Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Nov 20, 2008 
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It’s not quite official yet, but Mike Mussina has decided to retire and an announcement should come soon. Meanwhile, Joe Girardi and the Yankees are lining up other deals.
I figured he’d have something to say about all of this – just saw a few words on Moose’s brother’s blog. I had no idea he was experiencing elbow pain near the end of the year.
Happy trails, Moose! Now I just have to find myself a new favorite player…
Whoops, I guess HTML tags don’t work… ?
Anyway, I was attempting to link to this: http://wnst.net/wordpress/mark.....etirement/
Alex,
Thanks for posting that piece from Mussina’s brother it was well worth the read. I know Pete has his blog linked on the side but it’s easy to miss amongst all the other blogs Pete has listed.
Mike Mussina had a truly brilliant career. I would have liked to see him stick around to try to get 300 but I still think he should make the HOF. He was truly an astounding pitcher during his time, during all time in fact.
Kurkjian thinks Moose is a HOFer. I would love to agree but I don’t think hes a shoo-in.
I will miss the Moose. He was/is extraordinary. He is a grinder who just did everything in his power to win. A man with sharp wit and a sharper breaking ball. I wanted him back, but is not to be. I hope I watch his induction, he deserves it.
I just heard Peter Gammons on Mike & Mike say that, if he could only pick one for the Hall of Fame out of Mussina, Smoltz, and Schilling, he’d pick Schilling.
Seriously….he just said that. Just lost lots of credibility, in my eyes. Jeeeesh, what a homer.
Represented by Boras I presume…..
“Derek Lowe reportedly opened the free-agent bidding yesterday asking for a whopping $16 million per season.”
http://www.nypost.com/seven/11.....139644.htm
Sad part about that is that Gammons gets to vote. (I think)
Smoltz has had just as many wins as Schilling 210 vs 216 AND has 154 saves.
I’d say of those 3, Smoltz should get in the easiest (I still think Moose will in time) and he says Shilling?? Oh please!!
The more time goes on, the more ignored Gammons gets. He can’t possibly have a paragraph without inserting something Boston in it. He can’t take a chance of losing his luxury suite at the Green Sardine Can.
Gee, where did Schilling play? Gammons should start to wear a Red Sox uniform when he’s on the air.
From the Boston Globe:
“The Crisp trade leaves the Sox with a hole in their outfield rotation. They will explore deals for a righthanded bat off the bench who can protect them in center field. Most of the Red Sox prospects are lefthanded hitters. One possibility the Sox are exploring is Rocco Baldelli, the Rhode Island native and former Rays outfielder/DH.”
Unfortunately, that makes alot of sense for both Rocco and the Sox. He fits all of their criteria and given his medical condition, a part time role to help him with recovery time seems perfect.
I’m guessing that this CD will not be this years hot new stocking stuffer.
And how likely is it that Schilling has it on his Ipod.
http://tinyurl.com/5ondoz
Moose was a bargain in pinstripes
By John Donovan
Nov 20, 2008
Great article on moose.
“the Green Sardine Can”
*lol*
By CHRISTIAN INGRAM, cingram@sungazette.com POSTED: November 20, 2008
Email: “Mussina set to retire”
After 18 years spent between the Baltimore Orioles and the New York Yankees, the most successful athlete in Montoursville’s history is on his way home.
Mike Mussina, fresh off his only 20-win season of his illustrious career, has opted to retire, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports.
The news about Mussina’s future emerged around dinner time, and while it may have surprised many in the local area, the New York Yankees, Mussina’s former team, were already pursuing options to replace the Montoursville native. The Yanks have made an offer to prized pitcher C.C. Sabathia, extending a contract over six years reportedly worth over $140 million, which would be the richest contract even given to a pitcher. New York has also expressed interest in free agent starters A.J. Burnett and Derek Lowe.
Mike’s brother, Mark, also didn’t expect Mike to return to the mound for a 19th season.
