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Cameron to Yankees is back on

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 11, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

It won’t be today as both GMs are traveling, but the Yankees could have Mike Cameron early tomorrow.

The on-again, off-again deal is back on with the Brewers agreeing to take Melky Cabrera in return for Cameron. The question is whether the Yankees do the deal straight up and get no money in return or include a second-tier pitching prospect) and get some cash back.

The better the prospect, the more money the Yankees get. That could take a bit to figure out. But it sounds like this deal will get done.

UPDATE, 6:14 p.m.: The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel quotes Brewers GM Doug Melvin saying the deal is a “strong possibility.”

This could be the lineup:

Damon LF
Jeter SS
Nady RF
Rodriguez 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cameron CF
Cano 2B
Swisher 1B

Or something like that.

Comments

comments

 

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562 Responses to “Cameron to Yankees is back on”

  1. SamVa December 11th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

    yuck

  2. chris December 11th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

    I like that deal

  3. eddie s December 11th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    i was hoping this wouldnt happen. this guy is a washed up stiff

  4. Mike December 11th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    Give them Igawa for free

  5. Mike R December 11th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    It certainly addresses a big hole in CF. Gardner and Melky weren’t going to cut it offensively. Cameron offers excellent defense and good power to a position that we had 0 power.

  6. Mike R December 11th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

    The 3rd spot in that lineup frightens me still…

  7. Ace December 11th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

    I’d like to see Cano hit 3rd. What better way to get him back on track than to stick him in front of ARod?

  8. michael December 11th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

    cameron stinks.

  9. Mike R December 11th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

    I’m with you Ace, but he hasn’t proved he is capable of batting that high in the order yet.

  10. Josh December 11th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

    I know it’s probably a foolish thing to say given the depth, but the middle of the lineup feels a bit empty. Maybe it’ll take some getting used to without Giambi/Abreu. Nady in the 3 hole is a risk, considering last season was the first time he performed like an every day outfielder.

    Think this is it for offseason moves (position player wise)?

  11. JT December 11th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

    Damon LF
    Jeter SS
    Swisher 1B
    Rodriguez 3B
    Matsui DH
    Posada C
    Cano 2B
    Nady RF
    Cameron CF

    Keep the strikeout guys at the bottom of the order. Keep the guys who see a lot of pitches (Damon, Swisher) at the top. Gets rid of the opposing starter faster.

  12. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    “this guy is a washed up stiff”

    Yup, hitting 25 home runs and having a .809 OPS is washed up.

  13. Rob NY -- 2009 The Road to Redemption December 11th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    Rob NY — 2009 The Road to Redemption
    December 11th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
    ———————————————–
    You know what else is nice about Cameron being on a 1 year deal? If he goes by the contract year rule he will produce at least to his career numbers or better in an attempt to earn one last contract. That would be a huge benefit to the Yanks as his career numbers would pick up the slack for the loss of The Big G. 70 RBIs on the Brewers is what 75-80 on the Yankees? AND if he plays the same 120 games he played last year you get to see a decent amount of at-bats to see if Gardener is a 4th outfielder.
    I’d be okay with Bubba Crosby being our everyday centerfielder going into the season.

  14. Corey December 11th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    It amazes me anyone would think hes washed up……his Average isnt high, but he is productive.

    25 homers and 70 RBI in Milwaukee with a 25 game suspension and much less RBI opportunity in MIL than he would have in NY. Cameron could very well hit 25 HR, 90 RBI in NY’s lineup……and on a one year deal that would be a very productive year, .250 average or not.

  15. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    Cano works at 3rd if he hits like the Cano we want to see and not the Cano we mostly saw last season. It’s frustrating because past performance indicates he can do it. Hopefully the spin coming from Kevin Long is legit and translates to the regular season.

  16. AROD fan December 11th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    This line-up is appearing less and less sensical.

    I still can’t get over the Swisher at 1B idea.

    WHY would a team spend upwards of 200 million on payroll, with multiple players with record-setting contracts, and then waste 1B on Nick Swisher?

  17. CB December 11th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    That line up will score around 825-850 runs next year.

    Cameron is a very nice upgrade.

  18. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

    Regarding Cameron: I will not pretend to know whether he’s ‘worth’ the money, but isn’t he the kind of player the Yankees have won titles with in the recent past?

  19. vin December 11th, 2008 at 6:26 pm

    “I’d like to see Cano hit 3rd.”

    I’d like to see him show he can handle it.

    “Damon LF
    Jeter SS
    Swisher 1B
    Rodriguez 3B
    …”

    That’s the first post I’ve seen with Swish hitting 3rd… makes some sense, actually.

  20. AROD fan December 11th, 2008 at 6:26 pm

    Great idea to put Cano in the 3rd spot.

  21. Joe December 11th, 2008 at 6:28 pm

    Why not bat A-Rod third and move everyone else up?

  22. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 6:28 pm

    “I still can’t get over the Swisher at 1B idea. ”

    because Swisher has a gold glove caliber defense and 1B is his strong position.

  23. AROD fan December 11th, 2008 at 6:28 pm

    I’m definitely warming up to the Cameron idea, but I’m sure that IF we do it Melky will go nuts next season. (If we don’t of course he’ll be a dp machine).

  24. JMAC December 11th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

    I think the lineup has a glaring hole in the three spot…though out of the group I think Matsui probably makes the most sense. He doesn’t strike out much and is an above average RBI man. The only issue is that he will be deathly slow on the basepaths.

  25. Phil December 11th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

    Cameron is a big upgrade and an ideal stop gap. We’ve basically fixed the bottom of the order. Now we need to fix the middle of the order.

  26. AROD fan December 11th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

    but what about Swisher’s offense?

  27. PBL December 11th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    I feel like this is closer to the kind of lineup we had in the late 90s than the kind of fantasy lineups we’ve had the last few years, maybe it will work well. we will be a much better team defensively and hopefully our pitching will be better too.

  28. KAJ December 11th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    put Tex in that lineup and trade Cameron for a real CF and you have NO HOLES !!!

  29. Real World December 11th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    I believe it was Toby Harrah who said “baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show alot, but not everything.”. Well, with that in mind, I checked out Camerons career stats versus Torii Hunters, and I must say, statistically, there isn’t a ton of difference. Hunter is a better player, as he hits for a higher average, and K’s a lot less, but their OPS is virtually identical, while Cameron, despite the lower BA, has a higher OBP. Check it out for yourselves. Each is a Gold glove CF’er.

    Torii Hunter
    http://www.baseball-reference......to01.shtml

    Mike Cameron
    http://www.baseball-reference......mi01.shtml

  30. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    “but what about Swisher’s offense?”

    wow, 1 awful season in his entire career. he will bounce back to his 2006-7 form.

  31. Gleb December 11th, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    I’d like to see this lineup
    Damon
    Jeter
    Nady
    Rodriguez
    Cano
    Matsui
    Posada
    Swisher
    Cameron

    Decent speed at the top & bottom of the lineup(Damon Jeter, Swisher, Cameron).
    Middle of the order of #3)Nady, 4)A-rod, 5)Cano should be able to get it done.
    No pressure on Posada or Matsui IMO. Matsui being more of a full time DH should get his numbers back on track. As for Posada I think he’s always has offense down, if he can control the pitchers and work on throwing runners out we’ll be more than fine.
    *Hitting catchers are always a plus but not necessary.

  32. Rob NY -- 2009 The Road to Redemption December 11th, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    AROD fan
    December 11th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
    but what about Swisher’s offense?

    ——–

    Offensively, Nick Swisher’s career numbers outside of last year look similar to maybe even a little better than Scott Brosius’ numbers. They both also started out with Oakland. Swish is a baseball player, not a superstar. Maybe it’s just me but I like baseball players in the lineup.

    Oh, and to the guy who said this lineup won’t have any pop? A-Rod, Matsui and Jorge Posad all are 25+ homer threats. (A-Rod obviously is a 40+ threat)

  33. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    Swisher will have at least a .800 OPS next season.

    Nady too.

  34. Cockroach December 11th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    Cameron is garbage why do the yankees like signing aging players.Brett Gardner will be a 300 hitter if the actually gets a chance to play and he plays much better defensly Cameron lost a step. Shame on Yankees for getting this strike-out machine.

  35. BR December 11th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    Forget Cameron, he is not good at all anymore. He hit .248 last season, that is horrible. I’d much rather have Gardner and Melky in CF

  36. Al December 11th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    Cameron’s splits favor only playing him against lefties, his average and OBP are 50 points higher vs. lefties the past two seasons

    That would be a nice way to ease Gardner in, as he would only face righties

    Definitely platoon is the way to go with these guys

    The Crisp Ellsbury platoon wokred out well, neither was great but gave them a solid CF platoon

  37. JWEAV December 11th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    Cameron would be a nice fill in before Austin Jackson gets here in 2010. Swisher will fill in before Jesus Montero plays 1B in 2011. I see no need for long term superstars at CF or 1B right now with prospects coming along.

  38. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    Nady is a weakkkkk three hitter. I would have much preferred a deal for Ankiel.

  39. JUSTIN December 11th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    JT I agree wit u on that line upp maybe we can flip flop nady and cameron and to the people who say cano batting 3rd ..uhhhh we need some sort of speed after the 4th spot not saying cano is a speedster but still he can runn nady runs like a granny …

    cameron had 17 stolen base last season not bad wont stopp up the base paths like the big g

  40. Real World December 11th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    I’d like to add that while that line-up doesn’t look fearsome, it is very deep. Every player should hit a minimum of 15 HR’s, and it will attract a ton of walks. The K’s scare me though. Every player strikes out a good deal. We could see a lot of games where the opposing team’s starter K’s 10 Yanks. Tex would look good somewhere in there. Tex, or dare I say MANNYWOOD! Hahaha…

  41. JT December 11th, 2008 at 6:38 pm

    Anyone know anything about Cameron’s attitude? The resident Mets fan in my office said he was a major problem on that team. But thought he may be confusing him with someone else.

  42. Mike December 11th, 2008 at 6:38 pm

    I love how if we had gotten Nick Swisher last offseason, people would be considering him for the #3 slot in the lineup. Now all I hear is that he sucks?!?

    Swisher is a better hitter than Nady.

  43. Phil December 11th, 2008 at 6:38 pm

    Cameron was 10% better than average at the plate cause that .248 comes with some walks and XBH’s. He’s a big upgrade. Most of a player’s value comes from his being average. We ran out two below average players for CF last season and it was a big problem.

  44. Joeysdadjoe December 11th, 2008 at 6:39 pm

    Damon lf
    Jeter ss
    Cano 2b
    Rodriguez 3b
    Giambi 1b
    Posada c
    Matsui dh
    Nady/Swisher rf with both filling in at 1b,dh,lf
    Cameron cf
    LF,RF,1B,DH are basically a 5 for 4

  45. dave December 11th, 2008 at 6:40 pm

    I just read in another article that the deal is dead. I think that was the first time i got excited to see that concerning the yanks.

    Nady woud be horrendous in the third spot. Swisher would be reasonable but only if he had a comeback year and his obp went back up over 370. Doesnt cash realize that we have absolutely no one for the three spot in the lineup. We need a three hitter more than we need a centerfielder. Swisher can play the outfield and someone could take first or we could trade matsui for cash and clear out the dh spot. And Im sure there are other centerfielders that teams would be willing to trade as a salary dump or for prospects and cash that can bat third. There is alot of ways to handle this and i cringe every time i see nady or cano in the three hole – they just dont belong there – no speed, low obp and only moderate power. We either need to sign a four hitter like manny and move arod to three or trade for a three hitter who can play any of the outfield or first or dh who can bat third and give up a few of our truckload of useless pitching prospects and pay his salary. Arod can bat third or fourth but no one else on the team can bat in either position.

  46. Evan December 11th, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    CC bat 5th

  47. CB December 11th, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    “Anyone know anything about Cameron’s attitude?”

    He’s considered one of the best guys in the league. He’s widely respected as a teammate.

    In addition he’s very good friends with Alex and one of CC’s best friends.

    He’ll help in the locker room a lot. Alex isn’t super friendly with a lot of guys.

    Cameron is one of them.

  48. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    this is much better:

    Damon
    Jeter
    Matsui
    Arod
    Cano
    Posada
    Nady
    Cameron
    Swisher

  49. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

    Yankee lineup I would like to see…

    LF Damon
    SS Jeter
    DH Manny
    3B A-Rod
    CF Ankiel
    2B Cano
    RF Nady
    C Posada
    1B Swisher

  50. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

    Uninterrupted speed at the top and bottom of the lineup. Slow base runners in between.

    Johnny Damon-lf
    Derek Jeter-ss
    Alex Rodriguez-3b
    Hideki Matsui-dh
    Jorge Posada-c
    Xavier Nady-rf
    Robinson Cano-2b
    Nick Swisher-1b
    Mike Cameron-cf

  51. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

    Vinny,

    I would flip flop Cameron and Swisher. Swisher takes pitches.

  52. dave December 11th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

    we can always re=sign giambi and he can bat fourth – he would play for a quarter of his salary last year and give us tons of homers and a solid obp – that is a fourth hitter right there and arod could move up to third.

    Damon
    Jeter
    Arod
    Giambi
    Matsui
    Posada
    Swisher
    Nady
    Cano

    I dunno where everyone plays but at least the batting order looks decent at that point.

  53. nyyfaninlaaland December 11th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

    Cameron does represent a short term upgrade on paper, but consider this:

    His Offensive value is tied largely to his power. But Milwaukee is a bit of a HR park. Hitting righthanded in Yankee Stadium? Not so much.

    If his numbers look more like his full season numbers in the 2 prior SD years (likely a worse hitters park than YS) how do we feel? Cameron 2007: .243/.328/.431/.759 OPS, 21 HR, 160 K’s. Not a huge amount better than Melky’s 2006 numbers (.280/.360/.391/.751). Power vs. OBP. Guess you have to decide if Melky, at age 24, can rebound to that kind of production after ’08′s big decline. Of course Ajax is ticketed to replace the Melkman eventually, so a short term upside transition isn’t all bad. But Melky could develop into a solid 4th OF – emphasis on COULD.

  54. E-Man December 11th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

    Wow.. I really hope CC and AJ and Wang and Pettitte pitch like Joba every start or we’re not getting anywhere with that offense.

  55. Moshe Mandel December 11th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    Placing those players into Dave Pinto’s Lineup analyst, I got 5.416 runs per game, or 877 runs over a season. Just as a comparison, the Cubs scored 855 last season, tops among contenders.

  56. J-Boogie December 11th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    I posted a quick lineup on my blog earlier today. The only question mark I had was the 3rd spot, which I slotted for Swish, even though I’m not sold on him hitting there. It has nice righty/lefty balance. It’s kind of growing on me. I know it’s 99.9% unlikely to happen, but how good would the name Mark Teixeira look in the 3 spot?

    Damon – LF (lefty)
    Jeter – SS (righty)
    Swisher – 1B (switch)
    A-Rod – 3B (right)
    Matsui – DH (lefty)
    Nady – RF (righty)
    Posada – C (switch)
    Cano – 2B (lefty)
    Cameron – CF (righty)

  57. E-Man December 11th, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    However, if they get a real manager.. we might have a shot next season with an offense like that.

  58. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    message to all those believing Tex and/or Manny are ‘must’ signs:

    if Burnett and Petitte are added, we now have the pitching (starting & bullpen) and the roster to play small ball.

    other teams do it, why not us ??

  59. Todd December 11th, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    If Cashman can get rid of Melky, in addition to already dumping Betemit, I have to give him an A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  60. dave December 11th, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    If we have the lineup above and either matsui or posada get hurt or cano or swisher dont have comback years – the lineup is going to be supremely weak after Damon, Jeter, Arod and Nady. That is ALOT of ifs for a lineup that doesnt look too intimidating in the first place – heres hoping that we re-sign giambi or make another move after cameron

  61. Evan December 11th, 2008 at 6:49 pm

    half of the line-up is on Medicare.

  62. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    “Damon – LF (lefty)
    Jeter – SS (righty)
    Swisher – 1B (switch)
    A-Rod – 3B (right)
    Matsui – DH (lefty)
    Nady – RF (righty)
    Posada – C (switch)
    Cano – 2B (lefty)
    Cameron – CF (righty”

    if NYY resorts to batting Cano 8th, they are in trouble. And Swisher is not a #3 hitter

  63. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    Bret the Hitman, I left you a response to your post a few threads ago, I don’t know if you saw it. I will take more care before commenting on any of your ideas in the future.

  64. JT December 11th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    ” “Anyone know anything about Cameron’s attitude?”

    He’s considered one of the best guys in the league. He’s widely respected as a teammate.”

    Thanks CB… typical Mets fan. No idea what he was talking about. :)

  65. Drive 4-5 December 11th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Bret,

    I like your lineup. There’s a reason Nady has been with 4 teams in 6 years:he’s not that good.He’s nothing more than a low obp,high strikeout #6 hitter. You want the #3 hitter in your lineup to walk more than 34 times a year and have the ability to swing at strikes. That’s not Xavier Nady.

  66. Al from BK December 11th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    I like Cameron he seals up CF for Jackson in 2010. People are thinking Cameron is our CF of the future he is obviously a stop-gap.

  67. pat December 11th, 2008 at 6:53 pm

    Hank or more than Hank?

    “There are some in the Yankees’ organization who believe the team’s lineup is short on power – that the only real home run threat is Alex Rodriguez. That’s why the Yankees can’t be completely ruled out of the Mark Teixeira race. They would jump in on Teixeira if all of their pitching plans fell apart. It’s also why they can’t be ruled out of a pursuit of Manny Ramirez, who they could bring in on a shorter-term deal even if they did get Burnett.”

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....ees_e.html

  68. E-Man December 11th, 2008 at 6:53 pm

    “message to all those believing Tex and/or Manny are ‘must’ signs:

    if Burnett and Petitte are added, we now have the pitching (starting & bullpen) and the roster to play small ball.

    other teams do it, why not us ??”

    The problem with that is.. Joe Girardi. He’s already shown us that besides being more aggressive on the bases he really isn’t much of a small ball guy.

  69. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

    Folks why are we sweatin the 3rd spot? Vinny has it almost right. Its not going to matter much when you have Arod and Manny hitting behind the 3.
    Damon
    Jeter
    Matsui
    Arod
    Manny-2year deal
    who cares after that.

  70. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

    “I would flip flop Cameron and Swisher. Swisher takes pitches”

    Ed: point taken.

    btw, how do Cameron’s and Swisher’s speed compare?

  71. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 6:57 pm

    Bret the Hitman

    Is Mike Cameron the type of player who will, as someone said earlier, ‘pound mediocre pitching’ and disappear against the more talented pitchers. Does his plus power and high K rate suggest that he swings for the fences and feasts on mistake pitches?

    Bodi

    Cameron vs. power pitchers.—-.174/.300/.323/.623
    vs. power/finesse——————.265/.351/.477/.828
    vs. finesse:————————-.273/.347/.477/.824

  72. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 6:57 pm

    Todd,
    Not so fast. A- till he dumps Igawa off on someone.

    testing
    :mr.green: hulk smiling

  73. daniel December 11th, 2008 at 6:57 pm

    that’s not a championship lineup….and I still don’t trust that pitching staff….Not signing Beltran – stupid, not trading for Santana, and then signing Tori Hunter to play CF, stupid, not signing Manny in 2008 – the stupidest.

  74. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 6:58 pm

    Ace
    December 11th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
    I’d like to see Cano hit 3rd. What better way to get him back on track than to stick him in front of ARod?

    Well, it’s a cinch he won’t be hitting eighth. He would be excellent as the 5 hitter for now.

  75. harwood December 11th, 2008 at 6:58 pm

    Nady cant hit 3rd.

