jurrjens in the first place? I am not saying it will be easy, but somebody, somewhere has a quality pitcher who will move at a reasonable price this winter. That pitcher, whoever he is, will make valuable contributions next year. Cashman needs to earn his money and make sure that that pitcher is in NY in ‘09. A monkey could sit there and simply sign the biggest free agents to the biggest contracts and say “I did everything I couldâ€.
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finally someone who knows that it can be done at a reasonable price.
signing all these huge contracts has not worked.time to get it right.
even a pitcher like annibal sanchez.someone along those lines.
they are the pitchers that make a difference.
how is the hampton contract working out for the braves,zito.the met’s didn’t win with santanna.they were the same team with him.seattle with bedard.
the twins made a terrible mistake trading garza.
this is why i don’t trade hughes unless we fix first base,centerfield for a long time.
pitching is impossible to get unless you are very smart.
Doreen, great post. Don’t forget that the most famous Yankee of them all–Babe Ruth–was was literally bought by the Yankees.
Bru:
Olsen may be a guy the Fish will move with him being eligible for arbitration. Not sure how his stuff will play in the AL East, but he’s probably gettable whereas Volstad is not.
Jiminez??? Exceedingly doubtful. Again a young, cost controlled guy who pitched very well in the 2nd half and superbly in Coors. He is not likely going anywhere.
sevrox
October 28th, 2008 at 11:35 am
“Trade Cano and bring up Russo to play 2B – good ballplayer with less head-hassle than Cano.”
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This is a great example of why I don’t stay on this blog very long. Comments like this make me crazy.
“Frankie speaking . . .
October 28th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Use Betemit as part of a deal”
exactly what type of deal?
drugs?
Didn’t Girardi have issues with Olsen?
Chambliss makes some excellent points regarding Manny. It is not unlikely that the NY Media,the majority of the posters on this board, and many other fans will be sorely disappointed, and perhaps in a state of rage, in 2-3 months, but ecstactic come October next.
SteveB: Russo for Cano comment – ’splain?
Cano’s a mental mistake waiting to happen. Why don’t you think Russo would be a good MLB 2ndbaseman?
pat
October 28th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Everyone thinks they know exactly what needs to be done but what Yankee player or contract has everyone here agreed with?
No matter what Cashman does, someone will think he’s wrong. Talk about a thankless job.
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not true.
a 209 million dollar payroll and the team is a mess.
there is a right way and a wrong way to build a team.
this took years to make this mess.the trades that they did not make for pitchers like garza,becket and dozens of others that might not have cost them hughes,cano.
we probably could of gotten garza for kennedy and melky.
i know it is easy to look back and critisize trades and signings but the yankees have to get better at recognizing pitchers that will be good instead of reacting and wanting to sign a 29 year old pitcher for 7 years and 25 million per year.
that does not work.
they need one or two strong wang type pitchers and 3 garza,shields types.
if you take a gamble on 5 0r 6 olsen or garza type of deals a few of them will pan out before they become huge names.
they were crazy not to be involved in the garza trade,at least try.
“finally someone who knows that it can be done at a reasonable price.”
Yet neither you nor Mark can name that price. What do the Yankees have to offer that brings back young, cost controlled starting pitching with big league success? I’d suggest you don’t have the answer because the Yankees don’t have the players.
“pat
October 28th, 2008 at 10:30 am
No matter what Cashman does, someone will think he’s wrong. Talk about a thankless job”
basically.
sevrox
October 28th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Trade Cano and bring up Russo to play 2B – good ballplayer with less head-hassle than Cano.
_____________________________________________________
I doubt that you’ve ever seen Russo play, so, you don’t know whether he’s “ggod” or not. He played half a season at Trenton this past season, but, you figure he’s good enough to play 2nd base in 2009?
***good***
Bronx Resident
October 28th, 2008 at 11:47 am
SteveB: Russo for Cano comment – ‘splain?
Cano’s a mental mistake waiting to happen. Why don’t you think Russo would be a good MLB 2ndbaseman?
______________________________________________________
How about if Russo at least gets a full season in AA before moving him to NY. Do you figure he’s so good that he dosn’t need any AAA experience?
We couldn’t have made the Garza trade. Delmon Young, at the time, superstar potential. The Yankees had no such young bat in their system to give up for Garza.
“Didn’t Girardi have issues with Olsen?’
Don’t know. Joe G had a lot of young guys to deal with in ‘06. Olsen had a nice season for him. I seem to recall Olsen having some sort of off field issue. DUI or something a long those lines, maybe. He was brutal in ‘07 but more along his ‘06 season last year. Still pretty young. Not sure he misses enough bats to make it work in the AL East though.
just think if one move like garza wich i believe could of been pulled of or a similar trade and we sign sabathia alone.
the rotation would be
sabathia
wang
pettitte
garza
joba with probably hughes,kennedy,acevez,coke,giese and others for debth.
payroll would be much lower and we are much better.
it is these types of trades that work and allow you the financial flexibility to better the team.
if they sign sabathia,burnett,pettitte and tex and still don’t win it all it would be devastating and they would not be able to add another player in addition to being stuck with these players for years along with arod’s,jeters,posada’s bad contracts.
at least damon and matsui’s contracts are almost over and are reasonable so they can be moved easily.
Lets put Cody Ehlers at first next season! I saw him on some list on the internet so he has to be good!
TurnTwo
October 28th, 2008 at 10:30 am
“we should of used the prospects to get a centerfielder,fb,pitcher.â€
but think about what you gave up to get Nady and Marte.
Tabata could turn out to be a nice player… but Nady is right now what people project Tabata could be in maybe 3 or 4 years.
and you gave up a couple of back-end and bullpen long relievers the Yankees didnt need for a dominant lefty for the pen.
and what you did was move pieces in your system for useful two players who were under contract for 2009, too.
what you werent going to get back in return for Tabata and a couple of long relievers was a position player of real substance and impact that you are proposing we need here.
Jeff Karstens and Dan McCutcheon is not getting you Matt Kemp
————————————————————
i understand but in combination with certain prospects maybe kennedy,tabata and veras or edwar ramirez fixes one problem.maybe get’s you a mclouth or fielder or a young pitcher.
i just think they should have been used to fix problems we still have.
maybe a delmon young or felix pie,someone.
“Russo for Cano”
Will Francessa be playing first? And I thought that Russo was with the Giants. Will he really leave his satellite gig to play for the Yanks? Should be some great postgame press conferences, but I doubt he has much of a bat.
“Tom
October 28th, 2008 at 11:58 am
We couldn’t have made the Garza trade. Delmon Young, at the time, superstar potential. The Yankees had no such young bat in their system to give up for Garza”
considering he’s been referring to this NYY non-trade, for the past 10 days, he doesn’t seem to understand that part.
