The LoHud Yankees Blog

A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Manny filling the Hot Stove void

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 17, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Welcome to New York, CC Sabathia. The big lefty will put on pinstripes tomorrow and the first question he gets will probably be what he thinks about signing Manny Ramirez.

The Manny-to-the-Yankees music was deep in the background last week. But with every day that passes, it gets a little louder. It’s a product, I think, of there not being much news since the Winter Meetings. But it’s out there.

One paper says sure, the Yankees want him. Another says they don’t. A third can’t imagine it.

As I’ve written here before, it would be a bad idea. The odds of the Yankees getting the committed version of Manny who showed up in Los Angeles are slim. This is a guy who has said on the record he does not like pressure or attention and wants a long-term contract. So bringing him to New York on a short-term deal would not seem to make much sense.

You get the idea that some in the Yankees organization want Manny and others do not. Those who care about the YES ratings want it. Those who know baseball are against it. Count Brian Cashman and Joe Girardi in the second group.

Some people are obsessed with how many runs the Yankees will score next season without “a big bat” added to the lineup. You should be more obsessed with run differential. Here are the top eight teams in the AL last season in terms of runs scored:

Texas
Boston
Minnesota
Detroit
Chicago
Cleveland
New York
Baltimore

Two of them made the playoffs. Four were .500 or below. The Yankees finished third. If the Yankees have proven one thing since 2000 it’s that you can’t mash your way to success. To win in October you need four good starters, a good bullpen and players who aren’t worn out.

Manny would be the next version of Gary Sheffeld, a big-name slugger who was forced on Cashman and Joe Torre. Sheff sure hit a lot of balls hard. But how did the Yankees do?

A lineup of aging DH types is not the way to win in the post-steroids era. The game is changing and will continue to evolve.

Finally, I will leave you with this question: If signing Manny is such a wonderful idea, why has only one team made him an offer so far?

UPDATE, 4:31 p.m.: Here is what Buster Olney wrote today:

Here’s something any executive thinking about signing Manny should consider before giving him a multiyear deal: If he gets a two-, three- or four-year deal, it probably will represent the last big-money contract he will receive — and what exactly will compel him to play hard for the duration of the deal?

Once Manny signs his next big-money deal, the financial carrot that seemed to drive him in August and September will be gone, so an employer who gives him a multiyear deal will be wholly dependent on his competitive integrity.

Good luck with that.

Bingo.

UPDATE, 4:46 p.m.: Getting e-mails from people who think I hate Manny. Are you kidding? I’m a beat writer for a paper in New York that covers the Yankees. Manny would be gold in terms of having something to write about. I hope they sign him because there will be one story after another once he starts acting up.

But what benefits me personally is not the point. I’m trying to be honest in my appraisal of the situation. It’s a good baseball debate. Manny has a lot of pros and cons and they’re sharply defined.

I personally think they would be making a mistake to trust him. But as a writer? Bring it on. Joe Girardi managing Manny Ramirez is a sit com waiting to happen.

Comments

comments

 

Advertisement

356 Responses to “Manny filling the Hot Stove void”

  1. Tim Clougher December 17th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

    I know Manny has many issue’s, but he smokes Sheffield in every offensive catagory both with his stick and antics.

  2. Chris NY December 17th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

    Amen.

  3. mel December 17th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

    Great points all around. But you can’t look just at cumulative runs. What really matters is when runs are scored, when the big, key hits are made.

    If we can key in on one thing Manny does well, it is that he hits well in the clutch. Everything else is white noise.

    Either way, we’ll be fine. Wait until January. The price might be really low. :)

  4. Tim Clougher December 17th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    From the previous thread..

    Even if Signing Manny is as stated by Albert Einstein

    “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result”

    I believe Manny is worth the risk…

  5. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    Pete’s alive!! Thank God. I was beginning to worry. :)

    Pete is dead on about Manny. We don’t need him and the smart ones in the organization don’t want him. Hopefully, it’s their opinion that will prevail.

  6. JeffG December 17th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    If Manny is such a problem, why have 10 out of 12 of his post-strike teams gone to the playoffs? Manny really held back those Cleveland and Boston and LA clubs, right?

    As for his “personality” – whatever. Chemistry: when you win yours is good, when you loose, it’s bad. 35HR, 100+ RBIS and massive A-rod protection will more than make up for his quirks. About time the Yankees had a clown again, anyway. This team is corporate boring.

  7. hwang December 17th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    1.not let Teixeira to Red Sox
    2.buy Adam Dunn
    3.bring back Pettitte

    the most important things!!!

  8. 86w183 December 17th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    You nailed it Pete!

    I still think Tex is the way to go, but failing that give me Pettite plus either Dunn or Baldelli.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that Cameron is not enough of an upgrade to cost Melky and $ 10 Million. Baldelli might be had for half that and keeps Melky for depth or a trade chip if/when needed.

  9. Artie A December 17th, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    Pete, I agree. Let’s get our pitching rotation set-up and move from there. Yankees need hitters anyway not sluggers. Seems like in 1996 we had more hitters , team players and great pitching vs sluggers who strike out. I don’t even like the Cameron/Melky trade.

  10. SJ44 December 17th, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    Now that Baldelli’s medicals have improved, I’m more for a Baldelli signing than a Manny signing.

    Makes sense financially, athletically, defensively, and in the clubhouse.

    I’m not as down on the lineup as others are.

    If the season started today, the lineup is better than Tampa’s. Its about pitching and defense.

    If they need a bat, guys will come available.

    Baldelli really intrigues me. He can be had for a lot less money than Manny, plugged into CF, and (if they desire), they can throw another mil or two Pettitte’s way to seal the deal with him.

  11. Pauly December 17th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

    Whether it’s Manny or somebody else via trade, the Yanks need some protection for A-Rod in the lineup. Crossing your fingers & hoping that Posada, Cano & Matsui bounce back is not a wise strategy.

  12. CB December 17th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

    From the last thread…

    “how does OPS+ relate to a stat like VORP?”

    They’re different in a lot of ways.

    But the main thing to keep in mind is that OPS+ doesn’t take into account the position the player plays.

    Take Placido Polanco for example. His OPS+ last season was 102. That means he was around 2% better than a league average player.

    But is a league average player a fair comparison for Hudons given that he’s a 2b and that’s a premium defensive position? Not really.

    So what VORP does it to compare Polanco’s offense to all other 2b using the comparison of a “AAAA” 2b – a guy who is just a borderline major leaguer.

    By that standard Polanco looks much better – he was 27 runs better than a replacement second baseman. That’s 2.7 wins that polanco contributed to the tigers compared to if a replacment level 2b had been playing for them.

    So VORP gives you more context for the player given their position. It also accounts for more offensive issues than only OBP and slugging % which is what goes into OPS+

  13. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

    Thank you to the poster who reminded us that Baldelli blew out his knee and needed TJS for his throwing arm in addition to the mysterious illness that they’re just now figuring out how to treat. Pass.

  14. hwang December 17th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

    1.not let Teixeira to Red Sox
    2.buy Adam Dunn
    3.bring back Pettitte

    the most important things we should do!!!

  15. Tex as a NYY December 17th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

    all the dolts that think Tex is NEVER coming to the Yankees, get ready to look silly…..REALLY SILLY !

  16. Tim Clougher December 17th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

    I’m greedy bring in Baldelli for what “if”..

    I still say grab the dread-lock…

  17. reacher December 17th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

    Peter,

    You may be swimming uphill.

  18. Bill December 17th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

    You can’t compare the Yankee teams that Sheff was on to the one today. The Yankees now have starting pitching and a bullpen. Adding Manny is not like adding Sheff since the are no longer a team that is planning on smashing into the playoffs. I am not saying I am for Manny, just that you reasoning is flawed. The Yankees on paper have one of the best rotations now and have a very good bullpen that was top 10 in ERA and 1st in Ks. So saying they should not sign Manny because the Yankees with Sheff did not do well is just crazy since this is no longer a team with no pitching.

    Also, the Chances of Manny getting a long term deal are slime. I would not be surprised if he only gets a 3 year deal like the Yankees want him for.

  19. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

    “Now that Baldelli’s medicals have improved, I’m more for a Baldelli signing than a Manny signing.”

    I second that. I think the Yanks dropped out which made them talk to tbe Brewers. Hopefully Cashman knows about it, and act quickly on signing him.

  20. Tim Clougher December 17th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

    Tex as a NYY:

    You have any intel???

  21. Joe Monte December 17th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    The Rays – Phillies World Series summed up the new but trend in baseball: speed wins games.

    Put Gardner in CF and he will help get the Yankees younger and quicker.

  22. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 17th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    Like always, Peter tells it like it is.

    We needed the offense we had a few years ago because our rotation was incredibly dumpy. That is not the case anymore.

    Manny is a nightmare that isn’t even in disguise. Sheff? He’s worse than Sheff ever was.

    His bat is legendary, but so is his craziness.

  23. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    “all the dolts that think Tex is NEVER coming to the Yankees, get ready to look silly…..REALLY SILLY !”

    **PROVE** it….

  24. hardwired December 17th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    Equating a worn-down, juice free Sheffield w/Manny Ramirez does not make for a compelling argument. Where Sheffield shriveled and disappeared in the gleam of Fenway & The Stadium (see October, 2004), Ramirez produced without fail. Would it be a Faustian deal? That’s the only qualm I have…

  25. Kj December 17th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

    Does anyone know what time the CC PC will be on YES?

  26. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 17th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

    Tim…let Tex go. Put down the bottle of Tex and slowly step away. It will drive you (and the rest of this board) to ruin if you don’t just let it go.

  27. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 17th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    I’d still take a chance on Adam Dunn in Yankee Stadium. :)

    OT but it must be said *Stay away from the camera stupid !*

    http://justjared.buzznet.com/2.....shirtless/

    (slaps forehead in disgust at work) I’m going to get some Pepsi from the machine.

  28. SJ44 December 17th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    Why pass on Baldelli?

    Did they pass on AJ Burnett because he had TJ Surgery? Nope.

    Did you see him run and throw in the post-season. He was 100%.

    He problem was his illness, not his knee or elbow.

    If his illness is under control, he is precisely what the Yankees don’t have on the major league roster. An athletic, under 30 OF who can play at a high major league level.

    The beauty of it is, it won’t cost them 20 million a year to get him.

  29. kelmanoj December 17th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    I’d rather go after Tex., improving our defense and not paying 25m+ on a guy who won’t cut his hair for the team.

  30. paulie December 17th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    I say hold off on Manny and wait till the trading deadline to see what becomes available. Maybe the A’s flop from the outset and Matt Holiday becomes available, or Jermaine Dye, or even Vlad. Best thing for baseball is for Manny to stay in the NL with the Dodgers. He’s perfect for that market and the Dodgers have the right man to manage him in Joe Torre.

    I don’t recall many big boppers on those championship teams. There were excellent hitters in the lineup with a keen eye of the strike zone and patience at the plate. Need to go back to those days, and win it with pitching and defense.

    Enough placing all-stars at each position. Let the Red Sox fall into that trap when they sign Mark Tex.

  31. Wave Your Hat December 17th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

    IMO Baldelli means more risk, not less, for the Yanks, and that is not what the Yanks need. Andrew(Official Scorer) had a very sensible comment at the end of the last thread which he ought to repost in this one.

    The more I consider it, if the Yanks intend to hold to a payroll cap around $200MM, then Pettitte and Cameron are the best and safest way to go and the most likely to get us into the playoffs this year. There’s very little risk in signing those two guys and the Yanks would be a very strong team.

    Sure, if the Yanks want to blow out the payroll then get Tex or Manny. We’d be as much of a lock as a team could ever be. But Cameron and Pettitte have little downside.

  32. MJ December 17th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

    Hi Pete,

    Telling us the 6 of the top 8 run-scoring teams in the AL didn’t make the playoffs doesn’t tell the whole story. Toronto gave up the fewest runs in baseball last year, were on that list of the top 8 run-scoring teams in the AL, and they missed the playoffs by 9 games.

    As much as good pitching is important, so is good hitting. You can’t take out Abreu/Giambi, replace them with Swisher/Nady and two good pitchers and expect that the team will be dramatically better. You still need to hit in order to score runs. Last I checked, a 1-0 loss is the same as a 13-9 loss.

  33. Tim Clougher December 17th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

    The Mad Prince in Pinstripes:

    I never said we were getting Tex..I said we wouldn’t, however I think we should go hard after Manny..

  34. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

    “I’d still take a chance on Adam Dunn in Yankee Stadium.”

    that short right porch will do him good. :D

  35. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

    I can’t see why the Yankees would target Manny over Teixeira. Teixeira is a longer commitment, but he’d be as young as Manny is now at the end of an 8 year deal. Signing Manny would either make the defense worse or force them to trade their best left handed bat (Matsui). Signing Teixeira would add a switch hitter to the lineup and make the defense better. Manny comes with all the Manny being Manny BS, Teixeira has no character problems. Maybe most of all, signing Teixeira would leave Manny as the only top tier free agent, meaning the Red Sox couldn’t wouldn’t seriously improve themselves in free agency.

  36. Patrick December 17th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

    “all the dolts that think Tex is NEVER coming to the Yankees, get ready to look silly…..REALLY SILLY !”

    K I’m ready bro

  37. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    “Put Gardner in CF and he will help get the Yankees younger and quicker.”

    Gardner definitely has the speed. The problem is that he can’t utilize that speed if he doesn’t get on base consistently. Right now, there’s no guarantee that he will. I’m all for giving him a chance, but we have to have a backup plan just in case he doesn’t come through.

  38. Tim Clougher December 17th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    paulie:

    The Sux had big bopper’s…Manny and Ortiz.

  39. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 17th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    I’m back. Yes Ed I’ve warmed up to the idea of Adam Dunn hitting in YS.

  40. teddy December 17th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    i would like a big bat, but is not a must have. run differental is they key. i agree

  41. Tim Clougher December 17th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    Laura:

    The back up plan has dread-locks…:)

  42. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 17th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    Tim,

    I know…I’m just really tired of hearing about Tex in general.

    If the Yanks would go after Manny, they’d go after Tex as it would make more sense if they determined they were going to add a big bat.

    I was just teasing you anyways.

  43. scottwebber2 December 17th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

    I normally agree with Pete but absolutely disagree on this one.
    If the Yanks sign Manny it would do wonders to get the rest of our guys to relax and deflect attention towards Manny which we all know he performs well with.

    If we sign Manny print your world series tix.

  44. bru December 17th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

    i like the list of the top offensive teams.

    that is all i need to convince me that i don’t wan’t manny or tex.

    sign pettitte & take a look at baldelli,cam or trade for another cf.

    payroll is sitting at 185 million,pettitte alone will take it to around 195 wich is high enough.

    after 09 molina,nady,damon,matsu,pettitte will all be off the books for a total of 44 million taking it down to 151 million needing one outfielder if ajax is ready & we sign baldelli or trade for a cf.

    this gives us flexibility to make some moves because more of our players will be tradeable.we can sign a 20 million dollar a year outfielder & have payroll around 171 million with our pitching staff still in place.

    by then hopefully cervelli can catch or backup posada.

  45. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story December 17th, 2008 at 2:28 pm

    For the love of medieval Nottingham, please don’t sign Manny!

    Forget about his age, his poor fielding or any tangible results and consider this: he plays when he wants to play.

    Do we _really_ want a guy like that on the Yankees?

  46. hobbie December 17th, 2008 at 2:28 pm

    Since Baldelli’s illness is not a severe as first feared, I concur that he is the most attractive bat out there. Less likely to bring excess baggage into the clubhouse than Manny. Even if he cannot go all the time he could be part of a platoon in CF

  47. Tim Clougher December 17th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    The Mad Prince in Pinstripes:

    No prob, I know it’s a pipe dream, but damn manny behind A-rod, god Arod is great now just imagine his numbers…

  48. disco stu December 17th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

    Peter … no way can you compare Manny to Gary Sheffield.

    Just because a certain formula worked one way in the past doesnt mean that it is the “only” way to do it in the future.

    The two biggest reasons why the Yankees have come up short in the post-season in recent years is because their starting pitching could not match the other team’s (Angels, Red Sox, Tigers, Indians) and because the offense went to sleep. Having Manny in a short series guarantees that Arod sees one hittable pitch after another … because pitchers are scared to death of facing Manny (especially with runners on base). I think it also will help Arod relax more knowing that he is no longer the big stick in the lineup that has to carry the team … they will compliment each other the way Manny complimented Big Papi.

    You get Manny, with the pitching staff we have now assembled, and the Yankees are now built to win in October, not just over 162 games.

    I say get him and get him now.

  49. mike December 17th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

    Hell they are the Yankees and its only money get um both. LOL seriously Im a fan of Manny the Yankees have always had some controversial players ex. Reggie Jackson, Gary Shefield and they have always produced for them. Like Pete said it will make great copy.

  50. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 17th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

    “Do we really want a guy like that on the Yankees?”

    Rebecca it’s not like this is a good arguement I don’t want him but we’ve put worse out there.

  51. Tim Clougher December 17th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

    Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Staying to write the story:

    I know I’m alone, but I do..

  52. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

    Brandon,

    Cashman should really notice that. consistant 40 homers each year, that’s even more consistant than A-Rod hitting 50 homers in odd years. :shock:

  53. CB December 17th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

    “The more I consider it, if the Yanks intend to hold to a payroll cap around $200MM, then Pettitte and Cameron are the best and safest way to go and the most likely to get us into the playoffs this year.”

    Overall I tend to agree. I think people are minimizing the importance of Pettite and his innings.

    I guess the one thing I’d think about in addition to Pettitte Cameron is this.

    What if Pettitte + Cameron roughly costs the same as Pettite + Dunn?

    There are going to be good free agent bats available after tex and manny sign and they will be relative bargains.

    But all of those relative bargains are likely to come with the problem of that player not fitting in defensively.

    If you hit Dunn 3rd in front of Alex he’d hit 50 HR no problem while getting on base at close to a .400 clip.

    But where to play him?

  54. mel December 17th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

    Laura,

    Here’s the stuff about the press conference tomorrow. Maybe Pete can confirm?

    Poor CC, he checks into a hotel under an alias and has already moved hotels. He needs to get a house quickly.

    Parlor game-what alias did CC use?

    My guess is *OC Jones*

    http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....c_sab.html

  55. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 17th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    Glad to see people are coming to grips with reality.

    Tex and Manny are not necessary.

    We have a really good team. We need to shore up our bench and consider another CF I suppose.

    Then, we need to lockdown Pettitte or another starter and we’re in the right direction. Maybe the championship is within our grasp, maybe its not. But it ain’t too far off.

    I detect those good ole NYY vs. BOS battles in the ALCS coming soon…

  56. eric December 17th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    “How did the yankees do?” -uhhh Scheff mashed in the playoffs and we were 3 outs away from going to the WS.

  57. JOJO December 17th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    The argument by JB that Manny doesn’t like pressure and thus, wouldn’t like NY, misses the point that MANNY DOESN’T FEEL PRESSURE! It’s why he’s such a clutch hitter. How about 2 years ago when the Sawx were down 3 games to 1 to the Indians. Manny CREATED EXTRA PRESSURE by saying it wouldn’t be the end of the world if they lost. But then he went out and led them to another World Title. He may not like pressure but he performs inspite of it. As I’ve heard other people say, he’s the ANTI-AROD.

