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In the end, CC could be a bargain

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 14, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The contract Johan Santana signed with the Mets guarantees him $132 million over six seasons. There is a $25 million club option for 2014 or a $5.5 million buyout.

The option can vest, however, based on how Santana fares in the Cy Young voting or how many innings he pitches. If the option vests, Santana would receive $157 million over seven seasons.

CC Sabathia will receive $161 million over seven years if he fulfills the entire contract. So Sabathia cost only $4 million more. Santana’s average annual value would be $22.42 million, Sabathia’s $23 million.

The difference is that the Yankees did not have to surrender any prospects, which is what the Mets had to do. This is what the Yankees intended to do all along. While they took the hit in 2008, they benefit in the long term by not shedding any prospects.

Meanwhile it’s amusing to read so many columnists in New York and elsewhere criticizing the Yankees for spending so much money on Sabathia and A.J. Burnett. These are the same people who ripped Cashman for not getting Santana and would have called for his head had Sabathia signed with another team.

I can’t say I agree with every move Cashman has made. But he can’t win. If he spends money, he’s evil. If he doesn’t spend money, he’s foolish. Until baseball changes the rules, the Yankees are playing by the rules.

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315 Responses to “In the end, CC could be a bargain”

  1. Patrick Bateman December 14th, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    Pete that is great logic, except that the prospects the Mets gave up for Santana weren’t that great.

    If Boston had traded Lester and Ellsbury or Masterson as reported for Santana you’d have a stellar point.

  2. StevenM47 December 14th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    I’m sick and tired of hearing whiny Mike Lupica b*tch and moan everytime the Yanks sign someone….yet he doesnt say a word when his precious Sox or Mets go spend $$$ on players.

  3. Laura - With this pitching staff, how can we lose? December 14th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    The people who are complaining about the Yankees spending money are just jealous that their team can’t afford to do the same. The guy from the Marlins should be embarrassed to be running off at the mouth. If it weren’t for the Yankees and the revenue sharing and luxury tax that they pay, there wouldn’t even be a Florida Marlin team!

  4. bill December 14th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    great point pete, it’s pretty disgusting how much the yanks get knocked. when the red sox spend 100 mil to get dic-k, the media says nothing. that jd drew 75 mil signing was great also.

  5. Peter Abraham December 14th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    Carlos Gomez is their starting center fielder and the Twins love him. And they like Deolis Guerra a lot.

    No offense, Patrick, but I’ll take the Twins when it comes to talent evaluation. Their track record is pretty good.

  6. SoCalYankeeFan December 14th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    What those same “journalists” fail to mention is that the Yankee payroll will be LOWER this year. Even if they sign Pettite and get Cameron, there payroll will be around $180M compared to $209M last year.

    SoCalYankeeFan 8)

  7. crawdaddie December 14th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

    The Steinbrenners and Cashman should show the rest of baseball their middle finger and sign Teixeira too. If they’re going to complain about the money being spent then you might as well go all the way.

  8. Groundhoggator December 14th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

    Here’s how Cash can have his cake and eat it too… Forget resigning Pettitte and open the 5th slot to one of the youngsters. With the depth of the pitching – he can easily fill the slot between Aceves, Coke, Hughes, and Kennedy.
    He can also allow Gardner to be the starting CF. He is a plus defender and give these pitchers a comfort level in CF.

    He can take the 10 mil saved from Pettitte’s salary and the 10 mil saved from Cameron and sign Texeira to 7 yr /175 and get a plus defender at 1b and a #3 hitter in front of AROD

  9. CB December 14th, 2008 at 4:18 pm

    From the last thread…

    “my position is that the yankees are new at development and that they make a lot of mistakes because of this. i would say they tend to rush prospects.”

    randy,

    I agree with you. I think they are new to this and are making mistakes.

    But I’d also say that might be inevitable. Any time any organization tries to change its direction mistakes are going to happen.

    And they have. The yankees were trying to change as an organization in two ways in the past few years.
    1. Re-emphasize player development
    2. Become a pitching first organization again.

    Those are just not easy to do – they are particularly hard to do at once, especially in the transition period.

    As you move from one organziational model to another there’s going to be a transition period where you’re likely to be thin – when you’re moving away from the old way and into the new way.

    But that transition point is brittle and fraught with pitfalls.

    That’s why not trading for Santana was such a seminal event for the franchise, IMO. It emphasized patience and the willingness to save young talent while waiting to risk money this winter instead. Which is what the yankees should be doing.

    Now you made the point that you think the yankees have rushed prospects. I agree with this. I wasn’t happy they called up Hughes when they did as I didn’t think he was ready.

    But part of rushing prospects is related to trying to change – when you change a talent gap develops and its tough to fill. I think they wound up rushing some talent in order to avoid getting more older veterans to fill in those gaps.

    I bring this up because I think you have to look at AJ Burnett in this light.

    Burnett was signed not only because of his talent/potential – but because he was way of not needing to try to rush Phil Hughes or any other young pitcher again.

    Burnett is monstrously expensive but that’s part of the price of not rushing prospects. You have to fill in the cracks.

    AJ’s a huge risk. But I think he’s the kind of guy who could really help as they transition to a younger staff. Yes he blocks up a rotation spot – but he also gives guys like Hughes and Brackman time to grow.

    Glad you like fangraphs. The big thing with that site is the player related data they have on it – just search for any player. It’s really unbelievable. The articles they write are good – but they do tend to over read numbers.

    Forgot to mention what is perhaps my favorite sight. It’s a bit different than most and narrower as it’s only on pitching. But it’s very unique. It’s a sight run by Josh Kalk who has done a lot of work looking at the new Pithc F/X data.

    As a former catcher I think you’ll love it once you get used to looking at it’s data.

    http://baseball.bornbybits.com/2008/pitchers.html

    This is the link to the main site. Josh also has a web based tool that allows you to do specific searches. Take a look at the player cards first.

    I use this site a lot and have really used it a bunch this hot stove season as the yankees have batted around acquiring so many pitchers and the data has got collection on pitch f/x matured a lot in 2008. Much better than 2007.

    Take a look at CC’s player card. Wow. He’s just close to the ideal pitcher. His stuff is phenomenal.

    For fun – take a look at the plot of CC’s release points. What an athlete. And then for comparison click on Josh Beckett’s card and take a look at his release points.

    CC is an amazing athlete. As big as he is – his ability to repeat his delivery and find a common release point for all of his pitches is just phenomenal.

    The data on AJ Burnett’s stuff is also just unbelievable. It’s hard to get over how nasty his stuff is. Burnett’s curve ball might be the most unique pitch any pitcher in the game throws. I don’t know how the guy hasn’t won more games. Hopefully that changes.

  10. Upstate December 14th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    Minnesota was asking for quite alot from the Yankees & RedSox.
    Took minimal parts of a weak Mets minor league program.
    Wanted to ‘stick it’ to NY & Boston if Santana was to remain in the AL. No other teams involved as best as I remember.

  11. Garym December 14th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    Good post Pete,thats exactly right. Do you still think the Yanks wont get manny or Tex, because it sure looks like they are in on Tex which may be a ploy but if not him then they look like they want Manny

  12. Baseball Beat December 14th, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    I agree 100%, Cashman can’t win.

  13. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 4:24 pm

    I thought a 17 point spread was too much for an NFL game :)

  14. westy December 14th, 2008 at 4:24 pm

    These are the same columnists who can’t distinguish the Yankees asking for the City to issue completion bonds on their behalf – the Yankees will be responsible for paying debt service on the bonds- and asking the City outright for money.

  15. Matthew Cohen December 14th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

    Sabathia was a no brainer. Pete is 100% right.

    The Burnett signing was a mistake, in my opinion. His injury history makes him too much of a risk at that salary and contract length.

    It would have made more sense to sign Texiera for a few dollars more. He will be far more likely to be healthy and productive for the full term of the contract.

    You can’t have the strategy of filling every hole every year with stars. If you do that, you overpay and sign dumb contracts. Tex is a solid player that comes around once in a decade at each position. We should have targeted him. Pitchers should only be signed for 3+ years if they have a history of pitching 200+ innings per year.

  16. K-ace December 14th, 2008 at 4:28 pm

    Your completely right Pete, I think people complain to much though. Although everyone is entitled to their opinions, I think some should keep their mouth shut because the Yankees are playing by the rules and doing everything fair.

  17. Matthew Cohen December 14th, 2008 at 4:28 pm

    Pete if AJ is on the DL half of the year, what will his nickname be?

    You can’t use the Raja of Rehab again.

  18. CB December 14th, 2008 at 4:30 pm

    “Meanwhile it’s amusing to read so many columnists in New York and elsewhere criticizing the Yankees for spending so much money on Sabathia and A.J. Burnett. These are the same people who ripped Cashman for not getting Santana and would have called for his head had Sabathia signed with another team.”

    Pete,

    This is exactly correct. It’s hard to listen to these people squawk. They are completely inconsistent. They don’t write anything based on any rational other than sensationalism.

    Last year it was a scandal when they didn’t trade for Santana and they were just a stupid organization.

    This year they are just throwing money at their problems.

    But getting CC this year was much less expensive in terms of money+ talent then getting Santana last year. It’s not even comparable in price.

    But it’s still somehow the wrong move?

    The icing on the cake will come if the sox sign Tex. Then we are going to hear every talking head on the planet go on and on about how Theo is a grand genius while ignoring the $200M contract it took to land tex.

    Somehow that 200M will be the perfectly efficient use of funds on a player the sox have rationally targeted for years, etc.

    Somehow $160M for CC is profligate waste while $200M on Tex is efficient resource allocation.

  19. S.A.- CC you soon Mr. Sabathia December 14th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    “Meanwhile it’s amusing to read so many columnists in New York and elsewhere criticizing the Yankees for spending so much money on Sabathia and A.J. Burnett. These are the same people who ripped Cashman for not getting Santana and would have called for his head had Sabathia signed with another team.”

    —————————————————

    Totally true.
    Big old “whateva!” to them from me

  20. sunny615 December 14th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    It would seem Buster Olney agrees with you Pete and CB:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....ney_buster

  21. E-Man December 14th, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    “No offense, Patrick, but I’ll take the Twins when it comes to talent evaluation. Their track record is pretty good.”

    Yeah.. Just look at David Ortiz.. Oh wait..

  22. Marcus December 14th, 2008 at 4:34 pm

    You are singing my song!

  23. Keith FL December 14th, 2008 at 4:34 pm

    scream at the SF Giants for paying a decling Barry Zito 7 years $126 million, that started to set the market for starters so high…whatever…the Red Sox spent over 200 million the winter they didn’t make the playoffs in 06 on Lugo, Dice-K,and Drew and then won the WS….all the bigger market teams spend alot so everyone can stop screaming at the Yankees…we haven’t had a true ace pitcher in a long time, so playing by the rules we have signed 2…let’s go for # 27 Yankees!!!!

  24. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    Aceves is not an Ace.

  25. CB December 14th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    “It would have made more sense to sign Texiera for a few dollars more. ”

    Teixeira’s contract will involve 250% more guaranteed money than Burnett’s will.

    I don’t see where this whole “few more dollars” idea is coming from.

    Business worry about fixed costs. AAV is important but it’s the guaranteed money that is the issue in any contract.

  26. Bill Porter December 14th, 2008 at 4:38 pm

    “. . . But he can’t win. If he spends money, he’s evil. If he doesn’t spend money, he’s foolish.”

    That sums things up pretty nicely Pete.

  27. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    ” I would not bet so much as a penny on the Yankees acquiring Manny Ramirez, Ben Sheets or Mark Teixeira. Andy Pettitte can come back, and Mike Cameron will come aboard if the Brewers take Kei Igawa. If deals involving those two guys can’t happen, then maybe a starting pitcher/centerfielder in those price ranges (one-year investments for about $10 million) will wind up in the Bronx. But that’s about it.”

    http://blogs.trb.com/sports/ba....._of_t.html

  28. mel December 14th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    Did Tex’s heart just soar at the news of Yankees interest?

    BTW, the CC deal will be very inexpensive. About $69M or so. If he has 3 great years with us, will he opt out at the age of 31? It’s a very real possiblity that he could get a new 6-year deal.

  29. Patrick Bateman December 14th, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    No offense taken Pete.

    Good thing the Twins held on to Matt Garza. He might have helped another team get into the playoffs in 2008 if they had traded him.

  30. RayVTNC December 14th, 2008 at 4:47 pm

    Pete!

    Thanks for your opinions and updates! This is a great board!

  31. RayVTNC December 14th, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    Patrick

    It would have cost the Yankees a lot more because the Twinkies would have had to explain trading their ace to an AL team & to an arch enemy at that!

  32. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    The Yankees didn’t have a Delmon Young to give the Twins.