From today’s Borowtiz report (he is one of my fav satarists)
October 28, 2008
World Series Cancelled for Lack of Interest
Phillies Led, Something to Something
In an unprecedented move, Major League Baseball cancelled the 2008 World Series today, citing “overwhelming lack of interest.”
This year’s contest, featuring the Philadelphia Phillies and some other team, will be the first-ever World Series to be yanked before completion, but in the words of one baseball executive, “We’re fairly sure no one will notice.”
The decision to pull the plug on the Series came last night after the fifth game of the contest was rain-delayed and suspended with the score standing at something to something.
Some guys were on base and another guy was pitching when the rains came, but no one in the stadium showed a flicker of interest in the outcome.
“Enough already,” said baseball commissioner Bud Selig. “Let’s put this thing out of its misery.”
At Fox Broadcasting, executives were reportedly “deliriously happy” about the cancellation of the low-rated Series and immediately announced plans to replace it with reruns of “Family Guy” and “House.”
In Philadelphia, slugger Ryan Howard was philosophical about the decision to pull the Series: “I wasn’t really following it – who was ahead, anyway?”
86w183
October 28th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Guys, in this discussion we are seeing the problems Cashman has in trying to transition this team. The Yankees generate more $$$ than anyone else and their fine base justifiably expects excelence for their money. But the farm system, decimated by a decade of horrible drafting/player development is still not producing MLB ready players.
Thus they don’t have the trade chips to acquire either a # 1 starter or an emerging young player. So what can they do?
They can sign PRIME free agents, preferably guys in their 20’s (CC, TEX) or early 30s (AJ). They need to avoid expensive older players (Manny, Lowe). Then you go after role players to improve the bench and create lineup flexibility and you hope veterans play closer to their level.
Eventually the hope is that AJax, Montero, Romine, Sublett et al will be MLB ready. Eventually the hope is that Joba, Hughes, Melancon, Beances, Brackman et al will be reliable MLB pitchers. In the mean time the best way to remain competitive is to pick upFA in their prime at positions of immediate need and avoid situation where guys in their upper 320s/low 40s dominate the roster.
Not an easy balancing act, is it?
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not at all.
it would be nice though for them to strike gold with an under the radar pitcher or two that they can get without giving up a boatload of prospects.a pitcher like olsen of the marlins.
he is a lefty and 24 yrs old with decent numbers who might take off.
Tom
October 28th, 2008 at 10:44 am
“we should of used the prospects to get a centerfielder,fb,pitcher.â€
No team would have given up a young 1B, yound SP, or a young CF for the players the Pirates got for Nady and Marte.
You seem to forget that Pitt’s GM was universally criticised
for that trade because he didn’t get enough for Nady and Marte
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trades are always critisized but the deal still wen’t down.
the yankees wait until a player becomes a big name and then it will cost too much to get him.
i am talking about the garza trades.we only need a few to work out.
i am not talking about every single position.
over the course of the last several years the yankees could of fixed a lot of problems but did not and should have.
there were many pitchers that were young and turned out to be good that they should of tried to get.
Look at three deals the Rays made for 3/5 of their rotation, and tell me the Yanks did’t have enough to make 2 of them:
Kazmir for Victor Zambrano
Edwin Jackson for Danys Baez and a nobody
Garza and Bartlett for Delmon Young.
Delmon Young is probably more value than we have had in a long time, but the other two are nothing more than what the Yanks could offer. Heck, we even have Zambrano. J/k
Obviously, these deals are in the past, but there have to be similar ones out there now and in the future.
SteveB -
The other players you mentioned – all of those came through trades. Between players the Yankees traded for and free agents that were signed, and a few select homegrown players, the Yankees were able to put together winning teams. I decided to focus on the FAs, because of the word “mercenary.”
You’re right: balance is key.
bru
You say not true but then offer a Garza example and minutes later someone disputes that.
That basically proves my point, there is no one consensus on how best to build a team. It’s a “I’ll know it when I see it” type of thing with hindsight always being 20/20.
The difference between your ideas and Cashman’s are we can see his play out and yours are filled with might haves, could haves and should haves. You seem to be trying to over-simplify something that isn’t all that simple. Add in the additional pressure of it playing out in NY and a difficult situation becomes next to impossible to get an atta boy no matter what you do.
“he is a lefty and 24 yrs old with decent numbers who might take off.”
Scott Olsen’s career line is 31 37 4.63 in the National League. He pitches in a pitcher’s park too.
I’ll give you his win-loss record because he’s played on a bad team, but, his ERA would be at least a half run higher in the AL East.
Look at his road ERA in 2008: 5.58
Look at his road ERA average for 2005-2007: 5.36
Of course hindsight is 20/20, and it is unfair to Cashman and others to criticize after we see what all of the players have developed into, but:
If the Mets took Zambrano for Kazmir, wouldn’t they have taken Vazquez for him first? We wouldn’t have had to live through the RJ fiasco, and Navarro would be the answer to the end of Jorge’s career. Yes, I know the deal was made above Cashman’s level, but deals like RJ are too reminiscent of the late 80’s.
Fredo Corleone
October 28th, 2008 at 11:49 am
“finally someone who knows that it can be done at a reasonable price.â€
Yet neither you nor Mark can name that price. What do the Yankees have to offer that brings back young, cost controlled starting pitching with big league success? I’d suggest you don’t have the answer because the Yankees don’t have the players.
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i don’t know what garza would of cost the yankees but i think they could of gotten him without giving up cano or hughes,olsen same thing and many other pitchers.
i don’t think you know for sure either.
all i am saying is try to get a few pitchers that eventually turn into the garza’s and so on not the ones that already have and will cost an arm and a leg.
i would also move cano if i can get close to a sure thing with a young pitcher and i believe that is possible.
Of course Steve Phillips is gone as a GM for good, I guess we will have to wait until Jim Bowden and the Nationals get a great pitching prospect, for a Kazmir-like steal.
Mark in Tampa
You’re assuming the Mets would have made a trade with the Yankees. Look at the heat that Mets ownership took for that trade and he is playing 1000 miles away. Would they have taken a chance with him playing 10 miles away?
I admit I don’t have the facts in order to understand why some trades are and aren’t made. Others seem to think they have all the answers in the absence of those facts.
they need to move the last 3 innings of the game to FL.