“It’s sad in a way,” reflected the younger Mussina. “But it’s good in a way, too. I would certainly love to see him pitch more and I’m sad I won’t ever get to see him win again. In 2007 I saw him fail, though, and it wasn’t fun, so if he kept playing until he couldn’t play anymore then failure would be in his future somewhere down the line.
“I’m happy he’s doing this now on the heels of his 2008 performance rather than risking another 2007. He went into this season, I think, assuming it would be his last, so I wasn’t too surprised by his decision today.”
Many might be wondering why Mussina, who finished tied for sixth in the American League in Cy Young voting with the Angels’ Ervin Santana, would hang it up now.
“When you look at the pitchers over forty, such as Greg Maddux, John Smoltz, Tom Glavine, Kenny Rogers, and Curt Schilling, who missed the entire season, the only one who had a good year was Jamie Moyer,” said Mark. “The others were either hurt or ineffective. It’s odd because he did so well, but I think he feels that his body can’t go on forever and he doesn’t want to go out and tarnish what he’s done up until this point.”
He certainly didn’t tarnish anything with his performance in 2008, as the Yankees’ elder statesman, who turns 40 on Dec. 8, went 20-9 with 150 strikeouts, a 3.39 ERA and a 1.22 WHIP. According to Elias Sports Bureau and ESPN, the University of Stanford product is also only the fifth pitcher since 1900 to win 20 games in his final season.
Personal matters may have also played a role in Mussina’s decision, as Rosenthal reported that Mussina retired so he could spend more time with his family, who reside in the Montoursville area.
What’s next for Mussina now that his baseball career is in the rear view mirror? The hot rumor around the area is that he will venture into world of Little League Baseball, where Mussina first made his name, as a coach. Younger brother Mark echoed those rumors.
“I’m sure he’ll be a Little League coach,” said Mark. “He’s already on the board and has a vested interest in it, so I’m sure in the spring he’ll be in the Little League dugout
“the Green Sardine Canâ€
Actually I meant to say
He he he. That better represents nonstop laughter!
the red sox official spokes-person has more credibility than peter gammons.
Schilling finishes third in that race. He had four or five what I would call great seasons in an otherwise mediocre career.
Mussina had 17 10+ win seasons, Schilling had 10
Mussina had two losing seasons, Schilling had EIGHT
Mussina won 270 games, Schilling won 216
Mussina was 117 games above .500, Schilling was 70
Yes his best seasons were better than Mussina’s best, but in the 17 years they were both in the big leagues, Mussina was better at least ten of those campaigns. AND he spend ALL 17 years in the AL East compared to Schilling’s four.
Great job Moose!
Of Schilling’s 20 different years or parts of years, he had a losing record in 10 of them. That’s not HOF material.
Color me shocked!! Gammons picks red light Curt for the fame. wow.
GreenBeret7
Don’t let facts get in the way of biased.
Mussina had a losing record in two seasons his first when he only pitched 12 games, and in 2000 when he actually finished 6th in cy young voting.
jennifer
November 20th, 2008 at 8:55 am
GreenBeret7
Don’t let facts get in the way of biased.
Mussina had a losing record in two seasons his first when he only pitched 12 games, and in 2000 when he actually finished 6th in cy young voting.
——————————————————–
I never do. Those are the facts. Mussina had 300 more innings pitched, but only 70 mor walks. mussina wasn’t necessarily a strikeout pitcher but had only 300 less. He had more complete game shutouts. Schilling did have more complete games.
Looking at Schilling not through pinstriped glasses. He’s finished 2nd in Cy Young voting multiple times, had a few 20 win seasons, a couple of postseason MVPs and he was a great postseason player which will get him bonus points.
Before you discount those things, remember that similiar accomplishments are what includes Jeter in the HOF discussion.
