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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


LeBron talks about CC, the Yanks

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Nov 26, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Noted Yankees fan and savior of the NBA LeBron James was in New York on Tuesday and talked to the media masses before destroying the Knicks. Sam Borden of The Journal News was on hand and filed this report:

On the idea of his friend CC Sabathia signing with the Yankees, LeBron said they had not discussed it yet. “It will be good for him, it would be good for the team,” he said. “The Yankees definitely need pitching, especially with Mike Mussina retiring. They need to bulk up their pitching rotation. … I know my stuff about the Yankees – they need some pitching, because they have all the offense in the world, and that can help.”

James was also asked why he thinks fans like Jeter more than A-Rod. Interestingly, he didn’t even mention A-Rod at all in his answer, praising only Jeter instead.

“I’m a big fan of Derek Jeter and I like the way he approaches the game every night. It’s not about numbers all the time, sometimes it’s about what you do off the field in his case. He’s been the leader of that team ever since he put on the pinstripes. You could always count on him to be there on and off the field, through rough times, through good times. He’s kind of been that backbone for the last 10 years I guess.” James said.

LeBron sounds like he knows his stuff. Jeter needs to make a call to make sure he helps recruit Sabathia.

————

Ken Rosenthal of Fox reported that Andy Pettitte had talked with Joe Torre about playing for the Dodgers. This could well be the Hendricks brothers reminding the Yankees that Andy is still waiting for his contract.

Once a player gets in the open market, all bets are off. But Pettitte owes the Yankees one for all the support they threw his way last spring after he admitted his PED use.

Meanwhile, there are reports circulating the Angels are prepared to offer Sabathia a deal. Somebody has to at least try, right? This also could be the Angels way of trying to get Mark Teixeira to the table.

Remember, almost every action in the hot stove season is related to some other move. A good way for a player to make a deal is to talk to another team. A good way for a team to make a deal is to talk to another player. If you recall last season, all it took for Jorge Posada to get his from the Yankees was having lunch with Omar Minaya.

If nothing happens today, it could be quiet for a bit. Baseball people are sane enough to talk the holiday off and Friday could be quiet as a result. It only takes a phone call to make a deal but none of these things are on a deadline.

 
 

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367 Responses to “LeBron talks about CC, the Yanks”

  1. SJ44 November 26th, 2008 at 8:38 am

    LeBron has been a Jeter fan his entire life. He once said in an interview in HS that he wants to grow up and be a leader like Jeter. Its the one athlete he admits to having a man crush on.

    Its not a slight to Arod as much as its a dedication to the way Jeter carries himself as a player and person. That’s the guy LeBron decided to role model himself after as far back as high school.

    As far as the panic some Yankee fans have over Pettitte talking to the Dodgers or CC awaiting an offer from the Angels, Pete spells it out correctly.

    If anybody really follows the Dodgers, do you see Frank McCourt paying 12-16 million dollars a year for Andy Pettitte? Its not happening.

    Andy doesn’t have a 12-16 million dollar market coming off the season he had. If he can get it from the Dodgers, it will be a first.

    This is a team that didn’t even pay Manny a cent this year. That’s the only reason they traded for him. The Red Sox picked up the entire tab.

    Its a smoke screen.

    The Angels? Simple. If they sign CC, the Yankees probably sign Tex and Burnett. More accurately, they are probably trying to move Boras off the dime because they really want Tex back.

    Its just a big game of chicken at this point. No sense getting into a panic until you see signings. At that end of the day, where players sign is all that matters.

    The rest of the stuff is just noise.

  2. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 8:58 am

    “If anybody really follows the Dodgers, do you see Frank McCourt paying 12-16 million dollars a year for Andy Pettitte? Its not happening. ”

    This is the point that everyone forgets. Look at the Dodgers rotation and ask yourself, “Can they afford and do they need a fifth starter for $16 million in 2009?” The Dodgers probably do need another starter with Lowe and Penny leaving but at $16 million? No way.

    This is obviously just a ploy by Pettitte to try and get as much money from the Yankees as possible. My guess is he’ll end up getting 12 mil for one year.

    I’m thinking the Dodgers will go after Jon Garland. They definitely need another starter and he is a California guy. He’d be good in the NL West and the Dodgers definitely need a guy to eat innings.

  3. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 9:04 am

    “If anybody really follows the Dodgers, do you see Frank McCourt paying 12-16 million dollars a year for Andy Pettitte? Its not happening.”

    Beyond the $12-$16 million, I also don’t see the Dodgers as dumb enough to give up their 1st rounder for a year of Andy Pettitte.

  4. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 9:08 am

    “If anybody really follows the Dodgers, do you see Frank McCourt paying 12-16 million dollars a year for Andy Pettitte? Its not happening.”

    did anyone see him shelling out the cash for Andruw Jones?

    things could change, but they have a bunch of money coming off the books with Nomar, Kent, Penny, and Furcal all gone, and Billingsley is now going into camp coming off a broken leg that required surgery.

    and dont underestimate the potential of St. Joe whispering sweet nothings into McCourt’s ear.

  5. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 9:11 am

    Turn Two makes a fair point. Dodgers don’t seem to have issues with big contracts that are of the short term variety. And they do have a lot of scratchola coming off the books this year and next.

  6. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 9:16 am

    “Dodgers don’t seem to have issues with big contracts that are of the short term variety. And they do have a lot of scratchola coming off the books this year and next.”

    thats not to say i think he’ll definitiely sign in LA, or doesnt really just prefer playing in NY or retiring.

    i’m just pointing out the potential is certainly there, and shouldnt just be dismissed outright as a smoke screen.

  7. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 9:20 am

    Agreed Turn Two. It can’t be dismissed. I still don’t believe the Dodgers would give up a mid 1st round pick to have a year of Pettitte though.

  8. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 9:21 am

    as a serious question, who is in the Dodger rotation right now anyway?

    Hiroki Kuroda? Jason Schmidt, Chad Billingsley, Clayton Kershaw?

    and you’re telling me the Dodgers dont have sincere interest in Pettitte on a one year deal?

  9. SJ44 November 26th, 2008 at 9:24 am

    “St. Joe” whispered to McCourt about getting Santana last year. He was told that the GM makes those decisions.

    He has no input on player acquisitions in LA.

    They have a lot of money coming off the books and an owner who put himself in doubt buying the team.

    He has no desire to jack up the payroll and get hit with luxury tax charges.

  10. ANSKY November 26th, 2008 at 9:24 am

    Sabathia talking to the Angels could be a way for Sabathia to actually squeeze just a little more money from the yanks than was offered.

    Swisher was an upgrade at 1B. Tiexiera would be a bigger upgrade. Not holding my breath waiting for that to happen, but I believe a slim chance still exists if the pitching pursuits turn out flat.

    If CC signs here, then IMO going after injury risks Sheets & Burnett (both of them) would be less beneficial than going after Tiexiera.

    If CC signs here, then IMO go after one or the other pitcher (but not Burnett for 5) along with another more reliable pitcher.

    If CC doesn’t sign here, then IMO Swisher becomes trade bait and they should go after Tiexiera.

    If CC doesn’t sign here, then IMO do NOT go after both Sheets and Burnett. Trade Swisher and somebody for a pitcher, go after Tiexiera (before trading Swisher away of course) and go after Sheets & Lowe.

    That’s assuming Burnett wants to get 5 years … elsewhere.

  11. Fran November 26th, 2008 at 9:25 am

    Last season when Mariano and Jorge were negotiating for contracts, they too talked about maybe going to LA to play for Joe Torre.
    I don’t believe that Andy would go anyplace other than NY or Houston. But if he does go to LA, I don’t think that loosing the Andy Pettitte who pitched the second half of last season would be a big loss.

  12. SJ44 November 26th, 2008 at 9:25 am

    “debt”, not doubt.

  13. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 9:28 am

    “He has no desire to jack up the payroll and get hit with luxury tax charges.”

    so then who is pitching for the Dodgers next year?

    go ahead and tell me 5-6-7 pitchers who are their options, and I’ll believe the Dodgers wouldnt be interested in Andy Pettitte on a year year deal.

    and if McCourt is really that worried about his finances, then why was he prepared to go 2 years/%45+ million for Manny, reportedly? wouldnt he just not consider Manny at all if he was so cooked in his books?

  14. jd jr November 26th, 2008 at 9:33 am

    “”and if McCourt is really that worried about his finances, then why was he prepared to go 2 years/%45+ million for Manny, reportedly? wouldnt he just not consider Manny at all if he was so cooked in his books?”"

    Fans/media woulda crucified him if he didnt make an offer,,we all know manny wont take two yrs, so its a ‘save face’ token gesture offer..

  15. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 9:35 am

    “we all know manny wont take two yrs, so its a ‘save face’ token gesture offer..”

    and they pulled that offer back, but arent finished negotiating, reportedly.

    but look at the rotation in LA… they dont have one.

  16. Y's Guy November 26th, 2008 at 9:36 am

    pettitte’s crazy to think that anyone but the yankees will pay him in the 8 figures. he’s getting the usual ‘family premium’ from the yanks. i know buisness is buisness but he’s gotta know that even at $12M he’s getting a 20-40% premium over his actual value.

  17. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 9:36 am

    “but look at the rotation in LA… they dont have one.”

    and why not just take the $$ they spent on Lowe last season, and spin that over to carry into 2009 to pay for Pettitte for one more year?

    again, not saying its going to happen… but it cant just be dismissed. thats silly.

  18. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 9:37 am

    “and you’re telling me the Dodgers dont have sincere interest in Pettitte on a one year deal? ”

    No I really doubt they do. Maybe if Pettitte would sign for $10 million but he obviously wants $16 million.

  19. miggs November 26th, 2008 at 9:43 am

    Come on. Pettitte playing in LA?

    This from a guy who values time with his family so much, agonizes over playing or not playing, flirts with retirement on an annual basis.

    This is the same guy who stated after this year he would pitch for the Yankees or nowhere at all. The guy who was dying to pitch in the new stadium.

    Yeah, he’s going to LA. You guys really will believe anything you read.

  20. jk November 26th, 2008 at 9:46 am

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....6824.story

    Foxsports.com reported last night that Pettitte had spoken multiple times with Joe Torre, who managed Pettitte for nine of his 14 major-league seasons. However, a Dodgers official said it was unlikely that the team would acquire Pettitte, who has not been receptive to the Yankees’ request for a pay cut from the $16 million he earned in 2008.

  21. DPF November 26th, 2008 at 9:46 am

    SJ44: I like the thought of the Red Sox not signing Tex, CC, or AJ. Based on your post above you believe that they will not wind up with any of the 3. That is a good thing especially with the $ they coming off the books.

  22. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 9:47 am

    Maybe the Dodgers are waiting to see if the Yankees offer arbitration to Andy. If they don’t offer arbitration-and they haven’t yet-the Dodgers don’t lose a firt round pick.

  23. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 9:47 am

    “Yeah, he’s going to LA. You guys really will believe anything you read.”

    it isnt at all about believing everything you read.

    its about recognizing that he’s a human being, and can change his mind.

    about realizing that the Dodgers prob do have interest in a reliable veteran pitcher on a short term deal.

    noone saying he’s on his way to sign the contract… just dismissing the idea that its a smoke screen, and there’s no possible way Andy wants to pitch for Joe Torre again, or that the Dodgers have no interest whatsoever in Pettitte.

  24. miggs November 26th, 2008 at 9:48 am

    On the other hand, the silence from the CC camp is a little alarming.

    Logic says the Angels need a first baseman a lot more than a starter. Hopefully this is a ploy to flush out Tiexiera. But you have to ask yourself: “Do I really want CC here if he obviously doesn’t want to be here?” Now we don’t know if he really does or not and if he signs he’ll say how much he loves NY in his press conference and everything else.

    But if the Angels offer 10-15 million less than the Yankees, they shouldn’t feel inclined to up their offer. If we need to pay 20-30 million more than our nearest competitor just to get this guy then let him walk. Why pay someone an obscene amount of money knowing the only reason he is here is because the offer blows away other offers? Something about that rubs me the wrong way.

  25. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 9:50 am

    Turn Two:

    More I think about it, the less plausible it seems. I keep coming back to giving up the draft pick. Still, they definitely need some pitching help with Lowe and Maddux leaving, and Kershaw, Billingsley and James McDonald still too young to lead a rotation. I see them looking at some Type B’s such as Garland. Maybe Paul Byrd. Also wouldn’t shock me if they placed a call to Randy Johnson for a year of service.

  26. RJPinstripes November 26th, 2008 at 9:50 am

    I knew LeBron was a class-act when I first heard him talk to the media when he was in high school. The kid (just like Jeter) has IT ! Many of today’s hot-shot young athletes could learn so much from LeBron!!!!! And Jeter BTW ! Just watch what they do (off the court and field) and listen to what they say!

  27. Y's Guy November 26th, 2008 at 9:52 am

    im not saying andy wont go to l.a.

    im saying that pettitte costs more than $12M, the yankees should bid adieu and get someone else.

  28. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 9:53 am

    Fredo …… wouldn’t the Dodgers pick up draft picks for losing Maddux and Lowe? Hence, a zero sum game?

  29. miggs November 26th, 2008 at 9:54 am

    I am dismissing the idea. Sorry.

    Pettitte can talk to Torre 5 times a day and it doesn’t mean anything. Torre has no say on personnel moves.

    You really believe there’s a chance Pettitte pitches for the Dodgers? Because I don’t.

    This is about a player trying to squeeze more money out of the Yankees. A player that, frankly, doesn’t deserve more money. He deserves less, and that’s what he will get. The Yankees have been overpaying him since they lured him back from Houston.

    So Andy Pettitte, man of high morals and family values who has only pitched for 2 teams his entire career, is going to move his family 3000 miles away from Westchester (where they love it by the way) so he can pitch one more year.

    Sorry, not buying it for a second.

  30. GreenBeret7 November 26th, 2008 at 9:55 am

    Y’s Guy
    November 26th, 2008 at 9:16 am
    ok u take pettitte at $16M and here’s how ill spend my $16M:
    livan hernandez to start and garret anderson for the 4th of/ bench/ dh
    which helps the team more?
    —————————————————————————————-

    OK, own up. You’re really Randy I, aren’t you?

  31. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 9:55 am

    I can easily see the Red Sox bidding on Teixeira.

    First, they have a lot of money available to spend.

    Second, if Lowell can’t play, the Sox need the offense. If Lowell can play, then they would be able to trade Lowell if they wanted – his contract is not bad (if he can play).

    Third, if they don’t want to trade Lowell, they can move Youk to LF, Bey to RF and Drew to CF.

    They’d have an awesome lineup, very good pitching and a young team.

  32. george November 26th, 2008 at 9:56 am

    i don’t think Pettitte owes the Yankees anything in terms of taking a pay cut.

    look at how much Burnett’s gonna get. Derek Lowe. jeez, even Oliver Perez. they’ll all get multi-years too.

    Pettitte, by all reports anyway, just wants a 1-year. since it’s just that, IMO his market value for 2009 is more than than whatever Burnett/Lowe will be paid.

  33. ham fighters November 26th, 2008 at 9:58 am

    if im cashman, here’s my offer to andy’s agent:

    $12 million for one year, take it or leave it. the offer expires next tuesday.

  34. miggs November 26th, 2008 at 9:59 am

    Wave Your Hat…..

    that Red Sox lineup would be the worst defensive team in the history of the MLB.

    Drew in center? Come on be realistic.

  35. green ellis November 26th, 2008 at 10:00 am

    I wonder if Rodney Harrison is going to come back next year? Pete, have you heard any stories about whether he will or not and if he’ll use HGH again to help aid a comeback.

  36. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 10:01 am

    “Fredo …… wouldn’t the Dodgers pick up draft picks for losing Maddux and Lowe? Hence, a zero sum game?”

    For Lowe, 2 picks. For Maddux, one in the sandwich round, but it sounds like he may retire.

    Bigger issue is the ONE year. Just isn’t worth tossing a pick for one season of a guy (Pettitte) who does not bring #1 or #2 starter quality innings and isn’t the difference between contending and not contending.

    You can make the argument (albeit not a great one IMO) that Lowe would be worth giving up the pick because whoever signs him will have him as a contributor for 4 seasons or so. That argument can’t be made at all for Pettitte.

  37. gdamac November 26th, 2008 at 10:01 am

    “Why do people like Jeter more than A-rod?” – wow, what a great question. Were they sports writers or poparazzi? Sounds like a question a 12 year old girl would ask.

  38. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 10:03 am

    “I am dismissing the idea. Sorry.”

    then you made up your mind before the discussion even began.

  39. miggs November 26th, 2008 at 10:03 am

    I do think they should get Andy taken care of, however.

    Right now there are so many holes in the rotation it gives the team virtually no leverage. Agents and players must smell the desperation.

    At least with Pettitte signed the team has 3 rotation spots filled. I’m really not sure what they are waiting for unless there’s a huge gap between the Yankees offer and Pettitte’s asking price.

  40. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 10:03 am

    miggs-

    I think you are wrong. Youk would not hurt that much in LF in Fenway, Bey would be just fine in RF and Drew would be passable in center. The Yanks have won with much worse defensive outfields.

    Meanwhile, their infield defense would be extremely good.

  41. Vader November 26th, 2008 at 10:03 am

    What are the odds that Buster Olney or Ken Rosenthal have a breaking story this weekend that CC signs with the Angels and then has egg on their face when they are wrong?

  42. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 10:05 am

    “What are the odds that Buster Olney or Ken Rosenthal have a breaking story this weekend that CC signs with the Angels and then has egg on their face when they are wrong?”

    pretty high.

  43. miggs November 26th, 2008 at 10:06 am

    “then you made up your mind before the discussion even began.”

    No I didn’t. I just happen to look at things logically and after taking into consideration all factors I don’t see the fit, either for ther Dodgers or Andy.

    The money is a problem. The location is a problem. The draft pick is a problem.

    I just don’t see the point in discussing something that has no chance of happening. You apparently enjoy debating scenarios that have no chance of occuring. So go ahead.

  44. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 10:08 am

    ““Why do people like Jeter more than A-rod?” – wow, what a great question. Were they sports writers or poparazzi? Sounds like a question a 12 year old girl would ask.”

    They’re covering the Knicks, the Cincinnati Bengals of the NBA. What are they going to do? Discuss the Knicks? They have one of the faces of the NBA who’s a Yankees fan in front of them. Nothing wrong with a Yankees question or two.

  45. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 10:11 am

    “The money is a problem.”

    thats what negotiations are for.

    “The location is a problem.”

    why? he’s done it before.

    “The draft pick is a problem.”

    said who? Dodgers have a solid farm system… why wouldnt they be amenable to giving up a single 1st round pick if they knew they could plug an immediate hole for the MLB team?

  46. miggs November 26th, 2008 at 10:11 am

    Wave Your Hat -

    I guess its a possibility. I just don’t see Drew as an everyday CF. Maybe a spot CF, but not everyday.

    Then you’re having Youk, Bay, and Drew (your entire outfield) playing out of position.

    Makes a lot more sense to trade Lowell, but again I don’t see many takers. You don’t trade for a guy coming off hip surgery with 2 years and 25 million left on his deal. Unless you’re a moron. Or the Red Sox eat about half the money.

  47. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 10:14 am

    Here’s why the Yanks haven’t made an offer to Andy yet, IMO:

    1) They haven’t decided if they need to get three pitchers or two from the free agent market.

    2) They haven’t signed CC and they haven’t made up their minds between AJ, Lowe, Pettitte, Oliver Perez or others.

    3) Andy wants more money than the Yanks want to pay him.

    4) The Yanks haven’t decided to go short term or long term for Pettitte’s slot.

  48. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 10:16 am

    “Or the Red Sox eat about half the money.”

    that’d have to be the case… but then for the first two years of a Teixeira deal, they are basically adding, what, like $6 million a year to his annual value while they pay off Lowell?

    doesnt seem like a very Theo-like thing the Saux normally do.

  49. miggs November 26th, 2008 at 10:16 am

    Ok Turn Two your last post proved to me you cannot be reasoned with. I’m not going to respond to your nonsense anymore. Its the same old song and dance with you everytime. It gets old after awhile.