Josh Hamilton patrolling CF for the Yankees ? It could have happened had Cashman taken him instead of Josh Phelps in the 2006 Rule 5 draft. The Cubs took him and dealt him to Cincy for players. The Yankees could have done the same thing
The Yankees have taken far bigger gambles with Doc Gooden, Steve Howe, and Darryl Strawberry.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....tml?page=1
Pat,
As I said, those deals are already past, but they are examples of the kind of deals that are made every single year. I can’t say what it would take player-wise to land some of these guys, but the Yanks really need to explore some of these possibilities. If the other team is demanding too much, call somebody else. If they look hard enough, they can find quality for reason. Other teams do it. Or else, we will keep running out Ponson, Rasner, Zambrano, Hideo Nomo, Igawa, Eric Milton, Aaron Small, Chacon, and others whenever our aged vets break down. Or our delicate youngsters.
Bru, perhaps you should take you’re own advice from your 11:12am post.
“you or i don’t know what it will take to get a player so please……”
But yet you stll insist that everybody is wrong and you are right.
The FACTS say that to acquire a young SP; CF; ect. with potential teams have to give up a young player with as much potential:
Volquez,
Delmon Young
Maybin
Andrew Miller
Hanley Ramerez
Josh Hamilton
The Yankees don’t have any MLB ready prospects who fit this criteria
Bronx Resident–
I would not trade Cano. Cano is a future potential hall of famer, IMO. He has been great with the Yankees with the bat, and very underrated in the field. He turned just 26 last week. His only real problem is in taking pitches, but you don’t notice that when he’s batting over .300. OK, so he had a bad season & seemed distracted. That’s one season out of 4, and he was turning it around in the second half– he batted .307 after the AS break, you know. I say give him his off season, correct the mental issues as best as you can as see if he responds. I bet he will.
NYY passed on Hamilton for Josh Phelps
wow.
Mark in Tampa
October 28th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Look at three deals the Rays made for 3/5 of their rotation, and tell me the Yanks did’t have enough to make 2 of them:
Kazmir for Victor Zambrano
Edwin Jackson for Danys Baez and a nobody
Garza and Bartlett for Delmon Young.
Delmon Young is probably more value than we have had in a long time, but the other two are nothing more than what the Yanks could offer. Heck, we even have Zambrano. J/k
Obviously, these deals are in the past, but there have to be similar ones out there now and in the future.
————————————————————
people are in the state of mind of reacting instead of being proactive.
the good gm’s make the right trades at the right times.
all i hear is no team will do this or do that because of this and that but they fail to realize that it is possible to get players without giving up much before these players turn into you’re volqueze’s,billingsley’s,garza’s.
you sell high and buy low.
i am reading on mlbtr that the tigers might have to trade Magglio because they need help at a few positions and don’t have the money to do it.
the yankees have to stop increasing payroll because the same thing will happen to them and already is.
by the way. Where’s Mel ?
I want my taco today.
The Yankees as far as I recall did not pass on Hamilton for Phelps. My recollection was that Cincy picked way before the Yankees and Hamilton was already gone by the time the Yankees pick came along.
I have no problem passing on Hamilton. He is one weak night away from done for good.
Do not trade Cano. He had a terrible year this year, yet he had better numbers than BJ Upton, who we would all kill to see in Pinstripes next year, even though it will never happen.
Holliday shopping for Yankees
The Yankees have been tied to just about every major free agent and available star this winter. But one top player who has yet to be linked to the Yankees but definitely intrigues them is Matt Holliday.
Rockies management likes Holliday a lot, too, but has determined that it will try to trade him and, in fact, expects to trade him. Colorado is willing to go five years for Holliday but believes he’s interested in a deal for closer to eight years or perhaps even longer.
Yankees people have heard good things about Holliday. However, their one concern is his home-road splits, which show he has been more successful at Coors Field than on the road. This year the difference was minimal, as Holliday hit .332 with 15 home runs at home, .308 with 10 home runs on the road. But his lifetime numbers reflect a significant variation. He’s a .357 career hitter at Coors Field, with 84 home runs. On the road he is a .280 hitter with 44 home runs.
http://tinyurl.com/6n2omg
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eh?
vinny-b
I believe you are saying that tongue and cheek, cause that would be total bs. Who the heck wants to watch a ws game from that awful stadium.
I was correct just looked it up
The Chicago Cubs picked him up in the Rule V draft in 2006 as the number 3 pick (then traded him to Cincy for cash). The Yankees that year did not even pick until #16.
Also that year Soria was picked up at #2 by the Royals from the Padres.
“by the way. Where’s Mel ?
I want my taco today.”
must be reeeallly busy this morning
Cano is the perfect example of a player that most here would be willing to trade Hughes, Kennedy and Melky for if he was playing somewhere else but want to give up on because he is playing here.
Doreen—
I included the trades because you mentioned Chambliss & Cone. They were trades.
Cone for Marty Janzen, Jason Jarvis (minors), and Mike Gordon (minors).
Chambliss, Dick Tidrow and Cecil Upshaw to the Yankees for Fritz Peterson, Steve Kline, Fred Beene, and Tom Buskey.
vinny-b,
Good morning.
Just getting up, stayed up watching “I am Sam” (first time) and the Keanu Reeves little league movie (sad to see Sammy Sosa be the ‘hero’ in it).
pat’s right. Everyone’s got flaws, everyone’s got risk. Who’s the best fit is the main concern.
_____________________________________________
BTW, I’m having a contest. So if you have absolutely nothing to do, check it out. Here’s the question, but please submit the answers via my site if you want to play.
Contest: Where in the World…
…are these players going to be in 2009?
1) CC Sabathia
Mike Mussina
2) Manny Ramirez
3) AJ Burnett
4) Mark Teixeira
5) Derek Lowe
6) Bobby Abreu
7) Jason Giambi
9) Ben Sheets
10)Carl Pavano
I hate these what ifs you can play that for every single player and every single team. What if Jeter didn’t fall to the Yankees, would we have won all those championships. What if we never traded for Alex, would we have won in 2004. What if we never traded Wells for Roger. I mean this is just stupid.
5 years for Holliday? Insane, 8 years certifiable.
gayle, Thank You. you just saved this board from having to read 1000+ posts bashing Cashman for not drafting Josh Hamilton in the rule 5 draft.
once again Thank you.
Shane Victorino was a Rule V draftee…….twice.
Also people need to learn that MLB is not played on your x-box. You can’t point to a player say you want him and he comes, or throw money at him and he’ll play here.
saucy: yup. It better then rehashing non-trades, the yankees haven’t made the past 5yrs
: )
Raining and snowing in Philly today? Fun fun
“Do not trade Cano. He had a terrible year this year, yet he had better numbers than BJ Upton”
nuh-uh
Tom if people need to be told that then thier baseball opinion can’t be taken serious.
“Cano is a future potential hall of famer, IMO.”
I wouldn’t trade Cano either and I think he can become a great player but to mention him as a PHOF player is just in the realm of the ridiculous at this point.