    Bottom line is this…if Cashman doesn’t want Manny, improve the offense. Boston is going to sign Tex and a line-up that was already better than the Yanks last year will be considerably better with that addition. All our pitching additions have only potentially given us a staff equal to Boston. They have 3 top of the rotation guys in Beckett, Dice-K & Lester. So the differences in the offense with a Boston addition of Tex would be glaring….GLARING I SAY!!!

  58. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    Bringing in a one dimensional player like Dunn because of a short right field could also destroy whatever value he might have. Look at what that short porch did to Giambi, who was as complete a hitter as you’d want to see during his Oakland days. If Dunn isn’t hitting home runs, he’s totally useless.

  59. Bob Mac December 17th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

    I believe the Yankees are waiting to see if Boston signs Teixiera before acting on Cameron. If they do sign him, I believe they will move in a more significant manner such as Manny, Lowe or the like. Teixiera would add him to essentially the same very good team as last year–a definite improvement. The Yankees have replace 34 wins from last year with 37 and have lost 50 HRs while replacing that with 20 or so. Wang, Posada and Matsui will hopefully be healthy which will obviously help. I still see Boston with a similar, if not currently deeper pitching staff, and more offense if they get Teixiera. I don’t think the Yankees will only add another .240 hitter in Cameron and a secondary pitcher like Wolf. At least, I hope not.

  60. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

    SJ44,

    Pass because he made a few spot appearances and didn’t sustain his performance over the course of the postseason which is only a mere speck of games compared to the regular season. There are too many concerns with his durability to rely on him as a long-term OF option especially when there may be better options. For instance, I’d take Hudson/Kemp over Cano/Cabrera/Gardner/Melky. If they don’t bring in a bona fide outfielder now, they’ll have to return to the free agent market after 2009. Sure they can sign Holliday but since they can avoid another huge contract they should. Of course the whole plan I mentioned on the previous page blows up in my face if the Dodgers don’t sign Manny and trade their most valuable trade chip in Kemp to upgrade their hole at 2b.

  61. Scott December 17th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

    Reality check Pete. The Yankees scored 3 runs or less 70 times last year. 70 times!! Anyone that watched the games last year should know this team needs a big time offensive upgrade. This team needs Teix or Manny. Period!

  62. Tom December 17th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    I wonder if Baldelli has Myasthenia gravis. It is a Channelopathy that is literally translated to mean “serious muscle-weakness”.

  63. vin December 17th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    “The beauty of it is, it won’t cost them 20 million a year to get him.”

    Good point… anyone care to guess as to how much Rocco will sign for? My guess: 2yrs / 15mill

  64. Tim Clougher December 17th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    JOJO:

    Great point…….

  65. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    Correction: I’d take Kemp/Hudson over Cano/Melky/Gardner/Baldelli.

  66. teddy December 17th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    can’t count on aj so, that should be a factor as well

  67. jennifer December 17th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

    Of course the pc will be on yes. I am setting my dvr from 12 to 6pm.

  68. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

    “For instance, I’d take Hudson/Kemp over Cano/ **Cabrera** /Gardner/ **Melky** ”

    LOL HAHAHAHAS, I didn’t know we have to OFer name Melky Cabrera?

    Seriously, Kemp isn’t a CFer and sucks defensively. so you would rather replace Cano with Hudson? that’s like replace Kinsler for Jeff Kent to play 2B.

  69. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

    Thanks CB.

    Can OPS+ not be calculated by position because the sample size is too small?

    Also, does an OPS+ of 130 mean the same thing over any season? For example, lets say one season an unusually high number of players are closer to the average OPS+, wouldn’t an OPS+ of 130 in that situation show a player was more dominant that year than a player with an OPS+ of 130 when several players have similar OPS+ in a different year? <-not sure if that makes any sense, I guess what I’m kind of asking is if it’s always evenly distributed?

  70. JR Yankees December 17th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

    Baldelli would be a great addition if he can prove he can play 4 times a week. I think a guy like Rocco is what Cashman’s new ‘plan’ is all about.

    Forget hampering this team with another 37 year old looking for 4+ years and 100M and get a sound OFer in Baldelli.

    Unless Cash wants to spend more money and get Teixeira, which I don’t see happening anyway, he should focus on Baldelli and Pettitte.

    Baldelli can play CF 4 days a week with Gardner/Melky spelling him and then next year he can slide to one of the corners.

  71. CB December 17th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

    “Since Baldelli’s illness is not a severe as first feared, I concur that he is the most attractive bat out there. ”

    We have no idea who severe it is. His other condition was considered fatal.

    Better than fatal is a very low standard for “not as severe as first feared.”

    Andrew’s comments in the last thread on Baldelli are very sound.

    He’s less risky due to monetary issues but his health is still an enormous issue and if you do sign him it’s very difficult to have any sense of what you are getting from him.

    Forget the illness – he just hasn’t played much baseball at all over the past 3-4 years.

    That alone is a big factor in what his expected performance would be.

    Signing him might be the right thing to do – but it will clearly be a risk.

    In many ways for the yankee’s roster spots are more valuable than money is.

    Given Baldelli a roster spot while passing on other CF options will incur a significant opportunity cost to the club.

    It may be worth it but it’s a considerable risk on a team that is full of other health risks.

  72. Evan December 17th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    “If signing Manny is such a wonderful idea, why has only one team made him an offer so far”

    If we use that logic than signing CC was a terrible idea considering truly only one team offered him a contract. (Milwaukee was a save face contract offer).

    Look I agree he’s probably not a good teammate etc etc, but the reason he hasn’t been offered is not because of that or his skill level, it’s because of the years he wants guaranteed and the amount of $. However if a team (insert yankees) can get him for 2 or 3 years than you are gettting the best right handed hitter of our generation… End of story.

  73. Alexander December 17th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    Assuming that Posada,Cano,Matsui are going to come back and hit like their normal selves is really banking on an unsure thing.

    I could care less about Manny’s antics, I care about his ability on the field. The man is a force of nature. he is fine for 2-3 years.

    also,if yankees don’t want those type of rowdy,cause problem players. Then Doc Gooden, and Darryl Strawberry or David Well’s would never have been here.

  74. pat December 17th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    Well that was pure drivel. Most of the highest scoring teams missed the playoffs, so scoring runs isn’t important? That is just dumb. You win games by outscoring the opponent. So you try to maximize your runs scored and minimize your runs allowed. Just because eight of the top ten teams that did the former failed to do the latter doesn’t make scoring runs a bad thing.
    That being said, Dunn would seem to be a better value then Manny, but if the Yanks can get Manny for a song, I say do it. I don’t care how motivated he is or what kind of clubhouse presence he is, as long as he keeps getting on base.

  75. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 17th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    CC + AJ will have thier joint press conference tomorrow. I’m still pissed Andy hasn’t made his decision it would have made a hell of a back pg. CC, AJ, Andy or Sheets. 10 MILLION TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT :evil:

  76. Chris December 17th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    I usually agree with what you write but this time I can’t stand how completely naive you are being. You are writing these articles like you know for sure Brian Cashman under no circumstance will sign Manny. I almost hope just to prove you wrong they do sign Manny.

    I have said it before and I will say it again. This offense is weak, our SP is now really good. So instead of losing games 8-7 we will now lose them 3-2. UNLESS we sign another big bat like Tex, Manny or Dunn.

    Sign Manny, move Damon back to center. Dh Matsui.
    Sign Tex, Swisher/Damon/Gardner in LF and CF. DH Matsui/Swisher
    Sign Dunn, trade Matsui for a prospect and DH Dunn

  77. Scott December 17th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    yeah it could be that other teams are waiting to see if Manny’s price comes down.

  78. Wave Your Hat December 17th, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    “If you hit Dunn 3rd in front of Alex he’d hit 50 HR no problem while getting on base at close to a .400 clip.
    But where to play him?”

    IMO Dunn is not a Yankee Stadium left fielder. He could play RF if you are willing to take a defensive hit. Presumably he’d be better than Abreu was last year. That would force Nady over to LF and Damon to CF, so you manage to get worse at all three OF positions simultaneously. Pretty good trick.

    Dunn played 19 games at 1B last year (only 128 innings), 0 in 2007 and 2 in 2006. So, realistically speaking, it would be on the job training for him as an everyday 1B, and you’d expect his defense to be consistent with that. It would also result in worse CF defense however you slice it.

    At DH, he requires you getting rid of Matsui, so he becomes more expensive and of less net benefit at the same time.

    At the same time, Dunn won’t be cheap.

    I’m sure that other teams have noticed his fine sabermetric qualities.

    If the Angels or the Nats lose out on Teixeira, my guess is they will be all over Dunn. Same with the Dodgers if they don’t get Manny. I could even envision the Rays going for him as DH.

    Bottom line, I like Dunn, but I don’t think he is a realistic pick-up for the Yanks.

  79. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    I saw a clip of the **Mets introducing K-Rod**, which made me wonder where’s **Putz**? talk about playing favorites. :X

    anyways, in 24 hours the Yanks will steal the Mets thunder when introducing CC and AJ. :D

  80. yanksfanmc December 17th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

    Cash has probably been working the phones seeing what he can get for Nady and Matsui.

    If he can find a taker in Matsui without having to pay a large portion of his salary, Manny will be here in an eye blink.

    Nady would be easier to move, but leaves us without a right fielder. Manny could handle the small RF in YS, but would be a disaster in most road games.

    Can’t trade Damon, hes taken on a huge leadership role here and was big in the recruitment of CC and AJ

  81. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

    Ed,

    I corrected my misprint if you read the whole thread. I meant to say I’d rather have Kemp/Hudson than Cano/Baldelli/Melky/Gardner. I think that if the Yankees are passing on Manny or Tex and sticking with Matsui and Damon for 1 more year, they should upgrade CF in 2009 since it’s the weakest position. Here’s my full post from the previous thread.

    SJ44,
    It’s quite possible that the Yankees are currently split over Manny for the reasons you’ve stated.

    1) Perhaps the market for Matsui is weak or non-existent so the DH spot is blocked.

    2) The Yankees would be too RH with him which doesn’t play well in YS.

    I would like to add 3

    3) If they only want him as a DH, they would be short a LF after Damon leaves and be in a situation where they’re giving yet ANOTHER large contract to Matt Holliday who also happens to be…a RH hitter.

    The solution would seem to be.

    1) Stick with Matsui in 2009 but target a lefty DH/1b like Prince Fielder to replace Matsui after 2009. Trade for the target if you can move Matsui at the deadline and if not, wait until the 2009 offseason.

    2) Assuming no Manny and no Tex, you immediately upgrade the weakest position (CF) with a versatile OF who can play CF in place of Melky/Gardner in 09 and also make it possible to keep Austin Jackson in AAA for 2009 and groom him on a friendlier timetable. This OF could play CF in 2009 and either LF in 2010 if Jackson is ready for CF or CF again in 2010 if Jackson needs more time in AAA.

    Looking forward to 2010 the Yankees would have a DH/1b like Fielder, Swisher as a 1b/LF and a LF/CF.

    Assuming the possibility that Austin Jackson remains in the minors for 2010 you can make it work by sliding Fielder from DH to 1b, Swisher from 1b to LF and your LF/CF to CF in place of an unready Austin Jackson. This way you open the DH spot to be shared by older vets like Jeter, Posada and Rodriguez.

    You equate Cano with Kemp but you should also make sure you factor in the market of available players at their respective positions. Cano is currently replaceable on the open market with a cheaper, comparably talented hitter and defensively superior player in Orlando Hudson. But if you pass on acquiring a LF/CF now instead of planning for Damon’s departure, you will have a hole in LF that forces you to absorb another long term contract like Matt Holliday or opt for an overrated talent (and Boras client) like Rick Ankiel. If Jackson isn’t ready, you’re really in trouble and totally short in the OF.
    All factors considered, I hope Manny signs with the Dodgers so that they look to upgrade 2b with one of their surplus outfielders like Matt Kemp.

    My moves would be

    1) Pass on Manny and Tex (I know this makes me unpopular) and stick with Damon and Matsui for 1 more year.

    2) Let Manny re-sign with the Dodgers so that I have a better chance of acquiring Kemp.

    3) Sign Orlando Hudson for 2b.

    4) Target Prince Fielder for DH/1b at the trade deadline or in the 2009 offseason.

    The only problem is the cost of Prince Fielder on the trade market. I’m sure the Brewers shot for the moon if the Yankees hinted at him during the Cameron negotiations.

  82. Scott December 17th, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    I don’t think Manny would be much worse then Abreu. That guy was an awful right fielder.

  83. Jared December 17th, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    Right Pete, why would Yankee fans want Manny? He was at the heart of the Boston lineup that won the 2007 WS, was the 2004 WS MVP, put the Dodgers on his back this season and carried them to playoffs (and hit 500 in those playoffs), is a guaranteed 30 and 115, and would probably hit .750 against Boston next season.

  84. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    “this gives us flexibility to make some moves because more of our players will be tradeable.we can sign a 20 million dollar a year outfielder & have payroll around 171 million with our pitching staff still in place.”

    This is the logic I don’t understand. The Yankees could sign Teixeira for $22mil a year, open the stadium with a killer team and still go into next offseason with a pay roll of around $175 and no holes.

  85. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    “Laura: The back up plan has dread-locks…:)”

    Ugh, I hope not.

  86. ellen December 17th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    Or it could be that Manny has overdone the song-and-dance routine that got him out of Boston, and the other teams are wary about the likelihood of seeing it up close. Made-up injuries and taking games off doesn’t phase some people on this board. I hope these issues give the Yankees pause, though. Manny being Manny would get real old, real quick. And I haven’t heard any cogent argument as to why we shouldn’t absolutely expect Manny to be Manny here. Because of the great respect he shows the game? He was “the man” in Boston, and that didn’t keep him from being a punk.

  87. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    If NYY were looking for a cheap left handed bat, who could play in left or DH, Garrett Anderson would be a killer in Yankee Stadium. I’m sure that Andy Pettitte would love that. He’s not as good a fielder as he was a few years ago, but, certainly better than Ramirez. At least you know you’ll get effort at all times.

  88. Joe from Long Island December 17th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    Does anybody remember the game against Boston, July 5th at the Stadium? I certainly do because I was there that Saturday afternoon.

    Boston came back in the 9th inning, loading the bases against Mariano, and had the go-ahead runs on. Up comes Manny Ramirez to hit.

    Manny takes three straight pitches without taking the bat off his shoulder, called strike three, and walks back to the dugout. Reports were that he had had a disagreement with the Sox about something. But he strikes out in a critical spot, without even swinging, and his team loses.

    So, if some people get their wish and Manny signs with the Yankees, will they just look at a similar situation when Manny is peeved about his contract or something as just a case of “Manny being Manny”? Just accept it?

  89. KennyH123 December 17th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    Damon back to CF? Great idea. Why do you think they moved him in the first place? Because he is no longer good enough there. Just what we need, weaken yet another position defensively just to add offense.

    Pitching and defense win championships. Cameron or Gardner are both outstanding in CF. Either would be fine there.

    As for Tex, I’ll type this slowly because apparently some of you are slow on the uptake. THE YANKEES AREN’T INTERESTED IN SIGNING TEIXEIRA TO THAT KIND OF CONTRACT. It’s ain’t happening. Ever. End of story.

  90. Espresso December 17th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    “A lineup of aging DH types is not the way to win in the post-steroids era. The game is changing and will continue to evolve.”

    I say Amen to this. I’m not old, but I guess I’m old school. Mashing moonshots might look good on SC, but I think good pitching, defense, hit and run, steals…are what make baseball great. I like home runs and they get a ballpark rocking, but a runner bolting for second and the catcher coming out of the shoot firing is the most exciting thing in sports in my opinion. I am glad to see players doing it with hard work and natural ability again. I’m all for advances in training and technique leading to bigger numbers, but there was such a disconnect between what had been done historically and what was being done in the late 90′s or so. I think was threatening to devalue past players like Ruth and Aaron, and especially guys like Ty Cobb and DiMaggio who were just superb hitters.

    That said, the fact that it really is going to be elite hitters putting up those numbers now (as opposed to good ones packed full of junk) makes Manny even more valuable. Guys like Manny, Arod and Pujols (Howard, Feilder…) that can mash like that naturally should be more important now that Sosa et al are done.

  91. al arodien December 17th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    Because he is manny! I belive we should sign him, he gets along very good with A-rod and jeter!!!!

  92. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    “Manny takes three straight pitches without taking the bat off his shoulder, called strike three, and walks back to the dugout. Reports were that he had had a disagreement with the Sox about something. But he strikes out in a critical spot, without even swinging, and his team loses.

    So, if some people get their wish and Manny signs with the Yankees, will they just look at a similar situation when Manny is peeved about his contract or something as just a case of “Manny being Manny”? Just accept it?”

    Joe, I’ve been arguing this point forever now to no avail. People are blinded by Manny’s hitting skills. They seem willing to accept his bad behavior. I had no idea that going 8 yrs w/o a ring had made Yankee fans so desperate that they would consider having this bum as a Yankee.

  93. CB December 17th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    “If Dunn isn’t hitting home runs, he’s totally useless.”

    Not true. Dunn would help the line up get back to what it was before – a patient line up that works the count, sees a ton of pitches and gets starting pitchers out of the game quickly.

    Dunn saw 4.4 pitches per plate appearance. That was second most in baseball, right ahead of Abreu and Giambi.

    Dunn also gets on base all of the time. He was on base 39% of the time. That higher than Abreu’s on base percentage last year which was only 37%.

    Dunn is a very limited player but he does three important things very well – sees a lot of pitches, gets on base all of the time, and hits for power.

    Sure he has huge flaws – but if you want a better player you are going to have to pay much more money.

    And that’s why many people are arguing for Tex so strongly. They feel that the yankees shouldn’t settle for a player like Dunn when a guy like Tex is available.

    But money is clearly and issue and while dunn isn’t nearly the player tex is nore will he cost anywhere close to what tex will.

    Dunn could get 18% of the total guaranteed money that Tex gets. There’s a much smaller committment that would allow them to maintain roster flexibility.

    You yourself have made the argument that the team can’t afford to tie ridiculous amounts of money into 7-8 player long term.

    If you aren’t willing to do that you either have to have position players ready to play over the next two years (which the team doesn’t outside of perhaps Jackson) or you have to “settle” for guys with defects like Dunn.

  94. bru December 17th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    petes point i believe is to say that the yankees being at the top or the best offense in the league didn’t win the world series for them.

    texas had the best offense last year & didn’t come close,half of the top 8 teams were under 500.

    run differential is the important thing.

    it doesn’t matter the score as long as you win.

    if they can lock pettitte up & get a cf without giving up prospects i think we are heading in the right direction with pettitte,nady,matsui,molina,damon off the books after 09.

    stay with the plan for having a good rotation,bullpen & one piece at a time upgrade when you can if it makes sense.

  95. teddy December 17th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    where dunn playing though

  96. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    “Here’s the stuff about the press conference tomorrow. Maybe Pete can confirm?”

    Oh, okay. I thought for sure that Pete said they’d be doing it in two separate press conferences. Should be interesting to hear what these guys have to say.

  97. CB December 17th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    “At the same time, Dunn won’t be cheap.

    I’m sure that other teams have noticed his fine sabermetric qualities.”