  76. CB December 11th, 2008 at 6:58 pm

    “His Offensive value is tied largely to his power. But Milwaukee is a bit of a HR park. ”

    Actually Milwaukee is more of a pitchers ball bark.

    Miller Park had a park factor of .945 last year.

    Anything under 1.000 favors pitchers.

    Yankee stadium’s park factor is slightly favorable to hitters at 1.040.

    Now the right handed issue is a factor. But when Cameron gets a hold of one he really drives it.

    And Cameron was not playing in a hitters park last year.

    Also – take a look at Cameron’s numbers when he was playing at Petco. There was no substantial drop off. In his two seasons in Petco he hit 21 and 22 home runs. Pretty close to his average.

  77. dave December 11th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

    I still like signing dunn depending on how much he wants as well – Dunn could easily bat fourth and arod could bat third. Still dunno how the outfield lines up. If we make the trade for cameron and sign dunn we are looking at a much more well rounded line up:

    Damon LF
    Jeter SS
    Arod 3B
    Dunn 1B/DH
    Nady RF
    Posada C
    Matsui DH
    Cano 2B
    Cameron CF

    Swisher – 1B/DH/OF – first sign of injury in OF, defensive replacement, bat off the bench
    Molina – Backup catcher
    Ransom – Backup infielder
    Gardner – speed off the bench, defensive replacement

    That is a solid lineup and a much better looking and relatively cheap bench. We have speed on the top and the bottom. Massive power in the 3 and 4 hole with solid power in 5,6 and 7. if damon, cameron or matsui go down – swisher replaces them and we dont lose a bat which is ALMOST guaranteed to happen so we know swisher will play almost the whole season if not all of it. The defense is good with solid replacements off the bench. If matsui goes down, we put swisher at first and move dunn to dh. If damon goes down, we can put swisher in left and keep dunn at first or vice-versa. A ton of flexibility in that roster.

  78. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

    “The problem with that is.. Joe Girardi. He’s already shown us that besides being more aggressive on the bases he really isn’t much of a small ball guy”

    I don’t know about that. Didn’t he play small ball in Florida? I don’t know, only asking.

    anyway, this team is now constructed differently. Built to win low-scoring games with superior pitching (assuming Burnett/Petitte) a younger roster, and Brett Gardner off the bench.

  79. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    Cashman from this point on should be know as (here we go again) :mrgreen:
    Money aint a thing.

  80. Al from BK December 11th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    dan- I’m sure you are the only one on here who would want Torii Hunter in his 30′s making 18 mil a year to play center. Beltran I’ll agree was a bad non-sign. How do you know they wont sign Manny?

  81. Vrsce December 11th, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    Good upgrade. Cameron is a real pro. Melky is not. This may send a message to Cano, Stop goofing off.

  82. PAT M. December 11th, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    Matsui should be in the 3 hole…..He very well may be the club’s best hitter, plus he’s LH, opens the hole on the right side……

  83. teddy December 11th, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    lol nady 3rd, i call that a bushleague lineup

  84. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

    CB
    December 11th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
    “Anyone know anything about Cameron’s attitude?”
    He’s considered one of the best guys in the league. He’s widely respected as a teammate.
    In addition he’s very good friends with Alex and one of CC’s best friends.
    He’ll help in the locker room a lot. Alex isn’t super friendly with a lot of guys.
    Cameron is one of them.

    OH WELL THEN, by all means, let’s pull the trigger. Give them whatever they desire, he’s going to help us in the club house.

  85. dave December 11th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

    Manny is already been offered a three years deal – he is NEVER coming here for two years. We would have to offer him 3 years and more than 25 mil per season because i think that is around the dodgers offer or maybe we could offer him 3 years and 75 mil and convince him that NY is better. But it creates a lot of problems – we have to move matsui And gardner is still in the lineup unless manny plays the field. tHAT IS exactly what we dont want.

  86. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 7:05 pm

    Nick in SF,

    Thank you for your consideration. It means alot to me.

  87. bru December 11th, 2008 at 7:05 pm

    this lineup stinks.

    we should of traded damon,matsui,signed tex,cc,sheets,pettitte,traded cano,kennedy & melky for kemp,signed furcal.lineup

    furcal
    jeter
    tex
    arod
    posada
    nady
    swisher
    kemp
    posada,miranda(dh)

  88. Phil December 11th, 2008 at 7:05 pm

    Cameron might walk a little more, as many older players do, especially if he doesn’t feel like he has to do too much. The Yanks will really be emphasizing patience again this year.

  89. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 7:05 pm

    “Cameron is a real pro. Melky is not. This may send a message to Cano, Stop goofing off”

    yup. It is why i promise you Melky was on the table (to Milwaukee). And Brett Gardner was not.

  90. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    harwood
    December 11th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
    Nady cant hit 3rd.

    YOUR’E right about that. That would not work at all.

  91. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    *YOU’RE right about that.

  92. CB December 11th, 2008 at 7:07 pm

    “OH WELL THEN, by all means, let’s pull the trigger. Give them whatever they desire, he’s going to help us in the club house.”

    Are you referring to my post? That was in response to a specific question regarding his attitude not in response for why they should sign him.

    There are numerous posts I’ve made today that lay out how Cameron is a signficant upgrade in performance of 20-25 runs compared to Gardner. On average that’s a two win upgrade compared to playing Gardner.

    That’s why they should and are making this trade. It makes them a considerably better team.

    The attitude/ locker room stuff is just surplus.

  93. Y's Guy December 11th, 2008 at 7:08 pm

    damon
    jeter
    arod
    matsui
    posada
    cano
    nady
    swisher
    cameron

  94. feefooo December 11th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    gardner has more value as a utility player than melky

  95. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    The pitching staff is shaping up nicely.
    However the hitting is still suspect:

    We need hitters to get on base for A-Rod to see good pitches with a good bat behind him. If this becomes the lineup, against a righty pitcher:

    Damon -got on base and stole bases at a good %
    Jeter -hit into the 2nd or 3rd most DP’s in AL
    A-Rod- probably 3rd- if no one on he’s pitched around
    Matsui-didn’t help down the stretch, can’t run- BIG ?
    Nady-Hit .268 with Yankees
    Cano-Must be better-can be .300 hitter again
    Posada-can he reproduce 2007 numbers- BIG ?
    Swisher-Hit .227 against righties
    Cameron-Hit .231 against righties

    How did we win 89 games last year with the injuries and relying on Mussina as your #1?

    Where are the Red Sox weaker, especially if they sign Tex?
    Where are the Rays weaker if they sign Bradley, and pick up one of the plentiful bullpen arms?

    CB-

    Answers please. tell me how we pick up 8-10 more wins, with the loss of Mussina, Abreu, Giambi!!

  96. Braintrust December 11th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    Send them Igawa with 5 Mil.

  97. dave December 11th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    trade for cameron, sign Dunn to a three year deal, finish the signing on burnett, sign sheets and that is my ideal off season. We will have picked up all 3 of the best free agent pitchers and one of the best hitters – atleast in terms of what we need which is high obp and power. We would make the team younger, more versatile, much sharper pitching and stay about even in terms of lineup quality pending injuries. Every day we can be safe knowing that if and when matsui or damon or cameron go down, swisher will be there to replace them. We can be safe knowing any day burnett or sheets goes down IPK and hughes will be there to replace them. nOT SO much with posada but you cant have everything. To me, cameron trade, dunn, burnett and sheets = world series contenders atleast on paper.

  98. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 7:10 pm

    dave,
    You have a point. We probably wouldnt have Matsui and Manny together. That would mean that one of them would have to field. Matsui might be too hard to move with his knee injuries. I heard San Fran is wanting to get younger. Matsui would do them good.

    Wasnt aware that Manny had a 3 year deal. Thought the dodgers pulled the original offer of 2?

  99. Braintrust December 11th, 2008 at 7:10 pm

    Yankee Trader,

    I’m with you, we need another bat in the middle of that lineup. Maybe either Tex or Manny. We have to look into trading Matsui.

  100. Y's Guy December 11th, 2008 at 7:11 pm

    “Answers please. tell me how we pick up 8-10 more wins, with the loss of Mussina, Abreu, Giambi!!”

    we do it with the loss of giambi at 1B, abreu in RF and with the subtraction of starts by rasner and ponson.

  101. CB December 11th, 2008 at 7:14 pm

    “Answers please. tell me how we pick up 8-10 more wins, with the loss of Mussina, Abreu, Giambi!!”

    Not sure I can play GM but…

    Add CC and AJ to the rotation along with a healthy Wang and Joba and a league average Pettite. Now the big issue there is that they lose moose.

    So those pitching upgrades are around 4 additional wins.

    Cameron is a 2 win upgrade on CF from last year.

    So I think those are 6 wins.

    The defense I think will be 1-2 games better.

    Now the thing that’s really hard to estimate is what the offense will do.

    That’s the wild card if CC, AJ and Pettite are in the rotation. Are they worse than last year? Same? Little better?

    But this is what the team looks like to me.

    I think it’s much better as long as you assume AJ will stay healthy and have a season in 2009 like he had in 2008. That’s a huge question mark.

    If AJ falters it gets tough.

  102. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 7:15 pm

    Great. We’re adding another guy who is closer to 40 than 30, who is another non-contact, K-boy, and who will be gassed by October.

    What’s more, a guy who’s old enough to be Melky Cabrera’s biological father.

  103. KEITH December 11th, 2008 at 7:15 pm

    In my opinion this trade is just silly. Cameron is another all or nothing bat on team full of them. For the money Camron costs ($10 mill+) he really isnt’t much of an upgrade over Melky/Gardner.

    I would take a high OBP – contact hitter over somebody like him.

  104. JT December 11th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

    “Answers please. tell me how we pick up 8-10 more wins, with the loss of Mussina, Abreu, Giambi!!”

    CC, Wang, and Joba. And swish should be similar to Giambi, with better fielding. Cameron, if this happens, won’t be the GIDP machine Melky was.

    Oh yeah, Posada and Matsui. That sound like 8-10 more wins? Sounds like it to me.

  105. harwood December 11th, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    Y’s Guy has got it. Without getting Tex Arod has to hit 3rd and Matsui is pretty lame protection for him. Cant see us not signing Manny, Tex, or Dunn even with this acquisition.

  106. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    Dave-

    I’d be in on Dunn, if reasonable for 3 years. No worse an outfielder than Manny. We will not get Tex, unless he tells Boras he wants to be in pinstripes for less. Same goes for Manny.

  107. Brian from PA December 11th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

    its amazing how many people are freaking out about this move. what’s awful about it? he’s a gold glove defender. he hits for power. he has decent speed. he’s friends with CC. we’d only have him a year then it’s hello A-Jax. What is so awful about this? Would you rather have melky or garder in center to hit .230 with no run production and occasionally make it on base to steal? And there is still Gardner there to plug in if Cameron struggles. I don’t see how getting Cameron is a bad thing.

    Some people would still complain if we had the best of the best at every position.

  108. RalphieD (Cant wait for 09) December 11th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

    “this lineup stinks.

    we should of traded damon,matsui,signed tex,cc,sheets,pettitte,traded cano,kennedy & melky for kemp,signed furcal.lineup

    furcal
    jeter
    tex
    arod
    posada
    nady
    swisher
    kemp
    posada,miranda(dh)

    LOLOLOL……..funny guy

  109. Stacey December 11th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

    WHY CAMERON?!?!

    i’d rather have a bullet arm from melky than him.

  110. Boston Dave December 11th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

    “Manny is already been offered a three years deal – he is NEVER coming here for two years. We would have to offer him 3 years and more than 25 mil per season because i think that is around the dodgers offer”

    source please?

    the only offer reported was for 2yr/$50M from the Dodgers. I agree that I dont see Manny coming to NY but you are throwing around a lot of claims that I have not heard.

  111. Joe Schmoe 2 December 11th, 2008 at 7:20 pm

    get this done
    sign AJ/Lowe
    kick Pettitte to the curb
    sign Sheets

  112. Mike R December 11th, 2008 at 7:20 pm

    “Matsui should be in the 3 hole…..He very well may be the club’s best hitter, plus he’s LH, opens the hole on the right side……”

    Agreed, he’s the only one in our lineup who can really fill that spot well. If he’s able to stay healthy all year and put up his usual numbers (.280-.300 25+HR 100+RBI) we’ll be in excellent shape.

  113. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 7:20 pm

    CB,
    Can you add wins for the bullpen being better and fresher this up coming year? This staff should be able to go much deeper into games which in turn makes the bullpen stronger. Thoughts?

  114. chaim jones December 11th, 2008 at 7:22 pm

    i think that you will see the yankees bullpen perform better than last season. cc and wang as well as pettitte and/or lowe are innings machines and i see the bullpen pitching significantly less innings. less exposure leads to better releif pitcing

  115. Guiseppe Franco December 11th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    There’s a lot of Yankee fans who really need a dose of reality.

    Neither Manny Ramirez nor Mark Teixeira are coming to the Bronx. It’s not going to happen.

    The strategy this entire offseason was to do two things:

    A.) Upgrade the rotation

    B.) Upgrade their defense

    This club has never shown any real interest in either Teixeira or Manny since Day 1.

    If the reports are true and Burnett gets signed, Pettitte returns, and Cameron becomes the new center fielder – they would have accomplished most of their goals.

    This team does not have an unlimited payroll – contrary to what many believe – and they are not going to add another big slugger.

    With the new and expected additions to CF and the rotation – this club is significantly better than last year.

    The only thing that might keep them out of the postseason is health because they will have a rotation that can stack up with anybody in baseball.

  116. chaim jones December 11th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    damn sos i didnt see your questioin before i posted that……
    very wierd……

  117. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    Bru,

    I’m surprised we weren’t more proactive about a great many things constructing the offense/defense this offseason. Number 1 for me is the #3 hitter spot. I wanted to upgrade Matsui with Manny but don’t see that happening now with an additional 10 mil on the books courtesty of Mike Cameron. Who becomes the 3 hitter when Matsui leaves? Cano? I guess they feel they can just throw an outrageous boatload of money at Matt Holliday after 2009.

    The next most crucial position to me is the leadoff spot. There are zero leadoff hitters on the market after 2009. I thought it would be advantageous to bring in Furcal now and avoid being stuck in a position where we have to either overpay for a leadoff hitter in a market where they’ll be scarce or go with 36 year old Derek Jeter as our leadoff hitter in 2010. I wanted to trade for a younger and cost-controlled outfielder like Kemp in order to avoid a huge payout to Holliday after 2009. Furcal I liked at 2b because he’s more versatile than Hudson in that he can sub for Jeter on occasion. He’d be useful to have since we’re so thin in middle infielders and Jeter’s range continues to be a concern.

    And finally. Closer. I wanted to trade for a setup guy this year who can take over for Mo in 2 years. It’s scary to think that if Mo gets injured, Brian Bruney and Damaso Marte would be the closer. Melancon will have an adjustment period that might extend past the expiration date of Mo’s contract circa 2010 offseason. To that effect, I wanted to trade Damon + Coke for Mike Gonzalez. This way if our closer goes down in 2009, we’d have an experienced closer closing. When Mo likely retires in 2 years, Mike Gonzalez would still be dominant and we would only require Melancon to compliment him rather than handle full-time closing duties 2 years into his MLB experience.

    Getting a young catcher now to support Posada would be nice. Molina was gassed last year with full-time duties and he’ll turn 34 which his old for a true catcher (whereas Posada was converted from 2b).

    So there you have it. 3-hitter. Leadoff. Closer. Catcher.

    Manny Ramirez, Rafael Furcal, Mike Gonzalez, a near ready ML catching prospect

    None of it’s happening.

    We’re plugging holes.

  118. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    CB
    December 11th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
    “OH WELL THEN, by all means, let’s pull the trigger. Give them whatever they desire, he’s going to help us in the club house.”

    Are you referring to my post? That was in response to a specific question regarding his attitude not in response for why they should sign him.
    There are numerous posts I’ve made today that lay out how Cameron is a signficant upgrade in performance of 20-25 runs compared to Gardner. On average that’s a two win upgrade compared to playing Gardner.
    That’s why they should and are making this trade. It makes them a considerably better team.
    The attitude/ locker room stuff is just surplus.

    Never said it was your reason for liking this trade, but it’s the Yankees’ incentive for doing it.

    This is an old boys deal: CC told Cashman he’d be a lot more comfortable if Cash managed to bring his buddy Cameron along for the ride. AROD has been pushing for Cameron for a year.

    The pitfall may very well come next year if Jackson isn’t ready. They’ll sign Cameron for another year, and he’ll be another year closer to 40.

  119. Phil December 11th, 2008 at 7:24 pm

    Graz: close on Cameron and Burnett.

    http://www.nj.com/yankees/inde.....amero.html

  120. CB December 11th, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    “Can you add wins for the bullpen being better and fresher this up coming year?”

    That’s a difficult one to do as it gets complex. I’m just ball parking these off the top of my head. Though the estimates i’ve given are all things I’ve seen from other models.

    I’d have to see that simulated on a computer and that’s not something I enjoy doing myself.

    For the bull pen it’s complicated as you have to project how many innings the starters will throw.

    The other thing with the pen – mariano had one of the best years of his brilliant career so it’s really unlikely that he could be that good two years in a row.

    I’ll give you an estimate on that later on.

  121. pat December 11th, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    Useless trivia- Now that Moose is retired, what Yankee on the current roster has the most MLB service time?

    Was reading a story about Goose and he was commenting that he hoped that players today appreciate what the players before them did so they could get these huge paydays. He said he was involved in all of the players strikes that helped get salaries to where they are today and the only current Yankee who was playing in MLB in 1994 during the last strike was A-Rod. I forget he was so young when he came up.

  122. dave December 11th, 2008 at 7:26 pm

    yankeetrader:

    With a rotation of cc, wang, Sheets, burnett and joba we pick up 10 wins right there. cc is better than moose last year and could easily win 20 and wang is better than pettitte last year – could also win 20 (thats 6 games right there.) Ponson and Rasner to Burnett and joba – please that has to be a good amount of wins better. Together rasner and ponson won 13 games and both had an era over 5. iF WE give burnett 90 mil over five years he better not be pitching his first year to an era over 5. i SAY burnett is good for 15 wins and a 4 era at worst and joba is joba – he could win between 10 and 15 games and pitch to an era below 3 in 150 plus innings of work. Sheets to joba last year would probably go to joba except that he pitched 100 innings and only won 4 games. Sheets has never pitched 100 innings or less in his career and even with a horribly subpar brewers lineup (before they got better) he always managed to win between 10 and 13. With our lineup, he should be at least a 15 game winner.

    So CC, Wang, Sheets, AJ and Joba can put up between 70 and 85 wins between them while Moose, pettitte, Joba, Rasner and Ponson put up 51 between them – add wang’s 8 wins and aceves 1 win and the starters gave us 60 wins. I’ll throw in pavano’s 4 lucky wins (with an era close to 6) and that is 64. Compare that to next years median of 77 and the starters should give us about 13 more wins than last season including wins gotten by replacements due to injury assuming it is aceves, hughes and IPK. 13 more wins gives us 102 wins on the season last year – good for the best team in baseball. Now this is all barring that we sign burnett and sheets which is a decent chance and even pettitte can win us 15 next year which is the number i assigned to both of them as highs. And i think our bullpen is just as good basically because it is the exact same and our offense might be less potent but it all depends on who we sign the rest of the off season or trade and major injuries. They really couldnt be any worse than last years offense no matter who they get.

  123. Al from BK December 11th, 2008 at 7:26 pm

    Since everyone is hating on the line-up let me take a moment to present the line-up as presently constructed with some modest predictions:

    Damon-LF- .300 AVG/15 HR’s/70 RBI
    Jeter-SS- .300 AVG/12 HR’s/75 RBI
    Cano-2B- .295 AVG/20 HR’s/95 RBI
    A-Rod-3B- .320 AVG/45 HR’s/125 RBI
    Matsui-DH-.300 AVG/25 HR’s/100 RBI
    Nady-RF- .270 AVG/25 HR’s/95 RBI
    Posada-C- .280 AVG/18 HR’s/80 RBI
    Cameron-CF.240 AVG/20 HR’s/70 RBI
    Swisher-1B.250 AVG/25 HR’s/85 RBI

    Now I think all those numbers I just threw out there were pretty fair and that doesn’t look like a terrible offense.

