Two titles on the line this weekend
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 06, 2008 
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CC Sabathia will be at the MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas tonight for the welterweight fight between Oscar De La Hoya and Manny Pacquiao. It should be a good fight. But for baseball fans, it’s the sub-plot that will be more interesting.
Brian Cashman is headed to Las Vegas early and plans to meet with CC regarding the record $140 million offer the Yankees made a few weeks ago. Before the Winter Meetings start on Monday, Cashman wants to look Sabathia in the eye and get a sense of whether the lefty has any intentions of playing in New York or is waiting for a West Cost team to make him an offer.
(Just an aside here. De La Hoya weighed in at 145 and Pacquiao at 142. You figure CC outweighs them both? I’d say by 15 pounds. If this was the old WWF, CC would climb in the ring and toss them both around. Now that would be worth the PPV cost.)
This is tricky business for Cashman. In the end, you still have to figure that the Yankees will literally make Sabathia an offer he can’t refuse. At some point, we all have a number. But what if Sabathia truly has no desire to play in New York? Is it then worth it for the Yankees to bribe him into acceptance?
I personally believe that location and lifestyle are two vastly overrated factors in the eyes of the public and some members of the media. Over the course of the baseball season, a player spends roughly three months in his home city. The other three months are on the road and the first seven weeks are in spring training.
The Sabathia family could live quite comfortably in Westchester or New Jersey. If they managed to lead a happy life in Cleveland, I’m sure they could handle New York. Wealthy people also have private jets at their disposal.
It was amusing to read this piece in the San Francisco Chronicle suggesting that Sabathia should take less money because California is such a wonderful place to live.
It has all the standard paint-by-numbers arguments. New York is “madness” with a “relentless press corps hounding him at every turn.” CC prefers “more down-to-earth pursuits.” The Yankees are a “parade of mindless sheep.”
Let’s see. Nobody who writes for a paper in San Francisco can call out New York for madness. San Francisco retired the madness title a long time ago. As for his earthy pursuits, CC hangs out with LeBron James, sits courtside at NBA games and is flying in to Vegas for the weekend to see a fight. That’s not exactly gardening.
Meanwhile, as a member of the relentless press corp in New York, I’m here to tell you that we usually talk to a starting pitcher two or three times a week. Even cranky Mike Mussina managed to come to grips with it.
Mindless sheep? The only prominent Yankee acquired via free agency from another team is Johnny Damon. Johnny is many things, a sheep is not one of them. There might not be a more independent minded player in baseball, in fact.
Two predictions: De La Hoya knocks out Pacquiao. He’s too big for him. And Sabathia takes the title as wealthiest pitcher in history. It might not happen soon, but it will happen.
I just took the LSAT!
Sabathia’s agent is trying to stir up a phantom market, so the Yanks will up their offer. The Yankees are essentially bidding against themsleves at this point.
Darnit Peter, stop making me so optimistic!!!
I, for one, would normally not convince a guy who doesn’t want to play in NY with $$$, but since we really do need Sabathia more than anything else in this world right now, I suppose an exception must be made from time to time.
I think Cashman will have a really good idea about Sabathia’s intentions after they meet today. Sabathia is a stand-up guy and so is Cashman. I think they’ll be honest with each other.
It’s like chasing a girl, here’s where I stand…let me know.
Braintrust,
Nobody can match the Yankees dollars, no one.
If CC and Cash meet and CC says that he needs more money to come, then they are going to give it to him. I think that in the end, the contract will be worth $150 million over 6 years.
As I wrote above, there are very few exceptions I’d make as a GM of the Yankees when considering needs. We need CC more than anyone or anything else and that is why we have to blow him away with $$$, unfair or not. Its the premium we pay.
Jenkins hit a nerve!! Not necessarily as to what CC will or will not do, but oh, that “New York” Press!!!!
Ariel,
Jenkins is just jealous.
The New York media is at the very core of the world of media. Without it, the media is half as strong as it currently is. Love it or hate it, it is what it is and it is definitely NOT perfect. It is, however, quite important.
If they are being totally honest the conversation should go something like this…
Cash: So CC, we’ve had this offer on the table for over three weeks, any decision yet?
CC: I’m still weighing my options?
Cash: But it looks like the only two options are us and Milwaukee, and you don’t want to go back there for 40 Mill less than we’re paying.
CC: No, if it’s a choice between New York and Cheese land, I’ll take New York.
Cash: So what do you say we get er done?
CC: Well, I’m not sure…
Cash: About what?
CC: If I’m being totally honest, I want to play on the West coast, where I grew up.
Cash: But CC the market’s not there.
CC: My agent says it will be. If Texiera goes to Boston, LA can free up the money for me, and then there’s the Giants.
Cash: But didn’t LA say Tex was their top priority, and SF said they couldn’t compete financially.
CC: Things can change.
Cash: I’m sure they can, but we kind of need to have an answer soon.
CC: I can respect that Brian…How about right after New Year’s.
Some straight talk, Pete.
Seriously, how many of you out there would leave that much money on the table? And be honest, don’t answer like a conspiracy theorist and lend credence to the West Coast “lifestyle” argument. CC may be bigger than most of us put together, but at the end of the day, he’s got family and bills and doesn’t want to work forever. Plus, it’s nice to win Cy Young awards, and be told you are the best, but making the most money ever for a pitcher speaks loudest. So, IMO, eventually he takes the money.
OK, so why the delay? CC is waiting it out because he knows he’ll have to take a lot of crap about the “biggest pitching contract ever” for a long time, sort of like A-Rod does now. Every bad game, every HR, every downtick in his peripherals will be scrutinized under the microscope. Thus, agreeing to the “biggest pitching contract ever” is not without it’s downside – it’s lifechanging. IMO, it’s also a matter of pride, however. CC doesn’t want to look like he’s all about the money (even though he probably is 90% about the money). He wants people, especially the Steinbrenners, to see he’s not just property to be bought and sold so he’s not jumping just because Steinbrenner Inc. tore into the room and laid down a pile of cash. He’s trying to keep it real in an admittedly unreal world.
Braintrust,
Good colloquy!!!
I’d venture to guess no free agent in the history of any sport has ever left $30-40M of guaranteed money on the table.
I don’t think it has ever happened.
So for CC to turn down the yankees he would have to be the first.
The brewers offer which has been reported at 5/100 is actually worth much less than that in all liklihood. That deal is reported to have significant deferred money and backloading.
The real value offer is likely much less.
The rumored Giants offer would also be for much less in terms of real dollars than the stated nominal dollars.
Is CC really going to be willing to accecpt fewer guaranteed real dollars than Barry Zito?
CC won’t wait until New Years, but I do agree that he wants to wait to see what happens with Teixeira with the hopes that Anaheim will pursue him. Problem is, I personally think Anaheim will move to Manny if they don’t get Teix.
Teixeira will be signed within two weeks and I don’t buy the notion that Boston will be the guys to sign him. We’re hearing about extensions for Youkilis, Drew?. They have to re-sign Beckett, they just signed Pedroia, and who are we kidding? They don’t need Teixeira regardless of whether they want him. Personally, I’d hate to see Tex on Boston, but if their offense is healthy, it is downright nasty between Bay, Ortiz, Youkilis, Drew, and Pedroia.
CC will sign with whatever team he is going to sign with before Xmas.
How Do , In the End Cashman will do what’s best for the Yankees . He did that last year , in the last year of his contract and he will do it now . I would like C.C. and A.J.
Very Nice !!!
Tho unlikely, it would be interesting to see CC play a game of “chicken” in effect daring Cashman to withdraw the offer (see Braintrust’s colloquy, above)
If Cash buys in and “waits”, he would probably lose Tex; if he doesn’t, he would lose CC if he is true to his “word” of a few weeks ago (we can’t do both); does CC blink (knowing full well no one will match or probably come close to the offer in hand).
If I had to speculate, Cash will give him a drop-dead date of relatively short duration.
Pete — your WWF comment was only missing one thing.
Gorilla Monsoon yelling into the mike: “Pandemonium has broken out at the Garden!”
Sounds like your tune is changing Pete. CC will be a Yankee, the rest is just semantics for those with nothing better to fill their daily/weekly word requirements with.
Ariel,
Who cares if we lose out on Teix? Teix is not what the Yankees need. CC is.
Simple as that.
How is my tune changing? I wrote a story about Sabathia likely becoming a Yankee in spring training last year.
“I would like C.C. and A.J.”
To tell ya the truth I’d be happy w/ CC and Sheets
An offer he can’t refuse?
“Las Vegas (AP)– Brian Cashman held a gun to Sabathia’s head, and assured him that either his signature or his brains would be on the contract. CC signed for $145million.”
“De La Hoya weighed in at 145 and Pacquiao at 142. You figure CC outweighs them both? I’d say by 15 pounds”
———————————————————-
Thanksgiving was a few days ago. Make it 25 pounds instead of 15. I don’t personally know CC, but I’m thinking the man enjoys lots of turkey and stuffing..