    Very fair point. Competition for Dunn could emerge in ways that make him much more expensive than I’m assuming.

    They could use another bat. There are plenty of bats out on the market.

    But no good fits outside of Tex.

  98. eric December 17th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    I’m dumbfounded out people can think Dunn is better value than Manny. As a seasons ticket holder, I have 0 problems paying an extra whatever to have a huge bat in the middle of the lineup to protect A-Rod. Have you people watched the playoffs at all? A guy like Dunn gets chewed up in the playoffs. That lonnnnng swing don’t usually do well (See: Soriano, Alfonso). Manny is the guy we didn’t want to see up in the clutch, who after 2002 owned Mariano.

  99. gianthinker December 17th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    Manny is a head case. But you cant deny what his bat would do for the lineup, effort or not. Manny not trying is like 3 average guys trying their hardest. He’s a beast at the plate. Matsui’s knee condition would be a big factor I’d suppose.

  100. Harris December 17th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    Pete’s probable lineup
    1.Damon
    2.Jeter
    3.Nady
    4.Arod
    5.Hideki Matsui
    6.Posada
    7.Cano
    8.Cameron
    9.Swisher
    ____________________________________________________________
    What is that team missing? SPEED, POWER and ability to get on base

    now look

    1.Damon-lf
    2.Jeter-ss
    3.Arod-3b
    4.Manny-dh
    5.nady-rf
    6.Posada-c
    7.Cano-2b
    8.Swisher-1b
    9.Gardner-cf

    ____________________________________________________________
    Obviously asseses power, speed and manny’s .400+ OBP and Gardners on base, bunting skills and defense are a huge plus in an aging offense.
    _____________________________________________________________
    Now what do we do with Matsui? Teach him to play first base and have him platoon with Swisher!!!
    ____________________________________________________________
    Nick Swisher in his career hits .252 against lefties compared to .240 against righties. Also you can give Johnny Damon an occasional day off as well with Nick Swisher in left field. Signing Manny and forgeting about Cameron does wonders for the bench as well. Because you would have Melky and Swisher/Matsui as guys coming off the bench/Pinch hitters and for Melky, maybe a possible defensive replacement. Please comment on flaws if there are any!

  101. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    “where dunn playing though”

    He’d have to be the DH, which means we’d have to ditch Matsui, which is something I don’t want to do.

  102. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 17th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    “Not true. Dunn would help the line up get back to what it was before – a patient line up that works the count, sees a ton of pitches and gets starting pitchers out of the game quickly.

    *Dunn saw 4.4 pitches per plate appearance. That was second most in baseball, right ahead of Abreu and Giambi.*

    Dunn also gets on base all of the time. He was on base 39% of the time. That higher than Abreu’s on base percentage last year which was only 37%.

    Dunn is a very limited player but he does three important things very well – sees a lot of pitches, gets on base all of the time, and hits for power.

    Sure he has huge flaws – but if you want a better player you are going to have to pay much more money.

    And that’s why many people are arguing for Tex so strongly. They feel that the yankees shouldn’t settle for a player like Dunn when a guy like Tex is available.

    But money is clearly and issue and while dunn isn’t nearly the player tex is nore will he cost anywhere close to what tex will.

    Dunn could get 18% of the total guaranteed money that Tex gets. There’s a much smaller committment that would allow them to maintain roster flexibility.

    You yourself have made the argument that the team can’t afford to tie ridiculous amounts of money into 7-8 player long term.

    If you aren’t willing to do that you either have to have position players ready to play over the next two years (which the team doesn’t outside of perhaps Jackson) or you have to “settle” for guys with defects like Dunn.”

    CB you just made the biggest point, his value is at the cheapest it will ever be how is he still on the market, you have to believe the price raises as soon as Tex signs somewhere, why wait that long ?

  103. gayle December 17th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    Instead of playing lets see who the Yankees will sign if anyone how about who will be at tomorrows press conference

    Hal – for sure
    Hank – If Hal let him leave the state of Florida (I say no)
    Randy Levine – He is always there
    Cash- YEP
    Girardi – He should be
    jeter – he should be

    Anyone I am missing.
    Of and of course Kay will do the hosting on YES

  104. JOJO December 17th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    There is truth to the game changing back to the pre Steroid Era level. Home Runs & Scoring was down last year through-out the league. I think the trend will continue. Pitching, Defense & Speed will become more important. A guy like Gardner may become very valuable if he can improve his hitting.

    Adam Dunn may be a good move. He’s basically a better version of the Giambi we had the last couple years.

  105. 86w183 December 17th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    Dunn has a career OBP of .381 so it appears he can do a few more things than just hit HR. I’m no fan of his defense, but I can live with him in LF or 1B for a year until Matsui vacates the DH slot. Five straight years of 40+ HR is hard for me to ignore, especially when it appears the market on him is so soft.

    You sign Dunn you keep Melky and Gardner for late inning defense. It’s not my first choice, but an option worth considering.

    the Yanks had an unusual reaosn last year with RSIP and that isn’t likely to repeat. I’m more confident about Matsui’s health than Posada, but if both are healthy those are big upgrades.

    As for the big drop from Giambi to Swisher…. in the last four years Giambi hit 115 HR and drove in 335. Swisher hit 102 and drove in 316. Considering improved defense and being almost ten years younger, Swisher is a better bet for offensive productivity in the future.

  106. ellen December 17th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    Joe, that was exactly the game I was thinking of. Kinda refutes the pie-in-the-sky posts about how Manny will rake against the Yankees because … of the history? the rivalry? The gravity of the game? Or . . . not.

  107. Ty December 17th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    Pitching and Defense!!! What part of Cashman’s plan aren’t people following? Yankees are focusing on winning by shutting down the opposing offense with a dominant rotation and lights out bullpen. Were they to sign Pettitte and Baldelli who would sub in the OF and at DH we would take the division. We gave Boston as good as we got last season and owned Tampa Bay. Our problems came against teams like the O’s and Royals who we should have handled better. I have no problem with the offense as currently constructed and feel that it will be far more dynamic for 2009. Thank you Cashman for (hopefully) sticking to a sound plan.

  108. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    “Dunn has a career OBP of .381 so it appears he can do a few more things than just hit HR”

    Yeah, he can walk and he can strike out. That would be about it.

  109. TJyankee21 December 17th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

    While I think the Yankees need another bat, I still think another starter should be the priority. To start the season with Joba and Hughes in the rotation, with both of them on inning limits, would be extremely risky. If CC, AJ, or Wang go down with an injury for a long period of time, they would be in the same position as last year.

    With that said, I do not want to see Manny as a Yankee. He is older, terrible defensively, and just an added distraction to the team. I know he is one of the best hitters today but it is not the direction the Yankees are moving. They are trying to get younger and more athletic.

  110. jennifer December 17th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    I heard Putz is being introduced tomorrow. HMMM lets see. Do we send the A++ camera crew to CC and AJ or to Putz?

  111. gianthinker December 17th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

    Clearly trying to scoop Teixeira up in front of Boston for say 8yrs, $180 would be a much more wise move than getting Manny. However I do think we need to match someone up with Arod and if Boston adds Tex for the next decade we might HAVE TO add Manny for the next 2-3 years just to boost the offense.

  112. bru December 17th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    Joe Monte

    i agree but a 320 obp will hurt them big time & will not cut it.

    wether baldelli,gardner,melky we need a decent obp from our cf.

  113. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    “I heard Putz is being introduced tomorrow. HMMM lets see. Do we send the A++ camera crew to CC and AJ or to Putz?”

    well either way, we would be stealing the Mets’ thunder. :D

  114. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    CB
    December 17th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
    “If Dunn isn’t hitting home runs, he’s totally useless.”

    Not true. Dunn would help the line up get back to what it was before – a patient line up that works the count, sees a ton of pitches and gets starting pitchers out of the game quickly.

    Dunn saw 4.4 pitches per plate appearance. That was second most in baseball, right ahead of Abreu and Giambi

    ————————————————————

    I may have overstated the degree of Dunn’s uselessness, and the walks are fine as long as somebody picks him up. As a ley hitter, I’d still taher have Garrett Anderson. He doesn’t walk a lot, but, he can still hit, especially in Yankee Stadium.

  115. Will December 17th, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    So they have 25 mil for manny per year on the payroll but not 20-25 for the younger, better tex that fills a need? You can’t use money as an excuse anymore pete, and please don’t say long term deal vs short term because I’m not buyin that either. The real reason is they need to leave 1b open for jeter/posada

  116. gianthinker December 17th, 2008 at 3:01 pm

    gayle-I doubt he’ll be there but I’d really like Ca$hman to call Wang and have him there so the press conference can celebrate our ‘Big 3′ rotation. I’d prefer we’d already have Andy signed or whoever our #5 was so we could have the full pitching staff their to welcome AJ and CC but obviously thats not happening. But I would really like to see Wang there. I’m sure he’s not even in the country though.

  117. Tarheelyank December 17th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    I can’t believe I am actually defending Manny, But here goes.
    We all know he’s a flake of the highest order. That’s not a problem. The question is- is he a “cancer”? I for one am not going to buy into the Boston propaganda machine. Led by Baghdad Bob Gammons. The fact is HE WAS NOT HAPPY IN BOSTON.

    “The Red Sox don’t deserve a player like me. During my years here I’ve seen how they have mistreated other great players when they didn’t want them to try to turn the fans against them.
    “The Red Sox did the same with guys like Nomar Garciaparra and Pedro Martinez, and now they do the same with me. Their goal is to paint me as the bad guy. I love Boston fans, but the Red Sox don’t deserve me. I’m not talking about money. Mental peace has no price and I don’t have peace here.”

    Or how about Pedro-
    The three-time Cy Young Award winner said his new club, the New York Mets “have shown more respect in days than Boston did in seven years …”

    I don’t remember any talk of him being a cancer in Cleveland. He certainly wasn’t in LA. Maybe it’s just the Sox front office and the city of Boston that he hates. They can annoy the hell out of me. Now, I don’t advocate quitting on your team. That’s not the right way. But remember he’s a flake so maybe that’s his way of dealing with a situation he hates. A Manny-Arod duo would be something to see.
    Having said all that I still think Tex fills our needs a lot better then Manny.

  118. pete December 17th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    Alright this is getting pretty ridiculous. If, for fiscal reasons, the Yankees cannot (or do not want to) afford to pay Manny $25 mil per year to produce, that’s fine and understandable. But don’t give me this crap about it making the team worse, and don’t make the Sheffield comparison, or the dynasty of the ’90s comparison. First off, let’s look at Manny’s teams in the past. Two have won world series, and 10 out of 12 have made the playoffs. “Manny being Manny” was all well and good until he didn’t want to be on the Red Sox anymore, but even then he was one of the best hitters in the league. I mean honestly I get that hustle is important, but if you ground out you’re out, no matter how hard you run to first. On the Sheffield front, first of all, Manny absolutely blows sheffield out of the water when it comes to average and OBP, and is a bit better in terms of power. Second, how many yankee teams didn’t make the playoffs with sheffield on the team? Oh right, none. And those teams had worse pitching than the current one does. The fact is, to get to the playoffs, you need a consistent offense, because if you are in the AL East right now, banking on a shutdown pitching staff won’t do you any good because every other night (at least) you’re facing a stud yourself. So sure, you can expect Sabathia, Wang, and to a lesser extent Burnett and Chamberlain to be consistently good, but you can’t expect them to outduel guys like halladay, beckett, lester, price, kazmir, garza, shields, etc. every time out. Having an offense that’s going to give you 5 or 6 runs per game goes a long way towards ensuring a playoff spot, it just generally doesn’t help you push through the playoffs b/c of the natural volatility of hitters during short series. As for the ’90s comparison, first off, those teams had dominant starters and great bullpens, plus a very solid 1-9 offense, even if it lacked in the 40+ HR department. That doesn’t mean that home runs hurt your offense. As a matter of fact, I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to proclaim that 40 HRs is actually more valuable to a team than 40 doubles, since not every double will create even one run let alone 2 or 3 or even 4. Personally, I’d love any of Manny, Dunn, or Tex, though for obvious reasons, Tex would be preferred based on his being a 1B, which we lack, rather than a poor fielding OF/DH, which we do not lack (though none of ours come anywhere close to the production of Dunn or Manny). But if the Yankees honestly think that spending $20 mil on Pettitte and Cameron would actually be better than spending $15 mil on Dunn of even $25 mil on tex or manny, they are just stupid. Cameron and Pettitte are both serviceable baseball players, but personally I’d rather spend the money on a #3 hitter than a #9 hitter and a #5 starter, since we have a few guys who are capable of playing those roles, most likely every bit as well as pettitte and cameron. Sure melky and gardner are both pretty weak noodle bats, but do you really think Cameron is going to hit 25 hrs in yankee stadium in the best pitching division in baseball? Probably not. As for Pettitte, yes he could probably give you 200 innings, but how good would they be? I know Hughes has an innings cap, but how much worse would a combination of him, Aceves, and Kennedy be, and how important is that likely minute difference in a goddam #5 starter? Get a bat. Period.

  119. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 17th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    -Yeah, he can walk and he can strike out. That would be about it.-

    Take your time to read CB’s post. :)

    Not true. Dunn would help the line up get back to what it was before – a patient line up that works the count, sees a ton of pitches and gets starting pitchers out of the game quickly.

    Dunn saw 4.4 pitches per plate appearance. That was second most in baseball, right ahead of Abreu and Giambi.

    Dunn also gets on base all of the time. He was on base 39% of the time. That higher than Abreu’s on base percentage last year which was only 37%.

    Dunn is a very limited player but he does three important things very well – sees a lot of pitches, gets on base all of the time, and hits for power.

    Sure he has huge flaws – but if you want a better player you are going to have to pay much more money.

    And that’s why many people are arguing for Tex so strongly. They feel that the yankees shouldn’t settle for a player like Dunn when a guy like Tex is available.

    But money is clearly and issue and while dunn isn’t nearly the player tex is nore will he cost anywhere close to what tex will.

    Dunn could get 18% of the total guaranteed money that Tex gets. There’s a much smaller committment that would allow them to maintain roster flexibility.

    You yourself have made the argument that the team can’t afford to tie ridiculous amounts of money into 7-8 player long term.

    If you aren’t willing to do that you either have to have position players ready to play over the next two years (which the team doesn’t outside of perhaps Jackson) or you have to “settle” for guys with defects like Dunn.

  120. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    “Pitching and Defense!!! What part of Cashman’s plan aren’t people following?”

    Apparently the defense…at least among those who clamor for Ramirez or Dunn.

  121. andrew December 17th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    how do the press conferences work? can the fans stand out side and maybe get a glimpse as they go in? has anyone here ever gone before? i know they dont let fans in

  122. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    There are too many fans operating under the assumption that we will sign Tex or Manny. We could easily just revisit the trade market and upgrade CF. I’m sure we can find a deal better than Melky for Cameron.

    We can still compete as a pitching-first team with our current rotation and bullpen.

  123. 86w183 December 17th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

    Fredo —

    Don’t be so obtuse! Dunn has a career OPS of .899 and his career OPS+ is 130. At age 29 it’s reasonable to think he will get better, especially in the Yankees lineup.

  124. gayle December 17th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    new info about MLB Network.I personally cannot wait for this channel to launch

    http://www.bizofbaseball.com/i.....;Itemid=82

  125. JD December 17th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. If you have good pitchers ,you should concentrate on good defense. It only makes those pitchers better and more confident. The Yanks will score enough runs. Long innings disrupt the groove of pitchers. IMO the Yanks need to upgrade the defense and go with the offense they have. Have faith in Matsui ,Damon, and Posada having a bigger impact next year. Damon,Gardener/Cameron/Melky, and Nady will be better than Manny,Damon,and Nady in the outfield. Even if they could move Matsui,Manny won’t DH. He thinks he’s a good fielder. How many runs do the Yanks really need to score? If they truly need a “big bat” they can trade for one next year.

  126. Corey McMahon December 17th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    Pete my thing with your post here is…..you say it takes 4 good starters, a decent bullpen and non worn out players to make it through the playoffs…..this is true I agree, but the Yankees already have this now do they not? So what’s the problem with getting a masher too? Of all the teams listed that scored more runs than NY in the AL, only one of those has a comparable rotation (Boston)……but a Manny behind Arod could balance it even more. What do I know though….im just a fan.

  127. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    CB is like our priest of this blog, and this would be his church. He does give some valuable information. :D

  128. Phil December 17th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    The Yanks are gonna add a bat, whether it’s Tex, Manny, Dunn or through a trade. They cannot afford a slow start in their new stadium, and now that they have great pitching again, they’re not gonna overtax it in the regular season. It doesn’t look like it’s gonna be Tex, but Manny wouldn’t be a surprise. He’s a significantly better hitter than Tex had can be had for shorter years. It’s kismet that he is also the one certifiable box office draw that’s out there and the Yanks just happen to have a TV network and a new stadium. The problem with the Yanks is not that they have a bunch of aging DH types, it’s that they don’t have a DH type who’s guaranteed to hit like a DH. Both Matsui and Po are coming back major mechanical surgeries, so whether it is Manny or Dunn or some other masher, they will add one to start the season.

  129. JOJO December 17th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    The fact that CC felt the need to check into a hotel under an alias and then when he realized that the press knew he was there, he felt the need to change hotels doesn’t make me feel good about this guy settling into NY. If he’s that scared of the NY press already, it can only get worse.

  130. Espresso December 17th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    Patience at the plate is good, but you want a guy like Dunn or Giambi putting the ball in play. They are supposed to drive in runs, not be table setters.

    Think about from the other side. If your pitcher walks Ichiro you probably swearing at the TV. If he walks Ryan Howard though you can live with that. Ichiro gets a single around 80% of the time he gets a hit. Someone like Howard is closer to 45% of his hits. That means that guys like Howard, Giambi (also in the mid 40s) and Dunn need to hit more and walk less.

  131. Vrsce December 17th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    Laura,
    You are entirely correct about Manny. He is a bad character.

    As a fan, yankee fan or otherwise, you want to have positive feekings about the team and its’ players. Winning is not worth having Manny on your team. Ask the Red Sox

  132. Jeremy December 17th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    Not only is Dunn not “useless” when he isn’t hitting home runs, because he still gets on base so much, but he HITS HOME RUNS. 40 a year, to be exact.

    If the Yankees want to add an all bat, limited field player, they have two apparent options: Manny and Dunn. Manny will be a superior hitter but will cost dramatically more. He is also 8 years older than Dunn. I have to go with Dunn here.

    Tex remains the dream option because he hits, fields, and is young. Of course that’s why Tex will cost more than Manny and Dunn combined.

  133. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    JD,

    I agree with your sentiment. I don’t think we need to do anything to the current roster unless there are some added long-term benefits.

  134. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    Fredo,

    Dunn has been hitting **exactly** 40 homers in the last 6 seasons. that’s more consistant than ARod hitting 50 homers in his odd years.