  124. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

    “Would you rather have melky or garder in center to hit .230 with no run production and occasionally make it on base to steal? ”

    Brian,
    That should read occasionally hitting a ball past the infield.
    Who knows. Maybe Camoron has a decent year and Ajax isnt ready yet,we would give him another year for Austin to get here. Its a win win folks. 25 homers last year. That replaces Abreus HR production. Now if we can land a Manny or a Dunn to protect Alex we’d be set. Assuming we land those pitchers.

  125. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

    CB-
    Thanks for your well respected input.

    Do you see any weaknesses in the Red Sox if they sign Tex, and the Rays with Price a starter and if they sign Bradley?

    If we’re healthy and play up to our better years, it’s still going to be tough to overcome the Rays hitting, defense and speed, and the Red Sox starting pitching and timely hitting with two MVP’s in Youklis and Pedroia.

    Not to be a Debbie Downer, but IMO we need one more bat to protect A-Rod in the lineup, especially if Matsui and Posada can’t contribute a full season.

  126. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    Brian from PA
    December 11th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
    its amazing how many people are freaking out about this move. what’s awful about it? he’s a gold glove defender. he hits for power. he has decent speed. he’s friends with CC. we’d only have him a year then it’s hello A-Jax. What is so awful about this? Would you rather have melky or garder in center to hit .230 with no run production and occasionally make it on base to steal? And there is still Gardner there to plug in if Cameron struggles. I don’t see how getting Cameron is a bad thing.
    Some people would still complain if we had the best of the best at every position.
    RalphieD (Can

    Umm..he’s NINETY YEARS OLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  127. joeman December 11th, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    they really need another bat….not liking Matsui at DH,he’s on the downside for sure,injuries & age caught up to him

  128. bdog375 December 11th, 2008 at 7:31 pm

    Doug Melvin is a great GM. Instead of being angry at Cashman for the Yankees grossly overbidding on CC, he sucks it up and gets a deal done that benefits both clubs (though this will benefit the Brewers much more in the long run).

  129. Brian from PA December 11th, 2008 at 7:32 pm

    after getting cameron we should sign ben sheets. then trade for prince fielder and ryan braun. then fire cashman and hire doug melvin. then move the team to milwaukee.

  130. ANSKY December 11th, 2008 at 7:33 pm

    That lineup isn’t really spectacular …

    Cameron’s a career .250 hitter.

    Swisher’s about a career .260 hitter.

    Posada’s Posada, but he’s still a career .270-something hitter.

    Cano hit for a negative batting average number last year although I think he’ll bounce back.

    Let’s just say those first three just have average years and either Cano or Matsui don’t bounce back, or Nady has an off year, or Jeter only hits .300, would A-Rod then have to hit .415 with 84HR and 243 ribbies or face the wrath of people saying he’s a prima donna, distracted by boinking Madonna, and ergo a waste of money that should have been spent on Manny? Or does he have to do that by the all star break?

    I know some will say all that about him anyways, especially those from Sox Nation. But that’s beside the point.

  131. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    Al,
    Good info. I would like to correct the Jeter .300. He bats .338 and finally wins the batting title.

    Dont forget folks. We went to the World Series in 2001 with a much worse offense. Pitching and defense.

  132. rick December 11th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    pitching is the name of the game……the yankees will have the best pitching in the division this year…..there offense will adequate…..they will be very competitive….there is a limit on how much money they can spend….so get over tex

  133. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    Al-

    I sure hope that’s the “ticket” but you’re looking at 205 homers from the starters- which would rank up there with some of the best Yankee teams of all time. Best being 242 home runs by the Yankee 2004 team.

  134. dave December 11th, 2008 at 7:35 pm

    Bostondave,

    via mlbtraderumors

    Ned Colletti’s comments today are along the same lines:

    “Scott outlined what they will need and we’re not interested in doing five years or four years, a long-term deal. We want the player back and we’re willing to pay a very high salary to bring him back — but short-term.”

    Yesterday, Ed Price wrote an article in foxsports about the dodgers having internal discussions about a third year – i cant find the source.

    Straight from the horses mouth today, Colletti mentioned no five and no four. They already gave him a 2 year 50 mil offer which he declined a while back. The fact that he doesnt say not interested in 3 – means something for sure esp since he declined 2 and they are not interested in giving 4. Im assuming 75 million because the original deal was 2 years and 50 million. I just added a year and 25 mil to that original offer. Additionally, colletti said in the comment that he wants to give manny a high average annual. iM THINKING they are sticking with the original 25 mil per year shtick.

    If the yanks want manny, they have to start the bidding at 3 years and 75 mil. That is a pretty high place to start.

  135. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 7:35 pm

    CB …. Your statistical models are fascinating in terms of trying to quantify the impact of player additions/subtractions on team wins. I’m sure that these judgments have value.

    But it appears to me as though these evaluations are reached in a “stovepipe.” I’ll try to explain:
    If the Sox get Texeira (my fondest hope), that would certainly enhance the statistical probabilty of increasing wins. In another stovepipe, the Rays are having success in adding strength at corner outfielder (or will when someone drops in their lap in January).

    But these teams play each other – a lot. One team’s “winning” ballplayer will impact the “winning” effect of the other teams’ acquisitions. In short, the impact of the acquired player(s), in your models, doesn’t factor in the offsetting impact of acquisitions outside the Yankee “stovepipe.”

    I’m fully aware that your not positing the absolute certainty of these prognostications. But I do feel that there’s a systemic flaw in the formula, in that it seems to presuppose a static environment amongst those mitigating factors (i.e. the other teams) which are in constant motion.

    Am I missing something?

    P.S. As I said a few days ago, if the Sox loved J.D. Drew, they REALLY love Texeira. I was, and am, sure that he was the only object of this winter’s zealotry.

  136. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    “Let’s just say those first three just have average years and either Cano or Matsui don’t bounce back”

    Stop there Ansky. My ears on the phone with Cash telling him i have reinforcements. Ansky grab your glove.

    lol. Boinking?

  137. Brian from PA December 11th, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    “bodhisattva
    December 11th, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    Umm..he’s NINETY YEARS OLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    Oh. good point dude. you’re right. what the hell was i thinking?

    i guess the fact that he’s 90 (35) and still hit 25 homers and drove in 70 last year while missing a month means it is absolutely ludacris that the yankees take a chance on having him for 1 season. They should also make 35 the mandatory retirement age in MLB, because as we all know, once a player hits 35 they are instantly incapable of putting together 1 good season.

  138. AS December 11th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

    i see all of these lineup predictions but i cant help but wonder what the melk mans departure will have on robbie

  139. eric in queens December 11th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

    I don’t mind this deal per se, however I don’t like Nady and Cameron in the same lineup. It seems like too many Ks.

  140. Thomas December 11th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

    Cameron >>>>>>> Melky

  141. Phil Parcells December 11th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

    Ugh!

    The Over-da-Hill Gang.

    Instead of water, they’ll be chugging liquid Geritol.

    The hard part is the league has been cracking down on dexidrine. By the time August hits, the vets are outta gas.

  142. dave December 11th, 2008 at 7:41 pm

    Im sorry i said he was offered 3 years because i cant find a single report about an offer- i guess i read those 2 things and like everyone else jumped the gun. One would HAVE TO assume that if a 3 year deal isnt on the able now it will be VERY shortly. Esp. considering colletti’s commments which were much earlier today.

  143. matt frags December 11th, 2008 at 7:41 pm

    So much for getting younger/cheaper. Ten million dollars for a guy who actually had a lower batting avg then Melky last year? Yikes. Is it worth it?

    Why trade Melky when his value is at its lowest?

    Why not go with Melky/Gardner? Cameron is nice but at what price? TEN MILLION? Yanks could always deal for someone during the season… Why not see what the kids can do?

    Does Cash realize you cannot have 10+ million dollar players at every position?

    Lots of strikeouts coming with Swish & Cameron.

    AND, Cameron is a .179 hitter in then post season. SO, where is the offense coming from in OCT? Matsui-Posada haven’t been able to protect Arod…

    Cash is banking a lot on Posada, Matsui, Cano bouncing back to what they were before.

    SO… why not spend 20 million a year and sign Manny?

  144. Al from BK December 11th, 2008 at 7:41 pm

    I thought me line-up prognosticating was pretty fair. Yes the team would not be a top 5 average team but it would have decent power and hopefully a high OBP.

  145. bomber 99 December 11th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

    Al,

    That lineup looks terrible, IMO. Lots of power, OBP,… but many more strikeouts than a normal Yankee lineup. No speed, not very good situational hitters or guys who put the ball in play, etc.

    Against elite pitchers, especially the ones in our division from BOS, TB, and TOR, we will struggle to score runs.

    We are also assuming that Cano bounces back and hits the entire year, A-Rod has a monster year, and that Posada/Matsui stay healthy and put up their career numbers.

  146. Steve in Bismarck December 11th, 2008 at 7:43 pm

    We need more pop. I don’t see getting out of the AL East with that lineup as it looks now.

  147. Stan December 11th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

    Great… just when we finally are going to assemble an above average suff and very good bullpen… we now have a weak, inconsistent lineup consisting of average and/or old players.

    God forbid Cashman actually assemble a balanced team

  148. Gabe Paul December 11th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

    So suddenly the Yankees have a hole in the third spot because they traded for Cameron? Was Cabrera your # 3 hitter? Um…. No.

    Let’s not fool ourselves into thinking Cash is done. There is a long way to go until Spring Training.

    The FA outfield glut needs to shake out a bit, then teams will further access their needs. More moves might be made then – at the least the Yanks will need to address their bench (or lack of)

  149. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

    dave,
    Your forgetting one thing.

    Headlines!!!

    Many takes a 2 year contract for less from the Yanks to stick it to the Sox every chance he gets. Its not business. Its personal.

    The revenge factor.

  150. TeKNetick December 11th, 2008 at 7:47 pm

    That lineup is going to be DREADFUL in the postseason against power pitchers.

    Will the bottom of the order even make contact?

  151. Brian from PA December 11th, 2008 at 7:47 pm

    this is comical. absolutley comical.

    how does adding cameron make the team worse? lol. everyone is NOW freaking out about the lineup??? was it better earlier today when melky/gardner was in it?

  152. jonathan December 11th, 2008 at 7:47 pm

    Steve in Bismarck, it’s not an amazing lineup but it should be good enough if the rotation performs as expected. Tampa didn’t have an amazing lineup, they rode the rotation all the way to the World Series.

  153. dave December 11th, 2008 at 7:48 pm

    Who wouldnt be in for dunn especially after this cameron trade? Cameron can play center, dunn can play first – we get a little speed from cameron, alot of power from both and a solid obp guy from dunn. Swisher serves as a versatile bench guy filling in for almost any OF, DH or first baseman going down situation. We have a player to bat fourth in dunn with arod moving to third spot and a player to give us speed at the bottom of the lineup in cameron. Our lineup is a solid mix of lefties and righties and switch hitters with power – from almost everyone esp arod and dunn, speed – damon, jeter, arod, cameron and obp from the guys on the top and in the middle – damon, jeter, arod, dunn, posada, matsui and maybe swisher. Swisher is cheap enough to back up a team that can fall apart from injuries and versatile enough to replace all of the guys worth worrying about getting an injury (except posada.) i LIKE this trade much better if dunn is to follow. They cant be done after this – WE HAVE NO, I REPEAT ABSOLUTELY NO CAPABLE THIRD AND FOURTH HITTER – with arod taking up one of those spots.

  154. timo December 11th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

    [quote]JT
    December 11th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
    Damon LF
    Jeter SS
    Swisher 1B
    Rodriguez 3B
    Matsui DH
    Posada C
    Cano 2B
    Nady RF
    Cameron CF

    Keep the strikeout guys at the bottom of the order. Keep the guys who see a lot of pitches (Damon, Swisher) at the top. Gets rid of the opposing starter faster. [quote]

    Swisher is a huge strikeout guy himself. His strikeout to hit ratio last year was abominable (135 SO’s to 109 H’s), much worse than any 2008 Yankee who got significant AB’s. Even if you go the “throw out last year” route, he still struck out a ton his previous two years with the A’s, with a a SO/H ratio worse than any regular ’08 Yankee except Giambi (and about even with him).

  155. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

    Brian from PA

    He actually will spend the 2009 baseball season as a 36-year old.

    When you are that old, each passing year is more like 3 years. The Yankees have given lip service to getting “younger and more athletic.” Getting players on the wrong side of 30 at prime positions is not my idea of progress.

  156. NITRO December 11th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

    You cannot to be a contending team and expect to have Swisher, Nady, AND Cameron in the same lineup.

  157. Sea Net December 11th, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    Nady is our 3 hitter?

  158. james December 11th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    NITRO Nady and Matsui as the 3 and 5 is the real problem

  159. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 7:53 pm

    Stan
    December 11th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
    Great… just when we finally are going to assemble an above average suff and very good bullpen… we now have a weak, inconsistent lineup consisting of average and/or old players.
    God forbid Cashman actually assemble a balanced team.

    Yet there are people on here who don’t understand why people like me aren’t bouncing up and down for joy that we’re bringing in yet another geriatric player.

  160. Matthew Cohen December 11th, 2008 at 7:53 pm

    Zone rating for center fielders in 2008
    #2 Melky Cabrera .917
    #9 Mike Cameron.892

    Assists
    #7 (tied ) Melky Cabrera 7
    #30 (tied) Mike Cameron 3

    Don’t confuse highlight reels are not performance. Melky looks sluggish but he gets to the ball. That’s what counts.

    Cameron is not an upgrade defensively. He certainly is offensively based on last year’s performance (.809 vs .641 OPS).

  161. dave December 11th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

    sos

    Good call – i havent even thought about it like that. Boras would be absolutely pissed but it could happen i guess. Manny did say he was going to the highest bidder but that could change. He kind of screwed over the sox more than they did him but maybe he is angry about other things. It could happen – Lets hope so. Imagine manny takes a 2 year deal and leaves 3 on the table to play here – who wouldnt welcome him back with open arms (he is from washington heights as most know.) i WOULD gladly accept him on this team if it meant 2 years and showing up the sox. And i would cheer for him every day.

  162. Jbomb December 11th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    What happens when Cameron goes down to injury? Which WILL happen. Who fills in? He may hit 20 HRs next year but he’s also a strike out artist.

    Trade IPK,MELKY AND AUSTIN JACKSON for MATT KEMP!

    CAMERON’S SO OOOOLLLLLDDDDD!

  163. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    matt frags
    December 11th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
    So much for getting younger/cheaper. Ten million dollars for a guy who actually had a lower batting avg then Melky last year? Yikes. Is it worth it?
    Why trade Melky when his value is at its lowest?
    Why not go with Melky/Gardner? Cameron is nice but at what price? TEN MILLION? Yanks could always deal for someone during the season… Why not see what the kids can do?
    Does Cash realize you cannot have 10+ million dollar players at every position?
    Lots of strikeouts coming with Swish & Cameron.
    AND, Cameron is a .179 hitter in then post season. SO, where is the offense coming from in OCT? Matsui-Posada haven’t been able to protect Arod…
    Cash is banking a lot on Posada, Matsui, Cano bouncing back to what they were before.
    SO… why not spend 20 million a year and sign Manny?

    I’M WITH YOU. At least Manny is OLD and GREAT.

  164. chaim jones December 11th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    i think it comes down to whether you buy into the organizational decision to put the emphasis on run prevention. cc, aj, cameron, swisher…every move reduces runs scored.

    true the offense isnt as good, but if matsui and posada are healthy, its still a damn good lineup. and they will be winning alot more games with pitching and defense.

    personally im happy to see it.

  165. CB December 11th, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    “Do you see any weaknesses in the Red Sox if they sign Tex, and the Rays with Price a starter and if they sign Bradley?”

    In a certain way Tex only makes the Sox marginally better because they were already so strong at the corners when Youkilis and Lowell were healthy. So his addition is a bit strange.

    Youkilis will likely regress next year. So adding tex will help make up for youkilis not being quite as good and for Lowell being hurt I suppose.

    But overall the sox really don’t have many weakenesses. The only really concerning one is their bull pen – it’s really not that good. Perhaps they’ll do it later but I’ve been surprised they haven’t done more to upgrade it unless they plan on finding a 5th starter, putting masterson in the pen and believing Dan Bard will be ready sometime during the season.

    The other weak point the sox have is CF. There’s no Crisp around anymore so Ellsbury will have to produce. I didn’t like how his season went and I could see him being a fair amount below average.

    Last thing – will Dice-k’s magic act end? It’s almost impossible that he should be as successful as he was last year given how many runners he allows. I think he’ll regress this year.

    But it’s marginal stuff. They are a solid team.

    Bradley will help the Rays – but that assumes he’ll stay healthy and keep it together mentally. Don’t think they’ll have enough money for him. But even with him they’ll still lack offense.

    Their other big weakness remains – bull pen isn’t very good.

    And overall everything broke perfectly for the rays last year. I could see them falling back just due to regression to their expected performance.

    But on the whole the division is brutal. You basically have to build a 95 win team just to feel somewhat comfortable that you can make the playoffs.

    The yankees aren’t there yet.

    If there plan is to really go all in over the next three years they will need another bat.

    It’s painful to say – but to be honest – Manny Ramirez is the player who will increase their probability of winning the world series the most at this point.

    It’s a high risk move. But the yanks have been willing to take one high risk after another – CC for 7 years, AJ, etc.

    But I don’t know if that’s practical.

  166. ZMAN7777 December 11th, 2008 at 7:58 pm

    Bodhisattva has it right. Cameron is old and expensive. What’s also scary is that the Yankees with speed are all 33+. I’m not saying Gardner is the perfect answer, but he’s cheap and he MIGHT have upside. Cameron is expensive and only has downside. Again, it’s all stopgap mentality.

  167. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 7:59 pm

    Jbomb
    December 11th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
    What happens when Cameron goes down to injury? Which WILL happen. Who fills in? He may hit 20 HRs next year but he’s also a strike out artist.
    Trade IPK,MELKY AND AUSTIN JACKSON for MATT KEMP!
    CAMERON’S SO OOOOLLLLLDDDDD!

    Yankee policy: we are not allowed to have outfielders under the age of 30. Infielders under 30 is barely tolerated: thus the movement to get rid of Cano.

  168. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 8:00 pm

    bodhisattva, well, who would you suggest the Yankees get to play center next year? It’s a one year move. In 2010 Jackson should be ready to take over.

  169. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    “Damon LF
    Jeter SS
    Swisher 1B
    Rodriguez 3B
    Matsui DH
    Posada C
    Cano 2B
    Nady RF
    Cameron CF

    Keep the strikeout guys at the bottom of the order. Keep the guys who see a lot of pitches (Damon, Swisher) at the top. Gets rid of the opposing starter faster.”

    Couldn’t agree with you more, and was just about to propose the same lineup, except I think Nady or Cameron would have to move up vs RHP. Otherwise, it’s too many lefties in a row.

    But the idea of Nady hitting 3rd, with how little he gets on base – yikes. Don’t know why anyone would even suggest such a thing.

    Anyway, I’m not jumping out of my seat about Cameron, but he seems like a decent stopgap. He’s right handed, won’t embarrass himself defensively and has been above average his entire career. Seems like more or less what we need right now.

    I hope Girardi isn’t as married to him as the starting CF as Torre would have been though, because I do want to see Brett get plenty of chances too.

