New Stadium, same old greed
-
- November
- 30
As this story and this story reveal, the Yankees got into an e-mail scrap with NYC officials over a luxury box at the new Stadium.
Aides to Mayor Bloomberg wanted a free luxury suite and free food, the same deal they got from the Mets. The Yankees balked then gave in for a price: 250 free parking spaces and the use of three billboards along the Major Deegan. The team can presumably profit off those spaces and those billboards.
One of the city’s slickers asked whether they could take the word of Yankees president Randy Levine. “I don’t trust him,” replied former deputy major Dan Doctoroff.
While it reeks, it’s probably not illegal. Meanwhile, good luck trying to get into that suite if you work for city.
The Yankees and the Mets needed their new ballparks and they’ll be great for baseball fans. But we’ll be hearing for years about all the under-the-table dealings that went on and are probably still going on.
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on Sunday, November 30th, 2008 at 5:41 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
Now we know why he wnated a third term.
*wanted
down with Bloomberg!
Let them eat cake.
The funny thing about politicians is that THEY work for US.
Ever met anyone who felt that was actually true?
Somewhere… somehow… it all went wrong.
This is my favorite part:
“Lonn Trost, Yankees vice president, made the team’s position quite simple on Jan. 25, 2006: “For clarity, no seats, no suites, no tickets and, as they say in Brooklyn, ‘No Nothin’.”
That’s right Lonn Trost. No Nothin!
Politicians doing something shady?
In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning.
What I want to know is how can Citibank pay $400 million dollars for the naming rights of the new Met’s stadium? Citibank….one of the institutions needing government bail out!
“If my leg is fine, the gun ain’t mine.”
“If the accused is a nitwit, you must acquit.”
——————————————————————————-
“If you don’t buy my plea, hey don’t look at me”
Yup, 52 thousand people are out of a job, but Citi still thinks it is good business to shell out 20 million bucks to the Mets.
Pitchforks and Torches to the Gates!
Who says the Yankees needed a new ballpark?
Yes, the sight lines and concourse and office space at the new Yankee stadium will be an improvement, but the old girl was fine. It wasn’t a dump like Shea.
Did Carl Pavano not get a new Yanks contract because he wanted the team to throw in his own suite in the new place?
Only kidding …. oooooooooooooooooonly kidding …
Maybe the Yanks are trying to make up for all the money they paid Pavano, and they figure Bloomberg & Doctoroff are loaded enough to not mind covering the cost on the back end.
once again ….. oooooooooooonly kidding ….
I just dont get this big three talk – there is a big one which is cc. outside of that, there is two pitchers with great stuff and a bad injury history which is burnett and sheets. Everyone else, is on a large spectrum from ok to pretty horrible. i dunno why lowe would be considered the third best FA starter and i dunno where this big three came from considering the wide range that cc, aj and dl fall under. To me, CC is by far the best pitcher on the market. Sheets is the best bargain. AJ is the greatest risk with the highest reward if he actually pans out. Lowe is just one of about five other starters who can really only serve as an innings eater in the AL. I think Oliver perez is someone who could be considered better than lowe merely because he has a higher upside and is younger.
besides screwing over the fans and the public in general I dont see what this has to do with working for the people. Seems more like this deal worked against the people. The yanks get parking spots from the public which the public REALLY needs and the government gets a luxury box for free which is taken away from yankee fans and which taxpayers and fans probably payed for. Who gets screwed in the end? Only us,
Sheets will most likely end back with the Brewers since no team wants to take a chance with him so far.
I love how the only news that came out of this week was that the yanks might lose CC to the angels and the yanks might lose pettitte to the dodgers. The hot stove has become the boring and annoying stove. Other than that, there were just about ten rumors of signings that were all later debunked. And cc has not even contacted the yanks after being given the biggest contract offer for a pitcher in MLB history. I understand why he wouldnt jump at the offer but to not even discuss the offer with the yanks seems a little ominous to me. He could have atleast said thanks for the offer but i am waiting to see what the west coast teams offer me.
Ed,
To me, burnett seems just as big a risk as Sheets if not bigger. Considering they both have had a long history of injuries but only burnetts injuries seem completely related to each other.
hmmmmmmmmmmmm
600K-800K luxury box or…
250 parking spots x $25 parking x 81 games = $506,250
3 billboards @ $30,000 per month (probably more) x 12 = $360,000
LOL, they will end up making more money than if they kept the box.
Except for a plug from buddy Roy Oswalt, there hasn’t been much mention of Milwaukee Browers righty Ben Sheets so far this offseason.
According to the Boston Globe, there doesn’t appear to be much action on this high-risk (and sometimes high-reward) righthander.
Sheets could wind up going back to Milwaukee, but even the Brewers, who have experienced all of his injury history, might be leery without protection in his contract.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Sheets-may-have-no-choice-but-to-return-to-Brewe?urn=mlb,125498
JK-
what, are you a CPA?
Hopefully its back to work tomorrow for the Yanks FO. We need some FA’s its December already.
