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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Watching 1956 in 2009

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 02, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

I have no idea what MLB Network plans for the future. But hopefully it includes more old games like the 1956 World Series game they showed last night.

Beyond that it was Don Larsen’s perfect game, it was pretty cool to see actual game footage of Mickey Mantle, Jackie Robinson, Country Slaughter, Yogi Berra, Duke Snider, Gil Hodges, etc.

Two things struck me: How normal-sized the players are and how big the pre-renovation Yankees Stadium was. Oh, and Vin Scully still sounds exactly the same.

How cool were the commercials? You could get a razor, a travel case and a mini Baseball Encyclopedia for $1! Meanwhile, Larsen throws a perfecto in the Series and just walks off the mound in the direction of the dugout. He would have kept on walking, too, but Yogi jumped in his arms.

MLB Network will surely have plenty of news shows and live games. But hopefully we’ll get some more of these historic games in their entirety. What a treat that was.

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298 Responses to “Watching 1956 in 2009”

  1. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 2nd, 2009 at 10:00 am

    I was struck by how slim and trim the home plate umpire was. That must have been before the addition of trans fats to umpire’s diets!

    :D

  2. Tom January 2nd, 2009 at 10:00 am

    I would love to see games where Sandy Koufax, or Bob Gibson pitch.

  3. Anthony M. January 2nd, 2009 at 10:08 am

    I was kind of disappointed in the Hot Stove show. In my opinion, those segments on Josh Hamilton and Roberto Clemente (as a Puerto Rican youth, it was nice learning more about a player my people take such pride in) were nice, I felt it didn’t have a place on a Hote Stove show. That Yankee discussion was pretty good but they ended the conversation about Joba Chamberlain too soon.

    It was an alright show but it needs improvement

  4. Fran January 2nd, 2009 at 10:08 am

    It was fun watching the game with the commentary. Also I noticed how fast the game was – one commercial between innings, no instant replays and minimal graphics (basically just the players’ names).

  5. Stephen January 2nd, 2009 at 10:15 am

    I found it interesting how mild the crowd reaction was after the last out. It was a perfect game and a World Series victory for the home team, and while there was plenty of polite applause, everyone just filed out after a minute or so.

  6. Drive 4-5 January 2nd, 2009 at 10:19 am

    I was struck by how genuinely unassuming Don Larson is. Watching Larson and Yogi interact was heartwarming.Those smiles they had watching the last out was precious. They prove that you can accomplish great things and still keep your dignity. Without naming naes, a lot of today’s players should watch these guys and learn.

    I was astounded to hear that Larson didnt know he had a perfect game or even knew what a perfect game was! It certainly was a different era. My brother and I were trying to figure out when it was that men stopped wearing suits to baseball games.

  7. T15D23 January 2nd, 2009 at 10:22 am

    It was great to watch.

    I just kept thinking how great these player were and how a guy like A-Rod would not even be in the league, let alone cashing in a $30M per year check, if he was around then.

    You don’t have to go that far back to see the size of the players smaller than today, look at Bucky Dent and the teams of the 70′s and up until 1987 before we saw the “Bash Brothers.”

    And it was wonderful that the focus was on the game or should I say the action, it has been a long time since you actually saw the players take the field, MLB knows how to bilk the most out ad revenue, even to the point of missing the first pitch of an inning because of a commercial break, plus the clutter of the screen promoting stupid shows of the network.

    Best way to watch a game? Go to the park.

  8. Stephen January 2nd, 2009 at 10:25 am

    It’s fascinating to think about Larsen’s career. He was a decent but pretty mediocre pitcher (a losing career record), yet he’s known for the best, most famous pitching performance in the history of baseball. Not bad at all.

  9. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 10:26 am

    Stephen
    January 2nd, 2009 at 10:15 am
    I found it interesting how mild the crowd reaction was after the last out. It was a perfect game and a World Series victory for the home team, and while there was plenty of polite applause, everyone just filed out after a minute or so.

    ————————————————————

    There were no field mics to pick up the sound, and, after games, everyone just gathered at the local watering holes around the park and in Manhatten. Larsen was going to be at most of them. He didn’t get the name “Night Rider” for nothing.

  10. joltin joe January 2nd, 2009 at 10:27 am

    stephen

    things were different back then. did you see all the suits in the crowd. people were more formal and stiff, not as emotional and “free” as today or as some fans seem to think, “liberated.” No swearing, more respect for the children. Less alchohol and drugs.

  11. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 10:30 am

    Tom
    January 2nd, 2009 at 10:00 am
    I would love to see games where Sandy Koufax, or Bob Gibson pitch.

    ————————————————————

    If you buy the MLB.com subscription, you can watch Gibson, Koufax and a ton of others on the web. There are some great games, there. It also gives you access to all of the games during the season…both video and radio. It’s a huge benefit if you travel during the season.

  12. Yankee U January 2nd, 2009 at 10:31 am

    I loved the fact that the announcers knew that they were there to report the game and they were not the show.

  13. joltin joe January 2nd, 2009 at 10:34 am

    yankee u

    did u notice how scully never mentioned the no-hitter, no less perfect game. that’s class. kaye and his iconoclastic self would be screaming out ‘no-hitter” every at-bat. and how great was Mel Allen.

  14. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 10:34 am

    trisha – CC and AJ and Sheets – OH MY!
    January 2nd, 2009 at 10:00 am
    I was struck by how slim and trim the home plate umpire was. That must have been before the addition of trans fats to umpire’s diets!

    ————————————————————

    The umpires didn’t wear all of that inside protection bck then. outside balloon chest protector and shin guards were it.

  15. Tom January 2nd, 2009 at 10:36 am

    “It’s fascinating to think about Larsen’s career. He was a decent but pretty mediocre pitcher (a losing career record), yet he’s known for the best, most famous pitching performance in the history of baseball. Not bad at all.”

    He had a career ERA of 3.78. To put it in perspective of today-where pitchers like Wang and Burnett are considered front end of the rotation starters with career ERAs of 3.79 and 3.81 respectively.

  16. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Yankee U
    January 2nd, 2009 at 10:31 am
    I loved the fact that the announcers knew that they were there to report the game and they were not the show.

    ————————————————————

    You’d definately be no fan of Dizzy Dean, PeeWee Reese or Bob Uecker, then. They were and are great viewing.

  17. Fran January 2nd, 2009 at 10:45 am

    GreenBeret 7,

    Do you know how many games a week a team would broadcast back in the 50s and 60s? Was it almost a whole season of games like now or a few a week? And I would guess you only got the local team in your area so you only heard your teams announcers.

  18. Fernando Alejandro (Respect Jeter's Gangster) January 2nd, 2009 at 10:45 am

    Stephen,

    That’s true about Larsen. The reason he was even pitching that day is that he only lasted like 3 inning I think the start before. Then he throws a perfect game. That’s the beauty of baseball though. A 30 homerun guy like Maris can break the single season homerun record, and a bottom of the rotation pitcher can throw the only perfect game in the world series.

  19. Hendo January 2nd, 2009 at 10:46 am

    I have service electric cable and I couldn’t find the channel >_< according to the mlb network’s website it’s channel 115 lol unfortunately the channels only go up to the 80s

  20. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 10:48 am

    Tom
    January 2nd, 2009 at 10:36 am
    “It’s fascinating to think about Larsen’s career. He was a decent but pretty mediocre pitcher (a losing career record), yet he’s known for the best, most famous pitching performance in the history of baseball. Not bad at all.”

    He had a career ERA of 3.78. To put it in perspective of today-where pitchers like Wang and Burnett are considered front end of the rotation starters with career ERAs of 3.79 and 3.81 respectively.

    ————————————————————

    Having records of 3-21 and 1-10 seasons didn’t help his win-loss record. With the Yanks, he was no more than a spot starter, but, look at his WS numbers…pretty impressive. He could throw hard, but, he was only a minor add-on when NYY got Bob Turley in an 18 player deal with Baltimore.

    How wacky and non-plussed was Don Larsen? On the day he pitched his perfect game, his wife served him with divorce papers.

  21. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 10:55 am

    Fran
    January 2nd, 2009 at 10:45 am
    GreenBeret 7,

    Do you know how many games a week a team would broadcast back in the 50s and 60s? Was it almost a whole season of games like now or a few a week? And I would guess you only got the local team in your area so you only heard your teams announcers.

    ————————————————————

    Most teams like the Chicago teams, Detroit and St. Louis teams showed all of the games. WGN Chicago showed the Cubs games in the day time and White Sox at night, so, some days there were three games, but, almost always two games. WPIX also showed most of the Yankee games. CBS always had a Saturday and Sunday national game…almost always a Yankee game (they were the big money draws even then). NBC also had 1 or 2 games a week. The gret thing…no blackouts.

  22. truantbuick January 2nd, 2009 at 11:00 am

    The pitchers were still pretty huge back then for the most part. Larsen is still an easy 6’4″ today, towering over David Wells when I saw him at the old stadium last season.

  23. murphydog January 2nd, 2009 at 11:05 am

    You only get one chance to make a first impression. Aside from seeing Larsen’s WS perfecto, which was a fun experience to ahare with my dad, MLB TV’s in-studio programming had little “wow” factor.

    Given their priority access to players and games and everything else in The Bigs, MLB has natural advantages that should be keeping the Boys in Bristol (ESPN) up at night. But MLB TV needs to use their advantages well. Unfortunately, once the game was over, the first night was spent gently breaking us in, introducing everybody like it was the first day at the new job. While true for them, it shouldn’t have been that obvious to us.

    I did appreciate Heyman’s and Verducci’s insights, but they aren’t exclusive to MLB TV. Between their written work and all the other places they show up, they weren’t exactly the “wow” factor I was hoping for. Al Leiter may know pitching, but the Joba Chamberlain discussion last night on MLB was way too superficial, in addition to being too brief. What exactly was the rush? It’s January. It’s not like they had a live game to get to. On the other hand, that “re-enactment” of Jackie Robinson stealing home on Yogi was way too long and, IMHO, pretty lame. You mean to tell me that a lefty going into a wind-up with Jackie Robinson on third and a right handed batter at the plate made it easier to steal home? Wow. Glad I tuned in. And the predictable Josh Hamilton feel good story? I wish Josh the best, but, what was new in MLB’s little video last night?

    I suppose MLB has a desire to convert some pagans, er, I mean, non-baseball people, and thus expand the fan base (simultaneously expanding the number of suckers who buy overpriced MLB licensed swag). That’s fine; it is America after all and even MLB has to pay the bills. I just hope MLB TV’s in-studio stuff doesn’t turn into an overblown baseball infomercial, a big budget version of YES Network’s “Kids on Deck.” Unfortunately, if opening night was any indication, I’m not holding my breath for any improvement over ESPN’s low-brow coverage. About the only saving grace from MLB’s stuido programming last night was not having to look at or listen to Stephen A. Smith.

  24. Fran January 2nd, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Green Beret 7,

    That’s amazing. I would have thought that there would have been just a few games a week. And the games apparently were on free TV right, so I guess you could sit and watch games all day like now, and not even pay for it.

  25. harwood January 2nd, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Larsen and Yogi need an invite to one of AJ’s games this year.

  26. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 11:10 am

    ” On the day he pitched his perfect game, his wife served him with divorce papers.”

    if she did it before the game, maybe he was so happy it inspired him to throw the perfect game.

    however it happened, it would be amusing hearing it from larsen now.

  27. Erik A. January 2nd, 2009 at 11:11 am

    I have Comcast, and the MLB Network just wouldn’t show up. It kept saying “This channel will be available shortly.” I am gutted.

  28. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 11:13 am

    truantbuick
    January 2nd, 2009 at 11:00 am
    The pitchers were still pretty huge back then for the most part. Larsen is still an easy 6’4” today, towering over David Wells when I saw him at the old stadium last season.

    ————————————————————

    Oddly, they were the sam weight and weight during their primes. Larsen was big for a pitcher back then. One of the few that were as tall as Larsen was Gene Conley, at 6 foot 8 inches…Conley also played for the Celts as well as pitching for Boston, Phillie and Milwaukee. Conley’s the only player to win world titles in two sports, with the Braves and Celts.

  29. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Correction: Oddly, they were the ***same*** weight and ***height***

  30. Yankee U January 2nd, 2009 at 11:16 am

    GB, I grew up listening to Red Barber and Mel Allen and I don’t remember hearing Dean or Reese do games. I never had a problem with the “homer” guys like the Scooter. It’s the geniuses like McCarver that I can’t stand, even when he was doing the Yankee broadcasts.

  31. Bubba January 2nd, 2009 at 11:17 am

    As someone pointed out, the games were faster back then. For all the current complaining and pressure to enforce the rules about time between pitches, it is clear that the main reason that the games are much longer now is the commercials between innings.

  32. Bubba January 2nd, 2009 at 11:19 am

    Yankee U,

    Dean did the Saturday national games and Pee Wee was his sidekick. Ol’ Diz could be hilarious.

  33. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 11:19 am

    randy l
    January 2nd, 2009 at 11:10 am
    ” On the day he pitched his perfect game, his wife served him with divorce papers.”

    if she did it before the game, maybe he was so happy it inspired him to throw the perfect game.

    however it happened, it would be amusing hearing it from larsen now.

    ————————————————————

    Most likely, he was so happy to be rid of “The Old Ball And Chain”, all he could think of was that now it wouldn’t cut in on the party time. Not that his partying wasn’t the reason for the divorce, to begin with. Imagine, Mantle, Ford, Martin, Bauer, Larsen, Ryne Duran and Stengel walking in to bar at night? You could retire on what they spent.

  34. Trevor January 2nd, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Now that the holidays are over, when is the Texiera press conference?

  35. Gus G. January 2nd, 2009 at 11:21 am

    I don’t know if anyone else had the same problem I did, but the channel kept blacking out during the game (on TWC). I missed the 5th, 6th, some of the eighth and the end of the game.

    On a side note, not to knock Larsen but I could see how he got a perfect game now. That ump was calling all the pitches outside the plate for a strike (same for Maglie)… good thing they didn’t have computers in baseball back then or he would’ve been demoted.

    It was also very interesting to watch the commercials. Pretty funny stuff!

  36. Bubba January 2nd, 2009 at 11:21 am

    There wese interesting racial elements in the game, too. Robinson got booed after one at bat. Enos “Country” Slaughter was a well known racist. And the first Yankee black man, Elston Howard, could be seen warming up the pitchers between innings.

  37. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 11:23 am

    I have to say, the idea of being able to watch vintage games is pretty cool, especially as a history student.

  38. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Yankee U
    January 2nd, 2009 at 11:16 am
    GB, I grew up listening to Red Barber and Mel Allen and I don’t remember hearing Dean or Reese do games. I never had a problem with the “homer” guys like the Scooter. It’s the geniuses like McCarver that I can’t stand, even when he was doing the Yankee broadcasts.

