Mussina will make his decision soon
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Nov 17, 2008 
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Mike Mussina knows he has a decision to make and it’s coming soon.
His agent, Arn Tellem, said in an e-mail this afternoon that he expects Moose to make a decision by the end of this week or early next week.
At this stage, it’s not about the money. It’s about whether he wants to commit to the time away from his family. Had Moose gone 12-12, I bet he would be officially retired by now. But winning 20 games complicated the process.
I still firmly believe he will retire and have yet to find anybody with the Yankees who thinks otherwise. If there is one player who can walk away after a great season, it’s Mike. Baseball needs him more than he needs baseball.
doesn’t sound like you’re a 100% anymore pete. you were dead certain weeks ago that moose was a goner…
Please come back. Please Come Back. Please Come Back.
Ed:
Re: the Affeldt deal is it not 2 years 8 M total? 8 mil a year for middle relief? Seems steep
I’d like to believe that this lay off means that Mussina has thought about it more than we originally believed. Perhaps there is more of a chance for a return than I thought. Whatever happens, Moose, you are one of my favorite Yankees ever and I will wear your jersey in honor. If you come back, I’ll go nuts.
Nick:
I am pretty sure you aren’t the only Nick in San Francisco. Was up there again this past weekend seemed like enough people to produce 2 Nicks
EDUB,
its 2 years, 16 mil. so 8 million per year.
I like Moose, but I think he should retire. Go out on top. If he doesn’t make it to the HOF, the voters are morons. I think his stats are good enough when you consider when and how he got his wins, etc.
Ed:
Are you sure?
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/ar.....iants.html
That would mean 8 M total the way I read it. Maybe I’m wrong though
I wonder if Moose speeding up his decision has anything to do with the offer to CC plus the reported pending offers to AJ and Lowe?
EDUB: I never suggested that I might be the only Nick within the confines of the City and County of San Francisco.
But the universe of potential Nicks in SF who also read and comment on LoHud is much smaller. How many of those did you encounter during your visit?
Wave, I certainly hope he speeds up his decision to stop the Yankees from signing AJ.
If he does, I’ll like him even more.
Moose and AJ are not related. Even if Moose decides not to retire, there are a total of 3 spots open in the rotation.
Nick:
Well of course I was being sarcastic. However, you underestimate the amount of people who read but do not comment here. There are already 500+ members in this facebook group and not nearly that many regulars on here. I, for one, read every day but rarely post as I expect many others do. Add that to the amount of Yankees fans there are up in NorCal and I think its pretty reasonable to have a NY fan in SF named Nick IMO.
i rather have moose back for another year or 2 than burnett for some dumb amount of money
Regarding Moose, I’m still guardedly optimistic and I hope he ends up valuing another shot or two at a ring more than going for 300.
I really hope that Cashman has adequately communicated the team’s interest to Moose (provided such strong interest is there) so that there’s no doubt in his mind.
He’ll retire. Even if he somehow comes back, he’s due for a bad season, a la 2007.
Besides, Mussina was always a bad karma player- winning 19 games a couple times, never winning a Cy Young, coming close to a perfect game, no-hitter, World Series. Yankees will win a championship now that he and Giambi are gone.
We need new people.
EDUB: you may be right. I may be crazy. But it just may be a lunitic you’re looking for.
EDUB:
The Reds efforts to retain three free agent veterans from their bullpen took another hit on Monday as left-hander Jeremy Affeldt signed a two-year, $8 million contract with the Giants.
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/ar.....iants.html
EDUB- i’m a perfect example of a loyal reader and rare commenter. maybe pete could post the amount of readers he gets per day
Laura,
I agree 100% it’s ridiculous that there is even a debate when it comes to Moose for the HOF. Compare his numbers to a lot of HOF pitchers, and his are right there. It’s scary how close Moose’s numbers are to Jim Palmer. Yet Palmer was elected on the first ballot with a 92% vote, and some people say Moose is “Borderline”. Doesn’t make any sense.
Nick:
Haha keep it up I am sure most of us non-commenters do enjoy the humor you bring here.
Jay, Mussina coming back leaves one less spot for AJ. Signing AJ Burnett will be an enormous mistake that the Yankees will regret for years.
Jeff, are you seriously holding winning 19 games against the man?
