Maddux joins Mussina in retirement
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 05, 2008 
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Turns out Mike Mussina is not the only smarty pants middle-aged white guy right-hander who is retiring this winter. Greg Maddux will call it quits at the Winter Meetings on Monday.
Maddux will be a Cooperstown slam dunk in five years (although given some of the nitwits who have BBWAA voting privileges, it wont be unanimous) as he sails off into the sunset with a record of 355-227 and an ERA of 3.16.
Between them, Moose and Maddux pitched in 1,280 games and threw 8,571 innings. That’s a lot of baseball history departing.
Funny you would post this, I was just thinking how Maddux retiring would negatively affect Moose’s chances of getting in on the first try.
Good for Gregg
I doubt Moose will get in on the first try, there’s always people who will complain about not getting 300 wins.
Well Moose is debatable as it is. But now there’s no way he gets in on the first try, not with Maddux on the ballot.
Moose deserves it though.
It’s weird, but I kinda miss da Moose.
Didn’t realize there was a new pond. Repost:
I…can’t…resist…your…powers…
At this point, I would go with AJ and Tex.
Wang and AJ would be my co-aces. (And yes, Wang is an ace)
Wang
AJ
Joba
Pettitte
Hughes
With AAA guys to fill in Aceves, Kennedy, et al.
Tex gives me consistent offense, great defense, and lineup flexibility. He’s young and he’s athletic.
CC is great, but he’s not worth that kind of money to me. I know it’s not my money, but I like my Wang good enough.
If CC comes to the Bronx, I’ll be a fan, but until then he can keep looking for hooks with worms on ‘em. If he doesn’t come, then we’ll take our big, fat juicy worm that’s been sitting there for 4 weeks and counting and divvy it up to some other fish.
As the wise Confucius once said, there’s plenty of fish in the pond.
Mel,
“As the wise Confucius once said, there’s plenty of fish in the pond.”
You make some very good points! But Confucius also said, “Not all fish taste the same, some good to eat, some not so good.”
Time for dinner!
Quickest game I ever saw was in Atlanta- Maddux v. The Big Unit. I think it lasted about 2 hrs and 15 or 2 hours and 20 minutes. I felt cheated.
It was depressing the past few years to watch the Mortal Maddux- those Atlanta years were amazing. If he isn’t a unanimous HOF inductee then there must be a handful of baseball writers mad from syphilis.
ok, reposted reply:
mel, I appreciate your reply and I respect your reasoned opinion. I wasn’t just asking to knock your reply, as you know that my opinion is contrary, it’s just good to get you on the record (again) in a concise and complete manner.
I think it’s reasonable to not find CC worth the investment. But I think the greatest flaw in your rotation is that it counts too much on Joba and Hughes. CC or no CC, I think Cashman wants to sign 2 FA pitchers plus Pettitte.
Hall of fame rules:
Electors can vote for from none to up to ten eligible players, and the player needs 75% to get in.
If this is true, what is the maximum amount of eligible players, that can be elected in a given year? It’s not ten.
yankee trader-
that would be a good question for Nate Silver.
Nate Silver was off on the margin in the Georgia Senate runoff and he may prove to be off on the Minnesote recount. He’s mortal!
I don’t know Nick, he may come within a handful of the final count in MN.
Some comedic relief? Check out StopGoodTV.com, maybe the devil has an answer for all this craziness with out rotation.
Sign Pettitte already Cashman!
At this point we could all come within a handful of the final count in MN, but which hand will be full??
That Greg Maddux, he was a pretty alright pitcher.
Where in the World is Brian Cashman now? En route to CC? Vegas? Disney Land? Madonna concert?
Signing Teixeira would give the Yankees a lineup of Damon, Jeter, Teixeira, A-Rod, Matsui, Swisher, Cano, Posada, Nady. That’s nuts.
If CC, Wang, Pettitte each get 33 starts and Joba gets 24, the Yankees could pretty much lose the other 39 games and still make the playoffs.
Wow, no.27, you are quite optimistic!
With Maddux gone, who is going to pitch for the Dodgers next season?
dave,
From the last thread. I said nothing of the # of years in the last thread.
I don’t want to get into an argument, knowing that we’re on opposite sides of the spectrum.
But let’s say that CC gets $140M/6 years and you can get AJ for $80M/5 years. The job of the starter is to go out there, keep the score down, and give your starters a chance. Whether it’s CC, AJ, Wang, or Joba. They’re all capable of doing such. With our bullpen, you don’t get bonus points for complete games and such things, so that stat doesn’t blow me away. You keep your team in the game and turn it over to the bullpen.
Let’s say that CC and AJ are on the same team and do essentially the same thing, give you 15-20 wins per year. 5 years come and go, AJ’s gone and CC’s got one more year. It’s like exercising a $60M option for year 6 of CC’s service. So yes, he gives you win shares and what not, but I see CC the way I see Wang, AJ, and Joba. All more than capable of getting you a win.
I would love to have CC, but I’m not gaga over him because he’s going to do essentially what Wang did for us the last 3 years.
A few things:
1. In spite of my ‘rah-rah’ disposition, I’m not a lemming.
2. People here know that banging on AJ only increases my stubborness.
3. I’m aware of the inherent risk of any pitcher, but especially AJ.
4. I think he’s turned a corner, and someone linked an article saying that Halladay did indeed help AJ do such.
5. I think the established market is 4 years for AJ. The only team that might go a 5th is Atlanta. I’d be fine with that, the Yankees would be fine with it, and the players would be fine with it because they wouldn’t have to face him.
6. I can’t quite pinpoint why, but I like AJ. It’s probably because he’s a rehabilitation project that we don’t have to rehabilitate. As SJ said earlier, the fish and the jays did that for us.
So, I respect your right to post your daily affirmations, but there are a few of us who wouldn’t mind having AJ on the team. I’ve gone long and deep into my reasons and I apologize in advance!
6.
I would just sign C.C.(160/7), Pettite (10/1 + another 6 in incentives), and Penny(2 MIL/ 1 yr, with another 3 mil in incentives). And trade for a goog UTIF such as Jeff Keppinger(Veras would definitely get the kob done, but I would try to get him for say Justin Christian and Steaven Jackson).
Then sit back and relax, except for a few Minor Signings.
Opening Day Roster:
SP C.C.
SP Wang
SP Joba
SP Pettite
SP Penny/Aceves/Kennedy/Wright
With Hughes at AAA for atleast all of April
Also start Cox at AAA until he proves he can’t handle it.
CP Rivera
SU Marte
SU Bruney
MRP Rameriz
MRP Robertson/(Veras if he’s not traded)
MRP Albaladejo/Jackson
LRP Geise
With Melancoln at AAA for atleast all of April.
Lineup:
LF Damon
SS Jeter
DH Matsui
3B A-Rod
-C Posada
2B Cano
RF Nady
1B Swisher
CF Gardner
Only a cople stars in that lineup, kinda similar to the Dynasty Lineup with only a few starts, but gritty guys like Swisher, Gardner, and Nady.
Bench:
-C Molina
1B Miranda
SS Keppinger
CF Melky/Baldeli
Easily the best bench we’ve had in years
Guarantee you Cash pays for CC’s buffet run and hes a Yankee by Sunday.
Im surprised Maddox retired. Nick must of not sent the memo that San Fran is looking to get younger. As Kenny would say Know when to hold em, know when to fold em.
I meant start Coke at AAA, not Cox
Arte Moreno, a guy with a lot of money, owns the Angels. They have said that signing Tex is their primary goal this winter.
The Yankees, who also have a lot of money, have made CC Sabathia their stated priority this offseason.
Let’s see, where do we think these players, who want lots of money, will end up?
“With Maddux gone, who is going to pitch for the Dodgers next season?”
With as cheap as the Dodgers ownership is. Assuming Manny signs,you might see him in the rotation to get their monies worth.
Nick,
I didn’t forget about you. I just had to catch my breath!
Thanks for the reply and yes, Joba and Hughes make for a flawed rotation, but hopefully not fatally flawed.
If Hughes is healthy, that’s half the battle and I think he’ll do fine. Albeit on a very limited basis.
Last season the Yankees won 15 games out of the 33 that Pettitte started. CC Sabathia’s teams won 22 of the games he started last year. In Wang’s last full season, the Yankees won 21 of the games he started. The Yankees won in 70% of Joba’s starts last year, so if he started 24 games, that would be 17 wins. That’s 75 wins. If the Yankees won half of the games started by Hughes, Aceves, and whoever else, there at 95 wins. That doesn’t take the much better offense into consideration.
No to Lowe. Please.
mel,
Im not sure what all the arguements were about but im 50% on your side. Im not going gaga over C.C.. Once again the Yankees are judged by what they do in the playoffs and C.C. has not had a good couple years their. Secondly, who knows what he will be like when he becomes the highest paid pitcher in the league. The pressure might get to him. Lets not forget the slooooooow start he had last April. If we get him fine. If not. Theres always other pitchers that havnt won in the playoffs to go after.
I do think Sheets would be a better investment than AJ. Half the years and just as high of an upside.
you tell em mel!
i prefer they get lowe, the steady choice but i enjoyed your passionate defense of your pick of aj.