    ————————————————————

    Dean and Reese teamed up in 1960 to do the CBS Games Of The week. Dean was brought in, in large part because the women loved him and his recipes and humor. Reese was the straight guy.

    He was a great listen, but, not necessarily to the CBS people. One day, he remarked to Reese, “I don’t know why they call this the Game Of The Week, there’s a better game between the Giants and Dodger over on NBC.”

  39. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 11:26 am

    I’m a huge Giants fan but THANK YOU THOMAS JONES !

    If any Jets fan is looking for a future captain Thomas Jones just entered his feet into team wide respect. The only Jet willing to step out into the media and call it like it is w/ Farve.

  40. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Bubba
    January 2nd, 2009 at 11:21 am
    There wese interesting racial elements in the game, too. Robinson got booed after one at bat. Enos “Country” Slaughter was a well known racist. And the first Yankee black man, Elston Howard, could be seen warming up the pitchers between innings.

    ————————————————————

    All of which has nothing to do with anything other than your stupidity.

  41. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Brandon: Totally.

    I mean, 8-3 and you don’t make the playoffs?

    At least Lions fans have the luxury of knowing their team is bad; they don’t have to pretend!

  42. Schmidt394 January 2nd, 2009 at 11:29 am

    “first yankee black man”? What?

  43. Schmidt394 January 2nd, 2009 at 11:30 am

    I think many of the games MLB network will show are already available on itunes

  44. Trevor January 2nd, 2009 at 11:30 am

    “There where interesting racial elements in the game, too”
    I noticed the same thing in the razor commercials.

  45. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 11:31 am

    Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees)
    January 2nd, 2009 at 11:26 am
    I’m a huge Giants fan but THANK YOU THOMAS JONES !

    If any Jets fan is looking for a future captain Thomas Jones just entered his feet into team wide respect. The only Jet willing to step out into the media and call it like it is w/ Farve.

    ————————————————————

    Yeah, I’m sure that his team mates will appreciate knowing trhta he’ll point fingers at anyone except himself. His 23 yards in 10 carries were monsterous. Farve with a torn bicep muscle is still better than anything the Jets had as a back-up.

  46. Bubba January 2nd, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Schmidt394,

    The Yankees were one of the last teams to sign a negro, maybe the last. Elston Howard was the guy and of course he became one of the great players and quality people on the team.

  47. truantbuick January 2nd, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Robinson got booed when he stepped out of the box. Really, not much can be stated about racism considering Yankee fans have been doing that evidently for quite a long time.

  48. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 11:35 am

    “Brandon: Totally.

    I mean, 8-3 and you don’t make the playoffs?”

    Rebecca if I were you I’d purchase a Thomas Jones jersey ASAP.

    GB I understand that but now even Teddy Atlas came out and backed everything Thomas Jones said, and TJ has even put his name to each quote, here’s the thing about TJ even his whole team voted him the MVP of the team he can step out and talk if he wants to, he and Leon were under used this yr.

  49. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 11:37 am

    P.S. what did the torn bi-cep had to do w/ overthrowing his recievers and aiming for the other teams defensive backs ?

  50. Bubba January 2nd, 2009 at 11:38 am

    I wonder if the MLB channel would be open to suggestions for full games to show. I’d vote for game 3 of the ’64 series. Check it out.

  51. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 11:39 am

    Brandon: Jerseys are a little over my budget =P

  52. jennifer January 2nd, 2009 at 11:40 am

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3801716

  53. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 11:47 am

    Andrew Marchant to Max Kellerman

    “Wouldn’t rule out Ben Sheets for the Yankees. Girardi loves him, his price tag is dropping, everyone is scared of his medicals so the price might be a bargain” Marchant went as far as saying Girardi thinks of Sheets as a Josh Beckett.

  54. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 11:48 am

    “I have to say, the idea of being able to watch vintage games is pretty cool, especially as a history student.”
    rebecca-

    if mlb network is smart ,they’ll put on a combination of new and old programming on that will connect the generations because connecting different generations is a big strength of baseball. as murphydog said , he watched and enjoyed it with his father . i called mine to tell him there was a new baseball channel on his direct tv.

    last night gb7, pat m, were and i ( the vintage crew) were mentioning nellie fox and jackie robinson bats and things like playing pepper. this is all the stuff we grew up with and it really is very different than how kids grow up with baseball today.

    some have commented that the players were more regular size back then . it’s true. for one thing they didn’t hit the gym the way that modern players do. i’m not sure that the past generations of players weren’t as baseball strong though. i’ve yet to see anyone hit a ball almost out of yankee stadium the way mantle did.

    on the other hand, all the technology that’s available today opens up other doors that take the game to other levels. the beauty of the game is that it can be enjoyed in many different ways but at it’s roots it’s still baseball whether it’s played in 1930, 1955 or 2009.

    mlb probably has a winner on it’s hands if it can get that across.

  55. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 11:51 am

    Randy: It’ll be a real winner if they can get it on basic cable.

    However, since everyone’s got to go digital next month I guess it doesn’t matter anyway.

    Now, if only they could bring medieval tournaments to life…

    …Oh, and I was reading something on the BBC website last night, that there was evidence of baseball being played, men and women, in 1750s England.

  56. ANSKY January 2nd, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Perfect game stats & notes:

    Larsen wasn’t the only ‘average’ pitcher to throw a perfect game … its not a feat limited to those with dominant reputations:

    AL:
    Cy Young was 511-316, 2.53
    Addie Joss was 160-97, 1.97
    Charlie Robertson was 49-80, 4.44
    Don Larsen was 81-91, 3.78
    Catfish Hunter 224-166, 3.26
    Len Barker was 74-46, 4.34
    Mike Witt was 117-116, 3.83
    Kenny Rogers is/was 219-156, 4.27
    David Wells was 239-157, 4.13
    David Cone was 194-126, 3.46

    NL:
    Lee Richmond was 75-100, 3.06
    John Ward was 162-102, 2.10
    Jim Bunning was 224-184, 3.27
    Sandy Koufax was 165-87, 2.76
    Tom Browning was 123-90, 3.94
    Dennis Martinez was 245-193,
    Randy Johnson is 295-160, 3.26

    Ernie Shore (perfect in 1917 for Boston but it was in relief of Babe Ruth who was ejected after 1 batter, who was then caught stealing) was 65-43, 2.47
    Harvey Haddix (perfect for 12 for Pittsburgh but lost in 13) was 136-113, 3.63
    Pedro Martinez (perfect once into the 8th for Montreal before beaning someone – no surprise. Perfect thru 9 another time for Montreal but gave up a hit in the 10th) is/was 214-99, 2.91
    Mike Mussina (perfect for 8 2/3 for NY against Boston) was 270-153, 3.68

    There may have been other close calls but I didn’t look too too deep into the archives.

    So of the 17 guys who threw perfect games, 5 of them (Larsen, Barker, Witt, Richmond, Robertson) were average pitchers at best for their careers even though they were perfect for one day. Include the close calls and Shore & Haddix were lucky if anyone considered them ‘average’ over their careers too. Most of the rest were pretty good pitchers (a loose term) but only a handful were ‘greats’ or even dominant over the span of several years.

    Of all the perfect or near-perfect pitchers, 3 were Yanks when they threw perfect games and 9 were Yanks at one point in their careers. Shore, Larsen, Hunter, Witt, Rogers, Wells, Cone, Johnson, Mussina.

    Of all the perfect or near-perfect pitchers, Dennis Marinez played for Montreal but Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson’s careers went through Montreal at one point too. They had a pitching powerhouse up there?

    The Yanks have had 3 perfect games in their history but came close to # 4 with Moose.

    The Expos came close to having 3 perfect games in their history, all 3 in the same decade, with Pedro’s 2 near misses and Dennis Martinez perfect game.

    Paul O’Neill, as far as I can tell, is the only player to play in 3 perfect games and he was on the winning side of all 3. He played RF when Browning threw his perfect game, then again when Cone & Wells did it.

  57. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Bubba
    January 2nd, 2009 at 11:34 am
    Schmidt394,

    The Yankees were one of the last teams to sign a negro, maybe the last. Elston Howard was the guy and of course he became one of the great players and quality people on the team.

    ————————————————————

    All of which proves that you don’t know what you’re talking about. NYY was signing players as early as 1949, with Vic Powers and Artie Wilson but were traded. Howard came up in 1955 and the last three teams were in 1957 (Philadelphia Phils), 1958 (Detroit) and 1959 (Boston). Of course Boston also traded of Earl wilson, who when on to become a 20 game winner and one of the best hitting pitchers in history.

    You’re welcome for the history lesson.

  58. Schmidt394 January 2nd, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    bubba

    “fist yankee black man” sounds somewhat bizarre and insensitive, but nice job following that up with “negro”.

  59. John from Eastham January 2nd, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    True Don Larsen story.In Jan.1997,my wife,10 year old daughter,and myself, attended the Yankee Fan Fest at Columbus Circle.Many of the current Yanks were on hand for autographs along with a few old timers,Larsen included.There were long lines of course for Jeters autograph,O’Neils Torre Raines and others.One of the longest lines was for Don Larsen.Now.as most of you know,these autograph sessions are somewhat akin to a Star Wars convention,with fans bedecked in Yankee gear,and,of course,tons of memorabilia to be signed.My little girl,was standing off to the side of Larsens table,Yankee hat swallowing her bangs and forehead,when Larsen,visibly uncomfortable with all the hoopla and pinstriped ‘trekkies’, spotted her,pointed at her,and beckoned her to come to the front of the line.He engaged in a bit of small talk and signed the baseball she had been carrying around all afternoon.I did detect a difference in his demeanor during this encounter,a happier one.For a man reputed to be one hell of a grouch,before,during and after his career,this display of genuine kindness to a young child will be my daughters,as well as mine,lasting memory of Mr.Larsen,even more so than his perfect game.
    P.S. I also got to meet Micheal Kay,my world has never been the same.LOL

  60. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    randy l
    January 2nd, 2009 at 11:48 am

    last night gb7, pat m, were and i ( the vintage crew) were mentioning nellie fox and jackie robinson bats and things like ***playing pepper*** . this is all the stuff we grew up with and it really is very different than how kids grow up with baseball today.

    ————————————————————

    Pepper only makes you sneeze and it kills the grass.

  61. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees)
    January 2nd, 2009 at 11:37 am
    P.S. what did the torn bi-cep had to do w/ overthrowing his recievers and aiming for the other teams defensive backs ?

    ————————————————————

    Come on, Brandon. You’re not denying that a torn bicep wouldn’t have anything to do with controlling a thrown baseball or football, are you?

  62. jay pee January 2nd, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    Pumpsie Green was the Sox first Afro American,as well as the Bo Sox first,they were Baseballs final team to sign a black man.

  63. CanIGetAMooseCall January 2nd, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    You don’t have to go back to 1956 to see normal-size players. Just go back to early to mid 1980s.

  64. Brian (Red Sox Fan) January 2nd, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    Randy 1 – as another “vintage” fan, I also recalled the old Nellie Fox “bottle bat” (and how he choked up on it). Our childhood sandlot baseball group had one, but it was too heavy for our pre-pubescent biceps.

    And I’m sure that you noticed that none of those old-fashioned bats broke during the game …. what a difference.

    P.S. A previous poster accurately noted the HUGE difference that today’s commercial breaks take in the overall time of the game.

  65. Brian (Red Sox Fan) January 2nd, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    oops: “take” = “make”

  66. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    It’s funny, the differences in the game fifty years ago and today.

    Most of the time, I consider something that happened fifty years ago to be current events…

  67. Yankee U January 2nd, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    That explains why I don’t remember seeing Reese and Dean, I didn’t watch a lot of Saturday afternoon baseball back then.

  68. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    Brian (Red Sox Fan)
    January 2nd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
    Randy 1 – as another “vintage” fan, I also recalled the old Nellie Fox “bottle bat” (and how he choked up on it). Our childhood sandlot baseball group had one, but it was too heavy for our pre-pubescent biceps.

    And I’m sure that you noticed that none of those old-fashioned bats broke during the game …. what a difference.

    P.S. A previous poster accurately noted the HUGE difference that today’s commercial breaks take in the overall time of the game.

    ————————————————————

    As late as the 1970s, Dick Allen was still swinging a 42 ounce bat. Richardson used a 36 ouncer. I think that it was Banks and Aaron that brought in the thin handled bats and then sanded more off of the handle, to buggy-whip the bat.

  69. Brian (Red Sox Fan) January 2nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    GB7 — it’s not just that the bats became thin-handled; the weight of the bats dropped considerably. As you stated, the overall effect was to buggy-whip the bat.

    My recollection is that Ted Williams used a 32/33 oz. bat, but that might be the length. Regardless, I believe that he used a bat that was quite light for the era.

  70. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    “Come on, Brandon. You’re not denying that a torn bicep wouldn’t have anything to do with controlling a thrown baseball or football, are you?”

    Didn’t his MRI show that wasn’t the case ?

  71. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    If any of you ever get to the Hall of Fame museum, make sure you check out Babe Ruth’s bat. That thing is remarkably tiny when you consider everything that the Babe did with it.

  72. beedogs January 2nd, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    my grandfather was at that game. i’ve got the signed ticket stub somewhere… we met don at a k of c baseball card show years later where he signed it for us.

  73. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Brian (Red Sox Fan)
    January 2nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
    GB7—it’s not just that the bats became thin-handled; the weight of the bats dropped considerably. As you stated, the overall effect was to buggy-whip the bat.

    My recollection is that Ted Williams used a 32/33 oz. bat, but that might be the length. Regardless, I believe that he used a bat that was quite light for the era.

    ————————————————————

    Not sure about Williams bats. But, then, in his hands, everything looked like a twig. If pictures of Williams and DiMaggio, there was a difference in the barrell size, but, not so much the length. DiMaggio’s bat looked like a club. He was more timing and brute strength. Williams was about timing and bat speed. Hard to argue with either guy. They both had some success. Another thin handled bat user was Stan Musial. Man, talk about three amazing hitters…

  74. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    “…Oh, and I was reading something on the BBC website last night, that there was evidence of baseball being played, men and women, in 1750s England.”

    nick in sf would say that’s where livan hernandez got his start.

  75. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    He would.

  76. Pumpsie Green January 2nd, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    Boston signed me to prove it wasn’t a racist city.

  77. Crosetti January 2nd, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Fans who live outside USA have been left-off the Baseball Network. Please Pete, tell them to make available MLB Network via internet to fans in another countries, like myself. I live in Mexico and would not hesitate to pay whatever for a subscription. Thanks very much Pete.

  78. bigjf January 2nd, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    I loved every minute of that broadcast last night. I’m very excited for what the MLB Network is capable of offering. The split screen at the end, showing the celebration on one side and the smiles and laughter on Yogi’s and Don’s faces as they watched the screen was just classic. I like that they got Bob Costas to host that. And how about that pen promo? Can anyone tell me how that pen could possibly cost more than the razor package? Anyway, great start for the network, and I can’t wait to see what else they come up with. Hopefully we see some more of those really old games.

