All quiet again today
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 03, 2008 
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In the last 45 minutes I’ve called two agents, an assistant GM and a reporter friend in another city to find out what they’ve been hearing.
The answer: Not much in terms of the Yankees. If I had something more for you, I’d toss it out there. Kudos to Greg Genske, who is the agent for CC Sabathia. He’s managed to keep everything on the down low. I’m amazed that CC hasn’t spoken to somebody about his situation.
Meanwhile, don’t forget about the live video chat tomorrow at 1 p.m. You click on our Mogulus channel to participate by typing in questions.
If you go there now, the channel has a feature that will send you an e-mail reminder.
I’d expect it all to be quiet until next week at the winter meetings. Also, Dec 7 is the deadline for arbitration offers to be accepted. My guess is next Tuesday is when things start moving.
The San Francisco Baseball Giants are moving in on SS Edgar Renteria to replace Omar Vizquel. They’re serious about getting younger.
CC’s agent runs a tighter ship than fort knox.
nick,
how could the giants get older?
oh, and i didn’t say this earlier. Go Bears. The Axe is ours!
kd: did you go to the Big Game? It was great to see Tedford open up the playbook a bit. Much better than that awful trip down to the farm a year ago. I think Best will romp again this Saturday.
nick
We might be serious in getting younger as well. Replacing Missina with Lowe, Molina with Posada.
What else is new? I thought the off season was supposed to have a hot stove not a freezer. This is getting ridiculous. Outside of arbitration and rumors which were later not even true, this has been the most boring off season i have ever witnessed.
nick,
i was there. great game. it was super to see them play shut down defense and not allow a shoot-out.
best will make washington look silly.
i am get the feeling that cc wants to open up a bidding war. he said he wasn’t going to let this thing draw out, which turned out to be inaccurate. maybe he wants la to make an offer.
i wonder if this guy posts here?
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/bl.....mlb,126565
dave,
I mentioned the same thing a couple threads ago. It has to be the most boring i can remember. I just hope this wait for the first player to bite doesnt drag on till next month. Hell they might all end up in the unemployment line if they keep this up. If the Houston Comets can fold, any team could.
Saucy,
Does Penn State have a chance vs. USC? Do you agree in Oklahoma leap frogging Texas? Is there a year that has gone by without college football contriversy?
saucY,
This fool’s contention that nobody wants to play in New York is baseless. CC’s hesitance isn’t directed at the Yankees.He wants to be close to his family. Having kids on both coasts myself, I don’t blame him one bit.
The Yanks could get shut out, but it will be because they won’t bite on a 5 year contract for Burnett and don’t want to give Lowe $16mil per year at age 36.
For these reasons, I hope the Yankees still can work something out with Abreu. The replacement cost is stiff.
sos
of course (thank god it won’t be oregon state again, hopefully), not sure but leading toward no, and don’t think so…
No Penn state does not have a chance against SC. This game will not even be close
I think USC will be double-digit favorites vs. Penn St.
Provided they beat UCLA first, of course. (insert winky emoticon here)
“The Giants and Marlins have reportedly discussed swapping Jonathan Sanchez and Jorge Cantu.”
what a steal for the the Marlins if the deal does goes through.
Nick in SF
December 3rd, 2008 at 4:44 pm
The San Francisco Baseball Giants are moving in on SS Edgar Renteria to replace Omar Vizquel. They’re serious about getting younger.
———————————————————–
he Giants could sign Mays, McCovey, Cepeda and Marichal and still get younger.
Drive 4-5
Is Abreu worth re signing? Supposidly his defense was one of the worst at his possition this year. We all know the new right field wall would still be new in the end of the season. Not sure if you were thinking of inserting him at dh.
Don’t you miss George right about now?
This front-office crew is looking more and more hopeless. The Yankees have to realize that they will never catch Boston and Tampa by cutting corners, low-balling guys like Pettitte who played hurt, thumbing their noses at potential first round picks and deciding to “hold the line” when they are short on power arms and need to make a dramatic signing fast. If they don’t get Burnett, the price on everyone else is just going to keep going up as agents sense their desperation. Locking up Burnett would only strenghten their hand in future negotiations for either CC or Tex.
George would know this. But tight-fisted Hal seems to have put his foot down at exactly the wrong moment.
Long talking up Cano:
“You’re going to see a huge difference visually,” Long said. “You’ll see less movement, an explosive, compact swing, and you’ll probably see more home runs. I think his average will go way up, and I think his walks will go way up.”
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....Id=rss_nyy
Is this because of Long or is this because Cano and Larry Bowa both got Skype?
S.o.S.
I agree that he was a defensive liability last year. Did he lose more games with his glove than he helped win with his bat? I’m not convinced he did.
The Yanks have a huge hole in their lineup in front of A Rod and potentially behind him if no power threat emerges. If those holes arent filled,there will be no reason to pitch to A Rod. Losing Abreu or not filling the #3 hole with a comparable bat actually will impact 2 positions in the lineup.
i’m all for giving CC time to think and for his agent to throw out some feelers. but at what point does it stop being “CC giving it careful thought” and become “CC doesn’t really want to play for the Yankees?”
sometimes, a “no answer” really is a “no.”
kd,
If CC wanted to play in New York, he’d have accepted by now.
He has two offers right now that we know about and one pales in comparison to the other.
The Yankees made an offer that doesn’t allow a bidding war.
For all the BS he spun about resolving this quickly, he’s sure full of it.
longtimefan,
I agree.
I am not one for deadlines and such, but this is out of hand.
CC can equal Champion of Chumps
Drive 4-5,
Would you consider Dunn instead of Abreu? I would think he could protect Arod and has much more homerun potential. Granted he strikes out a ton. He makes up for it with taking some walks. I just see Abreu’s production dropping considerably. And if so, they wouldnt pitch to Arod anyways.
One more post about Pedroia (feel free to ignore it) –
I read a lot of comments on how Pedroia could’ve gotten more, that it wasn’t a great deal for him, etc. Here’s his quote from today:
“I understood all that stuff. I understood that if I went year-to-year I probably would have made more money. But I’m in a place that I love. My first thought was, ‘I play for the best team. Who wouldn’t want to play for the Boston Red Sox? We’re going to have a chance to win every year.’ … It fits.”
Good for him. I’m happy that there are still athletes out there whose primary concern is not money.
Nick in SF…….I’m going to the Rose Bowl with my UCLA alum wife and watch USC cover the 30 points……I’m a UCLA basketball fan since the days of Alcindor ( Kareem ) ..However when it comes to college football it’s UCS and the most beautiful cheerleaders in the land….Oh, seeing Stevie Nicks at the games is not to bad either……..Cal-Berkley looking good in hoops….I’ll be up there for the bb games …..Maybe by then we’ll know who’s in the Yanks rotation……I still say that CC & Tex are donning pinstripes next season
I’m not saying I necessarily feel this way, but do any of you ever fear that playing for the Yankees, or the idea of as much, has lost some of its luster in the eyes of current players?
S.o.S.
Personally, I dont think Dunn replaces Abreu. Bobby is a better hitter. Only 3 hitters have driven in 100 runs the last 6 years: A Rod, Albert Puljos and Bobby Abreu. His oHe aint exactly Swiss cheese.
I think it is a little obxoxious that CC’s agents arent even responding to the Yankees. A little acknowledgement of the biggest pitcher deal in history would be nice.
Well if C.C. doesnt sign with us, i already have the comeback. We didnt want him anyways. Being a Yankee your judged on playoff performance(ask Arod). We dont need playoff chokers on our team.
(again this is if we dont land him)
If we do. It will be he just needed a good team behind him and now he has it. Best pitcher ever!!
“Personally, I dont think Dunn replaces Abreu. Bobby is a better hitter. Only 3 hitters have driven in 100 runs the last 6 years: A Rod, Albert Puljos and Bobby Abreu. His oHe aint exactly Swiss cheese.”
I think that what Bobby does is extremely underrated. The Yankees are dreaming if they think that Nady (who is wicked hot in the looks department) will be an adequate replacement for him.
Stevie Nicks??? What year is it, still 1977??? Does she do her Sufi dance in the stands?
“I’m not saying I necessarily feel this way, but do any of you ever fear that playing for the Yankees, or the idea of as much, has lost some of its luster in the eyes of current players?”
Dude, when does money every lose it’s luster?
All kidding aside, I think that the Yankees are seen as a team who want to win it all every year and are willing to spend the cash to try and make that happen. I think that players know that it is very difficult to play in NY because of the demanding fans, owners and media. I think that some players want the challenge of NY and many do not. Hey, that’s their loss. I don’t care that we haven’t won in 8 years. The fact remains that we are the most successful sports franchise in the world with the best fans in the world and that is something that ain’t gonna change anytime soon.
Nick-
Good stuff!
Nick-
SF Giants also signed Howry, he’s only 35 years young.
PAT M,
I’ll be at the game this Saturday as well. Bad memories of the Rose Bowl for USC-UCLA matchups (I’m a USC alum)
i heard greg genske is not calling anyone because he actually bought an Ooma, but his damn cat keeps shedding fur all over it
Laura,
yes, of course i agree with those charming aspects of new york, but i think players are also starting to realize that they don’t have to go to NY to have the best chance to win anymore.
EDUB….That debacle cast SC the National Title that year, just as Stanford last season and then they well asleep at the wheel again this season……Nick In SF…..Stevei looks great by the way…..Always wished to someday hear her sing in the shower……..Bella Dona…..Love To You Stevie……
Check that…Fell asleep at the wheel…Just cannot type…..
Laura,
The yanks are clearly trying to cut payroll. If we dont get Tex and end up with a 180 million dollar payroll, it is a clear cut sign that the yanks were not willing to spend all the money at their disposal to win it all this year. Tex would clearly help us – we have heard cash’s preaching of getting younger and more defensively oriented 1000 times and Tex would do both. We have the money with the new stadium opening, ticket prices going up and every game being sold out next season. Frankly, despite the economic climate, there is no reason we cant only cut payroll by ten million next season – it is still a step in the right direction for the FO. Cutting payroll by thirty million hurts our chances to win and i dont want to hear a word about roster flexibility. That is just something GMs say when they are being cheap.
Brandon will love this, there are rumors of a Cantu for Jonathan Sanchez swap. That would be a great deal for Florida.
“Brandon will love this, there are rumors of a Cantu for Jonathan Sanchez swap. That would be a great deal for Florida.”
that’s a steal for the Marlins.
All the “CC doesnt wanna be here” crowd needs to analyze the situation before hopping off the ledge. I at one point before Thanksgiving thought CC had snubbed us and was 100% not coming here. Lets examine the facts about CC’s potential suitors:
LA Angels- Extremely talented team with a lot of quality young pitching in the rotation as well as in the bullpen. They have only one glaring hole, a 3 hitter to hit in front of Vlad Guerrero. For those of you who missed Pete’s post last night, Tex is STILL the Angels number 1 priority they need him and barring a ridiculous Red Sox bid they will be the highest bidder. We all know with Boras clients that the highest bidder WILL get the player.
LA Dodgers- Team with some money coming off the books but with tight pockets. They have already been scared away from the Manny Ramirez negotiations because they didn’t want to commit 20 million+ per year to Manny. If they cannot financially handle a 2 year 50 million dollar deal for Manny how are they going to afford a year 9 figure deal for CC?
SF Giants- Earlier in the hot-stove they were thought to be a dark-horse for CC. However talks of their involvement were speculation as they are instead focusing on their inept offense. It is also believed that they will not give out another obscene contract to a pitcher following the Zito debacle. They also want money on the books in 2011 and beyond so they can sign young starters Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain to long term deals. They are long-shots to even bid on CC.
Milwaukee Brewers- Although it is thought they might come up from their initial 5 year 100 million dollar offer, they are still not on the West Coast where CC prefers to pitch. Why exactly would CC take 40 million less when he will still not be pitching on the WC?
None of those teams frightens me unless Tex snubs the Halos then we might have to go to war with Arte Moreno’s checkbook.
Don’t know whether this was posted already, but Gene Michael on MLB Home Plate (XM radio) said the Yankees FO believes there is “collusion” going on between several of the players and agents this post season. He also said that the biggest reason for the NYYs not making the post season was the absence of Posada.
The show today offered some valuable insights. Albeit that this is third hand, and the rumor alert must be set on high, the “word” is that CC is asking the LAAs for an offer because the experience of RJ in Yew York is a real concern for him. The point was that RJ won 34 games for the Yankees in 2 seasons and was still roasted by the media and fans because of the post season experience.
According to this source (couldn’t write it down while driving), the LAAs told the CC people that their #1 priority is Tex and that only after that situation settles out will they be able to consider a real offer to CC.
This is contrary to the belief that CC is the first ‘domino’ holding all the other deals up. The Yankees have offers out to all of the big 3 pitching prospects, but have to consider going to Plan B, C or whatever if CC is determined to wait for Tex.
Understand you must consider the source, but it fits the ‘facts on the ground.’
I don’t know what Pete means, today is the day things are perculating. Atlanta is first to act after missing out on Peavy potentially getting Vasquez and Burnett, Renteria deal done.