“No to Lowe. Please.”
But he’s won in the playoffs. I would go 3 years on Lowe not the 5 hes looking for. Lowe has had a pretty good run in LA. He would make a good 3 or 4 in the rotation. Who knows maybe Wang can teach him some sinker stuff and vice versa.
Why is everyone talking about Perez and not Garland?
I would assume the date indicated in the new pics of Yankee stadium indicate when construction will be complete. The place looks great.
I think it would be an absolutely awesome addition for the Yankees to pick up Derek Lowe!
(wink, wink)
I don’t think saying that CC and AJ will do the same thing is fair. Even is AJ is able to be as healthy as CC through their contracts, he’s not nearly as dominant or consistent. Is the difference worth $60 million? Probably not.
What I think is worth it is that it’s not likely that AJ is as healthy as CC through their contracts. AJ also relies on his fastball more than CC, so as he gets older he’ll probably gets worse faster than CC. CC is also like 3 years younger than AJ, so he’ll be 34 at the end of a 6 year deal and AJ will be 36 at the end of a 5 year deal.
i think burnett was supposed to be that backup plan for cc but it seems he’s not gonna wait if he can get a 5th year elsewhere. i think cash would’ve passed on aj if the yanks got cc and burnett was still available. i think it was going to be one or the other of those two, plus lowe or someone further down the list for the back of the rotation.
Joe-
“Arte Moreno, a guy with a lot of money, owns the Angels. They have said that signing Tex is their primary goal this winter.
The Yankees, who also have a lot of money, have made CC Sabathia their stated priority this offseason.
Let’s see, where do we think these players, who want lots of money, will end up?”
Let’s see, Teixeira wants to be in the Northeast and Sabathia wants to be on the West Coast, so tell me where they will end up!!
Al-
“Guarantee you Cash pays for CC’s buffet run and hes a Yankee by Sunday.”
You might just be right, but I’m betting that Yankee won’t be CC!!!
Where was it said that Lowe is getting 90 million? Do you really think he’s going to get 90 million? Think about it, who’s his agent? He’s known for floating these huge, unreasonable numbers. Lowe will not get 90 million.
Like I said, if we sign Lowe it’s not to be our ace, #2 or #3 and he’s not getting a 90 million deal.
Ray-
“think it would be an absolutely awesome addition for the Yankees to pick up Derek Lowe! (wink, wink)”
Take Ray’s advice, everyone, and stay away from Lowe. Let the Red Sox have him.
Maddux is evidence why free agents should not be recruited, make visits like colleges with high school kids, etc. Didn’t the Yankees wine and dine him for a week or so and he took less money to go to the Braves? Anyone recall how much less?
It should be – here’s our offer – you want it or not. Every city has their nice suburbs for millionaires to live in. No need to make a visit.
wonder if he signed how different things would have been for the Yankees. Was Jimmy Key signed instead or did they have him first? Maybe Cone never signs. Maybe they have Maddux, Key AND Cone and Pettitte stays in Triple A in 95 or gets traded and Showalter stays as manager?
mel, I won’t try to talk you off your limb, but I will point out that, being realistically optimistic, Joba and Hughes are, together, basically one full season from one pitcher. The 5th starter isn’t skipped THAT much.
So even without CC and even hoping for full seasons from Wang, AJ, and Pettitte, the Yanks need another starter, whether he’s named Lowe, Sheets, Garland, or Mussina-at-gunpoint. And I’m not forgetting your ‘AAA guys to fill in’ comment, I just don’t take it as a serious option while counting on Joba and Hughes for so much.
.
Bad Scooter-
mlbtraderumors
Heyman’s Latest: Sabathia, Manny, Lowe
By Tim Dierkes [December 5 at 1:57pm CST]
Be sure to check out Jon Heyman’s Winter Meetings preview.
A friend of C.C. Sabathia tells Heyman the pitcher received two offers from unknown teams prior to Thanksgiving, in addition to the ones from the Brewers and Yankees. Sabathia is taking his time with this, as he should.
Manny Ramirez “admires the dollar.” Just letting you know.
A competing owner suggested to Heyman that the Cubs could cut budget. At any rate, they probably won’t do anything major til their ownership situation is settled.
Derek Lowe is looking for $90MM over five years. He wants at least five years; ten teams are after him. Brian Cashman apparently expressed “heavy interest” to Scott Boras yesterday.
As for the Hall of Fame question. If there are 360 Hall voters it takes 270 votes to get in. Since each voter can name ten individuals there could be up to 3,600 votes for ensrhrinement.
13 X 270 = 3,510 leaves 90 odd votes
So the maximum with that number is 13
If you like math equations if you make “X” the number of electors than the number of people who could get 75 % of the votes if each voter filled out ten names would be this:
10 X divided by .75 X. The “x”s cancel out and 10 divided by .75 equals 13.333
The number (13) would be the same with any other number of electors as long as there were at least 20 of them.
The poll is silly because it assumes all could be gotten with similar financial offers. That said, I prefer AJ to Lowe because of the potential for excellence, his youth and AJ’s record against AL East teams. I agree with those who feel that failing on AJ and CC should lead to the acquisition of Teixiera and perhaps another bat to add assets that can be strengthen the organization to trade for pitching
Celerino-
Maddux offered 34M/5 years by Yankees, took 28M/5 years to play for Braves, in 1993.
Thanks YT. So it’s not like the difference in CC’s offers – 40M is too much to leave on the table.
Yanqui Trader – Braves were becoming a perennial contender back then, while our boys were years away. At the time, it was a good move for him. Who’d have known they’d go 1 of 14 in post seasons from 1991? But that they MADE 14 post seasons says something. Still he did pretty darn good individually too.
To answer one of my own questions,
Maddux signs with Braves Dec. 9, 1992.
Key signs with Yanks Dec. 19, 1992
according to baseballreference.com transactions
Buy yeah, we sure coulda used him .. .who couldn’t have?
check that – Key Dec. 10 – the next day
Is Maddux really a smartypants white guy? He always seemed kinda… slow.
On Maddux circa 1992-93 off-season. My recollection is that Maddux got about $ 28.5 M guaranteed over 5 years and the Yankees were willing to guarantee about $ 35 M. I remember Gene Michael saying something like “Maddux at $ 28 is a bargain”. Maddux ended up earning enough in incentive to make his total for those five years just over $ 30 M.
Maddux is a crafty pitcher, but I’ve never seen him do a crossword puzzle in pen.
I think the glasses make him look smarter.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and predict the following:
Lowe will stay in the NL with Mets, Phillies or Braves. Boston doesn’t want him back.
Burnett wants to play closer to home[Baltimore] and is the first free agent the Yankees sign.
Teixeira also wants to play closer to home and signs with Yankees or Red Sox.
Sabathia is then signed by the Angels, who have enough pitching to trade for a hitter, or they also sign Manny if he doesn’t return to the Dodgers.
Sheets accepts arbitration and gets his 15M, then enters market when proven healthy.
Somebody gets a steal in Brad Penny.
Opinions??
Here’s hoping they congratulate each other in Cooperstown 5 years from now. Both seem like good people and fine representatives of MLB. Best of luck!
Nick-
“Maddux is a crafty pitcher, but I’ve never seen him do a crossword puzzle in pen.
I think the glasses make him look smarter.”
That’s terrible-I do crosswords in pen and wear glasses. Of course Maddux was doing the Atlanta papers crossword which has the answers at the bottom of the page. He’s also a scratch golfer, although not quite as good as Smoltz, whose considering entering the pro tour when finished with baseball!
If you need to pay the rent, spending money on a new clothes isn’t smart. Likewise, buying very expensive new players at positions when you have other priorities and are on a limited budget doesn’t get it done, either.
The Yankees desperately need pitching. This is not news. They are also looking to cut payroll. They are acknowledging they are on a budget. If one therefore exercises logic, they will use their funds on pitching. Buying a sexy new accessory, such as Mark Teixeira, will not give you a dependable starting pitcher every 5th day.
Similarly, the Angels need hitting. They have more than adequate pitching. They need hitting. Do they really need CC Sabathia to start, at a great salary, when they have very capable starters at much less? And no matter how much CC says he likes to hit, I don’t think he will be another Babe Ruth, or even Mark Teixeira.
We’ll see how things play out, but I think the two teams will put their resources where they feel they have the greatest need. No matter where a player wants to play, they went FA for a reason. The money. They will follow the money. They always follow the money. Just like almost everyone of us would do.
That wasn’t the crossword he was doing, that was the Jumble.
Trader- Looks pretty accurate but I want CC!!!
Chad Gaudin > Oilver Perez.
If Gaudin is really nontendered by the Cubs, Cashman should take a shot at him. He could catch a lighting in a bottle with him. Gaudin has the stuff to be a mid-rotation starter.
—-
that’s who i’m promoting for now until he’s resigned or signed with another club!
“Chad Gaudin > Oilver Perez.
If Gaudin is really nontendered by the Cubs, Cashman should take a shot at him. He could catch a lighting in a bottle with him. Gaudin has the stuff to be a mid-rotation starter.
——
that’s who i’m promoting for now until he’s resigned or signed with another club!”