  79. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees)
    January 2nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm
    “Come on, Brandon. You’re not denying that a torn bicep wouldn’t have anything to do with controlling a thrown baseball or football, are you?”

    Didn’t his MRI show that wasn’t the case ?

    ————————————————————

    No, it showed just the opposite. Biceps tear. He also had calcification deposits, much like Rivera had.

    http://www.nj.com/jets/index.s....._need.html

  80. Tom January 2nd, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    “Oh, and I was reading something on the BBC website last night, that there was evidence of baseball being played, men and women, in 1750s England.”

    Jane Austin’s “Northanger Abbey” makes a passing reference to base-ball:

    “It was not very wonderful that Catherine, who had nothing heroic about her, should prefer cricket, base-ball, riding on horseback, and running about the country at the age of fourteen, to books.”

    it was written in 1798.

  81. RustyJohn January 2nd, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    One thing that is always refreshing about baseball is how little the game itself has changed over the past 50 years- yes, there are some obvious changes- the players weren’t ‘roided up, would mostly be considered upper middle class based upon their income, and the game flew by. It seemed like every half inning lasted at most five minutes. But the game itself is the same.

    I mostly enjoyed the commercials- 79 cents for shaving cream- even by the incredibly low inflation figures the government issues that would be equal to about $6.50 today for a “three month supply” of shaving cream. The dollar for the razor would cost approximately 8 bucks today based upon government numbers. In actuality the rate of inflation is much higher than what is reported and is closer to double the amounts ($13 for shaving cream and $16 for the razor, travel case and book).

    The other thing that was enjoyable was seeing the fans dressed up for a ball game- when they talk about the bleacher seats open and how bad it would be if it was hot out because it would be full of white shirts (presumably the 1950′s summer wear in the northeast which consisted of slacks, a white undershirt that was tucked in and dress shoes with black socks.) Then when they panned out to the stands you see the fans wearing sport coats.

    Oh a better time- when guys went to barbers, wore fedoras, and didn’t dress like bums.

  82. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    brian (red sox fan)-
    i’ve read that about williams using a really light bat. his swing is more of a modern one when you think about it. as a kid i remember going back and forth between a harvey kuehn smaller handled bat( when i wanted to hit for power) and the jackie robnson and nellie fox bats when i wanted to just hit the ball. the going back and forth taught a lot because you could not use the same swing with the different bats.

    the nellie fox one would get you out of a slump. to get it moving you had to use every part of your body to get it going. the harvey keuhn bat could be swung more from the wrists and hands. it was definitely the bat used when we played home run derby( which by the way would be very good to show on the mlb network).

    i have a joe adcock game bat in my closet that carlton willey, an old time pitcher for the braves gave me. it is so huge i used it for an exercise bat for years. i can’t imagine hitting with it. it must be close to 37 inches and 40 ounces.

  83. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    GB your a Farve fan I take

  84. Bubba January 2nd, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    “Another thin handled bat user was Stan Musial. Man, talk about three amazing hitters…”

    You got that right–why doesn’t he get the recognition the other 2 do?

  85. RustyJohn January 2nd, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Last weekend I was watchng the Royals-Yanks pine-tar game and was similarly amazed about the size of the players- when you see that Reggie jackson was considered huge back then. My favority was seeing Sweet Lou at the plate with his belly hanging out. Man, Lou could hit.

    Of course, it also helps that players actually work out and don’t live on a diet of Marlboros and Miller. Josh Hamilton talking about how he’s “stepped up” his workouts now that we are hitting January v. the accounts of Pinella being berated by Steinbrenner for being too fat. A great story on the latter in Bill Madden’s “Damned Yankees” where Steinbrenner sends a trainer out to Lou’s house to work with him in the off-season which only results in the trainer working out while Lou sits down watching him, while drinking a glass of orange juice and reading the paper every day.

  86. Tom January 2nd, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    I have Stan Musial’s autograph. It’s on a Baseball with Willie Mays and Ernie Banks.

  87. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Here’s some information on the debut of MLBTV and some of the issues and what the Network is doing to correct it. Oddly, there are four or 5 cable networks that own 33% of the Network and are still not on board in all areas. The dish Network is not carrying the program.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb

  88. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    Tom
    January 2nd, 2009 at 1:02 pm
    I have Stan Musial’s autograph. It’s on a Baseball with Willie Mays and Ernie Banks.

    ————————————————————

    Damned. Lucky you. That’s a keepsake…Three HOFers. If it comes up missing….it wasn’t me….(eyes looking off into space and fingers crossed).

  89. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    John Madden aka The Body Guard will be on w/ King of Diet Coke.

  90. Drive 4-5 January 2nd, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    RustyJohn,

    I wonder what year it was the last patron wore a suit to a baseball game. Styles and manners certainly have changed. Some for the better and some for the worst. ARod’s ex should have been thrown out of the ballpark the day she wore that vulgar shirt.

    As quaint as some of the men looked in their suits, a lot of them begrudged Jackie Robinson’s place in the game. Along with the suits a lot of bad baggage was shed over the years.

  91. S.A.-Brian "The Ninja" Cashman: Showing free agents lots of love January 2nd, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    The Jets were looking for Shanahan. It’s not known if they found him..

  92. Baseball Guy January 2nd, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    It was a fun game to watch last night.

    The biggest thrill was seeing Mickey Mantle. I’m 40 years old – I never saw the Mick. To see his entire at bats, rather than just highlight clips, was a treat.

    One thing I’m hoping for with IO and FIOS and all the television technology, etc… is the ability to turn OFF all the garbage on the screen.

    I don’t need to see where the baserunners are, I don’t need to know the count… yes, that’s nice if you tune in late, but the constant graphics at the top and the scrolling scores on the bottom take away from the game, I believe.

    I’d love to be able to just take that information off my screen.

  93. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees)
    January 2nd, 2009 at 12:58 pm
    GB your a Farve fan I take

    ————————————————————

    Not necessarily. I pretty much stopped watching most football when Walter Payton retired. That took a lot of enjoyment out of the game. Imagine….a superstar player that didn’t showboat and mouth off. He actually played like he had done it all before.

    I just don’t understand “fans” that invent reasons to not appreciate good players….much like I have little use for those that invent reasons to not appreciate the talents of Alex Rodriguez. If fans and the media didn’t obsess about everything he does from the time he woke up until he goes to bed, they’d be a lot more happy. It’s people like that and the media that can turn obsess to abscess in a hurry.

  94. Y26 January 2nd, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    Shannahan is in Mexico?

  95. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    GB because w/ Farve he is made out to be the King of all football an dthen you see his failmarys that keeps games close for the other team. I’ve always thought of Farve as an overrated QB he’s good but not in NFL history good.

  96. Tom January 2nd, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    GB, My father took me and my family to some corporate function of his back in the 80s. It was in disney world. I guess Stan, Mays, and Banks were paid to be there to sign autographs for the “kids”.

    My father was the only person from his office who bought his family with him. He bought me to see the three men and we (he really, I was 8 and wanted to go on the tea cups) spent about 45 minutes alone talking baseball.

    My father then told his cohorts they were there, but you needed to bring one of your kids with you. Two of my dad’s friends asked to rent my brother so they could have a simmilar time with them.

  97. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    Baseball Guy
    January 2nd, 2009 at 1:11 pm
    It was a fun game to watch last night.

    The biggest thrill was seeing Mickey Mantle. I’m 40 years old – I never saw the Mick. To see his entire at bats, rather than just highlight clips, was a treat.

    One thing I’m hoping for with IO and FIOS and all the television technology, etc… is the ability to turn OFF all the garbage on the screen.

    I don’t need to see where the baserunners are, I don’t need to know the count… yes, that’s nice if you tune in late, but the constant graphics at the top and the scrolling scores on the bottom take away from the game, I believe.

    I’d love to be able to just take that information off my screen.

    ————————————————————

    MLB.com offers quite a selection of games, including games of the ’52 and ’53 WS, no hitters, some in black and white, some in color…Gibson, Spahn, Koufax. Great stuff to get through the winters.

  98. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    Tom
    January 2nd, 2009 at 1:18 pm
    GB, My father took me and my family to some corporate function of his back in the 80s. It was in disney world. I guess Stan, Mays, and Banks were paid to be there to sign autographs for the “kids”.

    My father was the only person from his office who bought his family with him. He bought me to see the three men and we (he really, I was 8 and wanted to go on the tea cups) spent about 45 minutes alone talking baseball.

    My father then told his cohorts they were there, but you needed to bring one of your kids with you. Two of my dad’s friends asked to rent my brother so they could have a simmilar time with them.

    ————————————————————

    LMAO. Adults have no shame when it comes to meeting their boyhood idols.

  99. GrouchoNYY January 2nd, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    It was interesting to me to see that Campanella and Newcombe were used as spokesmen for Gillette in a national telecast. This was 1956 and those ads must have been hard for some, especially in the south to take. Was it the New York centric Ad agency for Gillette, or was someone at Gillette color blind. Pretty amazing for the era.

  100. YanksfanCT January 2nd, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    Pete I couldn’t agree more about Larsen’s perfect game. It was great seeing his reaction at the end. He was smiling like a little kid. The other thing, I was shocked at the size of some of the players, Jackie Robinson was huge. I always thought he was skinny. Anyways, it was fun to watch, that network looks like it’ll be sick..

  101. Loading it up ! January 2nd, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Latest rumor is that Cashman is looking to get Ichiro for CF and get Manny as well. This 2009 team is going to be LIGHTS OUT !

  102. Frontier January 2nd, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    I agree with Max Kellerman

    Find a way to turn Kennedy, Veras, Igawa, Melky, and Nady into Mike Cameron and Houston Street.

  103. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    “He had a career ERA of 3.78. To put it in perspective of today-where pitchers like Wang and Burnett are considered front end of the rotation starters with career ERAs of 3.79 and 3.81 respectively.”

    That doesn’t mean a thing. The league ERA in the time he pitched was 3.73. So he was actually worse than league average. His career ERA+ is 99, 100 is league average. The league ERA for the time Wang pitched is 4.44 giving Wang an ERA+ of 117. They aren’t even comparable pitchers. When looking at the ERA of older pitchers you have to look at ERA+ to compare them to modern pitchers. Sandy Koufax has an ERA+ of 131, Pedro Martinez has an ERA+ of 154. I don’t think people realize just how amazing Pedro was in his prime. No one in history was as dominant as he was.

  104. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    “Latest rumor is that Cashman is looking to get Ichiro for CF and get Manny as well. This 2009 team is going to be LIGHTS OUT !”

    There is no such rumor, as a matter of fact it is a speculation by a FoxSport columinist on “IF” the Yankees get Manny how they should get Ichiro. Again Manny is right now getting possibly a 4 yr. deal from SF, Ichiro is not a cheap player and you also have to remember this guy had the whole Mariners locker room not just one guy the entire locker room wanted to beat him down…rumors are that he is a primadonna why put that on your roster in your locker room ?

  105. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Shanahan stuck around for 14 years in Denver cos for a bunch of those years he had some dude named Elway, John playing at QB.

  106. mattseattleusa January 2nd, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    Not sure if anyone posted, but the Larsen game is scheduled to re-air on Wed Jan 14th at 3pm ET.

  107. gianthinker January 2nd, 2009 at 1:37 pm

    I thought it was interesting Larsen knew he threw a no hitter but had no idea he had thrown a perfect game or what one even was! Also after 1956 Larsen went 51-51 for the rest of his career. Interesting stuff.

  108. gianthinker January 2nd, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    They also said the first televised baseball game they only used 2 cameras!

  109. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    YanksfanCT
    January 2nd, 2009 at 1:21 pm
    Pete I couldn’t agree more about Larsen’s perfect game. It was great seeing his reaction at the end. He was smiling like a little kid. The other thing, I was shocked at the size of some of the players, Jackie Robinson was huge. I always thought he was skinny. Anyways, it was fun to watch, that network looks like it’ll be sick..

    ————————————————————

    Those weren’t exactly form fitting uniforms…those old heavy flannel uniforms at three players could where. Mantle looked huge too, but, in ’56, he was only 5’11″ and 175 pounds. Robinsoin wasn’t all that big, really….about 6 feet and 200 pounds. He was a big time fullback at UCLA in the ’39-41 seasons.

  110. bubba January 2nd, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    “Jackie Robinson was huge. I always thought he was skinny.”

    He was a big time college football player at UCLA.

  111. ANSKY January 2nd, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    Timmy

    Yeah people have to take the era of a pitcher’s ERA into account. In the dead ball era pitching was different than the the Gehrig Ruth years. The 60′s when Koufax & Gibson pitched were different than the PED era. The peak of the PED era is when Pedro had an ERA in the low 2′s (sometimes better) 6 out of 7 years. The other year he was in the high 2′s. Far from a slouch when he was ‘off’. ERA’s in general have dropped significantly over the past decade too.

    Other things to take into account: Rules. Back when Bob Gibson was pitching, for example, the brush back pitch and the bean ball were a regular part of his repertoire. Not like Pedro used them … Pedro was limited to intimidating someone once in a game before he got a warning, fine or suspension. Gibson didn’t have to deal with mamby-pamby rules preventing him from going inside three times in a game on a guy. There was also the height of the mound too. Totally different circumstances so comparing Wang with someone from Larsen’s era or Koufax’s era or the PED era isn’t exact science. Further, Pedro was an exceptional pitcher in a big-time hitter’s era.

  112. ANSKY January 2nd, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    gianthinker

    Talk about Larsen’s record after his perfect game .. how about Coney? It seemed like he hit his career zenith on that day, but after that he wasn’t as good as he was before.

  113. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    M110 Louisville Slugger model….That was my favorite stick…Used in HS, College as well as Pro….Great weight, thin handle, it was like swinging a stickball bat……Yaz had a similar model, slighlty heavier it seemed…Maybe becaused I used it hittng from the leftside…..

  114. vtred January 2nd, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    Giants make Manny 3-year offer per Heyman

    http://www.fannation.com/si_blogs/hot_stove

  115. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    Model M110, Louisville Slugger…Used it in HS, College and at the Pro level…..Great weight, seemed as though you were swinging a astickball bat….Yaz had a similar stick, slightly heavier…Used that when I hit lefthanded, Yaz had the thinnest handle bat that I can recall……

  116. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    ANSKY
    January 2nd, 2009 at 1:51 pm
    gianthinker

    Talk about Larsen’s record after his perfect game .. how about Coney? It seemed like he hit his career zenith on that day, but after that he wasn’t as good as he was before.

    ————————————————————

    Pretty much over for Cone after that game….His record went from 10-4 and a 2.65 ERA to 12-9 and a 3.44 in the remaining 13 games.

  117. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    Would Russo approve or hate ?