  170. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    Stopgap mentality is write. This offense/defense is a carcass covered with band aids.

  171. ZMAN7777 December 11th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    Also, anyone who expects Matsui to make it through an entire season is kidding him/herself. He’s one awkward swing from a long DL stint.

  172. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 8:04 pm

    Kemp would be nice…but I think Ankiel is a much more feasible (cheaper) option at this point…Plus the dude can flat out rake.

  173. CB December 11th, 2008 at 8:04 pm

    “I’m fully aware that your not positing the absolute certainty of these prognostications. But I do feel that there’s a systemic flaw in the formula, in that it seems to presuppose a static environment amongst those mitigating factors (i.e. the other teams) which are in constant motion.

    Am I missing something?”

    Sure. These are all context neutral predictions rather than specific, head to head match ups.

    If you wanted to you could easily run simulations of head to head match ups and see how they would go. You could simulate the unbalanced schedule for example.

    But that’s kind of an ancillary issue as you really can’t predict those kind of things with that kind of fine grain when you are talking about one team vs. another or comparisons.

    These are estimates that assume a certain league average performance over the long haul of a season.

    That’s it – estimates.

    But the teams are clearly making moves with each other in mind.

    That’s a big reason for the yanks interest in Burnett. He completely shuts down the Sox. I have no doubt that they are going to pay him 17M with the idea of going up to a three game series in Fenway and throwing CC, Burnett and Joba in those games.

    So that’s an example of the team specific move. If one of those additional wins AJ provides comes against the sox all the better.

    Though I find it ironic that this is your take on things in terms of estimates in a “static environment.”

    What do you suppose Bill James and Theo are doing right now?

  174. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:04 pm

    “ZMAN7777
    December 11th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
    Bodhisattva has it right. Cameron is old and expensive. What’s also scary is that the Yankees with speed are all 33+. I’m not saying Gardner is the perfect answer, but he’s cheap and he MIGHT have upside. Cameron is expensive and only has downside.”

    Wait a minute, I’m confused. How does the addition of Cameron serve to remove Gardner as an option next year?

  175. Jbomb December 11th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    The Yankees are becoming the AAA team of AL East. Just a place for old injured guys to hang their gloves.
    I don’t understand and never have understood why Cashmans had this love affair with Cameron.

    He’s been trying to get him for three years now, looks like he’ll finally get his way.

  176. Laura December 11th, 2008 at 8:06 pm

    ” Infielder Wilson Betemit and the Chicago White Sox agreed Thursday to a one-year, $1.3 million contract.”

    That’s $1 million too much.

  177. ZMAN7777 December 11th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    “Wait a minute, I’m confused. How does the addition of Cameron serve to remove Gardner as an option next year?”

    Are you going to pay $10 million to Cameron for 200 – 300 ABs? Hardly. He’s going to displace Gardner. Come on!

  178. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    Matthew Cohen
    December 11th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
    Zone rating for center fielders in 2008
    #2 Melky Cabrera .917
    #9 Mike Cameron.892
    Assists
    #7 (tied ) Melky Cabrera 7
    #30 (tied) Mike Cameron 3
    Don’t confuse highlight reels are not performance. Melky looks sluggish but he gets to the ball. That’s what counts.
    Cameron is not an upgrade defensively. He certainly is offensively based on last year’s performance (.809 vs .641 OPS).

    You will never convince people of this, but you hit the nail on the head. Body type and looking “sluggish” has a great deal to do with the false perception that Cabrera is an average or even poor outfielder.

    He is excellent, and has enough of a combination of jump/speed to patrol Yankee Stadium center field very effectively, to say nothing of his arm.

  179. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    We have fallen well short of a championship every year since 2004 and every offseason since 2004 we have seen the chemistry in the lineup basically unaltered. We see the defense virtually the same.

    We scored the 7th most runs in baseball last year and we have a total of 2.5 new faces. Cameron. Swisher. Nady.

    Once again, this team needed a major overhaul and what did we get instead? We got these safety moves that do nothing to drastically change the look of the team. It’s going to be more of the same out there: inconsistency, old age, injury, complacency and disconnected individual performers in the batting order.

    Cameron is just another reminder that this team will never ever drastically change no matter how much we need it.

  180. Kevin December 11th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

    I can’t believe anyone is dissing this trade when would give up Melky (so, practically nothing) and get Cameron on a one year, 10 million dollar deal. Not a bad price for a solid player who still has some speed and power and can man center along with Gardner. How could you argue with a deal that replaces Melky with Mike Cameron?

  181. Pauly December 11th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    What do you guys think about the idea being kicked around that the Yanks’ wanted to break up Cano and Cabrera? I heard those two were bad influences on one another after Bowa left. Maybe Robbie will get his act together now that he sees his buddy being traded.

  182. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    CB, what’s your take on Zone rating, is it a good evaluation of defense?

  183. Matthew Cohen December 11th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    3 years of Melky – the trend is not your friend

    2006 2007 2008

    AB 460 545 414
    B 56 43 29
    K 59 68 59
    HR 7 8 8
    Hits 129 149 103
    Non-HR Hits 122 141 95
    PA 516 588 443
    BIP 394 469 347
    BABIP 0.310 0.301 0.274
    BB/PA 10.9% 7.3% 6.5%
    K/PA 11.4% 11.6% 13.3%
    OBP assuming .300 BABIP 0.351 0.326 0.319

  184. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    Techincally, the Yanks would still be under payroll if acquired Teixeria. let’s say Burnett accepted our offer, so 16 a year for him. Sign Sheets for 3/45, so 15 a year for him. 16 + 15 + 23 (CC) + 25 (Teixeria) = 79 million. the Yanks could afford him, and keep the team from being a $200 million team.

  185. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 8:11 pm

    BBB
    December 11th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
    “ZMAN7777
    December 11th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
    Bodhisattva has it right. Cameron is old and expensive. What’s also scary is that the Yankees with speed are all 33+. I’m not saying Gardner is the perfect answer, but he’s cheap and he MIGHT have upside. Cameron is expensive and only has downside.”

    Wait a minute, I’m confused. How does the addition of Cameron serve to remove Gardner as an option next year?

    How does it not? This is the Yankees, my friend. They are not going to give $10M to a player and have him platoon with a farmhand, even if that’s what’s best for the team.

    The Gardner era is officially over, except as a pinch runner, 4th OF.

  186. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 8:13 pm

    “That’s $1 million too much.”

    Damn batboys are getting paid 300k a year? Im in the wrong business. Wasnt there someone here that was a brewers batboy in the 80′s? Bian maybe?

  187. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:13 pm

    “Are you going to pay $10 million to Cameron for 200 – 300 ABs? Hardly. He’s going to displace Gardner. Come on!”

    So you think the Yankees are counting on Matsui as the 4th OF? Somehow, I doubt that.

    I don’t understand why everyone is so down on this Cameron deal. It’s a 1 year stopgap and it’s remarkably better than what they had last year in center, is it not? No, it isn’t anything to write home about, but a STOPGAP, by definition, rarely is.

    Sure Ankiel would be more productive, but he’s yet another left hander on a team that already has far too many, he doesnt seem to get on base much more than Cameron, and the price in talent would be way higher. Plus, I shudder to imagine the whining and complaining on this blog when whatever pitching prospects we sent into Dave Duncan’s Lair O’Greatness were appearing in back to back All Star games for the Cards a few years down the line.

  188. Jbomb December 11th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    Why don’t we just have the lineup from OLDTIMERS DAY play for us?

  189. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    I’m not saying Cameron and Gardner will platoon, but let’s be real here; as of now, Gardner hasn’t earned the chance to be half of a platoon. But he will be the 4th OF and if he does well, he will get some starts. Girardi isn’t Torre, guys.

  190. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    BBB,

    Kennedy was the price for Ankiel. A little steep if you ask me.

  191. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    CB – Thanks for the reply.

    FYI, Bill James and Theo are performing marvelously esoteric machinations to withstand the onslaught of The Evil Empire (unless Theo is with John Henry, stacking up $100 bills for delivery to Texeira).

    P.S. Might be wishful thinking, but the projected Yankee lineup seems pretty tame. A lot is expected from older, often injured players who are trending downward.

  192. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    Folks Cashman isnt done revamping the offense. Its early December and the winter meeting arent the deadline on free agent signings and trades. Its not over.

  193. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    Correction: We scored the 7th most runs in the AL last year.

  194. AROD fan December 11th, 2008 at 8:17 pm

    It is strange when we seem to keep trading for old and expensive players for no apparent reason.

    Can someone with a knowledge about revenue sharing and baseball economics comment on this? Is there some economic benefit for MLB to dump all the old expensive players on the Yankees and some economic reason for the Yankees to welcome it?

  195. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 8:18 pm

    “P.S. Might be wishful thinking, but the projected Yankee lineup seems pretty tame. A lot is expected from older, often injured players who are trending downward.”

    Sounds like objectivity to me.

  196. ZMAN7777 December 11th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    S.o.S. — I sure hope you’re right. Swisher and Cameron aren’t going to make anyone sweat if they’re everyday starters. Matsui is an aging question mark. Nady is still a bit iffy. Who knows what to expect from Posada. Lots of questions; few answers.

  197. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    “Kennedy was the price for Ankiel. A little steep if you ask me.”

    Yep, not worth a year of Ankiel, and is a Boras client.

  198. CB December 11th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    “what’s your take on Zone rating, is it a good evaluation of defense?”

    No it’s not the best. It’s chief advantage is that it’s available in real time during the season. But it’s not great.

    Dewan’s +/- is probably the best. But that only comes out at the end of the season. Ultimate zone rating and probabilistic model of range are also both good.

    In general I look at all of them to get a sense of where they agree and disagree and couple that with what the game looks like.

    I think the biggest thing defensive statistics tell you is that defense is very, very important – much more so than is commonly believed and it can have huge impacts on how valuable players are, particularly ones who are above average to good with their bats but not outstanding.

    Look at everything. They all give you slightly different information.

    Defense is more like a puzzle than a single number/ measurement.

  199. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 11th, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    I will be happy with Cameron. I’ll be happy with his defense. A 997 RF? I’ll take that every time.

  200. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    “Not a bad price for a solid player who still has some speed and power and can man center along with Gardner. How could you argue with a deal that replaces Melky with Mike Cameron?”

    Finally someone is talking some sense.

    I guess many people here would not be satisfied unless the Yankees could acquire Matt Kemp (for Melky, no less) as a stopgap.

    STOPGAPS ARE SO NAMED FOR A REASON, GUYS! I could see the complaints if the Yankees were assuming Cameron’s 3 year contract, but for crying out loud, everyone is always (rightly) talking about how the Yankees need to get younger and more athletic in the field; well Cameron is a TRANSITION to a player who embodies all those attributes. You can’t expect it to happen overnight!

  201. ZMAN7777 December 11th, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    We could always bring back Minnie Minoso. Doesn’t he like to make an appearance once each decade? He would be among contemporaries on this team.

  202. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

    Ankiel is only going to get better IMO. And I would give up Kennedy for him. Not because I’m down on him, but because he will rot in AAA for years to come anyway. The Yankee hierarchy has clearly lost faith in him, and they are throwing out multi-year deals to anyone with a live arm. Apparently the plan to get younger and cheaper was thrown out the window the one year we miss the playoffs.

    But back to Ankiel. He plays a very good CF, has a rocket arm, and I think he will project out to be a .290/30/100 guy with a gold glove or two. When Ajax comes up, one of them can slide to a corner, making the outfield defense significantly better than it is now. And if Kennedy can be had without IPK, it’s a no-brainer. How bout their choice of Damon/Nady plus Veras and a lesser pitching prospect or two?

  203. Mike R December 11th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

    “Why don’t we just have the lineup from OLDTIMERS DAY play for us?”

    I’d definitely take Paul O’Neill in RF :)

  204. Jbomb December 11th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

    If you want an old centerfielder fine but why not Bernie. Much rather have Old Bernie Williams than Old Mike Cameron.

  205. Kevin S. December 11th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

    Cameron isn’t the best option. But, if all it takes to get him is Melky then I’m not strongly opposed. I would rather explore deals for Ryan Spilborghs, Rick Ankiel, or Delmon Young. Cameron brings home runs(25 in ’08), but that’s about it. His OBP is always around .330. He has moderate speed and is a 15 or 20 stolen base guy, but he is also a former PED guy and is 36. True, we’d just have him as a one year stop-gap, but there are better stop-gaps out there. And the rumors about including Hall better be false. Bill Hall is terrible.

  206. Gabagoo(CC IS MY BOY) December 11th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    this from mlb trade rumers

    7:18: Mark Bowman at MLB.com says it’s down to the Braves or the Yankees for Burnett. Interestingly, he nots that A.J. might not necessarily want to be an “ace” of a staff like he would be in Atlanta. He has the Yanks’ offer between $80-85MM.

  207. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:25 pm

    “Bret the Hitman
    December 11th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
    BBB,
    Kennedy was the price for Ankiel. A little steep if you ask me.”

    For a year of Boras client Ankiel, I couldn’t agree more, especially considering the long term success Kennedy would be almost certain to have under the best pitching coach in baseball.

  208. Phil December 11th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    Bret the Hitman,

    do we have a game tomorrow?

  209. CB December 11th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    “Might be wishful thinking, but the projected Yankee lineup seems pretty tame. A lot is expected from older, often injured players who are trending downward.”

    Yeah. It’s not great. They are going to try to win with pitching next year.

    I don’t think the issue with the line up is even age per se however. Or that’s not the only issue.

    I think the issue that may be just as big is that they are counting on huge bounce back seasons from Cano and Swisher.

    That’s at least as important as age. And it’s impossible to know how that will go.

    But the line up isn’t great by any means.

    They need another bat. The organization knows that. They are not clueless.

    We’ll see if they get one.

    You’ll know they are truly going for the jugular this year if they go out and get one.

    Otherwise they are hoping on probability.

    By the way – Bill James is like the Jason Varitek of statisticians.

    The sox are paying for past results on on that one… though I’m sure he’s not the only stats guy Theo has.

    What James does is actually pretty rudimentary.

    He invented a field and that’s great. But he’s not particularly innovative or accurate.

  210. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 11th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    “It is strange when we seem to keep trading for old and expensive players for no apparent reason.”

    Hmmm. A rotation that limped along at the hands of the rookies who weren’t ready for prime time. I can think of a few apparent reasons without batting an eye.

    In the realm of “you can’t have it all ways” decisions have to be made, and oftentimes they are made based on the recent pastg. Yankees finished in 3rd place last season and didn’t make the postseason. Most people realize that the big question mark ended up being a shaky rotation. People decried the fact that Cashman went with his rookies when they weren’t ready for primetime – these were probably the same people who decried the fact that the Yankees had been trading away all their young players for more established players. So Cashman goes out and gets some stars for the Yankee rotation and now the complaint du jour has to do with “trading for old and expensive players.”

    That’s the way I see it anyway. Hey Pete – if you see Cashman could you please tell him that some of the members of your blog asked you to thank him personally for working so hard and making such great moves. I’m sure his job is one of the most thankless there is.

  211. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    Teddy Vercetti – You don’t have to sell me on Ankiel being a good player. But you know we could get him for only money a year from now, right? Why give St Louis 5+ cost controlled years of a solid no. 2 or no. 3 in return when we don’t have to?

  212. Drive 4-5 December 11th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    Brian (Red Sox fan)
    December 11th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
    CB – Thanks for the reply.

    FYI, Bill James and Theo are performing marvelously esoteric machinations to withstand the onslaught of The Evil Empire (unless Theo is with John Henry, stacking up $100 bills for delivery to Texeira).

    P.S. Might be wishful thinking, but the projected Yankee lineup seems pretty tame. A lot is expected from older, often injured players who are trending downward.

    Once again you’ve hit the nail on the head Brian. You’re a Red Sox fan but for some unfathomable reason ( to me) I cant hate you lol. You are unlike just about every Sox fan I know here in Mass.

  213. chaim jones December 11th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    by the end of next season, the yankees will have gotten rid of giambi, abreu, damon and matsui (and cameron). they cant do anything this season about matsui and damon’s age, and matsui’s value to the yankees is much higher than they will recieve in return for him. the yankees are in the process of getting younger, but that doesnt mean that every single transaction is going to be a younger guy replacing and older guy. you guys are getting all bent outta shape over the #9 hitter.

  214. AlbanyYankee December 11th, 2008 at 8:29 pm

    Here is my thinking. Matsui grounds the ball to the right side a ton. I don’t want the #3 hitter doing that with Damon or Jeter on first. What about moving A-Rod up to #3? Try this:

    Damon L
    Jeter R
    A-Rod S
    Matsui L
    Posada S
    Nady R
    Cano L
    Cameron R
    Swisher S

    Seems balanced. But, I really have a tough time imagining what the actual lineup will be. It is difficult to place all those guys. I think Matsui is a really good #5, but if you move A-Rod up, there isn’t really a classic cleanup hitter in the lineup. Good luck, GI Joe.

  215. Brian C December 11th, 2008 at 8:29 pm

    Nady is not a good enough hitter to hit 3rd.

    Should be:

    Damon
    Jeter
    Arod
    Mastui
    Podada
    Nady
    etc, etc.

  216. Jbomb December 11th, 2008 at 8:29 pm

    What about Bonds! He’s old and has steriod issues? He could be a good DH for us.

  217. Gus December 11th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    All i got to say is that if a “hole at the 3 spot ” is our biggest problem than we will be just fine. If Hip Hip and Matsui are indeed healthy our line up will be fine. Plus a a guy who can hit 3rd is not to hard to trade for since Cash is the man and saved all of our chips rather than try to obtain starters in the trade market. Cam will do fine here if healthy. He loves the Yankees and has been dying to play here. If we are hurting at the 3 spot we can make a trade in season

  218. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 11th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    “everyone is always (rightly) talking about how the Yankees need to get younger and more athletic in the field; well Cameron is a TRANSITION to a player who embodies all those attributes. You can’t expect it to happen overnight!”

    Insightful. This comment almost doesn’t belong here!

    ;)

  219. David December 11th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    That lineup is not nearly good enough to compete with Boston

  220. Brian C December 11th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    Hey, AlbanyYankee…great minds think alike…heh

  221. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 8:31 pm

    Given the payroll parameters that we *think* the Yankees are operating under, the FA pitcher X signing plus Pettitte/Pitcher Y might be the last big moves made. In which case the discussion/complaining/dissecting of the lineup would be appropriate.

    However, please recall that when the Swisher trade went down, *some* people started freaking out. It could be that Cashman isn’t completely finished working on the 2009 roster.

  222. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:31 pm

    “Interestingly, he nots that A.J. might not necessarily want to be an “ace” of a staff like he would be in Atlanta.”

    Ugh, that sounds like it came straight from Erik Bedard’s sound byte file.

    AJ does not have half the character or competitiveness of CC, Wang, Andy, Joba. All those guys WANT the ball in the biggest games and situations possible. They want their teammates to look to them to be the man.

    Though I guess if we only have one potential pansy in a staff of five, that wouldn’t be that bad. Hopefully the other guys would keep him in line.

    I’d still prefer Sheets though, but AJ seems inevitable.

  223. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 8:32 pm

    By the trade deadline the Yankees will get a bat. If they need one.

    it easier to find an above average bat then an above average arm, no?

  224. David December 11th, 2008 at 8:33 pm

    How do you know what AJ wants.

  225. yankeefan91 Sign burnett or sheets and manny asap December 11th, 2008 at 8:33 pm

    i still think the yankees need dat big bat behind arod to make this lineup complete and the man is mannyyyyyyyyyy

  226. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 8:34 pm

    Questions I have:

    Who is the leadoff hitter after next season in place of Damon?

    Who is the three hitter after next season in place of Matsui?

    Who is the closer in 2009 if Mo gets inured?

    Who is the shortstop in 2009 if Jeter hits the DL?