Prince,
Ah, if life in Yankeeland were that simple!!
I read Bruce Jenkins every week. As I wrote in the previous thread, he contradicts himself all the time. He fancies himself some sort of guardian of old-world values. But is there an older value than taking the vastly-superior offer? Oh, and again, I like Jenkins; he’s just wrong in this case.
Mel: I hope neither of us is taking this too seriously, but as you surely know, I never blamed you for what Avery said.
Ariel,
Oh, but it is!!!!
Just that simple. CC represents a “need” whereas Teix represents a “want” by Yankee fans (myself excluded).
We can muscle our way to the playoffs with our bats nearly every year, but without the dominant starting pitching of our dynasty years, we will never raise the Championship banner.
Tex with a suspect top 3 for the playoffs (assuming the Yanks get there) does not equal victory.
CC, Wang, and Joba with two soft spots in the lineup stands a better chance in the post season.
Pete learn boxing…. No way Pacquiao gets knocked out…
Yanks should sign CC then Tex. They offer better value than the rest of the flawed players on the market. Then he can re-sign Andy, and trade Nady and stuff for another pitcher if he doesn’t think Hughes/Aceves can hold down a spot. It’s the overpays for over 30′s that mess up a club. If the Yanks make two good investments with these two great players they re-open a 5-6 year championship window. They shouldn’t be screwing around with any other plans.
Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
December 6th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
“I would like C.C. and A.J.”
To tell ya the truth I’d be happy w/ CC and Sheets
————————————————————
Brandon, you just like players with intitials for names because it’s easier to type. If BJ Surhoff was still playing you’d want him. On your football team you’d wny JC Caroline, RC Owens, OJ Simpson, and YA Tittle as your quarterback.
On your football team you’d ***want***
Just because he hasn’t accepted the offer doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to play here. It’s all a part of the game. You get the Yankees immediately in there, but you let them linger by saying you liked Milwaukee and the NL and might like to play in California. That way you try to rope another team into making a close offer to the Yankee one. Then you go back to the Yanks and say that you are leaning towards the other offer, unless they want to boost theirs slightly. Maximum profit. Signage complete.
Phil,
I disagree on Teix. We do not need him and I think it is presumptuous to assume that we could get a huge return for Nady when he is a free agent after 09.
And personally, I don’t think Hughes can hold anything down in the yankee rotation until he learns more than two pitches.
That guy should not be expected in the rotation until 2010. Bullpen halfway through 09, spot starts where needed. As good as he is, he has a lot to learn and patience with him will pay off.
Mad Princess,
We don’t need a patient, power hitting, gold glove type first baseman? That’s news. We need another hitter or two and the places they are needed are at 1B and CF.
Nady and stuff could get us lots of things, and spare us from wasteful overpending on over 30′s like Burnett and Lowe.
You get what you deserve for reading Bruce Jenkins. He wrote a mammoth article earlier this year about how monitoring pitch counts was ruining baseball and was one of the leading voices in favor of Bochy having Lincecum throw 130+ pitches regularly. The guy is clueless and HATES the Red Sox and Yankees.
Phil,
Was I insulting you? No, I was disagreeing. You are a child for unnecessarily insulting people.
We don’t need Teix and his 160+ million dollar contract.
1B will be a logjam in a few years (Posada, Jeter, Montero?), thus we traded for Nick Swisher who has a great glove at 1B and is a better hitter than 2008 might indicate.
For the most part, you have seemed fairly pessimistic about the Yankees chances to sign anyone. Hence your piece about Plan B yesterday.
Mad Princess,
I didn’t insult you.
Swisher can also play a corner spot if we move Nady, which we should. The Yanks can pretty easily afford both CC and Tex and they should take them both. Not only do they really improve the Yanks, keeping them away for California and Boston, really helps the Yanks, too.
Phil
I’m with you on this one. TMPIP and others seem dead set to spend too much for old and brittle pitchers. Last year everyone or nearly or many argued that the young guns should be given a chance. In other words, the Yankees would be in rebuilding mode. Well, rebuilding takes some time, and getting a guy like Tex certainly speeds up the process. I for one can live with Joba, Hughes, Aceves, Kennedy and the others as part of the pitching staff. Mix and match with CC and Wang, let Tex and the rest of the guys pound away, and the playooffs look good. By the way, do you thinik players like Jeter, Arod and the rest won’t welcome another big bat–plus a glove that will solidify the infield for several years?
I hope Cash comes home with more than we sent him for. If he’s like the rest of us, he’ll try to stay within his list and budegt–but if the right deal is there, we take it!
“Brandon, you just like players with intitials for names because it’s easier to type. If BJ Surhoff was still playing you’d want him. On your football team you’d wny JC Caroline, RC Owens, OJ Simpson, and YA Tittle as your quarterback.”
GB damn you I never was an RC Owens fan
As for Sheets it could be that or it could be that when he’s healthy he’s one of the top 10 – 15 SP in the game.
Phil,,,There are several of us who share the same phisophy regarding the opportunity to sign the best FA pitcher and position player in almost a decade…..And the issue with a staff that aged is not one I think we should revisit…All they are really are bandaids……I mean the organization is biulding a excellent system which is becoming a pitching dominant…Some are talking about the Yanks spending 1/4 billion dollars on starters in the next month or so…..Sign Sabathia, get a short term contract on a guy who needs to re-invent himself ( Brad Penny ) and just ride it out….There’s a few guys who are almost ready ( Hughes ) …..Think a few years up the road, not just for 09……According to Bo Knows ( and he’s ussually insightful ) that makes us intelligent for seeing things the same way…..I think GB7 is the head of the class then if that’s the case…..Compliment old boy !!!!
Prince,
I believe you may well be in the minority, at least on this board, as to Tex and “want vs. need”. Without belaboring the point (as many of us, myself included have done) the “lineup”, as now constituted, needs a Big Bat, preferably Tex….as well, of course, CC.
Phil,
Then why do you keep calling me Mad Princess? That is an insult.
Swisher is a 1B, that is why we acquired him.
Just because it means keeping Teix away from the Angels or Boston is the worst reason to sign him. Let Boston take on his enourmous contract and logjam them with Youk, Lowell, and Papi. Let him stay in the AL West.
Can we afford him, yes? Do we need him? No. Some “want” him, but we don’t “Need” him.
Exactly why do you think Nady can’t help us? You realize he has the best arm of any outfielder we currently have, right?
Pitching is what the Yankees need and where they are focusing their efforts.
I wouldn’t mind having Teix, don’t make the mistake of assuming otherwise, but he is too expensive and does not represent need.
Old Boy? Coming from a geezer, that’s an insult.
second base yankee stadium,
What old and brittle pitchers am I lobbying for? CC is 28 dude.
Pettitte, while at the end of his career, represents a solid option for the back end of a rotation headed by CC, Wang, and Joba. Who fills that fourth spot remains to be seen, but I am not actively lobbying for Sheets, Burnett, or Lowe if that is the “old brittle pitcher” to whom you refer.
And btw way, I know I definitely have Peter on my side since he has reiterated time and time again the fact that we do not need and will not pursue Mark Teixeira. And I think we all know Peter is wiser and more informed than anyone on this board.
I heard that CC is holding out for the lead in Medellin. Can Cash deliver?
Mad Prince,
Completely sorry about the princess error. I know another poster at another site who is the Mad Princess. Please accept my apologies.
If you guys are so hell bent on getting another 1B, why not take your alleged package of “Nady and others” and trade for a 1B?
I find it completely unnecessary, personally, but that’s me, regardless of whether I am the minority on TODAY’s debate.
btw, I wonder why Cash went to DC to meet with Tex if the Yanks have no plan at all to pursue him. That’s a waste of fuel.
“Cashman wants to look Sabathia in the eye and get a sense of whether the lefty has any intentions of playing in New York”
I’m sorry but if the Yankees didn’t have the slightest idea as to CC’s inclinations from the beginning then they didn’t do their homework.
This meeting is to make sure CC has reviewed all the details of the contract and feels comfortable with everything, his future teammates, the city, his family situation etc. etc. Cashman will continue to express how much the team values CC as a person and a professional and want to support him and help him succeed in every way.
If the Yankees read this thing right, then Cashman isn’t there to figure out if CC wants to be a Yankee or not. Cashman should be there to check in with him and schmooze him.
This visit should be about being thorough not about figuring out if CC absolutely hates the idea of being a Yankee no matter what the monetary reward.
Marky Mark,
Awesome. Hopefully he’ll do a better job than Vincent Chase.
Phil,
Apologies accepted. No strong-willed man can allow himself to be called a princess.
PS
Trading Swisher or Nady is wishful thinking. Both are versitale. Both are quality clubhouse guys. Both are entering their prime.