Ed- I was with you on Garko but Gaudin is a marginal pitcher. He has decent stuff but has never put it together. I can’t give a rotation spot to a guy who has never been a full time starter.
Al,
before his first full season in the majors, he’s been up and down. He did okay during his first full season despite his 4.45 ERA. As for this season, his role wasn’t really permanent, hence the reason why he stunk this season.
before his first full season in the majors, he’s been up and down.
….which he wasn’t really given a chance then.
“before his first full season in the majors, he’s been up and down.
….which he wasn’t really given a chance then.”
Granted someone needs to give him a chance, it just shouldn’t be us. I don’t want Perez either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ltD21rYWVw
Thanks for letting me watch your career, Greg. See you in five years.
Like I said Yankee Trader, Boras always starts off with some unreasonable number for his clients. Lowe will not get 5 years 90 million. Not gonna happen.
“Sheets accepts arbitration and gets his 15M, then enters market when proven healthy.”
This seems like his best option. Go out and prove that you are healthy and then go for the big contract.
Maybe we can give that CC kid a chance. See how he can do on the big stage.
It’s a good plan for Sheets from your perspective… but someone will guarantee him at least two years and probably three at that number. Would you risk $ 30 M if you had his injury history? I sure wouldn’t and I doubt he will
“Maybe we can give that CC kid a chance. See how he can do on the big stage.”
I like this idea. I heard hes pretty good.
“Lowe will not get 5 years 90 million. Not gonna happen.”
some deseperate team will bite the bullet.
“Maybe we can give that CC kid a chance. See how he can do on the big stage.”
I’m all for giving him a chance. But he needs to want to take that chance. So far, the jury is out on his decision. We should know more next week.
some deseperate team will bite the bullet.
————————————————
Giants already made their mistake & no other team is that dumb.
I don’t think he’s meeting with Cashman to ask Cash for help in getting a good West Coast offer!
Then again, it could be anything and might not be a positive sign at all. I wish I could take a nap until this CC business is settled, but then I would miss the Cal football game tomorrow and several good tacos.
“A friend of C.C. Sabathia tells Heyman the pitcher received two offers from unknown teams prior to Thanksgiving, in addition to the ones from the Brewers and Yankees.”
And the infamous mystery teams have entered the ring. Doesn’t CC ‘s agent know that trick is reserved for Boras clients!
Isn’t CC going to the fight tomorrow?
Ed- Yes CC is going to the fight I would gather his meeting with Cash is before that.
Al,
or maybe Cashman should go with him and make his night worth while like free dinner and drinks.
I suspect Cashman is not only making a sales pitch; he’s also letting CC know just how much longer the Yankees offer will be on the table.
I also suspect (and hope) that all other Yankees offers come with an expiration date.
I think you are going to see a very restrained FA season because of the economic mess we’re in. SF specializes in assinine deals — Barry Zito comes to mind — and giving Renteria more than $ 9 M is almost as absurd, but it won’t jumpt start wild spending.
I was just thinking, what would happen if the Yankees stepped back. If the mega-rich Yankees decided no, they won’t be players at this time. My how asking prices would come down then! Not advocating it, but I wouldn’t mind seeing the collective apoplexy of agents if that happened.
Cashman should offer CC the Clemens family plan… let him go home to Cali between starts if he wants to.
And if that doesn’t work, offer him the Clemens family.
The key for Cashman is to get a feel about CC and what his true intentions are. Monitor his body language, notice how he answers questions and how attentive he is while Cash is talking. See if he answers questions and if he looks enthusiastic about coming here and see if he is serious about us or just using us.
Cashman should easily be able to tell how genuine is by talking face to face with him and seeing how responsive he is.
Cashman should just hook CC up to a lie detector. Then we will really know how Mr. Sabathia feels.
ENOUGH talk about Lowe.
Lowe pitches in a pitcher’s park in a pitcher’s league in a pitcher’s division. He’s on the wrong side of 35 and asking for big dollars and many years. I’m tired of guys who depend on the defense to record outs for them. I want guys who can step up in a big game and shut down the opposition. We’ll have enough talent all the way around to get to the playoffs without a ‘reliable innings eater’ like Lowe. The real question is what happens when we get there. Do you want Derek Lowe pitching Game 3 of a series or AJ Burnett? I can’t believe I even have to ask that question.
Yes the Yankees could have 3 power arms in Wang, CC and Chamberlain but the more power arms you have the more opportunities you have to win big games. Given our talent on offense and on the pitching staff, we can afford to gamble, especially with all these young arms on the way. If Burnett gets injured, so what? Hughes takes his place. If Ben Sheets needs TJS in a year or two? Big deal. Betances and Brackman are on the way.
If I’m the Yankees I gamble and I gamble hard. We can afford to not be so freakin conservative when investing in pitching. Conservative investments gave us bargains like Carl Pavano. He didn’t have ‘great stuff’ but he was reliable, a real sure-fire mid-rotation guy who would pitch 200 innings for us. Carlapalooza they called it. For what? A guy with a 92 MPH fastball and average sinker pitching for the Florida Marlins?
I’m sorry. Carl Pavano never had Burnett’s stuff and to compare him to Burnett is cheap. Stupid. Idiotic and cheap.
And now Lowe is touting his mediocre stuff and wanting to be paid like a front-end pitcher.
I would even prefer Oliver Perez to Lowe. I’m not really into paying guys for what they’ve done on every single investment. Eventually a GM or a Citigroup tanks. I’d rather get as many young pitchers with ‘electric stuff’ as I can and bank on their futures. When one pans out, you hit the jackpot.
And one more thing. If all these young pitchers of ours pan out and ultimately get blocked by CC/Wang/Burnett/Chamberlain/Hughes, that’s the best problem a baseball team could hope for.
Maybe we could actually trade some for ML ready position players of which we have ZERO
ray (sox fan)
December 5th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
I think it would be an absolutely awesome addition for the Yankees to pick up Derek Lowe! (wink, wink)
———————————————————–
There is a mole on this board.
You know what happens to spies, don’t you Ray (sox fan), if that’s your real name? They’re walking down a dark street one night, and. “WOOSH”, gone. Your body disappears and nobody even misses you.
============================================================
Evening, Ray. How’s things going with you and the (sox fan) family?
I’ve been reading all the posting from today as I was not near a computer all day……I agree with GB7, if I knew Pettite was returning, I would love the signing of Sabathia and Texeria….I do not see the need for three FA pitchers….I’ll take my chances with Joba & Hughes being the 4 & 5 guys at the back of the rotation….I’m looking 2 years down the road….I just hate to see the chance of missing out on getting a player like Texeria to hold down 1B for the next 6-7 years…..But as I stated last night, I’ve always been obsessed with AJ’S arm and K’s…..
Bret-
Just curious has Burnett ever pitched in the post season? How about Lowe? Hmmmm…..
Evening, PAt M. I’d really prefer using Aceves as the # 5 guy and let Hughes stay in Scranton for a couple of months and work on some of his pitches, and then bring him up to help Chamberlain keep his innings down to the 135-145 inning mark. Aceves really impressed me in the start against the Angels. He may never be great, but, he doesn’t scare, he’s got 4-5 pitches to play with, and he knows how to pitch. Even more, he’s not really restricted by innings counts.
I’m worried about fatigue with Aceves; did you see the picture of his new bride?
PAT M, trusting Joba and Hughes plus Aceves & friends at the back end is a little more palatable if you can sign CC and Tex, and I know you have advocated that and think it’s more possible than most of us, but… well, it just doesn’t seem all that likely.
How can they do that after all the talk about lowering payroll? I guess the theory would be that the move would pay for itself with multi-round playoff revenue, but… that’s an even bigger gamble than taking Ball St. and laying the points, and we know how that turned out.
If Pettitte and Mussina had gotten the 24 inch wide strike zone that Maddox and Glavine got for about 15 years, Mussina would have 300 wins, too and Pettitte would be close to what Mussina has now.
Hughes in Scranton works for me as well…..I just don’t want to be saddled with another aging rotation…..Sheets for 3 years is a better option than Lowe….I have watched him pitch in LA many times and he has become more reliable and seems to have put his nightlife to rest….That being said, he benefits from not only pitching in the NL, but the entire NL West are all pitchers parks…..Hell I rather get Peavy if he doesn’t cost too much in returning talent…And the way things are going for Towers he may be a salary dump soon…..SJ indicates that the club will not approach 200 mil in salary…..Let’s not forget the 30 mil that goes away next season with Damon and Matsui….That is more than 10 mil than what it’ll cost for Texeria….Bite the bullit for this season, and put in place that not only has a chance to win in October but rather a team that is favored to win…..They are openning a billion dollar palace, they better make for certain that the place isn’t dark in October….Maybe overkill in a way, but it’s better than the alternative of coming up short….I still say Texeria is on their short list next week……
Nick in SF
December 5th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
I’m worried about fatigue with Aceves; did you see the picture of his new bride?
———————————————————–
It could also work in reverse. Aceves may be so puffed up with pride by having her on his arm that he becomes Nolan Ryan with control and wins 30 games his first year.
GreenBeret7 December 5th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
If Pettitte and Mussina had gotten the 24 inch wide strike zone that Maddox and Glavine got for about 15 years, Mussina would have 300 wins, too and Pettitte would be close to what Mussina has now.