    If the Posada/Molina tandem falls apart again, who catches?

    Are we thinking ahead at all? If anyone has a plan that addresses these questions please show me so I don’t blow my brains out.

  227. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 8:34 pm

    Triple-B
    It’s not that I want to get rid of Kennedy, but quite frankly, I don’t think that he’ll ever get a shot with us. Burnett (5 years), Sabathia (3-7), Wang (next decade), Joba (very loong time), and Pettitte/other alternative (at least one year), he won’t be given the oppurtunity to break through the rotation with all of that guaranteed, long-term money sitting in front of him. But above all, I think I’m just being greedy and want a fairly young, good all-around player manning CF in the Bronx.

  228. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 11th, 2008 at 8:35 pm

    Hey Brian the Red Sox fan. You hit it on the nose. It is unequivocally wishful thinking on your part. Hang around and then watch and weep.

    :D

    By the way, as it happens I have known Brian the Red Sox fan for quite a few years and I can attest to the fact that he is achingly reasonable. It can get quite annoying!

  229. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 8:36 pm

    Nick,

    those are the same people who thought for sure CC wasn’t going to come here. I wonder where they now? hmm…

  230. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 8:37 pm

    CB – I’ve heard similar opinions about Bill James from people other people who have a clue (though no one has compared him to Varitek – good analogy).

    This may be hero worship, but I trust Theo to put statistical analysis in its proper place (most of the time). Occasionally, though, a J.D. Drew or (horrors) a Lugo becomes statistically identified. On the plus side, it’s created a more appropriate lust for Texeira.

    I still can’t believe the Yankees aren’t after him …. hopefully, our gain.

  231. ZMAN7777 December 11th, 2008 at 8:37 pm

    Bret — valid concerns and questions; just please put the gun down.

  232. Buddy Biancalana December 11th, 2008 at 8:37 pm

    Haha! This is good, Manny to retire?

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....8502.story

  233. TheEd(itor) December 11th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

    I really hate this deal. I don’t think Cameron is better than Melky. And he is worse than Gardner. So why do it??
    We didn’t offer Abreu arbitration because of salary concerns. So why do we want $10 million in salary for a washed up player.

  234. 7 Angels December 11th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

    Pete, that lineup doesn’t scare anyone. If that’s it for the 09 season, I see a 4th place finish.

  235. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 8:39 pm

    Ed
    CC didn’t think he was coming here…until the Yankees offered him a contract that eclipses the GDP of most Carribbean nations!!!

  236. CB December 11th, 2008 at 8:39 pm

    “it easier to find an above average bat then an above average arm, no?”

    True. But I think the biggest issue they will encounter is roster flexibility.

    Given what guys like Matsui are making what do you do with them in they are not performing/ hurt.

    The other issue is that if they really wanted to add a bat it would have to now be either a first baseman or a right fielder, preferrably a right fielder.

    That’s the problem. It’s not easy finding guys who can play right field. Left field – sure. But right is more challenging.

    That’s one of the things that makes signing Manny if they chose to more difficult.

    If he could play right field he’d fit in nicely. But he can’t. He really is a DH. But then where do you play matsui, etc. ,etc.

    We’ll see. It’ll be interesting to see how much urgency they put into this season. I think that will tell how much that opt out clause in CC’s contract is weighing on them.

  237. EDUB December 11th, 2008 at 8:40 pm

    Some people are just way too dense to look beyond batting average (which is a meaningless statistic) to see that Cameron is a huge upgrade over Melky

  238. Aaron December 11th, 2008 at 8:41 pm

    Ed
    there is no way Bret Gardner is better then Mike Cameron.. Do you know who mike cameron is??lol.. he’s better then gardner, come on..

  239. yankeefan91 Sign burnett or sheets and manny asap December 11th, 2008 at 8:41 pm

    just saw in mlbtraderumors that manny might retire lol

  240. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 11th, 2008 at 8:41 pm

    Bret the Hitman, wow. I have always thought that the best way to approach life is to worry about today and let tomorrow take care of itself. Life is so mutable that something that might appeal to your reason today could be entirely unreasonable by the season after next. I guess you just have to trust that the organization is as interested in having the best possible resources and so will take care of what needs to be taken care of in due time – or when it needs to be taken care of.

  241. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 8:41 pm

    What you guys dont know is we’re saving Kennedy for a January trade for Pujolz. Igawa goes in that trade as well.

    Damon Jete Pujolz Arod

  242. YankeeJosh December 11th, 2008 at 8:42 pm

    My thinking is that the remaining players out there all have big flaws. Cameron is an older strikeout machine who served a suspension for stimulants last year. I want no part of him. Burnett’s focus and health are questionable. Lowe is older and won’t be a shutdown pitcher in the AL East and has questionable clubhouse character. Sheets can’t stay healthy either.

    I think the Yankees are making a huge mistake not taking the money they’d spend on Cameron and AJ and instead investing it in the best everyday player on the market in Teixeira. With CC, Wang and Joba, you have 3 top notch pitchers with great stuff. Even if Joba is nominally number 5, to reduce innings, he’s not a typical #5 starter. Fill out the back of the rotation with cheaper options like Hughes, Aceves, Wolf or Pettitte. That rotation can still win, and the money spent on Teix will boost the line-up significantly. And that might allow the Yanks to try Gardner and Melky in Center and if that failed, they would have the option of moving Damon back there, or bringing up Jackson if he is reday.

    The difference between signing Teix as opposed to AJ might be negligible next year. But for the long term, I’d rather have a great athletic firstbaseman signed in his prime as opposed to an overpaid injury prone pitcher who has never lived up to the hype.

    I hope I’m wrong bbut I think the Yankees will rue the day they didn’t sign Teixeira. John Harper’s piece in the news today really sums up nicely my take on the matter.

  243. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 8:42 pm

    Hey, Trisha ….. good to see/hear/read you. I’m pleased that your winter season is going so well. Of course, with great expectations come great disappointments (not that I would wish that on your beloved Yankees).

  244. Phil December 11th, 2008 at 8:43 pm

    It’ll go like this. Some time after the rotation has been filled, the Yanks will get a big bat. Cash will say something about how looking at the rotation and the bullpen they thought they might be able to do something special this year. Then he’ll talk about ownership’s roll in either suggesting or approving the big bat and we’ll have another .900 opser in our lineup and better depth than we’ve had in years.

  245. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

    “there is no way Bret Gardner is better then Mike Cameron.. Do you know who mike cameron is??lol.. he’s better then gardner, come on..”

    HUH? I never said that. Get your name straighten.

  246. mdwebguy December 11th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

    That lineup is lacking big time! we need:

    Damon – LF
    Jeter – SS
    Tex – 1st
    ARod – 3rd
    Matsui – DH
    Posada – C
    Nady – RF
    Swisher – CF
    Cano – 2nd

    That lineup is SOLID! Get rid of Matsui is leave a nice hole to rotate @ DH, maybe bring in Manny!

    The Yanks NEED Another bat around AROD

  247. Michelle B. (X is the new black) December 11th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

    Cameron – Blah! 10 million please – I’d rather have Abreu back. And Dunn jeez– he is jason giambi light; strikes out a ton, always looking for the HR and injury prone.

    Why on earth we wouldnt just keep a good defensive CF, who is young and cheap is beyond me. Scoring runs is overrated everyone knows “DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS”

    PS I miss the old nick

  248. CB December 11th, 2008 at 8:45 pm

    “I still can’t believe the Yankees aren’t after him …. hopefully, our gain.”

    Theo’s done a wonderful job of managing pay roll. Tex will be the fruit of that discipline.

    Though I will say – this move for tex at all costs at huge money does remind me a bit of the kind of thing the yankees started to do at the end of their dynasty.

    You guys have an excellent system so the analogy only goes so far.

    I am looking forward to seeing gammons spin 10yrs/250M as fiscal prudence and organizational discipline however.

    And just as an aside – Tex is a very good player. But he’s really not a great hitter. He’s just not.

    Somehow – as always happens in free agency – particularly with Boras guys – this is getting overlooked.

    It’ll be interesting to see how he does next year as the man.

    Being in that balanced line up very well could turn him into a great hitter. We’ll see. But he’s never been one before so he’ll have to raise his game. He’ll have to do what he did as an Angel for an entire season.

    It’ll be interesting.

  249. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 8:46 pm

    Pop pyschology here, but I wonder if Manny’s performance isn’t a double-edged sword. The fact that he turned it on so strongly just made it more glaringly obvious that he had turned it off in Boston.

    What GM feels confident in giving Manny 3 or 4 years and then wondering how long it will take for Manny to get upset about some imaginary slight and then turn it off again. Maybe a light bulb will go off in Manny’s head and he’ll decide that if the whole league is out to get him, he’ll take a short-term deal in his hometown and show them all how wrong they were.

  250. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 11th, 2008 at 8:46 pm

    “Of course, with great expectations come great disappointments (not that I would wish that on your beloved Yankees).”

    :lol:

    Off topic but please tell Mary that if she has online pictures of Suzanne’s wedding I definitely want to see them. She has my email address. I heard is was an absolutely beautiful event and that you’ve been panhandling ever since. He he he.

  251. jennifer December 11th, 2008 at 8:46 pm

    Pete MIA again?

  252. gayle December 11th, 2008 at 8:47 pm

    For thosae who think Kennedy was too steep for Ankeil it seems that the Cardinals were asking for a bit more than just Kennedy. This from NY Baseball Digest (no idea how credible they are). In this same story they say that Jana Mussina spoke to CC’s wife and told her about being in NY. If true eben in retirement Moose and famly are helping us out

    Passing Thoughts
    As we reported last night, the Yankees did inquire about Rick Ankiel, but apparently the Cards asking price was too high. St. Louis GM John Mozeliak apparently asked for a combination of players that included Brett Gardner, Phil Hughes/Ian Kennedy and Mark Melancon, which of course, was immediately turned down.

  253. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 8:47 pm

    Manny’s *LA* performance, that is

  254. harwood December 11th, 2008 at 8:47 pm

    “7:18: Mark Bowman at MLB.com says it’s down to the Braves or the Yankees for Burnett. Interestingly, he nots that A.J. might not necessarily want to be an “ace” of a staff like he would be in Atlanta. He has the Yanks’ offer between $80-85MM.”

    Just what you want from a starter. Someone who cant handle the pressure of being expected to go out every 5 and give your team a chance to win. Welcome home AJ.

  255. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 8:48 pm

    Nick in SF

    “It could be that Cashman isn’t completely finished working on the 2009 roster.”

    I hope you’re right. If he’s done, he ignored the biggest concerns I have with this team offensively and defensively. I’m satisfied with the pitching from top to bottom.

  256. S.o.S. December 11th, 2008 at 8:48 pm

    Tex is not worth 8 or 10 years. Giambi got 7 after having mvp numbers and most of us dreaded it. Ill pass on Tex for that term. I didnt even like the 10 year Arod contract.

  257. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 11th, 2008 at 8:48 pm

    Brian as you know I have always marched to my own drum but I can tell you that I absolutely do not lust for Teixeira and am very content that it appears that the Yankees have not made him a priority.

  258. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 8:50 pm

    I’d take a chance on Nick Johnson for 1 year rather than sign Teixeira for 8.

  259. Michelle B. (X is the new black) December 11th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

    YankeeJosh,

    i agree with your summation except for two things.

    Derek Lowe, was a partier in boston, but it has been reported recently that he has matured and become a clubhouse leader. Lowe is also a groundball pitcher, not a shutdown, strike em out kind of guy. He knows what he has and uses it well, as a 3rd or 4th pitcher, he wouldnt be awful. I mean going into this past season mussina was the same guy.

  260. harwood December 11th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

    “Tex is not worth 8 or 10 years.”

    With the rotation the Yankees are putting together they shouldnt need the highest offer to get Tex.

  261. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

    “Questions I have:

    Who is the leadoff hitter after next season in place of Damon?

    Who is the three hitter after next season in place of Matsui?

    Who is the closer in 2009 if Mo gets inured?

    Who is the shortstop in 2009 if Jeter hits the DL?

    If the Posada/Molina tandem falls apart again, who catches?

    Are we thinking ahead at all? If anyone has a plan that addresses these questions please show me so I don’t blow my brains out”

    What the hell, I’ll take a stab at these:

    1) Jeter perhaps? There are also some good corner OF FA’s last I looked, I think Carl Crawford may be one, maybe the Yanks would consider signing him or another similar top of the order type batter. Or, perhaps Gardner will prove himself a worthy MLB leadoff man this year. You never know, but the possibility is why I’m convinced Yanks won’t just sit him on the bench this year. With Damon coming off the books now’s the time to see what they have.

    2) Uhhh, good question. Swisher and Cano seem the only even marginally probable candidates from within, otherwise they’d have to go outside the org I guess.

    3) A Bruney/Veras/Marte (he did close in PIT) tandem would have to hold it down until the Yankees could make a trade.

    4) I’d guess Cody Ransom. Bummer to lose Corona in the Rule 5 today…

    5) I think Cashman recently said something about signing some veteran to a Chad Moeller 2008 type minor league deal, just in case. Then it would be between that guy and Cervelli.

    Not exactly the answers you wanted I know, but what team does have top shelf talent to replace their best players just in case of injury, ya know?

  262. YankeeJosh December 11th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

    “Tex is not worth 8 or 10 years. Giambi got 7 after having mvp numbers and most of us dreaded it. Ill pass on Tex for that term. I didnt even like the 10 year Arod contract.”

    Do we know that’s what he’s going to get? Lots of different rumors spinning about. I think at age 29 and in good shape, Teix would be a great bet for a 7 year contract. 8 is pushing it but I’d do it. 10 years? Too rich for even my blood.

  263. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 8:52 pm

    I don’t think the Yanks will regret going after Tex. What they do regret, is not going after Beltran, because no immediate successor was available…However, I think Swisher will be a more-than-adequate 1B and he’ll be a fan favorite-he’s kind of a badass, he plays hard, and he’ll put up nice numbers in the stadium and on a good team. Swisher’s only here to keep the seat warm for Montero in 2011. And Montero projects to be an absolute BEAST.

  264. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 8:52 pm

    “PS I miss the old nick”

    The old Nick Swisher? Please explain.

  265. Jbomb December 11th, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    I guess its another year of hearing about Damons foot problems, matsui’s bum knee that needs to be drained every month, Posada’s shoulder and now Cameron. The yankee clubhouse is like a walk – in clinic.

    I’m not one of these people who thinks we need TEX or MANNY.(It would be nice.) Really just give me a young athletic player with a solid bat who I don’t have to watch and worry he’s gonna get injured walking from the Dugout to the batters box.

  266. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    “just saw in mlbtraderumors that manny might retire lol”

    Let’s just hope this doesn’t lead to another early-May rendition of:

    OH MY GOODNESS GRACIOUS!! MANNY IS SITTING IN HAL STEINBRENNAA’S BAWX!!!

  267. CB December 11th, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    “he’ll decide that if the whole league is out to get him, he’ll take a short-term deal in his hometown and show them all how wrong they were.”

    Showing them all how they were wrong is a decent probability outcome of all of this.

    No idea what team he’ll do the showing for.

    I’m sure Manny is very unhappy right now.

    Which also makes it tricky to sign him to a two year deal after boras has been telling him for months he’d get him 4yrs/100M.

    He could be miserable if he signs a two year deal for say $50M.

    Then he might feel cheated by the team that signs him.

  268. chaim jones December 11th, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    i’ve been saying arod should be our #3 hitter since the season ended, it makes great sense to have him hit behind jeter. remember when torre got arod he originally batted him third.

  269. Michelle B. (X is the new black) December 11th, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    “i miss the old nick”

    i cant explain, I might make some one upset.

  270. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    Tom,

    that’s what I been saying but people laughed at me for bringing up the idea of trading for Nick Johnson.

  271. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 8:55 pm

    …Nick Johnson could be our #3 hitter due to his patience.

  272. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:56 pm

    ” St. Louis GM John Mozeliak apparently asked for a combination of players that included Brett Gardner, Phil Hughes/Ian Kennedy and Mark Melancon”

    Jebus…did he also ask for another crack rock and some Chore Boy? lol wow.

  273. LathamJoe December 11th, 2008 at 8:56 pm

    The lineup submitted by Peter really underscores the need for a Lefty pullhitter with power. Matsui is the only dangerous lefty hitter in the lineup (Switchitting Posada not withstanding) and I can’t believe people are discounting Hideki’s overall value as a clutch hitter and run producer! With Giambi and Abreu gone, and if matsui is traded, this lineup would be righty dominant – not a good match for Right Field friendly Yankee Stadium.

  274. Patrick December 11th, 2008 at 8:56 pm

    CB, you applaud the Red Sox restraint when it comes to payroll but you also come very close to suggesting that the Yankees should sign Manny.

    Now is the time for the Yankees to start cutting back payroll, they have $80 million off the books. Obviously thats less after spending money on Marte, Swisher and Sabathia. Should the Yankees show restraint and try to get the payroll under control or should they go all in?

    Its frustrating as a Yankee fan that the Sox have a better overall team and yet their payroll is significantly less than the Yankees. Cashman preaches about payroll flexibility and he mentioned several times he wants to reduce payroll. Now we see his true intentions. If he gets Burnett, Cameron, and Pettitte the payroll is over $200 million once again.

    Cashman has to commit one way or the other. Are the Yankees going to be a team loaded with huge contracts or are they going to be prudent?

  275. The Jay December 11th, 2008 at 8:57 pm

    That line up doesn’t do a thing for me…I know you keep saying “No Tex…” but, when you know the Yankees…when you least expect it, BOOM!…AND, imagine how much more shiney THAT line up would be….

  276. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 8:57 pm

    Nick Johnson’s medical file is thicker than CC’s midsection. No way.

  277. Michelle B. (X is the new black) December 11th, 2008 at 8:57 pm

    Now Nick Johnson, i would take a flyer on him, but we would have to provide him with a plastic bubble, maybe two – one for work and one for home.

  278. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 8:58 pm

    I’m definitely down with a Nick the Stick reunion, Yanks should at least take a flier. I’m a huge Juan Miranda fan and want him to see MLB A/B in 2009, but perhaps he could start the year in the minors and come up when Johnson got injured. You know it would happen…

  279. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 8:58 pm

    Ed, I think Johnson would be less of a risk now because of Swisher. Johnson gets hurt, which will happen, Swisher plays first.

  280. CB December 11th, 2008 at 8:58 pm

    I’d take a shot at Nick Johnson in a minute.

    I’m hoping Tex winds up signing with the Nats. In turn Bowden dumps Nick.

    I said this before – if healthy (yes big if…) Johnson is a poor man’s Teixeira. Similar game but tex is a much better hitter (though not a better OBP guy).

  281. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 8:59 pm

    CB – My first extended look at Texeira was in the 2008 ALDS. He wouldn’t bite on pitches 2″ off the strike zone, and was right on virtually everything that crossed the plate. He hit only singles, but only because he hit everything on a line (w/o elevating it). He also made a game-saving (at the time) defensive play.

    I realize it was only 4 games, but I dreaded his ABs …. just a brutal out.

    I know that you’re of the opinion that he’s very good, not great. But my eyes saw something more than the statistcal resume.
    Remember Brett Myers’ 10 pitch playoff AB against CC? Changed the whole game – Texeira seems to have that effect.

  282. RhapsodyInBlue December 11th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

    Would love to see Nick back with the Yankees.

  283. S.A.- CC you soon Mr. Sabathia December 11th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

    Manny to retire? Hahaha

  284. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 9:02 pm

    BBB
    I don’t see Miranda as a ML hitter. I think he’s one of the thousands of quadruple-A All-Stars. See: Andy Phillips, Shelley Duncan,Victor Diaz.

