Arbitration call on Abreu proves correct
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 05, 2009 
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Remember when it was a surprise that the Yankees declined to offer arbitration to Bobby Abreu? There was much complaining that night. Turns out that Brian Cashman had the market figured out.
The dominos are falling and it’s clear that $17 million a year would have been a ridiculous price to pay for Abreu. Consider:
· Milton Bradley to the Cubs are three years and $30 million.
· Pat Burrell to the Rays for two years and $16 million, some of which he is donating to the team’s charity.
· Jason Giambi is close to accepting a one-year deal with the Athletics. If he gets more than $8 or $10 million, it’ll be a surprise. He will probably get much less.
It’s unclear where all this leaves Abreu. Or Adam Dunn for that matter. Never mind Garret Anderson. Every day off the calendar will bring a smart team some good bargains.
I’ll be surprised if the Yanks don’t take a look if the price for Dunn gets into the 7-8 mil a year range.
Cashman has a reason for everything!
What is going to sign him? Obvious teams with needs were Rays and Cubs, and they are both out of the market now. Bobby has to be upset about the timing of his FA.
I can’t imagine Pudge is going to get a decent offer either….
—-Has Bobby gotten any offers? It seems like this off season is the slowest in recent history. What is it 75% of the free agents are still available? We are only 40 some days till spring training!!!
—- What is the word on who is participating in the ridiculous WBC? Is it just Jeter and Alex? Hopefully all our new toys will be in Spring Training with the team.
—-Anyone know if I can buy a Tex t-shirt tomorrow?
looking
I wonder if we’ll see some interesting fa missing the first few months of the season looking to latch on with a team when someone goes down.
Why Dunn? Where could he possibly fit with this team being that the Yankees have a glut of OF and DH types as is.
The non-tender on Abreu was always a smart move, only an idiot would have complained about it. People seem to think offering arbitration and netting draft picks is a foregone conclusion, never mind that Abreu would have accepted.
Jennifer go to the Yankees store I am sure they will have them they had the CC and AJ ones the day of the press conference.
Pete you are joking about Pat donating to charity right. According to the Philly papers he was offered 2 for 22 mill by the Phillies back on October and he turned it down. Cashman sure read the market correctly but Pat’s agent certainly did not.
The lower prices are a bit upsetting knowing how much the Yankees have committed this offseason. There are so many quality players still out there, a team starting off from scratch could sign an all star team for $60M.
gayle
I’ve learned that Modells is much cheaper.
The arbitration hearing wouldn’t have happenned yet, so based on the current market I wonder if it’s possible an arbitrator could come up with a salary cut?
jeff-
But the caliber of players that we got would have been offered closer to what the Yankees did.
CC- it was thought that the offer from the brewers would have gone up. Plus I believe that an offer for 140 was close to being offered.
AJ- The Braves were right there offering close to what the Yankees did.
Tex- Soxs offered 170.
Jeff- I believe they can’t take a large pay cut through arbitration. Free agency is another story.
I am interested in learning more about mlb.tv to get the Yankees game over the internet next year. Specifically:
1) Are there any PVPs that can show the games?
The biggest cut a team can offer a player is 20%.
Not to mention Manny Ramirez too. He picked the wrong year to weasel out of Boston. He’s going to end up getting a lot less than he thought he was worth.
Serves him right.
let’s get in the way back machine and see what all of the geniuses here had to say about this:
“Unbelievable….I can’t wait to hear the explanation for this. I understand not offering Giambi and Pudge, but why not Bobby???”
“time for a new front-office.
completely unexcusable.”
“Heard they are citing the economy???
Cheap morons. Abreau move makes no sense!!!”
“WOW, that should say it all. The Yankees are acting like a small market team. WOW!!!!”
“I don’t understand how anyone can defend this.”
“I’ve always defended Cashman to the hilt, but if true, this is sheer idiocy. Who, in their right minds would think Abreu would accept arbitration when he can get a multi-year pact out of somebody.”
“cashman on crack, is that simple theo owns him”
“Both of these guys should be offered arbitration – Not giving abreu arbitration is absolutely idiotic. Abreu isnt likely to even accept and we are basically throwing away two high draft picks. Even if he did come back for 16 or 17 for one season – it would be a positive as no player of his caliber signs one year contracts these days. ”
“The Yankees FO moves do not fill me with confidence. A move like this starts making think that Cashman is TOO good a friend to the RS Theo.