I’ll bet 100 thousand dollars that both are Yankees in 2009.
I’m not overly fond of signing Teixeira and locking up a position for young players that I feel have a chance. however, to sign two top of the line pitchers while trying to possibly having to patch together 2 or 3 offensive positions is a futile gesture. NYY could patch together the catching spot or center field and survive, but, adding to that a first base spot would be a disaster for the next 3 years.
I’d love to wait on Laird to be rady, but, if he comes along, he’ll have to move to another position with Teixeira holding down first base. In other words, signing Sabathia and Teixeira is a must. Add Pettitte and NYY is in fine shape, providing they don’t get hammered by injuries again.
Phil,
Regarding Cash visiting Teix, it might be nothing more than posturing…Boston is doing the same to the Yankees in meeting with CC even though they obviously will not pursue him.
And the Yankees have money to burn on jet fuel if it means driving up the price on guys
Hitman,
I completely agree.
I think Nady adds more to the Yankee offense than people realize. He’s not Teixeira, but he has come into his own considerably over the past few years. Just needs to get used to the AL pitching, showed flashes of nastiness after the trade last season.
“Terrible city? Lousy team? Yanking your kids out of a cherished school system? “That’s cool,” says the athlete as he poses for photographers with his agent. “I’ve got the most coin.”
Hey, SF is a great town but this guy makes it sound as if CC has to live around the corner from The Stadium.
And The Giants? Now that’s a lousy team.
If NYY signs Teixeir, Swisher moves to right field and Nady gets traded, possibly with a minor league starter and a relief pitcher or two like Veras and Britton or Ramirez.
“btw, I wonder why Cash went to DC to meet with Tex if the Yanks have no plan at all to pursue him. That’s a waste of fuel.”
People assume it was to talk to Teixeira, do we have solid evidence that Cash spoke w/ Tex ? I heard it was to speak w/ Boras, if that’s the case it could be a number of things. Plus rumors have it, now they are just rumors but rumors have it Washington is breaking the bank on both Tex and Tek. I don’t believe this, I’d like to see thier owner show some nads before they can do this, But IDK we’ll see.
Geezer,,,GB7, I can still turn on 70 mph fastballs ( barely thought ) …In fact I yarded three last weekend at a local HS…..Metal bats are great are a marvel when it comes to old ballplayers chasing their youth…..Has everyome forgotten how many games were lost last season at the 1b position defensely…..If the plan is to get younger and more atheltic, well then there’s a outstanding soon to be MVP 1b sitting out there……
I agree – Cash did his job in meeting with Tex – one, you never know what might fall into your lap, and two, it might drive up the price for the Red Sox or Angels (the more they have to tie up with Tex, and the less $$$ they have available for their other needs, the better0.
Also, Cash was probably talking to Boras about his other clients, as well. Like Derek Lowe.
And something we need after addressing starting pitching, is the little matter of CF. Because right now, we’re looking at Melky and Brett, and while I completely root for those guys, they haven’t set the world on fire. That’s a much bigger hole in the lineup than whether Tex plays 1B instead of Nick Swisher.
Pat M,
I agree that signing both CC and Tex would be the ideal outcome.
But the question is whether this ideal outcome is feasible and whether it is in the practical plans of the organization. And in turn, it is not what is the optimal plan under the constraints that exist right now.
The current payroll commitments total to around $145M at this current moment. Add CC that goes to $168M.
$168M. With that you still have two more empty spots in the rotation, the bench to round out and potential upgrades at CF (which could be delayed of course).
Let’s assume Andy signs for $12M. So now the payroll is up to $180M. One more starter is need, plus the bench +/- CF.
Throw in tex – you’re at $200M-202M or so (assuming tex signs for 22m/yr).
That leaves one spot in the rotation and the bench +/- CF.
So it’s really up to the organization. If they want CC and Tex then they are going to need to either fill in the rest of the team with young players making the league minimum, carry now experience on the bench and roll the dice with gardner in CF or spend more in 2009 than they did in 2008.
Now there’s some payroll coming off next year but new players will be needed as well.
It really gets down to how you decide to allocate resources.
But I see know way around it. To sign CC and Tex would require the team giving up its desire to cut payroll in any substantive way.
Given the resources of the new park perhaps they should.
I get the feeling however that this is not the direction they are going in, especially since CC and Tex will be very long term fixed costs.
GB7
I believe you have the right idea. From one old guy to the next, sounds like Cashman’s denials aboiut pursuing CC and Tex are simply posturing to keep others from driving up the prices.
Brandon,
Tex was present, I think that’s pretty good evidence Cash and he talked. He can speak to Boras over the phone any time he wants.
PAT M
December 6th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Geezer,,,GB7, I can still turn on 70 mph fastballs ( barely thought ) …In fact I yarded three last weekend at a local HS…..Metal bats are great are a marvel when it comes to old ballplayers chasing their youth…..Has everyome forgotten how many games were lost last season at the 1b position defensely…..If the plan is to get younger and more atheltic, well then there’s a outstanding soon to be MVP 1b sitting out there……
———————————————————–
I had to give up minature golf because I couldn’t turn on a stationary ball.
Speaking of bat improvement/changes like metal bats, did you hear of the bats they were attempting to profect a few years ago…composite and graphite bats were two and another was an ergonomic style? The bat handle was angled in such away that bat speed increased and lessened the shock of contact?
They make hammers that way now which really does drive nails so much easier and faster.
The Tigers are willing to trade Matt Joyce for either a SS or a catcher. too bad we don’t have any!
***perfect*** a few years ago
“Tex was present, I think that’s pretty good evidence Cash and he talked. He can speak to Boras over the phone any time he wants.”
Quotes please.
**any major league ready**
“The Tigers are willing to trade Matt Joyce for either a SS or a catcher. too bad we don’t have any!”
You do realize Edwar Gonzalez may be better than him ?
If NYY could rope in Sabathia, Teixeira and Pettitte, I could deal with having Aceves at the end of the rotation (I think he could turn in a .500 record and a 4.50 ERA). Go with a speedy platoon in center with Gardner and Christian.
Not getting Tex is a big mistake. Swisher is insurance in case we don’t, but I don’t think that is the Yanks plan going into new stadium. The line up we have now gets us nowhere even with a much improved rotation.
I’d tell CC to take the offer now or take a walk. I don’t think raising the offer is the right thing to do and if he doesn’t want to be a yankee let em play for less elsewhere. The bidding on him will end up in the 100-120 range and that is fine but anymore than what we are offering is a joke.
Go sign AJ/Sheets and Tex. You all know that I want Manny too and trading Matsui and or Nady would allow that to happen.
I’m tired of hearing about keeping 1B open for Posada or Jeter etc. We need a defensive first baseman and like said above, this will give us another 5-6 year championship window.
If we don’t go into new stadium with a butt kicking team us fans will be pissed. The fans will not buy 4 million seats at those prices in 2010 and the front office knows it.
Spend high this year and get younger this year and next. Ajax to CF next year and Damon and Nady/Matsui go away.
This is a huge transitional year for us and we need to hit it big.
There is ample evidence that Cash went to Washington specifically to meet with Tex, with Boras of course present. You can put whatever spin you want on it, but it does seem as though he wanted face time with the second biggest FA before meeting CC so as to gauage exactly where the Yankees stand.
If indeed Cash was serious when he stated that the Yankees would not go for both CC and Tex, it only makes sense that he gather as much information as he could were he to not get a clear and compelling read as to where CC stands.
IMO, Cash definitely wants to end the FA period, with one of the two, preferably CC.
Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
December 6th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
“The Tigers are willing to trade Matt Joyce for either a SS or a catcher. too bad we don’t have any!”
You do realize Edwar Gonzalez may be better than him ?
———————————————————–
I’m betting that he gets picked up in the Rule 5 draft, though. He’s not being protected.
Ajax is being touted more than any Yankee position prospect in the last 15 years, at least. I hope you guys are right.
Imagine if the Yanks made the trade for Santana last year?
CC
Santana
Wang
Pettite
Joba
Thats an instant World Series team
I don’t think city/home is overrated, but I also think sabathia wants to play in nyc. If he didn’t, we’d hear more rumors he did.
No Hype,
If they got Santana last year, they would not be bidding on CC, and Tex would definitely be the number one target.
Pete, I know the ‘official’ position is that Swisher is the man at 1B. Is there wiggle room in this with consideration to Tiexiera? Yes, no or ‘perhaps’? Is there even an outside chance of ‘perhaps’?
First off, I do think Swisher would be OK at 1B. Probably about equal to Giambi’s OBP/BA with the addition of actually being able play the position, even considering he’s an average hitter and he had a down year at the plate last year. He’s an upgrade for us, even though he’s not the top guy obviously available this off-season.
Hard to believe that if Boston would even consider moving Lowell to make room for Tiexiera (the top guy) that NY wouldn’t also consider moving Swisher or using him as a backup 1B/OF and still pursuing Tiexiera.