  285. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 9:02 pm

    I too like Miranda. Dude kills right hand pitching. He had .970 OPS vs RHP last season in AAA. Ray Charles would hit LHP better then him though…

  286. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 9:02 pm

    CB – one last point on Texeira – No evidence of PED use, so if he maintains his production, the standard for “great” stats may well fall to where Texeira has been performing for several years. For example, I believe that 36 HRs led the AL last year.

  287. LathamJoe December 11th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

    Cashman should make a short term offer to Sean Casey. He’s got some pop and is a good presence in the dugout.

  288. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

    “Which also makes it tricky to sign him to a two year deal after boras has been telling him for months he’d get him 4yrs/100M.”

    So you don’t think Manny is pals with Warren Buffett?

  289. luis December 11th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

    manny to retire..hahaha lol

    http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....8502.story

  290. BBB December 11th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

    IIRC about Teix in the 2008 ALDS (too lazy to look it up), almost all of his hits were with the bases empty. When there were RISP he came up empty. It’s a very small sample size, though. Nobody is going to say he isn’t a very good hitter, but I agree with what I think it was CB wrote, the Boras hype is making him seem like a better hitter than he really is.

  291. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 9:04 pm

    Tom and CB,

    I hope the Nationals land Tex too. I still believe if Tex wasn’t never traded, he could had been healthy. 2006 would had been his healthy season if it wasn’t the Mets caused the collision towards the last week of the season. so blame them. Swisher could take over 1B in the late innings if needed.

    Nick Johnson would be a perfect cheap #3 hitter.

  292. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 9:04 pm

    Trisha – I don’t want to dominate the Yankee Board (wearing out my welcome), but if my senile mental capacity permits, I’ll get those wedding pics to you. Please send contributions to the house (per MY attention).

  293. Drive 4-5 December 11th, 2008 at 9:04 pm

    YankeeJosh,

    I say keep the $28mil they will spend on DL…ooops I mean AJ Burnett and Cameron and spend it on the first year of a contract to Texeira. All Texeira does is give them a Gold Glove and a .919 ops, gives A Rod some protection and did I forget to mention he’s only 28? Like Brian said, Tex makes sense for the Yankees.

    Signing Burnett for 5 years is absolutley insane. The guy didnt have 5 injury free years in his 20′s and now they expect it into his late 30′s. Ridiculous.Especially in light of the young pitching talent the Yanks have coming up.

  294. Confucius December 11th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

    “There are also some good corner OF FA’s last I looked, I think Carl Crawford may be one, maybe the Yanks would consider signing him or another similar top of the order type batter.”

    Matt Holliday and Carl Crawford are both headed for free agency. Since all the pitching is being taken care of this winter, my dream offseason for next year would be Cashman grabbing both. Damon, Matsui, Cameron, and Nady all off the books, and we bring in the two FA’s and promote Jackson for an astronomical outfield upgrade. With Crawford, you got your leadoff guy and with Holliday you got someone to pair with A-Rod. DH is flexible. On top of it, Damon and Nady probably both net draft picks.

    It’s a dream of course. It depends on Jackson developing, neither of the two FA’s getting contracts before next winter, and just how much Cashman will be willing to spend. Hopefully as much as he’s been willing to spend on the pitching this winter. Holliday-Crawford-Jackson would just be awesome.

  295. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

    “I still believe if Tex wasn’t never traded”

    ..I mean Nick Johnson.

  296. Jbomb December 11th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

    Why sign AJ now. The problem with the yankees rotation hasn’t been depth. We’ve just lacked a true ACE. Now we have that and a very solid one. two, three punch with C.C,WANG AND JOBA. Go cheap and get pettite and garland. That way we have money left over for Manny. (Maybe)

  297. kill.schill(ing) December 11th, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    That lineup sucks. If Cameron is going to play center, then the Yankees need to upgrade their offense either at 1B or in RF.

    I think I’d almost take the risk on the upside of Gardner or Melky.

    How much upside can there possibly be to a 36 year old CF with a career 106 OPS?

  298. YankeeJosh December 11th, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    Swisher is a good role player and is a nice player to have on the team, but he’s not what this offense neds imo. And if he doesn’t have a big rebound year with the bat, his OBP will be around .350. If the Yanks had a lot of other big bats they could carry him and he could prove versatile (like Brosius in the late 90s) but given the weakness of the overall lineup, I don’t really see the fit. I thinkk he’ll become a fan favorite, but he’s not what the Yankees need imo.

    As for Montero, he could still be a catcher. Or he could still be a bust. He was in A ball last year, and we have no idea if he’ll be ready in 2011. The Yankees are in no position to sacrifice two years waiting for Montero. Who knows what options we’ll have in 2 years. Teixeira is a very good player right now and the best available free agent remaining, and that’s why I think the Yanks should go after him, though I agree with Pete that it won’t happen.

  299. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    “i cant explain, I might make some one upset.”

    hmmm, I have two guesses, but I wouldn’t want to make anyone upset either during these happy CC-days.

    BTW, I played Harding Park during Tuesday’s great weather, I was awful

  300. CB December 11th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

    “Cashman has to commit one way or the other. Are the Yankees going to be a team loaded with huge contracts or are they going to be prudent?”

    Patrick,

    I agree with you. What’s happening now is strange.

    I’m honestly not sure what the play here is.

    I do think for a long time Cashman has wanted to make this a pitching first team.

    And right now he’s showing himself to be amazingly price elastic for pitching (well pitching not named andy pettite…)

    So perhaps he really believes that pitching wins and that they should temper the rest of the team.

    I do think he’s actively trying to get at least slightly above average players at every position.

    It seems like that’s the goal for the position players and to then go all in on pitching.

    But that strategy does raise the question – why not go all in all the way around?

    But again, if you believe that it really is pitching (though pitching with mediocre defense…) then I suppose this strategy will work.

    But its a tough chore given the competition in the division.

    In any other division it would work. But the AL East will be brutal this year.

    I still think it may be undefined. I think part of it depends on how long they think CC will be here.

    If they do think like Ken Davidoff has suggested that CC will definitely be out of here in 3 years – then the opportunity cost of not making this team as good as possible over that period of time becomes huge.

    I think we’ll see.

    But if all of a sudden with see a 3 yr/75M offer to Manny I think we’ll know the answer.

  301. chaim jones December 11th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

    ““7:18: Mark Bowman at MLB.com says it’s down to the Braves or the Yankees for Burnett. Interestingly, he nots that A.J. might not necessarily want to be an “ace” of a staff like he would be in Atlanta. He has the Yanks’ offer between $80-85MM.”

    Just what you want from a starter. Someone who cant handle the pressure of being expected to go out every 5 and give your team a chance to win. Welcome home AJ.”

    what a bunch of crap! the guy is apparently about to CHOOSE to pitch for the yankees in the A.L. East! cant handle the pressure? he knows what the AL East is and how tough it is and he knows what a pressure cooker NY and New Yankee Stadium is going to be, but he’s chosing to go there anyway.

    that crap just sounds like an atlanta excuse for losing out on him…he’s not though enough to lead atlanta, he’d rather be a follower in ny…..pathetic….

  302. stuart December 11th, 2008 at 9:08 pm

    standard Yankee pickup. on the back side of his and overpaid.

    I am sure going with Gardner is to much for our astute fanbase to handle, after all he is only 25 yrs old way to young.

    The fanbase feels better overpaying a 35 yr old guy in decline.
    Burnett will fit right in with this crap..

    Sabathia is 28 and never been hurt, aj(crap) is 32, always hurt, and a woosie competitor….

  303. kill.schill(ing) December 11th, 2008 at 9:10 pm

    Acquiring Manny would force the Yankees to trade Matsui, I guess. The problem is that the Yankees lineup need another left-handed bat that can hit for power.

  304. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 9:11 pm

    BBB,

    Thank you for responding to my worries. I’m gonna grab a glass of wine and return to talk about your post.

    Ok I’m back.
    “1) Jeter perhaps? There are also some good corner OF FA’s last I looked, I think Carl Crawford may be one, maybe the Yanks would consider signing him or another similar top of the order type batter. Or, perhaps Gardner will prove himself a worthy MLB leadoff man this year. You never know, but the possibility is why I’m convinced Yanks won’t just sit him on the bench this year. With Damon coming off the books now’s the time to see what they have.”

    Jeter at 36 and leading off concerns me. The Rays have an option on Carl Crawford. Gardner wouldn’t be out there since Cameron is a stop gap to Jackson in CF and Gardner would have to play a corner outfield position. I like Furcal better than all of them except Crawford so I hope Crawford is attainable.

    “2) Uhhh, good question. Swisher and Cano seem the only even marginally probable candidates from within, otherwise they’d have to go outside the org I guess.”

    That would require Cano to have a huge season better than any of his seasons so far. It looks like they’re committed to him so I hope he pans out. My fear is that Swisher and Cano won’t be trusted and the Yankees will continue to throw money at their problems and sign Holliday for LF. Holliday in LF is another reason why I don’t see where Gardner fits in as a leadoff hitter. It’s looking like Jeter right now. If Jeter, who hits second?

    “3) A Bruney/Veras/Marte (he did close in PIT) tandem would have to hold it down until the Yankees could make a trade.”

    The thought of Bruney or Marte closing frightens me. And I don’t trust Veras at all. I want them to trade him. The Mets got real talent for Greg Smith. GREG SMITH!???

    “4) I’d guess Cody Ransom. Bummer to lose Corona in the Rule 5 today…”

    With Punto off the market, maybe the Yanks should trade for Freddy Sanchez as a utility infielder. I don’t care if he’s 5 million sitting on the bench. We have no middle infielders.

    “5) I think Cashman recently said something about signing some veteran to a Chad Moeller 2008 type minor league deal, just in case. Then it would be between that guy and Cervelli.”

    And history repeats itself.

    I’m starting to dread the possibility that GM’s around the league facing serious financial drought and potential catastrophe are punishing the Yankees for having the most money. They’re sitting back watching us gobble up all the best talent on the market and can’t do anything about it accept present us with ridiculous requests like that one for 1 year of Ankiel (Kennedy + Melancon + Gardner????). Even if Cashman offers a trade that benefits both teams they won’t do the deal because they’re trying to compensate for the leverage they lose on the open market. It’s corporate envy of the highest order.

    It’s the special Yankees price in full effect. I’m sure they’re not happy about us avoiding luxury tax or revenue tax (not sure which one) because of the new stadium. I mean you have GM’s like Melvin openly complaining about our money. So we’re stuck with a stagnant roster outside of free agent signings.

    Rant. Sorry. Thank you again for your input. I’ll go double check on the Crawford situation because that one gave me a glimmer of hope.

  305. Phil Parcells December 11th, 2008 at 9:12 pm

    ROFLMFAO!

    “Manny Ramirez told a friend that he spends most of his time working out, watching cartoons and playing video games.”

  306. CB December 11th, 2008 at 9:12 pm

    “No evidence of PED use, so if he maintains his production, the standard for “great” stats may well fall to where Texeira has been performing for several years.”

    Not likely. PED’s affected outliers but those outliers had limited impact on average production most likely.

    Tex’s numbers wouldn’t be considered great in any era. They just wouldn’t.

    I like him as a player but if Sox fans think they are getting a replacment for Manny they are mistaken.

    Manny is a truly great hitter. Papi 2006, 2007, etc. – truly great hitter.

    Tex is more similar to Jason Bay as a hitter than he is to Manny. If you don’t believe that just take a look at their career statistics.

    Tex’s value is in his all around game (though without speed) more than his bat.

    Now all that might change in the sox deep line up – but that’ll have as much to do with the complementary players surrounding him as it will with him.

    He just doesn’t hit for that much power.

  307. Drive 4-5 December 11th, 2008 at 9:12 pm

    Those thoughts about Burnett not being comfortable as a #1 have dogged him for years. There very well could be something to it.

  308. Bronx Jeers December 11th, 2008 at 9:12 pm

    What was it Manny said at the end of the season?

    “Gas is goin up and so am I”?

    Guess what Manny?

    Gas is goin down and so are you.

  309. pat December 11th, 2008 at 9:13 pm

    Manny to retire? That would put him in the same HOF class as Schilling if he’s done? Now that HOF ceremony would be must see TV if they both got in. :smile:

  310. CB December 11th, 2008 at 9:14 pm

    “For example, I believe that 36 HRs led the AL last year.”

    One last thing – 36 homers only lead the AL because Alex got hurt and missed a month and change.

    That and papi being hurt and manny getting traded/ being an awful teammate.

    36 HR is more an anomaly right now than any trend.

  311. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 9:14 pm

    Josh
    At 6-5, I can’t really see Montero staying behind the plate. He’s destined for 1B, where he’d really be given the opportunity to mash at the plate. Aside from Montero’s size, I think the Yanks are really high on Austin Romine’s receiving skills and his high batting average. I see a move to 1B in the near future for Montero, and 18 year olds with 50 plus XBH don’t come along very often, so I think the Yanks will try to maximize his offensive potential by putting him at the less stressful position.

  312. Jbomb December 11th, 2008 at 9:14 pm

    I think what A.J. means is he’d be more comfortable pitching behind C.C. Knowing that most the pressure will be on him and his huge contract. That may make him more relaxed and a better pitcher.

    I wouldn’t call him a woosie. I wouldn’t call any pitcher that did as well as he did against the yankees last year, a woosie.

  313. Jbomb December 11th, 2008 at 9:14 pm

    I think what A.J. means is he’d be more comfortable pitching behind C.C. Knowing that most the pressure will be on him and his huge contract. That may make him more relaxed and a better pitcher.

    I wouldn’t call him a woosie. I wouldn’t call any pitcher that did as well as he did against the yankees last year, a woosie.

  314. Phil December 11th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

    CB

    They are pretty clearly loading up for the new stadium. They’ll get the pitching squared away first, then get a bat. They know the O was problematic beyond injuries last year.

  315. JD December 11th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

    CB- Pitching and defense is what Cash is after. Forget the days of ridiculous offense aka murder’s row and Cano. This is his stradegy and if it doesn’t work he’s gone in three years. This team as is will score enough runs if the defense can compliment the great pitching. Great pitchers are nothing without defense.

  316. Drive 4-5 December 11th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

    CB,

    Your thoughts about complimentary players is well taken. As much as Tex could benefit from having them in Boston, A Rod could suffer from not having them in New York. A rod is basically naked in this lineup. The pressure on him to produce this year will be immense. After last season’s performance, this could make or break him in New York. An investment in Tex protects the investment in A Rod.

  317. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 9:19 pm

    Team option on Crawford for 10 mil in 2010. Ugh.

  318. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 9:21 pm

    CB – Manny (in his prime) was certainly better than Texeira in his prime …. totally agree.

    Easily overlooked after Manny’s otherworldly performance in LALA Land is that he had started to slip over the last couple of years. Was it physical decline, or a disinterested effort? We’ll never know.

    But it’s unlikely that Manny continues his late 2008 production.

    Within that context, Texeira would definitely replace Manny’s recent productivity with Boston.

  319. CB December 11th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

    “The problem is that the Yankees lineup need another left-handed bat that can hit for power.”

    Last year at this time the team was far too left handed.

    Now it’s become far too right handed.

    One reason why Teixeira this year would be a better get than Matt Holliday next year (assuming the economy doesn’t get even worse by then).

    Though with Manny it makes absoltely no difference at all. He would hit right handed pitchers better than Matsui would.

    If matsui could play the outfield they’d have a much easier time of things. But it is what it is.

    And the line up isn’t horrible. They look to be an 825-850 run offense.

    Boston scored 845 runs last year. The only team that scored more than 850 runs in the AL last season was texas – 901.

  320. Michelle B. (X is the new black) December 11th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

    “BTW, I played Harding Park during Tuesday’s great weather, I was awful”

    ugghh rub it in why dont you…I have at least 6 months before i can think about swinging a club. I hate ACL’s and Crutches.

    Why is everyone so anxious to let Nady walk next yr? He has a good glove, a good arm, above avg. hitter and i dont think he would be ridiculously expensive.

  321. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 9:23 pm

    If AJ really would reject Atlanta just because he doesn’t want the pressure of being the #1, I think that kind of makes him a shmoe.

    Then again, I also think he would be a shmoe if he chose the Braves over the Yankees if the offers were about the same.

    So the best way for AJ to not be judged a shmoe would be if he decided he didn’t want to the the #1 pitcher for Atlanta because he preferred to be a Yankee.

  322. RSM December 11th, 2008 at 9:23 pm

    “I feel like this is closer to the kind of lineup we had in the late 90s than the kind of fantasy lineups we’ve had the last few years, maybe it will work well. we will be a much better team defensively and hopefully our pitching will be better too.”

    Ding, Ding, we have a winner.
    Finally, someone else sees this. I knew I couldn’t be the only one.

  323. YankeeJosh December 11th, 2008 at 9:24 pm

    I’ve heard that Montero most likely needs to be moved and first base is the likliest position but we’ve sen with Hughes and Kennedy the danger of just saving a spot for a minor leaguer. Passing on Teixeira because in two years Montero might be major league ready seems like a poor decision to me.

  324. evan December 11th, 2008 at 9:24 pm

    Anyone who thinks swisher should bat 3rd is an absolute moron

  325. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 9:25 pm

    kill.schill(ing)
    December 11th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
    Acquiring Manny would force the Yankees to trade Matsui, I guess. The problem is that the Yankees lineup need another left-handed bat that can hit for power.

    His name’s Juan Miranda.

  326. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 9:26 pm

    “A rod is basically naked in this lineup.”

    He can always wear his fancy cravat. :)

  327. CB December 11th, 2008 at 9:26 pm

    “Within that context, Texeira would definitely replace Manny’s recent productivity with Boston.”

    This is true. Question however. If he costs $200M will in context replacement for Manny’s recent lackadaisical production satisfy expectations?

    I don’t think they will. Boras keeps telling Tex this. Once you sign that contract your life is never the same.

    Manny’s lost nothing physically in terms of hitting. His at bats in LA that I saw were as good as any hitter I’ve ever seen. His pitch recognition and bat speed are unreal.

  328. george December 11th, 2008 at 9:26 pm

    when i compare this lineup to the Red Sox lineup, the only positions where the Yanks are better are 3B, SS, & C.

    isn’t the point to have a better team than Boston? Cameron doesn’t really help much. we already have 2 CFs who can cover a lot of ground; if you’re gonna get a CF, try getting who can hit!

    and Nady as the #3 hitter – jeez, anyone who thinks Nady is a #3 quality hitter is smoking crack.

  329. JD December 11th, 2008 at 9:28 pm

    RSM – Exactly. Tex would be sweet because he has great offens and defense but Manny,why? Long innings and poor defense does nothing for good pitchers who get in rythmes. Pace of game and good defense is all the Yankees need to win. Forget about 1000 run seasons. It would be nice but it’s not needed.

  330. Drive 4-5 December 11th, 2008 at 9:29 pm

    Nick,

    A Rod did look just swell in it too!

  331. YankeeJosh December 11th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

    “I feel like this is closer to the kind of lineup we had in the late 90s than the kind of fantasy lineups we’ve had the last few years, maybe it will work well. we will be a much better team defensively and hopefully our pitching will be better too.”

    D”ing, Ding, we have a winner.
    Finally, someone else sees this. I knew I couldn’t be the only one.”

    Where? Where are the .300 hitters with high on base skills? Outside of A-Rod, this team has no hitters as good as Bernie Williams (a switch hitter, sort of in the Teixeira mold), or Paul O’Neill. Where’s the .280 tough at bat First baseman like Tino Martinez? The Yankees line-up of the late 90′s wasn’t great but there were a lot of above average hitters. Posada and Jeter are older than they were then. Matsui is a good hitter but can he stay healthy? Swisher and Cameron aren’t in Tino and Bernie’s class.

    The Yankees may be trying to duplicate the 90′s offense but they haven’t succeeded imo.

