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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


There’s still a void in the rotation

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 30, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The ideal situation for the Yankees would be to get at least 950 innings from their starting pitchers in 2009.

The Rays (973.1), Red Sox (966.2), White Sox (998.1) and Angels (1,012) were around that number last season and made it into the playoffs. The Yankees got only 898.1 innings from their starters. How the rotation performs pretty much determines the course of the season.

The Yankees were in trouble when Chien-Ming Wang went down in June and were finished off when Joba Chamberlain joined him on the disabled list. That led to all manner of riffraff taking the mound.

So, how can they go about getting to 950 innings this season?

Put down CC Sabathia for 225 innings. It’s unreasonable to expect more than that. Put down A.J. Burnett for 190. Given his history, it’s hard to expect more. Figure Wang for 200. Chamberlain will be limited to around 140 or so.

That’s 755. So where are those extra 200 innings coming from? Team officials have said they’re ready to draw the line on spending and that Andy Pettite missed his chance. But the rotation is no place to suddenly get a financial conscience.

In theory, Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Alfredo Aceves could give you those 200 innings. But that assumes the other four starters stay healthy and do what is expected. That’s a big assumption.

The Yankees don’t just need a No. 5 starter. They need a No. 6 and No. 7 starter. Joba will need a break. You don’t want to abuse Sabathia. Burnett is Burnett. Wang is coming off a serious injury.

Pettitte declined last season. But he would be a worthy No. 5 starter in that he knows how to pitch in the AL and he’s comfortable in New York. He would give the Yankees a big chunk of those needed innings and allow the other starters to blend in when needed.

Of course Andy has to be willing to take a pay cut and a one-year deal. It’s a two-way street at this point in his career.

The Yankees have taken dramatic steps to get better. But they’re leaving open a trap door for no reason.

 
 

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415 Responses to “There’s still a void in the rotation”

  1. Michael Kei (Igawa) December 30th, 2008 at 11:50 am

    *Erik Bedard*

  2. ham fighters December 30th, 2008 at 11:50 am

    luv ya andy! but…

    $7.5M plus incentives is what we can afford for a #4

    take it and get ready for ST!

  3. kd December 30th, 2008 at 11:50 am

    how many innings could sheets give you?

  4. MP December 30th, 2008 at 11:52 am

    well put. the worst thing we did last year was having so much hubris that we could rely on the kids for the whole year. you need innings eaters. there is a reason why the sox keep dragging wakefields corpse out there.

    mets and yankees both went into last year with not enough arms to fill up the innings.

    great post

  5. harwood December 30th, 2008 at 11:55 am

    Paging Dr. Mussina

  6. Frank December 30th, 2008 at 11:59 am

    I agree 100% with you Pete. Although I wanted the extra spot to go to Hughes, we can’t expect him to be able to throw 200+ innings…

    Andy would be perfect for the job, but he isn’t worth 16 mill per year at this point in his career. I would’ve offered him 12, but I don’t know if he would’ve taken that either.

  7. Peter Abraham December 30th, 2008 at 11:59 am

    Stop with Bedard already. He has hip and shoulder issues. Nothing worse for a pitcher. Why do people keep wanting the Yanks to get injured players?

  8. harwood December 30th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    Matsui will have a better 09 then Bedard.

  9. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    “Why do people keep wanting the Yanks to get injured players?”

    So that they have something to complain about. :P

  10. Vrsce December 30th, 2008 at 12:06 pm

    Perhaps that is why Pettitte is taking so long.

  11. YankeeRay December 30th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

    Well put. Pettite is a must this week then we can figure out how to improve or revamp our OF as those options will still be there next week. Get it done already as this gives us much more flexibility to make other moves.

  12. 89 December 30th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

    Not for nothin…Bedard has burned everyone multiple times.

    But Matsui for Bedard? I’m willing to take that risk I think…

  13. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

    “I would’ve offered him 12, but I don’t know if he would’ve taken that either.”

    I think he would have balked at it before, but now, he should be jumping at it. It’s not even about whether he can get more from another team. He doesn’t want to go to another team. He wants to finish his career as a Yankee. After watching the moves the team made this off season, you’d think he’d be dying to be on the team. The question is can his ego handle the pay cut. If I were Cash, I’d up the offer to $12mil and get it done. It’s only 2mil. They won’t even miss it.

  14. drd December 30th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    Well said pete,,,we need a reliable horse.
    Injuries WILL happen…give Andy 10 mill plus incentives…hes predictable,,,others arent..
    yes Bedard was great,,,he’s hurt!

  15. Noreaster December 30th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

    After the way the Yankees are operating this winter, I have to believe that they will let Andy come back at 10MM. The only question is will he come back or call it a career? He’d make a great number 4 and allow Phil, Ian and Alfredo fill in as necessary.

  16. jason December 30th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

    I have seen a few Mussina’s.
    I happen to think that is a brilliant idea – probably even better than Pettite at this point.
    What is the probability the Yanks can convince him to come back with a really legit shot at a World Series ring?

  17. vin December 30th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    “The Yankees don’t just need a No. 5 starter. They need a No. 6 and No. 7 starter.”

    Exactly the problem last year. The #6 and 7 starters became the #3 and 4. Let’s never forget that Rasner had more starts than anyone not named Pettitte or Mussina. That’s obviously not how you make the playoffs.

  18. S.o.S.(GO COLTS!!) December 30th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

    “Why do people keep wanting the Yanks to get injured players?”

    Would this be the wrong time to ask the Yanks to resign Pavano Pete?

  19. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 12:12 pm

    “I have seen a few Mussina’s.
    I happen to think that is a brilliant idea – probably even better than Pettite at this point.
    What is the probability the Yanks can convince him to come back with a really legit shot at a World Series ring?”

    The Yankees need a horse, not someone who is probably going to give them 5 innings each start. Moose is done. It’s time to turn the page.

  20. RonH December 30th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

    Pete’s breakdown makes a lot of sense. The only 2 guys on the FA market who would seem the best bets for 200 innings are Pettitte and Lowe, and I think we can be pretty sure Lowe isn’t coming. Somewhat surprising Andy hasn’t given any indication he’d back down at all from the $16 mil number.

  21. YankeeRay December 30th, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    jason
    December 30th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
    I have seen a few Mussina’s.
    I happen to think that is a brilliant idea – probably even better than Pettite at this point.
    What is the probability the Yanks can convince him to come back with a really legit shot at a World Series ring?
    ——-

    Interesting concept but I think he is done. He would demand the same as Pettite and it’s a toss up of who would do better.
    I like having another lefty.

  22. 89 December 30th, 2008 at 12:14 pm

    I’d rather unload Matsui’s salary and gamble on Bedard, than pay Pettitte more than 10 million…

  23. SJ44 December 30th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    I don’t think they are going as is for no good reason.

    They are giving Pettitte a lot of time to make up his mind.

    However, if by the time they re-open their offices (January 5), he is still a “no”, I have to believe they will shop his 10 million and go in another direction.

    If you are Ben Sheets, and you need to sign a one year contract to boost your stock again (assuming his medicals are in order, of course), do you take a one year, 10 million dollar deal with the Yankees, or go to Texas or Milwaukee?

    With the team the Yankees are putting together, if Sheets came to NY and pitched well, he would be in line for huge dollars next year in free agency.

    That’s why I think next week will be the end of the Pettitte Saga. He will either take the deal or they will move on.

    More than Manny (who isn’t coming to NY), they need another starting pitcher. If its not Andy, it will be somebody in January.

    I’m not of the belief they will have Kennedy, Hughes and Aceves battle it out for the final spot in the rotation. That falls under “Bubba Crosby will be our CF” talk of a few years ago with me. Like the Bubba talk, I’ll believe it when I see it.

  24. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    Mussina would ask for much more than 10 million a year. He’s coming off of a 20 win season and others have made bank with less production.

  25. Yankees 'N More December 30th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    I actually don’t believe the Yankees are leaving any trap doors open… At least not yet.

    The reason, I believe, nothing has been nailed down for #5 is because it is an EXTREME buyers’ market right now.

    Wasn’t Lowe supposed to have “fallen into place” by now??? Wasn’t Manny??? Wasn’t Perez???

    I know Manny isn’t a pitcher, but guys like he and Abreu and Giambi, etc, only serve to make the point… Nobody is spending any money.

    Outside of the Yankees with the big 3, look who has been signed, and look at the contracts they were forced to accept.

    And now there is word that a guy like Abreu might be forced to accept $8 million a year.

    To this point, the Yankees’ offseason has been handled brilliantly. And if they show a little more patience here, I think it could get more brilliant still.

  26. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 30th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

    Having Hughes, Kennedy, and Aceves is a nice feeling of depth, but none of them should be slotted as the 5th starter.

    Pettitte needs to figure out whats important…money or winning. I never had him pegged as a greedy cat and if he thinks he is worth $16 million he is sorely mistaken.

    Either way, I wish we could get an answer from him asap. He is probably warming up to the idea of pitching in LA…you know Torre and he are talking behind the scenes.

    Figure it out Andy. For the first time in your career you are REALLY annoying me.

  27. Providence December 30th, 2008 at 12:18 pm

    Great post, Pete.
    YankeeRay: I don’t see Mussina happening either, but it’s hardly a toss-up between he and Pettite; I think any GM would take Mussina in an instant. Let’s not forget that while his stuff is diminished, Mussina is still coming off a 20 win season. Pettite’s stuff is diminished, and he’s not coming off a 20 win season (this from someone who counts Pettite -along with Tino- as his favorite Yankee of the last fifteen years).

  28. Peter Abraham December 30th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    There’s a better chance Whitey Ford comes back than Mike Mussina.

    There is not one sliver of Mike’s personality that would allow him to unretire. That is so not how he rolls.

  29. SJ44 December 30th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    Bedard may not be able to pitch until June.

    He had surgery for a frayed labrum (not good) and has a degenerative hip condition. He’s not giving anybody innings next year.

    Add to it, he is one of the most miserable human beings inhabiting a major league clubhouse.

    Wanting him on the team is sheer lunacy. He’s not only injured, he makes Randy Johnson look like Mr. Sunshine.

    I wouldn’t touch Bedard if they gave him to the Yankees. I sure as heck wouldn’t trade Hideki Matsui for him.

  30. jason December 30th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    Mussina was a better pitcher than Pettite last year. I don’t know the numbers but they were probably roughly similar in number of innings per start. They are also probably roughly similar in terms of injury risk.
    Mussina does make them right hand heavy but if he really transformed as a pitcher that is a gain relative to Pettite.
    Also, although this spot is probably slotted as a number 4 for innings, they will likely be a number 5 type pitcher and potentially out of the starting rotation (assuming health for everyone else) come playoff time.

  31. Gus G. December 30th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    What about a free agent like Braden Looper? He’s not ideal but he would cost no more than an Andy Pettitte and he pitched 200 innings for the Cards last year. He wasn’t offered arbitration so he wouldn’t cost a draft pick. ERA a shade over 4… not stellar given the NL to AL difference but again not horrid either. I think he’d atleast be worth a flier… only catch is he would cost more in years than salary. Maybe a three year deal as opposed to Andys one? It’s not ideal but if Pettitte doesn’t work out…

  32. Alex December 30th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

    Sign Jon Garland, he’s solid for 200+ innings, 4.50 ERA, 12+ wins and a contract/salary way less than Pettitte/Lowe/Perez

  33. jason December 30th, 2008 at 12:20 pm

    Pete – I don’t know Mussina at all!
    The allure of another ring is not enough of a draw for him to return?

  34. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 30th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    Ya, stop it with the Mussina garble. You guys should know him better than this. He is NOT coming back.

  35. Gus G. December 30th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    “There is not one sliver of Mike’s personality that would allow him to unretire. That is so not how he rolls.”
    —————————————————
    Do tractors roll or do they creep?

  36. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    “Figure it out Andy. For the first time in your career you are REALLY annoying me.”

    Again, look at it from his perspective. It can’t be easy to take such a huge pay cut. I think that $12mil is reasonable. Cash needs to pony up another $2mil and I bet Andy takes it.

  37. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 12:22 pm

    From prior thread (didn’t see the new post):

    Question, why would Hanley Ramirez be available? And why would anyone think he’d be okay in a position other than SS? Or is this just a joke, because the “Manny” Ramirez talk is played out? :)

    While I agree Cashman may not be finished, I don’t see anything being done unless it’s a knock-your-socks-off kind of deal being offered to him. I don’t necessarily believe he is shopping around his “surplus” outfielders/DHs. What is surplus in December could be very, very valuable in February/March/April.

    Anyone else read that the Mets might be interested in a trade for Andruw Jones? How crazy is that when Abreu is available on the FA market for cash only? Abreu seems exactly the kind of player that would appeal to the Mets. Unless they’re not interested in 3-year commitments, either. Sounds like Bobby might have to set his sights on a shorter-term contract if he wants a job. If only he wasn’t afraid of the wall…..

    Went to the Rangers game last night. My first hockey game. So much more fun in person than on tv. We saw 3 fights, a guy go down and a stretcher called out (though he walked – oops, skated – off the ice on his own), and 8 goals being scored (the ninth happened after we left). Oh, and lest I forget, we also saw a human hockey puck race. Don’t ask. :lol:

    Hey, Andy, come on down!!!!!

  38. Chris from NJ December 30th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    I think this holdout is more posturing by the Hendricks brothers than something on Andy’s part, Andy pays these men to get him the best possible deal, that is what they are trying to do. In the end I think Andy will accept the Yankees offer, it is more than a fair offer, and I think Andy with a proper winter conditioning program can be a better pitcher than he showed in ’08.

    I agree with you, Peter, that it seems a tad foolish to leave the 5 hole up to chance at this point, given all of the other spending. Andy is the ideal solution, but I’m comfortable trotting one of the kids out there as a #5, both Hughes and Kennedy have looked very solid in winter ball, and Aceves has a strong enough arm to give us innings. It is a good leverage position for the yankees, and i’m comfortable as a fan with either situation.

  39. harwood December 30th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    Erik Bedard injuries just this year.

    07/05/2008 15 days out Left shoulder surgery – out for season
    06/20/2008 0 days out Back spasms
    04/09/2008 15 days out Left hip inflammation

    At one point he told reporters he had a tear to his labrum. Seattle shot that down and wouldnt let him talk about it anymore. He then had shoulder surgery to remove a cyst and ‘clean up muscle fraying.’

    Thats not all this guy was shut down for a while in the minors for a significant elbow ligament injury.

  40. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    Not only is Andy being asked to take a rather large pay cut, BUT he is being asked to supply no fewer innings than he supplied last season, AND he has witnessed copious sums of money being paid out to the 3 new free agent this off-season. If I were him, I couldn’t help but wonder, am I not worth at least $2 to $3 million more? Or aren’t they sure they really want me?

  41. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 30th, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    Laura,

    In this market, $10 million is a deal Pettitte should take happily. I don’t necessarily buy into the whole “Pettitte owes the Yankees cuz of HGH, etc etc” argument, but again, if he wants to win and acknowledges what he is being asked to do: be the 4th or 5th starter, then he will realize that $10 million is fair.

    If he can be locked down for $12, I guess I’d entertain it because you don’t want to squabble over $2 million, but I just don’t think he’s a $12 mill pitcher anymore.

  42. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

    “Add to it, he is one of the most miserable human beings inhabiting a major league clubhouse.”

    SJ I thought that title went to Randy. We’ve handled pretty bad clubhouse guys in the past. But if he’s not going to be ready till June. There is no point in looking at him.

  43. Januz December 30th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

    It seems no one is satisfied with the Yankees offseason. They brought in the Top two starters and the top hitter, and it is not enough. I want to see if Phil Hughes can be the number 5 starter and Mark Melancon can be the set up guy in the bullpen. I am willing to bet, that if worst came to worst, they can always find a Paul Byrd type in the month of July.

  44. Artie A December 30th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

    Pete you have this very right. Pettite is still out there and 14 wins is still significant. The Yanks should offer Andy 12 million and be done with it. I can’t believe they would stand pat with Hughes given last year. One other point to be made…if they go with Joba and Phil for 4 and 5, it still looks like a youth gamble all over again. Not that much headway made between last year and what is currently slated. The difference is the few wins and starts of Joba versus Iain Kennedy? Not much difference in my books.

  45. jade December 30th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

    Who’s the second lefty in the Yankees Bullpen? Phil Coke?

  46. Thomas December 30th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

    Yankees had 81 million off the books and now with the new signings and increases to current players, they added about 66 million. That leave about 15 million to match last years payroll. You could add 2/3 million to Andy’s offer and still be “under” the payroll, if that is the goal. Make in full of incentives if you have to but 13 million for one year should be there for Andy. If he turns that down, move on!

  47. darkmoonfire December 30th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

    I can understand that Andy is disappointed with the drop in salary. However, I doubt that the 10.5 million is the Yankees final offer. I’m sure there’s a little room for leeway. Maybe 12 million. Maybe an option for 2010. Something, surely.

    I think we really need him back for all the reasons Pete has stated. Plus, we really should make the post season and we know what Pettitte can do there. He’s definitely our very best option for 5th starter.

    I think also the Yankees are the best team for Andy too. While I’m sure the Dodgers would love him, and he’s obviously a friend in Joe Torre, he’s a better chance of winning yet another ring with the Yankees. Despite the hgh thing, he’s still very much a fan favorite (myself for sure).

    Andy, sign. Please!

  48. tantron willoughby December 30th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

    Andy has disappointed the fans with his HgH use aka cheating, and his money grubbing ways. He apparently takes his lessons from Clemens with regard to money management, drugs, performance and attitude even though he likes to pretend to be a “Christian”. Andrew would be better off to leave his pride at the door and take the 10 million and keep his mouth shut. How soon he forgets the NYY supported the cheating drug abuser.

  49. jennifer December 30th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

    Bedard is supposed to be a jerk as well.

  50. EdWhitson December 30th, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    A couple of years ago when Bedard had a great season in BAL I remember reading interviews with him. He basically said he hates the press, hates doing interviews and would never play in NYC b/c of the extreme press and pressure. That coupled with his injuries is a reason to pass.

  51. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

    FWIW I didn’t want Pettitte back at all. I don’t feel the Yankees owe him anything. Baseball is a business. They brought him back and for whatever reason he was terrible when it counted. If he was hurt he should have admitted it and let the Yankees do whatever they had to with their kids from the minors. Who knows, maybe they could have cobbled enough wins from them to make the playoffs! So the Yankees should bring Andy back why? Because they believe he still can help them based on what?

    He did NOT

  52. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    continued

    He did NOT (in my estimation) earn $16 million last year. He is a year older and certainly past his prime. I think he was lucky to get any offer at all. If he takes it, sop be it. If not, we can probably get as worthy a performance from below, and get to see what our kids have to offer.