  135. Eric December 17th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    Great job Pete! Well written…

  136. gianthinker December 17th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    Will-Thank you! Thats what I’ve been saying. How can we justify not going after Tex when he’s going to land with our biggest rival and he would fill one of our needs? I love the Swisher pickup. I’m hoping he’s a Brosius type player for us but I’d rather move Damon back to CF (I hate Damon for the record) and play Swisher in LF with Matsui our DH and Teixeira at 1B than watch Swish at 1B and Tex in Boston for the next decade. He’s a switch hitting, power hitting, OBP guy with a gold glove and who is young and in the prime of his career. He is Giambi with skills and a better body. I really feel he’s the answer to our entire lineup and if he’s going to go to the Sox we at least have to make an offer to either drive up the cost or try to get him ourselves. It makes much more sense to add a corner OF by moving Swisher there instead of Manny or Matsui when we can add MARK TEIXEIRA to 1B!!! Spend the money, we have ANOTHER $30M COMING OFF THE BOOKS NEXT OFF-SEASON!

  137. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

    Bret the Hitman,

    when the heck did Jeff Hardy became a WWE champion? about time he won it, he’s been long overdue! :D

  138. Phil December 17th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

    Garret Anderson doesn’t get on base enough to offer any sort of meaningful upgrade to the Yanks.

  139. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    “Pitching and Defense!!! What part of Cashman’s plan aren’t people following? Yankees are focusing on winning by shutting down the opposing offense with a dominant rotation and lights out bullpen.”

    It’s pretty easy to see what Cashman is doing, but he’s signed enough players he shouldn’t have and not signed enough players that he should have that it’s fair to question what he’s doing. Just because Cashman thinks all he has to do is improves the pitching staff, that means he’s right? Was he right last year when we missed the playoffs? When did Cashman get Baseball God Status?

    The Yankees went 19-49 in games when they scored 3 runs or less. There is no arguing that the offense got worse and I don’t care how good Cashman gets the rotation, they aren’t going to win many games when they only score 3 runs. There is no reason to think the Yankees won’t have more games where they will score 3 runs or less with this offense. Just so you know, the Yankees would have needed to go have needed to go 76-18 in games where they scored more than 3 runs. That’s over .800 baseball.

  140. Tom December 17th, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    Bat Dunn and Swisher back to back. It would drive pitchers nuts.

  141. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    Brandon:

    Seeing a lot of pitches is sort of implicit in a guy who does little but strike out and walk.

  142. reacher December 17th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    Whether it’s Tex, Manny, Rocco or Knutty Fudge, something’s a-cooking.

  143. John December 17th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    What time is the press conference tomorrow so I can set my DVR to get it?

  144. JD December 17th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    Anually Tex won’t cost much more than Manny so that’s a wash. Tex would be great because he can feild his position. Manny does nothing for defense and unless he hits a homerun he’s just another slow old guy on the base paths. If the Yanks can get Tex great but Manny is useless. Let’s see some Godzilla love because he will show up next year. Manny you just never know.

  145. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    “Bat Dunn and Swisher back to back. It would drive pitchers nuts.”

    Tom, LOL so true. that would be one way of tiring the pitcher’s arm. 4.4 p/pa for Dunn, and 4.5 p/pa for Swisher.

  146. rconn23 December 17th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    If Baldelli’s medical situation has improved and he can be treated effectively, then the Yankees should make a beeline for him.

    He’s a better option to add to the lineup than Manny or someline like Dunn because he’s cheaper and younger and still has a ton of upside. He’s a better alternative than Cameron because he’s more athletic, faster. and at this stage a better defender.

    It’s going to take a three-year deal to get Manny. It just is. This talk of a 2-year deal or even a one-year contract is just pie in the sky.

    Imagine a lineup of with Cameron, Swisher and Dunn. That’s three players, with very low batting averages who would add almost 600 strikeouts a year to the lineup and whose .OBP is tied almost strictly to walks.

    They can’t put the bat on the ball enough. Simple as that.

    Batting average is an overrated statistic, that’s true. But in a lineup with only one true power threat, the lineup begs another guy who can hit for a higher average.

  147. Espresso December 17th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    Tom
    December 17th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
    “Bat Dunn and Swisher back to back. It would drive pitchers nuts.”

    Talk about not turning the lineup over. That’s almost 400 strike outs a year.

  148. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    *to get to 95 wins

  149. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    People have been crying for years that Giambi has become a homer or walk hitter and nothing more and are crying about Swisher being the same thing, although he doesn’t buy his gloves at Scrap-Iron-R-Us. Dunn’s not my preference, but…..

  150. gayle December 17th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

    John

    1PM

  151. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

    Espresso,

    So true. Nothing like carving a giant black hole in the middle of the batting lineup.

  152. Bobby December 17th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

    I think Manny would be fine. I think Pete and some of you are getting way too caught up in the team chemistry/dogging it arguments. To me, those are football/basketball mentality things and you just can’t apply them to baseball where you have 8 other guys performing on an individual basis.

    I mean, the Yanks had Rickey Henderson for 4 years. This is a guy who admitted he didn’t run to 1st base to conserve energy. Steinbrenner made public the dislike Piniellia had for Rickey, yet the best 4 year stretch of his career was with the Yanks and he arguably had just as much a case for the 85 MVP as Mattingly. And according to some poeple in the game, Rickey’s antics were on par with Manny’s, just without the “Manny being Manny” marketing scheme. And what did the team do? They took off and came the closest they ever did to the postseason in the 80s.

    Also, I’m skeptical at some of the Manny stories that have been floating around from Gammons, Bob Ryan and Schilling. We know all 3 are front office cheerleaders for the Sox. And even when he was “dogging it” he was still more valuable than about 98% of the players in the game. I stand by my thought that the Sox would’ve been better off keeping him for the rest of the year last year. And I think he’d be happy playing at home and on the Red Sox rival. I could be wrong, but if this is the offseason of taking risks, why not take the ultimate one? The potential reward outweighs the risk in my opinion.

  153. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:15 pm

    I mentioned last thread that even though prying Upton from ARiona is unlikely, it could be worth considering the potential scenarios (not ones that include Jeter, A-Rod, Cano, Posada, anyone in the rotation, Mo, Hughes) where guys are traded for him and we pay their salaries. Is it worth sending Damon & Kennedy plus one more player (Matsui … there are many possible combinations) and paying their salaries?

    Any guys entering free agency would of course have to be locked into new contracts or extensions, and OK with getting traded to Arizona of course. But it would still cost still would be less than Manny, and in terms of defense, usually only one of those guys would be in the OF at a time anyways.

    Mathematically, it would cost less than Manny. And you’d get a guy who can run, field, … everything … and at 21 has got great long-term potential. And it could cost less than Igawa, who we could end up paying to play for someone else’s AAA team.

  154. Jeremy December 17th, 2008 at 3:15 pm

    I agree that there is no good reason to sign Garret Anderson. He is 36 and has become yet another LF/DH type. Plus he is a below-average hitter (OPS+ of less than 100 in three of the last four years).

    The last thing this team, or any team, needs is an old LF/DH who is a below-average hitter. If we must get another LF/DH, we might as well sign Manny or Dunn, who can hit.

  155. gianthinker December 17th, 2008 at 3:16 pm

    JD-I hope you’re right and his knees okay because when healthy Godzilla has a deadly lefty bat. I love watching him hit the ball to the opposite side of the field with ease for doubles and easy RBI’s. Its a beautiful thing. Thats why I still want Teixeira because it wont affect Matsui’s DH status which Manny would. PLEASE SIGN TEIXEIRA CA$HMAN HE’S WORTH THE MONEY AND YOU’LL BLOCK HIM FROM BOSTON!!!

  156. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    Phil
    December 17th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
    Garret Anderson doesn’t get on base enough to offer any sort of meaningful upgrade to the Yanks.

    ————————————————————

    And yet, he produced only 5 less runs on 25 fewer homers than Dunn. Runs help win games….Bill James’ ridiculous formulas don’t.

  157. gianthinker December 17th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    rconn23-Agree on Baldelli but I’d wait to see where Teixeira goes because I wouldn’t want signing Baldelli to block Teixeira coming in. Damon cant be traded and even though I hate him (“BOSTON SPY!”) I’d deal with him in center for ONE SEASON to shift Swisher to LF and start Teixeira at 1B. SHOW TEX THE MONEY!!!

  158. Tom December 17th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    “Talk about not turning the lineup over. That’s almost 400 strike outs a year.”

    “So true. Nothing like carving a giant black hole in the middle of the batting lineup.”

    You mean like the phillies had last year, with Howard and Burrell?

  159. dave December 17th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

    It has been pressed upon us time and again that time honored saying that pitching wins championships. And i do agree – the teams that make the playoffs are the teams with the better pitching in the league for the most part. And I also agree with pete that manny could turn into a bitter old man in the third year of that potential contract (I cannot disagree more however on sheffield as he was tremendous in the wide majority of his time here and only since leaving after a year in which he was injured has the uncalled for sheff bashing begun from the yankee faithful and the media played a role- gary was a dominant all star putting up mvp like numbers for two of his three seasons in stripes yet people remain bitter about getting him i could only assume because we gave up vlad in the process).

    But i digress. Coming back to my point, based on pitching alone who wins the post season last year? The redsox with Dice – k putting up an era under 3 and lester having a breakout year with masterson coming in to help. How bout tampa? That team didnt just have a great year but the best pitching in the history of the franchise – Kazmir was his usual dominant self while shield continues his ascent to one of the best pitchers in the league. Garza finally showed his true talent with real in game stats. And of course, the angels – somehow they lost one of the best arms of 2007 in escobar and still managed to have one of the better rotations. The dodgers also had four starts with an era under 4. Point is, the playoffs were full of teams that could pitch. So lets take a look at whip by team in the league for a fair comparison of pitching in the organization that season:

    Last year, the dodgers are second, tampa is third, cubs fifth, angels sixth, chisox seventh, boston eighth, milwaukee ninth and phillies twelfth in team whip. Out of the 8 playoff teams – all of them were in the top 12 best pitching teams (by whip). Out of the 8, only phillie did not make it into the top 10. Yet, they somehow won it all when the playoffs came around. Still further, the jays who ranked 1 overall and arizona who ranked fourth didnt make it in at all and were about average or slightly above in winning percentage.

    So FIRST AND FOURTH IN PITCHING IN ALL OF BASEBALL AND COULDNT EVEN MAKE THE PLAYOFFS? well the jays injury to vernon wells forced the offensive to rely on alex rios for almost their entire offensive production for a good proportion of the season – in a year in which alex was supposed to surpass all expectations he regressed slightly when places with the burden. Overybay actually had a comeback year but the offense was hit hard by the loss of wells for a portion of the season and outside of those 3, there isnt much left in the tank. Arizona despite arguably the best duo in all of baseball last season and their new age version of rj and schillings could not keep the anemic offense from eventually getting the best of them and they also fell to almost 500 despite both haren and webb putting up tremendous numbers and winning 40 games for them combined. So clearly pitching itself does not get you into the playoffs all by itself.

    hOW ABOUT in the playoffs? As shown above, all 7 other teams were superior to the phillies in pitching last season. So how did the phillies win? It could be luck or that it was just their time. Maybe they got hot at the exact right moment. Or maybe it was just their balance of 3 of the leagues best young hitting talents, combined with a couple of grindings, a couple of solid innings eaters and a dominant ace. The fact that they dont have a star at every position but they have some of the best young talent on both sides of the ball tells you or at least tells me that when you win championships – you have to have some solid pitching but the team that has the best shot is the one with the most balance. Additionally, the jays scenario reminds us that it isnt all about pitching. The jays had by far the best pitching in baseball last year and it got them nowhere primarily because their offense was thin and extremely susceptible to failure in the event of an untimely or unlikely injury.

    So yea the yanks needed pitching and they got it – we have that side covered, Getting more will give us a negliigible edge over other teams. However, with swisher/cano in the third spot in the order or matsui in the fourth – a couple of unpredictable injuries to someone like arod or predictable to matsui/posada or some frustrating regressions to cano or swisher and we will be praying our pitching pulls our offense out of the disasaster of a lineup. In that event, it isnt a stetch to end up in the jays situation last year. 20 million for a fourth starter and an aging outfield or 20 mil for a solid bat to protect the lineup against combustion may be far more beneficial and add to the balance of the team.

  160. YF in enemy territory(Maine) December 17th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    I’ve listened to this Manny foolishness and had to respond. I believe if the RS hadn’t traded Manny when they did they wouldn’t have made the playoffs. He had just about destroyed any good atmosphere there was in the dugout. As far as him killing the RS when the Yankees play them, he quit on the RS many times when they played the Yankees. The RS fans were so sick of him and his antics they were more than happy to see him go. If the RS tried to hold him accountable is when he would really quit. Also it seems he was starting to take days off against hard throwing guys like Joba. The RS fans would love to see Manny on the Yankees cause they know the trouble he would cause in the clubhouse. Just say no to Manny!!!

  161. PittsburghYankeeFan December 17th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    Tex as a NYY:

    Any chance that you are “Lou Pinella” who was banned from the NYYFans.com board?

    Been to Lawry’s and the WWF lately?

  162. Phil December 17th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    GB7 and yet he was on a much better team than Dunn. I wonder if there’s a correlation there.

  163. gianthinker December 17th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    If we cant sign Teixeira I’d definitely be down to sign Baldelli though.

  164. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    Tom,

    When did the remainder of our roster outside of Dunn/Swisher become the Philadelphia Phillies? And it’s obvious how much they really value Burrell’s contributions since he’ll not be returning.

  165. G. Love December 17th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

    “Finally, I will leave you with this question: If signing Manny is such a wonderful idea, why has only one team made him an offer so far?”

    Pete, I think your question is a bit silly.

    I can think of a lot reasons; Boras & his process, the economy, the fact that the bidders for Tex are essentially (with the exception of the Dodgers) the bidders for Manny.

    There are only a handful of teams that can pay Manny and that handful is the smallest it’s been in years.

    The Mets are out even though they would normally be in for this kind of player.

    Boston is out for obvious reasons.

    Detroit can’t do it. SD is in fire sale mode. SF is crippled financially. Seattle is blowing it all up. Cleveland is in financial straits. What teams can afford this caliber player?

    Start with that list and then you realize why he isn’t flooded with offers.

    It pretty much leaves the Yankees, Dodgers and Angels as the teams that can pay Manny what he’s worth on the open market.

    The Dodgers clearly have spending-phobia when it comes to long term deals so that’s why re-signing Manny hasn’t happened quickly. They still may, but Boras and Tex will have a lot to do with where Manny goes.

    It’s in Boras’ best interest to drive Tex to Boston so Anaheim opens up for Manny in a big way and they can bid against the Yankees and the Dodgers.

    If Tex goes to Boston, then the Yanks and Angels will duke it out for Manny and he’ll end up with a 3 year big bucks deal.

    If Tex goes to Anaheim or the Yankees, Manny’s market is crushed down to whichever team out of Anaheim and the Yanks doesn’t get Tex.

    Manny has baggage, but he’s still going to get a deal at 20 million plus when all is said and done. It just so happens that at this point in time only a few teams in baseball can even consider that expenditure.

  166. Espresso December 17th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

    It should come as no surprise based on my posting but favorite Yankee and therefore favorite player of all time is Joltin’ Joe. Its fun to look at the historical stats. He struck out 13 times in the 1941 season. That’s while getting 193 hits, 30 HR, 43 doubles, 11 triples. A .440 OBP with .643 OPS and a .357 BA. I know he is one of the all time greats, but that is what a complete hitter is. Arod is one, Pujols is one, Manny is one (even if he is a tool and a butcher in the field).

    I think Tex is also a complete hitter if not to the standards set by those above.

  167. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    The idea of signing Tex shifts Damon to CF. That royally stinks. Tex is set to earn 22-28 million per. He’s not a superstar. He’s a co-star therefore will be grossly overpaid. I hope the Yankees pass.

  168. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    “I mentioned last thread that even though prying Upton from ARiona is unlikely, it could be worth considering the potential scenarios (not ones that include Jeter, A-Rod, Cano, Posada, anyone in the rotation, Mo, Hughes) where guys are traded for him and we pay their salaries.”

    So you propose that some of the less desireable Yankees be moved to Arizona for a top flight MLB ready prospect??? That’s beyond ludicrous. Upton gets less than $1M per season and is under control for years. Why on earth would they want the Yanks garbage, in the spirit of saving less than a million bucks???

  169. CB December 17th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    “the Yanks had an unusual reaosn last year with RSIP and that isn’t likely to repeat.”

    It would be unusual but that’s definitely not going to get any better by adding Adam Dunn to the line up.

    Dunn is an awful situational player. Year in and year out he hits .240 with RISP. That’s awful.

    And I don’t want to hear about his OPS with RISP or his OBP. OPS with RISP is a largely inappropriate stat to use.

    If there’s a guy on 2nd or 3rd with < 2 outs you don’t want a walk and you certainly don’t want a strikeout.

    You want a hit. And that’s what the team couldn’t do last year.

    Dunn will contribute in certain ways at the plate but if they replace Matsui by Dunn they will be a WORSE team with RISP. Not a little worse. Much worse.

    I wasn’t dead set advocating Dunn. He does certain things well but is extremely limited.

    It depends on the price and what other moves the team makes.

    Again there is a very good argument to make that the yankees would be stupid to settle for Dunn when Tex is out there given there resources.

    Money may be no real limit to the yankees – but roster spots are. You can only have 25.

    So to give one of those scarce spots to Dunn while Tex is available from this perspective is a very bad move.

    It’s a very complex off season because there are so many moving parts. I don’t know how definitive you can be over what the “right” move to make is. You never can be but it’s particularly true this off season given the players available, the market and the economy.

    I don’t think there are many slam dunk decisions – it’s really a careful weighing of benefits, costs and risks.

    Dunn exemplifies that very well. Large pluses and large minuses.

  170. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

    Damon, Nady & Kennedy, then sign Baldelli?

    Just trying to come up with something other than but Manny that hasn’t been thunk of … Manny, Cameron, Dunn … all come with too many negatives. Baldelli is a risk, but could be a good risk if doctors are right.

  171. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    Just looking for ideas, Fredo. To me, Manny & Dunn are pretty ridiculous.

  172. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    Phil
    December 17th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
    GB7 and yet he was on a much better team than Dunn. I wonder if there’s a correlation there.

    ————————————————————

    Anderson has been a high average run producer all of is career. also, although he’s not great in the outfield, he’s miles ahead of Dunn and Ramirez because he’lcatch everying he gets to. He’s cheaper for fewer years than the others.

  173. Peter Rabbit December 17th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    Pete Abe, don’t you think it’s the perfect time to put up a new website poll? To get Manny, or not to get Manny— that is the question!

  174. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    Whatever we send we send for free. Boston paid Manny to play for LA, Texas paid 60% of A-Rod’s $ for him to play here.

  175. Braintrust December 17th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    The problem is with Arod as usual. This team is built around a big slugger in the middle of the order. Sure you can fill out the 6-10 spots with Swisher, Posada, Nady, Gardner, Matsui, etc. But you need that hitter behind Arod to keep opposng pitcher’s honest.

  176. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    I hear you Ansky, but there would be less than zero incentive for Arizona or any other team to consider such aan idea.

  177. gianthinker December 17th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    Bret the Hitman-Love the name! Not the comment, but you’re name rocks!

  178. Mike R December 17th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    Tarheelyank said:

    “I can’t believe I am actually defending Manny, But here goes.

