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Why the hot stove has been so cold

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Nov 30, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The hot stove season has been pretty uneventful so far beyond a few trades and Ryan Dempster re-upping with the Cubs. There are several reasons for this:

1. Scott Boras represents 14 free agents including Manny Ramirez, Mark Teixeira and Derek Lowe. Scott tends to wait before making deals, believing (quite correctly) that prices rise as teams get desperate.

2. Some teams seem to be waiting to see what players are offered arbitration on Monday. Draft picks are more valuable than ever and GMs want a better sense of that landscape.

3. The pitching market won’t get moving until CC Sabathia makes his decision.

4. The state of the economy probably has had some owners telling their GMs to hold back.

This is setting up what could be a very eventful Winter Meetings in Las Vegas. They get started on Dec. 8.

 
 

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145 Responses to “Why the hot stove has been so cold”

  1. dave November 30th, 2008 at 5:13 am

    soo boring … cant wait. How can teams start to get desparate if none of the big free agents are signing. And if all of them are Boras clients anyways then, his strategy wont really work this off season.

    I really think cashman is waiting for CC to make his decision and that the yanks really have no backup plan if CC does not sign. They probably are pretending to write something on paper that may appear to be a backup plan but the truth is cashman didnt sign or trade for a single useful free agent starter last off season (other than re-signing) and now we are forced to find three starters from somewhere. The mistake of relying on Hughes, Kennedy and pavano last off season are biting us in the butt twice-once during the season and now again in the off season.

    Moreover, we need them to be quality guys. Frankly, CC is the only safe (or safest) pick out there and the only one that really fits the bill as a top of the rotation guy. Burnett and sheets have the potential but CC is far more likely to actually do so.

    Additionally, the more i think about it the more i realize that Burnett and Lowe would be huge mistakes. They would serve as more names to add to the laundry list of cashman free agent pitching blunders. Sheets on the other hand while being risky is the much safer choice. He has better stuff, comes at a much cheaper price and at many many less years. There are many rumors that he could possibly accept a two year deal and 3 would certainly do the trick. Burnett wants five years which is ludicrous and Lowe wants the money of a second or third starter even though he will probably pitch more like a AAAA starter.

    Finally, it amazes me how many mistakes cashman has made while people still believe he is one of the best GMs in the sport. Just Igawa and Pavano alone are both on the list of two of the worst pitching signings in history and he played a big role in both of them. And giving cano a huge contract last season was not only almost completely against yankee tradition but may very well have resulted in his total and utter collapse last season – shockingly, no ny MEDIA has really mentioned that because cashman is apparantly some combination of mother theresa and jesus christ to them.

    This doesnt even include the hundreds of other mistakes in the brian cashman era like Kevin Brown, Jared Wright, Randy Johnson, Kyle Farnsworth, Javy Vazquez, Jose Contreras and others. It is also highly possible that giving posada four years may have been a tad long for a catcher in his late 30s. i dont think these contracts are supposed to represent what the player has given us rather than what they will give us during the legnth of the contract.

    I also noticed that Tabata did a complete 180 after leaving the yankees – not cashmans fault Im sure but perhaps someone in the organization is to blame for tabata doing horrendous on the yanks, going to pittsburgh and playing the best ball of his career that same season. Having total faith in pavano last year to fill a spot in the rotation along with hughes and kennedy may have been just another in cashmans long history of miscalculation. Doing this also rushed hughes and kennedy into the majors resulting in both of them doing horribly and getting injured.

    Most knew they were too young and inexperienced for a rotation spot and this move may very well have set both of their careers back a season. Relying on melky to fill center was another mistake as is believing that the current lineup on paper right now is already better than last years lineup as cashman apparently thinks.

    I dunno if swisher and gardner can replace giambi and abreus numbers nor do i think we can bank on a full season from posada and matsui and a great season out of cano without anyone else getting injured. To make these assumptions would be a HUGE mistake. I also like how arod came crawling back to NY because he wanted to come back to the yanks and to really stick it to him and punish arod for opting out and forcing the yanks to lose all of the rangers salary costs, cashman the brilliant negotiator gave him everything arod wanted and more.

    I realized that almost every single one of our younger guys from the minor leagues and even some of the ones in the minor leagues took a step back last season (cano, melky, wang, cox, hughes, kennedy, kontos, sanchez, both Duncans and tabata before leaving the organization) and none of the free agents in recent memory have performed better after cashman signed them like the yankees of old – Bruney is really the only one that comes to mind. He better start earning this new contract because as far as i can tell, our GM has only been leading the organization in the wrong direction for the last year or so.

  2. bardos November 30th, 2008 at 5:39 am

    i like a ben sheets signing. but only if milwaukee offers him arbitration. if they don’t, it means they know something about his elbow that no one else does,.

  3. sevrox November 30th, 2008 at 5:52 am

    You anti-Cashman folks amaze me – how could Cashman know both Pavano and Igawa would “spit the bit”?

    They had pitched well up to that point in their careers and then hit that mesmerizing void of non-usefullness. Buying pitchers with a history of pitching well doesn’t mean Cashman eph’d up – it means the pitchers eph’d up once they got to New York – not Cashman’s fault.

    The colder the stove gets, the more cannibalistic Yankee fans get.

    Fan since ’67.

  4. Gil L November 30th, 2008 at 6:06 am

    i too have been amazed for so long at how criticism-safe cashman is. operating with the biggest budget in baseball he took over a championship team in the late 90′s and turned into a 3rd place team. that’s a fact. if you want to argue for cashman, please adhere to the facts.

    let me quote a post i saw here a few weeks ago:

    theo gets schilling, cashman gets randy
    theo gets dice-k, cashman gets igawa
    theo gets beckett, cashman gets pavano
    and there was another example i forgot…

    the fact is, the yankees have the biggest budget, the newest stadium, the most expensive players. they can’t afford to have the 3rd or 4th best GM in their OWN DIVISION.
    (theo is much better, we all know. riccardi is doing a lot in toronto, creating the best rotation in the division – again, check the numbers. tampa bay, well, results speak for themselves…)

    p.s. dave, make note of the small moves that make or break a GM, see how many of those cashman fumbled. e.g., letting carlos pena walk away for mothing. lucky we don’t need a power hitting slick fielding 1b… oh, wait…)

  5. Jake November 30th, 2008 at 6:14 am

    Kevin Brown was pitching great, when Cashman got him, its not his fault Brown got off injured, and didn’t recover. And the trade itself wasn’t bad. You want Jeff Weaver, Yhency Brazoban (and his surgeries), and some no name back?

    Everyone wanted Carl Pavano, infact some teams offered him more money. Pitching is risky, and we obviously paid for it, but there was no way anyone could forsee that he’d be useless for 4 years.

    Kei Igawa was just a reaction thing to losing out on Dice-K, and most probably because Steinbrenner wanted it. Not giving him up, when SD claimed him, now that was a mistake.

    Everyone loved Jeff Weaver when we got him. Infact, I still remember Peter Gammons on ESPN saying that other GMs were astonished that the Yankees got a future ace that cheaply. Again, didn’t develop like everyone thought.

    Ditto with Javy Vazquez, everyone had him tagged as a breakout pitcher, yet it didn’t happen.

    Every GM does things that don’t pan out. Bille Beane sent Carlos Pena, Jermey Bonderman, and Franklyn German for basically Ted Lily.

    Its hard to get the surefire pitchers via trade. No one trades a Joba Chamberlain unless there is some SERIOUS talent coming back. Cashman didn’t have talent in the minors to trade, so he made efforts to build up his minors.

    The Yankees didn’t have much to trade for a Beckett or make a move on a Jason Schmidth back in the day. So they had to go for more risky moves, and obviously that hasn’t worked out so well.

    Cashman is doomed if he passes on pitchers who are getting older and wants to develop young pitchers, and he’s damned if he signs old pitchers who break down.

  6. Chris November 30th, 2008 at 7:09 am

    “p.s. dave, make note of the small moves that make or break a GM, see how many of those cashman fumbled. e.g., letting carlos pena walk away for mothing. lucky we don’t need a power hitting slick fielding 1b… oh, wait…)”

    People do realize that Pena chose to leave, right????