Al,
dont remind me tomorrow is December, the most expensive month ever to me. I got 5 birthday presents to get, along with X-Mas. ugh!!
“Al,
dont remind me tomorrow is December, the most expensive month ever to me. I got 5 birthday presents to get, along with X-Mas. ugh!!”
Sry to hear about that Ed. I alerted everyone in my family that I am broke and will not be buying them anything this year and I will not demand anything from them. Its a tough time right now. I can’t believe tomorrow is Dec. 1 and the biggest FA signing is Jeremy Affeldt.
Was a box set aside for Boss Tweed?
Al,
I’m broke as well. the only gifts I’m getting is only my nieces, and nephews. surpisingly, one of my nieces’ birthday is a week before X-Mas, so she is getting 2 gifts. sigh! besides them, my uncle is getting a gift since his birthday is also a week before X-Mas.
everyone got to born either before or after X-mas. -_-!
“Al,
I’m broke as well. the only gifts I’m getting is only my nieces, and nephews. surpisingly, one of my nieces’ birthday is a week before X-Mas, so she is getting 2 gifts. sigh! besides them, my uncle is getting a gift since his birthday is also a week before X-Mas.”
Well thats good. I’m lucky I am one of the youngest in my family so I don’t have to buy any toys for little ones etc. Damn 2 B-days in December? Mine isn’t til spring
Not certain how some of my fellow LoHud bloggers feel, but I think it’s great that both Ian & Phil had outstanding Fall League seasons….I view this as a fresh start to a lost 08 campaign……Like it or not, they are important clogs to the Yankees pitching future…..
Its amazing how Burnett puts up one good season in his walk year and has five teams begging for him even though he is making a ridiculous contract demand of 5 years for a guy who has been injured ten times in his ten year career and only seems to pitch well in his walk years (2005 and 2008.) Even though, Burnett has never been in an all star game and never even placed in cy young voting and even looking at his numbers this season, doesnt seem all that good.
Meanwhile Ben sheets has been selected to four all star teams in his eight year career as opposed to burnett’s 10 years in the majors and placed eighth in the cy young in 2004 has dominated hitters and been a master of control in his time in the MLB. Sheets is also two years younger than Burnett at 30 and pitched 200 innings 4 of his 7 years compared to burnett who pitched 200 innings 3 of his 10 years in the MLB. Burnett has also had ten injuries most of which have been interrelated while sheets has far fewer injuries most of which seem more like freak accidents and illness including shoulder, hamstring, lat muscle, IV disk, viral infection and groin. Sheets seems more likely to pitch through his injuries and less likely to sit out for mere pain rather than actual injury unlike burnett whos manager says he needs to learn the difference between pain and injury.
And while Burnett has a boatload of teams and ridiculous contract demands, sheets sits in the corner waiting to sign a one or two year deal for about 10 million per most likely. Why follow rational logic and intuition when you can just follow the bandwagon and pray you can sign burnett to five years and hope he stays healthy and does decent for atleast half that time? To me, sheets is the obvious low risk high reward signing here while burnett is the high risk high reward signing. And furthermore, the rewards seem higher for sheets than burnett when looking at the numbers. Perhaps, the GMS know more than we do but with a little injury like a torn elbow muscle that doesnt even require surgery, i dont see why their is soooo much hesistancy in talking with sheets. Esp when we need three FA pitchers to sign this off season.
The funniest part about all this is that if sheets were a free agent in 2004 after putting up three consecutive 200 inning seasons and being considered one of the best FA in baseball, some people may have laughed if someone said no one would be interested in him in four years or that Burnett is drawing more interest. In 2004, sheets finished eighth in the cy young voting and was the rising star of the mlb while burnett pitched 120 innings for florida. Even this season, by the all star break, sheets was starting the all star game and was 10 and 3 with an era of 2.85 while Burnett was 10 and 8 and had an era of 5. Even five months ago, sheets was far better than burnett and probably could have drawn much more interest at that point. Does this elbow injury impact sheets game that much? Is it more serious than multiple reports are claiming? Sheets was the best pitcher in the NL for the majority of the season last year – has things changed that much?
Al, more like 5 birthdays in Dec. lol
“Al, more like 5 birthdays in Dec. lol”
Geez.
I like ian kennedys numbers put igawa also put up very pretty stats against AAA competition last year. i want to see what he does in spring training before handing him a job in the majors like we did last year.
i like the idea of going with wang,joba,hughes,kennedy,acevez,giese,etc…..
i know we need pitching but i would not overspend under any circumstance.
it is about time the yankees stop getting ripped off.
i am a steelers fan & they never overpay and always let a player go when they command a big contract unless that player is worth it.
they always get players to replace the superstars when they leave & every year they are in the mix.
the yankees need to exersize the same strategy.if tex takes fair market value fine but if he want’s 10 yrs 250 million forget it.sabathia 6 yrs/140 max otherwise forget it.it takes the right mix of free agents & preospects.usually 4 or 5 starters from our own farm system & the rest free agents.
the red sox have pedroia,ells,lester,pap,youk with ells not playing a huge role yet.