Give me a break, this is about economics? Then take the chance for getting a draft pick and end up with a much lower payout when you let the player you didn’t want go.
Terrible move, again, Cashman. ”
and so on and so on…
LoHud continues to be the standard bearer for stupid, whiney overreacting fans.
but hey, at least we got SAMIAM!!!!!!
I know everyone wants to sign Andy Pettitte for the #4 spot in the rotation, but if he continues to turn his back on the $10+ mil being offered, i am of the thought of Jon Garland. His numbers are similar and i don’t think he’s looking at $10 mil. I haven’t seen his name mentioned much or what kind of deal he’s looking for, but he’ll give you 180-200 innings, pitch to a +/- 4 ERA and will be on the plus side of .500 winning pct. Having another lefty would be nice, but Garland, IMO would be a good fall back.
from Pete himself:
“The Yankees are acting a little small-market here. I can understand not wanting to bring Pettitte back at $16 million. But would a year of Abreu at $16 million or even $17 million be so awful?”
at least Pete can admit he was WRONG.
ghost- are those real quotes?
Dad, There’s a difference in getting MLBTV on your TV provider and getting MLB.com and watching it on the computer. On the internet, you’ll need a credit or debit card, and it costs $119.95. That’s for the full season. You get access to radio feeds and archived games and classic games. You also get mosaic, which gives you 6 split games at once and you can enlarge any game.
One thing to remember though, Veritek was offered arbitration, he still isn’t signed and he declined arbitration. While this may look like a good move by Cashman now, there is a very good chance that Bobby would have declined as well.
Bobby was a tough call, I would imagine, as his offense abilities is very good, though his defense has fallen off a cliff.
If Bobby were signed as a DH and spot OF player, he would be a decent pick up. Of course the money would be lower, but that is what happens with many players as they age.
I like the quotes, Ghost, but why no names attached?
That’s the problem with someone like Dunn. There’s no place to play him this year. Yeah, you can say “Trade Matsui”, but that ignores that he still can be a productive hitter, and there’s likely a limited market for him and his contract at this point in time.
However, given the expiring contracts to Matsui, Damon, and Nady after 2009, I wonder if Cash is checking out young OFs to possibly trade our bullpen surplus for.
will the idiots who accused the Yankees of acting like a small market team (right before they went out and netted Sabathia, Burnett, and Teix) PLEASE STEP FORWARD for a flogging.
And, how many of those quotes are your’s, Ghost? All…Half… one quarter?
I thought it was a mistake not offering Abreu arbitration.
Based on past free agency periods, it seemed like a no brainer he would turn it down and go for one last multi-year deal somewhere. We all knew the economy might be a factor, but I don’t think any of us really fully realized just how depressed the free agent market was gonna be.
That’s why we’re not GMs though. Obviously Cash knew what was coming this offseason and made the smart move.
Nick in SF
The quotes are bad enough why embarrass the people who posted them.
i am the walrus
January 5th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
One thing to remember though, Veritek was offered arbitration, he still isn’t signed and he declined arbitration. While this may look like a good move by Cashman now, there is a very good chance that Bobby would have declined as well.
Excellent point. It would have been bad if Abreu had accepted arbitration but we don’t know that he would have. Players always tend to think they’ll get their money, and my hunch is most would have misread the market and declined arbitration. If Abreu declined, we’d have a draft pick for him. It’s not cut and dry a good decision imo.
Anybody know how the Yankee lineup will shake out now with Teixiera is here. And also with the assumption that Gardner is our CF?
Damon, Jeter, Tex, ARod, Matsui, Posada, Cano, Nady, Gardner/Swisher?
OK Ghost elucidate. What blog should we have gone to? The blog that thought not offering arb to Abreu was a good idea?
Isnt there a time limit to when a player can accept arbitration? Like a 72 hour period?…If that is the case, then there is no way abreu and his agent would have been able to assume the market would have been this slow at the time the yankees did offer arbitration.