I think this opens the door a bit for our friend Andy Pettite.Sounds like all these free agents will be a tussle to get.Having Andy back with Moose now finally decided will give the yanks a little more leverage, dont you think? Andy’s numbers aren’t far differnt than Derek Lowe’s and he is asking for the same price as Andy but for more years. Gives time for the organization to build up from within the farm for some new arms. You will likely need six viable starters (somebody will go down for injury)..so if we can get just one of these free agents with Andy, you add Hughes..get two you can have Hughes starting in AAA ready to go. I would sign Andy now.
pat
November 20th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Looking at Schilling not through pinstriped glasses. He’s finished 2nd in Cy Young voting multiple times, had a few 20 win seasons, a couple of postseason MVPs and he was a great postseason player which will get him bonus points.
Before you discount those things, remember that similiar accomplishments are what includes Jeter in the HOF discussion.
yes his postseason numbers are great, but I don’t think his overall career numbers are good enough, IMO. He doesn’t measure up to others who may not make it in, like Smoltz and Mussina in this example(although I think both should get in)
Jeter will get in because he should have 3000+ hits and a high career BA, etc., overal great career numbers. Bonus points from his postseason performances is what will get him in 1st ballot.
Gammons..
I’ve already made my prediction known, Andy will be resigned the end of next week, begining of the following.
First, I don’t wear pnstripe colored glasses. Besides, Mussina had more seasons with Baltimore. I’m not saying Schilling wasn’t great at times and his post-season numbers are impressive. But for an overall body of work, I’ll take Mussina’s career over Schilling in most areas. Obviously his 11-and-2, 2.23 post-season record is awesome.
If it was up to me they both get in, but if I rank the three in order from the above debate it’s Smoltz, Mussina and Schilling because I choose consistent excellence of occasional greateness marred by inconsistency.
Again, Schilling had eight losing seasons and just ten 10+ win seasons. If you only look at the core of Schilling’s career (1992-2006) he measures up better.
I have to admit I got a few laughs when reading this – sorry if it’s already been posted
http://www.bugsandcranks.com/n.....wards-too/
I’ve got to ask, how did Igawa only get the honorable mention?
What are you talking about?
Gammons totally just supported Moose for the Hall of Fame? I’m listening to the delay right now!
He spent a HUGE amount of time kissing Mussina’s ass, and the Schilling thing was an afterthought to that.
Did you even listen to the whole thing?
“I think Smolts definitely is”
“i know Mussina and Schilling is”
“Schilling doesn’t have Moose’s regular season credentials, and Musina doesn’t have Schilling’s postseason credentials, so it’s a toss up for which one you think is more important”
Given the attitude around here most of the time, I think we would all value “post season heroics” over regular season greatness…isn’t that the problem we have with A-Rod?
He also added that “I’m glad I don’t have to vote that way, because they’re all three going to get my vote”.
It’s amazing what you guys choose to hear sometimes, just to crank on someone.
He completely went off the cuff to support Mussina’s career and odds of being in the hall. He even spent time mentioning what everyone else says about spending his whole career in the AL East, while the others spent sig. time in the NL.
Oh, also – this from WasWatching:
Either way, the Brewers’ already slim chances of keeping Sabathia will diminish further with California teams in play. Sabathia, who hails from Vallejo, Calif., just down the road from San Francisco, has told friends and acquaintances he likes the idea of playing in his home state.
Should we choose to believe this one?
It can’r be denied that whatever happens with C.C. Sabathia sets the wheels in motion for whatever other signings will be done for free agents before, during, and after the winter meetings in Vegas during Dec. 8-11.
These meeting should see more trading moves than in recent years with some being for salary reasons.
I sure will miss watching Mussina pitch. When his control was on (more often than not), it sure was a lot of fun. It seemed like he had a dozen different pitches working and was always 2 steps ahead of the batter.
His post game comments were always entertaining too!
And if he does make the HOF, which hat does he wear? He pitched 2 more seasons in Baltimore and had 24 more wins.
Still, going in with your 1st team is like getting buried next to your 1st wife.