    You put my post in quotes and respond to it with a bunch of crap. Give me some logic. Use facts. Just don’t waste my tiem with this garbage anymore.

  50. CB November 26th, 2008 at 10:18 am

    When people discuss the dodgers I think they don’t have a real sense of Frank McCourt and how he bought the team.

    McCourt simply did not have enough money to buy the dodgers. He’s a wealthy guy – but not absurdly so. He’s not Dan Syneider or Mark Cuban.

    He bought the Dodgers with borrowed money – his purchase was highly leveraged. McCourt was one of those people who took advantage of the credit bubble to buy an asset he could otherwise never have bought.

    So for McCourt revenue and expenses are everything. He has to meet fairly large obligations to service his debt on the team every year. That money has to come from the Dodgers net revenue streams.

    This is why he does not want to take on payroll – especially long term payroll. This is why he was never going to pay CC.

    McCourt does enough cosmetic moves each season to appease Dodger fans and that’s it.

    Some people in LA also believe that McCourt’s primary interest in buying the Dodgers wasn’t the team – it was the stadium. He’s a real estate developer. The land at Chavez Ravine is probably worth more than the team itself.

    McCourt’s goal isn’t winning. It’s making sure he can pay off his debt and to do enough to keep fans moderately happy.

    Sure they could sign Pettite. But it’s not likely they would pay Pettite what he wants to be a back of the rotation guy. There’s no comparison between Pettite and Lowe right now – Lowe is a legitimate #2 in the NL. No evidence that Andy still could be.

  51. green ellis November 26th, 2008 at 10:19 am

    the red sox can get away with anything, even if that means leaving drew in center on an everyday basis, but what about jack coby??

  52. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 10:21 am

    “You put my post in quotes and respond to it with a bunch of crap. Give me some logic. Use facts.”

    Facts??? Logic??? Why should he? You didn’t.

    You guys have two disparate opinions. Kinda what this blog is all about. Nothing about your opinion that makes it more logical or factual than his or anyone else’s.

  53. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 10:21 am

    “Give me some logic. Use facts. Just don’t waste my tiem with this garbage anymore.”

    that is logic.

    you say he wouldnt move his family… but he has before.

    you say the money is a problem…. if he wants to play, he’ll negotiate down. if thats with the yankees, everyone here is happy. but if the yankees dont offer him a contract, which is unlikely at this point, the dodgers money is just as green.

    you say the draft pick is a problem…. but the Dodgers have a deep system, and get back picks for letting Lowe go. thats even steven.

  54. 86w183 November 26th, 2008 at 10:22 am

    I’m with Miggs… that would be a hideously bad defensive OF in Boston. Well below average at all 3 spots with one average arm and terrible range across the board.

    Pettite talking with Torre, Angels sending out feelers on CC it’s all about posturing. Eventually the Yanks will offer Pettite arbitration, guaranteeing him at least $ 12.8 M. He accepts and that will be that.

    Fredo— How on earth is Lowe better than Pettite? Andy has a far superior AL East track record, if left handed and is only one year older. Lowe’s last two AL seasons his ERA was 4.92. Pettite has NEVER had an ERA that bad.

  55. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 10:22 am

    “Nothing about your opinion that makes it more logical or factual than his or anyone else’s.”

    exactly.

  56. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 10:23 am

    If Manny leaves they get a draft pick fot that too.

  57. CB November 26th, 2008 at 10:25 am

    “Third, if they don’t want to trade Lowell, they can move Youk to LF, Bey to RF and Drew to CF.”

    I think this has been mentioned before. I find this completely implausible.

    Jason Bey is an awful defensive left fielder who has a very poor left field arm. He has bad knees that that erased most of his range.

    He cannot play RF in Fenway. That is a relatively large RF.

    Drew has good range for RF and perhaps could have played CF when he was younger – but no shot now. He just isn’t a CF. And CF at fenway is large. On top of that Drew is always getting hurt and he’d only be at increased injury risk in CF.

    Unless Theo just decided that oufield defense is something he doesn’t need (check Wakefield and Matsuzaka’s GB:FB…) then that can’t happen.

    That would be amongst the worst outfield defenses in baseball. I can’t see that fitting into their team philosophy.

  58. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    86:

    When did I say Pettitte was better than Lowe or visa versa??? All I suggested was that a better argument could be made for sacrificing a 1st round pick for 4-5 seasons of Lowe than can be made for one season of Pettitte.

  59. Ariel November 26th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    Is this the same “LeBron” who attended the 07 ALDS wearing his Yankee hat and rooting for NY while his “good buddy” CC was pitching against his team? LeBron knows as much about what CC is going to do as you or I. He is plainly on his PR path to ingratiate the City in anticipation of his arrival in 2010, when he expects it to be his “town”. A great player LeBron indeed is, and also very smart and cunning.

  60. dave November 26th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    So if the angels are offering cc a bid that supposedly approaches the yanks 140 million to get tex to the table, what happens if CC accepts the offer on the spot? And it is being reported that the angels are getting ready to make CC a big while at the same time, the media is saying the angels have not yet made teixera an offer. Am I missing something?

    Shouldnt the angels offer Tex a contract first? Shouldnt the angels offer significantly less than the yanks offered for CC if this is all some elaborate scheme to get tex to sign? havent the angels brass been whining and complaining for about a decade that they need and can never get someone to protect vlad in the lineup? How come none of these reports follow any of this obvious logic?

  61. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    Turn Two …. Under Theo, the Sox haven’t had qualms about eating salary (Renteria, Manny). They’d eat some of Lowell’s salary.

    The Sox have to be concerned about the age/health of several of their middle-of-the-order hitters (Ortiz, Drew, Lowell). Texeira gives them youth, consistency, and productivity for the foreseeable future. I’m convinced that they want him, and want him badly.

    Remember, the Sox came THIS CLOSE to going into the 2008 playoffs w/o their 3, 5 and 6 hitters. Theo doesn’t want to risk that scenario again.

  62. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 10:30 am

    “If Manny leaves they get a draft pick fot that too.”

    We sure on this? I thought one of the provisions of the trade was that the Dodgers would not offer arbitration.

  63. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 10:32 am

    “Under Theo, the Sox haven’t had qualms about eating salary (Renteria, Manny). They’d eat some of Lowell’s salary.”

    fair point… forgot about Renteria.

    i wouldnt necessarily throw Manny in that mix, though… that situation seems like it was a whole nother beast.

  64. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 10:33 am

    “We sure on this? I thought one of the provisions of the trade was that the Dodgers would not offer arbitration.”

    i think it was moreso an agreement that they wouldnt pick up the options, not that they wouldnt offer arbitration.

  65. Ariel November 26th, 2008 at 10:34 am

    Andy is not going to LA…. The McCourts will not pay him squatt, plain and simple. They are trying to avoid paying anything this year to anyone citing the woeful economic times, Manny in particular…today’s article in the LA Times makes Mr and Mrs M. look absolutely silly, and actually insulting to the public.

    Look for Manny also in Pinstripes on the Yankee’s terms.

  66. ham fighters November 26th, 2008 at 10:37 am

    dave, how stupid would it be for cc to just take the angels offer on the spot? dont u think he’s wait for the yankee’s counter-offer? even if he does it just to prod arte into sweetening the pot? he’s not stupid enough to sign on the spot with the yankees still on the hook.

  67. CB November 26th, 2008 at 10:37 am

    Brian,

    If the Sox sign Tex what will they do with Lars Anderson? I don’t think he can play left field. Would they commit a 20 year old to becoming a DH? Would they seriously trade him?

    I’m not saying the Sox don’t have interest in Tex. But the fit seems so bad.

    They have to eat money on Lowell’s contract – most likely quite a bit of it.

    They commit to Tex for 8-10 years while at the same time blocking the prospect who plays the same position and is by far the best young player in the organization. Right now the sox system breaks down into Lars Anderson and everyone else – he’s that good a prospect.

    They could pay Lars league minimum for years but are instead choosing to pay Tex $23M/yr for close to a decade?

    That just doesn’t seem to fit with the sox philosophy.

    I understand that Papi is aging, Manny is gone, etc. I also understand that prospects are uncertain, etc.

    But the Sox are set up very well right now to call up Anderson in a year, move Youk to third, trade Lowell after he shows he’s healthy and sign Matt Holliday next year to play the OF.

  68. Bronx Jeers November 26th, 2008 at 10:47 am

    I don’t think the fans in LA will give a doodoo if the Dodgers sign Andy. They want their Manny at this point.

    Although if the Yanks do succeed in signing 2 out of the big 3 pitchers, do they really need Andy and his 10-12 mil pricetag as a #4 ? When Joba’s you’re #5, can’t you afford to go with a cheaper guy? Probably.

    Don’t get me wrong though. I still want Andy as I believe he’s goona have a bounceback year a la Moose.
    1.CC
    2.Wang
    3.AJ or Lowe
    4.Any durable guy
    5.Joba

    Still need to get the big guys but I guess at this point Cash and co. still believe they’re the highroller.

    I hope they’re right.

  69. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 10:50 am

    CB – Re: Lars Anderson ….. The Sox gave up Hanley Ramirez (and other prospects) for Beckett and Lowell (which was a “bad contract” at the time). Anderson projects as a IB/DH, but is definitely the Sox best hitting prospect.

    However, he is nowhere nearly as highly thought of as H. Ramirez was ….. and the sox didn’t blink in giving up Ramirez. Although the Sox’ prospects often live up to much of their hype, I’d bet that the Sox will readily take the Texeira’s present over Anderson’s potential.

    They’ll use Anderson as a bargaining chip, or as a possible replacement for the declining Ortiz.

    In short, they see Texeira as a difference maker, and won’t let their current roster dampen their pursuit of him.

    Not that Theo told me that personally …..

  70. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 10:53 am

    “They could pay Lars league minimum for years but are instead choosing to pay Tex $23M/yr for close to a decade?”

    One thing I’d be careful not to discount is the possibility of them shopping Ortiz, who at $12M or so for the next three seasons is a pretty good contract for somebody looking for a big bat at DH.

    He’s a fan favorite up there and all, but Theo and the front office gang could care less about that.

  71. jk November 26th, 2008 at 10:53 am

    http://blogs.trb.com/sports/ba....._2008.html

    One Pettitte development: Friends say he really doesn’t want to return to his hometown Astros. He’s still upset with owner Drayton McLane and president Tal Smith for how things went down two years ago, when he returned to the Yankees.

  72. gdamac November 26th, 2008 at 10:55 am

    Fredo Corleone – good point, I just hate the whole A-rod drama, but it isn’t going anywhere. And thanks for not calling the Knicks the Oakland Raiders of the NBA, you easily could have!

    No matter how bad it gets I won’t hide from being a Raiders fan ;|

  73. cc November 26th, 2008 at 10:56 am

    “I know my stuff about the Yankees – they need some pitching, because they have all the offense in the world, and that can help.”

    Lebron must not have watched the 2008 Yankees as carefully as he would like us to think he did.

  74. I had a vision November 26th, 2008 at 10:58 am

    Damon CF
    Jeter SS
    Arod 3B
    Ramirez LF/DH
    Matsui LF/DH
    Posada C
    Nady RF
    Cano 2B
    Swisher 1B

    CC, Wang, Joba, Burnett, Pettitte/Hughes

  75. Kill.Schill(ing) November 26th, 2008 at 10:58 am

    CB, if the Yankees don’t sign Teixeira this season, they better sign Holliday next year.

    Going into 2010, the Yankees don’t have a single signed outfielder, NOT ONE. Not Damon, Not Matsui, Not Nady. Who’s going to play there? Austin Jackson?

    Doesn’t anyone in the Yankees Front-Office realize how old their position players are at every position?

    I still contend that the 300+ million in additional revenue the new Stadium will generate should enable them to sign both Sabathia (28) and Teixeira (28) and Pettitte to one-year.

    They then can try to trade Nady or Swisher and one or more of their relievers for another starter who can give them innings.

  76. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 11:00 am

    “One Pettitte development: Friends say he really doesn’t want to return to his hometown Astros.”

    obviously, the talk has been about Andy and the Dodgers, and this mentions his distaste with the Astros organization.

    just thinking out loud, but has anyone thought about Andy being open to going to Texas, should Tom Hicks throw some money his way?

    i think miggs mentioned he has a home in Westchester County, but I was under the impression his family still resides in Texas full time, no?

    isnt that where he went when his son had that football injury, something like that?

  77. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 11:01 am

    As good as Beckett is, if I were a Sox fan I’d regret the Ramirez trade.

  78. green ellis November 26th, 2008 at 11:01 am

    Brian,

    I have to agree with you. The Red Sox will do whatever it takes to put themselves in the best position to win. If they have to leave guys on the bench, it wont hurt them because the guys will come in for weekly starts and play well without becoming a clubhouse distraction

  79. pat November 26th, 2008 at 11:02 am

    “Under Theo, the Sox haven’t had qualms about eating salary (Renteria, Manny). They’d eat some of Lowell’s salary.”

    True but also under Theo the Sox have never given a position player a contract in excess of 5 years and that will have to change to get Tex.

  80. yankeefan91 (sign c.c asap) November 26th, 2008 at 11:02 am

    Damon CF
    Jeter SS
    Arod 3B
    Ramirez LF/DH
    Matsui LF/DH
    Posada C
    Nady RF
    Cano 2B
    Swisher 1B

    CC, Wang, Joba, Burnett, Pettitte/Hughes

    i had that lineup in mind but ill pitch

    cc,wang,burnett.pettite .joba

  81. yankeefan91 (sign c.c asap) November 26th, 2008 at 11:02 am

    Damon CF
    Jeter SS
    Arod 3B
    Ramirez LF/DH
    Matsui LF/DH
    Posada C
    Nady RF
    Cano 2B
    Swisher 1B

    CC, Wang, Joba, Burnett, Pettitte/Hughes

    i had that lineup in mind but ill pitch

    cc,wang,burnett.pettite .joba

  82. 86w183 November 26th, 2008 at 11:03 am

    Fredo—-

    You described Pettite as, “a guy who does not bring # 1 or # 2 starter quality innings.” That implies that Lowe, the other part of the discussion does offer such things, which he does not.

    Your premise that Lowe is worth a draft pick based on signing him for four years instead of Pettite for one is a false one. It assumes Pettite can only get one year and Lowe has to get at least four. Since there is a much larger financial commitment to the four year deal that makes the player LESS worth giving up a draft pick in my view since the “cost” is already very high.

  83. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 11:03 am

    The Yankees will sign a big name outfielder next offseason if they sign Tex or not. I think Holliday is very likely to sign with the Yanks next season (if he has a good year in Oakland).

  84. CB November 26th, 2008 at 11:04 am

    “In short, they see Texeira as a difference maker, and won’t let their current roster dampen their pursuit of him.”

    I guess this evaluation is what it gets down to. Do they feel Tex is a player who is an obtain at all costs even if it requires restructuring a good chunk of the organization to fit him in.

    I don’t doubt that Theo would trade Papi in a heart beat and they could move Anderson to DH. That’s just something not often done with young players.

    Not sure if Anderson is “nowhere nearly as highly thought of as H. Ramirez..” at the time Hanley was traded. Hanley’s stock had dropped quite a bit when that trade happened and I believe the Sox had soured on him quite a bit due to problems perceived in his work ethic/ attitude. Not saying they had given up on him or anything – he’s just fallen in the estimation of many people due to his relatively poor season in AA the year before. In terms of tools as a prospect Hanely would never have much competition there.

    It was a brief stint but what Anderson did after moving from lancaster to the eastern league was eye opening. Very, very impressive for a 20 year old to do that in AA.

    Arguably one of the games 5 best power hitting prospects…

  85. green ellis November 26th, 2008 at 11:05 am

    pat,

    that doesnt necessarily have to change. You dont think Tex might take less years to play with a ‘contender’. what happened with the Matsuzaka negotiations. Dice-k had all the leverage in the world, he could have taken himself right back to japan had he not gotten a reasonable offer, and he had boras as a client which should have boded well for him. But the only time boras took it in the rear was to send dice-k to the sox for a cheap 6 years 50 mil or something. That’s like 8+ mil a year when he could have demanded 12-14 a year at the time.

  86. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 11:10 am

    “You described Pettite as, “a guy who does not bring # 1 or # 2 starter quality innings.” That implies that Lowe, the other part of the discussion does offer such things, which he does not.”

    Actually, it implies no such thing.

    “Your premise that Lowe is worth a draft pick based on signing him for four years instead of Pettite for one is a false one. It assumes Pettite can only get one year and Lowe has to get at least four.”

    Actually it assumes Pettitte WANTS only one year. I only assume that because he said that’s what he wants. I do assume Lowe gets four simply because that’s what the market has been for FA pitchers in recent years, even if they aren’t top flight pitchers (Pavano, Silva, etc).

  87. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 11:13 am

    The only way the Sox sign Teixeira is if they find someone to take Lowell off their hands. Theres no way Theo would sign Tex and just throw Lowell on the bench. Theres also no way that Theo goes with an outfield of Youkilis, Drew, Bay.

    I don’t see what team in the league would trade anything of value for Lowell. Honestly the only team that could eat Lowell’s salary are the Yankees and obviously thats not happening.

    Would the Sox be willing to eat half of Lowell’s remaining salary and get back a couple B level prospects from a team like the Phillies? I doubt it.

  88. CB November 26th, 2008 at 11:13 am

    “if the Yankees don’t sign Teixeira this season, they better sign Holliday next year.”

    KS,

    I’m sure part of their thinking this year on Tex is influenced by their desperate need for outfielders next year.

    It’s just easier to get 1b than it is an outfielder, particularly a good defensive outfielder.

    That said, part of why I’m more open to them signing Tex this year if at all possible is that I’d rather have Tex than Matt Holliday. They’re similar, but I think Tex is the better player and they’ll cost similar amounts.

    I’m very interested in seeing what Holliday does this year in Oakland as I do think his production has been significantly inflated in Colorado. This year we’ll see more the player he is.

    The flip side to all of this is that the economy may look much worse next summer – we’ll see more of the accumulated effects of the financial meltdown/recession/ deflation by then.

    It may be much cheaper to sign players next winter than this. But who knows.

    All of these issues really stem from the lack of player development since 2001. It’s now really coming home to roost.

    Regardless of what happens this winter they need to keep trying to get better at player development and to allocate resources in that direction.

  89. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 11:15 am

    “Would the Sox be willing to eat half of Lowell’s remaining salary and get back a couple B level prospects from a team like the Phillies? I doubt it.”

    I don’t. I think they’d do that in a heartbeat.

  90. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 11:18 am

    CB & Pat – I think that Tex’ age, durability and position will nudge the Sox into going for a long-term contract. They gave DiceK 6 years, but his age at the time (26) was a key determinant.

    patrick – re: ” regretting the Hanley Ramirez trade” ….. there’s value in having your prospects pan out after trades; it validates your scouting/development system, and adds value to your prospects in future trades.
    I might offer that Cashman is terrified of trading someone and having the player succeed – he feels a need to “win” the trade battle, and doesn’t realize that other teams will be more likely to do business if they think that they’re getting comparable value (the proverbial “win-win”).

  91. pat November 26th, 2008 at 11:19 am

    green ellis

    I don’t think Tex will give up years to play for a contender. If he would, Arte Moreno would be meeting with Scott Boras as I type this and completing the deal.

    Dice-K is a different animal. Boras does his best work when he gets teams in a bidding war and with Dice-K he could only negotiate with one team and the alternative was to return to Japan and make much less money there than the Sox were willing to give.

  92. duh November 26th, 2008 at 11:20 am

    “Dice-k had all the leverage in the world, he could have taken himself right back to japan had he not gotten a reasonable offer”

    the first half of your sentence is completely at odds with the second half.

    he had NO leverage. his only option was returning to Japan, which he didn’t want to do.

    what an odd read on the situation.

  93. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 11:20 am

    “patrick – re: ” regretting the Hanley Ramirez trade” ….. there’s value in having your prospects pan out after trades; it validates your scouting/development system, and adds value to your prospects in future trades.”