  33. RayVTNC December 14th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    BTW, Ortiz was on steroids after his last Twin year. He went from a line-drive hitter who was often injured to a great HR & clutch hitter for the Sox.

  34. randy l December 14th, 2008 at 4:51 pm

    cb-
    where does josh kalk get all that info? it is very interesting even at first glance. i wasn’t sure how to read the release point data. it didn’t look like beckett’s release point was much more inconsistent than sabathia’s. i then looked at ben sheets’ release point and that looks very inconsistent. i’ll , as you say, have to get more familiar with looking at the data. it does look like a lot of very specific right to the point data.

  35. yankee21 December 14th, 2008 at 4:51 pm

    Good points Pete.

    At the end of the day the money invested in CC, AJ and perhaps an impact bat, will help the Yankees first get back to the playoffs, go beyond the first round and hopefully become champions again.

    For the baseball financial insiders here, I’d love to know what the incremental revenue stream generated by the Yankees is for making the playoffs (1-2 home games) vs. not, and then, going deeper in the playoffs vs. just the first round.

    I don’t have these numbers but logic would say that even if the Yankees had one more playoff game, that in and of itself pays for the extra $$ the Yankees might have to pay out to attract a free agent to NY.

    thoughts?

  36. Patrick Bateman December 14th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    I also think the last line about Cashman is pretty interesting. You’re right, either way he gets torched by the media.

    I’m not a Cashman supporter by any means, but I do think he did the right thing this year. If he had missed out on Sabathia I would have roasted him to no end.

  37. jennifer December 14th, 2008 at 5:00 pm

    RayVTNC December 14th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    BTW, Ortiz was on steroids after his last Twin year. He went from a line-drive hitter who was often injured to a great HR & clutch hitter for the Sox.
    ——

    HMMM can that be the reason that he was awful this year?

  38. Joe from Long Island December 14th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

    jennifer, you’re not the only one to wonder about that.

  39. JackJ December 14th, 2008 at 5:05 pm

    RayVTNC – First off, where have you heard that Ortiz has even been on steroids? Secondly, steroids don’t help a player in the clutch. Fact is, Twins thought he didn’t have enough talent and the Sox identified his potential. Their farm results prove their eye for good players.

    Any way, I agree that Cashman will never win in this city. A lot of the fans started off in the 90s and are shocked by the lack of a recent WS ring. Until Cashman (and Arod for that matter) bring a championship to NY, the idiotic bashing will continue.

  40. Bill December 14th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    Good point Pete. Today I have read comments/ stories about how much revenue sharing $ the NYY contribute every year, yet the guy from the Marlins complains about the NYY. I’ve read how the NYY 2009 payroll will be lower than 2008. I’ve read how the NYY spend to try to win but SD is dismantling it’s team and MLB doesn’t say anything and on and on. I’ve been a NYY fan for 50 years and that is part of the fun of being a NYY fan. Love ‘em, hate ‘em but people do not ignore them. They are relevant to sports and fun to root for, and I imagine fun for you to cover. Imagine being a fan or beat writer for the Pirates. What do you look forward to? What news is there to cover?

  41. E-Man December 14th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    “BTW, Ortiz was on steroids after his last Twin year. He went from a line-drive hitter who was often injured to a great HR & clutch hitter for the Sox.”

    You can’t just take steroids and eat cheese burgers.. it doesn’t work that way.

  42. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 14th, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    “You can’t just take steroids and eat cheese burgers.. it doesn’t work that way.”

    That’s why there is pizza and milkshakes.

  43. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 5:09 pm

    Papi sipping Dominican Happy Juice? Say it ain’t so.

    Meanwhile, don’t kid yourselves: the Patriots are still a very good team.

  44. randy l December 14th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

    “Good thing the Twins held on to Matt Garza. He might have helped another team get into the playoffs in 2008 if they had traded him.”

    sometimes a player just doesn’t fit in with a team philosophy. the way i understand it, garza wasn’t progressing the way he should have with twins because he was resisting the coaching he was being given at the minor league level.

    sometimes a trade like that is a wake up call to that kind of player. i know garza in the latter part of his last year with the twins had a face to face with stan cliburn the twins triple a manager where cliburn told him that he was wasting his talent because of his attitude.

    being told this and being traded has a way of making a player want to prove everyone wrong. if he wasn’t traded he might have stayed uncoachable.

    i think the twins set a good example for everyone else in the organization that no one was bigger than the team way of doing things. you might have noticed that they were right there in the end for a playoff spot.

    this may have just been a good trade for everyone.

  45. JR December 14th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

    If baseball changes the free agency rules, or adds a salary cap, the loudest complaints will come from the Bronx

  46. Alexander December 14th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

    I read that the Yankees are targeting Texiera, and Manny given that their is still quite a bit of money left. George King mentions it. Can the Yankee’s really go for Manny??

  47. Vrsce December 14th, 2008 at 5:15 pm

    Here is a NY Times article by R. Sandomar as to why the Yankees have to spend:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12.....f=baseball

  48. Sports Update December 14th, 2008 at 5:17 pm

    The reality is that Manny is not a good fit with Girardi but the Yankees have always been about fielding the best team they can (and money can buy). They need another bat and Manny would be perfect. He is also buddies with A-Rod. Yankees are not serious about Texeira — just keeping their nose in there to drive up the price for the Red Sox and Angels.

  49. CB December 14th, 2008 at 5:21 pm

    “where does josh kalk get all that info? it is very interesting even at first glance. ”

    randy,

    I thought you’d like that release point info.

    Josh get’s that data from something called Pitch F/X. I’m sure you’ve seen MLB Gameday – how they are able to tell you what pitch has been thrown and how much it breaks, etc. That’s all Pitch F/X data.

    Every MLB stadium is now equipped with three different camera’s that are focused on different points from the pitchers mound to the plate.

    Using those three camera’s and a radar gun they can estimate the pitches speed and movement and from those make an assessment of what pitch was thrown (their estiate of what pitch was thrown is very good – better than I thought it would ever be).

    Josh was just the one to take the initiative pour through the data and put it into a form that people could use. He’s done fantastic work on this.

    My point on the comparison between CC’s release point and becket’s was just to point out how unbelievable CC is. Becket is fine on his release point but there’s some difference in it depending on which pitch he’s throwing. With CC there is almost none at all – which is part of the reason why CC has 3 true plus pitchs and Becket two true plus pitches.

    The circle of dots for CC’s release points is very small. That means that the variation in his release point is very small. The area of that circle is miniscule.

    CC’s release point is also why he has such good command.

    Sheets was a good one to look at – there the difference is very obvious, particularly for his fastball.

    That may be why he’s getting hurt so much – inconsistent mechanics.

    Anyway – you can see why I like that data so much.

    It’s really the intersection between scouting content and statistics.

    Josh writes a lot for the Hardball Times. Pasted below is the link to the archives of Pitch F/X related articles they have there.

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/a.....ges/view/1

  50. hobbie December 14th, 2008 at 5:22 pm

    If A.J. makes trips to the D.L. he can be referred to as the sultan of suffering or American Idol #2

    I still think the Yankees need to add a bat beyond the aptly named Swisher. How much for one year of Ankiel? Any merrit to resigning the Giambino?

  51. able 21 December 14th, 2008 at 5:22 pm

    As long as the Yankees are playing within the rules that MLB and the owners have agreed to, I don’t care if the payroll is 400 million a year.

    Cash is king. Get Texiera. Get Sheets. And I might add, resing Abreu. P.S. Trade Matsui. Sayonara. Thanks for the memories. Hope your knees are feeling better. Good Night.

  52. Glenn December 14th, 2008 at 5:23 pm

    Pete makes valid points. No matter what Cashman does he’ll get criticized. Let Sabathia or Burnett lose a game or see Swisher strike out and it’s all Cashman’s fault. Even if the Yankees go 161 – 1, it’s Cashman’s fault for losing one game.
    Like any GM, he’s entrusted to put the best product on the field only he has a bigger budget to use.
    Blame the talent evaluators if anybody.

  53. Kevin December 14th, 2008 at 5:24 pm

    And the best deal may be if CC opts out after three years. He could only do that, however, if he pitches well for three years, and shows no decline toward the end. In effect, the Yanks have very good pitcher who will be on his
    “contract year” for three straight years. If he pitches great and still wants to leave for SF or whereever, God bless him. But don’t discount that he and his wife fall in love with NY. The kids will be established in schools too. You can never guarantee against a poor performance, but that’s really the only downside. If CC is injured and can’t pitch, I would think some percentage of that would be insured.

  54. gayle December 14th, 2008 at 5:25 pm

    For those missing baseball domincan League is live on ESPN Desportes now

  55. able 21 December 14th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

    Kevin. Good point. After three years of NYC cuisine instead of Milwaukee/Cleveland, CC may weigh 800 pounds. I think the Yanks thought that thru well.

  56. vinny-b (bring back Petitte) December 14th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

    “Trade Matsui. Sayonara. Thanks for the memories. Hope your knees are feeling better”

    Matsui have been the best post-dynasty player not named Arod, yet he is continually disrespected.

  57. able 21 December 14th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    Vinny B

    May have been……that’s the key past tense phrase.
    I thought he was great. Time to move on.

  58. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    I don’t trust Tex or Manny or Sheets to protect us from Mothra:

    http://tinyurl.com/6mxkf5

  59. vinny-b (bring back Petitte) December 14th, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    able: what was Matsui’s average last year? And average with runners in scoring postition?

  60. able 21 December 14th, 2008 at 5:31 pm

    And Vinny – Pettitte is another one. I love the guy, but he was anything but clutch this past season. I say, commit the 10 million to Texeira etc, and let Hughes be the No. 5. We have other youngsters to fill in that role should he slip.

  61. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 5:31 pm

    I haven’t seen any projections, but I do think the Red Sox offense will take a step back next year. Kevin Youkilis is not going to have a .950 OPS again. Plus Ortiz and Lowell may be hurt.

  62. myrtlebeachfan December 14th, 2008 at 5:32 pm

    I absolutely love the clutch Matsui and i expect a resurgence this season. Discounting him and Posada is a huge mistake, as both will be in good offensive form come this season. The only thing to worry about is whether Posada can catch, but he most certainly can hit. He hit last year with shoulder problems and if he has to, he’ll do it again.

  63. able 21 December 14th, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    Vinny – stats don’t answer the issue. He causes a log jam. He is either a DH, or he forces Damon to fill that role. Using them that way IMO is not the best way of having consistent offense.

  64. gabe paul December 14th, 2008 at 5:44 pm

    StevenM47
    December 14th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
    I’m sick and tired of hearing whiny Mike Lupica b*tch and moan everytime the Yanks sign someone….yet he doesnt say a word when his precious Sox or Mets go spend $$$ on players.
    ************************************************************

    IMO Lupica has become unreadable. He is a broken record- rehashing the same stuff over and over. I don’t expect NY “homerism” – but he is so anti-Yankee it’s beyond belief.
    (I can’t even watch the Sports Reporters on ESPN anymore because of him)

    Pete – on the rare occasion Lupica visits the Yankee press box does he really sit on three Manhattan phone books?

  65. JUSTIN December 14th, 2008 at 5:47 pm

    CASH PLEASE SIGN TEXXXXXXX ……
    DAMON
    JETER
    TEX
    AROD
    MATSUI
    POSADA
    SWISHER …NADY
    CANO
    CENTER FIELDER
    TRADE NADY

    ROTATION
    CC
    WANG
    AJ
    JOBA ASSORTED BUMB THA HAS A GOOD SPRING TRAINING
    OR SIGN PET OR SHEETS BUT THAT WOULD PUT THE PAY ROLL BACK UPP TO 200 MILL+ MAYBE

  66. Steamer December 14th, 2008 at 5:49 pm

    Lupica’s anti-Pettitte arguments are the best. He keeps going back to Game 6 of the 2001 World Series everytime that he needs to make a point and never once even acknowledges the rumors that he was tipping pitches. Probably doesn’t serve his agenda to do that.

    Pete’s comments are pretty much spot on.

  67. randy l December 14th, 2008 at 5:50 pm

    cb-
    i think i’ll start out slowly with the data that jumps out at me and let the rest sink in as i get exposed to it. it’s definitely interesting stuff. thanks again for these sites.

  68. Bob December 14th, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    I really wish baseball had a salary cap.

    Then every team would have to strategize where, and how to invest their money.

    A level playing field, for ALL teams.

    Would the Yankees be the best? The Pirates? The Padres?
    Who knows, now THAT would be great to watch.

    The sport as it is now, is basically ruined.

  69. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 14th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Justin tell us how you really feel. I didn’t catch any of that.

  70. Phil December 14th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    There’s a rumor floating around that the Yanks have offered Manny 3/65.