    We all know he’s a flake of the highest order. That’s not a problem. The question is- is he a “cancer”? I for one am not going to buy into the Boston propaganda machine. Led by Baghdad Bob Gammons. The fact is HE WAS NOT HAPPY IN BOSTON.
    “The Red Sox don’t deserve a player like me. During my years here I’ve seen how they have mistreated other great players when they didn’t want them to try to turn the fans against them.
    “The Red Sox did the same with guys like Nomar Garciaparra and Pedro Martinez, and now they do the same with me. Their goal is to paint me as the bad guy. I love Boston fans, but the Red Sox don’t deserve me. I’m not talking about money. Mental peace has no price and I don’t have peace here.”
    Or how about Pedro-
    The three-time Cy Young Award winner said his new club, the New York Mets “have shown more respect in days than Boston did in seven years …”
    I don’t remember any talk of him being a cancer in Cleveland. He certainly wasn’t in LA. Maybe it’s just the Sox front office and the city of Boston that he hates. They can annoy the hell out of me. Now, I don’t advocate quitting on your team. That’s not the right way. But remember he’s a flake so maybe that’s his way of dealing with a situation he hates. A Manny-Arod duo would be something to see.
    Having said all that I still think Tex fills our needs a lot better then Manny.”

    I couldn’t agree with you more.

  179. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    “Also, I’m skeptical at some of the Manny stories that have been floating around from Gammons, Bob Ryan and Schilling.”

    Do you doubt the story of him assaulting the BOS ticket guy, who was over 60 years old? If not, does this sound like someone who should be playing for the Yankees? He doesn’t get what he wants so he attacks someone old enough to be his father. He should have been arrested. Instead, BOS looks the other way and probably pays the guy not to press charges.

    Why are we even discussing this fool?

  180. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    Giambi was a productive hitter. The reason people complain about him is because he was signed after an MVP year and then it came out that he took PEDs and went from an MVP player to what he was, a guy similar to Dunn getting paid like an MVP.

  181. Gary December 17th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    The stealth Cashman must have some irons in the fire. Why else is it taking the Cameron deal so long to finalize?
    Things have been far too quiet with still some issues to address.
    I can’t be convinced that Cashman hasn’t had daily dialogue with Scott Boras with either Teixeira or Manny at the forefront. Everything else is on the back burner.

  182. Jeremy December 17th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    “And yet, he produced only 5 less runs on 25 fewer homers than Dunn. Runs help win games….Bill James’ ridiculous formulas don’t.”

    But homers are the best way to score runs, unless I’m missing something. Plus, Dunn’s runs scored and RBI totals are no less respectable than Anderson’s.

    The big difference between the two is that Dunn is a very reliable player who gets on base at a 38% clip and cranks out 40 home runs a year, while Anderson is a declining player who doesn’t get on base, doesn’t hit for power, and his generally below-average offensively.

    Not sure where the antipathy toward Bill James comes from. No one here is discussing anything remotely related to win shares or any other James stat. You don’t need anything that complex to know that Dunn is a vastly better player than Anderson at this point in time.

  183. Arliss December 17th, 2008 at 3:32 pm

    The answer to your question is simple. A player of his ability and talent can only be afforded by a handful of teams and 3 of that small handful have made hints that they are interested (Angels, Yanks, LAD).

    As for having 4 goos starters and a good pen, we have those things and signing manny doesnt change that fact. Adding runs to your offense doesnt hurt regardless of how good your pitching is either.

    For how terrible a guy Manny is, I could have sworn he won two rings for the blohards of Boston and only became a villain when he realized how much he hated them all and wanted more money.

  184. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    “Whatever we send we send for free. Boston paid Manny to play for LA, Texas paid 60% of A-Rod’s $ for him to play here.”

    Ramirez was less than $7M for the last two months and the Rangers did not come within light years of paying 60% of Rodriguez’s salary.

  185. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    “The problem is with Arod as usual. This team is built around a big slugger in the middle of the order. Sure you can fill out the 6-10 spots with Swisher, Posada, Nady, Gardner, Matsui, etc. But you need that hitter behind Arod to keep opposng pitcher’s honest.”

    Every team is built around the big slugger in the middle (or at least they should be). It’s not A-Rod’s fault that he’s a super stud. It’s the Yankees job to get players that compliment A-Rod and force the pitcher to give him some pitches to hit.

  186. Phil December 17th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    GB7, he’s been a below league average hitter lately. He’s not what we need. We need one more reliable bat for the 3,4,or 5 spot. He ain’t it.

  187. Buck December 17th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    Okay, let me add to the controversary. I, for one, think we should get Manny. We need Manny’s bat and if there’s going to be conflict between Manny and Joe – get rid of Girardi!Manny is more important.

  188. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY!" December 17th, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    I’m with Pete, Ellen, Joe from Long Island, Brian the Sox fan, and everyone else who believes that cautions flags are there for a reason and that Manny has finally worn out his maor league welcome. Or perhaps you think that teams are desperate for a player who dictates when and where he’s going to play?

    Wouldn’t it just be a RIOT if Manny decided he didn’t feel like playing in the world series? (he’s already gone on record as saying it’s not that big a deal if you don’t win the world series).

    I think people who have the ability to do it need to get beyond the term “clubhouse cancer” and think about Manny’s antics when he is on the field. Urinating in the outfield behind the scoreboard, refusing to hustle to first base, laughing when he misses balls in the outfield, styling after hitting home runs. That’s to name a few. If you think all of that will play in the Bronx – and believe me Manny isn ‘t going to be other than who he is no matter where he plays – then maybe he is the player that you want.

    Pete, I believe, is right about questioning why nobody is making a play for Manny. If it was because of anything other than the shine being off the apple, there would at least be offers of some kind. That isn’t even happening!

  189. Mike R December 17th, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    “Finally, I will leave you with this question: If signing Manny is such a wonderful idea, why has only one team made him an offer so far?”

    That seems like a pretty silly comment to make.

    AJ Burnett got 2 offers…
    CC got 3 offers…
    Abreu has 0 offers…
    Giambi has 0 offers…

    The lack of offers is because of the high price tag. Teams cant afford to spend $25 mil a year on a bat.

  190. Drive 4-5 December 17th, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    The World Champion Phillies, playing in a league where the pitcher hits, scored 10 more runs than the Yankees did last year. But it’s not the number of runs scored that matters. It’s consistency that counts.

    The best way to be consistent is to take adavantage of situations with runners in scoring position. That’s where the Yankees failed miserably last year.

    This season the Yanks pitching should allow fewer runs. The only way to take advantage of that is if they take care of business when scoring opprtunities arise. The yankees were one of the worst teams in baseball last year with RISP. It matters not a lick how many runs they scored because they would go for stretches of games scoring only 3 a game and then they’d explode for 8 or 10.

    This lineup sets up to be worse,not better. For all his faults Abreu was still one of the best on the team with RISP and obp. At least teams had to pay attention with A Rod on deck.

    If Matsui and Posada can return from their injuries at their age to the forces they were 3 years ago the offense would be ok. If not,the Yanks will lose a lot of games 3-2 and 4-3. This team needed Teixeira but he aint coming.IMO they made a huge mistake not pursuing the best player to hit free agency since Manny and A Rod 8 years ago.

    I’ll make one prediction. AJ Burnett will spend more time on the DL than Mark Teixeira will over the life of their contracts.

  191. gianthinker December 17th, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    Braintrust-Exactly. Thats what Arod/Giambi was suppose to be but G pooped out on us. Arod needs another BIG bat to protect him and MAKE the pitchers through him heat over the plate. Thats why as much as I hate Manny and think he’s a bad idea he’s PERFECT for our lineup. I’d rather have Arod/Teixeira though.

    Bret the Hitman-I admit whole heartedly that Damon is a bad CFer. His arm is…please.. Anyway, I WOULD deal with him in CF to get Teixeira. Its only for one year. Swisher would be an upgrade in LF over Damon and Nady is better than Abreu in RF so he’d have help on both sides more than he did before. Swisher can play CF but he’s ranked like 3rd to last CF or something horrible like that and more importantly he HATES IT! But even a year with him in CF would be fine. Its just one season. Dealing with Damon or whoever in CF for one season would be well worth it to add Teixeira to our lineup for the next decade IMO.

  192. Ogie Oglethorpe December 17th, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    Pete,

    You are an island of sanity amidst a sea of so-called experts.

  193. Jeremy December 17th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

    One more thing about Anderson. If we get him, we run into the same problem we’d have with Manny or Dunn: nowhere to put him. We’d have to get rid of Matsui somehow to make Anderson our DH, which would be pointless because we’d have a DH who is a below-average hitter. Otherwise we’d have to move Damon to CF and suffer all the problems that brings, and then we’d have a LF who is a below-average hitter. Neither option makes sense.

    These headaches might be worth it if we get Manny or Dunn because they can hit so well. They’re not worth it for Anderson, who is nothing special as a hitter anymore.

  194. reacher December 17th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

    The Yankees due to the complexity of their structure and operations must have an extremely complex business model.

    What they can and cannot do must take into account a myriad of factors including the cost of the new stadium (including its impact upon the MLB luxury tax, the federal and state income tax consequences to name the obvious), advertising revenues and, revenues from YES, from both the customer and ownership interest standpoint, to touch on the obvious. Whether they are above or below the “amount coming off the books” is one factor among many, and certainly not the most significant.

    The media, as well as virtually all of us who post, certainly lack the knowledge of the underlying facts to make any intelligent assessment of what makes and doesn’t make financial sense to undertake, against the backdrop of the current and projected economic times. I have yet to read anything meaningful which purports to touch on this issue with any level of depth. Those who write simply are not qualified to make this assessment even if they were privy to substantially all of the relevant facts, which they are not.

  195. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

    “For how terrible a guy Manny is, I could have sworn he won two rings for the blowhards of Boston and only became a villain when he realized how much he hated them all and wanted more money.”

    BOS gets no sympathy for me. They turned a blind eye to Manny’s antics when it suited them. Then, when it got out of hand, they wanted people to feel sorry for them. What he did towards the end was 100% wrong and inexcusable, but BOS is not the victim in this at all. They helped create the monster. They got what they deserved.

  196. bru December 17th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

    MJ

    toronto was 20th in runs scored and 22nd in rbi.

    they were not on the top 8.

  197. Espresso December 17th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

    Article on Baldelli’s disease not being as bead as had been thought.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....;fext=.jsp

  198. JD December 17th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

    Manny needs to stay in Hollywood where he can be pampered and labeled a hero. That won’t happen on the Yankees. He’s a one trick pony and there are better options ,if not now then next year before the deadline. This talk of the Yankees needing to fly out of the gates is ridiculous. The games will still sell out and the end result is all that matters. Why tie your hands with more big contracts? Manny for three years or even two at 22mill+ is a big contract.

  199. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

    Fredo … At first I was thinking everything has a price, so why not use cold hard cash. Everyone’ talking about anywhere between $50-100M to Manny to play here for 2-4 years, and he can’t even play the field. I’m just trying to think of ways to pay a fraction of that to Arizona (maybe even a big fraction of it) to get someone who’s going to be a stud for a long time. In the beginning, he’ll already be as good as Cameron anyways. As soon as Manny becomes Manny instead of Motivated, this could start to sound like it was a good idea. I don’t even want to talk about Dunn.

  200. Tint December 17th, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    I can’t believe you compared Manny Ramirez to Sheffield.

    We’re talking about the scariest RH hitter to ever live. Sheffield was a solid/very above average hitter. But he’s not Manny.

    Manny hits in all types of situations and, most importantly, EVERY month. You can rely on him getting big hits in October just as much as you can in Spring Training.

    Mentioning him and Sheffield in the same breath is almost a stretch in itself.

  201. Will December 17th, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    Listening to the Michael Kay show on 1050espn (great radio station by the way, love Max and Michael)…

    and what do you know? Michael thinks Texeira is a much better fit for the yankees than Manny, and the only reason he can come up with that the yankees would choose Manny over Texeira are the EXACT SAME REASONS that i listed in my previous post.

    1. Jeter
    2. Posada

    Thats all there is to it. We can’t sign texeira because we already have a poor defensive SS and C and we’re gonna have to pay the price for it.

  202. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    Did Reacher just toss his 2008 Word of the Day Calendar in the trash???

  203. E-Man December 17th, 2008 at 3:40 pm

    “Finally, I will leave you with this question: If signing Manny is such a wonderful idea, why has only one team made him an offer so far?”

    Brilliant question.

    In order to sign someone we should have the approval of other teams in terms of interest because that is the only way to define a players “worth”.

    What were those “Baseball people” thinking about when they signed AJ Burnett? Didn’t they know that only 1 other team made him a contract offer? That must have been the doing of the ratings department! We all know how much more ratings AJ will draw!

    If these people were smart we’d have Ian Kennedy (The next Tom Glavine btw – just look at their first 60 innings), Phil Hughes, Joba, Wang and Someone else under 25 because age means everying. For position players, Anyone over 30 gets released and we’ll just start the clippers because Younger means better just look at the Rays.

  204. Braintrust December 17th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

    “Every team is built around the big slugger in the middle (or at least they should be). ”

    Our championship teams from 96 through 2000, were not built around a Big slugger. Tino hit 44 Hr’s in 97 (The year they failed to advance of course), but he was by no means a big home run hitter. We had a balanced lineup of guys who hit 20-25 homeruns.

  205. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

    “Bret the Hitman-I admit whole heartedly that Damon is a bad CFer. His arm is…please.. Anyway, I WOULD deal with him in CF to get Teixeira.”

    Whoa, that’s a huge sacrifice there. I think that you need to get your hands on some footage of Damon throwing the ball home before you hang your hat on this statement.

    I can’t remember what game it was, but he was in CF and threw a ball in trying to stop the winning run. I swear to God, it bounced 5 times before it even got to Jeter. You want 162 games of that?

  206. KennyH123 December 17th, 2008 at 3:42 pm

    The Phillies play in an absolute bandbox. You cannot compare it to Yankee Stadium. Of course the Phillies scored more runs. They’re a great team in a tiny park. Runs galore.

  207. Espresso December 17th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    I want Baldelli in CF.

  208. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    “At first I was thinking everything has a price”

    Everything does. In the case of Justin Upton, the price would be young, highly talented, cheap players, not the right to have players on the back nine of their careers playing for you on the Yankees’ dime.

    Again, what would Arizona get from something like that? The only financial savings they’d recognize is the $750M or so they would not be paying Upton.

  209. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    By the way I’m sure Manny’s a great guy to hang out with outside baseball. But the while ball of confusion, the laying down on his team, & the non-existent defense that he’d bring to the Yankees just doesn’t work for me. Especially at his price and his age. That is the ridiculous part of it.

    And again, I don’t even want to talk about Dunn.

  210. TurnTwo December 17th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    what i want to know is why the Yankees cant have a great pitching staff AND a middle of the lineup that mashes.

    people say pitching is what wins, and i think most would agree…

    so Cashman goes out and imports the two best arms on the FA market. done and done.

    but its like now that we’ve improved the pitching, everyone has an allergy to improving the offense.

    i just dont get it.

    youve got one of the top 3 hitters of our generation sitting there, he wont cost the organization any prospects, and all he costs is money and the DH slot.

    but you’d think the guy comitted murder and was a proven steroid user all rolled into one the way people react to his name.

  211. KennyH123 December 17th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    Other clubs, besides Philly, who outscored the Yankees… Boston, Texas, Chicago (NL)… all bandboxes.

    You have to understand ballpark differentials when talking about runs scored.

  212. Drive 4-5 December 17th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    “Manny hits in all types of situations and, most importantly, EVERY month.”

    How did Manny hit for the Red Sox last July? It’s hard to hit when your spending all your energy working on getting thrown off the team.

    Manny Ramirez is a great hitter. One of the best ever. But his teams have won the World Series twice in 16 years. He guarantees nothing but controversy.

  213. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    Interesting article on Sidney Ponson’s arbitration hearing against the Orioles and Peter Angelos from 3 years ago when they cut him withut pay for what they conidered “bhavior detrimental to the team”. At stake is 11 mil from Angelos.

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/sp.....852.column

  214. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    Cold hard cash — paid to the Arizona Diamondbacks — they might recognize that.

  215. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    “The Phillies play in an absolute bandbox. You cannot compare it to Yankee Stadium.”

    So does Adam Dunn, but some of the faithful have been clamoring for him today.

  216. Phil December 17th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    Kat O’Brien says the Cameron deal is officially off.

  217. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 3:47 pm

    Correction: ***without pay for what they considered “behavior detrimental to the team”***

  218. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:47 pm

    Enough of it, that is.

  219. Jeff NJ December 17th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    This just in, BABE RUTH WAS A MEMBER OF THE RED SOX before signing with the Yankees.

  220. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    “but you’d think the guy comitted murder and was a proven steroid user all rolled into one the way people react to his name.”

    Manny may not have ever used steroids, but to me signing him would be no different than signing Bonds. Both come with baggage that can’t be overcome.

  221. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    “Cold hard cash—paid to the Arizona Diamondbacks—they might recognize that.”

    So you propose the Yankees pay the salary of the players they’ve sent to Arizona PLUS give them a significant amount of cash to boot?

    Beyond the fact that it would never be approved by MLB, why would that make sense for the Yankees?

  222. JD December 17th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    Will,

    There you have it. Tex blocks a position the Yanks need to leave open long term and Manny just adds more bad defense to a team already lacking in defense. Stay pat or get a center fielder and let’s see what this team can do. Why get either unless Jeter can go to the outfield and Posada DH/back-up catcher? Or maybe you want to see Manny layin terds in left.

  223. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

    Babe Ruth didn’t ‘sign with’ the Yankees … the Yankees bought his contract with cold hard cash.

  224. CB December 17th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

    “The only way to take advantage of that is if they take care of business when scoring opprtunities arise.”

    Not true. You can simply create more opportunities and continue taking advantage of them at the same rate.

    That’s the part that people who don’t appreciate how important getting on base to begin with tend to underestimate.

    Batting Average with RISP is simply a rate. It tells you nothing about the total number of opportunities that arise.

    If you think of Batting Average with RISP as a marker of being “clutch” you can easily have a team that is very clutch and scores very few runs.

    This is one of the main reasons why year in and out the Angels offense stinks even though they hit ok with RISP. Sure they take advantage of opportunities when they come up. But they just never create that many opportunities to begin with.

    Vladamir Guerrero hit .321 with RISP. Garrett Anderson .338. Teixeira .367. Kotchman .298.

    Those numbers blow away what the middle of yankee order did last year with RISP.

    Yet magically the yankees were 10th in runs scored in baseball last season and Angels were 15th despite being much less “clutch” than the angels.

  225. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

    “Correction: without pay for what they considered “behavior detrimental to the team””

    My money’s on the crazy Aruban.

  226. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    “Kat O’Brien says the Cameron deal is officially off.”

    Cashman must had found out about Baldelli.

  227. Drive 4-5 December 17th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    “The Phillies play in an absolute bandbox. You cannot compare it to Yankee Stadium.”

    True,they do play in a bandbox. But they scored only 25 more runs on the road than they did at home (412 vs 387).

    They also were better with RISP than the Yankees both home and on the road.

  228. TurnTwo December 17th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    “Both come with baggage that can’t be overcome.”

    total hogwash.

  229. Drive 4-5 December 17th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    ‘But they scored only 25 more runs on the road than they did at home (412 vs 387).’