Come back to us after he puts up 10 consistent years.
Where did Hamilton go after the ASG? It was like he barely added to his HR-RBI totals in the 2nd half.
So funny if you really look at the Rule V it is a total gamble in terms if anyone ever pans out. There is a reason players are placed in the Rule V draft and looking over the past few years there are maybe 1 or 2 players that really do pan out, the others you never hear about again.
SO you really cannot bash any team for what they do or do not do in the Rule V it seems to me to be just a total throw it up and see if it sticks kind of thing.
“gayle, Thank You. you just saved this board from having to read 1000+ posts bashing Cashman for not drafting Josh Hamilton in the rule 5 draft.”
Hadn’t they also signed Damon to a 4 year deal months earlier?
Tom
October 28th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Bru, perhaps you should take you’re own advice from your 11:12am post.
“you or i don’t know what it will take to get a player so please……â€
But yet you stll insist that everybody is wrong and you are right.
The FACTS say that to acquire a young SP; CF; ect. with potential teams have to give up a young player with as much potential:
Volquez,
Delmon Young
Maybin
Andrew Miller
Hanley Ramerez
Josh Hamilton
The Yankees don’t have any MLB ready prospects who fit this criteria
————————————————————
i am not insisting everybody is wrong i just don’t believe that signing every single player for huge dollars is the way to go and i am not suggesting to exersize my ideas with every position.
what i am suggesting is to try to trade for a few under the radar pitchers that could turn into excellant pitchers that will not cost anything major.
i don’t need to see olsons home and road era because a lot of pitchers sucked and then became cy young winners,maybe all of them.santanna was a rule 5 pick.cole hammels stunk for a while and now he might be the best pitcher in baseball.
how can it hurt to trade for pitchers that won’t cost a lot of money or prospects when the yankees are signing pavano’s,randy johnsons and on and on as long as they have decent stuff?
i am not saying to do this with all 5 or 15 pitchers just a few of them to fill out the rotation to go with sabathia,wang,joba.
it can be done,it has been done.
i don’t wan’t to lose hughes but you will see over the next few years and this offseason a few pitchers that will be worth it,i guarantee it and i bet the yankees don’t budge.
we could of gotten garza for very little.i don’t care about young being a number one pick.we could of at least tried.
Cano was just setting himself up in ‘08 for the come back player of the year award in ‘09
Where did Hamilton go after the ASG? It was like he barely added to his HR-RBI totals in the 2nd half.
HR Derby wore him out a bit. He hit 11 HR, 35 RBI in the 2nd half so it’s safe to say the HR derby wore him out.
vinny-b
October 28th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
NYY passed on Hamilton for Josh Phelps
wow.
________________________________________________________
There’s a slight flaw in your theory, there. The Cubs drafted before the Yankees, which meant that the Yanks had no chance to select Hamilton. There are a lot of reasons to criticize Cashman, but, at least be correct.
“Do not trade Cano. He had a terrible year this year, yet he had better numbers than BJ Upton”
Upton: .273 9 67 .383 .401 .784
Cano: .271 14 72 .305 .410. .715
Upton had a much higher .OBP which explains his higher OPS.
other than that Cano did have better power numbers.
Bronx Jeers
October 28th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
“Cano is a future potential hall of famer, IMO.â€
I wouldn’t trade Cano either and I think he can become a great player but to mention him as a PHOF player is just in the realm of the ridiculous at this point.
Come back to us after he puts up 10 consistent years.
—————————————————
What, I’m not allowed that opinion? Cano is loaded with talent. He gets compared to Rod Carew. He batted .342 one season. He can get better.
And I don’t want to move him out.
Hadn’t they also signed Damon to a 4 year deal months earlier?
———————————————
It doesn’t matter he wasn’t on the board. It’s like saying why didn’t the Lakers pick Chris Paul or Greg Oden they weren’t on the board.
1) CC Sabathia – Angels
2) Manny Ramirez – Dodgers
3) AJ Burnett – Cardinals
4) Mark Teixeira – Yankees
5) Derek Lowe – Mets
6) Bobby Abreu – Mets
7) Jason Giambi – Jays
Mike Mussina – Old folks home
9) Ben Sheets – Boston
10)Carl Pavano – life guard at a beach somewhere
The Yanks are trying to simultaneously:
– rebuild by developing home-grown talent,
– stay competitive every year by signing expensive free agents and trading for established players as needed, and
– cut payroll
There’s no way to do all three.
SteveB if Long can fix him, he could hit .350 – .380 I seriously believe that, because Robi made an adjustment to his swing the final weeks and then took off. He’s a Manny type batter no emotions actually will make him a dangerous clutch player in the future if he gets it right.
Yanks in 2010-
It took me a while to do the research, but, did you root for these players in 1978?
Goose Gossage, Don Gullett, Catfish Hunter, Chris Chamblis, Paul Blair and Reggie Jackson?
Or how about these players in 1996?
David Cone, Dwight Gooden, Jimmy Key, Ramiro Mendoza, Kenny Rogers, Darryl Strawberry, Joe Girardi, Wade Boggs, Mariano Duncan, and Tim Raines?
Mercenaries All. David Cone is the ultimate “hired gun.â€
You put together the best team you can however you can. The Yankees are lucky to have money to utilize free agency when trades are either unavailable or not sufficient to fill needs.
___________________
I didnt root for the players in 1978…but I’m sure my parents did…that’s why I rooted for them in 1996
All the players you mentioned in 1996 were mercenaries…but they were obtained through deft GM decisions, trades, FA signings, player development
The suggestions I see on this post mention signing (CC, TEX, Manny, and AJ)….my point was why would anyone want to root for a team with a 250 million dollar payroll?
It’s like watching a heavy weight fight a welter weight…
Now, money does not always translate into wins, but it sure does translate into envy..
I see sub .500 teams come to play the Yankees and they look like they are playing for the WS…becuase they hate us
Signing every free agent in the market does more harm to your team than good…unless we are trying to win a fantasy league here
bru,
Imagine a world where you could produce 5 Wangs and Jobas. And they could actually pitch in the AL East. And they didn’t cost you $20M unless you wanted to keep them.
Your trade for the next big thing is intriguing, but your examples are based on hindsight.
Who’s the next big thing? And please, no Jergens. Which 5th starter struggled this year, but is due for a breakout season next year. And the team is willing to give him up to the Yankees?
Garza was a head case until mid’08. No one saw him becoming the “ace” of that staff.
“HR Derby wore him out a bit”
40 some swings, and you are worn out for 3 months? People do marathons closer together than that!!
BTW I’m going to be a huge Nets and Blazers backer this year.