    If true, let’s hope Sox fan Lupica’s head explodes.

  71. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    One could make the argument that there has been more parity in Baseball then in either the NFL of NBA.

  72. Scott December 14th, 2008 at 5:58 pm

    all we need is teix or manny and we will be set.

  73. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 14th, 2008 at 5:58 pm

    Justin, english please. that was just pure gibberish.

  74. Matthew Cohen December 14th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

    “Business worry about fixed costs. AAV is important but it’s the guaranteed money that is the issue in any contract.”

    A 30 year treasury has less risk than a 2 year piece of GM paper.

    Burnett has a history of getting hurt – I would argue that 5 years of Burnett is way more risky than 8 of Tex. Also, in 6 years, $20 million will not be so much money for a good 35 year old 1B.

  75. PLEASE SIGN TEX December 14th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

    CASHMAN! Please sign TEX… He would make such a great Yankee… I wanted him more than CC… I can’t live without him! I obssessed with him! I will become a Red Sox fan if he signs with Boston… He fits our team perfectly .. Why are we ruining this opportunity? TERRILE TERRIBLE TERRIBLE!

  76. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 14th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

    “I will become a Red Sox fan if he signs with Boston”

    ok bye!

  77. Ty December 14th, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    Matsui had a .417OBP/.452 Slug/.330BA before the 2008 AS break. Due to Melky craping the bed offensively, Girardi was forced to play Matsui in LF and Damon in CF. Matsui’s non-surgically repaired knee gave out on him. Both knees are now repaired. I expect a similar effort for 2009 sans any further injuries. In the scheme of things beside the 2nd half of 2008 and 2006 (broken wrist) he has been remakably durable, yet misinformation seems to flourish as an exuse to get Tex or Manny.

  78. LoopyLarry December 14th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    Pete, I basically agree with you that Cashman will get bashed in the media either way. From my standpoint, a fair criticism of Cashman would be that the offense clearly needs help, yet the Burnett contract will probably prevent the Yankees from geting the offensive help that a guy like Dunn would give them, or better yet the offensive/defensive help that Teixeira would have given them. But instead he locked up AJ long-term. It was a very unbalanced attack at the free agent market (although I suppose he could still land a big hitter). Of course it is crazy to attack a GM for not giving out two contracts close to 200 million dollars to players, so I can’t knock him for choosing CC over Teixeira. But Dunn could be had at a reasonable price and without giving up prospects and for fewer than 5 years. Yet the Yankees committed way more money to an injury prone pitcher and for 5 years. This seems ill-advised, to say the least, especially if it prevents them from upgrading the offense.

  79. randy l December 14th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

    “A level playing field, for ALL teams.”

    sounds good on the surface, but what does it really mean? for example, do you really want to send the profits from the best restaurant in your town to the worst ? that would be leveling the playing field too . the good restaurant wouldn’t be as good and the worst restaurant wouldn’t be any better because they wouldn’t have to.

    i think a better approach to leveling the playing field would be to loosen the exclusive rules for mlb cities and let more teams into new york, boston, philadelphia, etc. that way, a city like new york would not be split just two ways or a team like boston getting almost all of new england’s fans.

    the more interesting solution for leveling the playing field is for more competition, not less.

  80. Kevin December 14th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

    Going back to the very first post by Patrick – it doesn’t matter tht the Mets got off light with what they traded for Santana. Minny was demanding much more from the Yanks and Boston. Neither team would have gotten the steal the Mets got.

  81. Nicholas December 14th, 2008 at 6:12 pm

    I stopped reading Lupica a long time ago.

    I just skip his column in the News.

  82. Kevin December 14th, 2008 at 6:13 pm

    The rules in place now attempt to level the playing field. the Yanks send millions to the small market teams and they pocket the dough. That’s not NY’s fault.

  83. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 14th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

    I didn’t hear what that person above Ed said. Weird I wish he could speak up so atleast we’d understand what he said.

    OK so at the risk of sounding incredibly white.

    Like OMG guys did you hear the news, not only are Tony and Jessi still together (open mouth, wide eye + smile) but there’s even talks that Jessi is telling Tony that not only does she think that Tony can so lead the Cowboys into the playoffs, and not only that she wants a wedding, but she wants a little Homo *coughs* Romo. :D Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !

    http://www.nationalledger.com/.....4152.shtml

  84. Alexander December 14th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

    Phil
    December 14th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
    There’s a rumor floating around that the Yanks have offered Manny 3/65.
    If true, let’s hope Sox fan Lupica’s head explodes.

    Where did you read that rumor??

  85. Bob December 14th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    The restaurant analogy does not work, as all the restaurants are not part of a league
    :)

  86. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    I learned a long time ago to ignore comments about the yankees and spending money.

    yes, they spend a lot of money, but as we’ve learned, this guarantees nothing, and over the past 8 seasons the franchise has dumped a lot of money into the pockets of lower market teams via collective bargaining and the luxury tax.

    I hope they keep their payroll below 2008′s.

  87. Jeff NJ December 14th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    I think if the Yankees trade for Cameron, they should sign Tex, trade Nady and forget Andy. That way Swisher becomes the everyday right fielder. FOr 2020, Gardner takes over in LF and A Jax in CF.

  88. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    We’re not going to sign Manny Ramirez people. let it go, just as you have hopefully let Teixeira go as a possibility.

  89. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 14th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    brandon,

    which comment above mines?

  90. Tony C December 14th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    The issue of the Yanks spending alot of $$ is so old and tired. Of the 8 world series victors since 2000 (Sox twice) the average payroll rank is 10th. I guess you just can’t buy a championship like all the whiners lead us to believe. Does money give a team a better chance to win? Absolutely, but it guarantees nothing. The Sox spend more than 28 of the 30 teams and the media and fans still think they’re the the lovable underdogs. HELLO. MCFLY.

  91. Phil December 14th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

    read it on the internet.

  92. i am the walrus December 14th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

    Through the years it seems that the Yankees either go for pitching or offense. The last 8 years they were lacking the dominating pitcher. Now they are looking a bit weaker on the offense side while the pitching looks to be better.

    Sooner or later the Yankee FO will realize that it is balance that wins championships. The Red Sox won those recent WS because they had pitching and offense. Both is what is needed to win.

    The Yankees really could use a good batting addition.

    BTW- Bob’s post earlier moaning about salary caps… must be a Twins fan. :roll:

  93. able 21 December 14th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    Sign Texiera ! Sign Manny !

    Pass that Peking Duck from the revenue sharing restaurant please. Delicious

  94. rick December 14th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    Does Hank Steinbrenner really want to sign Manny?

  95. i am the walrus December 14th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    “FOr 2020, Gardner takes over in LF and A Jax in CF.”

    Wow, talk about planning ahead. 2020 is a LONG time away.

  96. Vrsce December 14th, 2008 at 6:19 pm

    Mike Lupica is a very talented writer who has become a bitter and twisted commentator.

    Recently he has been writing political columns; they are also crammed with his poisonous attitudes. a classic case of “Little Man’s Disease”, mad at the world because he is a shrimp, always lashing out and trying to prove how big he is by bitter attacks, he rarely has a positive point of view. When he does his talent shines through.

  97. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 6:19 pm

    I want to go to the restaurant that the gritty innings eaters frequents; I heard that the wait staff just voted him a full dessert share.

  98. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 14th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

    “Does Hank Steinbrenner really want to sign Manny?”

    It really doesn’t matter what he wants. He doesn’t control the $$$ that’s Hal :)

  99. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    Lupica’s just bitter because of this:

    http://deadspin.com/5026432/it.....n-the-list

  100. jerome December 14th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    Well put, Pete.
    I’m sick of the ‘yankee envy’ among rival markets and journalists.

    Finally someone actually published an opinion about it.

  101. rick December 14th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    cameron and andy are a waste of 20 million dollars……take aceves or hughes and spend that money on a hitter.

  102. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    Hank wanted Manny but now he’s just thinking about going to a restaurant.

  103. Alexander December 14th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    Phil
    December 14th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
    read it on the internet.

    Yeah i figured that, but i mean which site. I have checked most and have not read about any deal offered to manny.

  104. able 21 December 14th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    Hank may give Manny a chimichanga filled with guacomoney

  105. NongEyeWayneTolleson December 14th, 2008 at 6:30 pm

    As much as I disagree with the signing of Burnett, Peter is absolutely right.

  106. harwood December 14th, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    Damon
    Jeter
    Arod
    Manny
    Matsui
    Posada
    Cameron
    Cano
    Swisher

    What if we just stuck Manny in left for 1 year and DH the rest of the contract and kept Matsui and Nady. It would be a disastrous outfield but we could have Nady off the bench along with Gardner. The rotation from heaven + murderers row back + Swisher with pretty good 1b defense adding some infield skills over last year.

  107. PAT M December 14th, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    Just finished playing in the Annual Toys for Tots golf tourney…..The organizers always hook a local ballplayer in the foursome….This year I got to play with former Angel Brian Downing…..He says that Posada should bounce back alright, but he may have an issue hitting from the left side….Also said that if the Bombers were to pick up Manny and if the club has reasonable health, they may win 110 games…He also said he wouldn’t be surprised if the Manny, A-Rod tantum makes a run at the 100 home run mark…..

  108. yankeefan91 (sign manny) December 14th, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    harwood thats the lineup that i wanttttttt im wishing we add that big bat of ramirez benind arod

  109. Phil December 14th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    it’s the site that you’re not allowed to name here.

  110. randy l December 14th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    nick in sf-
    i would think your favorite restaurant would be one that serves crow .

  111. RayVTNC December 14th, 2008 at 6:38 pm

    The reason I said Ortiz was on steroids is that he admitted to drinking drinks provided in DR while he was training in the off-seasons and he didn’t know what was in them. He went from a normal looking guy at Minn to a giant at Boston. Ortiz also said last year he would no longer drink those drinks that were provided to him. (I wonder what they were!)

  112. TJ December 14th, 2008 at 6:39 pm

    Which former Tee-ball player do you think bounced off more lockers in High School….Lupica or Dead Dog Russo!

  113. upstate jeff December 14th, 2008 at 6:39 pm

    Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)…”Don’t trade Robi !”
    December 14th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
    I didn’t hear what that person above Ed said. Weird I wish he could speak up so atleast we’d understand what he said.

    OK so at the risk of sounding incredibly white.

    Like OMG guys did you hear the news, not only are Tony and Jessi still together (open mouth, wide eye + smile) but there’s even talks that Jessi is telling Tony that not only does she think that Tony can so lead the Cowboys into the playoffs, and not only that she wants a wedding, but she wants a little Homo coughs Romo. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !

    I’m calling racism…

  114. randy l December 14th, 2008 at 6:39 pm

    “The organizers always hook a local ballplayer in the foursome”.
    pat m-
    hook is a bad word for golfers any way you slice it.

  115. able 21 December 14th, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    RayVTNC

    It was just juice

  116. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    Interesting, randy l. I’m not sure what you’re referring to, but it’s good to have you back commenting on the blog.

  117. TJ December 14th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

    RayVTNC
    They’re called Dominican milkshakes…..and Big Poopi had quite a few as you noted.
    You can get anything in the DR.
    Think tendon injuries….remember Nomar!

  118. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

    Neither Simms nor Nantz has pointed out, yet, that the Giants beat both of these teams.

  119. Ty December 14th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

    The Yankees plan is and has been crystal clear from the start.

    1. Improve pitching via FA to the point where our prospects can be seasoned in AAA, then slowly intergrated into the starting rotation over this year and next.

    2. Improve the defense at 1B and CF thereby enhancing the acquired pitching and lessening the need for more offense.

    3. Field a league average player at every position.

    With the addition of Pettitte and Cameron they would have met their goals.

    Not acquiring Pettitte or another suitable starter compromises their offseasons goal and increases the likelyhood of having to once again rush up their prospects. The key to young players panning out is to put them in the best situation by which to succeed. Compromising pitching just to get a 1B/DH does not give our young pitchers the best chance to succeed. Believe it or not, the Sox and Rays would like nothing better than for the Yankees to leave the bottom half of their rotation uncertain just to improve their offense.

  120. ANSKY December 14th, 2008 at 6:46 pm

    BD (previous thread) Those were purely arbitrary numbers picked out of the sky. The point was more about people using complex mathematical formulas & statistics in general to quantify X or Y number of games won or lost by this player or that, while not putting the significance of the Manny antics into perspective. To me, baseball’s not about a spreadsheet of formulas.

  121. randy l December 14th, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    nick in sf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_crow

    i should have said “humble pie”. just having some fun with your allegiance to the cashman doctrine of the past few years.

    on the other hand , he has bounced back rather nicely with sabathia and burnett. as soon as he signs manny , i’ll be really happy.

  122. j2 December 14th, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    Pat, I love hearing stuff like that. Thanks!