  53. bubba December 30th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

    Sheets + Hughes =>200 inn.

  54. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    “It seems no one is satisfied with the Yankees offseason. ”

    *AHEM*!

    I was more than satisfied with CC and Burnett. If you are not satsified at this point, you are nothing more than a spoiled whiney little brat. Try rooting for the Royals or some other team who cannot afford to put together a top-notch team. You don’t deserve to root for the Yankees!

    Just sayin’

  55. Tom December 30th, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    Bedard labrum injury is bad news. If the Yankees trade for him it would be a disaster.

    I’ve posted this article by Will Carroll but, it’s worth it:

    “”frayed” labrum (there’s no difference between a fray and a tear).”

    “if pitchers with torn labrums were horses, they’d be destroyed.”

    “Of the 36 major-league hurlers diagnosed with labrum tears in the last five years, only midlevel reliever Rocky Biddle has returned to his previous level. Think about that when your favorite pitcher comes down with labrum trouble: He has a 3 percent chance of becoming Rocky Biddle.”
    http://www.slate.com/id/2100895/

  56. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

    “Andy has disappointed the fans with his HgH use aka cheating, and his money grubbing ways. He apparently takes his lessons from Clemens with regard to money management, drugs, performance and attitude even though he likes to pretend to be a “Christian”. Andrew would be better off to leave his pride at the door and take the 10 million and keep his mouth shut. How soon he forgets the NYY supported the cheating drug abuser.”

    *AMEN!*

  57. vin December 30th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    “What about a free agent like Braden Looper? He’s not ideal but he would cost no more than an Andy Pettitte and he pitched 200 innings for the Cards last year. ”

    It’s a known fact that Dave Duncan works miracles with mediocre pitchers… and if that was the best he could do with Looper… well, I wouldn’t touch him with a 10′ pole.

  58. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

    Trisha,
    I totally agree. He under performed for the salary he made last year and the Yanks obviously didnt ask for a refund. So this year they are paying him what he deserves and if thats not good enough than get in line with Bernie.

    I think if Penny got 5 mil with incentives maybe we can work the same type of deal for Sheets. 1 year 8 mil plus incentives. Use the money with someone that has a higher up side.

  59. crawdaddie December 30th, 2008 at 12:42 pm

    Pete,
    Unless you have talked with Cashman first hand, perhaps Pettitte has already told Cashman “yes” over the holidays. Next week, we’ll probably know one way or another.

    Also, I think Joba pitches more than 140 innings next season. I think his total innings if healthy will be between 150-160 innings.

  60. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

    “If not, we can probably get as worthy a performance from below, and get to see what our kids have to offer.”

    We saw this season what our kids had to offer, which was nothing.

    Andy is a gamer, who pitched injured the second half because his team needed him to. That alone should be enough for Cash to find another $2mil to add to the offer. If the Yankees don’t budge off of the $10mil, that tells me that they really don’t want Andy back and don’t have the cajones to just come right out and say so.

  61. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) December 30th, 2008 at 12:44 pm

    “The Yanks should offer Andy 12 million and be done with it.”

    He should take 10 million or watch Phil Coke grab his spot or watch Hughes/Sheets combine for 200 IP.

  62. MoDemDown December 30th, 2008 at 12:45 pm

    To the people above who are hoping to see Mussinna come back. Have you given any consideration to the fact that he would require a multi-year contract? Hughes and Kennedy not in the plans?

  63. vin December 30th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

    Good link, Tom. It’s a little dated (2004), so I’d be interested in seeing an update on players who have returned to the ML level. It’s interesting that Gil Meche was included in the article. Of all the names mentioned, he’s had the most success post-surgery.

  64. rodg12 December 30th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

    If Hanley Ramirez is indeed available…..I offer the Marlins Joba and AJax and see if they bite. As much as I love Joba and hope he turns into a bona fide ace…we’re talking about Hanley Ramirez, one of the top 5 players in the game. An absolute stud who could patrol CF for the Yanks for the next 10 years. I have no doubt that an athlete of his caliber could make the transition from SS to CF (see Upton, B.J.). Shoot, I’d probably throw in Kennedy too. That offer would be really tough for the Marlins to turn down…Joba/AJax/Kennedy for Ramirez. Yanks line-up becomes….

    Damon
    Jeter
    H. Ramirez
    A Rod
    Teix
    Matsui
    Posada
    Cano
    Swisher/Nady

    Rotation:
    CC
    Wang
    AJ
    Pettitte (give him the 12 mill and call it even)
    Hughes

    Wow, just wow!!!

  65. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

    “If the Yankees don’t budge off of the $10mil, that tells me that they really don’t want Andy back and don’t have the cajones to just come right out and say so.”

    I don’t see it that way at all. The Yankees are telling Pettitte that they see him worth $10 million and no more, that he didn’t earn $16 million last year, and they are not willing to take the chance with his storied injuries to overpay him again. Good for them. Finally they are willing to stop living in the past with some of these players. With his lying about his HGH useage, he’s lucky they even called him back last year.

  66. Jeremy December 30th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

    Beyond all the excellent reasons already posted for avoiding Bedard, the Mariners paid a big price to get him in the first place and aren’t going to give him away for free.

    There is a trend among commenters on this blog of advocating that we trade for problem players who other teams are stuck with, like Andruw Jones. I will never understand it. The Yankees are not a charity for teams that regret their acquisitions. The Mariners are stuck with Bedard after giving up Adam Jones and more for him. They have to deal with his fragility, both physical and emotional. Why sacrifice our players to make him our problem?

    As for Pettitte, I think the reason the Yankees are taking their time is because they know they can. Pettitte isn’t going to the Astros this time around and no other team will pay him $10 million. I would not be surprised if Pettitte and the team have an agreement that establishes how long both sides have to make a decision. Things seem awkward on our end because we don’t know what’s really happening. In reality I bet things are quite different.

    If Pettitte chooses not to sign for whatever reason, the Yankees will remain the team with the most money available to sign a fifth starter. They also have a surplus of relief pitchers to trade for back-end starters. There’s always the possibility that Hughes, Kennedy, or Aceves really will become a decent back-end starter this season. So there’s no cause for alarm just yet.

    In the end, I think Pettitte takes the $10 million and eats innings just as hoped.

  67. Zach in Port Jeff December 30th, 2008 at 12:47 pm

    I love the term “riffraff”.

    I’m gonna try and use it as often as possible today.

  68. Bill In Fresno Ca December 30th, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    Paging Brian Sabian, please pick up the white courtesy phone…
    Yankee Fan… with your glut of outfielders I’m thinking a trade for Johnathan Sanchez in San Fransisco is in the works..
    Now with the acquisition of Red Ass Randy Johnson, it gives us some room to deal as long as Lowery comes back strong…

    In fact you may even hear Lowery tossed around…

    Watch for it, there will be rumblings..

  69. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 12:50 pm

    “There is a trend among commenters on this blog of advocating that we trade for problem players who other teams are stuck with, like Andruw Jones. I will never understand it. The Yankees are not a charity for teams that regret their acquisitions. The Mariners are stuck with Bedard after giving up Adam Jones and more for him. They have to deal with his fragility, both physical and emotional. Why sacrifice our players to make him our problem?”

    Excellent comment!! I agree 100%. Not only is Bedard a miserable person, he also doesn’t seem to like baseball much (his great love is Hockey). How is a guy like that going to manage playing in NY? Guess what? He wouldn’t. He’d hate it and be miserable and make everyone else around him miserable. We have enough drama in the clubhouse as it is; we don’t need more.

  70. Baseball Guy December 30th, 2008 at 12:50 pm

    $10 mil is more than other teams will probably offer.

    Last year Andy was paid to be a top of the rotation guy.

    This year he’s being asked to be a #4.

    $10 mil is still a lot of money.

    iYankees.com is reporting a RUMOR of Nady to the Reds for Aaron Harang or even Bronson Arroyo. Either would be a GREAT fit.

    If Pettitte does not sign, that’s the type of move I’d make. Get a solid #4 innings guy. Jon Garland is also a nice fit. A solid pitcher is all they need there. Depending on Joba, Hughes, Acevdes, and Kennedy for spots 4 & 5 is a huge risk.

    Also – the idea of adding bad guys to the clubhouse because “we’ve had them before” makes little sense. What did the Yankees win with Sheffield, Randy Johnson, etc… ???

    Also, Joe Torre is no longer the manager, so the fact that he may or may not have handeled them is no longer the case.

  71. Mister Delaware December 30th, 2008 at 12:50 pm

    Agreed with Alex at 12:19. If Garland’s market completely evaporates and he’s looking at a one year deal to come free again in a soft 2010 class, there are worse options. He’s not good, but he’s a consistent innings eater (which we need more than upside at this point) and has never been truly horrific.

  72. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

    First of all, very few of the highly paid Yankees actually did “earn” their salaries last season. Just sayin’.

    Second, I think Pettitte is worth more than $10 million. He is a lefty veteran pitcher with playoff experience who gives a team innings and will take the ball under almost any circumstance.

    If they would even consider giving Sheets $10 million, not knowing for certain if he could pitch one inning for them; if they were willing to entertain a 4-year contract for Derek Lowe, who gives innings but who is not, in my opinion, as solid a pitcher as Andy is in the AL East, why is there such a reluctance to give Andy a little more than the original $10 million offered?

    No one “owes” anyone here. But I guess the question is, do they really value what Andy has to offer them? I think they’re undervaluing and trying to get a hometown discount. And Andy (with or through his agents) is trying to get closer to market value. I really hope they reach a compromise. I certainly don’t see why Andy wouldn’t be willing to take $10 mil with mucho incentives or why the Yankees wouldn’t be willing to offer that. It’s totally confusing.

    But, it is true, as someone posted above, this may already be worked out and just waiting for the resumption of business to make known publicly.

  73. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes December 30th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

    “It seems no one is satisfied with the Yankees offseason. ”

    I don’t think this is the case at all…people simply wonder how the Yankees will round out their rotation which, at this point, is the final task to make this team capable of getting the ring.

  74. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) December 30th, 2008 at 12:52 pm

    Can I get a Jonathan Sanchez in NY for Nady…please LORD !

  75. BrooklynPaulie December 30th, 2008 at 12:53 pm

    Ben Sheets.

    http://bleacherreport.com/arti.....ben-sheets

  76. mdh December 30th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

    let’s get Giambi back on the juice and see what he can do from the mound. worth itttttt

  77. Chris December 30th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

    They are idiots if they dont sign Andy. It would be very stupid not to because there WILL be injuries and we’re gonna be in the same predicament as last year with having to rely to on either kids or scrubs such as ponson.

  78. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 12:56 pm

    “If they would even consider giving Sheets $10 million, not knowing for certain if he could pitch one inning for them; if they were willing to entertain a 4-year contract for Derek Lowe, who gives innings but who is not, in my opinion, as solid a pitcher as Andy is in the AL East, why is there such a reluctance to give Andy a little more than the original $10 million offered?”

    It definitely has me scratching my head. They are more interested in unknown commodities than a 4 time World Champion who is already part of the Yankee family.

  79. Brad December 30th, 2008 at 12:58 pm

    Give Andy an $11.5M proposal as a final offer and remind him of last year and what he said about wanting to pitch in the new Stadium.
    It could be his final chance at another ring. Learning a new team over little money is plain senseless.

  80. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

    “I think they’re undervaluing and trying to get a hometown discount.”

    Doreen, I really don’t think that’s the case at all. The Yankees aren’t a team who seem reluctant to pay for talent. We might have to face that the Yankees feel that Andy Pettitte, at this point in time, is worth $10 mil and no more. By the way, I don’t see it as a huge insult to be offered $10 million dollars to play for a season when you are an injury-prone player (oh my back! oh my leg! oh my arm! back is stiff, sorry can’t pitch today!) and are 37 years old or whatever he is.

    Whatever the Yankees pay him doesn’t matter to me as it isn’t my money. If they had offered him $16 mil I would have thought they were crazy but again, it’s not my money. I respect what the Yankees are doing. It’s about time they get a little more financially accurate when they are dealing with players who are past their prime. Time to stop living in the past and paying based on yesteryear!

  81. Smarter than you December 30th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

    They should have signed Penny.

  82. Bobby December 30th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

    I was thinking about this: does anyone really think Joba will be capped at 140?

    I’m very much interested to see how they accomplish this unless he gets hurt or starts the year in the bullpen. And it’s pretty clear he won’t be starting the year in the pen. And of course, if he’s pitching well, they won’t just remove him from the rotation.

    Maybe they hold his pitch count down early in the year and skip him when it’s possible (though looking at the April/May schedule, there are few, if any, opportunities to fully skip a guy’s turn) but if he’s healthy, I think we’re looking more at 170-180 innings.

    I know the Verducci effect, reasoning for an innings cap, etc. but there seems to be a belief that relief innings are higher leverage than starter innings so 170-180 might not be unreasonable. I’m just interested to know how the team can logically accomplish capping him at 140. It might look plausible on paper, but when you think about it, there’s no realistic way he doesn’t go over that unless he’s hurt.

  83. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    “By the way, I don’t see it as a huge insult to be offered $10 million dollars to play for a season when you are an injury-prone player (oh my back! oh my leg! oh my arm! back is stiff, sorry can’t pitch today!) and are 37 years old or whatever he is.”

    When did Andy decline to take the ball last year? You are making it sound like he’s Carl Pavano.

  84. Gus G. December 30th, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    Nady for Harang? Yes please. Three of his past four years he gave 200+ innings and an ERA under 4. This past year it ballooned to 4.78 but it looks like he missed some starts so he could’ve possibly been pitching injured?

  85. jay destro December 30th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

    First choice would be Andy… second choice would be signing a guy to a one year deal in some reclamation project like Kris Benson and seeing what you can get out fo him at spring training. worst case is that you sign him to a minor league deal with an opt-out if he doesnt reach the majors.

  86. Chris from NJ December 30th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

    “I think they’re undervaluing and trying to get a hometown discount.”

    How can you be asking for a hometown discount when no one else is offering you more? Andy is a league average starter at this point in his career, yet he has been pretty durable. He really only missed that one season in Houston with elbow troubles, and last season he didn’t have a chance to go through his normal winter training because of Roger. I don’t think he’s worth more that $10 million honestly, but I think he has something left in the tank.

    But i have no problem trotting some of the kids out there as the 5th starter, one of the three of aceves,hughes, or kennedy is likely to step up to the plate. It’s not like we’re looking at a Rasner where you know what he is, these kids are young and have upside.

  87. Bobby December 30th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    I have a question:

    Does anyone actually see Joba being held at 140 IP?

    Think about it, unless he gets hurt, it’s impossible because:

    1) He’s not going to the pen again.
    2) They won’t take him out of the rotation or skip him if he’s pitching well.
    3) There are few, if any, opportunities to skip a guy a full turn in April and May, when you could skip him more easily.

    I’m guessing they just try to limit his pitch count to the 90s in April and May and he finishes around 170-180 innings. Yes, taking him out for a turn and letting Aceves/Kennedy/Giese/Andy Hawkins/Melido Perez/whoever else is alive and can throw and take his spot looks good on paper but when you get into the flow of the season it doesn’t seem like a realistic option.

  88. Chris from NJ December 30th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

    Oh, and I would take Nady for Harang in a heartbeat. Though don’t expect the same kind of numbers that he gave in Cincinatti, no pitcher to strike out several times a game.

  89. john December 30th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    Seriously, they will sign or get someone, they just feel Pettitte should get $10 and if he doesn’t want to sign get someone else for less. The market is now bad for all pitchers out there. Look at the incentive deal Penny signed. Heck the way Pettitte looked at times last year he might as well have been Pedro. Don’t get me wrong I want Andy and think he will bounce back, but he has to be reasonable and really this is becoming an ego thing once again.

  90. wandy yohnson December 30th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    I think Bedard would be the same kind of investment as Penny. Why not?

  91. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    Laura – Andy never declined to take the ball. I didn’t mean to make it sound that way. I was referring more to instances where he was unable to take the ball because his back stiffened up on him. But what also bothered me was the “allegation” at the end of the season that he was playing hurt. (I believe he is the one who alleged it.) I’ll tell you how I feel about players who play hurt – especially if their injuries are such that it has a dramatic effect on their ability to play; this would apply more to pitchers I would think since their performance on any given day can make or break a game.) If you are stinking out the joint because you are playing hurt but not telling anyone you are hurt, you are potentially killing your team. I know a lot of fans think it is awesome that a player will go out their hurt and all and still play the game. I’m not that way.

  92. Axel December 30th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

    This is a great post Pete, I totally agree. Pettitte would be my top choice as he think he would fit nicely into the rotation (2 lefties, 3 righties) and he’s a proven competitor. But he’s worth what the Yanks offered and I agree with their take or leave it attitude. Any chance the Yankees would go after Smoltz? I could see him being a good mentor to Joba, having transitioned between starting and relieving in his career..and it would piss off Red Sox Nation…can’t go wrong with that.

  93. 86w183 December 30th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    Harang had a really tough year last season, but he won’t be 31 til May and own 32 games with a 3.74 the two previous seasons.

    Arroyo is trending poorly… the last three years his ERA has gone from 3.29, to 4.23, to 4.77.

    Both are superior to Jonathan Sanchez right now, but I’d prefer Sanchez to Arroyo but of the three take Harang.

  94. Anthony December 30th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    I think I can guess when trisha started following baseball – circa 2004 when ARod came on? You seriously know nothing if you don’t think Pettitte is worth more than $12M and apparently think he is injury prone when he’s only missed significant time twice in his entire career of 14 seasons and only 4 of those seasons saw him pitch less than 200 innings. And why should we bring in a guy like Garland who hasn’t come up huge in big games for us the way Pettitte has in the past? So what that he pitched through pain down the stretch, would you rather have seen Kennedy take those starts? Do you think we would have stood a better chance than with Andy (who was also extremely unlucky in many of those games)? And there is definitely nothing wrong with wanting players back who we like and who are still capable of being significant producers. The only criticisms anyone can give about Andy is that he might try a little too hard for us sometimes by pitching through pain or using HgH to recover from injury more quickly. Please, give me 25 guys who want nothing more than to be on the field helping their teammates, even if they make poor decisions from time to time. I’ll take it.

  95. john December 30th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    Make a move to SF and pick up Jonathan Sanchez. Has good upside. Young Lefty. The lefties take a while to develop and he has had a few years now under his belt. Nady and a prospect to SF for Sanchez? Might be worth it and another young live arm and a second lefty no less.

  96. Albert December 30th, 2008 at 1:19 pm

    How about Mark Mulder? He is a lefthander 31 years old and would take 10 million or less.