It’s time for CC’s people to set a deadline for offers, say Dec 10th, then decide and negotiate until right before Christmas.
RJ was a malcontent from day one. CC has a fun personally and eat up playing for team that has A Rod and Jeter behind him and Mariano after him, last chance for him to do that. CC will love NY. I think cameramen throughout the city will be safe from being pushed down on day one ala RJ. No comparison between the two.
RE: Al and BackBench, above –
CC is probably blown away by the fact that, so far, none of the WC teams have offered him a deal. I would think his agent, whose own commission is riding on this, is telling him that the economy is at play, and this might be it. NY or Milwaukee.
The coming Winter Meetings will be very interesting, and I think something or somebody will break. Then, there will be a lot of action, as a reaction to a potentially collapsing market. Kind of like musical chairs.
So sick of the kids whining about wanting George back, so we can “do something” Guess they were not around for most of the 1980s when doing something included signing Pascuel Perez, Dave LaPoint, Andy Hawkins, the Dave Winfield for Ed Whitson trade, the Jay Bhuner for Ken Phelps trade, the endless fights with Billy Martin, etc. We are awful in the 1980s because of Big George, not in spite of him. Free agents passed up NYC all the time (Mark Langston, Mark Davis come to mind)in the “good, ole days” and the ones that came here were 2nd rate (Scott Sanderson anybody) We were able to rebound in the late 1990s b/c George was banned for a few years and Gene Michael was able to turn around the ship. PLEASE STOP ENGAGING IN REVISONIST HISTORY. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Jeff- I agree. The RJ/CC comparisons are way off. CC is a fun loving guy who cares about the game and his family. RJ cared about his stats and reputation. Just look at the 2 guys, CC a hefty young man with a smile on his face and intensity on the mound, RJ looked like a geriatric flamingo on the mound who never looked like he was having fun.
You’ve come a long way Al. It’s inspiring.
To CC, or not to CC. That is the question.
I’m sort of in a state of indifference at this point. Or possibly it’s just denial.
Didn’t Greg Maddux pass on the Yanks too as a FA years ago.
EdWhitson-
yeah, that’s all true.
but it was easier to get a ticket in the 80s.
Bronx Jeers-
Let’s hope CC wants to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
Al and Jeff,
I agree, CC is not RJ, but there are still valid concerns about the media in NY. Just look at ARod. I know many people blame ARod, not the media, but I don’t think that’s fair. The media made a 3-day story about him sunbathing in Central Park. So, even totally innocuous things he did became an excuse for the media to pounce.
I don’t think CC would have that problem. I think ARod is fairly unique as a media target. I also think that as long as ARod is around to be a punching bag for the press, everyone else on the team gets a free pass.
But I can see where CC might be concerned about his treatment in NY, if 2 MVPs in four years isn’t enough to satisfy the press and some fans in ARod’s case.
Buddy, Maddux did by-pass us for the Braves. We got Jimmy Key instead.
Only 10 weeks until the start of spring training.
72 days.
That’s not a lot of time, CC.
EdWhitson
December 3rd, 2008 at 6:43 pm
So sick of the kids whining about wanting George back, so we can “do something” Guess they were not around for most of the 1980s when doing something included signing Pascuel Perez, Dave LaPoint, Andy Hawkins, the Dave Winfield for Ed Whitson trade, the Jay Bhuner for Ken Phelps trade, the endless fights with Billy Martin, etc. We are awful in the 1980s because of Big George, not in spite of him. Free agents passed up NYC all the time (Mark Langston, Mark Davis come to mind)in the “good, ole days” and the ones that came here were 2nd rate (Scott Sanderson anybody) We were able to rebound in the late 1990s b/c George was banned for a few years and Gene Michael was able to turn around the ship. PLEASE STOP ENGAGING IN REVISONIST HISTORY. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
———————————————————–
Winfield was traded to the angels for Mike Witt, not Whitson.
I’m starting to feel at this point if CC wanted to be a Yankee, he’d be a Yankee.
If he ends up here because of strictly the money, as much as we need him, it’s a bad move.
Our best hope for him is he’s clearly waiting for the big offers from the west coast teams and he’s doing that to just raise the Yankee offer up and get more money than what the Yanks have offered from the Yanks in the end.
Outside of that, he doesn’t want to play here.
It bugs me that he’s making us wait to give an answer, but it doesn’t bug me as much as Cashman not willing to go 5 years on AJ.
If that’s his reason for passing, then buckle up Yankee fans because our GM is going to run this team smack into 3rd place again and again.
We have 2 starting pitchers, one who was hurt all last season and one who has an iffy shoulder and we’re going to balk at a power arm who threw 200 innings plus for a 5th year?
If you win a championship with AJ in the next 3 years, the 5th year pays for itself.
This kind of “Strategy” irks me since it feels like the Yankees are getting cheap and becoming risk averse.
CB posted a great post earlier about how guys who have gone through TJ surgery rarely go through it again. AJ has already gone through it, recovered, has all his stuff and is healthy. He’s as good a risk as there is in this market.
If we end up signing a Derek Lowe/Paul Byrd type for this rotation because they doesn’t require a long term contract, it’s the death rattle people.
Derek Lowe will get POUNDED in the AL east just like he used to, not to mention he’s publicly called out for his own return to Boston.
Any Yankee fan who wants that in the rotation should get their head checked.
If CC doesn’t want the money and we let AJ walk because Atlanta, who knows something about starting pitching, is willing to go 5 years for him, we’re in bad shape. End of story.
And passing on Mark Davis was one of the better moves.
GreenBeret7,
Yes, you are right, Winfield for Witt, which was terrible. The Jack Clark for Stanley Jefferson, Lance McCullers, and Jimmy Jones trade was horrible. As was Rickey for Erick Plunk, Greg Cadaret, and Luis Polonia. We did not pass on Mark Davis, he passed on us. You are right, that worked out well, but out of dumb luck, not our superior insight. Those were trying times.
Not one person on this list has a clue as to what offers Brian Cashman has or has not made to any free agent — albeit there is the report of the 140 mil offer to CC. The rest is pure speculation, and even that is an educated guess.
No doubt, Cashman has “plan A”, and “plan B”, and a whole bunch of contingencies just in case something goes wrong, or something unexpected opportunity arises.
He’s got a big bank account, a reasonable number of prospects to trade, and has enough power in the organization to do what he needs to do.
The way in which people on this list speak as though they had first-hand knowledge of what Cash has done (or not) with certain free agents is just plain nonsense.
Haha! Luis Polonia, who had 3 tours of duty with Yanks & had sex with an 14 year old girl in Milwaukee.
“Didn’t Greg Maddux pass on the Yanks too as a FA years ago.”
Yes he did, passsed on a better monetary offer, so on his off days he could play golf on the numerous Atlanta courses!!
I really hope the rumors about CC calling up the Angels and pleading for them to get involved are not true. A player who is avoiding the Yankees like the plague is probably not a good fit. Then again its hard to separate rumors from fact in these times.
LOL! stachatory rape is funny!
Al, I don’t think it’s necessarily CC desperately wanting to NOT be in NY. I think it likely that he really thought he would have his choice of WC teams, near home, at a great salary – sort of like have his cake and eat it too (haha).
It is probably very disappointing to him and his family that things are not going according to his hopes and plans. Even if he is reaching out to the Angels, it may just be trying to make something happen to match his fantasy, rather than being vehemently anti-NY.
If that is the case, then he can always go back to Milwaukee. And if he does, the New York Yankees will survive.
Al from BK-
ya got any links on the angel rumors?
where digya here this?
Buddy Biancalana-
don’t be so hard on Luis, she was 14 going on 15.
Really am surprised that the Braves would be willing to give Burnett 5 years and 75-80 million, because they don’t draw enormous crowds, they were burnt by oft-injured Mike Hampton, and they’re squabbling over money with Smoltz.
Hearing rimors that Delmon Young might be on trading block. Are we interested in him? Could he play a decent CF?
Competition in the AL is fading fast. White Sox looking to future, Toronto already lost Marcum and will likely lose Burnett. Besides the Red Sox, Angels and Yankees in the AL what other AL teams now will be willing to spend big money for the elite FAs?
If we have the chance to get Teixeira, instead of him going to Boston, are we willing to lower our free agent starting pitching expectations, and go for some cheaper alternatives?
Thoughts?
“He’s as good a risk as there is in this market. ”
Not sure if you were still referring to my earlier post but that was not the point I was trying to make.
I was simply saying that Burnett is at lower risk for a catastrophic arm injury compared to Sheets because AJ has already has his elbow repaired.
However, Burnett is still a major injury risk given the possibility of other non-elbow related injuries of which he’s had numerous.
Of particular concern with Burnett is his shoulder. This is true of Sheets as well.
Both Sabathia and Lowe are much better overall injury risks than Burnett. In fact they are much, much better risks than Burnett.
I personally would not sign Burnett for a five year deal.
AJ is still a thrower more than a pitcher. He had the 5th highest average fastball velocity in baseball last year. He’s basically a two pitch pitcher – fastball and curve with his change up more as a show pitch.
Pitchers who rely exclusively on velocity age very badly. Last year AJ’s average fastball velocity was 94.3 mph. He was one of 2 or 3 pitchers who threw 900 pitches at greater than 95 mph.
He’s completely dependent on his velocity to get outs. As he ages and loses even say 2 mph on his fastball he’ll get much more hittable.
I’d be extremely leery of going past the age of 35 with Burnett. That would be a three year deal. If you want to say well you need to add another year to get him signed even if you know that year will be a waste – that would be year 4.
A 5 year deal is just not a good idea with Burnett for that money.
He’s unlikely to throw 200 innings consistently due to the recurrent injuries he has and is prone to collapsing as an effective pitcher should his velocity decrease even a little.
On a 4 year deal with him you’re likely already writing off one year as a waste.
On a 5 year deal I think you’d be at high risk for needing to write off 2 years as a waste.
“If that is the case, then he can always go back to Milwaukee. And if he does, the New York Yankees will survive.”
0 chance he goes to Milwaukee. He will eventually warm up to the Yanks ala Mussina/Cone.
“Al from BK-
ya got any links on the angel rumors?
where digya here this?”
Phil- It was on here Pete posted it last night at some point. Apparently the Angels GM has come out and said Tex is their guy and they will go to great lengths to keep him.
The **Yankees**, Rays, Red Sox, and Phillies are pursuing free agent outfielder **Rocco Baldelli**. Baldelli, 26, could serve the Yankees as a right-handed hitting alternative to Hideki Matsui in the DH spot, and also play outfield against certain left-handed pitchers …
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....038;ATT=49
Baldelli platooning with Matsui? Cashman sure have some interesting plans.
Al, Jeff…
“I really hope the rumors about CC calling up the Angels and pleading for them to get involved are not true.”
That is all they are as far as I’m concerned, but Rob Dibble (?) on XM seemed to put a lot of faith in them. What I posted above was simply what was said on the programs, not “firsthand knowledge” by any means. But if Pete can get the transcript from the Michael interview, you will see he specifically said the NYY FO suspected there was collusion going on by some of the agents and players.
And while we as Yankee fans may see the RJ situation one way, it is impossible to say for certain how others see it. People’s perceptions are their own realities.
Dibble was particularly sensitive to how A-Rod has been treated in NY, and said specifically that that has to weigh on CC’s mind. He was the one who also stated that the NYYs have offers out to Lowe and AJ. (Who is Dibble, anyway).
One possibility of this f-cri is some teams with difficulties will b pushed out of the league like w the 95 strike. It’s also possible, and hopeful, that certain large and stable teams (ehem) will just start to go nuts (like the 95 strike)… Hello CC,manny,tex,burnett,peavy,chipper jones…
Spin it any way you wish. The fact is 2 teams have tendered offers for C.C. and he has responded to neither.
It is clear that the teams he wishes to play for do not want to bid, yet still he holds out. It is also clear that he does not have a desire to play for the Yankees. He may well play here but his heart will be elsewhere, leaves you feeling kind of nauseated.
“If we have the chance to get Teixeira, instead of him going to Boston, are we willing to lower our free agent starting pitching expectations, and go for some cheaper alternatives?
Thoughts?”
Trader- I think we should only go all in for Tex if CC snubs us. However it seems like the Angels need Tex and we need CC.
“I really hope the rumors about CC calling up the Angels and pleading for them to get involved are not true. A player who is avoiding the Yankees like the plague is probably not a good fit. Then again its hard to separate rumors from fact in these times.”
Doubt this rumor. More likely that his agent called the Angels to gauge their interest.
Few years ago before Beltran was getting ready to sign with the Mets for some 119 million, Boras called the Yanks and said his client would be willing to play for them for 100 million. Wonder what ramifications signing Beltran would have meant for future Yankee signings??
Back Bench-
Must be a young-en! Dibble was a flame-throwing [98-100 mph] closer for the Reds.
If CC’s arm lands in the Bronx, the heart will follow.
Al-
“I think we should only go all in for Tex if CC snubs us. However it seems like the Angels need Tex and we need CC.”