Mel your Lakers are in trouble tonight, the new daddy is coming to LA
Mark, it wears your shoulders and torso out, he wasn’t just hitting 314 shots he was going for the downs.
“He batted .342 one season.”
Batted .271 one season too. Both were probably flukes. Truth about him going forward is quite likely somewhere in the middle. Say around .305.
“santanna was a rule 5 pick.cole hammels stunk for a while and now he might be the best pitcher in baseball.”
Hamels was never bad.
http://www.baseball-reference......co01.shtml
The Twins, at that time, could afford to stash a player like Johan on their 25 man roster.
mark-
If you look at the last few hr derbys the winner has gone on to have a poor second half.
David Wright not the same
Bobby Abreau- lost his power swing
Josh Hamilton
Sorry, Vinny…that wasn’t meant for you…only the one that made the statement. I see that Gayle beat me to it, anyway.
Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
October 28th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
SteveB if Long can fix him, he could hit .350 – .380 I seriously believe that, because Robi made an adjustment to his swing the final weeks and then took off. He’s a Manny type batter no emotions actually will make him a dangerous clutch player in the future if he gets it right.
———————————————–
I agree 100%. Cano is a batting champion just waiting to happen. Can you imagine if he gets just a little better discipline at the plate? (Well I guess you did!) Also I agree with your moniker 100% too. Thanks!
austin jackson might not be a number one pick but if you package him with another player or two he will land a decent pitcher.
if we had tabata and used him right before his tantrums and package him with another prospect or two we could of landed someone.
what i am saying is that timing is everything.i am not saying trying to trade for garza now but before he became huge we could have gotten him.
would i like to see all our prospects make it? yes but the reality is that most of them do not so we have to know wich ones to keep and wich ones to trade.
Brandon,
I’d be scared, if it was daddy, not grandpa.
Just kidding. They say Oden’s going to be quite the defensive player. Read an article about there’s no bounty (to dunk on Oden) in the L lockerroom, but D-fish did say that all the players in the league look forward to welcoming the next big thing. Should be fun.
So excited. Real basketball in 7 hours.
Brandon,
I know what you are saying, but he is still a young man. I am sure he was not still tired in September from one night in July. 80 year old Hugh Hefner recovers faster from strenuous evenings.
I also enjoy all of the people who still blame Abreu’s 3+ year power loss on one home run derby. It could have messed up his swing for a week, or a month; but 3 years? Gimme a break!
Fredo, we’re splitting hairs. Also, I don’t know if you saw my note above, that the 2nd half of the season Cano batted .307. No one noticed it because he was so bad the 1st half. So he only had one-half of a bad season out of 4. This guy is a career .315-.320 hitter.
Gotta go, gonna watch the snow during lunch. It’s actually snowing pretty hard in central NJ. Not sticking. Great baseball weather. Let’s play 2.
Fredo,
Thanks for that. No FA pitchers to the Yankees?
And Pavano can’t be a life guard. Cue up, “Blisters in the Sun.”
If ARod’s contract pays him for hitting home runs, and ARod is greedy/self-centered/team-hating enough to hit more home runs only because he wants to get paid … isn’t his incentive clause a good thing, because it will make him hit more home runs?
Home runs always benefit the team. I don’t really care why a player hits them. The umpire doesn’t quiz you on your motives when you cross home plate and void the home run if you don’t answer like a good teammate should.
I agree 100%. Cano is a batting champion just waiting to happen. Can you imagine if he gets just a little better discipline at the plate? (Well I guess you did!) Also I agree with your moniker 100% too. Thanks!
————————————————-
On the moniker Thanks some people don’t that’s thier opinion. On Robi people don’t understand he hit .342 w/o discipline, hit above .450 in ST w/o discipline, one plus w/ him is he is tough to strike out and once he gets his balance at the plate he puts bat on ball and at a high percentage at that. Robi is a very, very talented hitter, if he shortens his swing, closes his stance which could effect how he sees strikes/balls better he has MVP written all over him check his numbers in Yankee wins and people will understand one bad year doesn’t change his outlook.
Steve B;
We’ll agreee to disagree. Players with Cano’s lack of plate dscipline do not hit .330+ and win batting titles. The Carew comparison is bogus because Carew had the better batting eye. Don’t get me started on the M.Ramirez comparison someone else made earlier. Beyond ridiculous.
Mark in Tampa
October 28th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Brandon,
I know what you are saying, but he is still a young man. I am sure he was not still tired in September from one night in July. 80 year old Hugh Hefner recovers faster from strenuous evenings.
I also enjoy all of the people who still blame Abreu’s 3+ year power loss on one home run derby. It could have messed up his swing for a week, or a month; but 3 years? Gimme a break!
______________________________________________________
People need to get over the idea that Abreu was a home run hitter. He wasn’t and isn’t. he had two freak power years and hasn’t had over 22 but one other time (25). He’s a 20-22 homer a year hitter…like O’Neill.
If Jimmy Rollins says it then it must be so lol
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
Jeremy
His point is he shouldn’t only try to hit HRs when a single might do the trick. Personally I think Alex is more concerned with being the best which means hitting for average as well as power but others don’t hold that belief so the HR bonuses bother them.
PHILADELPHIA — Jimmy Rollins, a friend of superstar free-agent pitcher CC Sabathia dating back to their upbringing outside Oakland, Calif., and one of the best prognosticators in the game considering his lofty and correct predictions for his own Phillies, didn’t hesitate when I asked him where he thought Sabathia would wind up.
“New York, American League,” Rollins, an Alameda, Calif. product, said. “They’ve got enough money, and they need him.”
Nice lol
I’m all for a player hitting homeruns. But when they try to hard, it can hinder the team if they abandon a good approach at the plate.
There were times that we needed a ground ball to first or a sac fly to score a run. But, we’d get strikeouts or pop-ups.
And if he’s going to earn millions ($6M?) for each milestone, oh boy. Remember how painful it was to get to 500? Not in that it took so long, but it seemed like he was wound up so tight.
But, yes, you want him to hit the milestones because they help us and probably help Alex, too.
bru,
You are stating a truism (a team should aquire under-the- radar players for cheap before they break out and become known commodities) as if the Yankees can just go out and take advantage of it. Teams look for under-the-radar players all the time. The reason they can’t find those players easily is because they’re under the radar!
The Yankees, like any team, try this tactic all the time. Wright for Britton, Clippard for Albaladejo, and Proctor for Betemit come to mind. None of these guys broke out with the Yankees (although Albaladejo still has potential).
If a guy shows promise, you have to give up something of value to get him. If a guy doesn’t show much promise, you don’t have to give up so much, but you’re probably going to be left with a lousy player.
It’s just not so easy to make the kind of deals you’re advocating.