I don’t care what happens under the table as long as they’re fixing a nice spread for CC on top of the table.
In other news:
If the gun don’t talk, I’m gonna walk!
burnett vs. sheets
ufc cage match.
winner gets the contract
With the economy in such shape I continue to be amazed that the people who pay the fright for stadia and players(the fans)are still willing to advocate tossing such high salaries at players.
I for one would rather see younger, cheaper players wear the NY logo.
“i like the idea of going with wang,joba,hughes,kennedy,acevez,giese,etc…..”
Yeah that sounds like a good idea. Lets throw out a AAA rotation with a veteran line-up. We need pitching depending too much on the young guys leads to disaster.
Sheets > Burnett for sure.
Without a doubt. There isn’t even a question.
I doubt that Cashman doesn’t realize this, too. Sheets 3 years, 39 million. Sounds good to me.
“With the economy in such shape I continue to be amazed that the people who pay the fright for stadia and players(the fans)are still willing to advocate tossing such high salaries at players.
I for one would rather see younger, cheaper players wear the NY logo.”
Ticket prices are going up regardless this season with the new stadium and all. If I am gonna pay 50 bucks to sit in the upper tier I at least want to watch a playoff caliber team. Also these “young, cheaper” players you are referring to do not exist above AA. Our best position prospect wont be ready til 2010.
Stay home until they lower the prices. They are not immune from recessions. They should feel it like the rest of us since we paid for the stadium with our tax free munis.
Al from BK
November 30th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
“i like the idea of going with wang,joba,hughes,kennedy,acevez,giese,etc…..”
Yeah that sounds like a good idea. Lets throw out a AAA rotation with a veteran line-up. We need pitching depending too much on the young guys leads to disaster.
————————————————————
we have wang,joba & if a fair trade or fa is available then i wouldn’t mind but a disaster is signing sheets,burnett,lowe,sabathia for 15-23 million dollars a year.cc not so much at 6/140 but if the yankees go to 150-160 wich is over market value considering the economy.now that will be a disaster.
teams have proven that this strategy is not needed to win.
i would also try to put a package together for a pitcher in addition to free agents if we sign any pitchers.
i don’t mind signing any fa as long as it is fair & burnett for 5 years is a ripoff,sheets for 3 also.
sheets for 2 & a team option for the 3rd year,burnett for 3 & an option,sabathia 6 yrs/145 topps.
we might be pleasantly suprised with our kids.
we should be patient,wait for the right players,keep collecting draft picks.
i would offer pettitte and abraeu arbitration.
Bru,
Two comments: One, that is the exact strategy the yanks went with last season – there were no major free agent pitchers and they passed on numerous big names that were offered up in trades like Santana and Haren. They handed kennedy and hughes a spot in the rotation before spring training even started along with pavano. Pavano was useless as usual, hughes was injured and ineffective and kennedy was demoted. The yanks were then forced to rely on a big season from Moose after wang went down which they thankfully got and even that wasnt enough to get us into the playoffs. We cant go into another season relying on 22 to 24 year olds who havent even really proven anything in the majors. They need time to work their way up and they cannot be relied on to give us wins because that is just too much pressure for kids. Last years antics, probably set hughes back an entire season and certainly didnt help kennedy. Both of them have to start in triple A and no one else is ready. Cashman made the mistake once and hughes and kennedy were blamed along with pavano of course. Cashman makes the same mistake twice – he will be blamed and harshly criticized i would hope despite his seemingly being free from guilt by the NY media,
Two, almost every one of our major farm talents in the MLB suffered last season because they were relied upon far too heavily. Cashman put all his money on hughes and kennedy and they fell apart. He also relied on wang to be healthy and win 19 games again. He relied on cano to continue to rise to superstardom. He relied on Melky to fill the hole in center and he relied on the bullpen to be almost completely filled internally. He also relied on minor leaguers to serve as the bench for the most part. Only the bullpen situation actually worked out for us. Cano regressed to worse than league average, Melky crumbled and wasnt even called up in september and kennedy and hughes went 0 and 8 and didnt win a game between them. And we finished in third place in the division six games out of the wildcard. That is what happens when you rely on minor league talent to fill all of your holes – you become the marlins.