I know, it’s not cost efficient if Swisher is going to be paid $3.6mil to sit on the bench. If there’s even an honest consideration being given to spending a ton of money over 2-4 years for Manny, I think Tiexiera + Swisher (assuming he’s kept on board) would still cost less than Manny. Manny is strictly an offensive player (in more than one sense of the term) with questionable ‘team priorities’ on his record. If he’s not kept, Swisher could be traded with someone for that 3rd pitcher instead of going for an unlikely hat trick on top FA pitchers. Two FA pitchers plus Tiexiera, and a trade for a starting OF and/or 3d pitcher makes more sense to me than signing Manny in any situation or risking so much cash on Burnett’s or Sheets’ (or both) health.
The truth is that the Yanks could easily afford CC this year too. This is the Yankees we are talking about…
All the way up ther! How do u think u did on your LSAT?
CB,,By now you must know that I value and respect your perpectives and opinions…..My point and concern is that A-Rod only has a few more years to remain at the level he and we currnetly have come accustomed to and expect..Besides the ballteam needs him to continue to perform at that level in order to compete in October….There is no player currently on the roster and I do not see any hitter becoming available anytime soon to tandem up with # 13 in the order…..That concern is resolved with the signing of Texeria…Just imagine those two hitting in tandem for the next 5 years or so….Regardless of what many here are proclimating about a healthy Jorge and my belief in Matsui returning to form, niether one is a long term answer to this question….Who hits before and or after Alex ????? It’s a haunting question that’s going to linger for a long time…And time is not a luxury in this regard….
“I’m betting that he gets picked up in the Rule 5 draft, though. He’s not being protected.”
Yup. Oakland already picked up Matt Carson IDK who will but I’m betting someone takes Gonzalez.
Yankee Ray,
“If we don’t go into new stadium with a butt kicking team us fans will be pissed. The fans will not buy 4 million seats at those prices in 2010 and the front office knows it.”
_________
Though a distinct minority view on this board, and amongst the NY Press, I concur. As you correctly state you need both Big FA Bats to turn this into a “Butt Kicking Team”. But it’s a longshot.
Cmon Pete. You actually deigned to take notice of the blatherings of a west coast rag? Not only that, but a writer assigned to the (haha) Giants? Even a NJ paper is better than that. I guess it must be a slow news day…
Of course if there’s even a slim chance of ‘perhaps’ it won’t happen until after CC is signed. Certainly not the part where they trade Swisher to make room for Big Tex.
Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
December 6th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
“I’m betting that he gets picked up in the Rule 5 draft, though. He’s not being protected.”
Yup. Oakland already picked up Matt Carson IDK who will but I’m betting someone takes Gonzalez.
————————————————————
A team like San Diego, Washington, Seattle, or a team tat needs offense from the outfield or first base as in’t going anywhere and can keep a playeron the roster for a year would snap himup. He has a good average and power, doesn’t strike out and can run fairly well.
first base ***and isn’t*** going anywhere
Ariel, Had Johan not been traded last season, who do you go after this winter ,,CC or Johan….And is the valued difference between them greater than a Phil Hughes ????
“If we don’t go into new stadium with a butt kicking team us fans will be pissed. The fans will not buy 4 million seats at those prices in 2010 and the front office knows it.”
Since when ? Dude there is probably a waiting list a mile long..if they don’t go someone else will. Like a diehard fan.
I need a capologist to tell me what this 25 man roster would cost us.
Rotation:
Wang,Pettite,Burnett,Joba, Hughes/Aceves
Bullpen: Mo, Marte, Veres, Coke, Bruney, Ramirez, Robertson
Lineup
Damon LF
Jeter SS
Tex 1B
Arod SS
Manny DH
Posada C
Swisher RF
Cano 2B
Melky CF
Bench: Ransom, Gardener, Molina, IF ??
We trade Nady and Matsui for a backup IF and a prospect and I’d pay a little of Matsuis contract.
While I know this will never happen, this is what I would like to see. I think our staff would be fine and young with the exception of Pettite. The pen would be fine and also young with the exception of Mo.
The bench though not strong would be adequate. We could always add to that later.
The line up would be killer and the defense would be fine. We could live with the CF spot until next year when Ajax comes up. So if this roster can come in somewhere under 220 mill I think we could do it for a year as we would lose Damon and Pettites money next year replaced by Ajax and maybe Aceves.
Call me a dreamer but how good would we be?
Pat, did you read my question to your 3:43 PM remarks. I had a question for you at 3:52 PM.
GB7, I’m with you, I say sign CC, Tex and Andy and call it a day. I do not think that blows out the budget too much, revenues are soaring next year, no doubt about it.
Watching CC watch the fit is probably more exciting than watching the actual fit. Boxing is horribly boring sport. Give me MMA over boxing any day of the week.
CB,
Your are not including two things – one, with tex signed, swisher moves to the outfield. He wont play off the bench and he can play center or even right. We dont need to upgrade centerfield because signing tex already allows us to do that. Two, contracts are almost always backloaded – tex and cc can sign for 20 and 23 mil per year respectively and not necessarily make that next season – with matsui, damon and possibly nady out of town next season, we still have significant payroll flexibility to fill the holes in the OF. Also, your right – how much revenue are the yanks pulling in next season? Do they really need to cut payroll the season before they will make the most money in the history of this or any organization. The only problem I foresee with signing Tex is that multiple players need to move to DH or another position within the next couple of years including posada and Jeter particularly. But with matsui gone next season – posada could play dh for the most part and jeter doesnt have to move to first. Plenty of SS can play somewhere in the OF late in their careers. Finally, the bench is already set with random, molina and gardner/melky (with tex signed.) We dont need more money added to payroll to fill holes that arent really their. We may need to sign a power hitter off the bench but that could come cheap and we dont need it with tex, arod, posada and matsui all in the lineup. Thats a righty, 2 lefties and a switch hitter with power.
Since when ? Dude there is probably a waiting list a mile long..if they don’t go someone else will. Like a diehard fan.
- I hear ya Brandon but I’m just trying to make a point. I used to be a season ticket holder nut now live in So Florida. I coach Baseball and I would still go if I lived there. My point is that the fans want a winner and want it now. It’s been 8 yrs now and we’ve had a window that apprears to be closing and it needs to be opened again. We won’t accept anything but and the front office knows it as they proclaim to expect chamionships every year.
Getting younger as we have been working towards is definitely the way to go and that is why I am only looking for 1 big time FA pitche along with Pettite for 1 yr.
But, we need bats in the new stadium as we will never be a Rays type team. JMO.
My point is that the Yankees need to win now. A Rod, Jeter, Posada, Damon, Mo. It’s the Law of diminishing returns, old age disease. The baseball club is the tail that wags the dog – Yes Network – the money machine. The Yankees need another impact bat, a given, and another icon for the fan base. At this point Texiera at 20 mil is more valuable then Lowe at 15. I could go on about the Big Bang theory at the new stadium but add your own points.
GB,
I dont understand why you think the yanks may trade nady and swisher if tex comes here. There is very little chance of it. Swisher was gotten for betemit and prospect coming off a horrible season. We would get almost nothing for him and we still need him to fill an OF position possibly center and replace gardners bat in the lineup to put him on the bench where he provides us much more. Nady is making very little money and there is no way we would refuse to re-sign abreu just to trade nady a month later. Nady was acquired with the intention of replacing abreu it seems while cutting payroll to add big FAs this off season. He is our starting rightfielder – no question about it. And he can put up decenter numbers with a 280 to 300 batting avg and 25 homers. He needs a better obp but it was at 383 in 327 at bats for the pirates last year (that would be one of the best on the team.) He could at least have around 350 around league average/
“Who hits before and or after Alex ????? It’s a haunting question that’s going to linger for a long time…And time is not a luxury in this regard….”
Pat M,
You’ve made a very compelling case. Quite honestly, I’ve definitely come over to your side on this issue.
I want the club to sign CC and Tex and do think they should make allowances as needed to work around that.
Part of why bringing Tex in now makes sense is because it will improve CF. Move Swisher to LF, Damon to CF with Gardner substituting in CF in defensive situations, large ball parks and against teams that run.
Signing Tex would improve two positions significantly and completely alter the line up. I do think Gardner has a high probability of being a black hole in the line up.
So I agree I’d very much like to see Tex signed. It’s a very good argument that given the investment in Alex and his age, the team should try to maximize his value right now by surrounding him with talent. Better to make that investment in the present rather than later on when he’s only older.
Honestly, I’d like them to sign Tex and then have Tex bat 4th with Alex hitting 3rd. I’d like the switch hitter batting clean up and hitting behind Alex. Alex’s worst enemy is himself. When he relaxes he’s just unbelievable. Having Tex behind him in the line up, particularly as a switch hitter, would allow Alex to do that.