Ed:
I posted that too. Doesn’t that mean 8 Million total? Do they post AAV for the deals usually? I read that as 4M/year deal for 2 years. He’s not even a closer. 8 Million a year?
Jay destro-
CC + AJ + Lowe = 3.
I would love to have Moose back, best combo of performance and short-term committment. I would much rather have long-time Yankees in Moose and Pettitte back for 1-2 years than outsiders like Burnett and Lowe for 4-5 or 3-4 years respectively. You get so much more flexibility with Moose and Pettitte, and you might even get better performance.
I welcome back Moose in a second… I think you can win with a 5 of Sabathia, Wang, Joba, Moose and Pettitte.
If Moose decides to come back, I wonder what the Yanks will offer him. Based on his performance in 2008, he’s entitled to a lot of money. One year for $15 million? Two years at $25 million? Some sort of option arrangement?
EDUB,
then I don’t know. probably it is 4 million each then.
EDUB: thanks.
Add me to the chorus who would much rather bring Moose back for 1-2 years than sign any of the non-CC names we’re all aware of.
I think he’ll return, and if not to the Yankees then to a contender…3 years w the Phillies?
Supposedly he doesn’t want to pitch in the NL.
In reference to the bullpen post – I think Brian Fuentes would make an excellent eighth inning guy. He may want to stay a closer but maybe a bigger offer will get him to switch roles. Not to mention, he is really on the border of setup man and closer for his career. I dont think it would hurt to see what kind of contract he is looking for. I dont like ramirez or veras taking over for joba;s eighth inning role. I think we need a proven guy – fuentes was pretty solid in colorado meaning he could succeed in the AL East as the eighth inning guy. I wanted to sign him last off season and he had an even better yr last yr so I dont think it would hurt to give him a look. I know we have alot of bullpen options but i hate letting pitchers fight it out for the eighth inning role – its just too important a position as we have seen year in and year out. I really dont want to see a parade of relievers trying out for the eighth inning at the start of the season.
yes, and we havent signed any of those three yet. so figure that much out. moose and the other free agents have no relation until one signs.
It’s $ 4 M a year… Affeldt wouldn’t get more than Marte. Most of the time the number in a media report is a total value, not annual.
Offer Mussina $ 12 M. He was great value last year, but lousy value in ’07. Pettite the same. Take both and use savings on the lineup or take one and go after AJ Burnett. Either way even with CC the payroll will be lower.
I’m not giving up on Teixiera until I have to.
And I think part of the reason they haven’t gone after Burnett or Lowe yet is that they want to see what Mussina does. If Mussina wants to come back, I think there’s a good chance the Yankees come to their senses and skip on Burnett. If he retires, I think we have the new Pavano.
jay-
There are plenty of chairs in musical chairs until the music stops. All I’m saying.
Whatever he decides, God bless the Moose. He’s one of my all-time favorite players and personalities, and I will always cherish his days in pinstripes.
I’m sitting on my “favorite Moose memories” for when he actually does retire (even if that’s 3 years down the line, hopefully it will be, would love to see him back)…but there are certainly plenty on my mind.
If he retires here’s to a great HOF career, if he stays here’s to 300 wins. Either way LONG LIVE THE MOOSE!!!!!
I’d love to have Moose back but then that means we HAVE to snub Andy. Both old guys coming back is working against the getting younger mantra. I’d say CC, Wang, Burnett, Moose, Joba would be pretty killer.
Maybe someone told him he probably doesn’t want to retire the same year Maddux, and possibly Griffey Smoltz and Glavine retire.
Matt, I’d much rather have Moose back than either AJ or CC either one. We might be able to go a year at a time with Moose. The others will lock up the roster for years. With CC, Wang and Joba, there’s only two available slots for years out, so either AJ or Lowe would only leave one slot over the next 3 years for all that pitching talent we are supposed to be developing.
Last week he said he would decide early this week, the week before his brother told Baltimore sports radio that he was going to announce something that week, and now his agent is saying next week… I think he wants to play.
“I think he’ll return, and if not to the Yankees then to a contender…3 years w the Phillies?”
If that’s the case offer arbitration, because Mussina has been classified as a type A. Would not give Mussina more than one year guaranteed. Did a great job last year, realized he couldn’t throw it up there anymore at 90+mph, and redid himself as a pitcher. However he’s a 6 inning pitcher, and requires 3-4 relief pitchers to hold a lead.