  97. Yankee Jay December 30th, 2008 at 1:21 pm

    Stop with the Bedard talk, he’s a total disaster. Take it from someone who lives in Seattle. He’s a total jerk, hates the media, is injured, and won’t throw more than 100 pitches in a game even if he is healthy.

  98. Carl December 30th, 2008 at 1:22 pm

    I still think they’re getting Andy but I don’t think the problem’s as big as Pete makes it out to be.

    Because, think about it, does anyone really think Joba will be cut off at 140? Because:

    1) He won’t be going to the pen again.
    2) They wont take him out of the rotation for a period of time if he’s pitching well
    3) There are few, if any, opportunities to skip a guy a full turn when you look at the April/May schedule

    Realistically, I think we’re looking at his pitch count being limited to the 90s in April & May and ending up at 170-180 IP. Because although taking him out for a turn to use Kennedy/Aceves/Giese/whoever looks good on paper, when you get into the flow of the season, it’s not exactly a realistic option.

    I understand the Verduci effect and the reasoning for innings caps but there are some people who think relief innings are higher leverage innings and should be weighted accordingly. I think the Yankees will use this as their answer if people question him going over 140. Because no matter what way you look at it, there’s no logical way to cap him unless he gets hurt or is not pitching well.

  99. Yankee rick December 30th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

    I think Bedard would be the same kind of investment as Penny. Why not?

  100. Jeremy December 30th, 2008 at 1:27 pm

    The Reds won’t give up Harang for Nady. Harang had a bad 2008 after three very good seasons, and is just 30. He is owed over $25 million for the next two years. That’s a good contract and the Reds could acquire more for it than just Nady (who really isn’t anything special).

    Obviously, if we can get Harang without losing any name prospects, I would make that deal in a second, but I don’t think that’s feasible.

  101. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 1:29 pm

    I like Andy but he’s not be “loyal” to the Yanks, he wasn’t up front about the HGH..So why should they owe him something, he treated the Yanks as a business transaction with the 16mil, so now we treat him as a business transaction..10mil or we will find someone else..

    I agree NO BEDARD….there are plenty of better options, and giving them Hideki for him is ridiculous, we just helped the offense and defense with Tex, why would you get rid of Hideki, unless Mr Dreads is coming…:)

  102. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2008 at 1:29 pm

    Andy can get more than $10MM if he wants to go to the highest bidder. He may or may not be worth it but you are just fooling yourself if you think no team would be willing to go north of #10MM.

    The real question is Andy willing to go to whoever will pay him the most, and I think only Andy knows that.

    Personally, I’d be very surprised if Andy does not end up pitching for the Yanks, and also surprised if the Yanks aren’t willing to sweeten the offer some to get the deal done.

    Andy would be perfect as the #4, allowing Joba to pitch out of the fifth starter slot which would restrict his innings without having to skip his turn in the rotation.

  103. YankeeRay December 30th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

    10 mill to pettite with an incentive of 1 mill for every 25 innings over 150.
    If he reaches 175 then its 11 mill, 200 nets him 12 mill. If he goes off and throws 225 then he gets 13 mill.

    If he is worried that he will pitch the same innings for 6 mill less then a deal like this protects both sides.

    Sheets is intriguing but who says he will take a short term low money deal? He was the starter in the all star game and everyone is saying he will take less. The market will work itself out and he will get his money and at least 2-3 years.

  104. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) December 30th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

    -Give Andy an $11.5M proposal as a final offer and remind him of last year and- -what he said about wanting to pitch in the new Stadium-.

    How about 10 million take it or leave it.

  105. Chris V. December 30th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

    Trisha you are making some of the most idiotic statements I’ve ever seen on this board. Andy has had two years below 175 innings pitched in his career. He has averaged 215 for his career. Even last year, when supposedly he was terrible he was still a league average. He’ll be 37 and should give the Yankees 200+ innings and be slightly above average. Plus he’s a lefty and has a ton of postseason experience. 12 million is more than fair. Lowe is going to get a multi year deal at 15-17 and I’d take Andy over Lowe any day of the week.

  106. harwood December 30th, 2008 at 1:40 pm

    “2) They won’t take him out of the rotation or skip him if he’s pitching well.”

    No way. They will closely manage his innings. He is a franchise player. If anything they might limit him a little more so they can get a few Post season starts out of him.

  107. 86w183 December 30th, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    I think Pettite has hurt his image with his pouting over a proposed pay cut. Time to man up and take it or say no and move on. I’d like to see him back for a year, but enough already.

    Albert– Mark Mulder for less than $ 10 mill… ya think!??! The guy has pitched a total 106 innings in three years with a 7.73 ERA. Only 12 2/3 of those innings in the last two years with a 12.08 ERA. I wouldn’t offer him a dime.

  108. Brian NYY December 30th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

    Andy Pettite for 10 million is a teal for him. He did not live up to his 16 mm in either of the last 2 years. He should take 8 mm for 1 year just to make it up to the fans. In addition (assuming Pettite stays home), Joba and Hughes will not pitch only 140 innings, more like 175 innnings each. That leaves only 120 – 150 innings to make up, which the combo of Aceves and Kennedy can fill in nicely. The Yankees no longer are forced to rely on either one ubt use the as complimentary pitchers. Does anyone think that Sanchez is an upgrade over Hughes? I don’t and trading Nady does not help matters since he is the better of all the RFers. Damon gets injured, Matsui gets injured, and depth is what helped us win in 96 – 2000. Swisher may not like it but he is most valuable as a bench player for now. Damon and Matsui are gone next year, so the Yankees will need everyone.

  109. Mister Delaware December 30th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    “Trisha you are making some of the most idiotic statements I’ve ever seen on this board … and I’d take Andy over Lowe any day of the week.”

  110. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    Assuming the Yanks have budgeted for Andy or another similarly priced pitcher, and assuming Andy is willing to come down from $16MM, the Yanks would be foolish to let Andy go over a few million dollars unless they have Lowe or Sheets in their sights.

    I find it hard to believe the Yanks would give another large multi-year contract to a pitcher this off-season, so I don’t see Lowe or Sheets coming here.

    I don’t see why we as fans care about this back and forth between Andy and the Yanks. It’s just business.

    As a fan, I hope they do sign Andy, because I get a lot of pleasure seeing him take the mound. For me, Andy is more than just his stat line.

  111. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) December 30th, 2008 at 1:51 pm

    No offense but what Andy is doing right now is using and pimping the Yankees. This would be me I’d close the door on him and end the speculation. Yes he was a great postseason SP a good #2 SP in the AL, those yrs. are gone there is 10 million on the table don’t want it we’ll find someone who does.

  112. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    trisha – CC and AJ and Sheets – OH MY!
    December 30th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
    “I think they’re undervaluing and trying to get a hometown discount.”

    Doreen, I really don’t think that’s the case at all. The Yankees aren’t a team who seem reluctant to pay for talent. We might have to face that the Yankees feel that Andy Pettitte, at this point in time, is worth $10 mil and no more. By the way, I don’t see it as a huge insult to be offered $10 million dollars to play for a season when you are an injury-prone player (oh my back! oh my leg! oh my arm! back is stiff, sorry can’t pitch today!) and are 37 years old or whatever he is.

    ————————————————————

    Do you just prattle on or do you ever check the facts? Pettitte missed one start in 2008 and had one less than the team leader Mussina. He lead the Yanks by 4 in 2007. He led the Astros in starts and innings in 2006 (considerably more than Clemens and Oswalt). He pitched the last two months last year with a tired shoulder, and, yes, the team knew it and didn’t have a replacement, so Pettitte pitched anyway.

  113. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 1:54 pm

    You don’t pay a guy for what he has done in the past, you pay him based upon what you think he can do in the future.
    If the Yanks were rumored to be signing a 36 year old guy who went 14-14 with a 4.54 ERA and a lousy second half last year for 16 million, that was not named Andy Pettitte, fans would think Cash lost his mind. I love Andy and everything he has done for us and as a #5 he would be fine..for 10 (maybe 12) mil, but his performance last year is not worth 16 mil.
    And if we dont sign him, give Hughes a shot. With the 1-4 that we have, if he cant get a shot now, may as well not even have a minor league system. Hughes is still a kid, let him pitch without the pressure he had the last 2 season and see what he can do.

  114. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) December 30th, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    It’s the 30th of freaking December, again how much more time does he need ! He’s had that offer for awhile, sign somewhere if you don’t want to return Andy !

  115. Tarheelyank December 30th, 2008 at 1:57 pm

    “Trisha you are making some of the most idiotic statements I’ve ever seen on this board.”

    I agree.

  116. Chris V. December 30th, 2008 at 1:58 pm

    I disagree that he is pimping the yankees. If lowe can get a multi year deal then so could Andy if he really wanted to go to the highest bidder. What makes Lowe more attractive than petitte on the open market? The last two years lowe was in the al east he was worse than pettite’s last two years here. The Yankees are getting a steal if he signs for 10 million.

  117. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    Wave Your Hat:

    I agree it’s just business, that being the case..he should’ve manned up and said I’ll go were the money is, like Manny did…not I want to pitch in NY next year and act as if 10mil is an insult…HE USED HGH and was an embarressment to NY….10mil more than settles the difference..

  118. Drain003 December 30th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    Just give Andy $13 million.. meet in the middle.

    They want $16, we want $10.

  119. no.27 December 30th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Cashman ends up signing Sheets to a 1 year deal at the last minute like he did with Teixeira or trades Nady and Kennedy for someone like Washburn. Pettitte said early on that he only wants to pitch for the Yankees, so he’s not in a strong negotiating position. I read the Yankees took his offer off the table all together, but who knows what’s really going on with all the bs thats been flying around this offseason.

  120. G. Love December 30th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

    Personally, I really want Andy on the team next season. 3/5 of our rotation will be home grown players (to shut up the critics) and Andy is the veteran who knows NY and can be there for CC, AJ and the kids coming up to give some sort of guidance.

    He’s not as bad as Wakefield. He’s not just a arm we throw out there hoping for 5 innings.

    He’s a better pitcher than that and in the first half last year he was very good.

    My fear with Sheets is that either he’s injured or he can’t handle NY or the American league.

    With Andy our only fear is he’s beat up and declining.

    That said, he’s not worth 16 million. I thought 12 million would be more than fair but the Yankees have a right to toe the line.

    The key is though to find a pitcher, a PROVEN VETERAN pitcher who can come into this rotation and provide those innings.

    All of you clamoring for Hughes/Aceves/Kennedy learned NOTHING from last season.

    If you think going into next season with 2 rookies with innings limits again in the rotation is a great idea, you’re wrong.

    Hughes has EVERYTHING to prove and he has not earned a shot to be penciled into the rotation.

    Handing these kids anything is the worst thing Cashman ever did as a GM.

    Joba earned his spot with pitching winning positive innings.

    The rest of the minor league arms have earned nothing unless we’re still patting Hughes on the back for 3 innings in a playoff game 2 years ago.

    I expect the team to find a veteran starter and I hope it’s Andy. If it’s not Andy, Sheets would be okay with me, but I think as Pete pointed out it’s very important to have someone come in and throw 200 innings in that spot.

  121. Milan December 30th, 2008 at 2:01 pm

    We’re getting Bedard, guys

    http://ccsbronxtrail.blogspot.com/

  122. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 2:01 pm

    How is Hughes supposed to earn his shot if he doesnt get a chance?
    Sorry Im not ready to give up on a 22 year old KID that was rushed up out of necessity.

  123. BD December 30th, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    Andy’s the best choice for the NYY. He’s a very good bet for 200 innings of league-avg ERA, with significant upside (Bill James projects 3.90 ERA from him). Hopefully, he’ll come around.

    If Pettitte doesn’t sign, hopefully Cashman will acquire another starter and not rely on a 5th starter by committee.

  124. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

    This place is a riot! Where else can you see men cry when you don’t give kudos to their favorite players!

    WAH WAH WAH!!!!!

    Get over yourselves. You’re fans, not major league scouts. What a bunch of babies.

  125. Chris V. December 30th, 2008 at 2:04 pm

    I’m not ready to give up on him either. Let him spend the year in AAA and make spot starts for injured pitchers and times when Joba is skipped. He gets 160 or so innings and he builds confidence for a full time position in 2010. Why is that so bad?

  126. Chris V. December 30th, 2008 at 2:04 pm

    Good defense of your argument Trisha.

  127. Sevrx December 30th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    If we put Hughes in the rotation, it has to be with the idea to pitch as much as we need him to, just like Boston did with Lester.

    Can’t worry about his innings, within reason. He has to be in the 170-180 range considering we’ll probably only get 130-140 from Joba.

  128. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    “He pitched the last two months last year with a tired shoulder, *and, yes, the team knew it* and didn’t have a replacement, so Pettitte pitched anyway.”

    Yeah, because the Yankees are a team who don’t care whether or not they make the playoffs. Right.

  129. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

    I don’t buy the Bedard story, were is it??

  130. Jose R December 30th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

    Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees):

    It’s not like New Year’s day is opening day (although I wish it was I’m tired of football), there is still plenty of time to fill that spot in the rotation. If Andy is that guy so be it, if not oh well. it’s time that the Yanks start from the bottom up. In agreeing with Yankeegirl49, start Hughes. The organization said he would be the ace of the future, aces have to start somewhere, might as well be at the back end of a great rotation.

  131. Anthony December 30th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

    Why does Andy have to accept the $10M offer? I don’t see why everyone thinks that he is a bad guy for trying to get a little more. If we’re paying AJ 16.5M and Randy Johnson is getting 8M from the Giants, is Andy, a pretty darn good big game pitcher that gives you a lot of innings with a good number of gems over the course of the season, who has no fear of taking the ball in any game, not worth about 12 or 13M? This isn’t just about past performance. What Andy can give you is way more than what Garland can give you. Garland is guaranteed average, Pettitte always gives you a shot at a great game.

  132. Anthony December 30th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    trisha – CC and AJ and Sheets – OH MY!
    December 30th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
    “He pitched the last two months last year with a tired shoulder, and, yes, the team knew it and didn’t have a replacement, so Pettitte pitched anyway.”

    Yeah, because the Yankees are a team who don’t care whether or not they make the playoffs. Right.
    —————————————————-

    What the devil is your point here? Pettitte was tabbed to continue pitching through it because the Yankees were trying to get to the playoffs. My god you are moronic to the extreme.

  133. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    Bill James??? Please, he also predicts Hughes to have a 3.5. Bill James predictions ans Sabermetrics are good in theory, they dont always translate onto the field, as we all have seen.

    What is the significant upside? He is 36 and finished the season with a “tired arm” (unless you believe its something more serious). Im not trying to discredit Andy, but guys this is NOT the Andy of 1998.

    Did anyone actually watch him the second half??? I was at all his home starts and it really got tiresome watching him give up lead after lead in some of those games.

  134. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

    “Good defense of your argument Trisha.”

    Let’s put it this way. The posters on this forum who also believe Andy isn’t worth $16 mil and think that $10 mil is more than fair understand my “argument”. I’m not here to try to convince anyone of anything. I’m doing what everyone else here is doing – stating my opinion. Only I don’t flip out and cry when someone doesn’t agree with my opinion.

  135. Jeremy December 30th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

    Milan,

    You wrote we’re getting Bedard and then linked to some blog referencing a rumor.

    The rumor doesn’t even make sense. Seattle traded top talent for Bedard and needs to get some value out of him. The Mariners will never trade Bedard for one year of Matsui as a DH. Nor will the Yankees give up Matsui for a player who can’t even pitch until a few months into the season.

  136. Jose R December 30th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    Where is that story coming from. It says that Wang is left-handed? I thought he injured his foot not changed his pitching arm? Or is he the original Pat Venditte and he was fooling us all?

  137. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) December 30th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    “I don’t buy the Bedard story, were is it??”

    Probably forcing SF’s hand

  138. 86w183 December 30th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

    Milan — nice link.. someone tell the doofus Wang is RH not LH. Then someone can tell that doofus that Bedard is injured and no one wants him right now.

    I agree Pettite is the right choice, but it is time to do something or get off the pot. There are options if he says no, but you need time to investigate them. If they use Nady for a pitcher they’ll need to add Wigginton or Baldelli to replace the balance/flexibility.

  139. Mister Delaware December 30th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

    “What Andy can give you is way more than what Garland can give you. Garland is guaranteed average, Pettitte always gives you a shot at a great game.”

    Agreed. I’d rather Andy but, if not him, I like Garland as a backup plan better than some of the injury flyers other people are discussing. Usually not but in this case, where there’s 3 solid-to-high upside candidates for the 5th starter slot, guaranteed league average innings to let the kids come along has a lot of value. Not on a long term deal, just as a one year stopping point.

  140. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

    Chris..

    Its not bad, and like I said I have no issue with bringing Andy back and having Hughes in AAA. What I said is that if we did not sign Andy to give Hughes the shot. If we sign Garland or Sheets it would most likely be for more than one year, leaving no spot for Hughes in 10 either.
    I dont see Hughes being the ace we all thought he would be, but I do see him being a good ML pitcher and I’d like to see that happen with the Yanks.

  141. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    “Pettitte was tabbed to continue pitching through it because the Yankees were trying to get to the playoffs. My god you are moronic to the extreme.”

    Gee, one poster says he pitched because they had nobody else. You are saying it’s because they wanted to get to the playoffs despite knowing he had a tired shoulder (which of course makes no sense.)

  142. Mark Alan December 30th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

    Andy declined in 2008? Well, yeah. However, Mike Mussina declined in 2008 (152 IP to 197.3 in ’07), and he returned to throw 200 and a third last year. Andy was down to 204 IP from 215.3 in ’07, but he was still over 200 innings. If he’s healthy, he’s over 200 IP.

    If they need innings, Andy Petite will give them plenty of quality innings. No, it’s not 2003, but Andy is still one of the top pitchers in the game. (Okay, I’m using the term broadly, but I stand by it.)

    Hal, Brian, draw the line somewhere it does not hurt your team.

  143. Tseng December 30th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

    Milan,

    I’m having a hard time believing in a blog that thinks that Wang is a left hander.

    Trisha,

    I don’t know you. You don’t know me. But, from what I’ve read of what you post here, you’re no better than any other person here. Get off your high horse.

  144. Tarheelyank December 30th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    “Let’s put it this way. The posters on this forum who also believe Andy isn’t worth $16 mil and think that $10 mil is more than fair understand my “argument”. ”

    I dont beleive Andy is worth 16 mil.

    You are delusional if you think youre posts are”arguments”.

  145. G. Love December 30th, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    Why don’t we see if Phil Hughes can pitch a full season healthy in AAA before anointing him anything for this team.

    He’s not a bum. He’s not garbage. We’re not giving up on him.

    BUT HE IS NOT READY TO PITCH IN A MAJOR LEAGUE ROTATION.