Angels want Tex, but it sounds like all things being equal, he wants to play closer to home [Baltimore}.
“Dibble was particularly sensitive to how A-Rod has been treated in NY, and said specifically that that has to weigh on CC’s mind. He was the one who also stated that the NYYs have offers out to Lowe and AJ. (Who is Dibble, anyway).”
CC should rest assured no one can be treated as badly as A-Rod. RJ was a mean old man past his prime and out of gas. If this is truly weighing on CC’s mind then he might not be cut out for NY.
Anyone know the price/availability of tickets to games in Dominican winter league? Have a chance to drop in and might try to see some of these kids play.
“Al-
“I think we should only go all in for Tex if CC snubs us. However it seems like the Angels need Tex and we need CC.”
Angels want Tex, but it sounds like all things being equal, he wants to play closer to home [Baltimore}.”
I guarantee you if the money is close and its the Yankees or last place Baltimore hes wearing pinstripes. Also his hero growing up was none other than Donnie baseball.
Al from BK-
Pete’s post and linked story doesn’t say anything about CC calling up the Angels.
Dominican winter league?
I think the dollar is strong down in Dominica, no problem.
Al-
Totally agree, just mentioning that Teixeira from Baltimore.
The Yankees could do the same deal the Blue Jays did for Burnett’s wife-9 round trip limo rides between Toronto and Baltimore. Guess she didn’t want to fly!!
Just read in baseball weekly that Kennedy has worked on a third pitch-curveball to go along with his changeup and “fastball.” Hopes to crack the rotation even if we sign free agent starters! He might just do that, with another team if we have to trade for a starter!!
Nobody wanted to make solid offers until finding out about arbitration. Two picks is a big deal for most teams to give up in an era where many of the best teams have exceptional players that can contribute very quickly for cheap. Most teams will not want to give that up, so the Yankees case just got stronger. As for CC, it made no sense to say or do anything prior to arbitration day. Now it is time to find out who is still interested, eventually, no one will pay what the Yankees will pay, he’ll come around, just keep patient.
CB,
I understood your were comparing AJ to Sheets in the other thread. I should have distinguished that. My point was I felt AJ was a better risk to me than a guy like Sheets and about the same risk compared the rest of the free agent pitchers underneath him and CC.
I realize Lowe is less of a health risk but I don’t think Lowe for 4 years (which is what I think the market will be for him) is a better deal than AJ for 5 who is younger with better stuff.
AJ might be a thrower, but he throws pretty darned good and can beat high powered offenses by himself when he’s on his game. Not to mention with the depth of the Yankee pen and the way Girardi used it, his innings could in theory go down and we can keep his workload manageable.
“Al from BK-
Pete’s post and linked story doesn’t say anything about CC calling up the Angels.”
Phil- Sorry about that I was referring to the Angels going after Tex over CC. Thats story about CC calling up the Angels is courtesy of Back Bench he apparently heard it on XM radio.
“Dibble was particularly sensitive to how A-Rod has been treated in NY”
Kim Jones said earlier this year that she’s had visiting players ask her if the NY fans are kidding or crazy booing A-Rod. Maybe it does make players balance the money with the peace of mind aspect of coming to NY.
“Al-
Totally agree, just mentioning that Teixeira from Baltimore.
The Yankees could do the same deal the Blue Jays did for Burnett’s wife-9 round trip limo rides between Toronto and Baltimore. Guess she didn’t want to fly!!”
The more I consider giving Burnett 5 years the less I like the idea. I say we should give Sheets a 2 year deal and pray for lightening in a bottle. Also Heyman said yesterday w/Francessa that we are very interested in Lowe over AJ and we may get into a bidding battle with the Sux.
Adam Dunn in Left next year! 40 HR’s with a 386 obp hitting behind Alex is just what this lineup needs. Put Damon in CF have Gardner or Melky as a bench player/defensive replacement. Bobby had 36 HR’s the past 2 years, Dunn hit 40 last year. Dunn leads the mlb in walks since 2006 with 335. For 12-14 a year there is truly no reason not to sign him. 29 year old dead pull hitting lefty with massive power aiming for the short porch. A potential game changer with every at bat. Not every year you can get a Top 20 OPS guy for your team and not lose draft picks for it.
A Rod is different. He was cheered outstandingly in 2007, he was just amazing. This year he wasn’t as good with RISP, especially as compared to 07. Fans boo out of frustration but they cheer like crazy when players play well. We who watched regularly know that A Rod had the emptiest 35 HR, 100 RBI year.
Bottom line is, Yankee fans would never boo CC, we’re not lowbrow like the Mets fans booing Santana opening day.
Yanks interested in Rocco Baldelli!
Add the **Yankees** to the list of teams interested in free-agent outfielder Rocco Baldelli. The Rays, Red Sox and Phillies also are pursuing Baldelli, who came back from a rare neuromuscular disease with the Rays last season. **Baldelli, 26, could serve the Yankees as a right-handed hitting alternative to Hideki Matsui in the DH spot, and also play outfield against certain left-handed pitchers** …
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....038;ATT=49
—————–
Baldelli platooning with Matsui and possibly Gardner? At least some people’s wishes have been answered. Cashman sure have some interesting plans. I hope Baldelli does sign with the Yanks.
No to Lowe, for what Boras will want. Let him go to the Red Sox, along with Byrd, whose likely to accept arbitration!
Leary of Sheets and his supposedly “muscle injury” near his pitching elbow. Plus, read the interesting article about his bad mechanics, putting strain on his arm.
Would be more inclined to “capture lightning in a bottle” with a one year incentive deal with Brad Penny.
Kevin Kennedy today on XM radio, in response to a queston as to how the Yankees could let Abreu go, said it’s because of Manny Ramirez. He did not reference any sources but simply stated it was his opinion and, in effect, Manny to the Yankees is a no-brainer. FWIW, and probably not much on this board.
We can’t possibly know what CC is thinking now.
When he said, “I want this done by Thanksgiving”, surely he thought he’d get more than an offer from an NL Central team and an AL East team.
He doesn’t have much to choose from. It’s either bologna or prime rib, when he really feels like eating a fish taco.
Coach-
Dunn would not cost the Yankees any draft picks. Could live with his 180 strikeouts, but LF in Yankee stadium! In fact his best position is no fielding position-DH, where we are already stocked, unless someone takes Matsui off our hands.
Let’s say Matsui approves a deal to Mariners and we get Seattle’s problem in Erik Bedard. Interesting possibility to add a lefty to the rotation.
Fine. Let’s sign CC, Pettitte, Manny and Baldelli. Let Swisher/Miranda platoon at 1B. We’ll have to stash Manny in right, unless we get rid of Matsui.
This would not be terrible by any means.
Al,
Getting into a bidding war with the Sox over Derek Lowe is the most retarded thing I’ve heard yet this offseason. :barf:
Coach- I like Dunn and with the terrible market economy we could probably get him for 3-4 year deal at 14-15 per. He strikes out a ton but well over 100 walks and he would hit 50 HR’s in YS. Worth considering at least.
“Kevin Kennedy today on XM radio, in response to a queston as to how the Yankees could let Abreu go, said it’s because of Manny Ramirez. He did not reference any sources but simply stated it was his opinion and, in effect, Manny to the Yankees is a no-brainer. FWIW, and probably not much on this board.”
I think Manny would be the perfect fit in the line-up. However his antics up in Boston have soured most on him for now. A-Rod batting with Manny looming on deck would be the scariest sight in baseball. Also the Sox would be so mad at this move it would be worth it just for the laughs.
Coach,
Damon is done as an every day center fielder.
“Al,
Getting into a bidding war with the Sox over Derek Lowe is the most retarded thing I’ve heard yet this offseason. :barf:”
Hey not my words that was all Heyman.
I think Baldelli is a good player but that disease he has limits him to 300 at bats a year and he will NEVER be a full time player. Its not his will or determination he just can’t physically play every game.
“We can’t possibly know what CC is thinking now.”
“He doesn’t have much to choose from. It’s either bologna or prime rib, when he really feels like eating a fish taco.”
For 100 million I’ll be quite happy with bologna!! Are the best fish tacos in San francisco or LA??
Now I’m hungry-till tomorrow.
“Getting into a bidding war with the Sox over Derek Lowe is the most retarded thing I’ve heard yet this offseason”
Not if the Sox ‘win’ the war.
*a fearless prediction*
Okay, going out on a limb with this but telling you that I have a gut feeling (yeah you know how it is with me and those gut feelings) that we are going to be getting a huge signing any minute. Actually I would have thought by the end of the day – that’s what I was thinking this morning – but maybe it’s in terms of a day or two as opposed to an hour or two. Going out on more of a limb, I am going to say that the signing will be Sabatthia. Hey if I’m wrong at least we can’t say that I’m afraid to put it out there!
GO YANKEES!!!
To ward this one off at the pass, no I never predicted Moose would be back, nor did I ever say I had a gut feeling he would. I said that I hoped like hell that it would and wouldn’t believe he was retiring until he himself announced it.
G love,
Burnett for five years is a catastrophe waiting to happen. 10 injuries in 10 years and most of them after the TJ surgery so im not buying the whole after TJ surgery pitchers are fine excuse. Sheets has better stuff than burnett, he has pitched more innings than burnett in less years and he would probably except a contract that is three years shorter than burnett. if Burnett fails, either because of injury or ineffectiveness (there have been years where he was bad and not injured) we are throwing around 75 million down the drain. If sheets fails because of injury (he is never been ineffective when healthy) then we are throwing 25 million down the drain. Both are huge risks but i would take a risky two year contract over a risky five year contract any day of the week.
Al,
I wasn’t shooting the messenger.
Jeff NJ
No more empty than anyone elses poor year and poor numbers but the money is the excuse fans use to justify booing him.
The money is what attracts players to NY and the money is what gets them booed. Sounds like a dilemma only the fans can solve.
And the best fish tacos are in San Diego.
Al from BK – my point is not that CC will go somewhere else. my point is that his lack of even an indication of interest in the Yankees is a sign that he doesn’t really want to play here.
And lowe for four years is a joke – id almost rather have pavano back because he would likely be more useful.
Al,
I’m sure Cashman is aware of that, probably it could be a low risk, high reward acquistion.
“That is all they are as far as I’m concerned, but Rob Dibble (?) on XM seemed to put a lot of faith in them.”
Regarding these supposed rumors Dibble was talking about on CC and the Angels.
Look at it this way –
Greg Genske CC’ agent has done a phenomenal job of locking down shop. There have been absolutely no leaks coming out of their camp. None.
No major source has had even a whiff of a rumor regarding what is going on with CC.
The only thing that writer and media people have been left to do is to speculate. And most of that speculation has been limited to endlessly going on and on about geography – as if that’s the only thing that matters to anyone in a job search.
So given how tightly controlled CC camp has been – a directive for no leaks that may have come directly from CC himself given that none of his “friends” are even leaking rumors – what are the chances that Rob Dibble of all people has some reliable source?
Why in the world would someone close to CC chose Rob Dibble of all people to share any meaningful information with?
If anyone would have something on CC and the Angels it would likely be a guy with good LA sources like Ken Rosenthal.
It’s a slow off season. Dibble needs to fill time.
Let’s not start psychoanalyzing CC and deciding that he somehow hates NY just based on Rob Dibbling trying to kill dead time on the radio while the hot stove continues to burn real cold.
I’m the type of fan that is in favor of building up the farm system and giving young players a chance. However, CC is too good to pass on. He is the “BIG DADDY!” The Yanks need him and Burnett and Lowe won’t make a decision until they see how much Sabathia gets.
yea i said it, i may not have meant it but i said it
West, I agree, Manny to the Yankees would be outstanding. Manny always wanted to play here although his non talking to the media will not play here. No such issue exists for CC, he’ll eat up (pun intended) everything to do with being a Yankee in New York.
Hey maybe he can become a billionaire prior to his buddy Lebron. They could have mansions next store to each other, in both Manhattan and Westchester.
We need to stay away from Erik Bedard. He has a toxic attitude, and has injury problems. No thanks.
There’s a reason Seattle wants to get rid of him one year after trading a nice package for him.
Manny has only two possible destinations, LA or the Bronx. Manny knows it, Boras knows it, and Cashman and the Steinees certainly do. Right now it’s a chess game as to how long the Yankees hold back and only filter out through unnamed sources that “they may be interested”, “could be interested”, “not now, maybe later” etc.
Of course, this view will be shot in the head if Boras accepts arbitration; Manny will be most unhappy and we all know what that could mean.
Manny protecting A-Rod!!! Absolutely awesome.
“Al,
I’m sure Cashman is aware of that, probably it could be a low risk, high reward acquistion.”
I’ve always liked Baldelli but he is a platoon guy at best not to be heavily depended on.
pat,
Your correct – booing a man that has been here for four years and won two mvps and had the best year of his career in one of those seasons would make some free agents not want to come here. It is just plain dumb because it is hurting the yankees and yankee fans are the only ones that do it. Why would a fan want to hurt their own team? Is it THAT much fun to boo arod? When i heard someone boo him, I turn around to the fan and ask them how many players have one two mvps in the last four seasons? If CC doesnt come here because of the pressure and constant unwarranted criticism in NY only the fans and media are to blame. But he only has one other offer on the table for 40 mil less than ours and no other team seems very close to getting in the action so whether or not he wants to come here, he may not really have much of a choice. Honestly though, he should want to come here. The fans and media shouldnt make it soo uncomfortable for players that free agents would rather sign for less money on a non-competitive team than play with one of the most well respected and winningest franchise in sports.