We need a nice mix of young and old, quality free agent signings and rising prospects, superstars and grinders. I think we add CC, Sheets and one more big bat be it Tex or some other first baseman or center/rightfielder and we are golden. But 80 million came off the yanks books this off season – we lost two of our three biggest offensive threats of last season. The yanks are opening a new stadium, giving us worse seats and raising ticket prices annually. The yanks will break every record in the book next season regarding attendance and sales with exploding revenue from the YES network. The team has the money to fill our biggest holes which are starting pitching and a righthanded power bat who can bat third. They have the initiative and motivation to make sure we have a winning ballclub next year to open the new stadium right in front of the biggest most enthusiastic crowds ny has ever seen. Why this season would they lower payroll and not fill the holes that would make this club great again? Why would they want to embarass the fans and the organization with a losing product by not using the funds at their disposal. CC is the best free agent starter on the market and that is what the yanks need – with almost unlimited funds coming in next year and the yanks desire to win in the new stadium, the yanks should offer CC whatever he wants to show the fans that this season will not be like last year.
beachfan,
You would think it would be obvious as do I but it really does NOT seem like cash realizes how much better sheets is. From all reports, it doesnt seem like any GM realizes it unless we are missing something here. Our GM may be dumb but i guess they are all a little slow or they arent telling us something.
“we have wang,joba & if a fair trade or fa is available then i wouldn’t mind but a disaster is signing sheets,burnett,lowe,sabathia for 15-23 million dollars a year.cc not so much at 6/140 but if the yankees go to 150-160 wich is over market value considering the economy.now that will be a disaster.
teams have proven that this strategy is not needed to win.
i would also try to put a package together for a pitcher in addition to free agents if we sign any pitchers.
i don’t mind signing any fa as long as it is fair & burnett for 5 years is a ripoff,sheets for 3 also.
sheets for 2 & a team option for the 3rd year,burnett for 3 & an option,sabathia 6 yrs/145 topps.”
Obviously we should not sign 4 FA’s thats is absurd. I think CC and one other FA whether it be Pettitte or someone outside the organization would suffice. I think some of our prospects are talented enough to help out next year(Phil, Coke, Joba) however leaning on the likes of Aceves, IPK and Giese for steady production is very premature.
“Not certain how some of my fellow LoHud bloggers feel, but I think it’s great that both Ian & Phil had outstanding Fall League seasons….”
Pat,
It’s a positive for both – nice for them to go into spring with some momentum.
Hughes in particular. In his last 11 starts which go back to his two starts in the AAA playoffs, two starts in the bigs and his AFL work hughes he’s thrown 55 innings, with an era of 2.45 and struck out 75 hitters.
People are also severely shortchanging his AFL performance – mostly because they’re not familiar with what AFL ball is like and how extreme a hitter’s environment it is.
Hughes had an ERA of 3.00. He had one horrendous outing where he was pitching with a split nail. Take that outing out of the mix – and hughes had an era of around 0.90.
But even if you consider the era of 3.00 – you have to remember that the average ERA in the AFL is around 6.00. The era for the team hughes was pitching for was 6.83.
There were around 130 pitchers in the AFL. Around 115 of them were older than Hughes.
With Kennedy – I think we still need to see how his breakingball looks. What was strange about Kennedy’s year last year was how bad his curve and slider looked compared to the year before. That turned him into a very hittable 2 pitch pitcher and he just doesn’t have the stuff to get away with his fastball and change.
People who criticize him for having poor stuff last year are correct. That said, they are also not taking into consideration that the stuff he showed last year – especially his breaking pitches – wasn’t the same as what he showed the year before.
If kennedy gets back to throwing a quality curve and slider he’ll be ok. If he doesn’t he’ll get tatooed like we saw last year. Getting back those two pitches for him is critical.
Al, keep the flame broiler going, I think good CC news is coming.
And matsui has had a major injury two of the last three seasons and is 34 years old with bad knees and has lost the ability to play the field. Posada is a 37 year old catcher coming off a major shoulder injury (torn subscapularis) And cashman also foresees that these two will both have comeback years along with cano and swisher and that this seasons offense will be better than last years. One, i am just worried about posada and matsui staying healthy nevermind comeback years. Two, where is his evidence? Three, what are the chances that all of these can happen in the same season? This has made cash come to the conclusion that the offense is fine with swisher and gardner essentially replacing abreu and giambi for a full season. This along with the incessant talk about the big three being CC, AJ AND DL is the reason i think cash is a little slow. The big three doesnt even exist – there is the big one and everybody else with sheets prolly being the next best thing outside of cc. Lowe is atleast four free agent down if not more and doesnt even hold a candle to the kind of talent that sheets, Burnett and CC have.
Two things you never want to see made: sausage and law. Put the Yankee luxury suite faux controversy in the latter category.
Seriously, who cares about the luxury box or the parking spots and billboards. Do you have any idea how easy it is to make profit disappear off a balance sheet? As far as the City of New York and the Yankees are concerned, 6 or 7 hundred thousand dollars evaporates before it hits the ground.
Besides, can you imagine the field day that the NY Times and every other newspaper would have had if the Mets had to give the City a suite and the Yankees were excused? Imagine the howls of protest from NYS Assemblyman Dick Brodsky then – more proof that the Yankees and the City were in cahoots to defraud the IRS and us taxpayers! (the only people Brodsky cares about – right).
So why is Brodsky banging these pots and pans together?