    He signed a minor league contract with us in April of ’06. He played 105 games at AAA, didn’t exactly smash the cover off the ball, I might add. He had a CLAUSE in the contract he signed that stated if he wasn’t called to the main roster by a certain date, he had the right to exercise his right to be a free agent. We didn’t call him up, because a guy batting .260 in the minors doesn’t exactly warrant a call up, so he chose to become a free agent. If you wanna smash Cashman for “letting Pena walk”, might as well do the same for Theo, because he “let him go for nothing” too.

  7. Mike S. November 30th, 2008 at 7:35 am

    Regarding Tabata, how is it Cashman’s fault when the player acts like a child?

    If Tabata acts immature at Trenton, what would happen when he got to New York? Eventually the Yanks got tired of Tabata’s act and therefore he dropped off the untouchable list.

    Maybe at Altoona Tabata grew up a little. Maybe not. Granted he’s still only 20, but there is and there isn’t a way to conduct yourself, and Tabata’s actions were inexcusable.

    You can blame Cashman for different things, but don’t blame him for a players’ bad behavior.

  8. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 8:04 am

    dave
    November 30th, 2008 at 5:13 am
    soo boring … cant wait. How can teams start to get desparate if none of the big free agents are signing. And if all of them are Boras clients anyways then, his strategy wont really work this off season.

    ———————————————————–

    Just think, Dave…in about a week, you’ll have enough things to whine about to last out the winter. Players that Cashman traded for or didn’t trade for and free Cashman signed or didn’t sign and all of the players that Cashman didn’t stop Boston from signing or trading for. You should be in hog heaven.

  9. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 8:16 am

    Chris
    November 30th, 2008 at 7:09 am
    “p.s. dave, make note of the small moves that make or break a GM, see how many of those cashman fumbled. e.g., letting carlos pena walk away for mothing. lucky we don’t need a power hitting slick fielding 1b… oh, wait…)”

    People do realize that Pena chose to leave, right????

    He signed a minor league contract with us in April of ‘06. He played 105 games at AAA, didn’t exactly smash the cover off the ball, I might add. He had a CLAUSE in the contract he signed that stated if he wasn’t called to the main roster by a certain date, he had the right to exercise his right to be a free agent. We didn’t call him up, because a guy batting .260 in the minors doesn’t exactly warrant a call up, so he chose to become a free agent. If you wanna smash Cashman for “letting Pena walk”, might as well do the same for Theo, because he “let him go for nothing” too.

    ———————————————————–

    Hard to believe that people are still complaining about Pena. 5 other teams besides NYY have released him and before Tampa signed him, 29 other teams passed him up. It’s not exactly like cashman missed on getting a player that finally figured it out at 29 years of age.

  10. Yankee Trader November 30th, 2008 at 8:17 am

    Pete and others-

    Offer arbitration to Type A Abreu- if he accepts at worst he’s with us for one more year at a minimum of 12.8 million.

    Offer arbitration to Type A Pettitte-if he signs with the Dodgers we get their 17th pick and a supplemental pick. If he accepts the least an arbitor will give him is 80% of 16M= 12.8M.

    Do not offer arbitration to Pudge, a Type B. Boras might convince him to accept, because he’d still get 10 million to be a backup to a backup!

    As a formality offer arbitration to Mussina, a Type A.

    We need quality starting pitching and a better bench.

    Big concerns about Burnett and length of contract, Lowe [ who is nowhere close to Wang in ability] and Sheets out with a supposedly “muscle” injury near his elbow [future TJ surgery candidate?]

    Suggest that the Yankees secure another lefty pitcher-Randy Wolf could be a solid pickup who regained arm strength and at age 32, would be a better deal then Lowe. Astros were interested but now claim fiscal restraints.

    Astros also looking to unload arbitration eligible Ty Wiggington, who can play multiple positions.

    Any thoughts?

  11. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 8:17 am

    Correction: ***It’s not exactly like cashman was the only one that missed on***

  12. Jake November 30th, 2008 at 8:45 am

    Pudge should be offered arby. No way Boras lets him accept it. He will be gunning for the last multi-year deal of his career.

  13. Steve November 30th, 2008 at 9:11 am

    You cannot blame Cashman on Vazquez, Weaver, Pavano, and Contrearas. Those were good moves. If Cashman did not make those moves everyone would have been highly critical that he failed to make moves. I cannot defend Cashman on Igawa. I am not sure what the Yanks saw in him. I do not fault Cashman on Randy Johnson. That was a good move. RJ did have two 17 wins seasons for us so it is hard to say that he did not produce. He just wasn’t RJ of past fame.

    No one seems to bring up Moose. That was a Cashman move. That is probably one of the few long term contracts for a free agent pitcher that has worked. Lets hope that a CC move can match or exceed that and not become a Zito type move.

    Kevin Brown and Jaret Wright were moves made out of desperation after losing Pettite, Clemens and Wells. They were high risk moves and we did not get much out of either player. Farnsworth was the best of a limited number of relief pitcher options available. He seemed to do better with Girardi as manager than Torre.

    I think all of these moves show that there are no guarantees on pitching and that all pitchers are gambles. That is why there is a major move on trying to develop pitching from within and why Cashman is on the right path with beefing up farm system with the likes of Hughes, Kennedy, Melancon, Coke, Brackman and many others. We stand a good chance of developing young pitchers than relying solely on free agent moves and trades.

    Pitching Gambles that worked for us include: Small, Chacon, and Bruney. To a certain extent we did get some value out of Sidney Ponson who was adequate in the #5 hole. Those are Cashman moves that panned out.

    If I can be critical of Cashman moves I would have to say that he overestimated his bench last season. We had a weak bench.

    On the trade front, I thought Cahsman did a great job when he traded for David Justice in 2000. He came through again with trades for Abreu and Nady. Those were good moves. I think that the Swisher move will also prove to be a good value move for the Yanks in 2009. This suggests that there are more guarantees with position players vs. pitchers.

    I think that too many Yankee fans are arm chair quarterbacks and like to blame Cashman for moves that do not work out even though they probably like the moves when they are made. I rather have a GM who has a plan and is constantly looking to make this team do better. The fact that the Yanks have been a playoff team from 1995-2007 speaks well for Cashman and his predecssors.

    Cashman is looking this off season to strike a healthy balance between developing players from within and filling other needs via free agency and trades. If we sign CC everyone will be jumping for joy until he loses a game or two and then people will be blaming Cashman for spending so much money on CC.

    I am fine with Cashman. I wish everyone else would not have a revisionist view of his moves. They blame him when moves do not work and rarely give him credit for moves that do work.

  14. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 9:34 am

    Steve
    November 30th, 2008 at 9:11 am

    If I can be critical of Cashman moves I would have to say that he overestimated his bench last season. We had a weak bench.

    ———————————————————–

    There’s a good reason why the bench was weak in 2008….they were playing. What passed as a bench were third stringers from the minor leagues that nobody else wanted.

  15. DisabledMess November 30th, 2008 at 9:46 am

    I really think the Yankees should spend a whole bunch of money on free agents because it worked so well from 2001 to 2008.

  16. sevrox November 30th, 2008 at 9:52 am

    gil:

    “theo gets schilling, cashman gets randy
    theo gets dice-k, cashman gets igawa
    theo gets beckett, cashman gets pavano”

    Again – there’s nothing wrong with these pitchers prior to coming to NY – they became the mistake they became after arriving – not Cashman’s fault.

    The only thing Cashman should be blamed for is not developing the “Myers-Briggs Do-You-Have-The-Stones-To-Pitch-In-New-York-For-The-Yankees Personality Test.”

  17. Squints November 30th, 2008 at 9:57 am

    Back up plan for no Tex:

    ADAM DUNN BABY.

  18. RER - 98 November 30th, 2008 at 9:58 am

    . Scott Boras represents 14 free agents including Manny Ramirez, Mark Teixeira and Derek Lowe. Scott tends to wait before making deals, believing (quite correctly) that prices rise as teams get desperate.

    . . . . . . . .

    I agree Peter. The only difference this year will see teams not paying quite as desperately as in past years.
    The waiting game won’t serve Boras like he thinks with the economy being what it is.