Also, one year at 17 mill for abreu isnt that bad for the yanks. the yanks should only be concerned about being tied up long term (such as AJ, tex)…Plus you can still trade abreu, or another outfielder/dh option if he did accept.
…not offering arbitration at that time was a bad move because abreu would have declined it, if it were offered.
Unless I’m wrong on the time table of accepting arbitration.
The move wasnt right at the time, it just happened to work out right.
Giving AJ 5 years wasnt the right move either, but it may end up looking okay…the point is, at the time, the risk/decision was not correct.
Much like in poker…you can make the right move and have it turn out wrong…or make the wrong move and have it turn out right…the point of all this is making right decisions and hoping those right decisions hold up.
Bob(The Original)
Based on past free agency, Abreu might have turned down arbitration before he realized he was screwed. I’m not so sure not offering arbitration was the right move yet. Bobby wanted a multi-year deal and probably would have turne it down.
“will the idiots who accused the Yankees of acting like a small market team (right before they went out and netted Sabathia, Burnett, and Teix) PLEASE STEP FORWARD for a flogging.”
Might want to watch what you wish for.
24 players were offered arbitration. Two accepted. -Two-. Darren Oliver and David Weathers. A couple of 38 year old relief pitchers. Compare that to a 34 year old outfielder with 6 consecutive 100 rbi seasons.
Cashman could have used a crystal ball to determine exactly how much interest the FA’s were going to draw. It wouldn’t have made this a better decision. The only question was whether Abreu foresaw how weak the market was going to be for him. Far worse FA’s did not and declined. This is not really surprising. Players are generally going to assume that a big payoff is waiting for them on the FA market.
If Abreu gave the Yanks clear indication that he really wanted to return, the decision makes sense. Otherwise, there was no reason to assume he’d have accepted arb.
“The quotes are bad enough why embarrass the people who posted them.”
I don’t know, to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable? But mostly for comedic value. Here’s what what I wrote at the time:
“Very, very shrewd move by Cashman for at least a couple reasons. First, I think Abreu would accept and we’d be stuck with him for another year at $17 million or so. I smell a collapse in the FA market after a few big fish are signed, and he won’t be worth that. Second, after we sign Tex AND AJ (that’s right, I think we’re going to sign both of them), not being saddled with Abreu could just leave some money in the bank for another big fish. That’s right, I’m talking about Teixeira. No, I’m not crazy. My gut tells me that the D.C. area teams won’t end up appealing to Tex that much, and I think the Angels and Red Sox will end up screwing up the negotiations. Then Cashman jumps in at the last minute, in deep stealth mode, and scoops up Tex. I think $180 million will get it done. Mark it down in ink, this will all happen! But only if Abreu isn’t offered arbitration. So well done, Cashman, you’re well on the way to a fantastic off-seson.”
Rumors were rampant throughout the game Abreu would have accepted arbitration. The Yankees were his first choice. At the time arbitration was offered, the industry knew the corner OF market was in freefall.
That’s why Cashman didn’t want to roll the dice in this situation.
The extra money led to getting Tex.
I know some are loathe to give Cashman any credit for anything.
However, in this case, he was right and his detractors were wrong.
One thing to remember though, Veritek was offered arbitration, he still isn’t signed and he declined arbitration. While this may look like a good move by Cashman now, there is a very good chance that Bobby would have declined as well.
———————————————————-
That’s true, but look how much trouble he is having finding a deal without the signing team having to give up a draft pick.
I think it’s going to be fascinating watching how this market plays out the rest of the way. Could some of these guys even end up holding out until after the season begins hoping there’s an injury somewhere and a team panics?
Although I didn’t think so at the time, it certainly does look like Cashman made the right call not taking the risk.
“ghost- are those real quotes?”
yes.
“And, how many of those quotes are your’s, Ghost? All…Half… one quarter?”
good one. all you have to do is go back to December 1 and look for yourself.
i’m not making this up.
go read through the threads when the announced they weren’t offering arbitration.
Nick in SF,,,You were definately in the minority on everything you wrote….No wonder you’re such a good handicapper……
Nick (the clairvoyant) in SF
sign mark kotsay for a couple years, he would be a great addition for us
I believe Paul Byrd also accepted arb from the Sox.
tarheelyank,
the game for the heels yesterday sucked, i could barely understand how a team w/ so much talent could lost to BC. im from NC, and i had to hear it from the duke fans
“I believe Paul Byrd also accepted arb from the Sox.”
no, he is considering “retirement”.