Affeldt given 4M/year, Biemel offered 4M/year, I’d say we got Marte at 4M/year as a better deal than the other two.
Still think we should sign Burnett, who seems over his arm trouble and can sling it at 96-98 mph, rather than Lowe who is an older groundball pitcher and a Boras client and will likely demand, and maybe get 15M/year x 3.
Al, I like the rest of that rotation, but I just think signing AJ would show that the team learned absolutely nothing from the Pavano and Wright debacle. And besides the enormous injury history, the supposedly great year Burnett had just wasn’t all that good.
Yankee Trader, why do you think Burnett is over his arm trouble?
“Affeldt given 4M/year, Biemel offered 4M/year, I’d say we got Marte at 4M/year as a better deal than the other two.”
Wrong, because we could have had 2 extra sandwich picks for Marte, plus we had to give Marte the extra year. One year is bound to go south out of three for a middle reliever.
Sound logic, SW. I agree if he was going to retire he would have done so already.
As much as I want to see him back though, the Yankees can’t give him 3 years. Also, I don’t think his return precludes Pettitte coming back, too. At least it shouldn’t, especially considering all this money and years they appear willing to give Lowe. Taking money and contract length into account, give me Moose or Pettitte (together or individually) before Lowe any day.
Al, I disagree if getting younger means signing FA pitchers on the wrong side of 30 to 4+ year deals. Moose and Andy afford the time to get a better idea of what we have with some of these kids in the system. This remains my dream rotation for next year:
CC
Wang
Moose
Pettitte
Joba & friends
Al from BK( Fit CC for pinstripes. Jets alone in first!)
November 17th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
“I’d love to have Moose back but then that means we HAVE to snub Andy. Both old guys coming back is working against the getting younger mantra. I’d say CC, Wang, Burnett, Moose, Joba would be pretty killer.”
My thoughts exactly.
No to Peavy and Sheets- both Tommy John possible surgery candidates with their mechanics-especially Peavy.
Who do you think leaked the 6 years/ 140 million contract offer to CC? If it was the agent, and he gets a bid for more money or years, he’ll just come back to Yankees and say we’re offered more and usually doesn’t say exactly how much.
The baseball world pretty much waits on the Sabathia outcome.
Once the floodgates open on his decision, the anxiety of Scott Boras eases up knowing what he can ratchet up for his clients. Teams can then begin the trading thoughts of the winter meeings in Vegas.
I think we all agree we’d like Mosse over Pettitte back in pinstripes (ironically we all thought the same exact thing last offseason). But the question is would you rather have
CC Wang Burnett/Lowe Pettitte Joba
or
CC Wang Moose Pettitte Joba
My pick would be the latter – and replace Pettitte and/or Moose with a 2010 free agent or Hughes/Kennedy.
Right on, Nick. I think people overemphasize the Yankees’ need to get younger with respect to pitching. That is more true of the lineup. Not that we want a bullpen full of pacemakers or something, but the Yankee org’s crop of pitching already HAS gotten a lot younger, and to me it is only a matter of filling 1 or 2 MLB spots with above average arms until the kids are ready to take them over in the future. Pettitte (especially) and Moose are perfect for that. Lowe, though? I have bad visions of him stinking it up at age 36 or 37 while Hughes, Brackman or McAllister is pounding on the door, but we’re stuck with Lowe because of his service time and nobody wanting to trade for his contract.
In the long run, bringing back Moose and Pettitte could be more helpful in keeping the Yanks adherent to their youth movement than not bringing them back would be.
I would fully understand if Moose walked away, but I hope he comes back to win a championship in NY. 20 wins is a great capper to his career, but a championship would be better.
“Yankee Trader, why do you think Burnett is over his arm trouble?”
Now that I read the following, I take back my comment:
Joseph DelGrippo at 10/14/2008 9:41 AM and is filed under New York Yankees
One of the major names in the possible pitcher free agent market is current Toronto Blue Jays right hander AJ Burnett. I say possible because Burnett is under contract for the next two years, but has the right to opt out of the contract after this past season. Coming off a 18-10 record with a league leading 231 strikeouts, Burnett is sure to have many suitors if he does opt out.
