Compensation lists for free agents
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 02, 2008 
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Here are those players who were offered arbitration, compliments of the MLBPA:
Type A
A.J. Burnett
Orlando Cabrera
Juan Cruz
Brian Fuentes
Orlando Hudson
Raul Ibanez
Derek Lowe
Darren Oliver
Manny Ramirez
Francisco Rodriguez
CC Sabathia
Ben Sheets
Mark Teixeira
Jason Varitek
Type B
Casey Blake
Milton Bradley
Paul Byrd
Jon Garland
Mark Grudzielanek
Brandon Lyon
Dennys Reyes
Brian Shouse
David Weathers
Signing a Type A player would cost a first-round draft pick. The top 15 picks are protected, however. Signing a Type B player requires no compensation.
So the Yankees are pretty much guaranteed of losing their pick. Slow as the market it, you figure they’ll sign one of those Type A pitchers at least.
If the Yankees sign 2 type A’s (CC and Burnett/Lowe/Sheets) do they lose both their first and second round picks?
Oh man, I haven’t posted here in ages. How is everyone?
I do understand how Type A and B free agents are determined, but it’s funny (given the seasons they had) that Varitek is Type A and Milton Bradley is Type B.
Tom:
You’ve got that right.
Tom, yes.
Ok, so it would be wonderful if the Yankees just made offers, besides the one to CC, for:
Burnett
Lowe (although i dont really think we want another former sox)
Sheets (3 years)
Tex (7yr at 18-19 a year)
Garland
Also, i think a trade with houston for wigginton would work for our bench, which is not very good.
Don’t forget, even if the Yankees sign two type A’s, they will have a 1st and 2nd round pick next year. This is because they failed to sign Bittle and Cole this year.
Veritek has been all that great for at least 2 years. He really shouldn’t be a Type A.
Thanks Patrick and Fredo.
What team is dumb enough to waste a 1st round pick signing Jason Varitek? I’d be surprised if he doesn’t sign a 1 year deal with the Sox.
On what planet is Jason V a type A free agent? Wow that lofty .200 avg he can carry a team.
Hello Rececca,
I’m fine. Long time lurker and I did noticed you’ve been absent for a while. I hope all’s going well for you.
It’s amazing how quiet an off season it’s been. Not even many rumors.
On topic for anyone who can answer…
Let’s say, we sign two Type A FA. How does MLB decide which team would get the one draft pick we have that’s not protected?
“So the Yankees are pretty much guaranteed of losing their pick.”
Based on how Cashman handled our 1st and 3rd picks last year, it hardly matters.
“On what planet is Jason V a type A free agent? Wow that lofty .200 avg he can carry a team.”
He’s only being measured against other catchers. He was near or at the bottom of the Type A distinction whereas Pudge was right at the top of the Type B distinction.
hey rebecca – as an addicted lurker here i’ve missed you.
If we sign just one Type A heres hoping it’s Darren Oliver *giggle*
Welcome back, Rebecca. A few of these recent threads could’ve used some of your optimism.
Good bye Gerrit Cole compensation pick. Sure wish we’d pick up some picks from Abreu or something…
I always knew Manny had a type A personality
Fredo,
Concerning Varitek’s rating as a Type A, doesnt the system also include his previous year and not just last year?
Welcome back Rebecca.
FA classifications are based on three years of performance and are done by position, not overall. It’s the top percentage of OFs, INFs, C, etc.
Thanks Pete.
So basically catchers around the league are garbage for Jason to be considered a type A. Jorge should have been an A++ type free agent last year than.
Drive 4-5:
It is indeed 2 years. An old post from MLBTR explains it:
First let’s start with the positions Elias uses. All players (not just free agents) are put into one of five groups as seen below. Position is designated as the position at which the player appeared the most over the last two seasons.
Group 1: first basemen, outfielders, and designated hitters
Group 2: second basemen, third basemen, and shortstops
Group 3: catchers
Group 4: starters
Group 5: relievers
Here are the stat categories used for each of the five position groups.
1B/OF/DH: PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI
2B/3B/SS: PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI, Fielding percentage, Total chances at designated position
C: PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI, Fielding percentage, Assists
SP: Total games (total starts + 0.5 * total relief appearances), IP, Wins, W-L Percentage, ERA, Strikeouts
RP: Total games (total relief appearances + 2 * total starts), IP (weighted slightly less than other categories), Wins + Saves, IP/H ratio, K/BB, ERA
It also counts on how much heart, and how big the C is on your chest.
“Good bye Gerrit Cole compensation pick.”
Pretty sure that pick is protected.
The Cole pick is protected.
I wonder if Bud Sleig has something to do with making Varitek a type A?
hey rebecca, i finally went to cooperstown. made a post about it 2 threads back.
““Good bye Gerrit Cole compensation pick.”
Pretty sure that pick is protected.”
It is.
Welcome back Rebecca!
Does it really matter that much if you miss out on a draft pick here or there it seems like half of them end up getting traded in some way or another before they make it to the Bigs. Unless there is a one of a kind player lurking out there for the up coming draft I have a hard time getting worked up about it.
“I wonder if Bud Sleig has something to do with making Varitek a type A?”
Nowhere near as much as Pudge’s OBP and fielding %age did.
“Does it really matter that much if you miss out on a draft pick here or there”
You think the Yankees would miss Jeter??? Would the Rays miss Longoria?
Early round picks are gold these days, especially in a fading economy.
Milton Bradley, Type B. Hmmm.
I’d love Bradley on the Yanks except that he’s so injury prone. He has a lot of ability but he can’t stay healthy.
no more outfielders!!!!!
Hi Rebecca -
I was thinking about you today and wondering how you’ve been surviving grad school. Hope you’re doing okay.
Yankee Diva -
I’m pretty much of the same opinion regarding draft picks. None of them are MLB ready, anyway.
Bradley misses a lot of time with injuries which is why he’s type-B despite his type-A numbers (and personality) from last season. He’s too much if a liability in the field and in the clubhouse for me.
On what planet is Darren Oliver a type A Free Agent. Cripes. How many relievers get the A designation?!?!?!?!
Rebecca is back, next Trisha (Andy P. needs someone to defend him), then the return of Bobcat.
Bobcat gets too much credit. Miller was the guy with the real scoop.
Due to the fact that we did not offer arbitration to any of our players, we are almost guaranteed to have no high draft picks this off season. I hope the yanks have done their research and we can get a steal in the third round because that will probably be our only chance to get a major leaguer out of this draft.
I guess I’m asking of all the first round draft picks end up being Jeters? For Longoria I will need more than one year to determine if he is a star player. How many young players were traded in deals and ended up being great additions for their new teams?
Pat
He does not get any credit, as he was completely wrong. But he sure stirred things up for a while.
“Due to the fact that we did not offer arbitration to any of our players, we are almost guaranteed to have no high draft picks this off season. I hope the yanks have done their research and we can get a steal in the third round because that will probably be our only chance to get a major leaguer out of this draft.”
No high draft pick? We can’t lose the compensation picks for failing to sign Cole and Bittle. So #29 (first round) and #76 (second round) are no matter what Yankees draft picks.
So we have the 29th pick in the draft for cole regardless of who we sign? That will be our only good pick – i hope we make it count
my guess is that the winter meetings will have no games of basketball or bowling
Oh and 76 for bittle – I hope we make them both count. So signing CC will cost us pick number 26 and a supplemental Im assuming. And signing another type A will cost us 59 and 90?
Jay, I dunno how the GMs could afford going bowling in this economy as they did a couple of weeks ago. Things have changed in the last couple of weeks.
Saying at least the Yankees will have 1st and 2nd round picks from the guys that wouldn’t sign last year is weak. They should have picked guys that would sign. Those are 2 prospects that should already be in the system.
Cashman should have definitely been able to pick up 5 top picks for Abreu, Marte, and Pudge. None of those players would have taken arbitration if the Yankees told them they’d be cut 16 days before the season and then would have only gotten 30 days pay. The Yankees should have 7 picks in the 1st 2 rounds of the draft instead of 2.
The only excuse that kind of made sense would be wanting to keep spots open on the 40 man roster, but Cashman didn’t even mention this in his explanation. There’s no way any of those 3 would have accepted arbitration knowing they’d get cut 16 days before the season with no team to sign them.
I’ve read about these players possibly filing grievances, but I don’t think that could happen. The Yankees would just be following the rules. The Yankees could have just told Abreu and Pudge that there’s a great chance they would be cut 16 days before the season starts if Posada and Matsui showed they would be able to play and that they recommend not taking the arbitration contract.
“Oh and 76 for bittle – I hope we make them both count. So signing CC will cost us pick number 26 and a supplemental Im assuming. And signing another type A will cost us 59 and 90?”
Yes, if we sign C.C. that will cost us #26. The second type A free agent will cost us the second round pick, a third type A free agent will cost us the third round pick, etc.
“The Yankees would just be following the rules.”
except they wouldn’t be.
read the CBA.
Sadly for baseball and Blue Jays fans, their hopes of resigning AJ Burnett, just came crashing down with the death of Ted Rogers, last night.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb
If it makes sense for the Yanks not to offer arbitration to Abreu and Pettitte (I take no position here), did it make sense for the Red Sox to offer arbitration to Varitek?
What’s the difference between Ibanez and Abreu? Why did one get an arbitration offer and not the other? Why would 10 teams chase Ibanez (per MLB Trade Rumors) and none want Abreu?
If the prices of all free agents are falling, explain Ryan Dempster. Explain the continuing $140MM for 6 year offer to CC. Explain the arbitration offer to Orlando Cabrera.
Does anybody want to offer a grand unified theory of what is going on? I haven’t heard one yet that I think explains everything that is happening.
“So signing CC will cost us pick number 26 and a supplemental Im assuming. And signing another type A will cost us 59 and 90?”
this is incorrect.
you can’t “lose” supplemental picks.
the Brewers GET a supplemental pick, but there is no additional pick taken away from the yankees.
the yankees would lose their first round pick for Sabathia. that is all.
“If it makes sense for the Yanks not to offer arbitration to Abreu and Pettitte (I take no position here), did it make sense for the Red Sox to offer arbitration to Varitek?”
yes.
the Sox actually want Varitek back on their team.
the yankees do not want Abreu back.
“What’s the difference between Ibanez and Abreu? Why did one get an arbitration offer and not the other?”
because Abreu makes $16M and Ibanez makes $5.5M. if Ibanez accepted, what would it cost the Mariners, $7M??
why is it so hard to understand that every situation is different?
from the CBA:
“A Player whose Contract is terminated by a Club under paragraph 7(b)(2) of the Uniform Player’s Contract for failure to exhibit sufficient skill or competitive ability shall be entitled to receive termination pay from the Club in an amount equal to thirty (30) days’ payment at the rate stipulated in paragraph 2 of his Contract, if the termination occurs during spring training but on or before the 16th day prior to the start of the championship season. If the termination occurs during spring training, but subsequent to the 16th day prior to the start of the championship season, the Player’s termination pay shall be in an amount equal to forty-five (45) days’ payment at the rate stipulated in paragraph 2 of his Contract.”
i don’t know how to bold, so i will repeat the key part: “for failure to exhibit sufficient skill or competitive ability ”
it would be difficult for the Yankees to release a player like Abreu or Pettitte without repercussions.
Las Vegas has not been exempt from the bad economy. Teams will be sending only essential team personnel to the meetings.
At some point Bud Selig will address a mandatory gathering about the state of the economy and it’s affect on baseball.
duh, because money is money and opportunities are opportunities and wasting them is the same whether it is $7MM or $17MM. The same arguments apply.
Compare Varitek and Pettitte. We need a pitcher, but we don’t want to overpay for Pettitte. We are afraid the arbitrator will give Pettitte more in arbitration than his market value. Why don’t the Sox have the same fear about Varitek? Why didn’t they non-tender him and resign him for less?
I don’t like the “every situation is different” explanation because it is likely to result in sloppy, ad hoc reasons that don’t actually explain anything.
Abrue is a terrible defender and teams have probably caught on and don’t want to pay him what he’s asking for.
To the poster who said the Yankees can just cut players 16 games into the season, wouldn’t it make more sense to use that money on international free agents or draft picks who want over slot money?
Why would the Yankees offer arbitration to Pudge when he would no doubt accept it? Abrue might have also and do you really want an 18mil dollar right fielder who can’t field?
This is chess it ain’t checkers.
Grad school is kind of crazy and I’ve got virtually no reliable internet access in my apartment = no me posting
Anyway, I’m interested to see how everything works itself out. I feel like a lot more will fall into place once CC and Tex sign their contracts.
Been one heck of a football season, though.
Glad Plaxico doesn’t play for my team.
I really miss this place.
Oh, I have a boy toy, too. That’s fun.
I don’t like the “every situation is different” explanation because it is likely to result in sloppy, ad hoc reasons that don’t actually explain anything.
_______________
They’re called personnel decisions for a reason…you analyze each player individually
what are you talking about? what am I talking about?
I’m confused…
“Abrue is a terrible defender and teams have probably caught on and don’t want to pay him what he’s asking for.”
I’m not arguing that the Yanks should have re-signed Abreu. I’ve never been in that camp. My feeling is that the Yanks did not want to take the chance he would accept arbitration because his salary, whatever it turned out to be, would preclude them from doing other things they want to do. But if so many teams are interested in Ibanez, I suspect many teams would be interested in Abreu. I’m not buying Olney’s $8MM to $9MM per year estimate. Abreu would be a tremendous DH for someone.