***
agreed. I can’t tell you how many times, I saw Moose get strikes called balls. And of course something bad happened after.
Pat, I love the thoughts of having Burnett in the rotation, too. But, it’s either or between him and Sabathia. With Pettitte gone at the end of the year, a rotation of Sabathia/Burnett, Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes and Aceves with maybe Kennedy being the floater. After that, from 2011 on, NYY needs to figure out the pitchers to start moving out. They have a lot of talent, and they could be moving fast. Finally, it’s a problem that the NYY and fans have been dreaming of….too many outstanding starters.
If Aceves wins 30 games, I’ll hand-deliver a case of Moose Bars to Jorge the LoHud blog poster and buy him a Negra Modello chaser.
PAT M, yes, Damon and Matsui will be coming off the books, but those slots won’t disappear into the ether, they’ll be replaced by… well, we don’t know, but I don’t think they will just be replaced by Ajax and some other cheapie.
jennifer
December 5th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
GreenBeret7 December 5th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
If Pettitte and Mussina had gotten the 24 inch wide strike zone that Maddox and Glavine got for about 15 years, Mussina would have 300 wins, too and Pettitte would be close to what Mussina has now.
agreed. I can’t tell you how many times, I saw Moose get strikes called balls. And of course something bad happened after.
————————————————————
I don’t know who or how that strike zone came into being with Maddux and Glavine, but, watching on TV, even Ernie Johnson and Skip Carey were shocked by the calls. They were getting 6 inches on both sides of the plate. Hitters had to chase or get called out. Maddux and Glavine were smart enough to exploit it.
Nick in SF
December 5th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
If Aceves wins 30 games, I’ll hand-deliver a case of Moose Bars to Jorge the LoHud blog poster and buy him a Negra Modello chaser.
PAT M, yes, Damon and Matsui will be coming off the books, but those slots won’t disappear into the ether, they’ll be replaced by… well, we don’t know, but I don’t think they will just be replaced by Ajax and some other cheapie.
———————————————————–
If Jorge eats a case of Moose Bars, he’s going to need more than a Negra Modello chaser to break things loose inside.
Hmmm, I’m not sure that’s a level it really needed to be taken to, GB. But who am I to judge?
Nick in SF
December 5th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
Hmmm, I’m not sure that’s a level it really needed to be taken to, GB. But who am I to judge?
———————————————————–
Understood…my medication just kicked in and I lose my inhabitions and everything is fair game.
Then I hope Pete Abe doesn’t post anything about Arod or Girardi right now, it could get ugly.
And on that note, I’m outa here!
Ah those NL umpires and their strike zone….It was common knowledge that the hitter was getting anything a few inches above the belt…But the pitcher was getting 3 ball lenghts on the outside and 2 on inside……Catfish Hunter was great at working the blue in his favor….The Catfish ( 5 straight 20 game winning seasons ) when ahead in the count would start working outside in….He start with 2 ball lenghts inch inch his way in until the blue finally gave in and established ” The Catfish’s strike zone ”…..He was brillant with the most incredible pinpoint control…..Munson would set up, and Hunter just about hit the mitt everytime……Nick in SF…….I just don’t want another medi-cal rotation…..Putfielders are desposible, Gold Glove Switch Hitting 1B man who hit .300 =+, 100 + rbi’s and hits 35-40 dingers are not….And he’s under 30…..
“I’m worried about fatigue with Aceves; did you see the picture of his new bride?”
LMAO.
Cash needs to go all out on CC. I think he should just show him a few pics from the new stadium that place looks phenomenal.
Why are the dodgers pushing for cano so badly when it is crystal clear, the yanks are committed to him, dont want to trade him and will aim for the sky if teams wants to talk trade. I read these comments in mlbtr about how kemp is soo much better. Maybe he is but maybe the perception of him is right now. Cano is coming off a big down year and kemp is coming off a big season with 35 steals and 18 homers. Of course, kemp looks better RIGHT NOW but in a year, who knows? Billingsley is the same deal – coming off a huge year so he looks far better than cano. I would never trade cano right now unless the offer bowls me over.
Are the sux serious? They actually think that this ridiculous conversation will get the yank’s panties in a bunch. it is beyond obvious the sox will not offer CC 150 mil to get him away from the yanks. Especially, with the constant expression of interest in Tex for the last month or so.
I have to say Derek Lowe MUST be dreaming – he wants 5 years and 90 million. That is beyond ridiculous. I wouldnt pay that to him if he was 30. He is pass his mid 30s already. He never made more than 10 mil in his prime. Why would he make almost 20 mil between the ages of 36 and 40. And he is coming out of the NL west trying to get back into the AL east. I heard he has changed since leaving boston but his last year in boston he had a 5.5 era. His 3.5 average the last couple of seasons could easily turn into 4.5 on the yanks or sux. hMM, Do we know any 200 innings pitchers who pitch to around 4.5 eras and play for the yankees? PETTITTE maybe – and the yanks didnt even want to risk giving him 1 year at 16 mil to try to get draft picks. Why is Lowe so much better that he deserves 5. Cash prolly offered Lowe 3 years in that meeting with Scotty B in his “expression of heavy interest.” To me, even 3 is pushing it to a 36 year old.
Giambi wants 3 years – YEA RIGHT! He was good last season but not good enough to forget the rest of his years on the yanks.
If bedard is in the rule 5, shoudnt teams be somewhat interested like the yanks. Even if he is coming back midseason – he could be a big boost if healthy.
It seems the yanks will have to give burnett five years and at least 15+ million to get him to the bronx. Thas alot for a pitcher who has made 10 trips to the dl dont ya think? I mean logically one would assume 10 dl trips in 10 seasons – what are the chances he stays healthy for 5 seasons in which he is already past the age of 30? I like Burnett – with a little more control, he could be the best number 3 starter in baseball. He proved he could hold his own in the AL east. But five years for a guy that only seems to stay healthy and pitch well in his walk years is far too much. Would Aj give the yanks a discount over the braves because he would be closer to baltimore where he lives? I also think AJ is worth more to the braves in the NL east than he is to the yanks in the AL east. He would be higher than their number 3 starter so more demand would be placed on him and he would have an era possibly a full run lower.I am still in the sheets camp – 2 years for 30 mil with a team option for another 15 mil should get it done – worst case scenario – he only pitches 100 innings per season (the lowest of his career.) I dont see him pulling a pavano – he seems far more willing to pitch through pain and minor injuries. Thas why he has never pitched less than 100 innings in a season even though he made 6 trips to the dl in his career.
Just curious about one thing regarding signing bats, whether Dunn, Manny, Tex or whomever. If the Yankees rationalized re-signing A-Rod to a 10-year contract because at the tail end of that contract he would be chasing the home run record, didn’t they then also commit to having a line-up that can bash so that A-Rod will see pitches he can hit? I’m not advocating anything, just curious about how the idea of A-Rod setting a new home run record works into the Yankees roster strategy.
“I’m worried about fatigue with Aceves; did you see the picture of his new bride?”
LOL, burned!!
Why can Nick make a crude sexist comment about Aceves’ bride, but I can’t say anything bad about a person who turned out to be Elisha Cuthbert (who the heck is that?!?).
That’s sexism right there.
GB,
What kind of meds do you actually take?
What do you guys think will happen to the players that didnt make the 40 man in the rule 5? I think it was Cox, Whelan, Horne and Kroenke. Will they get picked up. I think they may all be goners or at least 2 or 3 of them. I really wanted to see what Cox and horne would give us in the end – especially Cox who has been getting scot shields comparisons for years and is finally in triple A although he wasnt great in scranton. Whelan was the other big piece outside of sanchez in the sheff trade and gives up far too many walks. Horne completely regressed last season so he may be safer even though he was a top prospects last year at this time. Feels like ive been hearing and reading about cox and horne for ages – it would be really nice to see them make it to yankee stadium.
tb,
I dont think the yanks really think about the roster in terms of arod getting more homeruns. At least, i HOPE they dont. They would possibly be making a little more revenue but this is NOT san fran – the yanks sell out whether arod is chasing bonds or not. Besides, I doubt the yanks are excited to give him 5 mil or whatever it is for every single milestone he reaches beyond the 25 mil he makes each season on average. The yanks and the FO specifically are thinking about what is the best roster we can put up to win with the money and FAs we have available. They are probably not giving one second of thought to arod or the homerun record when deciding on forming the roster.
Why is no one talking about the 2 offers that CC has received in addition to the ones from the Yankees and the Brewers?
Do they exist? Who are the mysterious teams? Why hasn’t this been leaked before today?
If I had to guess, I’d say Dodgers and Giants.
Mel,
Elisha Cutthbert is the girl in that movie – The Girl Next Door. It is pretty good. She was also in a bunch of other less known movies and was on the cover of maxim not too long ago. She is a very good looking girl.