Sadly, Pete deleted by post from that thread because in the next paragraph I made a joke about blog sponsors Lace and Stiletto and they complained.
“Cashman could have used a crystal ball to determine exactly how much interest the FA’s were going to draw. ”
or maybe….just maybe….we are not privvy to every single conversation that happens between GMs and between GMs and other agents?
it’s not at all possible that Cashman had enough information to decide that there wasn’t going to be a ton of interest in Abreu??
CASHMAN HAS MORE INFORMATION THAN WE DO.
accept it.
Pete does a great job getting us info, but he doesn’t know EVERYTHING.
it’s just like all the people who couldn’t believe we didn’t sign Sheets instead of Burnett….ooops, Sheets is a lot more injured than we knew. and the Yankees (and every other team) knew it.
This was what I said on that lovely day in December.
Brace yourselves for some real insight
“S.A.- CC Watch 2008: Making some Yankee fans go bonkers December 1st, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Nobody? Whoa”
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....ent-600034
and yes…looking back…the quotes that Ghost posted here are real
Josh,
About all you can say it’s the ACC. Anybody can beat anybody. Rice really kicks our butt. As far as the dook fans just wait till feb 11th.
# Brew Crew News December 2nd, 2008 at 11:32 am
I think the Yankees are clearing room for the possible landing of Sabathia or Burnett. I, as a Brewers fan, know the Brewers have no chance, especially with Scott Boras. I believe the Yankees will land Sabathia and the payroll clear will help.
Mr or Mrs. cleo was on the thread.
Andy Pettitte Rejects Yankees’ Offer, Making Return Uncertain
A reunion seemed inevitable at the start of the off-season, but now it is uncertain. Pettitte has rejected the Yankees’ one-year, $10 million offer, according to a person with knowledge of the negotiations, and there is no standing offer for now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01.....38;emc=rss
Bye Andy loved ya, but don’t let he door hit you on the way out. Go sign that big offer you have on the table. You know the one, the 3/36 offer. Go on, it’s okay. Oh that’s right, we all know it doesn’t exist.
If he thinks he is going to get a lot of fan support pulling this garbage he has another thing coming.
Bye Andy?
Just bring in Garland or someone for veteran depth. Maybe even Freddy Garcia if he’s healthy
Anybody that spends that much time looking through old posts to retype or cut and paste comments so they can point fingers, while they change their SN, must have a real need to make themselves feel better. Sad. Who cares…nearly everybody was either wrong or misread their options….all except Brian Cashman.
Bobby costing 17 million being called “outrageous” is the same reason that Tex’s contract is insanely outrageous. If players like Burrell are getting 8million for 2 seasons while putting up the same numbers as Tex, how can you justify 20 million + for Tex?
I’m a fan of the guy and think he’s better than Burrell and Abreu, but this is all the more reason that we overpaid for Tex. We overpaid for CC. We overpaid for Burnett. While they were all good signings and the investment will pay off, we still overpaid.
Open mouth insert foot..
“Obviously anyone else would say, ‘I’ll go wherever I want to,’ because people want to try to get the most money,” Pettitte said before a Yankees-Angels game in Anaheim, Calif. “But, I mean, I’m not going anywhere, you know what I’m saying? The Yankees know me enough, it’s not like I’m going to hold out. I guess if I had spent all my money or whatever, it might be different. But it’s not about that, really, anymore.”
“it’s not at all possible that Cashman had enough information to decide that there wasn’t going to be a ton of interest in Abreu??”
That’s not the question. The question is whether Abreu would have decided this. Years (including this one) of arb period history suggest that he wouldn’t have. If he decided at the time that he would accept any arb offer and he communicated this to the Yanks, Cashman made the right decision. Otherwise, I still think Bobby would have declined.
Andy’s a jerk..