  123. Celerino Sanchez December 14th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    “This year I got to play with former Angel Brian Downing…..He says that Posada should bounce back alright, but he may have an issue hitting from the left side….”

    Downing extended his career by moving from behind the plate to being a DH/OF the last half of his long career. Too bad the Yankees didn’t have anywhere to move him or Posada could be a productive hitter for much longer.

  124. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    What allegiance to the Cashman doctrine?

  125. PAT M December 14th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

    As I said earlier this morning,,,good to have you Randy I…..I do play left to right, not by choice just an old baseball swing…..One other thing that Brain said…That when Dave Henderson hit that slider off of Donnie Moore ( who was a nice guy ) in Oct. 86, he knew the series was over even with a 3-2 series lead…..Remembers it as if it were yesterday……

  126. GreenBeret7 December 14th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

    PAT M
    December 14th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
    Just finished playing in the Annual Toys for Tots golf tourney…..The organizers always hook a local ballplayer in the foursome….This year I got to play with former Angel Brian Downing…..He says that Posada should bounce back alright, but he may have an issue hitting from the left side….Also said that if the Bombers were to pick up Manny and if the club has reasonable health, they may win 110 games…He also said he wouldn’t be surprised if the Manny, A-Rod tantum makes a run at the 100 home run mark…..

    ————————————————————

    PAT M: Brian Downing….now, that’s a name from the past. Does he have a conventional stance on the course, or is it as wide open as his batting stance.

  127. S.A.- CC you soon Mr. Sabathia December 14th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

    Lupica sucks.
    He’s on my “Would love to punch in the face” list.

  128. myrtlebeachfan December 14th, 2008 at 7:12 pm

    I think the player draft system and luxury tax system give an nearly equal advantage to all teams. Tampa Bay was a great team last season with a ridiculously low payroll, while the Yankees were mediocre with by far the highest.

    This game is not unbalanced. There are teams that “get it” when it comes to player development and drafting (Tampa, A’s, Twins) and those that don’t (Pittsburgh,Expos, Giants). There are others with money who do a balancing act and come out good (NY, Bos, Phil).

    Money, as evidenced by the last many WS champions, is not necessarily an indicator of success. The more money the Yankees have spent since the 90s, the more they seemed to fail (see the post-2001 years).

    All the while, the Yankees are paying other teams to develop their talent. Hmm. Seems like the Yanks may even be disadvantaged with their spending sprees and not the other way around.

  129. Al from BK( Welcome to the Yankees CC!) December 14th, 2008 at 7:12 pm

    Lupica is the biggest tool. First story on CC is “Hes not Santana” how can they pay this guy to write stories on the Yankees when he NEVER has anything decent or positive to say.

  130. ANSKY December 14th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

    Not to bring politics into the mix, but did anyone see clip of the protester in Iraq throw his shoes at George Bush? I’ve got to watch The Daily Show & Colbert Report tonight …. that’s good material for them.

    Maybe from this Bush heckler, someone could be inspired if ever Mike Lupica speaks at a press conference.

  131. Joe from Long Island December 14th, 2008 at 7:21 pm

    Is anyone following the Bernard Madoff scandal? Specifically, how this might affect the Mets? I’m not a Mets fan, but this is interesting.

    This story has been covered extensively in the NYTimes, and just now on NBC News. Fred Wilpon was a major investor with Madoff, and looks to have lost a lot of money. The Times’ story today referred to signficant losses. NBC gave a figure of $300M. I don’t know how much Fred and his family is worth, but $300M seems like a lot. In addition, he runs an investment company that also sent a lot of money to Madoff; it is unknown at this time how much of Fred’s investors’ money is lost. So Fred may be on the hook for a lot more than the 300.

    While the Mets’, per se, did not lose money in this, you have to wonder if Fred will be tighter with the Mets’ budget. According to the Times’ story today, Bud Selig and officials from the MLB office have already called Fred to see if he was still solvent.

    Not that I am a Mets’ fan (thank goodness, I’m not), but I wouldn’t be surprised if between the economy’s effects on MLB and Fred Wilpon’s personal money problems that the Mets’ budget suddenly gets a lot tighter. I also would not be terribly surprised if the Mets frandchise comes on the market in the next half year.

  132. S.A.- CC you soon Mr. Sabathia December 14th, 2008 at 7:21 pm

    Was that a TD for the Steelers? I didn’t think so.

  133. Joe from Long Island December 14th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    myrtlebeach – you make some good points, but I have to disagree about one thing. The Yankees’ record last season was not mediocre; they had the 6th best record in baseball. They’re problems were magnified by playing the toughest division in baseball.

    We need to do better, but we were not mediocre.

  134. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

    Oh it was a TD! Put it on the boooooaaaaaaaard!

  135. randy l December 14th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

    ” What allegiance to the Cashman doctrine?”
    nick in sf-
    good answer. i wouldn’t admit to that either. at least until it finally works.

    pat m-
    to get my baseball swing out of my golf swing, i play golf righty instead of lefty. there’s nothing wrong with a left to right ball flight. nicklaus made a nice career out of it.

  136. jennifer December 14th, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    good for the Jets. As a jet fan you always want all options open. :lol:

  137. eric in queens December 14th, 2008 at 7:30 pm

    I can’t stand Mike Lupica. What’s up with all those sentence fragments? It’s like he can’t properly formulate a sentence.

  138. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    Al,

    He’s probably paid to be the devil’s advocate…these guys have to make money somehow, can’t all right the same thing.

    He’s dumpy and not a wise baseball man. Anyone who knows baseball knows that the Yankees needed Sabathia more than anyone else.

  139. randy l December 14th, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    “Is anyone following the Bernard Madoff scandal? Specifically, how this might affect the Mets”
    joe from long island-

    i don’t know much, but i think it’s pretty interesting. a friend of mine who was a partner in a two billion hedge fund told me a few months ago that redemptions were going to be a big problem for the hedge funds industry. the madoff collapse may trigger more funds being challenged by redemptions.

    at some point baseball has to be impacted in a big way by the financial crisis, but you wouldn’t know it by the money being thrown around for the top free agents.

  140. nud December 14th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

    To me it is simple……It is like the Beltran situation a few years back…..If Tex will take a reasonable contract to come here…..8 for 160….then the Yanks should pull the trigger…..sign Andy for 10 mil and go with Melky/Gardner in CF for now…….Yanks should have never passed on Beltran and it still hurts them today. Wat is the difference if the payroll is 200 mil or 215…when u are up that high it becomes rididculous to knitpick…

    Sign Tex up!

  141. PAT M December 14th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

    I’m impressd Randy I….I didn’t start playing until well after my ball playing days were over….My Father tried to get me to play when I was a kid ….He was a member at Westchester CC, but I rather caddy, and then sleigh ride there during the winter months….Now I’m a self made 15 Handicap…I did get to a 12 some years ago…By far the most humbling game I’ve ever played…..GB7, Brian has a rather convential stance, hit’s it a ton off the tee….Still in great shape…..By far my favorite to play with was Mike Piazza after his rookie season….We were hammered by the 16th green…..

  142. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 7:41 pm

    I hope the Yanks will offer Tex a ‘reasonable’ contract just to help make sure that the winning contract is less reasonable, but there are lots of suitors already. Too bad Tex and CC aren’t BFF’s. But they could be!

  143. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 14th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

    “I hope the Yanks will offer Tex a ‘reasonable’ contract ”

    Yep, it he wants to patrol the position where his idol once patrol, he will take that “reasonable” contract.

  144. Bret the Hitman December 14th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

    Nick in SF,

    Tex will score an unreasonable amount of money. You’re right about that.

  145. Joe December 14th, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    You forgot the main point of criticism…CC is 300 lbs, and has thrown 500 innings in the last 2 years…Johan is an athletic kind of guy, with basically no risk of injury, CC is a guaranteed injury at some point during this deal…and don’t even get me started on Burnett, the only other times he’s thrown 200 innings in a season, he’s had a major injury the next season…don’t be surprised if both CC and Burnett are on the DL by June

  146. timo December 14th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    [quote]
    Ty
    December 14th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
    Matsui had a .417OBP/.452 Slug/.330BA before the 2008 AS break. Due to Melky craping the bed offensively, Girardi was forced to play Matsui in LF and Damon in CF. Matsui’s non-surgically repaired knee gave out on him.
    [quote]

    Not really what happened. Melky got off to a good start in April and had not lost his every day job by the time Matsui went on the DL in June. Matsui only started 22 games in the OF the entire year, mostly when Damon got a day of.

    Also, when Matsui departed on June 22, he had 7 HRs and 34 RBIs in 251 ABs. Expecting him to be the main player in the middle of the lineup in ’09 (along with Arod) is a big stretch and unlikely to turn out well.

  147. myrtlebeachfan December 14th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    Interesting idea here that Hughes will post a 3.35 ERA via Bill James.
    http://www.rotoauthority.com/2.....12;st.html

    Can someone, say CB or SJ, explain why this is believed to be possible? I’m one that believes that his stats in 2008 should be disregarded, as he was injured, but that in 2007 he showed that kind of ability. He has one of the most consistent deliveries in baseball and he now sports a cutter that is around 91-92mph.

  148. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    offer a 7 year 140 deal w/ an opt-out after 4.

  149. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    Bret/Nick,

    Which is exactly why we shouldn’t sign him. We’ve addressed other more pressing needs.

    Its nice to hope that the Yankees win the World Series in 2009, but I’m thinking 2010 is more realistic.

  150. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

    Joe,

    CC is far more athletic than you give him credit for. Just because he is a big guy doesn’t mean he isn’t athletic. As athletic as Santana? Maybe not, but still, he is athletic.

  151. nud December 14th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

    just give him 160-180 and he will come….talk of a budget is insulting when they already have spent this much…..just finish off the job….The Yankee lineup needs this type of hitter. This is a need, not a luxury.

  152. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

    Fangraphs provides projections for every yankee too. Just click a player.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.....38;month=0

  153. GreenBeret7 December 14th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    PAT M
    December 14th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
    I’m impressd Randy I….I didn’t start playing until well after my ball playing days were over….My Father tried to get me to play when I was a kid ….He was a member at Westchester CC, but I rather caddy, and then sleigh ride there during the winter months….Now I’m a self made 15 Handicap…I did get to a 12 some years ago…By far the most humbling game I’ve ever played…..GB7, Brian has a rather convential stance, hit’s it a ton off the tee….Still in great shape…..By far my favorite to play with was Mike Piazza after his rookie season….We were hammered by the 16th green…..

    ————————————————————

    Sounds like great fun, Pat. I remember when DEowning first came up with the White Sox as an outfielder and catcher…God, he was brutal, both on offense and defense. I think that he was about the first player to really rebuild himself in the weightroom. That broken ankle was really a blessing for him. The weightroom work and that bizarre stance worked for him. I doubt any hitting coach would ever teach it.

  154. joeman December 14th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    three moves need to be made…sign another SP,get a utility player (of/infielder) ..move joba to the pen (8th inning guy)groom him for future closer

  155. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    myrtlebeachfan,

    Hughes is still at least 7 months away from being major league ready and even then, he fits better into our bullpen.

    He needs more than a cutter, 4 seamer, and curve. he needs to throw a changeup into his repertoire and once he gets that down, pencil him in for the 5th spot in the rotation…in 2010.

  156. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 7:58 pm

    nud,

    A lot of people would argue that Tex isn’t a need. If he is, he is far too expensive of a need.

  157. BH December 14th, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    Pete, your argument is only valid if Sabathia = Santana. Barring some extreme deviations from the norm, he isn’t, and that’s before you even look at whether or not he can handle NY, which remains to be seen.

  158. myrtlebeachfan December 14th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

    The Mad Prince in Pinstripes

    I think there is something about Hughes that we’re missing – Bill James rarely gets statistical analysis wrong and he’s one of the best at predicting statistics for the next season.

    Last year he was spot on with the regression of Josh Beckett – it was almost shocking how close he was on the estimates. If he thinks Hughes will post a 3.35 ERA and win 8 or so games in 20 starts, he is basing it on something concrete.

    My guess is that he is monitoring his play in other baseball leagues and also relying on him developing a fourth pitch in the first half of next season.

    I’m of the opinion that we sign a low end 4th starter that can give us innings so that we can slot Hughes in by the All Star Break. There is only so much work you can do dominating in the minor leagues before it’s time to show your stuff on the MLB level.

  159. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    BH,

    He can handle New York. that gets overhyped.

    he may have been overpaid if you want to merely compare salaries and credentials re: Santana, but the point Pete is making is that they signed Sabathia only for $$$, not prospects too.

  160. Phil December 14th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    BH

    Sabathia has been better then Santana for the last two years and remains younger.