Those who want AJ Burnett to be a Yankee should check out the online picture of Burnett from Sunday’s October 12, 2008 NY Post article on Burnett/Sabathia by Joel Sherman.
Burnett’s mechanics reveal he cocks his wrist on his backswing and has his forearm down about the time when his front foot lands. This arm action is the worst mechanics a pitcher can possibly have.He, along with Jake Peavy, both have the “winged†arm action – a tremendous precursor to major elbow and shoulder problems. What happens is when hands are broken and the throwing hand begin to drop, a pitcher such as Burnett begins his backward rotation with the elbow instead of continuing to lead with the hand in a down, back and up motion. What then happens is that the throwing elbow gets higher than the shoulder at the point of front foot landing, leading to a timing problem. The arm then has to violently come forward very quickly to throw the ball.
This puts a big strain on the elbow AND the shoulder.
And while Burnett has had his history of elbow problems, his mechanics over the years have not changed. Burnett is destined for more elbow problems.
Other pitchers who have the same type of mechanics as Burnett include Chris Carpenter, Joel Zumaya, Shaun Marcum, BJ Ryan, Mark Prior and Kerry Wood. What do all these guys have in common with Burnett?
Tommy John surgery.
Burnett had Tommy John surgery in 2003, and then had a “less serious†elbow injury at the end of 2004. And don’t forget how Burnett was dismissed from the Florida Marlins at the end of the 2005 season because of his ranting outbursts against the team and his poor overall pitching down the stretch. At the end of 2005, Burnett lost six consecutive decisions, including four losses in five starts (with an ERA in that span of 5.93) during the Marlins’ failed wild-card chase that September.
Also, AJ Burnett doesn’t appear to be such a hard worker, who is willing to play hard all the time. Burnett has had three seasons in which he has thrown 200+ innings: the 2002, 2005 and 2008 seasons. All these seasons came in front of either an arbitration or free agency season. Not exactly a guy who is going all out all the time.
Burnett seems to be the pitching version of Manny Ramirez.
The only way I would take AJ Burnett on the Yankees is for Burnett to sign a one year contract and let him earn the next contract and continue with this process for several seasons. It could even be for $20 million each year and continue to go up every season. That way the injury bug won’t bite the Yankees that bad when Burnett gets shelved. But, we all know that won’t ever happen. It doesn’t seem Burnett is interested in winning a title, but only in getting richer.
Let’s see…a history of elbow problems, a bad attitude in Florida and not exactly a tireless worker. Definitely makes him destined to be a great Yankee. I hope Brian Cashman reads these blogs and comments and realizes Burnett wouldn’t work in New York.
Imagine Burnett having to answer reated questions why he is the second coming of Carl Pavano?
I don’t care how many times Burnett can beat the Red Sox. He’s only 11 games over .500 for his career – not exactly a great pitcher. One good season before pending free agency is the worst time you can sign a player.
Yanks should stay far away from AJ Burnett.
Cor Shep: definitely the latter. no contest.
Even if Moose retires and you insert Garland in his spot I would rather have that than Lowe and possibly would want it over Burnett too, depending what kind of contract he’ll require.
I know Burnett’s an injury risk – but I’d rather take Burnett than Lowe being he has averaged 183 innings over the last 4 years with a 3.8 ERA. So he’ll put up a Wang-like ERA and might miss 4-6 starts per year. That’s not so bad..
I like Moose. Wouldn’t mind him back. But uh, didn’t he say he was making a decision early next week like 2 weeks ago or last week?
Cor Shep-
CC Wang Burnett/Lowe Andy/Moose Joba seem to be the way the Yanks are leaning, though. To me, the question is, does Burnett/Lowe instead of Hughes/Aceves/etc. give you more wins over the season than Teixeira/Swisher does over Swisher/Gardner? Is it worth the $5 to $10MM savings?
BBB, I think any contract would be bad for Burnett. The front office needs to evaluate a players entire career, and not just last year. And AJ’s entire career states that he just doesn’t start 30 games a year. Signing him would just create a gaping hole in the rotation.
Burnett is going to be 32 and has only had 4 years in his entire career when he didn’t miss significant time because of an injury. He pitched a full season last year, but only had 25 and 21 starts the 2 years before that.
These are his start totals over his career:
’08 – 34, ’07 – 25, ’06 – 21, ’05 – 32, ’04 – 19, ’03 – 4, ’02 – 29, ’01 – 27, ’00 – 13
I don’t know why he would be more healthy after 32.