Why does that surprise you? Yesterday, we had people on here losing their minds over “losing” Sabathia to the Dodgers.
This was based on a report that the Dodgers, heaven forbid, would actually place a BID on him!
That set off hours of people in sheer panic writing gibberish and nonsense on here.
It doesn’t take much for some to go off the deep end here! lol
Look, Peter Gammons is probably the greatest baseball writer of our generation. He’s in the Hall of Fame for a reason. He was brilliant for over 30 years.
At this stage of his career, he’s an unabashed homer for the Boston Red Sox. Its not a newsflash or a surprise or, truth be told, a big deal.
Despite the fact that he is a shill for the Red Sox, the guy LOVES Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, and has probably defended Arod more than anybody at the Clown College known as ESPN.
At some point, folks have to stop getting into a panic over everything somebody says, or doesn’t say, favorable about the Yankees or their players.
They have opinions just like we do. Its not Hitler’s Army where everybody has to agree.
Just relax, go with the flow, and don’t sweat the small stuff.
It will save some on here therapist money and doctor’s bills for ulsar treatments.
Still, going in with your 1st team is like getting buried next to your 1st wife
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Paulie
The last question from Mike Golic was about who of the three Gammons would pick, if he could only pick one. Did you hear that part? Did I report any of that incorrectly?
He inplied that Schilling is more deserving than the other two. It’s ridiculous.
Smoltz should make it first. Very successful as part of a legendary rotation for more than a decade. Then, he moved into the closer role without a hitch. A great career.
Mussina has 270 wins, pitching in a 5-man rotation for his entire career….all of it in the AL East. Impressive.
Schilling is disqualified, because he’s a jerk and his middle name is Montague.
What about that doesn’t make sense?
More of the same, but this is the first I’ve heard anyone say that CC didn’t pitch well at the old stadium and that the new one setting up like the old one might be a deterrant.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne.....;type=lgns
In the tidbits, teams are looking at Tom Gordon, even after he had elbow surgery!
*implied*
MLB now decides what cap the player wears right? (thanks Winfield). I guess they would choose the O’s because that is where Mike made his name.
Jon,
I guess it depends on which performance you’d rather have. I love Mussina, but I wish he would have had a few better postseason, thus ending the debate to which is more important.
Far be it for facts to be in the way here, but Schilling’s postseason are damn impressive, jerk or not.
Again, I think they’re both deserving, and I’m not supporting Gammons in any way, but you take his quote out of context because you don’t qualify with what he said immediately after:
“I’m really glad nobody has to vote that way, because all three are going to get my vote”.
But, you can spin that however you want to. Some people just prefer playoff victories and World Series MVPs and stuff when compared to regular season victories.
**GIAMBI TO TAMPA BAY??**
The Dancing Bear could be doing the free-agent shuffle to AL champion Tampa Bay – and Jason Giambi’s replacement at first base will be viewed as the player the Yankees went with over signing Mark Teixeira. Welcome to The Bronx, Nick Swisher. “Right now, he is our first baseman,” GM Brian Cashman said of the 27-year-old, switch-hitting Swisher, who actually started more games in the outfield (96) than he did at first (47) last year for the White Sox. Since the defending AL champion Rays are looking for a left-handed DH, Giambi fits the bill. He’ll turn 38 in January and clearly won’t command anywhere close to the $23 million he made last year.
http://www.fannation.com/truth.....view/78151
Tom, I think you’re probably right -especially with the abundance of NY caps already in the hall. The Orioles makes sense, but I’m sure Mussina will have some kind of input on the issue, and hopefully, he’ll choose NY.
Really it was Boggs that made the HOF decide on the cap. He chose to go in as a Devil Ray! I think there was some financial reason for doing so.
Winfield going in as a Padre was a bummer for us but he probably wasn’t too upset after what happened with him and Steinbrenner.