  19. Squints November 30th, 2008 at 10:00 am

    All you Cashman detractors: look at the Swisher deal again. Go ahead. Look at it. The Yankees FLEECED the White Sox in that trade to the point where a friend of mine in Seattle still thinks there was collusion. Cashman knows what he’s doing.

  20. bru November 30th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    the yankees might be better off not signing any of the pitchers,cc,burnett,lowe,etc…

    to much money & it never works plus 5 or 6 years is a huge risk.

    we might be ok with kennedy,hughes,melky & our farm system,you never know.

    i would much rather sign tex if it is no more than 6 yrs/20 million a year,if he want’s more i pass.

    hughes & kennedy are entering a second phase & i believe at least hughes is going to suprise a lot of people.

    i also if i were the yankees not raise the sabathia offer unless another team topps or equals it.offer abraeu arbitration,if he takes it trade matsui & dh abraeu,offer pettitte arbitration also.the picks are just to important.

    we are in a very tough spot that took years to create.we were not proactive & only reacted.even if we traded for one good pitcher along the way we are in much better shape.

    i would sit still & only make a move os sign a player if it makes sense.sheets on a 2 yr with a team 3rd year option,cc if he takes our offer for 6/140,no burnett,maybe perez & that’s pretty much it.

    as crazy as it seems i would even give pavano a one year contract but one thing is for sure,i would not sign any of these injury prone pitchers for 4 or 5 years or up our own offer for cc when no other team has come close to our offer.

    we will get out of this mess but it will take time & patience.

    it is the oneill,brosus,cone,boone & many other moves like this along with keeping our minor league players that will get us back on top not overpaying for players.

  21. bru November 30th, 2008 at 10:35 am

    we have to send a message that we will not be held hostage by players,agents,gm’s regardless of the circumstances.

    we wan’t players who wan’t to be in ny.i would tell cc’s agent that the offer will not be raised unless a team topps it.

    we have a lot of money off the books & next year have over 26 million more coming off,maybe much more if abraeu & pettitte accept arbitration.

    if sabathia signs,great but if he does not we need to move on.

  22. Yankee Trader November 30th, 2008 at 10:46 am

    “We wan’t players who want to be in ny.I would tell CC’s agent that the offer will not be raised unless a team tops it.”

    Agents don’t have to tell GMs what the other teams are offering, only that it’s more money or more years. Get the Gms guessing!

  23. Fredo Corleone November 30th, 2008 at 10:47 am

    “Regarding Tabata, how is it Cashman’s fault when the player acts like a child?”

    Tabata was a child. He should have never been asked to start the year in AA. He wasn’t ready for it physically and as a 19 year old being thrown into an arena where he was clearly overmatched (and he was for most of the season) and has teammates 3-5 years older than he is, it’s not a stretch to think he wasn’t quite ready emotionally either.

    Now how he reacted can’t be blamed on Cashman, but I do blame him for putting him AA ball when he really should have played at least half a season in HI A.

  24. AROD fan November 30th, 2008 at 10:48 am

    hey guys, great to be back on lohud blog after my little vacation to europe sans yankees :( .

    i can’t wait for the dec. 8 meetings!!

    i think all the waiting benefits the yankees. i don’t have any specific theories about how exactly, just a philosophy that everything must benefit the yankees somehow. (european thanksgiving resolution: optimism). we will be rewarded for the patience we exhibited this season!

    AND… next year is an odd year!

  25. bru November 30th, 2008 at 10:53 am

    melky is only 24 years old & started the year on fire.i think we will be ok giving gardner & melky a shot.

    if we get tex we could trade matsui/nady/swisher along with another player or prospect for an outfielder or pitcher.i think tex in our lineup would be awesome.

    i have to believe that keeping the prospects or the good ones is the right thing to do,the red sox are keeping almost all of theirs.

    they build a team with good,deep pitching,obp players & keep their kids except if they absolutely need a player like the becket trade.

  26. Yankee Trader November 30th, 2008 at 10:58 am

    “Pudge should be offered arby. No way Boras lets him accept it. He will be gunning for the last multi-year deal of his career.”

    Pudge’s 2008 salary was $12,379,883. He could make more in one year if he goes to arbitration at 80% of the above figure, than he would likely make in two years. Than the Yankees, in order to trade him would have to eat a lot of his close to 10 million salary. No Thanks for this lucky to be Type B free agent

  27. Yankee Trader November 30th, 2008 at 11:08 am

    “if we get tex we could trade matsui/nady/swisher along with another player or prospect for an outfielder or pitcher.i think tex in our lineup would be awesome.”

    What team would be interested in Matsui, just coming off further knee surgery, until he can prove himself ready, let alone more than a DH? That trade is unloading some 20 million in contracts, so you want the Yankees to pick up the bulk of Matsui’s 13 million?

    I only know of one team that might do that trade in a heartbeat and that’s the Giants-giving us Barry Zito in return!!!

  28. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 11:15 am

    “Back up plan for no Tex:

    ADAM DUNN BABY”

    Oh yeah strike outs galore !! :?

  29. Drive 4-5 November 30th, 2008 at 11:15 am

    Fredo Corleone,

    After coming out of the block with a $140 mil offer to CC, if Sabathia signs elsewhere will it be as if your brother Michael went into that bathroom in the Bronx and came out without the gun?

  30. bru November 30th, 2008 at 11:17 am

    tabata always did well even with players around him being older.

    my problem with trading tabata is the yankees should of traded him for a young pitcher.

    the yankees needed pitching,first baseman,centerfielder or a catcher not nady,marte.

    yes marte & nady are nice players but neither player made us much better.we probably have the same amount of wins without them.

    even if we use tabata,karsens,olendorf added with kennedy or another player to get a cf,fb,pitcher like greinke we are in much better shape.

    we might have to move a player or two anyways if abraeu accepts arbitration.

    now if we trade nady in a package for a position player or pitcher that makes a difference then that might be different.

  31. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 11:19 am

    So the WR, the gun , the latin club and the MLB that hid it + The 3B that screws the 50+ yr. old women, the star PG who doesn’t want to play, wants a buyout …NEW YORK IS BORING.

  32. bru November 30th, 2008 at 11:21 am

    i,m not saying matsui alone.combined with a player or players and i am saying matsui because he is gone after 09 anyways.

    would you do a matsui,kennedy,ajax for a kemp or mclouth or another young cf???? or greinke???

  33. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 11:26 am

    McClouth is so over-rated by NY fans it’s not even funny anymore. Kemp is the sure future stud but he comes w/ tremendous baggage.

  34. ariel November 30th, 2008 at 11:30 am

    It is commonplace in negotiations to ask for more than you expect to receive. If you do not, you are doing a disservice to your client. However, Boras takes it to another level. It is utterly amazing that he can fire his opening salvo with a straight face. Or, (tho I think not) he actually believes the nonsense he spews.

    Given the openly pathetic salivation for pitching (Hal’s comments of a few weeks ago, “….we will spend money”, Cash or the organization’s pronouncement that offers will be made to the so-call big three, CC, AJ and DL”, the Yankees lead themselves down the primrose path. Certainly that conduct invites outrageous openers regarding Lowe and the Plan B hurlers such as Perez from Mr. B.

    Fortunately, Boras does not represent CC If he did,I would suspect his initial fodder could well have been in the vicinity of 15 yrs at 30mm per (at least); after all, A-Rod (which now appears to be the Boras watermark if his initial pitch regarding Manny is any indication) is likewise signed thru the age of 43 (or thereabouts); perhaps the “lucky” team that signs CC should be thankful.

    Irrespective of how preposterous and transparent his approach is, he has been successful….Perhaps due to an imbalance of bargaining skills..or the strength of the relative hand?

  35. bru November 30th, 2008 at 11:34 am

    i have a funny feeling peavey ends up in ny.

    the padres are having all kinds of problems trading him & are looking for a 3rd team.

  36. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2008 at 11:40 am

    bru-

    You are dead wrong about Peavy. He will not be a Yankee.