AJ supporter = positive thinker.
Cor Shep, AJ misses alot more than 4 starts a year. Last year he missed about 10. The year before, 13. In 04 it was 15. in 03 he started 4 games.
If we get AJ, we’re probably looking to fill over ten starts while he’s hurt.
So everyone has their list and the common pitchers in it are C.C./Wang and Joba.
What would your list look like if C.C. goes elswhere?
any consideration to
Peavy?
Sheets?
Penny?
If we fail to get first prize?
Out of those 3 in order.
Sheets
Peavy
Penny
Maybe look to see what Oswalt would cost.
“If there is one player who can walk away after a great season, it’s Mike. Baseball needs him more than he needs baseball.”
I don’t this is very accurate. Baseball doesn’t need Mike Mussina. The game won’t be hurt a bit if he retires after this year. If a guy like Pujols walked away, that’s another story.
To make it more accurate, you should say that it’s the Yankees who need Mussina more than he needs the Yankees. They are going to make a mistake by signing a Lowe or Burnett if Mussina retires. If Mussina comes back, they can get away with just signing Sabathia. Signing more than one of these bigger name free agent pitchers will be a mistake due to the contract lengths. Lowe would be less of a mistake than Burnett, but it would still be a mistake.
Sheets is hurt too much and Penny’s hurt too much and not very good.
Matt-
Just finished looking up AJ Burnett’s injury history and read an article by blogger Joseph DelGrippo, that I can’t attach, but after reading about his mechanics, I agree now, we would need to be wary.
However a rotation of Sabathia, Wang, Mussina, Pettitte and Joba[ 140 innings worth], I’m afraid will not get into the playoffs, although i feel it was amazing we won 89 games with only a reliable Mussina down the stretch and no hitting. Still believe our rotation would be behind Tampa Bay, Boston, LAA.
Thoughts on whom beside Sabathia you’d like to sign?
If we can’t get CC, the Yanks need to shift gears and make Teixeira the prime target. Second prize in the pitching FA contest will save enough money to pay for Tex. You can win either on the offensive or pitching side.
Honestly, that rotation you named looks fine to me. I don’t think any of the other free agent pitchers are worth the commitment. Lowe would probably be the best there though.
Matt DiBari: I definitely share your cynicism regarding Burnett. I view both his health and his heart (or lack thereof, on both counts) with suspicion. I guess if he took a contract less than or equal to what Toronto is offering (which is more than fair considering his whole career) in exchange for the chance to win, then I might be amenable to bringing him on board because at least it shows that he wants to compete and win.
As risky as he is, no one can deny that adding a physical-passing Burnett on top of CC, Wang and Joba would give the Yankees a lethal rotation. It’s hard to turn that down, so if he makes some sort of financial concession that would at least say something positive about his character and make the risk more worthwhile. But he needs to at least prove he doesnt have Kevin Brown health AND dedication first.
Sabathia, Wang, Mussina, Pettitte, and Joba would definitely get the Yankees in the playoffs.
Think about it. You are replacing almost 50 starts by Rasner, Ponson, Pavano, Hughes, Giese and Aceves with CC, Wang, and Joba. Even if Mussina wins 5 less games next year, they are still so much better off. And if there’s an injury, Phil Hughes is more developed and ready to come in and help.
Do you think resigning Pettite and Moose will greatly increase Cashman’s interest in Teixerra because it really seems like they could care less about him.
also, I’m not sure I agree that signing Burnett leaves a gaping hole in the rotation. This isnt like last year where he’d be the no. 3 with only rookies behind him. If the MLB rotation is 4 veterans including Burnett *plus* Joba, then we still have good depth on the farm as insurance if/when AJ got hurt. Because his missed starts are gonna hurt you less in that scenario, it only makes his healthy starts even more valuable to the team.
That said, I’m still not sure it’d be a wise investment and can see lots of things going wrong. Can also see a lot going right though, so I guess I stand in the middle and say that his contract would have to reflect some of the suspicions people very rightfully have about signing him. Otherwise, it’s just too much risk.
Liked the Swisher, buy low, pickup.
Would Aaron Harang, 30 yo 6’7 275 lbs., righty be a buy low nice bookend to Sabathia? Last year worst year of the last four. Another strikeout pitcher.