  118. timo January 2nd, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    The same report from the local SF CBS station on the alleged 4 year offer to Manny also quotes a Giants’ team offical as saying it’s not happening. I guess one or the other has to be true.

    http://cbs5.com/sports/giants......96827.html

    Additional comments on Manny from an SF Chron reporter’s blog:

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....y_id=34113

    My own take: not a good fit. Manny likes to hit and would get frustrated with getting walked and then stranded by the rest of the weak Giants’ lineup.

  119. Ed - American League, prepared to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 2nd, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Proctor signs with the Marlins? at least he finally escaped from Torre. :lol:

  120. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    ” I don’t think people realize just how amazing Pedro was in his prime. No one in history was as dominant as he was.”

    you know what, i’m not going to give you that. the yankees had no trouble with pedro. what was the record, may .500 against them?

    the implication you’re making is that through sabermetric data ,you can prove that pedro was better than gibson, koufax, ford or spahn when maybe he was just better than the pitchers in his own generation.

    the assumption is that players are better and stronger today than they were in past days, but has anyone ever ht a ball further at yankee stadium than mantle did? why not if they are bigger and stronger?

    the fact that pedro was dominant in his own generation doesn’t mean he was better than the past great pitchers. maybe baseball sucked when pedro was in his prime. maybe baseball was better when gibson and koufax were pitching.

    no doubt pedro is in the conversation of great pitchers, but the best one ever. i don’t see it.

  121. Jack January 2nd, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    If the Giants can add Matsui too in addition to Manny, they could be a real force in that weak division. They already have great pitching, a good closer and pen.

    Manny alone doesn’t put them over the top but Matsui and Manny together could. We’d have to eat most of his salary but I would imagine that would be appealing to them even though Sabean said he doesn’t want guys who will be FAs after a year.

  122. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Matsui for Sanchez as soon as Manny deal falls through.

    “Proctor signs with the Marlins? at least he finally escaped from Torre. ”

    Joe will attempt to get him via trade. :lol:

  123. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    The giants signed randy johnson and now Manny?

    Wow, and I thought after Bonds left they were supposed to get better…

  124. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    I tried to poas this earlier….Willie used a M110 Louisville Slugger model….I used that modle in HS, College, and at the Pro level….Yaz had a similar stick only slightly heavier and a more wieght at the barrel…..Love that bat when hitting from the left side, great carry…..

  125. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    ” Totally different circumstances so comparing Wang with someone from Larsen’s era”

    i like wang a lot as a pitcher, but i’d like to see him pitch with a hang over the way larsen did often. the hangover factor is a major variable with old time baseball. it was a kind of reverse PED. think how good an athlete larsen was to accomplish what he did drinking that much. think what a great athlete mantle was at 5′ 11” and 180 to do what he did. he did it without working out in the gym and often staying out all night.

    i really think old time players were more fluent in the game. i do not think if by magic you could have a team from today’s era play a team from mantle’s era that the modern era would necessarily win.

  126. Joe from Long Island January 2nd, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    Happy New Year, all –

    I had company over last night, so I couldn’t watch the MLB Network and the Larsen perfect game, I guess I’ll try to catch it this afternoon while my wife is at work (lucky me, off today).

    Manny to the Giants? Well, that might be pretty good for Manny, as SF is a lot more laid back than Boston, if that’s what he wants. But for the Giants? Ole Randy Johnson and Manny in the same clubhouse? And to accomplish just what, pray tell? How do those signings relate to any longterm plan?

  127. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    The Giants are going after it, deal Matsui after this. Get Jonathan Sanchez !

  128. Ed - American League, prepared to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 2nd, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Manny will have fun hitting home runs in McCovey Field, look how small that field is.

  129. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    Matsui isn’t going to be traded to an NL team….Nady, maybe, but, not Matsui, and, I’d keep Swisher over Nady any day.

  130. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    Sandy Koufax….Enough said…..

  131. Nick in SF January 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    Brandon, you’ve had a full day to think about it: where would Matsui play if the Giants sign Manny?

    And yesterday, after someone said that Matsui isn’t being traded, you said “Wanna bet?” I want to bet.

  132. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    Sandy Koufax …The best ever….

  133. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Dammit Nick stop killing my dream. This can happen, it’s Brian frickin’ Sabean this CAN HAPPEN ! :x

  134. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    Randy, bottom line during his prime Pedro dominated the game more than any pitcher from any ERA. I don’t see how you can dispute that. He has the 5th lowest WHIP all time. There are only 3 starting pitchers ahead of him, and they all pitched during the dead ball ERA. He’s 3rd in K/9 all time. He’s 7th in W/l percentage. His strike out to walk ratio is 3rd all time. His adjusted ERA+ is the highest for any starting pitcher in history. Once again we’re not talking his era we’re talking all time stats in the entire history of baseball. He did all that pitching in an offense dominant ERA. With smaller parks, and a lower mound than either Koufax, Gibson, Ford or any of those guys.

  135. Nick in SF January 2nd, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    I also said yesterday that “Sabean is crazy” is not an acceptable answer. ;)

  136. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    nick in sf-

    if a team from 2009 played a team from 1955, which one would livan pitch on?

    all kidding aside, i think the reason i like livan as a pitcher is becau just throwing.

  137. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    nick in sf-

    if a team from 2009 played a team from 1955, which one would livan pitch on?

    all kidding aside, i think the reason i like livan as a pitcher is because he’s a throw back to the old days when pitchers like sal maglie won by pitching and not just throwing.

  138. Nick in SF January 2nd, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    No matter how they wrote the rules, Livan would be eligible to pitch for either team due to the grandfather clause.

  139. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Nick in SF
    January 2nd, 2009 at 2:40 pm
    No matter how they wrote the rules, Livan would be eligible to pitch for either team due to the grandfather clause.

    ————————————————————

    They’d need the Great-Grandfather Clause.

  140. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    “the fact that pedro was dominant in his own generation doesn’t mean he was better than the past great pitchers. maybe baseball sucked when pedro was in his prime. maybe baseball was better when gibson and koufax were pitching.”

    Interesting how this is basically the same way that people used to knock Koufax and Gibson when people first started suggesting that they were better than Walter Johnson or Bob Feller or even Cy Young or Christy Mathewson.

    Sure Koufax is very good for his time but he never had to face the greats that Johnson or Feller did… Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Hornsby – who did Koufax and Gibson ever pitch to that were as good as those guys were?

    Funny how that happens in baseball. The way the arguments don’t seem to change much over time.

  141. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    timmy lupus-

    how do you know that pedro’s era was as good as koufax’s or gibson’s era?

    for example, a pitcher could play thirty years from now when kids have been playing so many other sports or so very few at all that baseball doesn’t get great athletes in the major leagues. you could compare that pitcher with his leagues pitchers and conclude he dominated this very weak era.

    how does that make him as good as pedro back in the year 2000?

  142. saucY January 2nd, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    i was hoping to see a cigarette commercial.

    but it was cool seeing the old stadium and everything. i’ve only really saw pictures and a few videos. and i now have an appreciation for modern video cameras. everything beyond the infield looked distorted/fish-eye…

  143. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Randy I’m not even talking about ERAs with Pedro. Look where his numbers rank on the all time list. If you want to talk about watered down talent. How about the fact that although there was integration during the Koufax, and Gibson ERAs there wasn’t nearly as much as there is today. How would those pitchers have faired against all the international talent that’s in the game today. How about the fact that guys like Cy Young, and Walter Johnson didn’t face anyone who wasn’t white? You look at where Pedro ranks on the career all time list in so many categories, and there isn’t another pitcher that comes close to that.

  144. Khoa January 2nd, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    vintage commercials were AWESOME.

  145. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    cb-

    you’re obviously very strong on statistical analysis. how does the statistical analysis community measure one era against each other. the problem i see is that baseball is not like track or swimming where you can look at performance time, say the 100 meters, and the numbers don’t lie. phelps is faster than johnny weissmuller.

    baseball skill isn’t just measured by pitching velocity, bat swing speed, or time to first base.
    it’s measured by a myriad of skills that i would think would make it hard to compare one era to another. pitchers in 1955 could throw 250-300 innings players like.mantle could still hit a ball feet away from going out at yankee stadium, most players could bunt, most could hit and run.

    the players came out of a national pool that was huge because every town in america had a baseball team and almost every kid played all the time. on the other hand, once a player is identified they get amazing training now.

    i don’t think there is an easy answer to which era was better and how stats from one era to another compare.

  146. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    saucY
    January 2nd, 2009 at 2:55 pm
    i was hoping to see a cigarette commercial.

    ————————————————————

    Here you go Saucy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZvHiiWFbBU

  147. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    timmy lupus-
    you have to drop the sabermetric dogma for a few moments to think for yourself. what if that 1955 era had players who could play the game better. what if the whole league was better than in 2000?

    you’re basing your assumption about pedro that the quality of major league baseball is the same at all times. how could it be the same at all times?

    that would be highly unlikely.

  148. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    I’d rather fight than switch.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

  149. eckaechez January 2nd, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    I totally agree with this guy. Being a Yankee fan ain’t easy:

    http://zellspinstripeblog.com/.....t-its-not/

  150. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    “how do you know that pedro’s era was as good as koufax’s or gibson’s era?”

    How do you know that Koufax’s era or record were as good as Walter Johnson’s?

    Look at it any way you want – total production over a career or peak performance and I’ve never heard a really coherent argument for why Koufax is better than Walter Johnson, other than a relative one, that said Koufax was better in his era than Johnson was in his and therefore Koufax is the greatest pitcher ever.

    Yet this is said all of the time. Koufax was the best pitcher ever because of that brilliant 5 year run of his.

    Take the best year of Koufax’s career and tell me how it was better than Walter Johnson in 1913. Take the two best years of Koufax’s career and explain how they were better than Johnson from 1913-1914. Take that brilliant run of Koufax’s from ’62-66 and explain how it was even remotely as good as Johnson from 1910-1915. It’s just not possible from the standpoint of absolute production and dominance – unless you make a relative argument regarding the era’s they pitched in.

    The irony is that the only argument that Koufax would have to be the greatest pitcher of all time is a relative one. It’s that Johnson was pitching partly during the dead ball era and never faced the best competition possible because baseball was segregated.

    But those are exactly the same kind of arguments people make in favor of Pedro. Just as Johnson pitched during the deadball era, Koufax pitched during a time in which players didn’t lift weights or work out the way they do know. Just as Johnson didn’t face the best competition possible neither did Koufax as he pitched in the era before Latin American players joined the game as a force and before the talent pool was international.

    The arguments don’t change – just the faces. Arguing that Koufax is better than Johnson is no different than arguing Pedro is as good as Koufax. No different at all.

  151. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Randy,

    So because the quality of the game can differ, all time stats, and records should be meaningless? I guess all those records, and accomplishments Babe Ruth, and Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Mantle etc have really don’t mean much because the quality of the game was different for each player. If that’s the case why bother even keeping records at all?

  152. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    “how does the statistical analysis community measure one era against each other. the problem i see is that baseball is not like track or swimming where you can look at performance time, say the 100 meters, and the numbers don’t lie. phelps is faster than johnny weissmuller.”

    I’m sure you watched the summer olympics and the swimming. Did you happen to notice who was always swimming at the extreme outside lane at the top of the pool?

    No one. They left the lane empty. First time in olympic history that was done. Why? The Chinese decided that they wanted to decrease turbulence in the pool so they left the lane against the wall open.

    This is one of the reasons why so many world records were set in Beijing in swimming.

    Mark Spitz never had that advantage in terms of absolute time. Neither did Weissmuller.

    Part of what makes sports interesting is that they are dynamic – they are constantly changing. Athletes compete against themselves but also against history.

    Even for a relatively straightforward sport like swimming the context that the athletes perform in changes dramatically. Spitz never had those fancy whole body swim suits to use. The underwater dolphin kick hadn’t been developed, etc.

    Baseball is the most radical of these context changing sports because there is no standard field the game is played on.

    Put Dustin Pedroia in any other ball park and he’s unlikely to come anywhere close to winning MVP. But he did play in feway and take advantage of it. Same thing for Jim Rice.

    So there’s really only two basic ways to compare guys across history – 1) in an absolute sense where you look at their numbers and ignore context. In this sense there’s simply no question that Usain Bolt is a far greater sprinter than Jesse Owens because he ran the same distance in much, much less time. OR 2) In a context dependent, relative fashion where each athlete is first judged against his peers and then then secondarily is judged across time.

    There’s no good way to compare ball players across era’s as the game changes so dramatically – especially because the size of the playing field is non-standardized and home runs mean so much.

    Is Jim Thome really a better home run hitter than Joe Dimaggio? In an absolute sense yes he would have to be. But compared against his peers no he’s not. Which is the right way to judge?

    In general, people in statistics almost uniformly agree that the best way to judge players across time is to first judge them against players of their era and to then take that relative comparison and judge them against players from prior times.

    I strongly agree with that approach. Otherwise the numbers are completely stripped of context and don’t mean much.

  153. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    cb-

    the problem, as i see it, is that it’s very difficult to quantify what makes a great player or a great team. what is the gold standard everyone else is compared to?

    during the years that baseball was watered down by ww2, you could not say that because a pitcher dominated the league more than any other pitcher ever dominated a league before that he was the greatest pitcher ever. that would be alogical fallacy though.

    we know that the war affected years were low quality baseball. but how do we measure other times? if measuring fielding is hard, measuring the quality of a time is even more difficult.

    i’m as interested in how you measure the quality of a time in baseball as i am in proving one time is better than another time.

    one thing i know is that the average kid today could not play with the average kid in 1955. now maybe the best kids can beat the best kids back then, but even that i’m not so sure of.

    intuitively, i don’t see pedro as being better than gibson, koufax, spahn, etc. pedro may have pitched in some ways in more difficult times, but pedro also didn’t hit in a time when no helmets were worn by pitchers who had to hit. the advantage he got by pitching in the time of dh’s when he didn’t have to worry about retaliation helped him out a lot. billy martin would have chased pedro to the monuments if pedro headhunted the way he did in his prime.

  154. Mike January 2nd, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    The MLB Network will have lots of growing pains. BUT, the material available has to be huge. By the time the season begins they’ll have much better footing. They may need a superstar announcer but the entertainment value is huge. Being able to see this game that even Don Larsen had never seen was great!! Also hearing Mel Allen and Vin Scully do this game shows how great they were (are in Scully’s case)!! Listening closely it was even possible to hear Bob Sheppard’s voice as he announced the players as they came to bat. This shows young people how incredible it was when those of us who grew up in the 50′s went to the stadium for the first time and realized it’s size and the very green grass on the field. I look forward to more similar productions. Great work by MLB!