Jeff NJ
December 3rd, 2008 at 8:03 pm
A Rod is different. He was cheered outstandingly in 2007, he was just amazing. This year he wasn’t as good with RISP, especially as compared to 07. Fans boo out of frustration but they cheer like crazy when players play well. We who watched regularly know that A Rod had the emptiest 35 HR, 100 RBI year.
Bottom line is, Yankee fans would never boo CC, we’re not lowbrow like the Mets fans booing Santana opening day.
————————————————————
BS. Yankee fans have been booing Rodriguez since the day he got to NY. Mainly because they were afraid he’s steal Jeter’s light. I doubt that Rodriguez cares about Jeter’s “light”. Yankee fans can be as petty and “lowbrow” as any fans in baseball. They spent ten years tring toboo Mickey Mantle out oftown because he had the gall to replace DiMaggio. They finally did boo Roger Maris out of town for being as good as Mantle was at hitting home runs.
Anyone else watching Yankeeography 1998 on now. Now that was a team.
Baldelli probably would prefer to go home to Boston. NY is an unlikely destination.
Ariel,
the giants and dodgers could get in the mix depending on what other free agents do. And Im sure there is another team or two out there that is thinking about manny right now. I dont think the yanks will ever sign him because he would clash with personalities in the clubhouse – particularly, id be worried about him and girardi getting along because i dont see a whole lot of respect going on in that relationship. Also, manny and arod and manny and posada seem a bit iffy. Not to mention, he will prolly cost us much for one year as Tex who is younger and can actually play defense. Signing manny would be making the team older, less athletic and not as good defensively. He would have to share DHing duties with matsui and I dont even know if he is capable of playing left in yankee stadium. Yes, arod batting third and manny batting fourth would be absolutely ridiculous but it doesnt seem all that feasible given all of the other nuances that have to be considered.
“my point is that his lack of even an indication of interest in the Yankees is a sign that he doesn’t really want to play here.”
Hmmm. Haven’t been reading posts nor following the sports news for a while. If this is true about CC, perhaps I went out on too far of a limb predicting he’d be signing with the Yanks. So much for gut feelings!
Jeff NJ – I don’t get to watch Yankeeographies. I’m thinking that I am going to put the Yankeeography Megaset on my list for santa.
If CC is stalling the Yanks waiting for the Angels to get involved, the Yanks need to drive up the price on Tex so there’s less left for CC in LA.
“If CC is stalling the Yanks waiting for the Angels to get involved, the Yanks need to drive up the price on Tex so there’s less left for CC in LA.”
0% chance the angels get CC and Tex.
In his early years The Mick was booed a lot. Not only because he was replacing Joe D, but because he wasn’t living up to the hype as “The Phenom” who could be the greatest ever. You had to watch the Mick in person to fully appreciate the magnitude of his raw ability. No one to this day, IMO, has had the blend of power and speed that Mickey was blessed with. As a diehard Yankee fan I consider myself blessed to have grown up in the NY area in the 50′s and watched the Mick enthrall the City, culminating in 1956, with the greatest year ever. Nothing has ever challenged that experience. Were Mick not to have been saddled with osteomyeletis and befriended by Billy Martin (I don’t know which had the greater deleterious effect) his career accomplishments would have been beyond belief.
But he tried, like A-Rod, too hard, and did strikeout alot, quite often in the clutch. Were this to be 1951, “all over again”, the Mick would be treated extremely harshly by the majority of this board.
I dont see anything special enough from Burnett’s numbers to warrant a five year contract. Last year which was suposedly one of his best so far Burnett has almost as many hits per Inning pitched 211 in 221 IP with 86 walks good for a 1.34 whip.
Sure, he won 18 games but he had an era over 4. This off season is supposed to be one in which salaries are dropping. Petitte who put up only slightly worse stats last year than Burnett due to his traumatic decline the second half wasnt worth a one year 16 million deal. How is it that Burnett who is not even close to as reliable as pettitte and had worse stats by the all star break is worth 5 years? There is a very simple answer – he is NOT!
No matter how much i look at burnett and lowe I cant see any reason why they are considered significantly better than anyone else in the free agent class. Burnett is never healthy and Lowe is pretty old and niether have put up stats that are particularly good in years.
In 10 years, Burnett has pitched 200 innings 3 times. About how many times do people think he will pitch 200 innings in a five year contract? one or twice tops. BY the way Burnetts era plus last year which is a very reliable stat to overall performance was 105 last season. You would think with the yanks refusal to give Pettitte one year that he would be far below Burnett like not even in the same stratosphere. Pettitte’s era plus was 98 – a mere 7 points lower. Ben sheets era plus was 139 and he will probably take a two year deal.
Ariel- I agree 100%. As a young fan I was not around to see the Mick play in person. However the literature I have on him makes me appreciate the greatness of the man, ans as you said he could have been greater if not for the injuries and distractions.
Who exactly coined the phrase the big three because they need their heads checked and dont know a whole lot about the actual three players involved?
Ariel; My Dad’s favorite player was “the Mick”, I wish I could have seen him play.
As much as I don’t buy this CC to the Giants gig, I also agree with Jayson Stark that if CC was going to sign with the Yankees, it would have gotten done by now, especially with only one other offer on the table.
Now, being as we’re a little under a week away from the Winter Meetings, its probably safe to assume that Genske is going to meet with the Dodgers, Giants, Angels, Sox, Yankees, and maybe even the Fresno State Bulldogs just to really round out that California thing…oh, and maybe Seattle and Mickey Mouse as well.
Maybe that’s why CC loves Cali: Mickey Mouse…and Funnel Cakes at Disneyland…any takers?
I am not enthralled with Burnett (> 3 years) or Lowe at all. Sure Lowe can rack up innings but with NY defense and the hammers in AL East, Lowe will battle to keep an ERA under 5.00. What good is that?
Bottom line; Burnett and especially Lowe, are poor plan Bs if the Yanks do not land CC. I should say if CC opts to not choose NY. Remember in the beginning Cash said they were going to show a lot of love during FA and if they get some love in return, there will be a deal.
It takes two to tango.
I started rooting for the Yanks in the 1964 World Series – I know, great timing. I was just shy of ten years old.
I never saw Mickey Mantle in his prime.
Still, I remember him as being The Man. I envy those who saw him play in his prime. Especially in his Triple Crown year, 1956.
I imagine that years from now, I will tell my stepson’s children that I used to go to Yankee Stadium, THE Stadium, and watch Derek Jeter, ARod, and Mariano play ball. And win championships.
BS. Yankee fans have been booing Rodriguez since the day he got to NY. Mainly because they were afraid he’s steal Jeter’s light. I doubt that Rodriguez cares about Jeter’s “light”. Yankee fans can be as petty and “lowbrow” as any fans in baseball. They spent ten years tring toboo Mickey Mantle out oftown because he had the gall to replace DiMaggio. They finally did boo Roger Maris out of town for being as good as Mantle was at hitting home runs.
———————————————————————-
See Julius Caesar Act III Scene 2. Yankee crowd surely can be petty. The older fan who lived through Horace Clarke and the lean years isn’t so petulant, however. There is a new breed of fan – the post 90s type – that not only boos moronically, but has no sense of tradition and no real love of baseball. I don’t like booing on principle, but this new type of fan boos without any real context.
My dad told me many times about Mantle being booed, but in those days there was more of a baseball culture in the blood. Different world, with video screens, every second filled with deafening advertisements and music, etc.
Joe;
Most exciting player I ever saw play on the Yankees was Rickey Henderson, in the late 80s.
He isn’t a class act, but he sure was one hell of a ballplayer.
As great a season as Mantle had in winning the Triple Crown in ’56, it wasn’t the greatest season in history by any Triple Crown winner, much less overall seasons….and I’ve been a Mantle Groupie since first learned anything about baseball. Just etting the facts straight. When fans finally decided tat DiMaggio wasn’t coming back, they decided that h wasn’t worthy because he was a 4F draft dodger. Then it was because he didn’t win the Triple Crown every year. They finally decidd that since he was human, the could cheer him, because he apologized tthe fans, players and press for quitting o a ground ball that cost Maris 2 broken ribs in 1960. After th, their target turned to is for hitting more homers than Mantle.
Dave,
With respect to “Manny in the Clubhouse” I would assume management has or will have spoken to the Captain, other senior players such as Mo, Jorge and Arod, as to whether he would blend it, or if there would be problems. I would also assume consideraton would be given to the comments of Torre, Mattingly and Bowa , each of whom has made his thoughts as to Manny public, as recently as the evening of the “Torre Event” a few weeks past.
With respect to Girardi, I take at face value, for purposes of this discussion, Joe’s reply to the “Manny Question”..”who wouldn’t want him in their starting lineup. He’s a HOF hitter”.
The bottom line is that neither you nor I from the outside looking in can really say whether he would or wouldn’t be a clubhouse fit. That is a question only the players who know him, perhaps played with him (such as Damon), or the coaches/manager who managed or coached him, can. If the Yankees choose not to make him an offer, I would assume that they have addressed that point and concluded in the negative. Anything short of that is abject speculation.
bodhisattva
December 3rd, 2008 at 9:01 pm
BS. Yankee fans have been booing Rodriguez since the day he got to NY. Mainly because they were afraid he’s steal Jeter’s light. I doubt that Rodriguez cares about Jeter’s “light”. Yankee fans can be as petty and “lowbrow” as any fans in baseball. They spent ten years tring toboo Mickey Mantle out oftown because he had the gall to replace DiMaggio. They finally did boo Roger Maris out of town for being as good as Mantle was at hitting home runs.———————————————————————————————————
See Julius Caesar Act III Scene 2. Yankee crowd surely can be petty. The older fan who lived through Horace Clarke and the lean years isn’t so petulant, however. There is a new breed of fan – the post 90s type – that not only boos moronically, but has no sense of tradition and no real love of baseball. I don’t like booing on principle, but this new type of fan boos without any real context.
My dad told me many times about Mantle being booed, but in those days there was more of a baseball culture in the blood. Different world, with video screens, every second filled with deafening advertisements and music, etc.
———————————————————–
The real shame is at Horace Clarke was a pretty good ball player. He was an exceptional second baseman and cou run like the wind. He didn’t have a lot of power, but, his first 2 major league homers were grand slams.
GB 7…from one Mantle groupie to another….
I didn’t say it was “the greatest season ever by any triple crown winner”.
Taking a myriad of factors into account, some of which are not capable of objective determination, but are based on the manner in which the Mick played, excelled etc., it was, qualitatively, or subjectively to me, “the greatest season ever” by a baseball player.
MIck was, most simply put, “playing in a different league”. You had to be there to fully appreciate the magnitude of his abilities and accomplishments that year.
The real shame is at Horace Clarke was a pretty good ball player. He was an exceptional second baseman and cou run like the wind. He didn’t have a lot of power, but, his first 2 major league homers were grand slams.
——————————————————
Man, Horace was my favorite Yankee back then. We had box seats down the first base line, and our big rivalry was with Baltimore, not Boston. Elston Howard cut such a dignified figure as first base coach, and in those days, you could hear the laughter of the players, the ball thumping the glove, with the occasional organ interlude. We may have sucked, but THAT was baseball.
What can CC’s agent say? That his client doesn’t want to play in NY? They are just using the Yankees to drive up the price. I look for another team to come in at around 130M over six years. I don’t think the Yankees will budge off of 140M. They ‘ll wish him well and move on. This guy dosen’t want to play for us.
Ariel, this is what you said:
“As a diehard Yankee fan I consider myself blessed to have grown up in the NY area in the 50’s and watched the Mick enthrall the City, culminating in 1956, with the greatest year ever.”
For those who saw the Mick in his prime, what current ML player reminds you the most of him, if any, in terms of mannerisms, raw skills and the way he carried himself?
Yankee 21,
The only player whom I have ever seen who comes close to the Mick in combining awesome power with incredible speed was Bo Jackson, and he was still second. Though the current statistics from the right side are a bit different, the Mick’s time to first from the right side was 3.1, and the left, 3.4. No one at that time was even close.
As to power, Mickey has stated that he lost 10 -15 homers a year due to the centerfield distances in the old configuration. One might sense that’s an overstatement, but recalling my view from the black and white WPIX transmissions (as I watched a majority of home games) that’s about right. My only regret was that I did not see the “one that almost went out” and which would have under the re-configuration.
I recall with a snicker Joe Buck’s comments in the post -season that J.D. Drew has “Mantle-like Power”. Absolutely ridiculous. No one I have seen does. As much as I like and respect Josh Hamilton, for obvious reasons, and enjoyed enormously his exhibition, I was happy he didn’t hit “one out”.