  37. Drive 4-5 November 30th, 2008 at 11:42 am

    ariel,

    Great points on Boras. I do think,for better or worse,Boras is the most talented negotiator in all of sports. A club must need an army of support staff before going toe to toe with him.

    Boras has left his imprint with the other agents and the way they negotiate. Manny Ramirez fired Jeff Moorad despite Moorad working out a $160mil Boras style deal with Boston. The deal Moorad negotiated pays Manny $2mil a year till he’s 55 years old.

  38. bru November 30th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    signing arod to the 10 year 300 million dollar contract was one of the dumbest things the yankees have ever done.

    if the extra revenue arod brings in pays for the contract or a lot of it then i might change my mind but arod was begging for a contract & was at the yankees mercy.

    8 yrs/200 should of been topps.

    10 yrs is a long time.

    another question.how the crap is jeter making over 22 million a year now & going forward???

    the yankees better be very carefull with his next contract.i understand what he has done but one colossal contract is enough.

    i saw on mlbtr.com MASN’s Roch Kubatko says, “The Orioles still haven’t decided what to do with pitcher Daniel Cabrera, but they have until Dec. 12 to figure it out. That’s when they’ll need to tender him a contract and risk going to arbitration, or turn him loose and hope he doesn’t evolve into another Curt Schilling. very interseting.

  39. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 11:45 am

    “i have a funny feeling peavey ends up in ny.”

    He’ll end up in Atlanta.

  40. Gary November 30th, 2008 at 11:49 am

    What arbitration offers are made on Monday will be telling for some teams.
    Let’s see what the Yankees do with Abreu.

  41. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2008 at 11:52 am

    Abreu will be offered arbitration, Yanks have noting to lose by offering.

  42. CB November 30th, 2008 at 11:53 am

    “Now how he reacted can’t be blamed on Cashman, but I do blame him for putting him AA ball when he really should have played at least half a season in HI A.”

    Fernando Martinez seemed to do fine. Neftali Feliz as well.

    Is it common for 19 year olds to be in AA? No. But at the same time, is it common for an 18 year old to hit .300 in high A. No.

    Where was he going to go? Sure they could have kept him in high A, but that only became apparent after he melted down in Trenton.

    I think there was a lot more going on with Tabata then we’ll know.

  43. bru November 30th, 2008 at 11:54 am

    Buddy Biancalana :

    i might be.

    i know we all have opinions but a few so called experts are saying he ends up with the yankees.

    i don’t put much stock into what i hear about him not wanting to play in ny.

    when talks slowed with atlanta we heard that all of a sudden he would accept a trade to ny.

    the economy has teams being very carefull,anything can happen.i believe if atlanta want’s him he goes there but i would not be suprised at all if he is in ny.

    cashman is very comfortable dealing with the padres & has & probably still talks to towers about peavey.

    towers told cashman that a deal can be done without hughes.

    if a deal can’t be done with the cubs,atlanta,baltimore.dodgers,etc… look for the yankees to at least be in the mix.

    i do agree however that it is not likely but i would not be totally suprised.

  44. Drive 4-5 November 30th, 2008 at 11:54 am

    bru,

    In fairness to the Yankees, they gave Jeter the $189mil 19 year deal in 2001. He had just come off a season where he was both the All Star Game and world Series MVP. His club was on a streak of 4 World Championships in 5 years. The other great AL shortstop at the time, A Rod, was already making over $20mil a year and had never been a key part of any championships. Jeter signed for less money that A Rod and at the time it didnt look like such a bad deal.

  45. Drive 4-5 November 30th, 2008 at 11:55 am

    19 year deal should be 10 year. Sorry for the typo.

  46. bru November 30th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
    November 30th, 2008 at 11:45 am
    “i have a funny feeling peavey ends up in ny.”

    He’ll end up in Atlanta.

    ————————————————————

    why is that? because that is what you hear??

    you might be right but the padres are rebuilding & wan’t to lower payroll so peavey is gone for sure.

    the padres are looking for a grand slam here & wan’t an absolute great package but atlanta does not wan’t to give up 4 or 5 of their prospects with some of them being their best.

    put yourselves in their shoes.would you give up hughes,ajax,montero,betances/cano??

    either the padres or the braves lower their demands,they move on or another team or teams get involved wich is what we are hearing now.

  47. Fredo Corleone November 30th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

    “Where was he going to go? Sure they could have kept him in high A, but that only became apparent after he melted down in Trenton.”

    Hindsight and all that stuff, eh?

    I know he did reasonably well in Tampa as an 18 year old, but I saw it as more him holding his own rather than him dominating the level. He was not in the Top 50 in the FSL in OPS that season. My feeling is that another half season in A+ would have made more sense than the rather significant jump to AA ball.

  48. Fredo Corleone November 30th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

    Drive 4-5:

    Jeter should have been paid less than Arod, but you are correct about why the deal was appropriate at the time. Not only was Jeter playing at his highest level, at that point in time the contract he got was consistent with the market.

  49. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

    “put yourselves in their shoes.would you give up hughes,ajax,montero,betances/cano??”

    Hell No.

  50. ANSKY November 30th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    E-Man (response to yesterday – I was away)

    1: Clemens first two years he pitched 133 and 98 innings. His records those two seasons were 9-4 and 7-5. Yeah, he won some in his first year but ask yourself honestly: Would a second year pitcher who goes 7-5 in 98 innings get torn a new one by people like you? Clemens’ THIRD year was dominant: 24-4 in 248 innings. If in his second year the Red Sox had said to him “the opportunity was there but you blew it” and traded him away, would the third year have happened? Sure … but for another team.

    2: Igawa was a veteran of 8 professional seasons in Japan before coming here. He’s 29 years old, he was drafted in 1998, and 6 of those seasons were full seasons. I agree he’s not a 35 year old veteran an he’s not a veteran of US major league baseball, but he definitely had lots of experience (certainly far more than Kennedy, and Joba or Hughes for that matter) going into last year.

    Teams don’t go posting millions of dollars to get experienced Japanese pro players with the intention of bringing them up through the system. They spend that money to get guys who are ready for US baseball when they arrive, like Ichiro, Matsuzaka and Matsui. I suppose you considered those three guys equal to inexperienced rookies just out of AAA in their rookie years?

  51. bru November 30th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

    Drive 4-5
    November 30th, 2008 at 11:54 am
    bru,

    In fairness to the Yankees, they gave Jeter the $189mil 19 year deal in 2001. He had just come off a season where he was both the All Star Game and world Series MVP. His club was on a streak of 4 World Championships in 5 years. The other great AL shortstop at the time, A Rod, was already making over $20mil a year and had never been a key part of any championships. Jeter signed for less money that A Rod and at the time it didnt look like such a bad deal.

    ————————————————————

    it seems like the teams that do these crazy contracts are the teams that do not compete.seattle with arod,griffey,seattle with bedard & on and on.

    the yankees have the money to cover these mistakes.

    it just seems like 20 million a year for a short stop is a little too much regardless of how it happened but i understand that they were in a tough spot.

    it is his next contract that worries me,example,posada.

    posada had dinner with minaya & the yankees imediately offered him 4 years,i would of let him walk.

    the yankees have to take emotions and past performances out of the mix like the red sox..

    the red sox will not be held hostage by varitek,he knows this,boras knows this & boston will be better in the long run for this practice.

  52. Vrsce November 30th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    Yankee Trader

    You wrote: “only know of one team that might do that trade in a heartbeat and that’s the Giants-giving us Barry Zito in return!!!”

    That would be a good trade for the Yankees. Zito can be rehab’ed

  53. CB November 30th, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    “I know he did reasonably well in Tampa as an 18 year old, but I saw it as more him holding his own rather than him dominating the level.”

    Fredo,

    That’s more than reasonable. And in general I agree with you – better to go more slowly than too fast.

    I think teams are pushing their kids too fast through their system. They’re getting very wrapped up in this whole idea of using age at a level as an explanation for limited performance.

    That said, I think it’s a tough call and ultimately it wasn’t ability or preparedness on the field that was the deciding factor – Tabata’s handful of at bats in the eastern league for the pirates showed that.

    I think the issues with him were largely emotional and mental. I do also think that it may have taken a trade to get his attention.