Thoughts?
“Sabathia, Wang, Mussina, Pettitte, and Joba would definitely get the Yankees in the playoffs.”
Definitely, right now is too strong a word, until I see what other teams in our division do and if Wang, Joba, Pettitte, Posada, Matsui are sound next spring.
Honestly, besides health, I think AJ is very, very overrated. I don’t think he’d make the rotation anymore lethal than any other mid rotation starter. His year last year was, despite the screaming of the media, really great, and his career 111 ERA+ and 1.284 WHIP just don’t wow me at all. And I think he’s only going to start getting worse from age 32 on.
That should be “His year last year was NOT great”
At a year at a time I would much rather see moose and andy on the mound then burnette and lowe. believe andy will bounce back and moose heck who knows he could repeat. There just is no telling how long he could throw as he is now.
the league had the whole year to figure him out and didn’t get it done. bring both of em back, 1 free agent wang, pettite, moose joba, I would go to war with that.
Guys,
Moose is no savior if he resigns. I bet he will win no more than 15 next yr. He is still pretty old and he will want a multi yr deal. Granted, Burnett and Lowe both have a ton of flaws but its not like Moose is without his. Any of these three signings can be complete disasters. Lowe prolly wont succeed in the AL and Burnett will have many more injuries before his career is over. The question is – how bad will Lowe be and how bad will Burnetts injuries be? I wish there was another prize free agent pitcher outside of CC or we could make a reasonable trade for a solid third starter. How many of the MLB’s best pitchers were traded last yr and how many did we get? With all our pitchers in double and triple A, we cant get one reliable third starter from a trade? Cash wants to make his mark on this franchise and I just dont think signing Burnett or Lowe will make a mark. Atleast not the type of mark he wants to make.
i can’t wait for things to really get hot and heavy!!!
“Baseball needs him more than he needs baseball.”
Baseball won’t even notice. You’re delusional.
No one will remember the 20 wins in his last season two years ago…people remember 300 wins..If he’s not in the hall now…a crappy year in 2009 wouldn’t change anything…so from March till Oct..8 months…he could get 10 million dollars…a mill and change a month…
sorry pitching a game every 5 \days ain’t diggin a ditch..or pumping a sewer line…if he retires..HE IS A FOOL…
And for anybody who says he doesn’t need the money…yeah right…
It’s sad how many people are so bitter and angry.
Mussina doesn’t care about the Hall of Fame or stats. He likes playing baseball and he’s very good at it. He’s weighing the difference between spending more time in the game or spending time with his wife and 3 kids. He has enough money for 100 lifetimes. He lives in rural Pennsylvania and fixes up old cars. It’s not like he’s got a fleet of jets.
And baseball does need him. He’s a smart guy, he’s a funny guy and he has the game in perspective. There aren’t too many guys like Mussina, Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz around, guys who broke in when rookies were making five-figure salaries and weren’t spoiled. Or guys who really know how to pitch, change speeds, survive without their bext stuff, etc.
If he wants to retire, good for him.
Mussina will NOT make the Hall of Fame if his career ends at 270 wins. Unlike some pitchers who dominated the sport for a few years, Mussina is more of a a solid, long-term “compiler” of wins. Those guys need to reach 300 (or at least get very close to it). Mussina isn’t there yet.
I absolutely believe that not one person in the Yankee organization feels Moose will come back. That said, I will remain hopeful as long as he himself hasn’t made the announcement yet. Maybe it’s reasonable to think he is leaning more toward retirement than not. But I can also think of quite a few reasons he would want to stay. Obviously Moose can also since he hasn’t been able to announce yet.
Here are a few things that could cause him to want to come back: the possibility of maybe getting closer to 300 and the possibility it could propel him into the HOF (even though for all we know he could be a lock right now); the season he had in 2008 causing him to believe that his best pitching days are not over; wanting to pitch in the new Yankee Stadium.
There are also reasons I could see him retiring, including the flip side of the great season coin, and that would be going out on top, especially with the gold glove to boot.
I usually believe in my gut feelings on things because they are more-often-than-not right on the money. But I think I am too emotionally invested in this one to even know my gut feeling. I think my gut is saying he’s coming back but the more time that goes by, the more shaky it feels.