    I’d guess they don’t much regret the 2007 championship either.

  94. pat November 26th, 2008 at 11:22 am

    Brian

    IMO, the only reason they gave Dice-K 6 years was because it gave them a way of amortizing his posting fee.

  95. dave November 26th, 2008 at 11:24 am

    cant put joba as the number three starter – he wont log enough innings and he will have to skip starts. He has to be number five.

  96. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 11:26 am

    “I don’t. I think they’d do that in a heartbeat. ”

    Really? They’d be eating $12 million dollars and getting nothing back. I just don’t think that Theo would be too thrilled with that.

    “I might offer that Cashman is terrified of trading someone and having the player succeed ”

    You are wrong here. He traded Tabata; arguably New York’s highest ceiling position prospect (except for Montero).

    “I’d guess they don’t much regret the 2007 championship either.”

    No of course not but look at the trade in a void. Would you rather have Hanley Ramirez or Josh Beckett? Both teams benefited from the trade but Ramirez is easily the better player right now and in the future.

    If the Sox kept Ramirez who’s to say they wouldn’t have won in 2007 or 2008?

  97. CB November 26th, 2008 at 11:27 am

    “I might offer that Cashman is terrified of trading someone and having the player succeed – he feels a need to “win” the trade battle”

    I don’t think that’s the right description. It has to do with scarcity of resources.

    The yankees just ignored player development for years and didn’t have many young players to trade. Thus the reluctance.

    Cashman has been trying to turn an aircraft carrier so to speak. He’s wanted to the team to get younger, less reliant on big contracts, and built around pitching.

    They just have had very few good players developed out of their system and without that none of those goals for a long term change in the organization is possible.

    And I do think that’s changing. Trading Jose Tabata in the Nady/ Marte deal was a good example of the “win win” issue. The yankees filled two needs and gave up a talented player in return.

    Tabata is now the pirates best prospect.

  98. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    Sooooooo…not gonna say I told ya so but Brook Lopez on NBA rookie rankings is 4th place above Mr.Beasley…ummm who would posters rather have ?

  99. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 26th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    pat,

    I agree.

    As a Boras client, Tex will sign with whoever gives him the most money and years.

  100. ray (sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    “Would the Sox be willing to eat half of Lowell’s remaining salary and get back a couple B level prospects from a team like the Phillies? I doubt it.”

    If doing that meant having Tex under contract for a long time I honestly don’t think the Sox would even hesitate for a minute to do what is mentioned above.

  101. ariel November 26th, 2008 at 11:30 am

    If anyone believes the Dodgers would seriously consider signing Andy I would suggest you read the following article appearing in today’s LA Times. http://www.latimes.com/sports/.....2785.story

  102. green ellis November 26th, 2008 at 11:30 am

    I see your point. I always maintained that it would have been easier to maintain his home culture and he would have made at least enough to survive, 3-4 mil a year.

    Also, about Tex, my point was he’ll drop the years to go to the red sox because they somehow have ‘more to offer’ than other teams. That’s why a guy like Papi or Brady take pay cuts and Manny, keeping aside that he’s an immature child, gets abused by the Red Sox and still hits .300 and 30+ homers for them.

  103. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 11:31 am

    “If the Sox kept Ramirez who’s to say they wouldn’t have won in 2007 or 2008?”

    Anyone who watched the 2007 postseason. Doesn’t happen without Beckett, period.

    I’ll give you ’08, but at the same time who’s to say Ramirez’s game would be what it’s been in a more high test atmosphere than the friends and family crowd he’s played before for more than half his career.

  104. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 11:33 am

    “Tabata is now the pirates best prospect.”

    Believe McCutcheon (the outfielder, not the pitcher the Yankees sent them in the same deal) still rates higher.

  105. CB November 26th, 2008 at 11:33 am

    Eating half of Lowell’s contract won’t be an enormous issue for the sox.

    Eating all of it or 90% of it would I think be a problem but not half. $24M is a lot of money.

    I don’t think they’d be thrilled by eating half of it but I think they would do it as long as they felt they were getting something of some kind of value back.

  106. OldYanksFan November 26th, 2008 at 11:34 am

    SJ44 – I have a few questios for you
    =========================================================
    I like Andy… he’s a Yankee… we badly needing pitching this year…. Andy is a solid #3/#4 guy for $10/$12m.
    1) That said, always considering the future… might it be better to not give up a first round pick, and let Andy go?
    2) If Andy signs for 1 year, he might be a Type B AFTER this year. In 2010, can the Yanks offer him ARB, Andy turns it down, becomes an FA, the Yankees get a pick…. and then Andy retirers? It’s a bit sleazy, but is it/can it be done?
    3) I say Sheets over AJ. Hands down. What do you think? It doesn’t matter as much who might be better, as much as the COST and length of ontract. Either one could be really good or end up injured.
    4) Are the Yanks thinking about the 2010 Outfield NOW? Basically we have NONE. I only consider Nady IF we have 2 other VERY GOOD OFs. But if we keep Brett/Melky in CF, I think we need 2 above average guys at the corners. I think Holliday would be a fine player. Not too old, has pop but isn’t slow or one-dimensional. He’s hard nosed and the type of players the Yankees need. If we do NOT get Tex, Swisher is a good enough 1Bman, and better there then the OF. Do you think the Yanks are targeting Holliday?

  107. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 11:34 am

    “Also, about Tex, my point was he’ll drop the years to go to the red sox because they somehow have ‘more to offer’ than other teams”

    Not a chance in hell of thid being true. Were the Yankees or Angels to offer more than Boston, he’s going to the Yankees or Angels.

  108. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 11:34 am

    Fredo, we all know Beckett carried that team to a World Series win in 2007. However, if they had Ramirez it would help them be a better team over a long period of time. It doesn’t make sense to evaluate trades by looking at one postseason. I think its better to look at the overall value of both players and compare. The trade worked out for both teams but if I were a Sox fan I’d be wishing for Ramirez right about now.

  109. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 11:34 am

    thid = this

  110. Kill.Schill(ing) November 26th, 2008 at 11:35 am

    CB, I agree with you about the void the Front-Office’s neglect of player development during the early part of the decade has created.

    What’s more disconcerting to me however– we can’t alter the past after all– is that the Yankees’ player development personnel still doesn’t rival the Red Menace’s or the Rays’, for that matter.

    Are you really that impressed with Oppenheim? I’m not. He seems competent, just not especially sharp or prescient.

    How the heck did the Yankees squander both their first and second round picks this year, for example? That’s indefensible. BA didn’t think much of their overall draft either.

    True, the Yankees have excelled with Latin American player development but the Red Sox have surpassed them by leaps and bounds in Japan.

    To my mind, Cashman still suffers from a lack of perceptive talent evaluators. Particularly because I don’t think much of his assessments of players’ potential either, especially not of starting pitchers.

  111. mel November 26th, 2008 at 11:37 am

    If McCourt is such a spendthrift, then Andy Pettitte would be the perfect signing. A one year commitment would be the cheapest way to go. Any other starter will require 3 years +.

    Doesn’t the Tex to Boston stuff seem like it came out of left field?

    Anyone else sick of hearing about LeBron? Is this going to happen everytime he goes to NYC? And heaven forbid if they should meet up in the playoffs. That’s a potential extra 7 opportunities to overhype this thing. No offese to the fans, the media’s just going crazy with this thing.

  112. CB November 26th, 2008 at 11:37 am

    Actually, Pedro Alvarez would have to be thought of as the pirates best prospect.

    But you’re right – McCutchen would still have to be higher than Tabata. Tabata would probably be #3 in the pirates organization. His ceiling is higher than McCutchen’s, IMO.

  113. green ellis November 26th, 2008 at 11:39 am

    Fredo,

    I’ll remember this when Peter Gammons goes on ESPN spewing his normal Red Sox propoganda and Boras decides to team up yet again with the Sox and they swoop in for 5-6 years 100-135 mil.

  114. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 11:41 am

    I will defer to the majority on the defensive qualities of a Youkilis-Drew-Bey outfield. If you think the Sox won’t try to get Teixeira, though, I think you are letting your heart govern your head.

    If Lowell is healthy, he’s very tradeable at $12MM per year for two years. If he’s not, I don’t see the Sox having any issue moving Youk to third. I don’t think they will let payroll stand in the way.

    They would be exchanging a young Teixeira for an aging Lowell, the way they exchanged Bey for Manny. The future offense and expense of Teixeira and Bey would probably equal that of Manny and Lowell at this point, but the team would be a lot younger.

  115. Kill.Schill(ing) November 26th, 2008 at 11:43 am

    I still don’t like that deal with the Pirates. For relinquishing all that talent, the Yankees, I contend, still would be better served in 2009 by Bay than Nady and Marte, especially if they insist on letting Abreu leave and not signing Teixeira.

  116. Jeff November 26th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    Just like there were reports last week that the Dodgers/Giants were about to make a significant offer that never materialized, the Angels could be a smoke screen as well.

    Until they submit the bid, it is a smoke screen.

  117. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    CB & Patrick – forgot about Tabata; trading him was a risk. Although, as I recall it, he was (allegedly) falling into the same “black hole” of personal development that was said to be hindering Hanley Ramirez’ progress.

    But the point is well-taken on Cashman having a limited amount of ML ready prospect chips, hindering his flexibility.

  118. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    Patrick:

    I can’t get in the head of the Boston front office, but I have to believe the objective of that trade was to get a front end of the rotation type who could help the team be championship competitive over the long term. I believe this even more when I see that they signed him to a lengthy deal in the middle of a rather weak 1st season. The results have been one WS and an ALCS Game 7 in consecutive years, and a team that is expected to compete for a title yet again in ’09. Ceretainly they recognize that not having Ramirez isn’t a good thing, but my perception of what their objective was in doing the deal has more or less been realized and I doubt they sit around lamenting the fact that Hanley Ramirez is a Marlin.

  119. ray (sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 11:45 am

    “and Manny, keeping aside that he’s an immature child, gets abused by the Red Sox and still hits .300 and 30+ homers for them.”

    Please help me understand how the Red Sox “abused” Manny??

    IMO the biggest fault of the Sox was that they actually let Manny get away with too much because they liked Manny’s production at the plate.

    Letting “manny be manny” has a way of coming back to bite you and that is what the Sox experienced.

    Manny abused by the Sox…….I don’t think so.

  120. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 11:49 am

    “If Lowell is healthy, he’s very tradeable at $12MM per year for two years. If he’s not, I don’t see the Sox having any issue moving Youk to third. I don’t think they will let payroll stand in the way. ”

    Yes but I still don’t see any team that would WANT Lowell for $12 mil over 2 years. The fact is he has a busted hip and its not likely that he will ever play like he did in 2007.

    Maybe I’m off-base in thinking that the Sox would not get rid of him if another team takes half his contract but I’m not even sure any team would go that far.

    And to be quite honest, I don’t care if the Sox sign Teixeira. The Yankees should worry about their team and refuse to make reactionary moves like signing Teixeira to keep him from the Red Sox. I’d rather not sacrifice long-term flexibility just because there are rumors the Sox might sign Tex.

    Tex would be a good sign because it would help the YANKEES, not because it would hurt the Sox.

  121. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 11:51 am

    “Please help me understand how the Red Sox “abused” Manny??”

    How about the way they visciously honored his contract, something Ramirez himself was unwilling to do? That was abusive, no???

    Agree 100%, Ray. Manny is a turd who happens to swing a big bat. Because of that bat, the Red Sox were his chief enabler.

  122. Zolio November 26th, 2008 at 11:51 am

    mel,

    I think the timing of it contributed to the mass media coverage. The Knicks made that deal 3 days before LeBron was set to come to NYC, so it was a week of complete pandemonium and hoopla.

    But for the next 2 years… this is all they will be writing about, this and Marbury.

  123. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 11:53 am

    Patrick-

    I’m not buying this “long-term flexibility” argument. What you want is wins, not flexibility. Teixeira is young, we will always have to pay big bucks for a first baseman anyway, and there is no candidate we have for the first base job down the road that is worth being concerned about.

  124. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 11:54 am

    God I heard the most disgusting thing on ESPN from some TMZ guy, Max Kellerman asked TMZ’s head because C-Rod is better looking than Madge he probably grew bored of her so the same will happen w/ Madonna so why is he w/ her the TMZ guy said “well Madonna is a freak” (you put the two together) now I’m going to throw out my last piece of chicken.

    Be back later.

  125. CB November 26th, 2008 at 11:56 am

    “Are you really that impressed with Oppenheim? I’m not. He seems competent, just not especially sharp or prescient.”

    As a whole I think he’s done a good job. I guess my one concern is that at times he (and Cashman) seem overly concerned with spending the organization’s money.

    I almost get a feeling that Cashman has reacted to the profligate ways the team has been run with by going in the opposite direction too much on marginal expenses.

    Does it really matter at all if they spend $8M on the draft or $12M? Not really.

    That said the drafting has been better. In baseball it’s such a crap shoot.

    People tend to focus too much on the first round pick when looking at the draft (e.g. perception Tampa is only good becasue they pick so high every year…).

    Drafts are really made in the latter rounds.

    One thing I wish the yankees would do is to take more high risk talent in the latter rounds.

    They’ve developed a pattern where they’ll take an expensive high risk guy early on (CJ Henry, Joba, Brackman…) and then hedge that risk with safer college players in the next several rounds.

    Those college players just aren’t panning out to help the team.

    This year they selected Cole as the high risk guy then a series of very, very safe picks.

    The red sox almost do the opposite. They often take safer picks in round 1 (or at least guys who won’t be exorbitantly expensive to sign) and then in rounds 2-6 start taking high risk guys.

    The Sox draft this year was very good due to that strategy.

    What happened in the draft this year for the yankees was inexcusable. I wrote this at the time of the signing period – if you are going to make the draft/player development the core strategy of the team that becomes a mission critical priority. You just can’t fail at a mission critical priority.

    And they did. It wasn’t just Cole and Bittle. It was also losing out on Inoa to Beane. I still can’t believe all of that happened.

    It was a terrible year from top to bottom in the organization.

    For years the yankee’s having been borrowing from the future to try to win now. Now the tab is due and it’s not going to be pretty.

    It’ll take tremendous talent evaluation to get through this.

    And the organization still hasn’t show that capacity yet.

    I have been dissappointed that Cashman hasn’t brought in more talent evaluation people yet since renewing his deal.

    Lots to do this winter so perhaps it’s too early.

    But it has to happen. They need to develop a better network of evaluation – at the amateur, international, and pro level.

    But it’s difficult. This was an organization that for years almost had no organizational capacity other than writing checks.

    That takes time to change. How much is a reasonable amount is hard to say.

  126. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 11:56 am

    I’m sorry, but I don’t understand these attacks on Manny.

    I don’t mind them from Yankee fans, because Manny wore us out and I hated to see him come to the plate, but the fact that Red Sox fans criticize him astounds me. The production he gave the Sox is beyond compare.

    For a Sox fan to criticize Manny is just base ingratitude, IMHO.

  127. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 11:57 am

    P.S. yes you have to be impressed by Oppenheimer especially at the positions the Yankees have chosen thier talent.

  128. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 11:57 am

    “I doubt they sit around lamenting the fact that Hanley Ramirez is a Marlin. ”

    Maybe not but they wasted a lot of money on Julio Lugo. Beckett is great but Ramirez is better. I hate playing this hypothetical game but who knows maybe the Sox would have traded for Santana if they hadn’t traded for Beckett. That wouldn’t have helped for 2007 though.

    The Sox probably don’t regret trading for Beckett but I’m sure they regret giving up Ramirez to do so. They probably could have gotten a deal done with other prospects. Obviously this is all just speculation and hindsight, I’m just a huge Ramirez fan.

    I’m also a bit surprised that Boston isn’t going after Sabathia. Imagine a rotation of Beckett, Sabathia, Matsuzaka, Lester, Wakefield/Bucholz. Sabathia is a better fit than Teixeira.

  129. Kill.Schill(ing) November 26th, 2008 at 11:58 am

    Hey Ray, here’s a question for you, as a Sox fan.

    Why do Red Sox player divorces end with so much acrimony and why do the players who leave harbor so much malice toward the organization?

    1) Clemens (yes I realize Duquette made this decision)
    2) Garciaparra
    3) Damon
    4) Mienkieweicz
    5) Alan Embry

    And now, Manny. Don’t you think there’s a pattern here?

  130. DPF November 26th, 2008 at 11:59 am

    CB.

    Great post. Thanks for taking the time. Didn’t the Red Sox spend 10mm in draft signing bonuses for th efirst time in MLB history?

  131. mel November 26th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    Zolio,

    You’re right, the trades perfectly set up the opportunity for speculation.

    I hadn’t given it much thought, thinking it was cute how LeBron is toiling away in his hometown. Serving his sentence until he’s free to go where he really wants. But I’m seeing articles about how unfair he’s being to his team and fans. Blogs about how he’s not being a team leader. And even Barkley said LeBron should just shut up about it.

    But, I’d love for LeBron to be a distraction. Cleveland’s off to their best start in 20 years and they’re a very real threat.

  132. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    “Yes but I still don’t see any team that would WANT Lowell for $12 mil over 2 years.”

    A question we may want to revisit AFTER Casey Blake signs as an FA.

    It’ll come down to Lowell’s health moreso than his contract. Were he not under contract and healthy, he’d be by far the best 3B on the FA market and $12M for 2 years would not be all that big a stretch.

  133. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    “I’m not buying this “long-term flexibility” argument. What you want is wins, not flexibility. ”

    Did you not read my next paragraph explaining that Tex would help the team? Yes I agree with you, Mark Teixeira would help the Yankees.

    You guys are basically arguing that the Yankees should go sign Tex because the Sox might get him. As much as you guys don’t like it, Teixeira isn’t in the Yankees’ plans unless they fail to get Sabathia. If Cashman follows your plan and goes out and signs Teixeira to keep him away from the Red Sox it could turn out poorly for the Yankees. If NYY gets Sabathia and Teixeira it WILL hurt roster flexibility. We’d still have 2 open spots for starting pitchers and no money to fill those spots and we’d still have an empty bench.

    I’d love to have Tex on the team but I’d much rather have Sabathia. Unfortunately the Yankees DO have payroll limitations and can’t afford to sign both. In this case I’m glad they are choosing Sabathia over Teixeira.

    If Sabathia turns down the Yankees offer I will be all for getting Teixeira but I don’t think the Yanks can have both.

  134. ray (sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    Wave Your Hat
    November 26th, 2008 at 11:56 am
    “I’m sorry, but I don’t understand these attacks on Manny.”

    As a sox fan I definitely acknowledge that without Manny the Sox don’t have the two rings they have had the last few years.

    Nearly every baseball fan knows that manny is one of the most talented hitters in baseball. At the same time Sox cannot ignore the fact that manny just plain quit playing for them in order to get his own way. That is the issue I have with manny.

    If manny was on the Yankees, yankee fans would have the same issue with him if he quit on the team.

  135. CB November 26th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    “Didn’t the Red Sox spend 10mm in draft signing bonuses for th efirst time in MLB history?”

    I believe they did get into double figures.

    But the real story of this past draft was the Royals. I think they spent $11M. Believe that topped the sox and was the most.

    I think that’s the record for amount spent in a draft.

    Dayton Moore is a smart guy (though drafting Mike Moustakas over Matt Wieters is going to be something they may regret for decades…)

  136. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    Hey MLBTRADERUMORS has the A’s interested in Nick Johnson since Abreu is a no, why can’t Nick Johnson be out #3 hitter. I know the injuries but 7 seasons = .396 OBP…just saying he might be cheap and a suitable piece to start or play off the bench.

  137. Kill.Schill(ing) November 26th, 2008 at 12:04 pm

    It wouldn’t surprise me to see the Dodgers try to acquire Lowell, especially if the Red Sox agree to subsidize a portion of the contract.

    The Dodgers are currently missing a left-side to their infield. Furcal looks like he’s going to sign with the A’s, and Blake with the Twins.

  138. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 12:04 pm

    our* not out.