    If you didn’t realize that last year, I don’t know what to say to you.

    And if you’re all jazzed up about his Arizona Fall League numbers, then you really need to check yourself into the “Ruben Rivera Overhyping Prospect Wing” of Columbia Presbyterian.

  146. Mister Delaware December 30th, 2008 at 2:15 pm

    “No, it’s not 2003, but Andy is still one of the top pitchers in the game. (Okay, I’m using the term broadly, but I stand by it.)”

    Hit luck and all that, Pettitte was still 63rd of 82 in ERA. That’s … not good.

  147. john December 30th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

    I think Bedard is arbitration eligible. He made $7 mill in 2008. The Yankees would need to eat a good chunk of Matsui’s $13 mill money. Plus it’s in the Mariners best interest to hold onto him and deal him later in the year when teams are desperate for a pitcher for the playoff run and he proves himself to be healthy. Bedard is a bit of a malcontent, but is great when he is pitching well. The issue really becomes the Yankees could use a healthy innings pitcher and a veteran to anchor a staff with Joba and Burnett being concerns with innings and innings that will be limited anyway even if Hughes and Kennedy were pitching well.

  148. Mister Delaware December 30th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

    “BUT HE IS NOT READY TO PITCH IN A MAJOR LEAGUE ROTATION.

    If you didn’t realize that last year, I don’t know what to say to you.”

    He pitched 1 month last year and had a stress fracture in his ribs. Maybe he’s not ready, maybe he is, but its not a given either way.

  149. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

    I don’t know maybe we are reading this wrong, maybe when Cashman flew to Houston..him and Andy have an agreement, to lets see how the market shakes out…or whatever…

  150. RhapsodyInBlue December 30th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

    “Does anyone actually see Joba being held at 140 IP?”

    This question was answered by Pete in his last video-chat.

    He more or less said Joba would be pitching in the 140-160 inning range.

    When there is was a day off, the Yankees would use that extra day to skip Joba’s turn in the rotation. And his final point was that Joba would leave a lot of games when the Yankees are ahead at the 5th inning.

    Will be interesting to see who comes out of camp as the long relief people to make the bridge to the 8th. Coke, Aceves, Giese?

  151. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

    “I don’t know you. You don’t know me. But, from what I’ve read of what you post here, you’re no better than any other person here. Get off your high horse.”

    WHAT HIGH HORSE? Because I don’t want Pettitte back? Because I don’t think he’s worth $16 million? Because I don’t feel the need to capitulate to some people here who act as if their sayso is the BOMB and get personally critical when you disagree with it?

    I’m no better than anybody here my friend, but I am also no worse. And I don’t act like a spoiled two-year old and call other posters names when they voice an opinion different from mine. Maybe you should get on them instead of me.

  152. Brian NYY December 30th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

    Everyone keeps pointing out what Andy did for us BEFORE he went to Houston. As YankeeGirl49 pointed out:

    “If the Yanks were rumored to be signing a 36 year old guy who went 14-14 with a 4.54 ERA and a lousy second half last year for 16 million, that was not named Andy Pettitte, fans would think Cash lost his mind. ”

    We all love Andy and he should be happy to accept $10 mm as a 37 yr old pitcher with those statistics.

    Hughes is 22 yrs old and since when does any pitcher have to prove their way into a role, when he’s that young. Pettite went right into the rotation when he came up (based on scouting), and so does every pitcher. The Yankees have studs in their minors and Hughes is the best of them. Joba has blossomed because he had the skills to perform in the bullpen (100 mph fastabll and the nastiest slider in baseball). Joba and Hughes can piggy back the 3 ahead of them and have the chance to outpitch all the 4-5 pitchers in the league. Give them a chance, they have the talent.

  153. no.27 December 30th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    Every paper in NY had a story about Pettitte having a sore shoulder and I think it’s pretty clear he would have taken a few starts to rest it if Wang or Joba hadn’t gotten hurt. He pitched because they thought he would give them the best chance to win. Having Pavano, Ponson, or Rasner as your #2 starter makes it tough to sell the idea that you’re still trying to make the playoffs.

  154. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    Ok let’s play nice and change the subject…

    IMO we still need Manny…:)

  155. Patrick December 30th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

    Why do any of you put any weight into random blog posts about Bedard? I could register a blog in 5 minutes and put a post up that I am hearing rumors that the Yankees are going to trade Kei Igawa for Albert Pujols.

  156. Mister Delaware December 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

    OMFG! I JUST READ WE’RE GETTING ALBERT PUJOLS!!!

  157. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

    “You are delusional if you think youre posts are arguments”.”

    Which is why I put the word argument in quotes. I was using somebody else’s words, not my own. Sorry you didn’t catch that. And I was stating an opinion, not trying to present an “argument”. But thanks for the mature way you have approached this.

  158. jay destro December 30th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    stop talking about erik bedard, the dude’s shoulder is held together with tape and glue

  159. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    Patrick…where do I sign up for that one? LOL

    Tim..this topic is my first time posting here, you really do NOT want to get me started on Manny!!

  160. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

    “If the Yanks were rumored to be signing a 36 year old guy who went 14-14 with a 4.54 ERA and a lousy second half last year for 16 million, that was not named Andy Pettitte, fans would think Cash lost his mind. ”

    Thank you. Now duck quickly since that won’t be a popular opinion with some of the posters here, despite the factual nature of what you have presented.

  161. Chris V. December 30th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    I don’t think those of us who want Andy Petitte back want him back for 16 million. However, acting like 10 million is a “gift” to andy and that he owes the Yankees is upsurd. 12-13 million is reasonable and that is what it seems those of us who want Andy back are saying. He’s worth that much.

  162. CanIGetAMooseCall December 30th, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    Number 5 starters don’t make $10 million per year. If that’s all Andy needs to be, he should accept a lot less money.

  163. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    Yankeegirl49:

    Just joking trying to lighten everyone up…but I know they won’t go get him..however, I would, I guess that’s why I’m not a GM…:)

  164. Miggs December 30th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

    Those clamoring for an increase of the offer to Pettitte are living in a fantasy world.

    Besides the elite FA class, everyone is taking a major pay cut. Not minor. Major. And that isn’t taking into account his declining performance last year, as well as the fact that he was grossly overpaid to begin with.

    Just look at what’s going on. There are TONS of FA unsigned. Its virtually unprecedented going into the new year that all these players have no teams. Abreu will be lucky to get 8-10 million. Giambi will make less than 50% of what he made last year. Lowe can’t get a guaranteed 4th year. Everyone is hurting.

    I understand the Yankees just signed 3 guys to huge contracts. I’m well aware of that. Pettitte isn’t close to that level.

    I laugh at those saying he’s a “true Yankee” and a “warrior”. Give me a break. I like Andy as much as the next guy. But this is an economy where thousands of people get laid off on a daily basis, oil has declined to levels I never thought I’d see again, housing prices are shrinking at an alarming rate, and people are seeing their retirement accounts cut in half.

    Example: I sold my house in California last spring for 720K. Its worth around 550K now. I’m happy I sold it when I did, but at the same time I feel for the buyer.

    What I’m saying is people are hurting big time. Everyone is affected on some level, even the mighty NYY.

    Pettitte just got offered 10 million after an awful 2nd half of 2007. He’s 37 years old. Take the offer or go play somewhere else.

  165. O'Neill Fan December 30th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

    Jon Garland and Ben Sheets are excellent ideas, I can’t see why the Yanks wouldn’t take a look at Sheets at 2 years 24-26 million. Garland would command even less and doesn’t have the injury history that Sheets has.

  166. 86w183 December 30th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    I am amused by the frequent use of the word “worth” regarding salaries. A player is “worth” what someone is willing to pay him in a free market. No more and no less. I think $ 10 Million is fair and reasonable for Pettite, but he thinks he’s “worth” more. We’ll find out if he’s right, but there has to be a deadline for how long the offer sits out there. Of course, there might be a deadline and we just don’t know about it.

    Just because Highes and Kennedy weren’t ready in 2008 doesn’t necessarily mean they aren’t ready now. That’s a silly point to try to make.

  167. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    I gotta give it to you Trish. You are a fighter. I agree that Pettitte isnt worth 16 and 10 should do it. I dont think he is that injury prone though. You are getting people posting here that never have thrashing you and you keep responding. Im not sure if this is worse than the Wang isnt an ace arguement of last year. Just let it go. No one will change your mind on this matter or vice versa.

    I wonder if we can get Kevin Brown for cheap?

  168. Milan December 30th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

    My source at CC’s Bronx Trail was

    http://www.bleedingblueandteal.....ing-trade/

    which just confirmed that it is a fake rumor

  169. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    I’m not sure there needs to be a solid “deadline”. More of something like “hey Andy, the offer is out there, if you want the spot it’s yours, but we are going to look elsewhere in the meantime just in case, if we sign someone else the offer will be taken off the table”

    Then it’s in Andy’s hands…

  170. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    S.O.S.

    I hear what you are saying. But let me say at least this. I am not TRYING

  171. Mister Delaware December 30th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

    Who was your source on Wang?

  172. Milan December 30th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

    Just corrected myself with Wang. Apologies

  173. Chris V. December 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    I don’t think the Yankees want to sign someone for more than one year, which is why Petitte makes the most sense. Garland is not a bad alternative, probably gives u about what petitte gives u maybe a little less, but probably less expensive, except that he will be looking for a multi year deal. Pettite at his worst is league average and he’s a lefty, and he has tons of playoff experience. I’ll take the avg pitcher i know over the average pitcher I dont.

  174. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    “What I’m saying is people are hurting big time. Everyone is affected on some level, even the mighty NYY.”

    Miggs, I’m sorry, but after the money the Yankees just threw at CC, AJ and Tex, your argument doesn’t hold water. They can’t give guys 23, 18 and 22 mil a year and then say that they don’t have 12 for Andy. If they have 10, they have 12. It’s as simple as that.

  175. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

    Miggs,
    Good point. Just read somewhere that the 2009 housing markets that are going to get hit the worse. 6 of the top 10 are in Cali. Unfortuneately im in the worse of it. Its a good thing you left when you did. L.A. Riv and S.D was on that list.

  176. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

    “I’ll take the avg pitcher i know over the average pitcher I don’t.”

    So would I. And if it takes another 2mil to make it happen, I’d do it. The Yankees apparently have other ideas.

  177. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

    continued

    I am not TRYING to change anyone’s mind! I am stating my opinion, the same way other people state their opinions! And he has had a chronic “stiff back” – or spasms – that have caused him to be scratched from time to time. That is a fact. I don’t think he’s a good bet with his problems and age.

    But I don’t begrudge others who think he is a good bet.

    And S.O.S., the mark of a fighter is someone who is not going to sit down for a “trashing”! People can totally disagree with what I am saying and do so respectfully, and I am happy to let it go at that. When you get the posters who have to do it and act like jerks when they do it, that’s a different story. That’s when I do respond.

    Otherwise I say live and let live. We’re all doing the same thing here – voicing our opinions.

  178. Rafael O. December 30th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    If the Yankees cannot trust Phil Hughes with the #5 slot in the rotation, then they need to take a closer look at themselves.

    If the #5 slot in the rotation is not a good spot for him, then they might as well have traded him for Santana last year. Or packaged him for a stud positional player.

    Don’t get me wrong, I love Phil’s potential. But Yankees need to realize that he is more than ready for the #5 spot. If they can’t realize that, then they should trade him. (PLease don’t Cash)

  179. Patrick December 30th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

    “My source at CC’s Bronx Trail was

    http://www.bleedingblueandteal.....ing-trade/

    which just confirmed that it is a fake rumor ”

    So your “source” on your blog was another blog? Yeah that makes it better!

  180. Miggs December 30th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

    SOS referencing the “Wang is not an ace” argument.

    That’s funny stuff.

    That was when I first clashed with Trisha. She argued about Wand being “inconsistent” and “not an ace”. I proceeded to trash her mercilessly.

    Trisha is a true Yankees fan and I was wrong to attack her like I did. We now get along fine.

    She won’t back down though. No matter what you say, she won’t back down.

  181. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

    But where was it said its takes another 2 mil to make it happen? I keep hearing Andy does not want to take a paycut at all..which makes it another 6. Heck, every single one of us knows that the Yanks have plenty. They can give him 50 if thats what they wanted to do. However, they put a value on him at 10 and it’s up to him whether or not to take it. He owes the Yanks NOTHING, and the Yanks owe him NOTHING. To us its a game, its personal and we all have our “binkys”..to Andy and the Yanks its business.
    If Andy wants to play for us for what the Yanks are offering just about every Yankee fan will welcome him back. If he decides to retire or thinks he can get more elsewhere, THIS Yankee fan will wish him well, thank him for what he has done and look to the future, whether that be Hughes or someone we sign.

  182. Miggs December 30th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

    Laura obviously you didn’t read my entire post, but that’s not surprising.

    Only the elite will get the money they are asking for. Pettitte is far from elite. CC, Burnett, and Tex were necessities AND Elite FAs IMO. Pettitte is a luxury they can do without.

  183. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

    Rafael..

    Well said!!!

  184. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

    Miggs -

    :)

  185. jennifer December 30th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

    Patrick- At least it wasn’t a friends, aunts, uncles brother cousins friend who told him. :P

  186. Miggs December 30th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    SOS from what I remember you’re pretty settled there and are in it for the long term. The housing meltdown out there doesn’t neccessarily affect you as long as you aren’t trying to sell now or anytime soon.

    It’ll come back. It always does. It may just take awhile.

  187. transtank December 30th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    “How the rotation performs pretty much determines the course of the season.”

    You know, there’s also that part about how the position players perform as well. That’s also pretty important.

  188. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

    “Only the elite will get the money they are asking for. Pettitte is far from elite. CC, Burnett, and Tex were necessities AND Elite FAs IMO. Pettitte is a luxury they can do without.”

    Laura, that’s why I said I didn’t think this was a money issue as much as it was making a determination that a particular player was worth only a certain amount at this point in his career. The Yankees are hardly a parsimonious team.

  189. Tarheelyank December 30th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    I’m curious-did anybody see P. Hughes pitch the International Championship Game in Durham?

    I was in the first row and he dominated. First time I saw him wear glasses. He had a really pissed off look on his face. 12k in 5 innings-even with the homeplate ump squeezing him. It was impressive.

    Igawa pitched the night before, it looked like I could hit him.

  190. LOU December 30th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    Awesome post Pete. I have been saying this word for word. When August rolls around, Joba has hit his innings peak, AJ is on the DL for the year, and who knows what else happens, we are going to be scrambling for innings/starters. I am not saying it has to be Petite, but he is definitely a great option.

    I think you are being very, very generous in giving Burnett 190 innings too. My guess is ~140 but we will see. Either way, Yanks need an innings eater very badly right now.

  191. Abe's Odd World December 30th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

    Can I post on my blog that the Yankees are getting Albert Pujols for Melky Cabrera and a bag of Doritos? Would that make it true?

  192. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 2:53 pm

    Sorry couldn’t resist: :)

    Sleigh bells ring, are you listening,
    In the lane, snow is glistening
    A beautiful sight,
    If we land Manny tonight.
    Walking in a Yankee wonderland.

    Gone away is the bluejay,
    Here to stay is a now is AJ,
    He sings a love song,
    As we go along,
    Walking in a Yankee wonderland.

    In the meadow we can build a snowman,
    And not pretend that it is CC

    He’ll say: Andy are you here yet?
    We’ll say: No man,
    But you can do the job
    When you’re in town.

    Later on, we’ll conspire,
    To steal Tex right at wire,
    To face unafraid,
    The plans that we’ve made,
    Walking in a Yankee wonderland.

    In the meadow we can build a snowman,
    And pretend that our pitching is not a circus clown,
    We’ll have lots of fun with mister snowman,
    Until the other kiddies knock him down.

    When it snows, ain’t it thrilling,
    Just to know you hate Schilling,
    We’ll frolic and play, blog blog away,
    Walking in a Yankee wonderland.

    Walking in a Yankee wonderland,
    Walking in a Yankee wonderland.

  193. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

    The Yankees aren’t going to put 2 pitchers in the rotation that will be limited to 140-150 innings, max…and then just trust their luck. They made that mistake in 2008.

    Next year, Hughes and Chamberlain will be in the rotation almost full time, with Kennedy/Aceves picking up the left over innings. Pettitte is always good for 190-220 innings (mostly quality innings). His numbers on 26 July were as good or better than Mussina’s. If NYY had had another pitcher in the minors that was available, he would have been DL’d for a couple of weeks. As it was, they had two pitchers that were no better than overaged minor leaguers pitching. So, who did NYY have to pitch….they already were on their 7-8 starters?

  194. Anthony December 30th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    trisha – CC and AJ and Sheets – OH MY!
    December 30th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
    “Pettitte was tabbed to continue pitching through it because the Yankees were trying to get to the playoffs. My god you are moronic to the extreme.”

    Gee, one poster says he pitched because they had nobody else. You are saying it’s because they wanted to get to the playoffs despite knowing he had a tired shoulder (which of course makes no sense.)

    ————————————————-

    Let me try to explain it in smaller words and break it down for you. They wanted to get to the playoffs and they had nobody else who could replace him and give us a better shot. In simple terms, Andy Pettitte with a tired shoulder was a better gamble than anybody else we had available at the time.

  195. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 2:55 pm

    Tim
    LMAO!! Now if you got rid of the Manny reference it would be perfect!!!

  196. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    “Let me try to explain it in smaller words and break it down for you.”

    Definitely a way to get someone to read what else you wrote!

    :D

  197. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    Correction: Next year, Hughes and Chamberlain ***by next year, I meant 2010….not, 2009***

  198. Peter Abraham December 30th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    Good job, Tim.

  199. OldYanksFan December 30th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    Joba pitched 100 innings in ’08. The Yankees will NOT take any chances by overusing him. Count on 130-150 IPS. Figure 24 starts in the #5 slot. His slot will be skipped 2-3 times, and AA/IPK/Phil/Coke will fill in 3-4 times.

  200. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

    Now we can discuss my next pet peeve…why the H*LL do we have to baby these guys???
    I cannot for the life of me remember any pitchers on any team being babied the way we are babying Joba and now Hughes..and I have been following baseball for 35+ years!!

    Give me the days of 4 man rotations, complete games and NO stupid 100 pitch counts anyday!!!!

  201. Tarheelyank December 30th, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    Very funny Tim. Now if I could only sing.

  202. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    Tim – great stuff, as usual!

    :)

  203. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:00 pm

    “Laura obviously you didn’t read my entire post, but that’s not surprising.”

    Just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I didn’t read your entire post. And your comment about it not being surprising is a head scratcher.

    “Pettitte is far from elite.”