So why is it okay for you to refer to Maddux as a “white guy”. Have you ever referred to Edwin Jackson as a young “black guy” or Doc Gooden as such? That’s absolute hypocrisy on your part. I suppose you’re just another “fat guy” aren’t you?
dave,
lol. Thanks. I got “educated” about her yesterday. I’ll go look her up now. BRB with my report card. I have very high standards.
i dont think any teams offered more than the yanks 6 years and 140 mil. Those offers are probably for somewhere in between 100 and 140 if they even exist. I cant imagine that CC would get multiple offers for a contract on the table and none of the media would even know which teams they are. That is an extremely tight ship – it is so tight it is almost not believable. Dodgers and Giants are the best guesses. i REALLY doubt it was the angels. Teixera is really clogging the works here because CC is waiting for him and Lowe is waiting for CC. I havent even really heard contract offers on the table for Tex – just rumors of them. I dont think there is anyway in hell we get Tex and CC at this point considering, we could take tex away from the angels and they could take cc away from us and neither of our needs would be filled. But if Tex signs somewhere outside of LA we may have a hard time getting CC at all. We dont get CC and our rotation kind of falls apart as everyone would move up a spot and cash would be forced to give Lowe and burnett outrageous contracts that they dont deserve and will never live up to out of desperation. That is the worst case scenario for us – SIGNING both burnett and lowe to five year deals. That would also make our rotation older having two starter over 35 and more injury prone. Lets hope Tex signs with the angels and CC signs with us and then, we sign one of Sheets, Burnett and Lowe and i WOULD take them in that order if they want a 2, 4 and 4 year contract respectively. Burnett doesnt deserve 4 but lOWE deserves it even less. i wouldnt sign Burnett or Lowe for 5 because that is just asking for trouble and rumors are that is what they BOTH want. How lowe thinks he is worth 5 years at 15 mil per and beyond me. He must live in some dreamworld or know he will totally rip some team off – he will be 36 to 40 within that timeframe.
GB,
There is an never will be such a thing as too many good pitchers. Pitchers get ineffective and inconsistent from year to year and break down easily. No matter how many pitchers we start the season with, we will probably exhaust all our options by the end of the season every season. With that in mind, signing two starters this off season is critical to the development of hughes and IPK. Bringing them up and guaranteeing them a rotation spot was a HUGE mistake our of spring training last season and I think cash has learned his lesson. Thus, the focus on pitching this off season even though we lost abreu and giambi and many of our games were lost due to offense last year. Signing two free agents who can pitch a full season gives IPK and hughes to get back to the minors and come up when the need arises. Then, there is also Coke, Aceves, Geise and others just in case IPK and hughes arent ready or the injuries happen too early. This makes our rotation better and our backup rotation better as well. And pitchers get injured every single season so we need backups. Pettitte goes down in june and no problem, hughes comes up. Wang’s injury from last year acts up (god forbid) no problem we slide in IPK. This is why we NEED two free agent pitching signings and not one. Burnett def couldnt be our only signing because he is such an injury risk himself.
dave,
She looks like a lovely girl. Like the girl next door. Literally. Does she have a nice body or is she a good actress because nothing really stands out. (except her nose).
Looking at her photo galleries, she looks a little like Clare Danes, Debbie Harry, and Courtney Love. If those 4 had a beauty contest Debbie Harry (then, not now) would win, followed by Clare Danes, with Elisha just edging out Courtney Love for 2nd runner up.
She does look like a lovely girl and has a down to earth quality that’s quite appealing.
mel-
You think Courtney Love is good looking? Ay yayyay.
Buddy,
Uhh..no…that’s my point!
Ms. Cuthbert actually looks more like Kristen Johnson from 3rd Rock from the Sun.
She has a pretty great body and a good enough face. Look at her maxim pics and you can see why she is considered so attractive i think. She may be a little overrated because of the role she played in the girl next door – she was playing a pornstar that moved into a suburban neighborhood next to this studious kid who never did anything crazy in his life and she falls for him. Id say she is better looking than the above list – claire danes is the closest though. Not a big fan of courtney Love. I think you hit the nail on the head with the down to earth, girl next door type look. She just looks fun, nice and very chill to me – i dunno if thats how everyone feels. She was in this movie (i dont remember the name) where she acts like a complete B#$tch to this supposedly def girl and it was very weird seeing her play a role like that. It was a very strange and creepy movie. i would recommend it but the girl next door was really good. I would def recommend that one.
Nah, I think elisha is way better looking then the girl from third rock. Way better body and nicer face.
I am curious if dave can write a 7 page term paper on who is better looking between Courtney vs Elisha vs Claire vs Debbie.
I spoke too late.
Buddy,
He can, but there’d be a introduction titled “The Perils of A.J. Burnett: Buyer Beware!”
And, dave, I wasn’t complimenting her by saying she looks like Kristin Johnson. haha.
Okay, enough about that.
Back to baseball.
Who wins the fight? (De la Hoya)
Who wins the SEC championship? (Florida)
Mel- You got it all wrong. Elisha is top 5 for me
Al,
what you doing home on a friday night?
Isn’t in Sat AM for you East coasters?
“Isn’t in Sat AM for you East coasters?”
affirmative. althought I’m not suppose to be home now, but my stomach wasn’t feeling well so here I am.
“Al,
what you doing home on a friday night?”
Ed- I never said I had an active social life. Went out for dinner but now I can’t sleep
“affirmative. althought I’m not suppose to be home now, but my stomach wasn’t feeling well so here I am.”
Same here dude. I got some acid indigestion from some sick nachos.
Al,
I was suppose to be at a birthday party, so now my best friend is mad that i ditch out at the last mintue.
“Al,
I was suppose to be at a birthday party, so now my best friend is mad that i ditch out at the last mintue.
”
Sry bout that man. I’m out for the night now. Need to catch up on my Zzzz. Be back in the afternoon. Cash get it done!!!
mel
December 6th, 2008 at 12:48 am
If those 4 had a beauty contest Debbie Harry (then, not now) would win, followed by Clare Danes, with Elisha just edging out Courtney Love for 2nd runner up.
————————————————————
Well, Deborah Harry was a Playboy Bunny, so she has that going for her. That’s always a great way to hook any guy.
Buddy,
Come on man. That was hardly 7 pages. Although I probably could do it – haha. But id rather write about the yanks of course.
I keep hearing Lowe wants to wait for CC to sign but is every single starting pitcher waiting for CC? If not, I would try to pick up the starter I want second most now – obviously for me, it would be sheets which would prolly be the easiest signing to make before CC signs (they have to wait for an arb decision but they can put the offer out there.) But even if it is burnett, id try to sign him without even thinking about what CC will do. Because if CC signs elsewhere the dominos will start falling fast and missing out on all the top four starters would be a disaster. MAYBE i will change my mind in a couple of hours after thinking this through because I just thought of this but it seems like signing a starter ASAP is the best play right now (especially because it seems clear CC is now waiting to see if he can sign with the angels.)
Signing Lowe would be a step backwards – ain’t gonna happen.
CC/Wang/Pettitte/Hughes/Joba works just fine – keeps with the “give the young’uns a chance” in Hughes – Joba’s already proven himself on the big stage – Wang is The Man and should be pinch-pitched for when interleague starts (!) – two lefties in the rotation would hearken back to the days of yore success in the mid-to-late ’90′s.
Something’s got to happen soon – the same shiza’s been posted here for the last month and this lurker is getting real bored…
5 years for lowe or burnett is crazy & the problem with mel’s rotation is the alignment.
joba should be the 5th starter & acevez,coke,hughes,kennedy need to be used as debth,not relied upon as any of the 5 unless they prove themselves.
if a few of our starters get hurt & hughes & acevez are already in the rotation & kennedy & coke are not effective what do you do??
relying on one of hughes,acevez,coke,kennedy for the 5th spot is possible but we saw how using two before they proved themselves panned out.
it is much harder to manipulate joba’s innings if he is used as the 3rd or 4th starter.
i would love to get lowe.i think he might be the perfect fit but 5 years at his age is crazy.4 yrs/56 million would br perfect,sheets 2 yrs/26-28 million,burnett 4 yrs 60 million.
S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers
December 5th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Cashman should just hook CC up to a lie detector. Then we will really know how Mr. Sabathia feels.
————————————————————
why not electric shock treatment.
cash isn’t stupid.he wan’ts to see how much cc want’s to plasy in ny.
Elisha Cutthbert is sweet.
she also played in the house of wax.
The coo shiza ends soon and the Yankee roster will be shaped. Patience is a virtue.
why not trade matsui,damon & sign tex,cc & another pitcher.
payroll will still be at 180 million after these moves.
the only problem is trading matsui & losing our leadoff man but we can trade for a cf and or leadoff man.
if we eat a couple of million i think we can trade matsui.
payroll at 145 now,subtract 26 million for damon & matsui= 119 million,23 for cc,22 for tex,15 million for another pitcher,eat 5 million on matsui = 184 million dollars.
now we have tex,cc & one of lowe/pettitte/burnett/sheets.
matsui for one year 8 million dollars isn’t bad???
then we can look into trading for a cf.
There is virtually no market for Matsui for two reasons;
He’s coming off yet another knee surjury, he cannot play the field. He has a full no trade clause. So you just can’t trade him.