  139. Russell NY November 26th, 2008 at 12:04 pm

    “If manny was on the Yankees, yankee fans would have the same issue with him if he quit on the team.”

    Definitely. I would be furious. But the I don’t see Manny flat out punching anybody on the Yanks (Youkilis) and the racist crowds at Fenway probably added a bit to it.

  140. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

    “It’ll come down to Lowell’s health moreso than his contract.”

    Yeah I agree with that.

  141. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    ray, with the kind of numbers Manny put up while he was apparently “quitting,” I’d take 9 of those quitters in my lineup every day.

  142. ray (sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    Patrick
    November 26th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
    ray, with the kind of numbers Manny put up while he was apparently “quitting,” I’d take 9 of those quitters in my lineup every day.’

    The point I am making is that near the end of his time in boston manny was faking injuries so that he wasn’t even in the lineup! Would you like 9 of those quitters on your bench every day?

  143. ariel November 26th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    Boras well knows that the only potential big dollar home for Manny is the Bronx. The Dodgers will not pay anymore than the original offer, at most, and perhaps none at all if the McCourts have their way…as time moves on, the Manny Euphoria in LA is wearing off, and the McCourts are counting on that.

    If so, and “if” Teix remains unsigned, Boras may well be embedded in a conflict of interests situation that will be very difficult to resolve. If the Yankees sign Teix, there probably will be no home for Manny, and Boras’ gameplan is torpedoed. In the “perfect world” scenario for Boras (i) CC signs with the Angels, (ii) Teix with the Sawx, and (iii) the Yankees, without any other really big name alternative, take Manny…So look for Boras to steer Teix away from the Yankees in the next few weeks.

    You may not like it, but watch for it as this may be where the chips fall.

  144. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 26th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

    Brandon,

    I brought that idea up before, and everyone thinks its stupid since he was an “injury prone”.

  145. CB November 26th, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    “At the same time Sox cannot ignore the fact that manny just plain quit playing for them in order to get his own way. That is the issue I have with manny.”

    ray,

    I agree with this. What Manny did was ridiculous and inexcusable.

    That said – this year was simply not the first time he quit on the team. This was just the year Theo and Henry decided the cost-benefit ratio no longer was in their favor.

    One of the things I have found remarkable about the post-manny reaction is the idea that so many sox fans have voiced that basically amounts to, “My goodness. How didn’t we see what was happenning. How did we enable Manny for so long.”

    It’s as if it was so camoflaged, so opaque that no one could see Manny for who he was until the very end.

    He was always the same guy. He was the one who was consistent.

    And now these hand wringing, emotionally over charged mea culpa’s from Sox fans are just hard to stomach.

    This is a great example – an article I saw from the baseball analysts the other day from. He actually compares the Sox fans with regards to Manny as a form of the Stockholm Syndrome. Get this:

    “But it’s becoming clearer that for much of the seven-plus years Ramirez was in Boston, we as fans were Manny’s hostages. He pouted, lied to the press (and consequently to us), showed up late – or not at all – to All-Star Games and managerial meetings alike, refused to pinch hit when asked or even refused to play.

    He did this before the current ownership bought the team in 2001. He did it during the 2002 transition year before Theo Epstein was named general manager. And he did it nearly every season since Epstein took the reins in 2003. The incidents all became part of “Manny being Manny.”

    And while the Red Sox made some efforts to rid themselves of his shtick – placing him on waivers and nearly engineering his trade to the baseball wilderness of Texas being the most notorious – we as fans never seemed to fully believe the import of these stories.

    Moreso than even David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez was the face of the Red Sox, and we were happy with this scenario. At least I certainly was. Heck, there’s an orange-and-white feline with an attitude that stalks my house and answers – when he feels like it – to “Manny.”

    How did we let this man fool us so? ”

    I can’t believe someone would seriously write something so self-indulgent.

    Seriously? This is laughable. And this is hardly an exception. Peter Gammons reaction was very similar. How could we have been fooled for so long….

    So it’s not that Manny isn’t a louse – he is. But this hand wringing, pseudo-self flagellation that so many sox fans have engaged in is a bit much.

  146. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    ray, you know better than anyone that Manny took time off every season with bogus injuries.

  147. CB November 26th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    sorry meant to post the link to that article about manny…

    http://baseballanalysts.com/ar.....ed_hitter/

  148. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    “I’d take 9 of those quitters in my lineup every day.”

    With young players being the target for the future I’d rather not have Manny’s lack of work ethic and faking injuries on my team. All you have to look to is MSG w/ Stephon Marbury, how those years worked out, immensely talented but his attitude wears on you, GI Joe would have brawls w/ him in that locker room let him pull one of those stunts w/ Georgy I guarantee you Bronx Zoo is the title the next day.

  149. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    With respect to Yankee drafts, I would welcome an argument that they have had even one good draft, but I don’t think they have. Yes, in 2006 they drafted Joba, and in 2004 they drafted Hughes, but 2004 was a disaster otherwise and 2006 was at best mediocre, thanks to Kennedy being in that draft as well. 2008 is generally acknowledged as a disaster, and the jury is out on 2007. We haven’t had even a decent draft since Stick’s day.

    Our drafts are full of guys who never were, like CJ Henry or Jonathon Poterson. You’ll need to look up Poterson, I’m sure. To give the Yanks passing grades even recently, you need to assume that all of Jackson, Montero, Betances, Kennedy AND some others will make and stick in the majors, which is far from a sure thing.

    I just don’t see the percentages in depending on the Yanks’ building from the draft. I admit it would be great if they did, and I hope they can, but I don’t think they will.

  150. mel November 26th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    ray,

    Why didn’t Boston trade Manny earlier? He asked year after year after year. I understand his contract was very large, but I’m pretty sure the Yankees would’ve loved to help the Red Sox unload it. ;)

    Manny got paid to deliver 2 championships, the Red Sox got awesome production that can’t be erased by one at-bat against Mariano Rivera. At some point it got ugly, but I have no doubt that the Sox, Manny, and Boras were all culpable.

    It’s rather unfair of the fans to let an ugly divorce overshadow what Manny did for Boston over the years.

  151. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    Brandon, I’m not saying I want 9 Manny’s on the Yankees. I don’t even want 1 Manny on the Yankees. I was just pointing out that Manny really didn’t quit on the Sox. The Sox quit on him. He was still raking when they traded him and pulling his usual BS. Its just that this time the Red Sox and their fans are acting like this is new behavior.

  152. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 12:20 pm

    “Why didn’t Boston trade Manny earlier? He asked year after year after year. I understand his contract was very large, but I’m pretty sure the Yankees would’ve loved to help the Red Sox unload it.”

    If the Yankees were at all interested in doing so, they would have picked him and his contract up off of waivers for free. They chose not to.

  153. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 12:20 pm

    “I brought that idea up before, and everyone thinks its stupid since he was an “injury prone”.”

    and thats partly true. Nick Johnson could be an excellent low-cost risk, but you simply cannot pencil him in the lineup everyday from Day 1, because you have no clue what to expect from him in terms of his health and thus production levels.

  154. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    WYH, 2007 was a great draft. 2006 was a good draft. How can you say Kennedy makes 2006 a bad draft? He made it to the majors in less than 1 season. I just don’t that people give up on Kennedy so fast.

  155. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    I would love to get Nick Johnson back-at the right price. When he is healthy-which he never is-he is very good.

  156. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    Patrick he quit on them after they tried to enforce him. You can’t let a loon loose on a fragile team day after day you start hating playing w/ that guy. The only thing that saved Manny was how he and Demarlo Hale and Lugo and Papi had a bond but lets just say even that was wearing out.

  157. AROD fan November 26th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    Pettite owes the Yankees for profiting from his PED use and then proclaiming themselves his savior?

  158. ray (sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 12:24 pm

    “At some point it got ugly, but I have no doubt that the Sox, Manny, and Boras were all culpable”

    mel and cb,

    I entirely agree that the FO of the Sox and the fans share some significant responsibility for how things turned out with manny and boston.

    I probably should just let this go, lol, as I have posted on this subject a number of times. This time I reacted to the post that said the Sox “abused” manny, which I found a bit comical.

  159. CB November 26th, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    “With respect to Yankee drafts, I would welcome an argument that they have had even one good draft, but I don’t think they have.”

    2006 was a phenomenal draft. There’s no way around that. Go back and look to see how they took.

    Baseball drafts are a crap shoot – all organizatons have their CJ Henry’s.

    What you want to avoid are drafts that produce nothing – no future major leaguers and no prospects.

    If a draft produces even one player that makes your major league roster and a couple of other decent prospects that’s a fairly successful draft.

    But I agree – 2005 wasn’t great. And 2007 is still up in the air (though I’m encouraged by Brackman and Austin Romine…) 2008 well that’s an awful one regardless of the outcome as its process was so flawed.

    But go back and look at the yankess full 2006 draft. It was very strong. They drafted more good pitching prospects in that draft alone than many organizations have in their entire systems.

  160. mel November 26th, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    Fredo,

    Great point that was somewhere in the recesses of my brain!

    I still don’t think Manny’s a horrible person.

    To hear Boston and their fans, they act as if they wish they never met the guy. But I’m pretty sure he was a heavy contributor in their championship seasons. Would they take back his signing? I don’t think so.

  161. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    Patrick-

    If the choice must be between CC and Teixeira, I (like you) would choose CC. Not to preserve roster flexibility, but because I expect that CC will give us more net wins than Teixeira.

    However, until the Yanks actually pass on Teixeira, I am not going to quit arguing that the Yanks should get Teixeira. After CC, Teixeira will give the Yanks more net wins than any other player available.

    In other words, I think CC and Teixeira will give us more wins than any other combination for the price. The possibility that Cashman doesn’t think so, or appears not to think so based on reports we read, isn’t relevant to my argument. Obviously, it’s relevant to what the Yanks do, but not to the argument.

    With respect to the drafts, we don’t know yet about 2007. Until a few of those guys actually succeed in the majors, we won’t know. Like you, I hope they do, but the jury is still out. With respect to 2006, I give them credit for Kennedy and obviously Joba. Who else?

  162. Mike A. November 26th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

    “2006 was at best mediocre”

    Uh … what? Besides Kennedy and Joba, they landed McAllister, Betances, Melancon, Robertson, McCutchen and Russo in that draft. If you think that’s “at best mediocre,” you have issues with expectations.

    http://tinyurl.com/5gjylt

  163. SJ44 November 26th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

    OYF,

    I wouldn’t touch Sheets unless his MRI is clean and you are only into him for 2 years. He’s a much bigger injury risk (especially with his current injury) than Burnett.

    If his MRI is clean, or clean enough that you can work a deal with him (after signing CC), here is what I would do:

    Sign Sheets to a 2 year deal.

    Let Pettitte walk.

    Sign Tex.

    If you work the numbers properly, you could still keep the payroll at around 190 and work everybody into the equation.

    The rotation would be: Wang, CC, Joba, Sheets, and either a non-tender pickup or Hughes.

    Shaky? Perhaps. But, it would mean committing approx. 60 million to the 3 guys, instead of 58 million, if you signed CC, Burnett and Pettitte.

    CC and Tex for only 2 million more than Burnett, CC and Pettitte? You get younger, more athletic, and better, IMO.

    Just some food for thought.

    Pettitte has a house in Westchester County, as well as his ranch in Texas. His wife loves their house in NY.

    He ain’t goin’ to LA.

    Don’t bite on every story that hits the ‘net.

    Frank McCourt isn’t committing big dollars for Andy Pettitte. Just not happening.

  164. Glenn November 26th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

    With the ecomony being what it is, Boston is in no position to eat salaries of Lowell, Lugo, Drew, or a declining Ortiz.
    Between them they have salaries annually totaling $47.5 through 2010 with Drew’s salary going through 2011.
    John Henry would swallow real hard not to mention his flailing hedge funds hanging in the air.
    All money saved on Manny Ramirez will be doled out to Youkilis, Papelbon, Pedroia, and to some degree, Lester to keep them somewhat happy.
    Fiscal sanity is coming to call in Boston.

  165. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

    “then he wants his contract honored”

    His contract was honored by Boston. It was Ramirez himself who didn’t honor it.

  166. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 26th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

    TTT (tom, turntwo)

    how about NJ for bench for now? probably that way he could stay healthy that way.

  167. CB November 26th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    ray,

    I agree – don’t mean to give you a hard time. Manny has been beaten to death as a subject.

    I think i was just compelled to write that as I had just read that article.

    Manny clearly quit on the sox. But the idea that Sox fans were so passive as to be “held hostage” by Manny in some Stockholm Syndrome type phenomenon is just amazing. And while extreme it was far from an infrequent sentiment.

    But you shouldn’t be responsible for speaking on behalf of millions of people, particularly on a subject that has been over analyzed enough already.

  168. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

    CB,

    Actually, I looked at the 2006 draft before I wrote my comment. So far, it’s only Chamberlain. Granted, Kennedy, Betances and Melancon may become major leaguers, but how good? Maybe good, maybe not. Who else has big upside?

  169. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    2006 draft

    Ian Kennedy
    Joba Chamberlain
    Zachary McAllister
    Dellin Betances
    Mark Melancon
    Daniel McCutchen
    George Kontos
    David Robertson

    That’s a great haul.

  170. GreenBeret7 November 26th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    I’m sorry, but, Nick Johnson has never been able to stay healthy two years in a row. Not omly that, but, his defense was never that impressive. The big issue was digging low throws out of the dirt. He had an annoying habit of short-arming the low throws.

  171. saucY November 26th, 2008 at 12:30 pm

    ugh, half day today. just stopping in.

    the pettitte/dodgers/joe headline on espn last night kind of shocked me. but read some comments here and i’m now more calm.

    mel, i agree. the lebron coverage has been insane. the basketball season just started for crying out loud.

    looking forward to food and booze tomorrow. and i’m hoping the weather is good friday so we can make it to the HOF! :)

  172. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

    I hear ya GB. Johnson averages 87 games played a season.

  173. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

    SJ44, I like your thinking, but aren’t you closer to $200MM than $190MM? How much per year are you thinking Sheets will get?

  174. ray (sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

    ray,

    “I agree – don’t mean to give you a hard time. Manny has been beaten to death as a subject.”

    CB, I didn’t feel at all like you were giving me a hard time.

    I enjoy reading your posts.

  175. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

    “he wanted his year or 2 years guaranteed by the team. that’s not too much to ask for considering what he did for them.”

    Those were the terms of his contract. He got paid $20M per season for what he did for them.

  176. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 26th, 2008 at 12:35 pm

    Tom.

    2006 would had been an injury free season for him, but the Mets had to cause a collison. so yeah, blame the Mets. lol, seriously it would had been.

  177. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    “he wanted his year or 2 years guaranteed by the team. that’s not too much to ask for considering what he did for them.”
    ———————————————

    What lie is this he didn’t want 2 yrs. he wanted more than 2 yrs. probably 5 – 6 yrs. and he made sure in the offseason he sent them a message by firing agent 1 to sign Boras, his protest went as far as to tanking an AB vs Mariano Rivera in a playoff atmosphere game in NY. I’m sorry but you don’t know Manny at all, you don’t live or never have lived in Washington Heights from what I’m reading, talented Yes, great hitter Yes, but w/o a fault ? not a quitter ? not vindictive, not near babyish…We’ll agree to disagree.

  178. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    OK, 2006 was good. See, I’m not proud.

  179. saucY November 26th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

    “Joe Buck …His call of David Tyrees catch was pitiful ”

    absolutely. still have that on tivo. worst guy ever!

  180. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    Throw in the fact that Jesús Montero was signed in 2006 as well.

  181. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

    “Frank McCourt isn’t committing big dollars for Andy Pettitte. Just not happening.”

    SJ, problem with that is it isnt big money (just a one year deal) and you still havent explained who they have in the rotation next season to rule out the reported interest the Dodgers may have in Andy.

  182. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 26th, 2008 at 12:44 pm

    wow, how **dumb** can Minya be?

    “Yesterday Joel Sherman said the Mets balked at the idea of swapping Heilman and Pedro Feliciano for Huston Street.”

    http://blogs.nypost.com/sports.....eet_h.html

    ..if the Rockies wants 2 of your bad pitchers for Street, you take it.

  183. CB November 26th, 2008 at 12:45 pm

    “Maybe good, maybe not. Who else has big upside?”

    Wave,

    You’re just way off here. I think you’re misinterpreting the 2006 draft to fit your larger argument (which as I wrote before is reasonable).

    Either that or as Mike wrote above you have wildly outsized expectations.

    Drafts in baseball are not simply about getting players onto the major league roster.

    They are about acquiring high quality prospects first and foremost. Prospects whom you hope will turn into major leaguers but also ones that will be serve as potential trade chips and useful organization guys. All of those things are endpoints for a draft. They are not all of equal importance – but they are all important.

    Go back and look at how many players drafted in 2006 have even played professional baseball so far.

    The sox have had one player on their major league roster from the 06 draft – Masterson.

    Of the 44 picks in the first round/ supplemental round draft only 10 players have played in the pros. Of those 10 two were Kennedy and Joba.

    In addition to Joba and Kennedy the yanks also have had Dave Robertson come up to play in the majors.

    Its simply unrealistic to evaluate a draft two years later based on how many players are contributing at the major league level. That’s completely unrealistic.

    From that 2006 draft they got Kennedy, Chamberlain, McCallister, Betances, Melancon, Robertson, Dan McCutchen, George Kontos, Tim Norton, Kevin Russo and collin curtis.

    They already used McCutchen as a trade piece. Kontos could also be a nice guy in a trade. These are part of what you have to look at when you evaluate the draft.

    Knock the other years if you want but its impossible to knock 2006.

  184. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

    “..if the Rockies wants 2 of your bad pitchers for Street, you take it.”

    especially when they were two of the biggest reasons for the bullpen collapse, and one of them has already said he basically is refusing to pitch in the Mets bullpen next year because he wants to be a start.

  185. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

    “Joe Buck …His call of David Tyrees catch was pitiful”

    That had to be the saddest call I ever heard in my life, if I ever see Joe Buck I’ll punch him in his face and remind him about that call. Literally IDK how many people saw that play and didn’t curse out at the t.v. not w/ the call that came waaaaaaaaay later probably 2 days after, but w/ the catch that Tyree made.

    “Who knows if Manny tanked an at bat. I certainly dont.”

    I’d be lieing if I said that.

  186. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 12:47 pm

    Green Ellis:

    I understand what he wanted, and under the terms of his contract he wasn’t entitled to it. He knew that when he signed the deal yet pulled his BS anyway. I know the man can hit, but he’s of low rent character and I wouldn’t want that anywhere near the Yankees.

    Further, I think he may have been more interested in getting an extension as opposed to the option years picked up. As part of the trade, he demanded his option years NOT be picked up so as to enter free agency. Undoubtedly Boras, who makes nada under Ramirez’s previous contract, engineered this to a degree.

  187. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    I’d even bet that Tyree’s catch set off world wide potty mouths everywhere. I mean think about it frustrated Pats fans, NFL fans that had money on the game, NFL fans period and Giants fans biting thier nails for the last hope.

  188. GreenBeret7 November 26th, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    green ellis
    November 26th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
    brandon,

    i agree with all the negatives about him, but again, can we believe everything we read or hear from the media, take for example pete abr8ham. Does he always tell the truth? NO. He spins things certain ways because of who he is, a nonYankees fan or Red Sox fan. Who knows if Manny tanked an at bat. I certainly dont.

    ———————————————————-

    Ramirez literally never took the bat off of his shoulder on 3 pitches down the middle against Rivera. What happened? Did Rivera quick-pitch him?

    For nearly 8 years the Boston front office, managers, coaches, players, media and fans giggled about it just was “Manny being Manny”. Not bad…it only took 8 years for somebody to say somehing.

    You and others want Ramirez on the Yankees, but, want Cano traded for much less egregious transgressions than any one of Ramirez’ antics.