    The scouting reports on Tabata in AA were awful – but they largely involved off the field related factors – he had been gaining weight as a 19 year old, losing speed, he was spoiled, and having emotional outbursts, etc.

    Ultimately, there was a lot going on and we won’t ever know the full story.

    But I think with Tabata it was more of an issue of the emotional factors impacting his play rather than he talent/prepardeness for AA impacting his emotions. It was probably some of both – but I think most people felt the talent was there.

    And part of the trade may have been the organization thinking Tabata would be a poor fit for NY.

    What I do think is that they didn’t just rush his development or trade him without thinking through it carefully.

    He did well for Pitt. Maybe that’s where he belongs. He was already making comments about feeling a lot of pressure from expectations while playing in the yankees farm system.

    I do think given his performance as an 18 year old in high A moving him to AA was reasonable. Not a slam dunk – but reasonable.

  54. bru November 30th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
    November 30th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
    “put yourselves in their shoes.would you give up hughes,ajax,montero,betances/cano??”

    Hell No.

    ————————————————————

    then this is why he might not end up with the braves.

    people hear on tv & the radio that he will end up there but don’t know that the padres wan’t to empty almost literally the braves farm system.

    i at one time looked at the prospects that the padres wan’t & every one of them are studs for the most part.

    like i said think of giving up hughes,ajax,montero,betances/cano & it still might not be the best package or what the padres wan’t.

  55. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

    Vrsce
    November 30th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
    Yankee Trader

    You wrote: “only know of one team that might do that trade in a heartbeat and that’s the Giants-giving us Barry Zito in return!!!”

    That would be a good trade for the Yankees. Zito can be rehab’ed

    ———————————————————–

    Rehabbed from what? Bad pitching? By the time he’d reached 28 years old, he’d lost 8 MPH off of his fastball and his control has pretty much vanished. If he can’t pitch in the NL West in that big ballpark, he’ll be destroyied in the AL East.

  56. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    A big part of the reason that Tabata didn’t “dominate” the FSL at age 18 was two injuries to his hand. A broken hamate bone and a cyst inside of his wrist contributed to his trouble with hitting for more power or driving the ball.

  57. Vrsce November 30th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    GreenBeret7

    How can such a rapid drop off be explained?

  58. mel November 30th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    Great panel on The Sports Reporters for New York fans.

    Steven A. Smith, Bob Ryan, Mike Lupica. :?

  59. yankee21 November 30th, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    the yankees have to take emotions and past performances out of the mix like the red sox..
    —————————————-

    excellent point bru, but as a practical step, the team has to be able to move on without a player, to do that there has to be SS available via trade, FA or MiL.

  60. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

    Barry Zito didn’t have a rapid drop-off in his ability. For the previous couple of years in Oakland his numbers were progressively getting worse, if I remember correctly. One of the reasons that they Yanks and AL East passed on him. Well, that and the steep price.

  61. Fredo Corleone November 30th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    “A big part of the reason that Tabata didn’t “dominate” the FSL at age 18 was two injuries to his hand. A broken hamate bone and a cyst inside of his wrist contributed to his trouble with hitting for more power or driving the ball.”

    Yeah, I was familiar with the injuries. Probably had an impact on him in ’08 too as he once again was unable to drive the ball w/ any consistency. Wrist injuries can be a bitch that way.

  62. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 12:50 pm

    Zito was a decent pitcher, but, like San Diego pitchers much of his success was a product of a home park the size of an airport. He’s got a rather bizarre way of thinking and that’s changed, too. There was an interview in the NYT back in September on him, and it seems that for whatever reason, he’s lost confidence in his pitching. Another thing seems to be the pressure of the contract and it’s size. I’ll try to find it and add a link to it.

    OK..Here it is.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09.....-ZITO.html

  63. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

    Part of the deal with Tabata’s behavior, I think can be laid diredtly towards homesickness. He was 17, married and had a baby. It’s difficult for anybody that young to be away from family. Another thing was that he couldn’t go out with friends because they could go to bars and he couldn’t.

    In Charleston, none of them could and Torre Tyson kept a prety tight leash on them, but, he kept them busy with practice. Tyson is going to make a very good coach. He’s young, but, the kids that pay for him have a lot of respect for him.

  64. george November 30th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

    i’m surprised Pete didn’t work in another weird cheap shot to Girardi in today’s post.

  65. Vrsce November 30th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

    GreenBeret7

    Thanks for the link, a good article. After reading, it seems Zito could be rehab’ed; but not in NYC. Perhaps Kansas.

  66. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

    Correction: the kids that ***play*** for him have a lot of respect for him.

  67. CB November 30th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

    “Barry Zito didn’t have a rapid drop-off in his ability. For the previous couple of years in Oakland his numbers were progressively getting worse,”

    Zito was progressively getting worse. There has been a fairly striking drop in his velocity that most likely explains both his slower decline and then his complete collapse with the giants.

    Zito went to the NL West – by far the worst hitting division in baseball – and got much worse. He was progressively getting worse in Oakland – but his performance in SF was much worse than what that progressive decline anticipated.

    Zito used to throw 88-91. Around there. That what he threw when he was effective. He was around there in 2004.

    In 2005 Zito’s average fastball was 87.3. In 2006 his velocity fell further to 85.8.

    When he got to the giants he lost more velocity – average fastball 84.5. Last year he was 84.9.

    Similarly, he’s lost over 3 mph on his slider.

    His curveball doesn’t have the break on it it used to.l

    Zito’s just lost a tremendous amount of velocity at a relatively young age. That has been going on for sometime and got worse when he was in SF. Very hard to survive with fastball less than 85 mph (never mind in the AL east). His strike out rates have plummeted with that loss of velocity.

    Last year Zito averaged only 6K/9 and walked a career high 5.1/9. That is just horrendous. K:BB of 1.18. Just awful. No pitcher can survive on that.

    I’d guess Zito tried to compensate for his loss of velocity by nibbling more last year. He gave up fewer home runs than the previous two years – but walked many more guys.

    Mussina’s average fastball velocity last year was 86.4 mph. Mussina didn’t strike out many – 6.7/9 but he didn’t walk anyone either – 1.4/9. So his K:BB was an outstanding 4.84.

    Zito will need to completely reinvent himself the way Mussina did to even have a chance of being a league average pitcher, never mind a good one.

    Very unlikely he is able to do that given how below average he already is.

  68. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    Vrsce
    November 30th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
    GreenBeret7

    Thanks for the link, a good article. After reading, it seems Zito could be rehab’ed; but not in NYC. Perhaps Kansas.

    ———————————————————-

    San Francisco isn’t likely to pay a lot of his salary to move him and there are few teams that could afford or would take a chance on him. Hard to say who would do it, but, I doubt NYY would and a team like KC couldn’t. He always pitched well in Baltimore, but, doubtful that they’d tke a crack at him. Detroit could absorb part of his salary and he does well, there.

  69. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    Dominek Hixon doesn’t know the man crush I have for him.

  70. S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers November 30th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    Plaxico who? Hixon seems to be pretty okay. ;)

  71. S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers November 30th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    KO coverage is still gross. :(

  72. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 1:19 pm

    Kenny ! Kenny ! Kenny !

  73. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    OMG Boss and Hixon !

  74. S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers November 30th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

    Oh crap! O’Hara! :cry:

  75. RS November 30th, 2008 at 1:28 pm

    as for Jeter’s ridiculous contract, also remember that from a business point, it makes sense for the yankees.

    Jeter may not be one of the top 5 or 10 hitters in baseball, but is there any other player who generates more revenue through the selling of jerseys, memorabilia, etc.?

    the yankees knew back in 2001 that Jeter was a huge icon in NY and that he would be a revenue machine with the likes of mantle, mattingly, etc. knowing that they could afford to give him such a huge contract, why wouldn’t they try and reward him for all his past accomplishments?

  76. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    according to sideline reports O’Hara will return. phew !

  77. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2008 at 1:38 pm

    Brandon – I was putting up Christmas decorations for my wife. What happened to O’Hara?

  78. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    sprained knee but he’s ok.

  79. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    thanks.

  80. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    WIND !