  155. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    “If that’s the case why bother even keeping records at all?”

    timmy lupos-

    i like the idea of keeping records and comparing different times and eras. i’m just saying that comparing dominance in one era doesn’t prove anything unless the eras are equal.

    if you being interested in stats could come up with an accurate formula to compare different eras in baseball you’d be famous in the stat community. i’d welcome seeing it. i’m just saying that because pedro was dominant in his era that it doesn’t necessarily follow that he was the greatest pitcher ever. it’s possible the time he played in wasn’t as great as you think it is.

  156. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    There is a great program with viseos on now with the Great Satchel Page.

  157. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    Is there a registration sign-up yet

  158. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    ***videos***

  159. Al from BK January 2nd, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    The Yanks should just sign Manny, we already have a 200 million dollar payroll why not go full throttle?

  160. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    I wish the Giants or Dodgers would hurry up and sign Ramirez so the foolishness would finally stop

  161. Angel - A tale told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing January 2nd, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    I’m really not getting this hankering to trade Matsui, lol.

    Is the Yankee bench so deep and talented that Girardi having multiple options and having shuffle playing time occasionally and randomly rest players such a big issue?

    I would have thought they could only benefit from such depth.

  162. Angel - A tale told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing January 2nd, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Is there a registration sign-up yet
    ———————————-

    I keep hoping.

  163. Angel - A tale told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing January 2nd, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    Me too, GB.

  164. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    “the problem, as i see it, is that it’s very difficult to quantify what makes a great player or a great team. what is the gold standard everyone else is compared to?”

    There’s no absolute or ideal way of answering this question. The minute they decided not to standardize the baseball playing field these controversies were inevitable.

    That said, history is one of the great parts of the game. And ironically the lack of standardization is a major driver for interest in the game. It’s a great source of conversation and controversy.

    But ultimately, any time people make any kind of argument that says something like, “Player X was one of the greatest players in history….” or “Players X was better than player Y…” you are assuming some kind of standard to judge players by.

    We are always doing this. We are always assuming some kind of normative standard for performance.

    The only thing statistics tries to do is to make those assumptions more explicit and more rigorous.

    So this entire argument to me has very little to do with statistics. In fact that is completely secondary.

    You mentioned Pedro not having to hit. Good point.

    I’ll ask you this – how much less petrifying would Bob Gibson have been had hitters been required to where batting helmets when facing him? Much, much less. How much more intimidating would Pedro have been if guys were getting into the box against him without a helmet on.

    Did Gibson ever face anyone whering the kind of protective armor Barry Bonds used to? Not even close. And if Gibson had he would have still been intimidating, but not nearly as much so.

    So sure once pedro went to the sox he didn’t have to hit. But there’s still hundreds of other things to consider like batting helmets.

    Ultimately, you have to decide how you want to judge players – against their relevant competition at that time or independent of that and just look at them in an absolute fashion across time.

    To me you have to put the player in the context of his time and peers first. Only then can you compare him across time. Statistics only come in after the fact as a way to formalize that decision. Believe me they are very secondary in all of this.

    But somehow people think these comparisons are a function of statistics – as if it’s some hocus pocus of numbers. It’s not. It’s the decision on whether you compare players to their peers first or you just compare them each other across time.

    Who is the greatest first baseman of all time? For the first time in decades this is a real question. Pujols or Gehrig? How do you decide to compare them?

    One other note on this. I do find that people who became interested in the game during it’s golden age from the 1940-1960′s are particularly enamored with the idea that the players they first came to love the game through were the greatest ever. I think this has something to do with the advent of radio and TV and its impact on making baseball a truly national game for the first time.

    But I’ll get back to my first point – I still see no reason why Koufax is better than Walter Johnson. Yet I’ve heard people say Koufax is the greatest pitcher of all time over and over.

    If you want to say the game isn’t as “good” as it used to be then it’s tough to know at what era the disintegration started.

    Like I said – many people who watched Johnson pitch against Ruth thought it was a joke that anyone would say that Koufax was as good to Johnson. And unless you make a relative argument there’s no way to say that Koufax is even remotely as good as Johnson just based on their absolute numbers.

  165. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    It’s supposed to be soon. I’m hoping that they figure out who owns the SNs and let’s them keep them.

  166. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    “There’s no good way to compare ball players across era’s as the game changes so dramatically – especially because the size of the playing field is non-standardized and home runs mean so much.”

    “In general, people in statistics almost uniformly agree that the best way to judge players across time is to first judge them against players of their era and to then take that relative comparison and judge them against players from prior times.
    I strongly agree with that approach. Otherwise the numbers are completely stripped of context and don’t mean much.”

    cb-

    thanks as usual for taking the argument to a higher level. what you are saying is that there is no good way to measure 1955 versus 2009, but that you can measure dominance in 1955 or 2009. i get that.

    i just don’t think you can take that next step and say dominance in an era means that dominant player is better than the dominant player of a different time. i really think it’s a logical fallacy.

  167. SJ44 January 2nd, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    One also has to remember that Gibson and Koufax, and any pitchers from prior to 1969, had the advantage of throwing from a higher mound.

    After Gibson’s 1.12 ERA season, the mound was lowered. That began a 40 year stretch in which every change in the game favored the offense. Especially, the strikezone. Its microscopic now compared the 30-50 years ago.

  168. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    Earlier there was posting regarding bats….Willie Mayes used a M110 Louisville Slugger Model….I used that same bat in HS, Coolege and then at the Pro level…..Great top top weight, thin handle…Yaz used even a thinner handle but had much more end weight…..Loved hitting Lefthanded with the Yaz bat, great carry

  169. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    “i’m just saying that comparing dominance in one era doesn’t prove anything unless the eras are equal. ”

    Eras are never equal. Not even close. That’s generally true of any human endeavor. History is never “equal.”

    So if the only way to discuss history in a meaningful way is to do so between eras that were equal in their dominance then there is no point in discussing history or any of the games past. We all might as well just be quiet and let history fall into silence then.

    In my personal opinion, if I had to pick the 9 greatest players of all time, Josh Gibson would be behind the plate.

    Now if all eras have to be “equal” in dominance than my selection of Gibson over Piazza, Bench or Berra is meaningless. In fact if that was the case neither Gibson or Satchel Page should be in the hall of fame.

    This was the same line of thinking that forced so many great players from the 30′s and 1940′s to have to wait to be inducted into the hall of fame – they just weren’t as good as that first hall of fame induction class and baseball as a whole just wasn’t as good as it was when Ruth and Cobb played. The game was simply in decline. Dominance wasn’t what it used to be.

    If the only way for the game’s history to be discussed in a valid way were the valid assumption of statics equivalence across time, the game would have shriveled up and died a long time ago.

  170. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    cb-

    i think you are saying that dominance in an era can be a useful tool in judging players across eras, but that there are a lot of variables involved.

    i think we’re in agreement.

    i still think if pedro was the greatest pitcher ever, he’d have figured a way to be better than a .500 pitcher against the yankees. if the yankees could so easily beat pedro, does that make them the greatest team ever?

  171. YankeeRay January 2nd, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    Al from BK
    January 2nd, 2009 at 3:48 pm
    The Yanks should just sign Manny, we already have a 200 million dollar payroll why not go full throttle?

    ——-

    Al, if I didn’t right my daily Manny blog then Ham Fighters day wouldn’t be complete.

    It is such a natural fit and an over the top signing but I don’t think it’s going to happen. The more teams that get involved thi higher the price goes and we get further away.
    The only way I can see it is if 1 or no teams are showing interest and we make a side deal with Boros until we move Nady and Matsui. I think Manny wantst o be a Yankee and he belongs in the AL.
    That to me along with signing Pettite would make us the overwhelming favorites to win it all. As it stands right now I think we will compete but we are not a lock.
    I feel better now.

  172. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    “After Gibson’s 1.12 ERA season, the mound was lowered. That began a 40 year stretch in which every change in the game favored the offense. Especially, the strikezone. Its microscopic now compared the 30-50 years ago.”

    Right, and the year Gibson did that the league ERA was 2.90. There’s a reason it was called the year of the pitcher. Pedro put up a 1.74 ERA when the league ERA was 5.07. That is just staggering.

    “In general, people in statistics almost uniformly agree that the best way to judge players across time is to first judge them against players of their era and to then take that relative comparison and judge them against players from prior times.
    I strongly agree with that approach. Otherwise the numbers are completely stripped of context and don’t mean much.”

    We can do that, and during Pedros prime years during his ERA there wasn’t anyone that was on his level. Then take his numbers in historical context, and see where he ranks all time. There isn’t really anyone who compares there either.

  173. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    PAT M.
    January 2nd, 2009 at 4:12 pm
    Earlier there was posting regarding bats….Willie Mayes used a M110 Louisville Slugger Model….I used that same bat in HS, Coolege and then at the Pro level…..Great top top weight, thin handle…Yaz used even a thinner handle but had much more end weight…..Loved hitting Lefthanded with the Yaz bat, great carry

    ============================================================

    In high school and when playing service ball, I could never find a bat that felt right. Maybe that’s why I pitched. I could hit singles, but, had almost no power and my speed was described as…..not a chance. I could run distance, but not sprints. Fair fastball, decent curve, but, my best pitch was a Staten Island Sinker.

    Every time I think about hitters and their bats, I think of Norm Cash and Graig Nettles and their exploding bats.

  174. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    .”I used that same bat in HS, Coolege and then at the Pro level…..Great top top weight, thin handle”

    you were a pull hitter weren’t you?

  175. saucY January 2nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    fred looks so cool. i’m gonna pick up some smokes once i get out of work now… :lol:

  176. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    “i just don’t think you can take that next step and say dominance in an era means that dominant player is better than the dominant player of a different time. i really think it’s a logical fallacy.”

    If that’s the case then there is absolutely no way to say that Koufax is the greatest pitcher of all time. You simply can’t say he was better – or even worse – than Walter Johnson or Cy Young. There’s no way to say that Ruth was the greatest hitter in the game. There’s no way to say that ARod in 2007 had a truly historic season.

    In fact if this is the case there is no way to discuss the history of the game. All discussions of history become logical fallacies. All you have is silence.

  177. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 4:23 pm

    timmy lupus-
    why couldn’t the greatest pitcher of all time beat the yankees ?
    how great could he be if he couldn’t figure that out?

  178. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    Think about the sort of numbers that Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Mathewson, Grover Alexander, Ford, Spahn and Feller could have put up if their defense wore gloves the size of bushel baskets, instead of folding the glove up and sticking it in their back pocket or leaving it on the field.

  179. Al from BK January 2nd, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    Yankeeray- I agree however at this point the Manny deal is looking a bit excessive. However if he would come here on a 2 year deal, that would give us the best shot at winning a title in 09 and 10 especially with the young pitchers being ready for a 2010 arrival :)

  180. Matt January 2nd, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    Sorry about bringing back an old topic, but the reason why the Red Sox were the last team to sign an African American was because Tom Yawkey was openly racist.

  181. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    saucY
    January 2nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
    fred looks so cool. i’m gonna pick up some smokes once i get out of work now…

    ————————————————————

    Those guys really knew how to control their females, didn’t they?

    I’ll take a beating on this one. LMAO

  182. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    “i still think if pedro was the greatest pitcher ever, he’d have figured a way to be better than a .500 pitcher against the yankees. if the yankees could so easily beat pedro, does that make them the greatest team ever?”

    Koufax was 18-19 against the Cincinnati Reds. Were the reds of the 1950-1960′s the greatest team of all time? They made the world series one during that time and lost.

    In my opinion if Koufax was truly the greatest pitcher of all time he would have figured out a way to be bettern than one game under .500 against the reds.

    By the way the yankee’s team Pedro was pitching against was a dynasty and any team that can win 114 games in a season is pretty good.

  183. Loading it up ! January 2nd, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    breaking news about the next Yankees trade coming Monday,,,stay tuned….

  184. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    From the right side I driove the ball top all fields…Had more power to right….From the leftside, I was a dead pull hitter….This was a result of trying to copy The Rog in whiffle ball and stick ball……I had trouble catching up to a good fast on the outside of the plate as a lefty….When I got to AA ball, Switch hitting was more of a hobby that a way of life…..

  185. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    Question …

    Nick Swisher to SFG for Henry Sosa (makes sense or not enough ?)

  186. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    Randy,

    So because he had a .500 record against the Yankees that diminishes his accomplishments? Koufax had a losing career record against Cincinnati. Does that mean he wasn’t a great pitcher?

  187. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    “Think about the sort of numbers that Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Mathewson, Grover Alexander, Ford, Spahn and Feller could have put up if their defense wore gloves the size of bushel baskets, instead of folding the glove up and sticking it in their back pocket or leaving it on the field.”

    Think of the sort of numbers they would have put up with smaller mounds, smaller parks, smaller strike zones, and racial, and international integration. Would the size of their fielders gloves really have outweighed those other factors?

  188. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    “In fact if this is the case there is no way to discuss the history of the game. All discussions of history become logical fallacies. All you have is silence.”

    i guess we’re in a conundrum because teams from different times can’t play each other on the field. what if like in boxing, someone like ali comes along who beats the end of one generation , his own generation,and the beginning of a new one? that’s dominance that crosses generations.

    in boxing you can use ali as kind of a measuring stick . in baseball surely there must have been some players who functioned as measuring sticks that crossed generations.

    i really don’t like the idea of dominance to a time to be the measuring stick of greatness. i’m not sticking up for any one era or pitcher. i just don’t think pedro is the pinnacle of pitching. i can see that if dominance in an era is used , you could make that argument though. i just think it’s highly possible his era wasn’t the best era ever.

  189. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees)
    January 2nd, 2009 at 4:31 pm
    Question …

    Nick Swisher to SFG for Henry Sosa (makes sense or not enough ?)

    ————————————————————

    Why? NYY has better in the system. Perhaps included in a trade for Nady, Edwar Ramirez or Veras and Kennedy with Rowand coming back.

  190. GMAN January 2nd, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    Good points about the pitching mound height being lowered and a much smaller official strike zone.

    These changes really help explain the decline in complete games being logged by pitchers in recent decades.

    Heck the “quality start” was not an official stat in the 70′s but if a pitcher did not get thru the 7th inning…it was portrayed as a struggling starter.

    For 5 complete innings to be considered a “quality start” is really a huge exaggeration.

  191. Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees) January 2nd, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    What’s your fascination w/ Rowand GB ?

  192. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    Rowand was horrible defensively in CF in SF last season. I’d be very wary of him. He was good defensively in that tiny CF in philadelphia but last season when he moved out to SF he had a lot of problems defensively and people in SF were disappointed with his play in CF.

    And to boot Rowand has an awful, backloaded contract that I wouldn’t want to touch.

  193. Tom January 2nd, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    This is an interesting read. the HardBall Times’s list of the greatest pitchers of all time. It uses some Bill James thing called Win Shares Above Bench to place value on a pitchers careers.

    Pedro is 35 on the list, but the article says: “In his prime, the best ever”.