    Meant to say the opposite. Sorry.

  230. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    Nope – instead, Fredo. First I was thinking cash. Then I was thinking players. Then I posted the idea. Now I like cash instead. They can do what they want with it instead of playing two veterans on someone else’s dime.

  231. MJ December 17th, 2008 at 3:53 pm

    Bru:

    I was using the AL only, to stay consistent with Pete’s post.

  232. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:53 pm

    A ‘posting fee’ … only if MLB would approve it of course.

    Likely not.

  233. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    “total hogwash.”

    Says you. :P

  234. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    “The idea of signing Tex shifts Damon to CF. That royally stinks. Tex is set to earn 22-28 million per. He’s not a superstar. He’s a co-star therefore will be grossly overpaid. I hope the Yankees pass.”

    Damon in CF isn’t that bad. Swisher played a good amount in CF last year too. Nady has played CF too. If none of them could cut it, Nady goes to the bench or is traded and you’re replacing Nady’s bat with Teixeira. Either way it’s a big improvement.

    I hope Cashman has a better reason to stay away from Teixeira than wanting to keep first base open for Jeter or Posada. Posada has constantly said he does not want to play first base and after this season the DH spot will be open. Jeter should go to a corner outfield spot. He’s got a strong arm and has always been good at tracking down fly balls. Jeter is 6 years older than Teixeira and doesn’t have the bat to take up the 1st base spot. Posada is gone in 2 years. This can not be the reason.

  235. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    Ok, I’ll play along with the Tex enthusiasts. If the Yankees sign Teixiera, then 2010 looks like this:

    Derek Jeter-ss
    Robinson Cano-2b
    Alex Rodriguez-3b
    Mark Teixeira-1b
    Xavier Nady-rf
    Jorge Posada-dh
    Nick Swisher-lf
    Austin Jackson-cf
    ???-c

    Is that not the slowest most unathletic lineup you’ve ever seen in your life especially considering the cost and the long term limitations?

    Now you have 5 ginormous unmovable contracts: Arod, Teixeira, Posada, Jeter, Burnett and Sabathia.

    Together they could cost up to 132 million dollars: Arod (32), Tex (22-28), Posada (13), Jeter (20), Burnett (16) and Sabathia (23).

    5 players. 132 million dollars. I guess you just cross your fingers and hope they don’t all catch a cold in a short 5 game serious because you only have 68 million dollars for the remaing 20 spots on the roster.

    The rest of the team would need to earn 3.4 million on average to keep you under 200 million.

    How do you address the serious imbalance and the resulting lack of depth/insurance that such a huge commitment to such a small group will cause?

  236. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

    Just cash.
    Hey, it’d be cheaper than Manny.

  237. CB December 17th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

    “So does Adam Dunn, but some of the faithful have been clamoring for him today.”

    He does play in a band box. But he doesn’t have any kind of significant split in his home vs. road production. Not any more than usual.

    .929 home OPS and .871 road ops. Slugging % .540 home vs. .474 road.

    Nearly all hitters outside of those playing in pitchers parks hit better at home.

    Dunn plays in a small park but that’s not the major factor in his power or production.

  238. Phil December 17th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

    The Yanks are clearly onto something else.

  239. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:56 pm

    “Likely not.”

    Definitely not.

  240. Wave Your Hat December 17th, 2008 at 3:56 pm

    Hitting with RISP is basically random within the context of how well you hit in the first place.

    The Yanks’ poor performance with RISP last year actually makes me feel better about the Yankees’ run scoring chances in 2009. Simple regression to the mean will produce more runs.

    Paying for players because they hit well with RISP the year before (when compared to their overall batting performance) is a pretty sure method of overpaying for players.

    Get good players and let batting with RISP take care of itself.

  241. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 3:56 pm

    Correction: 6 contracts 132 mil per.

  242. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

    We could always throw A-Rod’s future ex wife in there …. she’s worth how much now? Technically she’s still ‘under contract’ too. :)

  243. Fredo Corleone December 17th, 2008 at 3:59 pm

    “Damon in CF isn’t that bad. Swisher played a good amount in CF last year too. Nady has played CF too”

    They’d be fine if the league let all three of ‘em play CF at once.

  244. TurnTwo December 17th, 2008 at 3:59 pm

    “Correction: 6 contracts 132 mil per.”

    they wouldnt have given the contracts if they cant afford it, or afford the fix if they need it.

    dont let anyone try and convince you otherwise.

  245. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 4:02 pm

    Turn Two,

    I’m not saying they can’t afford it. I’m saying that in order to keep the payroll below 200 million, the remaining 20 players on the roster would need to earn somewhere in the ballpark of 3-4 million dollars. If your 5-6 studs have a bad 2-3 games in the ALDS, you’re finished. You’ve limited yourself to 5-6 weapons rather than 25. With balance comes a wider variety of skill sets and multiple paths to victory.

  246. Beanietown December 17th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

    The Steinbrenners purchased a broken down, dilapidated franchise from CBS for $10 million in the early 70′s.

    They turned it into the most valuable sports franchise in the western hemisphere.

    Basic rule: Never listen to a fat guy on how to lose weight. Never listen to a poor person on how to invest your money.

    Having said that, I don’t listen to guys that have car payments and mortgages about which players the Yankees should or should not sign.

    Have the folks posting on this blog work at Burger King and live at home with their parents.

  247. SJ44 December 17th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

    If the Cameron deal is officially off, then the Yankees are involved in something else.

    It could just be settling on Pettitte’s deal before re-addressing CF. Or, it could be another position player deal.

    Its got to be something though.

    Cameron’s agent was told the deal was done a few days ago.

    If something changed, its a baseball decision and not a money decision. The money decision was settled a few days ago.

  248. CB December 17th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

    “They also were better with RISP than the Yankees both home and on the road.”

    And the Angels were much better hitting with RISP than the Yankees yet scored fewer runs.

  249. Brad December 17th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

    All the so-called Manny issues aside, if this were 2-3 years ago, Teixeira, Manny and all the top echelon free agents would have been signed shortly after Thanksgiving Day. Only the best of the bottom feeders like Pittsburgh and a few other teams would not have been in on the action.
    The economy has in fact been a significant factor. Ask Boston. Even if they manage to sign Teixeira, they’re nervous about having the Lugo and Lowell contracts hanging around with no takers in sight.

  250. StevenM47 December 17th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

    I dont care what anyone says….this team cannot win a title with the lineup it has right now. They will lose 1-0, 2-1, 3-2 type games against team that a) also have very good pitching and b) have more offense.

  251. Wave Your Hat December 17th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    I’m sorry. Who says we have to leave first base open for Posada or Jeter?

    If Posada has to play 1B, we are in deep trouble because we have no catcher to replace him, and getting one anywhere near as good will be pretty darn hard. And at 1B, Posada’s relative advantage as a hitter will be much less than at catcher. Saving the spot for him is pointless.

    Saving 1B for Jeter makes no sense at all to me. I haven’t looked it up, and no doubt someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I doubt whether his 2008 numbers would even be league average at first base. What will his numbers be like in 2011?

    Not to mention all the wasted opportunity cost holding the spot open until Jeter or Posada do move there, if ever.

  252. Mr. Exceptional December 17th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    Cashman has proven this winter why he’s the GM and none of us our.

    I think he’s got his plans in place and they’re slowly unfolding (nicely I might add).

  253. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    Beanietown,

    Even a burger flipper can figure out that every business has a budget that comes with limitations and a roster that requires addressing a wide variety of skill sets.

  254. Mr. Exceptional December 17th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    Are I meant…ugh, long day.

  255. Riggity December 17th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    Baldelli, Baldelli & Baldelli

  256. Aaron December 17th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

    OK..OK..OK

    Get this through your heads Yankees will not sign Mark Texiera. I want him as well but an 8 year deal when we have Jeter, Posada, Montrero who will all be good options at first in a couple years. Manny makes more sence on a two or three year deal.

  257. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 4:08 pm

    We must be some very talented people. According to one poster, we are capable of flipping burgers while typing on the PC at the same time. I didn’t know that BK had Internet connections set up near their fryers. You learn something new every day.

  258. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 4:09 pm

    “Get this through your heads Yankees will not sign Mark Texiera.”

    Is that an order? Because I don’t take orders from anyone other than my manager at Burger King.

  259. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 17th, 2008 at 4:10 pm

    “We could always throw A-Rod’s future ex wife in there …. she’s worth how much now? Technically she’s still ‘under contract’ too. ”

    His next $$wife$$ is in a crisis w/ Marc Anthony :lol:

    j/k !

  260. CB December 17th, 2008 at 4:10 pm

    “If the Cameron deal is officially off, then the Yankees are involved in something else.”

    Any chance they are just trying to create some uncertainty surrounding their bidding on Tex? Giving off the impression that they might get involved more seriously to drive up the price?

    It could be pettite. Could be them looking longer term to picking up a hitter later. Too early for anything to be going on with Manny.

    But it does seem like something is going on.

  261. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 4:11 pm

    That guy was clearly a BK manager trying to recruit talent.

  262. dave December 17th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

    Frankly, I am a little dubious of this whole rocco baldelli misdiagnosis. For one, channelopathy is an extremely nondescriptive term that can mean one of many, many different disorder both both congenital or acquired. Further, i FIND it all too convenient that this misdiagnosis report came out in the midst of rocco’s free agency off season. Whats more, the doctors or moreover some reporter is claiming that the physicians are saying that this disorder that he has had all along is “very treatable and non-progressive.” The original diagnosis was for mitochondrial myopathy which is another extremely vague term for a wide class of disorders which are all transmitted down by the mother. Another words, the first disorder he likely would have had his whole life and the second depends on the type of channelopathy. Further, the mitochondrial myopathy disorders present at childhood and have extremely serious disorders associated with them. For a doctor to now say at 27 that the diagnosis was wrong all along is strange – for a doctor to say that what was original thought to be mitochondrial myopathy is now a treatable and non-progressive condition is even less likely.

    Basically, most all mitochondrial myopathys are serious and known from childhood, impact multiple body systems particularly extreme energy requiring systems such as the brain and muscle . Therefore, patients with this disease get tired extremely easily and there is a constant buildup of lactic acid due to the inefficient mitochondria in respiration and energy production. Also, constant headaches to the point of extreme pin point pain and muscle spasms occur. Does this sound like something that would be misdiagnosed for the first 27 years of life – doubtful as these effects are recurring, painful and sometimes can interfere with daily life.

    Further baldelli has been on and off the dl his entire career – mitochondrial myopathy certainly explained why. Otherwise, with a much less serious and more treatable condition it is likely baldelli is just very injury prone or that the channelopathy has caused some of the detrimental effects. Either way, i would not even take a flyer out on baldelli. I dont see him playing a full season for the rest of his career.

  263. Vince December 17th, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    How must Melky feel not knowing his status for 2009 ?

    http://weblogs.newsday.com/spo.....s_off.html

  264. yanks61 December 17th, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    Whoops, missed the last thread. This is mainly for you GB and a few others, who, like me, saw him actually play the majority of his career:

    GB and others; I concur 110% regarding everything said about Mantle’s brilliance as a player.

    I think it was Nelly Fox who said that if they had artificial turf when Mick was playing, Mantle probably would have killed a few infielders.

    Even on natural grass, Mantle was, in his younger days, nearly impossible to get out if he dragged a bunt from the left side. 2nd and 1b had to play him deep. All he needed to do – and he was very good at doing it – was drag the ball past the mound. His speed down to first was simply not to be believed.

    Did you know, by the way, that it was said that Mick actually could throw a great knuckleball? Not that he ever needed to.

    Mantle was a walking Greek tragedy. One of the greatest talents ever, with a body that broke down on him (of course, he didn’t help the problem with his drinking and carousing.)

    And for the Arod haters here, by the way, in the 50’s, when Mantle was putting up HOF seasons, he was booed repeatedly by fans at YS. Figures, doesn’t?People in the stands who couldn’t catch a little league fly ball to save their lives, booing one of the greatest players who ever lived. Don’t tell me it’s not true; I was there.

  265. dave December 17th, 2008 at 4:14 pm

    Frankly, I am a little dubious of this whole rocco baldelli misdiagnosis. For one, channelopathy is an extremely nondescriptive term that can mean one of many, many different disorder both both congenital or acquired. Further, i FIND it all too convenient that this misdiagnosis report came out in the midst of rocco’s free agency off season. Whats more, the doctors or moreover some reporter is claiming that the physicians are saying that this disorder that he has had all along is “very treatable and non-progressive.” The original diagnosis was for mitochondrial myopathy which is another extremely vague term for a wide class of disorders which are all transmitted down by the mother. Another words, the first disorder he likely would have had his whole life and the second depends on the type of channelopathy. Further, the mitochondrial myopathy disorders present at childhood and have extremely serious disorders associated with them. For a doctor to now say at 27 that the diagnosis was wrong all along is strange – for a doctor to say that what was original thought to be mitochondrial myopathy is now a treatable and non-progressive condition is even less likely.

    Basically, most all mitochondrial myopathys are serious and known from childhood, impact multiple body systems particularly extreme energy requiring systems such as the brain and muscle . Therefore, patients with this disease get tired extremely easily and there is a constant buildup of lactic acid due to the inefficient mitochondria in respiration and energy production. Also, constant headaches to the point of extreme pin point pain and muscle spasms occur. Does this sound like something that would be misdiagnosed for the first 27 years of life – doubtful as these effects are recurring, painful and sometimes can interfere with daily life.

    Further baldelli has been on and off the dl his entire career – mitochondrial myopathy certainly explained why. Otherwise, with a much less serious and more treatable condition it is likely baldelli is just very injury prone or that the channelopathy has caused some of the detrimental effects. Either way, i would not even take a flyer out on baldelli. I dont see him playing a full season for the rest of his career

  266. Tom December 17th, 2008 at 4:15 pm

    I think he was just mad at Al from BK?

  267. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    “How do you address the serious imbalance and the resulting lack of depth/insurance that such a huge commitment to such a small group will cause?”

    Payroll: $173.85 million
    Assuming Wang gets $8 million in arbitration and CC, Burnett, and Tex’s contracts are all distributed equally per year.
    Lineup- $103.35 million
    $21.0 – Jeter
    $ 9.0 – Cano
    $31.0 – A-Rod
    $22.0 – Tex
    $13.1 – Posada
    $ 6.7 – Swisher
    $ 0.5 – Jackson

    Rotation- $49.5 million
    $23.0 – CC
    $ 8.0 – Wang
    $ 1.0 – Joba
    $16.5 – Burnett
    $ 1.0 – Hughes

    Bullpen- $21.0 million
    $15.0 – Mariano
    $ 4.0 – Marte
    $ 0.5 – Melancon
    $ 1.5 – 3 young arms

    That leave LF and DH open along with the bench. You see an unathletic team, I see a powerhouse offense and a great young rotation. Mariano and Jeter are free agents the next year and then Posada is a free agent the following year.

  268. Phil December 17th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

    And quite coincidentally, I’m sure, there’s a positive article about Melky and the winterball players at Yankees.com.

    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....8;c_id=nyy

  269. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    Yanks61 –

    I wasn’t even born yet but after seeing what A-Rod goes through, what you’re saying about Mantle being booed doesn’t surprise me.

    Would have been great to see him play like that, especially before his bones were getting creaky. And if Manny Ramirez ever saw him play, perhaps he’d be a bit more humble.

  270. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    ““Damon in CF isn’t that bad. Swisher played a good amount in CF last year too. Nady has played CF too”

    They’d be fine if the league let all three of ‘em play CF at once.”

    You’re taking what I said out of context. The next line said something along the lines of, if they proved they couldn’t cut it in center they could bench or trade Nady and would still be getting a huge boost offensively with Tex’s bat replacing Nady.

    Where can you find defensive ratings? I’d like to see who Swisher compared to in his time at CF last year.

  271. timo December 17th, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    “no.27″ and “Wave Your Hat” I agree with you but the problem is I’m afraid that isn’t the way Cashman thinks. He’s very stubborn about admitting his dollar mistakes. He knows that it is quite possible that Posada will be physically incapable of performing as a catcher. Therefore, to justify the $52M, there has to be a spot for him at 1B or DH, even if it means the ruination of the team. It makes even less sense when you consider that it’s not his money and it’s the owners who have to push him to spend. But that’s the way it seems.

  272. ANSKY December 17th, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    Maybe that guy WAS the burger king.
    That would explain the pompous attitude ….

  273. The Greek December 17th, 2008 at 4:24 pm

    Peter, I think Manny does rather well in pressure situations whether he likes them or not. The guy is a winner, stop hating on him. And comparing Manny to a steroid infested Sheffield is plain wrong!

  274. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 4:25 pm

    By the way, Jeter would have had the 20th best OPS among first baseman last year. You might as well save first base for Melky.

  275. murphydog December 17th, 2008 at 4:26 pm

    I’ve heard the booing Mantle stories from my dad. The Mick wasn’t Joe D so they booed him. They only stopped booing Mantle when Maris became available to be booed.

    Are they booing A-Rod because he’s not Scott Brosius? Well, yeah, they are.

    The Yankees won with Scotty B, who wasn’t making a gazillion dollars and who didn’t suck all the oxygen out of every room he was in. Scott Brosius will be remembered for hitting way over his head as a Yankee, for his timely hits and HRs and his stellar fielding. And for going out on top, a la Moose, instead of milking it dry into an embarassing decline.

    Funny, A-Rod will have double the numbers needed to get into the HOF, but he’ll never be Scott Brosius, if that makes sense.

  276. bru December 17th, 2008 at 4:26 pm

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/st.....8;sort=837

    this is the top era team list

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/st.....8;sort=707

    this is the top rbi teams wich is very close in numbers to runs scored

    what i see is most of the playoff teams are near the top in era but it is very mixed when it comes to top offenses.

    an example is the rangers.they had the most rbi’s but were dead last in team rbi wich tells me that an offense can carry a team only so far.

    toronto had the best team era but 22nd out of 30 teams in rbi’s.

    tampa,milwaukee,angels were middle of the pack in offense,the dodgers 24th out of 30 teams in offense.

    toronto,dodgers,rays,brewers,cubs,phillies,arizona,dodgers,red sox were the top 9 teams in era.

    now look at the top 9 teams in offense,texas,cubs,red sox,twins,white sox,tigers,indians,phillies,yankees.

    all 8 teams that made the playoffs were in the top 11 in era’

    the phillies were 6th in era & 8th in rbi’s.

    the dodgers were closer to the bottom in rbi’s but 2nd in baseball in era.

    what i see is that offense alone will not do it & pitching is a must & the better the pitching the more it will cover for the offense & as long as the offense is the middle of the pack up & better you have a chance.

    all 8 teams that made the playoffs were in the top 11 in era,no team below that made it.

    all 8 teams that made the playoffs were in the top 24 in offense.

    if you are in the top 25 percent in both you are should be ok.

  277. john_halfz December 17th, 2008 at 4:26 pm

    The comparison of Ramirez to Sheffield is funny. Over his career, Ramirez has created 1.5 runs more/27 outs.

    As a career hitter, Manny is more in the Frank Robinson/Hank Aaron category relative to his peers. Gary Sheffield is more in the Billy Hamilton/Duke Snider category. Nothing to sneeze at, but still.