  81. Paul November 30th, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    I think that Pete’s factor # 4 — the current state of the economy — must be a huge factor. Alot of owners must be feeling the pinch, and alot of businesses won’t be so keen to re-up on their season luxury boxes and the like. Naming rights deals are going south, and no doubt advertizing budgets will be trimmed. But if that’s the case, I’d think Boras must be playing Russian Roulette if he doesn’t accept the Yanks’ offer to Sabathia.

    From the Yanks’ perspective, I think they should go First-rate or nothing in the FA market. Make an offer to Tex and forget about the injury-prone, almost-over-the-hill pitchers.

    Happy Thanksgiving all!

  82. S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers November 30th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

    Wanna see more TDs instead of FGs. But so far, me like this game!

  83. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

    Paul
    November 30th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
    I think that Pete’s factor # 4—the current state of the economy—must be a huge factor. Alot of owners must be feeling the pinch, and alot of businesses won’t be so keen to re-up on their season luxury boxes and the like. Naming rights deals are going south, and no doubt advertizing budgets will be trimmed. But if that’s the case, I’d think Boras must be playing Russian Roulette if he doesn’t accept the Yanks’ offer to Sabathia.

    From the Yanks’ perspective, I think they should go First-rate or nothing in the FA market. Make an offer to Tex and forget about the injury-prone, almost-over-the-hill pitchers.

    Happy Thanksgiving all!

    ———————————————————–

    Not sure that Greg Genske will be very happy when he finds out that Boras has gotten involved in getting a deal done between the Yanks and sabathia. I smell a lawsuit.

  84. george November 30th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    real names from the Jason Grimsley affidavit are out. the widely-reported names were all wrong. no Clemens, Pettitte; McNamee alleged to be a speed reference (which i believe would by law make McNamee a target of a conspiracy to distribute drugs prosecution).

    see “http://articles.latimes.com/2007/dec/21/sports/sp-baseball21″.

    the LA Times “coverage” of this story was witch-hunting garbage. they got most of the names wrong.

  85. Gary November 30th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

    Business to take care of before the winter meetings . . . .

    http://zellspinstripeblog.com/.....decisions/

  86. S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers November 30th, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    Uh oh. Things aren’t looking as good

  87. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    Jacobs just walked on air 8O

  88. Al from BK November 30th, 2008 at 3:16 pm

    Jets about to go to 9-3. I hope ;)

  89. Jake November 30th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    Peter,

    Can the Angels seriously afford to offer Sabathia a contract that is similar in size and price to the Yankees’s current offer?

    If so, what do the Yankees up their offer to? How far are they willing to go before they say “no thanks”?

  90. dave November 30th, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    yea, yea, yea I have heard it a million times. RJ was still good and gave us 17 wins. Vazquez was going to be a star. Everyone wanted pavano. Igawa had great numbers in japan. And the list goes on and on and on. But the fact is not that all of these pitchers had done well at some point in their careers but rather that cashman has made soooo many bad free agent pitching signings that it is impossible for a logical person to blame it all on chance and bad luck.

    And the fact is the yanks were winning championships and had a dynasty in the late 90s and 2000. Cash took over in 98 and actually started making decisions in the early 2000s. Since cashmans brilliant moves started to accumulate, the yanks have went from dynasty to finishing in third place in the division and somewhat of a joke with an anemic offense despite multiple stars and a horrendous rotation with a payroll over 200 million. Maybe none of this is cashmans fault but it is almost impossible for me to believe that.

    Furthermore, I love how 5 or so people commented on me blaming tabata’s poor performance on cashman. If you actually read my comments, I actually said that tabatas performance was not cashmans fault but someone in the organization is responsible for him doing horrendous in trenton going to altoona and playing the best ball of his career.

    And all the other comments about my post discussed the big free agent signings – completely disregarding the bulk of my comment where i discussed using hughes and kennedy far too early and possibly screwing up their career or atleast setting them back, relying on melky, giving cano a gigantic contract based on yankee tradition for young players and watching him collapse. I spent all of maybe two sentences on farnsworth, pavano, wright, igawa, johnson, vazquez and friends. But i guess if you cant defend this superstar of cashmans status just avoid the issue ocmpletely right? Or pretend like I was blaming tabatas performance on cashman and avoid the real issues. Like the fact that almost every young player from the farm on the yanks last season took a step backwards. How about talking about that instead of mentioning words like hindsight and monday morning quarterbacking. And really if one looked at pavano’s stats before he came to he yanks – it was pretty obvious he was severely injury prone and has had one good year in his whole career to that point.Same with Jared wright – one good year in the NL before cashman signed him to a three year contract. And igawa was seen by many many scouts- not a single scout from the yankee organization could see that his high fastball would translate into disaster in the majors.

  91. Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)..."Don't trade Robi !" November 30th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    Dammit I want Hixon to get a TD :(

  92. S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers November 30th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

    Great job today Giants.
    Plax to plead not guilty to gun possession.
    http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27968336/

  93. Pel November 30th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    Plaxident needs to go. Enough is enough.

  94. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers
    November 30th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
    Great job today Giants.
    Plax to plead not guilty to gun possession.
    http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/27968336/

    ————————————————————

    Alex Rodriguez had to have sneaked the gun into Burress’ pocket. Rodriguez is to blame for everything, including air pollution, global warming and the Yankees not winning the WS in the 78 seasons that NYY didn’t win the WS.

  95. Phil Parcells November 30th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    The G-Men’s offensive has big hole(9mm) to fill.

  96. Blue Bleeding November 30th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    HOW ABOUT THOSE G-MEN ! ! !

    Who needs Burress packing heat.

  97. S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers November 30th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

    “Alex Rodriguez had to have sneaked the gun into Burress’ pocket. Rodriguez is to blame for everything, including air pollution, global warming and the Yankees not winning the WS in the 78 seasons that NYY didn’t win the WS.”

    Don’t forget blaming Alex for the disaster that is happening on Wall Street and world hunger.
    ;)

  98. Phil Parcells November 30th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

    The G-Man will be missing one of their big guns today.

  99. Tom November 30th, 2008 at 4:30 pm

    Uh, the Giants won today genius.

  100. return of November 30th, 2008 at 4:31 pm

    who cares?

  101. Matt November 30th, 2008 at 4:33 pm

    Big day for the giants, New york giants win a big game AND…SAN FRAN Giants sign CC sabathia….

  102. Phil Parcells November 30th, 2008 at 4:34 pm

    Yes, yes, but obviously, their offense was hobbled today.

  103. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers

    Don’t forget blaming Alex for the disaster that is happening on Wall Street and world hunger.

    ———————————————————-

    Well, yes…that goes without saying. I also heard that he is also responsible for Stalin taking power and was also on “The grassy knoll”.

  104. Phil Parcells November 30th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    I wonder if Shrub will issue pardons to Clemens and Bonds before checking out.

  105. Peter Abraham November 30th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

    Just a reminder:

    Making stuff up will get you banned. That CC stuff was fiction. I deleted it along with responses to it to keep people from getting confused.

    Carry on.

  106. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pm

    oh, well Pete beats me to it.

  107. dave November 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pm

    IF MLBTRADERUMORS is not reporting it i cant believe it. That site lists everything as soon as another legit media outlet reports it. I cant imagine why in the world cc would accept 128 mil when he has 140 on the table with the yanks willing to go higher and the angels considering making him an offer “that may match the yankees.” And this are two contenders – esp the angels who finished with the best record in baseball. The giants were 72 and 90 and their biggest need by far is offense. Randy winn, aaron rowand and bengie molina were their best hitters last year. Molina led the team with 16 homeruns and winn led the team with a 363 obp. They have two of the best young pitchers in the game in cain and lincecum, a rising star in Jonathan sanchez and our bogged down by huge contracts to inneffective and oft injured pitchers. They have the pitching and desparately need offense. This is the last team out of the four that wanted CC (yanks, angels, dodgers and giants) that i would expect to actually sign him.

  108. dave November 30th, 2008 at 4:55 pm

    my comment is a response to why this cant be true.