    When did I say that Andy was elite? I’m not saying that. I’m saying that he’s worth more than 10mil (12mil tops). I know that MANY people on this blog disagree with me on this. That doesn’t mean that it’s not true.

    Part of your argument was that the Yankees were being hurt/affected by the economy just like everyone else. My point back to you is that they can’t claim poverty where Andy is concerned after backing up Brink’s trucks to CC, AJ and Tex’s houses.

  204. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    I would have to disagree Laura. CC, AJ and Teix are paid as elites because they ARE elites. Pettitte is right now a #5 starter and is being offered a salary right now that actually exceeds what 5 starters get. Even as a number 4, that offer is more than generous.

  205. Bronx Jeers December 30th, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    Thanks Tim,

    That was a good one.

    Me, I’m still waiting to get feedback on my PERFECTLY constructed sonnet about Melky back in mid-August.

  206. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    Thanks everyone, hey I just wanted to lighten it up a little..we are very lucky to be Yanks fans, and no matter your opinions on stuff here, you have to admit they have far exceeded most of our off-season moves…anything else is gravy…

  207. ellen December 30th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    Great job, Tim!

  208. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    sorry “expectations in” moves

  209. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    Currently at $16 mill a year, Pettitte would be making close to AJ money – which would be as a #2 maybe #3 starter. Given what he produced last year, the Yankees aren’t offering that position. He’s being offered a #4/5 starter position and being offered (IMO) a generous amount to be a 4/5 starter.

  210. Jiggy December 30th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

    Awesome post and comments!
    The yanks would be smart to get one more pitcher. Here are my choices in order:
    1. Andy for 12.5-13.5 mil, or 11 mil + incentives
    2. 1 year for injury risk (if they take it): Smoltz or Sheets. Then go with a 6 man rotation with 1 of Hughes/Kennedy/Aceves
    3. Trade Matsui for Sanchez. I like Sanchez a lot, and he has no contract issues. Could even be traded in the summer for someone pretty good.
    4. Trade Nady for Reds pitcher and get 2 years of Harang or (second choice) Arroyo
    5. 1 year for underperforming average innings-eater: Garland
    6. Don’t do anything and rotate best of Hughes/Kennedy/Aceves/Giese/Eric Milton
    7. Sign overperforming player for 2 years: Randy Wolf/Paul Byrd. Because they wont go for 1 year.
    999. Sign a ridiculous injury risks: Sign Prior or trade Matsui for Bedard

    Either way, I think it is necessary to get Hughes more ML innings. Aceves and Kennedy can be long relievers/spot starters to spell Joba, Hughes.

    A 6 man revolving rotation might also keep A.J. healthy all year. If this messes up the pitchers routine, then it is a bad idea, but I think Dave Eiland and Girardi can accommodate this. And its not like our number 6 pitcher will stink.

    What do you think of 6 man idea…

  211. S.A.-Brian "The Ninja" Cashman: Showing free agents lots of love December 30th, 2008 at 3:09 pm

    Great job Tim! LOL :D

  212. ellen December 30th, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    I have to imagine that Cashman has a valid Plan B, in case Pettitte does not sign. I can’t believe that he would go ahead with a 5th starter-by-committee after spending all that money on CC, AJ and Teix.

  213. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    Ellen – I certainly agree with that – though that probably makes it the kiss of death!

    :lol:

  214. Turn2 December 30th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    Laura- And how do you figure Pettitte is going to take 112-millinos…….Please tell me are the Yankees sure that if they make a 12 million offer, they won’t be inbarase by Pttittes’s rejection?

  215. Frank from Chatham December 30th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    It still amazes me how many of us state how much salary Andy Pettitte or any ballplayer should accept. As if we are the GM! I realize it would be fun to “play” GM for 5 minutes but in reality we have no idea what a team’s budget is.

    Do we really care what the Yankee budget is? I really think concentrating on salary & years is meaningless for the fan.

    The real question should be whether or not you want him on the team. Yes or no.

    Paying Andy 10MM or 12MM per year – like how do we know how much he should get.

  216. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    “Thanks everyone, hey I just wanted to lighten it up a little..we are very lucky to be Yanks fans, and no matter your opinions on stuff here, you have to admit they have far exceeded most of our off-season moves…anything else is gravy…”

    On that note..

    I would like to thank the good lord for making me a Yankee fan!!

  217. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

    “Pettitte is right now a #5 starter and is being offered a salary right now that actually exceeds what 5 starters get. Even as a number 4, that offer is more than generous.”

    Sunny, if it’s some bum off the streets, then I get the 10mil. I guess I put more stock in the fact that Andy has proven himself to this organization on more than one occasion. They know him, they know what he can do and what he brings to the table. IMO, they need to cut him more slack than this. Maybe this is the reverse of the hometown discount. Maybe I’m asking them to give him a hometown bonus. I don’t know. I just know that if I were making the call, I’d offer him 12mil. If he turns that down, then we move on. But to me, 10mil is too low. I know I’m practically alone on this, but this is how I feel.

  218. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

    “Thanks everyone, hey I just wanted to lighten it up a little..we are very lucky to be Yanks fans, and no matter your opinions on stuff here, you have to admit they have far exceeded most of our off-season moves…anything else is gravy…”

    Oh yeah! Heck, Cashman had me at “hello…”

    ;)

  219. AeroFANatic December 30th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

    What about an inexpensive flyer in someone like Jon Lieber? Him combined with Hughes certainly can get us those 200 innings?

  220. Bronx Jeers December 30th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

    “…anything else is gravy…”

    Pettitte ( or any viable MLB ready starter) is not gravy.

    They should be considered potatoes…or possibly broccoli (or like vegetable)

    We sort of need one to complete the meal. No point in putting together this incredible dinner if you’re going to leave out an important component. Yanks have a lot of not-so-ready for prime-time pitchers but they still need that one solid starter to insure they’re not relying on an unknown factor.

  221. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:15 pm

    “Laura- And how do you figure Pettitte is going to take 112-millinos…….Please tell me are the Yankees sure that if they make a 12 million offer, they won’t be inbarase by Pttittes’s rejection?”

    I don’t know for sure that Andy would take 12mil. I’m purely guessing here. I think he knows that 16mil is out of the question. It seemed to me that 12mil was a fair offer and less insulting than 10mil.

  222. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 3:16 pm

    Laura:

    I do believe that 10mil is fair, but I got a feeling Cash and him have something worked out..maybe I was reading into it to much, why would he fly to Houston?? during the meetings…I wouldn’t be upset if Andy came back even if it’s more, I just think 10mil is more than fair for him..

  223. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 3:17 pm

    I haven’t read any posts here that would be behind Pettitte getting the same $16 mil he got last season. It is clear that that would be folly. But I think $10 mil from the Yankees is a little light. (I say this fully aware that $10 million is A LOT OF MONEY and baseball salaries are crazy!)

    I think what’s going to happen is the Yankees are going to end up paying more for a guy they don’t know if Pettitte turns them down. I don’t think they’re going to go with Hughes/Aceves in that slot. So, if they’re prepared to pay a little extra for a guy who doesn’t have Andy Pettitte’s pedigree, why not give it to Andy?

    And Laura, you’re right – the Yankees can’t claim poverty after the money they’ve just spent. They can say they have a budget and they want to come in under last year’s number. They might even have an understanding with Pettitte that this process can take as long as it takes, and once they’ve signed all the various and sundry extras (bench players), Andy will get more than the $10 mil depending on what precisely is left within the budget. Who knows.

  224. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 3:18 pm

    Bronx Jeers:

    I doubt very much that Cash doesn’t know that…he will get another starter….

  225. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    “They might even have an understanding with Pettitte that this process can take as long as it takes, and once they’ve signed all the various and sundry extras (bench players), Andy will get more than the $10 mil depending on what precisely is left within the budget. Who knows.”

    That’s the rub. We’re all working ourselves up into a lather over this when for all we know, some deal has already been worked out and we just don’t know about it.

    It would be nice if they would make an announcement though. I’m ready to move on to other debates. :P

  226. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    Frank

    We don’t know, but I’d like to think Cashman and the Yankee front office know. I want him on the team if he is willing to accept what the Yanks offer him.

    Your question is not as cut and dry as you make it though. As a fan, I dont usually concern myself with $$ amounts. If the Yanks make an offer I have no choice but to assume they know what they are doing (tho sometimes I wonder..LOL). I do concern myself with years because I dont want to see a roster spot taken up by a has been when it could be given to a productive player. With that said…there are a whole bunch of pitchers I wouldnt want the Yanks to give millions to, but if they offered to pitch for league minimum I’d be more than happy to see them take a shot.

  227. David December 30th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

    Spot on Pete. Pettite makes sense for the fifth slot in the rotation. He is still an innings eater, knows the AL East, and is a great clubhouse guy. Andy brings the experience and leadership that should never be undervalued. In addition, with the Yankees planning on bringing CC and AJ along slowly (see http://www.dailycamera.com/new.....ith-cc-aj/) they will need a dependable arm in the rotation early in the season. Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Alfredo Aceves will get some starts due to inevitable injury and schedule issues. As far as other free agents, people need to let go of the idea of the Yankees signing Lowe, Sheets, Garland or others like them. And wow, one story about the Red Sox’ exploring reacquiring Hanley Ramirez and he is in pinstripes and a new position all with giving up the best young arm the team has. Come on, slow down, and be real.

  228. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    Remember a statement Cash made, one about getting a real 1st baseman, and it was a mistake to give 2 rotation slots to young guys…something to that effect…this is not a quote..but he mentioned something about this stuff…

  229. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    I understand what you’re talking about Laura, but I think you’re bringing sentimentality in a place where it’s never used. This is the same team that cut Bernie Williams loose, battled their Ace-at-the-time Wang over $600g and won, battled Jeter in arbitration (and lost), refused to negotiate with either Rivera or Posada until their contracts were up and ended up overpaying for both, and the list goes on… This team is not going to overpay Pettitte because he was there for them in the past… they’re going to pay players to be there for them now and in the future. And to the Yanks, Pettitte’s services are worth $10 mil. I’m sure if it were anyone else, it’d probably be $6 to 8 mil.

  230. Darrell Riffraff December 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    Thank you, Pete.

    As much as I love Phil Hughes and would love to see him in the rotation again this year, how we fill the innings and avoid the, as you say, riffraff is more important. He’s still a VERY young man and we will see him plenty later.

    They’re taking too hard a line with Andy. One more year, give him what he wants, and we have a more solid rotation innings-wise last year.

    It’s not that we don’t trust Phil Hughes. It’s that we don’t trust Sidney Ponson and, boy, is that guy the dictionary definition of “riffraff.”

  231. Bronx Jeers December 30th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    Here’s a few more whacked out (but cheap) possibilities for 5th starter.

    1. Carl (Say It Isn’t So) Pavano
    2. Sid (3rd Time’s The Charm!) Ponson
    3. Pedro (Come Home To Daddy!) Martinez

  232. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    If the Yanks based everything they did on what players have done for us in the past, Luis Sojo would still be our backup infielder.

  233. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    “I wouldn’t be upset if Andy came back even if it’s more, I just think 10mil is more than fair for him..”

    Tim, I try not to get caught up in the figures, but look at it in terms of percentages. The Yankees are essentially asking Andy to take roughly a 40% pay cut. That’s pretty steep. Now ask yourself, is Andy 40% less of a pitcher than he was last year? I don’t think so, but there in lies the debate.

  234. Sabino December 30th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

    Hi All,

    This is probably not the correct forum for this question but I’ll ask anyway.

    I am a very satisfied yankee fan (after the FA signings) living in Coral Gables, Florida. I am trying to decide whether to get the MLB Extra Innings package or just get the YES network on one of the other sports packages. I would prefer the YES network but I’ve been hearing horror stories that subscribers outside of the New York viewing area have all of the yankee games on YES blacked out.

    Can anyone who currently has the YES network and lives outside of the NY viewing area confirm or deny that the Yankee games on YES are indeed blacked out outside of the TRI State area….
    Any other info will also be appreciated…
    #27 here we come…..

  235. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    Laura:

    Well it’s not really a pay cut that contract is over. He needs to re-negotiate, so there in comes the market..

  236. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    Bronx…

    I actually thought about Pedro. From what I understand he is willing to take a one year incentive based contract. The problem there is we would still have the issue with innings. The last time he threw 200 was 05, and hasnt come close since.
    May as well go with one of the kids in that case.

  237. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    “We don’t know, but I’d like to think Cashman and the Yankee front office know. I want him on the team if he is willing to accept what the Yanks offer him.”

    Yankeegirl49, an extremely sage position from my perspective. I may have an opinion but I will always defer to the knowledge coming from the Yankee organization when all is said and done. I will always say that I am at least bright enough to recognize that they know more about picking players and making a team than I do, and more about it than any baseball writer and forum could hope to know – despite what some posters and writers might say otherwise.

  238. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    “I understand what you’re talking about Laura, but I think you’re bringing sentimentality in a place where it’s never used.”

    Oh, I’m sure I’m doing that. There’s no doubt in my mind that I am. That being said, I think that the Yankees could use a little of that. The way they are nickle and dimeing Wang is almost embarrassing. But to them, it’s a business and in business, there’s no room for loyalty, sentimentality or forgiveness. Jeter will find this out when his contract is up.

  239. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    Here’s the thing with the argument that the Yanks can’t claim poverty after spending like they have… given what they got in return – a bonafide ace and innings eater, and a pitcher who could be the ace of another staff, and the best hitter/first baseman in a long time outside of Pujols… do you think the Yanks paid for what they got in return? Overpaid slighty maybe, but not ridiculously so over market price. If this were another 36 year old pitcher who just pitched through shoulder problems, and went 14-14 with an almost 5 era, would you pay him $10 mil? $12 mil?

    They’re also not going to pay more for another pitcher to fill that slot. And any other pitcher would want a multi year deal, which does not fit into the Yankees plans in bringing up Hughes and maybe IPK next year. Given Pettitte’s production last year and the current state of the roster, $10 mil is a good deal. But I’d do $10 plus incentives if that’s what it takes.

  240. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    Sabino..
    My daughter goes to the U of Miami and lives in CG, she gets the MLB package because of the reason you mentioned. YES gets blacked out because it’s Marlins territory.

  241. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    You see, if we are to believe the numbers that were out there that the Yankees were willing to pay Derek Lowe, then the salary offered to Andy Pettitte makes no real sense. Derek Lowe is not a better pitcher than Andy Pettitte, but reportedly he was going to be offered a multi-year (3,4?) contract at something like $12 mil per year? (Or I’m totally mistaken and my memory has been obliterated by holiday carbs!) I don’t think it’s sentimentality. Andy still has a lot to offer. He’s not on his last legs (at least in my opinion).

  242. randy l December 30th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    sabathia and burnett both had very high innings for 2008. the smart thing would be to protect the investment in them and give them a year that they don’t go over 200 innings.

    cashman really needs to add another pitcher who can throw a lot of innings. if he doesn’t do this, he’ll be playing his familiar tune of praying that everything will work out. the problem is that it never does. why invest all that money and then jeopardize the health of sabathia and burnett by asking too much of them?

  243. Tom Gaffney December 30th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

    Phil can go approx. 175, leaving only 25 for Kennedy, Aceves and Giese. Maybe even McCallister will be ready by mid-season. I don’t think you have to load up every spot with a proven vet. Much as I’d love to see Andy back in pinstripes for one more year, I also want to see if Hughes is ready. That’s what the 5th starter is for – to give a shot to an unproven young stud. I can understand the anxiety about what to do if one of the top 3 goes down, but a mid-season deal or pickup is a possibility if that occurs. I say roll the dice with the kid. Give Hughes a shot

  244. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    Sabino, I have the YES network and DirectTv and it is only because I have ExtraInnings that I get to watch YES broadcasts (the majority of the games are YES broadcasts.) I think without ExtraInnings you would be blacked out of most of the games. (I am in RI). I have YES mainly for the pre and postgames.

  245. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    a 40% paycut if all things were equal. But they’re not. You’re talking about a market where players are literally happy to get half what they would’ve gotten a year ago. Abreu made $16 mil last year… this year – he’ll be lucky to make $8. I say this acknowledging what I wrote above regarding the signings of CC, AJ and Teix – that they are the exceptions to the rule.

  246. Tom Gaffney December 30th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    Doreen,

    Derek Lowe IS a better pitcher than Andy Pettitte right now. Much better.

  247. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    “Well it’s not really a pay cut that contract is over. He needs to re-negotiate, so there in comes the market..”

    True, but they are still asking him to make way less money than he did last year. For us, since these are such large sums of money, I don’t think we get the difference. As a test, take your current salary and slash it by 40%.

    Yeah, that sucks huh. It may be millions for Andy, but it’s the same thing.

  248. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    Doreen

    Lowe is a DIFFERENT pitcher than Andy and has NEVER been on the DL. There is the difference. He also had an era of 3.24, a full run lower than his leagues average, while Andy’s was higher. His WHIP was also much lower. Im not saying I’d rather have Lowe than Pettitte, just rationalizing why Lowe is going to get a multi year deal for more $$ than Andy.

  249. myrtlebeachfan December 30th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

    I am of the opinion that there is not much more that Phil Hughes can do in the minor leagues. It’s time to slot him in and see what we can get. We have many serviceable #5s in the minor league system and spot-starters that can take some of the load off of Joba.

    Phil can do it. It’s time we let him show that.

  250. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    “a 40% paycut if all things were equal. But they’re not. You’re talking about a market where players are literally happy to get half what they would’ve gotten a year ago.”

    Well, the economy has certain thrown a wrench into a lot of players plans. But I’m not sure the Yankees would be treating Andy any different if we weren’t currently in a recession.

    What do you think, Sunny?

  251. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

    Andy Pettitte: 14-14, 4.54 ERA, 158 SO, 1.41 WHIP
    Derek Lowe: 14-11, 3.24 ERA, 147 SO, 1.13 WHIP

    Lowe is also a year younger.

  252. Sabino December 30th, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    Thanks Yankeegirl49 – i actually work at the U…. so i guess its the MLB Extra Innings package and being forced to watch the games with the opposing teams announcers – oh well its better than nothing..it’ll be great watching NESN when the yankees play the redsox and hearing the sox announcers cry in their chowder when the score is 12 – 1 in favor of the yankees…

    Happy New Year!!!

  253. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:36 pm

    I’m sorry, but this comparing Andy to Lowe is laughable. Lowe has been pitching in the NL, where he’s facing the pitcher at least 3 times a game and a host of lesser hitting position players. Andy has been pitching in the AL, facing his AL East rivals God knows how many times. You cannot compare their records.

  254. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

    Yankeegirl49/sunny615 -

    Fair point. But Derek Lowe did have his troubles in the AL East.