GB7,
I’m not complaining about Abreu not hitting 30 every year, just pointing out what every national and ESPN broacaster seems to parrot.
Rodriguez isn’t trying to hit home runs every time up. He’s trying to hit the ball hard…to drive it, like evry other player does. It’s doubtful that he’s going to chage that.
That’s a good point about the incentives changing ARod’s approach, and I hope it’s not true. I have to doubt it (after all, the guy doesn’t need the incentive money to feed his kids), but who can say.
I suspect that if ARod feels pressure to hit home runs, it has to do with living up to the expectation the he routinely have 50+ home run, MVP seasons.
Mark in Tampa
October 28th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
GB7,
I’m not complaining about Abreu not hitting 30 every year, just pointing out what every national and ESPN broacaster seems to parrot.
______________________________________________________
That’s the trouble with “parroting” what te media says. They don’t feel it’s necessary t check thefacts. They’re above that.
Steve B,
Cano = Carew ?
Both hit leftie, Both 2b, Both talented hitters, similar swings?
The biggest difference and the one that currently negates the HOF arguement is that with Carew you never had to guess which version was going to show up to the park.
Carew was an 18 time all star. Carew got better as he matured. Cano’s gotten worse.
I honor your right to an opinion but wouldn’t you agree that the Carew/HOF talk is just a bit pre-mature?
mel-Free Tacos on Tuesday
October 28th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
bru,
Imagine a world where you could produce 5 Wangs and Jobas. And they could actually pitch in the AL East. And they didn’t cost you $20M unless you wanted to keep them.
Your trade for the next big thing is intriguing, but your examples are based on hindsight.
Who’s the next big thing? And please, no Jergens. Which 5th starter struggled this year, but is due for a breakout season next year. And the team is willing to give him up to the Yankees?
Garza was a head case until mid’08. No one saw him becoming the “ace†of that staff.
————————————————————
it does not matter what garza was it matters what he turned into.
you are missing the whole point.
i was screaming for garza when the trade wen’t down.
he has great stuff,always did,read the scouting reports.that is how you find the diamond instead of waiting until a pitcher becomes great and then saying there is no way the yankees can trade for him.
i’ll give you garza,olsen,billingsley when it was possible before he became huge.
i think olsen would be a good gamble but my point is the yankees have to do their homework and look at the numbers of pitchers and try to find one or two,not a bunch that could turn into decent pitchers.
“SteveB if Long can fix him, he could hit .350 – .380 I seriously believe that, because Robi made an adjustment to his swing the final weeks and then took off.”
Aside from April, September, the “adjustment” month, was Cano’s worst of the season.
carmona is another example
With all the problems we experienced with a defensive liability at 1B, I don’t know how ANYone could even think about pursuing Manny Ramirez to play LF.
Sure the guy can hit if he feels like it, but having a total screw up fooling around out in LF is far worse than having a guy with marginal hands & little range at 1B. Manny would have to hit .400/45/140 to make up for his glove.
I’ve said before that overall (considering offense & defense) Hideki Matsui would be better to have in LF than Manny Ramirez. He’s younger by a few years and he’d come at about half the price too. Ramirez isn’t all that fast … he can’t cover much more ground than Matsui can, if he can cover as much at all. And you know Matsui will give you his best effort whereas Manny has proven otherwise.
Part of the money saved by not bringing Giambi back and not signing Manny would be better spent on two free agents at P, one at 1B and maybe one OF. The OF could be acquired by trading Damon (only because he has no arm) and someone else. The rest of the $ saved could go towards scouting & signing the best prospects.
Matsui will likely DH a lot and its sounding like Posada will DH more than he’s expecting to. To think of Manny as a DH would be foolish. We had too many DH’s this year. And in case anyone didn’t learn from that experience, it didn’t work.
That being said … I wonder why (at this moment) Matsui’s name isn’t listed on the roster on the Yanks official web site.
Garza was 8-13 4.47 in Minnesota before the trade to Tampa and he was 11-9, 3.70 this season. Don’t overreact to his two excellent starts against Boston (2-0, 1.38). In his starts against Chicago and Philadelphia (0-1, 6.75) he’s been less than impressive.
Scott Olsen is an excellent thought. The Marlins are interested in moving him to make room for Andrew Miller and he has a world of talent despite negative trends with his K-rate. He would potentially be a high reward acquisition.
john danks had a 5.50 era in 2007 and was terrible Gavin Floyd.once again not now but only a year or two ago when their numbers were like hughes and kennedy’s but scouts said their stuff was good.
homework,scouting the pitchers instead of signing huge contracts and only a few pitchers at a time not the whole staff.
Correction – .400/50/150
If he’s DH about 1/3 of the time.
Way too early to compare Cano to Carew. Cano is not regularly an All-star yet, HOF is way distant, but:
Carew didn’t have his second 30 double season until 7th year. Didn’t have 60 RBI until 7th year. Didn’t score 90 until 7th year. Didn’t have 200 hits until-any guesses? Yes, his 7th year.
His second big league season-.273 BA 26 walks 91Ks .312 OBP.
Cano this year-.271 BA 26 walks 65ks .305 OBP
Let’s have a little patience with a great talent.
86w183
October 28th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Garza was 8-13 4.47 in Minnesota before the trade to Tampa and he was 11-9, 3.70 this season. Don’t overreact to his two excellent starts against Boston (2-0, 1.38). In his starts against Chicago and Philadelphia (0-1, 6.75) he’s been less than impressive.
Scott Olsen is an excellent thought. The Marlins are interested in moving him to make room for Andrew Miller and he has a world of talent despite negative trends with his K-rate. He would potentially be a high reward acquisition
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those are exactly the types of pitchers the yankees need in addition to wang,sabathia,joba.the pitchers who are getting better and better and will not be let go by their teams now because they are good,cheap,eat innings.
Imagine if we signed Manny, re-signed Abreu, and had to play Damon in center because Gardner and Melky couldn’t crack .200. We would have the worst defensive outfield in baseball and it wouldn’t be close.
“I wonder why (at this moment) Matsui’s name isn’t listed on the roster on the Yanks official web site.”
If you mean the MLB.com site, he is listed, but only at DH, not OF.
Abreu is an excellent choice for a DH…you can bank .300, 20+, 100+ per annum. Unfortunately, the absence of sensible planning by Cashman et al has the roster larded down with past prime time overpaid wastrels who can’t do it defensively anymore and must vy for the DH spot….Matsui, Damon, Posada to name the prime 3. Abreu too fits into that category as his fielding is an abomination, incessantly causing Mussina (and others) heart palpitations every time a ball is hit to “frightfield”. Since his contract is up, he will be the one to go, and properly so.