  161. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 8:06 pm

    myrtlebeachfan,

    “My guess is that he is monitoring his play in other baseball leagues and also relying on him developing a fourth pitch in the first half of next season.

    I’m of the opinion that we sign a low end 4th starter that can give us innings so that we can slot Hughes in by the All Star Break. There is only so much work you can do dominating in the minor leagues before it’s time to show your stuff on the MLB level.”

    FINALLY I FIND SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH ME!!!!

  162. Al from BK( Welcome to the Yankees CC!) December 14th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    Did I miss something are we back in the running for Tex?

  163. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    myrtlebeach,

    I think the one difference in opinion here is that I’d sign Pettitte to fill out the rotation for all of 2009 and allow Hughes to do spot starts (Joba) and long relief, then jump into the rotation full time in 2010.

  164. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 14th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

    Al,

    I do not believe so…just more folks on here lobbying for him, that’s all.

  165. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 14th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

    Al,

    supposely yes.

  166. Joe December 14th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    Phil, CC was not better than Johan last year. And I agree that we don’t know if CC can handle NY. He is a calm, California guy who clearly didn’t want to be here ($61 mil over the next bid can change that). He has a 7.92 career playoff ERA. I don’t know if he can handle NY.

  167. nud December 14th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    Too Expensive??? When you are in the 200 million dollar range you have no payroll. You can go to the jersey shore for less money than it costs to go to a Yankee game. Yanks have more salary relief coming next year and need a strong hitter who is in his prime. Cameron and Swisher may see a lot of pitches but they will swing and miss a lot more

  168. Guiseppe Franco December 14th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    Give Sabathia more chances to start in the postseason and he’ll be fine. The same can be said for Wang.

    There was a time when Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens were both considered postseason chokers, too.

    Not to mention Andy Pettitte has had more than his share of postseason stinkers – but he’s primarily remember for his great performances.

    All that postseason flak they get is a bunch of hogwash by people who focus on small samples.

    Get to the postseason again and they’ll be fine.

  169. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 8:17 pm

    Al, you didn’t miss anything and I’m not lobbying for Tex for what he’s going to get, just for less. You know, a Christmas miracle.

  170. myrtlebeachfan December 14th, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    Mad Prince,

    I can agree with that strategy of signing Pettitte and Hughes being slotted in to spot start for Joba, but I’d like to see him as a regular in the rotation during 2009. It is very possible that AJ or Wang could re-injure themselves and Hughes may actually be needed in the rotation.

    Hughes showed in 2007 that he can pitch against ML hitting. He showed it in the playoffs, too. He’s got the stuff and he’s got the chatzpuh. Once he’s got that fourth pitch, he’s a more complete starter and he will be able to slot in for good.

  171. Phil December 14th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

    Joe,

    you’re wrong. He was better than Santana last year.

  172. Phil December 14th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

    the Yanks will manage CC’s innings better than Cleveland or Milwaukee did.

  173. Al from BK( Welcome to the Yankees CC!) December 14th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

    I wonder would Tex take 7 years 150 to play for the Yanks in a perfect situation? He could be the Don Mattingly(his hero) of this generation.

  174. russomcbo78 December 14th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

    peter, any news about pudge and molina?
    whos coming back?

  175. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    CC was a better pitcher in 2007 and 2008 both. That’s why he’s the back-to-back Warren Spahn Award winner. :)

  176. AROD fan December 14th, 2008 at 8:25 pm

    Cash
    you got us the wrong gift!
    the gift you got is for LOSERS! You were supposed to get us the one for WINNERS!
    Do a better job next time!

  177. Mitchell December 14th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    Check this out!
    http://www.rotoauthority.com/2.....12;st.html

  178. GreenBeret7 December 14th, 2008 at 8:28 pm

    Al from BK( Welcome to the Yankees CC!)
    December 14th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
    I wonder would Tex take 7 years 150 to play for the Yanks in a perfect situation? He could be the Don Mattingly(his hero) of this generation.

    ————————————————————

    I seriously doubt that Scott Boras is interested in getting 10% of Teixeira’s nostagia.

  179. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 8:28 pm

    “any news about pudge and molina?
    whos coming back?”

    Molina’s signed for next year. Pudge is a FA.

  180. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    What if you offered Teixeira an opt out after 4 years. Boras clients love opt outs. Then Montero can take over…

  181. CSM December 14th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    I find it humorous that Lupica et al. have been savaging Cashman and the Yankees – the thing is, no one is forcing or even asking these guys to come to the field and spend their money. The Yankees are able to sign Sabathia because they know we the fans will want to see the big guy pitch. It’s about putting a team worth watching on the field. I’m willing to pay the small fortune to see a game if it means I might get to see CC toss a complete game, or see Burnett strike out 15 guys. Plus. adding two big free agent pitchers will make it all the easier for Joba, Phil Hughes, Aceves etc. to make it. No longer will Hughes have to win 15 games as a 21 year old because the rest of the rotation is broken down. They kids can progress naturally with less pressure and that will lead to the real youth movement.

  182. PAT M December 14th, 2008 at 8:31 pm

    Suddenly Phil Hughes is getting some love here….Just a few weeks ago there was a one way ticket awaiting him at the Port Of Authority Bus Station’s will call…..

  183. Jeff NJ December 14th, 2008 at 8:33 pm

    Montero will play catcher. He is much more valuable there if he can be at least average defensively.

  184. GreenBeret7 December 14th, 2008 at 8:34 pm

    Tom
    December 14th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
    What if you offered Teixeira an opt out after 4 years. Boras clients love opt outs. Then Montero can take over…

    ————————————————————

    People are going to be in for a bit of a surprise when Montero is catching and Romine is in a corner outfield spot or possibly third base.

  185. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 8:41 pm

    I know. I expect Montero to at least start out as a catcher on the Yankees.

  186. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 8:45 pm

    Did T.O. and Whitten make a deal to *both* drop passes?

  187. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

    “He is much more valuable there if he can be at least average defensively.”

    If Montero turns into the offensive force he’s projected to be, wouldn’t he be more valuable playing 160 games, instead of the 140 (max) he’d play at catcher?

    The Yankees have plenty of depth at catcher-Kyle Higashioka, Austin Romaine, Francisco Cervelli-If Montero can mash, he’ll be the first baseman

  188. Sean M December 14th, 2008 at 8:54 pm

    What prospects did the Mets give up, Mulvey did nothing in the Minors last year, Humber had Tommy John surgery a couple years ago, Guerra was supposed to be the big pitching prospect and he had an ERA close to 5 in single A and Carlos Gomez was the only player that reached the MLB and he batted around .260. Carloz Gomez for Johan Santana seems like a good trade to me. Yanks payed million’s more for Sabathia eventhough Santana is by far a better pitcher.

  189. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 8:58 pm

    Everyone is entitled to his own optinion, but not to his own facts.

  190. jennifer December 14th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

    Jose is signed through next year.

  191. JUSTIN December 14th, 2008 at 9:04 pm

    CASH SHOULD SIGN TEXX ….TRADE NADY OR EVEN SWISHER ..

    LINE UPP
    DAMON
    JETER
    TEX
    AROD
    MATSUI
    POSADA
    SWISHER OR NADY
    CANO
    CENTER FIELDER ???

    ROTATION
    CC
    WANG
    AJ
    JOBA
    ANY BUM THAT HAS A GOOD SPRING TRAINING

    IF THEY WANT HAVE A 200 MILLION AGAIN PAY ROLL AGAIN BRING BACK MR. HGH HIM SELF {ANDY}

    BENCH STILL WORRIES ME

  192. bottom line December 14th, 2008 at 9:04 pm

    Mike Lupica is a nasty guy who can not stoop to low to take a crack at the Yankees. Pete is absolutely right– Lupica (and others) will find a way to blast them no matter what? There’ a long histroy of Yankee-hating among NY newspaper writers. Those with long memories will recall Leonard Schechter, for example.

    As for Lupica, what else would you expect from a guy who began his career as a writer for Boston Magazine?

    THe problem is he never reveals where his heart lies. But cloaks his lyalties in all sorts of bogus transparently false argunets. The guy — quite simply — is a teerible journalist.

  193. YankeeRay December 14th, 2008 at 9:05 pm

    Al from BK( Welcome to the Yankees CC!)
    December 14th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
    I wonder would Tex take 7 years 150 to play for the Yanks in a perfect situation? He could be the Don Mattingly(his hero) of this generation.

    russomcbo78

    —-

    Whatever the amount is the selling point has to be that he will be like a Mattingly and have his number retired in monument park and go into the HOF as a Yankee.
    That and him being protected in our line up for a few years by Arod. In Boston Papi is on the way out as is Vlade in LA.
    If we can deal with the salary for 1 year it makes too much sense for him to come to NY over anywhere else.

  194. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXFds4hLo30

  195. Mike R December 14th, 2008 at 9:08 pm

    “He could be the Don Mattingly(his hero) of this generation.”

    Blasphemy! Teix will never be half the 1st baseman that Don Mattingly was! :)

    (Not to mention that Teix probably can’t grow facial hair.)

  196. YankeeRay December 14th, 2008 at 9:12 pm

    Mike R
    December 14th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
    “He could be the Don Mattingly(his hero) of this generation.”

    Blasphemy! Teix will never be half the 1st baseman that Don Mattingly was!

    (Not to mention that Teix probably can’t grow facial hair.)

    —-

    We need Tino to speak to him. Tex has been to every stadium but one. To seal the deal we need to invite him to tour the stadium and have Tino give him the low down. Don’t let him leave without signing.

  197. nud December 14th, 2008 at 9:23 pm

    If Tex isn’t the perfect fit then I don’t know who is…..

    Again this budget talk is disrespectful

  198. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 9:24 pm

    Who is being disrespected?

  199. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 9:27 pm

    The budget. it hates it when people call it fat.

  200. nud December 14th, 2008 at 9:31 pm

    The budget is a joke…..it is not real, just something to try and make the Yankees look like they have some sort of fiscal responsibility….Artificial it is….Hank please tell Cash to land us a bat ASAP…

  201. Marky Mark Talks to Mammals December 14th, 2008 at 9:43 pm

    LOL, Nick.

    I love how when the guy opens the paper in that commercial the light comes out, as if it is Marcellus’ suitcase in Pulp Fiction.

  202. Guiseppe Franco December 14th, 2008 at 9:43 pm

    nud,

    Maybe you missed the press conference but Hal controls the purse strings and makes those big decisions.

    Hank does not.

  203. Al from BK( Welcome to the Yankees CC!) December 14th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    I believe that Cash really wants the salary under 190 but at some point it loses purpose and if your going to go big you might as well go for broke and get Tex. Tex and A-Rod anchor the offense for the next 8-10 years.

  204. No December 14th, 2008 at 9:48 pm

    Burnett’s a bum.

  205. alvaro espinoza's hipster frames December 14th, 2008 at 9:52 pm

    guys, teix is way way too expensive… i’d much rather go after adam laroche in a year for a third the price.. honestly, though, i think you guys are gonna like swisher. i’ve always liked him.

  206. Guiseppe Franco December 14th, 2008 at 9:52 pm

    Here’s some trivia for you…..

    Which team scored more runs in ‘08 – Yanks or Rays?

    Answer: Yanks (789 to 774)

    Which team scored more runs – the ’07 D-Rays or ’08 Rays?

    Answer: ’07 D-Rays (782 to 774)

    But the D-Rays finished with the worst record in MLB in ’07 (66-96) and finished with the second best record in MLB in ’08 (97-65).

    How could this happen?

    Two words: Pitching and defense.

    This is not rocket science and continuing to pound the big bat drum with Teixeira or Manny completely ignores the winning formula of successful teams in recent years in addition to the Yankee dynasty.

    If the Yanks need a bat during the regular season, Cashman will swing a deal and find one. But enough about Teixeira and Manny because the Yanks did exactly what they need to do this offseason by overhauling the rotation.

    Right now, the Yanks are a far better team than at any time during the ’08 season.

  207. nud December 14th, 2008 at 9:52 pm

    If Hanks wants it done, it will be done. Hal is very flexible when it makes sense.

  208. 2008 Yankees December 14th, 2008 at 9:54 pm

    All things being equal, getting Teixeira is a no brainer over Manny. If Teixeira doesn’t want to play for the Yankees or the money isn’t there for Boras, then maybe get Manny for 2-3 years. But Teixeira is CERTAINLY the preference.

  209. Phil December 14th, 2008 at 9:54 pm

    There’s really no incentive for the Yanks to lower their budget. They need to keep things happening in the new stadium and that will send their revenues much higher.

  210. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 10:00 pm

    7 out of the 8 playoff teams (Cubs, Rays, Red Sox, Angels, Brewers, Phillies, Dodgers) were in the top ten in team ERA. The White Sox finished 11th.