Giambi in Tampa scares me. Giambi, as a full time DH, anywhere else in the AL scares me. A new team is going to let him be the person he wants to be. He’ll go back to his old ways, minus the roids of course, and probably be a tear. As a full-time DH in Tampa, he’ll probably put up monstrous numbers against NY, and we’ll have to watch him revert to the tatood, greasy long hair and cut off muscle shirts again as he does it.
It’s something I hope doesn’t happen. That kind of atmosphere of fun, and being who you want to be is exactly what he needs and probably wants. NY paid him, but I’m sure he was always more comfortable and at ease in Oakland.
It can’t be good if that happens.
Better to let a player go a year too soon. What would bother me is if Giambi becomes the full time DH. When he was here it was something he disliked doing.
The Hall reserves the right to make the decision, but will always go along with the players’ preference IF it’s legit.
Wade Boggs’ promise to wear a Tampa Bay hat if they signed him was not legit. Clemens, who should get in easily (opinion, not prediction) despite the steroids issue can legitimately ask for Yanks or Red Sox. They would not let him go in with an Astros cap… or a Balco Cap.
Winfield basically auctioned his off based on which team gave him a job…. quite tacky.
Oh no.
Apparently, Mark Sclerth (sp) is a Red Sox fan too. He made a bunch of good points about Moose not being in the HOF.
What is the world coming to.
(In case you haven’t figured, I’m not for it).
Never, ever the best at his position. Normally, not even the best pitcher on his own team (in NY). Never coming up big in the playoffs, and quite frankly, sans last year, we were calling for him to not be signed because he stunk the past four years.
There are several good reasons why he could be, and several that could keep him out. If the HOF is going to keep out guys like Blyleven and Rice because of their shortcomings, the most assuredly going to do the same to Moose.
He’s in the Hall of Really, Really good. But not the HOF.
“Giambi in Tampa scares me. Giambi, as a full time DH”
Don’t be scared. Jason says he hits much better when he plays defense. He’s too nice a guy to have lied, isn’t he?
I dislike Curt Schilling. A lot. I can’t stand the guy. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a great pitcher.
He’s got a career ERA of 3.46, lower than Moose’s (3.68), good for a 127 ERA+, also better than Moose’s (123).
Schilling’s career WHIP: 1.137, Mussina’s: 1.192.
He has 3,000+ strikeouts. The only person not in the HOF w/3K strikeouts who is eligible is Blyleven, and there is no reason why he should be kept out, but that’s a rant for another day.
His K/BB ratio is 4.38, Mussina’s is 3.58.
His K/9 is 8.6, Mussina’s is 7.12
His BB/9 is 1.96, Mussina’s is 1.98, so essentially equal.
His H/9 is 8.27, Mussina’s is 8.74
His career line against: .243/.286/.387/.673
Mussina’s: .255/.297/.399/.696
There is essentially zero difference between these two pitchers, with Schilling getting a very slight edge.
Saying Schilling is not a Hall of Famer while Mussina is one is ridiculous. Both of these guys will–and should–get a plaque in Cooperstown one day.
At least for a while, Giambi hit better when he played defense because he only DH’d when he was playing hurt.
In the end, he couldn’t play defense to save his life, even when he wasn’t hurt. So that line gets kind of clouded, but I’ll take his word for it.
If he comes to the plate, pitch him on the outside half and don’t over shift.
Note to self: stop typing double hyphens.
“The last question from Mike Golic was about who of the three Gammons would pick, if he could only pick one. Did you hear that part? Did I report any of that incorrectly?
He inplied that Schilling is more deserving than the other two. It’s ridiculous.”
It is. Great question though. My answer is Smoltz and it’s not at all close. In the end though, I believe all three will be in sooner or later.
I’m a Sox fan but I do think that Moose deserves to be in the HOF. With that being said I don’t think his inclusion will be automatic.
I was listening to JT the Brick last night on the radio. He is a big Yankee fan and yet he was saying that Moose should not be inducted in the HOF. He said something about quite a few pitchers that are around 270 wins, but I still think he should be put in the hall.