But even if they do sign Tex I still feel that they need someone else in the rotation besides Hughes/ Aceves.
Unfortunately, I don’t see signing Tex and CC as something the club will do. Just a feeling. Hope I’m wrong. But I don’t think the numbers will work.
Now assuming that the team won’t sign CC and Tex, I do think they need to maximize the rotation.
I’d also like to see them explore another hitter as an upgrade to hit around Alex. Perhaps Dunn. If they want to go very high risk/high reward – Milton Bradley.
The Dunn’s and Bradely’s are suboptimal compared to Tex.
But we might be living in very suboptimal economic times.
Brandon or anyone else who knows-
The following showed up in my Yankee email news alert. Manny and Mo being in the title intrigues me but unfortunately high school spanish only gets me so far. Best I can tell, it says Mo would welcome Manny to come play for the Yankees. He thinks he’s one of the best hitters but starting pitching is what the team is/has been missing. Did he say anything else interesting that I lost in translation?
http://www.listindiario.com.do.....x?id=83544
December 6th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
GB,
I dont understand why you think the yanks may trade nady and swisher if tex comes here. There is very little chance of it
————————————————————
I didn’t say a word about trading Swisher. I said NADY.
Damon in CF?
aye yaye yaye
When cash met with Boras, they did talk extensively about Lowe and NOT just Teixera. The whole Tex/yankees things may very well be posturing like the sox and CC. But the yanks seemingly would want tex more than boston would want CC.
It also could be the case that cash is trying to force the angels to up their offer to Tex by meeting with him. The angels may get anxious and worried about the yanks and tex meeting and up their offer. This would expediate the process – as Tex could accept a higher offer from the angels, CC would then lose the angels as another option and sign with the yanks.
i FIND IT nearly impossible to believe that CC has a third and fourth offer on the table currently. And even if it is the case, not a single media outlet knows for sure who these teams are. What are the chances that two teams make significant bids for the biggest FA this off season and no media can tell us who these teams are? Seems far more like CC’s agent may be posturing. This could be for two reasons – one, he wants the yanks to up their big and thinks more competition may entice them to do so. Two, Genske may think multiple other potential offers out there will bide CC a little more time as he waits for the angels and Tex. There is almost no way these offers are real but since no one can dispute it – it is difficult for the yanks to say its untrue. i CANT imagine the angels made an offer while tex is still out there and the giants may have made an offer but they dont have the money to approach the yanks 140 mil. So even if these is an offer, it may not be a legit offer. Any which way, iM very skeptical.
Who hits before and after Alex should not be a ‘lingering question’. The real question is not how much protection we can buy for Arod but how much protection we provided for the hitters around Arod when we bought him.
What kind of 30 million dollar hitter requires 20 million dollar protection?
Does Pujols need protection?
How about Manny?
We’re supposed to invest 32 (Arod) + 20 (Teixeira) + 13 (Matsui or a comparable player) into the middle of the lineup?
65 million dollars for the middle of the lineup?
Sounds like a lopsided team to me.
That Pat M is a pretty bright fellow.
Pat, he said it would be a blessing for Manny to play on the team since he was born in NY. He was saying that on the way to David Ortiz’s golf tournament in D.R., lets just say Manny is above what 36 ? he’s looking out for his boy.
Of course GB7 just blinds the rest.
Let the firestorm commence about Rodriguez being a traitor or ungrateful. He has made it official today that he will play for the Dominican Republic. He has a very valid reason for the decision as far as I’m concerned. That, however, will not stop the catty and petty remarks and articles.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb
“I am 100 percent sure that I will play for the Dominican Republic team,” Rodriguez said. “This time, there will be no doubts, and it is a dream of my mom’s that I intend to fulfill.”
There is a huge risk of signing tex right now because the angels may take the revenge approach and use the money allocated for tex to sign CC. It is more likely they would go after manny but it is clear the angels have at least some interest in signing CC if tex doesnt go there way (This is prolly why CC is taking his sweet time.) So if the angels want to screw the yanks over bad enough and CC wants to play in cali at a discount – signing tex could really hurt us in the end. That is the only reason i think signing both is unlikely.
Id rather go with CC, sheets, pettitte and a trade for a first baseman or centerfielder at this point. i dont want to trade cano for kemp and sign cabrera but i would trade prospects (not AJax) or matsui (paying most of his salary) or both to get a decent centerfielder. i think the offense needs a little more youth and pop. Matsu, posada, cano and swisher cannot all be relied upon to turn it around and stay healthy next season.
Thanks Brandon.
“Pienso que esta es la prioridad más urgente que debe tener el equipo para la campaña del 2009, necesitamos mejorarla, pues nos falló el pitcheo abridor”, expresa el panameño sobre el conjunto que por primera vez faltó a la postemporada en los últimos 16 años.
——————————————
This is the most important statement he added,
“I think this is the most important period for the 2009 season, we need to get better, well the SP failed” expressed the Panamian on the team as a whole missing the postseason the first time in 16 yrs.
Dave,
Exactly right. Vlad is basically a DH now, thus they cut ties with Garrett Anderson and no way would they stick Manny in LF for 3 years. They’re not keeping Vlad in the outfield so why would they put an even worse defender out there.
It’s CC or Tex for the Angels.
“I am 100 percent sure that I will play for the Dominican Republic team,” Rodriguez said. “This time, there will be no doubts, and it is a dream of my mom’s that I intend to fulfill.”
Welcome back Alex.
Bievenidos mi hispana
Brandon (TEIX IS NOT WORTH IT, GET CC !)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
December 6th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
“I am 100 percent sure that I will play for the Dominican Republic team,” Rodriguez said. “This time, there will be no doubts, and it is a dream of my mom’s that I intend to fulfill.”
Welcome back Alex.
Bievenidos mi hispana
————————————————————
I’m sure that rodriguez feels that “Mom” is the only fan he needs to satisfy. It’s doubtful that she’ll boo him for only going 3-4 with just 2 homers and 5 RBIs.
Brandon,
can’t wait for team DR vs team USA, fully stacked lineup and rotation going head to head.
“I’m sure that rodriguez feels that “Mom” is the only fan he needs to satisfy. It’s doubtful that she’ll boo him for only going 3-4 with just 2 homers and 5 RBIs.”
not enough to make to mommy proud? LOL
“can’t wait for team DR vs team USA, fully stacked lineup and rotation going head to head.”
Gonna whoop that a…
CB,,,You’re the best numbers guy here…So I wonder how each player ( Alex & Tex ) could improve being linked in the order….I do know that the inf defense % would improve significanty…..As for Bret the Hitman…Your name makes me think why would you take such a blinded take on this arrangements in the order…..I mean think, Babe & Lou, Mantle & Maris….Think up the 95 and Manny & Ortiz…..It covers and hides some of the diffencies that the line-up may or may not have….It makes everyone better….GB7, I did hear about the proposed new lightening bats…They’re not going to put in play…Way to dangerous, unless you’re a 56 year old still not letting go of the grand game….And I’m on record….Bo does Know…..What a talent he was…DAMN
GB
A few weeks of A-Rod working out with and talking hitting with Manny and Pujols is okay by me as a tune-up for the regular season.
“There might not be a more independent minded player in baseball, in fact.”
There might not be a dumber mind in baseball than damon.
Fixed that for ya.
A press conference to announce Sabathia’s signing could go like this :
“After careful consideration of family interests, the Sabathia’s selected the Yankees with their commitment for winning championships. We expect to find the New York area very adaptable and once the last pitch is thrown in the World Series, we have the option of spending the winter in California until it’s time to report to Tampa to prepare for a new season. We are now in the process of house hunting”. I wish to thank the Steinbrenner family, Mr. Cashman, Mr. Girardi, my new teammates, and above all, Yankee fans for their patience. If so selected, I’ll be honored to throw the first pitch at the new Yankee Stadium on opening day”.
“Damon in CF?”
Is it ideal? Of course not.
People have no idea what a huge liability Brett Gardner could be in CF.
Gardner could easily wind up being 25 runs worse than a league average CF at the plate.
If that happens its a disaster and will make it very difficult for the team to make the playoffs.
Having even one player that bad on a team significantly decreases the probability of making the post season. There is no way to simply “make up” for bat that bad even if you sign Tex.
If Damon has a season similar to what he did this past year in 2009 he would be 25 runs better than league average.
So offensively the difference between Damon and Gardner in CF could be 50 runs. Let’s give it a range – say 40-50 runs at the plate.
Damon projects to be around 5-10 runs worse than league average in CF defensively. Gardern around 10 runs better than league average. So Garnder would be around 15-20 runs better defensively. Probably closer to 15.
So overall, Damon would be a much, much more valuable player in CF than Gardner would even if Damon doesn’t play very well defensively.
The difference between their bats is enormous.
The more important issue is whether Damon can stay healthy in CF on a day to day basis.