    Only 4 finished in the top 10 in runs scored-Cubs, White Sox, Red Sox, Phillies.

  211. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 10:03 pm

    Guiseppe Franco makes very good sense, as always. Yet he still cannot explain what exactly it is that Procede does.

  212. JR Yankees December 14th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

    “It works, it really works!”

  213. alvaro espinoza's hipster frames December 14th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

    all i know is that i’m guiseppe franco!

  214. i am the walrus December 14th, 2008 at 10:16 pm

    Guiseppe Franco – the differential in runs scored in those cases you state are not that big. It doesn’t matter as much about how many runs you score in total as it does the difference between runs scored and runs allowed.

    The Rays lost the WS because their offense was suspect. They survived throughout the season and even the playoffs by getting timely hits. It killed them in the WS.

    While pitching is very important in the game, you need offense otherwise you end up like the Blue Jays. Lots of low scoring games, too many losses.

    The key to the post season and WS is to have balance. Upgraded starting pitching will go a decent ways, upgraded defense… we’ll see. Nady and Abreu in Right may be a wash defensively. Swishy at 1st is better than Giambi. Otherwise, its the same defensively. What has changed though is offense. With lower offense, it puts more pressure on the SP. Good offense can help put the pressure on the opposition’s SP.

    Balance is what the Yankees needed, and yet the balance isn’t there now. It moved from Offense to Pitching.

  215. Al from BK( Welcome to the Yankees CC!) December 14th, 2008 at 10:16 pm

    Tex wanting 10 years is nuts if he takes 7-8 years I’d consider ultimately many feel Tex is going to go to the highest bidder I just hope it isn’t the Sux.

  216. i am the walrus December 14th, 2008 at 10:18 pm

    “Only 4 finished in the top 10 in runs scored-Cubs, White Sox, Red Sox, Phillies.”

    And what team prevailed? The Phillies. They had enough SP AND Offense to get the job done. ^^This makes my point.

  217. Guiseppe Franco December 14th, 2008 at 10:19 pm

    If Hanks wants it done, it will be done. Hal is very flexible when it makes sense.

    ——————-

    Perhaps you missed last offseason when Hank was out in front on getting Johan Santana and it didn’t happen.

    He also made a big stink about Joba needing to be in the rotation in April but it didn’t happen until June as was planned all along.

    Hal doesn’t jump when Hank speaks. Hal just shakes his head and wishes his brother spent all his time running their father’s horse ranch(es) and restaurant(s).

  218. 86w183 December 14th, 2008 at 10:22 pm

    Through his age 28 season Mattingly had 164 HR and 717 RBI. At the same stage of his career Teixiera has 203 HR and 676 RBI.

    Was Mattingly better at his best? Sure. But to claim Teixiera is not an outstanding player is just dumb. Also I’d wager a large amount of money than Tex will top Donny Baseball’s 58 HR 382 RBI the rest of his career.

    Buster Olney’s piece was very intelligent and right on point. I’d love to ask Lupica what he thinks the Yankees should do? Keep the money and limit payroll? Not try to reward the fans who spend the most money in baseball? What is his definition of an acceptable payroll?

    I doubt he would answer any of those questions because he’s in the same category as blowhards like Bill O’Reilly.

  219. Alexander December 14th, 2008 at 10:25 pm

    I have checked everywhere. the Yankees have not offered manny anything.

  220. Chris December 14th, 2008 at 10:25 pm

    Nicely said. Nice to have a logical perspective.

  221. Tom December 14th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

    Yet, the Yankees only scored 10 less runs then the phullies did last year…

  222. vinny-b (bring back Petitte) December 14th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

    what do Mike Lupica and Buster Onley have in common?

    answer: nothing

    far as national writers out there, Onley and Timmy Kurk, basically the only ones i like.

  223. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 10:31 pm

    The runs Melky and Gardner scored didn’t count for as much.

  224. Rob NY -- 2009 The Road to Redemption December 14th, 2008 at 10:31 pm

    Hey CB thank you so much for that bornbybits web site. It’s pretty amazing to see each pitcher graphed out like that. Burnett’s release point and the movement on his curveball are unreal. You’re absolutely right, how has he not won more games? How crazy is it that i’ve been thinking that after 5 years his contract might be a bargain?

  225. Guiseppe Franco December 14th, 2008 at 10:33 pm

    And what team prevailed? The Phillies. They had enough SP AND Offense to get the job done. This makes my point.

    ———————–

    Which team had the best team ERA in the World Series – Rays or Phillies?

    Answer: Phillies (2.86 ERA to 4.50 ERA)

    How about the NLCS – Phillies or Dodgers?

    Answer: Phillies (3.89 ERA to 4.40 ERA)

    How about the NLDS – Phillies or Brewers?

    Answer: Phillies (2.31 ERA to 3.18 ERA)

    The Phillies may not have had the pedigree on paper that others teams had going into the postseason – but their pitching did outperform each opponent in all three series.

    That is not a coincidence. The Phillies didn’t simply outslug their opponents to win it all.

  226. Al from BK( CC and A.J. Welcome to the Bronx!) December 14th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    I just like that Cash is in on the Tex bidding at the bare minimum it drives the price up for the Sux.

  227. you gotta have faith (Aj for 5 years, NOOOOO) December 14th, 2008 at 10:38 pm

    im glad the giants offensive line decided to show up today………oh wait.

  228. CB December 14th, 2008 at 10:38 pm

    “While pitching is very important in the game, you need offense otherwise you end up like the Blue Jays. Lots of low scoring games, too many losses.”

    I’m really not sure why people keep bringing up the Blue Jays as a case example of what the 2009 yankees need to avoid.

    Steve Goldman keeps harping on the Blue Jays as the text book example of what to avoid perhaps that’s why?

    It’s sort of amazing to me.

    Every post that brings up the Blue Jays – all of Goldman’s references to the Jays – have to do with the same thing. It’s great to have pitching but you also need offense – you have to have balance because what matters is run differentials.

    Now this is true. But what no one seems to do – including Goldman – is to actually look at the Blue Jays run differential in 2008.

    Everyone who brings up the Jays seems to assume that because Toronto had a lousy offense their run differential was bad and that’s why they weren’t a good team.

    That’s just not true at all.

    Toronto had a bizarre season that just doesn’t make any sense from a run differential perspective.

    Toronto was #1 in the AL in runs allowed and #11 in runs scored.

    So did the lack of offense cause their run differential to be poor?

    No. Not at all. In fact the Jays had one of the best run differentials in all of baseball in 2008.

    The Jays scored 714 runs and allowed 610. That gave them a run differential of +104. That’s fantastic.

    In fact the Jays had the second best run differential in the AL and the 4th best run differential in baseball last year. They had a better run differential than Tampa Bay in fact.

    Based on their run differential the Jays should have won 93 games. 93 games.

    Instead they wound up underperforming their expected wins by 7 games as they only won 86. I’m not sure why this happened. But run differential does no explain it. Part of it must have been poor play in close games for whatever reason or just plain random chance. I haven’t seen any good explanations for this.

    If the 2009 yankees had a run differential of 104 runs I’d be very happy – given their pen I’d say they’d win 95 games+ with that kind of run differential.

  229. Johnny D. December 14th, 2008 at 10:41 pm

    Yankees eying Teixeira??

    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....8;c_id=nyy

  230. randyhater December 14th, 2008 at 10:41 pm

    Santana’s contract was signed in Feb. ’08, Sabathia’s will be signed in Dec. ’08. Anyone who doesn’t remember the difference should dig through their 401K statements.

    I’m glad we got him and I don’t mind spending Steinbrenner money, but how can you possibly congratulate a GM who shells out $61M more than the next highest bidder?

    This guy gets played every time he sits down at the table. And now he’s going to prove what a hard-ass he is by nickel and diming Pettitte, the one guy in our prospective rotation who’s actually stood up in the post season.

    Don’t ever forget that if we’d done the Santana deal, we’d have almost certainly made the playoffs and would have had as good a chance as anyone at a ring.

    Then we could have signed Sabathia and had both him and Santana while leaving Pavano Jr. on the scrap heap where he belongs.

  231. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 14th, 2008 at 10:43 pm

    “im glad the giants offensive line decided to show up today………oh wait.”

    Eli probably didn’t buy them that post Turkey Day meal, right now he’s playing “Duck,Duck,Goose” w/ Dallas’ pass rush

  232. Yankee Trader December 14th, 2008 at 10:44 pm

    86-
    “What is his definition of an acceptable payroll?”-

    IMO, it’s putting the best product out on the field for the fans, who are already paying top dollar, without showing a loss for that year.

    Although the Yankees get a break on revenue sharing- a way for some owners who receive it to line their pockets rather than be required to put a better product on the field, we will still be paying luxury tax at 40% for every dollar above 162 million.

  233. CB December 14th, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    Rob,

    Your welcome. Pitch F/X is the future of baseball. There’s no doubt. The work Josh Kalk has done with it is to be commended and I wish more people would take a look at it.

    It give you an unprecedented understanding of the game.

    The data on Burnett is really something. I don’t think I’ve seen a pitch like his curve ball.

    It truly might be the single best pitch any pitcher in the game throws. It’s at least in the conversation. CC’s slider is up there as well. Burnett’s curve ball is just unbelievable.

    It’s mystifying how he hasn’t won more given that talent.

    Hopefully he puts it together in pinstripes.

  234. vinny-b (bring back Petitte) December 14th, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    CB: where would you rank Santana’s change-up?

  235. you gotta have faith (Aj for 5 years, NOOOOO) December 14th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

    folks, get ready to light the torches and break out the pitchforks bc if AJ turns out to be Pavano Jr its not gonna be pretty sight around here or for c-money

  236. Bob(The Original) December 14th, 2008 at 11:02 pm

    I read less and less of the traditional newspaper coverage when it comes to baseball. Most of it is just garbage anymore

    I get my Yankee news from Pete here at the blog. Then with the internent there are just so many other places to read about baseball.

    Why anyone still wastes there time reading the drivel written by clowns like Lupica, King, etc., is beyond me.

  237. Al from BK( CC and A.J. Welcome to the Bronx!) December 14th, 2008 at 11:05 pm

    I think if we move Nady at 3.5 mil and don’t trade for Cameron we can sign Tex at 20 mil per. With 13.5 being saved with those 2 moves Tex would be affordable. If Andy tries to milk the Yanks for more than 10 mil we could save an additional 10 mil by letting Hughes or Aceves fill the 5th spot.

  238. vinny-b (bring back Petitte) December 14th, 2008 at 11:10 pm

    I do not expect NYY to sign Tex. Manny? A remote possibility.

    this said, if Nady is placed on the market, would expect the Mets to be very interested. Unless they decide to look at Abreu for RF.

  239. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 14th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

    the Cowboys better play like a team tonight. :evi:

  240. bru December 14th, 2008 at 11:15 pm

    Guiseppe Franco
    December 14th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
    Here’s some trivia for you…..

    Which team scored more runs in ‘08 – Yanks or Rays?

    Answer: Yanks (789 to 774)

    Which team scored more runs – the ’07 D-Rays or ’08 Rays?

    Answer: ’07 D-Rays (782 to 774)

    But the D-Rays finished with the worst record in MLB in ’07 (66-96) and finished with the second best record in MLB in ’08 (97-65).

    How could this happen?

    Two words: Pitching and defense.

    This is not rocket science and continuing to pound the big bat drum with Teixeira or Manny completely ignores the winning formula of successful teams in recent years in addition to the Yankee dynasty.

    If the Yanks need a bat during the regular season, Cashman will swing a deal and find one. But enough about Teixeira and Manny because the Yanks did exactly what they need to do this offseason by overhauling the rotation.

    Right now, the Yanks are a far better team than at any time during the ’08 season.

    ————————————————————

    excellant point.

    the nicest comparison i have seen yet on this blogg.

    we need our on paper pitchers to step up.

    we need to score 1 more run than the other team & win enough games to get in the playoffs.

    i personally don’t care how we do it.

    no more long term contracts.

    draft em & develope them so we won’t have an embarrasing payroll.

  241. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 14th, 2008 at 11:15 pm

    :evil: ***

  242. Ube December 14th, 2008 at 11:16 pm

    You are comparing apples and oranges on the CC and Johan contracts. Saying that “Johan’s option will vest, and then CC is only $4M more” is more than a bit misleading. For it to vest, Santana would have to nearly win a CY like last year and then actually win one – basically it won’t vest until he gives the Mets two fantastic seasons, maybe not even then. So at that point the Mets would have already gotten a ton of value out of him.

    Meanwhile, the opt out clause in CC’s contract is a huge bonus only for him. If he pitches badly, the Yanks are stuck for 7 years. If he pitches well, the Yanks will have to significantly up his salary/extend him in 3 years. Keep in mind, a similar clause in ARod’s deal caused massive headaches and cost the Yanks $5M more every year.