Damon has a limited no trade clause; a little easier to trade but you also lose your lead-off guy and potential starting CF if Melky, Gardner do not pan out.
i think cc is waiting for a team to come reasonably close.
if no team comes close he will be a yankee.
he will take a discount but not 40 million imo unless he is a different breed.
i think another team will at least have to offer 120 million for him to accept.
i do not think cc is needed.this is proven every yeart.
as long as we have a solid staff that is good enough.
wang,burnett,sheets/lowe,pettitte,joba with coke,acevez,hughes,kennedy should do it.
any one of them will go toe to toe with any pitcher in baseball.
the yankees hung in there in 08 with all kinds of pitching problems.
the yankees hung in there in 08 with all kinds of pitching problems….
they also hung in there with all sorts of hitting problems.If it wasn’t for the garbage years from key players, they’d have been in the playoffs. Their SP was adequate enough to make the playoffs, their BP was for the most part excellent.
Why would anyone trade Damon? You guys give Damon less credit than he deserves. He can actually lead off, and he has speed. With Abreu gone how many guys on this team can run…..Damon, Gardner & Arod every now and then……given gardner not being guaranteed a spot, or being able to hit when he DOES play…..Damon is just about the only guy that can fluster pitchers while on the basepaths.
yankee21
the ntc is not a problem with damon or matsui.they would both take a trade.it is well known.
i know matsui will be hard to trade but you don’t think an al team will take him as a dh for 8 million a year if we eat 5 million & he can play some outfield.
all the planets would have to align & that is unlikely i know but if we could pull it off it would be sweet.
then maybe trade for a cf or leadoff man.
it may be well known, but it is not a foregone conclusion both of these guys will take a trade. Think of the market, each of these guys come with $13m price tags, are in their mid-30s and in Matsui’s case, with bum knees.
Aside from that when healthy, Matsui still is a solid run-producer and one hell of a professional. He is more important to the Yankees than 90% of the other teams out there.
Again, Damon was arguably the only starting position player last year that performed at or above expectations. He is in a contract year, will be amply motivated, and is a gamer. I want to keep him and the Yankees need him at lead off.
Corey :
i don’t disagree but damon is gone after 09 anyways & if i can replace damon with tex i do it.
i know the leadoff spot would be a problem but if i can sign cc,tex & burnett,trade damon,matsui & have payroll at 185 million wich it would be if cc gets 23,tex get’s 22 & burnett get’s 15 million a year.actually it would be 179 million & if tex will take 20 million a year payroll will be 177 million leaving some money to get a leadoff/cf.
the yankees have only one more year of damon & then bye bye.
i don’t see it being possible to sign tex,cc & another pitcher,trading damon & matsui anyways but if i could i would.
move swisher to left field,nady in rf,tex at fb & try to get a temporary leadoff man.
Rosenthal on the impact the Wall Street mess is having on the Yankee planning.
http://msn.foxsports.com/other.....he-Yankees
Pete – Any truth to these implications? Any more details you can add?
the yankees won’t try for cc & tex because of payroll.
the red sox have the same problem if they wan’t to move lowell but you still hear the possibility of them getting tex & moving youk to 3rd base.
i believe that if they wan’t to they can get it done even if they wait till st or shortly after.
just a crazy idea that’s all.
i’m not saying it is a good idea but getting cc,tex & another good pitcher while having payroll at 177-179 million sounds good at least on paper with maybe a little money to get a leadoff man that is a cf.
i think the yankees took into consideration that no matter what they have 2 picks from last years draft that they can’t lose no matter what.
whatever they do with fa affects the next draft.
how can burress shoot himself by accident,lose his job,go to jail?
wouldn’t it be more productive to have him keep his job,pay taxes,speek to people about the dangers,donate money?
i know technically he broke the law but he hurt only himself & there was no bad intent.
politicians,ceo’s & many other people break the law,steal money & nothing happens.
this country has to stop warehousing inmates.
if he shot someone else by accident then i would understand but i think it would be better for him to be punished in other ways.
it was funny on wfan this morning they were talking about him being a flight risk.for shooting himself by accident?lol.
Mel – Sexism is believing that women are either physically, intellectually or emotionally inferior to men, the way racism is believing that ‘this race’ is either physically, intellectually or emotionally inferior to caucasions.
Sexism has nothing to do with nothing, and certainly nothing to do with men enjoying women because they are pretty.
Elisha Cutthbert gained noteriety as Jack’s daughter in the first year of (the awesome TV show) ’24′.
The 2008 Yankees were not far out of the playoffs in spite of losing Wang and Posada early. Giambi mostly hitting into the shift and poor defense at 1st base, no production from Cano until late in the season, needing as many starts out of Ponson and Rasner, and A-Rod’s head elsewhere were among contributors.
Not all of the above can go wrong next season but Girardi should have learned some things about the team.
The Yankees did hold the season’s edge on both Tampa Bay and Boston and they both realize they won’t be seeing the same Yankee team in 2009.
It’s time to tweak the team for the new season.
Keith
i agree but one never knows how much offense is needed or how much production players will produce.
every year is different.
how good will becket,lester,dice be?
i believe we need at least 3 solid pitchers,a few in the 3.5 range & a solid 4th,5th pitcher & pitching debth.
hughes,kennedy,acevez,coke as debth is great.i also think the yankees need better obp from cf.
as long as we have good pitching,defense & good obp players we will be fine.
the red sox target players with high obp & pitching & that is what the yankees need to do.
why not trade cano for kemp?
we get a good young player to replace cano,the same production,we fix cf & then trade austin jackson,kennedy & another player for an infielder.
we fix cf now without waiting.
Keith you neglected to add;
virutally no production from C and CF, and Jeter having a lousy year.
I agree Arod and Giambi were pathetic in key game changing situations virtually the whole year. The loss of Matsui and Posada to overcome Arods and Giambi’s lack of performance cannot be overstated.
I believe Wang was lost in mid-June, not really early. Then when Joba went on the shelf these were developments that the Yankees could not overcome even if the Offense had been respectable-which it definitely wasn’t.
Just read this on rotoworld:
*An unnamed baseball official told the New York Daily News that he believes the Giants and Angels are not among the four teams who have offered a contract to CC Sabathia.
The official said the idea of the Giants making a run at Sabathia is “unrealistic.” “Nothing’s changed with CC,” the official added. “I’m still convinced there are only two offers. I don’t believe the Angels were ever in it. This guy is going to have to make a decision soon.” Only the Yankees and Brewers have a definite deal on the table.
bru,
That rotation was order of strength. The blog’s already decided Joba will be the 5th pitcher.
Patrick,
Thanks for that. So does the official know or not? Sounds like he doesn’t know anything. He says he doesn’t think the Giants and the Angels are among the four. And in the next breath he says, “I’m still convinced there are only 2 offers”. So what he really should’ve said is that he doesn’t think the Angels or the Giants are the two of the teams that have already put up an offer.
Ken Davidoff says the Brews may add a year to their offer but it would still fall about 30 mil short of the Yanks offer.
http://tinyurl.com/6mccdm
Who cares what the Brewers “may do”, it doesn’t mean squat so why does Rosenthal even report it.
It only matters what the Brewers do. At this point, at least with regard to CC, they are irrelevant.
Is Orlando Hudson a viable CF option ?
“Is Orlando Hudson a viable CF option ?”
No.
A common sense take on CC from a Northern California perspective….I would not bet against it. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....rss.giants
Patrick December 6th, 2008 at 11:35 am
“Is Orlando Hudson a viable CF option ?”
No.
—————————————————
Did anyone think Robin Yount could switch from SS to CF?
He also won an MVP at SS before they moved him.
“Why can Nick make a crude sexist comment about Aceves’ bride, but I can’t say anything bad about a person who turned out to be Elisha Cuthbert (who the heck is that?!?).
That’s sexism right there.”
mel, I’m shocked! I wrote of the natural love between a husband and wife, whereas you evoked a cruel (and crude!) double standard between the dating habits of the sexes.
Go California Golden Bears!
Hudson missed the last month of 2007 with lorn ligaments in his left thumb. In 2008, he had surgery to repair a displaced bone in his left wrist and another surgery to repair torn ligaments in his left thumb, again. He seems to be more and more injury prone. Freak injuries maybe, but, that’s the arguement that people like to use on players that fans like to use to get rid of players they don’t like.
Wrist surgery, two thumb surgeries? Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen with his offense.
Well, that 4th line from the bottom sure was a disaster.
Haha, Nick. You are so easy to rile up! I still say that young ladies should adhere to a higher standard. I certainly wouldn’t want my own daughters to have such a reputation.
Who should I be cheering for today Arizona or ASU? I get them mixed up. I want to cheer for the result that’s going to send a pac-10 team to the Hawaii Bowl.
“A common sense take on CC from a Northern California perspective….I would not bet against it.”
Common sense? You really think CC will walk away from 40 million? That article is absurd.
It is troubling to read that Cashman would even think about trading Cano. Were Torre and his gang to pull off such a heist, it would rank as one of the worst trades ever.
“If” the stories we hear about his off-season progress ring true, this could be a big time breakout year for him. Since I have little confidence that Posada and Matsui will both remain healthy and recapture their batting skills, a big year from Cano is a necessity.
Cano for Kershaw is quite interesting though.