That’s why I said that Gardner should play CF regularly to rest Damon, should play in late inning defensive spots and against teams like the rays that run alot.
Brett Gardner’s bat in CF could be an enormous mistake for this team.
People won’t want to believe this. But Tex projects to win the yankees an additional 3 games compared to Swisher at 1b.
Getting slightly above average CF like Mike Cameron to replace Gardner would also net the yankees 3 additional wins.
Given the budget I’d rather devote dollars towards Tex and make due with Damon in CF than get Cameron for $10M to replace Gardner.
But make no mistake about it – CF is a huge potential problem. It killed the team in 2008 and its headed to be the same kind of problem in 2009.
Rule 5 Draft is coming. Who will be the next Roberto Clemente, George Bell or Kelly Gruber to bring a big bat out of nowhere?
Here’s a link to the best players to show up since 1990.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....;fext=.jsp
“Imagine if the Yanks made the trade for Santana last year?
CC
Santana
Wang
Pettite
Joba
Thats an instant World Series team”
Put down the controller bro. If the Yanks got Santana last year CC would not be a discussion and Tex would be on his way to the Bronx.
“Put down the controller bro. If the Yanks got Santana last year CC would not be a discussion and Tex would be on his way to the Bronx.”
affirmative.
update >>>>
PAT M
December 6th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
CB,,,You’re the best numbers guy here…So I wonder how each player ( Alex & Tex ) could improve being linked in the order….I do know that the inf defense % would improve significanty…..As for Bret the Hitman…Your name makes me think why would you take such a blinded take on this arrangements in the order…..I mean think, Babe & Lou, Mantle & Maris….Think up the 95 and Manny & Ortiz…..It covers and hides some of the diffencies that the line-up may or may not have….It makes everyone better….GB7, I did hear about the proposed new lightening bats…They’re not going to put in play…Way to dangerous, unless you’re a 56 year old still not letting go of the grand game….And I’m on record….Bo does Know…..What a talent he was…DAMN
————————————————————
I hadn’t really thought about the dangers of a bat loaded with dynamite. I guess that having a batter that hit more thana few drives up the midle with the speed of Mantle, Frank Howard, Ellie Howard or Bill Skowren would make a pitcher run looking for his woobie. Those for guys hit some of the most ungodly drives up the middle that I ever saw. I do remember Juan Pizzaro throwing one up and in on Mantle, and on the next pitch, I swear that Mantle hit one back through the middle on purpose about 6 feet off the ground. The ball headed to center field and Jim Landis went drifting back and it hit into the center field seats in Chicago.
Always enjoyed Bo Jackson’s hustle and talent in baseball and football. I just never thought he could be as great as he should have been in baseball until he gave up football. Talent wise, he was possibly the most talented/gifted player since Mantle’s first 12 years.
Sorry GB I must have read a post incorrectly.
Damon cannot play centerfield – we would have to have swisher play center and damon play left.
Dunn is definitely another option if we cant/dont get Tex, Dunn could protect arod batting fourth and has a consistently good obp. he would have to play first again, moving swisher to the outfield. It would be an improvement over gardner and swisher to dunn and swisher. Unfortunately, dunn bats left but we did just lose two lefty bats. Swisher is switch hitter and nady is a righty which compliments dunn, damon and matsui well. Damon – Left, Jeter – Right, Arod – R, Dunn – L, Posada – switch, Matsui – L, Nady – R, Cano -L, Swisher – Switch. it provides an upgrade in defense (Dunn over Giambi and Nady over Abreu.) Gardner could replace swisher in center in late innings without really losing a big bat. Damon can play left reasonably ok. Then, we have decent power across the whole lineup with arod and dunn almost guaranteed at at least 40. Posada and matsui could hit 15 to 20 if they stay healthy (big IF.) Nady and swisher could be good for 25. Damon, jeter and arod provide speed at the top. No speed at the bottom but gardner could replace the weaker bats without much loss. Dunn replaces Abreu;s solid obp with a better one. If either matsui or posada stay healthy they replace giambis obp. Swisher also had a 381 obp only a year ago. Nady’s obp is a bit troublesome as is cano;s but the rest of the team could easily have 350 or better. Also, the team is significantly younger with Nady, swisher, dunn and cano all under 30.
Next year, matsui and damon are gone and could be replaced by Holliday or Vlad with the money off the books. Holliday is also under 30 which would give us a possible 5 players in the lineup under 30 by opening day. Nady can be resigned if he does well. Posada could take over part-time dhing duties with matsui gone and we could trade for a young catcher or hold out another year for montero if he is still catching. Ajax could slide into center replacing swisher who could move to the bench eventually. This gives us Ajax – CF, Jeter – SS, Holliday – LF, arod – 3B, Dunn – 1B, Nady/Vlad – RF, Posada,/Montero – C, Posada/Swisher – DH, Cano – 2B. I know i am dreaming with vlad in there too but even with him out of that lineup it is still pretty tough. It is also even younger with ajax, holliday, dunn, nady, montero, swisher and cano all 31 or under. It also has a ton of speed with ajax jeter holliday and arod and ridiculous power with arod, holliday, dunn, nady, posada, montero and swisher. I may be dreaming but this is a real possibility. Having dunn for a short term over tex for long term gives us the oppurtunity to move jeter to first in the end and posada to dh with montero or someone else taking over. Swisher and nady coming cheap gives us the money to pay for a holliday while incorporating ajax and montero to inject even more youth while signing and trading for younger free agents. This lineup rivals any in baseball.
December 6th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
GB
A few weeks of A-Rod working out with and talking hitting with Manny and Pujols is okay by me as a tune-up for the regular season.
————————————————————
It would help if Rodriguez, during the game could make his brain a void like the one that Ramirez was gifted with. Hanging around Pujos may give him an insight into relaxation at the plate.
CB,
So the reason why we must sign Tex is because of Brett Gardner?
Sounds overly simplistic to me.
And you didn’t answer my question.
Why can’t a 30 million dollar player make the hitters around him better?
Why do we have to surround him with protection to make him a better hitter?
What kind of 30 million dollar hitter requires 20 mil dollar rotection?
Does Pujols require 20 million dollar protection?
How about Manny?
Why pass up a proven clutch hitter like Manny and instead give 200 million to a hitter who doesn’t guarantee he will get big hits in big games?
Why Tex over Manny?
You’ll never convince me to take Tex over Manny unless I’m forced to put Manny in LF which I’m not.
***Pujols***
With Nady, Swisher, Damon and Gardner as number 4 in the OF you also give Gardner a chance to develop as well as alleviate the crappy OF defense. Gardner on his return showed better numbers across the board, granted the League would adjust to him etc but burying him would be a disservice to the team. I think there is a good chance of 275, 350, 400 from him down the road. Besides I want to enjoy watching the little jobber scoot.
Swisher in CF?
Aye yaye yaye.
NOT HAPPENING
If NYY is forced to go with Dunn instead of Teixeira, I’d rather have Swisher at first base. He’s got range, arm and is very good at digging throw out of the dirt.
CB,
What about signing Tex or Dunn, moving swisher to center and keeping damon in left. No offensive liability named gardner. No horrible centerfield arm in damon. Swisher was decent enough last year and would prolly be better than damon.
“And you didn’t answer my question.”
If you want me to specifically answer a question – ask me. I’m not a mind reader.
“Why can’t a 30 million dollar player make the hitters around him better?”
Because a line up is not simply an sequence of 9 independent events.
The probability of any event at any point in the line up is colored by what the results of the prior at bats were.
So Alex does already unquestionably make the players around him better.
Or didn’t you notice how productive Abreu was after he came to the yankees. Go back and look at what he was doing with the Phillies prior to the trade. There’s a reason why he was a complete salary dump.
“You’ll never convince me to take Tex over Manny unless I’m forced to put Manny in LF which I’m not.”
No one is trying to convince you of anything. I could care less what you think. I wasn’t addressing my original posts about Tex to you to begin with.
My posts about Tex were addressed to Pat M.
If you like Manny that’s fine. That’s a reasonable point of view even though you express it in an obnoxious fashion.
Re Dunn
Check Fangraphs.com a very good stats board. With his statuesque defense, Dunn translates to League average overall. The guy’s a butcher in the field complete with 175 SO a year.
Adam Dunn is a slug and he is feast or famine all or nothing.
Manny is a contact, situational power hitter all rolled in one, the rarest breed in baseball.
Swisher would have trouble covering a center field the size of Yankee Stadium, Fenway and Detroit.
Dave,
Swisher is not a natural CF in any way. He’s already said that he disliked CF a great deal and that it adversely affected his hitting. Given how bad he was at the plate last year, the last thing you need is to make Swisher’s life more complicated by playing him out of position.
Damon isn’t great out in CF but he’s not going to be so horrendous that his bat won’t make up for it.