But Pettitte? The Yanks are reportedly interested in AJ for $16MM per year on a long term deal but one year of Pettitte at $16MM (and who says he would get that?) is a risk that can’t be run? I’m dubious.
Yanks in 2010-
I’m just trying to figure out what the Yanks are really up to, and so far Cashman has me outfoxed. But I’m worried they are just trying to slash payroll.
Some slashing would be acceptable to me as a fan, but I’m worried they really are interested in going to $190MM or less next year.
Their moves so far seem consistent with that hypothesis.
Wave your hat,
I dont understand offering jon garland arbitration either. Do the angels hold draft picks in higher regard than most teams considering that they have consistently had the best farm system in the game (or at least one of the best) and that three of their best starters are from drafting not that long ago. Or did they not understand that a guy like garland is no longer worth 12 million or more in this economic climate. Especially after his horrendous numbers last season. The angels already have 4 solid starters under contract and escobar will be back within a couple of months. They also were supposedly in the race for CC – why would they risk offering arbitration to someone who had a 5 era last season?
Paul Byrd is another example that doesnt make perfect sense – is he worth 8 million right now or do the sox think he will not accept and want those draft picks? It seems as though every team is not on the same page. I know it depends on the crircumstances but under the circumstances i still feel like offering arbitration to these players doesn’t really follow the explanations people are throwing out.
Not that Im complaining however – if garland accepts the angels have six starting pitchers under contract going into the season and will add atleast 12 million in salary. That all but takes them out of the race for CC and the angels are really our only competition at the moment. I dont mind Byrd re-signing either to take up some sox payroll. And then, neither the sox nor angels would receive compensatory picks for the two which is fine because the yanks arent getting any comp picks either.
Cashman was quoted on this website as saying that these contracts would not be guaranteed. “for failure to exhibit sufficient skill or competitive ability” is up for interpretation, but Cashman was clearly quoted on this website saying these contracts would not be guaranteed.
Here’s what Pete Abraham wrote about this yesterday:
“such a deal is not guaranteed. A player could be released at the cost of only termination pay.”
I guess you could be right and Cashman and Pete could be wrong. I’d actually be more surprised with Pete being wrong than Cashman considering the way this winter has gone.
Hey welcome back Becca.
duh,
“For failure to exhibit sufficient skill or competitive ability ” is up for interpretation, but Cashman has been quoted on this website as saying that these contracts would not be guaranteed. I’m not sure where the quote is, but it’s definitely on here somewhere. Pete posted this yesterday about arbitration contracts: “such a deal is not guaranteed. A player could be released at the cost of only termination pay.”
You could be right and Cashman and Abraham could be wrong. I would be more surprised about Abraham being wrong than Cashman at this point.
The Yankees did not want to risk having Abreu back for AT LEAST $17M next year. That’s it.
They would have loved the picks, but what if Abreu accepted? Aging, declining player eating huge chuck of payroll. The plan is to get younger and more athletic with the position players, and get more pitching, pitching, pitching.
So CC signs with the yanks and the yanks lose 26 and another type A signs and the yanks lose 59? A third type A would result in the loss of 90. So if the yanks sign 3 of the combination of CC, Tex, Sheets, Burnett and Lowe we would lose a first, second and third draft pick (26, 59 and 90) but 29 for Cole – first round and 76 for Bittle – third round would be retained by the yanks? Of course, we should already have those two picks but it isnt the worst situation in the world.
Dave, Garland and Byrd are great examples.
IMO, The Angels must think Garland is worth $12MM on a one year deal, or they wouldn’t have offered him arbitration. Either that, or they are pretty sure he’s going somewhere else on a deal that’s better. That argues that the Angels, at least, aren’t that worried about the possibility of a great deflation in FA contracts.
The argument that the Yanks were afraid that Pettitte would accept is not much different from Garland. And, the Yanks could use Pettitte, while as you point out the Angel’s need for Garland is less.
So either the Yanks disagree, or they simply don’t want to lay out the $$ for Pettitte. We don’t have enough information yet to decide.
Rebecca-
Boy toy?
Oh no, you’re not into Karbarla, too!
Phil–He’s a medievalist that prefers football to baseball (which is a good thing, because he’s a Braves fan…)
So A-Rod and Karbarla he is definitley not.
He’s better looking, though.
Its pretty clear the Yankees don’t want Pettitte back at 16 million dollars.
Its also clear (at least at this time) Pettitte isn’t yet willing to take less than 16 million.
They don’t need to go to arbitration with Pettitte because they can still negotiate with him at this time without taking that step.
In addition, going to arbitration with Pettitte means you (the team) will look to win the hearing.
Meaning, they would have to bring up PED use, his declining second half performance, etc.
If you are the Yankees, why go that route when you don’t have to? It makes no sense.
This isn’t complicated. The Yankees feel that Bobby Abreu and Andy Pettitte are no longer players that should be priced in the 16+ million a year catagory, even if its for one season.
To that end, they are unwilling to put themselves in a position to have either guy back at those figures.
Are they cutting payroll? Yes. Cashman has said on numerous occasions this off-season the payroll will be less.
How much less? They still will be #1 in the game in payroll. They just aren’t topping the 200 million mark and don’t seem interested in carrying guys they no longer see as featured players for bloated salaries.
For all those concerned the Yankees are going the Marlins route, its a foolish belief. They still have an offer on the table to Sabathia which is the largest ever given to a starting pitcher.
They are just being more cautious as to who gets these types of offers.
“So CC signs with the yanks and the yanks lose 26 and another type A signs and the yanks lose 59? A third type A would result in the loss of 90. So if the yanks sign 3 of the combination of CC, Tex, Sheets, Burnett and Lowe we would lose a first, second and third draft pick (26, 59 and 90) but 29 for Cole – first round and 76 for Bittle – third round would be retained by the yanks? Of course, we should already have those two picks but it isnt the worst situation in the world.”
I’m still angry about losing Cole. From now on we should only draft college pitchers or young kids from the Dominican/Caribbean.
Here’s what Pete Abraham posted on October 15th about this year’s arbitration process:
Meanwhile, Brian Cashman was kind enough to tell me that the Yankees have no side agreements with any of their free agents to decline arbitration if offered. But that doesn’t mean they would accept, given that their contracts would not be guaranteed for 2009.
UPDATE, 4:28 p.m.: This directly from C-Money himself: “They would be on non-guaranteed contracts – but since it is a major league contract, they would get either 30 or 45 days termination pay in spring training if they are released…if they make team it becomes guaranteed.”
SJ44-
$200MM good. $190MM bad. $180MM, I won’t be watching the playoffs in the new Yankee Stadium. At least, that’s the way I see it.
Are you positive the Yanks wouldn’t make a decision to maximize short term profit by cutting payroll? They would not be the first team to do that.
I hope you are right.
But really, is Pettitte at $16MM for one year that much worse than AJ at $16MM for 4 or 5?
“$200MM good. $190MM bad. $180MM, I won’t be watching the playoffs in the new Yankee Stadium. At least, that’s the way I see it.”
I can’t believe this team shed nearly half its salary and the best replacement they can find for Abreu/Giambi is Nick Swisher.
Kenny.
getting younger would require increasing the number of good solid draft picks. When we can’t risk offering arbitration at the expense of losing four to six first, second or third round draft picks, I start to question the motivation to improve the farm at this point. Is offering AJ Burnett a four year contract after 10 injuries in 10 years THAT much less risky than risking abreu accepting a one year contract for two draft picks? 17 million is not a huge chunk of payroll esp in a one year deal and abreu is not an ancient player – he is 34 and the same age as JETER.
Also, he is certainly declining defensively but is a solid number three hitter on almost any team with speed, power and a high obp. His homers, obp, ops and avg all went up last year from 2006. Im not saying he was worth 16 million but people are talking about him like he was falling apart. He had 40 doubles, 20, stolen bases and 20 homers last year with 100 rbis and 100 runs. he bat 361 in late and close situations and 382 with RISP and two outs and 400 with a man on third and two out. He was one of the few clutch performers we had last season at the plate. He was not some washed up veteran and while his range was horrible, his bat will be sorely missed unless we sign teixera.
Wave your hat,
I know the feeling. I have been talking consistently about the risk and reward assessment for areu’s one year deal and draft picks and people constantly start asking me why I want abreu back for more than 16 million. it seems that some just dont get the distinction between signing abreu to a one year deal and offering him arbitration in hopes of getting draft picks. They are two totally separate issues.
This blog on October 15th:
Meanwhile, Brian Cashman was kind enough to tell me that the Yankees have no side agreements with any of their free agents to decline arbitration if offered. But that doesn’t mean they would accept, given that their contracts would not be guaranteed for 2009.
UPDATE, 4:28 p.m.: This directly from C-Money himself: “They would be on non-guaranteed contracts – but since it is a major league contract, they would get either 30 or 45 days termination pay in spring training if they are released…if they make team it becomes guaranteed.”
If the Yankees want to cut pay roll, maybe they shouldn’t have given a reliever, who they could have gotten 2 picks for, $4 mil a year when the team is stocked with bullpen arms.
Payroll doesn’t determine outcomes of the games. If they did, the Yankees would have won the last 8 World Series.
AJ Burnett is a better pitcher than Andy Pettitte at this point in their careers. Paying Andy Pettitte 16 million dollars, even if its for one year, is a poor allocation of money.
AJ Burnett isn’t getting a 5 year deal from the Yankees.
He’s also 5 years younger than Pettitte. So, its understandable why the Yankees, and other teams, see him as a better multi-year option.
If they signed both Sabathia an Burnett, Pettitte would be the #4 guy in the rotation. Nobody is paying a #4 guy in any rotation in the game 16 million dollars next year.
If they have a 180 million dollar payroll and play well, they will win.
Adding more money to the payroll insures nothing. Especially in these economic times.
Perhaps, no arbitration offer signals they believe they can get other pitchers better than Pettitte at an equal or lesser salary. At least, I hope so. Currently, 34 wins are missing from last year not to mention 30+HRs(Giambi+Abreu-Swisher).
Milton Bradley all day!! Requires no compensation and solves the CF problem at the same time – I’m definitely with it all the way. The only negative is that now with Burrell and Dunn also not costing picks, obviously they’re more of the “guaranteed production” types than Bradley is, but they’re both awful defensive players, and certainly don’t have the ability to play CF.
Of course, I’m sure the Yankees arent interested in Bradley because of his apparent ‘attitude problems.’ Lest we forget, they only like washed up players with apparent attitude problems! (Sheffield, Johnson, etc)
I really hope the Yanks are at least considering Sheets on a short term deal. If he stays healthy he is an Ace.
SJ44,
From where the Yanks stand now, with the players they currently have under contract, with the contractual salary escalations they are obligated to pay, and with the salary escalations Wang and Nady will undoubtedly receive in arbitration, the Yanks are, barring a considerable amount of good luck, extremely unlikely to beat out the Rays and the Red Sox next year if they go into the season with a payroll of $180MM.
Add it up for yourself. If you think that payroll will get the Yanks to the playoffs, I envy you. You have another 7 months before bitter reality sets in.
I dont mind the yanks cutting payroll. What I do mind is greed. If the yanks want to be a little cheaper and allocate resources a little more wisely to make the team a better product thats fine. But if the team is going to suffer as a result of these cuts that is NOT FINE. And further, if the yanks think they can cut payroll, put out a mediocre product and raise ticket prices, sales prices and parking prices, they are not going to be looked at very kindly by the fans. And the question becomes: the yanks are making more money and spending less money so why exactly are we paying more money to go to the games?
Milton Bradley has played CF in 15 games over the past 3 seasons.
“If they have a 180 million dollar payroll and play well, they will win.
Adding more money to the payroll insures nothing. Especially in these economic times.”
I wholeheartedly agree. The only thing adding to the payroll would insure is that the Yankees would lose a ton of money if things went bad in the vein of 2008 and they missed the playoffs. A couple years of that and their future would look as bright as the Detroit Tigers’ does now.
I almost can’t believe that I just read that the Yankees can’t win with a $180MM payroll. What’s wrong with paying guys what they’re worth and solving problems creatively? When did the Yankees become the only team who can’t do that? Just because they haven’t done it the past couple of years doesn’t mean they can’t do it now. Cashman rebuilt the farm system solely so they COULD do it now, unless I am misinterpreting his management of the past 3 years entirely.
Oh and I forgot:
It is not possible to say, at the same time, and with any level of confidence, that Andy Pettitte for one year at $16MM is a poor allocation of money and AJ for even 4 years at $16MM per year is a wise allocation of money.
It is just no basis for that position. AJ is better than Andy, but he’s not that much better. And when you factor in the risk of the long term contract, you just can’t make such an absolute claim.
Al, you’re once again lurching into the land of unwarranted pessimism. Even if CC goes elsewhere, the greater Yankee family has already improved with the addition of Aceves’ lovely bride.
And Rebecca, after that horrendous Jets performance AT HOME against Denver vs. the Giants’ Plax-less win in D.C., this might not be the best time to trash talk against the defending champs.
“Milton Bradley has played CF in 15 games over the past 3 seasons.”
Yikes, I stand corrected. Knew he wasnt a regular there, but didnt realize it was that infrequent. My bad, should have looked it up.