“It is. Great question though. My answer is Smoltz and it’s not at all close. In the end though, I believe all three will be in sooner or later.”
There is definitely a case for Schilling over Moose.
“There is definitely a case for Schilling over Moose.”
I suppose. Under the whole Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics theory, one could probably make a compelling arggument for either guy or the other.
“I suppose. Under the whole Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics theory, one could probably make a compelling arggument for either guy or the other.”
I “crunched” a few numbers up above and Schilling had the edge in all of them–ERA, ERA+ WHIP K/BB, K/9, H/9, BB/9 (very very small), BAA/OBPA/SLGA/OPSA…Schilling, despite being a world class d-bag, was a great pitcher. He should get the HOF.
And if Blyleven doesn’t get in this year, I’ll kill 3,701 people: one for every K Bert had.
Schilling’s already in the Hall of Fame.
At least his DNA is.
http://tinyurl.com/6ft2k3
“GIAMBI TO TAMPA BAY??”
That makes a heck of a lot of sense.
“Schilling is disqualified, because he’s a jerk and his middle name is Montague.”
This made me laugh. Reminded me that Patrick Ewing’s middle name is Aloysius… tough break, good thing he is/was 7 feet tall.
“Never, ever the best at his position. Normally, not even the best pitcher on his own team (in NY). Never coming up big in the playoffs, and quite frankly, sans last year, we were calling for him to not be signed because he stunk the past four years.”
1) I’d grant he’s never been the best at his own position.
2) On his own team? Well he always was as an Oriole and was arguably the Yankees best pitcher in at least three of his 8 seasons, including the year they errantly gave Clemens the Cy.
3) He’s come up big in the playoffs plenty of times. He does not have the Schilling/Smoltz postseason resume, but he’s come up very big in several spot. Game 7 relief appearance in the ’03 ALCS, the 1-0 win over the Athletics in the ’01 ALDS with the Yankees facing elimination, 7 innings of 1 run ball against the Marlins in the ’03 World Series to give the Yankees a 2-1 lead, his entire 1997 postseason with the Orioles.
4) Stunk for the last 4 years??? He pitched better in ’06 than he did last season. He had some uneven years to be sure, but two of his final three were quite good.
Ugghh. Paulie’s back.
“Schilling’s already in the Hall of Fame.
At least his DNA is.”
There’s a Shawn Kemp joke in there somewhere.
The difference between Mussina and Schilling is quite interesting…
Consistently very good vs. Occasionally great
Excellent Regular Season & good postseason performer vs. good regular season & excellent postseason
Quiet and dignified vs. brash and personality of a cheese grater.
Moose should definitely be considered for HOF. The 300-win plateau comes from when there were 4-man rotations. Every team has been using 5-man rotations for years … its different now since pitchers get fewer appearances per season. That’s not to say Moose should be a lock, but he should get a good look from the voters. He’s borderline HOF, but he shouldn’t get his Yanks number retired and that’s not a knock against him by any stretch.
Long ago, rotations were fewer than 4 pitchers. Bullpens are used differently. Suffice it to say, even as great as he was, Cy Young could not have won 511 games in this era.
Schilling should be considered too. That’s not to say he should get in, but does he have 3,000K’s so he should be at least considered. He had a lot of mediocre seasons would work against him. It’s not like he’s Nolan Ryan who pitched on terrible teams for all those years. He should be less likely to get in than Moose. That the sock he wiped his bloody nose with in ’04 (or that his wife mistook for a… never mind) is in the HOF doesn’t make him a lock, Mr Gammons.
When it is all said and done, Moose does NOT make the HOF.
Beningo just said, and I totally agree, when you think of a player, you have an immediate visceral response.
Dimaggio,Ruth,Williams,Gehrig, and currently Yaz,Mantle,Gwynn,Carew,Carlton, etc.
THESE are Hall Of Famers.
Moose is NOT in that category.