  189. ariel November 26th, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    As the Free Agency clocks ticks and ticks, the Media’s gravitas of Manny in Pinstripes increases exponentially. Graziano has an interesting assessment (keeping in mind that it is his opinion only).http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....for_s.html

  190. ariel November 26th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

    ***correction***

    “As the Free Agency clock ticks and ticks,”

  191. Jerry from Queens November 26th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

    The Yankees 2007 and 2008 drafts does not measure up to the 2006 draft. Especially the 2008 draft with the lost of Cole. Yankees must focus on the high ceiling talents.

  192. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

    “As the Free Agency clocks ticks and ticks, the Media’s gravitas of Manny in Pinstripes increases exponentially.”

    How many times does Cashman have to say No. For people to understand that’s not what he’s going to do.

  193. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

    “You and others want Ramirez on the Yankees, but, want Cano traded for much less egregious transgressions than any one of Ramirez’ antics.”

    Oh no he didn’t go there … :lol:

  194. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 12:57 pm

    “How many times does Cashman have to say No.”

    i know its prob been said numerous times already, but he also said that Bubba Crosby was going to be the everyday starting CF, too.

  195. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 12:58 pm

    “I mean think about it frustrated Pats fans, NFL fans that had money on the game,”

    Doubt Tyree’s catch had any bearing on the point spread winner (It was Giants, whether they won the game outright or not) or total (it was going under, no matter what). That said, if that was not one of the Top 5 most frustrating fan experiences ever for the fans of one team, I honestly can’t imagine what one would look like. Just brutal. Not only that catch, but the way their team, which had easily the best regular season in the history of the game, was so thoroughly pushed around by the Giants.

    That said, much as it pains me to say so as a Skins fan, the right team that won that game.

  196. mel November 26th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

    Tazawa reportedly picks the Sox.

    http://www.sportingnews.com/yo.....p?t=490702

    This is a good thing, right? A 22 yr. old kid that’s never pitched professionally? Is closer to 90 than 100 on the radar?

  197. Bronx Jeers November 26th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    1. Yanks buy Pettite’s house in buyers market and offer him 7-8 mil for 1 yr.

    2. Pettite and family “squat” in ARod’s old apartment. Yanks pay rent on ARod’s west side “Madge-Pad”. Pettite and kin get to play Park Ave high rollers for a year before departing for the sticks of Houston.

    3. Offer CC Pettite’s house as bonus.

    If only Costanza was still working in the Bronx!

  198. mel November 26th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    And until the ink is dried on all the major players in free agency, anything can and will happen.

  199. GreenBeret7 November 26th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

    Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
    November 26th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
    “You and others want Ramirez on the Yankees, but, want Cano traded for much less egregious transgressions than any one of Ramirez’ antics.”

    Oh no he didn’t go there …

    ———————————————————–

    As long as Cashman doesn’t go there. I’d rathr take my chances with Matsui staying healthy. At least you know you’ll get everything he’s got when he plays, and that’s not bad.

    If NYY fans on Teixeira, maybe they can swinga three way deal and get Aubrey Huff to play first base and put Swisher in right field. Huff isn’t the idal defensive first baeman, but, he can hit, and he can play more than one position.

  200. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 1:02 pm

    CB-

    I stand corrected on 2006. I think I admitted that earlier but I will do so again. However, if the Yanks take three free agent pitchers, and having signed Marte for three years, where do all those ’06 pitchers go?

    However, I don’t think the other years have been good. Despite Hughes, 2004 in particular burns me. We had 4 of the first 41 picks that year. I don’t recognize anyone but Hughes in that whole draft. 2005 had Austin Jackson, and some prospects like Gardner, Cox and Horne, but overall, IMO, not a great draft. In 2007, I haven’t imbibed the Brackman Kool-Aid yet. The jury’s out. If he doesn’t work out, it could be awful. Before 2004, not much.

    So overall, I don’t think the Yanks have distinguished themselves in the draft. I just don’t think we should count on the Yanks doing so in the future, although I of course hope the Yanks do so, as its the only way to keep the payroll under control long term.

  201. vinny-b *Behold the sword of Urlacher* November 26th, 2008 at 1:02 pm

    CC not on his way to the bronx? Beginning to believe it.

    I don’t want Tex. period. If we don’t get CC, i would prefer to pocket the money (for next off-season)

    if NYY insist on landing a premire FA (in place of Tex) then sign Manny. I would rather stand pat, however i prefer Manny’s short-term bat, over 8 yrs of Tex.

  202. vinny-b *Behold the sword of Urlacher* November 26th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

    *(in place of CC)*

  203. GreenBeret7 November 26th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

    Correction: ***ideal defensive***

  204. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 26th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

    ..meanwhile, the Sox signed Billy Traber to a minor league deal.

    http://soxprospects.blogspot.c.....h-and.html

  205. mel November 26th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

    Looking at Cano’s winter stats and was shocked to find he stole a bag. I don’t recall him doing it in the majors. Anyone remember a time that was a straight steal?

  206. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    “..meanwhile, the Sox signed Billy Traber to a minor league deal.”

    thats good news for the Yankees.

  207. ariel November 26th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

    Brandon,

    First, do not be deluded or deceived by the gamesmanship that takes place especially at this time of year. Don’t believe anything you read or hear, other than an actual signing.

    Second,If you choose to believe, why selectively exclude Hank’s comments about making Manny an offer?…”not now, perhaps later”.

    Third, Cashman, to my knowledge, never addressed Manny…all he said was that it would be rediculous to sign both a CC and a Teix at those numbers being asked for…Manny was not mentioned, at least in the articles I read.

    Fourth, again, if you choose to believe what you read or hear, why summarily dismiss Girardi’s response, when asked about Manny at the Torre affair….”who wouldn’t want him in their lineup, he’s a HOP hitter”.

    In my view, I subscribe to one above…I don’t believe anything I read or hear other than word from the organization that someone has signed on the dotted line. I also do not allow my own views on morality, personal conduct and the like to enter into the decision-making process as to whether something will or will not happen. Perhaps it is due to my many years negotiating personal service and transactional agreements that guide my judgment calls.

    An objective assessment tells me that there is a most reasonable chance Manny will be a Yankee come the end of FA season. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant.

    Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

  208. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    “thats good news for the Yankees.”

    Yeah, the SWB Yankees.

  209. CB November 26th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    “However, if the Yanks take three free agent pitchers, and having signed Marte for three years, where do all those ‘06 pitchers go?”

    They’ll trade the prospects or trade the guys they signed in the rotation.

    Everyone needs pitching. Say on the off hand they sign AJ to a 4 year deal and he stays healthy for the first 2 while McCallister continues to develop.

    They could trade AJ potentially or trade McCallister for position players.

    The areas they most need are outfielders and middle infielders (especially short stops).

    Pitching will get the most back. If McCallister has a good AA season then I think he’ll start to become a very valuable trade piece if they choose to go that route.

    Regarding the 2004 draft – before Oppenheimer/ Cashman were running the draft so throw it out.

    2005 – was just ok. Not great. But not terrible.

    2007 – still way too early to tell. If Brackman pans out (which is still a considerable if) he alone would make that a great draft.

    That’s another way of looking at the 2006 draft – they drafted Joba who clearly has the talent to be a #1 starter. That alone makes it a good draft.

    Brackman was throwing in the high 90′s in hawaii. Good first step. He alone would make that a good draft if he pans out. He’s another #1 starter.

    Another way to look at the recent drafts is this. It’s been years since they had a legit #1, shut down ACE. That’s their eternal need.

    2004 they get hughes who goes on to be the top prospect in the whole game and is thought by most to be a future #2 or #1. 2006 they get Joba – clearly future #1 if healthy. They also draft Betances – potential to be a #1 (though lots of uncertainty there). Brackman – potential #1. Cole – potentila #1 and of course doesn’t sign.

    There’s a pattern there. They are trying to take guys who could be #1′s/ #2′s each year.

    Hasn’t worked well – but they are trying to build a staff internally through probability.

  210. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

    go after pitching even if CC signs elsewhere. I mean a run saved is at least as valuable as a run scored, right?

  211. ariel November 26th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    ****correction*****

    Fourth, again, if you choose to believe what you read or hear, why summarily dismiss Girardi’s response, when asked about Manny at the Torre affair….”who wouldn’t want him in their lineup, he’s a HOF hitter”.

  212. mel November 26th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

    IPK had a great outing yesterday.

    Check out who his battery mate was and who got the save.

    http://www.mlb.com/milb/stats/.....n_maywin_1

  213. E-Man November 26th, 2008 at 1:20 pm

    ah the Girardi factor strikes again.

    Who wants to play for a manager who’s clueless?

    apparently not CC after being offered a MONSTER contract.. Pettitte now talking to TORRE.. interesting stuff.

  214. mel November 26th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    E-man,

    HaHa. Yes, CC’s going to leave $40M on the table because he can’t eat candy in the clubhouse. Pretty sure he could buy a nice chunk of Mars/M&M with that $40M.

    Pettitte wants to follow Torre? Is Torre the pied piper leading the rats out of town?

  215. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

    Mel:

    Don’t feed the animals.

  216. GreenBeret7 November 26th, 2008 at 1:30 pm

    mel
    November 26th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
    IPK had a great outing yesterday.

    Check out who his battery mate was and who got the save.

    ————————————————————

    Albaladejo has put up really nice numbers in his 5 games. He could either go in a trade or, better still replace Veras, who goes in a trade.

  217. YankeesLuv November 26th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

    Pete,
    Trying to bring up the Jeter/Arod drama again…yawn.

    Dude, I thought you were on vacation? I know this blog is like crack, hard to stay away. ;)

  218. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    “If the choice must be between CC and Teixeira, I (like you) would choose CC. Not to preserve roster flexibility, but because I expect that CC will give us more net wins than Teixeira. ”

    You misunderstood my argument WYH. I want CC over Teixeira for a few reasons. First of all, I think he’s a more valuable player – like you said, he will give us more net wins. Secondly, a true #1 starting pitcher is a lot more valuable than a very good 1B. Its so incredibly rare that a true ace hits the open market.

    My argument about flexibility is against getting BOTH Tex and CC. I think its pretty likely that Cashman means what he says about keeping the payroll around 180 this year. If he signs both Tex and Sabathia he can’t afford to fill other gaping holes.

    If Cashman signs Sabathia he still has tons of money to go out and get a couple great bench players and 2 more very good starting pitchers. If he signs Sabathia and Teixeira there won’t be much money left for 2 very good starting pitchers and a good bench.

  219. LibertyBoyNYC November 26th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    CC will stay in the NL, where he hasn’t been scouted, and pad his numbers. A short contract, 2 years or so, will set him up for free agency in 2010. For those of you lamenting that he seems to be floating away from our beloved Yankees, go mull his postseason stats, and THEN try to convince me that he’s “what we need”.

  220. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    “There’s a pattern there. They are trying to take guys who could be #1’s/ #2’s each year.

    Hasn’t worked well – but they are trying to build a staff internally through probability.”

    That’s my point – overall it hasn’t worked well. Cole didn’t sign. To my mind, that seems like a colossal failure of organizational due diligence. Drafting him was rolling the dice. Brackman they drafted on no innings pitched. Another colossal roll of the dice. Betances, who knows? Maybe he’ll turn out to be a middle reliever.

    So far, out of 2004 to present, major league ready, we have one superstar and one potential very good pitcher (who everyone here believes needs another year of AAA :seasoning”) to show for it.

    You’re right. We need outfielders and middle infielders. Have they drafted them? No. Have they traded for them? Not yet. What young offensive talent have we traded for? Are you confident they will? Where are the kids we should have drafted in 2003- 2006 who should be providing us our bench?

    I’m kind of grumpy about it.

  221. mel November 26th, 2008 at 1:36 pm

    GB7,

    I wasn’t too impressed w/ J-Alba when he first came over. Maybe he was hindered by an injury? But he seems to have it going. Is his control better than Veras? At any rate, Jonathan’s probably catching the attention of some other teams. He’s definitely better than Billy Traber. :)

    Who did we trade to get Albaladejo? It wasn’t Nieves was it?

  222. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    “Who did we trade to get Albaladejo? It wasn’t Nieves was it?”

    wasnt it Tyler Clippard?

  223. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    Tyler Clippard, Mel.

  224. GreenBeret7 November 26th, 2008 at 1:41 pm

    mel
    November 26th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
    GB7,

    I wasn’t too impressed w/ J-Alba when he first came over. Maybe he was hindered by an injury? But he seems to have it going. Is his control better than Veras? At any rate, Jonathan’s probably catching the attention of some other teams. He’s definitely better than Billy Traber.

    Who did we trade to get Albaladejo? It wasn’t Nieves was it?

    ———————————————————–

    Clippard, I believe, Mel.

  225. CB November 26th, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    “That’s my point – overall it hasn’t worked well.”

    Far too early to come to that conclusion. That’s just not the way baseball drafts work, especially for young pitchers.

    You could argue that if Joba alone goes on to be a true #1 then picking all of these pitchers, regardless of how many don’t pan out, was a worthwhile strategy.

    I do think the probability approach is the right one. Joba could be something special. At minimum Hughes will be a solid rotation guy. I think Melancon could be terrific in the pen and I think McCallister will be a good big league pitcher (his floor is pretty high – good stuff, induces on ground ball after another, get’s k’s, doesn’t walk anyone…).

    It’s just too early.

    On the flip side the probability approach suggests they should sign Tex… Position players are scarce…

  226. mel November 26th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    Thanks, guys.

    Much quicker than finding it myself. :)

    Rosenthal thinks Tex will be the first big free agent to sign.

    What do you guys think? I thought it would be CC, but he might be waiting for, you know, offers.

    I thought that AJ would be a quick sign, too.

    But it’s all relative. The longer CC takes, the more I think AJ will sign first.

  227. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    “On the flip side the probability approach suggests they should sign Tex… Position players are scarce…”

    Well I’m with you there.

  228. GreenBeret7 November 26th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    mel
    November 26th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
    GB7,

    I wasn’t too impressed w/ J-Alba when he first came over. Maybe he was hindered by an injury? But he seems to have it going. Is his control better than Veras? At any rate, Jonathan’s probably catching the attention of some other teams. He’s definitely better than Billy Traber.

    ———————————————————–

    Hard to believe that he was released by the Pirates. He had pretty decent numbers as a starter for them in the minors.

  229. CB November 26th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

    “If Cashman signs Sabathia he still has tons of money to go out and get a couple great bench players and 2 more very good starting pitchers. If he signs Sabathia and Teixeira there won’t be much money left for 2 very good starting pitchers and a good bench.”

    This is a good summary of the different ways the yankees can allocate resources.

    Which route is the better way is tough to say given that they could use more offense and that the “2 very good starting pitchers” involve candidates that are at high risk not to throw 200 innings in a season.

    That’s the major problem, IMO.

    Paying for AJ or Sheets could be money completely wasted.

  230. raymagnetic November 26th, 2008 at 1:47 pm

    Could someone riddle me something?

    When was the last time this current Red Sox organization signed a player for 8 to 10 years at 20+ mil per year?

    Oh that’s right, they’ve never done it and suddenly they’re going to do it for a 1B not named Albert Pujols, who isn’t even in the same stratosphere as Pujols?

    No, they’re not going to do it, no way no how.

    Anyone who thinks the Yankees will not drive up the price ridiculously if Boston seems interested in signing Tex is crazy.

  231. LibertyBoyNYC November 26th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    I agree with you ray, Tex and CC are media lightening rods but they won’t get the limo treatment from the AL East.

  232. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 1:52 pm

    “When was the last time this current Red Sox organization signed a player for 8 to 10 years at 20+ mil per year?”

    When’s the last time someone on the market was close to being worth it?

  233. CB November 26th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    “When was the last time this current Red Sox organization signed a player for 8 to 10 years at 20+ mil per year?”

    Manny. 8 yrs/160M.

    Theo’s never signed a anyone to that kind of deal but you could argue that now that Manny’s off the books the red sox can more easily afford to do that if they choose.

    I don’t think it’s money that will or won’t stop the sox from signing Tex. It would be more about organizational priorities and the talent at hand.

    But yes, the yankees should force Tex’s price to go north of $200M if the Sox have really decided he is a player they must have and are willing to overturn much of the organization for.

    Last year Sox fans were convinced the interest in Johan was sincere. This year not a chirp about CC who could be had for money at all.

    The sox were clearly just trying to drive up the price on Santana. The yanks should return the favor if they aren’t able to sign tex themselves.

  234. raymagnetic November 26th, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    “How about the way they visciously honored his contract, something Ramirez himself was unwilling to do? ”

    If by posting ridiculous numbers during his time with the Red Sox is not honoring his contract then I have to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly.

  235. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    “Paying for AJ or Sheets could be money completely wasted. ”

    Yeah that’s a pretty scary prospect.

  236. LibertyBoyNYC November 26th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

    tex isn’t manny. manny drives a lineup into the playoffs, or whacks the 86-year-old goat in the hindquarters. tex just ain’t that.

  237. CB November 26th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

    “Yeah that’s a pretty scary prospect.”

    AJ + Ty Wigginton = Tex

    Which do you choose (this of course assumes they have a fixed budget)? Which makes the team better?

    That’s roughly what the salaries would break down to on a one year basis.

    Which do you choose, especially in the context of betting on AJ staying healthy/ productive for 4-5 years vs. Tex for 8-10.

  238. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    “If by posting ridiculous numbers during his time with the Red Sox is not honoring his contract then I have to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly.”

    Was thinking more along the lines of taking plays off, taking days off, and once taking a month off, feigning injury, pushing senior citizens around and stuff like that. More importantly, I’m talking about knowingly signing up for team option years then pissing and moaning about them when they come up. That’s what he did.

  239. raymagnetic November 26th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    “Manny. 8 yrs/160M.”

    Manny signed in the winter of 2000, and John Henry bought the team in the winter of 2001, no?

  240. mel November 26th, 2008 at 2:01 pm

    Tex is no Manny, but did Boston know that Manny would be Manny? One of the best RH hitters in history?

  241. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    “Which do you choose (this of course assumes they have a fixed budget)? Which makes the team better? ”

    AJ vs Hughes
    Wiggington vs Ransom
    Swisher vs Teixeira

    I think Aj and Wiggington helps the team more when you consider who would take their place if Tex were signed.

  242. raymagnetic November 26th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    “Was thinking more along the lines of taking plays off, taking days off, and once taking a month off, feigning injury, pushing senior citizens around and stuff like that. More importantly, I’m talking about knowingly signing up for team option years then pissing and moaning about them when they come up. That’s what he did.”

    What about the previous years? Or do we forget about the numbers he put up even after they placed him on irrevocable waivers?

    He hated playing there and still put up historic numbers for them.

    They allowed him to be Manny and then got fed up with it. It isn’t his fault they enabled him all these years. They also didn’t have to trade him. He couldn’t force their hand to do anything. They traded him because they felt they had to trade him.

    I doubt they’re regretting the 2 rings the team won while he was a gigantic part of their lineup.

  243. CB November 26th, 2008 at 2:04 pm

    “If by posting ridiculous numbers during his time with the Red Sox is not honoring his contract then I have to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly.”

    Not to open up a can of worms again… but these two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

    In fact Manny did do both. He produced outrageous numbers while also not honoring his contract.

    He put up around a .900 OPS with the sox and also lied to the organization and refused to play. He embarrassed the entire organization by looking at three pitches against Mo just to prove his point.

    In short, he produced enough to make sure another team would be interested in him and still see him as a superstar but flaked on his contract enough to get the Sox to dump him.

    He hit the sweet spot of selfishness perfectly.

    This actually isn’t that unheard of in sports.

    There’s a reason why Randy Moss, probably the most talented player at his position in history, is now on his third team. Look back at what he did on the Vikings.

  244. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

    “Which do you choose, especially in the context of betting on AJ staying healthy/ productive for 4-5 years vs. Tex for 8-10.”

    Tex, for 8-10.

  245. CB November 26th, 2008 at 2:07 pm

    “Manny signed in the winter of 2000, and John Henry bought the team in the winter of 2001, no?”

    I think i mentioned that. Yes that was before Theo and of course before Henry.

    But if they had the organizational capacity to sign someone to that contract then – they clearly have it now, in spades. They have much more revenue now and they own their own cable network.

