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The trouble with Tazawa

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Nov 24, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Red Sox, based on some reports, are close to signing Junichi Tazawa of Japan. He’s a 22-year-old Japanese amateur player who has a chance to be pretty good depending on the scout you ask. Others think he doesn’t throw hard enough.

But whether Tazawa is any good or not isn’t the point. The point is that he is an amateur player and by signing him, the Red Sox would break a decades-old informal agreement between the Major Leagues and the Japanese leagues not to pilfer amateur players from each other’s country.

For the Japanese, this is a huge potential problem. If they can’t keep their best players in the Pacific and Central Leagues for at least a few years, the quality of their baseball will quickly diminish.

So what do you care? You’re a fan of the Yankees, not Japanese baseball. Here’s the problem: The Yankees could have five or six picks in the first 50 slots of the draft in June. What is keeping a well-financed Japanese team from sending scouts to high school or college games in the United States in May and signing top prospects? Nothing.

No, they wouldn’t get everybody. But they could make a dent in the quality of the draft. Think Scott Boras might like that option for a client who goes in the first round? That would be leverage.

Several teams scouted and are pursuing Tazawa, but the Yankees sat this one out. Brian Cashman said from the start that he would abide by the agreement, as did most teams. This is a mess for MLB, which can’t force teams like Boston to abide by rules that don’t really exist.

The solution would be to come up with an ironclad rule and perhaps that will be the legacy Tazawa leaves. But for now, there’s a hole in the system and some teams that don’t care about doing the right thing are walking through it.

————

As for the rest of the hot stove, it seems like everybody is waiting for CC Sabathia to make his move. Once Sabathia makes a decision, that will clarify what the Dodgers, Angels and Yankees do and the ripples go out from there. Sabathia’s decision also figures to prod A.J. Burnett into a move.

As of right now, the only known offers are from the Yankees and Brewers. Agent Greg Genske does not have any leaks in his organization, however, so nobody is quite sure where the big lefty stands. It’s a waiting game.

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421 Responses to “The trouble with Tazawa”

  1. drew November 24th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    Woohoo! Another reason to hate the Sox!

  2. miggs November 24th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    Interesting stuff Pete.

    Typical Red Sox…… no class.

  3. anskyboy November 24th, 2008 at 4:07 pm

    typical redsox behavior, the nerve

  4. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 4:11 pm

    here we go loop-ty-loop……. CC is waiting for offers from the Dodgers, Giants, Angels, etc… The Angels are waiting to see what they can do with Texeira before they go after CC, the dodgers, same thing with Manny… Tex is waiting probably on offers to come in, including seeing if the Yankees are going to jump in… And the Yankees are waiting on any play for Texiera until we know what happens with CC.

    cat chasing tail………

  5. Al from BK November 24th, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    “here we go loop-ty-loop……. CC is waiting for offers from the Dodgers, Giants, Angels, etc… The Angels are waiting to see what they can do with Texeira before they go after CC, the dodgers, same thing with Manny… Tex is waiting probably on offers to come in, including seeing if the Yankees are going to jump in… And the Yankees are waiting on any play for Texiera until we know what happens with CC.

    cat chasing tail………”

    I think CC’s agent is trying to wait for a WC teams offer. However the Giants are obviously trying to fix their anemic offense at the moment. I think this might come down to the Winter meetings and if the sluggers stay in the West CC will land here by default.

  6. Bill from NJ November 24th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    it all starts with CC

  7. Bill from NJ November 24th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    didn’t CC say he wanted this done before thanksgiving?

  8. mel November 24th, 2008 at 4:26 pm

    Bill,

    That was before the end of the season, when everyone thought there’d be a bullrush for CC. The Yankees offer kind of killed the market for CC.

    The only bullrush there will be is if the Yankees pull out and then the true market for CC will arise.

  9. KennyH123 November 24th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    CC is in a quandary. He wants no part of NY or the Yankees. He loves the west coast, and really likes to hit, but every other team is scared to get into a bidding war with the Yankees and aren’t even making offers…

    And there’s the Players Association, which will raise holy hell with CC if he doesn’t take what is certain to be a much larger offer from the Yankees over everyone else.

  10. Stephen November 24th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    Pete, I know you’re throwing red meat to the lions with this post, but are the Yankees really abiding by the unwritten rule, or avoiding iffy Japanese pitchers and using the high road as a convenient excuse? Let’s say Igawa had never happened and a pitcher of Matsuzaka’s quality was out there. Do you think Cashman would still hold out?

    I’m not trying to be a jerk; I’m honestly asking.

    Also, the Braves, Rangers and Mariners have also made Tazawa an offer, according to the Globe.

  11. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 4:30 pm

    It still starts with CC, but it’s also about Tex and Manny… and Furcal for that matter. If these teams can’t land their primary position players, they may all of a sudden have a lot more money to throw at CC.

    Best thing for us (in terms of CC, but probably overall) would be for the Dodgers to sign Furcal AND Manny, and for the Angels to sign Tex. Then they’re both likely out of the CC game.

  12. Mully1110 November 24th, 2008 at 4:31 pm

    Yes we all know of the Yankees high principles.Or just maybe,they are a little scared after the Kei Igawa debacle.

  13. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    This might be a dumb question, but what’s the difference between signing a prospect from Japan and a pro from Japan?

    Hideki Matsui, Ichiro Suzki, and Dice-K all signed contracts and play in this country. They are obviously all great players. Doesn’t that diminish baseball in Japan?

    And, about the argument that Japan could sign many prospects from the US – I would imagine that most kids would prefer to stay in this country.

    Again, I’m just realy confused about this “problem” (except for the Red Sox getting a guy they wanted).

  14. ABUSARE November 24th, 2008 at 4:34 pm

    Pete, go rest and enjoy your vacation. Don’t bother wasting time with us! You already work hard as it is.

  15. Tom November 24th, 2008 at 4:34 pm

    I usually don’t bash the Red Sox because they have a great system, but, why do they get a free pass here. I know the rule is a “hand shake agreement”; however, if it were the Yankees doing this there would be outrage.

    That being said it take two to tango and Tazawa isn’t being forced to come to the U.S.. It was his choice.

  16. ABUSARE November 24th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    What do you guys think about Andrew Brackman? Is he better than Betances? Doubt it

  17. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    “He wants no part of NY or the Yankees.”

    I’ve seen no quotes from CC to support that what-so-ever. Saying he “likes the idea” of playing close to home is not the same as saying he wants no part of NY or the Yankees.

  18. CanIGetAMooseCall November 24th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    Why are the Yanks focused only on pitching. Look at the offense! If the Yanks don’t re-sign Abreu, then I ask you: Who will bat third in the lineup?? There is no good answer.

  19. Tom November 24th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    Wasn’t Soriano a minor league player in Japan?

    It’s not apples to apples because Sori isn’t a native of Japan…

  20. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    Josh, it would be diminished more if their top players never even hit professional levels. It’s one thing if their best pros leave after a few years, it’s another if they never even played in the pros there.

  21. LathamJoe November 24th, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    “What is keeping a well-financed Japanese team from sending scouts to high school or college games in the United States in May and signing top prospects? Nothing.”

    Not that I’m against the “Gentlemen’s Agreement” that most MLB owners have with the Japanese Professional Baseball Team Owners, but:

    First, the Japanese currently have a quota on teams signing foreign (especially American) players for their Baseball Leagues since it would further reduce participation by Japanese-born players.

    Second, the money offered to foreign players by Japanese owners will not be as great as MLB teams will offer.

    Third, (and I have no definite confirmation of this issue) American baseball players do not enjoy the best treatment by Fans of Japanese Baseball.

  22. Jeff November 24th, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    The “handshake agreement” is an unfair restriction of the right of the worker to peddle his services to the highest bidder. Kudos to the Sox for ignoring it.

  23. Nibble Not November 24th, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    Very interesting points – but you’ve seen how Japanese pros have struggled to make the cross-oceanic adjustment.

    How many American high school grads/college youths are going to thrive going the other way?

    In Japan, the US is a familiar entity (if only through TV, ads, movies, etc.)

    But to a young American baseball player, Japan could seem like going to outer space.

    In the end, it comes down to this: any guy with the talent to be in the bigs should get his shot at the bigs (without waiting until he’s around thirty, and without the decision left in his team’s hands to sell negotiating rights to an MLB team (where some guys might get the opportunity at a young age, while others are denied)).

    I wish Hideki Matsui could have had his sooner in his career. Ah, to think of him in his prime in the Bronx!

  24. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 24th, 2008 at 4:40 pm

    “Who will bat third in the lineup?? There is no good answer.”

    Matsui will bat 3rd.

  25. mel November 24th, 2008 at 4:40 pm

    Josh,

    Just imagine if there were a better league than MLB and they cherry-picked your top talent before they even hit the minors. Would you, as a baseball fan like that?

    If you’re team suffered through a lottery pick season and you were looking forward to an Alex Rodriguez, Josh Hamilton, or David Price, wouldn’t you be disappointed, outraged even that this other league grabbed the kid before the draft?

    Why would he go, you ask? Well, it’s a better league. They’re offering you a big bonus as an amateur. And have likely promised to fast-track you.

    It’s an international agreement and it’s a shame it came to this, but the JPL set itself up when none of the teams drafted Tazawa, most likely because of an owners pact.

  26. Corey November 24th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    Varitek offered a 1-year deal? man, whats this Joe Torre part 2? He wont take that

  27. CB November 24th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    “This might be a dumb question, but what’s the difference between signing a prospect from Japan and a pro from Japan? ”

    It’s a huge difference. You’d potentially be cutting off the lifeblood of Japanese baseball.

    If MLB starts taking amateurs from Japan then many of the most talented players in Japan will never play pro ball there. The country will never have the ability to see them play.

    What if Matsuzaka or Matsui had just skipped playing in Japan at all. They’d never be known there they way they are now. The fans in Japan would never have had the opportunity to watch them play at all.

    Without new talent any league will be diminished.

    Take European soccer as an example. They soak up all of the talent from around the world and do it when players are very young. That’s why so many domestic leagues in south america and africa never develop.

    The only connection those fans have to those players are through international competitions like the world cup. Baseball has nothing comparable and given the length of the season it would be difficult to set up.

    This is a real shot at Japanese baseball. I’m surprised the Sox are doing this given what’s at stake.

  28. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    Chris – I see your point, but then that seems even more unfair to Japanese baseball. After Japanese teams take the time, money, and effort to develop their players, American teams can just choose the top guys to sign.

  29. Patrick November 24th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    “Who will bat third in the lineup?? There is no good answer.”

    Alex Rodriguez.

  30. Corey November 24th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    Arod batting third is great…..if you have a good hitter in the 4 slot (see Ortiz-Ramirez)

  31. CB November 24th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    “are the Yankees really abiding by the unwritten rule, or avoiding iffy Japanese pitchers and using the high road as a convenient excuse?”

    Many of the initial reports on Tazawa were glowing – he throws 97-98, great arm, etc.

    Now none of that looks true. But for sometime it seemed like he was a plus prospect.

    I don’t think the yankees ever seriously got into his evaluation. The Sox have supposedly been watching him for a while.

    I do think it had much more to do with the Yankees not wanting to break this tacit agreement than the specific talent or lack thereof of Tazawa.

  32. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    Oh ok, just read the last few posts. I understand now – thanks guys!

  33. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    “but then that seems even more unfair to Japanese baseball”

    Exactly the point Pete’s making, diminishes Japanese baseball and could kill things for their fans.

    But, I think we’re talking about amateurs before they’re even drafted by Japanese pro teams. I’m not sure if they have a similar minor league system over there like MLB, but either way, we’re talking about before they even get drafted into any minor league system over there.

  34. Patrick November 24th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    Matsui is a good 4 slot hitter.

  35. Al from BK November 24th, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    “What do you guys think about Andrew Brackman? Is he better than Betances? Doubt it”

    Betances might be ready sooner because Brackman is coming off TJ’s. However long-term Brackman projects as a beast. 95-97 mph and great stuff.

  36. Raphy November 24th, 2008 at 4:47 pm

    Maybe the Red Sox don’t care because they are annoyed by the enormous posting fee that they’ve paid in the past for Japanese players.

  37. Patrick November 24th, 2008 at 4:47 pm

    The Japanese draft was on October 30 and Tazawa was not selected. Prior to the draft he asked the league to not select him so he could sign with an MLB team.

  38. CB November 24th, 2008 at 4:48 pm

    “The “handshake agreement” is an unfair restriction of the right of the worker to peddle his services to the highest bidder. Kudos to the Sox for ignoring it.”

    Huh… funny how the Sox are never all that enthusiastic about the “right of the worker to peddle his services to the highest bidder” when the yankees sign free agents off the market.

    For example, the Sox were thrilled when Jose Contreras peddled his services as an amateur to the highest bidder. Or was that whole “evil empire talk” really just all fun and games?

    The rights of workers are great when it doesn’t adversely impact your own bottom line.

  39. RalphieD (Cant Wait for Spring Training) November 24th, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    am i so naive that i still scoff at the idea that CC doesnt want to be a yankee. just because he hasnt said yes to the yankees offer doesnt mean he doesnt want to accept it. it is down right common sense to wait a little bit and gauge the market.

  40. Al from BK November 24th, 2008 at 4:51 pm

    Pirates signed 2 Indian pitchers. Thats sort of odd I thought they only played cricket and soccer in India.

  41. Simon November 24th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

    Didn’t the Japanese teams consent to this by agreeing not to draft Tazawa?

  42. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

    Ralphie, you’re not naive, you’re logical.

  43. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

    Honestly,
    If CC isn’t jumping at 140 million when no other offers are going to come remotely close then he doesn’t want to play here in NY. Also, he is a great regular season pitcher but in the playoffs he stinks. In 8 playoff games he is 2-5 including losing his last 3, ERA over 7.00.

    The Yanks should be grateful when he goes to a west coast team – 140 million is a lot to pay for a guy who not be able to win big games and 6 years is a long time to stay healthy when you weigh 250+ lbs and pitch 240 innings a year.

  44. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 4:54 pm

    Anyone know how the draft works in Japan? Does not drafting him give him the right to sign with an MLB team, or does he have the right just not sign with a Japanese team and sign with an MLB team? Meaning, did they agree not to draft him only because he said he wouldn’t sign…?

  45. Patrick November 24th, 2008 at 4:54 pm

    Not really Simon. They didn’t draft him because they knew that Tazawa was going to the MLB no matter what. If they drafted him it would be a wasted pick.

    Japanese teams can’t compete with the Red Sox when it comes to money.

  46. Patrick November 24th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    “If CC isn’t jumping at 140 million when no other offers are going to come remotely close then he doesn’t want to play here in NY. ”

    Did you ever think that perhaps CC is trying to drive his price up even further? Wouldn’t it be smart to spread rumors that he really wants to play in CA and doesn’t like NY in an attempt to make the Yanks increase the offer?

    Also, these teams have big money. The Yanks aren’t the only team that can offer CC 140 mil.

  47. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 4:58 pm

    Vito, what evidence do you, or CC, have at this point to say that no other team will come even remotely close to 140M? Rumors have already been out there of 120 from the Dodgers and he could decide that’s enough to take that and stay at home. But first he has to actually get the offers before he can decide. Anyone that would jump at the first offer without hearing other offers would be an idiot.

    Further, I’m not ready to judge anyone after 8 games and insist he can’t pitch in the playoffs. He looked pretty damn good against us in the ALDS in ’07.

  48. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 24th, 2008 at 4:58 pm

    Jeff’s 4:38 post has it right. It’s unfair restriction of an individual’s right to sell his/her services on an open market.

    Before Curt Flood, there was an analogous “gentleman’s agreement” among major league owners to “respect” the exclusive bargaining rights of the individual teams with their players. The players had little leverage in seeking alternative employment …. it was a “take it or leave it” environment.

    As we say in RI, this “gentleman’s agreement” is nothing more than “two friends meeting a stranger.”

  49. Vrsce November 24th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

    The Yankees were very smart to make their 140mm offer to CC so quickly.

    With the Brewers at 100mm any other team must go to at least 130 or not bother and it looks like they are not bothering.

  50. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 5:00 pm

    “Also, these teams have big money. The Yanks aren’t the only team that can offer CC 140 mil.”

    A very good point that no-one is talking about. If the Angels don’t sign Tex or k-rod, and the dodgers don’t sign furcal and manny… people don’t think they’ll have some money to throw at CC? Whether or not they WILL spend that kind of money remains to be seen. But they can.

  51. Pete Caiola November 24th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    This is an interesting article Pete.I have a few questions for you. What are the benefits of high school or college players signing with a japanese team? The money doesn’t seem more appealing to me. Also why would they sign with a japanese team if they can make a major league roster?

  52. LathamJoe November 24th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    “Also, he is a great regular season pitcher but in the playoffs he stinks.”

    Vito:
    Last time I looked, the Yankees didn’t even make the Playoffs. I’ll take C.C.’s regular season contributions and deal with his Post Season inconsistency IF and WHEN they make the Playoffs.

  53. CB November 24th, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    “eff’s 4:38 post has it right. It’s unfair restriction of an individual’s right to sell his/her services on an open market.”

    So then you are against the amateur draft in baseball? That is a huge confinement to the individual’s right to sell his services on an open market.

    I assume that you are also against the idea of players being under team control for 6 years before they can hit the open market.

    Also a huge barrier to players selling his services to the highest bidder.

    You are against revenue sharing and the luxury tax also?

    And I also assume you ‘ve never taken exception to the yankees spending so much money on pay roll?

    The yankees are the most pro-open market team in all of baseball.

  54. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

    I’m still worried that CC won’t sign. To me, he does’t seem like an East coast guy. And yea, $140 million is a ton of money, but players don’t always go for the biggest deal (though it’s hard to imagine anyone turning down that deal).

    Last year, Mike Lowell turned down offers of more money and years to stay in Boston. He liked playing there, he liked his team, and his family liked the area.

  55. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 5:05 pm

    Patrick,
    Trying to drive it up to what? Perhaps another 10 million on top of 140 million? No other team is gonna come close to 140 mil and the Yankees know this. We are talking about the richest contract for a pitcher in history at a time of a major recession where most teams, if not all but the Yankees, are looking to save money. He has already made over 33 million in his career. He will go where he feels comfortable and NY isn’t it. SF or LA for 110 to 120 million will be fine to him.