Maybe Burrell/Dunn would be a better bet then. If the Yanks could then trade for David DeJesus, perhaps they could move Damon for a SP.
“Milton Bradley all day!! Requires no compensation and solves the CF problem at the same time – I’m definitely with it all the way. The only negative is that now with Burrell and Dunn also not costing picks, obviously they’re more of the “guaranteed production” types than Bradley is, but they’re both awful defensive players, and certainly don’t have the ability to play CF.”
None of those 3 guys have any business being invited anywhere near center field in Yankee Stadium, and I don’t think any will be brought in. Bradley is as much of a butcher in the field as Dunn and Burrell, which is pretty lofty company in terms of defensive ineptitude. They are all 3 DHs or 1st basemen going forward, and while the Yankees need offense, I don’t think they are giving contracts to any of those guys in the hopes that they’ll provide it. The idea of Bradley in CF, though, may have worked 4 years ago but now it is completely impossible.
“And the question becomes: the yanks are making more money and spending less money so why exactly are we paying more money to go to the games?”
Dave, your points are good, but I don’t think we can say for sure that is the Yanks’ intention.
And, the fact is, if what you are worried about occurs, the fans won’t pay more money to go to the games. They won’t sell out the stadium 75 times a year. In the short term they will, but not for very long. Look what happened in Cleveland and Baltimore. It could happen here.
SJ,
Burnett is not a better option for a multiyear contract because he is NEVER healthy. They dont want to give pettitte 16 million for one year thats fine. But they cant then turn around and offer one of the most injury prone pitchers in baseball a four year contract. Burnett is the last person in the world who the yanks should want for four years.
David Weathers is still alive?
Nick: Being embarrassed on the field is one thing…
Though, having been in midtown on Sunday in that horrendous weather, I can’t imagine playing a football game, let alone winning one!
I’m still waiting for my lollipops
A Bay area beat reporter Tim Kawakami had a brief convo with CC Sabathia at last nights Warriors home game.
“I asked, so are you talking to the Giants?
CC: (silence, turns away.)
Turns back to me. I say: So that’s an official no comment?
“No comment.”
End of conversation.”
Sounds like CC is mum and still at home deliberating. I think that 140 million sitting in his lap is starting to tempt him.
“David Weathers”
If he signs on with someone in ’09 – I think that will be his 19th season in the majors…
This move, particularly with Abreu and Pudge makes no sense from a winning point of view. Even if they accept (I doubt) it gives us a lot of options. Posada at this point is still a big question mark. Who knows how the Melky, Gardner experiment is going to turn out. With Swish at first, Abreu, Nady and Damon sounds pretty good to me.
But when you look at it from a financial point of view it begins to come clear. A couple of weeks ago Hal officially took over the team. I think that the only explanation is this wasn’t Cashman, but Hal. The Boss is showing fiscal restraint. Wow what a concept. Maybe Hank isn’t so bad after all.
Yeah, the Jets would never have a guy like Plax on their team, much too classy a franshise. Um…. whatever! No Plax, no problem for the G-Men so far.
Regarding the lollipops, soon that little smiley emoticon will turn into an actual smile, as the long-awaited lollipops will not be long-awaited anymore in a matter of days. And this time I’m not bluffing (hint: I have a tracking number).
Unless we pay Dunn or Burrell significantly less than 16 million on a one year contract, i dont see how they are much of an upgrade from abreu. Everyone who is bashing abreu is criticizing his defense – but both of those guys are pretty bad defenders as well. And while they have slightly better ops (very slightly better) abreu had speed which neither of them do.
When Tom Yawkey died in 1976, the Red Sox lost a wealthy owner who spent a lot of money (often badly) on his team. After his death, a more cautious mentality took over, and the likes of Carlton Fisk, Fred Lynn and Bruce Hurst were allowed to walk in their primes.
I’m surprised that this thread discussion is focusing on “the economy” and alleged new “market values.” As a Sox fan, my hope has been that superfan and super-rich George would be replaced by an organizational structure less maniacal about winning, and more concerned about the bottom line.
Isn’t there a possibility that something very basic is happening here? Specifically, that Hal has told Cashman that he doesn’t want his inherited money squandered. In short, that the Yankees’ financial situation isn’t fundamentally different, but their financial culture is?
Maybe Hal doesn’t want to outspend everyone by $80M any more (or $20M, for that matter), regardless of revenue projections.
It happened to the Sox when Yawkey passed away …. nothing like a rich man whose MLB team is his favorite toy. The sky’s the limit ….
Al, after the enormous stinkbomb that the Warriors dropped in Oakland last night, I am more optimistic than ever that CC will decide that NY is the place to be.
BBB
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:51 pm
“Milton Bradley has played CF in 15 games over the past 3 seasons.”
Yikes, I stand corrected. Knew he wasnt a regular there, but didnt realize it was that infrequent. My bad, should have looked it up.
Maybe Burrell/Dunn would be a better bet then. If the Yanks could then trade for David DeJesus, perhaps they could move Damon for a SP.
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Never mind that Bradley can’t play center field, in 2 years, he’s only played in the outfield in 78 games. He has trouble staying healthy as a DH.
I like the comment about milton bradley playing center. Just yesterday, someone was trying to convince me that manny would be a decent fit in right field. HA! He cant even play left in fenway and he will play right in yankee stadium. Yea right
Brian, you’re really surprised that Yankee fans are discussing new economic realities rather than fantasizing that the franchise will now emulate the 1970′s Red Sox?
Good luck with that.
Tarheelyank
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:57 pm
This move, particularly with Abreu and Pudge makes no sense from a winning point of view. Even if they accept (I doubt) it gives us a lot of options. Posada at this point is still a big question mark. Who knows how the Melky, Gardner experiment is going to turn out. With Swish at first, Abreu, Nady and Damon sounds pretty good to me.
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With the way Ivan Rodriguez played after joining the Yankees, there’s also no sure bet that he’ll even be as good as Cervelli as a backup.
I dont understand what it matters if the yanks have a slightly lower payroll if most FA will take a lower salary. Then, it would seem, we could get more for less and 180 million could buy us 200 million worth of players last season. At least logically that could make sense.
Its not just that the yanks spend more money than other teams but also that they have more money than other teams. How many mlb teams sell out almost every home game or break 4 billion in attendance every season? How many mlb teams could get away with charging the obscene prices in yankee stadium? I went to a pirates game and got a beer for around 4 dollars – imagine that? The yanks dont just spend more, they also charge more and sell more. The money is not coming our of George Steinbrenners pocketbook for all these free agents all the time.
I thought the arbitration situation may impact CC;s thought process as im sure it effected other free agents. i HAVE a feeling players may start trying to sign contracts more quickly.
Isn’t there a possibility that something very basic is happening here? Specifically, that Hal has told Cashman that he doesn’t want his inherited money squandered. In short, that the Yankees’ financial situation isn’t fundamentally different, but their financial culture is?
Brian-
You are poking the sore spot. That has not yet occurred to everyone here, but for those it has occurred to, we are desperately hoping that what you suggest is not the case.
Jose Molina is an above average back-up catcher. He would start on some teams. He has a cannon for an arm, am I the only one who remembers that he through out something like 45% of runners?
The only way I see declining arbitration on Abreu making sense is if they are going to go hard after Teixeira to make up for his offense. Abreu was the 2nd best offensive player on the team and one of its most clutch hitters. Defense and all, you are still downgrading the team by letting him go. A team that couldn’t hit with RISP, and you aren’t willing to take one of your best RISP guys back even if he does accept it?
1 year of Abreu is a steal in today’s market. He’s still a .300/20/100 20 SB guy and led the league in 2 strike hits. He’s patient and dangerous. Who’s going to replace his bat unless you sign Tex? Remember, this team lost last year because of offense more than anything. If not for pitching injuries, they had enough to make the playoffs the way they were going (before Joba and Wang were hurt).
And for all of you who are forgetting, Nady is a much worse butcher in the field than Abreu. Did you see him play LF last year? He has no range.
Green Beret — you are right that Ted Rogers death does affect the market for AJ Burnett. Rogers is one of the richest men in Canada (I suspect he was much richer than George Steinbrenner), and was willing to spend money to make the Blue Jays competitive. Much to the chagrin of the company, he was becoming a fan, and was willing to spend his way into competition even if he lost money. He started getting sick last year.
It is likely that some corporate type will take over the company, look at the books, and not understand why so much money goes into operating a baseball team that pays its uneducated employees millions. So as a Blue Jays fan, I think we are screwed.
AJ Burnett will not do well with the media when things are going bad in New York. He is very moody and won’t talk to you if you say something bad about him. You’ve been warned Pete!
Its funny if you go to riveraveblues – In one post rosenthal talks about how the yanks may no longer be big spenders in this economic crisis. In the next post, a state assemblyman discusses why ticket prices are shooting up by hundreds of dollars. And fans still continue to say that they want payroll to go down significantly for so called roster flexibility and to spend on the minors – well the yanks led all organizations with 8 million in signing bonuses to minor league players last season (chump change in the grand scheme of the organization) and we managed to acquire nady, marte and abreu in midseason deals with payroll over 200 million. Not to mention, we have plenty of roster flexibility next season as damon and matsui are both coming off the book as is nady most likely. I laugh when fans want payroll to decrease because we will get absolutely nothing out of it – ticket prices and sales prices will continue to skyrocket whether we sign teixera, CC and Burnett or if we sign no one and go into the season with a rotation of wang, joba, hughes, aceves and coke.
GB7- Is it GB or?
With the way Ivan Rodriguez played after joining the Yankees, there’s also no sure bet that he’ll even be as good as Cervelli as a backup.
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Youre right there is no sure bets. But seeing as Boras is Pudge’s agent, and Varitek is a type A, I think chances are slim he would accept arbitration to be a possible backup.
from riveraveblues:
Picking up where I left off this morning is Ken Rosenthal. While I think the MLB-wide arbitration decisions portend tighter economic times throughout the sport, Rosenthal feels that, contrary to what many of us assumed, even the Yankees will suffer. Outside of a soft market for outfielders, Rosenthal expects the Yanks’ 2009 payroll to be significantly lower than their 2008 total and doesn’t believe the new stadium will be as lucrative in its first year as it would be had the economy been stronger. Of course, we’ve heard the payroll line before, and the Yanks still have a $140 million offer outstanding to CC Sabathia. The Yanks’ spending, though, may not be as all-encompassing as we once thought it would be. (67)
Here’s what Cashman should have done if he wanted to cut payroll.
$182 million 25 man roster not counting pay increases to Wang and Nady. Over $42 million freed up next year.
Sign CC for $142mil/6, Tex for $140/7, and Andy for $12/1. Offer arbitration to Abreu, Pudge, and Marte letting them know they will be cut if they accept and get the 5 picks for them.
Lineup: Damon, Jeter, Cano, A-Rod, Tex, Matsui, Posada, Nady, Gardner
Rotation: CC, Wang, Pettitte, Hughes, Joba
Bullpen: Rivera, Bruney, Melancon, Coke, Ramirez, Veras, Aceves
Bench: Molina, Cabrera, Miranda, Betemit
Nick …. Actually, it’s MY fantasy that the Yankees will become fiscally cautious (aka “cheap”) now that George is in the background. At least you guys only lose Giambi, Pettitte and Abreu. After Yawkey died, we lost Lynn, Hurst and Fisk.
Unlike most of my other fantasies (e.g. Tom Brady’s discards), however, there’s some reason to hope for it becoming reality.
“I dont understand what it matters if the yanks have a slightly lower payroll if most FA will take a lower salary. Then, it would seem, we could get more for less and 180 million could buy us 200 million worth of players last season. At least logically that could make sense.”
You are correct if we were starting from scratch, but we aren’t starting from scratch.
I’ll walk you through it. Last year’s payroll was approximately $209MM. Approximately $88MM came off the books.
Assume the Yanks shoot for a payroll of $180MM in 2009. That means the Yanks can add back $59MM in 2009 payroll, right?
OK, ARod and Cano are due a total of $8MM in salary escalations. I think it’s reasonable to guess that Wang and Nady will get a total of $3MM in arbitration escalations. And we signed Marte and Swisher for approximately $9MM. That leaves $39MM.
Now, the Yanks have offered CC approximately $23MM. Let’s say he takes it. Now we have $16MM for the rest of the team.
With $16MM, we have to get 2 starting pitchers, and any offense/bench you think we need.
So it is:
CC/Wang/Chamberlain/??/??
1B: Swisher
2B: Cano
SS: Jeter
3B ARod
C: Posada
LF: Damon
CF: Gardner
LF: Nady
DH: Matsui
Bench: ??
I just don’t see the team I just listed beating the Rays or the Red Sox. Prices are going to have to drop a lot to fill all those holes for only $16MM. You better hope we don’t have any injuries, that Posada can catch, Cano and Swisher bounce back, Nady continues to perform as he did in 2008, Gardner can hold down CF.
Well, that’s the picture. Maybe I’m being too negative. Maybe the Yanks will make a brilliant trade. But I just can’t see it right now.
matt,
once a player is no longer on the team they all turn into miguel cairo hitting jose canseco fielding has beens. i DONT GET IT. I cant imagine that no one remembers how much we sucked offensively or couldnt score with men on base. Abreu for 16 million and one year would have been a steal last season. But i guess times have changed and the yanks couldnt risk it.