Never dominated the league. NEVER won a Cy Young, NEVER performed at a very high and consistent level in the playoffs ( 2 great games only)
Moose. Very very good performer over a period of years, but FAR from a Hall Of Famer.
Heck, how many all star games was he even in? The lock Hall Of Famers, Mays,Mantle,Yaz etc, were in 15,16,17,20 all star games, and now even top mention MVPS, CY Youngs etc.
It is expected that we would have the sentiment he should be in the HOF as he just retired, but over time, he will fall into the perennial 25-60% of the vote.
“Consistently very good vs. Occasionally great”
Thats a good way to put it, vin …
I like the personality analysis too but (Pete Rose aside) character has virtually nothing to do with HOF. There are some real jerks in there.
I think Rose should be in, but that’s another topic.
Why should Schilling be less likely to get in than Moose when he has better overall numbers?
What mediocre years has Schilling had? He began being a true starter in ’92 w/Philly (42 games, 26 starts). After that time, he had and ERA+ under 100 exactly three times (99 in 1993, 96 in 1999, 80 in 2005). Those are the only times he’s had an ERA of 4.00 or higher in his career. Where is there mediocrity in there?
One of the best tools to use to try to remove emotion, ( sure as if!) and look at this without emotion.
Imagine Moose just retired after 15 years pitching for the Sox.
Imagine Schilling just retired after 15 years pitching for the Yankees.
Ok, who if either should make the HOF?
Be as honest as you can please….
“One of the best tools to use to try to remove emotion, ( sure as if!) and look at this without emotion.
Imagine Moose just retired after 15 years pitching for the Sox.
Imagine Schilling just retired after 15 years pitching for the Yankees.
Ok, who if either should make the HOF?
Be as honest as you can please….”
I hate the fact that I’m arguing for Schilling right now. Dude’s a total jerk but he was a great pitcher. He deserves the HOF to be honest.
“It’s not like he’s Nolan Ryan who pitched on terrible teams for all those years”
Good point. Except that it’s not true. He was with the Phillies for 8.5 seasons. They had a winning record in one of those years, won more than 75 games once, and finished dead dog last 4 times. In the end, he played on more bad teams than he did good ones.
Moose spent the last 3 weeks crunching the numbers, calculating the odds…He either knows he’s in or he doesn’t care. (I suspect it’s the latter, otherwise he’d come back).
What do you think the odds are that I could fall ass-backwards into a front office gig with the Yankees like George Costanza did?
Bob,
You listed position players. You can’t use the visceral response argument for pitchers. They don’t put their imprint on the game like position players do. They’re part-time players, they go out every 4-5 days and throw the ball.
Pitchers and position players are evaluated differently for a reason. By your visceral argument, Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, and Mariano would be your only definites. Nolan Ryan because he scared the crap out of people. Roger Clemens because he was Roger Clemens. And Mo’s just Joe Cool.
“What do you think the odds are that I could fall ass-backwards into a front office gig with the Yankees like George Costanza did?”
The same that I’ll get hired writing baseball somewhere despite only an English degree (hopefully) and not a journalism one.
CB submitted a post last night about regarding the HOF and Mussina’s and Schilling JAWS scores.
According to JAWS which is the Jaffe Warp Score system Mussina was the most deserving out of Schilling, Smoltz, and himself for the HOF before 2008 and I think his 2008 campaign should have cemented him in even further.
Schilling was in but he was just above the border line for the HOF.
Source: http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=7451
You need a paid subscription to read the whole article but you can clearly see where each pitcher stands on the JAWS system.
My impression is HOF isn’t a big priority for Moose. He’s smart – he knows he’s borderline. I’m sure he wouldn’t mind, but he’s probably content now and willing to accept the possibility he won’t get in. Especially if he’s physically not up to another year or two, which is always a possibility.
Oh, and the “putting the imprint on the game” standard is much more valid in the NFL HOF argument because there are so many different positions with different kinds of stats.