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....-pitchers/

  194. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    Timmy Lupus
    January 2nd, 2009 at 4:34 pm
    “Think about the sort of numbers that Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Mathewson, Grover Alexander, Ford, Spahn and Feller could have put up if their defense wore gloves the size of bushel baskets, instead of folding the glove up and sticking it in their back pocket or leaving it on the field.”

    Think of the sort of numbers they would have put up with smaller mounds, smaller parks, smaller strike zones, and racial, and international integration. Would the size of their fielders gloves really have outweighed those other factors?

    ————————————————————

    Like Tiger Stadium or those monsterous 250 foot foul lines in the Polo Grounds, or Baker Bowl and Shibe Park or Sportsman’s Park in St. Louis or Crosley Field or……

  195. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    timmy lupos-

    i’m glad that cb entered the fray even though he agrees with your belief that greatness is best measured by comparing dominance in an era.

    he seems to be saying measuring dominance is not a perfect tool for measuring , but it’s the best we have. and it does give some insight.

    i can live with that. and because it ‘s not a perfect tool it can spit out things like pedro is the greatest pitcher ever. that’s where this tool is wrong.

    so we have agreement ? i’m just kidding because there’s no real answer to this .

  196. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    CB
    January 2nd, 2009 at 4:40 pm
    Rowand was horrible defensively in CF in SF last season. I’d be very wary of him. He was good defensively in that tiny CF in philadelphia but last season when he moved out to SF he had a lot of problems defensively and people in SF were disappointed with his play in CF.

    And to boot Rowand has an awful, backloaded contract that I wouldn’t want to touch.

    ————————————————————

    He’s not perfect, but, he’s better than Randy Winn and Johnny Damon. He’s owed 44 mil over the next 4 years. 8 mil in ’09 and 12 mil in the following 3 years. He’d move to a corner next year anyway. NYY isn’t getting a Suzuki and it’s doubtful that Cameron is traded. Not much left, unless they can screw Washington out of Milledge.

  197. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees)
    January 2nd, 2009 at 4:39 pm
    What’s your fascination w/ Rowand GB ?

    ————————————————————

    I have no fascination with Rowand, but he’s preferrable to Winn. There are few other legitimate options out there.

  198. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    Randy,

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree. All we can do is go by the records, and measurements that are available to us, and form our own opinions. Opinions, and debates about things like this are one of the things that makes being a baseball fan so much fun no?

  199. Nick in SF January 2nd, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    Only one pitcher threw contemporaneously with Johnson, Feller, Spahn, Koufax, Gibson, and Pedro.

    If someone can figure out the Livan Quotient, we can accuratelt compare pitchers from all these eras.

  200. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 4:58 pm

    “When I got to AA ball, Switch hitting was more of a hobby that a way of life…..”

    i’m assuming that’s when breaking balls made hitting lefty much more difficult.

  201. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 5:00 pm

    It’s amazing how much baseball has evolved and continues to evolve.

    By the time our grandkids have grandkids, the game probably won’t resemble anything like it did in the 1950s. Maybe there will be women playing, maybe the materials made to use the baseball will change, maybe there will be teams in the Carolinas and Vegas, etc.

    It’ll be interesting to see how it develops. No other American sport has anything remotely rivaling this.

    Only hockey can sort of come close, but for many years there were only six teams…

  202. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    Nick,

    How did we leave the real GOAT out of this argument? Everyone knows no one in history can eat innings quite like Livan can.

  203. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 5:03 pm

    “Opinions, and debates about things like this are one of the things that makes being a baseball fan so much fun no?”

    timmy lupus-
    agreed about the fun. we do spend an amazing amount of time on baseball though. i like to think these kind of abstract discussions prepare me to understand simpler things like the world economic system falling apart so there is also a practical side to it.lol.

    i enjoyed the discussion.

  204. Al from BK January 2nd, 2009 at 5:03 pm

    Loading it up- I wonder what that trade could be? ;) More magic from Cash?

  205. ANSKY January 2nd, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    CB –

    “Did Gibson ever face anyone wearing the kind of protective armor Barry Bonds used to? Not even close. And if Gibson had he would have still been intimidating, but not nearly as much so.”

    I beg to differ, CB. My take on Gibson at his intimidating best is that if Barry Bonds stepped into the batter’s box with that armor on his elbow & forearm, and whatever else he may have worn under his uniform, Gibson would have taken notice, taken exception, and hit him harder somewhere else. There was nothing in the rules to stop him from doing this.

    And, Gibson played for the Cardinals so he took at bats himself. A deterrent? Maybe not. No pitcher in his right mind would try to hit him or he’d get beaned himself next time up. There was no warning rule against retaliation at that time.

    When Clemens batted against the Mets after the whole Mike Piazza thing, there was one pitch thrown at him but it missed him, a warning was issued and that was the end of it. Back in Gibson’s time, w/o the rules, Clemens would’ve sent a message back. That’s just the way Clemens was.

  206. ANSKY January 2nd, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    On second thought Clemens also knew the score when he stepped into the box against the Mets. He was expecting to take his lumps. Maybe that would’ve been it unless they went for his head. As it was they threw at his butt & missed. So maybe he wouldn’t have sent a message back.

  207. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    “If someone can figure out the Livan Quotient, we can accuratelt compare pitchers from all these eras.”

    nick in sf-

    you’re always thinking. somehow i was thinking of someone more muhammad ali as a benchmark than livan , but i guess it’s all relative like in currency trading. i guess it would take a wheel barrow full of livan’s to get one pedro. but maybe two wheelbarrows of livan’s to get a gibson or koufax.

  208. Nick in SF January 2nd, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    ANSKY: we’ve since learned that Clemens didn’t mind taking shots to his butt, so I’m not sure if the comparison works.

    Sorry, too easy.

  209. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    randy,

    There’s one other thing I’ll say about Pedro and comparing him to players from other times, particularly Koufax, Gibson and Walter Johnson by using ERA+.

    There is an area where statistics does come into play in the comparison, particularly when ERA+ is used.

    ERA+ essentially divides a players ERA by the league average ERA.

    With these kinds of statistics you can reach a kind of limit for what’s possible because of the baseline level of performance.

    This is a general issue with numbers. Just as an example from outside of baseball that’s in the news a lot these days. China’s economy for the past decade has been growing at around 7-10% per year. That’s unbelievably impressive.

    But much of the reason why that’s possible is because the baseline was so low. It is much, much easier to grow at 10% if your GDP is $800 billion than it is if your GDP is 13 or so trillion as it in the U.S.

    It would be nearly impossible for the U.S. economy to grow at 10% in a year given that it is so enormous to begin with. Growing the economy 80-100B in a year is just much easier to do than growing it 1.3 trillion.

    In a sense you can consider the league average ERA in the 1960′ to be like the U.S. economy. At that time the league average ERA was so low that it may have been simply beyond the limits of what’s possible for Koufax to put up the same ERA+’s as pedro did.

    For example in ’68 Gibson had an era of 1.12 with a league average ERA of 2.90. That’s an ERA+ of 258. Pedro’s best was an ERA of 1.74 while the league average was 5.0 for an ERA+ of 290.

    With Gibson the baseline level of performance was so extreme that ERA+ starts to hurt him some because it becomes almost impossble to start posting an era+ of 290 – he’d have to have an ERA of 1.00. The differences between an ERA of 1.12 and 1.00 start to make less and less of a difference and start pushing against the inherent random nature of the game (e.g. Mariano giving up a bloop hit to lose a game…).

    With a baseline ERA of 5.0 Pedro had more offense to deal with but also more room to show his dominance.

    For that reason when people say that Pedro’s ERA+ of 290 is much better than Gibson’s 258 in ’68 I don’t particularly agree with that.

    Now that opposite is happening with hitting. Pujols has a career OPS+ of 170. Part of what makes that so amazing is that the baseline he’s compared to is already so high. Pujols level of hitting at baseline is comparable in ways to the baseline level of pitching gibson was facing.

    So in this sense Pujols putting up an OPS+ of 170 is more difficult than it was for Mantle to put up an OPS+ of 172 for his career.

  210. ANSKY January 2nd, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    Nick, I was kinda thinking the same thing as I was typing that :)

  211. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Fifty years from now, are we going to be hailing A-Rod or Pujols as the greatest player of the modern era?

  212. saucY January 2nd, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Rebecca, I think you can throw basketball in there. Imagine if the guy who invented basketball watched an NBA game of today. I doubt that is what he intended it to be…. 7 foot tall guys, fouls, and clock management…

  213. ANSKY January 2nd, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    Assuming I live that long, I’d love to see how that unfolds, Rebecca.

    I’d also like to see how Manny Ramirez’, Roger Clemens, Mark McGwire’s, Barry Bonds’ & etc legends take shape that long after they’re done playing.

  214. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    “Fifty years from now, are we going to be hailing A-Rod or Pujols as the greatest player of the modern era?”

    Rebecca,

    There is simply no comparison any longer between Alex and Pujols. Pujols is better – by a lot.

    Pujols won’t be compared to Alex in the future. He’ll be compared to Gehrig, Ted Williams and Jimmy Fox.

    Alex’s greatest 1-2 seasons are close to average seasons for Pujols. That’s how much better Pujols is than Alex.

    And on top of that Pujols is a much better defensive 1b than Alex is a defensive 3b.

    Pujols is just unreal. If he was paid $40-45M a year he’d be worth it.

  215. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    Randy I,,,,,I just could not stop from pulling out on fastballs down and away from the left side…..Actually I was pretting good with the offspeed stuff when hitting LH….Fastballs down and away, sad, very sad…However bring it in and I’d hit high and far…..As for the comparsions from different eras, tough call….I just look at the pitchers and think how I’d fair out vs. them….Koufax will still be the high water mark 50 years from now…..Pedro is in that elite group, but just not Sandy Koufax

  216. ANSKY January 2nd, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    Who else wonders if Boston will try to get Pujols when he becomes available? The idea of moving Youkilis to 3B to accommodate Teixiera would be even more intriguing from their point of view, Lowell wouldn’t be an issue and now that NY has Tiexiera, NY wouldn’t be an issue either.

    Fortunately, Ortiz is finally beginning to decline (although he can still hit) and Manny returning to Boston is out of the question.

  217. ANSKY January 2nd, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    Even more intriguing from their point of view WHEN CONSIDERING PUJOLS INSTEAD (sorry I didnt complete the sentence)

  218. ANSKY January 2nd, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    Pat M … I’m not sure who you are (you don’t have to say) but what years did you play?

  219. Jack January 2nd, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    If Pujols becomes a FA, its pretty much a guarentee that he will be in Boston. A no brainer.

    But I wouldn’t count them out this off-season to acquire a guy like Berkman, Joe Mauer, Ryan Braun, Josh Hamilton, Brian McCaan, James Loney, Adrian Gonzalez etc. They still have plenty of chips to trade and money to spend. They will not stand pat this winter.

  220. Ed - American League, prepare to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 2nd, 2009 at 5:31 pm

    1 more month til spring training! can’t wait to see Teix, CC, and Aj in Yankee uniform. I’m heading down to Fl for a few days to visit my dad, and going to the games. :D

  221. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 5:32 pm

    CB: So why did we get stuck with Alex? o-o

  222. Boothe53 January 2nd, 2009 at 5:32 pm

    I can see Boston picking up a bat at SS like JJ Hardy, Yunel Escobar, Miguel Tejada, etc.

  223. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 5:32 pm

    Jack
    January 2nd, 2009 at 5:30 pm
    If Pujols becomes a FA, its pretty much a guarentee that he will be in Boston. A no brainer.

    But I wouldn’t count them out this off-season to acquire a guy like Berkman, Joe Mauer, Ryan Braun, Josh Hamilton, Brian McCaan, James Loney, Adrian Gonzalez etc. They still have plenty of chips to trade and money to spend. They will not stand pat this winter.

    ————————————————————

    You have been reading too many Jon Heyman fantasies.

  224. Mike January 2nd, 2009 at 5:33 pm

    Larsen was a league-averge pitcher for his career, mostly serving as a back-of-the-rotation starter/swing man during most of his Yankee career. That said, he was better than league average in ’55 and ’56. He was tall, but not a hard thrower, hence the no-wind-up delivery. I had a few more observations than PeteAbe, although probably none different than the many here.

    Players did look “normal sized,” although I think they appeared smaller than many were. Larsen was 6’4″, but even he appeared tiny because of the distant camera postion, low resolution and its high angle. The puffy uniforms they wore also contributed. No close-ups, etc.

    Speaking of cameras, I would have loved a CF camera so we really could see pitch movement, and better, get a chance to truly see many of these hitters swing the bat.

    It was fun to watch Yogi as a young man when he was quite active behind the plate. Low to the ground and compact, he had the perfect build for a catcher. I could even see him talking to the opposing hitters, something he was known to do, much to their annoyance. As a hitter, Yogi wasn’t a tall man by any stretch, even for his time, but his swing reminded me a bit of Joe Morgan’s. He was taller, but like Morgan, I can see how his build and upper cut allowed him to generate power. A unique style of hitter and player during any time.

    It was great to see a Mantle HR, but even better to see one example of the ground he covered with his speed on that catch. I never saw the orginial Stadium, but I wonder how someone like DiMaggio EVER hit a HR there.

    Men in suits and hats at a game. Was that standard for a man every time he went out back in the 50s, or were they coming from work? Or cutting work?!

    The orderly exit of fans on to the field AFTER a World Series game, not to mention a perfect game. When did that practice stop?

    Who was Andy Carey, the third-baseman? This was well before my time, but I don’t remember hearing his name before. Looked up his record. Must have been more a defensive player, but he did play for the Yankees for seven or eight seasons, but I don’t think I’ve seen him at a Yankee Old Timer’s game, even though he appears to still be alive.

    The shadows between home plate and the pitcher totally helped both pitchers. I think I heard that mentioned before, but it was interesting to see the shadows creeping toward the pitcher’s mound over the first six innings.

    All in all, fun to see. I hope there are more really old-time classic games to be discovered.

  225. Ed - American League, prepare to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 2nd, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    “I can see Boston picking up a bat at SS like JJ Hardy, Yunel Escobar, Miguel Tejada, etc.”

    wait so Boston isn’t contend with Jed Lowrie for SS?

  226. Nick in SF January 2nd, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    This is fun, but anytime you make comparisons across different eras, or even within eras, every player is going to have caveats.

    Except Arod, of course; he has cravateats.

  227. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    Andruw Jones and the Dodgers have agrred on a restructuring of his contract, with much of it deferred.

  228. AG D23 January 2nd, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    We better grab Manny before LA does

  229. Mr Torre January 2nd, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    pujols will never make free agency

  230. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    The Dodgers can keep both dogs and open a kennel.

  231. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    CB,

    I agree 100% about Pujols. It’s a shame he doesn’t get near the recognition he deserves by the average baseball fan, and even the media. Whenever I see a Yankee fan regurgitating the line “A-Rod is the best player in baseball” that has been shoved down their throats by certain media outlets it makes me cringe. I’ve even seen Yankee fans say he’ll go down as the greatest hitter ever it’s just comical. Statements like that make the whole Yankee fan base look bad.