JB (Blue Jays Fan)
You are correct about the Blue Jays, especially when the 80 cent is taken into account. The Blue Jay payroll goes up by 20% with the fall of the Cdn $
I think if you think about the Yankees payroll in relation to other teams’ payrolls, they’re still outspending everyone else. Also, I would probably be safe in assuming that most other teams are cutting their payroll (and other expenses) as well. So, again, in relation to the spending of other teams, the Yankees will more than likely be very close to where they’ve been.
But most important, as SJ said, spending over 200 mil has not brought back a WS. It’s not what you spend, but how you spend it. As long as the Yankees are allocating wisely, they’ll be fine. And frankly, I truly don’t understand all the griping about Pettitte and Abreu. Most of the people who post here would only have taken these guys back at a pay cut anyway.
JB (Blue Jays Fan)
December 2nd, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Green Beret—you are right that Ted Rogers death does affect the market for AJ Burnett. Rogers is one of the richest men in Canada (I suspect he was much richer than George Steinbrenner), and was willing to spend money to make the Blue Jays competitive. Much to the chagrin of the company, he was becoming a fan, and was willing to spend his way into competition even if he lost money. He started getting sick last year.
It is likely that some corporate type will take over the company, look at the books, and not understand why so much money goes into operating a baseball team that pays its uneducated employees millions. So as a Blue Jays fan, I think we are screwed.
AJ Burnett will not do well with the media when things are going bad in New York. He is very moody and won’t talk to you if you say something bad about him. You’ve been warned Pete!
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It’s really a pity about Mr. Rogers. It’s taken some time and a lot of money for Toronto to make the improvements. The team, assets and communications company may stay in the family, but, trying to get the approval from MLB to approve the family heir will take at least 30 days.
Rebecca-
Better looking than ARod — WOW!
You go girl!!
How come we didn’t offer moose arbitration. he nwould have decines it and would have given us 2 draft picks
Tarheelyank
December 2nd, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Youre right there is no sure bets. But seeing as Boras is Pudge’s agent, and Varitek is a type A, I think chances are slim he would accept arbitration to be a possible backup.
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Rodriguez knows that his playing days are closing fast,and his hof numbers are made. His main interest is only one last big check. Money, not playng time is now his driving force.
So long Plax.
Oh CC? Where are you?
Sorry for all the typos, the keyboard buttons are kind of small for my fingers
Every dollar over the luxury tax threshold is actually 2.
Mike: we’d only get compensatory draft picks for Mussina if he declined arbitration and then signed with another team. No compensation if he stays retired. Not even a Moose Bar.
Braves acquire Javier Vazquez!
ESPN’s Peter Gammons says Vazquez is flying to Atlanta tomorrow for a physical. The White Sox will send Vazquez and lefty Boone Logan to the Braves for Reyes, Lillibridge, and another prospect.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....serio.html
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aww, no more free runs for the Yanks.
If the Braves are getting Vazquez, they are probably out of the Peavy talks. Wonder what San Diego will do now.
Let them get Vazquez. This way there is 0 market for KT who has alienated his Ace pitcher in Jake Peavy and has to move him. How about the Yankees fleece the Pads for Peavy and Gonzalez? I know it will never happen, but with the stove is so cold a guy has to heat things up somehow.
Greeneret7
Rodriguez knows that his playing days are closing fast,and his hof numbers are made. His main interest is only one last big check. Money, not playng time is now his driving force.
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Exactly why he would go for at 2yr deal not arbitration. Unless he would make less then 13 mil in a two year deal. What happened to the B in Greeneret7?
Oh okay
Tarheelyank
December 2nd, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Greeneret7
Rodriguez knows that his playing days are closing fast,and his hof numbers are made. His main interest is only one last big check. Money, not playng time is now his driving force.—————————————————————————————
Exactly why he would go for at 2yr deal not arbitration. Unless he would make less then 13 mil in a two year deal. What happened to the B in Greeneret7?
———————————————————–Just a screwup when I retyped my Sn to sign on. My guess is that nobody’s going to offer him a 2 year contract, especially at the price that he’s asking.
The usual cast of ownership bottom feeders in MLB must be getting a little nervous at the thought of the Yankees using some sanity with overloaded payroll.
Too many have become too comfortable with what luxury tax has meant to their personal wallets.
Brad
Not to mention the reduction in Yankee revenue sharing payments, due to the Stadium.
dave
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Due to the fact that we did not offer arbitration to any of our players, we are almost guaranteed to have no high draft picks this off season. I hope the yanks have done their research and we can get a steal in the third round because that will probably be our only chance to get a major leaguer out of this draft.
============================================================
we get 2 pick from the past draft that are protected by not signing cole & the other kid thay we can’t lose.if we sign any type a free agents then we forfit the number one pick in the next draft i believe so what you said is wrong.
this is why i believe cashman didn’t offer pettitte & abraeu arbitration because we no matter what get a number one pick & another pick,not sure if the second one is a # 1 or sandwich pick.
another thing,we got joba as a pick when we lost gordon to the phillies.
draft picks can turn a team around quickly,lower payroll.
the red sod drafted pedroia,ellsbury,buchholz,lester,papelbon & many others.
“the red sod drafted pedroia,ellsbury,buchholz,lester,papelbon & many others”
Papelbon was only available because Riverdance didn’t offer him arbitration.
I’m pretty sure CC is the only person in America right now who would wait 3 weeks with 140 million on the table.
If Cashman’s logic in not offering arbitration to Abreu, Pudge, and Marte is that we have picks from not signing draft picks from last year, he’s an idiot. Those picks represent players that should already be on this team.
Joba Chamberlain is a perfect example of how Cashman screwed up this time around. He let Gordon go in arbitration and got Joba. He could have done the same thing with Marte and gotten 2 talented young prospects. Abreu and Pudge wouldn’t have accepted and that would be 3 more chances to get good young players. 7 of the top players coming into baseball this year would have gone a long way towards getting the pay roll under control and getting good young home grown talent to Yankee Stadium.
Someone made a good point a bit earlier–if the Yankees diminish their payroll and thereby reduce the revenue sharing of other teams, does that remove some of the competition from the trade/fa market and force contracts lower?
if some chance that abraeu,pettitte & pudge accept arbitration it will add 42-50 million to the yankees payroll making it impossible to sign anyone.
their payroll will be close to 200 million if they accepted.
they probably would accept because because the yankees overpay for players they get paid the most if the accepted arbitration from the yankees.
do you think any team will pay pettitte 16 million or more? not a chance in the world,absolutely impossible so he would accept because he would get 16 million or more because arbitrators usually donn’t force a pay cut & could give a raise as crazy as it sounds.
I’m not arguing offering Pettitte arbitration.
The worst case scenario of offering Abreu and Pudge arbitration would be paying them something each between $2 and $3 million and cutting them before the season started. The thing is, there is NO WAY they would accept that because by that point, no team would have any money to give them. There was NO risk involved in offering them arbitration if what Cashman said about arbitration contracts not being guaranteed is correct.
no. 27: are you saying that Cashman just passed up on seven more Jobas because he doesn’t understand the logic of the arbitration process in December 2008 as well as you do?
the yankees wan’t burnett before pettitte not both.
if given a choice they take burnett especially after pettitte struggled & the whole ped issue.
Chiming in late on the previous Hall of Fame thread:
Rice and Mattingly should be in, no way on Blyleven. Rice and Mattingly were feared players who dominated the league and carried their teams. I don’t give a s— what their OBP or other stats were. Kirby Puckett not worthy? you are nuts if you think that. The man carried TWO not-so-talented teams to WS victories. Has intangibles that had to be seen to be believed, kinda like those who run down Jeter for his stats and miss what he brings to a team. Munson should be in as well. Rickey a no-brainer.
Blyleven was a very very good pitcher. Was NEVER elite or dominant. In my opinion, same as Mussina. Neither Bert or Moose belong, IMO.
McGwire – no way. a one-dimensional player whose one dimension was injected from the outside.
Lee Smith should be in. Here’s how I measure a closer: when he was coming in from pen, you could kick back and say, this one’s over. The way it is with Rivera, and never was with John Franco, Jose Mesa or many other guys with big save totals.
Nick,
All I’m saying is that Cashman passed on the chance to pick up 5 of the top players in the draft this year by not offering arbitration to Marte, Abreu, and Pudge. He’s clearly said several times that arbitration contracts are not guaranteed.
Could you honestly see Abreu, Pudge, or Marte taking a non guaranteed contract knowing that the Yankees would cut them 16 days before the season started? Do you think they’d end up with more money by doing that than they would by declining arbitration and seeing what they could get now?
“There was NO risk involved in offering them arbitration if what Cashman said about arbitration contracts not being guaranteed is correct.”
Why didn’t the Braves cut Gregg Maddux in 2003?
Maddux shocked the braves by accepting their offer of arbitration. They were completely blindsided by this – it was Maddux and Boras is his agent.
That decision drastically changed the direction of that entire franchise.
John Scheurholz had a fixed budget and the money that Maddux was going to get in arbitration was already allocated.
So what did he do?
He traded Kevin Millwood – Millwood was 27 and coming off an 18-8 season. He was arguably their best pitcher and he was the guy that they were going to build the staff around in the post Maddux era.
Why didn’t they simply cut Maddux? Instead Schuerholz traded Millwood under duress and with no leverage to the Phillies for Johnny Estrada.
So is John Scheurolz – who is considered to be one of the great GM’s in contemporary baseball history – just really stupid?
No the arbitration players contracts aren’t guaranteed but you can’t just cut them willy nilly. There are very specific stipulations that need to be met that are very hard get to.
Schuerholz turned the entire franchise upside down because he knew he couldn’t just cut Maddux. The union would have filed a grievance and won.
Why does this issue of simply cutting players keep coming up?
If it was that simple they would likely have just done it.
Wave Your Hat
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Yanks in 2010-
I’m just trying to figure out what the Yanks are really up to, and so far Cashman has me outfoxed. But I’m worried they are just trying to slash payroll.
Some slashing would be acceptable to me as a fan, but I’m worried they really are interested in going to $190MM or less next year.
Their moves so far seem consistent with that hypothesis.
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the yankees saw the rays compete with 1/4 the payroll.they also have seen first hand yhat signing every fa on the planet doesn’t work.
you usually need 3 solid pitchers & cc,wang.joba is a great start,probably the best in baseball,easilly.
those 3 pitch the bulk of post season games.how well they do will determine how far they go.
if they outpitch the other teams pitchers they advance.as long as the offense hits at the right time,you have a few power hitters or power distributed nicely,good defense,bullpen it should allow them to be right there.
the 4th & 5th starters are not as important as long as they keep it close & eat innings the bullpen comes in play.
i do not like the yankees outfield defense.
look at the 90′s yankees.who would of thought all those signings would of built a dynast?????
y
dave
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:13 pm
So CC signs with the yanks and the yanks lose 26 and another type A signs and the yanks lose 59? A third type A would result in the loss of 90. So if the yanks sign 3 of the combination of CC, Tex, Sheets, Burnett and Lowe we would lose a first, second and third draft pick (26, 59 and 90) but 29 for Cole – first round and 76 for Bittle – third round would be retained by the yanks? Of course, we should already have those two picks but it isnt the worst situation in the world
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yes.
CB,
Your 7.28 post was a great example of the consequences of arbitration; GMs have to be prepared for a player to accept.
Clearly, the Yankees were not prepared for Abreu, Petitte and less we forget, Marte, to accept.
Scherholz would never be considered 2nd rate, he was universally regarded as among the best in the game.
CB – I remember that Millwood trade. It never made sense to me, but, I never put 2 and 2 together at the time. It’s a great example of how unexpected contractual obligations can really destroy your plans on a grand level.
And John Shuerholz is decidedly not stupid. I’ve heard some say that he should be considered HOF material for his work. It really serves to explain why Cash did what he did yesterday. He wasn’t taking any chances, what with what’s going on in this market.
yes as far as the yankees keeping the 2 picks no matter what from the last draft.
yes, no. 27, but Cashman didn’t pass on that chance because he’s an idiot or because he was acting in an illogical manner. Despite the rules and what Cashman has said, I seriously doubt the team would offer a player arbitration with the intent of paying them $3 million and cutting them if they accepted. That would be a waste of money too and not a reputable way of doing business, whether it’s allowed or not.
bru -
thanks for the comment but i corrected myself in a post a little further down. I actually had two more posts in which i think i got the draft order correct.
bru,
fact is, we should have signed the picks from last year so it is difficult to say that we didnt need compensatory picks because we have the first and third round picks guaranteed. Fact is, we could have gotten six more picks in those rounds but not anymore. And we will probably sign one, two or three type A free agents losing our picks in the first, second and third round respectively (Not including the ones for last years free agents that were not signed.) So we may end the draft with two picks in the first three rounds that we should have had last year – not the best way to build the farm system (Cashmans number one goal) if you ask me, but what do I know.
BBB
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:49 pm
“If they have a 180 million dollar payroll and play well, they will win.
Adding more money to the payroll insures nothing. Especially in these economic times.”
I wholeheartedly agree. The only thing adding to the payroll would insure is that the Yankees would lose a ton of money if things went bad in the vein of 2008 and they missed the playoffs. A couple years of that and their future would look as bright as the Detroit Tigers’ does now.