  332. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

    Josh

    The fact that we have Swisher to keep the seat warm and that Montero could/should/would be ready to take over in a few years is just further reasoning/justification for not going crazy over Tex. I’m not advocating keeping roster spots open for unproven commodities, but you can’t have long-term contracts at every position. When you do that, you have no roster flexibility, and that’s where the Yankees have been for the past four years or so.

  333. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 9:33 pm

    YankeeJosh
    December 11th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
    I’ve heard that Montero most likely needs to be moved and first base is the likliest position but we’ve sen with Hughes and Kennedy the danger of just saving a spot for a minor leaguer. Passing on Teixeira because in two years Montero might be major league ready seems like a poor decision to me.

    Montero is a force of nature. He’s in that rare can’t-miss group.

  334. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 9:33 pm

    “I have at least 6 months before i can think about swinging a club.”

    That sucks, but at least they’re winter months? Not much of a consolation, I know.

    I put a round at Cypress on my Christmas list, but I don’t know if anyone in my family can give it to me. :(

  335. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    Bret-

    Questions I have:

    Who is the leadoff hitter after next season in place of Damon?—FA Chone Figgins?

    Who is the three hitter after next season in place of Matsui?–Matsui will not be 3 hitter, A-Rod will

    Who is the closer in 2009 if Mo gets inured?–Joba

    Who is the shortstop in 2009 if Jeter hits the DL?–Ransom

    If the Posada/Molina tandem falls apart again, who catches?–Cervilli

    “Are we thinking ahead at all? If anyone has a plan that addresses these questions please show me so I don’t blow my brains out.”

    Go see the movie “The Punisher.” Then you won’t blow your brains out!!!!!!

  336. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    I think the problem with signing Manny now is that if for some reason Posada’s shoulder isn’t fully healthy and he can’t effectively throw then Jorge will have to play 1b. Swisher would be sitting too much in favor of Mike Cameron because you can’t move Damon to CF just to fit Swisher in LF.

    I think the Cameron move clutters the roster and makes it severely inflexible to add another big bat like Manny. Signing Cameron forces Posada behind the plate with Manny on this team, not to mention the added financial burden of 10 million for Cameron that wasn’t there if we just let Gardner/Melky fight for the one role player spot in the entire lineup.

  337. jason December 11th, 2008 at 9:34 pm

    There are still a lot of corner outfielders/hitters out there. I would not rule out a possibility of one down the road after the pitching is squared away. How about Abreu if he comes back for smaller money and two years?

  338. bodhisattva December 11th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

    I don’t see Cameron and Swisher in any way like our late 90s guys. Decent OBP alone doesn’t qualify you. Giambi and Abreu are OBP guys, too.

  339. Drive 4-5 December 11th, 2008 at 9:37 pm

    The 1999 Yankees had 4 players that drove in 100 or more runs. What killed the Yankees last year was driving in runs. We really need huge comebacks from Matsui and Posada. Is it fair to expect that? I dont think so.

  340. mel December 11th, 2008 at 9:37 pm

    Jeezus crap! That’s a rich wish list for Ankiel. No wonder we went with Cameron. Thanks for that blurb, Gayle.

    Re: AJ being comfortable as a #2. It’s what he did behind Doc Halladay. So what? You’re not paying him ace money. I like the idea of having four #1/#2 types on my staff. Then you can rack up the wins in the regular season and have a great chance of getting wins in the post season.

    A little reminder of what the very near future may hold:

    CC
    AJ
    Wang
    Pettitte
    Joba (#5 because of innings)

  341. Tomer December 11th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

    I said it all along, Cameron is a good CF and we need a major upgrade over Gardner. Garden is still not ready to take the starting job and Melky is obviously a joke. This guy could still play the field and that is what we lack in the outfield right now. We also need some more power long with Swisher and that is what we get with Cameron. If you read my offseason preview article on bleacher report you will see that I said it all along, Cameron is a good fit in center.(http://bleacherreport.com/arti.....on-preview)
    Cameron will be a good fielder and a serviceable hitter even with his high strikeout numbers.

  342. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

    “I feel like this is closer to the kind of lineup we had in the late 90s than the kind of fantasy lineups we’ve had the last few years, maybe it will work well. we will be a much better team defensively and hopefully our pitching will be better too.”

    This is not anywhere near the linup we had in the late 90′s. That lineup was younger, more athletic, worked the counts, was unselfish and clutch with many comeback wins.

  343. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 9:39 pm

    CB – in Boston Manny swung through a zillion fastballs (to the point where the Sox announcers were commenting on it). And not just short-term …. for the whole season. He was a different hitter in LA.

    Re: Texeira and Red Sox fans …. if he hustles, and produces to his normal level, he’ll be fine. He doesn’t have to replace the 2003-4 Ramirez. There is less angst after the two championships (and excellent effort last season). Even Drew and Lugo, chronic underachievers, have been treated very well. Texeira will have to be abysmal to get the fans down on him.
    Fenway has become a happy, docile little place.

  344. Tarheelyank December 11th, 2008 at 9:40 pm

    Live with Swish in CF. Cameron for 10 mil is to much for a “stop-gap”. Swish is the better stop-gap. Sign Tex. Not only does it help us immensly but we keep him from the Sox.
    Sign 1 Of Burnett or Sheets.
    CC
    Wang
    Sheets-Burnett
    Joba
    Hughes, Coke, Aceves, Kennedy

    Damon
    Jeter
    Arod
    Tex
    Matsui
    Nady
    Posada
    Cano
    Swish

  345. george December 11th, 2008 at 9:41 pm

    “I feel like this is closer to the kind of lineup we had in the late 90s”

    2 problems w/this:

    Nady can’t compare w/O’Neill as a #3 hitter. Nady’s a decent player, O’Neill was top-shelf.

    those teams had better #7 hitters – Posada, for example – than Cameron.

    this lineup is one good hitter short. Teixeira, Abreu, Giambi….

  346. Michelle B. (X is the new black) December 11th, 2008 at 9:43 pm

    Since we are all speculating and/or playing the part of GM’s(God) i thought i would take a splash.

    NYY give up: Melky/Ian/melancon

    MWB give up: Ryan Braun

    Problem solved.

  347. Laura - Welcome, CC! December 11th, 2008 at 9:45 pm

    I’m curious as to why LAA hasn’t made an offer to Tex yet. Are they waiting for BOS to make their offer so that they can try and top it? Is Monero meeting with his accountants to see how much he can afford to spend? One would think he would have done that already. CC is done. They should have moved on Tex by now.

  348. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    Michelle B.

    that’s an awesome splash. :)

  349. Laura - Welcome, CC! December 11th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    “NYY give up: Melky/Ian/melancon

    MWB give up: Ryan Braun

    Problem solved.”

    Okay, let’s file this one away in the “Not a chance in hell” category. :P

  350. ray (sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

    I find it interesting what Brian is saying about Manny.

    While watching the Sox last year it did seem like Manny was striking out a lot more than in previous years while he was still in Boston.

  351. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

    Throwing this out there for discussion/criticism!

    Furcal started out at 2nd for the Braves-moved to SS, with great range. speed, and a rocket for an arm.

    Why couldn’t he adapt to CF for us, then next year sign Matt Holliday or Jason Bay for RF with Austin Jackson in left.

    In 2010 maybe Furcal could move back to SS, with Jackson in CF and Jeter to left.

    Dumb idea, huh??

  352. Kevin December 11th, 2008 at 9:48 pm

    I’d rather have Ryan Spilborghs. But, it’s not a terrible deal.

    I have to disagree with Pete on the lineup though.

    LF Johnny Damon
    SS Derek Jeter
    DH Hideki Matsui
    3B Alex Rodriguez
    C Jorge Posada
    2B Robinson Cano
    1B Nick Swisher
    RF Xavier Nady
    CF Mike Cameron

    Cameron will be the worst hitter in our lineup in case anyone didn’t know that. And Nady is NOT a 3rd hitter. I hope they will sign Adam Dunn and explore the trade market for Nady and/or Damon. Damon’s a great player, but he’d probably prefer to play CF somewhere, and lots of teams need a lefthanded hitting outfielder(Cubbies…) and other teams just need an outfielder(Braves, Reds). Nady’s value is at its highest and I could see him going to Cincinnati for Homer Bailey maybe?

  353. mel December 11th, 2008 at 9:49 pm

    *As families struggle … Yankees have the audacity to offer a pitcher nearly $23 million a year.*

    A quote from an espn thread about fans of smaller markets clubs being angry about CC’s deal.

  354. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 9:49 pm

    Let us hope for some contract year magic from Damon, Nady, Cameron, and Matsui…

  355. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 9:50 pm

    Mel, do ya think ESPN will run a similar quote if Boston gives tex 8/180?

  356. Al from BK December 11th, 2008 at 9:52 pm

    “**As families struggle … Yankees have the audacity to offer a pitcher nearly $23 million a year.**

    A quote from an espn thread about fans of smaller markets clubs being angry about CC’s deal.”

    Should the Yankees be responsible for Wall street effing up and the country being in the toilet? I am broke right now and my family is struggling but hey I’m not flying to Tampa to protest outside of the front office. Just another example of ESPN broadcasting Yankee-hatred.

  357. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2008 at 9:53 pm

    “Since we are all speculating and/or playing the part of GM’s(God) i thought i would take a splash.

    NYY give up: Melky/Ian/melancon

    MWB give up: Ryan Braun

    Problem solved.”

    Brewers won’t do that deal-but might give you Prince “bigger than his daddy” Fielder!!!

  358. Michelle B. (X is the new black) December 11th, 2008 at 9:54 pm

    Found something interesting on cbssportsline. It has on the roster depth page how many times a different lineup was used

    Angles 144
    Astros 115
    Athletics 133
    Brewers 75 (with cameron leading off in 109 games)
    Jays 128
    Rays 122
    Red Sox 141
    Yankees 117

  359. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 9:54 pm

    Ray …. it’s not just that Manny was striking out a lot …. he missed as many fastballs as Varitek. He was swinging through average fastballs, even early in the count.

    Was he disinterested? Who knows?

  360. mel December 11th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    Tom,

    Nope. They’d run an article about how great and lucrative baseball can be for African American athletes.

  361. mel December 11th, 2008 at 9:56 pm

    Brian and Ray,

    Really? You guys come here to bitch about Manny? Get a room. :)

  362. Michelle B. (X is the new black) December 11th, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    hey i’ll take prince — that man’s got wheels….He did hit more inside the park homers last yr than our whole team combined.

  363. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 9:58 pm

    Mel Tom and Al,

    I was watching PTI before, the Marlins president called in and said the Yanks are being irresponsible. :? I don’t know what’s that suppose to mean but its funny when a Marlin is talking trash. lol :)

  364. PAT M December 11th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

    The way the club is currently structured, Matsui is the only viable option to hit 3rd….That’s hoping he rounds out to what he was coming out of camp last spring….

  365. YankeeJosh December 11th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

    Roster flexibility matters when you make poor choices. Signing Burnett will hurt roster flexibility the same way signing Teixeira will. Except Teixeira has already shown what he can do and is an all around ballplayer. Something the Yankees need more of. Sign Teix and you don’t need to worry about firstbase for years. Move Montero elsewhere position wise or trade him for a bigger need if it comes to that in a few years.

  366. Tom December 11th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

    Wasn’t there talk of Manny asking out, or faking an injury, whenever a hard thrower was pitching because he didn’t what scouts to think he couldn’t hit a plus fastball?

  367. Michelle B. (X is the new black) December 11th, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    Does anyone know if Francisco Cervelli is projected to be a starter at any point?

  368. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 10:01 pm

    Yankee Trader,

    Will see Punisher. Last night I saw ‘Yes Man’ with Jim Carrey. It was a great movie. I just really like the way that man thinks. It’s a very powerful story laced with hilarious goofball comedy. I recommend everyone watch it.

    It’s based on the true story of a British man who was withdrawn from the world after breaking up with his girlfriend. A stranger tells him that he should say ‘Yes’ more often in life. He takes the advice and his life becomes completely unpredictable. It’s one laughing scene after another. And it will force you to think about life and the breakthroughs we achieve when we overcome the artificial limitations we place on it.

  369. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

    Kevin-

    “Cameron will be the worst hitter in our lineup in case anyone didn’t know that. And Nady is NOT a 3rd hitter. I hope they will sign Adam Dunn and explore the trade market for Nady and/or Damon. Damon’s a great player, but he’d probably prefer to play CF somewhere, and lots of teams need a lefthanded hitting outfielder(Cubbies…) and other teams just need an outfielder(Braves, Reds). Nady’s value is at its highest and I could see him going to Cincinnati for Homer Bailey maybe?”

    Questions?
    If you trade Damon who leads off-Jeter? and who do we get back? Also what teams are on his limited list of teams he will agree to be traded to?

    Do not want Homer Bailey!!

    Would actually like Adam Dunn as our DH, batting behind A-Rod. How do you move Matsui, who has a full NTC coming off knee surgery?

  370. Brian (Red Sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 10:04 pm

    Tom … I believe that some of Manny’s “injuries” may have coincided with a tough starting pitcher, but I really can’t confirm that.

  371. pat December 11th, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    “I was watching PTI before, the Marlins president called in and said the Yanks are being irresponsible. I don’t know what’s that suppose to mean but its funny when a Marlin is talking trash.”

    Yankees Hot Stove Tonight had the perfect answer for him. The Yankees don’t tell you how to spend the revenue sharing money they’ve paid your team for years so don’t tell them how to spend the money they earn to pay you not to pay your players. :smile:

  372. S.A.- CC you soon Mr. Sabathia December 11th, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    Prince Fielder and CC on the same team? Restaurant owners in the NYC-metro area weep with joy with just the thought of that happening.

  373. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 10:08 pm

    pat,

    lol oh yeah, the Hot Stove has the answer. I forgot about it. :)

  374. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 10:09 pm

    “Prince Fielder and CC on the same team? Restaurant owners in the NYC-metro area weep with joy with just the thought of that happening.”

    they are going to make those restaurants filthy rich! lol

  375. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

    Cameron? Prince Fielder?

    Are we building a roster or are we filling in CC’s Facebook page?

  376. Yankee Trader December 11th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

    Jake Peavy Rumors: Thursday
    By Tim Dierkes [December 11 at 8:20pm CST]
    8:20: Jon Heyman says that Peavy is frustrated by the team’s inability to trade him. His agent, Barry Axelrod, says that Peavy had begun to get used to the idea of being a Cub, and now that opportunity is apparently gone. Axelrod says if the Padres approach he and his client with a trade, they’ll consider it, but there won’t be any more lists of approved teams.

    Little premature thinking on Peavy’s part. Now he’ll have to get used to being a Dodger or an Angel, or just staying with next years last place team in the West!

  377. S.A.- CC you soon Mr. Sabathia December 11th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

    “they are going to make those restaurants filthy rich! lol”

    lol
    It’s all part of the Yankees master plan to win a championship and help the American economy.

  378. Wave Your Hat December 11th, 2008 at 10:13 pm

    With the Cameron deal back on I just can’t see the Yanks going for Tex or Manny. It just doesn’t square with anything we see reported.

    By all accounts Cashman is intent on signing two more pitchers. Evening assuming one of them is Andy and he signs for $10MM, the minimum we will pay for two is $25MM. In all likelihood, more.

    Cameron adds $10MM. I can’t see the Brewers eating a part of that.

    Now add Tex or Manny. That will be somewhere between $20MM and $25MM a year. Your payroll is now up around $225MM. Do you really think the Yanks will go there?

    Plus, if they get Manny, with the addition of Cameron they’ll have to move Matsui or Damon. That would lower the payroll, but also reduce the benefit they get from Manny. Plus, if it’s not Matsui, can Manny play LF in Yankee Stadium? Much different from Fenway, for sure.

    If the get Teixeira, with Cameron they’ll have to trade Nady, Swisher or even Damon. That will reduce the benefit they get from Teixera.

    Trading Damon or Matsui won’t be easy. Swisher or Nady would be easier.

    But at the end of the day, the payroll would be $212MM or more. That’s very unlikely.

    Another way. If they get CC, Cameron, AJ and Pettitte, that projects to be around a 99 win team. Is going above that worth the cost?

    I’d love it if they got Teixeira or Manny. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

  379. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 10:13 pm

    Michelle

    Cervelli has absolutely no power and is an incredibly mediocre hitter. He projects to be a Molina type with very nice defense. The Yanks like his receiving skills, leadership, and ability to call a game, but his bat is MIA. Defensive backup and nothing more.

  380. Drive 4-5 December 11th, 2008 at 10:13 pm

    Brian ( Red Sox fan),
    “Fenway has become a happy, docile little place.”

    After all my previous kind words, you lost me on this one. I live in Mass. I work with a bazillion Red Sox fans. Fenway is still a place of some of the most arrogant, obnoxious fans on earth. I’ve seen it first hand. I have a good friend ( albeit a Sox fan)who took his kids to a Sox game last year and the rowdiness of the drunks was even too much for him. Nothing has changed in that regard.

    Also, do not forget that the Fenway “Faithful” booed David Ortiz in September. David Ortiz! If Tex doesnt produced they will chop him up and make some nasty chowda out of him.

  381. jennifer December 11th, 2008 at 10:14 pm

    Peavy is a jack … He wants out, but he will only allow them to trade him to certain teams. What does he think that does to the Padres power? The cubs won’t trade anything but garbage knowing full well that the Padres GM was ordered to cut payroll. And knowing that Peavy will only approval trade to a few teams.

  382. Phil December 11th, 2008 at 10:17 pm

    Cervelli will walk more in a single season than most Molina’s will in a career. He hasn’t shown power yet, but he gives you quality ab’s.

  383. Phil December 11th, 2008 at 10:17 pm

    Peavy only wants to go to Maddox approved situations.

  384. cameron is not fun to watch December 11th, 2008 at 10:19 pm

    Bottom line is I can’t stand watching him play….I don’t see how this deal makes sense. I can’t wait to see all of his supporters complain how much he sucks during the season.

    Hope everyone enjoys watching strikeouts cause you’re going to see it…..a….lot.

  385. Cuz December 11th, 2008 at 10:20 pm

    Yankees 2009 Rotation

    CC
    Peavy
    AJ
    Pettitte
    Joba

    Book it

  386. mel December 11th, 2008 at 10:20 pm

    Brian & Ray,

    You guys are cool and everything, but isn’t there another place you can trash a New Yorker?

  387. pat December 11th, 2008 at 10:21 pm

    If the Yanks get AJ, the Braves will be back in for Peavy.

  388. blimpie December 11th, 2008 at 10:21 pm

    Cruz,

    What did you do to Wang?

  389. mel December 11th, 2008 at 10:22 pm

    Oops. Forgot the smiley face.

  390. jennifer December 11th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

    Peavy doesn’t want to be a Yankee…. BOOK IT>

  391. Cuz December 11th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

    CC
    Peavy
    Wang
    AJ
    Joba

  392. Teddy Vercetti December 11th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

    Cervelli has played just 21 games above A ball and has had just 5 homers in 4 minor league seasons…hardly a big-time prospect. However, he has a great reputation working with pitchers and is known to be a good receiver with a very good defensive skill set.

  393. Trevor December 11th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    “Yankees 2009 Rotation

    CC
    Peavy
    AJ
    Pettitte
    Joba

    Book it”

    Where’s Wang? Forget it not happening. Anyway in a fantasy world: CC Peavy Wang Hughes Joba

  394. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    “Peavy doesn’t want to be a Yankee…. BOOK IT”

    book!!

  395. CB December 11th, 2008 at 10:25 pm

    “in Boston Manny swung through a zillion fastballs (to the point where the Sox announcers were commenting on it). And not just short-term …. for the whole season. He was a different hitter in LA.”

    I agree. He looked very bad in boston last year.

    My point was that given how he basically looked like a completely different player last season once he went to LA you can conclude that the reason why he was missing fastballs in boston wasn’t because he lost bat speed but because he lost interest.