So the best I can say is that I will continue to believe he is coming back and if he does not I will deal with it at the time it is announced. My mom always used to say that where there is life, there is hope. So I remain hopeful…
I am obviously prepared for either eventuality. If he chooses to retire, though, I will be very very sad. To me he epitomizes all of the best in a player, bar nothing.
Tell him to make up his damn mind and stop stringing us along. Before the season ended he looked dead set on retiring and he said he’d give an answer early, then 2 weeks ago his agent was going to meet him, then last week he said he would make a decision this week, then this week he says next week. Just do it already
“Mussina is more of a a solid, long-term “compiler†of wins.”
Moose has averaged 17 wins a season for his career. Maddux has averaged 16, Randy Johnson has averaged 16, Clemens has averaged 17. I guess none of those “compilers” deserve to be in the HOF either.
Roger Clemens – 354 and 184 . 658 WP 3.12 era strikeouts 4672 in 4916 innings 1.173 whip
Randy Johnson – 295 and 160 .648 WP 3.26 era 4789 strikeouts in 4039 innings 1.167 whip
Greg Maddux – 355 and 227 .610 WP 3.16 era 3371 strikeouts in 5008 innings 1.143 whip
Mike Mussina – 270 and 153 .638 WP 3.68 era 2813 strikeouts in 3562 innings 1.192 whip
Its not all about wins per season obviously. Look at the longevity of the other three. Look at the career era and whip after playing far, far longer. Moose has the winning percentage because he played on good teams and was solid for many years but if he doesnt come back he will not have the longevity of the high numbers (wins, strikeouts and innings) while maintaining a low whip and era to compete. To me, it is clear for just the numbers above the Moose falls far short from being compared to the other three shoe-ins for the hall of fame (based solely on the numbers and not clemens whole steroid issue.) Moose needs 30 more wins, 200 more strikeouts while maintaining his whip and era to be guaranteed a spot which will take two or three more seasons (Im sure 3 at his age.) Right now, i dont think he has the numbers. Winning percentage only means that you spent your career on good teams with potent offenses and decent bullpens which he has. That says little about how good he actually is which is good but not HOF good.
1. Moose is not a Compiler. Jamie Moyer is a Compiler, Kenny Rogers is a compiler. Among retired, Jim kaat, Tommy John. Moose has won 270 in 17 seasons and part of another. He didn’t take 23 years or pitch into his mid 40s to get there. I think an argument could be made that Moose is a hybrid compiler/semi-dominant because he doesn’t fit obviously into either, but he is a whole other class than those guys I mentioned. Just because he barely missed 20 wins several times and a few other milestones doesn’t push him down into that class. He is better than every pitcher with at least 270 wins who is not in the HOF except for maybe 1 guy.
2. While we are on Moose and compared to other old guys, addressing some of the knocks addressed in the thread: He is “only” a 6 inning pitcher? Yeah, well so was Clemens. Clemens was only a 6 inning pitcher his entire Yankee career including when you won the Cy Young and they kept resigning him. I think the guy had like 1 complete game in his last 8 years. Talk about wearing out a bullpen. Is he too old for a multi-year deal? Well I would prefer no more than a 2 year or 1 with option, but Jamie Moyer is supposedly demanding a multi-year deal. Jamie moyer is 6 years older and has several years with a ERA over 5.00. He had 1 decent year at 45 and is going to play until he’s 50. Moose had a much better year at 39, but he’s old. If Moose had a good year because he pitched like Moyer ( he didn’t- he pitched way better than Moyer. Moose had 150Ks with no fastball and a 3.37 ERA. I think Moyer has 150 Ks once in 23 seasons and sub 4.00 ERA about 1/8th as many times as Moose), and Moyer can pitch as long as he wants to and a team will keep paying him, why can’t Moose keep playing? If Moyer can have a ERA of almost 6.00 in his 40s and still win 13-14 games and keeps getting deals..If David Wells can suck many years and teams are still inquiring about his services when he is 44… and so on and so on. But if Moose has 1 bad year and 3-4 average ones in a 17 year career, he is old and washed up. He wins 20 and its a fluke. Other 40 year olds win 12 and they get multi year deals, lifetime mutual options,etc.