I almost can’t believe that I just read that the Yankees can’t win with a $180MM payroll. What’s wrong with paying guys what they’re worth and solving problems creatively? When did the Yankees become the only team who can’t do that? Just because they haven’t done it the past couple of years doesn’t mean they can’t do it now. Cashman rebuilt the farm system solely so they COULD do it now, unless I am misinterpreting his management of the past 3 years entirely
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i agree.the yankees have a billion pitchers.no all are great or will make it but a lot will.
there are layers upon layers of pitchers starting with brackman,joba,hughes,kennedy,acevez,coke,melancon,sanchez,betances.
if they can produce good pitchers for a few years like i think they will they keep who they wan’t & trade the surpluss for position players or prospects.
good,young,under controll pitchers are priceless.
The millwood deal was completely about economics. He was the only tradable asset Scheurholz had whose salary roughly matched up with what Maddux was going to get from arbitration.
So Scheurholz was forced to make an absolutely awful trade in turn.
And I’d be very surprised if Scheurholz doesn’t make it into the Hall of Fame one day. What he did for that franchise was unbelievable. What a judge of talent.
I didn’t think they’d offer either Pudge or Andy arbitration. Abreu surprised me. But thinking through it more carefully I see the logic in it.
There is no way I’d want to see Abreu return next year, never mind for $18M.
This team was not very good last year and needs to change.
They’ve talked about building the team around pitching, getting younger and getting more athletic for several years now. These are glaring problems.
The value of turning down arbitration lies in the opportunity it affords to change the roster.
No its on Cashman to rebuild the team and to make it better.
We’ll see.
And one other thing – the 2009 draft from what we can tell now is just not going to be very good. It’s really not all that exciting once you get past the top 5 guys or so.
Celerino Sanchez
December 2nd, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Chiming in late on the previous Hall of Fame thread:
Rice and Mattingly should be in, no way on Blyleven. Rice and Mattingly were feared players who dominated the league and carried their teams. I don’t give a s—- what their OBP or other stats were. Kirby Puckett not worthy? you are nuts if you think that. The man carried TWO not-so-talented teams to WS victories. Has intangibles that had to be seen to be believed, kinda like those who run down Jeter for his stats and miss what he brings to a team. Munson should be in as well. Rickey a no-brainer.
Blyleven was a very very good pitcher. Was NEVER elite or dominant. In my opinion, same as Mussina. Neither Bert or Moose belong, IMO.
McGwire – no way. a one-dimensional player whose one dimension was injected from the outside.
Lee Smith should be in. Here’s how I measure a closer: when he was coming in from pen, you could kick back and say, this one’s over. The way it is with Rivera, and never was with John Franco, Jose Mesa or many other guys with big save totals.
When did anybody ever fear Mussina or Blyleven? How about this question? when did anybody ever fear Whitey Ford, or Juan Marichal, Catfish Hunter or or Bob Lemon all HOFers).
Nothing that impressive about Lee Smith, except for save total…look at the rest of his numbers. They’re no better than John Franco’s.
Neither Mattingly, Puckett, Thurman Munson or Dizzy Dean belong in te HOF.
Celerino Sanchez
repost from above.
***When did anybody ever fear Mussina or Blyleven? How about this question? when did anybody ever fear Whitey Ford, or Juan Marichal, Catfish Hunter or or Bob Lemon all HOFers).
Nothing that impressive about Lee Smith, except for save total…look at the rest of his numbers. They’re no better than John Franco’s.
Neither Mattingly, Puckett, Thurman Munson or Dizzy Dean belong in te HOF.***
“if the Yankees diminish their payroll and thereby reduce the revenue sharing of other teams, does that remove some of the competition from the trade/fa market and force contracts lower?”
You may be confusing luxury tax with revenue sharing. Luxury Tax threshold this year is $162 million. The Yanks would pay a 40% penalty for everything over that. If they had a 192 million payroll, they would owe 12 million luxury tax. Luxury tax money is not distributed to teams directly. 50% of it is allocated to player benefits, 25% is for the industry growth fund to promote MLB and MLB programs and 25% of it is used to develop baseball programs in countries without organized baseball.
The money distributed to smaller market teams comes from revenue sharing. Every team pays 34% of revenues into a revenue pool and the money is then allocated equally back to all teams. The Yankees have the highest revenues in MLB therefore the money they pay in is greater than any other team and greatly exceeds the portion they receive back.
If it’s true that the next year’s draft is not so hot, then Cash’s move really demonstrates that you have to know what you’re talking about/doing.
People go on as if “draft picks” are some magical thing. They’re only so good as the players picked. And then developed.
What’s the saying, “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush”? A good, dependable ML player may be worth more than someone who needs 3-5 development time.
NYY got into trouble because they were paying top dollar for other team’s stars. The problem was that for the most part, their production started decreasing after 3 years, so they had to find high dollar replacements. Those replacement players careers usually overlapped the players they replacad. NYY could never get away from the constant turnover at top price. It finally caught up to them.
I hate seeing Abreu and Pettitte leaving, but, they had to find a better way.
wave your hat,
You are right – 180 million is not feasible this season. i meant it would be logical to have a small salary decrease if the prices are going down on so many free agents. If we are currently at 121 million and adding on arbitration, escalations and signing marte and swisher costs 20 million approximately, then we are currently actually sitting at around 141 million. Adding CC at 6 years and 140 million would be about 23 million and with an escalating contract could be about 20 million which puts us at 161 million. Then, if we offer Tex a 8 year 160 million offer which seems too high at the current state of affairs, we would be right at 181 million. We tack on pettitte for a reasonable rate taking the economic climate into account and the fact that he is a fourth starter next year for 7 million and we are at 188 million.
We need one more starter which could come by trade or we could sign someone much more rational than burnett or lowe like sheets for an incentive laden two year contract at no more than 12 million per season (he may be willing to accept arbitration right now which would be one year and 12 million) and we are at 200 million. While the contracts to pettitte and sheets may seem low, it also seems like second tier free agents will get the shaft this off season and be forced to take deals they wouldnt have even looked at last season. That would drop our salary almost 10 million from last season while improving our rotation, lineup, defense and so called “roster flexibility.” I think at this point tex and CC should be thrilled to get 20 million next year and long-term deals just looking at the arbitration process last night. Not only do we sign two great players but they are both young and these two moves solidifies our rotation: CC, Wang, Sheets, Joba and soon Hughes for the next eight years. This rotation is young, talented and could be the best in baseball by next season.
Tex would solidify our infield for atleast the next two seasons (until jeter can no longer play short) with arod, jeter, cano and tex.It also makes us alot better defensively. The outfield: Nady, swisher and Damon could be totally remade next off season and matsui is also a free agent at the end of the year and could play dh for the season before he is out the door. Next season, we dont need to fill any spots outside of the outfield in a free agent class that includes Holliday and Vlad. Additionally, matsui leaves, posada could take part-time dh and we could trade prospects from a young catcher. These three moves sets us up for years. Sheets is on a short-term contract and could either be replaced or re-signed – when sheets is healthy, he is an ace and far better than burnett.
If this Javier Vazquez deal to the Braves really does include Tyler Flowers – well that’s all you need to know about the value of back of the rotation starters who don’t cost that much and throw a lot of innings.
I’m very surprised that Wren would agree to put Flowers in that deal. With McCann in tow the Flowers was always going to get traded.
But did they really need to use that chip to get Vazquez?
No idea where they are in the Peavy trade – but I’d have to think Flowers could be better leveraged in a package for Peavy.
People love to knock Ian Kennedy. If he only developed to the point of being ok and durable the yankee’s would get a ton in return for him in a trade.
No matter how many times you see it – teams will just do remarkable things to get pitching.
Who says Pettitte is leaving?
I’m afraid I have to agree with Wave Your Hat’s assessment. There is simply no way to field a competitive team with only $40M left to spend for three starters and three bench players. It is all well and good to want to have a significantly lower payroll, but to lower it by $30m in one year will not be pretty. I would love to hear someone give a realistic way to fill out a good team with this payroll limitation.
The smartest thing that Sheets could do is to accept arbitration from Milwaukee and sign a one year contract to try and improve his health record. If he stays healthy and has a year baed on his talent, he could sign the knd of contract that Burnet is asking for…4 ars and about 17-18 million a year.
I don’t know what the specifics would be for cutting a player with an arbitration contract, but from what Cashman said, it doesn’t seem like it would be hard that complicated. Even if it would be hard to cut them, I still think that Abreu and Marte would have gone for long term deals rather than 1 year deals with the Yankees.
CB,
I know what you are saying but I fail to see the logic in talking for years bout getting younger and more athletic and then, passing up the oppurtunity to get any draft picks outside of compensation for last year’s failures. I know there was a risk abreu would accept but there is a tremendous risk in offering burrnett four years. There is a huge risk in offering Lowe four years. There is even a risk in offering CC six years despite what some may think. Baseball is all about risks – I think risking Abreu coming back for one season at 16 mil (which last season would have been a completely reasonable contract for him) is worth the reward of a first round draft pick and a supplemental pick. Particularly, on a ball club that continues to stress building the farm up and getting younger. Getting younger through drafting and developing players is cashman’s motto – it appears that this is his entire goal in the organization if nothing else and it seems that in the time since cash has taken over that is the one sole accomplishment he has made for this organization. It seems to me that particularly in cashmans case, the burden of abeu for 16 mil next year was very little when put up against the reward of a first rounder. And especially when the team is going to sign atleast two and possible three type A free agents and lose all of their own first, second or even third round picks (not including the guaranteed.)
CB
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:25 pm
No matter how many times you see it – teams will just do remarkable things to get pitching.
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And right now, that’s NYY’s greatest commodity…young starting pitcher and relief pitchers.
greenberet,
I really dont see pettitte leaving despite not being offered arbitration – the rules changed and the team can continue to negotiate with the player and doesn’t have to wait a significant chunk of time before re-initiating like they used to. That may be another reason so many players were not offered arbitration. I really cant see a situation in which pettitte doesnt come back unless cashman really tries to lowball him and pettitte goes to the dodgers. But fact is, the yanks need pitching and they need innings. Pettitte is going to come at a reasonable cost and it is almost a given that he will toss 200 innings. The yanks are soo desperate for pitching they almost have to find a way to get him back at a one year deal for 10 million or less.
Resigning Marte was an easy decision. They’ve needed a good left handed relief pitcher for years, and 4 mil a year for that isn’t bad. Marte is eons better than Affeldt and better than Ron Mahay, and look at bwhat they’re getting. Mahay is gong to be 38 years old and getting 4 mil a year. None of these are even setup pitchers.
Correction: Marte is getting 3 mil a year.
“I don’t know what the specifics would be for cutting a player with an arbitration contract, but from what Cashman said, it doesn’t seem like it would be hard that complicated.”
If you can find a few examples of when this has actually happened in real life then I’d be interested in knowing who those players and teams are.
I cannot think of this happening even once to any major player.
If it’s almost never happened then I’d guess there’s a reason why.
For example, the collective barganing agreement.
The baseball union is arguably the strongest association of any in the country.
I find it difficult to believe that they would allow player who accept arbitration to simply get cut for minimal reason with no recourse.
So if you know of examples of when this has happened I’d be interested.
It is possible that Cashman was making a general statement about the nature of the contracts not being guaranteed rather than a pragmatic statement of what it would entail to actually DFA a player like that in spring training.
I have a sneaking suspicion that on or around August 1st, Madonna is going to offer ARod arbitration. He’ll accept but she’ll cut him anyway. This will start a bidding war for his services between Samantha Fox and Lisa Lisa but in my heart of hearts (and based on his recent choice of neckwear) he’ll end up signing on with a resurgent George Michael.
Greenberet,
Look at sheet’s stats last season. He won 9 games by the all star break with an era under 3. He started the all star game. He pitched 200 innings. He finished with an era of 3. He was dominating the entire league and one of the best in baseball before the all star break. And he has a minor tear of a muscle by his elbow and will not require surgery, He will be ready long before the spring. AJ burnett wasnt half the pitcher sheets has been. I dont get where teams come off saying that sheets is injury prone and doesnt even deserve to be in a discussion where burnett deserves a four or five year deal. Sheets must have a really bad agent. Burnett is being overhyped more than pavano was when we signed him. Burnett has had ten injuries in ten years. Most of which have been related to his shoulder and elbow. Sheets have had fluke injuries mostly completely unrelated. Sheets is two years younger than burnett and has been in the league almost two year shorter but has pitched more innings than burnett. It is almost mind boggling how GMs who are supposed to know everything about the sport continue to think burnett is worth 4 times as much as sheets or more. 4 years ago that comment would have been a joke. Five months ago or around the all star break that comment would have been a joke. Burnett had a 5 era at that point and sheets was one of the best pitchers in baseball. Burnett hasnt even pitched in an all star game and sheets has pitched in four and started one. I guess, even GMs arent immune to the agent hype. I cant help but feel this is all because of the injury sheets has currently but the difference between how the two are being discussed in the FO is soo drastic nothing logical could explain it.
The yanks should sign sheets for 2 years and 25 million and he would probably decline arbitration and accept in a heartbeat. We would have gotten the best deal this off season and i can say that without even hearing what the other deals actually are. When healthy, Sheets is an ace. How many aces out there would sign for two years and 12.5 million?