Well, as a NYS Assemblyman, Dick has to run every two years and that is a real pain. And while the Democrats are about to take over NYS, and that would be good for Brodsky, there’s more going on. If, as expected, Hillary Clinton gets Secretary of State tomorrow, and current NYS Governor David Patterson appoints current NYS Attorney General Andy Cuomo to serve the remainder of Hillary’s US Senate term, then who knows… Dick Brodsky for NYS Attorney General?
“Al, keep the flame broiler going, I think good CC news is coming.”
I’ll try I’m sure this week will be eventful because its the last week prior to the winter meetings and the pressure is on.
I get that its the off season but my god when was the last time any news about anything came out. And on top of that I feel like this whole off season is being built around CC. I mean what happens when we dont get him? I dont see anything else out there that would make me feel good about this team going foward.
6/140 for cc is fine but 6/150 is a disaster? I find that hard to believe. We should get CC if all it costs is 10 million more total than our original offer – that is only 1.5 million more per season. Who cares? I think we need to sign CC, Pettitte and one more pitcher be it through Free agency or trade. we cannot go into the season with joba and phil already holding a spot in the rotation. Phil should step up when someone gets injured – which will happen multiple times as it does every season.
I fail to see how Burnett for 5 years is a ripoff and sheets for 3 years is a ripoff. I agree Burnett is a ripoff for five years but if you are willing to give burnett three years with an option than sheets for 3 wouldnt be a ripoff. He would probably sign for 2 with an option at less cost per year but sheets is clearly better than burnett. And even if he isnt better they are def on par with each other and just as injury prone. Difference is burnett will NEVER accept 3 years while sheets may even sign a 2 year deal.
Nick,
do you know something we don’t? lol
i agree kj – without CC even if we end up signing tex our entire purpose this off season of getting a frontline starter wont be met. There is no other pitcher even close to an ace outside of cc. This was the problem with going into this off season looking for three pitchers – an ace, third and fourth starter. Its too difficult to find all of those in one off season.
CB,
Was kennedy throwing the curve and slider in the winter league?
I have no information, but if I can finally get on a plane that leaves this craptabulous airport, anything is possible. And I’m halfway down the jetway. So be positive!
“I mean what happens when we dont get him? I dont see anything else out there that would make me feel good about this team going foward.”
“When we dont get him” Why the pessimism? I understand he hasn’t taken our offer yet but the time has come he will be signed before the winter meetings and LA still hasn’t made an offer. It has beem published everywhere that the Angels main goal is to keep Tex and if they do CC will be ours to lose.
CB, Your observations regarding Ian are right on…..He’s always had pinpoint control dating back to his HS / Connie Mack days….His inability to spot his curveball ( which is excellent ) led to disasterous hitter counts….The most important aspect to them both having outstanding instructional league campaigns is the renewal of confidence for both them as well as the organization…….I can easily see Phil having a good Spring in Tampa and joining the roattion sometime in May…..I still say the club needs to ink CC & Texeria….Pettite comes back and then the decisions on AJ & Sheets gets dicey….Sheets for 2-3 years would work….I’m guilty of being dazzled with AJ’s arm, but I’m also leary of the 4 year commitment…..
“Was kennedy throwing the curve and slider in the winter league?”
I haven’t seen any scouting reports on him. Just numbers. So I don’t know.
I’m sure he was throwing them – but I have no idea how well he was throwing them.
It’s an issue of the quality of those pitches for him.
That was why he was so bad this year. His slider an curve just weren’t quality pitches.
His command was bad because he was nibbiling. He was nibbling because his curve and slider weren’t effective and in turn he had to be too fine with his fastball and change.
If he can throw 4 pitches 3 of which are at least average to slightly above average with good command he’ll be a successful back of the rotation pitcher. But that’s what he needs to do.
Lack of progress or good news on CC we need like a bullet wound in the right thigh.
“His inability to spot his curveball ( which is excellent ) led to disasterous hitter counts….”
Pat,
I haven’t posted about this due to issues of small sample sizes but what the heck…
In 2007 Kennedy threw 19 major league innings. He threw 59% fastballs, 15% sliders, 9% curve balls and 16% change ups.
His pitch mixed changed significantly in 2008, reflecting the issues we’ve been discussing.
In 2008 he threw his fastball much more often – 68% and his slider much less often – only 9%. He continued throwing his curve ball at 9% and his change up at 16%.
The slider was the pitch that completely collapsed – he just lost all confidence in it. His curve ball command was also very bad – but I think the slider was even worse.
There is no way kennedy can survive throwing 68% fastballs.
For comparison AJ Burnett threw his fastball 64% of the time. For Kennedy to be forced into throwing more fastballs than burnett a guy with a 75-80 fastball is remarkable. Kennedy just completely lost confidence in his ability to throw his breaking pitches for strikes.
In turn, in 2007 Kennedy threw 66% of his first pitches for strikes.
In 2008 he only threw 57% of his first pitches for strikes.
There is no way he can survive pitching like that – and of course he didn’t.
The key is the quality of his breaking pitches. He needs to get back the sharper breaking slider he showed in 2007 and to improve his command of both the slider and curve.