3. Retirement- Moose never said he would make a decision early. I think a lot of the retirement talk was media generated, but I don’t know. What’s funny is a week before the end of the season every blog and paper was reporting that he was definitely COMING BACK. He was quoted as saying he wanted to keep pitching and he hoped it would be with the Yankees and that if they made him any kind of offer ” the decision would be easy.” ( with a rare smile).
A week later he was retiring. Even though he never said that. And from what I understood it was always a matter of his deal is up, it could be his last season. He isn’t signed for next year, and he is going to go home and spend some time with the family and not even think about baseball for awhile. I got the impression he would take at least a couple months to decide. But I guess its hard to relax with your family for 2 months when people are asking you every day when you are going to decide. No one has let the guy have any time to think. He isn’t stringing anyone along because he never gave a timetable. He is a free agent. He can do what he wants. If the Yankees want him back they should let him know.
I like how the criticism of Moose always comes down to WINS. If he wins 18 or 19 because of poor run support and blown saves, well he’s not a multiple “20 game winner.”
If he wins a higher % of his starts than Maddux and all those guys, well wins aren’t a good measure.
If critics are going to evaluate him negatively because of fewer than 300 wins and a lack of multiple 20 win seasons,then it is very relevant to point out his winning %, average wins per seasons, winning over 50% of his starts and 117 more wins than losses.
As far as the offenses behind him, the 1996 Orioles were great. He had a bad year and won 19. But he also had seasons where he went 11-15 despite being in the league leaders in ERA and all the other stats. He was the best pitcher on the Yankees and the AL in 2001 but only won 17. His run support has been inconsistent throughout his career and he played on some terrible Os teams and some indifferent and lazy fielding Yankees teams.
I don’t think he compares to Maddux, Clemens, Johnson/ He’s my favorite player and I don’t believe he comes close to those guys. My problem is, when looking at his career stats, people are going to ( and already have) compare him to Kaat, John, Moyer, Rogers, Wells, Pettitte- and he is in a different league than most of those guys.
I hope he retires because with a good season like that and his old age he should go out on top. Besides the Yankees rotation will look like this in 2009:
CC Sabathia
AJ Burnett
Chien Ming Wang
Jake Peavy
Andy Pettitte
dave,
Those Baltimore teams were good teams? They only made the playoffs twice in Mooses 10 seasons with Baltimore. He spent his prime years pitching during the steroid era in the AL east in a hitters ball park. Take a look at his ERA+, and compare it other HOF pitchers.
Adjusted ERA+, often simply abbreviated to ERA+, is a statistic in baseball. It adjusts a pitcher’s ERA according to the pitcher’s ballpark (does it favor batters or pitchers) and the ERA of the pitcher’s league. Average is set to be 100; a score above 100 indicates the pitcher performed better than average, below 100 indicates worse than average. For instance, if the average ERA in the league is 4.00, and the pitcher is pitching in a ballpark that favors hitters, and his ERA is 4.00, then his ERA+ will be over 100. However, if the average ERA in the league is 3.00, and the pitcher is pitching in a ballpark favoring pitchers, and the pitcher’s ERA is 3.50, then the pitcher’s ERA+ will be (significantly) below 100.
As a result, ERA+ is a good way of comparing pitchers’ performances across different run environments. In the above example, the first pitcher has performed better than the second pitcher, but his ERA is higher. ERA+ corrects this misleading impression.
Moose – 123
Jim Palmer – 126
Bob Gibson – 127
juan marichal – 123
Bob Feller – 122
Steve Carlton – 115
Tom Seaver – 127
Should I keep going? Moose is most definitely a HOFer 300 wins or not.
he should be in the hof because he pitched during the steroid era.
how much better would his numbers be if nobody was on steroids?
he had a great 08 season after testing was in place.that has to be on his mind.i say he comes back,a gut feeling.
Pete – Maybe I am reading too much into it, but this post sounds to me like a shadow of doubt has crept into you regarding Mussina retiring. In prior posts, you sounded confident, if not totally positive Moose was done, in fact, I vaguely recall you saying “he is retiring folks”, but that could be a figment of my imagination. Anyway, have you heard something that has changed your tone even if its just a mild alteration? To me, this post sounds like you are slightly more in doubt of what you previously believed was certain retirement and I am just curious as to whether there is a reason for it or if its just a gut instinct that maybe he in fact will return.
Ten reasons Mussina should keep playing:
http://silentarchimedes.wordpr.....p-playing/