  255. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

    If there was not economic crisis, and all things being equal, I would still think the Yanks bring Pettitte back at a reduced rate given the acquisitions of CC and AJ. Those two essentially knocked Pettitte down the rotation order a good 2 spots. And given the Yankees’ history of paying market value for a player, they would’ve offered Pettitte such a salary. Probably not the $10 mil being offered now, but definitely not $16. Also, if there were no recession, who knows how much Teix, AJ and CC would’ve gotten – probably millions more – so that might have prohibited the Yankees again from offering Pettitte $16 again. Too many variables in that question to entertain properly. But my guess would be that even if all things were equal to 08, Pettitte would not have been offered $16 mil. Probably $12.

  256. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    *I’m sorry, but this comparing Andy to Lowe is laughable. Lowe has been pitching in the NL, where he’s facing the pitcher at least 3 times a game and a host of lesser hitting position players. Andy has been pitching in the AL, facing his AL East rivals God knows how many times. You cannot compare their records.*

    True, but Lowe has also pitched in the AL East for Boston. He was successful during his tenure culminating in winning a world series.

  257. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:40 pm

    Laura..

    Yes, you can. Lowe’s ERA was a run less than HIS LEAGUES average. Andy’s was higher than HIS LEAGUES. Even if you add the one run differential for switching leagues (which is what the so called experts say to add) Lowe’s is still less than Andy’s.
    Lowe has never had arm trouble..NEVER. Andy has a history of it.
    If you give most GMs a choice of the 2, Lowe will sign sooner, for more money and for a longer term.

  258. Sabino December 30th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

    Thanks Trisha – Happy New Year to you and stay warm!!!

  259. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:42 pm

    Derek Lowes troubles in the AL East were a result of personal issues with Lowe. Issues to whcih he fully admitted to and addressed. Thats why Boston let him go in the first place.

  260. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 3:42 pm

    Plus we need the 6mil from Andy’s contract for Manny..:)

  261. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:42 pm

    “But my guess would be that even if all things were equal to 08, Pettitte would not have been offered $16 mil. Probably $12.”

    Oh, I agree. I don’t think they were offering him $16mil whether the recession hit or not. I guess I don’t see how offering another 2mil to Andy (whether it be straight salary or incentives) even makes a dent into the Yankees pocket. That’s almost like pocket change to them, recession or not.

  262. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 3:42 pm

    “so i guess its the MLB Extra Innings package and being forced to watch the games with the opposing teams announcers – oh well its better than nothing..”

    I don’t know if it’s because I had DirecTv but I got to watch the YES broadcast for just about all of the games. And I am in another team’s market.

  263. Chris V. December 30th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    The funny thing is those arguing against Andy are saying that we cant dwell in the past, however you are basing your sole judgement on less than half a year, where he was probably pitching hurt. He was a very good pitcher until late July or so. Dothose of you who don’t want him think hes just completely lost it, or do you think he will revert back to his form from the first half of the year or so?

  264. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    Sabino..

    My daughter says the only thing worse than listening to the NESN guys is listening to Joe Morgan!
    Good luck..and Happy New Year to you too!

  265. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    And the same to you Sabino, though I don’t think I have to tell you to stay warm!

    :D

  266. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    “Plus we need the 6mil from Andy’s contract for Manny..:)”

    Tim, you are lucky you aren’t sitting next to me because I would most certainly hit you over the head with a rolled up newspaper. :)

  267. Tim Clougher December 30th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    Laura:

    Ouch!! :)

  268. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    “True, but Lowe has also pitched in the AL East for Boston. He was successful during his tenure culminating in winning a world series.”

    I may be getting forgetful in my advanced age, but I don’t remember Lowe being all that great when he was in BOS. Perhaps one of the people here who are so good at getting the stats can find how he did during his BOS tenure.

  269. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

    *I guess I don’t see how offering another 2mil to Andy (whether it be straight salary or incentives) even makes a dent into the Yankees pocket. That’s almost like pocket change to them, recession or not.*

    I understand your point Laura, and I’m not disagreeing, but I am saying that the Yankees (quite oddly) have been known to penny pinch when needed (see Wang, Chien-Min). Why? I couldn’t tell you, but when they decide a player is worth a certain amount, they don’t exceed it. Even with Teix, it was noted by several papers that the Yanks would not go over $180 and they didn’t. They paid what they thought he was worth. I’m also allowing for the fact that they probably give more leeway when the player is in the “elite” status as CC and Teix were.

  270. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    Chris..

    Its not just the half a year for me. Its a combination of his poor 2nd half (which I saw in person…it was painful to watch at times), the fact that he is getting up there in age, and his history of elbow trouble.
    Moose had the stuff to change the way he pitched, he became more of a finesse pitcher and completely changed how he went about getting guys out. Im not sure Andy has the arsenal or the mindset to do that.

  271. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    “Laura:

    Ouch!! :)

    Okay, I would lightly tap you over the head with the newspaper.

    :P

  272. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    “Even with Tex, it was noted by several papers that the Yanks would not go over $180 and they didn’t.”

    Funny, as much as I wanted Tex, I think we overpaid for him.

  273. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

    well, here are some excerpts from Lowes career:
    2002 21-8, 2.58 ERA (first full season)
    2003 17-7, 4.47 ERA
    2004 14-12, 5.42 ERA

    Like Yankeegirl said, 03 and 04 is where he started to disgress in personality – but if he’s anything like is 02 season, he could be useful.

    incidentally:
    2005-08 in LA
    54-48, 3.54 ERA

  274. DT December 30th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

    No one wants to take a 40% cut in pay – but it’s happening all over baseball.

    What’s the diff between Abreu and Andy?
    They are both free agents. They both aren’t going to get the salaries they had last year. The market has changed.

    Abreu will be lucky if he doesn’t take a 50% pay cut. Why is no one crying for him? (because he doesn’t have Yankee roots?)

    Hypothetically – If we had a need for Bobby A. should we offer him 13-14 mil because it would be too painful to ask him to take a 40 % cut to 10 million? Or should the market decide what he is worth?

  275. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    Laura..

    A newspaper? I was thinking more like a crowbar..LMAO!

    Lowes last 2 years in Boston were not very good, again, due to personal issues from what I understand. He claims to have addressed thos issues and his performance after he left proves it.
    Last 2 yrs in Boston
    2003 17-7 203 innings 4.47 era (still under league average)
    2004 14-12 182 innings 5.42 ERA

    If you want to go back further, he was VERY good.

  276. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    “Its not just the half a year for me. Its a combination of his poor 2nd half (which I saw in person…it was painful to watch at times), the fact that he is getting up there in age, and his history of elbow trouble.

    Moose had the stuff to change the way he pitched, he became more of a finesse pitcher and completely changed how he went about getting guys out. Im not sure Andy has the arsenal or the mindset to do that.”

    Yankeegirl49, I definitely agree with this thought process.

  277. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    “Moose had the stuff to change the way he pitched, he became more of a finesse pitcher and completely changed how he went about getting guys out. Im not sure Andy has the arsenal or the mindset to do that.”

    Do we know yet that Andy has to go that route? He clearly was hurt the second half, but if he recovers from whatever it was that ailed him, who is to say that he can’t get people out the way he always has?

  278. Sabino December 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    Yankeegirl49 – thats funny – yes i agree i would rather have 10 root canals than have to listen to joe morgan..
    i was very happy last year when some obscure radio station in Palm Beach (about 2 hours away by car)started broadcasting yankee games on the weekend – i felt like i was 10 again listening to yankee games on the radio….
    but i’m betting watching the games will be alot more satisfying this year….be well….

  279. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    Laura – I think we did as well, but the market dictates a players value. The team decides if they want to pay it and hoe much over it. The Yanks saw a $160-$170 market and overpaid by $10 mil – which breaks down to $1.25 mil per season. They were comfortable with that given his status and the Yankees’ need. (I guess Betemit and Giambi haunted Cashman too much).

  280. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    “Abreu will be lucky if he doesn’t take a 50% pay cut. Why is no one crying for him? (because he doesn’t have Yankee roots?)”

    Actually I have been crying for him. I started saying that I wanted him back well before the season ended and haven’t stopped feeling that way.

    Just for the record.

  281. Kevin December 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    I’m sorry but this is getting ridiculous. If Andy thinks he can get more years I guess that is why he hasn’t accepted yet. Absolutely no way can he get a higher annual salary than 10 million, though. I find that extremely hard to believe. By now I would be borderline insulted if I were the Yankees. They are looking dumb and Andy is looking even dumber. At this point the Yanks should call him up and say listen, take it or leave it buddy. Yes they would like to sign him and leave Hughes and Aceves as insurance, but the truth is they have other options and without him they’d still be fine. It’s ultimatum time.

  282. sunny615 December 30th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

    going home. See ya. Good conversation Laura.

  283. Chris V. December 30th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

    Last Year up until July 27th:

    Andy Petitte 12-7 3.76ERA 139inning 146 hits 33bb 1.29 WHIP
    Derek Lowe 8-8 3.74ERA 137 inning 130 hits 34bb 1.20 WHIP

  284. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

    “2005-08 in LA
    54-48, 3.54 ERA”

    This is what he’s done in the NL and people think that he’s going to come to the AL and do better? Thanks, but I choose to bet on Andy.

  285. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:53 pm

    Take care, Sunny!

  286. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    Pedro is inticing. I mean we could give him a 5 mil deal and make the money back by having a pay per view clubhouse brawl with the likes of

    Posada
    vs.
    Pedro

    With the old bald guy that Pedro slammed to the floor as the ref.
    Still say no thank you.

    Miggs,
    Unfortunately my business depends on the housing market. Hope it picks up soon.

  287. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    “Do we know yet that Andy has to go that route? He clearly was hurt the second half, but if he recovers from whatever it was that ailed him, who is to say that he can’t get people out the way he always has?”

    Laura, but with Andy a year older and certainly past his prime, do you take the chance that he may be able to get people out, and do you pay a premium to take that chance? I think the Yankees offered what they did because they didn’t have either the assurances or confidence that it was going to be a slam dunk. Don’t forget they’ve watched Andy pitch for a long time now, and they’ve watched the progression (whatever it is).

  288. 86w183 December 30th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    Slow down? Be real? This is a fan blog and we are not going to be shouldered with the burden of rational thought!

    Besides some of us were right about Teixiera while most of those “in the know” were dead wrong. Getting well ahead of the curve can be beneficial and even prescient.

    You can’t have a six-man equal rotation, but I suppose you could have three guys who share the # 4 and # 5 spots with the idea that each would make 20-25 starts. Could Hughes/Joba/Aceves do that? Hmmmmmmm

  289. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

    “Abreu will be lucky if he doesn’t take a 50% pay cut. Why is no one crying for him? (because he doesn’t have Yankee roots?)”

    For the record, both Trisha and I have been crying for Abreu for quite some time now. I do feel sorry for the predicament he finds himself in. I would have preferred we kept Bobby, but it was not meant to be.

  290. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 3:56 pm

    “I think the Yankees offered what they did because they didn’t have either the assurances or confidence that it was going to be a slam dunk.”

    It’s a gamble for sure. They are doing that a lot this year. A 5 yr deal for AJ Burnett? 7 for CC? Pure gambles. Let’s hope they work out.

  291. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

    Kevin – yep!

    And it’s a good thing your name isn’t Trisha because if it were, right now you’d have “Anthony” calling you all sorts of names. But “Anthony” has been on my case for a while, so I’m not surprised when I read depracating comments from him. “Anthony” wouldn’t give me credit if his life depended on it!

  292. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 3:59 pm

    For the record, I wanted to keep Abreu too. I hated watching him when balls were up against the wall, but LOVED watching him at the plate.

  293. tmcm650 December 30th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

    Great lead-in to spark a pretty enthusiastic string, Pete, but was your closing statement tongue in cheek or have you decided the time for patience is past? Wasn’t it you who just a few weeks ago mentioned how much time there was left for deals to be made? Aren’t there still 45 days or so until pitchers & catchers report? And yeah, I do understand that that last couple of weeks or so is probably too late for deals for a pitcher to be made, but that still leaves a good 3 weeks. But I think what you wrote back then is still valid now…take a breath and give the guys who are being paid to manage the team do their job, there’s still plenty of time.

  294. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 4:04 pm

    “I would have preferred we kept Bobby, but it was not meant to be.”

    :(

    Damn.

    Well Laura, as we well know it ain’t over til it’s over! I won’t be surprised if Pettitte comes back and Cashman has a deal worked out. A fan blog is nothing more than trying to read the tea leaves right? As 86w183 pointed out regarding Teixeira, there were posters who were dead wrong about the Yankees and Teixeira – I being one of them. My read was that they didn’t think he was worth the value. (Also I didn’t – and still don’t – think the Yankees needed him to win it all. But he sure won’t hurt!) Credit to Cashman, he wasn’t showing his hand, and the tea leaves really read the opposite. So it is very possible that something could happen with Andy.

    On the other hand, I’m afraid we’re reading the tea leaves accurately on Bobby. :( And here’s a guy who made a good case for coming back. Go figure.

  295. Al from BK December 30th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    I think we should trade Matsui and pick up Manny w/a 1 yr deal. I guarantee if the Dodgers go Adam Dunn Manny will have no choice but to take a 1 yr deal and hope for a big year in the Bronx.

  296. john December 30th, 2008 at 4:07 pm

    I doubt Cashman goes into the season not learning from last year. Why sign an injury prone guy when you just signed Burnett and Joba (limited innings and injury). Would anyone be surprised if one went down?? Then you bring in a Pedro who is done, finished, he can’t even pitch in the NL let alone a full season. So you have three guys who no one would be surprised if they missed starts. And the backup plan is kids with innings limits. Andy should just sign the deal, open the new stadium, he has proved to be durable even if not pitching well the last two years. He’s the veteran anchor. You get Andy and you have a lot of innings utilized. The deal on the table works to get Andy where he wants to be (minus some money) and works for the Yankees. This just needs to get done. Why give him more money and then incentive money when a guy like Penny signs for $5 with incentives? Yankees have options in the free agent market or a trade to land a 5th starter, please don’t go the route they went in last year. As Peter pointed out, you have done so much work to this point why risk it not solidifying the rotation?

  297. aardvark December 30th, 2008 at 4:09 pm

    brad penny was a steal

    come back player of the yr, all-star appearence

  298. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    I wanted to keep Bobby, too! :)

    I did see why they wouldn’t want him for 3 years, but I thought 1 with an option, or 2 with an option, or no options, just 1 or 2 years. Anyway, I think he’s going to be missed.

  299. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    Guys and girls..

    Thanks for the chat, Ill have to vist here more often. Its noce to find a place where people actually know what they are talking about!!!
    Have a very Happy New Year everyone! Then again, after this offseason, its cannot be anything but!!

  300. Scott (Joba RULES!) December 30th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

    If the goal for the remaining slot in the rotation is “get me 200 league average innings” there is no reason to sign Sheets. He’s the least guarantee-able player out there.

    Bedard is a mess of a disaster of a jerk. There’s virtually nothing to like about this guy from the “get me 200 innings” perspective. He’s hurt in two BAD places for a pitcher. He hates the media and he’s a jerk on top of it. Thankfully, that rumor was just garbage.

    Jonathan Sanchez doesn’t fit in this plan either, though he is intriguing. He’s an “upside” guy at this point. We need a “proven workhorse” kind of guy. I wouldn’t be upset to see him but I don’t think he’s a 200 IP / year guy yet.

    If the Reds took Nady for Harang their GM would get strung up. He had one off year with three years of exceptional production. No way they deal him for Nady.

    Arroyo is a good fit. So is Andy. So is Garland.

    Arroyo would cost player(s).
    Garland would command more than a one or two year deal – which we don’t want since we have so many young pitchers coming up in the next few years.
    Andy is the best fit.

  301. Al from BK December 30th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    “brad penny was a steal

    come back player of the yr, all-star appearence”

    Really? How do you expect Penny to make the all-star team with the following pitchers in the AL. Sabathia, Wang, Kazmir, Shields, Halladay, Lackey, Santana, Hernandez, Beckett, Lester, Dice K. Seriously you are giving too much credit to Penny if you think he is better than half those guys.

  302. Tom Gaffney December 30th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    Laura,

    Pettitte can’t pitch backwards the way Moose could. He simply does not have the arsenal to do it. Moose had a great curve, a great change and a good slider, while Andy’s repertoire has always been cutter, cutter, cutter, cutter, curve against lefties. He is not and never will be a finesse pitcher. When he can’t get guys out with the cutter anymore, he’s done.

  303. Andy December 30th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    yes

  304. OldYanksFan December 30th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    “Derek Lowe is not a better pitcher than Andy Pettitte, but reportedly he was going to be offered a multi-year (3,4?) contract at something like $12 mil per year?”

    ————————————————————
    And which teams has signed Lowe? And we should bargain with our players based on overblown Boras-type RUMORS flying around?

    Lowe has averaged an ERA+ of 124 over the last 3 years, and also over the last 2. Andy has an ERA+ of 104 over the last 2 years. Not saying Derek is better then Andy… just sayin.

    And ERA+ is league adjusted… although not quite enough when comparing a NL pitcher to an AL East pitcher.

  305. Andy December 30th, 2008 at 4:20 pm

    Tom Gaffney, you are a weasel!!!!

  306. yankee 822 December 30th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

    Tom – Excellent point. For him, it’s live and die by the cutter

  307. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 4:24 pm

    “For the record, I wanted to keep Abreu too. I hated watching him when balls were up against the wall, but LOVED watching him at the plate.”

    If Tex lives up to his billing, we won’t miss Bobby too much at the plate.

  308. Scott (Joba RULES!) December 30th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    OldYanksFan:

    Lowe had a 124 ERA+ in the NL West – pitching against bad offensive teams in enormous parks. Last time he was in the AL East he got tattooed.

    Right now on the Yankees, I’d take Andy for one year over Lowe for one year…and Lowe wants 4 years.

  309. DT December 30th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

    One of two things need to happen in the Andy “saga”.

    1. A legitimate offer needs to be made by another team. If someone else (think Beantown) offered Andy 11 mil or a two year deal – it might make the Yanks sweeten the pot.

    2. The Yankees need to place a deadline on their 10 mil deal. All these leaks in the media saying “the offer won’t be there forever” or “it’s 55/45 we are leaning against bringing Andy back” – are just posturing.

    In reality both sides need each other. They both know that.

    Last year’s rookie pitching fiasco is in Andy’s favor. The Yanks want the stability of a proven commodity.

    Andy stating he only wanted to play for NY and his desire to play in the new ballpark tilts things in the Yanks favor. They figure they can wait him out.

    It’s a stare down. Who will blink first?

  310. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 4:30 pm

    OYF -

    I did qualify my statement by saying if we were to believe the reports. :)

    And no, I don’t think the Yankees are valuing the players they are targeting based on the rumor of the day.