    On top of that they have $40M coming off the books.

    Money is not an issue for them. The yankees would have to start moving into the 10yr/$250M range to break the Sox price elasticity for Tex if the Sox really have their heart set on him.

  246. LibertyBoyNYC November 26th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

    Look at Manny’s numbers versus some of the better pitchers in his career. Just skimming through the “vs. pitcher” Yahoo page, it looks like the key to Manny owning you is simply him seeing you more than 10 times. He slugs 1.286, and is 12-21 versus CC Sabathia, for instance.

  247. raymagnetic November 26th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    “CB,

    Actually, I looked at the 2006 draft before I wrote my comment. So far, it’s only Chamberlain. Granted, Kennedy, Betances and Melancon may become major leaguers, but how good? Maybe good, maybe not. Who else has big upside?”

    WYH,

    I take it you’ve just started watching baseball in 2007? You have absolutely, positively, no earthly idea what you are talking about.

  248. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    “What about the previous years? Or do we forget about the numbers he put up even after they placed him on irrevocable waivers?”

    Agreed Ray, but he was paid for those years.

    “They allowed him to be Manny and then got fed up with it. It isn’t his fault they enabled him all these years. They also didn’t have to trade him. He couldn’t force their hand to do anything. They traded him because they felt they had to trade him.”

    Agreed again. They were his chief enablers. They didn’t have to trade but felt they did. The fact that they were a much better team AFTER he was sent to LA speaks volumes about what a pain in the ass he was this season for the organization and his teammates though.

    “I doubt they’re regretting the 2 rings the team won while he was a gigantic part of their lineup.”

    Me too, but he was duly rewarded for his efforts. I just object to the idea of not honoring a contract when it no longer is convenient to. He did that. I wouldn’t want a guy like that here for a number of reasons. 1) He’s low character. 2) The issues he had with being in Boston exists 10-fold in NYC. 3) He’s a one tool player and the Yankees have no room at DH.

  249. E-Man November 26th, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    “HaHa. Yes, CC’s going to leave $40M on the table because he can’t eat candy in the clubhouse. Pretty sure he could buy a nice chunk of Mars/M&M with that $40M.”

    ???

    The money is on the table.. has been on the table.. That’s the point.

    Maybe some people want to enjoy their jobs since money doesn’t really mean anything when you get to a certain point.

    Who wants to go to a boot camp when other teams are winning with a summer camp?

  250. raymagnetic November 26th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

    “..if the Rockies wants 2 of your bad pitchers for Street, you take it.”

    Trade two bad pitchers to get one bad pitcher back in return?

  251. LibertyBoyNYC November 26th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

    Tex ain’t Manny. It’s like that. Tex will resign with LAA, and the AL East will stack their chips in preperation for a 2010 FA market that tilts towards the buyer. I’d rather have Cody Ransom than Ty Wiggington.

  252. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

    “If Cashman signs Sabathia he still has tons of money to go out and get a couple great bench players and 2 more very good starting pitchers. If he signs Sabathia and Teixeira there won’t be much money left for 2 very good starting pitchers and a good bench.”

    Actually, it all depends on what the Yanks choose for a payroll.

    The Yanks’ 2008 payroll was approximately $209MM. $88MM seems to be the accepted amount coming off the books.

    They need to give $8MM in raises to ARod and Cano, and they’ve already spent about $9MM on Marte and Swisher. Count on Nady and Wang getting raises in arbitration, say $3MM total. That leaves $68MM to spend if they stay at their 2009 payroll.

    If they sign CC for $23MM, that leaves $45MM. If they stayed at their 2009 payroll, they could get two more really good free agent pitchers for, say, $28MM total. That leaves $22MM to spend on offense and bench, so you would be right.

    On the other hand, if they signed CC for $23MM and Teixeira for $20MM, you would have $25MM to spend on pitching and the bench, so your belief Teixera soaks up too much payroll would be wrong.

    But, if their payroll goes down to $190MM, then in the case of CC + pitchers your $22MM becomes $3MM (and don’t forget it may take more than $23MM to sign CC), so you would be wrong, In the case of CC + Teixera,, your $25MM becomes $6MM, so you would be right.

    I keep thinking the Yanks will end up at $200MM. At $200MM you can construct a roster that has both CC and two more free agent pitchers plus a bench, or CC and Teixeira plus one more FA pitcher. I think you get a little more out of the CC/Teixeira combo, but it is certainly debatable.

  253. 86w183 November 26th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    I like Albaladejo’s stuff and would be fine with him as either th elast guy in the pen or using him as a trade chip. Strong winter league performances are very good things even if some insist they don’t mean anything.

    Cashman never mentioned the $ 180 M figure, that’s a media creation. I expect payroll to come down some, but not a ton. CC would cost about the same as Mussina plus Pavano. Marte costs less than Fansworth. Pettite will cost less than 2008. Teixiera if signed would be less expensive than Giambi and Swisher less than Abreu.

    Thus they would reduce payroll AND get younger and more athletic and address weaknesses. It’s not that hard.

  254. CB November 26th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    Heyman has this on the yankee’s take on CC and the Angels:

    “People inside the Yankees are skeptical about whether the Angels are as serious as it seems about signing star free-agent pitcher CC Sabathia. Some Yankees officials seem to believe: 1) that the Angels leaked their alleged intention to make an offer to Sabathia approaching that of the Yankees’ $140 million, six-year offer to drive down the demands of first baseman and stated top target Mark Teixeira, or 2) that if the Angels do go for Sabathia, it will be with an offer in the range of $100-120 million, not $140 million.”

    Heymon goes on to say he believes that the Angels are serious citing another “executive” who believes the Angels will offer CC santana money.

    Now this is from Heyman so take it for what its worth.

    I do agree with this point – no leaks have come from CC’s camp at all.

    Why in the world would it possibly be in the Angels interest to leak a package offer in the LA Times if they wanted to sign CC?

    They may be sincerely interested in CC. But that LA Times article seemed intended for Tex.

    http://www.fannation.com/si_bl.....osts/27081

  255. raymagnetic November 26th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    “Money is not an issue for them. ”

    CB,

    I’m not saying money is an issue. I just don’t see them signing anyone to an 8 to 10 year deal. Doesn’t seem like something they do.

  256. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    Oops, I subtracted wrong. The $22MM left to spend in my example of CC + two more free agent pitchers would actually be $17MM, and if the payroll dropped to $190MM then you would actually be $2MM short.

    That’s all assuming the 2008 payroll was in fact $209MM, of course. Does anyone know if that number is actually correct?

  257. CB November 26th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    “Doesn’t seem like something they do.”

    Neither did spending $100M on matsuzaka.

    I think it all gets down to what their evaluation of Tex is as a player.

    If they’ve decided he’s a must have player then they’ll spend the money.

    Do they think he’s a must have player? Hard to know. But Tex definitely fits the type of player Theo likes – high obp, good defense, hits for power.

    Think about how much they paid JD Drew when no one else would have given him close to that much.

    Their team is very well structured financially. And they have in the past shown that they will focus in on a player and work to acquire him.

    They operate like the Marlins a bit – only with money and they win games.

    The sox are a very well runs team. I think their talent evaluations are the driver for their decision making. I wouldn’t put much past them.

  258. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    “Do they think he’s a must have player? Hard to know. But Tex definitely fits the type of player Theo likes – high obp, good defense, hits for power.”

    Beat me to it CB, as I was going to cite Drew as an example. Ray’s right insomuch as they haven’t signed anyone to an 8-10 year deal, but I see Teixeira as the exception simply because he’s the only player of his ilk that I can think of to hit free agency at such a young age and satisfies the criteria that seems to make Epstein and Co happy (OBP, power, defense, etc). To a far lesser degree, Drew satisfied those qualities as well and look how far the extended themselves for him.

  259. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

    “I do agree with this point – no leaks have come from CC’s camp at all.”

    Yeah, seems like that Genske guy is the anti-Boras when it comes to this stuff.

  260. mel November 26th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    Fredo,

    Now you’re just irritating me. You’ve explained perfectly why Teixeira would be a great fit for any team that can afford him, especially the Yankees!

    If I had to choose, I’d choose Teixeira over CC. Much less risk. I know people talk about wins shares and this and that, but pitching comes and goes. Much easier to fill your pitching needs than stabilizing a position with an above-average player.

    Not downplaying CC’s ability to be an ace, but if we’re patient enough the pitching picture will clear up. Wang is no slouch and Joba has the potential to be very, very good for us.

  261. CB November 26th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    “To a far lesser degree, Drew satisfied those qualities as well and look how far the extended themselves for him.”

    They tampered with Drew through Boras to sign him. They alienated the Dodgers to do so.

    Then they signed him to a way over the market contract.

    And all that was for JD Drew!

    The Sox are very particular. Not all of their call go well.

    They loved Coco Crisp and targeted him. Same for Drew and Lugo.

    They often try to acquire the same guy over and over once they lock in on him.

    They drafted Teixeira once.

    We’ll see. But other than his position (log jam in the corners), he fits all of the dimensions of what Theo looks for in a player.

    One thing I do wonder about – if they had locked on to Tex this tightly and have been looking at him for years why did they sign Lowell last year? I don’t see them doing that only from fan pressure.

  262. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    “if they had locked on to Tex this tightly and have been looking at him for years why did they sign Lowell last year?”

    because youd never be absolutely sure he’d hit the market, Boras client or not, until he files for FA.

  263. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    Fredo & CB …. I offered some posts earlier in the day which mirror your thoughts. The JD Drew signing is a paradigm for their strategy on Texeira. Simply put, if they loved Drew, they REALLY love Texeira.

    I think they’re all in on Texeira, as they were with DiceK. The Sox are relatively selective in their zealotry, but I think that Texeira is just the right player, at just the right time.

  264. mel November 26th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    CB,

    Lowell was also instrumental to their 2007 run. He was the glue.

  265. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    “if they had locked on to Tex this tightly and have been looking at him for years why did they sign Lowell last year?”

    and to add to that, too many things can happen in between, too… including injury.

  266. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    “They tampered with Drew through Boras to sign him. They alienated the Dodgers to do so.”

    Maybe sending them Ramirez for next to nothing washed that out. :)

  267. raymagnetic November 26th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    I still can’t see them ponying up the years and the money for Teixeira.

    He is going to have at least the Angels who desperately want to sign him and the Yankees driving up the price.

    We are talking about an A-Rod type of contract if three teams are bidding for him. I’d be shocked if they gave him a 200 million dollar contract.

  268. CB November 26th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    “The Sox are relatively selective in their zealotry,”

    Good description Brian. The love for JD Drew was really bizarre.

    But yeah – if he’s their guy they’ll go after him hard.

    Look at what they’ve done with Tazawa. Most people think he’s ok – the sox are willing to tick off all of the japanese league to sign him.

    I could see them going to $200M for Tex. Not sure if they’d go past that however.

  269. mel November 26th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    $180M Sox
    $175M Yankees
    $190M Angels

    Which team does Tex sign with?

  270. CB November 26th, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    “Maybe sending them Ramirez for next to nothing washed that out. ”

    That’s great. That was the quid pro quo for the dodgers inexplicably not filing tampering charges against the Sox.

    Sure we illegally poached JD Drew, but hey, we’ll give you Manny in return!

    The JD Drew thing kind of puts Manny not honoring his contract in a different light.

    In that context, the Sox hand wringing and melodramatic outrage about Manny jilting his contract is pretty hypocritical.

    Not like the Sox paid much respect to the contract JD had with the dodgers.

  271. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 3:00 pm

    “Look at what they’ve done with Tazawa. Most people think he’s ok – the sox are willing to tick off all of the japanese league to sign him.”

    Think they pissed them off over Kevin Millar a few years back too. Doesn’t seem to bother them any. Not sure how having the Japanese leagues ticked off at you manifest itself. Anyone????

  272. TurnTwo November 26th, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    “Which team does Tex sign with?”

    whever the most money leads him you’d think… so thats the Angels in your scenerio.

    you wonder how AAV comes into play.

    does he prefer a 6 year deal, where he can hit the FA market again at around 36 for one more go-around, or cash in right now for 7-8-9-10 years, betting that he’ll decline in overall production or get injured before his next contract?

  273. Brian (Red Sox fan) November 26th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    CB – I hated the Drew signing, but have moved up to ambivalent. The 2007 ALCS grand slam off Carmona has bought him some some affection, and a place in my evening prayers.

  274. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 26th, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    “$180M Sox
    $175M Yankees
    $190M Angels

    Which team does Tex sign with?”

    $200M Nats, now what ?

  275. Jeff November 26th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    Tex is a Boras client… he isin’t taking a cent less.

  276. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    “Not like the Sox paid much respect to the contract JD had with the dodgers.”

    Yup. I’d guess in those “opt out” cases, the agents must be using back channels to take the temperature on things. ‘Cept in the case of Arod. On that one, I just think that Boras called their bluff.

  277. mel November 26th, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    Hmm, Brandon, he’d have to seriously weigh out if it’s worth an extra 1-2M per year to be on a perennial loser.

    I clearly heard him tell Erin Andrew that he wanted to go to a place where he could win. I don’t think he could look her in the eye and lie.

  278. CB November 26th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    “Yup. I’d guess in those “opt out” cases, the agents must be using back channels to take the temperature on things.”

    They always do. But in general they get an assessment of whether there would be a market for the player. Meaning there would be more than one team interested.

    The JD situation was just rank tampering. There was no grand market for him that would have teams fighting to give him a 5 yr deal.

    There was one team that seems to have guaranteeed they would.

    That was just gross tampering. But the dodgers didn’t have the backbone to fight it out. They just whimpered away to their corner.

    The Drew situation does make the Manny situation look even more patently absurd.

    It’s true – fans get all over players but when teams exhibit analogous behavior they tend not to notice or to be anywhere near as critical.

    If you aren’t going to honor the tampering rules and the contract another player has with his team, very tough to wring your hand wow is me when manny doesn’t honor his contract and decides to take a few days off.

  279. O*Line November 26th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    Like all Boras clients, Tex will go to whoever is the highest bidder. Even if it’s the Nats.

  280. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    “does he prefer a 6 year deal, where he can hit the FA market again at around 36 for one more go-around, or cash in right now for 7-8-9-10 years”

    Interesting question. Guys like Ramirez and Abreu may serve as the acid test for what the market might be like for 35+ guys. I don’t think it’s going to be quite as active as many think. I’d guess he wants the 8 years. Plus with Boras involved, who knows whether the dreaded opt out clause can be built in?

  281. mel November 26th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....ent-market

    Rosenthal’s says that Boras would want Tex on the Sox.

  282. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 3:16 pm

    “The JD situation was just rank tampering. There was no grand market for him that would have teams fighting to give him a 5 yr deal.”

    Oh yeah, not doubting that for a second. With his injury history, there was little reason to think he’d be opting out at all as he still had 3 years left at $11M per.

  283. CB November 26th, 2008 at 3:18 pm

    “Not sure how having the Japanese leagues ticked off at you manifest itself. Anyone????”

    I’d guess they could kill a number of the marketing deals the sox were planning on accruing revenue from for japanese signings like Matsuzaka.

    The sox thought they’d make quite a bit in Japan from Matsuzaka – similar to how the yankees have gotten a lot of value for Matsui – roughly $3-4M in marketing I think????

    Matsuzaka didn’t really pan out.

    The japanese league teams are all owned by large corporations. I could see them killing promotional deals as a minimum.

    Also working hard to make sure the more talented players e.g. Yu Darvish are unable to sign with the sox.

  284. ARod is a Turkey November 26th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    Anyone see the photos of ARod with Madonna in today’s Post?

    I swear I don’t get 30 year old guys dating 50 year old women.

    And frankly, Madonna hit the wall a long time ago. She looks like a raisin.

  285. Fredo Corleone November 26th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

    “Rosenthal’s says that Boras would want Tex on the Sox.”

    Actually makes sense. He wouldn’t care as much if Boston were an option for Ramirez, but it would seem that ship has sailed. He’d want the Yankees, Boston and the Halos as involved on his guys as possible.

  286. Pel November 26th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

    He likes 50 year old women with more arm definition than Mr. Olympia.

    Pffft… who doesn’t?

  287. O*Line November 26th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    Boras wants Teix in Boston because of the chain reaction it would cause.

    If Tex goes to the Angels… it doesn’t impact anything with Boras. Manny isin’t going to Boston, and if we get CC then we won’t overpay for Lowe. If Tex goes to the Yankees, that means that CC would have gone to the Angels, and then that hurts his Manny market considering Boston isin’t after him.

  288. OldYanksFan November 26th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    WinShares, like any Stat, is not the be all to end all.

    From THT: “Win Shares, invented by Bill James, is a very complicated statistic that takes all the contributions a player makes toward his team’s wins and distills them into a single number that represents the number of wins contributed to the team, times three. We have tweaked James’ original formula somewhat.”
    http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....e-arrived/

    Player–: 04 05 06 07 08 Tot
    C.M.Wang: xx 07 17 16 07 47 (3.5 years)
    Beckett:: 09 14 12 19 11 65
    Halladay: 09 16 21 18 23 87
    Sabathia: 12 13 14 24 25 88
    Br. Webb: 12 19 22 22 22 97
    R.Oswalt: 19 22 21 18 18 98
    Santana:: 27 23 25 18 21 114

    Teixeira: 24 32 21 26 30 133
    Ramirez:: 27 34 29 15 34 139
    A-Rod:::: 30 37 25 39 25 156
    A.Pujols: 40 38 39 32 35 184

    By the way, in 2004, Barry Bonds has FIFTY THREE winshares!!!

    Note: Players that missed time to injury will have lower numbers, as WinShares a COUNTING Stat.
    So, even if these number are 25% OFF, what can we see?

    1) When Wang is healthy, he is as EFFECTIVE as Beckett
    2) Wang has a BETTER YEARLY AVERAGE then Beckett
    3) The best Pitchers in baseball are Santana, Oswalt, Webb, Sabathia and Halladay
    4) Johan Santana separates himself from the others

    5) Position players account for FAR MORE WINS then do pitchers
    6) ARod is truly a stud
    7) Pujols is THE MOST EFFECTIVE PLAYER IN BASEBALL
    8) In 2004, Bonds was a God!

    NOTICE:
    Manny’s numbers compared to Beckett’s
    Tex’s numbers compared to Sabathia’s. Although over the LAST 2 YEARS, they have been close.

    P.S. Brandon: ‘PITCHING WINS BALLGAMES’ and ‘WE NEED AN ACE!’ are NOT official stats… nor are they facts.

  289. R-Tek November 26th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    Boras assumes that if Tex goes to Boston then CC would go to the Angels. That would leave us scrambling for answers and be forced to turn to Manny/Lowe.

  290. Eric November 26th, 2008 at 3:32 pm

    If you listen to that Hot Stove interview with Cash, he spoke MUCH more positive about Lowe than he did Burnett.

  291. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes November 26th, 2008 at 3:32 pm

    Its stupid questions like this that give Yankees fans reputations for making idiotic trade proposals that Peter often, and rightfully so, criticizes us for:

    Vito NYC: Jim, I have come to the conclusion that cole hamels would look awesome in yankee pinstripes…do you think a deal involving ian kennedy and melky cabrera along with a lesser prospect like coke, would be enought to pry him away from philly?

    SportsNation Jim Callis: (2:19 PM ET ) If Yankees fans are going to keep sending silly trades, I guess I’ll keep posting them. On this one, I’d say no chance in hell. Would the Yankees trade Joba Chamberlain for Jayson Werth, Kyle Kendrick and Clay Condrey? That would be a more equitable deal. Sheesh.

    And I am PRETTY SURE this is the same VITO that posts on here.

  292. Ariel November 26th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    Yes, the Red Sox enabled, promoted and applauded “Manny being Manny”. As late as late May or early July of last year, the Remdog and Orsillo hosted on NESN a “Manny Being Manny” short clips, laughing it up and loving the guy, as all of the organization did until late June or July when he “lost it” (pushing the elderly traveling secretary), and for which there is no excuse, and for which he should have been reprimanded by the team but wasn’t, because at that time it wasn’t in the organization’s best interests to do so.