It’s much more black and white in baseball as there are hitting, fielding, and pitching stats across the board.
“You need a paid subscription to read the whole article but you can clearly see where each pitcher stands on the JAWS system.”
Sounds like a cool system.
“Giambi in Tampa scares me. Giambi, as a full time DHâ€
Im not worried at all. All we have to do a shift everyone to the right side. Left fielder, third baseman, Shortstop. Have the catcher go out there as well. Even if ball 4 hits the backstop im sure our pitcher will chase it down before Giambi even gets to first.
just watch, all of a sudden giambi will learn how to hit to opposite field against the shift,lol
you can get a system to tell you any number of things, just like all the selective stats chosen above. Obviously Squints — You decided to leave out things like “wins” “winning percentage”, “10-win seasons” and “losing seasons” because none of those stats support your argument.
You also completely ignore the ERA differences between pitching in the NL versus the AL East. Your “imagine if” thing is just weird.
You ask what “mediocre” seasons he had? Well he had a losing record eight times, another .500 season and one where he was just one game over .500… that’s HALF his career. Mussina had two losing seasons and one that was one game above .500. Big difference there.
Bob — You gotta be careful comparing Hall of Famers. Sure, if you only look at the greatest of the great, Mussina does not belong. But if you compare him with Gaylord Perry, Don Sutton and Phil Niekro he most certainly does. Of course by that standard Blyleven, Kaat and Tommy John are also every bit as deserving of that trio, too.
Food for thought on these cant miss free agents. We had everyone up in arms for not getting Santana last year. We probably will have the same reaction if we dont get C.C. or Teix.
Santana-missed the playoffs
C.C.-Out in the first round
Teix-Out in the first round
All im saying is they arent the answers to us winning #27. Just a part of the puzzle. The 90′s teams didnt have one player carrying them. It was a team effort.
Clifton,
With our luck, he’ll revert back to his Oakland years form.
“You ask what “mediocre†seasons he had? Well he had a losing record eight times, another .500 season and one where he was just one game over .500… that’s HALF his career. Mussina had two losing seasons and one that was one game above .500. Big difference there.”
I’m gonna refer to what Fredo said on this one:
“He was with the Phillies for 8.5 seasons. They had a winning record in one of those years, won more than 75 games once, and finished dead dog last 4 times. In the end, he played on more bad teams than he did good ones.”
Schilling was on some awful teams, that’s why the wins totals aren’t there. Wins are a team stat and judging a pitcher by that is irresponsible.
Also, be careful with those “under .500 seasons” because in two of them (88/89), he pitched a grand total of 9 games, with 5 starts. In 90/91, he was a reliever. In those seasons, he got 11 decisions in 91 games. So it’s totally fair to judge him on W/L, right? After 92 when he became a starter (42 games, 26 starts), he was under .500 4 times.
1994: Not an awful season, but not good, 4.48 ERA (96 ERA+). Slightly below average, but I’ll say, fine, he “deserved” his losses there.
1996: he was 9-10 with a 3.19 ERA (134 ERA+). Yeah he really stunk it up that year. God what a terrible ERA. No wonder he lost games. Totally his fault. 100%. His run suppor that year was a GINORMOUS 3.86. How could ANYONE lose with that team?!?!
2000: 11-12, 3.81 ERA (124 ERA+), switched teams mid-season, 6-6 with Philly, 5-6 with Arizona. So again, good ERA, bad W/L record. Seems to me like it’s definitely not entirely his fault. 4.80 run support. That’s good, but so is a 3.81 ERA.
2003: 8-9 with a 2.95 ERA (159 ERA+). A sub .500 record with a sub 3 ERA means one of, or both of, two things: bad run support or bad luck. He had run support of 3.40 that year.
He was at .500 in 2005. He was old and sucked that year. But those other years, in 3/4 of them, it seems he was more the victim of bad luck and poor run support. That’s why Schilling had “mediocre” seasons.