CB
Just for clarification, it was a local LA reporter (I did not hear his name) who passed on the “information” that the LAAs had been contacted by the CC Team. Dibble was just doing the on-air interview.
What seemed most interesting was that this right after the interview with Gene Michael where Michael made the point about collusion. That was what made the reporter’s comment more intriguing. Rumor, 3rd hand info yes, but intriguing none the less.
Correction—-
*****Though the current statistics from the right side are a bit different, the Mick’s time to first from the left side was 3.1, and the right, 3.4. No one at that time was even close.*****
This offseason sucks majorly. The Yankees are becoming a joke and I’m thoroughly sick of it. If I wanted to be a fan of a bunch of drama queen losers I’d follow Boston sports.
bodhisattva
December 3rd, 2008 at 9:20 pm
The real shame is at Horace Clarke was a pretty good ball player. He was an exceptional second baseman and cou run like the wind. He didn’t have a lot of power, but, his first 2 major league homers were grand slams.———————————————————————————Man, Horace was my favorite Yankee back then. We had box seats down the first base line, and our big rivalry was with Baltimore, not Boston. Elston Howard cut such a dignified figure as first base coach, and in those days, you could hear the laughter of the players, the ball thumping the glove, with the occasional organ interlude. We may have sucked, but THAT was baseball.
————————————————————
There were two really classy gentlemen of the game, and you can add Al Downing to that group, back at a time when black player still weren’t greatly accepted unless you were Mays, Aaron, Gibson or Banks, and then only on the ball field. I had a chance to talk to them at different times in the 60s when I’d go to Yankee-Detroit games and drool over the Yankees and rag Kaline before the games and when they played in Chicago or Cleveland. Kaline would stand at the railing and talk about his idol…Mickey Mantle, for 10-15 minutes. Remember that Kaline was only about 3 years younger than Mantle. He’d laugh when I told him that he wasn’t half the ball player Mantle was. I was in Detrot the day Mantle launched one over the right center field roof into a lumber yar. Kaline just yelled…WOW, and applauded. 25 years later, a couple of math instructors at MSU found three witnesses that saw the ball hit the ground and it was measured at 643 feet.
“What can CC’s agent say? That his client doesn’t want to play in NY? They are just using the Yankees to drive up the price. I look for another team to come in at around 130M over six years. I don’t think the Yankees will budge off of 140M. They ‘ll wish him well and move on. This guy dosen’t want to play for us.”
I’m sure you know what happens when we assume. CC just wants to see if he will get any WC offers once he doesn’t he will be a Yankee. Not every player grows up wanting to be a Yankee, hes a California guy and hes just waiting to see if anyone gets close to the Yankee offer, which they wont. His agent wouldn’t be doing his job if he said “c’mon CC take the Yanks offer right now!” before anybody else got involved. When it comes down to it and CC has offers far less than ours his agent will tell him to make the best decision for him and his family. Its certainly in the best interest of CC to take the best deal.
iT IS ALL a matter of speculation as to whether CC doesnt want to play with us or is just waiting for a better offer so he can make more money or waiting for a WC offer so he can see if a team there matches the yanks. And I think the yanks would go higher if they truly believe CC is coming to them in the end and this isnt just a ploy to get his price up.
fACT IS, no other team has even put in a bid and the angels dont even appear interested in CC. Unless he wants to wait until Tex is off the market, he has two options – yanks for 140 mil or Mil for 100 mil. Seems like a given it would be NY considering Mil is a far cry from the WC and 40 mil is a lot of money. Braintrust, Another team has to offer CC something close to 140 for the yanks to even have to make the decision to go up. No team out there currently is even in play. There is absolutely no clear evidence that CC doesnt want to play for the yanks and if anything, he has nothing against NY or the yankees but he would rather play in the west coast. That doesnt mean he wouldnt play here or doesnt want to. And he probably wont even have much of a choice in the end.
I love how CC claimed before free agency that he didnt want this process to drag on. i wonder under what circumstances he was speaking. He was offered the largest mlb pitching contract ever in the first day of free agency and hasnt said a single word about it. He is waiting for teams that clearly have no interest in him right now and no one really has any clue exact;y what he is waiting for. i JUST FIND the original comment ironic considering he didnt want the process to drag on and he is the only reason that the process is dragging on and we dont even know why he is doing it exactly.
yankee21
December 3rd, 2008 at 9:26 pm
For those who saw the Mick in his prime, what current ML player reminds you the most of him, if any, in terms of mannerisms, raw skills and the way he carried himself?
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Talent wise…hitting, power, speed, defense, arm, all around ungodly gifts…Alex Rodriguez
GB, my father has said the same thing.
You can’t say factually which Triple Crown season was “the best”. Mantle’s was the best of the era of integration and that’s significant as is the fact his 52 HR are the most of any Triple Crown winner.
Hey Long Island Joe— I went to my first game in 1964 too!
GB 7 — Maybe Horace Clarke was a great guy, but he was not a good player. He never hit over .285, never hit 10 HR, stole 30 bases once (33-for-46), never drove in 50 runs, never scored 90, never had 200 hits and averaged 14 errors a season in the 7 years he played regularly.
Yankee21, 10 years ago, I would have said, Ken Griffey Jr.
How many free agents in the last decade have refused to come to the yanks when they got a good offer? n
Why are the Yankees a “joke” this off-season when nothing major has happened with any team? Obviously the market is developing slowly and tentatively at least in part because of the economic mess we’re in.
If the roster is exactly the same on January tenth then I’ll start to get concerned. Until then just relax.
s for college football, Florida/Southern Cal is the game to match the best two teams in the country. Probably — make that almost certainly won’t happen, but that’s my preference.
December 3rd, 2008 at 9:41 pm
You can’t say factually which Triple Crown season was “the best”. Mantle’s was the best of the era of integration and that’s significant as is the fact his 52 HR are the most of any Triple Crown winner.
Hey Long Island Joe—- I went to my first game in 1964 too!
GB 7—Maybe Horace Clarke was a great guy, but he was not a good player. He never hit over .285, never hit 10 HR, stole 30 bases once (33-for-46), never drove in 50 runs, never scored 90, never had 200 hits and averaged 14 errors a season in the 7 years he played regularly.
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At the time that Horace Clarke was playing the league batting average was ab.240 from 1966-1970. That’s when league leading batting averages were, .307, .316, .326, .301, and then started rising.
Clarke was a good player.
GB,Ariel; thanks for sharing your opinions.
dave; regarding CC, this has got to be one of his most important decisions ever, give him some slack to make the right decision for him and his family.
If 140mil from NY isn’t enough of a priority, forget him and move on. It may hurt the staff, but the Yankees have to suck it up and deal with it.
It’s always amazed that for periods of time during their era’s both Mantle and Ted Williams were booed intensely by their own hometown fans and written about negatively in the local press.
As a yankee fan now its inconceivable to think of New York fans not embracing Mantle.
Years from now yankee fans will wonder the same thing about Alex.
Its particularly ironic how New Yorkers used to criticize Mantle for being a guy who was all talent and numbers but wasn’t a clutch player. In Boston they said similar things about Williams.
It’s remarkable how much things change and at the same time stay the same.
Micket Mantle was a do nothing, over rated bum. Ted Williams got plenty of hits when they didn’t matter – but was over rated because he wasn’t clutch.
You got to love it.
sim sim salabim I stare into my copper bowl filled with diet mountain dew and see cc signs with the Yankees on day three of the winter meetings
“I love how CC claimed before free agency that he didnt want this process to drag on. i wonder under what circumstances he was speaking. He was offered the largest mlb pitching contract ever in the first day of free agency and hasnt said a single word about it. He is waiting for teams that clearly have no interest in him right now and no one really has any clue exact;y what he is waiting for. i JUST FIND the original comment ironic considering he didnt want the process to drag on and he is the only reason that the process is dragging on and we dont even know why he is doing it exactly.”
I find that a bit odd. Obviously he is holding out hope that the Tex situation breaks down between the Angels and Boras however if Tex signs with the Halos he will be a Yankee by default(I can’t believe I just said that).
“How many free agents in the last decade have refused to come to the yanks when they got a good offer? n”
I think just Maddux and Schilling. Most players want to come here even for less, Beltran is an example(how bad did that set us back) and Vlad Guerrero wanted to be a Yankee but George thought Sheffield was the better player. Manny could have also been had at a home-town price but George preferred Giambi definitely 2 huge miscues.
I really believe that CC is in denial that no WC team is bidding on him.
Realize that this is pure specualtion, but I can imagine that CC had, in his own mind, thought that based on his performance in 2008, the WC teams would be lining up with mega-offers for him. What he didn’t foresee is the financial crash, and the effect it is having. No one could have foreseen this. CC is now only looking at two (known) offers, neither from California. He must be tremendously disappointed, and is giving the California teams more time to see the error of their ways.
When that doesn’t happen, he will have to decide between the Yankees’ and Milwaukee’s offers. Not exactly the scenario he had in mind a month ago.
That’s likely why he is taking more time to decide. However, from what I’ve read, he is a real professional, and, once signed, will play to the best of his ability.
Tom
December 3rd, 2008 at 9:40 pm
GB, my father has said the same thing.
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In the last 30+ years, only Griffey and Rodriguez has come close to producing that kind of talent/excitement. The main difference was that nobody missed a Mantle at bat. even other ball players said that they’d never hard the sound of the ball off of the bat like Mantle, and since then, Rodriguez comes the closest. Ted Williams said this a few times.
back bench,
Thanks for the clarification.
At the presser introducing CC:
PeteAbe (Journal News): So why did you choose the Yankees?
CC (with a really sour face): Well, I didn’t have much choice did I? It was either bologna or prime rib. No one offered fish tacos.
Wow, apart from Manny’s “do I want to play today?” in the clubhouse, you’re looking, if he signs, at:
LF — either Matsui or Manny.
CF — Johnny Damon’s collection of walking-wounded injuries.
RF — fleet footed Xavier Nady.
Worst.
Defensive.
Outfield.
Ever.
The over/under on starting pitching ERA would be about 5-something. And Pettite will quickly decide LA is just fine.
Ask the Texas Rangers how well it works to always have to score more than 5-7 runs a game in order to win.
With that outfield, nobody here will have to worry about whether A-Rod performs in the post-season. There won’t be one. But it sure is fun to watch Manny hit and play.
CB
December 3rd, 2008 at 9:52 pm
It’s always amazed that for periods of time during their era’s both Mantle and Ted Williams were booed intensely by their own hometown fans and written about negatively in the local press.
As a yankee fan now its inconceivable to think of New York fans not embracing Mantle.
Years from now yankee fans will wonder the same thing about Alex.
Its particularly ironic how New Yorkers used to criticize Mantle for being a guy who was all talent and numbers but wasn’t a clutch player. In Boston they said similar things about Williams.
It’s remarkable how much things change and at the same time stay the same.
Micket Mantle was a do nothing, over rated bum. Ted Williams got plenty of hits when they didn’t matter – but was over rated because he wasn’t clutch.
You got to love it.
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In 55 years of watching, I have never seen any player that hit 35 homers and knocked in 100+ empty runs in a season. Not sure where NYY would have finished last year without them since 5th place is the lowest the division goes.
Al from BK-
I think you’ve hit it on the nose.
We’re gonna have to wait until Texira signs with the Angels before CC accepts our offer.
Unfortunately, Tex is represented by Boras who likes to drag on negotiations. This means CC won’t sign until early january, 4 week before spring training.
Just in case some people are in college and never had a real job here is a tip. When someone offers you a job you ask for more money than they offer you, they expect it and if you’re career is one in which you shop an offer around to see if you get a better one, you do that. It doesn’t mean you don’t want to work for someone if you don’t spring out of you’re chair and say yes please to what’s initially offered. Especially when you have leverage and when Alfredo Aceves is the Yankees number three starer you have a lot of leverage
mel-
Trying to use the same material twice? It was funny both times.
“In the last 30+ years, only Griffey and Rodriguez has come close to producing that kind of talent/excitement.”
They were unquestionably on their entirely own planet in terms of 5 tool talent. I’d have to place Pujols in their class as well.
Quite honestly – there is simply no comparison anymore between Alex’s bat and Pujols. Pujols is truly the modern day version of Ted Williams – only Pujols is also a great fielder.
Not saying he’s going to get the Griffey/Rodriguez level – but Justin Upton is absolutely the best talent to enter the game since Alex.
Talent wise Upton is just phenomenal. The things he did this past year for his age were unbelievable. His game is nowhere as refined as Alex’s or Jr. at that age – Upton is still more athlete less ball player than they were. But Upton is a star.
The only other guy talent wise who was similar was Josh Hamilton when he was drafted. The stories about his bat speed and running ability were just unbelievable.
Buddy,
Follow-up question:
Joel Sherman: Do you like horseradish with your prime rib? Don’t believe what you hear about the NY media. It’s just not true!
If manny is signed it will be to DH, almost exclusively. Nady is a vast improvement in right over Abreu, Damon is good in left and with Gardner or Melky in CF, that OF looks very good to me defensively. Question is what to do with Matsui, but it’s nice to have some depth, injuries will absolutely happen.