    I think Cashman is getting criticized for spending recklessly, not simply spending. He did outbid everyone by $50M+ for CC, which is pretty amazing.

    Finally, the Yanks will not lower their payroll this year – unless this is their team. Everyone – inlcuding Buster – is forgetting the internal pay raises; for example, Cano gets a $3M raise, Wang gets a $3M raise, and ARod gets a $5M raise. MLB Trade Rumors estimated the Yankee payroll at $150M before any signings (other than Marte) this year; throw in CC and AJ and the Yanks are already over $190M. That’s without Pettite or Cameron.

  243. Al from BK( CC and A.J. Welcome to the Bronx!) December 14th, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    I’m really running with this idea. We can trade Nady for some relief help and not trade for Cameron. Then we can pull the offer to Andy and save 10-12 million. A total of around 25 million being saved just from those moves. Heres the line-up and rotation:

    Damon-LF
    Jeter-SS
    Teixeira-1B
    A-Rod-3B
    Matsui-DH
    Posada-C
    Cano-2B
    Swisher-RF
    Gardner-CF
    (very balanced line-up)

    CC Sabathia
    Chien Ming Wang
    A.J. Burnett
    Joba Chamberlain
    Phil Hughes/Alfredo Aceves

  244. RalphieD (Cant wait for 09) December 14th, 2008 at 11:25 pm

    why does everyone continually say the yankees payed $61 more than any other team….the yankees initial offer 6/140 is probaly market value for CC…just because nobody ponied up and put the deal on the table doesnt mean the yankees “overpaid” or “spent recklessly”….if its take 7/161 to get him, it takes 7/161…you think CC’s agent was fine with the intiail offer and cashman just felt like being nice and giving him more money?…i highly doubt it

  245. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 11:28 pm

    Al, we don’t need relief help and Aceves/Hughes might be needed to help Joba and fill in for others.

  246. Guiseppe Franco December 14th, 2008 at 11:28 pm

    I’m really running with this idea. We can trade Nady for some relief help and not trade for Cameron. Then we can pull the offer to Andy and save 10-12 million. A total of around 25 million being saved just from those moves. Heres the line-up and rotation:

    —————

    Um, Al. They aren’t signing Teixeira. Just stop. It’s not happening. The sooner you get over that – the better off you’ll be.

    Besides, saving $25M for the 2009 season doesn’t take into account the extra $175M for a Mark Teixeria who would be signed through 2019.

  247. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 14th, 2008 at 11:30 pm

    the Cowboys better play like a team, and put their hate aside tonight!!!!!

  248. Al from BK( CC and A.J. Welcome to the Bronx!) December 14th, 2008 at 11:31 pm

    “I’m really running with this idea. We can trade Nady for some relief help and not trade for Cameron. Then we can pull the offer to Andy and save 10-12 million. A total of around 25 million being saved just from those moves. Heres the line-up and rotation:
    ———————-

    Um, Al. They aren’t signing Teixeira. Just stop. It’s not happening. The sooner you get over that – the better off you’ll be.

    Besides, saving $25M for the 2009 season doesn’t take into account the extra $175M for a Mark Teixeria who would be signed through 2019.”

    Its not really like I feel we NEED Tex but Boston having a young core of Youk, Tex, Pedroia really rubs me the wrong way.

  249. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 11:35 pm

    Ed, are you watching on tivo or are you just taunting the good New York fans here?

  250. yanksfanmc December 14th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    Besides needing some protection in the line-up for A-Rod, we really do need a hitter like Tex in our lineup.

    I have a great deal of respect for Matsui and how he has given it his all to come back from injury. But this is exactly the problem. He has had a rough time staying in the lineup on a consistent basis over the last 3 seasons. He also is a liability in the field at this point in his career.

    Remember our championship teams?

    We always had that middle of the order switch hitter. Chili Davis/Bernie Williams.

    Nady is not that guy. Good player at a cheap price.

    Matsui is basically unmovable.

  251. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 14th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    “the Cowboys better play like a team, and put their hate aside tonight!!!!!”

    You get that feeling the Giants didn’t care to win this game, I mean offensive line took a night off, IDK what Bradshaw has to do to get PT, Eli and the Dallas pass rush really was his offensive line tonight just not the good offensive line, look I understand press coverage, but not playing Bradshaw enough snaps, the O-line having a night off and for the past 2 weeks we have 1 problem not getting that 3rd down stopped. Other than that the defensive pass rush came to play, the DBs did thier best, I just think this team didn’t want to win tonight, it’s like thier thinking about the Carolina game.

  252. bru December 14th, 2008 at 11:38 pm

    they once they were out of the playoff race should of traded damon,then work on matsui. cano for kemp.payroll at 111 million.

    cc,pettitte & sheets.payroll 162 million,dunn for dh & furcal at 2nd.payroll at 187 million.all done.

  253. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 14th, 2008 at 11:38 pm

    Nick,

    yeah im watching it on tv, and I’m from NY anyways. lol

  254. Guiseppe Franco December 14th, 2008 at 11:39 pm

    Its not really like I feel we NEED Tex but Boston having a young core of Youk, Tex, Pedroia really rubs me the wrong way.

    —————–

    That’s exactly the WRONG strategy. Smart GMs don’t take on $200M and 10 years of commitment just to keep him away from their rival.

    Besides, the fate of the Red Sox season will be on the shoulders of Beckett, Matsuzaka, and Lester – not Youkilis, Pedroia, and Teixeira.

    Don’t be surprised at all if the Angels nab Teixeira anyways. I have a hard time believing Theo would be thrilled about signing someone for 9 0r 10 years unless he was well on his way to the Hall of Fame.

  255. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 14th, 2008 at 11:40 pm

    Brandon,

    agreed. the Giants still could have ended the Cowboys playoff contention tonight either way.

  256. MyName December 14th, 2008 at 11:42 pm

    Not sure if this has been done, but I took the stats CC put up on the 8th (his first start with his new club) Vs Santana’s in the same time frame (his closest start was the 9th). CC out pitched Johan in AAAA ball.

    JS age 29- 9-0 16G 3CG 2SHO 112.2IP 93H 26R 26ER 31BB 97SO 9HR 2.08ERA

    CC age 27- 11-2 17G 7CG 3SHO 130.2IP 106H 31R 24ER 25BB 128SO 6HR 1.65ERA

    Johan is a better pitcher IMO but the stats don’t lie, put them both in the NL and they are huge.. Well CC is huge no matter where he gets put but you get it. Not sure if this helps anyone, just thought I’d add it.

  257. vinny-b (bring back Petitte) December 14th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    why would anyone wish to commit 10/200 million for a player?? We already have 1. Don’t need 2.

    while we’re at it, maybe we can trade for Todd Helton as well. He has/had a similar contract.

  258. NO HYPE December 14th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    Tex at $18,19,20 mil a season will be a steal 5-7 years down the road if he stays somewhat healthy (a season missed at most). They gave the Big G a contract with similar per season payout and he isn’t HOF caliber.

  259. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    I didn’t say tv, I said TiVo.

    And I meant “good New York fans” to differenciate beetween those who root for the Yankees and Giants (or Jets for those with mild self-esteem issues) and those who have personal/emotional problems that lead them to root for teams like the Cowboys or Patriots.

  260. Guiseppe Franco December 14th, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    They gave the Big G a contract with similar per season payout and he isn’t HOF caliber.

    —————-

    Exactly.

    And if Cashman could go back in time – he’d rip up that contract offer to Giambi before he had a chance to sign it.

    I have no doubt he regrets that move.

  261. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 14th, 2008 at 11:51 pm

    Nick,

    lol, cheering for the Cowboys doesn’t make me emotional.

  262. Nick in SF December 14th, 2008 at 11:53 pm

    True, it’s somewhat mechanical.

  263. ham_fighters December 15th, 2008 at 12:01 am

    going into the offseason, cashman said they would go after starting pitching and the organizational plan was to work on run prevention. every move he has made has improved the pithing or defense. signing pettitte as the #4 and getting cameron for cf both further those goals.

    it is also widely believed that the yankees targeted a payroll around $190M. add pettitte and cameron and you’re right there.

    seems pretty clear to me that they get the last pitcher and then the cf situations settled and its down to signing a bench. they will bargain hunt for a good bat and in this market will find one or two who will help, but they wont be front-line guys.

    people who expect the yankees to sign teixeira, manny, furcal or any other front line big name guy are going to be dissappointed.

  264. Buddy Biancalana December 15th, 2008 at 12:22 am

    And if Cashman could go back in time – he’d rip up that contract offer to Giambi before he had a chance to sign it.

    I have no doubt he regrets that move.

    ————————————————————-

    Wasn’t this a Steinbrenner move, not Cash.

  265. RhapsodyInBlue December 15th, 2008 at 12:33 am

    Giants are a different team without Jacobs.

    They had better hope for a healthy Jacobs to advance in the play-offs.

  266. GreenBeret7 December 15th, 2008 at 12:50 am

    randyhater
    December 14th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
    Santana’s contract was signed in Feb. ‘08, Sabathia’s will be signed in Dec. ‘08. Anyone who doesn’t remember the difference should dig through their 401K statements.

    I’m glad we got him and I don’t mind spending Steinbrenner money, but how can you possibly congratulate a GM who shells out $61M more than the next highest bidder?

    This guy gets played every time he sits down at the table. And now he’s going to prove what a hard-ass he is by nickel and diming Pettitte, the one guy in our prospective rotation who’s actually stood up in the post season.

    Don’t ever forget that if we’d done the Santana deal, we’d have almost certainly made the playoffs and would have had as good a chance as anyone at a ring.

    Then we could have signed Sabathia and had both him and Santana while leaving Pavano Jr. on the scrap heap where he belongs.

    ————————————————————

    You’re not silly enough to believe that if NYY had traded for a 22 mil a year last year that they’d sign another one again this year, are you? Not likely.

  267. GreenBeret7 December 15th, 2008 at 12:55 am

    Not only that, but, Cashman stated the other day on YES Network that NYY was not going to trade that quality of package of talented minor leaguers plus 23 mil a year for Santana.

  268. Al from BK( CC and A.J. Welcome to the Bronx!) December 15th, 2008 at 1:20 am

    Not saying Tex to Boston would be devastating but Youk/Ortiz/Tex/Drew/Pedroia would be a top 3 MLB offense ours is going to be league avg at best.

  269. ShamWow December 15th, 2008 at 1:24 am

    I heard the Rangers would love to have someone take Michael Young’s contract off their hands. What about using Cano, since he is our only young marketable trade chip, to acquire a really good CF (Vernon Wells maybe) and then trying to “buy” Young by taking on his entire contract to play 2nd. I like Cano and really dont want to get rid of him but if you have a chance to upgrade the CF position by trading him, it would be great to try. I would only trade Cano if we could get Young though.

  270. Jake December 15th, 2008 at 1:25 am

    I am not a Yankee fan, but I am a fan of Brian Cashman. How can I not have respect for a fellow baldie. The man rocks. He has stood up and somehow managed to work with the delusional Steinbrenner family. I have to say that I thought his job was easy since the Yankees can spend alot of money to get talent. What I hadn’t realized until recently was how tough it was trying not to get bullied by the ignorant Steinbrenner family. I am certain that if they could have their way that they would sign every available free agent and overpay them by 20-30 million. Cashman is not stupid. He will pay alot of money to acquire talent, but he won’t overpay too much because he knows that the next guy he tries to sign might use the big money contract he just handed out as a bargaining stick! Dude! That’s tough! Send Cashman to the Giants and let the Yankee reject Brian Sabean try to run the Yankees. The measure of a good GM is how he would do running another team. I think Theo, Cashman and Billy Beane would all do well no matter what MLB team they were running besides their current ones. The same cannot be said of Sabean, Colletti, Minaya, Melvin, Daniels, Hendry, or Jocketty. It’s not age discrimination nor Ivy League discrimination. Some guys know how to win while some know how to whine!

  271. randyhater December 15th, 2008 at 1:30 am

    GB7,

    So Sabathia at $23M and Burnett (a 32 year old slacker) at $16.5M is great guns, but Sabathia at $23M and Santana at $22M is crazy talk?

    You really think if we had Santana in hand and wanted a front line pitcher, we would have gone after Burnett and left CC on the shelf? Even I don’t think Cash is that dopey.

  272. no.27 December 15th, 2008 at 1:34 am

    I know that it looks like the Yankees aren’t signing Teixeira, but that doesn’t mean its the right move. Cashman is going to regret giving spending on average players like Burnett, Swisher, Marte, and possibly Cameron instead of getting one of the best offensive and defensive first basemen in the league.