Pettitte has felt neglected the last time in NY and with Houston and didn’t resign with them. I thin LA Dodgers, Atlanta and St. Louis may be taking a crack at him.
“When did anybody ever fear Mussina or Blyleven? How about this question? when did anybody ever fear Whitey Ford, or Juan Marichal, Catfish Hunter or or Bob Lemon all HOFers).”
If you are putting Mussina in the same universe with Ford, Hunter, Lemon and Marichal you are delusional. OK, the guy went out on a high note and was nice to Pete. So what? He’s not a Hall of Famer in my opinion. Mussina had nice stats and nice career. But watching him for 17 or 18 years, i did not once think, wow this guy is one of the greatest to ever play the game. If Mussina never pitched for the Yankees and retired with the exact same numbers no one here would be pushing him for the Hall
Lee Smith was a dominant closer. See, that’s the problem with comparing stats. John Franco was not half the pitcher Smith was even though he has 400 saves. He’d come in, give up two hits, probably a run, and get a “save”. People like to rip Kenny Rogers for the bases-loaded walk in the playoffs but they forget Franco blew a save in that one.
Sheets’ elbow was in bad shape at the end of the year. He’ll make 13-14 mil this year on a one year deal and if healthy, next year will get a 4 year deal worth maybe 65-70 mil. If he signs a two year deal now, he’ll not get a long term deal for that money in the future.
Just because something is technically allowed and there’s a Cashman quote that discusses the process does not mean that’s it’s practically feasible. I think cutting players who accepted arbitration would be a poor way to do business and would end up hurting the Yanks a lot more than it would help. Like CB, I would also like to see some examples of this being done.
“Sheets’ elbow was in bad shape at the end of the year. He’ll make 13-14 mil this year on a one year deal and if healthy,”
Most important word in that sentence is – if.
If Sheets has confidence in his elbow then I could see him even accept arbitration – he could get $15-16M for one year.
But if he blows his elbow out during the year he’s got a real problem.
He’ll be out of the game for at least another year without drawing a salary while doing his rehab. Then he’ll likely have to take a minimal one year deal for low money and incentives the year he comes back.
We’ll see how confident Sheets is in his own arm.
Celerino Sanchez
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:45 pm
“If you are putting Mussina in the same universe with Ford, Hunter, Lemon and Marichal you are delusional. OK, the guy went out on a high note and was nice to Pete. So what? He’s not a Hall of Famer in my opinion. Mussina had nice stats and nice career. But watching him for 17 or 18 years, i did not once think, wow this guy is one of the greatest to ever play the game. If Mussina never pitched for the Yankees and retired with the exact same numbers no one here would be pushing him for the Hall”
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You made the point that Mussina and Blyleven didn’t instill the fear in the hitters. I pointed out that those four pitchers didn’t either.
If you look at their munbes, they are extremely similar to Ford, Marichal, Hunter and Lemon…in most cases…better. Muna and Blyleven, hardly ever pitched against old traditonal #8 hitters and pitchers. Hunter only faced the DH for the last half of his career.
if Vazquez is worth $11.5M for each of the next two years and also four players, I still don’t see the fear of Pettitte getting a few million more without giving up draft picks or the players. There stats for the last two years are pretty similar, and even with Andy’s second half I would rather him pitch an important game than Vazquez. Ozzie G. all but called Vazquez gutless.
I dont know. People are acting like sheets had a down year last year or he just came out of a year of rehabbing. it will be a tough task for sheets to duplicate his first half performance last season. And i feel like no matter what sheets does within the next year – even if he wins the cy young, he will not lose the injury stigma attached to his name. You may be right and he may accept arbitration but i know he can get a better deal than one year at 12 or 13 million and there is no guarantee that he will get a raise from last years salary which was 12. He may not want to sign a one year deal because another injury might crop up next season or the economy may be just as bad next off season as it is this off season.
Sheets is only 30 years old but he is in his prime right now – he may start to drop off at some point. I feel like he may want to test the waters of free agency. iF HE is hearing names like burnett and lowe getting possible four year deals, he has to be curious as to what he can get. Sheets finished the season with 200 innings and an era and whip far better than those two guys. He is also younger and has had a much better career so far. if i were sheets, I wouldnt take one year and 12 million. But he is clearly being underhyped by the current market so who knows? I think the yanks would be foolish not to see what this guy could be looking for. Are the yanks allowed to initiate contract negotiations after a player if offered arbitration? If i were the yanks i would ask him if he would take a two year deal full of incentives for a little more than 12 million per season. He can make decent money for two years, build up his reputation and if he stays healthy, he can rake it in in two years. Its tough to improve the reputation he has in a single season but if he stays on the current path he could probably do it in two. I mean just look at last season: he won 9 games by the all star break and no one really seems all that interested in signing him now. What would change next off season if he were to put up similar numbers as he did last season which were stellar?
“Lee Smith was a dominant closer.”
I saw Lee Smith pitch. I never thought he was particularly dominant.
I thought he was big guy with a huge fastball that was pretty straight who didn’t have the kind of command you’d want in a pitcher who was pitching in late game situations.
I never watched Lee Smith and thought – this is a guy who belongs in the hall of fame.
I never thought he was as good as Gossage or even Dan Quissenberry at this best. I thought he was a level below them.
Mike Mussina was a guy I watched and was always impressed. His combination of power fastball and array of pitches coupled with his plus plus command was a very rare combination. Watching him I thought this is a guy who’s definitely hall of fame potential – not a slam dunk. But definitely up there if he pitches long enough.
Mussina and Cone always reminded me of each other. Watching them both, I though each had hall of fame talent.
Cone just didn’t last long enough to qualify.
But I was much more impressed watching Mussina – especially when he was on the Orioles then I ever was watching Smith.
CB
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:58 pm
“Sheets’ elbow was in bad shape at the end of the year. He’ll make 13-14 mil this year on a one year deal and if healthy,”
Most important word in that sentence is – if.
If Sheets has confidence in his elbow then I could see him even accept arbitration – he could get $15-16M for one year.
But if he blows his elbow out during the year he’s got a real problem.
He’ll be out of the game for at least another year without drawing a salary while doing his rehab. Then he’ll likely have to take a minimal one year deal for low money and incentives the year he comes back.
We’ll see how confident Sheets is in his own arm.
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I agree 100%. It’s a big gamble….either way. He’ll either go for broke or play it safe.
Have a question for you, CB. Besides Tony Pena, who’s the top catching instructor around? NYY needs to get him and put him in Tampa for the year to work with Montero and Romine to help clean up their catching skills, in particular, their footwork. Had not Pena been installed as the bench coach, I’d send him down at his regular pay.
I was talking to a friend today you spent the Thanksgiving weekend up at Peeble Beach….He played a round of golf ( $ 495.00 + $ 600.00 a night at the Inn in order to get perfered starting times ) with Ken Forsch who is the Asst. GM for the Angels…..During their four hours of golf Forcsh said that the Angels believe that the Yanks will make a big play not only for CC Sabathia, but Mark Texeria….He sees them as the Angels biggest obsticale in retaining him……I guess we’ll see everyone’s cards in the next week or so…..
“If he signs a two year deal now, he’ll not get a long term deal for that money in the future.”
i dont understand why you say that… You are saying if he signs a one year deal – he can get a four year deal the next year but if he signs a two year deal, he cant get a long-term contract? What gives you that impression? And what if sheets is seriously injured next season? He will not be able to get a contract the year after. Either, he can stay healthy for a year and become an FA again in which case his reputation may not have changed that much or he can get worse or injured in which case he will get no decent offers at all. In two years, he could potentially improve his reputation if healthy and if he is injured, he will have a second year to put up decent numbers again to ensure that he at the very least gets another mediocre contract.
Nobody was saying that Sheets had a down year….only that his season was cut short and that there are bigger injury issues with him at this point than there is for Burnett. Strictly my opinion.
“if Vazquez is worth $11.5M for each of the next two years and also four players, I still don’t see the fear of Pettitte getting a few million more without giving up draft picks or the players.”
Then why did Atlanta trade one of the best young catching prospects in the game along with three other prospects for Vazquez rather than making a run at Andy?
And $16m is nearly 30% higher than $11.5M. That’s a huge difference.
i thought montero was going to b a first baseman by the time he got to the majors. We could really use a young catcher who could put up 40 homeruns and mantain a 400 on base percentage so montero staying as a catcher would be far more beneficial esp if we sign teixera in the near future,
PAT M
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:06 pm
I was talking to a friend today you spent the Thanksgiving weekend up at Peeble Beach….He played a round of golf ( $ 495.00 + $ 600.00 a night at the Inn in order to get perfered starting times ) with Ken Forsch who is the Asst. GM for the Angels…..During their four hours of golf Forcsh said that the Angels believe that the Yanks will make a big play not only for CC Sabathia, but Mark Texeria….He sees them as the Angels biggest obsticale in retaining him……I guess we’ll see everyone’s cards in the next week or so…..
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OK, Pat. If this doesn’t happen….I’m tracking you down and breaking your golf clubs.
Thanks for that news, Pat..much appreciated. The thoughts of that will kill some time over the next 5 days.
Andy would go to atlanta? I heard he doesnt even want to go back to houston and was even hesitating going to talk with the dodgers. iT SEEMS like he only want to come back to ny unless cashman gives him the cold shoulder which i wouldnt put past brian.
Ben Sheets? Seriously? You all complained about how fragile Carl Pavano was and you really want the Yankees to sign this guy?
Follow this link and scroll to the section entitled “Why can’t he stay healthy?”
http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....en-sheets/
It doesn’t matter if he can pitch like Cy Young if he’s not on the mound.
Pat….Ken and Bob Forsch…two names from the past..both really fine pitchers.
B the way…my 11 year old nephew has a new personal pitching instructor….Eric Rassmussen…Cards pitcher from the 80s.
dave
The Yankees offered Andy 10mm. He thinks he is worth more. Good luck with that.
“Besides Tony Pena, who’s the top catching instructor around? ”
GB7,
Good question. I’m not really sure. Pena would be great with kids – look at how much he helped Jorge.
I don’t know who their catching coach is. But I do think they should have one. Someone similar to Nardi Contreras – catching is so difficult that that level of coaching seems warranted to me.
GB7,,,,You might be doing me a favor by wacking my clubs…Start with the damn putter…..Rasmussen originally was with the Yanks…Once again he didn’t round out fast enough and was gone…I think he pitched with the Pads as well….11 year old with a former Big Leaguer, not bad…Who’s forking over the 50.00 for a 1/2 hour lesson…
“uring their four hours of golf Forcsh said that the Angels believe that the Yanks will make a big play not only for CC Sabathia, but Mark Texeria…”
Pat,
Very interesting. Who knows what is going to happen. It’s clearly not in the yankee’s best interest to announce that they want to get involved with Tex.
That’s partly why all of these stories that Boston has made Tex an absolute must have player who they won’t be outspent on and to whom they are going to give the largest contract in franchise history are so puzzling.
How does that benefit the Sox, especially when dealing with Borass? Do you really need to tell him you’re dying for his guy?
It’s tough to know. I’d imagine it’s tough for the Angels themselves to know. Which is why the yankees being so mum on Tex is such a good strategy. Why show your cards? On the flip side I also think it’s easy for teams to get paranoid that the yankees are going to come in and sign ever player on their team.
We’ll see. He’s a good fit so until Tex signs somewhere the yankees will always be thought of as a threat.
Did Forsch think the sox were a true threat to sign tex?
CB
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:16 pm
“Besides Tony Pena, who’s the top catching instructor around? ”
GB7,
Good question. I’m not really sure. Pena would be great with kids – look at how much he helped Jorge.
I don’t know who their catching coach is. But I do think they should have one. Someone similar to Nardi Contreras – catching is so difficult that that level of coaching seems warranted to me.
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I always thought that Rick Cerone would be a good choice as a catching instructor, but, I think he’s happy printing money (last I heard). Jerry Naron or Joel Skinner would be decent choices, also. I just hope that Matt Nokes and Don Slaught don’t see this idea.
Vrsce December 2nd, 2008 at 9:16 pm
dave
The Yankees offered Andy 10mm. He thinks he is worth more. Good luck with that.
_________
Thanks for the memories Andy, good bye and good luck. Well maybe not the good luck part.
PAT M: I just finished a great book you might be interested in. It’s called “The Match” by Mark Frost, it’s all about this legendary but true match at Cypress in 1956 between Ben Hogan and Bryon Nelson on one side and Ken Venturi and Harvie Ward on the other. Lot’s of great background on the lives and careers of those 4 and the evolution of competitive golf in the US in the 20th century.
PAT M
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:20 pm
GB7,,,,You might be doing me a favor by wacking my clubs…Start with the damn putter…..Rasmussen originally was with the Yanks…Once again he didn’t round out fast enough and was gone…I think he pitched with the Pads as well….11 year old with a former Big Leaguer, not bad…Who’s forking over the 50.00 for a 1/2 hour lesson…
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I always wantd to be a hit man. I could develop quite a clientele of disgruntled golfers. I could use the name “The Mechanic” (Charles bronson).
ERic Rassmussen (born Harry Ralph Rassmussen) was no relation to the Yanks Dennis Rasmussen. Dennis really dropped from sight after getting traded from NYY to Cinncinati for Bill Gullickson. Never really understood that deal.