Timmy,
Yes, it is quite possible. Don’t be so dogmatic and impose your standards on everyone else. If you review CC’s background, his family life, values, etc, I would not bet against it. In fact and even assuming SF is not a player, I would not dismiss the possibility that he returns to Milwaukee where he developed friendships, enjoyed the atmosphere etc. CC is not Manny.
It may surprise you, but not everyone is mesmorized by NY and/or the dollar bill. As has been written ad nauseum, CC and his family can do very well on 100mm and still be ripe for a second bite at the apple in five years….and be happy to boot.
IMO, it’s 50 – 50 (before the meeting between CC and Cashman)
I wouldn’t worry too much about Cano. He’s learning the valuable lesson that you have to work at your craft. He’s doing it the hard way, but he’s on the right track. Look at Andruw Jones and Miguel Cabrera. Lots of talent, but it doesn’t do much good if you’re out of shape. (not saying Cano’s out of shape).
I like Bruce Jenkins, but sometimes he gets lost in a goofy and inconsistent sense of how athletes should conduct their lives. No offense, Ariel, but I don’t think expecting CC to leave $30-40 million on the table is common sense. I would bet against it.
mel, we’ve already established that your ‘higher standard’ has little to do with this situation, the particulars of which you were ignorant when you made your original remark. No backsliding!
You should cheer for the ASU Sun Devils, they have to win for a Pac-10 team to be eligible for the Hawaii Bowl. If that happens, the Arizona Wildcats would probably be that team and ASU would go to the Las Vegas Bowl. If Arizona wins (and I suspect they will), no bowl at all for ASU and no Pac-10 team for Hawaii. As I understand it.
Buddy Biancalana
December 6th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Cano for Kershaw is quite interesting though.
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It’s not likely that any team is going to give up a fireballing 20 year old left hander for a bat. Only the Yankees of the 70s and 80s did that (just not successfully). I’d say that those chances are about the same as the Giants sending Lincecum to the Yanks for Cabrera.
Buddy B,
Kershaw, is the jewel of the Dodgers’ system…there is no way Colletti will trade him.
This is the same Bruce Jenkins, I should ad, who has at times waxed poetically about the magic and magesty of the Big Apple and the joy and honor if playing on the sport’s biggest stages.
Mel,
I would concur. Cano appears to have learned his lesson last year.
Nick,
As has been written extensively over the past few weeks, it’s not really 30 – 40 mm within the context of a financial analysis that takes into account length, cost of living, present value of the contract, etc. CC’s people most certainly have performed an in-depth study of the financial considerations and advised him accordingly.
Cano for Kershaw is quite interesting though.
* * * * * * * *
It is provided there’s a 2nd base plan. Cody Ransom is the only plan right now unless Cashman worked a deal for a 2nd baseman next week.
Bottom line : Not likely to happen.
Colletti isn’t the greatest of baseball minds, so nothing he does would surprise me.
Ariel, how can you conduct an analytical comparison between an actual offer and a mythical one?
Hudson would signed to play 2nd in place of Cano.
*be*
Buddy,
“Colletti isn’t the greatest of baseball minds, so nothing he does would surprise me.”
__________
That indeed is a given.
I wonder if that deal has been proposed by C Money?
Buddy Biancalana
December 6th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Hudson would signed to play 2nd in place of Cano.
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After 2 ligament surgeries in two years on the same thumb abd a broken wrist on the same hand/arm, his offense could take a huge hit.
Nick,
The comparison which received quite a bit of ink 2 weeks ago or so was with the Brewers’ proposal which was then thought to be 5yrs and 100mm.
What makes anyone think a Giants’ offer for CC would “only” be 40M less than the Yanks’? What if the “best” they can offer, given their already existing financial obligations, is, say, 5 years/80M? Does CC leave 60M on the table? And if that package includes deferred money, so that the real amount in 2008 dollars is about 70M, does CC leave 70M on the table?
Buddy B.,
The Yankees certainly have enough players who frequent the DL.
Furcal turned down a multi-year deal with the A’s…
Ariel/GB7-
Agreed, though I may still take a shot.
As to CC, it’s all speculation. Hopefully there will be some visibility after this weekend.
Joe, it could be 5/70, or 5/60!! Who really knows at this juncture. At some point the “differential” crosses CC’s “line” which may not be your line, which may not be my line, etc.
Yes, Ariel, but we’re talking about CC choosing the Giants over the Yankees, aren’t we? Ok, I’ll concede, if the Giants offer 100mm for 5 years, that isn’t 30-40mm less than the Yanks’ offer of 140mm for 6 years. But we don’t know the particulars of this pretend Giants offer, so the rest of the comparison is invalid.
Anyway, I’d be happy to wager a case of Moose Bars with you that, if CC ends up with either the Giants or the Yankees, it will be the Yankees? Deal?
I hope CC has fun at the De La Hoya Vs Pacquiao fight tonight.
mel
December 6th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Furcal turned down a multi-year deal with the A’s…
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I fail to see the desire to have Furcal on a team unless they are desperate. He’s a brutally bad defensive player. He has that big, long swing that Pedroia has, and as he ages, it’s going to kill any offensive benefits that he might have.
That’s very true, Ariel. My only point is that the greater the difference between the Yankees’ offer and any other, the more likely that the lure of being close to home gets dimmer and dimmer.
In fairness to the Yanks, Brewers, and whomever else, CC does need to make a decision soon, so that people can get on with making their plans.
S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers
December 6th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
I hope CC has fun at the De La Hoya Vs Pacquiao fight tonight
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My prediction on that fight is that Sabathia replaces the injured Pacquiao (after sabathia accidently steps on his foot, breaking 6 bones) and then takes the fight on a TKO by leaning on De La Hoya for 7 rounds, wearing down De La Hoya down to a puddle of sweat.
Army-Navy game anyone watching? I really like the Army uniforms. Camouflage helmets and pants. Is this new?
S.A.: Army should go with the full camo; they’re bad.
S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers
December 6th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Army-Navy game anyone watching? I really like the Army uniforms. Camouflage helmets and pants. Is this new?
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Maybe to honor the military personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan, and because tomoorow is December 7th.
My prediction on that fight is that Sabathia replaces the injured Pacquiao (after sabathia accidently steps on his foot, breaking 6 bones) and then takes the fight on a TKO by leaning on De La Hoya for 7 rounds, wearing down De La Hoya down to a puddle of sweat.
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Hahahahahahaha
Also, with the possible lawsuit that Pacquiao will probably throw at CC after our big friend broke numerous bones in Pacquiao’s foot, Mr. Sabathia will quickly accept the Yankees offer soon after with the realization he will need lotsa money.
All part of the plan
I knew something wasn’t quite right, Nick.
Invoking pot/kettle law, what you said about Aceves’ bride was quite crude!
OldYanksFan,
I think that nowadays a sexist remark can include ones that objectify women as sex objects.
It goes on all the time here and bothers me not a bit, even though I’m a prude. What does bother me is the pot calling me out!
Nick in SF
December 6th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
S.A.: Army should go with the full camo; they’re bad.
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It would take them two hours to put on their Mary Kay to get ready for the game.
Some good ideas in this Jay Jaffe piece.
http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=8343
Nick,
As I said, IMO, it’s 50 – 50 as to the Yankees vis-a-vis any other team, since if he doesn’t sign with the Yankees, I don’t care where he goes, though preferably to the NL. As noted by others, the Giants may not make an offer, and it may be below CC’s “line” from the getgo. I would not, however, dismiss the Brewers.
I don’t know what CC is thinking at the moment but IMO the passage of time lessens the likelihood of CC wearing Pinstripes….as I have stated, it’s 50 -50, as I write, but that may well change after the meeting with Cashman.
As a lifelong Yankee fan who is typically adorned in a Yankee jersey each and everyday, I would not and could not bet against the Yankees, even in good sport. Mickey would never forgive me. So as inviting as your Moose Bar challenge is, I must respectfully decline.
However, I would be certainly willing to accept that challege were the subject matter to be next year’s USC-Cal game.
S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers
December 6th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
My prediction on that fight is that Sabathia replaces the injured Pacquiao (after sabathia accidently steps on his foot, breaking 6 bones) and then takes the fight on a TKO by leaning on De La Hoya for 7 rounds, wearing down De La Hoya down to a puddle of sweat.
——————————————————————————————Hahahahahahaha
Also, with the possible lawsuit that Pacquiao will probably throw at CC after our big friend broke numerous bones in Pacquiao’s foot, Mr. Sabathia will quickly accept the Yankees offer soon after with the realization he will need lotsa money.
All part of the plan
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Who says that Cashman is stupid? He takes advantage of everything.
Maybe to honor the military personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan, and because tomoorow is December 7th.
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That’s right! Maybe.
Well, Army’s unis are sweet. There performance on the football field so far..not that great so far.
GB7,
Huh. Why is Furcal so “coveted”? Is he the one who made those awful errors in the post-season?
Yes, the camo is new.
There=Their
I’m digressing here, but the topic is relevent. I’ve always been a Cashman supporter, as I feel George and his Tampa cronies were responsible for derailing his efforts. That said, I can not get over the fact we offered NOBODY arbitration. With the pics we lose to free agency, we are guaranteed two poor drafts in a row.