  56. mel November 24th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    Josh,

    Not to worry. It’ll all work out. We’re the Yankees.

  57. S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers November 24th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    RalphieD (Cant Wait for Spring Training) November 24th, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    am i so naive that i still scoff at the idea that CC doesnt want to be a yankee. just because he hasnt said yes to the yankees offer doesnt mean he doesnt want to accept it. it is down right common sense to wait a little bit and gauge the market.

    ———————————————————

    ssssssshhhhh! Common sense has no place here. :)

  58. Bobby November 24th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    NPB is already less popular than MLB in Japan. So thinning their talent pool isn’t a big deal. At this point, the death of NPB to nothing more than a minor league is pretty much a certainty over the next couple of decades. As for this gentleman’s agreement, well, by none of the NPB teams drafting him, I think that’s their way of saying “We don’t care, take him” I think Cashman sitting this out has more to do with the mixed feelings on him from scouts rather than that agreement. Let the Red Sox spend their money on another pitcher the jury is out on. We already made our mistake with Igawa.

  59. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

    “any other team must go to at least 130 or not bother and it looks like they are not bothering”

    They may be, but they also may be waiting on other things to develop or not develop (Tex, Manny, etc). Time will tell. Probably a little of both, or one or the other depending on which team we’re talking about.

  60. CB November 24th, 2008 at 5:09 pm

    “He will go where he feels comfortable and NY isn’t it. SF or LA for 110 to 120 million will be fine to him.”

    I’d venture to guess that no other player in modern baseball history has left $30-40M on the table.

    I don’t think that’s ever happened. Not that much money. I don’t think it’s ever been close to $30-40M turned down.

    So sure, CC could be the first free agent in history to do that.

    Based on everything we know about free agency, however, that won’t happen.

  61. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 5:09 pm

    Mel – haha, very good point. We are the Yankees and everyone should be very afraid.

  62. mel November 24th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

    Mel – haha, very good point. We are the Yankees and everyone should be very afraid.

    Josh,

    You do realize I meant that we’ll be okay even if we don’t get CC, right? ;)

  63. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    Chris,
    You prove my point. If he is waiting for 120 million from the Dodgers or someone else then he doesn’t want to play here, even for 20 million more.

    Also, against us in the playoffs in 07 he was horrible – we just didn’t nail him when we had the chance. His line:
    5 IP 4 H 3 ER 6 BB

    Against the red sox he was awful and lost both starts
    with a combined 10+ ERA

    It’s all at http://www.baseball-reference......c.01.shtml

  64. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    Another point that people aren’t talking about. Even if CC knows he will never spend the money in his lifetime… that doesn’t mean his kids, grand kids, great great grand kids, etc… won’t. If he’s as big a family man as people say, he’s thinking about that as well. Quality time with his family has value too. But just because one man dosn’t need 30 or 40 million when he already has 110 or 120, doesn’t mean he’ll leave such a large amount of money on the table when umpteen generations below him can be set for their lives before they’re even born.

  65. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 5:16 pm

    Vito, my point is we don’t know yet if he would take the 120M because it hasn’t been offered, as far as we know…. If it is offered and he takes it, yes, that’d be a pretty good sign he wanted to stay home. Still doesn’t mean he doesn’t “like NY,” but would at least mean he prefers LA/SF, etc.. But until the offers come in, all he is doing is being wise and seeing what offers will come.

    For all we know, the Angels could throw 145M at him tomorrow. And he’d feel like a fool if he signed with the Yankees tonight for 140 and realized he could have gotten 150……..

  66. Chris NY November 24th, 2008 at 5:18 pm

    and I stand corrected about his game against us in the ALDS. I do now remember thinking we should have beaten him.. Still a small sample though.

  67. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 5:19 pm

    Mel – Oh yea, I know. CC would just greatly lower my levels of stress during the season.

  68. bru November 24th, 2008 at 5:19 pm

    Mully1110
    November 24th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
    Yes we all know of the Yankees high principles.Or just maybe,they are a little scared after the Kei Igawa debacle.

    ============================================================

    after igawa i wouldn’t sign another japanese ballplayer,batboy,coach & i would beat the crap out of matsui.

  69. Patrick November 24th, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    Vito, I didn’t realize you were such good friends with Sabathia. I mean, how else would you know where he feels comfortable? I also didn’t realize you had such intimate knowledge of every MLB team’s finances. You are a pretty well connected guy Vito!

    Back to my point. Its plausible to believe that a team like the Dodgers or Angels could offer Sabathia CLOSE to what the Yankees offered. If the rumor is out there that Sabathia prefers CA and would leave money on the table don’t you think theres a chance that the Yanks will increase the offer even more to try and sweeten the pot and get CC to sign?

    Honestly, CC would be pretty dumb to sign with the Yankees right now when there are no other serious offers on the table. My prediction is that CC will wait until mid-December for one of the California teams to offer him $120 mil or higher. If a team does he will go back to the Yankees and try to get extra money. After that (whether the Yanks bite or not), he’ll sign with the highest bidder which will be the NYY.

  70. LathamJoe November 24th, 2008 at 5:21 pm

    Regardless of whether he accepts the Yankee offer or not, Cashman HAS to go all out to sign c.c for him to improve the Yankees’ hopes of making a Post Season appearance in 2009.
    Don’t focus on CC’s Post Season performance – focus on his regular season contributions to GET HIS TEAM THERE!
    Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens didn’t have great Post season performances in their first few years either.

  71. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 5:21 pm

    LathamJoe,
    Difference of opinion but give me the guy who gets it done in October. We won 89 games with Rasner and Ponson as 2/5 the rotation. CC gets us maybe 10 more wins for 20 million more dollars a year and another first round exit. Give me Lowe instead who has done it in the AL East and in the playoffs before. CC is over rated and does not want to play here – it’s a recipe for disaster

  72. mel November 24th, 2008 at 5:22 pm

    I don’t think CC’s holding out for more money or that the Yankees would necessarily offer it.

    CC’s just waiting for anyone to step up so he can make a decision.

    Things don’t operate in a vacuum. Even $140M offers.

  73. bru November 24th, 2008 at 5:22 pm

    j/k i love matsui.

    it is very hard to scout japanese players because they never played against major leaguers so there is no measuring stick,the balls in japan are smaller i believe & i think they might pitch every six days.

  74. ANSKY November 24th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

    One thing about Japanese pro baseball is that it’s unable to compete with US pro baseball on the financial front. This signing by the Sox would be bad for them unless they invested successfully in our younger prospects. If they did it would be less bad because they could land more prospects that want to make $$$ sooner, but it would still be bad. All the real good ones would want to play here eventually, so Japanese pro leagues would be like an extension of our minor leagues.

    I remember Alfonso Soriano having some kind of problem with this before he left for to the US, and whatever settlement they came up with then will be much harder to reach now. A major difference with Soriano and Tazawa is that Tazawa is Japanese while Soriano was a ‘foriegner’. It’s more important over there.

    It gets complicated in more ways that have the time to understand. Any wise Japanese team owner would sign prospects for long term. If a few of these guys turn out to be real studs, look out. Typical Japanese players have to play for the same team for something like 8 or 9 years before they’re allowed to be free agents. This would prevent them from leaving until they’re leaning towards the end of their best years, unless they’re allowed to be ‘posted’. Now does anyone remember this fiasco?

    Do you think the Red Sox set an absurd standard for posting fees with Matsuzaka? That ain’t nothing if you think about it. Wait until you see what Japanese teams will expect when they find out they accidentally discovered the next Albert Pujols, he decides he wants to move to the big leagues, and they want to make up for the revenues they lost in the meantime. Any thought there could have been of changing the posting system to something a little more reasonable just went out the window.

    One thing for sure, they’ll be happy to take ‘a little extra’ from Boston & Mr Epstein.

  75. saucY November 24th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    “after igawa i wouldn’t sign another japanese ballplayer,batboy,coach & i would beat the crap out of matsui.”

    i’m not sure what’s worse: this statement or the fact that i laughed…

  76. CB November 24th, 2008 at 5:28 pm

    “Difference of opinion but give me the guy who gets it done in October. ”

    You didn’t watch any of the Brewers games down the stretch did you?

    That team was collapsing as badly as nearly an team in recent history (mets 2007 excluded…).

    They fired their manager with 12 games to go. That’s how bad it was.

    And the only reason they made it to post season play was because CC put that entire team on his back and carried them in.

    What he did was phenomenal – every game he pitched was a playoff game.

    He took the ball on short rest time and time again just to pitch that team into the post season. He did it knowing that he was about to be a free agent and that he could get hurt. But he did it anyway for a team that was using him as a rental.

    He did as much to will his team into the playoffs by pitching one big game after another as any pitcher we’ve seen in years.

  77. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 5:29 pm

    Bru – I think you’re right about Japanese pitchers. I remember reading an article about Dice-K when he first came over. He was struggling to handle the larger ball. I’m not sure how often they pitch, but I believe they throw a lot during a game. Dice-K once threw 250 pitches during a 17-inning game. I’m amazed his arm didn’t fall off after that.

    With that in mind, it will be interesting to see the affect of minor league baseball on Tazawa if he gets signed.

  78. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 24th, 2008 at 5:29 pm

    CB ….. re: your 5:02 post. Many of you points are well-taken, but much of the present “restriction” on free trade is the result of collective bargaining stpulations which have given both sides an opportunity for “give and take.” Admittedly, MLB is a “closed shop,” wherein U.S. amateurs have to comply with MLB mandates to become an MLB employee.

    And the luxury tax does somewhat hinder the ability of the Yankees (and Sox) to spend w/o consequences.

    Wokers’ rights is a labyrinth of legalities and past practice ….. and international workers’ rights is even more complex…… MLB certainly doesn’t always have it right, but the “agreement” restricting Tazawa doesn’t acknowledge that he has a dog in this fight.

  79. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 5:31 pm

    Ok so I just checked Wikipedia, and it claims it was a high school game and the previous day he threw 148 pitches in a complete game shutout. Wow.

  80. Vrsce November 24th, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    Brian (Red Sox fan)

    Very true,
    However the Yankees now have a partial shield against revenue sharing, which will help them from having to fund their rivals to the same extent as the past # of years.

  81. saucY November 24th, 2008 at 5:35 pm

    not that i’m endorsing signing tazawa or breaking any handshake agreements, but i would think it would be easier to develop a guy at tazawa’s age (adjust to ball size, leagues, etc…) than to take a pitcher who’s matured in the japanese leages, and try to teach an old dog new tricks…

  82. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 24th, 2008 at 5:37 pm

    Vrsce …. I think that the Yankees are shielded from revenue sharing (with the new stadium), but still pay an extra 40% for every payroll dollar above a predetermined cap number (about $145M?). I believe that they still take a full hit on the luxury tax.

  83. EricNS November 24th, 2008 at 5:38 pm

    If the Yankees signed him Larry Lucchino would say the evil empire extends to Asia – what a hypocrite that man is!!

  84. vin November 24th, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    “What are the benefits of high school or college players signing with a japanese team? The money doesn’t seem more appealing to me. Also why would they sign with a japanese team if they can make a major league roster?”

    See Josh Childress, formerly of the Atlanta Hawks, now playing in Greece. He has the skills to get real minutes in the NBA, but realized that he’d be at the top of the pay-scale in Greece, as opposed to mid-level $ in the US.

    ARod or Pujols wouldn’t cross the Pacific… buy a guy with talent, who is feeling “underappreciated” might.

  85. i am the walrus November 24th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

    What I haven’t seen mentioned here is the Japanese culture puts great stock in agreements that are not written down in “rules”. This is true of all the oriental cultures.

    This isn’t about fighting for competitive rights, it is a direct slap at the Japanese honor.

    While this is toned down through the generations, something like this can cause rippling effects in Japan.

  86. CB November 24th, 2008 at 5:42 pm

    Brian,

    Tazawa clearly does have a dog in this fight.

    That said come on the Sox are hardly doing this because they believe in the rights of the workers to sell their services to the highest bidder.

    Did you feel this same way then the yankees outbid the Sox for Jose Contreras? And did you think Larry Luchino was asinine for calling the yankees an “evil empire” because they bought Contreras’s services on the open market?

    As I recall, Sox fans were pretty happy that Matsuzaka could not sell his rights to the highest bidder but had to only deal with the Sox. I remember plenty of Sox fans also not being all that thrilled when Boras was doing everything he could to make sure Matsuzaka got every nickel he could.

    Using a free market argument to justify Tazawa is just a real stretch. The entire financial system baseball has erected is designed to decrease free market competition for talent – whether its the draft for arbitration or whatever.

    And much of the recent financial architecture in baseball has been specifically designed to hamper the yankee’s enormous financial advantage.

    So if Tazawa has a dog in this fight so did David Price two years ago when he was drafted by the Rays #1. So did Tim Beckam – who got drafted #1 and wasn’t even the highest paid player in the draft.

    Stephen Strasbourg has a huge dog in this fight come this spring. The yankees would be more than happy to buy the rights to his services for $15M or so if they were allowed to.

    If the Sox sign Tazawa so be it. Theo probably thinks the globalization of the game means that “gentleman’s agreements” are dead and the Japanese just need to accept they have no power here.

    But let’s no hear how the Sox are doing this for altruistic reasons related to worker’s rights.

  87. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    Patrick,
    It’s not rocket science. Look here http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/ for info on the teams payrolls and contract commitments and then look at the general markets/economy/owners involved and you tell me who else comes close to offering 140 mil for 6 years of Sabathia? Who offers 120 mil? Dodgers? The best bet but far from a given. The Angels? Maybe, but they have pitching and need hitting thus their pursuit of Teixera. Same for the Giants. That’s it – Brewers are token and not really in it. As for his comfort – he is from California. He likes the NL so he can hit – all well documented. Yes, CC should wait and probably decide officially right around the winter meetings come December 8. However, all I am saying is if he wanted to be a Yankee and he has this deal in hand last week it would be a simple phone call to Angels/Dodgers/Giants saying what is your best offer? The entire winter hot stove is waiting on CC before anything else happens. If he is waiting for a market to develop… well it won’t because the rest of the market is waiting on HIM.

  88. jimmy1138 November 24th, 2008 at 5:46 pm

    Soriano used a loophole and retired in Japan to come over. Same as Nomo.

    On a side nore: Yu Darvish said yesterday he wants to win 200 games in Japan…

  89. ANSKY November 24th, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    Vin –

    Maybe not a guy who looks like Pujols, Bonds, Griffey Jr, Gooden, or A-Rod when they come out of high school, but some merely ‘pretty good’ young guys develop into all-stars a few years later.

    Someone who didn’t make the big step immediately like Bernie Williams or Mariano Rivera could end up held for ransom over there. Joba wasn’t Joba until he was a couple years older too. Posada became a catcher in the minors, and a pretty good one at that.

  90. 213 Area Code November 24th, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    Red Sox have always lacked class, but I never thought they were the type to create international baseball problems.
    Can’t wait for NYY to win ’09 WS so we can start changting “Two Thousand Seven”.

  91. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 5:51 pm

    CB,
    Yes CC pitched well down the stretch but he also lost to the reds and cubs in mid September. He beat the cubs the last day of the season when the Cubs had already clinched and had nothing really to play for. I also doubt he could do the same in the AL East or repeat the dominance he displayed in late 08 again in any league. I am not saying I wouldn’t be happy to have him, I’m just saying the expectations of him in NY along with the question of him wanting to be here has disaster written all over it.

  92. Kevin November 24th, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    Maybe if the Japanese leagues didn’t require 10 years of service time before free agency, players wouldn’t be in such a rush to jump ship. I understand national pride is a big deal over there, but can’t you understand not wanting to waste your prime playing years and window of earning potential playing in a far outpost of the game? Besides, he’s not being poached; he wanted to come to America and play here. You can still have the gentleman’s agreement not to recruit each other’s talent, but to deny a player employment when he seeks it is collusion.

  93. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    Now lets not just blame the Sox – shouldn’t any team pursuing Tazawa be considered responsible?

  94. Kevin November 24th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

    And please, how do the Red Sox lack class here? Stupidest argument I’ve heard in a while, and I just got done listening to Iowa fans chirping about how they belong in a better bowl than Michigan State or Northwestern.

  95. EDUB November 24th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

    We made an offer to Odalis Perez? I don’t get this move

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....ite-s.html

  96. LathamJoe November 24th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    Vito, Vito!
    5 Post Season starts is a pretty small sampling to pass on one of the premier Starters in MLB.

    I guess guys like Johan Santana (1-3 3.97 ERA) Jake Peavy (0-2 12.10), and Fausto Carmona (0-1, 3.70 ERA) would be disasters too?

  97. yankee21 November 24th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

    We do not know what if anything CC has said through his agent to the NYY. He may have simply said give me until Nov 30 and I’ll have a decision. He may have not said anything other than acknowledging receipt of offer.

    We also don’t know what he has said to the CA teams considered in the running. CC may have very well communicated a deadline for an offer and they are in the process of forming an offer,, or not. We just don’t know. I would imagine if CC got a CA offer that if it was anywhere close to NYY we would hear about it already though.

    What we do know is he hasn’t made a decision yet although he has stated publicly he doesn’t want to draw this out.

    It makes zero difference to NY with regards to how they may pursue AJ or Lowe or the man in the moon, as to how long CC takes, as long as NY has a strong indication one way or the other by the winter meetings,so that is two weeks .

    Any word from CC before then is nice, is convienent and helps out, but at least IMO, is not critical to off-season success.

  98. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 24th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

    CB —– where did I try to say that the Sox are on the moral high ground on this matter? I never said that the Sox are champions of workers’ rights.

    The Sox are involved in a fierce competition to win World Championships within the boundaries of existing rules, parameters, guidelines and traditions. They see a grey area here, and don’t seem to be that concerned about consequences. I would hope that their only motivation is to improve the team, and not to promote the rights of man.

    By the way, the Sox fed over $50M into Japanese baseball via the DiceK posting fee. I suspect that they bought a little good will with that amount.

    Please don’t accuse me (or the Sox) of altruism again … heaven forbid. Both the Yankees and Sox are playing for keeps, and “gentleman’s agreements” often get trampled in the pursuit of the prize.