  109. Nick in SF at Dulles November 30th, 2008 at 4:55 pm

    Susan Slusser cov ers the A’s, although Vallejo could theoretically be part of her ‘beat’. Nonetheless, I wouldn’t worry much about this report.

    I would worry if you’re not a New York Football Giants fan though! Woo hoo!

  110. dave November 30th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    Thanks for the clarification pete

  111. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 30th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    dave, the ENTER button is your friend. use it!

  112. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 30th, 2008 at 5:00 pm

    I found this very funny:

    Free agent Jay Payton, who forced a trade out of Boston in 2005 because he was unhappy with his role, says he’s open to returning to the Red Sox as a fourth outfielder.

    http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....?page=full

  113. Nick in SF at Dulles November 30th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    I think Pete deleted my comment because I inserted the numbers ’18′ and ’1′ in it.

  114. dave November 30th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

    Does anyone think that outside of Tex who may cost too much and Dunn who strikes out too much that Pat Burrell may be a decent addition to the yanks lineup. He had an obp of 400 two years ago, is only 32 years old, hits 30 homers every season and can play first base – 58 games with 988 fielding percentage. He will probably accept a reasonable contract and isnt highly sought after. We could move swisher to center, put burrell at first and put gardner on the bench where he should be. That also gives us a second righty bat with power. Arod could bat third and Burrell could bat fourth. I obviously want tex but if cashman is completely unwilling to sign him and CC (and we get CC) i STILL think we need to somehow upgrade the lineup – Damon LF, Jeter SS, Arod 3B, Burrell 1B, Nady RF, Posada C, Matsui DH, Cano 2B, Swisher CF. It looks better than gardner playing CF and batting ninth and Swisher playing first and batting eighth. Just for a comparison, Swisher has a 994 fielding percentage which is 6 points better than burrell at first. Swisher has a 979 fielding percentage in center. Maybe Burrell could even play center and swisher first but i dont think that will work.

  115. dave November 30th, 2008 at 5:09 pm

    sorry ed – i keep forgetting to make paragraphs when i am trying to get the post up quickly.

  116. RhapsodyInBlue November 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

    Plax to plead not guilty to self inflicted gun wound.

  117. dave November 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

    Actually i think with burrell in the lineup we would have to split up jeter, arod and burell so it could be damon, jeter, nady, arod, matsui, burrell, posada, cano, swisher or something like that but that gives us multiple right handed hitters with power and the lineup is much more balanced than with gardner

  118. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

    A .988 fielding percentage at first base isn’t good…and that only counts towards the balls he tries for. No…Burrell can’t play left field, much less, center field.

  119. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 30th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

    “Pat Burrell may be a decent addition to the yanks lineup.”

    let the Angels sign Burrell to play 1B, and we get Teixiera or have him going to the Nationals.

  120. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2008 at 5:15 pm

    I thought that Burress was pleading not guilty to illegal gun possession.

  121. dave November 30th, 2008 at 5:18 pm

    Jermaine dye is another option for a right handed bat with power. He is on the trading block and probably wouldnt need that much to get him. His contract is somewhat reasonable but he is 34 already. he is a pretty solid rightfielder though

  122. dave November 30th, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    Id rather have tex that burrell for sure but id rather have CC than tex. And if cash isnt lying and we can only get one id take CC but still try to improve the offense in other ways, Im just thinking about some decent first baseman and rightfielders/centerfielders with right handed power that could add to our relatively mediocre lineup at the moment

  123. Ed - patience isn't a virtue to some people November 30th, 2008 at 5:21 pm

    Dye is only slightly better than Abreu, not solid though.

  124. dave November 30th, 2008 at 5:25 pm

    I really dont know why cashman and the yanks consider CC, AJ and Lowe the big three. Fact is, Lowe isnt even close to the other two in terms of talent and is significantly older. He wants a contract far beyond what he will earn in the next four years and signing lowe is a giant waste of money.

    Furthermore, there are many other free agents that have better stuff than lowe and could be far better than lowe over the next couple of seasons. Lowe doesnt even deserve to be named in the same sentence as CC and Lowe is not the third best free agent on the market. I dunno what this fascination is with derek lowe. He is not the pitcher he was on the sox almost a decade ago. he would never succeed in the AL. I wish cashmans and the yanks people would stop saying the big three – there is no big three. It is cc and then, everybody else from decent to very bad. Lowe is probably somewhere in the middle of the pack.

  125. Nick in SF at Dulles November 30th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    “If my leg is fine, the gun ain’t mine.”

  126. Phil Parcells November 30th, 2008 at 5:28 pm

    Joe from Long Island-

    Plaxico defense will be: who ya gonna believe, me or that hole in my leg?

  127. Tom November 30th, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    Typical Jets…

  128. Jake November 30th, 2008 at 5:44 pm

    dave,

    I think you have to at least acknowledge postseason experience in Lowe, if nothing else. He is approaching the twilight of his career, but he is a work horse, inning eating, ground ball pitcher.

    I am not a huge fan, but slotting that guy in as your fourth starter isn’t necessarily a bad move. The only way its a bad move is if they overpay which whatever team that gets him will likely do ala Borass.

    I more or less bought into that argument about signing sheets at less years. Tough decision though considering injuries…and he will get injured, rest assured. How often and for how long, who knows?

  129. RhapsodyInBlue November 30th, 2008 at 5:47 pm

    “If the accused is a nitwit, you must acquit.”

  130. Dassit November 30th, 2008 at 5:48 pm

    Kennedy just finished his outing for today. His line: 9 IP, 3 hits, 0 runs, 1 walk, 7 K’s. GB-FO: 7-13

  131. S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers November 30th, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    “If my leg is fine, the gun ain’t mine.”

    “If the accused is a nitwit, you must acquit.”

    —————————————————–

    LOL :D

  132. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    One of the problems with the Yanks’ rotation as the season wore on was the toll the weak starters put on the ‘pen.

    Rasner, Sir Sidney, IPK….getting knocked out in the 4th-5th-6th innings takes a toll on the relievers, which then puts you in more of a hole….

    The advantage that a guy like Lowe gives you is consistency. While he may not be an All-Star at this point in his career, you know what you’re getting, and for a 4th starter to go out there every 5th day and give you 6-7 innings is a relief for your pen. The only pitcher the Yanks have for sure that can give you that is Wang; add Pettitte if he comes back, but that’s only two guys. You know Joba’s on an innings/pitch limit.

    It took me a while to come around a bit to Randy I’s idea of the value of an “innings-eater”, but someone who is reliably go out and give you 6-7 innings, with an ERA of 4-4.5 over 9 innings, isn’t such a bad thing. Not great, but good enough.

  133. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    One of my favorite 20th-century philosophers once opined “you can’t always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes you get what you need.” Seems appropriate here.

  134. RhapsodyInBlue November 30th, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    Plax was told by his lawyer not to make any statements to the press, it’s best to keep his powder dry.

  135. dave November 30th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    yes, Lowe histoeically is good in the postseason. But does that fact make it any better that cash and other consistently talk about him with aj and cc as if they are by far the best in the market and far better than anyone else out there. To me, it doesnt make it any better. Lowe is good in the NL and he is old. He is not 28 or 30, he is in the twilight of his career for certain. You cant say he is just as good as AJ or CC. And you cant say that he is a far better signing than sheets or even oliver perez.

    Lowe may be a workhorse but due to his age, he is also going to start being an injury risk. And he doesnt have the stuff to compete in the AL east most likely making him a possible totally useless signing ala igawa. i just dont know where this big three nonsense came from and i wish the yanks would open their eyes and realize that sheets is far better than lowe, not nearly as sought after and willing to take far less years and money. If cashman is one of the better GMs in the game, he should act like one and stop following the bandwagon. Look at where that got him with pavano and jared wright – a couple of other guys that everybody wanted who at a closer glance looked very mediocre and fragile in the NL.

  136. i am the walrus November 30th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    “It took me a while to come around a bit to Randy I’s idea of the value of an “innings-eater”, but someone who is reliably go out and give you 6-7 innings, with an ERA of 4-4.5 over 9 innings, isn’t such a bad thing. Not great, but good enough.”