    My point was, really, that if Pettitte turns them down, they could end up paying more for someone else. Someone else who may or may not be a more effective pitcher than Pettitte for the Yankees.

    It just always seems to me that unless it is an obvious call, you should go with what you know, and in this case, that’s Pettitte. My thinking is it’s not worth $2 million to lose him. He may or may not be worth more than $10 million, but are the Yankees willing to lose him over $2 million?

    And I am aware that anything other than the $10 mil for one season is pure conjection and material for debate in this forum. I have no idea what the actual situation is, and don’t pretend to know. I just like this particular conversation. :)

  311. Al from BK December 30th, 2008 at 4:34 pm

    Lol. The trolls come out when the Yanks get Tex. Coincidence I think not ;) A lot of jealousy up in Bawwwston these days.

  312. Scott (Joba RULES!) December 30th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

    Update to my own post (vanity!)

    NL West teams runs / game averages:

    Colorado: 4.61 (8th in the NL)
    Arizona: 4.44 (10th)
    LAD: 4.32 (13th)
    SFG: 3.95 (15th)
    SDP: 3.93 (16th)

    Versus those teams last year, Lowe was:

    Arizona: 3-1, 2.05 ERA (30 IP)
    Colorado: 2-1, 3.26 ERA (19 IP)
    San Diego: 2-0, 1.40 ERA (19.1 IP)
    San Fran: 1-0, 2.57 ERA (21 IP)

    He’s a product of the NL West. If he’s smart, he stays there.

  313. Scott (Joba RULES!) December 30th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    Al from BK:

    Good. I like it better when the Yankees are hated!

  314. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    “I wanted Abreu to stay”

    Did i miss read these comments? We are talking about Abreu right. For a moment i thought it said Brad Pit with the 100% ladies support for Abreu in the last few minutes here. Thank god Cashman didnt offer arbitration to him. 8 mil is much different than 16 mil. We will be fine without him. Tex will do fine in the 3 slot and we will also get to look at a double play started by a first baseman again.

  315. Scott (Joba RULES!) December 30th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    S.o.S:

    And maybe we can get a RF who isn’t repulsed by the wall too!

  316. OldYanksFan December 30th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

    Doreen,

    I’d like to see Andy resign for 10. If the Yanls pay him 12… fine. I just don’t like these comments about the Yanks being cheap, or oweing Andy, or ‘they spent a gazillion on CC, why get cheap with Andy’ and stuff like that. #10m is a fair first offer, and in this market, maybe a fair price. We should not feel too badly for players who have made $50-$100m in their careers.

    These guys are ALL WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY overpaid.
    This is a terrible economy and many are suffering.
    So now players are only getting paid 3 times what they’re worth instead of 5 times.

    I know it was 40+ years ago, but Mickey was the first MLB player to make 6 figures. He was interviewed and asked how he felt making $100,000. Mickey was embarassed, making so much money TO PLAY BASEBALL. He said “I don’t know what I’ll do with all that money”.

    That was wayyyyyyyyyyyy back, when baseball was America’s pasttime.

  317. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 4:49 pm

    Amen Scott. We need someone to break in the new walls.

    Doreen,
    Lets look at it another way. Pettitte would be in the 4th or 5th slot. Is a 4th or 5th slot pitcher worth 10 to 12 mil? Boston just paid Penny 5 plus incentives for someone who has a 1 or 2 slot potential.

  318. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    “Did i miss read these comments? We are talking about Abreu right. For a moment i thought it said Brad Pit with the 100% ladies support for Abreu in the last few minutes here.”

    Clearly, it was the ladies on this blog that recognized what Bobby brought to the table offensively. Bobby pretty much went under the radar, but he was fairly clutch. You don’t drive in 100+ RBI for several years in a row w/o being clutch.

    I’ll miss Abreu, but I think that Tex will be a fine replacement in the #3 spot.

  319. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 4:50 pm

    Doreen,

    You are not understanding the concept. Andy is a 6 mil a year guy at best. He cant get out of big situations. He’s no Dice-K

  320. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

    OYF -

    I don’t think the Yankees are being cheap or that they owe Andy anything – nor does he owe them anything.

    They ARE all way too overpaid to play a game, but Brad Pitt et al. are way overpaid to make movies. We as Americans value our entertainment way too highly. Perhaps things will balance out a bit now that we may not have as much leisure, or at the very least, not as much spare change to spend on how we use that leisure time. Who knows, maybe we may even get creative and discover we can fill our own time without paying others to fill it for us. I know, I jest! :)

    My bottom, bottom, bottom line is I want the to sign Andy rather than a “stranger.” If it’s for $10 mil, fine, ’cause obviously that was acceptable to Pettitte in the end. If it’s for more, that’s fine, too. It’s pretty safe to say it won’t be for less, though, will it? :)

  321. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 4:54 pm

    “You are not understanding the concept. Andy is a 6 mil a year guy at best. He cant get out of big situations. He’s no Dice-K”

    Huh? Did you see the bug game? Andy wiggled out of jams that entire game. There were games earlier this season where he did the same as well.

    Andy is not the has been people are trying to make him out to be. It amazes me that he doesn’t get more respect for essentially “taking one for the team” during the second half.

  322. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    SoS -

    I don’t think I’m missing the concept. I understand that there are people who think Pettitte’s pretty much cooked. I don’t believe that. And I think the Yankees are counting on him for his usual 200 or so innings, in spite of being #4 or 5 in this rotation. I don’t know that the Red Sox are actually counting on Penny as much as hoping they get more than $5 million worth.

  323. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    “Boston just paid Penny 5 plus incentives for someone who has a 1 or 2 slot potential.”

    Boston is gambling on Penny. If the Yanks want to gamble, they can get a pitcher for less, too. I don’t think the Yanks are in a gambling mood.

    “These guys are ALL WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY overpaid.”

    I don’t see any baseball teams going bankrupt. Baseball’s revenues are going to go to either management or labor. No knock on Hank or Hal, but I would just as soon see it go to the players.

    Either way, your ticket prices and beer prices aren’t coming down.

  324. D Train December 30th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

    Andy would be a HUGE waste of money, like Igawa or Pavano.

    He is below league average at this stage of his career. At best, he will give us what Ponson did last year, but get paid $10+ million to do so.

  325. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    “Doreen,

    You are not understanding the concept. Andy is a 6 mil a year guy at best. He cant get out of big situations. He’s no Dice-K”

    Laura and Doreen,
    Wasnt me. Must be a bored troll.

  326. Wave Your Hat December 30th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    “He is below league average at this stage of his career.”

    I’d be interested to know what you think a league average pitcher looks like.

  327. jack December 30th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    andy is a bum

    lets sign someone like lieber, freddy garcia, kris benson, jason jennings, livan hernandez, etc. to a minor league deal

    don’t unnecessarily add payroll for bums

  328. Al from BK December 30th, 2008 at 5:02 pm

    I can’t believe Andy is just sitting on 10 million when other guys aren’t getting near that on the open market. Why not take 10 million and one last shot at a ring? 10 mil is nothing to sneeze at.

  329. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

    “Laura and Doreen,
    Wasnt me. Must be a bored troll.”

    More proof that Pete needs to find a way to add registration to the blog.

  330. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 5:04 pm

    “10 mil is nothing to sneeze at.”

    For you and me, no it’s not. But when you made 16mil the year before, 10mil is hard to jump at. I have no proof of this, but I still say Andy would take 12mil if it were offered.

  331. Yagi December 30th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

    Dic-K, beckett, Wakefield, penny, Lester = Yankee Killers

  332. Gary December 30th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

    Evidently Andy’s agents (the Hendricks brothers) have attended the Scott Boras Academy of Hard Bargaining.
    Andy has made good money in his career and $10 or 12 million for the tail end of his career shouldn’t be a step backward.
    If the average person walking down the street hits a lottery for that kind of money, they declare themself set for life unless they do something stupid.

  333. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

    I don’t understand people impersonating other people on a blog for cryin’ out loud. Sad, really. But the other stuff is very disturbing. I can’t imagine registration can hurt this blog at this point.

  334. 37YANK December 30th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

    YANKEERAY HAD BEST AND SMARTEST ITEM–PAY PETTITE 10M AND THAN 1M PER 25 INN’S..ANDY DESERVES IT..ANTHONY STATED THAT PETTITE ALWAYS READY TO TAKE THE BALL..YANKS NEED 1 MORE HITTER TO COMPLETE LINE-UP..A STEADY ABREU WOULD PROVIDE THAT IN THE 6TH SLOT-HI AVG. AND GOOD RBI’S..

  335. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 5:10 pm

    Does Favre remind anyone of Clemens? Cant make his damn mind if he wants to stay or retire. Wants to be begged back every year and cant face it that age has caught up to him.

  336. Peter Abraham December 30th, 2008 at 5:11 pm

    Guys:

    We’ve been working on a registration plan that will be starting on or around the New Year. More details to come on the blog.

    In the meantime, just ignore the trolls. The company that owns the paper has some people looking into it. It’s out of my hands.

  337. freddy k December 30th, 2008 at 5:11 pm

    Brett Ratliff throwing 50 yard bombs to Anquan Bolden with Bill Cowher cheering on the sidelines

  338. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 5:11 pm

    “I can’t imagine registration can hurt this blog at this point.”

    Doreen, I don’t know what all goes into implementing registration. My guess is that there must be some cost associated with it. I don’t know why else Pete wouldn’t have put it in by now.

  339. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! December 30th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

    Doreen – :)

    Those of us with a heart recognized something wonderful in Bobby Abreu.

    S.O.S. – it went beyond his pretty smile and his dimples! Honest.

    :lol:

    Seriously, the guy could hit, he could run, and he played his heart out, in my opinion. He was consistent and kept us in the hunt. And he was a team player who never let down. I won’t get into his fielding since I know that is a sore point here – but I think he was a fine fielder and I don’t think he was THAT afraid of the wall…

    I do feel very sad that the Yanks didn’t offer him anything (yet?)

  340. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

    That’s great news, Pete. Thanks!!

  341. Guard December 30th, 2008 at 5:15 pm

    It’s going to cost Pete a ton of hits on this blog and probably less contributors (by creating a registration system) but it’s really the only way to eliminate the trolls.

  342. Tom December 30th, 2008 at 5:17 pm

    Man alive! the registration plan is a great idea.

  343. Trevor December 30th, 2008 at 5:19 pm

    Anyone know that Boston called the Marlins about Hanley Ramirez?

  344. Tom December 30th, 2008 at 5:19 pm

    Pettitte or Pettitte’s agent is most likely miffed because the Yankees didn’t offer him arbitration.

  345. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    “Man alive! the registration plan is a great idea.”

    This is the only blog iv ever posted on. Will i need to give up my first born to register? Is it complicated?

  346. Al from BK December 30th, 2008 at 5:25 pm

    Laura- 10 million is just fine for an aging mid-rotation lefty. Also the economy has changed drastically since Andy signed his last deal. Especially given how poor Andy pitched down the stretch 10 million is more than fair.

  347. RonH December 30th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    Registration seems like a good idea, Pete.

  348. Soul December 30th, 2008 at 5:28 pm

    Mike Shannahan fired in Denver… Jets should make a move on him if they miss out on Cowher

  349. Laura December 30th, 2008 at 5:29 pm

    “Especially given how poor Andy pitched down the stretch 10 million is more than fair.”

    Al, I’ve debated this at length with numerous people here. I’m not changing my opinion. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Either that or I can just hit you over the head with the same rolled up newspaper I’m going to use on Tim if he talks about the Yankees signing Manny again. What’s your pleasure?

    :)

  350. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 5:32 pm

    Doreen at 5:30 wasn’t me.

    But I guess I should be “flattered” that I’ve joined the ranks of the imitated! :lol:

  351. Doreen December 30th, 2008 at 5:33 pm

    Time to cook dinner. Catch you all later. :)

  352. Katie December 30th, 2008 at 5:34 pm

    Registration is a good plan for this blog. It is one, if not the best, blog for the Yankees I’ve read in a long time.

    This people who post ridiculous things will be out of the equation so the true Yankee fans can post here without the bother.

  353. joltin joe December 30th, 2008 at 5:35 pm

    shanahan fired

  354. Al from BK December 30th, 2008 at 5:38 pm

    Laura- I want Manny just for the insane offense we would field :)

  355. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 5:39 pm

    “But I guess I should be “flattered” that I’ve joined the ranks of the imitated!”

    I second that. Its even more impressive to imitate me with all the miss spelled words and bad voacabulary my posts intales.

    Oh and this is really me.

  356. Katie December 30th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

    Al from BK,
    Manny on the Yankees would put our offense over the top. I doubt it will happen for the simple fact the Brewers owner would probably resourt to violence because it “isn’t fair” how the Yankees spend.

    I know this will sound bad, but I wish I could smack him, and all the others who are acting like this. If they had the money they would do the SAME thing.

  357. Tom December 30th, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    S.o.S, most of the time registering involves giving the basic personal info (real name, ect..) to set up an account. The info is usually confidential. I’m sure you will be able to keep your screen name.

    It seems as if it’s being done to keep the troll(s) from saying those awful libellous things about the blogs author.

  358. Phil Parcells December 30th, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    firing shanahan – that’s cold.

  359. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    “shanahan fired”

    Over rated.

  360. Lance December 30th, 2008 at 5:46 pm

    Interestingly, Pettitte’s FIP of 3.67 last year was his best since his career year of 2005 (3.20). He improved his K:BB from 2.04 in ’07 to 2.87 last year. Maybe he wasn’t as bad as we seem to remember. Not that I necessarily advocate giving him $16 million, but maybe bumping up to $12 million would be reasonable. We need the depth. However, if Garland can be had cheaply, that may be preferable, even though he’s not as good. He eats innings, which is what we need.

  361. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 5:47 pm

    Thank you Tom. It doesnt sound complicated.

    I’ll be sure to spend nights next to my computer just to make sure to register before that TROLL can steal my screen name. Without it, im nobody.

  362. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    Garland will cost as much as Pettitte, maybe more. He’s not left handed, not as good, and he won’t be signing for 1 year, either. He’ll be less than average and blocking the growth of pitchers from the minors.

  363. E-Man December 30th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    “The Yankees don’t just need a No. 5 starter. They need a No. 6 and No. 7 starter. Joba will need a break. You don’t want to abuse Sabathia. Burnett is Burnett. Wang is coming off a serious injury.”

    Pete, this is why teams have minor league systems. That’s where the “No. 6 and No. 7 starters” come from. Yankees only need a No. 5 should Pettitte not come back.

  364. Joey December 30th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

    I think it’s Pettitte or they will just go with Hughes/Aceves/Kennedy/Coke.

    I don’t it’s a bad thing to have those guys battle it out for the 5 spot. I mean the Twins had 3 or 4 young guys in their rotation and they did fine. You might want to invite a guy like Freddy Garcia or Kris Benson to ST and see what they’ve got.

    If you’re looking at another FA, though. How about a guy no one has mentioned yet….John Smoltz? Talk about a high reward versatile pitcher that may be had for a low risk deal.

  365. Katie December 30th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

    If Pettitte doesn’t sign as our number 5 I would like Phil Hughes to get his chance.

    Either that or offer Sheets a Penny type deal and let Phil and Aceves fill in for the injuries

  366. yankees fan December 30th, 2008 at 6:03 pm

    check this out:

    “Hail The Champions”
    (SWB Yankees)

    lvironpigs.wordpress.com

    Also search : “Hughes, Kennedy Headed For Scranton?”
    “IronPigs Stomp Yankees”

  367. Kevin December 30th, 2008 at 6:09 pm

    “brad penny was a steal
    come back player of the yr, all-star appearence”

    Brad Penny’s career interleague stats:

    7-11, 5.08 ERA

    Combined with the fact that he’s coming off an injury plagued season and his stuff is already worsening, I would bet any amount on both of the above assertions not coming true.

  368. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    Lets hope that Penny turns out to be Colon 2 for them.

  369. DT December 30th, 2008 at 6:19 pm

    Pete wrote –
    “In theory, Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Alfredo Aceves could give you those 200 innings. But that assumes the other four starters stay healthy and do what is expected. That’s a big assumption.”

    IMO – that’s the rub. The Yankees assume “we’ll give Andy 10 mil – that’s good money for a #5 starter”.

    Andy probably feels he’s better than a low end #5 – and he’s probably correct.

    I would argue, because of the inning limits for Joba – Andy is more correctly a #4. He won’t be getting skipped with rainouts/off days etc.

    If injuries occurred to any of the top 3 (Wang, CC, AJ) – the Yanks would feel lucky having Andy in the wings – would they think of him as a #5 then? (btw..last year, they penciled in Andy as a #2.)

    I know incentive laden contracts are not the Yankee norm but that might be the way to go with Andy. I might even do something more creative (if it was legal)- if any of the big 3 miss extended DL time – Andy gets a bump in pay since he would be even more valuable to the team.

  370. Sevrx December 30th, 2008 at 6:19 pm

    If Andy doesn’t come back, then Hughes is the #5. I think that is pretty clear. Doesn’t sound like Cash wants to sign Lowe or Sheets… so Hughes it is.

  371. Davis December 30th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

    Jets need to hire Shanahan

  372. jim December 30th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    I was reading that the mets were going after lowe/perez and wolf this week.

    The article also said that the price dropped and mets could get perez/lowe both for what 1 would have cost before.

    the yanks can’t let that happen.

    If the price for perez drops, the yanks should consider signing him.
    He is a lefty and he is in his twenties.

    sabathia
    burnett
    wang
    perez
    chamberlain

    that would be 2 lefty and 3 righty with burnett at 32 and the other 4 in their 20′s

    then Hughes , Kennedy , Etc can be 6 and 7 and replace any injuries

    If that clicks it would be a rotation in its prime for the next 4 years.

  373. Katie December 30th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    The whole Andy situation is tricky for me. I do want him back for a year but not for the amount of money he wants. He didn’t pitch very well last year towards the end of the year so I think he should take the 10 mil.

    However I think the Yanks should up the offer to 12-14 mil. If that’s what it takes to get him than Cash has to do it. Injured or not Pettitte will still pitch, and that’s whatthe Yanks need.

  374. Darrell Riffraff December 30th, 2008 at 6:26 pm

    Let’s not overrate Brad Penny on here, folks. No one has any idea what to expect from him. He’s just as likely to not make it out of spring training as he is to revert to his Marlin form. Whoever equated this to the Bartolo Colon signing is right on target.

    I’m not going to necessarily equate this to the Yanks giving Eric Milton and Victor Zambrano a looksee last year, but it’s certainly not C.C. Sabathia either.

  375. Davis December 30th, 2008 at 6:30 pm

    Aceves is a flash in the pan… Hughes will beat him in any open competition. And Ian Kennedy? really?