  99. CB November 24th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

    “Yes CC pitched well down the stretch but he also lost to the reds and cubs in mid September. ”

    Vito,

    Come on. CC made 6 starts in 23 days during september. He threw 44 innings in those starts and had an ERA of 2.00.

    All of this ocurred while his team was in complete disarray. He was playing on a team filled with kids and one of the worst defenses in the league while they were literally choking.

    And he pitched them into the playoffs. Those were all huge games – all tantamout to playoff games.

    If you don’t think CC will be a good signing fine. But don’t knock what he did for the Brewers because it was remarkable.

    And it was completely selfless – if I were his agent i would have never let him throw that many innings for a team that clearly could have cared less about CC’s health as they were only renting him.

  100. RJPinstripes November 24th, 2008 at 6:02 pm

    And if the Saxx DO sign Tazawa, do the Japanese League ban the Soxx from signing any Japanese Players? If the Japanese leagues are so upset (as reported) I’m sure they will do something!

  101. CB November 24th, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    “where did I try to say that the Sox are on the moral high ground on this matter? I never said that the Sox are champions of workers’ rights.”

    Brian,

    This is what you wrote on your 4:58 post:

    “Jeff’s 4:38 post has it right. It’s unfair restriction of an individual’s right to sell his/her services on an open market.

    Before Curt Flood, there was an analogous “gentleman’s agreement” among major league owners to “respect” the exclusive bargaining rights of the individual teams with their players. ”

    Comparing Tazawa to Curt Flood?

  102. ANSKY November 24th, 2008 at 6:06 pm

    Curt Frood?

  103. ANSKY November 24th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    (yes I know who he was)

  104. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 24th, 2008 at 6:09 pm

    If you ask me, there should have been an ironclad agreement in place so that something like this wouldn’t happen.

    I think the Sox are dirty scoundrels anyways, but I don’t think they should be looked down upon for doing something that isn’t against the rules.

  105. SJ44 November 24th, 2008 at 6:09 pm

    I love the 12 year olds who come on here with their small sample size (“CC can’t pitch in the playoffs) stat quoting.

    Another shining example on how not to use stats to make cogent points when discussing baseball.

    Don’t really understand the Red Sox reasoning here. Tazawa is a nothing special prospect. Most of the guys who have seen him see him as “pedestrian” and nothing more.

    Pi$$ing off the Japanese will only cost them Darvish when he eventually gets posted. He’s actually a kid with MUCH greater upside than Tazawa. What’s the point?

    The idea is to sign the GOOD japanese players.

    Better them than the Yankees in this situation.

  106. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 24th, 2008 at 6:12 pm

    yankee21,

    I tend to agree with everything you just wrote.

    The thing is…it hasn’t even been two weeks since the Yankees made their offer, so its not like he is dragging this out.

    I wish he’d just decide on the Yankees today but it doesn’t work like that.

    People are just impatient about exciting possibilities.

  107. Bob November 24th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

    It is a free world. Allow ANY person any where in the world to get paid as much as he or her can get paid by anyone anywhere offering them the most for their services.

  108. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 24th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    CB …. not to get semantical, but my initial post agreed with Jeff on the fact that there is a restriction of trade issue.

    I did NOT say that it is the motivation for the Sox apparent offer, nor is it a particular concern of mine. I just hope that the Sox snuck through the loophole to get a good player.

    But you could compare Tazawa with Curt Flood, in that they both had/have a dog in the fight. The motivation of both players was/is enhancing their employment/compensation opportunities.

  109. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 24th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    SJ44,

    I personally don’t read into the small sample of CC’s work in the playoffs, but from another perspective, it is the only sample we’ve seen, so you can understand why some would be quick to criticize him about that.

    But don’t fall into the trap of name-calling (calling people 12 year olds)…I got called out on it a week or two ago for calling Hughes “HUSELESS” and people got real upset and called it petty. I agree in hindsight.

  110. CanIGetAMooseCall November 24th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    Q: “Who will bat third in the lineup?? There is no good answer.”

    A: “Matsui will bat 3rd.”

    * * *
    Like I said, no good answer!

  111. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

    LJoe,
    Those 5 post season starts produced this line:
    G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H ER BB SO
    5 5 7.92 2 3 0 0 25 33 22 22 24

    Take away a decent 6 IP 2 ER start back in 2001 and he is even worse over the last 2 years. Small sample size? Well the playoffs have zero margin for error and no matter how you look at this it is horrible. 25 IP is signifigant sample size for the post season. Remember, this is not an ordinary contract – it is 140 million dollars for a pitcher over 6 years. Huge risk.

    I am not seeing how you can honestly compare Santana and Carmona with sub 4 post season ERA’s to Sabathia’s 7.92 ERA and say by my logic they would be disasters? The main difference is we aren’t paying those guys 140 million over 6 years. BTW Carmona’s post season ERA is 7.20 over 15 IP – not sure where you are getting 3.70 from. also, Peavey would be a disaster here as well – NL pitcher who can’t win the big game and doesn’t want to be here….sound familiar?

  112. SJ44 November 24th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    Nobody with any knowledge of baseball discusses one’s post-season skills off two appearances. Its just not done.

    Its done in the “stat world” of people (yes, namely 12 year olds) who believe stats are the only way to measure a player.

    CC Sabathia carried the Brewers into the playoffs in his walk year. He took the ball on short rest more times in a one month span than other, accomplished pitchers have in their entire careers.

    When assessing his talents, that is more telling to the people that matter (baseball GM’s) than his post-season numbers.

    The post-season is a crapshoot. Always has been, always will be. Some guys start off slowly in their post-season exploits (see Barry Bonds), only to pick it up when given more opportunities.

    When assessing players, you look at guys overall body of work. That’s how they are compensated. Not on small sample sizes of post-season work.

    I’m all for discussing baseball within some logical parameters. When folks post dumb stuff, they are going to get called on it. Its the way its always been on this blog and it ain’t changin’ soon.

  113. CB November 24th, 2008 at 6:26 pm

    “Small sample size? Well the playoffs have zero margin for error and no matter how you look at this it is horrible.”

    CC has thrown far more innings than any player in the game the past two years.

    Both this year and probably last – his teams were abusing him knowing that he wasn’t going to stay with them long term.

    The Brewers and the to a lesser extent the Indians the year before showed little regard for CC’s arm.

    And it came back to bite them in the playoffs, especially this year.

    CC was clearly tired in the post season. In the start he made for the brewers his arm slot was clearly falling and his pitches looked flat. He probably had a tired arm.

    No surprise when you’ve made 6 starts and thrown 44 innings in the previous 23 days.

    CC has a plus fastball, plus breaking ball and plus plus command. On top of that he’s 28 and left handed. Despite all of the innings he’s thrown his stuff has shown no signs of deteriorating.

    He’s one of the 5 best pitchers in the game – hands down.

  114. dave November 24th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    This is a perfect article that sums up why Sheets would be a better, wiser signing than Burnett. I hope everyone is in agreement that Lowe is not even close to as talented as Burnett and he is many years older and has been pitching in the NL (having very little success his last two seasons in the AL) so Lowe doesnt even need such a comparison. Anyone who believes we should go after Burnett or Lowe over sheets should check this out, it says it all. Mel definitely take a look.

    http://riveraveblues.com/2008/.....nett-6041/

  115. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 24th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    SJ44,

    I gotcha man and as far CC goes, I agree…too small of a sample to draw any realistic conclusions for. Heck, they say the same about A-Rod and I don’t buy it.

    I just think the name-calling is unnecessary…if you have a counterpoint, which 10 times out of 10 you do, then just go with that. You always back up your points pretty well.

    People are really sensitive on here. I guess they take their baseball really seriously :)

  116. Tom November 24th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    Doesn’t matter what we commenters think. What matters is what the Front Office thinks. According to Heyman the yankees “seem more enthused about Lowe than Burnett”.

    http://www.fannation.com/si_bl.....osts/26361

  117. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 24th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    “Like I said, no good answer!”

    oh please, what makes you think he’s not the answer?

  118. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 6:34 pm

    SJ44,
    25 IP is not a small sample size for the playoffs. If you think so then perhaps instead of name calling you could enlighten the board as to what an adequate playoff sample is? Also, by all means, explain to me how Sabathia can pitch in the playoffs and his stats don’t mean anything – I am all ears. Throw out the stats and convince me. I watched his starts – it is painfully obvious that Sabathia is spooked by the playoffs. Look at his performances – stats thrown out – just watching him. He was spooked against the Yankees but managed to gut it out mainly because the Yanks couldn’t get the big hit to finish him off. The Redsox killed him twice. The Phillies killed him. He had no control – BB’s out of sight – and looked like he was scared to death out on the big stage. He was basically like Arod. Maybe he was just pressing too hard – who knows – but from my vantage point he was clearly unraveled for some reason – every time out. No matter how you look at it he isn’t a big game pitcher right now. One can argue that division games against the NL central in September are big games but the NL central is NOT the AL east.

    Now, is 140 million over 6 years to lose in the division series worth it? Is it acceptable money to risk losing in a gamble that he will somehow figure out how to pitch in October on the world’s biggest stage with a fierce media watching and waiting to write stories on his record salary failure?

  119. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 24th, 2008 at 6:38 pm

    Vito,

    As CB pointed out, a lot of that could very well be attributed to being worn out.

    You have to consider CC’s workload the past couple years. While it may not be the total cause, it certainly is relevant when considering his postseason performance.

    I’m not sure I’ve noticed anything that would lead me to believe that CC is “spooked” by the playoffs and I’ve watched his starts too.

  120. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 6:40 pm

    CB,
    I think you just made the case of why he would be a bad signing. Tired arm, over worked, abused, etc. Yes, he helped the Brewers get to the playoffs in 08. Does that mean he will help us the same way each of the next 6 years for 23+ mil a year? If the plan is to develop aces, not trade/sign them, like the front office said last winter then why throw 140 million at a guy who is over worked, has questionable playoff makeup, and is more of a west coast guy?

  121. Matt from BU November 24th, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    “Further, I’m not ready to judge anyone after 8 games and insist he can’t pitch in the playoffs. He looked pretty damn good against us in the ALDS in ‘07.”

    While I agree that 8 games isn’t enough to judge whether or not CC can pitch in the postseason I do want to point out that in the 2007 ALDS CC only went 5 innings with 6 walks, if the Yankees could hit a lick in that game we would have dominated him.

  122. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 24th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

    Vito,

    Regarding your comment about developing players, yes, the idea is to develop them so you don’t have to sign or trade for guys AS MUCH.

    Just cuz Cashman wants to redevelop the farm doesn’t mean the Yankees are going to cease going after the right free agents.

    This is what is going to be incredible about the Yankees in the next 4 or 5 years. Their farm will be stacked, their team will be crazy good, and they can flex their financial might when necessary.

  123. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

    Prince,
    So if he is not spooked then lets say he is just worn out. Will a year long battle with the AL East rivals not wear him out for the 09 playoffs (and every year after)? 4 starts each against the Rays and RedSox + the rest of the AL which all have solid hitters 1 thru 9 – will that not produce the same dismal playoff results?

  124. dave November 24th, 2008 at 6:46 pm

    My dream signings for this off season in order of how bad i WANT them:

    CC Sabathia (current offer on the table: 6 years and 140 million)
    Mark Teixera (7 years and 160 million)
    Ben Sheets (2 years and 30 million with a club option for a third and inventives)
    Andy Pettitte (1 year and 10 million)
    Brian Fuentes (2 years and 15 million)

    That would be about 23.5 for Sabathia + about 22.5 for Tex +15 for Sheets +10 for Andy + 7.5 for Fuentes = 78.5 total. I think with the yanks breaking every attendance record known to man next season and selling more yankees items than they have in history not to mention the economy having no where to go but up, the yanks can afford to have a payroll comparable to last seasons. This would put them about even with last years salary. If that is absolutely not an option, i CAN live without Fuentes but this would be our team on paper: Rotation: CC, Wang, Sheets, Pettitte, Joba (take a gander at the average age of this rotation – it would be under 30 i believe for the first time in forever.) Lineup – Damon LF, Jeter SS, Arod 3B, Tex 1B, Matsui DH, Nady CF, Swisher RF, Posada C, Cano 2B. Bullpen – Mo, Fuentes, Marte, Coke, Aceves, Ramirez, Veras, Bruney, Britton and everyone in the minors. Hughes and Aceves could come in when someone is injured. What do you guys think?

  125. Vito November 24th, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    Prince,
    Key word is “right” free agents. Sabathia at that price tag is not right for us. If he had any kind of post season success, maybe – however he has NO recent playoff success (2001 being his only good game). If he wasn’t abused in the IP department then sure. Problem is he was. Honestly, game 7 at Fenway park ALCS. Sabathia for us, beckett for the Sox. You think we win that game?

  126. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 24th, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    Vito,

    Well, I think that CC has been leaned up on far more heavily on those teams than he would be with the Yankees.

    CB might be right when he says that Sabathia was “abused,” willingly or not.

    The Yankees are usually pretty good about getting their starters rest when necessary, right? Their bullpen is another story.

    We won’t know until we give it a whirl and I simply think that CC is definitely worth the risk, similar to Santana if it weren’t by trade.

  127. EDUB November 24th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Dave:

    All of those make sense except for Fuentes. No way he would come here to set up for Mo and we have no need for him whatsoever. I’m with you on CC/Sheets/Tex but knowing Boras that contract for Tex may need a year or two more

  128. CB November 24th, 2008 at 6:53 pm

    “I think you just made the case of why he would be a bad signing. Tired arm, over worked, abused, etc. ”

    No just the opposite. They should sign him whatever it takes (and by that I would go to 6/150 no problem…).

    What you’re not considering is this – what if CC was pitching during the regular season like most normal all star caliber pitchers do and used according to those work loads?

    How would he then pitch in the playoffs?

    Two years ago watching the Indians play I had the distinct feeling that they were basically going to throw CC until his arm fell off in order to make the playoffs. Just watching the way he was used you could tell the Indians didn’t think he was going to sign with them – so why not keep throwing him out there, especially when the pen stinks?

    Well they found out in the playoffs. CC just didn’t look sharp at all and I think the way he was used hurt the Indians.

    Last year with the Brewers – that was just ridiculous. They could have cared less how much they abused him. If they didn’t make the playoffs their organization would have looked idiotic for trading Matt LaPorta for CC and then collapsing down the stretch for the second year in a row.

    Despite knowing what the Brewers were doing – CC showed enormous heart and just kept taking the ball.

    Now instead of crediting him for that you are penalizing him and saying he’s essentially not a big game pitcher.

    That playoff game CC threw this year was a joke. You just have to throw it out the window because it was so obvious he was exhausted after being pushed so hard in September. There comes a point when the human arm can only do so much – and CC had to cross that line for the Brewers to even make it to the playoffs.

    His arm slot was falling and his slider was flat. He had no command in that playoff game. CC arguably has the best command of any pitcher in the game – and he was missing his spots left and right.

    It was obvious he was exhausted. That’s 100% why he pitched lousy in the playoffs this year. That I’m certain about.

    CC’s workload is a concern – but the more important thing with that is that his stuff hasn’t taken a hit in any way other than that playoff game.

    His stuff looked great in September.

    Quite honestly – in many ways I feel better about CC’s stuff moving forward than I did about Santana’s last year in terms of a long term contract.

    Santana was masterful this year for the mets. But his velocity was down and his slider is not the same as it was a year ago.

    I’ve seen none of that from CC.

  129. G. Love November 24th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

    Dave — Your numbers are all pretty reasonable in my eyes with the exception of Fuentes. He’s going to get a 3-4 year deal at 10 million plus. We also don’t need Fuentes with Marte locked up for the next 3 years.

    That said, I don’t think Cashman is going to add 70 million on free agents to the payroll.

    If he does, it’s a great off season for us in my eyes.

  130. dave November 24th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

    Not only do we get better but we get significantly younger, more athletic and more defensively oriented.

    Tex is 28 with a 996 FO at first and 2 gold gloves
    Swisher is 28 with a 986 FP in the outfield
    CC is 28
    Sheets is 30
    Fuentes is 33

    CC (28) Wang (28) Sheets (30) Pettitte (36) Chamberlain (23) average age of the rotation could be 29!! When was the last time we could say that?? We could be set up for years to come with Hughes and Betances as possible options in the next couple of years not to mention, kennedy and horne.

  131. LathamJoe November 24th, 2008 at 6:57 pm

    SJ44 is right on the money. You have to take into account the pitcher’s body of work verses a relatively small sampling of 25 Post season innings.
    With your logic, Jamie Moyer is a better signing than CC Sabathia and Josh Beckett’s last 14 1/3 Post Season innings makes him appear as a “disaster” too!

  132. CB November 24th, 2008 at 6:58 pm

    “Will a year long battle with the AL East rivals not wear him out for the 09 playoffs (and every year after)? ”

    One other thing I wanted to say.

    If CC is signed to the yankees long term the yankees would never do to CC what the Indians and Brewers did.

    They will use him in a way that will keep him fresh for the post season and will maximize the probability to stay healthy over the life of the contract.

    The yankee’s incentives to use CC will be the exact opposite of the Brewers.

    And even more importantly – the Yankees are lined up right now to have one of the top 3 bull pens in all of baseball.

    They won’t need CC to throw these ridiculous workloads.

    That will make a big difference come playoff time.

    CC has terrific stuff and great command. I have no concern with him pitching in the playoffs. None.

  133. AROD fan November 24th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

    CC is not “spooked” by the playoffs, he is ridiculously overworked to get to the playoffs. i would love to see how he would pitch when treated properly.

  134. Joe from Long Island November 24th, 2008 at 7:02 pm

    If AJ and Lowe are serious about 5-year deals, then they just might make the Cash and Hal start considering Sheets. If his the data on his arm is all right, then a much shorter term deal would also give the team the flexibility to plug in Hughes, IPK, Brackman, McAllister, Betances or whomever down the road if indicated.

    Cash always talks about roster flexibility, this wouldn’t be a bad place to start.