CB, I agree, and the only reason that I didn’t include Pujols in that is speed. But, correct you are…Pujols is a right handed Ted Williams.
Upton could get thee, IF, he doesn’t start falling in love with himself. That could end up with him bouncing from team to team. He could easily get to the Mantle, Griffey, Mays, Rodriguez type talent/production, or, he cold just as easily become Gary Templeton.
If the Angels lose Tex, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll go for CC. They’ve repeatedly said they want to add offense (at the same time letting Anderson go). Maybe they go after Manny instead, knowing they have an ace already.
“Al from BK-
I think you’ve hit it on the nose.
We’re gonna have to wait until Texira signs with the Angels before CC accepts our offer.
Unfortunately, Tex is represented by Boras who likes to drag on negotiations. This means CC won’t sign until early january, 4 week before spring training.”
Dunno about that. Tex has said he wants a team way before Christmas and with many suitors I think hes signed at the winter meetings. CC will follow the action will go down this upcoming week.
C////b, my error…my last reference was to BJ Upton. I’ve seen a few Justin Upton games, but, when they start mentioning him as the guy to threaten Rodriguez for all time home runs, I gotta say…”stop right there. Let’s talk in 5 years.”
Lackey is going to cost some big time loot to re-sign, not as much as CC but could be close.
Gary Templeton was a decent ballplayer, I remember his famous line ref the AS Game… ” IF I ain’t starting, I ain’t departing”
I believe he was a 1:1 swap with the Oz.
IMO; Justin at this point is potential and hype, I agree with GB, give him a few years before he gets mentioned in the same breath as the legend.
Justin’s bro isn’t too shabby either. BJ has definite tools, but he comes across as having a chip on his shoulder.
“If the Angels lose Tex, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll go for CC. They’ve repeatedly said they want to add offense (at the same time letting Anderson go). Maybe they go after Manny instead, knowing they have an ace already.”
Very true Mel. They will also have to re-sign Lackey next season and he will want “Ace” money.
On top of it all, the Angels and the Red Sox are smart organizations. They would never throw $23M + at a pitcher just because they missed the playoffs and their big-mouth owner/spokesperson promised to land a big fish.
I feel like a bi-polar weirdo with respect to my fluctuation in perception of CC Sabathia and his indecision.
I guess its because so much hinges on his decision…I mean, the Yankees are not in a great position in 2009 if they don’t get him. In fact, its going to be tough goings on the pitching front.
Maybe it leads to us going for Teixeira, but honestly, I don’t really perceive that as helping the team fill glaring holes.
A rotation of Wang, Joba, Pettitte, Lowe/Burnett/Sheets, and whoever else is just not all that imposing if you ask me. And I am radically opposed to the signing of Burnett or Sheets sheerly because of injury history. Not worth the risk.
C.C. is not the sort of person who can have his cake and eat it too.
If he has the cake he will most certainly eat it.
If he doesn’t want to play here he can take his fat ass to the west coast.
The Brewers used him like a rented mule. He may well break down
“On top of it all, the Angels and the Red Sox are smart organizations.”
People have talked about the Angels signing CC and then trading a pitcher (Saunders, Santana) for a bat.
They could do that in theory but that’s a bad risk proposition for them.
If they do that they are allocating $130M to the pitcher instead of to the hitter which is what they really need.
Given that it’s really offense they need, that’s a very poor use of resources.
If they lose out on Tex I think they’ll move on to Many.
They have an opening in left. Anderson isn’t coming back.
And they could stick it to the Dodgers.
Thanks Al I didn’t know CC stood for Carsten Charles. Actually In my head I’m already sick of hearing that stooge Michael Kay call him Carsten Charles Sabathia so that will be my silver lining if he ends up elsewhere.
I hope Wang wins 20 games this season. No, seriously, I hope he does.
yankee21
December 3rd, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Gary Templeton was a decent ballplayer, I remember his famous line ref the AS Game… ” IF I ain’t starting, I ain’t departing”
I believe he was a 1:1 swap with the Oz.
IMO; Justin at this point is potential and hype, I agree with GB, give him a few years before he gets mentioned in the same breath as the legend.
Justin’s bro isn’t too shabby either. BJ has definite tools, but he comes across as having a chip on his shoulder
————————————————————
Templeton could have been a legendary shortstop. That’s how great his talent was. He wasted it, though.
One thing that I didn’t mention about Mantle and Rodriguez was personality/temperment. Paul O’Neill had Mantle’s temper. Rodrriguez has one, too, but, he’s never let it go. If he did, I think it would do wonders for him. He and Mantle were two very insecure players, but, Mays was too. Insecure in their talents…not believing that they were as good as they really are. There’s a very good book on Mantle by Tony Castro called “Mickey Mantle: America’s Prodigal Son”. He discusses Mantle with psychologists and came up with some amazing insights. Here’s some excerpts to a great read. Enjoy it and save it. A lot of reading, but get the book. You’ll love it.
http://books.google.com/books?.....t#PPP13,M1
If I was Cashman I would call CC’s agent before the meetings and tell him that when the meetings end I need to have a better idea on where the Yankees stand. He doesn’t have to give him a deadline, but make it clear that an answer needs to given soon. It seems obvious that CC is going to wait to see if Tex doesn’t go to the Angels and he will hope that they will then offer him a deal. Or if the Giants offer a deal since they know they can get him with a below market value contract. If the Braves offer the 5th year to Burnett I can see him accepting it quickly. Lowe will probably wait around because of Bora$. But the Yanks could wind up losing out on other pitchers or trades because they are sitting around waiting too long for CC when he has shown no interest in coming here.
as much as we “need” CC i will be elated if he goes somewhere else and totally falls apart, bc god knows this board will explode if he goes somewhere else and exceeds lol
thanks much GB, I’ll definitely check it out
Mantle is just one of those guys that just intrigues me
I hope Wang and CC both win 20+ games in Yankee pinstripes.
I hope Wang, CC and Joba all win 20+ games in Yankee pinstripes.
yankee21
December 3rd, 2008 at 10:43 pm
thanks much GB, I’ll definitely check it out
Mantle is just one of those guys that just intrigues me
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Hey…my pleasure. Another great book by Mark Gallagher called “Explosion”. It lists all of his homers against whom and game stories about a lot of them. Interviews of players involved in the games…including the one i mentioned in Detroit in Sept of 1960 that travelled 643 feet. Fun book to read. It’s out of print, but, there are sites to buy them. One is linked below, but Ebay and amazon.com have them available. just type the book title and author.
I hope Joba can make at least 20 starts.
Might be a little tricky for Joba.
link to Explosion”.
http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Exp.....c=b-search
mel
December 3rd, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I hope Joba can make at least 20 starts.
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I’m guessing that he should get 23-25 starts. Innings of about 140-150 innings, tops.
GB7,
I vote for a 5 inning limit per game. That way we can squeeze 28-30 starts out of him. Let the bullpen take over.
I hope the Yanks win 20 games.
In APRIL!!!!!!!!
Joba may not get there this year, but in my opinion, he will be the number one starter on the Yankees very soon, even if CC, Wang and Burnett are on the team.
mel
December 3rd, 2008 at 10:58 pm
GB7,
I vote for a 5 inning limit per game. That way we can squeeze 28-30 starts out of him. Let the bullpen take over.
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He’ll have some 6-7 inning games, but, he’ll have a few 3-4 inning games, too. If he has a few good starts and gets some <100 pitch games, he may squeeze out a few extra innings. I think they’ll monitor the ease of games to judge how much he pitches.
Andy has already picked out his locker but $6 million stands between done deal and bye-bye. Rule 5 ploy or real stumbling block?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12.....f=baseball
CC is most definitely waiting for Teixeira to sign first. Boras is definitely dragging the negotiations with Teixeira because he doesn’t want the Yankees to be able to move so soon on Sabathia and then Manny before the Angels can get in on Manny.
I think Boras feels the Sox will outbid the Angels for Teixeira and then the Angels will turn to his other client Manny Ramirez. The Yankees will then have to engage in a bidding war with the Angels for Manny Ramirez. CC will still have to wait to see if the Angels will turn to him if they lose Manny to the Yanks.
I think Boras is screwing up this whole CC thing and I’m fairly confident that the Yankees would know for sure if CC was adamantly against coming here under any circumstances or at least really leaning against it. With that kind of knowledge, the Yankees would’ve moved on by now and locked up Burnett or officially entered the Manny sweepstakes. But they haven’t even offered a single contract other than the CC contract so far. Everything is on hold and the Yankees don’t put everything on hold unless they have well-founded expectations of how things will shake out.
The reason why the Yanks are comfortable waiting is because they made sure CC’s interest is genuine his willingness to play in NY equally real. CC is keeping us guessing as to when or where he’ll sign, but he’s definitely strongly considering NY or else we would be clued in and not jerked around. There’s no way his agent is dumb enough to string along a team with the Yankees resources.
CC really likes the idea of coming here for the right price.
Now we wait for Boras to find a home for Tex, then Manny.
My prediction is Tex to the Sox, then Burnett to the Yanks, then Manny to the Yanks, then CC to the Yanks.
Yankees confident that CC will come sooner than later…
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....5382.story
“CC really likes the idea of coming here for the right price.”
What else has he told you?
THE MICK……enough said….by the way Horace Clark got a bum rap, as he followed Bobby Richardson…..The crash of that Yankee dynasty really gained steam when Bobby and Tony Kubek retired unexpectedly….Of course there were many other contributing factors, but losing your leadoff & 2nd hitter who also are your keystone combo is a sure way for a ballclub to start taking on water….Watching Mantle taking BP was a sight to behold….Hamilton’s HR contest show was great , but Mantle would provide a display from both sides of the plate…..As kids we’d go to the upper deck with shopping bags and collect baseballs as Mantle, Maris, Yogi, Pepi, Tresh would hit at least 30 upstairs during BP……But Mantle would hit them in the far reaches of the upper decks……..
Nick-
Shush! You will wake him up.
pat
December 3rd, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Andy has already picked out his locker but $6 million stands between done deal and bye-bye. Rule 5 ploy or real stumbling block?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12.....f=baseball
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In can see an acceptable compromise if both move 3 million from what they stated. 13 mil for one year. That would be a fair deal for what Pettitte can offer and what NYY needs.
Nick in SF,
If CC hated the idea of coming here no matter what the price, we would’ve known by now and moved on.
He wants fair value for his services and perhaps an offer from the Angels that approaches the Yanks offer will boost the Yankees final offer.
How does he know the Yanks have made their final offer unless he gives other teams a chance to bid?
And if the Yankees made their final offer, wouldn’t they say so, wouldn’t we know it or CC know it?
PAT M
December 3rd, 2008 at 11:32 pm
THE MICK……enough said….by the way Horace Clark got a bum rap, as he followed Bobby Richardson…..The crash of that Yankee dynasty really gained steam when Bobby and Tony Kubek retired unexpectedly….Of course there were many other contributing factors, but losing your leadoff & 2nd hitter who also are your keystone combo is a sure way for a ballclub to start taking on water….Watching Mantle taking BP was a sight to behold….Hamilton’s HR contest show was great , but Mantle would provide a display from both sides of the plate…..As kids we’d go to the upper deck with shopping bags and collect baseballs as Mantle, Maris, Yogi, Pepi, Tresh would hit at least 30 upstairs during BP……But Mantle would hit them in the far reaches of the upper decks……..
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Add to the injuries/retirements age aging process, what killed NYY badly was the crippling injuries to Bouton and Downing in 1965 and the bizarre trade of Clete Boyer to the Braves. Maris’ broken hand never healed and his power never did return…even when he played golf.
“THE MICK……enough said….”
1957. People are always talking about his triple crown year in 56.
But in certain ways he was arguably better in ’57 than in 56 (though I think the monstrous 56 season scared the heck out of pitchers and probably led to 57…).
Mantle season in 1957 is one of the most under rated seasons in baseball history.
.512 OBP. Amazing. To hit for that kind of power surrounded by those hitters and to still get on base more than 50% of the time. Unbelievable.
“How does he know the Yanks have made their final offer unless he gives other teams a chance to bid?
And if the Yankees made their final offer, wouldn’t they say so, wouldn’t we know it or CC know it?”
Don’t those questions contradict each other?
I always thought that Steve whitaker and Roger Repoz were going to really explode. They looked so great during batting practice.
Nick,
No they don’t.
Bret the Hitman,
stop watching WWF/E, its killing your brain cells.
CB
December 3rd, 2008 at 11:43 pm
“THE MICK……enough said….”
1957. People are always talking about his triple crown year in 56.
But in certain ways he was arguably better in ‘57 than in 56 (though I think the monstrous 56 season scared the heck out of pitchers and probably led to 57…).
Mantle season in 1957 is one of the most under rated seasons in baseball history.
.512 OBP. Amazing. To hit for that kind of power surrounded by those hitters and to still get on base more than 50% of the time. Unbelievable.
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Those 146 walks took away a lot of at bats in ’57. That was the year that they allowed him to start stealing a few bases….you almost never saw him get thrown out. Had they needed steals foir the offense, he could have stolen 40 a year with ease.