  232. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    Timmy Lupus
    January 2nd, 2009 at 5:52 pm
    CB,

    I agree 100% about Pujols. It’s a shame he doesn’t get near the recognition he deserves by the average baseball fan, and even the media. Whenever I see a Yankee fan regurgitating the line “A-Rod is the best player in baseball” that has been shoved down their throats by certain media outlets it makes me cringe. I’ve even seen Yankee fans say he’ll go down as the greatest hitter ever it’s just comical. Statements like that make the whole Yankee fan base look bad.

    ————————————————————

    Almost like Red Sox fans insisting that Pedro Martinez is one of the top 10 pitchers of all time and better than Koufax.

  233. Old Ranger January 2nd, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    Don Larsen had a .3.78 era., but it was as you saw in the game last night. Wider and taller strike zone, plus the mound was higher. In those days, they had guys like Sal “The Barber” Maglie, Bob Turly etc. Sal would throw at your head in a heartbeat (so would Bob Gibson) and Bob had those bottle glasses (he got up ne’er 96/98, so they say) the funny thing about Bob T. is…he couldn’t see all that well, and everyone knew it.
    Neillies’ bat was like the one I used in H.S. and college. Never hit a ball over an OF head but, sure could hit for avg. and gaps. I would put my hands apart and depending where the pitch was, I would slide one hand up or down…don’t teach to your kids.

  234. Ken January 2nd, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    Precisely why Pujols needs to go to a bigger market when he hits FA, so he can finally get the respect and attention he deserves.

    He will be a Met or Red Sox

  235. all pro 972 January 2nd, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    manny can put us over the top

    right now we are still behind boston. sign manny and we are the favorites

  236. NJ YANKEES January 2nd, 2009 at 6:02 pm

    If the Mets can sign Lowe to that 3 yr deal, they would have had one hell of an off-season. I’m impressed.

  237. Um.. January 2nd, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    Alex can steal bases and was a far better shortstop than Jeter respect his ganster all you want it’s true.

    Would I rather have Pujols than A-rod?

    HAH

    PUJOLS

    Not a tough call.

    I grant you that Pujols does get somewhat less recognition than what he deserves but when Alex is stealing bases and putting up the MVP numbers ala 07 I don’t think it’s a stupid converstation to compare the two players.

    Put it this way I’ve seen A-Rod get goofy two out singles and stretch them into runs a lot more than what the numbers seem to indicate.

    Not sure if that’s just me pulling for the guy and not giving Albert his fair due or not.

  238. Buddy Biancalana January 2nd, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    So what’s the bet with Brandon & Nick? Moose bars involved? If so, I may want a piece of the action too. Rebecca can hold the loot for safe keeping… er…. safe eating.

  239. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    Old Ranger
    January 2nd, 2009 at 5:58 pm
    Don Larsen had a .3.78 era., but it was as you saw in the game last night. Wider and taller strike zone, plus the mound was higher. In those days, they had guys like Sal “The Barber” Maglie, Bob Turly etc. Sal would throw at your head in a heartbeat (so would Bob Gibson) and Bob had those bottle glasses (he got up ne’er 96/98, so they say) the funny thing about Bob T. is…he couldn’t see all that well, and everyone knew it.

    Neillies’ bat was like the one I used in H.S. and college. Never hit a ball over an OF head but, sure could hit for avg. and gaps. I would put my hands apart and depending where the pitch was, I would slide one hand up or down…don’t teach to your kids.

    ————————————————————

    Not trying to sharp shoot you, Ranger, but, I think you have Bullit Bob Turley with Ryne Duren. Turley was a bit wild, but, not as bad as Duren. It wasn’t that he was just wild, but, he was usually hung over. Both threw in the upper 90s. Duren’s first two practice pitches were usually over the backstop. Batters refused to step in until he wiped his glasses.

  240. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 6:08 pm

    “Almost like Red Sox fans insisting that Pedro Martinez is one of the top 10 pitchers of all time and better than Koufax.”

    Or a Yankee fan using the stats, and records of baseball history to insist that Pedro in his prime was indeed one of the top 10 pitchers of all time if not the top. Even has a Yankee fan I can acknowledge that Ted Williams was indeed one the best pure hitters to ever step onto a baseball field. Doesn’t make a Sox fan.

  241. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 6:09 pm

    Thing is, St. Louis would have to be real stupid to let Pujols go during Free Agency.

    When you have someone like Pujols at your disposal, you do what you can to keep him.

    St. Louis might not be in the same league as the Yankees and Sox when it comes to money, but they’re no Twins or Rays, either.

  242. HJ638 January 2nd, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    I agree – People wonder by the media doesn’t bash Omar more. It’s because after bad moves, he ALWAYS redeems himself like he did this winter. I still can’t believe they got Putz for virtually nothing. Omar is great at making trades

  243. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    Rebecca,

    The thing is does he want to take a hometown discount, or go for the huge payday like every other player. Unless the Cardinals offer him an A-Rod type contract I’d be shocked if didn’t become a FA. I’d love to see him in pinstripes, but as we all know it looks like it’ll never happen.

  244. Caption January 2nd, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    Pujols will be the first $30 million per year player. Way out of STL’s price range when Boston and the Mets will be hungry for him.

    Sadly we signed Tex so we will be on the sidelines for the Pujols sweepstakes.

  245. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 6:14 pm

    “Thing is, St. Louis would have to be real stupid to let Pujols go during Free Agency.”

    Not necessarily. Is it really in the Cardinals best interest to pay one player $30-35M per year over 8-10 years? Can they afford that and still put together a viable team around him?

    This was a very good analysis of the problem the cards are faced with:

    http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/20.....-to-albert

  246. Zolio January 2nd, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    Pujols won a ring in STL so he may not feel the need to be loyal and stay to try and win a championship there… he may decide its time to move on to bigger and better things and go to the big stage to showcase himself.

  247. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    “Sadly we signed Tex so we will be on the sidelines for the Pujols sweepstakes.”

    I don’t think this is true. If Pujols ever hits the market the yankees will be in on the bidding in a major way. They’ll worry about the position issue afterwards.

    He’s worth 45M per year. If you can sign him for 30M-35M/ year it’s a very good deal.

    I’m not sure if he’ll ever make it to free agency however due to his elbow. Given that it could blow out at any time I could see him taking an extension that paid him as the highest paid player in the game/ largest deal.

    If he hits the market he’ll get more than $30M/year.

  248. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    Timmy Lupus
    January 2nd, 2009 at 6:08 pm
    “Almost like Red Sox fans insisting that Pedro Martinez is one of the top 10 pitchers of all time and better than Koufax.”

    Or a Yankee fan using the stats, and records of baseball history to insist that Pedro in his prime was indeed one of the top 10 pitchers of all time if not the top. Even has a Yankee fan I can acknowledge that Ted Williams was indeed one the best pure hitters to ever step onto a baseball field. Doesn’t make a Sox fan.

    ————————————————————

    I only go by what I saw. Koufax and Ryan were the only two pitchers that I ever saw that it was a only a shocker when they didn’t throw a no hitter, not tt they did. They had the greatest combination of fastbal and curve that I ever saw. Upper 90s to 100 MPH fastball and a hard 12-6 curve. As good as Gibson and Martinez were, I never had that feeling.

  249. KathleenZ January 2nd, 2009 at 6:20 pm

    I haven’t read all the comments so I don’t know if anyone else mentioned this, but I was struck by the attire of the people in the stands. Many of the men were wearing ties and jackets! Also, I remember as a little girl being taken to the Stadium by my dad (before the renovations) and being absolutely amazed at the size of it. I agree, Peter. I’d love to see more of the old games mixed in with the new.

  250. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    Interesting. Thanks guys. Once again, I should probably stay away from anything remotley concerned with Math…

  251. Wilson January 2nd, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    The Cards missed the playoffs 2 yeaes in a row and play in the same division with the best team in the NL in the Cubs who will be a great regular season team for a while. So it’s not like they are winning every year. They won a fluke championship while going .500 and it’s been downhill ever since.

    It’s in Pujols’ best interest to leave. What can the Cardinals really offer him that is incentive enough to stay? I really want him to stay because if he hits FA then it’s a lock he goes to Boston or the Mets which would suck for us, but I just don’t see it.

  252. Don January 2nd, 2009 at 6:24 pm

    We can always trade Teixeria in 2011 if we pay a portion of his salary like Texas did with A-Rod. We can also move Pujols to DH, though I’m not sure if he will agree.

  253. R-Tek January 2nd, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    We’ll be in on Pujols… Teixeria is expendable for Pujols if it comes to it.

  254. vtred January 2nd, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    If you can get Pujols for 7/$245 ($35 mil per)… I’d do it.

  255. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 6:31 pm

    It’s not fair to Pedro to compare him with Koufax…Pedro was outstanding true, but Sandy Koufaz was in a league all of his own…..Just think Guidry’s 78 season….That was Sandy Koufax…..He just dominated , he was the Babe on the hill……

  256. Nick in SF January 2nd, 2009 at 6:35 pm

    Buddy, I don’t think Brandon will put his Moose Bars where his mouth is.

    Let me rephrase that: I don’t think he’ll make the bet.

    But he may come up with a scenario in which we give up Matsui and Kennedy and get back Sanchez and Pujols.

  257. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    GB7,

    You have your opinion, and I have mine. I’ve stated my reasons for my opinion so I really don’t want to get into all of it again. For the record I never once stated that Koufax wasn’t one of the all time greats. I also know that just because you think Koufax may have been the greatest it doesn’t make you a Dodger fan. Just as my opinions on Pedro doesn’t make me any less of a Yankee fan.

  258. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    “I only go by what I saw. Koufax and Ryan were the only two pitchers that I ever saw that it was a only a shocker when they didn’t throw a no hitter, not tt they did.”

    Never saw Ryan when he was on the Mets or the Angels but I watched him on Houston. Many people thought he continued to get better as he got older so I don’t know if I missed his best period.

    But I personally was as puzzled by him as I was impressed. His stuff was amazing but watching him was sort of incredible in an entirely different way. I just kept asking myself how could a guy who throws like that walk so many hitters? Why not just throw the ball and challenge them to hit it.

    My subjective impression of Ryan was that he used to get lost in the hitter or even in the next pitch. His goal seemed to be more focused on getting a hitter to miss the next pitch rather than winning the game as a whole.

    He seemed to me to be more tactics and less strategy.

    I thought Randy Johnson was a much better pitcher.

    We talk a lot about Pedro from the 1990′s but RJ was a guy who had both tremendous levels of production and all time great stuff.

  259. Brian (Red Sox Fan) January 2nd, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    Interesting discussion(s) …. a few points:

    (1) Readdressing the emotional bat issue, MLB Network just confirmed my earlier recollection of Ted Williams using a 32 oz. bat.

    (2) I’ve seen pitchers from Warren Spahn to CC Sabathia, and Koufax and Pedro are light years ahead of everyone else (during their respective 5 year Supernova phases). I give the nod to Koufax because of his post-season success.
    I don’t have the typing speed to make the statistical arguments …. they were artists, and unhittable.
    P.S. Willie Mays is the best position player I have ever seen… much like Ali in boxing …. consumate skill, and a heavy dose of innovation.

    (3) Won’t Pujols be 32 when his St. Louis contract is up? ARod’s contract notwithstanding, who’s going to give Pujols top dollar until he is 42?

  260. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    Timmy Lupus,,,You may want to visit # 32′s lifetime stats……Including his WS numbers…..

  261. SJ44 January 2nd, 2009 at 6:45 pm

    How is Tex “expendable”? He has a full no trade clause.

    Its not a video game. The Yankees aren’t trading Tex if Pujols hits the market and they aren’t signing Pujols.

    This is why the world hates Yankees fans. Two weeks after shocking the baseball world, some of you aren’t happy with the signing and already have the guy on the way out for a player who isn’t (and probably won’t ever be) on the market.

    Albert Pujols IS St. Louis. They have plenty of money and will do whatever it takes to keep him in St. Louis.

    He also loves playing in St. Louis. Only way he leaves that market is if he thinks the team can’t contend. Not very likely given the ease of the division in which the Cardinals reside.

  262. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 2nd, 2009 at 6:57 pm

    SJ: Doesn’t speak well for the division, that it’s an easy division and yet it’s the only one with six teams…

  263. Nick in SF January 2nd, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    SJ44: I thought the world hated Yankees fans because the world is full of jealous babies and sore losers.

  264. Timmy Lupus January 2nd, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    PAT M,

    Ok,

    Koufax- W/l% 655 Rank 24th all time
    ERA- 2.76, League ERA 3.62
    ERA+ 131 36th all time
    K/9 – 9.28 5th all time
    WHIP – 1.106 23rd all time
    SO to Walk – 2.93 38th all time

    Pedro- W/l% 684 Rank 7th all time
    ERA – 2.91, League ERA 4.50
    ERA+ – 154 1st all time for a SP
    K/9 10.08 3rd all time
    WHIP 1.051 5th all time
    SO to walk – 4.14 3rd all time

    Obviously Koufax’s PS numbers are unreal there is no denying that. But as entire career in what way are they not comparable?

  265. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 7:09 pm

    CB
    January 2nd, 2009 at 6:40 pm
    “I only go by what I saw. Koufax and Ryan were the only two pitchers that I ever saw that it was a only a shocker when they didn’t throw a no hitter, not tt they did.”

    Never saw Ryan when he was on the Mets or the Angels but I watched him on Houston. Many people thought he continued to get better as he got older so I don’t know if I missed his best period.

    But I personally was as puzzled by him as I was impressed. His stuff was amazing but watching him was sort of incredible in an entirely different way. I just kept asking myself how could a guy who throws like that walk so many hitters? Why not just throw the ball and challenge them to hit it.

    My subjective impression of Ryan was that he used to get lost in the hitter or even in the next pitch. His goal seemed to be more focused on getting a hitter to miss the next pitch rather than winning the game as a whole.

    He seemed to me to be more tactics and less strategy.

    I thought Randy Johnson was a much better pitcher.

    We talk a lot about Pedro from the 1990’s but RJ was a guy who had both tremendous levels of production and all time great stuff.

    ————————————————————

    Koufax and Ryan had one other thing in common….neither were ready when they first came up and it took 5-6 years for that unGodly talent to mature. Koufax through his first 6 years was 40-40. Those next 6 were amazing. Had it not been for that arthritic elbow, he could easily have won 300. 165 wins at age 30 when he retired.

    Ryan’s control finally cam around age 30. Had he discovered that 5 years earlier, who knows. He was throwing 160-190 pitches in some of those games, with 18 strikeouts and 10-11 walks, but very few hits. Hard to figure that trade….that arm and Lee Stanton’s power for Jim Fregosi? Two unbelievable arms.