  135. CashBum November 24th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

    If CC doesnt want to sign with us move on… you cant just depend on one guy

  136. CashBum November 24th, 2008 at 7:08 pm

    i think CC doesnt want to sign because Giardi bans ice cream and candy in locker room…

  137. ZMAN7777 November 24th, 2008 at 7:08 pm

    Lots of folks are nitpicking about pitchers’ length of contracts, etc. The fact is that the Yankees need to fill 60% of their starting staff, and, in order for them to be competitive, two of the three need to be well above average.

    The offense should be decent next year, but not stellar, and the old lineup is yet one year older. Seems to be the Yankees cannot afford to play too much hardball with free agent starters.

  138. JeetMack-Clutch November 24th, 2008 at 7:15 pm

    if boston really wants to replace lowell, were they in on the Dayan Viciedo bidding?:

  139. dave November 24th, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    I will tell you why Fuentes makes sense and can be signed to a reasonable contract as a setup man. Look at how many free agent closers are on the market and established ones at that. All of the big market teams will sign big market closers. Fuentes is in my eyes halfway between a closer and a reliever in the AL. He can be signed at the right price as the eighth inning guy. It may take three years at between 7 and 10 million per but he could be signed to setup esp in this market. Why do we need him? I dont want the eighth inning in winning games to be a revolving door. Marte is our best lefty and he could be used as the setup guy but i dont think he nessecarily will or he may not thrive in it. Fuentes, with closer experience in the hitter friendly park in colorado would be an excellent pickup to setup for mo. i dont know what we can expect at of veras and ramirez next season but i know neither of them can be relied upon to set up for Mo for an entire season. I love fuentes, i wanted him last season and I want him this season. With that being said, I think he is the least important of the free agent signings mentioned above.

    The yanks ridiculous infatuation with Lowe and Burnett could be a result of the insane idea that those are the two best outside of CC and their is no others that are even close. Fact is, Sheets is better, younger and cheaper. if the yanks FO cant see that, they have to open their eyes and stop reading newspaper articles written by the media. It would be mind boddling if they didnt throw out an offer to sheets. They have to be smarter than that and realize that the only reason sheets is slipping under everyone radar is because he is currently injured. But he will be fine by spring training and he has more talent plus control than burnett and lowe. His injuries for the most part are completely unrelated while Burnett’s are totally entertwines. Lowe is old and would be totally ineffective in the AL east in my opinion.

  140. LathamJoe November 24th, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    If the Red Sox are looking to replace Lowell, they’ll make a big push for Teixeira and move Youkilis to Third.

  141. Terry #1 November 24th, 2008 at 7:30 pm

    Peter Abraham overstates the Japanese ability to dig into American prospects.

    There are 2 sides to this.

    1) The Japanese public themselves don’t want to cheer the “gaijin suketto”.

    The Japanese only want baseball stars of a very narrow racial distinction. Yes, foreign players can become big money in Japan, but no matter how good they become, they’ll always be looked at as inferior or lacking “wa”.

    In the worst case scenario, if the foreigner becomes TOO good, they’ll be run out of the league. One of the more famous examples was Bass.

    2) American prospects are very well aware of this; and if they don’t their network of scouts and friends know to remind them. If you can accept the Japanese for what they are rather than expect better of them, you can live quite well while letting their attitude roll off your back.

    But then, what self-respecting youth, especially with something to prove, would want to endure that treatment from a second-rate league when he had a shot at the majors where only the best players (not the best Japanese) are allowed to prosper.

  142. Gary November 24th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    Little if anything has been discussed so far of postseason samples sizes showing the run support a team gives a pitcher.
    A well pitched one run loss is still a well pitched game especially if a pitcher went deep in the game.
    It’s all measured in the winning pitcher of record come playoff time.

  143. MP November 24th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

    Vito,

    By the way you wrote the stats, it looks like CC has 25 CG in 5 starts. haha :)
    If only…..

  144. dave November 24th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

    Who would take lowell and his contract if they sign Tex? And how many players would have to change positions to make this happen? i am skeptical but only because I want to be.

  145. Al from BK November 24th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

    I think we need to sign these FA’s this offseason. CC, Tex, Sheets and resign Andy. Like I said earlier all of this could be done for around 70 million. CC-25 mil, Tex-20 mil, Sheets 15 mil(on a shortened incentive laden deal), Pettitte 10 mil.

  146. dave November 24th, 2008 at 7:46 pm

    Sheets is also thinking about accepting arbitration so he could even take a one yr contract of 15 million with a team option which would be better than his current arbitration package of only one yr and 15 mil. Sheets is under-valued and under-appreciated in a bad economy which could mean great value if the yanks just opeded their eyes and didnt focus merely on the so called prizes of the free agent class who really could be the disasters of the class ie burnett and lowe.

  147. you gotta have faith (has accepted CC but says hell to the no to AJ!)(Mike Cameron? u've got to be joking.) November 24th, 2008 at 7:46 pm

    before moose came here he wanted nothing to do with the yankees, that turned out fine didnt it? ;)

  148. LathamJoe November 24th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

    Dave:
    Although Youkilis began his Pro career as a catcher, his natural position is third base. So there is no shifting of positions. Lowell’s salary may make it difficult to trade him, but if the Sox pay a portion of the salary, there is definite interest in a gold glove third basemen with decent power.

  149. Terry #1 November 24th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

    LathamJoe
    November 24th, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    Third, (and I have no definite confirmation of this issue) American baseball players do not enjoy the best treatment by Fans of Japanese Baseball.

    I do, and the treatment is not limited, and often not directed at “Americans”, although a commentary into who the Japanese see as Americans would take too long.

    The Japanese are notorious for their conduct and culture in baseball including (and especially) in the minor/international leagues. The major leaguers are also aware of it, particularly those that have worked their way through the system; many have looked into the possibility of going to Japan and NOBODY feels particularly comfortable with what they find out. The case of Ichiro in Seattle has only brought this to the fore (again).

  150. dave November 24th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    Can you guys stop comparing playoff games when season had pitched 253 and 241 innings in each of those regular seasons? His arm was probably about to fall off during those games. In 2001, he pitched only 180 inningis and did far better. I dont think that is a coincidence. Look at his era for the brewers down the stretch? That is how clutch CC could be and a good measure of pitching under pressue like in a playoff situation. Lowe has a better history in the playoffs so is he worth more or a better signing than CC? i would never sign a pitcher based on playoff history unless they have a huge sample size and the opponents offenseive stregnths were clearly noted.

  151. LathamJoe November 24th, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    If you examine AJ Burnett’s lifetime record against Teams from the AL East, you’ll get a sense of why the Yankees’ have greater interest in signing him over Ben Sheets.

  152. dave November 24th, 2008 at 7:58 pm

    Well I would hope the yanks would start going after Tex a little harder if the sox somehow traded lowell or began negotiations to trade him. The sox lineup would be far more difficult with Tex, Ortiz, Bay, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Drew and Youkillis in it. I would shift my attention to Tex over any second pitching option even before CC signs to keep Tex out of a boston uniform.

  153. Every Other Post for the Last 4 Months November 24th, 2008 at 8:00 pm

    I think we need to sign these FA’s this offseason. CC, Tex, [insert one of Lowe/Sheets/Burnett] and resign Andy. All of this could be done for around 70 million. CC-25 mil, Tex-20 mil, [insert one of Lowe/Sheets/Burnett] 15 mil, Pettitte 10 mil.

  154. Jerry from Queens November 24th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    Yankees are focusing on pitching because great pitching is the most important key to winning WS.
    Yankees are focusing on pitching because the Yankees does not have great pitching in the starting rotation.
    Yankees are focusing on pitching because the Yankees does not have power pitching to shut down the other teams.
    Yankees are focusing on pitching because they already have Jeter, ARod, Cano, Posada, Damon, Nady as the core in the lineup.

    Go and get CC and AJ as front of the rotation starters to go along with Wang and others. Yankees can go toe to toe with Bosox and Rays.

  155. ham_fighter November 24th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    boston’s not going after tex, they’re just bidding up the price. if they really do seem intersted, expect the yankees to act like they’re getting in it to make it cost the sox as much as possible.
    neither team is going to sign tex, hell shop around and take the best offer from the angels

  156. ray (sox fan) November 24th, 2008 at 8:13 pm

    ham_fighter
    November 24th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
    “boston’s not going after tex, they’re just bidding up the price.”

    I don’t agree, I think the Sox have a genuine interest in Tex.

    Remember there were lots of lots of people who said that the Sox had no real interest in Dice-K. They were just driving up the price and that when they won the bid they really weren’t going to sign him but keep him away from the Yankees for a year.

  157. Terry #1 November 24th, 2008 at 8:13 pm

    LathamJoe said:””First, the Japanese currently have a quota on teams signing foreign (especially American) players for their Baseball Leagues since it would further reduce participation by Japanese-born players.””

    There are always acrimonious debates among the Japanese about how many “gaijin suketto” the team should allocate for position players. The number is often 2.

    If a foreigner becomes too big of a “star”, they will be attacked vociferously or even run out of the league. It’s not that those foreigners necessarally “tried” to draw attention to themselves – the Japanese are culturally trained to ignore them as eyesores until they can no longer be ignored.

    “”Second, the money offered to foreign players by Japanese owners will not be as great as MLB teams will offer.””

    Also true, but the skill level necessary to play in the NPB is also lower, thus offsetting and (very often) increasing the rate of return as was the case of Rasner.

    Again, the prerequisite isn’t necessarily how well you can play (sorry Mr. Rasner), but how well you can play without overshadowing/embarressing the “wa” of the NPB. One of the most famous examples was Randy Bass, who was a threat to become the biggest star in the Japanese Baseball without being Japanese.

  158. dave November 24th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    Ok, AJ did really well against us, Boston and Tampa but how can you ignore the injury history? He only pitches more than 30 games in his walk years. He only does well in his walk years. He is a relatively mediocre pitcher for his career. He has little control over his pitches. The games he pitches are either ace material or complete self-destruction. Almost all of his injuries involve his pitching arm or his shoulder. He has a very stressful delivery. Managers have said numerous times that he is not a team player and plays for himself. He has no playoff history. He has never been voted for in the cy young or mvp. He has never been selected to an all star game. He is looking for a five year contract when he has been on the dl ten times in ten years for ten somewhat related injuries. He had TJ surgery. hE FINISHED fifth in the AL in walks last season, eighth in walks in 2005 and seventh in walks in 2002 (the only three years where he pitched complete seasons.) He finished fourth in the AL in wild pitches last season. Outside of last season, he has NEVER won more than 12 games. hE HAS A career era of about 4 in three seasons in the AL (mediocre.) Sheets has a better era plus than Burnett almost every single season they have both pitched. Sheets has pitched more innings than Burnett in 8 seasons than Burnett has pitched in 10 seasons while walking less men. Burnett had a whip of 1.342 last season – karstens had a whip of 1.344 last season for the pirates and finished 2-6. That is NOT a good whip! Burnett has never had an era under 3.75 in the AL – Sheets had an era under that 3 of the last 5 seasons. Sheets had a whip of 1.15 last season as well.

    AJ may do well against tampa and the sux but whos to say that Sheets couldnt or that AJ could even pitch for a full season in NY?

  159. James November 24th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    ny times article on tazawa from a few days back:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11.....038;st=cse

  160. dave November 24th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    see this website for more comparisons of sheets and burnett and tell me why the yanks would be foolish to go after sheets?

    http://riveraveblues.com/2008/.....nett-6041/

  161. ham_fighter November 24th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    of they moved someone i could see boston going after someone but now with lowell and youk on the team. and they’re not moving either one.
    the yanks are plugging posada and matsui in for abreu and giambi and concentrating on improved defense and SP. tex may end up somewhere other than anaheim but it wont be the fens or NYS

  162. ham_fighter November 24th, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    sorry … if they moved someone…

  163. duh November 24th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

    ” He only pitches more than 30 games in his walk years. He only does well in his walk years. ”

    same with Sheets.

  164. Al from BK November 24th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

    If CC doesn’t sign by the Winter meetings then its strictly about the money and we will get him.

  165. Al from BK November 24th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    Sheets would be a great low risk/high reward. If he gets hurt then its business as usual and we call someone up to pitch in his spot if he stays healthy then he puts up ace type numbers high K’s low BB’s and a low ERA.

  166. duh November 24th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    “hE HAS A career era of about 4 in three seasons in the AL (mediocre.) ”

    3.95, good for an ERA+ of 112.

    not at all “mediocre”.

  167. dave November 24th, 2008 at 8:28 pm

    hamfighter, where is your facts? Why couldnt they trade youk or lowell or big papi for that matter? Obviously they arent trading ortiz or youk but why not lowell? He did hit a decent 270 last yr with some power and i think he is only signed for the next season at 13 million or so. Why wouldnt a team take a decent offensive 3b with a fantastic glove for 13 million so that youk could move to third and tex could become an option? Obviously i dont want that but i could see it as a realistic possibility. I dont understand why the sox seem so unlikely. And where do posada and matsui come in? Tex signing with the yanks would really replace gardner. Swishser would move to right or center, nady to right or center and tex into first. Matsui is no guarantee to come back strong and posada is certainly not replicating his numbers of 2007. Abreu and Giambi were our two biggest offensive threats outside of arod – they cant be replaces by matsui and posada’s possible comeback. And damon is almost certainly in for a decline over last years production and god knows what swisher will actually give us. Our runs dropped by over 150 between 2007 and 2008 and that was with giambi and abreu batting and doing well. Why wouldnt the yanks want an offensive force in the lineup. And who exactly is batting third for nY with abreu gone? I could see arod moving to the third spot and tex batting fourth if he came to NY. Arod still has a good amount of speed and tex is a solid bat behind him.

  168. duh November 24th, 2008 at 8:29 pm

    Sheets is the better pitcher, but right now, Sheets is the bigger injury risk.

    It’s not a slam dunk either way.

  169. Beanietown November 24th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    Just read the original blog with regards to the Blosox signing amateur players from other countries.

    The same current ownership that took a ballplayer to court over a silly baseball, eliminated the discount for obstructed view seating at Fenway Park, stopped free TV broadcasts of the Red Sox on Friday nights and charges the highest ticket prices in baseball.

    Pathetic to say the least.

  170. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 24th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

    dave,

    the ENTER button is your friend. use it!

  171. Tom November 24th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

    Citi’s bailout with the FEDS lets them use tax payer money to pay the Mets 20 million per year.

  172. dave November 24th, 2008 at 8:42 pm

    Sheets has an era of 2.7, 3.33, 3.82, 3.82 and 3.09 – compare those to AJ which is close to 4 over the majority of his career and Sheets is far better in the era department. Adjust for the leagues and i still believe sheets would come out on top.

    dUH, When exactly do you think sheets was a free agent? Because the answer is never. He was drafted in 1999 and has been on the brewers ever since. Sheets best season was 2004 which was NOT A WALK YEAR. He put up stellar numbers in three straight seasons from 02 to 04 none of which were walk years actually but the first couple of full seasons in the league for him. Yes, he was marred by injury in 2005 to 2007 but he pitched through it to put up 106, 156 and 141 innings good for 24 22 and 17 starts. Last year, he was healthy all the way up until right before the playoffs when he had a muscle tear by his elbow. nO SURGERY REQUIRED but significantly reducing his value after an absolutely lights out year before the injury. Sheets has put up quality numbers almost his entire career making the all star team four times and starting this year. Guess how many times Burnett has started 25 or less games? 6 times in 10 years only pitching more than 30 twice. Sheets started more than 30 4 times in 8 years compared to Burnett’s 2 times in 10 years. Sheets does not only pitch well or a whole season when he is a free agent, Burnett’s best seasons were 05 and 08 – his two walk years. Lets see how miserable he will do when he knows he is set for the next five seasons – im guessing pavano like numbers.

  173. jennifer November 24th, 2008 at 8:47 pm

    And where is the public outcry. People were complaining about the bonds the Yankees got or that the city or state was paying for the roads. Well everyone uses them! Total bs that I am paying for some crappy company to have their name on a building. Why can’t they pull out and the Mets find a new company to pay for the naming rights!

  174. you gotta have faith (has accepted CC but says hell to the no to AJ!)(Mike Cameron? u've got to be joking.) November 24th, 2008 at 8:47 pm

    i would choose Sheets for 2-3 years over AJ for 5 years any day

    im sorry but we are already stuck giving CC 6 years there is NO WAY the yanks should give AJ 5 years, take that money and use it for the better!

  175. Vrsce November 24th, 2008 at 8:48 pm

    Tom

    The Mets/Citi deal will be cancelled, count on it.

    That will be 20mm less that the Mets will have to compete with the Yankees.

  176. Bill Porter November 24th, 2008 at 8:50 pm

    Let’s see, there’s a decade long Gentleman’s Agreement in effect and the Red Sawks have decided to ignore it. That sounds about right; after all it is a “Gentelman’s Agreement”. Why the surprise?

  177. jennifer November 24th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

    How iron clad is the contract?

  178. pat November 24th, 2008 at 8:52 pm

    “Citi’s bailout with the FEDS lets them use tax payer money to pay the Mets 20 million per year.”

    Seems that 20 million could be better utilized by Citi. GM dropped their Buick sponsorship with Tiger Woods today saying it was for cost cutting measures. Wonder what other corporate sponsorships will be next?

  179. Tom November 24th, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    Vrsce: Not unless the Government makes them.

    http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blot.....038;page=1

  180. viridiana November 24th, 2008 at 9:33 pm

    Not surprising at all that the Red Sox under the current management would pull such a weasly move.

    This is the history of this bunch. Remember how they flouted a similar gentlemen’s agreement to rip off Kevin Millar from Japan? Remember how they backed out on a deal they made with Colorado when they found one they liked better? Remember how they’ve been in on every free agent the Yankees want, often just to bid up the price? Or how they bought out all the rooms in downtown Managua so Jose Contreras could not meet with any other team? Isn’t it interesting that this band of slimeballs actually gained control of the Red Sox without even making the best bid? All orchestrated by Yankee-hater in Chief Butt Selig.

    This, my friends, is what we’ve been up against the last few years. Totally nasty and unscrupulous bunch.

  181. Terry #1 November 24th, 2008 at 9:37 pm

    “”Bill Porter
    November 24th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
    Let’s see, there’s a decade long Gentleman’s Agreement in effect and the Red Sawks have decided to ignore it. That sounds about right; after all it is a “Gentelman’s Agreement”. Why the surprise?””