Terry did ask about the Sox and he got the impression from Forsch that Boston has other issues to deal with…..SS, bullpen and their bench strength….Tek will be back with them he felt..But a starting catcher ( Napoli ??? ) is on their chart of things to accomplish…..Nick in SF, I’m all over that book,,,great story….Is Peeble really 5 benji’s to play now ???? Played there in 94 and it was 195.00….Shot a 97 and never went back……
PAT M
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:20 pm
GB7,,,,You might be doing me a favor by wacking my clubs…Start with the damn putter…..Rasmussen originally was with the Yanks…Once again he didn’t round out fast enough and was gone…I think he pitched with the Pads as well….11 year old with a former Big Leaguer, not bad…Who’s forking over the 50.00 for a 1/2 hour lesson…
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Eric Rassmussen is my brother’s next door neighbor in Ft Myers, Forida. He is great with young Lttle League kids. He’s the pitching coach for the Ft. Myers Miracle (Twins FSL team). The kid used to spend his summer evenings going to the games there and going into the clubhouse to play video games with some of the players like Garza.
Checking back in and saw a lot of interesting posts.
Question – if the Brewers don’t think Sheets is healthy, why would they offer him arbitration? The Brewers must know his health situation better than anyone else.
“Terry did ask about the Sox and he got the impression from Forsch that Boston has other issues to deal with…..SS, bullpen and their bench strength….”
Interesting. The sox biggest weakness is still their pen. But they also have a very well balanced team and given their cost structure are well positioned financially (unless Henry’s hedge fund really does tank I suppose…).
I could see them making a play for Napoli or even Matthis. Texas seems to be willing to hold on to all of their catchers until a team makes a deal on their terms.
If the yanks did get Tex that would be a kick. Interesting to see what people complaining about the abreu arbitration issue would say then.
I still don’t think they’re likely to give out two huge contracts. But if the angels believe it…
I’ve never played Pebble, but I think you’re about right on the price. Crazy. I’d rather drive down and play the poor man’s Pebble, Pacific Grove.
GB7,,,,Thanks,,,got my Rasmussen’s confused…..
PAT M
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:44 pm
GB7,,,,Thanks,,,got my Rasmussen’s confused…..
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No problem. I looked at Dennis’ record and after leaving NYY, he did have a couple of good years and lasted much longer than I remembred. Ended up with 91 wins.
“Question – if the Brewers don’t think Sheets is healthy, why would they offer him arbitration?”
I think it’s hard to draw an inference from the Brewers offering arbitration as they could just feel confident that some team will be willing to take a shot on Sheets or they could feel Sheets is healthy enough.
If they hadn’t offered him arbitration that would have said a lot, IMO. That would have been the more definitive statement.
They could very well feel that he’s healthy enough for a one year deal.
They took a shot on Gagne last year on a one year deal.
The other member of the foursome was former inf ( pro Golf instructor ) Donnie Hill….Donnie’s a good guy, and was a good ball player…Does some work for the Halos….
Everybody cross your fingers and toes. Jorge started his throwing program yesterday.
CB
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:42 pm
If the yanks did get Tex that would be a kick. Interesting to see what people complaining about the abreu arbitration issue would say then.
I still don’t think they’re likely to give out two huge contracts. But if the angels believe it…
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NYY could sign Sabathia or Burnett and Teixeira and still keep payroll in the 175 mil range. Gamble with Aceves in the 5 slot and maybe use Geise or Coke to take some of Chamberlain’s starts.
CB-
With respect to Sheets, I don’t think it would be easy to distinguish between healthy enough for one year and healthy enough for two. I’m not a doctor but I’ve never heard such a distinction is really possible.
It seems to me the Brewers must think he is healthy. Imagine the arbitration hearing. Sheets’ agent goes in and says he’s healthy, here’s what he did last year, here’s what he’s worth. What are the Brewers going to say, we don’t think he’s healthy so he’s worth less, but we want him anyway? Who’s going to buy that argument?
The Sox offered Varitek arbitration – don’t you think odds are he’ll accept? It seems like arbitration would be his best chance for a big payday. At least, the Sox can’t dismiss that. Don’t see them trading for a catcher until they know.
You know I’m still hoping the Yanks have Teixeira in their plans. As long as they are willing to go to $200MM I think it is doable.
pat
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Everybody cross your fingers and toes. Jorge started his throwing program yesterday.
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Maybe Posada could speed things up and toughen the shoulder like he does his hands. Get in the shower, pee in a glass and pour it on his shoulder. A whole new way of rehabbing is born and Posada breaks Bonds’ home run record.
Greenberet7…lol…very funny
“You know I’m still hoping the Yanks have Teixeira in their plans. As long as they are willing to go to $200MM I think it is doable.”
If CC snubs the Yanks Tex will be wearing pinstripes before the winter meetings let out.
CB,
“Interesting to see what people complaining about the abreu arbitration issue would say then.”
What people will say is that getting Tex was about the only way the Yanks could fill the #3 spot in the lineup.
Yanks in 2010
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Greenberet7…lol…very funny
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I’m very big on thinking outside box. Cutting edge all the way.
***outside the box***
GB7,
You’re a very sick man lol
GreenBeret7
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Maybe Posada could speed things up and toughen the shoulder like he does his hands. Get in the shower, pee in a glass and pour it on his shoulder. A whole new way of rehabbing is born and Posada breaks Bonds’ home run record.
________________________________________________
I think they call that a golden shower.
It might be better to think outside the shower too.
Green Beret 7,
I saw Ken Forsch pitch a no-hitter in the Astrodome years ago. He was a good pitcher for a bad team.
Drive 4-5
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:06 pm
GB7,
You’re a very sick man lol
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And getting worse every day. Maybe I can get the miltary to buy off on my sickness and get more money out of them. I’ll print some of my better ideas and show them as proof.
Plaxico Burress has spoken!
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com.....or-injury/
GB7
You turned my optimistic little post into something completely diferent and left me with an image I really didn’t need.
“With respect to Sheets, I don’t think it would be easy to distinguish between healthy enough for one year and healthy enough for two.”
I’d guess there is some kind of actuarial risk they can place on Sheets staying healthy for one year vs. two based vs. multiple based on his MRI and what his doctors say.
I was mostly just saying that it easier to assume someone may stay healthy for one vs. two.
With respect to arbitration – they aren’t going to make any health argument. They made the offer. Sheets threw 198 innings. That’s what the aribtrator will look at. Sheets threw a full season’s work load. That’s what’s important. The arbitrator isn’t a doctor – he’s just going to select what sheets should make based on what guys who are comparable in terms of performance are going to make.
I’d think Varitek will accept arbitration and then try to work out a deal with the sox.
For whatever reason – people in that organization truly believe that varitek has some kind of magic game calling ability that makes him uniquely valuable in ways which justify his replacement level offense and rapidly declining bat speed.
Evidently management there truly feels this way. That’s why they were willing to offer him arbitration and pay him over market value.
Bob Mac
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Green Beret 7,
I saw Ken Forsch pitch a no-hitter in the Astrodome years ago. He was a good pitcher for a bad team.
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I remember that game. Both brothers could really hit, too. They could have played the outfield or first base and made a good living.
Rick Wise was another good pitcher. The only pitcher to throw a no hitter and hit two homers in the game. He unfairly took a beating though, for being traded to St. Louis for Steve Carlton. He was also traded by St. Louis to Boston for Reggie Smith. Of course, late on, Boston traded him to Cleveland for Dennis Eckersley. Obviously, he had talent.
Lets face it…the Yanks are in a rebuilding mode…and not a retooling mode…they finished just north of 4th place in the division
Cashman is only going to add/retain payroll that fits the rebuilding mode…Abreu and Pettitte at 16 mil do not fit that criteria
Offering Abreu and Pettitte arbitration would just impede the process…because the reward is that they don’t sign, sign elsewhere, and we get picks…the risk is that they do sign and hamper our ability to get CC and Tex
“NYY could sign Sabathia or Burnett and Teixeira and still keep payroll in the 175 mil range.”
GB7, this is not one of your better ideas. Can’t be done for $175MM unless AJ or Tex takes much less than what most people seem to think they will get.
Pat
Thanks for the clarification re: luxury vs. revenue. Very helpful.
pat
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:13 pm
GB7
You turned my optimistic little post into something completely diferent and left me with an image I really didn’t need.
————————————————————
Sorry, Pat. Just thinking out loud…..maybe too loud, huh?
Not sure that spring water would accomplish much, though.
“What people will say is that getting Tex was about the only way the Yanks could fill the #3 spot in the lineup.”
Tex would be a huge upgrade in the #3 spot over Abreu, wouldn’t he?
And the point I was trying to make was that if the yankees do plan on making a run at tex that could be part of the reason why they didn’t want to assume the risk of offering abreu arbitration.
If Abreu accepts arbitration I just don’t see how the team can manage the money to sign Tex. So offerring Abreu arbitration could have cost them the opportunity of signing tex.
I have no idea if they will seriously pursue tex. But by not bringing back abreu and guaranteeing that he can’t surprise them by accepting arbitration the way maddux did with the braves in 2003 – they provide themselves with the opportunity to purse tex should they want to.
Again – no idea if they will. But one move could be linked to the other.
We’ll have to see.
If Abreu accepts arbitration I just don’t see how the team can manage the money to sign Tex. So offerring Abreu arbitration could have cost them the opportunity of signing tex.
__________
Exactly…it’s about rebuilding and establishing the core
Not hanging on to the past
Change we can believe in!
CB-
Wow, I hope you are right on the Sox’ attitude toward Varitek. I’d love to see him as their starting catcher for another year LOL.
I agree with you on Sheets. He’s likely to get a big award in arbitration based on what he did last year. All in all, I’d like to see the Yanks make him an offer. I think he’s likely to be a bargain on a multi-year deal.
Wave Your Hat
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:19 pm
“NYY could sign Sabathia or Burnett and Teixeira and still keep payroll in the 175 mil range.”
GB7, this is not one of your better ideas. Can’t be done for $175MM unless AJ or Tex takes much less than what most people seem to think they will get.
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They’d only be able to sign one top of the line starters. As I said, put Aceves at the end of the rotation with Geise or Coke picking up some of Chamberlain’s starts. Maybe take a crack on a low base, high incentive type pitcher to fill out the rotation.
“I think he’s likely to be a bargain on a multi-year deal.”
Depends on what you think a bargain is. There’s always some kind of cost associated with risk. Sheets injury risk will get translated into decreased monetary costs. But the cost of the risk related to him will still be present.
Similar case with AJ Burnett. Keith Law said something very interesting on Burnett (whom he ranked as the 4th best free agent available…). He said Burnett was one of the few top free agents who could wind up being a bargain for the team who signs him.
Every pitcher involves serious risk. Whether its giving a rotation spot to a rookie pitcher or sign a veteran to a free agent deall. All depends on how you want to distribute and moentize your risk.
Often, I think some risks are just more apparent than others so they are easier to focus on.
GB7,
Still don’t think it can be done. Without trying to be repetitious and boring, take a look at my 6:35pm post. There’s just no room for just CC and Tex or CC and AJ at the $175MM level, even if our fifth starter is Aceves at the major league minimum.
I firmly believe that they intend to get both Sabathia and Texeria….Not only do both players improve the team now, they are both young enough to be productive for at least the next 6 years….It also sends a solid message to the fan base that last season was unacceptable and that ownership intends to have a Championship caliber club for 09 and beyond…..Cashman has moved a wealth of salaries to make room for more than just Nick Swisher…..Fannies in the seats is still a way of life in Yankee land….It’s baseball, but it’s still entertainment…..
I really hope that the Yanks try to sign Tex whether they get CC or not. I think if they don’t try they will regret it. I know Cash says that they can’t sign 2 big free agents but that doesn’t make much sense. This year they got rid of Abreu and Giambi next year it will be Damon and Matsui. That is the 4 big bats for the lineup all that will be left is Arod. They are going to need a big bat definitely next year. After Tex this year there aren’t going to be any really good free agents available. The only 1 will be Holliday and I don’t think he is a good fit unless he proves this year he can hit out of Coors Field. Cash really has to worry about the lineup also. Even if they were to get CC and lets say Tex it would only look like a lot for 1 year because they have more money coming off the books next year. Cash stop being cheap!!
CB, no argument from me. You never know for sure if something is a bargain until all is said and done.
I’m just saying, if the Brewers are willing to risk one year, maybe it’s not a bad risk to risk two years, especially if there is an injury discount priced into the contract.
But it may turn out badly. If you want safety, Lowe seems like the way to go for the second FA pitcher.
Well this is interesting. Tony Regains the Angels GM said that report last week in the LA Times stating that the Angels were shifting focus from Tex to CC was false.
He told him that Tex and hitting remain the teams priority this off season given their needs.
There really seems to be no viable market for Tex outside of the yankees.
Tim Brown reported today that CC hasn’t had any substanitive conversations with the Dodgers. Now it looks like the reports of the Angels interest were blown out of proportion (or leaked by CC’s people…). The Giants just aren’t going to spend on CC.
The CC saga should come to a close soon. Hard to believe that the league’s best pitcher may only get one real offer – but that’s what might be happening.
“Regains said “there was nothing to” reports that had the Angels moving past Teixeira and focusing on starter CC Sabathia, adding that the club has “no concerns” about Teixeira’s left knee, which was subjected to arthroscopic surgery in 2007. A published report indicated the Angels were too concerned with the knee long-term to go past six years for Teixeira, triggering a move toward Sabathia.