I get what you’re saying. CC doens’t know if the Yankees have made their final offer because if the Yankees had made their final offer, he would know it.
The first question means CC Sabathia did not get a final offer from the Yankees and is waiting for another team to enter the bidding and force the Yankees towards their final offer.
The second question means that if CC knows the Yankees have made their final offer, he wants to see if anyone can beat it or come close enough to it that he might take less money to play in a more ideal situation.
First, I highly doubt the Yankees made their initial offer a final offer.
Second, I highly doubt the Yankees would fail to increase their initial offer if another team came close.
But the overall point is that CC is waiting for more money, not because he doesn’t really want to be a Yankee.
If he hated the idea of coming here no matter what the reward, we would know by now and would have moved on in a way that it would be obvious that we were no longer waiting on him. This means we’d be making multiple offers to various free agents not named Carsten Charles Sabathia.
Get it?
Ed,
duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
The real question is, what did CC know and when did he know it?
Synopsis for Nick in San Fransisco.
CC is waiting for more money, not because he doesn’t really want to be a Yankee.
If he hated the idea of coming here no matter what the reward, we would know by now and would have moved on.
Therefore he likes the idea of coming here for the right price.
Nick if you can’t understand that, I can’t help you.
the Padres were closing in on trading their starting shortstop, Khalil Greene to the Cardinals.
http://blogs.nypost.com/sports.....ene_o.html
…interesting?
Wait, CC is the guy from the Brewers, right?
I get him mixed up with the guy from the Blue Jays, they both use two initials for their first name.
CB….He almost won the Triple Crown in 57…….GB7, you are right on with the rapid sinking of the SS NY Yankees after the 64 loss in St. Louis…..The Bouton, Downing injuries coupled with Whitey Ford no longer able to bend his elbow after 15 years of breaking balls…..Then Tresh tears up his knee , Clete and Roger are gone…It was the most historic rapid collapse in baseball annuals….AL Champs in 64 to the cellar in 66….Incredible to to revisit it…..In 1970 I went on a recruiting trip to University of South Carolina in Columbus to decide if I accept their baseball scholarship ….Bobby Richardson had just taken over the program…..Got to work out with him and had dinner with his family…..His hands and pivot were blinding and yet so smooth……
If anybody is bored or interested I wasted about half an hour on this (http://www.baseball-reference......ason.shtml) It just gives you a list of the best single season OPS+ in history. You can do career or some other variations too. Ted Williams has the 9th best single season OPS+ in history, at age 38.
Nick,
It’s obvious you don’t want to talk baseball with me. That’s fine.
See everyone else tomorrow.
“Those 146 walks took away a lot of at bats in ‘57.”
This is a perfect example of why looking at stats like home runs and rbi’s can be so misleading.
Mantle only hit 34 HR that year and only had 94 RBI’s that season. I’m sure that’ why people don’t appreciate how awesome he was. Year before he went 52HR/ 130 RBI’s.
But he was as good in 57 as he was in 56 – just in a slightly different way.
In order to appreciate that season you have to look at the ridiculous number of walks. 146. He only had 474 at bats that season.
474 at bats. That’s it. He missed 10 games with injuries but in 57 he just didn’t have that many official at bats due to the walks so he couldn’t rack up as many counting stats like HR and RBIs.
Today hitters can rack up 600 at bats in a season – jeter often gets more.
Jimmy Rollins won the MVP in 2007. Hit 30 HR and had 90 RBIs. But he had 716 at bats.
474 at bats vs. 716. 34% more at bats in a season.
It’s funny that you guys are talking about 56′ and 57′ because I noticed them on the OPS+ list. In 57 Mick had an OPS+ of 223 which ranks 14th but in 56′ which some folks might argue the numbers were “better” he was “only” at 210 and 28th on the list. Goes to your point I think CB.
“See everyone else tomorrow.”
That’s cold.
PAT M
December 4th, 2008 at 12:09 am
CB….He almost won the Triple Crown in 57…….GB7, you are right on with the rapid sinking of the SS NY Yankees after the 64 loss in St. Louis…..The Bouton, Downing injuries coupled with Whitey Ford no longer able to bend his elbow after 15 years of breaking balls…..Then Tresh tears up his knee , Clete and Roger are gone…It was the most historic rapid collapse in baseball annuals….AL Champs in 64 to the cellar in 66….Incredible to to revisit it…..In 1970 I went on a recruiting trip to University of South Carolina in Columbus to decide if I accept their baseball scholarship ….Bobby Richardson had just taken over the program…..Got to work out with him and had dinner with his family…..His hands and pivot were blinding and yet so smooth……
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I always understood why Kubek retired. I understand the doctors had told him that he should have retired after the ’60 Series when the ball snapped his he back when the ball hit him in the throat. Apparently, he cracked a bone in his neck and they were afraid he’d be paralyzed. He was never the same hitter after that. Man he could play shortstop, though, and a great left and center fielder when needed. Never understood how he could stay in the military reserves with that problem. Richardson’s decision was to retire after ’65, but held off because of Kubek’s issues.
I mentioned Whitaker and Repoz. They were great hitters in batting practice, but, never quite got going. Had Downing and ?Bouton stayed healthy, they would have had a great staff by 1968 with Stottlemyre, Peterson, Downing, Bouton and Stan Bahnsen (talk about bad trades). With Murcer and Munson coming in to front the offense, those nightmare years would have never happened.
“He almost won the Triple Crown in 57…….”
Well depends on how close “almost” counts for. Roy Sievers hit 42 HR and had 114 RBI’s – so he was well ahead of Mantle on both counts.
Of course Sievers also had 100 more at bats…
It’s one of those odd turns of luck that Mantle won the MVP award. If Mantle wasn’t playing for the the AL champions and Sievers playing for well… the Senators I’m sure people would have thought Sievers could have had the superior season.
In fact there was no comparison between them. I’d guess Mantle got the MVP for all the wrong reasons – not because he was the much better player – but because he happened to play on the right team.
As an aside – I’ve always loved the MVP results from ’54 to ’57. Yogi goes back to back MVPs in 54 and 55. Then Mantle goes back to back MVPs in 56 and 57.
Unimaginable now – two teammates winning consecutive back to back MVPs like that.
But then the MVP awards from ’54 to ’63 are also pretty nice to look at. Now I know they’d only give MVP to the guy on the winning team… but for the yankees to win 8 MVP awards in 10 years is just beautiful still to this day…
Well its good to see that Yanks officials think CC will end up here. Assuming this is true, I wonder what moves follow? Lowe, Sheets, Manny, Dunn?
So, Nick, you’ve managed to piss off yet another -LoHugger- LoHudder. Whadya do this time?
O/T, but what were jay destro & trisha feeling in their bones today? They both thought something big would happen today.
My Jedi mind tricks might have backfired.
As for your other question, I dare not speculate.
mel-
Nick doesn’t know who CC is? Please fill in the blanks.
Al,
Why would the Yankees choose to pursue Lowe over Burnett? Just because of a report that the Braves “may” go 5 years?
If you add CC, you have:
CC
Wang
Pettitte
Joba
Hughes
Not bad, but could be better:
CC
Wang
AJ/Lowe
Pettitte
Joba
Hughes to fill in.
CB, I suffer from the occasional brain cramp….It was my rush of Mantle mania that caused me to error…My intent was to point out back to back MVP’S…..
CB
December 4th, 2008 at 12:14 am
“This is a perfect example of why looking at stats like home runs and rbi’s can be so misleading.
Mantle only hit 34 HR that year and only had 94 RBI’s that season. I’m sure that’ why people don’t appreciate how awesome he was. Year before he went 52HR/ 130 RBI’s.”
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People talk about what he could have done had he not misse so many games, but, i look at what he did when he shouldn’t have been playing and did. Even had he just been normal healthy in the games that he did play, he’d come close to holding most of the power records plus 3000 hits, 500 doubles, 100 triples, 200-300 steals. Watching him sliding into second on doubles or steals had to scare the Hell out of infielders. He slid in so hard and started his slides so late that most infielders were running into left field to get away. It was like watching Hal McRae sliding in.
“In 57 Mick had an OPS+ of 223 which ranks 14th but in 56’ which some folks might argue the numbers were “better” he was “only” at 210 and 28th on the list.”
Those two seasons are just great examples of how a players fundamental performance can be essentially functioning at the same high caliber yet look completely different when you eyeball things.
More recently David Ortiz’s 2006 and 2007 seasons were like this. 2006 Ortiz hit 54 HR/ 135 RBIs and the next year 34 HR/117 HR.
In 2007 a lot of people were commenting on how Ortiz’s power numbers had fallen off from his “career year” the season before.
Papi in fact was probably even better in 2007 than he was in 2006. He was just brilliant in a very different way.
Pat, GB7,
Who was hitting behind Mantle in 1957? It’s amazing that he got walked 146 times with that ridiculous line up around him, especially with his speed.
Imagine if he was in a normal line up? He’d have gotten walked 220 times.
CB
December 4th, 2008 at 12:38 am
Pat, GB7,
Who was hitting behind Mantle in 1957? It’s amazing that he got walked 146 times with that ridiculous line up around him, especially with his speed.
Imagine if he was in a normal line up? He’d have gotten walked 220 times.
———————————————————–
Berra, Skowren, Bauer and sieburn behind him. I think that it was Richardson and McDougald in front of him.
“but, i look at what he did when he shouldn’t have been playing and did. ”
A comparison I’ve always thought was interesting – and this might sound strange – Mantle and John Smoltz.
I bring up Smoltz because he is likely going to be the first pitcher in the Hall of Fame who had TJ surgery.
Smoltz’s has been a brilliant pitcher – no doubt hall of famer.
But he also is completely indebted to his career to modern sports medicine.
I’ve often though that Mantle would have been amongst the players who had great careers to have benefited the most from playing in the modern era given medical advancements (though I suppose the greater variety of substances to abuse may not have worked out so well either…)
Berra hit 4th.
“Al,
Why would the Yankees choose to pursue Lowe over Burnett? Just because of a report that the Braves “may” go 5 years?
If you add CC, you have:
CC
Wang
Pettitte
Joba
Hughes
Not bad, but could be better:
CC
Wang
AJ/Lowe
Pettitte
Joba
Hughes to fill in.”
You’re right Mel. However the Braves are sounding serious about AJ. If AJ indeed ends up in Atlanta then Peavy’s only suitors are the Cubs who don’t have the prospects to get it done. Given the fact that Towers and Cash are boys I could see Cash giving the pads a package w/out Phil and Ajax of course, but maybe IPK and a few other guys for Peavy.
1957 lineups
http://www.baseball-reference......7_lu.shtml
1958 lineups
http://www.baseball-reference......8_lu.shtml
Lineups and box scores for each game
GB7, Buddy,
Thanks – for some reason I thought Skowron hit behind Mantle. But I suppose he would have been too young that year to be given that role.
CB
December 4th, 2008 at 12:42 am
“but, i look at what he did when he shouldn’t have been playing and did. ”
A comparison I’ve always thought was interesting – and this might sound strange – Mantle and John Smoltz.
I bring up Smoltz because he is likely going to be the first pitcher in the Hall of Fame who had TJ surgery.
Smoltz’s has been a brilliant pitcher – no doubt hall of famer.
But he also is completely indebted to his career to modern sports medicine.
I’ve often though that Mantle would have been amongst the players who had great careers to have benefited the most from playing in the modern era given medical advancements (though I suppose the greater variety of substances to abuse may not have worked out so well either…)
———————————————————–
I’d add Koufax to that comparison with Mantle and Smoltz, too.
Al,
I can feel it in my bones, Jake will be a Yank. Unless he’s an Angel. No one else can afford to extend him. Does he jump the sinking ship?
“That’s cold.”
http://www.all4humor.com/image.....0Water.jpg
CB
December 4th, 2008 at 12:46 am
GB7, Buddy,
Thanks – for some reason I thought Skowron hit behind Mantle. But I suppose he would have been too young that year to be given that role.
———————————————————–
That had to be an embarrassingly talented team when you have Kubek and Ellie Howard playing as utility players.
Koufax is a good one. Fortunately he pitched just long enough for people to appreciate his brilliance.
The guy who is the complete opposite to me of Smoltz was Herb Score. I think we talked about him when he passed away. Career would have been completely different if he were pitching in the era of modern medicine.
But I guess you could say that about a lot of people (e.g. Stottlemeyer).
“Al,
I can feel it in my bones, Jake will be a Yank. Unless he’s an Angel. No one else can afford to extend him. Does he jump the sinking ship?”
I think Towers gives cash a 3 am phone call crying about how he needs to unload Peavy and how he can’t get anything for him. Cash says its ok kev you want IPK and some dregs for Peavy? At least thats how I hope it goes. Granted hes an NL guy but he could settle down nicely anywhere that guy is a fireballer.
“when you have Kubek and Ellie Howard playing as utility players.”
Isn’t that just like having Betemit and Shelley Duncan on the bench???
CB-
Now you sound like Bret the Hitman.