    The Red Sox, as noted in a number of earlier posts, have a history, most unlike the Yankees, of parting with their erstwhile stars on an acrimonious basis, both before and during the current ownership and management regime….Mo Vaughn, Clemens, Pedro, Nomar to name the most recent (of which I am aware).

    In fact, when Manny joined the Dodgers and tried to explain what had happened vis-a-vis the organization (it received ink in LA but not nationally…one wonders why), Nomar and Bill Mueller backed up virtually everything Manny said. Mueller went further and talked about how great a teammate Manny had been, and his personal relationship with Manny. (Bowa, Mattingly and Torre spoke volumes about how great Manny was, but of course this was summarily rejected since Manny, the devious soul that he is, was on his best behavior to get a good deal)

    There are two sides to every story, and though Manny should not be absolved from the above-referenced incident or “sitting down” on his teammates, the circumstances that led to it and the nature of what may be an ugly and selfish organization should be bared so one can reach his/her own conclusion of where the engendering responsibility rests.

    A month ago or so, Bill Rhoden authored an interesting commentary in the New York Times which cast a different light on the situation. It was rather enlightening and focussed in part on interviews with a number of fans. Support, surprisingly, was evenly divided.

  293. CB November 26th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    “WinShares, like any Stat, is not the be all to end all. ”

    Winshare is an awful stat. Particularly because Bill James’s methods for accounting for defense are pretty bad. Not even remotely close to what better systems do.

    A lot of James’ work is very old and outdated. Winshare was a good idea at the time but it’s an artifact now.

    Unfortunately, this happens a lot with baseball stats. Happening now with some of baseball prospectus’s stuff unfortunately.

  294. Knudsen November 26th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

    If Cashman really intends to actively pursue Lowe and buy into Boras’ long term contractual nonsense, he is a complete onion head.

  295. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    CB, what exactly wOBA? Rob Neyer had a blog post about it yesterday. I tried reading about it but my eyes glazed over…

  296. bardos November 26th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    texeira is using the angels in the same way CC is using the yankees. tex wants east coast.

  297. Drive 4-5 November 26th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    Ariel,

    How does one rationalize Manny tanking on the team in ’06?

    http://www.boston.com/sports/b....._this_act/

    Or the heartburn he put the Red Sox through in ’07?

    http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....art_1.html

    There are excuse makers everywhere for Manny Ramirez and they are no different than the enablers the Red Sox became. Anyone, who believes the problem with Manny Ramirez is limited to his stealing a paycheck for a couple months in ’08 hasnt been watching the soap opera for the last 4 years.

    Manny is a great hitter. Actions speak louder than word and Manny’s actions show him to be a low class, unreliable slug.

  298. NYYanksFan November 26th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    “Anyone see the photos of ARod with Madonna in today’s Post?”

    Anyone who did has better eyesight than me because that could have been Jeter for as far away and fuzzy as that picture was.

  299. CB November 26th, 2008 at 4:09 pm

    “what exactly wOBA?”

    There’s a ton of baseball stats out there. Everyday someone’s making up a new one.

    Each tells you different things – provides different information.

    One of the negatives in baseball statistics is that people are constantly trying to say that stat X is better than stat Y, etc.

    For example now its very much in vogue to say that batting average is sort of meaningless and that on base percentage is what really matters.

    That’s just not true. They both have their purpose and tell you different things. That’s just an example.

    Now I say all this because wOBA is one of the more useful stats available to get across a player’s value at the plate.

    It’s a very, very sensible stat. I don’t talk about it here much as not many people are familiar with it. But its very good.

    It’s very similar to baseball prospectus’s EqA stat, if you are familiar with that. But it has some added utility uses.

    wOBA stands for weighted on base average and was developed by Tom Tango.

    What it does is to assign a value to every outcome possible from an at bat.

    For instance it says that on average a homerun is worth 1.4 runs more than an non-homerun basehit.

    Then based on those kinds of results you can assign values to home runs, triples, doubles, etc. in terms of runs.

    So what you get is what is the value of a double vs. a single? What is the value of a triple vs. a double. The value of a walk vs. a single, etc.

    For any player you basically look to what he does with every at bat and its outcome and come up with an average of what that player does at the plate.

    wOBA is particularly useful now because OPS has become such a commonly used stat.

    OPS is useful but it overvalues power and undervalues on base percentage.

    Stats like wOBA correct for that.

    To help make wOBA interpretable it is set to a scale close to that of OBP (EqA from baseball prospectus is set to the same scale as batting average).

    So a wOBA of .380 is very good. .400 terrific.

    So wOBA gives you a good sense of what a player does with each one of his at bats taking into account both the value of getting on base and the marginal value of getting hits that produce extra bases.

    It also does other useful things – you can convert it to wins above replacement if you want for instance.

    Here the reference from tom tango’s the book:
    http://www.insidethebook.com/woba.shtml

  300. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 4:15 pm

    CB, Thank you.

  301. dave November 26th, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    “‘We think our offense is better than it was last year,’ Cashman said. ‘We had injuries and underperformance. I think Robinson Canó is going to have a big year and bounce back to the previous two years rather than last year.’”

    What fantasy world is Brian living in? This is why I don’t like him that much. he says these ridiculous comments without anything to support them. oK, so cano is cut and swisher couldnt possibly be any worse than he was last season. And Posada and Matsui may stay healthy for a majority of the season – the key word being may. However, we could have other injuries next season and not even could – it is almost certain we will with the average age of the lineup. Swisher and Cano could regress even more just as much as they could turn back into their former selves.

    But here is the kicker – we are losing abreu and Giambi and essentially replacing them with swisher and gardner. Abreu had 609 at bats last season (the most on the team) batting 296 (fourth best) with a 371 obp (fourth best) with 22 stolen bases (second best) 287 total bases (second best) 20 homers (third best) 100 rbis (second best) 39 doubles (best on the team) 4 triples (best on the team) 100 runs (second best) and 180 hits (best on the team.) Giambi in 458 at bats had 32 homers (second best) 76 walks (best on the team) 230 total bases (sixth best) 373 obp (sixth best) and a 502 slugging (second best.) They were mostly our third and fifth hitter last season.

    Now, Im not advocating that we should re-sign both of them or even either of them. But Brett batted 228 in 127 at bats with a 283 obp. He hit 0 homers. Swisher batted 219 in 497 at bats with a 332 obp. Granted, Brett had 13 stolen bases and swisher had 24 homers and of course, we could expect reasonable improvement for both (esp swisher) but enough to replace the kind of production Giambi and Abreu gave us last season? Doubtful. And can Matsui and Posada stay healthy for an entire season without any other significant injuries in the lineup? Even more doubtful.

    This isnt even considering that our offense was absolutely pitiful last season and probably the major reason we finished third in the division and didnt make the playoffs outside of the injury to wang. so where does cash get off saying the offense will be better without any further additions? where is the proof of any of this?

  302. ANSKY November 26th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    IMO Madonna’s probably just using A-Rod as a mid life fling. I don’t see the big deal … he showed up about 15 years too late in her life to avoid the ‘moped’ theorem. Unfortunately for him, all his friends, all his enemies and the paparazzi have already caught him on her. And unfortunately for us, it’s all in the media and in our faces thanks to the latter bunch.

    Soon she’ll be moving on, he’ll be moving on, he’ll have a few laughs with the guys, she’ll eventually hire Michael Jackson’s plastic surgeon and that’ll be that. Next year we’ll hear more gossip on who they’re each boinking next, and that’ll all be forgotten. It’s hard to avoid sometimes but I don’t get caught up in it. He can play baseball for my team any day.

    Gotta wonder about A-Rod’s taste in women though. If he had sloppy seconds with Canseco’s skank wife ages ago, and now it’s mid-life Madonna, why doesn’t he go after a woman who doesn’t need to wear a bag over her face?

  303. Drive 4-5 November 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    CB,

    Forgive me if you’ve already answered this, but what is Mark Teireira’s wOBA? And can you give us Bobby Abreu’s? It would be interest in to see what the Yankees stand to lose if they dont pursue either player.Thanks!

  304. Drive 4-5 November 26th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    Teireira = Teixeira. Sorry

  305. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    Drive 4-5, check out this site.

    Abreu’s was .368
    Teixeira’s was .410 (Arod’s was .413)

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leade.....38;month=0

  306. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    Drive,

    Fangraphs.com has every player’s wOBA. Last year Tex was at .410 which was the best wOBA of his career.

  307. CB November 26th, 2008 at 4:40 pm

    “what is Mark Teireira’s wOBA? And can you give us Bobby Abreu’s?”

    Tex’s wOBA was .410 last season. 9th best in the league (right after ARod’s 413).

    Pujols was best at an obscene .458 (man can he hit… contemporary Ted Williams…)

    Abreu – .368.

    This past season was arguably the best of Tex’s career – next year he projects to be a .386 wOBA player.

    Abreu projects to be a .357 wOBA player.

    So next year Tex projects to be around 25 runs better than a league average hitter.

    Abreu projects to be around 12 runs better than league average at the plate.

    Those projections are offense only – they don’t take into account defense.

    Say Tex is 10 runs better than the league average first baseman in the field. that’s a decent estimate

    That makes tex 35 runs better than league average. Or around 3.5 wins better than an average player.

    Abreu might be say 15 runs worse than a league average RF.

    So overall he would be exactly league average as a player in RF.

  308. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    This Fangraphs site is far out….

  309. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 4:48 pm

    “Abreu projects to be a .357 wOBA player.”

    And Nady projects to be a .348 wOBA player. Not much lost there…

  310. Wave Your Hat November 26th, 2008 at 4:54 pm

    CB,

    How would you compare wOBA to something like runs created per 27 outs? Based on your description, they seem to measure similar things.

  311. CB November 26th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    “And Nady projects to be a .348 wOBA player. Not much lost there…”

    Nady projects to be around 8 runs better than league average.

    And he’ll probably be league average in the field.

    So I’d guess Nady will be 5-8 runs better than an average RF next year while Abreu looks to be 3-5 runs worse than an average RF next year due to his defense.

    Its close between the two as far as the projections go.

    Abreu is a better offensive player than Nady but people are overestimating his loss to the yankees, particularly given Abreu’s defense which was truly bad this year.

  312. CB November 26th, 2008 at 5:00 pm

    “How would you compare wOBA to something like runs created per 27 outs?”

    They are all roughly similar in the method that is used to create them

    They are all based on simple linear weighting.

    It’s more a matter of how they are expressed and interpreted.

    wOBA was specifically set up to be expressed as a rate because people are use to seeing things like batting average, etc.

    There’s not a lot of difference other than how they are expressed.

    Now different models use different weighting so that will affect the net results e.g. if one model puts the weight of a single more than another does, etc.

    That happens and creates more of the substanitive differences than the end form the measure takes.

  313. no.27 November 26th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    Can anyone explain this to me?

    Why do so many people think the Yankees can’t sign CC and Teixeira and keep their payroll under control? Let’s say they sign CC for $165 over 7 years and Teixeira for $160 over 8 years. I think both of those deals are as high as they will get signed for.

    For 2010, the team is:
    Lineup: Jeter, Cano, A-Rod, Teixeira, Swisher, Posada, Jackson, with 2 holes

    Rotation: CC, Wang, Joba, Hughes, missing a 5th starter

    Bullpen: Mariano, Marte, no holes, just young, cheap pitchers

    Those players cost less than $160 million. By that point, the Yankees could have someone from the farm system pitching 5th or go out and get a 5th starter that won’t be that expensive. They could move Jeter to LF and put a guy at SS that’s an excellent fielder and bat him 9th.

    There’s no reason they shouldn’t be able to do that and keep their payroll around $180 million, right?

  314. Tom November 26th, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    CB, I don’t mean to be a pain in the ass but, what is the difference between Bill James’s projection method and the Marcel Projections?

  315. East Side Eddie November 26th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    The only real trustworthy baseball TV anaylysts are Tim Kirkjian and Buster Olney. All others are guessers.

  316. Viper November 26th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    No.27,

    Maybe you should accept the fact that Cashman has already made it clear that they will not sign Teixeira if they end up with Sabathia.

    All the questions and explanations why they could make it work is irrelevant and pointless because the people who make those decisions have already made up their minds.

    It’s never gonna happen so accept it.

  317. S.o.S. November 26th, 2008 at 5:21 pm

    Is it just me or does Damons wife look a little like Beyonce on the last thread?

  318. S.o.S. November 26th, 2008 at 5:24 pm

    Viper,
    You must have not heard that Cash reads this blog. Oh and his nickname is Stealth.

  319. RalphieD (Cant Wait for Spring Training) November 26th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    “Hughes mainly pitched off his 89-92 mph fastball and a plus curveball, a nice combination but not the 91-94 mph heater and knockout bender he showed down the stretch in Double-A two years ago. Whether he’ll regain his premium stuff once he stays healthy for an extended period remains to be seen. Whether he can stay healthy is uncertain, too, though he hasn’t had any arm-related problems since 2005, when he made two trips to the DL with shoulder tendinitis and a tired arm.

    “I just don’t see how he dominated the lower levels of the minors so thoroughly,” a second scout said. “He’s not overpowering at all. But he has a solid fastball and the curveball is OK. I don’t see what all the fuss was about, but he’s probably still a No. 3.”

    this is somewhat disappointing…i thought pete said hughes was throwing 94-95 with ease?

  320. Yanksgal07 November 26th, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    Today from Hoch at MLB.com…

    “Hughes’ performance sent some positive notes to New York, where the club is monitoring his progress. He was clocked around 95 mph in some starts, striking out 38 and walking 13 in 30 innings. In his final start on Nov. 19, Hughes beat the Scottsdale Scorpions, striking out 10 in five innings of shutout, two-hit ball.”

    I guess it all depends on who/where you read the info and who you believe. In the end we will all have to wait and see just how Phil develops just like many other pitchers who made it big but didn’t start off that way when they first arrived on the scene in the majors..

    I still have faith in Phil and I hope he makes it to the Yankees …this year…next year ..whenever ..he is ONLY 22 which everyone seems to forget whereas most pitchers don’t even touch the majors till 24-25.

    Go Yankees 2008 !!!!

  321. Yanksgal07 November 26th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    Oops …that’s Go Yankees 2009 !!! :o )

  322. Yanksgal07 November 26th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    Oops …that’s Go Yankees 2009 !!! :o )

  323. Yanksgal07 November 26th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

    “Maybe you should accept the fact that Cashman has already made it clear that they will not sign Teixeira if they end up with Sabathia.”

    They also made it clear they weren’t going to sign Alex if he opted out. How did that turn out??

    Go Yankees 2009!! (got it right that time ..)

  324. CB November 26th, 2008 at 6:01 pm

    “what is the difference between Bill James’s projection method and the Marcel Projections?”

    They’re different statistical models that use slightly different variables in them and different weighting.

    For example, most players will get somewhat worse as they age.

    How much worse? That’s tough to say. So different models will estimate the impact of a player being one year older in different ways.

    They are just different ways to come up with estimates.

  325. Nick in SF in Pikesville, MD November 26th, 2008 at 6:10 pm

    Is Phil Hughes ever going to turn 23? It seems like he’s been 22 forever.

  326. Yanksgal07 November 26th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    “Is Phil Hughes ever going to turn 23? It seems like he’s been 22 forever.”

    That’s the point ..they rushed him up here when he was so young that people forget he still is VERY young. He won’t be 23 till June 24th (day before my daughter’s Bday…that’s how I remember and Jeter is the day after)

    I say keep the faith for the rewards could turn out great !!!

    Go Yankees 2009 !!!

  327. bru November 26th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    miggs
    November 26th, 2008 at 9:48 am
    On the other hand, the silence from the CC camp is a little alarming.

    Logic says the Angels need a first baseman a lot more than a starter. Hopefully this is a ploy to flush out Tiexiera. But you have to ask yourself: “Do I really want CC here if he obviously doesn’t want to be here?” Now we don’t know if he really does or not and if he signs he’ll say how much he loves NY in his press conference and everything else.

    But if the Angels offer 10-15 million less than the Yankees, they shouldn’t feel inclined to up their offer. If we need to pay 20-30 million more than our nearest competitor just to get this guy then let him walk. Why pay someone an obscene amount of money knowing the only reason he is here is because the offer blows away other offers? Something about that rubs me the wrong way.

    ————————————————————

    i agree.

    if the angels don’t come close i would be upset if the yankees top their own offer.

    let him go somewhere else and pitch.he will be a terrible pitcher at the end of the contract chances are.

    these big contracts do not work anyways.we might be better off in the long run.

  328. no.27 November 26th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    My question is why people think the Yankees aren’t able to afford signing CC and Tex. Between this offseason and next offseason they are cutting big salaries from Giambi, Abreu, Mussina, Pettitte, Damon, and Matsui, and that doesn’t include the smaller contracts that are being freed up. That’s around $100 mil right there.

    They are also getting big contributions from cheap guys like Joba, Hughes, and the guys in the bullpen plus reasonable contracts to Wang, Cano, and Swisher and other young guys that will be coming up from the farm system.

  329. Eric November 26th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    Is Woba a nickname for Joba?

  330. raymagnetic November 26th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    “this is somewhat disappointing…i thought pete said hughes was throwing 94-95 with ease?”

    What Pete actually said is he spoke with 3 different scouts and they told him Phil was throwing 94 with ease.

    If at the age of 22 Hughes is a number 3 barely making over the league minimum I don’t know what’s disappointing about that.

  331. dave November 26th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    They also made it clear that bubba crosby was the starting center fielder and we signed damon. They also made it clear that the offense will def be better next season even though there is absolutely no reason to assume that it will be.

  332. ham fighters November 26th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

    thats about the worst scouting report ive read on phil and it still says he’s a #3! and several ppl have said he was throwing 95 in scranton and the AFL. this guy is going to be good.

  333. ASON fan November 26th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    CB-
    I luv all ur posts so I’m posting under a new name ;) , but are u a stockbroker in real life?

    You have a fascinating view of stat diversification…

  334. Viper November 26th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    They also made it clear they weren’t going to sign Alex if he opted out. How did that turn out??

    —————–

    Things are a little different now. It was this time last season when Hank seemed to be the guy in charge and A-Rod called him to get a contract done.

    Now that it’s clear that Hal and Cashman are the ones running the show and Hank basically out of the loop, we aren’t going to have that same kind of power struggle in the front office.

    And Cashman has already said that they won’t be signing Teixeira if they land Sabathia.

    People often think the Yanks have an unlimited payroll, but Cashman and Hal have made it clear that’s not the case and that they want to reduce it.

    I guess people aren’t going to believe it until they wake up on Opening Day and the Yanks’ payroll is sitting around $180M instead of $210M.

  335. no.27 November 26th, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    Viper,

    The point is that the Yankees CAN have a payroll around $180 AND sign both of them. If they don’t sign Tex this year, they are going to end up spending lots of money next year on a free agent that isn’t as good.

  336. Viper November 26th, 2008 at 6:46 pm

    They also made it clear that bubba crosby was the starting center fielder and we signed damon.

    ——————

    It’s not exactly the same thing and you should know the difference.

    Cashman speaks in general terms about everything and always gives himself himself some wiggle room such as “As of right now, Crosby would be the center fielder on Opening Day….and blah blah blah.”

    But this time, he specifically said that there was no chance he’d sign both Sabathia and Teixeira. He left no wiggle room there.

    Obviously, Cashman doesn’t tell the whole truth about what goes on inside that front office because there are things Joe Public doesn’t need to know.

    But Cashman doesn’t flat out lie to the media either.

  337. RonH November 26th, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    Don’t mean to get off the baseball talk, but everyone have a happy, healthy and safe Thanksgiving! Enjoy the time family and friends, the hot stove will still be here when we get back.

  338. Viper November 26th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

    The point is that the Yankees CAN have a payroll around $180 AND sign both of them. If they don’t sign Tex this year, they are going to end up spending lots of money next year on a free agent that isn’t as good.

    ——————-

    Not necessarily. Teixeira is not the only available talent out there.