    Bill, there never was a “Gentleman’s Agreement” in any real sense of the word because there never used to be any cause for friction.

    The Japanese didn’t want gaijin taking over their local sport and the Japanese players were afraid of coming to the US and losing face.

    MLB has, for the most, been gentle with NPB although it could rightly mop the floor with them. It’s the NPB that is using heavy-handed tactics, trying to restrict young players (who they think they already “own”).

    That puts MLB in an awkward position. Yes, money has alot to do with it, but MLB’s reputation has alot to do with it too.

    Don’t discount the fact that there’s just something… “repulsive” is a good euphamism – about the way the NPB behaves which rubs players and officials in the US and elsewhere the wrong way.

    No. Somehow, I can’t bring myself to feel sorry for the poor NPB.

  182. ZeusRules November 24th, 2008 at 9:40 pm

    Don’t MLB teams already do the same with players in latin america?

  183. pat November 24th, 2008 at 9:41 pm

    “Brian Cashman of the Yankees started things off with a non-announcement, by saying that the Yankees would honor the gentleman’s agreement between MLB and NPB by not pursuing Tazawa. Cashman said the Yanks might look to sign Yu Darvish, pitcher for the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters, instead.”

    http://www.examiner.com/x-739-.....ent-market

  184. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    Viridiana – I hate the Sox as much as you do, but “the history of this bunch?” I do not exactly understand your claims. IMO, if people want a rule to be followed, it should be written. This is a business and teams will take advantage of opportunities. I doubt Millar regrets his time w/ the Sox. I have not heard of the Contreras story. Any way, I doubt the Sox organization would believe that move would prevent him from meeting with teams. And yea, they up the prices of free agents for Yankees. It sucks, but that’s the business. It’s a common practice.

    Personally, I think the Sox have a great organization and run it well.

  185. GreenBeret7 November 24th, 2008 at 9:58 pm

    I think that Tazawa is taking a huge chance. If he fails to make a dent in major league baseball, the Japanese leagues may shut him out to discourage any more defections like this. They have no problem with the posting fees, but, this could signal mass attempts at true free agency for Japanese players. I could see US born players going over to Japan to get playing time and learning the finer points and then selling themselves on the free agent market to any team they chose. JD Drew used the independent leagues to accomplish this to skirt having to sign with Philadelphia.

  186. CC Fan November 24th, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    Anyone have any news on De Leon – where will he be playing next year?

  187. Tom November 24th, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    Yu Darvish isn’t being posted. That quote from Cashman is mlbtraderumors paraphrasing an article Peter wrote in the middle of September.

  188. Terry #1 November 24th, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    Just so everyone is clear on what is going on here:

    MLB is NOT been trying to “invade” or “encroach” on the NPB’s authority or territory.

    Exactly the OPPOSITE has been attempted.

    The NPB has taken it upon itself to DEMAND (in its own backhanded, cowardly way) that MLB obey Japanese edicts on how to operate in AMERICA. How? By refusing to allow certain people of specific racial origins and circumstances to play in the United States.

    THIS is the ONLY issue behind closed doors. Not the putrid drool over scouts and access which nobody denies is within Japan’s rights to regulate to their own overwhelming advantage (and they do).

    It’s kind of like trade issues:

    1) The Japanese huff and puff that America has no right to change their trade practices in Japan.

    Correct, but it’s a Straw-Man because nobody on the other side of the aisle makes this argument.

    2) The Japanese scream bloody murder that America has no right to change American trade practices in America.

    And they are DEAD WRONG.

    MLB is under no obligations to obey the NPB. I don’t care what the Japanese PR and media whores try to claim is the REAL issue at stake here.

  189. Tom November 24th, 2008 at 10:04 pm

    You want to talk about shady dealings read “The Kansas City A’s and the Wrong Half of the Yankees”.

  190. Jake November 24th, 2008 at 10:05 pm

    If Yanks miss out on Tex then how about Adam Dunn for DH/LF/1B?

    Tremendous power with 40+ HR’s and a BB machine.

  191. GreenBeret7 November 24th, 2008 at 10:14 pm

    Tom
    November 24th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
    You want to talk about shady dealings read “The Kansas City A’s and the Wrong Half of the Yankees”.

    ———————————————————–

    Kansas City A’s learned to sell off player for cash from the Boston Red Sox. Go back and look at the cash deals they made in the 1920s.

  192. Al from BK November 24th, 2008 at 10:16 pm

    Jake- Dunn is very productive but he would be eaten alive in NY because he isn’t athletic, doesn’t hit for average and K’s 200 times a year.

  193. viridiana November 24th, 2008 at 10:16 pm

    In some cultures, Josh, handshakes are honored. And the Red Sox, by all accounts, knew exactly what they were doing by renting out all the rooms in downtown Managua. They certainly weren’t doing it to invite the homeless in.

    Also, I do not agree that the Red Sox are simply following industry practice in bidding up free agents against the Yankees. Few teams do this. And for the most part, the Yankees very certainly have not. Indeed, they oftem make it clear they are NOT involved as they don’t want to be used to raise up bids. But that may change now, I’m guessing, in response to BOston’s well-established practices.

    All you have to do is listen to Larry the Lizard Lucchino talk — he is after all the one who popularized the Evil Empire epithet (without to my knowledge crediting the phrase’s originator). Listen to him and tell me he is not driven by hate and anger. If you approve of this Red Sox management’s hard-ass tactics, fine. But I find it awful hard to condone a persistent pattern of nastiness, spite and ruthlessness.

  194. Buddy Biancalana November 24th, 2008 at 10:17 pm

    Yeah, who was that guy Ruth the Sox sold?

  195. Tom November 24th, 2008 at 10:18 pm

    Very true GB. However, the Ralph Terry ordeal is comical

  196. Terry #1 November 24th, 2008 at 10:19 pm

    “”Tom
    November 24th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
    You want to talk about shady dealings read “The Kansas City A’s and the Wrong Half of the Yankees”.””

    It’s not about “shady”.

    If the Japanese want to keep their prospects to the point of imprisonment, they may do so: arrest Yu, the newly overrated, or keep his family hostage likethe daimyo’s of yore.

    I could care less. And the NPB would be nuts to go that far publicly anyway.

    But once a person makes it to the shores of the United States, the Japanese NPB should have zero authority to interfere or dictate the treatment of an individual with regards to MLB. If MLB even thought of conceding this point, yes, the media journalists would probably call this a “a great moment in sportsmanship”.{blech}

    I’d call it the Ichirofication of MLB [which is killing the Mariners clubhouse these days].

  197. dave November 24th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

    Dunn was pretty horrendous in the field last season and we dont need another dh taking up room and salary. I like his offensive numbers and he is as consistent as they come but Tex isnt even in the same league as dunn. We have no need for another dh either as we have about four or five of them in the coming years. I would pass on him and put all my efforts into tex and starting pitching.

  198. GreenBeret7 November 24th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    Tom
    November 24th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
    Very true GB. However, the Ralph Terry ordeal is comical

    ———————————————————–

    Terry was hardly the first player to make a return engagement to his original team. NYY sent players along that either had “the names” or minor league stats to entice the teams (Marv Throneberry)…they also sent a lot of cash in those deals.

  199. pat November 24th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    Kevin Long having worked with Robbie and Alex this off season sees better years from them in 2009.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11.....ref=sports

  200. ray (sox fan) November 24th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    viridiana,

    I would certainly not try to argue that the Sox have not tried to pull some fast ones sometimes.

    However, to maintain that the Yankees are pure and above that type of thing smacks of very biased homerism.

    A few years ago when Doug Mirabelli was with the Padres, the Sox made a trade to bring him back to Boston. It was too late, but as soon as the Yankees found out that Boston wanted him back they tried to arrange their own trade for Mirabelli only to keep him from Boston.

    I don’t remember the specifics but I heard a number of times that the owner of the Diamondbacks felt like Steinbrenner had backed out of some deal they had arranged, and so he preferred to send Schilling at the time to the Sox rather than the Yankees.

    Both Sox fans and Yankee fans need to be real here. Both teams have pulled fast ones….there are not pure and innocent ones.

  201. Tom November 24th, 2008 at 10:30 pm

    GB, I know. But it just seemed “dirty”. The A’s were owned by Arnold Johnson, who headed the company that owned Yankee stadium.

  202. dave November 24th, 2008 at 10:33 pm

    To Kevin Long – I will believe when i see it. Of course, he is going to say that about cano – he is supposed to be working with cano all winter. And arod has a better season every other season in the past. I could say that and it would be just as accurate a prediction.

  203. GreenBeret7 November 24th, 2008 at 10:33 pm

    ray (sox fan)
    November 24th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    Both Sox fans and Yankee fans need to be real here. Both teams have pulled fast ones….there are not pure and innocent ones.

    ———————————————————–

    I resent that remark. I’m immaculate….totally holy.

  204. Buddy Biancalana November 24th, 2008 at 10:33 pm

    pat-

    Looks like the Yanks may have a new #3 or #5 hitter. We’ll see.

  205. Jake November 24th, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    Viridiana – Handshakes are not good enough in MLB. Everything is done by contract. If the guy wants to pitch in this country, why not? Should Tazawa be stopped from doing what he wants simply because he lives in another country? And the same goes for us. If our prospects or top players want to go to Japan, then let them.

    Again, I do not recall reading about the Managua thing. I don’t see the point of it though – if someone wanted to contact Contreras, he would. Renting out rooms would be pointless and a waste of time.

    About free agent prices: I would rather have the Yankees try to discourage the Sox (or any other team for that matter) from signing a guy they want than just let them have him for a very low price. (Sorry if that didn’t make sense).

    And with that being said, I’m out for the night.

  206. ray (sox fan) November 24th, 2008 at 10:36 pm

    GB7

    Did you say you resemble that remark? lol

    Good evening GB!

  207. Bill Porter November 24th, 2008 at 10:36 pm

    Terry #1, I see the point but this behavior seems fairly typical of our friends to the north. Quite frankly I’m just biased enough not to be able to give them the benefit of the doubt on anything. Conversely if it was the Yankees behaving this way I’m sure I’d just pipe down, hold my tongue and justify that behavior through my internal monolgue. I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

    As to whether or not there was or remains a Gentleman’s Agreement this article pretty much sums up what appears to be a reasonable view. As to whether NPB is anxious for foreigners or non-Japanese or Gaijin to start signing their amateurs I’m sure they are no more anxious for that to happen than we are to see it happen here hence the existence of the Gentleman’s Agreement in the first place.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/20.....ITCHER.php

    Thanks for the thoughts.

  208. Josh November 24th, 2008 at 10:36 pm

    Oh crap, sorry guys – the post by “Jake” was me. I moved onto my friend’s computer and forgot to change the name.

  209. Tom November 24th, 2008 at 10:38 pm

    Didn’t David Wells have a “hand shake agreement” with the DBacks. Only to renege on it when the Yankees offered more money?

  210. GreenBeret7 November 24th, 2008 at 10:45 pm

    Tom
    November 24th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
    GB, I know. But it just seemed “dirty”. The A’s were owned by Arnold Johnson, who headed the company that owned Yankee stadium.

    ————————————————————

    Johnson was friends with both Dan Topping and Del Webb. Pat Carroll was an assistant GM in NY and got the job as KC GM. Take a look at the young talent that NYY sent to KC..Jerry Lumpe (2nd baseman) and Norm Sieburn (outfielder and 1st baseman), both became .300 hitters, Tom Sturdavent and Johnny Kucks who were both young and had won 16 and 18 games respectively just a year before. KC wanted Hank Bauer, not so much as a player, but to become their player manager. NYY also had the same deals with the Angels and Washington.

  211. GreenBeret7 November 24th, 2008 at 10:47 pm

    ray (sox fan)
    November 24th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
    GB7

    Did you say you resemble that remark? lol

    Good evening GB!

    ———————————————————-

    Evening, Ray. How’s the (sox fan) family?

    Yes, but I try to keep my innocence a secret.

  212. jennifer November 24th, 2008 at 10:53 pm

    I wonder how those 53,000 people who lost their jobs at Citigroup feel knowing that the Mets are still going to get their 400 million.

    Yet it really isn’t news, but if it was the Yankees people would be shouting from the roof tops.

    Struggling Citibank just sealed a multi-billion-dollar emergency “backstop” deal with the U.S. government. The financial behemoth, suffering with billions in bad mortgage-related assets on its books, recently shed 53,000 workers and saw its stock price lose over half its value. Yet it’s in a 20-year contract to pay the New York Mets $400 million to name the team’s new stadium “Citi Field.”

  213. pat November 24th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    Tyler expounds a little more on the Yankee’s potential 2009 offense.

    http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....h-offense/

  214. Clare November 24th, 2008 at 11:04 pm

    pat,

    Thanks for the links. Let’s hope Kevin is right.

    Interesting quotes on Cano. You would think that if he’s got any pride at all he’d be determined to bounce back this year after everything his teammates said about him last year. From what Kevin says it sounds like he will do so, assuming Kevin’s not blowing smoke.

  215. AROD fan November 24th, 2008 at 11:16 pm

    Jennifer-
    Yet another great post!

    I really miss baseball…

  216. AROD fan November 24th, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    Yankees fans and Mets fans should start conspiring against the Yankees and Mets ownership like they are conspiring against us.

  217. AROD fan November 24th, 2008 at 11:21 pm

    ‘I’d call it the Ichirofication of MLB’

    hilarious

  218. AROD fan November 24th, 2008 at 11:30 pm

    If Yanks miss out on Tex then how about Adam Dunn for DH/LF/1B?

    –why does NYY need yet ANOTHER DH/LF/1B? What would we do with him? Are we just hoarding all the DH/LF/1Bs in the league because they are all undervalued?

  219. Bill from NJ November 25th, 2008 at 12:02 am

    At this point, can someone tell me which FA had the highest RISP average last season?

  220. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 25th, 2008 at 12:04 am

    “Canó also made an important mechanical adjustment, scrapping the open stance he had lapsed into and reducing the movement before his swing. Long said he knew the swing would be in order when he visited Canó for six days during the week of Nov. 9, but he had no idea Canó would be in such good shape.

    “He’s got a personal trainer, and he’s probably down to 10 or 11 percent body fat,” Long said. “This kid is focused, he’s determined. I’ve never seen him like this. His arms are cut, his stomach is cut. He’s doing hitting, throwing, agility work — and these workouts at night, I watched them, and they’re grueling. I told him I was so proud of him.”

    Canó still needs better knowledge of the strike zone, Long said, and to work deeper counts. In that way he is a work in progress, much like the Yankees’ roster. The offense might be set, but the pitching is not, and Long is eager to see what happens. The better the pitching, he knows, the easier life will be for his hitters.”

    Well I got to call my friends/family in D.R. and see if they can take a pic of Robi to see if this is true. :)

  221. dave November 25th, 2008 at 12:22 am

    umm cano could be a bodybuilder by spring but that wont help him layoff bad pitches. he needs to walk more as much as he needs to hit more. I can never ever believe a pitching coach working with a player in the off season who claims he will have a breakout season. Why wouldnt he say that? There is no way for anyone to prove otherwise. And it makes it look like Kevin is doing work down there. If cano sucks, he can say oh i was wrong and if he is an all star, kevin can say that it is a product of all their hardwork in the grueling off season. Again, I will believe it when i see it.

  222. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 25th, 2008 at 12:26 am

    yup atleast we will get the chance to see it. Look Cano is what 25, 26 … immense talent and I still believe he wants to change he showed he didn’t quit last season in NY that is a tough thing to do and if Robi bounces back I can’t wait to laugh at everyone who doubted him.

  223. gianthinker November 25th, 2008 at 12:28 am

    Sign CC and Ben Sheets. I like Burnett but I dont want another Pavano and if you’re gonna take a chance on an injury risk you should find one with the highest upside of anyone. Sheets is an ace when healthy. Plus he’ll be able to be signed to a shorter deal which meets the Yanks plans. Add those two and the rotation is NASTY!!!!!!

  224. Al from BK November 25th, 2008 at 12:37 am

    “Sign CC and Ben Sheets. I like Burnett but I dont want another Pavano and if you’re gonna take a chance on an injury risk you should find one with the highest upside of anyone. Sheets is an ace when healthy. Plus he’ll be able to be signed to a shorter deal which meets the Yanks plans. Add those two and the rotation is NASTY!!!!!!”

    I agree Sheets upside is tremendous. I just wonder when CC signs I’ll say once he runs out of Turkey leftovers:)

  225. dave November 25th, 2008 at 1:13 am

    Two things i dont understand:

    The article pat posted in the times claims that cano is doing well in the off season. Then, goes on to put him third in our lineup next season. Umm, hold the phone! Cano was pretty awful last season and he may bounce back but third is usually reserved for someone who can hit, walk and has power. Sometimes, the hitter in that spot can run but usually it is the best offensive player on the team and if not the best, in the top two or three with the best batting behind him. A couple of 3 hitters last year are David Wright, Nick Markakis, Albert Pujols, Chase Utley, Manny Ramirez, Derrek Lee, Ryan Braun. Cano is not fast. He topped out at 19 homers and his obp in his best season was 365. Even if he kills it in the spring, cano should not be batting third. He is not in that class of hitters … atleast not yet.

    Why are the yanks making an offer to odalis perez? Is this the resident horrible pitcher who the yanks think they can rebuild in the minors? Like Eric Milton and Victor Zabrano before him. Beause this guy was horrible in the NL east and hes injury prone to boot. I wouldnt even want him for fear of bad karma. He hasnt had a whip below 1.4 in 5 seasons mostly in the NL. Just pass on this train wreck please. Its a huge waste of cash we could be spending on CC or Tex

  226. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 1:14 am

    dave
    November 25th, 2008 at 12:22 am
    umm cano could be a bodybuilder by spring but that wont help him layoff bad pitches. he needs to walk more as much as he needs to hit more. I can never ever believe a pitching coach working with a player in the off season who claims he will have a breakout season. Why wouldnt he say that? There is no way for anyone to prove otherwise. And it makes it look like Kevin is doing work down there. If cano sucks, he can say oh i was wrong and if he is an all star, kevin can say that it is a product of all their hardwork in the grueling off season. Again, I will believe it when i see it.