    Also, saying that it’s a dumb move because no one has made offers makes no sense. Adam Dunn, who’s heavily undervalued (though no Manny Ramirez), has attracted no interest. I don’t know about you, but my 401 K went down by about 20% in value from August to November. Most teams aren’t blessed with Yankee resources. And most teams are run by idiots (Jim Bowden has a career in baseball).

  278. rick December 17th, 2008 at 4:27 pm

    I agree with CB…. The Yankees are doing something the Cameron deal is dead so which direction are they going…could it be a smoke screen to drive up price for Tex

  279. Will December 17th, 2008 at 4:28 pm

    So now that we’ve concluded we can’t get texeira because we need to leave 1b open for aging players (NOT BECAUSE OF MONEY)

    the question moves on to manny.. should we sign him or not?

    I say yes ONLY IF they can move one of their corner OF

  280. bru December 17th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    an example is the rangers.they had the most rbi’s but were dead last in team era(correction) wich tells me that an offense can carry a team only so far.

  281. SJ44 December 17th, 2008 at 4:30 pm

    Per Buster Olney on the Michael Kay Show:

    The Yankees have never made an offer on Tex and aren’t involved.

    If Manny fell into their lap (ie: A Clemens-like one year deal) they would consider it. There are no considerations in giving him a multi-year deal.

    Tex is down to Anaheim, Boston and Washington. The Angels feel that even if they make the biggest offer, his desire to play on the East Coast may trump their offer. Nobody knows for sure where he is leaning.

    If the Dodgers sign Furcal, they won’t go after Manny because McCourt won’t spend the money. There hasn’t been any talks between the Dodgers and Boras in weeks on Manny.

    That’s all he had today.

  282. Seve December 17th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    Joel Sherman had an interesting musing this morning. How about Hideki for Andruw Jones? (http://blogs.nypost.com/sports.....y_and.html)

    You would get Jones (who LA is desperate to dump) fill CF w/ above average defense and high upside offense. Yes he had an abysmal 2008. That said… He’s a Boras guy who will be motivated to have a BIG 2009 to get that next contract.

    It would cost you just $2M more than Matsui is making and give you defense (which Hideki can no longer provide) without blocking top prospect, Austin Jackson. If the Yankees sign Dunn, Manny or whoever, where does that leave Matsui anyway? Answer: A very pricey bench player and occasional DH.

  283. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    Posada’s career average OPS of .857 would have been 15th this year among first basemen, more than 100 points below Teixeira. It would be pretty impressive if he could put up his career average OPS when he’s 39 and 40 years old.

  284. Patrick December 17th, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    If the Dodgers don’t re-sign Manny, where does he go? Will the Angels go after him if they can’t get Tex? What if the Angels get Tex? Could he be desperate enough to take a 1-2 year deal with the Yankees?

    I don’t want Manny on the Yankees but it will be awfully hard to turn down if he falls into our laps. Also, I’m a bit surprised the Giants aren’t in the mix for him, they need a bat.

  285. Drive 4-5 December 17th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    Brett the Hitman,

    “Is that not the slowest most unathletic lineup you’ve ever seen in your life especially considering the cost and the long term limitations?”

    How does signing Tex hurt that 2010 lineup? Defensively, he’d be the best 1st baseman the Yanks have had since Mattingly. Offensively,Donnie was pretty slow of foot himself but we’d take his production in a heartbeat wouldnt we?

    The Yanks have sacrificed drafting athletes for the sake of drafting pitchers. There are exceptions like AJ,but they are only exceptions. Now they not only draft pitchers almost exclusively, but the Yanks are spending their free agent money this year exclusively on pitching. It’s not a well rounded plan by any means and there’s little to be done to address your concerns.

  286. Patrick December 17th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    Matsui for Jones? Never in a million years would I agree to that deal.

  287. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    “The Yankees have never made an offer on Tex and aren’t involved.”

    If this is true, it’s not surprising. It does make me wonder what was said during that meeting Cash had with Tex. Did he tell him “You’re a great player and we’d love to have you, but we need pitching more” or did he say “If your cost is reasonable, we’ll consider it”. I guess we’ll never know.

  288. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    “Matsui for Jones? Never in a million years would I agree to that deal.”

    No one would. Jones is done. Finished. Washed up. Got nothing left to give.

    Matsui is worth 15 Andruw Joneses.

  289. dave December 17th, 2008 at 4:40 pm

    Mr. exceptional,

    while cash did achieve the one main goal of the off season in signing cc WE had to spend 50 mil more than the next highest offer to get him to come to ny. We also just blew over 80 million on a deal that wouldnt work out in the long run every 999 of 1000 times – lets hope this is that 1/1000 i guess.

    Cash’s glimmer of genius can be seen in a few small deals like the swisher deal giving up almost useless spare parts for the league leader in pitchers per plate appearance last season and almost a given to rebound from last season at a cheap price with the versatility to play at least four positions. Swisher was in fact a steal and this is when cash should be praised.

    The big deals are not all that impressive. But again, cash did come through with the marte signing which was solid and he did finally sign CC in the end and all it took was bidding against ourselves two or three times.

    But the successes of this off season that cash had buit for himself as almost sure things took a back seat to the AJ deal. Essentially cash;s entire career could be hinging on this one move as well as his legacy in pinstripes. With AJ’s success becomes cash’s triumphant return to the GM throne doing well on his word by bringing a stable of aces to the bronx. However, if AJ’s deal goes completely sour after just one or two seasons of a five year deal cash may forever be known as the guy who made all those terrible gigantic pitching signings for the yankees. hEY, if i were a betting man – i would not put my future in the hands of one Alan James Burnett zero time all star and 10 time dler. Luckly, Im not a betting man and cash likes the odds.

    Still further, the CC and Burnett deal did make the rotation significantly younger adding to joba and wang to make the average age close to 27 currently. And swisher also decreased the age of the offense but signing cameron would further remove us from the goal of youn and athletic as would pettitte – two signings that cash seemingly has no problems with but i think the other way – signing tex and specifically, dramatically improving our infield offense, obp, pitches/PA and lineup while at the same time possibly hurting the redsox for no more than the price of cameron and pettitte next season is much more ideal.

    Cash may like the stop gaps of cameron for ajax and pettitte for hughes. Personally, i feel those can both be filled internally with equal winning percentage for each spot – gardner and aceves. I also feel tex’s entire game and the wins it adds to the team would well excel those of cameron and pettitte combined. And that i would bet on! The final concern is next years free agency – we have one potential player that can help us a great deal in the OF and that is matt holliday who can essentially replace damon in left while ajax takes up his spot in the lineup as he takes over center for gardner. Matui’s dh position can be held open for posada and montero can slowly transition into the starting catching position. While tex represents 20 million less that we cant spend on free agents next season – he also would be the best option either off season after holliday is considered. With matsui, damon and nady leaving 31 million in free payroll we could spend 20 mil on holliday and still plug any other holes – although i dont imagine any barring major across season injuries. Tex puts the payroll at around 200 mil representing an almost 10 million dollar decrease which should be palatable – i always though a 30 million decrease was extreme and a very strange way to open the new stadium generating the most revenue the yanks have ever had. This completes our lineup for the next two years and beyond with only minor additions. I think this is perfectly doable and especially if we take tex away from the redsox extremely enticing.

  290. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    “Matsui for Jones? Never in a million years would I agree to that deal.”

    let me put this in simple words: HELLLLLL NO!!!

  291. bottom line December 17th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    “…but I think good pitching, defense, hit and run, steals…are what make baseball great.”

    One of the best things I ever read on this blog. Thank you, Espresso

  292. Seve December 17th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    “Matsui is worth 15 Andruw Joneses.”

    Really? You’d want 15 players who’ve had two different knee surgeries and can no longer be relied upon to play the the outfield and will be relegated to eating pine when they sign another bat?

  293. SJ44 December 17th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    Patrick,

    I think if the Red Sox sign Tex, the Angels will sign Manny.

    If the Angels sign Tex? That’s when it gets interesting.

    At that point, Manny will have one, multi-year offer on the table….the Nationals. In fact, the Nationals could pull that offer and sign Adam Dunn. Some in baseball believe that if they lose out on Tex, they will sign Dunn.

    That would take Manny out of the Nationals plans.

    Could he then go back to the Dodgers with a one year offer? Perhaps.

    But, how does that square with turning down a 2 year, 45 million dollar offer with them earlier in the process.

    Can’t see that making Manny a happy camper with the Dodgers.

    His reputation has really come back to bite him in the butt. If he wasn’t such a diva, he would have gotten the 100 million Boras promised he would get him.

  294. Bob December 17th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    I think the Yankees haven’t made an offer to Teixeira because they made an agreement for Boras to call the Yankees when a decision was made and see if the Yankees would match it. I think all things being equal, Teixeira would rather play for the Yankees but he WON’T leave $10-$20 million on the table to go play somewhere else.

    That is my opinion of that front. If Manny was smart, he’d jump on the Yankees’ offer. If the Yankees do land Teixeira, Manny’s market drops severely.

  295. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 4:43 pm

    “If the Dodgers sign Furcal, they won’t go after Manny”

    They’re going nowhere without him.

  296. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 4:43 pm

    murphydog
    December 17th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
    I’ve heard the booing Mantle stories from my dad. The Mick wasn’t Joe D so they booed him. They only stopped booing Mantle when Maris became available to be booed.

    Are they booing A-Rod because he’s not Scott Brosius? Well, yeah, they are.

    The Yankees won with Scotty B, who wasn’t making a gazillion dollars and who didn’t suck all the oxygen out of every room he was in. Scott Brosius will be remembered for hitting way over his head as a Yankee, for his timely hits and HRs and his stellar fielding. And for going out on top, a la Moose, instead of milking it dry into an embarassing decline.

    Funny, A-Rod will have double the numbers needed to get into the HOF, but he’ll never be Scott Brosius, if that makes sense.

    ————————————————————

    The fact that Mantle wasn’t DiMaggio started the booing, but, it really esculated because of the Korean War. He received a draft physical notice and failed it. Mantle actually went back and requested induction 3 different times and failed the physicals. The road fans, and worse, the NY fans screamed everything from draft dodger to commie.
    He was booed until mid August of 1960. It was only one of the few, if not the only time, he failed to run out a ground ball that he should have easily beat out. On the play, Maris slid into 2nd base and the 2nd baseman fell on Maris, cracking a couple of ribs. As the fans booed, Stengel pulled him from the game and benched him. He made a public apoogy to the players, fans and media, and especially to Stengel and he asked to be back on the team. That was one of only 2 games he missed during the year. In his first game back, the fans gave him a standing ovation, and he was never booed again…the quit booing on the road, too. Needless to say, they had their new target ready for 1961….Maris..and they never let up. The media…inparticular, Jimmy Cannon and Dick Young.

  297. Brandon (SHOW SHEETS THE MONEEEEEY !, CC & AJ are Yankees!)..."Don't trade Robi !" December 17th, 2008 at 4:43 pm

    -Joel Sherman had an interesting musing this morning. How about Hideki for Andruw Jones? (http://blogs.nypost.com/sports.....y_and.html)

    You would get Jones (who LA is desperate to dump) fill CF w/ above average defense and high upside offense. Yes he had an abysmal 2008. That said… He’s a Boras guy who will be motivated to have a BIG 2009 to get that next contract-

    I could have sworn Joel Sherman had a point I still don’t see it.

  298. E-Man December 17th, 2008 at 4:43 pm

    LOL Pete.

    You can use that reasoning with ANY PLAYER as to why you shouldn’t give them multiyear contracts.

  299. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

    correction ***public apology***

  300. E-Man December 17th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    And really, Pete.. Buster Olney? You’ll soon be quoting Peter Gammons as to why teams shouldn’t sign Manny.

  301. Drive 4-5 December 17th, 2008 at 4:46 pm

    ”…but I think good pitching, defense, hit and run, steals…are what make baseball great.”

    Agreed all of the above are fun to watch. But Totonto was 1st in ERA and 1st in fielding % and finished in 4th place. They were weak offensively.

  302. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    “Really? You’d want 15 players who’ve had two different knee surgeries and can no longer be relied upon to play the the outfield and will be relegated to eating pine when they sign another bat?”

    It is quite clear that the point of my post was that Matsui is much more valuable to us that Jones, who is a washed up has been who can barely bat over .200. Matsui is a very good hitter when healthy. He’s clutch and will drive in over 100+ RBIs a season.

  303. Anthony December 17th, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    How could anyone believe Andruw Jones will be motivated by a new contract when his decline began in a contract year?

  304. bru December 17th, 2008 at 4:51 pm

    wfan is all over the yankees,manny & exactly what we are discussing

  305. Patrick December 17th, 2008 at 4:51 pm

    I could live with Manny for one MAYBE two years but anything beyond that would be ludicrous.

    I still want to trade for Cameron. The only true hole in the lineup is at CF. I don’t want Damon there full-time and Gardner is too much of a risk. If the Yankees improve the offense in another way, there will have to be another corresponding move. For example, if they get Manny, then Matsui will have to be traded. I think that this could decrease the likelihood of getting Tex, Manny, Dunn, etc.

    Its hard enough to agree on the terms for signing a guy, it only complicates matters when a corresponding trade has to take place. The Cameron trade is easy, trade Melky and a prospect for Cameron, throw Gardner on the bench. I still think this is the most likely scenario.

  306. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

    “Agreed all of the above are fun to watch. But Totonto was 1st in ERA and 1st in fielding % and finished in 4th place. They were weak offensively.”

    And if we are not careful, we could end up like them. Good pitching, good defense, but we can’t drive in any runs. I don’t know about the rest of you guys, but it was very frustrating watching the Yankees leave countless guys on base last season. Wasn’t there a week where in at least two games, we had bases loaded twice in a game and failed to score? I don’t want to see that happen again in ’09. We need another bat. I’d like it to be Tex (it probably won’t), but it has to be somebody.

  307. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 4:53 pm

    murphydog
    December 17th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
    I’ve heard the booing Mantle stories from my dad. The Mick wasn’t Joe D so they booed him. They only stopped booing Mantle when Maris became available to be booed.

    Are they booing A-Rod because he’s not Scott Brosius? Well, yeah, they are.

    The Yankees won with Scotty B, who wasn’t making a gazillion dollars and who didn’t suck all the oxygen out of every room he was in. Scott Brosius will be remembered for hitting way over his head as a Yankee, for his timely hits and HRs and his stellar fielding. And for going out on top, a la Moose, instead of milking it dry into an embarassing decline.

    Funny, A-Rod will have double the numbers needed to get into the HOF, but he’ll never be Scott Brosius, if that makes sense.

    ————————————————————

    Did you know that given the post season at bats, if they were equal to Mantle’s, his numbers would be as good or better than Mantle’s. Also, look at Rodriguez’ PS prior to game four of 2004 ALCS. They were quite good….outstanding, actually. So for people to say he’s never produced when it counted, they are full of it.

  308. SJ44 December 17th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    Dave,

    The reality is, CC Sabathia had no desire to come east. It was more than money. Cashman had to recruit the guy.

    You can’t rip Cashman for spending money, not spending money, and having nothing to do, except write a check, to get Sabathia.

    If it was just that simple, Sabathia would have taken the initial offer and signed.

    The offer made was not 50 million under the next offer. Milwaukee was ready to go to 6/125.

    In addition, you had the Angels waiting in the wings ready to pounce if they didn’t sign Tex.

    Cashman does deserve credit for getting the guy to close the deal now and not drag it out any longer.

    It would have cost them more money, or perhaps not get him at all, if he was still on the market Post-Tex signing.

    At the end of the day, you evaluate the GM on whether he got the player or didn’t get the player.

    The Yankees top priorities this off-season were:

    1. Getting 3 starting pitchers who could give them 500-600 innings. Their top 3 choices were, CC, AJ and Pettitte. They have two of the three as of today.

    2. Get younger, better defensively, and more athletic at first base. They did that with Swisher and the cost was minimal.

    3. Not to lose their top prospect in the desire to fulfill the first two goals. So far, mission accomplished.

    Overall, his off-season has been excellent. Just has to button up one more spot in the rotation, and then see what plays out in January when a glut of hitters will be on the market.

  309. bru December 17th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    MJ
    December 17th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
    Bru:

    I was using the AL only, to stay consistent with Pete’s post.

    —————–

    oh ok,sorry.

  310. Ninja Burglar December 17th, 2008 at 4:58 pm

    Hey Pete:

    How about a simple yes/no poll on Manny Ramirez?

  311. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

    Daniel Cabrera is finding a lot of interest. The one missing team surprises me, though. St. Louis has no interest.

    “According to John Perrotto of Baseball Prospectus, the Pirates top the list of suitors for Daniel Cabrera. He says the Brewers, Padres, Rangers, Blue Jays, and Nationals are also interested.”

  312. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    “How about a simple yes/no poll on Manny Ramirez?”

    You can count my vote now. NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  313. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    Tex enthusiasts,

    Here’s the 2010 lineup with Teixeira followed by a list of reasons why it doesn’t seem plausible.

    Derek Jeter-ss
    Robinson Cano-2b
    Alex Rodriguez-3b
    Mark Teixeira-1b
    Xavier Nady-rf
    Jorge Posada-dh
    Nick Swisher-lf
    Austin Jackson-cf
    ???-c

    1) Financial risk: The Yankees would be concentrating investments of up to 132 milion dollars per year in 6 roster spots.

    2) Roster imbalance: If the Yankees are operating on a 200 million budget, the remaining 19 players would need to earn less than 4 million each on average. What kinds of players can you get for that price?

    3) Dependence on a few at the expense of the many: If the Yankees are tied mainly to the performance of 6 players, those remaining players making less than 4 mil per will have to be skilled enough to pick up the slack if 1 too many of those 6 underperform, go cold or get injured. The Yankees would not be able to find as many ways to win without a balanced playoff roster with multiple players with a wide variety of skills. The more talent spread throughout the roster, the more your percentages of winning go up. That’s why you spread out your investments. If one of them tanks, the others are still generating money for you.

    4) Station to station: Speed creates scoring opportunities and leads to cheap runs in short playoff series. How many stolen bases for that lineup above?

    Sorry but I don’t want to repeat the mistake of tying up a huge chunk of the budget in a select few players and depend on them to carry us in the postseason while the offense is station to station and the pitchers are under added pressure to shut down opponents.

    Pass on Teixeira. Pass on Manny. Pass on Dunn.

  314. Laura December 17th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

    “Daniel Cabrera is finding a lot of interest. The one missing team surprises me, though. St. Louis has no interest.”

    If some team’s pitching coach can find a way to get this guy to get his command under control, he will be very dangerous.

    And here’s hoping he goes to the NL. That will decrease the chances of him hitting Yankee batters, something he apparently loves to do.

  315. no.27 December 17th, 2008 at 5:04 pm

    Bret the Hitman,

    I responded to the question you asked: “How do you address the serious imbalance and the resulting lack of depth/insurance that such a huge commitment to such a small group will cause?”

    Again, the payroll for 2010 would be around $173.85mil give or take Wang’s arbitration and whether or not CC, Tex, and Burnett’s contracts are backloaded or frontloaded (that assumes its the same each year and Wang gets 8 mil in 2010)
    Here’s the roster: Jeter, Cano, A-Rod, Tex, Posada, Swish, Jackson; CC, Wang, Joba, Burnett, Hughes; Mariano, Marte, Melancon, and 3 young arms. That would leave LF, the DH, and bench still open.