    Hughes will be the #5

  376. Buddy Biancalana December 30th, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    I could see Andy putting up Mussina numbers if he comes back.

  377. Katie December 30th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

    Buddy Biancalana,
    That would be great if Andy did that. He would go out on top just like the Moose. But given what happened last year, he has a lot of work to do. But for his sake, I hope he does.

  378. Bill DiBongrazio December 30th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    2 years ago Andy Pettite pitched that beautiful game (the nat game) in the playoff’s 7 inn o runs against cleveland. He can be awesome in the playoffs as we know, he just grinds it out. By the way who do you think was the last Yankee pitcher to win a play-off game?? Phil Hughes….
    Don’t go by last year with this kid, I think its been documented pretty good he tried to pitch thru a rib cage injury. Kennedy had a sore shoulder towards the end also but he was just ineffective when he was healthy. I bring these points up to say, don’t under estimate Pettite, he could easily bounce back strong, probably sore and a little fatigued towards the end of last year, pitched real well in the first half and Hughes will be fine he just needs more innings under his belt, his last 2 starts last year were outstanding and he pitched well in winter ball.

  379. Fire Meachum December 30th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    Penny is a shell of himself– his fastball isin’t anything close to what it was. Looks like Jaret Wright now.

    Not a bad insurance pick up though

  380. Katie December 30th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

    Don’t these immature people have better things to do than try to pretend they are other people.

    Really get a life

  381. Scott December 30th, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    I just don’t want to Sidney Ponson, Darrell Rasner, Carl Pavano or any other MLB wanna-be’s trying to squeeze into the 5th slot for the Yanks. Last year was brutal. I think Brad Penny would have been too much an injury risk (worse than Burnett) so that wouldn’t have been the answer, even if he did go to Boston. I am surprised that the Yanks, so far, haven’t included any performance incentives in their $10 mil offer to Andy. I would like to see bonuses for innings pitched and perhaps give him a chance to make up some, but not all of the difference between $10 mil and $16 mil. Otherwise, I’d like to see Cash go for someone with potential…on the verge of a breakout season. Easier said than done, but not impossible.

  382. Bill DiBongrazio December 30th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

    In case anyone forgot, Andy Pettite pitched a real nice game in the palyoffs against the Indians 2 yrs ago, 7 Inn 0 runs (the Joba nat game?) and Phil Huges is the last Yankee pitcher to win a playoff game for the Yanks. It would not be a stretch to see both these hurlers put in strong performances this season. I agree though we need both of them and not just one, just for insurance.

  383. bru December 30th, 2008 at 6:46 pm

    G. Love

    wakefield wins aside had way better numbers than pettitte & mussina in 08.

    181 innings-154 hits,1018 whip & batters hit only 2.28 against him.

    they are excellent numbers.

    go compare his numbers to pettitte’s & mussina’s before you say “He’s not as bad as Wakefield. He’s not just a arm we throw out there hoping for 5 innings” & he is getting paid 3 or 4 million a year.

  384. bru December 30th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    1.18 whip

  385. Yankee girl December 30th, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    Bedard is another Pavano and is a head case, hates the media and is reclusive in the clubhouse.
    Andy is yanking their chain . Tell him to take his made up offer of 36 million for 3 years and move on.
    Sign Jon Garland or try for a trade for Matt Cain.
    Trade Nady , Cabrera and Matsui . Trade for Ankiel and DeJesus .

  386. Yankee Trader December 30th, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    Jason Marquis for Luis Vizcaino. Not a big Marquis fan, but that’s a steal for the Rockies.

    Believe the Yankees would best be served with a 2nd lefty in the starting rotation, and hoping Pettitte comes back for one year. If Oliver Perez’ price comes down as well as years would be interested. IMO missed out on a decent lefty in Scott Olsen, who was dumped on the Nationals.

  387. Yankee Trader December 30th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

    “Sign Jon Garland or try for a trade for Matt Cain.
    Trade Nady , Cabrera and Matsui . Trade for Ankiel and DeJesus .”

    Jon Garland IMO would be like getting stuck with Carlos Silva.
    Matt Cain is not getting traded. Sanchez maybe.
    Ankiel is a Boras client and a poor CF’er-had 4 assists and 8 errors.
    Would like DeJesus as a corner outfielder.

  388. S.o.S. December 30th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

    Angels have been blanked so far this season. Perfect chance to trade a Matsui for Figgins in center.

  389. Slurve December 30th, 2008 at 7:02 pm

    Bedard is easily better than Matsui and He’ll be ready by ST his injury wasn’t as serious as people think. If healthy he is CY Young Caliber or a solid number 2.

  390. Lance December 30th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

    “Garland will cost as much as Pettitte, maybe more. He’s not left handed, not as good, and he won’t be signing for 1 year, either. He’ll be less than average and blocking the growth of pitchers from the minors.”

    I have my doubts about that. He wouldn’t cost more than Pettitte unless he’s better than Pettitte, and I haven’t read of a single team that’s tried to sign him yet. You may be right that he won’t be signing for one year, but that’s not necessarily a problem. Anyone who makes 32+ starts for seven years in a row must be doing something right. Even if he’s not the best pitcher, I’d rather see him take some innings and some pressure off the young kids. Good young pitchers are rarely blocked. If one or more of them emerge, then Garland can be traded, as long as we don’t overpay for him. The price is the main factor.

    “If you’re looking at another FA, though. How about a guy no one has mentioned yet….John Smoltz? Talk about a high reward versatile pitcher that may be had for a low risk deal.”

    That could be a good Brad Penny-like signing, but Penny got $5 million and Smoltz, depending on the nature of his injury, could be asking for more. The $6 million that could be spent on a risky (in terms of innings) John Smoltz could just be given to Pettitte instead. We need stability, not upside.

  391. bru December 30th, 2008 at 7:13 pm

    trisha – CC and AJ and Sheets – OH MY!
    December 30th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
    “Good defense of your argument Trisha.”

    Let’s put it this way. The posters on this forum who also believe Andy isn’t worth $16 mil and think that $10 mil is more than fair understand my “argument”. I’m not here to try to convince anyone of anything. I’m doing what everyone else here is doing – stating my opinion. Only I don’t flip out and cry when someone doesn’t agree with my opinion.

    ————————————————————

    but we have more concrete evidence to support our opinion.

    becket-10.1 million
    dice-k-10.3 million
    kashmir-3.7 million
    wang-5 million
    Roy Halladay-10 million
    John Lackey-7.3 million
    Brandon Webb-5.5 million
    Danny Haren-4 million
    Jake Peavy-6.5 million

    only a handfull of pitchers make over 10 million.the elite ones like cc,oswalt,santaana,mo,k-rod & the other ones are simply overpaid by the yankees.

    pettitte is not on the same planet as any of the above & wakefield had a much better 08 than pettitte & is getting 3 or 4 million.

    if the yankees wan’t to pay pettitte 30 million a year that is their business but if they do not wan’t to pay him more than 5 million then that is also their business because he is not worth even 10 million from what i see other pitchers getting paid.

  392. GreenBeret7 December 30th, 2008 at 7:31 pm

    bru
    December 30th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
    but we have more concrete evidence to support our opinion.

    becket-10.1 million
    dice-k-10.3 million
    kashmir-3.7 million
    wang-5 million
    Roy Halladay-10 million
    John Lackey-7.3 million
    Brandon Webb-5.5 million
    Danny Haren-4 million
    Jake Peavy-6.5 million

    ————————————————————

    I rewalize that most things are beyond you, but, all of those pitchers you listed all signed contract extensions when they were younger, buying out their arbitration years. That is why they’re making less, because they were going for the higher money than usual……they wanted guaranteed security. Make sense to you, now?

  393. Jeremy December 30th, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    bru, what GB7 said. Take just about any pitcher on your list, make him a FA today, and see what kind of contract he can get. Let’s just say it’s going to pay well over $10 million per season.

    A quick look at FA pitching contracts shows that who can throw 200 innings and put up a league-average ERA can pull down $10 million. Hell, Carlos freaking Silva got 4 years/$48 million.

    Also, Dice-K came over from Japan with zero MLB service time and the Sox were willing to post over $50 million to sign him. He is not comparable to any veteran MLB pitcher.

    Finally, Peavy makes $47 million over the next three years. He is no longer a $6 million/year player.

  394. Jeremy December 30th, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    bru, what GB7 said. Take just about any pitcher on your list, make him a FA today, and see what kind of contract he can get. Let’s just say it’s going to pay well over $10 million per season.

    A quick look at FA pitching contracts shows that who can throw 200 innings and put up a league-average ERA can pull down $10 million. Hell, Carlos freaking Silva got 4 years/$48 million.

    Also, Dice-K came over from Japan with zero MLB service time and the Sox were willing to post over $50 million to sign him. He is not comparable to any veteran MLB pitcher.

    Finally, Peavy makes $47 million over the next three years. He is no longer a $6 million/year player.

  395. Sparky1019 December 30th, 2008 at 7:58 pm

    Trade and get Peavy. They made the mistake in not trading for Santana and look where that got them. As for Mussina, how on earth can you say you want him back? I thought the discussion was based on innings. He barely had games where he went past the 6th inning last season. He pitched 200.1 innings and made 34 starts. At the age of 40, do you really expect him to be able to make 34 starts? He didn’t miss a start in the 2008 I believe and that will take a toll on him if he were to pitch in 2009. If you want innings, get either Wolf or Redding just to soak up some innings. Or if their really desperate for this, go and get Lowe. But I still think that they should take the risk and trade for Peavy. It would certainly not be a mistake.

  396. Sparky1019 December 30th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    Another option is to trade Nady to the Giants for Sanchez. He’s a decent starter and they are looking to drop an outfielder. Odds are Nady won’t have the same type of season he had last season but you never know. Sanchez would be a good option.

  397. Yankee Trader December 30th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

    “Another option is to trade Nady to the Giants for Sanchez. He’s a decent starter and they are looking to drop an outfielder. Odds are Nady won’t have the same type of season he had last season but you never know. Sanchez would be a good option.”

    I’ve read that Sabean doesn’t want a player who will be a FA in 2010-Nady a Boras client.

  398. Yankeegirl49 December 30th, 2008 at 8:17 pm

    Mets offered Lowe 3/36…I can see Andy asking for 13 based upon that, and I can see the Yanks giving it to him.

    BTW..the other “Yankeegirl” needs to get a life.
    My first day here and I already have a troll stalker :)

  399. Betsy December 30th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

    Doreen, I usually agree with you, but not this time. I don’t feel badly for Andy at all. First off, IMO, the $10 million offer is more than fair. Andy is not CC or Burnett….it’s not like the Yankees gave big bucks to a couple of mediocre wannabes. If he wants more $$$, let him go put himself truly on the market – who’s going to give him what he wants? No one. I’m tired of his act and his “I only want to pitch for the Yankees” comment is less than believable at this point. The Yankees have to make a move towards solidifying the 5th spot in their rotation – and sooner rather than later. It’s only a month and a half until pitchers and catchers. Andy’s lack of acceptance is tantamount to a rejection, so If I’m the Yankees, I go and find a cheap, servicable starter who can bridge the gap to Phil in 2010.

    Speaking of Phil, the Andy situation should in no way affect his own. I believe the Yankees regret rushing him in 2007 and now want to rectify this. Injuries have not allowed him to pitch consistently – he can get that in AAA. He can also refine his repertoire and regain his FB command (all he has to do is pitch and that will come back to him). He’s almost, but not quite ready. The Yankees should have their franchise revoked if they decide that they are going to seriously consider Phil for the 5th spot (should Andy not re-sign) if they currently believe he’s not ready for it. They need to have a plan for him and stick with it.

  400. HANK S December 30th, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    WE NEED WARRIORS……WE NEED ROGER CLEMENS!!

  401. ham fighters December 30th, 2008 at 10:12 pm

    i keep pointing out that andy would be the #4 starter, not the #5. joba would be the #5 or else he’ll run out of innings in early august.

  402. gianthinker December 30th, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    If Andy doesn’t grow up and sign before new years I really hope Ca$hman re-considers Ben Sheets again. He’s the only guy out on the market with ace stuff. The guy started the All Star game this year the fact that he isn’t signed is a joke. I’d honestly rather bring him in than bring Andy back in the first place. I understand Sheets injury risk but if he or anyone else gets hurt we’ll still have Hughes, Aceves and others to fall back on. I’m sure by now we can sign him to a 2 year deal for something like $24MM which to me is a great risk.

    After Andy and Sheets I’d fall back on Jon Garland as long as he can be signed to a short term deal. I love Hughes and look forward to him pitching but with he and Joba on pitch counts and AJ being such a risk, not to mention Wang returning from injury, I really think we should add another arm so we still have the youngins to fill in when they are needed. Because eventually they will be needed. Thats just baseball. Ollie Perez would be my next after those three but only to again a short term deal. I’m honestly really hoping Ca$hman takes advantage of a poor market for Sheets and brings him in because IMO our #1-5 would ALL have ace potential at that point and we’d STILL have young talented pitchers in AAA to fill in.

  403. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother December 31st, 2008 at 9:21 am

    Any way you slice it the Yanks are in a good position to fill the #5 starter. They’ll probably end up signing Pettitte, but if not there are good FA’s out there (Sheets would be nice), Hughes is ready, and/or they have position players (OF’s) to trade for one (Sanchez, Harang?)if needed.
    No worries, it’s only January! Oh yeah, happy new year!

  404. Braintrust December 31st, 2008 at 10:23 am

    Pettitte is waiting to see what Lowe signs for, and then he’ll counter the Yanks offer. Lowe pitched better than Andy, but he was in the NL West, and is only a year younger. If Lowe gets 15-16M per, Andy will probably look for something comparable to that.

    Here’s Andy the past two seasons

    2007- 15W 9L – 215IP – 4.05 ERA
    2008- 14W 14L – 204IP- 4.54 ERA

    Andy will be 37 on June 15

    And here’s Lowe

    2007-12W 14L – 199IP- 3.88ERA
    2008- 14W 11L – 211IP- 3.24 ERA

    Lowe will be 36 on June 1

    Lowe had a better 2008 than Andy, but his ERA is a product of the National league. If he pitched in the AL, I would add a point. So Lowe’s 2008 would be like Andy’s 2007. Plus you need to sign Lowe for three years. So what’s the bargain? A 36 year old pitcher at 15M over three, or a 37 year old for one year at 14-15 per? I would pay Andy. The wildcard in this is if Andy wants more years. Than the Yanks should move on.

  405. Scott (Joba RULES!) December 31st, 2008 at 10:33 am

    Braintrust:

    I posted this a ways back in the thread. Applies to what you are saying:

    Here are the NL West teams runs / game averages for 2008:

    Colorado: 4.61 (8th in the NL)
    Arizona: 4.44 (10th)
    LAD: 4.32 (13th)
    SFG: 3.95 (15th)
    SDP: 3.93 (16th)

    Versus those teams last year, Lowe was:

    Arizona: 3-1, 2.05 ERA (30 IP)
    Colorado: 2-1, 3.26 ERA (19 IP)
    San Diego: 2-0, 1.40 ERA (19.1 IP)
    San Fran: 1-0, 2.57 ERA (21 IP)

    He’s a product of the NL West. His interleague stats are awful – ERA in the 5′s and worse peripherals.

    I don’t see him as being equal to Andy. I see him being a bust – and for three years at that.

  406. Braintrust December 31st, 2008 at 11:09 am

    I agree Scott,

    I know Andy had a down second half, but for the amount of money spent on Burnett, going to 14 or 15 on Andy isn’t a big deal as an insurance policy. Sabathia is a horse, but the rest of the rotation has question marks. Wang is returning from an injury, Burnett has a bad injury past, Joba was hurt last year, and has never pitched more than 100 innings in a season. behing those guys you have Kennedy and Hughes, who should both start the season in the minors. And then there’s Aceves, who pitched well last year in the minors, and a brief September stint, but is a mostly unknown commodity. Andy slots in well in the rotation ,and should bounce back healthy next year. Even if he only wins 14-15 games next year, he’ll give you 200 innings, and a 4 ERA. In the AL East, that’s not too shabby.

  407. tantron willoughby December 31st, 2008 at 11:18 am

    Andy has a quote from the past where he say’s it’s not about the money. It’s always about the money.

  408. jim December 31st, 2008 at 11:29 am

    How about trade Kennedy and Melky or Nady to SanDiego for Peavy. then sign Manny for Three Year as partime of and possible full time DH.

  409. Cathy December 31st, 2008 at 11:33 am

    Sign Derek Lowe…

  410. bardos December 31st, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    registration will prevent trolls from impersonating forum members. a troll will also most likely run out of e-mail addresses as they get banned each time the troll is banned, so yes, good idea.

  411. bardos December 31st, 2008 at 5:21 pm

    oh yeah, as to the remaining free agents… january slash and burn, then sign, promises to be an incredibly entertaining event. stay tuned.

  412. airandy41 January 1st, 2009 at 7:07 am

    HANK S
    December 30th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
    WE NEED WARRIORS……WE NEED ROGER CLEMENS!!

    Dear Hank S
    We need abusive steorid users! We need Roger Clemens!

  413. dave January 1st, 2009 at 6:34 pm

    As I haven’t read all of 400+ posts here, I apologize if someone has mentioned the point I’m about to make.

    While I agree with critics of Pettitte’s declining performance, steroid lying and “I don’t care about the money.” hypocrisy, I think it might be important to have a NY-tested, veteran starting pitcher around to show C.C. and A.J. the ropes in Yankee-Land. Because of his age, temperment and lack of communication skills, I don’t think Wang is the guy to help ease the transition for the newcomers — and Mussina is gone as well. If the Yankees acquire another new guy, we might have situation like with Hughes and Kennedy — where they clinged to each other in the dugout when things got rough. At the press conference, Burnett seems like he’s leaning on Sabathia already. Bad sign. Pettitte should be sitting between them, talking about past post-seasons — and how to handle the boo birds.

  414. Brads77 January 1st, 2009 at 11:05 pm

    Best available pitcher on market is Zack Greinke…Royals willing to listen for offers. Send them Hughes, Veras, Robertson, Melancon, and Swisher. Builds up their bullpen, and gives them a power hitter, plus Hughes fills his place in rotation. Look at Greinke’s outings last year…should have been 20 game winner with a good team. Guy is on verge of Beckett-like greatness.

  415. Brads77 January 1st, 2009 at 11:10 pm

    Also, unlike Lowe, Peavy, Sanchez, and Sheets, Greinke is an AL pitcher whose numbers already reflect adjustment to AL DH rules. He is also a big game pitcher. KC is only listening to offers because they will lose him in two years and know they can’t sign him. This is best time to get max value.


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