    ———————————————————–

    OK…so, according to you, nothing that Cano does means anything, because it’s not enough? Why don’t you just wait for the results? Or, even better, go play with your Barbie dolls.

  227. Buddy Biancalana November 25th, 2008 at 1:21 am

    GB7-

    Hilarious comment about Barbie Dolls.

  228. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 1:24 am

    Buddy Biancalana
    November 25th, 2008 at 1:21 am
    GB7-

    Hilarious comment about Barbie Dolls.

    ———————————————————–

    If they were the Barbi twins, I’d consider it myself.

  229. Buddy Biancalana November 25th, 2008 at 1:27 am

    The Barbi twins are gross, maybe 20 years ago they were lookers. Lol

  230. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 1:35 am

    Buddy Biancalana
    November 25th, 2008 at 1:27 am
    The Barbi twins are gross, maybe 20 years ago they were lookers. Lol

    ————————————————————

    I’m 60 years old. They’re still kids to me.

  231. dave November 25th, 2008 at 1:53 am

    GB What are you talking about? I just said that I can believe everything kevin long says because he has no reason to be honest. I will see the results and judge for myself. We shouldnt trust Long and believe we dont need anymore offense or that cano will be fine just becuz he says so. I need proof. And there is no way cano is batting third out of spring training no matter what Long says

  232. dave November 25th, 2008 at 1:54 am

    where exactly does the barbie doll comment come in. i DONT quite get it.

  233. Nick in SF in Ocean City, MD November 25th, 2008 at 1:58 am

    The Red Sox are utterly shameless, but what else is new?

    In this case there may be a madness to their method. I think the Sox are trying steal Tom “Mr. Baseball” Selleck back from Japan. They will reap a whirlwind of wasabi-strength pain.

  234. Larry November 25th, 2008 at 5:59 am

    Hi Pete,
    I would have to say that your observation of this delenma is right on, but aren’t you supposed to be on vacation?
    Dont worry about the Japanese baseball league, not one high school player goes to bed at night thinking, “Oh Boy! I hope i can play baseball in Japan”. Now as far as players from other countries, they also want to play here and american baseball will always have the best players in the world, Japan would never offer a pitcher $140,000,000.00 dollars to throw a baseball or hit one for that matter, as my family from the ol’ country always say’s, “Only in America”…LOL!

  235. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 7:03 am

    The link below are the Fall and Winter League numbers on Yankee players as of last night’s games.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/org.jsp?id=nyy

  236. LathamJoe November 25th, 2008 at 7:11 am

    Personally I believe Cano’s “hitting problems” can be corrected between his ears. Why tinker with a batting stance that hit .346 in 2007 and has a lifetime .303 BA?

    Cano has one of the sweetest swings in baseball, his problem is pitch selection. With more patience at the Plate his confidence and OBP will improve and so will his hitting.

  237. Yankee U November 25th, 2008 at 7:14 am

    Doesn’t Cano have a career batting average of .303 and average 18 HRs for per season? I can’t wait for his “breakout season”.

  238. RonH November 25th, 2008 at 7:42 am

    Let’s hope the Angels don’t get BOTH CC & Tex!

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/11.....140657.htm

  239. Cuz November 25th, 2008 at 7:58 am

    I think it time Cash looks at his backup plan. I say we dont get CC,AJ,or Lowe. What is plan B

  240. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 7:59 am

    LathamJoe
    November 25th, 2008 at 7:11 am
    Personally I believe Cano’s “hitting problems” can be corrected between his ears. Why tinker with a batting stance that hit .346 in 2007 and has a lifetime .303 BA?

    ————————————————————

    Cano’s slump is directly tied to his batting stance. If you compare his stance from last year (2007) to 2008, there is a huge difference. His front foot had drifted more than a foot behind him. He couldn’t see the ball on the outside clearly, even though he could hit them. He just couldn’t hit it solidly enough. Young players, and, seemingly young Latin players, send to allow hitting problems affect their fielding and vice versa. He’s not as lazy as some people like to pretend…but’ he does have problems with allowing things to distract him. He isn’t the only player that’s had that issue.

    Back in 1960, Mantle was benched by Casey Stengel for not hustling…in fact he just stopped running all together. Mantle hit a slow DP grounder to second base and when Maris slid in, not realizing that Mantle stopped about half way. Maris ended up with two cracked ribs. As usual, Mantle was booed and Stengel pulled him from the game and benched him the next day. The next day, Mantle issued a public apology to the manager, players and fans. That was the last time Mantle was ever booed by Yankee fans.

  241. Fredo Corleone November 25th, 2008 at 8:14 am

    “The link below are the Fall and Winter League numbers on Yankee players as of last night’s games.”

    I thought Jesus Montero was set to play in one of the winter leagues. Didn’t see his name amongst the those in the link you posted. Did the Yankees change their mind? Or was my impression of their winter plans for Montero way off?

  242. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 8:26 am

    Fredo Corleone
    November 25th, 2008 at 8:14 am
    “The link below are the Fall and Winter League numbers on Yankee players as of last night’s games.”

    I thought Jesus Montero was set to play in one of the winter leagues. Didn’t see his name amongst the those in the link you posted. Did the Yankees change their mind? Or was my impression of their winter plans for Montero way off?

    ———————————————————–

    I believe that Montero will be playing shortly. He’s still only 18 years old, and has never played in this many games. I’m certain that NYY doesn’t want him catching in 140-150 games this soon. He’ll be playing in the Venezuelan League shortly.

  243. Fredo Corleone November 25th, 2008 at 8:34 am

    Thanks GB:

    I did notice the organization was careful with him during the year, splitting the catching and DH time close to down the middle (70 games caught, 60 DH’d). This was also to get Romine adequate time at catcher as well.

    Good to see he’ll be playing this winter. An early happy b-day to young Jesus as he turns 19 on Saturday.

  244. Fredo Corleone November 25th, 2008 at 8:43 am

    “Cano has one of the sweetest swings in baseball, his problem is pitch selection. With more patience at the Plate his confidence and OBP will improve and so will his hitting.”

    Honestly don’t see him improving his pitch selection much. Just isn’t what he is. Kid’s been a pro ball player for most of 8 years now and he’d never shown the inclination to be a guy who will see 4+ pitches per plate appearance.

    I don’t think he scratches .340 again in his career, but he’s not a .270 hitter either. One thing he had demonstrated in the past, that we almost never saw in ’08 was an ability to get good wood on bad pitches (read: not strikes). While I’m not 100% sold that he is “fixed”, I can buy into the idea that a more closed stance enables him to be a more effective hitter on pitches on the outer half and even more importantly to him, pitches a half foot off the plate. That can be the difference between pulling a weak grounder to second base and serving a soft liner to left/left center.

  245. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 8:48 am

    Fredo Corleone
    November 25th, 2008 at 8:34 am
    Thanks GB:

    I did notice the organization was careful with him during the year, splitting the catching and DH time close to down the middle (70 games caught, 60 DH’d). This was also to get Romine adequate time at catcher as well.

    Good to see he’ll be playing this winter. An early happy b-day to young Jesus as he turns 19 on Saturday.

    ———————————————————-

    No problem. I’d guess they only want him catching about 20 or so games. Next spring should be intersting when Pena works with both Montero and Romine on their catching skills….in particular their footwork and release. I had hoped they could both work over this winter in one of the leagues, however, I think that Romine might end up as a corner outfielder. Romine is an extremely athletic player nand has good foot speed. They also both have great arms. Right now, defensively, Montero is the better catcher.

  246. bru November 25th, 2008 at 8:51 am

    Cuz
    November 25th, 2008 at 7:58 am
    I think it time Cash looks at his backup plan. I say we dont get CC,AJ,or Lowe. What is plan B

    ————————————————————

    sign tex 7/155 or 8/160. trade nady/swisher,kennedy,bullpen arm for a cf.swisher or nady in rf.sign pettitte,sheets,perez

  247. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 8:58 am

    bru
    November 25th, 2008 at 8:51 am
    Cuz
    November 25th, 2008 at 7:58 am
    I think it time Cash looks at his backup plan. I say we dont get CC,AJ,or Lowe. What is plan B
    ——————————————————————————————
    sign tex 7/155 or 8/160. trade nady/swisher,kennedy,bullpen arm for a cf.swisher or nady in rf.sign pettitte,sheets,perez

    ———————————————————-

    And what good center fielder is available that’s worth a good outfielder, a young starter and a relief pitcher?

  248. ray (sox fan) November 25th, 2008 at 9:09 am

    I am hearing reports that the Angels are backing away from Tex because they are not willing to give a ten year contract to him.

    The rumor is that they may be willing to come close to the Yankees offer for CC.

  249. pcjr November 25th, 2008 at 9:11 am

    Hey everyone, new guy around here. Regarding the cano talk I read. I think the batting stance is really going to help. If he could show some.better focus as well, I see no reason why he won’t regain the form he had prior to last year or better.

  250. jennifer November 25th, 2008 at 9:16 am

    Buy the NY Daily News and turn to page 51. It is so worth it. Trust me! :cry: :)

  251. bru November 25th, 2008 at 9:19 am

    GreenBeret7

    we can always use melky,gardner & wait for ajax or if we get a good enough cf in return we can trade ajax,nady,kennedy.

    it depends on do we wan’t a cf now or do we wait for ajax.

    if we can get kemp or another good young cf for nady/swisher,kennedy,ajax would you do it???

    the pitching market does not look good considering cc might not wan’t to play in ny.

    if he does great.

    i just think tex is the safest bet.signing him opens doors and at least allows us to trade for a cf.

    i do not think going into a new stadium flush with money that we will go with melky & gardner.no obp there at all.

  252. William Buckner November 25th, 2008 at 9:22 am

    I was listening to MLB Radio this morning and they were reporting that the Angels were pulling out of Tex deal and getting in on CC.

  253. bru November 25th, 2008 at 9:23 am

    you would have to be nuts to give anybody a 10 yr contract.

    teams should start pulling out with tex & cc,they will come back down to earth.

    same with burnett & his 5 year contract.

  254. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 9:24 am

    ray (sox fan)
    November 25th, 2008 at 9:09 am
    I am hearing reports that the Angels are backing away from Tex because they are not willing to give a ten year contract to him.

    The rumor is that they may be willing to come close to the Yankees offer for CC.

    ————————————————————

    Morning, Ray. How’s the family and the spy business going?

    Now that the pleasantries are over, you can just stop spying on us Yankee fans. Your team isn’t going to cheat and swindle us out of Teixiera, Sabathia and Burnett. We have a God-given right to the best players available. It’s in the Book Of Revelations, and Nostradomus predicted it almost 500 years ago.

  255. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 9:25 am

    Cano’s poor pitch selection aside, he was pretty unlucky this year. His BABIP ended up at .282, which isn’t awful, but that was because of a great streak in the second half.

    He had a .252 BABIP in the first half and that’s awful. His low BA

  256. bru November 25th, 2008 at 9:27 am

    it is crazy.everyone is twisting & turning with every rumor.

    it is all a game.usually the most money wins.

  257. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 9:28 am

    bru
    November 25th, 2008 at 9:19 am
    GreenBeret7

    if we can get kemp or another good young cf for nady/swisher,kennedy,ajax would you do it???

    ———————————————————-

    You’ve been drinking again, haven’t you?

  258. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 9:28 am

    Cano’s poor pitch selection aside, he was pretty unlucky this year. His BABIP ended up at .282, which isn’t awful, but that was because of a great streak in the second half.

    He had a .252 BABIP in the first half and that’s awful. His low BA was from a slow start and some bad luck. He hit only .270 despite having a line drive percentage almost two points over the league average. The hits just weren’t falling for him.

    On the flip side, his fly ball and pop up percentages raised this year, perhaps suggesting he was getting too far under the ball; however, he was still a few points below league average in each of those categories so that’s not cause for too much alarm.

    Robinson Cano will be fine next year at the plate. I’d just like that OBP to raise. A lot bit.

  259. Fredo Corleone November 25th, 2008 at 9:29 am

    “teams should start pulling out with tex & cc,they will come back down to earth.”

    That’s hovering on the edge of collusion, Bru. The owners are a resounding 0-1 against the MLBPA when collusion has been a legal isssue and it cost them millions. They aren’t going there again.

  260. Blakeo November 25th, 2008 at 9:29 am

    The last thing Scott BorASS needs is a way to make money. The BoSuxs should be slapped and fined for this. Agreements are agreements and are agreements.

  261. Rich November 25th, 2008 at 9:30 am

    “I’m 60 years old. They’re still kids to me.”
    creepy old man…

  262. bru November 25th, 2008 at 9:30 am

    GreenBeret7

    i never stopped

  263. Tom November 25th, 2008 at 9:32 am

    There aren’t any good young CF’s available. Thats why you here Mike Cameron’s name linked to the Yankees.

    Do you think the Dodgers would trade Kemp for Kennedy, Nady, and Veras? Would the Reds trade Bruce? No. Pittsburg doesn’t deal McLouth for that package either.

    The Jays aren’t trading Wells.
    Thw Mets aren’t trading Beltran
    Detroit isn’t trading Granderson
    The Indians aren’t trading Sizemore
    Hamilton, Victorino, and Upton are not going to be traded.

    Aaron Rowand’s contract is too much. Rick Ankiel is a Boras guy. Plus why would the Cards trade him.

    This is not a video game or a rotisserie league.

  264. ray (sox fan) November 25th, 2008 at 9:32 am

    Good morning GB7!

    Good to see you are your typical feisty self this morning. Obviously I could be wrong but I still think you guys end up with CC.

  265. Patrick November 25th, 2008 at 9:32 am

    Theres a big difference between starting the season with Melky/Gardner versus trading for Matt Kemp. Kemp would be near unobtainable; there are other trade opportunities out there without breaking the bank on a stud like Kemp.

    Tex is still a possibility I think. I could see Cashman trading Nady, moving Swisher to RF and signing Tex. I think that becomes a likely scenario if CC doesn’t sign with the Yanks.

    If CC turns down the Yanks (doubtful) I think Burnett and Tex are locks to sign.

  266. ray (sox fan) November 25th, 2008 at 9:36 am

    bru
    November 25th, 2008 at 9:23 am
    “you would have to be nuts to give anybody a 10 yr contract.”

    Isn’t that what the Yankees gave Arod?

  267. ham_fighter November 25th, 2008 at 9:37 am

    bru, you’re thinking too hard, you’re gonna hurt youself!

    still laughing about the wright to 3B arod to 1B from yesterday.

  268. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 9:40 am

    ray (sox fan)
    November 25th, 2008 at 9:32 am
    Good morning GB7!

    Good to see you are your typical feisty self this morning. Obviously I could be wrong but I still think you guys end up with CC.

    ————————————————————

    Hey, Ray. Not sure which one they get, but, I’m sure NYY will get either Teixiera or Sabathia. as long as NYY can get two near top of the line pitchers and Teixiera, they may be the best way for them to go. NYY needs one big bat and two starters besides Pettitte.

  269. bru November 25th, 2008 at 9:43 am

    gb,you critisize everyones scenarios but i don’t see any imagination from you???

    why is it so hard to believe that the yankees can’t get kemp with nady/swisher,kennedy,ajax,veras and or another ml pitcher????

    it might not be kemp but another cf is possible.

    i don’t know if it would be smart to trade ajax or wait but i would like us to get better at cf now.

    a one or 2 year stopgap in cf until ajax is ready????,i don’t know but i wouldn’t mind signing tex,pettitte,cc,trading for a cf.

    tex,pettitte,cc will cost 56-60 million a year,payroll will be lower even with arbitration raises.

    the problem with signing cc & pettitte is who will our #3 & #4 starter be?

    the rotation does not line up properly.joba should be our #5 for know & pettitte probably should be our #4.

  270. Neil November 25th, 2008 at 9:45 am

    Pfffft . . . . what difference does it make what a silly franchise like Boston does with Tazawa ?
    Just one of 30 franchises in MLB. The St. Louis Cardinals have more to be prouder of.

  271. Patrick November 25th, 2008 at 9:47 am

    I hate to break it to you all but the Yankees cannot afford Teixeira and Sabathia. Even after those signings NY would need 2 more starting pitchers, a starting CF and 2 or 3 bench players.

  272. mel November 25th, 2008 at 9:48 am

    *why is it so hard to believe that the yankees can’t get kemp with nady/swisher,kennedy,ajax,veras and or another ml pitcher????

    Bru,

    It’s not hard to believe. It’s just unlikely. If Kemp is so good, and if he’s made available (how likely is that?), then other teams will be able to top that.

    Maybe if you throw in Cano, Torre can convert him to SS.

    Just kidding! I support Cano 100%! Boo to the haters.

  273. bru November 25th, 2008 at 9:49 am

    ham_fighter
    November 25th, 2008 at 9:37 am
    bru, you’re thinking too hard, you’re gonna hurt youself!

    still laughing about the wright to 3B arod to 1B from yesterday
    ————————————————————

    ouch…

    i was hoping that would be forgotten,lol.

    i didn’t mean wright literally,i meant that if there was a decent third baseman available why not at least consider moving arod to fb instead of paying 20 million a year on tex?

    i was using wright as an example & many people couldn’t read between the lines.

    where is arod going to end up anyways in the future?

  274. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 9:50 am

    “i don’t know if it would be smart to trade ajax or wait but i would like us to get better at cf now.”

    It would not be smart. At all. Unless Albert Pujols or Cole Hamels is involved.

  275. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 9:50 am

    And, Ray…I’m not feisty…people my age are considered characters, crusty or eccentric. Feist means that a person is a nice guy until riled. I can’t allow you to cast such aspersions on my “character”. I challenge you to a duel.

  276. ham_fighter November 25th, 2008 at 9:50 am

    calm down, its not even thanksgiving yet. at this time last year, arod was a free agent.

    ‘rumors out of california’ thats a good one. you’d think boras would just let ppl use his name when he’s trying to lure an east coast team into the bidding for tex.

  277. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 9:51 am

    “where is arod going to end up anyways in the future?”

    If the Yankees sign Tex, he’ll be at 3B for the rest of his career. If they don’t, I think he’ll have to move to 1B when Swisher’s contract is up, unless the Yankees have a real good 1B prospect by that time (I know, what about Juan Miranada? I want him to hit lefties a little better first).