Word has it that the Cubs are interested in signing him. Can you imagine Booby chasing a ball into the ivy? Hilarious!!
Jeremy
With that OF, we’d have Manny be the cutoff man for Damon on a hit to either gap, but Cano would have to go out as an alternate cutoff man / backup in case Manny couldn’t find the relay man (Jeter) to get the ball to third.
That would be on balls that are supposed to be singles. Every team in the league would know the scenario so they’d be running for doubles & triples on anything Damon has to run to the gaps for.
They’d ALL have to hit .400/50/150 to make up for their defense.
“Can you imagine Booby chasing a ball into the ivy? Hilarious!!”
They better not let him see that there are actually bricks behind that ivy until he signs the deal!!
Mel: good afternoon : )
you have mail.
Vinny B,
I’m headed for the beach…I’ll let you know if there are any IPK sightings doing the frisbee thing with his choco lab!!
Jeremy
October 28th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
bru,
You are stating a truism (a team should aquire under-the- radar players for cheap before they break out and become known commodities) as if the Yankees can just go out and take advantage of it. Teams look for under-the-radar players all the time. The reason they can’t find those players easily is because they’re under the radar!
The Yankees, like any team, try this tactic all the time. Wright for Britton, Clippard for Albaladejo, and Proctor for Betemit come to mind. None of these guys broke out with the Yankees (although Albaladejo still has potential).
If a guy shows promise, you have to give up something of value to get him. If a guy doesn’t show much promise, you don’t have to give up so much, but you’re probably going to be left with a lousy player.
It’s just not so easy to make the kind of deals you’re advocating.
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cashman needs to be working the phones with certain pitchers in mind like olsen and others and ask them what they wan’t in return and go from there.
how many players that the yankees get are their choice out of the good young ones?
i am just suggesting a few pitchers to take the pressure off not trying to trade for billingsley,garza now.
i can’t remember the last young pitcher the yankees gambled on like garza,danks,floyd not including their own farm guys.i am talking about young pitchers who do not have good numbers but have potential,here is a perfect example.
In the first big trade at baseball’s winter meetings, the Chicago White Sox sent starting pitcher Freddy Garcia to the Philadelphia Phillies on Wednesday night for right-hander Gavin Floyd and a player to be named.
give me a break.
Trade Matsui and Betemit to the Mariners for Miggie C? (Then sign Manny?)
who’s miggie c?
SteveB -
Ahh. I double checked on Cone. He was a trade in the middle of the 1995 season, but then became a free agent after the season and the Yankees signed him. So, he was both a trade acquisition and a retained free agent.
My computer’s fluky today, so I didn’t re-check Chambliss. Perhaps a similar situation?
bru
October 28th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
86w183
October 28th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Garza was 8-13 4.47 in Minnesota before the trade to Tampa and he was 11-9, 3.70 this season. Don’t overreact to his two excellent starts against Boston (2-0, 1.38). In his starts against Chicago and Philadelphia (0-1, 6.75) he’s been less than impressive.
Scott Olsen is an excellent thought. The Marlins are interested in moving him to make room for Andrew Miller and he has a world of talent despite negative trends with his K-rate. He would potentially be a high reward acquisition——————————————————————————————
those are exactly the types of pitchers the yankees need in addition to wang,sabathia,joba.the pitchers who are getting better and better and will not be let go by their teams now because they are good,cheap,eat innings.
____________________________________________________
Yeah…every team is looking for an over priced NL pitcher with a 4.70 plus ERA to run out there. He’s not exactly the type of pitcher a team needs in the AL East.
bru -
Just one thing. How do you know Cashman is not working the phones for all these “under-the-radar” things? How do you know for certain he didn’t inquire about Garza? We don’t find out ALL of what goes on behind closed doors. Especially if it’s under the radar.
vinny-b,
Good afternoon.
Did you put a hyphen in the addy? I re-did the post to show that it was a hyphen and not a line break.
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don’t forget to get your taco.
Doreen
October 28th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
bru –
Just one thing. How do you know Cashman is not working the phones for all these “under-the-radar†things? How do you know for certain he didn’t inquire about Garza? We don’t find out ALL of what goes on behind closed doors. Especially if it’s under the radar.
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because i personally can’t remember the yankees involved in any trade for any pitchers who are similar despite having pitching problems for years or landing any of them for years when it would be crazy to think they had no shot at at least a few.
all i hear is about expensive fa or players that had one good year or 500 lifetime records like pavano.
we would of heard about all of them.
“How do you know for certain he didn’t inquire about Garza? We don’t find out ALL of what goes on behind closed doors. Especially if it’s under the radar”
Good point. We don’t know. What we do know is that Cashman had no 21 year old, .288 hitting outfielder with 185 hits, 50+ extra basehits and 90+ RBI lying around.
Doreen
October 28th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
SteveB –
Ahh. I double checked on Cone. He was a trade in the middle of the 1995 season, but then became a free agent after the season and the Yankees signed him. So, he was both a trade acquisition and a retained free agent.
My computer’s fluky today, so I didn’t re-check Chambliss. Perhaps a similar situation?
_____________________________________________________
Yeah, Chambliss was an early season late April/early May trade from Cleveland in ‘74….they also managed to talk them out of Dick Tidrow in the trade. NYY ripped off Nettles from Cleveland in November of ‘72.
and i don’t hear about cashman inquiring about any right now.
we would of heard that cashman called the marlins about olsen but the marlins wanted too much,something along those lines.
at least try something different for one or two pitchers,that’s all.
it would be nice to hear that the yankees tried to get a young pitcher with potential.
usually they don’t get paid a lot so financially it wouldn’t hurt compared to signing pavano for 4 years and him not pitching at all at the cost of 40 million dollars.
Fredo -
Yup!
bru
October 28th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
and i don’t hear about cashman inquiring about any right now.
we would of heard that cashman called the marlins about olsen but the marlins wanted too much,something along those lines.
at least try something different for one or two pitchers,that’s all.
it would be nice to hear that the yankees tried to get a young pitcher with potential.
usually they don’t get paid a lot so financially it wouldn’t hurt compared to signing pavano for 4 years and him not pitching at all at the cost of 40 million dollars.
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It stands to reason that if it was “under the radar” you wouldn’t hear about it, or, it wouldn’t be “under the radar”. Most of Cashman’s deals come out of the blue. You hear about them AFTER the trade.
bru -
But we don’t hear about everything. Scenario: Cash or one of his “people” thinks a particular player might be a good fit for the Yankees. Thinks about what the Yankees might give up. Calls team in question. Mentions what he’s thinking, maybe asks what it would take. Other team says, either, “no, we’re not thinking about trading so and so right now,” or “we’d be looking for a little more than that.”