CB
December 4th, 2008 at 12:52 am
Koufax is a good one. Fortunately he pitched just long enough for people to appreciate his brilliance.
The guy who is the complete opposite to me of Smoltz was Herb Score. I think we talked about him when he passed away. Career would have been completely different if he were pitching in the era of modern medicine.
But I guess you could say that about a lot of people (e.g. Stottlemeyer).
————————————————————
Stottlemyre was so good, and with such bad teams…like Peavey. He’s never been accepted for being a HOF type pitcher had he remained healthy through and into the early 80s. Imagine winning 163 games with those teams in 10 full seasons and an ERA of 2.97. He’d be a 20 mil a year pitcher today.
CB
December 4th, 2008 at 12:53 am
“when you have Kubek and Ellie Howard playing as utility players.”
Isn’t that just like having Betemit and Shelley Duncan on the bench???
————————————————————
I think the similarities end with the same uniform logos. LMAO.
“He’d be a 20 mil a year pitcher today.”
mel, would you prefer AJ to Mel too?
Buddy,
I was desperately trying to top Nick’s, “Who is this CC” routine. GB7 provided the 2008 bench opening. Figured I’d run with it.
Or at least drop the ball with it … Betemit style.
I wonder if anybody but the Yanks could afford Koufax at 30-35 mil a year.
“I can feel it in my bones, Jake will be a Yank. Unless he’s an Angel. No one else can afford to extend him. Does he jump the sinking ship?”
mel,
I think your phrase – “jump the sinking ship” captures the essence of the dynamic in San Diego perfectly with regards to Peavy and Giles.
Both like the San Diego area and have no trade clauses. But when do they reach their breaking points and just say get me the heck out of here?
They are “building” a 55 win team out there right now. Do Giles and Peavy want to be part of that?
Greene is getting dumped. Giles is making $10M. They’ve got to be itching to get rid of him at that money.
I think Peavy may end up with the Angels. If Atlanta signs AJ then the Angels are going to be the team. I don’t believe these cubs rumors – they don’t have the salary room unless they can dump Jason Marquis.
Giles is an interesting guy. I would love for the yanks to acquire him. He was terrific offensively and defensively last season even at the age of 38.
Would the padres be interested in being reunited with Xavier Nady?
GB7,,,One thing that Richardson mentioned was that the injuries were an issue, but that when Yogi was fired and replaced with Johnny Keane it sucked the life out of the team…..This occurred just months after CBS bought the team….I remember his attitude was that the Yanks were no longer the Yanks…..He was right, Suits from downtown took over….Anyone recall Michael Burke…..By the way, Steve Whitaker and Roger Repoz did have beautiful swings….
I wonder how many people on this blog wouldn’t want Koufax. If there were at least one, it would be one too many.
“Giles is an interesting guy. I would love for the yanks to acquire him. He was terrific offensively and defensively last season even at the age of 38.
Would the padres be interested in being reunited with Xavier Nady?”
Wha? We are trading a 30 yr old OF for a 38 yr old OF who hits for no power and is a small market player?
GB7-
Your buddy Justin Christian is doing well in the Mexican league:
OF Justin Christian: At Mexico, tied for first with 12 stolen bases and ranks 10th with a .294 batting average (42-for-143) in 35 games. Has seven doubles and three HR.
“I wonder if anybody but the Yanks could afford Koufax at 30-35 mil a year.”
Keep going north on that salary.
Koufax went 27-9 his last season throwing 323 innings with an ERA of 1.73, and ERA+ of 190, and a WHIP of .98 striking out 317 while walking 77.
Just a top of my head calculation – Koufax would be worth in today’s dollars on a one year deal $45M – 50M.
Comparable to what Pedro Martinez 2000 would be worth today.
James,
Where is the leverage if you only have two offers for 100 and 140 million? He cant make up a third team and tell the yanks that he wants more. Just because the yanks have no pitching doesnt mean CC deserves to be offered more because no one has come close to the original offer. This isnt like shopping for a job and asking for more when you get hired – this is like the owner of the company saying we are the only company that wants you and only at this salary -take it or leave it. And considering he will be the highest payed person in his profession with the original offer, there isnt much room to say that he feels he deserves more.
Mad Prince,
i know how you feel with the whole bipolar thing. And if we cant sign CC and go after tex some people are overlooking the fact that we have three holes to fill in the rotation after bringing the payroll up to around 164 million – thats no more than 36 million for three starters. You have to take pettitte back at whatever he wants because we will be desperate so he will get at least 10 so now 26 mil for two top of the rotation pitchers or one and start coke or aceves. We take the 26 mil and throw it at sheets, burnett and lowe and we cant even really afford two of them. Even if we can and go back up to the 205 million 4 away from last season and the rotation is Wang, Sheets, Burnett, Pettitte, Joba,. Not nearly as imposing as CC, Wang, Sheets/Burnett, Pettitte, Joba.
Not to mention, pettitte will get and prolly deserves more because he may end up being a third starter at that point and the yanks are getting desperate and we somehow end up paying just as much if not more for Tex, Sheets, Burnett and Pettitte than we would for Tex, CC, Sheets and Pettitte only because the pitchers may get more money out of the yanks scrambling and desperation. At the very best the team ends up having the same payroll with a worse rotation.
This is the scenario if we lose out on CC and end up filling our rotation with second tier talent who want first tier money. That whole big three lingo must have meant big three contracts and NOT big three talents because Lowe and Burnett are both asking for four or five years while cc is probably getting 6 at 15 million per while cc IS probably getting 20. Yet, CC is more than twice as good as either of them and i REALLY think lowe would be a fifth starter and post a 5 era in the AL east if he signed with us. Outside of good control his stuff looks very hittable.
PAT M
December 4th, 2008 at 1:07 am
GB7,,,One thing that Richardson mentioned was that the injuries were an issue, but that when Yogi was fired and replaced with Johnny Keane it sucked the life out of the team…..This occurred just months after CBS bought the team….I remember his attitude was that the Yanks were no longer the Yanks…..He was right, Suits from downtown took over….Anyone recall Michael Burke…..By the way, Steve Whitaker and Roger Repoz did have beautiful swings….
———————————————————–
Oh, yeah…firing Berra was bad enough, but, the absolutely worst selection was Keane. The players knew that when he had Mantle playing in both ends of a double header after a night game, and they raised Hell, because they knew. Mantle never backed out of the games. Keane was the most colorless, hated person in that clubhouse. The only manager NYY had that matched as a hated or at least non-respected man was Bill Virdon.
Michael Burke…former President of Ringling Brothers-Barnum and Bailey Circus. Wild Bill Donovan’s right hand man with the OSS. Did you know that an episode of his exploits as a spy was made into a movie in 1946, “Cloak And Dagger”? The star of the movie……Gary Cooper.
As much as I hated the guy, Pedro was a God in 2000.
“We are trading a 30 yr old OF for a 38 yr old OF who hits for no power and is a small market player?”
Giles was arguably the best right fielder in baseball last year and one of the top 30 players in the entire game. And top 30 is conservative – closer to top 20.
People look at his “power numbers” and get all worked up but fail to do three things:
1. Think about how playing in Petco kills his HR.
2. How playing on that awful padre team gives him no RBI opportunities.
3. Fail to appreciate his on base skills.
Last time I checked Nady was nowhere close to a top 30 player and he is on the last year of his deal with Scot Borass as his agent.
Buddy ,I can say this for certain….That all the people who want to ride Hughes out of town on a rail, certainly would be the same people who give Sandy a ticket for a bus at the Port of Authority….He was not exactly making the grade for during his first 4 years…When he arrived in LA, and figured out how to pitch as opposed to throwing, he became Sandy Koufax ,,,A God, the greatest ever….He received great insight from Larry Sherry ( I think it was him )…..As I mentioned before, I was dragged to Game 1 of the 63 Series…I cried in disbelief as he whiffed 15 that day….I still think it was the first 5 hitters he K’d….Mantle later stated that you can hear the seams spinning as his curvball disappeard at the plate….Paralyzing….
And I’m not necessarily advocating Nady for Giles. If they could get away with trading prospects fine.
But Giles would be a tremendous addition.
Buddy Biancalana
December 4th, 2008 at 1:14 am
GB7-
Your buddy Justin Christian is doing well in the Mexican league:
OF Justin Christian: At Mexico, tied for first with 12 stolen bases and ranks 10th with a .294 batting average (42-for-143) in 35 games. Has seven doubles and three HR.
————————————————————
Yeah…if they can’t get a CF such as Mike Cameron as a stop gap, he’d be my choice to split center field with Gardner. He has the same attributes as Gardner except he has extra base power, but a tad less on defense.
Al,
I really dont think IPK will get it done for Peavy just because cash and towers are friendly. Towers has an owner to answer to and IPK’s stock is on the ground floor. I dont think that many Gms look at the fall league numbers and consider IPK much better than they did when the season ended. Those are AAAA players and kennedy was pretty horrendous when it counted (in the majors.) And he was not injured. i KNOW we look at the stats during the off season especially the last game he pitched and think that he can really make it to the rotation but i dont think he holds as much value during the winter meetings. I think we would need to give up Ajax, melancon or montero to have a shot at peavy. Then, we would have to sign him to a big contract extension because he doesnt want to come to the AL. Then, we kind of have to wonder why he doesnt want to come to the AL. In the end, if we couldnt give up our prospects for santana or haren, I dont think we will do it for peavy. But if we lose out on CC, cash may become anxious. He will cost us more than IPK as the biggest name though.
Manny, Damon and Nady would be a pretty atrocious outfield although Nady is probably league average or around that. And we could never bench matsui to play gardner in center. That is ridiculous considering matsui is making 13 million next season i believe and gardner is making nothing. Talk about a waste of resources. But inevitably, one of manny, damon or matsui would be injured and it would be irrelevant anyway. The worst part about our current lineup is that it is almost impossible to think that everyone will stay healthy next season. And a loss of even one of the big bats would really destroy our offensive production. Leaving the lineup as is and banking on comeback seasons from four of the nine players in the lineup while the other five stay healthy may be a recipe for disaster. But according to some, cashman knows exactly what he is doing so when he says our offense will be better than it was last year – i guess i have to believe him.
““We are trading a 30 yr old OF for a 38 yr old OF who hits for no power and is a small market player?”
Giles was arguably the best right fielder in baseball last year and one of the top 30 players in the entire game. And top 30 is conservative – closer to top 20.
People look at his “power numbers” and get all worked up but fail to do three things:
1. Think about how playing in Petco kills his HR.
2. How playing on that awful padre team gives him no RBI opportunities.
3. Fail to appreciate his on base skills.
Last time I checked Nady was nowhere close to a top 30 player and he is on the last year of his deal with Scot Borass as his agent.”
I just can’t stand adding more nearly 40 yr old player to the OF. This team needs to think long-term trading for a 38 yr old outfielder who has never wanted to come to NY is a mistake.
Dave- I think you’re right. However this deal does not have to include Phil/Ajax. I MIGHT be able to deal with giving up Betances or Romine. Peavy is a great pitcher and lets be honest CC/Wang/Peavy/Joba/Hughes would set us up in the rotation for years.
dave we assume he only has two offers and the Yankees can’t rationalize contending for a championship next year with out the CC upgrade.
“dave we assume he only has two offers and the Yankees can’t rationalize contending for a championship next year with out the CC upgrade.”
Its simple Yanks with CC= Strong division contender, Yanks without CC= possible contender/WC team at best.
“BS. Yankee fans have been booing Rodriguez since the day he got to NY. Mainly because they were afraid he’s steal Jeter’s light. I doubt that Rodriguez cares about Jeter’s “light”. Yankee fans can be as petty and “lowbrow” as any fans in baseball. They spent ten years tring toboo Mickey Mantle out oftown because he had the gall to replace DiMaggio. They finally did boo Roger Maris out of town for being as good as Mantle was at hitting home runs”
——————————————————
This is soooooooooooooooo true.
One only has to read this blog on a regular basis to see how hateful fans can be. How a fan with ZERO knowledge and experience can aboslutely bash Csshman, and somehow know THEY have the answers. When we Win, Yankee fans can be the best in the world. But many of the ‘fans’ I see here are really the bottom of the barrel. Some of the things posted about ARod are just shameful. A lot of people come here jump to dump their hatred.
But I guess NO registration attracts that crowd.
And as an aside…. is anybody bothered by the literacy here… or rather lack of it? Does anyone else find it hard to respct someones opinion when what they write is not even up to 6th grade literacy standards? Does anyone else fear a bit for our country, wondering if some of what we see here is an example of ‘American know-how’?
Would people respecy SJ and CB, or Pete Abe, if they wrote like morons?
Just because you are anonymous and hide behind the Internet, doesn’t mean the written word doesn’t count.
Language is how we communicate thoughts, emotions and ideas.
When you sh*t on our language, you sh*t on our country.
What’s worse is people who attack those who expect a modicum of decent grammar, use of paragraphs, etc. Often, they’re accused of being high brows.
I guess it’s easier than actually learning the language. The only exception I would make is for foreigners who might literally be learning the language. They have a right to contribute to forums.