    You can’t compare signing Giambi to signing Teixeira. Giambi was 31 when the Yankees signed him, Teixeira would be 28. Giambi is terrible in the field, Teixeira has a gold glove. Giambi was suspected of taking PEDs, Teixeira is not. Giambi was hurt by extreme defensive shifts, Teixeira is a switch hitter that hits to all fields.

    People talk about the length of the contract that he’s demanding, but the truth is, the Yankees are going to have to give an offensive player a big contract soon. They won’t have a good enough lineup when Matsui, Damon, and Nady leave and Posada and Jeter are another year older. Is someone going to be available that is as good or better than Tex and will cost significantly less? Don’t think so.

    Not signing Tex means they are going to have to sign Holliday next year, and he’s not half the hitter that Tex is.

  273. mel December 15th, 2008 at 1:36 am

    If we signed Santana, CC would be playing on the left coast.

  274. Nick in SF December 15th, 2008 at 1:36 am

    Yes, crazy talk.

  275. mel December 15th, 2008 at 1:39 am

    And Nick in SF would be a Giants fan. :)

    I’m kind of hoping we sign Manny, to see how many fans will quit the Yankees. Pete, can you do a poll?

  276. Nick in SF December 15th, 2008 at 1:40 am

    I am already a New York Football Giants fan.

  277. mel December 15th, 2008 at 1:40 am

    (SF) Giants fan.

    Nick,

    If neither cost you prospects and cost the same, would you rather have Santana or CC?

  278. GreenBeret7 December 15th, 2008 at 1:41 am

    ShamWow
    December 15th, 2008 at 1:24 am
    I heard the Rangers would love to have someone take Michael Young’s contract off their hands. What about using Cano, since he is our only young marketable trade chip, to acquire a really good CF (Vernon Wells maybe) and then trying to “buy” Young by taking on his entire contract to play 2nd. I like Cano and really dont want to get rid of him but if you have a chance to upgrade the CF position by trading him, it would be great to try. I would only trade Cano if we could get Young though.

    ————————————————————

    Why would Toronto need another 2nd baseman? They already have one of the best young, inexpensive 2nd basemen in baseball…Aaron Hill?

  279. Alvin December 15th, 2008 at 1:41 am

    Stop with the comments that Cash outbidded himself by $61 million for Sabathia. It doesn’t hold water, and here’s why:

    6/140 is market value. Pitchers like Sabathia ALWAYS get market value. The reason it *seems* like Cashman outbidded himself was because he game out so strong that he scared everyone else away. How do you know the Yankees didn’t save money by doing this? It’s very likely that, had the Yanks come out with a 5/100 that they knew wouldn’t be enough, other teams would’ve started pursuing Sabathia. If that had happened, its probable that the final deal would’ve been even greater than 7/161 because teams would be bidding each other and pushing the price up.

    Knowing the market’s position, the econimic situation, and the current mentality of the other teams, the Yankee strategy going into this offseason was very smart.

  280. GreenBeret7 December 15th, 2008 at 1:44 am

    randyhater
    December 15th, 2008 at 1:30 am
    GB7,

    So Sabathia at $23M and Burnett (a 32 year old slacker) at $16.5M is great guns, but Sabathia at $23M and Santana at $22M is crazy talk?

    You really think if we had Santana in hand and wanted a front line pitcher, we would have gone after Burnett and left CC on the shelf? Even I don’t think Cash is that dopey.

    ————————————————————

    Read what Cashman said as to why they didn’t go after Santana? The was on YES TV this week, on Hot Stove.

  281. Nick in SF December 15th, 2008 at 1:46 am

    They’re both great pitchers, but I guess I would lean towards the younger one? I don’t know, I can’t be objective after having read so much convincing stuff about how Santana’s stuff is diminishing and CC is getting better. Plus, all the people who are still crying about the non-trade tend to ‘muddy the waters’ against Santana too.

  282. mel December 15th, 2008 at 1:47 am

    I’m pretty sure teams would start dropping out after the $140 tier was reached. Not every team has deep pockets like the Yankees. Not many teams as dumb as the Yankees. But that’s another discussion for another year.

    Truth was no one on the left coast wanted or could afford CC. He could’ve been had by any WC team for 6/$120M. For whatever reasons they kept their hands and wallets in their pockets.

  283. Alvin December 15th, 2008 at 1:48 am

    randyhater, 1:30AM:
    “So Sabathia at $23M and Burnett (a 32 year old slacker) at $16.5M is great guns, but Sabathia at $23M and Santana at $22M is crazy talk?

    You really think if we had Santana in hand and wanted a front line pitcher, we would have gone after Burnett and left CC on the shelf? Even I don’t think Cash is that dopey.”

    Even the Yankees have to draw a line somewhere, and I think CC+Sabathia is over that line.

    But even assuming they did what you wanted them to do, and got both pitchers. Does Sabathia + Santana sound better than Sabathia + Burnett + Hughes + Austin Jackson + nearly $60 million (the difference between Santana’s contract and Burnett’s contract)?

  284. mel December 15th, 2008 at 1:50 am

    My take? Santana was the better AL pitcher. CC “seems” to be getting better and Santana “seemed” to be in decline.

    In general, Santana is likelier to stay healthy.

    I’d probably say Santana, but I’ll be very interested to see how Santana does this season (stuff-wise because NL stats lie!)

  285. Al from BK( CC and A.J. Welcome to the Bronx!) December 15th, 2008 at 1:52 am

    I just love how that Yankee-hating curmudgeon Lupica had to write about how much better Johan is than CC. Correct me if I’m wrong but one of those pitchers carried his team into the playoffs, and I’m pretty sure it was Sabathia.

  286. mel December 15th, 2008 at 1:52 am

    If Burnett can stay healthy, he’ll be a great value. He and Wang can both reach the 18-win plateau.

  287. GreenBeret7 December 15th, 2008 at 1:55 am

    The only way the Yanks may have had Santana and Sabathia on the same team is if they had both been FAs. It was the cost of 4 minor leaguers that made having two 22-23 mil dollar pitchers on the team not possible.

  288. Alvin December 15th, 2008 at 1:56 am

    Another point about the Sabathia deal is the opt-out clause. I assume everybody agrees that CC will pitch very well for the next three years. If he does, he’ll opt out. And when he opts out, this is what the CC deal will have *actually* looked like (ignoring any weight unbalances in the contract, obviously):

    3 years / $69 mil

    3/69! If somebody told you today that we just got a 28-31 year old CC Sabathia for 3/69, what would you say?

    Of course, if you think CC will be bad for the next three years, then none of this happens because CC will stay. But then that 7th year on the contract will be the least of the team’s problems, so it wouldn’t even matter at that point.

  289. PAT M December 15th, 2008 at 1:56 am

    Mel do the math…CC + Hughes, Kennedy , Melky…Or Santana – Hughes, Kennedy, Melky…

  290. mel December 15th, 2008 at 1:57 am

    Al from BK,

    Tsk, tsk. What co-ace did Johan have? How many blown games by the bullpen in Johan starts? Santana pitched with torn ligaments in his last start. Went the distance or pretty near it.

  291. mel December 15th, 2008 at 1:58 am

    PAT M,

    Sorry, I was answering my own “all things being equal” hypothetical with neither costing prospects.

  292. Alvin December 15th, 2008 at 1:59 am

    Stories of a Santana decline are premature. He’s fine. His bullpen… not so much.

  293. PAT M December 15th, 2008 at 1:59 am

    CC won the Cy Young in the AL in 07…..He’ll be just as paralizing when he hits the Bronx….Can’t wait until he runs his fastball on to Youk’s hands….

  294. Nick in SF December 15th, 2008 at 2:00 am

    Maybe Santana ‘was’ the better AL pitcher in olden times, but that’s far in the past. Sabathia is the one who won the Cy Young in 2007, when they were both AL pitchers and Santana faded down the stretch.

    And I’m not sure if I mentioned this before, but Sabathia is also the current repeat recipient of the Warren Spahn Award, which is given to the game’s best left-handed pitcher. Santana used to win that too. Not so lately.

    As far as injury risk, Sabathia has no injury history, though some people cruelly speculate about his future because he’s a big man with a big, happy heart. Santana is more likely to hurt his arm because he’s shifty and pitches in a bitter atmosphere.

  295. Nick in SF December 15th, 2008 at 2:02 am

    “Santana pitched with torn ligaments…”

    Who was speculating about injury fears?

  296. GreenBeret7 December 15th, 2008 at 2:02 am

    I can only assume who the players involved in the many proposed Santana trade was by news reports, but Cashman wouldn’t not say who they were…only that the deal was for 4 players.

  297. mel December 15th, 2008 at 2:02 am

    Nick,

    Seriously, and I mean seriously, I hope that big, happy heart is a strong one. The heart is not designed to work so hard.

  298. mel December 15th, 2008 at 2:03 am

    Nick,

    He shredded his knee and had surgery. But you knew that right?

  299. Nick in SF December 15th, 2008 at 2:05 am

    Big injury risk pitching in that rat’s nest.

  300. Ralph C December 15th, 2008 at 2:08 am

    Peter,
    You’re 100% correct. The worst offender is that little bitter hack, Lupica. He will take every opportunity to rip the Tankees (see today), and praise the Wilpons and the Red Sox, even if he has to bend the truth or leave out facts.

  301. no.27 December 15th, 2008 at 2:09 am

    If the Mets didn’t trade for Santana they’d definitely compete with the Yankees for Sabathia. They could spend as much on him and could also offer him the chance to hit in the NL.

  302. mel December 15th, 2008 at 2:10 am

    Anyway, CC & Santana are both great pitchers and I hope that we beat Santana if and when we meet up.

  303. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 15th, 2008 at 2:12 am

    CC vs Johan, will be looking forward to that during the interleagues. :D

  304. Nick in SF December 15th, 2008 at 2:12 am

    Agreed, both great pitchers. I’m just glad we have the one who’s currently superior and ascending and they have the one who’s inferior and in decline!

  305. Nick in SF December 15th, 2008 at 2:15 am

    Ed, I’m looking forward to that too, especially if it ends with Brett Gardner hitting a walk-off single off of K-Rod.

  306. PAT M December 15th, 2008 at 2:17 am

    Johan is still a great pitcher, but the torch has been handed off…..Witness the Spann awards that Nick in SF has been allouding to ….A very special award….

  307. Nick in SF December 15th, 2008 at 2:19 am

    Santana will also go gray faster pitching in that den of financial inequity. Plus ulcers.

  308. Al from BK( CC and A.J. Welcome to the Bronx!) December 15th, 2008 at 2:21 am

    I’ll take the pitcher who is a year younger and the guy who regularly tosses CG’s.

  309. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 15th, 2008 at 2:22 am

    Nick, no worry, KRod will just blow saves like the bullpen have been blowing this season.

  310. mel December 15th, 2008 at 2:23 am

    Well, Santana had a choice and he chose to forego free agency. How was he to know that we’d have such a great bullpen in ’08?

  311. Ed - CC and AJ are now Yanks!! Aj better stays healthy!!! December 15th, 2008 at 2:23 am

    update >>>>

  312. GreenBeret7 December 15th, 2008 at 2:37 am

    Sabathia and Burnett can both pitch complete games, as can Santana. The difference is, with NYYs bullpen, there is now no reason to, unless there are special circumstances (no hitters). This bullpen is the best they’d had sin 1996-1999. There may not be another this close.

  313. Adam December 15th, 2008 at 8:08 am

    Umm go back and check those numbers. Santana will receive 151.5 if his option vests. Sabathia will get 161. Santana was babied by the Twins and started his career as a reliever, while Sabathia was abused like a 78 pinto.

    And lest ye forget, Sabathia will cost the Yankees their first two draft picks, so he did cost them some prospects…

  314. Troy December 15th, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    What seems to be forgotten is that there was tremendous competition for Johan and the Yankees were bidding against themselves in that Range. The only reason the Yankees didn’t get Santana was NOT the money but the issue of giving up Phil Hughes and more top pitching prospects. Plus Santana is considered a “gamer” which has since been reaffirmed as his performance of a Met. No one considers CC with the same pedigree. As a NY transplant in California, it will be interesting his time in NYC especially since he only choose the Yankees for the money since he waited so long to sign just to get the Giants, A’s, Dodgers or Angels interested to match or get near the Yankees offer. But of course in terms of the whole package, CC was a better deal but it’s all relative to the situation, time and competition.

  315. Brad December 15th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    The only error in your argument is…

    Johan is better than C.C.!

    Not only that, but the Yankees give up first round draft picks for C.C. because he is a Type A. What are prospects before they are prospects? DRAFT PICKS!

    So therefore, the Mets gave up crappy prospects for Johan, and didn’t have to give up draft picks, and paid him LESS MONEY (40 million less guarenteed) for a BETTER pitcher.

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