    Looks like a great team. The next year Mariano and Jeter are free agents. Mariano probably leaves and Jeter gets a pay cut and moves to LF. The following year Posada’s a free agent.

  316. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

    Laura
    December 17th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
    “Daniel Cabrera is finding a lot of interest. The one missing team surprises me, though. St. Louis has no interest.”

    If some team’s pitching coach can find a way to get this guy to get his command under control, he will be very dangerous.

    And here’s hoping he goes to the NL. That will decrease the chances of him hitting Yankee batters, something he apparently loves to do.

    ————————————————————

    In Texas, he’d have one of the best teachers for power pitchers there is…Nolan Ryan is team president. Ryan fixed Randy Johnson’s control issues in 2 visits back in the mid 90s.

  317. bru December 17th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

    no.27

    nady,damon,swish can’t play cf.

    terrible idea.

    just sign or trade for a cf & sign pettitte/lowe/sheets.

    i have a feeling cashman trades hughes for a cf if we don’t sign baldelli.

    i would keep hughes & trade cano instead.

    we can trade nady or swisher then trade hughes for a cf & cano for a fb,then sign hudson or furcal or trade for a 2nd baseman.

    as long as we have a 2nd baseman that equalls cano’s obp i don’t think we would miss him.

    i would hate to see us trade him & then he hits 30 hr & 100 rbi’s though.

    he is supposed to be in great shape & cut up nice.

  318. Yankee Trader December 17th, 2008 at 5:08 pm

    Teixeira wants to play in the Northeast, and unless the Angels give him a humungous contract with an opt out clause, IMO he’ll be going to the Red Sox, if indeed the Orioles are out, where he’d be closer to home, which is important to him.

    This is just an opinion, based on what I’ve read about him, that the team he’d really like to play for would be the Yankees.

    As for CF, if Cameron deal is officially off, please don’t mention Andruw Jones, who can’t stay in shape, and was probably juiced when he hit those 50 homers. There must be other options out there that we haven’t talked about in a while. Cardinals need pitching, especially bullpen help, where they had the 2nd worse record next to the Mets in NL.
    Anything wrong with Skip Schumaker?

    I agree whole heartedly that if Manny fell into our laps for a one year deal that it would be worth the risk.
    However in Manny’s case I really don’t see him wanting to end his career under the “bright lights” of NYC.

  319. dave December 17th, 2008 at 5:09 pm

    Pete,

    You mentioned teams with high run totals that didnt make it to the playoffs. WHAT ABOUT THE BLUE JAYS? First in the league in era – best pitching in baseball. They finished fourth in the division and only slightly over 530 for the year. Why? NO OFFENSE!!!! And why did they have no offense? They relied on three or four guys named vernon, alex, lyle and scott to pull the entire team through. They werent prepared for an injury to a main starter had a pathetic bench and surely enough, vernon wells injury led to their total offensive collapse – they scored 561 runs and finished dead last in all of baseball. This is a prime example of no balance, all pitching and inability to win. Pitching is a major part of winning but offense counts and relying on guys that should not and can not be relied upon for significant production any longer should not be expected to perform to career averages. It is feasible to expect one of cano or swisher to have a full rebound and the other to struggle at many points. It is feasible to expect either posada or matsui to have a full recovery and hit to their career norms. Expecting all four of them to have comeback seasons is a gigantic mistake. Furthermore, nady will most likely put up 280 335 next year and not the 300 350 he put up last year.

    So ostensibly the lineup converts one of cano/swisher to a ninth hitter with a 260/320 type numbers and posada or matsui would be taken out of the lineup – this could represent any injury not just to one of them. So now the lineup looks like: Damon, jeter, Arod, Matsui, Swisher, Nady, under league avg hitter, Molina, Gardner. After swisher in a year putting up a 380 obp the lineup becomes far less ominous and increasingly dreadful. And this is far from assuming the worst case scenario that we lose two regular starters or neither swisher/cano bounce back completely. This is why another bat is crucial to this team – not because it needs it currently but because by mid july this lineup will be tearing at the seams.

    By the way, arizona was fourth in pitching whip and 24th in runs scored with the third lowest walk total. They finished a little above 500 .

    Team whip was probably the biggest predictor of team success in regular season with every playoff contender except for the phillies in the top 9 and only 2 of the top 9 not in the playoffs. The phillies made it in by scoring the third most runs in the NL. So pitching predicts success specifically whip of the team is the greatest indictor of team success but in the end, the offense can modify that greatness if at extreme ends of the spectra. Jays and arizona had superb pitching but dreadful offense prevented them from going to the playoffs. The phillies had only slightly better than mediocre pitching but their pretty stellar offense with rollins, howard, utley and victorino got them in and their solid balance as a team overall helped them win. Pitching is a better predictor of success but offense cannot be discounted particularly in the post-season when the offense is facing the best pitchers in the league at the top of their baseball game and hitters that thrive against poor pitching in the lineup will be utterly ineffective against the pitching and lose.

  320. rover December 17th, 2008 at 5:09 pm

    I often wonder what Mantle would be worth today. Let alone what a healthy Mantle would be worth today. The guy played most of his career in tape and pain. He had amazing speed,one of the fastest bats in his era. Hit for average and power a powerful arm albeit not the most accurate. With all of his faults, no once could say he didn’t pull his weight. Just an amazing player

  321. Drive 4-5 December 17th, 2008 at 5:10 pm

    SJ44,

    Cashman also removed 2 of the 3 highest on base percentage and obps hitters from the lineup. Their replacements are Nick Swisher, a career .244 hitter that’s only driven in more than 78 runs once and reliance on Matsui and Posada playing better than we should reasonably assume given their injuries and age. He’s done far from an excellent job unless he improves on that substantially IMO.

  322. nyyfaninlaaland December 17th, 2008 at 5:10 pm

    Bret – you’re just pulling numbers out of your butt at this point.

    Nowhere has anyone suggested a $28MM number for Tex.

    And the fact is we don’t know how the Yanks are structuring the contracts for AJ and CC, but they certainly have significant incentives to backload them past 2010, with Damon and Matsui coming off next year and Jeter and Mo expiring after 2010.

    NY will clearly try to structure at least CC’s contract to minimize the short term lux tax impact. And it’s so easy for a cash rich team like the Yanks top do. Consider that CC made $11MM in 2008. Let’s say NY structured his deal with $12MM salary in ’09, then say $15MM in 2010, then up to $23MM in 2011 and out. They’d owe $18 MM on the total value. If they paid signing bonuses of $11MM up front and $7 MM in ’09, the dollar value to CC is evened out. But for Luxury tax calculations, the signing bonuses are prorated over the contract term, adding less than $3MM per year to each year’s salary. Meaning the payroll “hit” in ’09 would be about $15MM, and $18MM in ’09. They could also employ this with Burnett, but likely in a much smaller way. Those 2 “reductions” in tax accounted salary save the Yanks 40% of the “deffered” dollars. That’s 40% of about $13 MM. You don’t think they’re going to utilize that approach? With the luxury tax threshold rising to $165 MM in ’09, then $172 and $178, they have every incentive to use signing bonuses as accounting strategies on long term contracts. Big buyouts on options work well as well. Expect some creative approaches on these deals.

    Aside from that, Nady is a FA after ’09, and they’ll be hoping Posada is at C plus some DH. In 2010 you could see Jeter in LF, someone else entirely at SS or LF, and the ? would be at DH. Could be a much more athletic team than you postulate. Among the OF and SS candidates available for 2010 could be Jason Bay, Rick Ankiel, Matt Holliday, and Khalil Greene.

  323. Bob(The Original) December 17th, 2008 at 5:10 pm

    i have a feeling cashman trades hughes for a cf if we don’t sign baldelli.

    ————————————————————

    I don’t see Cashman dealing Hughes. At least I sure hope he won’t.

    Wouldn’t be surprised to see him deal Kennedy though.

  324. GreenBeret7 December 17th, 2008 at 5:11 pm

    December 17th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
    I often wonder what Mantle would be worth today. Let alone what a healthy Mantle would be worth today. The guy played most of his career in tape and pain. He had amazing speed,one of the fastest bats in his era. Hit for average and power a powerful arm albeit not the most accurate. With all of his faults, no once could say he didn’t pull his weight. Just an amazing player

    ————————————————————

    He’d be half owner of the NYY.

  325. dave December 17th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

    Im sorry the jays werent dead last they were 21st and the dbacks were 20th – i dunno how i read that incorrectly sorry

  326. Bret the Hitman December 17th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

    Nyyfaninlaaland,

    http://blogs.weei.com/alexspei.....llionyear/

  327. JUSTIN December 17th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    pleas sign manny lol

  328. rover December 17th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

    GreenBeret7 Ha ha I wouldn’t bet against that.

  329. Yankee Trader December 17th, 2008 at 5:15 pm

    Dave,

    “The reality is, CC Sabathia had no desire to come east. It was more than money. Cashman had to recruit the guy.

    You can’t rip Cashman for spending money, not spending money, and having nothing to do, except write a check, to get Sabathia.

    If it was just that simple, Sabathia would have taken the initial offer and signed.

    The offer made was not 50 million under[ you meant over] the next offer. Milwaukee was ready to go to 6/125.

    In addition, you had the Angels waiting in the wings ready to pounce if they didn’t sign Tex.”

    Agree with SJ44.
    Yes the offer was 21 million more than the initial offer, but that was for the 7th year, and ther’s no doubt in my mind Sabathia would have gone to the Angels if Tex wasn’t signed by them. The Angels would then have enough pitching depth to trade for a slugger.

  330. bru December 17th, 2008 at 5:23 pm

    why di i have a strange feeling that the yankees are up to something & it is not pettitte.

    tex,manny,a trade,etc…..

    maybe looking at baldelli’s medical situation,cano trade,hughes trade,swish,nady.

    right now outside of arod & pitchers the yankees do not have any real long contracts.jeter up in 2 yrs,posada in 3,damon,nady,matsui after 09,swish a few yrs & cano is no big deal because he is tradeable & young.

    why not just go all out & trade cano,kennedy,melky for adrian gonzalez & hughes & a few others for kemp,mclouth,etc…. & sign pettitte & furcal/hudson?then move nady.

    lineup

    damon
    jeter
    gonzalez
    arod
    matsui
    posada
    swisher
    furcal
    mclouth

    rotation

    cc
    wang
    burnett
    pettitte
    joba

    with a nice bullpen

    we have a nasty rotation,fix fb & cf,get a huge bat.

  331. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

    damon
    jeter
    gonzalez – **NOT**
    arod
    matsui
    posada
    swisher
    furcal – **GOING**
    mclouth – **TO HAPPEN!!**

  332. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 5:28 pm

    YES………

    Furcal is going back to the Dodgers. Now **some** people could shut up about signing Furcal to play 2B.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....ver-Braves

  333. bru December 17th, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    Aaron

    jeter will not go to fb.

    show me what team has a fb with 5 hr’s or whatever jeter will be hitting in 2 yrs,not gonna happen.

  334. viridiana December 17th, 2008 at 5:35 pm

    A few notes on Mantle from one who saw him up close

    –Yes, he was a phenomenal hitter and athlete. But Berra was the guy you wanted up there with the game on the line. And Bauer was the guy who made things happen. Probably the last great triples hitter the Yankees have had.

    –All this stuff about Mantle getting booed is way overdone. Yes, there were boos, especially in the early years. But it always seemed like isolated pockets. It was never full-throated roar, or even anything close to that. Amazing hiw these things get blown up in time. One reason Mantle was booed early on is he came up with great hype, but clearly wasn’t ready. He was striking out at an alrming rate and, yes, many wanted JoeD — who almost never fanned. BUt I believe the booing really subsided after the first year or two. And in Yankee Stadium — then as today — you never know who’s really booing a guy. There were plenty of Yankee-haters then too who got a rise out of rubbing it in to the Yankees’ golden boy,

    What may be true though is that until the Mantle-Maris HR battle in 1961 that fans did not truly warm to him. They defintiely did from that point forward.

  335. bru December 17th, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    Ed – CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo!

    shut up.please.

    thank the lord you’re not standing next to me.

  336. viridiana December 17th, 2008 at 5:37 pm

    No idea why there were lines drawn through my previous post. I retract nothing. Is that you, Pete?

  337. dave December 17th, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    Yes, I gave cash some credit for getting CC here – no doubt he did some recruiting in the process. But you missed the main crux of my argument which was the reliance on aj over five years and his willingness to allow aj to determine is fate and possibly his legacy in NY. That is a lot to ask of a player with AJ’s lets say questionable history and character.

    I also talk for much of the post about signing cameron and pettitte over tex – for the same amount of money next year and the lack of a better option for right field in the free agent market in 2010. Tex is nine years and the two above is only one but tex lowers the age of the team, improves defense, atheleticism, lineup, balance, power, obp, pitches/PA, depth of bench and various other tangible and intangible measurements. Pettitte and cameron can be easily replaced in house by far cheaper and likely just as decent options. 20 million IMO is far far too much for 1 year of an aging center fielder with some defensive prowess and a little power and a fourth or fifth starter. Tex represents an upgrade in almost every category for the same price in 2009. He is 28 making him 36 by the deals conclusion still fully capable of playing solid ball. All tex’s indications of success have been gradually improving every single season despite his fluctuation among teams, leagues and opposing pitchers. His K total is decreasing while his walks have risen drastically. His OPS+ has risen from 102 to 131 to 151 within 5 years. He has had 4 seasons with more than 300 total bases and hit at least 30 homers every season since his second. Despite slight decreases in homeruns, his doubles have improved to over 40 per season so his slg remains constant. He likely would have won three or four gold gloves had he stayed in one league the last two seasons. Then, of course there is his post season performance with the angels last season- 467 avg 550 obp in 15 at bats. Small sample size but he clearly was not intimidated in his playoff debut.

  338. Ed - CC and Wang, the Dynamite Duo! December 17th, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    bru -

    because I posted the article that Furcal resigned with the Dodgers? or is it because your video game trades **isn’t going** to come true so you post it up and feel special about it? Yeh sure, I will shut up.

  339. Espresso December 17th, 2008 at 5:44 pm

    I don’t think it will be hard to replace Giambi’s production. Give my Grandma a cortisone shot in her back and you get the OBP right back. I don’t see anyone on the roster replacing Abreu 1 for 1. If Nady can have a solid year he might put up numbers like Abreu, but I doubt he’ll see the # pitches. Abreu is still a free agent for that matter. I’m not sold on Nady in right.

    The only stat that really matters for an offense is runs. Giambi had 96 RBI batting behind Damon, Jeter and Arod. I know all three of them were hurt at some point, but his bat won’t be missed. Matsui should be more than able to drive in as many runs, whether he does it with the long ball or by hard hit doubles is irrelevant. He will put the ball in play, and most importantly he will continue to do that in high pressure situations. You can’t be a great clutch hitter if you aren’t a great hitter. How many games might have been pulled out last year if, with men on we had a guy capable hitting to all fields with less power than Giambi and his golf/pull shot. I would take Matsui and/or Posada (depending on how much time either can be in the field) driving it to the gaps consistently over Giambi’s all or nothing approach any day.

  340. PAT M. December 17th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

    The Mick, wins the Triple Crown ( 1965 ) at the age of 25….56 hr’s in Yankee Stadium…I guess he’d get A-Rod money and then some…..

  341. heyya December 17th, 2008 at 6:53 pm

    I’m curious, what drove Cashman to sign A.J. for 5 years? To clear things up, I want him on our team. However, 5 years is over the top. I don’t trust him over 5 years, or, let’s say, I haven’t seen enough from him to sign him for that long. I think we should have signed him for 2 yeas, preferably 1 year with another year option, and if he didn’t want that, than let him go.

    A.J. is too much of a question. At his highest potential he’s a absolutely great pitcher, but I can see him crumbling under the pressure from us fans. That’s why seeing how well he does in his first year in New York is important.

  342. Thomas December 17th, 2008 at 7:12 pm

    MANNY MANNY MANNY!

  343. Mannie December 17th, 2008 at 8:13 pm

    I say y waste the money on manny! Break the bank and bring big tex in! (added by Mobile using Mippin)

  344. drew December 17th, 2008 at 11:49 pm

    how many times will pete call sabathia “the big lefty” this year?

  345. Cheap Lebron Shoes For Sale August 18th, 2014 at 10:24 pm

    Along with the changes in the concept of clothing and fashion cycle, it is now in fashion neutral wind become more popular clothing trend.

  346. kd 6 Shoes August 19th, 2014 at 7:18 am

    In terms of color, you should better to choose dark color which can concentrate people’s attention.

  347. http://www.wonews.com/common/air-max.aspx August 21st, 2014 at 7:57 pm

    Because of this reason, average income of people prefers to buy cheap leather jackets.

  348. Cheap Jordan 13 Shoes September 1st, 2014 at 6:39 pm

    Ash keeps reinventing and reintroducing new styles. So there is always a wide range to choose from.

  349. Kobe Bryant Shoes September 3rd, 2014 at 6:51 am

    The sneakers and replica christian louboutin sneakers both equally defines the substantial superior type and superior which continues to be continuous to the persons or customers.

  350. http://pencerdd.com/scripts/cheapkobeshoes.htm September 3rd, 2014 at 5:27 pm

    As we all know, When buying shoes it’s important to keep in mind the comfort.

  351. http://caslowpitch.com/team/cheap-nike-foamposite.aspx September 10th, 2014 at 5:44 am

    People pick the size of their Sale Designer Purses according to their desires. And a great Cheap HandBag should flatter you and hide some of your flaws.

  352. http://www.labelsdirect.com/jscripts/cheap-nike-foamposite.aspx September 10th, 2014 at 8:57 pm

    An option is to purchase such dresses from fashion store offering high quality prom dresses .

  353. Adidas Adizero Rose September 12th, 2014 at 7:24 am

    Lucchese – Women’s 1883 FashionCrafted by hand in Texas Lucchese boots are thought to be the finest western boots available. These women’s Fashion boots from the 1883 collection are crafted from smooth full grain leather and feature a pointed toe with intricate hand embroidered colored accent stitching on the toe and shaft. Double stitch accented pull straps.

  354. timberland men classic September 15th, 2014 at 5:27 am

    A resident of Windsong Care Center on Brookmont Road said someone stole $60 from her room Jan. 14.

  355. louboutin femme 2013 suzuki s cross September 20th, 2014 at 7:41 am

    Prior to joining Saks, Sadove was with General Foods USA from 1975 1991 and Bristol Myers Squibb Company from 1991 2002, where he headed the company beauty care and nutritionals division. and re launched the Herbal Essences brand into a $700 million business.

  356. guide des tailles chaussures louboutin September 21st, 2014 at 8:55 pm

    Note: There is a Seat Belt Law in Kentucky and on Fort Knox (includes passengers) and a requirement for child restraint seats for children 40 inches and under. This is strictly enforced.

Leave a comment below


Sponsored by:
 

Search

    Advertisement

    Follow

    Mobile

    Read The LoHud Yankees Blog on the go by navigating to the blog on your smartphone or mobile device's browser. No apps or downloads are required.

Advertisement

Place an ad

Call (914) 694-3581