Steve Balboni
January 5th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
“I know everyone wants to sign Andy Pettitte for the #4 spot in the rotation, but if he continues to turn his back on the $10+ mil being offered, i am of the thought of Jon Garland. His numbers are similar and i don’t think he’s looking at $10 mil. I haven’t seen his name mentioned much or what kind of deal he’s looking for, but he’ll give you 180-200 innings, pitch to a +/- 4 ERA and will be on the plus side of .500 winning pct. Having another lefty would be nice, but Garland, IMO would be a good fall back.”
Very few people on this blog would favor Garland who will get a 3 year contract, and be blocking near ready minor leaguers.
Pettitte best fit.
I don’t want to hear anyone place any blame on Andy’s agents. Andy is a grown man. He can tell his agents that he wants to accept the Yankees offer and that’s it. He can go against their advise, if he truly wants to pitch at the new stadium.
watching these clips of home runs…and watching Mantle hit a 475 foot opposite field homer makes you shake your head and wonder just how good he really could have been…IF ONLY….
I remain intrigued by Oliver Perez if we can get him at a bargain. Can’t you see him thriving at Yankee Stadium? He usually does…
Yankee Trader
If the report is correct, Andy made it clear, he doesn’t want to pitch for the Yankees.
Confucius
He is still looking for a big pay day. Don’t think you’ll get him at a bargain basement rate.
MLB TV now showing story of Ruth, most wins as a pitcher before age 23 except for Bob Feller. If CC doesn’t succeed as a pitcher, he can be our DH!!!!!!!
Well here’s to hoping the Fab 4 can hold up and we’re only patching that 5th spot with Phranchise/IPK.
“Pettitte has rejected the Yankees’ one-year, $10 million offer, according to a person with knowledge of the negotiations, and there is no standing offer for now.”
The key info there is
“according to a person with knowledge of the negotiations”
There is no official quote from Andy or the Yankees. Until there is – it’s all just more posturing – which could be coming from either side.
take a flier on Sheets anyone?
I really didn’t like Oliver Perez as a Met….because he was a Met but he is a big game pitcher. When the pressure was on he delivered, especially in the Bronx. For the right price he is another young arm in the rotation.
Sounds crazy, but John Smoltz.. Seriously, why not.. He’ll eat up innings and would be a great fill in for a year
Pettitte rejected! what the…
http://zellspinstripeblog.com/.....10m-offer/
“He is still looking for a big pay day.”
Once Lowe is signed, that’s one more team that won’t be involved for pitching. I don’t see how much of a market he’s going to have.
I guess I could see the Red Sox looking into him. A Yankee-killing lefty would be tempting to them, and the thought of them snatching him up cheap scares me.
Jennifer-
What report about Pettitte not wanting to come back to the Yankees?
Aaron,
I actually wouldn’t mind Smoltz, but he’s coming back from surgery and who knows how will he perform the aftermath of the surgery.
Well he also walks the ball park. The Red Soxs already have one pitcher on their staff who does that.
yankee trader- According to the article he declined the Yankees offer. So he doesn’t want to come back.
Please remind me, why don’t the Mets want to keep Perez?
I hear ya Ed.. Just a thought, and would be great to see a vet like that towards the end.. Offer Moose money to come back for another year!
Nick- Cause he stinks against every team in baseball but the Yankees?
- He walks the ballpark?
- When he loses it, HE LOSES IT?
Inconsistency, walks….
Now this is funny
http://johnsterling.blogspot.c.....-save.html
Aaron(the better Aaron)
I’m going to see him in a few weeks, I’ll let him know we want him back.
Seriously anyone have any good questions you want me to ask Moose.
I was thinking of asking him if he was getting the itch seeing the rotation we have.
Andy is a bit foolish IMO. In a market where middle of the line-up sluggers(Ibanez, Burrell, Bradley) are getting 10 mil or less, Andy should have taken the 10 guaranteed. I hope Andy realizes that he pitched terribly down the stretch and that 10 million dollars when some people are living on the street in our country is more than fair.
Perez is too inconsistent. Pitching wise the man is a roller coaster.
No, according to the NY Times article an unnamed person who says they have knowledge of the situation said Andy rejected the offer. Why not wait until the whole story plays out before you indict Andy for a crime he may not be guilty of.
Gayle that is great!
“Well he also walks the ball park.”