Again – it’s not ideal in any way.
But if you go back and look at how Damon played in CF – his range isn’t that bad. But it’s ok. His arm is terrible – but you live with it. It’s not like his arm is a plus in LF.
CB,
Pat M.’s whole argument is that we MUST and I mean MUST find long term protection for a 30 million dollar hitter when hitters of his caliber are payed big money precisely because they don’t require protection and make the hitters around them better.
There has to be at least one clutch guy in your lineup that can get big hits no matter who hits before or behind him.
If that’s not Arod then let it be Manny and not Tex. Manny’s clutchness is historic.
Bret the Hitman
December 6th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Adam Dunn is a slug and he is feast or famine all or nothing.
Manny is a contact, situational power hitter all rolled in one, the rarest breed in baseball.
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He’s brutal in the outfield, hustles when he feels like it (which isn’t often enough for me) and is a disruptive influence to good order. You’re also aware that he strikes out 130 times a year, right?
I wouldn’t completely discount Cabrera this year. He might have gotten a wake up call if the party hardy rumors were correct.
CB,
BTW, I don’t mean to come across as obnoxious to you. You’re by far the smartest poster on here and you’re actually considered Pat M.’s argument to baby-feed Alex Rodriguez as if he hasn’t been baby-fed enough.
PeteAbe 1, SF Chronicle 0. Good job!
bRET,
Manny can barely play the outfield in yankee stadium. Tex is a two time gold glove winner and possibly the best first baseman in the sport – we have wang who needs good defense every time out in the infield and if we sign lowe, we need great infield defense. Manny cant play the field realy so he will have to dh and we already have matsui who cant play the field. Matsui cannot really be traded either unless we pay for most of his contract which is pointless because we still wont get much in return -so we may have two dhs both making a ton of money and neither playing every day. if manny does play the field in yankee stadium, he will cost us. Tex’s defense vastly improves the team while manny’s really hurts the team.
And the most important thing is age. I like tex because he is 28. He may not have hit his peak and over the next couple of years may continue to improve. Manny is 37 and well past his prime – he may not start the steep decline immediately but it will happen over a 2 or 3 year deal. Plus, he is asking for just as much as tex per year while being 9 years older and far more likely to get injured or decline. Also, the defense isnt even comparable.
Id rather sign dunn than tex at this point in fear that if we do sign tex, we may lose CC to the angels. But i would pick tex over manny any day of the week. And i didnt even consider how he would get along with the players and manager which may also be a negative contribution or his constant horrible attitude when he isnt happy and his laziness at times which will certainly have a bad impact on the many young players we have like cano and joba. And he screwed over the sox for little reaosn other than he didnt like being there any more – whos to say he wouldnt do the same to us?
CB,
I’m just frustated by the whole ‘We need Tex’ argument. I apologize. I wish more fans were arguing for Manny, dumping the last year of Matsui and investing more in pitching.
And I like Nick Swisher at 1b. yankees make a great trade for him and the Tex crowd has been dumping on him ever since.
It’s almost been systematically obnoxious.
Bret,
First off – making derogatory, snarky comments about posts I’ve made isn’t particularly useful towards having a conversation about baseball.
I must have read dozens of things you’ve written which are just flat out factually wrong or just wrong and I’ve never condescended to responding to one of your posts with a line like:
“aye yaye yaye”
This is no way to have a discussion about anything.
If you don’t like what I have to say just skip my posts.
And if you have an issue with something Pat M. wrote – take it up with him.
He knows more about baseball than just about anyone on this entire board. Orders of magnitude more.
Part of posting isn’t just rambling on with your own opinions. It’s about listening to what others have to say.
Try that some time.
Everyone,
I’m not putting Manny anywhere near LF home or away. He’d be the DH and I’d trade Matsui. I’d hit Arod 3rd and Manny fourth and sit back and watch Arod K in a big spot only to see Manny crush one deep.
Nobody’s dumping on Swisher playing first, but, adding Teixeira (I haven’t always been in on signing him until nYY lost Abreu) and addig Swisher to right field strengthens the offense but mostly the infield and outfield defense.
manny is a very old, cranky contact situational hitter well past the prime of his career. People were saying abreu was old and on the decline and he is 3 years younger than man ram. And the major problem with two dhes making significant money and unable to play the field with matsui and manny is the biggest reason manny will not come here.We cant bench matsui and his 13 mil because manny is better. And we are trying to get younger – this signing takes us in the opposite direction.
“BTW, I don’t mean to come across as obnoxious to you.”
You did. You came off as a complete jerk.
“I’m just frustated by the whole ‘We need Tex’ argument.”
Yes. That’s pretty obvious. And it’s unbelievably immature.
To translate your own frustrations on other people is ridiculous.
Your frustrations are your own. Deal with it rather than insulting other people as you’ve done on multiple occasions on this thread alone.
Again – if you don’t like what I have to say and feel the need to respond by being rude and frustrated skip what I have to write.
It’s simple.
CB,
I don’t mind if you correct me if I make a factually incorrect statement. Feel free.
PS,
Damon is a bad idea in CF. And by bad I mean BAD.
Green Barette,
Swisher in RF now?
Where does Nady play?
Let me guess, LF? Nady is as slow as they come. This idea of Nady in LF is almost as ideal as putting Jesus Montero out there if he can’t develop into a catcher.
This team finished near the bottom in defense last year and we paid dearly for it. So we sign Tex and move 2-3 outfielders out of position but Tex’ gold glove will offset the drop in defense?
Matsui’s value is near zero until spring training and teams see how her recovers from the knee surgery. His value is almost restricted to the AL after that. In otherwords, he’s untradable at this time especially at 13.5 mil.
We don’t need Texiera, we just need someone like him even if it’s for after next year. The only one close would be Holliday and he too would be the big money. Elsewhere the big clunkers are being phased out. Dunn, Burrel and even Abreu will be prorated at under 10 mil a year. Manny is not getting the rush Boras expected. Teams are starting to focus on defensive metrics. A run saved is the same as a run scored.
“He’s brutal in the outfield, hustles when he feels like it (which isn’t often enough for me) and is a disruptive influence to good order. You’re also aware that he strikes out 130 times a year, right?”
GB:
You sure you aren’t JP Ricciardi???
CB,
If we sign Tex, where exactly do you see swisher playing if not the outfield. You said why he cant play center but you didn’t make an alternative for him. I assume first base is what you consider his natural position but you certainly cant take tex off first. Where do you see him with tex on the team?
December 6th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Green Barette,
Swisher in RF now?
Where does Nady play?
Let me guess, LF? Nady is as slow as they come. This idea of Nady in LF is almost as ideal as putting Jesus Montero out there if he can’t develop into a catcher.
This team finished near the bottom in defense last year and we paid dearly for it. So we sign Tex and move 2-3 outfielders out of position but Tex’ gold glove will offset the drop in defense?
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Is it your dream to be a punk to everyone? Nady can be traded or put in left field if NYY wants Damon in center. If they want Gardner/Christian out there, trade Nady, a minor league starter and a relief pitcher for minor league middle infielders and outfielders. There’s a wide open market for Nady and young pitchers to cost cutting teams.
Fredo Corleone
December 6th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
“He’s brutal in the outfield, hustles when he feels like it (which isn’t often enough for me) and is a disruptive influence to good order. You’re also aware that he strikes out 130 times a year, right?”
GB:
You sure you aren’t JP Ricciardi???
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Tell me what part I’m wrong about.
i AGREE GB – matsui isnt going anywhere except maybe back to japan (just kidding.) He has a no trade clause and is making 13 mil. He just had a couple of major injuries within the last couple of years. He can only play dh so that excludes every NL team. The AL east will not trade with the yanks for a salary dump type deal. That leaves very limited number of teams none of which could really use matsui for any reason. pLUS, He is a huge risk to whoever trades for him. Even if we did actually get an offer for him, it would be nothing significant. Something like an unknown prospect or a bench player. We need a starting centerfielder or solid young prospect. Not going to happen. yOU CANT just trade any player you dont want around any more Brett. The other team in the deal has to actually want that player – no one wants matsui and his 13 mil for anything useful. Even if we pay most of his salary i doubt anyone of interest would come in return.
“If we sign Tex, where exactly do you see swisher playing if not the outfield. ”
Left field. I think he’d be fine playing in one of the corners.
He’d be a good left fielder given that he had enough range to play a marginal CF. Move a guy like that to LF and he’s a plus defender.
Swisher could also play RF.
CF is just very demanding and its unfair to ask him to play there.
I just want to watch some good fundemental baseball. I want to see a highlight reel ala Gardner stealing a HR ball. I’m tired of Damon bouncing a ball to 2B. I’m tired of doubles past 1B, I’m tired of “past a diving”. I’m tired of a hitter who refuses to move a runner over. It can’t all be fixed in one year but make an effort.