    They landed Swisher and Nady for very little in return.

    Who is to say that they can’t make other moves of this caliber before the 2010 season?

    Long term contracts are not always the answer to resolving issues – especially when they have much bigger issues regarding the rotation.

    They can manage just fine without Teixeira as long as they significantly upgrade the rotation and defense.

  339. OldYanksFan November 26th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    CB… a few thoughts, not to disagree with you.
    1) The Hardball Times has ‘tweaked’ the original BJ formula. What exactly they did, I don’t know.
    2) If you study defensive metrics, they are still flawed. Maybe the best we have, but I wouldn’t be surprised if in valuating a player, they could be off 25% in either direction.
    3) Since defense does NOT apply to the pitchers stats, I think the comparison of the pitchers I show has some value.
    4) The players I mentioned get most of their ‘credit’ from offense. So it defense it understated, it would mean Manny may actually look at little worse and Tex may actually look a little better.

    What about my conclusions? Has Santana been MUCH better then the others? Do Yankee fans OVER estimate ‘Ace’ Beckett, who really only had ONE excellent year? Does he actually compare to Wang? And most important, do premiere POSITION players Win more games then premium PITCHERS?

    Winshares says Tex is worth FIFTY PERCENT again more Wins the Sabathia? Valid? Is at least Tex worth SOMETHING (if not 50%) more then Sabathia? Does this matter since we are chasing both/either CC and/or Tex… and many posts here are about who is more needed.

  340. Yanksgal07 November 26th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    “But this time, he specifically said that there was no chance he’d sign both Sabathia and Teixeira. He left no wiggle room there.”

    I have never read where Cashman said they positively won’t sign both. I have read where he alluded to the fact that people shouldn’t think the Yankees will get every free agent out there but he also said that nothing is ever ruled out which I feel does leave the Yankees open to any and every deal at the moment. If they do get two of the big free agent pitchers chances are they won’t go for Tex but in all truth ..no matter what the Yankees say ..the word NEVER isn’t in their vocabulary if they really want something because in the end they can afford it unlike most.

    With each passing day it’s that much closer to Spring Training and although I do love winning ….win or lose I’ll always LOVE My Yanks !!!

    Happy Thanksgiving to all and to all a good night …

    Go Yankees 2009!!

  341. Viper November 26th, 2008 at 7:14 pm

    I have never read where Cashman said they positively won’t sign both.

    —————-

    Here you go in plain English:

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/11.....138588.htm

    The raging speculation has been that the Yankees will sign CC Sabathia, Mark Teixeira and another high-end free agent or two such as Manny Ramirez, Derek Lowe or A.J. Burnett. General manager Brian Cashman termed that conjecture “crazy talk.”

    In fact, in an exclusive interview with The Post, Cashman strongly indicated the Yankees will not even sign Sabathia and Teixeira in tandem.

    “At the pricetags I have read, that is fantasy land, not reality land,” Cashman said yesterday of bringing in Sabathia and Teixeira. A Yankees executive said the club has not even created scenarios for assembling a 2009 roster in which it signs the most attractive starter and position player in the free-agent market.

  342. PAT M. November 26th, 2008 at 7:17 pm

    Texeria is and has always been on the Front Office’s off season agenda…..Regardless of CC…..Of course I have no documentation of such….Considering all the circumstances it only makes sense…..

  343. Knudsen November 26th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

    Yes, and the Yankees would “NEVER” re-sign A-Rod after he opted out….and you can take that to the bank!!!!

  344. RalphieD (Cant Wait for Spring Training) November 26th, 2008 at 7:24 pm

    “What Pete actually said is he spoke with 3 different scouts and they told him Phil was throwing 94 with ease.

    If at the age of 22 Hughes is a number 3 barely making over the league minimum I don’t know what’s disappointing about that.”

    i wasnt saying hughes being a #3 starter is disppointing, i was referring to the difference in velocity…if you believe BA then hes 89-91..if u believe pete scouts then its something higher…

  345. Nick_K November 26th, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    Ken Rosenthal at his best.

  346. CB November 26th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

    “What about my conclusions? Has Santana been MUCH better then the others? Do Yankee fans OVER estimate ‘Ace’ Beckett, who really only had ONE excellent year? Does he actually compare to Wang? And most important, do premiere POSITION players Win more games then premium PITCHERS?”

    OldYanksFan,

    First off – I wanted to apologize for my response to your post. It was only after I had fired it off did it strike me that I hadn’t really discussed any of the substance of your point and instead only went on to talk about win shares.

    I enjoy your posts and you always have interesting things to say.

    That said I’ll discuss some of the points you just made. But to do so I’ll need to talk about them in the context of win share as that was the basis from which you were drawing your conclusions.

    It’s true that the Hardball Times has tweaked James’ win share formula.

    But Win Share is still fundamentally flawed. This isn’t simply an issue of arguing about what’s better batting avg vs. OBP, etc.

    One huge issue with win shares – what are they? No one can explain it in a simple fashion because they don’t represent anything intuitive. When you are designing metrics one of the key things to consider is whether or not they have something called “face validity.” Face validity basically means that the measure makes sense, that it represents what it is supposed to.

    Win share is so convoluted it has no meaning that you can make sense of in your mind. James’s original definition of win share and formula went on for dozens and dozens of pages. It’s more complicated than the proof of Fermat theorem!

    Win Share doesn’t represent anything other than bill james’s opinion. It’s basically the translation of his opinions into numbers. He makes assumptions that are completed unmotivated and just outright guesses for values.

    Believe me – it’s just awful. Quite honestly – it’s statistics at close to its worst.

    Why do I bring this up? I do so because it has a huge impact on the conclusions you draw.

    In fact, I wouldn’t really even have needed to ready your argument to know that based on win share tex would look way better than CC. Using win share that’s close to a foregone conclusion.

    Why? Because of the way James’ defines how players contribute to wins. James defines win share such that hitters contribute around 50% to a team’s win and pitchers only around 33% to the teams wins (defense is the rest).

    The measure is systematically biased against pitchers. Why? James decided that’s the way it would be. Ok …

    So for comparable all star quality players the hitter will almost always contribute more win shares by the definition of the metrics weighting.

    Looking at win shares alone, there’s no way CC could ever be more valuable than Tex because James had before hand decided that hitting is more valuable than pitching in terms of impact on winning.

    That’s just makes no sense whatsoever. None. And i think part of this is based on the relative availability of more data related to hitting rather than pitching. But that’s no reason to come to this conclusion.

    On top of that the statistics used to define wins just don’t work (defense in particular… it’s completely outmoded as its not based on play by play data like zone rating is…).

    It’s always hard to compare pitchers to hitters because that comparison is largely not quantitative but qualitative. Stats can only do so much.

    Now that said, the best way to compare them is to use wins above replacement or wins above average.

    And if you want to decide whether the yanks should sign CC or Tex dependent on who contributes more wins for next season there’s simply no comparison.

    CC projects to be 5.5 wins above replacement next season. That is phenomenal.

    Tex projects to be around 4.1 wins above replacement.

    CC is a far more valuable pitcher than Tex is a first baseman. Compared to the alternative of replacement, CC is the much more valuable player as he’ll contribute more wins.

    This is even more true for the yankees. Now that the team has acquired Swisher, Tex would not be replacing a replacement level 1b – he’d be replacing Swisher.

    Tex projects to be around 3 wins better than Swisher. If Swisher has a year like he did in 2007 it would be closer to 2 wins.

    On the other hand – the yanks rotation is in shambles. If they say sign tex and pass on CC and Aceves winds up in the rotation and bombs then the yankees very well could have a replacement level talent in the rotation that CC could have replaced.

    Based on expected wins for next year in the context of the yankees existing roster and needs CC is the guy to sign and there’s not a lot of debate around it.

    Now that’s not the only factor driving this decision so I wouldn’t simply say wins above replacement decides it. The best argument for Tex is actually the risk associated with signing a pitcher long term (very real indeed) and the yanks need for offense.

    But in reference to which player will most likely help the team win the most games next year – it’s CC and its not that close.

  347. PAT M. November 26th, 2008 at 8:31 pm

    CB, Your point is very valed, as the Yanks do need a front end lock down type starter more than anything else…..And your statiaical illustrations more than prove your point…..As I mentioned the oyher day, after CC, I think the FO. has to make a run at Texeria….He fills so many needs thatthe club is faced with……I also believe he has an MVP run in him…..

  348. CB November 26th, 2008 at 8:46 pm

    Pat,

    It’s a very good point. Both CC and Tex present compelling values to the yankees as they both serve to fill significant needs while at the same time being top notch talents.

    Neither is a case of saying we have a need lets just pick from what’s available because it’s the best out there. Which is the usual way free agency goes and why it turns out to be such a disappointment so often.

    I’ve definitely come around to your take on Tex. I still don’t see him as a truly great hitter but that’s shades of gray I suppose.

    Given the team’s need for more hitting, need to increase its on base percentage, need for youth, and need to improve 1b defense (SS and 3b are locked in at average at best…) Tex is the convergence of many of their needs.

    I can’t argue agains them needing to press forward and sign Tex with almost as much emphasis as they are doing with CC.

    That assumes somehow they can make it work under their budget.

    I just don’t know if it will.

    It’s going to be an arms race between the Yanks, Sox and Angels this winter. No team will want to fall behind.

    Yanks sign CC – the Sox will be doubly motivated to improve by signing Tex. The angels get left out on CC and Tex they will make a big move on Manny.

    Interestingly, the Sox have only one shot at a big free agent score this winter – Tex. They are out on CC. And obviously out on Manny.

    This winter for the Sox its Tex or bust I think. The yanks and angels could in theory sign any of those three.

    If the sox go after Tex they’re going to go after him big time. Their entire winter may depend on signing him, especially if the mareket for Lowe and Burnett gets silly.

  349. PAT M. November 26th, 2008 at 8:50 pm

    Arms Race indeed……The repsective agents are looking to retire on this winter’s feeding frenzy…..

  350. CB November 26th, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    Pat,

    Tex wants 10 yrs/$200M – would you be in?

    If its the Sox vs. the Yanks then that’s where this is headed. Perhaps more. 10/220?

    In particular, if the yanks miss out on CC then the bidding on tex is going to be looney.

    Boras must be ecstatic.

  351. Joe from Long Island November 26th, 2008 at 8:57 pm

    I’ve been cathcing up on the posts here, as I got home a little bit ago…Some great reads.

    In regards to the Yanks’ needs for what CC and Tex each brings to the table…As CB pointed out, above, the Yanks have to consider their budget, but that may not be it.

    As has been pointed out on this blog in the past, and again by the notable Steve Phillips while on the Michael Kay show this afternoon, the insurance on these big contracts is a major consideration. And given what’s going on in the financial sector, and potential impact on insurance policies, the premiums may become totally prohibitive for the Yanks to take on BOTH CC and Tex. And if it’s prohibitive for the Yankees, then it must certainly be so for other teams.

    Any thoughts, anyone?

  352. PAT M. November 26th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

    When investing, one looks to the future and not to base that decision on the present situations…..

  353. CB November 26th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

    Joe,

    Underwriting insurance on pitchers is brutal. That’s one of the reasons I wasn’t sure if the angels would be all in on CC.

    No one is going to insure CC’s contract for 6 yrs at close to $25M per. You have to be willing to eat that amount in order to sign him.

    The insurance for Tex would be substantial I’d imagine. But the risk of the pitcher must be much, much more expensive to cover.

  354. Joe from Long Island November 26th, 2008 at 9:09 pm

    How much money are we talking? Say, what would be the annual premium for CC for 23M per year in salary? How would it compare to a position player?

  355. Yankee Trader November 26th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    “How much money are we talking? Say, what would be the annual premium for CC for 23M per year in salary? How would it compare to a position player?”

    Have no idea, and what solvent insurance company will take on the risk of any high paid athlete in todays market?

    By the way, the Yankees will be paying luxury tax at 40% on every dollar above 162 million this coming season, so Sabathia is costing them a whole lot more than 140M.

  356. Drive 4-5 November 26th, 2008 at 9:25 pm

    Obviously, the best thing that could happen is for the Yanks to get either CC or Tex and have Boston holding a bag of beans. Tex in Boston is something we really dont want to see. If it comes down to a war, the Yanks need to be in it to win.

    As much as I really really want Tex,CC has to be priority #1. Our rotation could be thin with CC. Without him it could be dreadfully thin.I’m not keen on either Burnett and Lowe at the terms they are looking for.

    I wish Brian Cashman good luck and I wish all of my fellow bloggers a safe and happy Thanksgiving.

  357. Joe from Long Island November 26th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

    Happy and Healthy to you, too, Drive 4-5.

  358. OldYanksFan November 26th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

    CB… Thanks…. very detailed explaination.

    I will say many stats are based on theory and not actual practice. It does seemed flawed at first… but upon thinking about it, here’s what I came up with.

    Last year, Matsui made a terrible play that eventually lead to 7 runs. Obviously, the pitcher contributued to this (after the error). Matsui may have personally been resposible for 1 or 2 runs. But in a defensive metric, he gets ‘credited’ for allowing the ‘typical’ amount of runs that score on an OF error, which is 0.7. So, in actuality, you and I watched the game and saw Matsui cost us 2 runs. Conversly, if he made an error and no runs scored, he still gets ‘credit’ for allowing 0.7 runs to score. So it’s not based on actual game situations.

    But maybe that is fair. Matsui made an error. It is just random coincidence that there were 2 out, and men on, and people actually scored, instead of a 3rd out recorded. If another OFer makes the same error, but no runs score, should he get a break? And not be ‘credited’ with some amount of runs scored?

    So it makes some sense. In measuring a players ability/effectiveness, why reward/penalize him based on the game situation?

    I am a believer in Stats, but I must admit, the more I understand many of them, the more I question how accurate they are. Stats have value, but as you said, some stats much more then others. It would be nice if each stat had a published ‘fuzz’ factor.

    I myself believe, that because a position player plays 155 games, that he might contribute more then someone who plays 32 games.

    I will say that in terms of CC vs Tex, I have an opinion, but no crystal ball. I consider the following.
    1) Greater chance of CC getting injured and losing effectiveness.
    2) The Yankee farm MAY have a number of MLB pitchers who are better then replacement level. Conversely, we have few position players
    3) I believe CC is more important then Tex is 2009. But 2010 and beyond? I’m not sure. Wang, Joba, Phil could be a very good 1-2-3. Next year we don’t have have ANY OFers signed. I don’t consider Nady (who will be an FA) or Swisher. If we get Tex, Swish becomes an ‘average’ OFer, and we have 2 slots to fill.
    4) If APPEARS CC doesn’t really want to pitch in NY. Does this matter? Did it effect RJ?

    Also, CC has been much better his last 2 years. Is this what will will get over the next 6 years? Or are they his ‘best years’ and never seen again?

    It is a tough call. CC, I think, represents more risk/higher reward.

    The Yankees have MANY holes to fill after this year. I hope we are not sacrificing the future for ‘we gotta win THIS YEAR!’. Next year, our (position players) team is ARod, Jeter, Cano, Posada and Swisher. ARod is good. Jeter? We hope. Po… if he isn’t a C, his position value as a DH is not that great and hurts flexibility. Cano and Swish? We can only hope they play up to their talent. But even if all 5 of these guys are good, we are still short a bunch of bats.

    Here’s my bottom line philosophy… and one I hope the Yanks follow. I like FAs and trades where we get good value. Even though Swish is not a great player, it was a very good deal because we gave up very little, we bought low, he is young and has upside. If all our aquisitions are this good, regardless of the ‘position’, the team has more value and gets better. If we continue, out of ‘desparation’ to overpay (in $$ and years) we eventually get worse.

    CC at 6/$130 is overvalued.
    I think Tex can be had for 8/$150. That’s overvalued too, but not as much, and a slightly safer bet.

    Bottom bottom line? My crystal ball is broken, so I just hope Cashman is smart, our team gets better, our talent plays better and smarter, and we get back in the PS.

  359. Patrick November 26th, 2008 at 9:43 pm

    I have a question. Why are the Red Sox out on Sabathia? It seems like he fits the team more than Teixeira does. They have an open spot in the rotation and an allstar 1B. Doesn’t Sabathia make more sense for the Red Sox?

  360. Aardvark November 26th, 2008 at 11:12 pm

    Theo would never pay $150 million for a 300 pound pitcher who has been a postseason bust, overworked, and doesn’t have the stomach to pitch East.

    Theo has his aces in Lester, Beckett, and Dice-K. All 3 are strikeout machines, 200 inning horses, and big game pitchers. All he needs is an innings eater to round out the back like Lowe and they’re set.

  361. pat November 26th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

    “What solvent insurance company will take on the risk of any high paid athlete in todays market?”

    Warren Buffett is the guy. There’s a division of Berkshire Hathaway that deals with mega-catastrophe coverage where premiums are in excess of $1 million dollars per year. They insure that which others won’t but it’s not cheap. They were the company that underwrote A-Rod’s Texas contract. Depending on the player involved, the premiums are sometimes so cost prohibitive that it is sometimes worth the gamble instead of the premium though. I read about it years ago but I think it was 15- 20% of what the estimated payout would be.

  362. pat November 26th, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    Aardvark

    A 300 lb. pitcher who doesn’t have the stomach sounds like an oxymoron to me.

  363. GreenBeret7 November 27th, 2008 at 1:05 am

    pat
    November 26th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
    “What solvent insurance company will take on the risk of any high paid athlete in todays market?”

    Warren Buffett is the guy. There’s a division of Berkshire Hathaway that deals with mega-catastrophe coverage where premiums are in excess of $1 million dollars per year. They insure that which others won’t but it’s not cheap. They were the company that underwrote A-Rod’s Texas contract. Depending on the player involved, the premiums are sometimes so cost prohibitive that it is sometimes worth the gamble instead of the premium though. I read about it years ago but I think it was 15- 20% of what the estimated payout would be.

    ———————————————————-

    Mega-catastrophe insurance? The perfect company for Carl Pavano.

  364. bru November 27th, 2008 at 9:30 am

    a 209 million dollar payroll minus 89 million is 120 million right now roughly.cc,tex,lowe will cost 58 million.

    178 million payroll after signing cc,tex,lowe.

    figure 10 million for arbitration raises=188 million.

    trade nady/swisher/matsui/damnon/bullpen arm & we will be at 180 million with tex at first base & cc & lowe.one or two of the above not all of them.

  365. bru November 27th, 2008 at 9:46 am

    if the red sox get tex they will be unbeatable.

    boston makes the right moves,the yankees do not.

    we get nady,they get bay,we get pavano they get becket,we get igawa they get dk.

    cashman has become too conservative & thinks too much.

    it is one thing to make moves & lower payroll but all these crappy moves & payroll is still climbing.

    the yankees always buy high & sell low.

    arod got his contract after an insane year & should not be getting 27-30 million a year for 10 yrs & how is jeter getting paid 19 million a year? ,posada 4 years? absolute insanity.

    burnett,sheets are huge risks & should not be signed.i would rather have pettitte,lowe,perez,at least they take the mound every 5th.

    tex imo is worth the money,he gives us more wins than burnett,sheets.

    sign cc,tex,lowe/pettitte,trade swish or nady for a cf or pitcher and call it an offseason.

  366. Doreen November 29th, 2008 at 11:37 am

    pat -

    If you are there -

    Yes, indeed we were in Disney World this week. Alas, we were not at the Magic Kingdom the same day as Johnny and Family, if in fact that photo was from this week. I can tell by the color of the sky in the photo. The only non-blue sky day was Tuesday, and we were at the Disney Hollywood Studios park. (It rained that morning, just a little.)

    Had I known JD was going to be there, I would have begged – BEGGED – my husband to switch our itinerary so we could do a Damon watch! (However, we were with a group of 21, so I probably would have been at risk of a total mutiny against me!)

    So no news on the Hot Stove front. I guess that’s good. I suspect it will begin heating up next week. Hopefully, anyway.

  367. Steve December 1st, 2008 at 1:23 pm

    Lebron said that the Yankees have all the offense in the world, so I don’t think it sounds like he knows his stuff.


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