Unfortunately, we never see that side of him. He seems to keep his act together whenever he’s pitching in a big game (any Subway Series game for instance). So I’d guess the issue with his walks is more a mechanical breakdown than a mental one. Don’t forget that he’s only 27. Jorge/Jose and Eiland would have to keep a close eye on his starts. But he’s got front end stuff and he’s big game. At the right price, he could be a great fit.
Found it in the NY times, written by Tyler Kepner.
If Smoltz can pitch, and Braves can’t resign him, he’d be another #1 pitching in the #4 spot!
If Sheets wants to prove his health with a one year contract, then he’d be worth it. Poor Brewers- what would they get our number 4 draft pick?
Welcome back to the game OSU
Confucius
That is the key ‘at the right price’. Don’t forget Boras is his agent. He will wait until Feb 20 if he thinks he can get more $$
Who cares about Pettitte. He has shown that he is exactly like his buddy Clemens. I guess everything he said last year about coming back meant nothing in the end..He let it stand in the way of $2-3m. I hope he knows that in this market he isn’t worth anything over $8m. The Astros or Dodgers won’t give him more then the Yanks were offering and he is lucky if he gets $10m from them. The Yanks should try and sign Garland. They could probably get him for pretty cheap. Maybe 2 years and $8m per.
For a #5 his numbers are okay. He consistently pitches almost 200 innings a season.
I’d take a flier on him at the right price.
“Perez is too inconsistent. Pitching wise the man is a roller coaster.”
But he’d be a fifth starter at (theoretically) about the same money they’d be paying Pettitte. What’s the alternative right now? Phil Hughes. Just as inconsistent. Cheaper, sure, but also with a far shorter ML track record.
Very funny, gayle. Folks might enjoy this too:
http://johnsterling.blogspot.c.....et-of.html
I am not quite sure I am getting Andy’s thinking on this. Although I do understand not wanting to take a paycut he was getting paid as a #2 starter for the past 2 years. He isnow not a #2 so he needs to look at what #4 and 5 are getting. Randy Johnson who had a better year than Andy last year I believe just got 8 million from the Giants. Moose I belive got 11 in his final2 seasons with the Yankees. Are you telling m that Andy is balking over 1 million dollars.
Why would I not be suprised to see him retire if he rejects the Yankees I just dont see him starting over in a new city away fromthe family at this point in his career.
Maybe 2/16? He made 12 last season.
I want the Yanks to get a 5th because i wanna see Hughes in the minors. he’s still young.. I mean jesus he’s the same age as me.. lol
Perez is simply not an option – I don’t understand why so many people are for that. The Yankees are not going to lock up a 5th starter for multiple years when that would block their kids for years……..
I wonder now if the Yanks might sign Sheets (if they could get him to go for it) for 1 year – even if he doesn’t make it through the season, it could buy time for Phil, etc…….
Thoughts?
**I’ve had enough of Andy “I only want to pitch for the Yankees” Pettitte. He was the Yankees’ best option, but I’m glad they stood firm. They will find someone
Pet must have had his HGH solution yesterday. We’ll wait till that wears off. Screw you Pettitte
The Yankees have to sign Lowe now. He’s a much better pitcher then Pettite and it would make the rivalry better. Not to mention it would make the mets sign Randy Wolf who is not even close to as good of a pitcher as Lowe. This is coming from a Long Island yankee fan where most fans on long island are mets fans so i’m sure Cashman is not thinking about what the mets are doing in his offseason plans.
But he’d be a fifth starter at (theoretically) about the same money they’d be paying Pettitte. What’s the alternative right now? Phil Hughes. Just as inconsistent. Cheaper, sure, but also with a far shorter ML track record.
——————————————-
But that’s the main problem with Perez-the money.
I’d rather deal with the cheaper and inconsistent Phil Hughes and friends. Or if another option presents itself.
Pete’s blog is up for an award. Lets vote for him/it/us…
http://2008.weblogawards.org/p.....orts-blog/
My sign Derick Lowe post was directly related to ANDY PETTITE REJECTING THE YANKEES 1 YEAR 10 MILLION DOLLAR OFFER.