    Not if your offense isn’t up to the task of scoring enough, that high an ERA is only acceptable if your team can still out score those runs given up. With the loss of Abreu and Giambi, unless the Yankees add a bat then he isn’t going to be an innings eater.

  137. dave November 30th, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    Joe,

    Lowe is an innings eater in the NL. You know what you are getting with lowe is right – you are getting an era between 5 and 6 and a whip over 1.4 or even 1.5. You are getting a guy who doesnt have the talent to pitch in the AL East. You are getting an over the hill NL West pitcher. You are getting an older starter when the yanks have said for years that they are trying to get younger. Take a look at Lowe’s last two years in the AL eAST WIth the redsox and expect those numbers when he comes back with the yankees a couple of years later. Why do you think he left the AL? He couldnt pitch here anymore. He wont be an innings eater just like Igawa is no longer an innings eater. You need to get talent over the ability to throw 200 mediocre to horrendous innings. Sheets is a far better play than lowe right now.

  138. dave November 30th, 2008 at 6:12 pm

    If I had everything i wanted our rotation would be CC, Wang, Sheets, Pettitte, Joba. There are four guys who can throw us 6 or 7 innings every time out. We shouldnt sign mediocre pitchers just because they can throw alot of innings. If we wanted that, why not just sign jon garland and take 200 innings with a 5 era? The key is quality and quantity. No point signing lowe is we can throw any number of AAA starters out there for 1/1000th of the cost and they can throw up seven innings amongsts eachother every five days and give us an era over 5. Lowe is a HUGE MISTAKE. Mark my words. If we cant get CC, we need to trade for a number one starter because there arent enough free agent starters out there who can come to our rotation and make us a better team. If we cant sign CC or sheets, i would sign Tex, trade for a frontline starter with prospects and start hughes in the majors at the five spot. That would be the absolute worst case scenario if everything else i wanted to do went sour. Cash should under no circumstances sign AJ, Lowe and some other FA starter and call it a day. Id rather improve the offense and get pitching elsewhere via trade or the minors.

  139. dave November 30th, 2008 at 6:34 pm

    Giving AJ bURNETT Five years by the way is just begging for another carl pavano. Both have talent but havent really showed it on the mound outside of one big season. Both had a laundry list of injuried coming into their walk year. Both wanted long contracts over big money contracts. Both only pitched over 200 innings a couple of times by the age of 30. Both had their best years in their walk years. Both had a questionable work ethic. Burnett is slightly better because he has had success in the AL eAST but burnett has never been in an all star game and was never voted for the cy young. There is a reason for that.

    bURNETT has better stuff but far worse control. Burnett is also much more unreliable in his best years giving huge performances one day and huge blowouts the next. Before last season, burnetts contract was already considered a major bust in fanchise history and although he pitched 200 innings last season he pitched to the tune of a 1.342 whip which is only mediocre and a 4.07 era which is ok.

    Derek lowe had a 1.6 whip in his last year in boston with a 5.4 era and no injury in 180 innings – this was just ineffectiveness. He had a 1.42 whip the year before showing signs of decline. Lowe is 35 already. He did well in LA putting up mainly 200 plus innings with era under 4 but that will not be replicated in the AL East. He has weak stuff giving up about a hit per inning and survives on control. And he is no mike mussina. I think if he comes to NY we can expect 180 innings but an era in the high 4s or even low 5s. That is not acceptable if he is making number three type money and signing for four years. Not to mention, he is signing from 34 to 39 – not exactly prime time. We can expect a slow breakdown and he will only get less effective with age.

    Sheets is 30 and pitched 200 innings 4 of his last 7 years. He has had multiple injuries but all unrelated. He has a tear of a muscle in his elbow from late last season which will heal by the spring. He is injury prone but when he is on, he is lights out. He put eras under 4 every season since 2004. He is a master of control with nasty stuff walking 47 in 198 innings last season. He walked 32 in 237 innings one season. His whip has been under 1.2 5 out of the last 6 seasons posting a 1.09, 0.98, 1.15 and 1.06.

    Mussinas whip last season was 1.22 last season for comparison. In his best years, he strikes out about a batter per innings usually slightly less than that. He only gave up 17 homers in almost 200 innings last season – wang is considered the best in the game at that and gave up 9 in 200 last season. Outside of a strange injury history which could be attributed to bad luck for the most part, there is nothing not to like about sheets. And he has soo little suitors due to his latest injury and stigma that he is thinking about a one or two year deal with incentives. Talk about buying stock when the stock is down, this would be considered a gold mine to some investors. I would get sheets in a room lock the door and not let him leave until he is signed if i were cashman. Of course, cashman has his plan A and plan B as well as his big three to figure out.

  140. Jake November 30th, 2008 at 6:34 pm

    dave,

    I don’t necessarily think anyone is putting Lowe, or Burnett for that matter, on the same tier as Sabathia. I think people are merely pointing out that of the available free agents, they constitute the three best starters available. Sheets is obviously in that conversation, but because of a gnarly injury history, he is a much greater risk than Lowe. I think the same can be said for Burnett.

  141. dave November 30th, 2008 at 6:38 pm

    I meant wang gave up 9 homers in 200 innings two seasons ago

  142. dave November 30th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

    I just dont get this big three talk – there is a big one which is cc. outside of that, there is two pitchers with great stuff and a bad injury history which is burnett and sheets. Everyone else, is on a large spectrum from ok to pretty horrible. i dunno why lowe would be considered the third best FA starter and i dunno where this big three came from considering the wide range that cc, aj and dl fall under. To me, CC is by far the best pitcher on the market. Sheets is the best bargain. AJ is the greatest risk with the highest reward if he actually pans out. Lowe is just one of about five other starters who can really only serve as an innings eater in the AL. I think Oliver perez is someone who could be considered better than lowe merely because he has a higher upside and is younger.

  143. dave November 30th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    I love how the only news that came out of this week was that the yanks might lose CC to the angels and the yanks might lose pettitte to the dodgers. The hot stove has become the boring and annoying stove. Other than that, there were just about ten rumors of signings that were all later debunked. And cc has not even contacted the yanks after being given the biggest contract offer for a pitcher in MLB history. I understand why he wouldnt jump at the offer but to not even discuss the offer with the yanks seems a little ominous to me. He could have atleast said thanks for the offer but i am waiting to see what the west coast teams offer me.

  144. OldYanksFan November 30th, 2008 at 9:21 pm

    All things being equal, CC is more valuable then Tex. However, considering the makeup of our current team, and our farm, it seems like we are short of position players. And as a team that targets offense, I like the idea of having a guy who is actually above average on D.

    Last year, even with Wang out, Joba missing time and ZERO contributions from Phil, we were 8th of 14 in ERA, However, if with look at DIPS (defensive independent) ERA we see:
    ERA DIPS Team
    3.82 4.20 …TB
    4.01 4.09 …Boston
    4.28 3.94 …Yankees

    Of 14 AL teams, we were 13th in DIP% (DIP ERA/ERA). TB was first. Simply put, while the numbers above may not be 100% accurate, there is no doubt that our denfense makes our pitching look worse then it was. There was a long article on this in THT, stating how much defense is underrated when talking about Pitchers ERA.

    As an aside, Steve Goldman thinks our issues are (in order):
    Defense, Offense, Pitching… and I agree.

  145. Mike S. November 30th, 2008 at 9:29 pm

    Fredo Corleone
    November 30th, 2008 at 10:47 am
    “Regarding Tabata, how is it Cashman’s fault when the player acts like a child?”

    Tabata was a child. He should have never been asked to start the year in AA. He wasn’t ready for it physically and as a 19 year old being thrown into an arena where he was clearly overmatched (and he was for most of the season) and has teammates 3-5 years older than he is, it’s not a stretch to think he wasn’t quite ready emotionally either.

    Now how he reacted can’t be blamed on Cashman, but I do blame him for putting him AA ball when he really should have played at least half a season in HI A.
    ===========================================================

    He already spent a FULL SEASON at High A, hitting .307. You wanted him to spend another half season there? Physically you do put him at the next level. Maybe emotionally he didn’t or couldn’t handle it, but Cashman’s job doesn’t or shouldn’t include “babysitter,” just as Theo shouldn’t have had to babysit Manny.


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