Team number two was having the same thoughts, made the same call, and the other team says, “hmm, we weren’t thinking necesarily of trading so and so, but your offer sounds pretty good.”
Or something of that nature.
If the deal doesn’t happen, a dead-end call, so to speak, why would we hear about it? Especially if it involves trading players you’d rather they didn’t know they were on the trading block?
Why is that unfathomable to you?
That Cash and co. might actually be doing more than sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
They have far more information that we do here. And far more at stake. And they do have to consider that most inquiries must remain secret (from the press, from the fans, from the players) in order to be able to do business in the future.
Bru, I take it that you want to trade for Olsen (Why is beyond me). Who do they trade? Your favorite target, Cano?
Fredo Corleone
October 28th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
“How do you know for certain he didn’t inquire about Garza? We don’t find out ALL of what goes on behind closed doors. Especially if it’s under the radarâ€
Good point. We don’t know. What we do know is that Cashman had no 21 year old, .288 hitting outfielder with 185 hits, 50+ extra basehits and 90+ RBI lying around.
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melky had 100 fewer at bats than young in 2007 ,37 less hits,5 less hr,20 less rbi,15 points less on ba,melky had a higher obp,.17 lower on slg,.05 lower on ops,very similar numbers.
the twins might have taken melky along with not too much more,point being is we heard nothing about the yankees being involved and they never are involved for young pitchers with potential.
Bru:
Melky’s ceiling was far lower than Young’s. Not even close.
Twins also got Brandon Harris, a 450 or so AB utility type in that deal. Yanks didn’t have that to offer either.
fyi… when I went on the Yankee Stadium tour a couple years ago someone asked about the jackets in the dugout, and the tour guide told us it is super cold down there cuz they blast the air conditioning…
GreenBeret7
October 28th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Bru, I take it that you want to trade for Olsen (Why is beyond me). Who do they trade? Your favorite target, Cano?
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no.i would not trade cano unless it is for a close to or can’t miss pitcher.
Doreen
October 28th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
bru –
But we don’t hear about everything. Scenario: Cash or one of his “people†thinks a particular player might be a good fit for the Yankees. Thinks about what the Yankees might give up. Calls team in question. Mentions what he’s thinking, maybe asks what it would take. Other team says, either, “no, we’re not thinking about trading so and so right now,†or “we’d be looking for a little more than that.â€
Team number two was having the same thoughts, made the same call, and the other team says, “hmm, we weren’t thinking necesarily of trading so and so, but your offer sounds pretty good.â€
Or something of that nature.
If the deal doesn’t happen, a dead-end call, so to speak, why would we hear about it? Especially if it involves trading players you’d rather they didn’t know they were on the trading block?
Why is that unfathomable to you?
That Cash and co. might actually be doing more than sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
They have far more information that we do here. And far more at stake. And they do have to consider that most inquiries must remain secret (from the press, from the fans, from the players) in order to be able to do business in the future
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i am glad that you broke down how cashman does his trades but there is not one example that i can remember that the yankees were involved in for a good young pitcher.there might be some but i can’t remember any at all for several years.
the yankees do a terrible job in getting pitchers especially young ones.all they do is react when it is too late.
sabathia will be a colossal mistake if we get him,mark my words.
they are doing better in drafting and with wang and joba but it would be nice to see them have a pitcher thaat they traded for without giving up too much turn into a gavin floyd.
bru
October 28th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Doreen
October 28th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
bru –
But we don’t hear about everything
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you mean we don’t hear about anything because they never try.
every single trade rumor get’s leaked and bounced around the world in seconds and you are trying to tell me that we would not know about almost everything?
i don’t believe any of that.
the yankees stink at recognizing good pitchers before they break out.
this is why they have not been competitive.
i am not talking about their farm system wich has gotten better i am talking about garza,floyd,danks and 50 other pitchers over the last few years that they could have gotten for peanuts and not much more.
don’t look at their numbers now,look at them when they were bad.
the teams that took a chance for very little money are the teams that compete.
with danks and floyd the white sox turned their team around completely and it didn’t cost them a fortune.
now they have 2 lights out pitchers for many years.
and they did it almost overnight.
bru
October 28th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
GreenBeret7
October 28th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Bru, I take it that you want to trade for Olsen (Why is beyond me). Who do they trade? Your favorite target, Cano?
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no.i would not trade cano unless it is for a close to or can’t miss pitcher.
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If they were young “close to or can’t miss” pitchers, they wouldn’t be available and if as most people, including you, have said, that Cano has issues or isn’t that good, then no team is going to take him. What happens if NYY trades for a young “close to or can’t mis” pitcher and he blows ot his elbow or drops off of the face of the earth? Who will you blame?
GB 7 —
I have seen Olsen pitch several times on TV and once in person. His stuff is a lot better than his results, and he did improve a lot last year from the previous season which is why he might be worth a try. Don’t have any clue what the Marlins are looking for.
Chisox got Danks for McCarthy in a trade of two highly regarded pitching prospects. McCarthy has not produced, making the deal very one-sided at this point. the Floyd acquisition was giving up a proven starter that Philly wanted to contend. the Phils knew they were giving up a big time talent, but you don’t get 17-game winners for spare parts.
The Yankees pick up of Rasner kinda fits in this category. Highly regarded, got hurt. A comeback trail and still rather young (25 at the time of acquisition). He could be a useful long reliever for someone.
Regarding Manny:
Its quite naive to brush off Manny Ramirez with the statement like “the Yankees have greater needs than a leftfielder”.
The Yankees Post Season record since 2002 suggests that one of the Yankees greatest needs, besides an Ace starting pitcher, is a Big Game Clutch Hitter. Despite being one of the biggest “blockheads” in MLB, Manny is THE best clutch hitter in baseball. Stick him in right field at Yankee Stadium and he’d do no worse defensively than the current RFer.
Mr. Poodle, no racial undertones about my commentary about Felix. It’s a joke about a family business- going from the gardener to Vice President of one of the World’s great sports franchises. The Steinbrenners control the team so they could hire whoever they want. But we as fans and the journalists, have pretty much made high profile Yankee employees fair game for our comments. And in regards to the “shrinking Steinbrenner fortunes” that Pete referred to, they don’t worry, like most Americans about losing their job which is their sole source of income and their health care. Americans in that situation may have to pick a gardening job but not the Steinbrenners.
No, Felix never stole my girlfriend. But if he ever left Jessica Steinbrenner, he could have my ex.
But Newsday calls Felix a “bully and a boor”
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....350.column
i hope that is true about manuel! it’d be like chris chellios switching from the blackhawks to the red wings, cept manny is alot better at his respective sport
I love Jennifer Lopez. Badly she is not my Girlfriend
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