Sometimes I think people just labeled his as a “nibbler” without really thinking through why he was nibbling.
There was a reason – he completely lost his breaking stuff – and both the curve and slider are pitches he’s thrown effectively in the past.
AL I wasnt trying to say we have no shot at signing him its just I feel that we as Yankee fans have become obsessed with the idea of CC on the Yankees. And my point is what would it mean moving foward if we fail to sign him. The FA class does nothing for me. I dont think just because we dont get CC we should give guys like AJ and Lowe the world. IMO that would be a mistake. I also think we want CC so bad because we know how bad we need him. As for the Angles I have read they might match the Yankees 140 for 6. Now that is yet to be seen some people think it is the Angels way of getting Tex to hurry up and sign with them. My feeling is that all LA has to do is offer him more money than the Santana deal and he will be an Angel.
I said this yesterday and I’ll say it again. IPK is not worth the attention hes getting. He is an average pitcher with a good make-up and pedestrian stuff. He has had success throughout the minors by out-smarting his opponents with an array of breaking stuff and craftiness. However to succees in the majors you needs stuff and smarts he only has one of the 2. Can he be a decent back end starter eventually? Yes, but he is not the future of this team as far as finding a front-end guy goes. As far as I’m concerned Phil/Joba are going to be good front-end guys at some point IPK is sort of the odd-man out.
CB,
What is the difference in velocity in Kennedy’s pitches? Isnt part of the problem that there isnt much change in velocity no matter what pitch he throws?
Alvaro,
I say Ben & AJ arm wrestle for it.
CB,
Great post about the “rookies” and their winter. Brackman also had a successful rookie campaign, ie actually pitching. Bleich was a very pleasant surprise as well.
In Hughes’ case, people forget that he was pitching with a broken rib. Hughes is definitely a case where the AFL scouting reports speaking louder than the stats.
“AL I wasnt trying to say we have no shot at signing him its just I feel that we as Yankee fans have become obsessed with the idea of CC on the Yankees. And my point is what would it mean moving foward if we fail to sign him. The FA class does nothing for me.”
I think if we fail to get CC, then we will trade for a pitcher and sign Tex as the big ticket FA instead. Cash has a lot up his sleeve trust me there is a back-up plan should we not get CC.
“What is the difference in velocity in Kennedy’s pitches? Isnt part of the problem that there isnt much change in velocity no matter what pitch he throws?”
Compared to the velocity he showed in 2007 when he was called up, there was no significant change in Kennedy’s velocity at all. Nearly every pitch he throws was about the same velocity as it was in 2007 when he came up and threw well.
Kennedy’s average fastball was 89 mph. His change is around 79-80. So that’s a difference of around 9-10 mph. That’s a nice differential in velocity – not great – but a 10 mph split between a fastball and change is very respectable. For comparison the difference between Johan Santana’s fastball and change is around 11 mph.
Sure it would be great is he could generate differentials of around 12-13 mph – but Kennedy doesn’t have that kind of fastball. 10 mph or so is fine – as we can see from Santana.
It’s not velocity that changed for Kennedy. It was the quality of the movement and command for his breaking pitches.
As an aside Joba is able to generate differentials velocity from fastball to change up of close to 15 mph. Just unbelievable. If his arm motion stays similar hitters will have absolutely no chance. I hope in the future Joba becomes more of a fastball change pitcher and less of a fastball slider pitcher as its less stressful on the arm…
Anybody notice who the familar name was that lost in Kennedy’s game was?
Old friend, “The Admiral”, Brad Halsey.
mel
November 30th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Alvaro,
I say Ben & AJ arm wrestle for it.
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Left arms, only, please.
“Brackman also had a successful rookie campaign, ie actually pitching.”
mel,
Thanks. Appreciate it.
When guys come back from TJ the first thing you cross your fingers about is velocity.
Does it come back? Is something lost.
In some cases – pitchers gain velocity.
And that’s what we saw with Brackman. When he was a junior at NC state Brackman’s velocity was down a bit – 93-94. I was hoping that was related to pain in his elbow that he wasn’t admitting to.
In Hawaii he was sitting 95+ and regularly up to 97-98. I was thrilled to see that.
TJ goes well for many but it’s no guarantee. I was hoping Humberto Sanchez would also get a bump in velocity. Unfortunately, his velocity has not come back yet. He’s been throwing in the high 80’s low 90’s. Still early.
Sean Henn was something of a thorn in the side for many yankee fans. But people forget how talented he was as a prospect. Left handed and could hit 98-99 regularly. In his draft class he had one of the highest recorded fastball velocities.
After his TJ surgery he never recovered his velocity or command.
Brackman has the velocity. We’ve got to hope he’ll develop the command. That’s usually the last thing to come back.
But for right now – it looks like Brackman’s gained velocity from where he was as a junior in college.