Nady would net us some useful prospects in return esp looking at his season in pittsburgh last season (he looked like a much better player with that 380 obp and 25+ homerun pace) but i dont like swisher in right. If CB is correct (which he usually is) and his subpar performance last season was partially or mainly due to the fact that he didnt like playing center, i wouldnt want him in right either. Unless he feels any better about right over center. This is my question though. If tEX Comes in and Swisher is moved out of first, where do we play him if he cant stand the outfield? bECAUSE there isnt any other options. Damon can play center and then, swisher could play left or nady could play left and swisher could play right. bUT I DONT see why swisher would like right or left more than center.
cash needs to work a trade for a pitcher if for no other reason than to put pressure on petite and the other fa
Cano has 5 walks and batted 317 in 41 plate appearances with only 2 strike outs and 6 doubles. I know this is the good minor league pitching but those 5 walks in only 41 at bats has to be a good sign. Hopefully, he could start taking some walks again like he did in 2007. i prefer his obp to go up more than anything next year. We all know he can hit over a full season but he has yet to prove he can walk over a full season. Putting up an obp over 360 next year would be a way better sign to me than another batting avg over 340. 320 will do just fine lol.
With Teixeira at first and Damon and Swisher in right, NYY could live with Gardner platoon in center field. Posada hopefully) back to his normal offensive years and good enough defense, with an amped up rotation and one of the top three bullpens in baseball, NYY would be a top four team in the league again. If Posada goes down again, they may need to get creative and put Cervelli in full time. His defense is good and he certainly won’t hit any worse than Molina.
Albadejo and IPK are also taking names with 6 hits and 1 walk in 10 innings and 14 hits and 10 walks in 28 innings respectively. Both good for a whip well below 1. GOOD STUFF for kennedy who is supposedly working on his breaking pitches and control throughout most of his starts.
“Tell me what part I’m wrong about.”
GB:
Don’t know. Statistically, I’m familiar with him and know defense is a foreign language to him, but I’m in the dark on any character issues he may have. I’d guess that goes for about 99.63% of us.
“Nady would net us some useful prospects in return esp looking at his season in pittsburgh last season”
No, he wouldn’t. Pairing Nady with Marte got Pittsburgh ONE useful prospect. Nady himself, a year from free agency gets you a B-lister or two, nothing more.
407 – I couldnt agree more. We should sign or trade for someone just so agents and free agents dont think we are getting desperate and will pay anyone anything they ask for. At some point, if we dont get anyone, desperation may start kicking in particularly if cc goes elsewhere. i think if we have at least one starter under wraps in the next couple of days, we will look a lot less anxious. i JUST dont know who would sign before CC – clearly not Lowe and possibly not burnett. I think sheets would be a good player to lay out a decent offer to right now and see if he bites – 2 years and 30 mil with a team option may just do it while he ponders his 1 years and a little more than 11 mil arbitration deal. i WOULD say the yanks offer would be a big upgrade to that. If not sheets, we could try to trade for a pitcher – i dont know who we would give up or get but im sure something could be done. id go after sheets the first day of the meetings and try to sign him by the second day or even before – it makes the yanks look like we dont absolutely need starting pitching anymore with atleast 4 possible starters in Wang, jOBA, hUGHES and Sheets. or we could push hard for pettitte at 12 mil although i think that one may drag out.
GB,
I would rather keep nady and put him in center than trade him for prospects and start gardner. Gardner is a better bench player as a late inning defensive replacement and pinch runner – something we sorely miss when gardner starts. gardner may put up 280/350 with 40 steals over a full season but he just as likely could put up 220/280/300 and really hurt the lineup. Look what happened with melky last season. And we cant bank on injury free seasons from posada and matsui and turn arounds from swisher and cano. One of those four will fall far below expectations.
If posada goes down the bottom of the lineup will become swisher, cano, gardner, cervelli. If cano and swisher dont have dramatic comeback years and posada is out for significant amount of time, we have to pray matsui is healthy the whole season. Thats why i dont like gardner starting – too many ifs. We have to expect the worst and pray for the best. Take gardner out of center and put nady back in and there is no real holes in the lineup at least to start the season. With gardner batting ninth, there is one big hole IMO before we even take the field. Id rather avoid that just in case.
fredo – maybe your right. Those two were surprisingly inexpensive in terms of prospects and they didnt exactly have overwhelming contracts so it didnt appear as much of a salary dump like abreu’s deal did. However, we did give up someone supposedly deemed untouchable less than a year before the trade in tabata. And he raked in altoona for the pirates doing a complete 180 from our farm system. So it isn’t like we gave up nothing.
Nady in CF now?
Nady trade?
Swisher in CF?
Swisher traded?
Damon in CF?
Nady in LF?
Pass on Burnett in favor of Lowe
As long as we protect Arod it doesn’t matter if we dismantle the whole entire roster.
Would make too much sense to simply trade Matsui and sign Manny to DH.
And Matsui is untradable based on what? He returned and played out the remainder of the season last year and showed he’s healthy enough to DH. He’s owed 1 more year and 13 mil in a market where Renteria got 2 years and nearly 10 mil per.
Fredo Corleone
December 6th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
“Tell me what part I’m wrong about.”
GB:
Don’t know. Statistically, I’m familiar with him and know defense is a foreign language to him, but I’m in the dark on any character issues he may have. I’d guess that goes for about 99.63% of us.
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You don’t think that reneging on a contract, screwing the fans, owners and team mates by not at least hustling more than half the time isn’t a character issue?
Nady is a few things, but calling him a center fielder is beyond exaggeration.
Manny is my kind of jerk.
Then, we are forced to play damon in center, nady in right and swisher in left with gardner the defensive replacement. Nady has played centerfield before so i thought it was at worst – an option. I just would not trade nady for prospects only to start gardner in center even if it improves the defense it could end up killing the lineup. iT SEEMS like trading nady after refusing to re-sign abreu or even offer him arbitration because we already had nady seems counterintuitive to me. Seems like cash had it in his mind all along that nady would replace abreu.
That’s no shocker. Two of a kind, except he can hit a baseball.
I love when CB opens up a can of whoop ass on someone.
“You don’t think that reneging on a contract, screwing the fans, owners and team mates by not at least hustling more than half the time isn’t a character issue?”
Again, not familiar with character issues. Doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. Of course I’ve noticed lot of people begging for Manny Ramirez (not counting you in this group), who was guilty of all the infractions you speak of.
The same ones begging for Ramirez would be the first ones to be whining about him not hustling. No thanks.
Green Barrette,
Manny’s heart is as big as his ego. That’s where you’re wrong about him. Boston wasn’t going to pick up his 2 year option so they were basically dumping him despite him being the catalyst on the team that broke the curse. The Sox handling of Manny was classless and the city of Boston is a racially charged place. I can’t believe Manny lasted as long as he did. It’s time for him to leave Lepraucan land and come back home.
Bret the Hitman
December 6th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Green Barrette,
Manny’s heart is as big as his ego. That’s where you’re wrong about him. Boston wasn’t going to pick up his 2 year option so they were basically dumping him despite him being the catalyst on the team that broke the curse. The Sox handling of Manny was classless and the city of Boston is a racially charged place. I can’t believe Manny lasted as long as he did. It’s time for him to leave Lepraucan land and come back home.
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BS. He quit on his team. That wasn’t the first time. He quit on Cleveland his last year nd for 3 of his years in Boston. You can suck up to him all you want. He’s a dog…he might be able to hit a baseball, but, he’s still a dog. He’s Barry Bonds in drag.
How will that 2 year option look to the Sox when the Yankees are enjoying his services for it?
Barry Bonds was all flash and played perfectly content on losing teams his whole life.
Manny wins.
Barry cheats.
No comparison.
Leprechaun Land? You are a punk.
Angry little white people. Manny took them to the pot of Gold at the end of the rainbow only to have them steal the Gold and run away before granting him one wish.
I would venture to say there are a few more Irish in NY than in Boston.
Fool.
Yeah but they’re more concentrated in Boston – smaller and more homogenous than NYC.
I wouldn’t want Manny serving me a dirty water dog at the Stadium let alone have him playing on the field
That quote from the San Francisco writer about the hounding New York media is beyond hilarious.
Guess this guy dosen’t realize he writes for the same paper that beat the whole Bonds/BALCO into the ground ten times over.
What a clown.
Any info you can obtain on Yankees future plans for Phil Hughes would be helpful. Trading Hughes even for Peavy would be a big error in judgement in my opinion. The future is with young arms not with the likes of Burnett or Lowe. I agree that a 2 yr deal with an option for a third would be great for Sheets who has great power stuff when healthy. Thanks Ira
Love the blog, including this post. But I think you misunderstood Jenkins’ reference to “mindless sheep”. He was using the phrase to describe the typical free agent mentality. His implication is that by joining the Yankees, C.C. would join the parade of free agents who chose money over lifestyle.