    Physically I don’t think he’s lost anything as a hitter other than motivation.

    His bat speed in LA was fantastic. He could hit any pitch and wasn’t getting fooled.

    Physically as a hitter there’s no evidence that he’s in decline.

    That was my point. That’s what his hitting in LA showed.

    Personally he’s a basket case…

  396. Gabe Paul December 11th, 2008 at 10:27 pm

    Panicking about the line-up now is similar to panicking about the rotation about a week ago.

    Last week it was Joba and Wang and pray for rain. Cash has a plan – and it isn’t complete yet.

  397. Brian C December 11th, 2008 at 10:27 pm

    Doubt the Cubs are picking up Peavy. Didn’t the owner of the cubs (the Tribune Comapny) just file for bankruptcy yesterday? Doubt they will be adding payroll. They will now be out of the Abreu stakes too.

  398. jennifer December 11th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3763838

    I don’t even have to see what the logo looks like to think it is stupid.

  399. Bret the Hitman December 11th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    There is a benefit to letting Manny sign with the Dodgers. He would overcrowd their outfield and force a trade of one or two of their outfielders:

    Manny
    Jones
    Pierre
    Kemp
    Ethier

    Who wants to take Andruw Jones’ or Juan Pierre’s contract off their hands and trade them a cost-controlled player like Melky in the process?

    It would seem like having Manny would put them in a position where they could explore trades for Matt Kemp.

  400. ray (sox fan) December 11th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    Hey mel, I didn’t intend to trash manny. I was just making the observation that he did strike out more this last year just like I would with any Sox player.

    I have said on here more than once that manny is one of the most gifted offensive players in all of baseball.

  401. Adam December 11th, 2008 at 10:30 pm

    I have no interest in bringing back Pettitte or betting on Peavy moving from the NL and Petco.

    CC
    AJ
    Joba
    Wang
    Hughes

    That works for me.

  402. Trevor December 11th, 2008 at 10:31 pm

    “I don’t even have to see what the logo looks like to think it is stupid”

    I saw it. It’s two little Red Sox on the cap. :lol:

  403. Nick in SF December 11th, 2008 at 10:31 pm

    Hanging Sox?

    Who’s first? J.D. Drew? Lugo?

  404. Phil December 11th, 2008 at 10:32 pm

    Cash giving Andy his final offer.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....r_to_.html

  405. ugh December 11th, 2008 at 10:33 pm

    LOL….hanging Sox is a fitting name for them.

  406. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    Cervelli ?

    I like him. He’s a dark horse. Very solid defense, and patience at the plate, with a potential high BA. He have been compared to Jason Kendall.

  407. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    …Nick Johnson could be our #3 hitter due to his patience.

    I love Nick Johnson.

  408. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 10:38 pm

    “…Nick Johnson could be our #3 hitter due to his patience.”

    I love Nick Johnson.

  409. Adam December 11th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

    “I love Nick Johnson.”

    So does his doctor.

  410. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 10:40 pm

    vinny,

    if the Nats seriously landed Tex, Bowden would sure dump him! I hope the Yanks are planning to take a flier on him.

  411. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 10:45 pm

    “if the Nats seriously landed Tex, Bowden would sure dump him!”

    tru. Oakland have been looking at him hard (internal debate between NJ and Giambi). However, we have better players to offer.

  412. jennifer December 11th, 2008 at 10:45 pm

    Nick’s insurance company doesn’t.

  413. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 10:46 pm

    actually, Bowden would prolly look to dump his contract and not much more. I expect.

  414. Mark (Brett is back) December 11th, 2008 at 10:46 pm

    I was just watching the replay of Yankees Hot Stove, and I don’t think Cashman slept at all the days he was in Vegas.

  415. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 10:47 pm

    poll:

    where does Tex go ?

  416. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 10:48 pm

    completely forgot YES Hot Stove.

    did i miss any info ?

  417. Flash December 11th, 2008 at 10:50 pm

    Is Pete Abe still in Vegas?

  418. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 10:52 pm

    “actually, Bowden would prolly look to dump his contract and not much more. I expect.”

    Yep, that’s more like it. Veras and Ramirez should do it?

  419. Ed - CC is a Yankee! December 11th, 2008 at 10:53 pm

    “completely forgot YES Hot Stove.

    did i miss any info ?”

    not really.

  420. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    Ramirez told a friend that he spends most of his time working out, watching cartoons and playing video games.
    - per Newsday

    my type of person.

  421. Mark (Brett is back) December 11th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    I would say all the writers went home today because we are getting no rumors tonight. Everyone is flying home.

  422. YankeeJosh December 11th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    completely forgot YES Hot Stove.

    did i miss any info ?

    YES is reairing it now until 11:30.

  423. vinny-b (bring back Petitte and sign Sheets at 2 yrs) December 11th, 2008 at 10:59 pm

    YankeeJosh: thank you. Not at the house right now. I believe it re-airs at 7am tho?

  424. Mark (Brett is back) December 11th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

    Cash said he expects the next week to be even busier then these past few days so it should be good.

  425. pat December 11th, 2008 at 11:03 pm

    I think Pete said he was staying in Vegas an extra day.

  426. PAT M December 11th, 2008 at 11:06 pm

    CB, I watched a ton of Manny after he landed here ….Man he was simply amazing….It seemed that he was on every pitch, as if he was seeing everything in slow motion….His hands were electric, incredible quickness, drove the ball where ever the pitch was….I don;t know what his #’s were with runner in scoring postition but it had to be eyepopping…..He has not lost a thing, in fact it was as if he was reborn…Free Agency does wonders I suppose…..Manny can still hit as well as anyone in the game, make no mistake….He’s a monster and a walking rbi….

  427. Jobatheheat December 11th, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    The funny thing about the Cameron trade is every one is acting like Gardner wont get to play if it happens. Gardners playing time will depend on how he performs. With Cameron or without. Cameron is a 1 yr stop gap guy with a power bat and a good attitude clubhouse wise. Gardner is and will be better then Melky. So f Gardner performs we will add one out fielder bring Ajax up and have Gardner for the next year. Cameron for 1 yr and 10 mil is a perfect fit for the Yankees situation. I always liked Melky but he has had 3 yrs now and only went downhill. If the Brewers do that trade we better grab Cameron quick and lay low for a while. Because that was straight up a robbery.

  428. CB December 11th, 2008 at 11:39 pm

    “I watched a ton of Manny after he landed here ….Man he was simply amazing….It seemed that he was on every pitch, as if he was seeing everything in slow motion….His hands were electric, incredible quickness, drove the ball where ever the pitch was….”

    Pat M,

    I couldn’t agree with more. Watching him was a jaw dropping experience.

    He was better than Alex was in 2007. I don’t know if I’ve personally ever seen a hitter look like that. Pujols perhaps.

    But your description was exactly right. His combination of hand speed and pitch recognition was just astounding. I don’t ever recall a hitter squaring up so many pitches with such regularity. I mean squaring up the pitcher’s pitch and just driving through the ball as if it were no effort in the least.

    He was always on the ball. Freakish. Explosive hands, pitch recognition, patience, driving the ball to all fields, astounding.

    He has lost nothing physically.

    And Pat to be honest with you – first time I looked in totality at his numbers in LA the first thing that popped into my head was Ted Williams 1941.

    Now there’s no comparison between them as obviously Williams did it for a season.

    But this was manny’s line in LA: .396/ .489/ .743. That’s a 1.232 OPS. On top of that 17 HR/ 53 RBI’s in 187 AB.

    That line is very reminiscent of what Williams did in 1941 – .406/ .553/ .735 OPS of 1.288.

    Obviously Williams was better and did it for a whole season.

    But the combination of getting on base around 50% of the time while at the same time slugging over .700 – for any period of time – is just unbelievable.

    He’s a machine. There’s no two ways about.

    If were to come back to the AL East, focused, and angry at Boston it would be utter destruction.

    But the big question of course is the focus. He could come back angry that he didn’t get the 4yr/100M boras promised and take it out on the team he played for.

    But there is no question – he’s lost nothing. He will hit 600 HR no problem if he wants to.

  429. Wiseman December 11th, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    Cameron has lost 2 steps and is at besta fair CF, he is not what he was 7 years ago or even 4 years ago. He is not as good a CF as Melky or Gardner. Yes he will hit 25 HR’s, but he is streaky and will do some 3 for 40′s along the way with 20 K’s. Not sure why the Yanks would want him. Is it just tossing money away? I’d rather let Gardner, Melky, Ajax and Swisher battle it out in March. At worst Ajax should be ready by August. Imagine Doug Meline is so mad that the Yanks out bid him by $60MM that he wants to punish the Yanks by giving them Cameron and making them pay his entyire salary. That should be warning enough. PETER, ask Cashman these things!

  430. Suave December 12th, 2008 at 12:00 am

    Offer manny 2 years 30 mil….if he wants to hurt boston so bad.he will take it..Arod + Manny is more potent than Ortiz + Manny

  431. Wiseman December 12th, 2008 at 12:01 am

    CAMERON IS THE ANSWER– HE IS 36 COMING OFF STEROIDS ISSUES — Cameron has lost 2 steps and is at besta fair CF, he is not what he was 7 years ago or even 4 years ago. He is not as good a CF as Melky or Gardner. Yes he will hit 25 HR’s, but he is streaky and will do some 3 for 40′s along the way with 20 K’s. Not sure why the Yanks would want him. Is it just tossing money away? I’d rather let Gardner, Melky, Ajax and Swisher battle it out in March. At worst Ajax should be ready by August. Imagine Doug Meline is so mad that the Yanks out bid him by $60MM that he wants to punish the Yanks by giving them Cameron and making them pay his entyire salary. That should be warning enough. PETER, ask Cashman these things!

  432. Suave December 12th, 2008 at 12:07 am

    Cameron coming to the AL you can drop his stats to a .220 avg 15 homers 170 strikeouts with below avg defense.is that worth 10 mil?..play Gardner everyday,if need be get someone at the trade deadline

  433. PAT M December 12th, 2008 at 12:18 am

    Unless the lineup gets some beef, no way can the Yanks afford Gardner in the lineupas a regular for any prolonged length of time….CB ,has meda a very compelling case about the lack of run production under that configuration….Cameron may not achieve his 08 numbers and then again he may…It’s a temp soultion, which is better than what they had last season…..

  434. Wiseman December 12th, 2008 at 12:19 am

    ON Manny – give him 3 years at $23MM a year with a additional $10MM deferred to 2015 if he has no suspensions or violations in his 3 years – That would give him $79MM over 3 years. I think he does it. Sign Burnett and Lowe at $$33MM a year combined and your payroll is still 10% under last year and would be about $180MM. Plus you can now trade Damon or Swisher and save from $10MM to $13MM and both would have suitors – cuts payroll to $170MM, whcih should make all happy. –Anything wrong with this???

  435. Wiseman December 12th, 2008 at 12:23 am

    The best you can hope from Cameron is .250 with 25 HR, 80 RBI’s and a fair CF with 15 SB’s and 175 K’s for $10MM. What you will see is .240, 20 HR’s, 70 RBI’s , 10 SB’s and 180 K’s if he get s 550 AB’s and a fair CF. He is 5 years past his prime. You can pick up better then this, Gardner will hit for a higher average, play a better CF, steal more bases. If Yanks get a Manny in the line-up Gardner is a better fit. PERIOD! Send Cabrera to Milwaukee who likes him for their CF spot for a young player.

  436. Wiseman December 12th, 2008 at 12:40 am

    ON Manny – give him 3 years at $23MM a year with a additional $10MM deferred to 2015 if he has no suspensions or violations in his 3 years – That would give him $79MM over 3 years. I think he does it. Sign Burnett and Lowe at $$33MM a year combined and your payroll is still 10% under last year and would be about $180MM. Plus you can now trade Damon or Swisher and save from $10MM to $13MM and both would have suitors – cuts payroll to $170MM, whcih should make all happy.—Anything wrong with this???

  437. MackNova December 12th, 2008 at 2:36 am

    I really don’t understand the problems people have with this trade. What have you seen from Melky that suggests he can be a starting outfielder? He really disappointed me last season, and apparently he disappointed the Yankees as well.

    Will Melky ever hit 25 home runs in a season like Cameron certainly could? Cameron also has better speed and defense than him.

    Cabrera is a backup outfielder and certainly replaceable in the long-term. Cameron has one year left, we can see how he does, and then if it doesn’t work out, we can move on and maybe get a pick.

  438. Jim in CT December 12th, 2008 at 2:42 am

    How does this makes sense for Milwaukee (unless Cameron is cooked)? Their farm is producing far better than the Melky Cabreras of the world. There are more productive ways to dump salary.

  439. Jim in CT December 12th, 2008 at 2:47 am

    Wiseman — anything wrong with that?
    —Well for starters, putting Manny (or a hobbled Matsui, if Manny DHs) in Yankee Stadium’s LF. Makes you sit other productive bats, and gives opponents a whole lot of rally-extending doubles and triples. Won’t happen. He’s going back to LAD on a 3/75 contract.

  440. GreenBeret7 December 12th, 2008 at 4:12 am

    Brian (Red Sox fan)
    December 11th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
    Ray …. it’s not just that Manny was striking out a lot …. he missed as many fastballs as Varitek. He was swinging through average fastballs, even early in the count.

    Was he disinterested? Who knows?

    ————————————————————

    Perceptions can be wrong. I have little use for Ramirez, but, he’s a Hell of a hitter. The fact is, last year, he didn’t strike out any more than he usually does. over every 162 game stretch, Ramirez strikes out 128 times in 578 at bats. Last year, 124 strike outs in 552 at bats. Next year, he’ll pass Mantle in career strike outs in about the same number of at bats.

  441. GreenBeret7 December 12th, 2008 at 4:15 am

    Jim in CT
    December 12th, 2008 at 2:42 am
    How does this makes sense for Milwaukee (unless Cameron is cooked)? Their farm is producing far better than the Melky Cabreras of the world. There are more productive ways to dump salary.

    ————————————————————

    You mean like the talent haul Philidelphia got for dumping Abreu and Lidle?

  442. Alvin December 12th, 2008 at 5:39 am

    The reason I (and a lot of guys here, it seems) don’t like Cameron isn’t because he’s not an upgrade over Melky/Gardener or anything like that. He definately is, both offensively and defensively.

    But these are the exact kind of deals that the Yankees can try to pass on to save money for other uses. If you’re trying to cut payroll without cutting talent, it’s the Camerons of the world that need to go.

    So you save 10 mil by sticking with Melky/Gardner (costing you maybe 1-2 games) and you save $5 mil by going with Pettite instead of Lowe. That’s $15 mil out of nowhere, and just like that you have 2/3s of Manny’s annual salary covered. I’m pretty sure Manny gives you more wins than the differential between Cameron vs. Melky, and Lowe vs. Pettite.

    Yankees took $88 mill off the books after 2008 and will take off another $35 in 2009. CC at $23, Burnett at $16, Pettite at $10 only equals $49 mill. Assume they want to lower payroll by $20 (which is a lot), and you’d still have $20 mil left over. You can either waste it away on Cameron and his ilk, or you can use that to sign a legit difference maker.

    Just because you have a $180 mil payroll doesn’t mean you shouldn’t count your pennys when it’s prudent to do so.

    Mike Cameron won’t win championships.

  443. rick December 12th, 2008 at 7:05 am

    I applaud the Yankees for spending money. All teams in professional sports are owned by super rich people and they could spend money too. The Steinbrenner family has always put their money back into building the Yankees. I applaud them.

  444. Serious December 12th, 2008 at 8:50 am

    Alvin, I admire your ability to to do random math. How can you say they will only cost use one game? How do you know that? Melky was God awful last year, and part of being on the Yankees is when it’s your time to shine as a young player and you do NOT, then your chance is pretty much over. We don’t have the time to keep a player in there to “mature”. Thats why Hughes/IPK aren’t guaranteed a rotation spot this year.

    Cameron is a veteran who IS an upgrade over Melky. And I don’t understand why everyone is screaming about Gardner, he will clearly be our fourth OF and will clearly get playing time. But he too is not ready for a starting CF job. How many people would be begging for this trade after the combo of Gardner/Melky produced nothing? And you know what, if Cameron stinks, then Gardner will get a full time job. He has more upside than Melky anyway.

  445. NY fan December 12th, 2008 at 9:10 am

    Now the Brewers want a second player in the deal. Cameron is not worth two players let alone Melky. Even if he comes to NY, he won’t start. Him and Swisher will set the MLB record for strikeouts in a season!

  446. Alvin December 12th, 2008 at 9:26 am

    Serious,

    I was using CB’s estimate of Cameron’s value over Melky/Gardener (net gain of 1-2 games) from a couple hundred posts up.

    Of course Cameron is an upgrade over Melky. But everybody knows that and it’s not the point. You can’t upgrade every position every year – you have to give some when you take some. In this case, Manny gives you so much more than Cameron. Cameron upgrades a position. Manny single-handedly transforms your team.

    You said:

    “How many people would be begging for this trade after the combo of Gardner/Melky produces nothing?”

    If Manny is raking up that those left-field bleachers behind ARod, with our projected rotation, I don’t think people will mind that we’re getting less power from CF since we’d have an OBSCENE line-up anyway, for relatively little cost.

    You then said:

    “And you know what, if Cameron stinks, then Gardner will get a full time job. He has more upside than Melky anyway.”

    This seems to be an argument *against* the necessity of the Cameron trade, not for it. Like you say, we already have two backup CFers in Melky and Gardener (Gardener being the one with the most upside) and a part-time CFer in Damon. Cameron would be a nice acquisition, but is he necessary? How good does Cameron over Damon and Gardner sound if it means cutting Manny?

    The bottom line is you can’t have it all, so you have to pick and choose. And my choice would be to use that $10 mil on Manny and have him cover for our lack of power at CF, which he can do multiple times over even when he’s NOT “on”.

  447. Alvin December 12th, 2008 at 9:35 am

    And to clarify I’m obviously not comparing Cameron to Manny vis-a-vis. I’m also not saying that the $10 mil saved will be enough to get Manny. But you save $10 mil by sticking with Gardner/Melky/Damon at CF, $5 mil by (hopefully) getting Pettite over Lowe, and $[a lot] mil by no longer having to get a bat for the otherwise weak 3 hole (like Dunn, for example). That’s a good chunk of money saved, and is more than enough to pay for Manny’s 2009 salary.

    Then in 2010 you have Damon and Matsui off the books so you have even more flexibility then.

    Overall this seems to make much more sense from a baseball and money standpoint.

  448. Travis Bickle December 12th, 2008 at 9:46 am

    Boston fans are falling down laughing at this sorry deal. All these snot nose fantasy geeks seem to miss it…Cameron is the king of swing and miss. A real rally killer. Amazing how many of these posters would be the same ones telling you to hang on to the pitchers who after 2 years or less have yet to reach thier potential..But melky and gardner they need replaced asap with a 3rd rate old never was.
    Must have more to do with thier fantasy team than anything. BIG NEWS: Sad thing is with “upgrades” like this Boston or Tampa will easily win the division. Fire Cashman now before it gets worse.

  449. AD December 12th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    Who is coming up with this fantasy that Hideki Matsui is going to bat 5th?? He is by far and away at best a number 7 Hitter, He is old and decrepid, My guess is that at some point this season the yanks make a deal for a bat if they need it. We’ve seen what sluggers have brought us in last few years…. a whole lotta nothing….

    I like this lineup of contact hitters and high OBP guys… No more OLD SLUGGERS>>>

  450. Mike December 12th, 2008 at 11:10 am

    Red Sox fans won’t be laughing once we Sign Manny !

  451. Peter December 15th, 2008 at 5:38 pm

    That’s what we need a guy for strikes out 28% of the time he is at bat…Abreu and Giambi were at about 20%…real great improvement.

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