I just think it’s insane to toss aside a kid who’s only been in organized ball for two years….A kid who was a first round pick, was Minor Legue Pitcher of the year….The smart approach is to work with him, regain some confidence, and take a wait and see approach ….As CB has pointed out he’s a pitcher and not a thrower….He has a great repotoire, he needs to fine tune it and he’ll be rotation contributor in the lines of 14-15 wins a season…..Patience is not a genetic imprint for many Yankee fans….
CB
November 30th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
As an aside Joba is able to generate differentials velocity from fastball to change up of close to 15 mph. Just unbelievable. If his arm motion stays similar hitters will have absolutely no chance. I hope in the future Joba becomes more of a fastball change pitcher and less of a fastball slider pitcher as its less stressful on the arm…
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Seems that Chamberlain, Hughes and even Kennedy would be perfect students for Professor Rivera’s class on cutters.
I think we should take the first 10-12 outings (at most) of a pitcher’s career, decide their value for the next several years and trade them away as if they’re destined to be bums.
Given that, Aaron Small should be the ace of the staff now, right? And Mariano should have been cut back in ‘95, right?
GB7,
I think Hughes adding a cut fastball to his arsenal could just be enormous for him.
Some pitchers really pick the pitch up quickly and it transforms their games. Just look at how it helped John Danks this year.
I think that was the perfect move to make in Hughes development. He’s taken the pitch and he says he feels very comfortable with it.
That would give him a third pitch which was one of the major obstacles to his development. His change is probably good enough to be a 4th pitch. It was that 3rd pitch he was missing.
I’ve been wondering if Kennedy might benefit from a cutter. I think it’s something to consider if he continues to have trouble with his slider.
Joba – well Joba needs nothing other than innings and health. His stuff is phenomenal. If you were to draw up the ideal young pitcher he’s pretty much what you get. Best slider in baseball. Arguably the best fastball in the game. And an outstanding curve and a good change. Hitters get very little lift on his pitches.
I do hope he throws his slider less. At times he gets overly reliant on it. To throw a slider at that velocity is stressful on this arm. I’d like to see him rely more on his curve and change and save this slider for strike out situations.
We really shouldn’t seem so surprised, the new stadium is about greed and nothing but greed. It certainly isn’t about the fans. As a season ticket holder, I’ve seen the price of my seats (9 rows from the field, about mid-way between 1st base and the RF wall) rise from $40 in 2003 to $80 in 2008. Now, because of all of the luxury seats added to the field box area, I’ve been relocated to section 106, 15 rows behind the RF wall, looking at the fielders backs. No thanks, I turned them down. I did get some pleasant phone calls from a NYY sales person offering me a chance to buy seas in the Legends Suites for a mere starting price of $850 per seat, multi-year commitment required. Real fans are being pushed out to make way for the New York Yankee Martini bar crowd. Lets see how crowded the martini bar is after a couple of losing seasons. Of course, I really hope that doesn’t happen, because even though I hate what’s happening, I still love this team.
i DONT think cashman has anything up his sleeve because we know most of the scenarios already. There cant be many surprises out there. Either we sign CC and another FA pitcher outside of Pettitte or we sign Tex and try to trade for someone or we sign Tex and sign AJ/Sheets and some bum or we try to sing Tex/Manny and cash starts talking up the kids saying how this year will be different. Cash is not the brilliant mastermind people make him out to be. Most of the time, it seems like he is trying to do the same thing everyone else is trying to do which is sign the biggest and hottest names like AJ and Lowe for example even if it is pretty apparent they will be giant wastes of money. And then, in a couple of years fans will say well cash cant be blamed because everyone wanted AJ and Lowe like some did today about pavano. Well, i SAY not everyone wants AJ and lowe because I certainly dont want either one of them. i WASNT really too high on pavano and wright either just because they were talked up by their agents and the FA market was weak.
“Patience is not a genetic imprint for many Yankee fans….”
When it comes to Ian Kennedy, I think the naysayers deserve the benefit of the doubt. I do think that after watching IPK and Kei Igawa, the fans became jaded.
Kennedy was stupidly handed a rotation spot on a silver platter. The expectations were high because folks actually believed that the people who make roster decisions would not have rushed him if he wasnt ready. We all know what happened. It’s not neccessarily just Yankee fans that need to be patient.
Also, until he was sent back to the minors IPK was arguably the worst starting pitcher in the major leagues last year. Folks need to forget that and hope he can learn to get major league hitters out and help us. No reasonable person would say that he’s never going to be any good.
Buck Foston,
I’m really sorry to hear about your ticket plight.
I havent received my relocation info yet. I’m not exactly looking forward to receiving it. We had great seats in Tier Section 2 that were $18 only 3 years ago and $27 this year. I’m afraid that we’re going to be offered Grandstand seats that are no where near as good as the seats we lost.
I’ll base my opinion of the new Stadium on 2 criteria. 1. Affordability and 2.Distance from the field our seats are.
Real fans could care less about the amenities in the luxury suites.