More importantly, for another season it seems as if there is no unifying “big picture” to our roster formation. In fairness, it’s too early to grade his work. Additionally, the starting pitching staff should rightfully be the top priority and he has identified. However, it seems as if Cash somehow believes that Swisher and Nady will replace Giambi and Abreu’s production. I actually like Swisher and Nady. They remind me of the type of players we’ve been missing since the dynasty in the late nineties, and the “all-star at every position” has surely been a dismal failure. However, signing a player like Tex not only improves our offense, it improves our defense, and keeps him from Boston (our direct competitor) and Aneheim (who always seems to give us trouble). That makes him VERY valuable.
Just for icing, we still have no quality center fielder in sight.
There’s still plenty time to see what pans out, but unless he has some surprises up his sleeve, this off season may be strike three for Cash in my book.
Joe,
I concur……CC should make up his mind post haste, so we can all move forward, and focus on the next big FA pursuit.
Theo meeting W/CC? Have the Red Sox ever paid Yankee money to one of their pitchers? Beckett currently the highest paid pitcher on the team 3/$30M.
Could you ever imagine the Sox giving CC 6/$140M then dealing with Beckett’s new contract?
Theo meeting CC is a farce.
I’ll be very surprised if the Sox end up Tex, even if the Yankees don’t, I just can’t see them going dollar for dollar with the Angels. Paps, Youkilis up for new contracts.
Other then what they gave Drew the rest of their contracts have been quite low.
mel
December 6th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
GB7,
Huh. Why is Furcal so “coveted”? Is he the one who made those awful errors in the post-season?
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9 years in the majors and 5 years with 20+ errors, including a high of 31. Bad hands, strong but inaccurate arm. Oakland had no place for him unless they could get rid of Bobby Crosby(Bubba’s brother)
RSM,
I’ll admit that I’m not very knowledgeable about the strategies of offering arbitration, but there might be some logic.
Moose-took his word he’s retiring, or that have a gentleman’s agreement that he’s welcome back if he gets the itch to pitch.
Andy-financial implications of arbitration amount
Bobby-did not want to risk Bobby’s defense coming back and Swish was already in the coop. Seeing as other, older OF weren’t offered arby either, looks like the right call.
Giambi-couldn’t risk his statueness coming back
Marte-already locked up.
GB: Army is wearing camo to honor a famous attack on a Naval base?
mel: you’re twisting yourself in knots here but you’re quite wrong! The only thing I said about Mrs. Aceves is that she’s beautiful. A Moose bar will be on its way to you if you can prove I made a crude remark about Mrs. Aceves. The butt of my joke was Aceves himself.
Whereas your remark took an unwarranted shot at the morals of a young lady about whom you were completely ignorant. No applicable pot/kettle comparisons here. No need to apologize to me, I’m just worried about the kids on here who might be confused about why you said the mean thing about the nice Canadian girl.
Ariel: heck, I’ll give you 2-1 odds that CC isn’t going back to Milwaukee! As for Cal-USC 2009, I’d be happy to revisit that next season. As for now, I’ve gotta get out of here and get over to Berkeley to enjoy a Golden Bear slapdown of the hapless Huskies.
Later, folks!
People knocking the resigning of Marte for 12 mil over 3 years, should look at what middle relief pitchers are getting this year so far (Howrey, Affeldt, etc) and they’re not even close to Marte. That was a good deal for NYY.
Pete has said repeatedly that the Yankees cannot afford both CC and Tex. Why not? 80m is off books this year, and at least 26m more next year (JD and Matsui). While I know we need a lot of help in the rotation (though the fall/winter performances of PH and IPK are very encouraging), we don’t have a legit positional prospect other than Ajax above the AA level. Montero is a beast but will be in A ball this year. Romine, Sublett and others have potential but they are waaaaaay off. So where are the runs going to come from? We need Tex in the worst possible way, and I do not see the affordability argument. If Tex makes 23m per year, CC makes 22m per year, you still have 35m to work with to complete the roster (again not counting the 26m or more coming off next year). I don’t get it, unless Hal really is just a bean counter and has none of his Dad’s drive to win. Given the way they are treating their long-time fans in the switch to the new YS, they OWE us these investments.
Joe from LI,
“That’s very true, Ariel. My only point is that the greater the difference between the Yankees’ offer and any other, the more likely that the lure of being close to home gets dimmer and dimmer.”
_________
Absolutely, and very well stated.
Nick in SF
December 6th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
GB: Army is wearing camo to honor a famous attack on a Naval base?
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Hawaii was as much a staging area for the Army as it was for the Navy. Hickham and Wheeler Fields took a devastating hit that day.
Not a bad HOF class of 2013 – Maddox and the Moose
On Marte, the only issue people have is giving a guy a 3 year contract for is 34 and had some arm problems this year. Affeldt has been healthy and is younger. Marte’s contract was in line, but certainly the Yanks did not get a bargain in this market!
Nick,
Avery made the comment, not me. I only said that someone was making the rounds. Yes, a crude comment, not knowing the person, occupation, and country of origin (still don’t know why it’s a big deal that she’s Canadian). So I apologize (again) for offending anyone.
I also apologize for misinterpreting your comment. I didn’t realize that you could’ve meant cooking, cleaning, scrabble, or playing catch in the back yard.
And thanks for the info on the ASU game.
Bob(The Original)
That is a great link to the “Baseball Prospectus” article.
It outlines a very feasible plan to get back to the top.
“People knocking the resigning of Marte for 12 mil over 3 years, should look at what middle relief pitchers are getting this year so far (Howrey, Affeldt, etc) and they’re not even close to Marte.”
Marte isn’t much better than Affeldt. At least he hasn’t been the last two seasons. Didn’t Howry get only one year and $2.75M? He’s not great by any stretch, but that’s not a bad deal.
Fredo Corleone
December 6th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
“People knocking the resigning of Marte for 12 mil over 3 years, should look at what middle relief pitchers are getting this year so far (Howrey, Affeldt, etc) and they’re not even close to Marte.”
Marte isn’t much better than Affeldt. At least he hasn’t been the last two seasons. Didn’t Howry get only one year and $2.75M? He’s not great by any stretch, but that’s not a bad deal.
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Marte had a tired shoulder after the workload Girardi had put on him during the first two weeks with back to back multiple inning appearances. His numbers are skewered by two bad games.
Affeldt has had two good years in about 7. He signed for 8 mil over 2 years. 4 mil a year for a middle reiever with two good years? Howry gets nearly 3 mil off of a bad year at age 35? NYY hasn’t had a good lefty in the pen in 7 years…now they have two. I have more faith in Marte setting up than I would in Affeldt or Howry.
Wiseman
December 6th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
On Marte, the only issue people have is giving a guy a 3 year contract for is 34 and had some arm problems this year. Affeldt has been healthy and is younger. Marte’s contract was in line, but certainly the Yanks did not get a bargain in this market!
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Marte would have gotten more on the open market. 4 mil a year for a good setup man, especially a left hander is a good deal. As more pitchers are ready to be promoted, he has a talent and contract that could easliy be moved.
mel
December 6th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Nick,
Avery made the comment, not me. I only said that someone was making the rounds. Yes, a crude comment, not knowing the person, occupation, and country of origin (still don’t know why it’s a big deal that she’s Canadian). So I apologize (again) for offending anyone.
I also apologize for misinterpreting your comment. I didn’t realize that you could’ve meant cooking, cleaning, scrabble, or playing catch in the back yard.
And thanks for the info on the ASU game.
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Only reason to remark that she’s Canadian is that the majority of Canadian hockey players are on the same level as baseball and football players here.
She’s absolutely no different than Milano and the other US actresses that hang around baseball players. Doris Day had a thing for baseball players…especially Maury Wills and Willie Davis. Actors, actresses date each other…even date former mates best friends. It’s no different than it was in high school.
When the best Free Agent pitcher in over a decade comes on the market, you make every effort to get him…..When the best postion player since Manny in 2000, becomes a FreeAgent, you make every to sign him…..These are prime time players, these are building block for long term success type players…..I’ve said this before, signing pitchers who will offer a short time solution ( Lowe etc. ) is not the answer as they’ll be a burden in a few years….Hughes, Kennedy are right on the cusp of being big league starters, regardless of what many think here about them…..It’s going to cost nearly a 1/4 of a billion dollars to sgn two starters, and only one merits that consideration…Get CC & Texeria…Then sign someone for a two year deal to tie the staff over until Hughes and company are truly ready for the bigs….Hell, Brad Penny is worth the gamble……No more 35 year flavored starters….
Pat, this is the first time in years that one of the top 3 pitchers and the best player at his position have hit the market in the same year. That NYY has a crack at getting both, it’s almost a necessity to at least try for both.
Gentlemen the mark of others’intelligence is how much they agree with you, well said.
Some very nice articles focusing on various defensive and offensive stats (explanations)
Below, the values of letting Abreu go and bringing up Gardner with Damon in LF and Nady in right.
google poormansanalyst
What does that mean? It means that in order for the Yankees to come out even in the Abreu for Gardner trade-off, all Gardner would have to do is hit .255/.345/.356 over a full season. If he can do that, the Yankees made the right decision in letting Abreu leave, even before you consider the money.
BO Knows,,,,I agree with you….Does that make me intelligent ????
Pat
Yo, man.