I find it funny that pete posted this as did river ave blues and a number of other sites praising cash for not giving abreu arbitration. And why? Because Burrel, Bradley and Giambi arent making even close to that. BUT lets go over a couple of things that the writers are seemingly overlooking:
1. Burrell signed a two year deal and Bradley signed a three year deal. We would have had Bobby for one year at a high price granted but the key to this is that it would have been one year – so if bobby got seriously injured or started in a steep decline he would be gone within one season and we wouldnt be stuck with him the following year. Like cashman has preached the large majority of his career – one year deals are VERY GOOD. They limit risk so these signings arent nessecarily better than bobby for one year and 17 mil.
2. Milton Bradley is signing a three year deal and he has all of one good season under his belt after being in the majors for 8 years – How does that warrant three years? This deal is absolutely horrendous so comparing it to abreu accepting arbitration is not really a good comparison. You could say the same about burrell – he has never made an all star game and the phillies fans absolutely despise him which tells me he wasnt all that great of a player. His career avg is 257 and his career obp is 367 – those numbers arent all that good. He is significantly younger than abreu and almosted guaranteed to his 30 homers next season but he is never struck out less than 120 times in a season and hasnt had over 300 total bases since 2002. Giambi while a good player is a gigantic injury risk. Offensively, bobby abreu is significantly better than all three of these players without question. He has a career obp of 405 and career avg of 300. He will hit his team 20 homers and 40 doubles next year and have at least 500 at bats. hE WILL also steal his team over 20 bases. Abreu also rarely strikes out doing so 109 times in over 600 at bats last season. My point is none of these are apt comparisons to bobby – he is just a flatout far better offensive producer and has a much better health track record than any of these other players – therefore, doesnt he deserve more money next season?
3. My final point is that Pat Burrell was granted arbitration by the phillies for 10 mil next season – he declined. This tells me that burrell clearly overestimated the market he would have as he signed only a couple of months later and is only making 8 mil next season – 2 mil less than he could have received if he just accepted the arbitration deal. And guess who wins in all of this? The phillies by getting a draft pick from the rays. WHO IS TO SAY THAT ABREU WOULDNT HAVE DONE THE SAME? I guess pete can read minds because apparently he knew that abreu would have accepted if granted arbitration even though abreu didnt know any of this was going to happen at the time. My feeling is that like burrell, abreu would have declined 17 mil for one year hoping to get similar money for more years. Of course, i COULD be wrong about that but abreu was a 20-20 guy last year – he also had 100 rbis and 100 runs while putting up another solid obp of 371 and 39 doubles. He also still stand as one of the best in pitches per plate appearance among active players and walks more than almost any one in the game. I think with that kind of track record along with the solid numbers and over 600 at bats he put up last season – he may have wanted more than a one year deal while he still can. Who wouldnt want to cash in at his age with his talent still intact? I know i would.
So to me, these posts are completely jumping the gun here. Lets at least wait and see what abreu actually gets and lets keep in mind that bobby had no clue that the market would be this bad for the outfield free agents. bURREL clearly did not have a good read on the market and im sure abreu didnt either. While 17 mil was certainly too much to pay for abreu in hindsight – hindsight is 20-20 and no one really knows what would have happened if abreu was granted arb in the first place. IMO, he would have rejected arb and the yanks would have a couple more solid draft picks. But whether i am right or wrong, this post clearly could have waited until after we learn what abreu actually gets before once again proclaiming that cashman is a genius.
Sorry, but, I’ll wait for word from Pettitte/agents or the Yankee front office….you know…somebody with a name that actually has the authority….like Cashman.
“Maybe 2/16? He made 12 last season.”
2/16 might be a tad conservative. I could see it taking a third or fourth year. A lot depends on what Lowe gets and whether his others suitors turn to options like Garland and Wolf first. You could be nearing the end of January and he’s got no big suitors left, so we can scoop him up for around 3/30. 2/20ish would be a steal; there’s no way you could argue against giving him that when we had 1/10 on the table for Andy.
“The Yankees are not going to lock up a 5th starter for multiple years when that would block their kids for years……..”
I’m not so sure they’re thinking too much about the kids at this point. They’re more in the ‘you can never have too much pitching’ mentality.
Smoltz would never leave the Braves. But heck if he wants one last hurrah and a shot at a title, Mr. Smoltz come on down!
“Turns out that Brian Cashman had the market figured out.”