Drive 4-5….You’re right….I do think linking Ian to Igawa is not fair…..As for being given a spot in the rotation, injuries dictated that….Wang, Pettite, Mussina, Pavano were the given top four starters….The fifth was either Hughes, Kennedy , Igawa, Karstens, Rasner or Klippard….Granted Hughes and Kennedy both coming off outstanding September outings had the inside track….Igawa was expected to be much more than he turned out to be….Heavy investment in Yankee Dollars just about assured a spot….I remember his first start vs. Pittsburg as he walked the bases loaded and then whiffed the last three hitters…I had a bad feeling about him and his desire to pitch up in the zone…..
CB, you’ve seen it all before. Some pitchers just have that coachability thing going for them, and those three kids have it. I always think about Sparky Lyle and Ron Guidry back during spring training of 1977 when Martin and Steinbrenner wanted Guidry gone.
Lyle was talking to Guidry in the bullpen and he asked Lyle how he threw the slider. Lyle showed him the technique but told him to figure out the best way to hold it himself, mostly because Guidry had much smaller hands. Lyle said that within 5 minutes, Guidry was snapping off sliders better than any that Lyle threw. The phone rang and Lyle told Martin that he couldn’t pitch, but, let Guidry pitch, because he had something to show him. Lyle said Guidry threw two innnings and had control of the best sliders he ever saw…and strangely, it improved his control on his fastball (confidence).
Martin still wanted Guidry gone. He called Guidry, gutless. Martin had a great baseball mind but was clueless when it came to pitchers. Anyway, Gabe Paul and Al Rosen refused to trade him, especially after Bob Lemon called and proposed a trade of minor leaguers. Lemon mangled Guidry’s name, but Rosen said he knew that Lemon knew who Guidry was. Rosen called Lemon a few choice names and they both hung up laughing about Lemon trying to pull a fast one.
Anyway, that’s a long way around what you said….these three kids could pick up this pitch and especially in Hughes and Kennedy’s case, completely transform their careers.
“and strangely, it improved his control on his fastball (confidence).”
One of the things I’ve found really interesting about Joba is how he views his slider.
On a number of occassion’s he’s said that it is his slider which is the pitch that helps him improve his control if he loses the plate.
Throwing his slider gets him back to his proper release point. I think that’s part of the reason why he throws it so often.
Hughes is going to be good, particularly given the strides he’s made in adding the cutter as a third pitch. That third pitch was the last major barrier for him in terms of stuff.
On Kennedy – who really has become a lightning rod with yankee fans for some reason. Currently, the yanks are looking to pay someone up to $64M to be an above average #4 starter.
If Kennedy can throw his breaking pitches the way he showed he could in 2007 then there’s a good chance he becomes a good #4. That saves a lot of money.
That guidry slider was something else. Amazing how one pitch can turn around a career. Wang’s 2 seamer – perfect example.
One of the first baseball games I remember was seeing Steve Carlton pitch.
I remember him throwing a slider – I didn’t know anything about the game. But I came away sort of shaking my head wondering how any person could possibly hit that pitch as it just seemed to disappear.
I think Pat M has a good story about the time he faced Carlton…
CB, exactly. Carlton’s and Guidry’s sliders were the equivilant of Koufax’ unbelievable curveball. It broke like Blyleven’s but came in at the high 80’s and low 90s. When it was working during the last 6 years of his career (and that was about 99% of the time), hitters had zero chance. Eventually, most hitters will hit the fastball, regardless of how hard it is. Throw something that has a wrinkle in it, and the hitter is dead. Koufax always said it was his curve and not the fastball that was his strikeout pitch.
Drive 4-5, thanks for your well-wishes and good luck with your seat relocation. The tier season ticket holders I know have been happy with their reloc…not sure how it’ll shake out for the partials.
Yeah Steve Carlton whiffed me on three pitches….I had never seen anything quite like that before…Ball just kept coming in on me and then the bottom would fall out….As for Guidry, our paths crossed breifly in 71 in the Florida instructional league…I ran a flat 10 in the hundred out of HS…He was faster and he could dunk a basketball….
I did see something similar to Carlton’s slider, but it was whiffle ball at half the speed…..
PAT M
November 30th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Yeah Steve Carlton whiffed me on three pitches….I had never seen anything quite like that before…Ball just kept coming in on me and then the bottom would fall out….As for Guidry, our paths crossed breifly in 71 in the Florida instructional league…I ran a flat 10 in the hundred out of HS…He was faster and he could dunk a basketball….
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Evening, Pat. Yeah, everyone always said that NYY’s best center fielder during that time was Guidry. He even played center field in a major league game. Faster than Rivers and could hit. Reminds me of Mantle having foot races with Pedro Ramos back in the late 50s and early 60s. Mantle said that Ramos could always keep up with him until the last 5-6 steps. Ramos was another great hitting pitcher.
The most irritating thing is to see Rudee Julie Annie sitting in a box next to the Yankee dugout.
The same guy that wanted to see Boston win the WS in 2007.
TURNCOAT ! . . . Phony !