    I’m almost 60, and I’ve never seen stuff like that before or since. Guidry was close for a few years.

  266. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 7:12 pm

    Maybe it’s was his four no-hitters and perfect game….Or that he faced some of the greatest hitters of all time …..Or maybe it was just watching him and then watching Pedro…Then again he was lefthanded vs. a dominate right hand hitting league….Koufax during his reign of terror was simply the greatest pitcher ever to toe the rubber…Yes he struggled out of the gate and did retire at the ager of 32…..Pull up Game 1 of the 1963 WS vs. the Yanks,,,,

  267. Wave Your Hat January 2nd, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    Wow, don’t some of you guys ever leave your computer? You need to get out more. Happy New Year!

    IMO most of us saw the greatest pitcher to ever step on the mound – Roger Clemens. Yes, other guys had a better season or two (or four or five in Pedro’s case) but for sheer long term brilliance in a hitter’s era Roger’s run from 1986 to 1998 can’t be beat.

    Koufax, Gibson, Pedro, IMO they just didn’t do it at the highest level long enough. And Ryan, great and indestructible as he was, never quite reached the absolute heights on a season by season, as opposed to a career, basis.

    I think you need to be very careful reaching back to look at guys like the Big Train. The fact is, the overall talent in the majors then was very uneven, compared to today, and when that happens you are going to get statistical outliers.

    You can’t take an ERA+ from the pre-war periods and compare it to the modern era. The overall ability of the worst guys in the majors now is higher than the worst guys in the majors then.

    Guys like Johnson and Grove were great, but they didn’t face what modern pitchers do today.

  268. Buddy Biancalana January 2nd, 2009 at 7:18 pm

    He was throwing 160-190 pitches in some of those games, with 18 strikeouts and 10-11 walks, but very few hits.

    ———————————————————–

    Is this true? That’s incredible!

  269. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 7:18 pm

    PAT M.
    January 2nd, 2009 at 7:12 pm
    Maybe it’s was his four no-hitters and perfect game….Or that he faced some of the greatest hitters of all time …..Or maybe it was just watching him and then watching Pedro…Then again he was lefthanded vs. a dominate right hand hitting league….Koufax during his reign of terror was simply the greatest pitcher ever to toe the rubber…Yes he struggled out of the gate and did retire at the ager of 32…..Pull up Game 1 of the 1963 WS vs. the Yanks,,,,

    ————————————————————

    I watched that perfect game against the Cubs with 3 HOF bats (Santo should be in the HOF), Williams, Banks, and Santo in order. Williams said that he told Banks and Williams after the first batter that the Cubs had no chance. There wasn’t even a loud foul off of Koufax.

  270. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    Correction: Williams said that he told Banks and ***Santo***

  271. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 7:27 pm

    As I stated, look at the 63 WS game 1,,,,,He whiffed Richardson, Kubek, Mantle, Maris and Howard …..15 k’s vs. one of the greatest lineups ever……Then turns around and beats them 2-1 five days later…Ford did pitch a 2 hitter ansd lost on Pepi’s error

  272. Brian (Red Sox Fan) January 2nd, 2009 at 7:28 pm

    I read the Dolores Kearns Goodwin biography on Koufax, and it implied that anti-Semitism was a primary factor in Koufax’ slow development. Supposedly, he was buried in the bullpen, pitched irregularly, pulled too soon, left in too long, etc.
    I have absolutely no personal knowledge on this matter …. just trying to paraphrase Goodwin’s reporting.

    Wave Your Hat – trying not to be incendiary here, but placing Clemens in the Pitcher’s Pantheon based on his PED-driven longevity is a dicey argument.

  273. Wave Your Hat January 2nd, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    “Wave Your Hat – trying not to be incendiary here, but placing Clemens in the Pitcher’s Pantheon based on his PED-driven longevity is a dicey argument.”

    Brian (Red Sox Fan)-

    I’m in a minority I know but for me, the only thing that matters is what the results were on the field.

  274. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    Buddy Biancalana
    January 2nd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
    He was throwing 160-190 pitches in some of those games, with 18 strikeouts and 10-11 walks, but very few hits.
    —————————————————————————————-

    Is this true? That’s incredible!

    I’m no sure that Ryan was human. When he retired at age 47, he was still throwing 86 MPH and had a torn ligament in his elbow…it was held by a small piece of tissue.

    re’s a conservative pitch count from a 1974 game.

    http://www.mlive.com/fantasysp.....th_pi.html

    ***There’s no record of actual pitch counts in 1974, but Nolan Ryan on June 14 faced 58 Red Sox hitters, striking out 19 and walking 10 in 13 innings. For his career, he averaged four pitches per batter. That night, his figure likely was higher, but it still conservatively puts him at 232 pitches***

    ***You can’t expect any pitcher to do what Nolan Ryan did in 1974 — 332.7 innings, 367 Ks, 202 walks and 1,392 batters faced. (Very conservatively assuming four pitches per batter, that’s 133 pitches per his 42 starts.) ***

    http://www.mlive.com/fantasysp.....th_pi.html

  275. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 7:35 pm

    I did metion that he faced mostly right hand hitters….

  276. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    Buddy Biancalana
    January 2nd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
    He was throwing 160-190 pitches in some of those games, with 18 strikeouts and 10-11 walks, but very few hits.
    —————————————————————————————-

    Is this true? That’s incredible!

    I’m no sure that Ryan was human. When he retired at age 47, he was still throwing 86 MPH and had a torn ligament in his elbow…it was held by a small piece of tissue.

    re’s a conservative pitch count from a 1974 game.

    http://www.mlive.com/fantasysp.....th_pi.html

    There’s no record of actual pitch counts in 1974, but Nolan Ryan on June 14 faced 58 Red Sox hitters, striking out 19 and walking 10 in 13 innings. For his career, he averaged four pitches per batter. That night, his figure likely was higher, but it still conservatively puts him at 232 pitches

    You can’t expect any pitcher to do what Nolan Ryan did in 1974—332.7 innings, 367 Ks, 202 walks and 1,392 batters faced. (Very conservatively assuming four pitches per batter, that’s 133 pitches per his 42 starts.)

  277. Wave Your Hat January 2nd, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    I think if you let the mound height go back to 15 inches, and then didn’t even really enforce that, you’d see a lot of pitchers get strikeout totals comparable to Koufax and Gibson.

  278. Um.. January 2nd, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    Clemens is one meth and whiskey binge away from being John Daly.

    The guy is an embarrassment to baseball, his family, the united states public education system, and people named Roger.

    He’s the one player more than any other who overwhelms my best attempt to be fair and analytical when trying to separate his on the field career from the jerry springerlike charade he chose to use to combat the Mitchell allegations.

  279. jennifer January 2nd, 2009 at 7:41 pm

    Are people hitting the bong. 35 million for Albert.

  280. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    Brian (Red Sox Fan)
    January 2nd, 2009 at 7:28 pm
    I read the Dolores Kearns Goodwin biography on Koufax, and it implied that anti-Semitism was a primary factor in Koufax’ slow development. Supposedly, he was buried in the bullpen, pitched irregularly, pulled too soon, left in too long, etc.
    I have absolutely no personal knowledge on this matter …. just trying to paraphrase Goodwin’s reporting.

    Wave Your Hat – trying not to be incendiary here, but placing Clemens in the Pitcher’s Pantheon based on his PED-driven longevity is a dicey argument.

    ————————————————————

    anti-semitism probably didn’t have as much to do with. It was that he was a bonus baby and the Dodges had to keep him on the 25 man roster for 2 years or release him. The owners at that time designed that rule to keep teams like the Yanks from signing these kids for big bonuses. Koufax was only 18 and his sport was basketball. He played baseball to stay in shape. I wonder if maybe he didn’t play the wrong sport. As a Yankee fan, at least in 1963, I’d say he should have stuck to basketball.

  281. Buddy Biancalana January 2nd, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    13 innings & 232 pitches, that’s really mindblowing.

  282. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 7:55 pm

    Apparently, the new rumor floating is Brian Roberts to the Whit Sox for Gavin Floyd.

    ————————————————————

    White Sox And Orioles Discussing Floyd-Roberts Swap
    By Drew Silva [January 2 at 6:40pm CST]
    According to Roch Kubatko of MASN, the White Sox have discussed a trade with the Orioles for second baseman Brian Roberts.

    Gavin Floyd would be sent over from Chicago. The White Sox reportedly want to make it a straight-up swap, but the Orioles, predictably, are asking for more. Floyd went 17-8 last season with a 3.84 ERA and grew up in the Baltimore area.

  283. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 8:00 pm

    Buddy Biancalana
    January 2nd, 2009 at 7:54 pm
    13 innings & 232 pitches, that’s really mindblowing.

    ————————————————————

    Imagine wht his yearly pitch totals had to be. He took it easy in his next start, 4 days later. Only 6 innings, hits, 0 runs, 3 walks and 7 strikeouts…against the Yankees.

  284. PAT M. January 2nd, 2009 at 8:08 pm

    I remember watching the Yanks in 1975 vs. The Angels in Anaheim….Catfish and Rtyan each pitched 11 innings…Yank won in the bottom of the 12th, no clue how many pitches they threw…I do believe Huinter has 20 complete games that first year with the Yanks……

  285. randy l January 2nd, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    you leave for a few hours of a good discussion and it’s hard to keep up. i just looked at koufax’ s record. the 335 innings ad the 331 innings jumped out when he was at his peak. if pedro had to do that even in his prime , i think he’d have been a power pitcher for about a year or two at most. no way he could have held up to that kind of workload, so workload is another difference that makes it hard to compare pitchers from different eras.

    …and cb, thanks for the detailed explanation of ERA+ and the difficulty of using it for different eras.

  286. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    PAT M.
    January 2nd, 2009 at 8:08 pm
    I remember watching the Yanks in 1975 vs. The Angels in Anaheim….Catfish and Rtyan each pitched 11 innings…Yank won in the bottom of the 12th, no clue how many pitches they threw…I do believe Huinter has 20 complete games that first year with the Yanks……

    ————————————————————

    Hunter had 328 innings and 39 starts, 30 complete games. Martin had zero sense when handling pitchers. Hunter was never the same after that year. He destroyed two pitching staffs in Oakland, too.

  287. CB January 2nd, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    “no way he could have held up to that kind of workload, so workload is another difference that makes it hard to compare pitchers from different eras.”

    True. Sandy Koufax threw 2324 innings in his career and Walter Johnson threw 5,915. (Pedro by the way has thrown 2800 innings in his career.)

    True pitchers from the 50′s and 60′s threw more innings than they do now in the 5 man rotation.

    But it’s equally as true that the pitchers in the 50′s and 60′s generally threw fewer innings than the pitchers from the 20′s and 30′s.

    Of the 500 highest innings total in a season only around 10 took place after 1950.

    Ultimately, Koufax couldn’t handle the kind of workload over his career that Johnson did and he did “break.”

    Johnson had a career ERA of 2.17. Koufax had an ERA of 2.76.

    I’m still waiting for anyone to explain how Koufax is better than Johnson other than the fact that no one happened to see Johnson pitch or some kind of relative argument that says that Koufax in his ERA was better than Johnson in his.

  288. Brian (Red Sox Fan) January 2nd, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    Randy 1 – just back from watching the 2004 ALCS on MLB Channel; the gift that keeps on giving.

    But, back to Koufax …. as I previously stated, the best I’ve ever seen. Here’s my “greatness” test: if martians land in the USA, and watch Koufax pitch, without even knowing what baseball is, they would conclude that he does whatever he’s doing better than anyone else does it.

    But his IP totals harken back to the “different era” argument. He started every 4 days, and finished his starts. It’s the way it was.

    Check Dick Raddatz’ totals from 1963 -1965. If Mariano were to pitch that much, he’d have been done 8 years ago. But Mariano’s in a different era, and generally considered the best reliever of all time.

    The moral: not fair to cherry-pick standards from another era and apply them across generations; you really have to stay within the generational stovepipes.

    e.g. Are today’s NFL players worse than the old-timers because they don’t go both ways (offense/defense, not bi-sexual)?

  289. DAVE January 2nd, 2009 at 10:06 pm

    Besides Don Larsen being the MVP for that game, I must share this with my Mom. I was 10 years old at the time at die hard Yankee fan. Those days, series games were day games on school days. I convinced my Mother to write a note to my teacher being sick (sick of school, lol). Anyways as I watched each exciting pitch and each and every inning, my Mother was ironing away and asked me, “is this something special”? I told her she is witnessing something special. As Mel Allen would say, “Man o man, what a game….

  290. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 10:43 pm

    CB
    January 2nd, 2009 at 8:39 pm
    “no way he could have held up to that kind of workload, so workload is another difference that makes it hard to compare pitchers from different eras.”

    True. Sandy Koufax threw 2324 innings in his career and Walter Johnson threw 5,915. (Pedro by the way has thrown 2800 innings in his career.)

    ————————————————————

    Oddly, Koufax’ arthritis in his elbow wasn’t the result of pitching. He said that he never had a twinge until the summer of 1962 when he slid into 2nd base and banged his elbow on the ground. He said it was never the same after that. It happened in early July and he missed all of August and most of September, losing his last 3 decisions in 4 starts. That’s when the arthritis started.

  291. GreenBeret7 January 2nd, 2009 at 10:52 pm

    Brian (Red Sox Fan)
    January 2nd, 2009 at 8:43 pm
    Randy 1 – just back from watching the 2004 ALCS on MLB Channel; the gift that keeps on giving.

    But, back to Koufax …. as I previously stated, the best I’ve ever seen. Here’s my “greatness” test: if martians land in the USA, and watch Koufax pitch, without even knowing what baseball is, they would conclude that he does whatever he’s doing better than anyone else does it.

    But his IP totals harken back to the “different era” argument. He started every 4 days, and finished his starts. It’s the way it was.

    Check Dick Raddatz’ totals from 1963 -1965. If Mariano were to pitch that much, he’d have been done 8 years ago. But Mariano’s in a different era, and generally considered the best reliever of all time.

    The moral: not fair to cherry-pick standards from another era and apply them across generations; you really have to stay within the generational stovepipes.

    e.g. Are today’s NFL players worse than the old-timers because they don’t go both ways (offense/defense, not bi-sexual)?

    ————————————————————

    In those four years (62-65), Radatz was the nastiest relief pitcher in history. Unbelivable. He was nastier than Gossage, Charleton, Myers and Dibble. Threw nothing but fastballs and sliders. Fasball reaching near 10 MPH. The only relief pitcher to put up those numbers was Mike Marsall in the 70s with the Dodgers and Twins.

  292. PAT M January 2nd, 2009 at 11:03 pm

    To close out my input on Sandy Koufax, just look at the lineups he faced….Just about every team had HOF’ers on them….People let’s not forget the abundance of great hitters back in the sixties…..The 500 hr club exploded during that decade…..His talent transcends time…

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