  278. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 9:53 am

    bru
    November 25th, 2008 at 9:43 am
    gb,you critisize everyones scenarios but i don’t see any imagination from you???

    ———————————————————–

    There’s a difference in baseball between inmagination and fantasy.

  279. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 9:53 am

    ***imagination, too***

  280. ANSKY November 25th, 2008 at 9:53 am

    Lots of talk of Cano working out but his problem is still going to be pitch selection. Everybody’s probably right.

    My thoughts, for what little they may be worth, are this:

    One of his problems has been that he seems lackadaisical. Sounds like his approach to the coming season is pretty focused now. Sounds like he’s physically getting stronger, which can only help too. His mind and body all tuned in, he should be in better control overall. And when someone throws 2 of the first 3 pitches just outside of the zone he may come to realize that he can wait & react to a pitch (hopefully a better pitch) later in the count.

    As long as he doesn’t start to swing like Mark McGwire or Barry Bonds then Cano will hit for a higher average. Ichiro hit more HR with lower average after his 262 hit season … seemed to be against his normal style of hitting.

  281. Tom November 25th, 2008 at 9:53 am

    DH.

  282. Patrick November 25th, 2008 at 9:54 am

    “where is arod going to end up anyways in the future?”

    Its likely he will remain at third for the remainder of his career. The skills required for 3B don’t really regress as players get older. 3B isn’t a very physically demanding position. It requires good reflexes and a strong throwing arm. Alex will probably be a slightly below average 3B for the rest of his career. I could see him getting better but I doubt he’ll get much worse.

  283. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 25th, 2008 at 9:54 am

    So a certain someone might be in NY tonight. We will see will he pass up the oppurtunity to be on NY media back page and cause a shockwave to the core of baseball. I dare him to rock a crooked Yankee fitted. :)

  284. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 9:54 am

    I love how everyone gets on his or her high horse about Scott Boras trying to get his players the most money, and in turn get himself the most money.

    You mean to tell me you guys wouldn’t do the same thing Scott Boras does? Of course you would. If you didn’t at least try, you wouldn’t be an agent for very long.

  285. mel November 25th, 2008 at 9:57 am

    I know that Alex is a great athlete, but so was Barry Bonds. Alex will spend significant time as a DH on the tail end of his contract.

    Did Cashman poopoo the CC + big bat theory yesterday? Are we hearing rumblings out of Disneyland about CC? Hmmmm….

  286. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 9:58 am

    Ya know, all this talk about Cano’s pitch selection (from myself included), is a little overhyped. He may not walk a lot, but he doesn’t strikeout a lot and he makes a lot of contact.

    His miss percentage fell from 13.5% to 11.2% from 07 to 08, his contact percentage went up from 86.5 to 88.8, and both his looking (2.2-2.0) and swinging (10.5-8.3) strikeout totals went down.

  287. bru November 25th, 2008 at 9:59 am

    mel there are always scenarios where other teams top the yankees.

    all i am trying to do is think of a way to upgrade cf without having a 200 million dollar payroll even though it is not my money.it is embarrasing to have a 209 mill dollar payroll & still need many pieces.

    i like the idea of tex for 7 or 8 yrs tops.i would not do 10 under any circumstances & would turn the page on him.cc over 6 years the same.

    the yankees should go hard after tex right now,he makes us better than cc does i believe.

    does anybody really wan’t or think gardner or melky will be our cf on opening day?

    they might be good players but until they prove themselves they should be 4th of.

    an obp of 300 or under in the al east will not cut it.

  288. ham_fighter November 25th, 2008 at 10:00 am

    in the future…
    2011: THE NEW YORK YANKEES TODAY BECAME THE FIRST TEAM IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL HISTORY TO FIELD A TEAM ENTIRELY MADE UP OF FIRST BASEMEN!
    as the opening day crowd looked on, derrick jeter, alex rodriguez, jorge posada, johnny damon, hideki matsui, jesus montero, shelley duncan, nick swisher and their newest FA aquisition jason giambi all ran out to first base to play defense! afterward manager don mattingly said he had conferred with his bench coach tino martinez and they decided to give everybody a chance to play the position they were best suited for and it turned out that for all of them, it was first base. even with the crowd giambi did manage to commit 2 errors in the 5-1 loss to the royals.

  289. pat November 25th, 2008 at 10:00 am

    “where is arod going to end up anyways in the future?”

    Right where he is now until he becomes the DH in 5 or 6 years.

  290. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:03 am

    “does anybody really wan’t or think gardner or melky will be our cf on opening day?

    they might be good players but until they prove themselves they should be 4th of.

    an obp of 300 or under in the al east will not cut it.”

    Yes, I do think that they will be and I wouldn’t really mind it, unless the asking price for Cameron comes down. Cameron as a one year stop-gap wouldn’t be awful. Good defense, decent bat. It’d be alright.

    The sub .300 OBP is no good, but you also have to take into account Gardner’s sample size. He has the potential to be a .360-.380 OBP guy as time goes along. I wouldn’t mind him in the OF for 300 ABs so we can see what he does. This year, I think he’ll OBP anywhere from .340-.360 if all goes well.

  291. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 25th, 2008 at 10:03 am

    “Did Cashman poopoo the CC + big bat theory yesterday? Are we hearing rumblings out of Disneyland about CC? Hmmmm….”

    Cash basically told people listen to what I say not what a source tells you. Rumblings out of Disney is Teixera will be thier focus, the Angels can’t afford to lose offense.

    GB thanks for the Winter league links the one thing I’m focusing on this yr. is who is improving and who’s eye at the plate is improving over the batting avg. It looks like Edwar Gonzalez, Reegie Corona, Cisco, Carson and Kevin Russo.

  292. miggs November 25th, 2008 at 10:03 am

    The guys over at River Ave. Blues have an excellent writeup on Sheets vs. Burnett. I was very surprised at what I read. Go take a look at it when you get a chance.

    Turns out Burnett has a much longer injury history and IMO is a bigger risk.

    Sheets can be had for a short commitment and makes a ton of sense at a time when Burnett has so many teams chasing him.

    Signing Sheets NOW gives the Yankees so much leverage with Burnett, CC, Pettitte, Lowe, or any other pitcher they go after.

    3 years/ 45 million? I’d do that in a heartbeat.

  293. Fredo Corleone November 25th, 2008 at 10:04 am

    “Ya know, all this talk about Cano’s pitch selection (from myself included), is a little overhyped. He may not walk a lot, but he doesn’t strikeout a lot and he makes a lot of contact.”

    Lot less GOOD contact in ’08 than seasons past. The hardest pitches to get good contact on are ones outside the strike zone and Cano swings at a lot of those.

  294. mel November 25th, 2008 at 10:04 am

    bru,

    In spite of Gardner’s very poor obp (at the moment), I would love to have him in CF. He’s going to be a great defender and force of nature on the basepaths. He’s young, athletic, and energetic. Right now we got none of that.

    Infuse some young, hungry guys and watch things happen. Enough of these dinosaurs who don’t want to get their unis dirty. You’ll even see Cano getting into it. Right now, he thinks he’s a dynasty guy.

    I wouldn’t fret too much about Gardner. He’ll figure it out. And we’ll save the $10M and prospects that Cameron will cost.

  295. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:05 am

    If Shelly Duncan is still in the Yankees organization in 2011, I’ll be pissed.

  296. bru November 25th, 2008 at 10:06 am

    ray (sox fan)
    November 25th, 2008 at 9:36 am
    bru
    November 25th, 2008 at 9:23 am
    “you would have to be nuts to give anybody a 10 yr contract.”

    Isn’t that what the Yankees gave Arod?

    ————————————————————

    i hated that signing.

    he was at the yankees mercy.

    8 years/25 million a year would of been perfect,frontloaded.

  297. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:07 am

    “Lot less GOOD contact in ‘08 than seasons past. The hardest pitches to get good contact on are ones outside the strike zone and Cano swings at a lot of those.”

    Well, his line drive percentage went up from 18.7 to 20.3 so he was making decent contact.

    /shrug

    “I wouldn’t fret too much about Gardner. He’ll figure it out. And we’ll save the $10M and prospects that Cameron will cost.”

    If we could unload Nady onto the Brewers for Cameron, I’d be happy–just so long as IPK, AJAX, or anyone else top flight was requested as well. A major leaguer and a B level prospect should be enough for MC.

  298. Blakeo November 25th, 2008 at 10:07 am

    There is always Andruw Jones. He is still fat, unhappy, and the Dodgers are unloading him. The Atlanta Braves don’t want him. Get him slimmed down from his 280 to 220 and he will fly like the wind, hit .230 with 40 HRs and 120 RBIs.
    IF you can get him on Slimfast and yesterday.
    He is worth a chance.

  299. bru November 25th, 2008 at 10:08 am

    miggs
    November 25th, 2008 at 10:03 am
    The guys over at River Ave. Blues have an excellent writeup on Sheets vs. Burnett. I was very surprised at what I read. Go take a look at it when you get a chance.

    Turns out Burnett has a much longer injury history and IMO is a bigger risk.

    Sheets can be had for a short commitment and makes a ton of sense at a time when Burnett has so many teams chasing him.

    Signing Sheets NOW gives the Yankees so much leverage with Burnett, CC, Pettitte, Lowe, or any other pitcher they go after.

    3 years/ 45 million? I’d do that in a heartbeat.

    ————————————————————

    i agree.

  300. Joe from Long Island November 25th, 2008 at 10:09 am

    Brandon – I agree with your last post. It makes way more sense for the Angels to sign Tex rather than CC. They are going to spend only so much money, especially in this economy, and their need for hitting is so much greater than their need for pitching.

    Part of the reason why CC is taking longer to decide than initially thought is that the response from the west coast teams has been less than expected. He may just be waiting to see if the WC teams ever formalize an offer, or just concede him to the Yankees (“Sure, we’d love to have you, but right now, you know, we can only do $80-90M over 4-5 years…What do you think?”)

  301. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 25th, 2008 at 10:10 am

    “There is always Andruw Jones”

    Tubbo ?

  302. mel November 25th, 2008 at 10:11 am

    Squints,

    Meant to qualify that. Bru was worried about an inflated payroll. $10M won’t really hurt, especially if we’re paying someone $25M to pitch and $27M (32M?) to field 3B.

    Cameron’s too old for my taste and his BA isn’t the best, but he’d be my second choice.

  303. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 25th, 2008 at 10:13 am

    This gonna be funny so what are the Angels going to do go 6 yrs. 140 ?, Cashman then whips it out 6 yrs. 160. Would Moreno even try it ?

  304. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:13 am

    “Cameron’s too old for my taste and his BA isn’t the best, but he’d be my second choice.”

    First being Brett and Melky?

    His BA ain’t great but his OBP is decent .340 career (90 points higher than his career BA of .250 so I’ll take that). A .448 SLG out of CF with his defense is also good, too. I wouldn’t mind having Gardner in CF to start the year but if the price is right on Cameron, go for it.

  305. ham_fighter November 25th, 2008 at 10:13 am

    i think our offense/defense is done. so is the BP. whoever ends up in cf will be the #9 hitter. its just a question of who ends up in the rotation now.

  306. bru November 25th, 2008 at 10:14 am

    all these teams saw how the phillies,rays did & see how signing these huge long term contracts rarely work,factor the economy in and i don’t see any team beating the yankees for cc.

    he will have to leave a ton of money on the table.if he does that i personally don’t wan’t him in ny.

  307. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:17 am

    MC’s also got three straight 20+ home run seasons and is a decent RBI guy.

    Check this stat out.

    Last year, Cameron had 70 RBI in 508 PAs. The average MLBer w/508 PAs gets 58 RBI. Here’s the more impressive part: the average Major Leaguer with 508 PAs has 320 runners on base throughout the season. Cameron had only 273! So he did more than the average player with less to work with! (That info is via the Gamelogs on Mike’s baseball-reference.com)

  308. Viva November 25th, 2008 at 10:17 am

    2 things interest me at this point:

    1) what is CC’s first choice for team he wants to play with (regardless of $$)

    2) What is Tex’s first choice

    Thing is.. there are plenty of people with tons of money that are miserable.. when you are talking a matter of a few million to these guys, they are going to choose whatever makes them happiest .. and quite frankly, they are going to be rich (if not already) no matter where they decide.

    I am all about “the heart” a players who’s heart who has always wanted to be in pinstripes to me, is more valuable then I guy just coming for the $$. I am not saying that I know anyones “heart” or not, just saying what I prefer.

  309. GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2008 at 10:17 am

    Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
    November 25th, 2008 at 10:03 am

    GB thanks for the Winter league links the one thing I’m focusing on this yr. is who is improving and who’s eye at the plate is improving over the batting avg. It looks like Edwar Gonzalez, Reegie Corona, Cisco, Carson and Kevin Russo.

    ———————————————————

    My pleasure, Brandon. I noticed that Christian is hitting for a little power and stealing bases, too. I am a little surprised that NYY doesn’t have some of the young middle infielders, beyond Russo, Sublett, Pena and Corona. It’s good to see Edwar Gonzales hitting well. Maybe by next year some time, he can earn a promotion to NYY. He’s got a solid bat with power. His issue is lack of walks, and, I haven’t seen enough defense to make a judgement on him.

  310. pat November 25th, 2008 at 10:18 am

    Melky’s off to a good start in winter ball. .346 BA/.393 OBP. He even stole a base. Wonder if he’s working out with Robbie getting lean and mean this off season.

  311. bru November 25th, 2008 at 10:19 am

    Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
    November 25th, 2008 at 10:13 am
    This gonna be funny so what are the Angels going to do go 6 yrs. 140 ?, Cashman then whips it out 6 yrs. 160. Would Moreno even try it ?

    ————————————————————

    if the yankees do 6/160 they would be insane.it would hurt them a lot going forward.

  312. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 25th, 2008 at 10:20 am

    It’s only 31 AB but a .382 OBP % and a .866 OPS is nothing to scoff at.

  313. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:23 am

    “It’s only 31 AB but a .382 OBP % and a .866 OPS is nothing to scoff at.”

    It’s nothing to scoff at but it’s definitely nothing to put too much faith in because of how few ABs.

  314. mel November 25th, 2008 at 10:23 am

    Squints,

    I just like what Gardner brings to the table. I realize that Cameron has power, but I love the idea of not having Johnny Damon as our best baserunner in the lineup. Gardner will get caught once in a while, but he will drive pitchers nuts.

    Oh yeah, Melky. If he continues to hit like he’s hitting in winterball, it’s definitely a conundrum. Melky’s never been a favorite of mine, I think a lot of his baserunning gaffes and hitting woes result from his trying too hard. He’s really in a tough spot, but he got to roam CF in YS for 2 years. Not too many guys can say that.

  315. mel November 25th, 2008 at 10:26 am

    Viva,

    I agree. CC wants to play in Cali and Tex wants to play in the East. Yet, people are trying to move heaven and earth to make the opposite happen. We’ll see if resistance is futile.

  316. CB November 25th, 2008 at 10:26 am

    “He may not walk a lot, but he doesn’t strikeout a lot and he makes a lot of contact. ”

    Ozzie Guillen made a lot of contact hardly struck out during his career.

    Was that a good thing? Not really. Guillen was amongst the least patient hitters to play the game over the past 30 years.

    In order to strike out you have to see at least 3 pitches in an at bat.

    Given that 3 pitch strike outs are relatively rare – lets say you have to see at least 4 pitches to strike out.

    If you keep swinging at the first or second pitch and make poor contact your not going to strike out much.

    Cano made awful contact on the ball last year. He just wasn’t driving the ball – his slugging % was .410. How hard do you think those line drives were hit.

    Also talking about Cano’s BABIP can be very misleading. Cano hits a lot of ground balls and is not fast.

    Given that it’s not all that out of left field for his BABIP to fall like that during one season.

    Sure it will likely be much higher this season. But if he doesn’t get back to making better contact then his BA/OBP will be at the whim of where ground balls wind up going.

  317. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:27 am

    “I just like what Gardner brings to the table. I realize that Cameron has power, but I love the idea of not having Johnny Damon as our best baserunner in the lineup. Gardner will get caught once in a while, but he will drive pitchers nuts.

    Oh yeah, Melky. If he continues to hit like he’s hitting in winterball, it’s definitely a conundrum. Melky’s never been a favorite of mine, I think a lot of his baserunning gaffes and hitting woes result from his trying too hard. He’s really in a tough spot, but he got to roam CF in YS for 2 years. Not too many guys can say that.”

    I like Gardner a lot, too, but I love Cameron’s power. I’ll take 20-25 homers over 30-40 SB every day of the week and twice on Sundays. If the Brewers hadn’t picked up his option, I think Cameron would be a Yankee right now. However, the price will have to be just right for Cameron. If Cashman can pull off some miracle like he did in the Swisher deal, then yes. If they’re asking for anyone important (that includes IPK), then no.

  318. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 25th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    “if the yankees do 6/160 they would be insane.it would hurt them a lot going forward.”

    CC’s averaged 222.0 IP in an 8 yr. span. The guy’s career low was 180 IP. Last season the Yankees had Moose w/ 200 IP and Pettitte w/ 204 IP. CC the last 3 yrs. has averaged 249 IP w/ no drop off in his stuff, he can take a blank check for all I care.

  319. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:33 am

    “Ozzie Guillen made a lot of contact hardly struck out during his career.

    Was that a good thing? Not really. Guillen was amongst the least patient hitters to play the game over the past 30 years.

    In order to strike out you have to see at least 3 pitches in an at bat.

    Given that 3 pitch strike outs are relatively rare – lets say you have to see at least 4 pitches to strike out.

    If you keep swinging at the first or second pitch and make poor contact your not going to strike out much.

    Cano made awful contact on the ball last year. He just wasn’t driving the ball – his slugging % was .410. How hard do you think those line drives were hit.

    Also talking about Cano’s BABIP can be very misleading. Cano hits a lot of ground balls and is not fast.

    Given that it’s not all that out of left field for his BABIP to fall like that during one season.

    Sure it will likely be much higher this season. But if he doesn’t get back to making better contact then his BA/OBP will be at the whim of where ground balls wind up going.”

    Cano’s also got some pop, though. His SLG was in the tank in the first half, as was everything else, but he was hitting the ball a lot harder in the second half (.482 SLG from the ASB onwards). I’m not saying I’d like him to keep swinging, dude needs to learn what a walk is.