The Yankees reportedly have a six-year, $140 million offer in front of Sabathia. It is highly doubtful the Angels would go that high for him with starting pitching one of their strengths and bigger needs on offense.”
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/ho...../index.jsp
“I’m just saying, if the Brewers are willing to risk one year, maybe it’s not a bad risk to risk two years, especially if there is an injury discount priced into the contract.”
Except that the risk is a need for TJ surgery. On a one-year deal, you don’t pay for the season of rehab. On a two-year deal, you do.
Sorry meant to write “there seems to be no viable market for CC outside the yankees”
“there seems to be no viable market for CC outside the yankees”
If that’s so, then they played it exactly right. They knew they had a strong position, so they came out big and scared everyone else away from the table.
Hopefully, that’s how it winds up playing out
whozat, the original point was, since the Brewers offered Sheets arbitration, they must not think he needs TJ surgery, since I don’t think they’d be anxious to pay for the first year of recuperation at a salary based on Sheets 2008u performance.
Doesn’t that make some sense?
It now appears that the Yankee front office had a preety good feel for what the market has proven to be…..As for the Angels and CC, I still contend with the impending free agency that awaits John Lackey it seems most unlikey that Arte M. is going to plunk down 130 mil or so and create a new world order for his pitching staff…..It has been stated out here that Mrs. Texeria wasn’t overwhelmed with the So. Cal life style…..She viewed her time her as a vacation…..
Yeah, what happened to all the west coast offers for CC?
I guess nothing´s going to happen before the meetings but what exactly is this guy waiting for? Maybe he thinks Barry Zito is going to spontaneously combust.
“whozat, the original point was, since the Brewers offered Sheets arbitration, they must not think he needs TJ surgery, since I don’t think they’d be anxious to pay for the first year of recuperation at a salary based on Sheets 2008u performance.”
Yes, I understood that. What you’re missing is how long TJ rehab takes. 18 months until you’re back to the guy you used to be, most likely. If Sheets needs TJ sometime in May or June, he’ll be looking at a return to the bigs in late 2010. So, if you give him a 2 year deal, you’re risking being on the hook for that whole time.
If you get him on a one-year deal, your risk is lessened…at most, you’re paying for a partial season of rehab.
“If that’s so, then they played it exactly right.”
Very well could be the case. Coming out with a large offer may have theoretically cost them $10M or so extra but the utility was that it avoided a bidding spiral upwards.
I’m not sure what CC can do. All the west coast teams are relatively strong on the mound and weak at the plate.
And boston is not interested at all.
“since the Brewers offered Sheets arbitration, they must not think he needs TJ surgery”
My point is that your conclusion does not follow. They feel good enough about his elbow that they will accept one year of risk. That does not necessarily imply that they would be willing to accept two years of risk.
They might also feel that the pitching market is strong enough that someone ELSE is highly likely to let Sheets know that there’s 2 years and more than 25 mil out there for him…that further mitigates their risk.
Whozat, you may be right, I don’t know. I’m tired and am going to shut it down.
But, I can’t imagine the Brewers offering Sheets arbitration if they thought he was going to break down halfway through the season.
If Sheets did, you are right, signing him to a two year deal would be a bad move. But the Brewers know his health better than any other club, and the way I read their offer, they must not think it’s likely.
I was just trying to assess relative risks, and figure out where the bargains might be.
Personally, I’m still hoping the Yanks sign CC, Tex, and either Andy or Lowe. That would make me happy, and would give me more hope that the Yanks will win the AL East next year.
Good night.
“All the west coast teams are relatively strong on the mound and weak at the plate.”
Ehhhhhxcellent.
Personally, I’m on the CC + Pettitte + a bat + a back-end guy/risky starter bandwagon. Burnett will get a deal as though he was not an injury risk…that would be dumb.
What’s the CC offer? 6/140? ~24MM AAV? Let’s say Pettitte takes 13?
24 – Moose, Carl + Kyle
13 – Himself + 3MM
So…that’s like, 20-25MM to spend on other needs while still bringing down payroll a solid amount, right? That’s basically Tex and Aceves, or Dunn and someone for about 8-10 mil. What 200IP 4.70 ERA starter could they get for 8-10MM?
“Whozat, you may be right, I don’t know.”
I am
Obviously I would like to see the Sox sign Tex.
However, if I was a Yankee fan I would really be pushing to have Tex signed. I’m not sure why Yankee fans are excited about Nick Swisher.
The guy hit .219 last year (yes that is even lower than Varitek’s average last year).
Yes he hits home runs but his life time batting average is .244.
I have said consistently that I think CC ends up with the Yankees, but I also think that Boston is a serious contender for Tex. Boras may be wanting Tex to sign with Boston so that it would leave both the Angels and Yankees to potentially go for Manny.
“It has been stated out here that Mrs. Texeria wasn’t overwhelmed with the So. Cal life style…..She viewed her time her as a vacation…..”
So they didn’t like living in Scott Borass’s guest house?
Agreed on the Angels interest. Until they put up a concrete offer skepticism applies.
They could in theory sign CC and trade say Joe Saunders or Santana in a package for a Prince Fielder or some other power hitter who might be available or even sign a guy like Dunn or Manny.
But that’s a very poor trade off in risk due to the way it changes the distribution of salaries.
For the angels spending big money on Tex while keeping Saunders/ Santana carries much, much less risk then signing CC and trading for a younger power hitter.
Its just much less risky to give the position player the big contract if that is their primary need.
To sign CC and trade a younger pitcher for a hitter would be a much higher risk use of the $120-160M the angels may have to spend than if they gave that big money deal to Tex directly.
You seriously believe in this economy that the Sox are going to sign Tex? When they would then have to eat most of Lowell’s salary in a trade- plus while overpaying Drew, Lugo, Tek, and possibly Ortiz if he doesn’t come back to form? Maybe they might have done so last off-season, but I think we’re going to see players go where they make the most sense because teams are going to be more cost-conscious and get by with what they have where they can.
Also, nobody is ridiculously excited about Swisher, but check out his OBP and his power over his career, not just his average, which doesn’t really tell you all that much.
how can the lakers lose unvilibable
ray,
Question – how does it benefit the sox for all of these stories to be leaked to the press regarding their intense interest in Tex?
Caffardo, Silverman, Gammons, etc. are all essentially reporting the same story. That the sox are dying to sign Tex.
Not all of them are going to independently come to this same conclusion at the same time and write such similar stories unless they have the same source.
And given history – especiallly with Caffardo and Gammons I’d have to think that source is someone inside the sox leaking this information to them.
I just don’t get how making their interest so public helps them sign Tex?
“Some slashing would be acceptable to me as a fan, but I’m worried they really are interested in going to $190MM or less next year.”
God forbid. I guess times are really tough when the payroll dips below $200 m!
Good evening CB,
Good question about why it would benefit the Sox to make their intentions known to the public. I honestly don’t know the answer to that question.
But it was interesting that the Yankees did the same thing and it may have worked out for them with CC if it scares off other bidders, but it didn’t make sense to me to come out and say that they were also going to make offers to both Lowe and Burnett.
“But it was interesting that the Yankees did the same thing and it may have worked out for them with CC if it scares off other bidders”
The Yankees followed up the talk with an offer to keep other teams away. Have the Sox made Tex an offer or just talked about doing it?
Seems like no one wants to be the team that Boras plays everyone off of for Tex.
ray,
Good evening to you. Thanks for the reply.
Regarding the yankees vocal support for going after Lowe and AJ – just guessing but the way I read that was that everyone knew the yankees had 3 large holes in their rotation and were looking for pitching. I thought their leaking interest in AJ and Lowe was them trying to let CC know that yes you are our absolute priority but there are two other guys on the market we are very interested with. I thought that was a direct message to CC and his agent. Not that it was going to do much – but it was something.
The sox could be trying to scare off other bidders – but I’m not sure that’s really practical. I don’t think the Angels will get scared off and if the yankees are interested they certainly won’t get scared off. So I’m not sure that’s it.
It’s just strange for any team to be so vocal about any player, especiallly a Boras player. If this was from Heyman I’d just write it off as Boras leaking the stories as he usually does.
But for multiple boston based writers to come out with essentially the same story and using hyperbolic language like the sox were “lusting” after tex and describing him as their dream player was peculiar.
That type of hyperbolic language was particularly strange in the midst of a free agency. I mean if the Sox have said they won’t be topped then why would Boras bother to given in at all?
It’s not often you see different writer’s use that same kind of overblown language to write essentially the same story about free agent.
It strikes me as very strange. And given the writer (particularly the way gammons is talking about this…) you can tell its from inside the sox organization. They wouldn’t just start using words like “lusting” without some basis.
Juan Cruz? A decent relief pitcher? Meanwhile, Garland and Milton Bradley are no prize pigs, but are they less valuable than Cruz?
“Juan Cruz? A decent relief pitcher? Meanwhile, Garland and Milton Bradley are no prize pigs, but are they less valuable than Cruz?”
It’s irrelevant. Relievers are compared only to other relievers (maybe also starters, but I don’t think so).
The Yankees would be making a Big Mistake signing
CC Sabathia! Aside from beating the Yankees in the
post season, Sabathia has been a post season bust!
The Yankees don’t need to get to the post season and get
knocked in the first or second round!
They need to get into the World Series at the very least!
The Rays made it with good young pitchers!
Why can’t the Yankees? Rehiring Cashman was another
Huge Mistake! The Steinbrenners are Clueless!
“With Swish at first, Abreu, Nady and Damon sounds pretty good to me.”
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Last year, these 3 combines for 62 HRs, and that was with Nady having a career year for HRs. This year, JD and Bobby will be 35. Abreu’s last 3 years… 15, 16 and 20 HRs. And JD, as much as I like the guy, is a walking injury. So this year, 50-55 HRs from our entire OF?
Add to that, this might be the worst defensive OF in MLB. When slow-footed Nady is your best OFer…. well, ’nuff said. Add the that, all 3 are gone in 2010. This is really an OF you want to see on the ‘rebuilding’ Yankees?
Does anyone else here see the Mets looking like the Yankees of post 2004? Over the last 3 years they have gotten: Pedro, the best pitcher since WWII, Santana, the best pitcher in MLB, Beltran, maybe the best CFer in the game when he was gotten, Delgato, a stud, Wagner, another stud, Alou, a one-time stud. SIX big name, expensive FAs. And what have they to show? 2 collapses and a strong 2nd place team with the highest payroll in the NL. And what is the future of the Mets? David Wright, Jose Reyes and John Maine.
I still say the Yankees should ditch 2009, maybe 2010, and build for the next dynasty starting in 2011. Hopefully, this will be built on a young pitching staff of Wang, Joba, Phil, IPK, Brackman, Betances, Melancon, Sanchez, Aceves, Bruney, Robertson, Wright and others. ARod, Cervelli, AJax, Montero and others. Throw in some well rounded FA’s like Holliday, Tex, Crawford, and others.
Our team has a lot of holes. We are not really in a position to compete in the AL East. Our last Dynasty was build on a foundation that came from the farm: Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Pettitte and Bernie. An under-the-radar trade for an average guy named Paul O’Neil. Once this young, talented, CHEAP foundation was built, selected trades and FAs put us into history.
Jeter, Mo, Pettitte and Posada are all old and in decline (except maybe Mo… but he IS 39). Hopefully, we can count on ARod for the foreseeable future.
We have a few pegs in place in Wang, Cano, Joba and hopefully Phil. Maybe Brett or Melky will surprise us. AJax and Montero look like the real deal. Maybe Cervelli Lots of talented arms a year and 2 and 3 away. We may have part of the foundation for the future.
But right now, spending huge money building on a shakey foundation is foolhardy. Look at the Sox. Prdro is gome. Manny is gone. Papi might be going. Yet there are a strong team. Youkilis, Pedroia, Masterson, Lowrie, Ellisbury, Papsmear, Lester, Buccholz, Beckett (gotten for Hanley). Even if none turn out to be stars, this is a foundation of young, talented, CHEAP players. The Manny’s and Ortis’s might put them over the top, but their (potential) Dynasty is in the kids.
I won’t even bother to call out TB by names. We can see where they’re going. Thank God they don’t have money, or they could dominate for a long time.
I say get Tex because he has future and is both an offensive and DEFENSIVE player. Look for Swisher like deals… where we buy low, and get more value then we give. Don’t trade and more Tabata’s. Get smart. Get lean and mean. Forget and the Burnetts and Lowes of this world. Too many problems, not enough future.
Posada, Jeter and Mo could hit a wall at anytime. We could get a good year or 2 out of them, but it’s a gamble. Don’t build a team that might win (although probably not) in 2009. Build a team for a decade.
Our future is our current youth, the farm, and a reasonable payroll so we CAN get the future FAs to put us over the top. You don’t build with expensive and overlong contracts of FAs. They are he icing on the cake. You build with kids.
I was a fan in 1965. I watched a team of Gods collapse. Mantle, Maris, Tresh, Whitey, Stottlemyre and a whole bunch of ‘qualtity’ guys. And it took us MORE THEN A DECADE to have a real team again.
Believe me guys, NOT winning in 2009 and 2010 is not near as bad as 1965 thru 1977. We need to stop throwing good money after bad.