    His problem this year was a combo of bad luck, popping the ball up a bit more than normal, and generally just not walking–is there any way to fix this? I mean, what more can they do?

    Ugh…3.35 pitches per plate appearance. Awful. My god I didn’t realize it was that bad. Ew.

    You’d think hanging around Bobby Abreu the last two years would’ve taught him something about plate discipline….

  320. Blakeo November 25th, 2008 at 10:33 am

    Seriously, why not take a chance on Andruw Jones? Right now, AJ is in the position of “listening and doing what he is told to do” instead of AJ doing what he wants to do. Now you can’t bat him 9th, but you can put his 6th with no problem and he will be fine. The Yankees may be the only team that Andruw Jones can play for right now. He is a Boras client but Jones’ history with Boras has been shakey and Jones dictated his last contract with the Braves…not BorASS.

    Why not Andruw Jones?

  321. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:37 am

    Also, Robbie’s GB% dropped almost five full points this year. That could also be an indicator of why his BA was so low. What I mean is that it’s a lot easier for a ground ball to sneak through a hole than it is for a fly ball to drop.

    From these numbers, it appears that Cano was getting under the ball a little too much:

    25.8 FB% (up from 24.3 last season), 5.8 pop up% (up from 4.5 last year).

    He also wasn’t driving balls in the air as well…only 5.0% on HR/balls in air, down from 7.5% last year, league average is 6.5%, btw.

  322. Y's Guy November 25th, 2008 at 10:41 am

    jones makes $18.1M next year.

    nuff said.

  323. Fredo Corleone November 25th, 2008 at 10:42 am

    “CC’s averaged 222.0 IP in an 8 yr. span.”

    207 actually

    “The guy’s career low was 180 IP.”

    True, but he’s been under 200 in 5 of his 8 seasons.

    “CC the last 3 yrs. has averaged 249 IP w/ no drop off in his stuff,”

    He’s actually averaged 229 the past three seasons and has paid for it in the playoffs where his last 4 starts have resulted in 19 innings pitched, 20 earned runs and 44 baserunners. Scouts also indicated his arm slot was dropping late this year with the Brew Crew.

    You give a blank check if you’re getting Pedro Martinez of 1997-2002. Sabathia is the best available, but he’s nowhere near that class of pitcher. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

  324. CB November 25th, 2008 at 10:43 am

    “Well, his line drive percentage went up from 18.7 to 20.3 so he was making decent contact.

    /shrug”

    “Shrugging” off an argument that inherently involves qualitative data by citing quantitative data is often a cheap rhetorical ploy.

    By the way – Cano’s line drive rate did not increase from 18.7 to 20.3. It went from 16.9% to 19.4%.

    But to discuss his LD% in isolation as evidence of quality contact is to also completely miss the quantitative point.

    Look at Cano’s other peripheral contact measures. His flyball rate increased from 30% to 33%. For a player who is not a true home run hitter that kind of result is awful – it’s just more easy to catch fly balls.

    Even worse his rate of popping up sky rocketed in 2008. His percent of fly balls that were infield pop ups jumped from 4.8% to 7.8%.

    In turn his ground ball rate decreased from 52% to 47%.

    If you know what the run weighting for flyballs, groundballs and pop ups are you ‘d know none of this is a good thing.

    Do you seriously think this total picture suggests he was making good contact but just getting “unlucky.”

    That’s conclusion is a complete misinterpretation of this data and ignores all of the qualitative evidence at hand as well.

  325. ham fighters November 25th, 2008 at 10:46 am

    cb that post hurt my head. i wish it was more easy to read.

  326. Jeremy November 25th, 2008 at 10:46 am

    Why not take a chance on Andruw Jones? Because he was horrible in 2007 and probably the worst player in baseball in 2008. He is also under contract for $15 million and has a no-trade clause.

    This is an insane suggestion. The chance of the Yankees even considering a Jones acquisition is zero.

  327. Trevor November 25th, 2008 at 10:47 am

    “CC wants to play in Cali and Tex wants to play in the East. Yet, people are trying to move heaven and earth to make the opposite happen”

    Perhaps because pitching is more of a need…

    If the Yankees aren’t getting Sabathia like I said you would have to go young. Burnett not worth the contract and Lowe is likely headed to Boston. The org really has to focus on developing pitchers. The Red Sox and Angels (who the Yankees can barely if ever beat will be tough if they add Sabathia) will have far better pitching. That’s what wins. They Yankees until some of these youngsters are prime and ready, will be playing catch up for the foreseeable future.

  328. CB November 25th, 2008 at 10:50 am

    “You give a blank check if you’re getting Pedro Martinez of 1997-2002″

    That’s tough standard to set isn’t it? That was arguably the greatest runs a pitcher ever had over a 5-6 year period. Kind of an outlier.

    Also – before that run Pedro had only had one dominating season – 1997. 1996 he was very good but not great.

    The Sox basically signed him to that huge extension immediately after they traded for him as he was going into his walk year.

    Giving Pedro that contract was very risky at the time. Many people thought it was going to be a bad move – Pedro’s frame was too small, he wouldn’t be able to maintain his stuff, etc.

  329. Blakeo November 25th, 2008 at 10:54 am

    Andruw Jones is an great option for the Yankess; Actually…..you can get the Dodgers to eat most of that contract just to get rid of him….ah, did I cause that micro-brain of yours to work? And you bring in Andruw Jones with the knowledge that Jones has to make the team in Spring Training….ah, you may have a headache by now, you blind idiot….or maybe you just want to have Joe Foy back in CF for the Yankess….is that it? Look, the Yankees will spend yet another season in 2009 NOT making the playoffs and WATCHING the playoffs on TV. The ONLY way the Yankees make the playoffs is through AROD hitting .425 with 75 HRs and 200 RBIs and that ain’t gonna happen. The Yankess are starting pitching POOR, defensively POOR EVERYWHERE except 3B (ARod, again) and even your catcher is old, feeble, and looking for a way out. Make all the decisions you want for Brain Cashmen (“Brain”…get it?) but the Yankees are on the way down to the lower division. Tampa Bay owns the division now with your hated RedSuxs next in line and the BlowJays to follow. Sorry. Truth hurts.

  330. mel November 25th, 2008 at 10:55 am

    Trevor,

    I know pitching’s a priority, but this “all in” approach to pitching may help in year 1, but hamstring us later.

    I don’t want to pay any pitcher $150M, and definitely $160M. That’s the riskiest position in all of baseball. Good health in the past is no guarantee of such in the future.

    Plenty of pitching in the pipeline if people are patient.

    My point is that CC isn’t the only pitcher out there. If he’s truly not resistant to the idea of pitching out east, great. But if his heart’s set on going home, let him go.

  331. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:55 am

    “By the way – Cano’s line drive rate did not increase from 18.7 to 20.3. It went from 16.9% to 19.4%.”

    Where’d you get the LD numbers? I got mine from statcorner.com and I think you got yours from fangraphs?

    “But to discuss his LD% in isolation as evidence of quality contact is to also completely miss the quantitative point.

    Look at Cano’s other peripheral contact measures. His flyball rate increased from 30% to 33%. For a player who is not a true home run hitter that kind of result is awful – it’s just more easy to catch fly balls.

    Even worse his rate of popping up sky rocketed in 2008. His percent of fly balls that were infield pop ups jumped from 4.8% to 7.8%.

    In turn his ground ball rate decreased from 52% to 47%.

    If you know what the run weighting for flyballs, groundballs and pop ups are you ‘d know none of this is a good thing.

    Do you seriously think this total picture suggests he was making good contact but just getting “unlucky.”

    That’s conclusion is a complete misinterpretation of this data and ignores all of the qualitative evidence at hand as well.”

    Yeah, his fly ball numbers weren’t good, I mentioned that in my next post. It would appear something could’ve been wrong with his swing (getting too far under the ball? dropping his back shoulder? getting fooled by the breaking pitch?) , so I guess the stance change and extra work with long could help.

  332. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 10:57 am

    Hmm, there’s obviously a discrepancy in how statcorner.com and fangraphs.com define different hit types. Fan Graphs also has Cano having seen three less pitches than Stat Corner did. Interesting.

  333. CB November 25th, 2008 at 11:02 am

    “Yeah, his fly ball numbers weren’t good, I mentioned that in my next post. It would appear something could’ve been wrong with his swing (getting too far under the ball? dropping his back shoulder? getting fooled by the breaking pitch?) , so I guess the stance change and extra work with long could help.”

    But doesn’t this conclusion completely rebut your entire original argument about Cano you were making and how he was actually making “good” contact but just getting “unlucky” by citing his BABIP?

    Wasn’t this the conclusion that you were “shrugging” off by citing his LD%?

    Numbers aren’t everything.

    BTW – don’t know where statcorner gets its data from but the Hardball Times and Fangraphs gets theirs from Baseball Info Solutions and I think they are generally considered the best in the business when it comes to qualitative categorization of ball put in play.

  334. CB November 25th, 2008 at 11:04 am

    One last thing on this subject – BABIP is an index of random chance for pitchers.

    It is not nearly as straightforward for hitters. There is a real skill in BABIP. It’s not simply “luck.”

    This has become one of the bigger misunderstanding of baseball statistics on the internet.

    And even for pitcher’s it’s not purely “luck.” Take a look at how the BABIP for the rays pitching staff last year compares to 2007.

  335. Trevor November 25th, 2008 at 11:10 am

    Mel, that’s the approach that I always wanted: develop your own instead of spending millions on a FA. The problem with that is fans are extremely impatient (see Hughes) they would give these young pitchers a hard time.
    But if there’s no CC then you will definitely see Hughes and others get opportunities.
    As far as other pitchers being out there, none of them are at Sabathia’s level. Not Burnett not Lowe not Sheets. Two of three can’t stay healthy and Lowe at this stage of his career in not an ace.
    Like I said in my last post no CC, the Yankees will be playing catch up.

  336. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 11:15 am

    “But doesn’t this conclusion completely rebut your entire original argument about Cano you were making and how he was actually making “good” contact but just getting “unlucky” by citing his BABIP?

    Wasn’t this the conclusion that you were “shrugging” off by citing his LD%?

    Numbers aren’t everything.”

    That wasn’t meant to be a snobbish shurg; if it came off that way, my bad.

    Looking deeper into the numbers, Cano wasn’t just unlucky. You’re right. I should’ve looked deeper when that stuff was right in front of me.

    “BTW – don’t know where statcorner gets its data from but the Hardball Times and Fangraphs gets theirs from Baseball Info Solutions and I think they are generally considered the best in the business when it comes to qualitative categorization of ball put in play.”

    Yeah, I don’t know either. Does Fan Graphs have anything on run values of batted balls? I know that StatCorner does in its explanation of tRA.

    They’ve got the following:
    K: -0.105
    BB: 0.329
    HBP: 0.345
    LD: 0.384
    GB: 0.053
    OFB: 0.046
    IFB: -0.096
    HR: 1.394

  337. Squints November 25th, 2008 at 11:23 am

    And now I’m getting these run values from here: http://www.insidethebook.com/woba.shtml

    in an explanation of wOBA:

    HR 1.70, 3B 1.37, 2B 1.08, 1B 0.77, NIBB 0.62.

  338. CB November 25th, 2008 at 11:25 am

    “Does Fan Graphs have anything on run values of batted balls? I know that StatCorner does in its explanation of tRA. ”

    Different models use different weightings. So it depends.

    This is one of the reasons why different models e.g. PECOTA vs. Marcel produce different findings.

    A real major article on this subject was Dave Studeman’s piece “What a Batted Ball is Worth” from teh 2006 Hardball Times Annual.

  339. YankeeRay November 25th, 2008 at 11:40 am

    Interesting that Angels are potentially off Tex and on CC. They know they have the coastal advantage but will be hard pressed to pay CC with Lackey coming up next year.
    They need Tex but so do the Yanks. We need an everyday 1b that we can lean on like we did Mattingly,Tino and Giambi. Only we will now have a much better defender than we’ve had in the last 7 years which will make our infield defense a whole lot better.
    Tex is a pretty good runner and has a good eye which will fit right in the middle of our line up.
    I am not as high on CC now as I was before. I like the Sheets idea and could live with Oliver Perez if it means we can get Tex. I also believe that Hughes needs to be in our rotation as the #5.
    1- Sheets
    2- Wang
    3- Joba
    4- Perez
    5- Hughes/Pettite

    With 88 mill coming off our books we just added back 20 on Tex, 15 on Sheets, 10 on Perez. We also added payroll with Swisher and Marte. So there is room for more additions. I could live with Petite and keep Hughes down so now we are at 57 mill if we pay Andy 12mill.
    I still see room for Manny as our DH. Trade Matsui and eat some of his contract if need be.
    Our line up would look like this:

    1- Damon CF – let melky or gardener be def replacement
    2- Jeter SS – not cf, enough with that talk already
    3- Tex 1B – lock down for 8 yrs 165mill
    4- Manny DH – bronx boy/ Sox killer, anything better?
    5- Alex 3B – all time HR hitter in waiting
    6- Swisher – RF – could platoon with Nady
    7- Nady LF – could play Damon there and Melk/Cabr in CF
    8- Posada C – this is a must with Molina spelling
    9- Cano – best 9 hitter in baseball

    Bench 4- Ransom, Molina, Cabrera, Gardener. Do we need a PH ?
    Pen 7 – Mo, Marte, Veras, Coke, Bruney, Ramirez, (Geise,Robertson,Sanchez ??)
    Starters – 5
    Line up -9

    Would the money work? I think it could.

  340. Jeremy November 25th, 2008 at 12:06 pm

    “Andruw Jones is an great option for the Yankess; Actually…..you can get the Dodgers to eat most of that contract just to get rid of him….”

    The Dodgers will not do that unless we trade them someone. Why would we trade away a prospect, any prospect, and pay some portion of Jones’s salary to get a terrible player?

    Also, he has a no-trade clause. Unless he is willing to waive it for nothing, we would to give up even more for him.

    “And you bring in Andruw Jones with the knowledge that Jones has to make the team in Spring Training”

    Why would he have to make the team? He could get cut, take his millions, and go live on an island. He is guaranteed that money.

    You throw around insults, but advocate the Yankees going after one of the worst, most overpriced players in baseball to FIX our problems on offense. This is absurd. The Yankees cannot become a better team if they acquire terrible players.

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  342. Mrflazm November 25th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

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  343. stevebob November 25th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

    hahahahahahahahaha, you have got to be kidding me, a yankees fan talking about integrity, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    *breaths deeply*

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  344. Blakeo November 25th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

    NY Yankees Fans + integrity = 0

    The Yankees are dead. Long Live Tampa Bay RAYS!

  345. M November 25th, 2008 at 6:26 pm

    I’ll admit I’m a sox fan, but let me try to say something regardless (decide for yourself whether it’s biased)

    The Yankees have a relationship with a Japanese pro team (the Giants). I’d be careful to call this a moral decision (or even a courtesy decision). I think it’s a smart move, but it is, inevitably, just a business decision. The Yankees are better served by protecting their long-term talent pipeline than they are by going after a single, untested pitcher.

    Japan just keeps getting more important as a source for major league talent, it’ll be interesting how this plays out, and whether the Japanese leagues can maintain their popularity. Plenty of American teams already have a big Japanese following, including the Sox and Yankees. (the Red Sox had a huge dunkin donuts advertisement in Fenway)

  346. Jon November 26th, 2008 at 1:19 am

    It’s really funny to read these comments. Some of the comments sense but many were so out there, I had to laugh.

    1. Sox (or any other MLB team) would not have signed a player from Japan if it meant breaking the “unwritten” agreement. Why would they? They’ve had success with player from Japan under the current rule. Current system worked. Also, team in Japan did not draft him! They knew his intention was to sign with MLB team. Please don’t use this BS with Soriano being a “foreign player. Remember many of you said, “unwritten” rule is a rule. Or is it not when the Yankees do it.

    2. CC is just waiting for another offer. At the rate of pay we are talking about, why wouldn’t anyone want to play closer to home? I don’t think 1-2 M a year going make a break this deal. We are talking about 20M+ no matter where he lands. Good for him for waiting to see other offers. There’s nothing wrong with signing with the Yankees either, but it would be stupid to accept the first and only real offer.

    3. On Tex. Many of you made comment about Yankees getting in to drive up the prices. Ridiculous comment from a outsider. Why in hell an owner (unless they are complete morons) drive up a price of a player? So that when they need sign some one similar, they can pay “driven up” price since the precedent was set? That would be like digging your own grave. These owners talk and know what the the price range of a player are. If you are talking about driving up a price, 1M or 2M is not going to make a difference to Sox or the Yankees on a 20M/year player. So stop with the non sense.

    4. Both team have shed significant amount of cash (75+ for Yankees and 40+ for Sox) this year. They will be able to sign and afford these players. CC and Burnett (who cares, just remeber Pavano, scary and similar) will be a Yankee, Tex and Lowe will be a RedSox. Or an you can have Manny. If you sign resign Enrique Wilson, Manny will be very happy.

  347. Jon November 26th, 2008 at 1:31 am

    Is it me or Yankee fans want former Sox player out of their prime? You already have and had Damon, Clemens, Embree, Myers. How did that work out? Now you want Lowe and Manny? Why not sign Garciaparra too (remember he was going to be your 2nd basemen?). Good luck, highest salary doesnt’ always equal championships.

  348. feefooo November 26th, 2008 at 1:46 am

    look at this loser g@ysox fan now thinking he knows what it takes to win championships. WHAT A JOKE YOU ARE!

  349. Cover November 26th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

    Pretty lame even for the Red Sox.

  350. redsoxfan101 November 28th, 2008 at 2:08 am

    YEA RED SOX!!! YOU ALL SUCK SO BAD RED SOX ARE THE BEST

  351. george November 29th, 2008 at 9:07 am

    what do you expect the red sux have never had any CLASS never will, they are a grubby team with no respect for the game. The Yankees play hard but fair always have , the SUX would sell the mother to try and beat the yankees. I hope the league will punish the Sux ,if they break the gentlemens agreement,but don’ be surprised if they do, it takes two gentlemen to make an agreement ,the sux aren’t gentlemen .

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