Easy big fella. He still gave Sabathia $60M (that’s $60,000,000.00) more than any other team was offering, and disabled list certainty Burnett twice what 200-inning lock Lowe seems likely to get. Let’s not give him the shrewd-shopper of the year award just yet.
Also, just scanned through some of the Sam I Am backlash. Man, nothing stirs up rage on here like some well-deserved Cash-bashing. Of course factually challenged Sam left out some of the Boy Genius’s biggest f-ups, like:
1. The obscene 7 year contract (with a $5M option for an eighth!) that he dumped on Giambalco when nobody else was offering more than 5.
2. His failure to lock-up Pettitte early in the ’03 offseason, followed by his amateurish last minute offer.
3. His decision not to aggressively court Clemens, or even offer him arbitration, in the ’03 offseason when he still had something left, followed by the king’s ransom (and embarassing “family plan”) he gifted him in ’07 when he was running on fumes.
4. His failure in the ’03 off season (that was a particularly crappy year) to get a concession on A-Fraud’s opt-out when he had Boras and him at the altar with nowhere else to go. That omission alone might end up costing us $100M.
But of course all of those mistakes came from the Tampa Mafia.
Again, signing Derek Lowe means the Yankees would have no room for any of their young pitchers. Is that what you really want? The Yankees are going to go try and find a cheap, servicable starter to try and get them through at least 1/2 a year….I’ve heard Mark Mulder’s name brought up.
“I’d rather deal with the cheaper and inconsistent Phil Hughes and friends. Or if another option presents itself.”
But, again, you could be looking at the possibility of Perez at the same money that was being offered to Pettitte. Even if you want to go with the ‘Yanks have a budget’ mentality, that was money they were going to spend anyway. He’d also take the rotation slot Pettitte would have occupied. Let Hughes develop in the minors some more and stand by as a good sixth starter.
Good free agents are signing cheap right now. If you can snatch up a pitcher with the upside Perez has for a bargain, you don’t pass on the opportunity for a kid who hasn’t shown much at the ML level thus far.
Wow Texas
wow this really shocking even after what the yanks did for him wow andy i rally hough ull aceept the 10million u hae so much money and ur gonna do that to the yanks wow
nice post, randyhater I am. You forgot the part about how Cashman has ruined the future by putting Joba in the rotation.
lowe woudn be a bad number four cuz he kan give u innings and could provide u with 12+ wins as a number four aint bad at all
No one should ever say signing big name free agents is blocking the kids just like no one should ever say that the yanks wont have any injuries next season – The kid will get their shot if and when they deserve a shot. If hughes is pitching lights out ball in triple A for a couple of months he will be called up within two months or so of opening day guaranteed and the same goes for kennedy. bURNETT is a calamity waiting to happen and wang is coming off a major injury. Pettitte (if re-signed) is getting old and was completely ineffective the second half of last season and CC has pitched an absurd number of innings over the past 2 seasons. And lets not forget that joba can only pitch around 150 innings next season and that probably includes the playoffs. There is no way the starting rotation is the five of them all season – if we are extremely lucky, hughes will replace joba at some point when he starts getting up there in innings and everyone else stays in the rotation. The more likely scenario is that we will have an injury or two and both hughes and kennedy will be called up to start in the majors as Im sure will a couple of other starters like aceves.
The Yanks aren’t getting Perez for a 1 year 10 mil contract. He either pitches lights out, or he pitches like the lights have been turned out and he doesn’t know where the plate is. Forget him.
Sorry Confucius-I still want no part of Ollie Perez.
Unless he somehow came dirt cheap..I guess-and I just don’t see that happening.
@randyhater:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
“According to Tyler Kepner of the New York Times, Andy Pettitte rejected the Yankees’ one-year, $10MM offer. The Yanks could certainly find a useful free agent arm for a similar price, or else just go with internal options. But one more veteran in the rotation could go a long way.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASskQc1_kj8
I still think we should gamble on Sheets for 1 year if his physical comes up clean.
Randyhater,
I guess you didnt get the memo – All of the smart and lucky moves (chacon, small, etc.) were cashmans brilliance leaking through while all of the huge blunders were all George’s fault. Cash is a genius and can do no wrong.
This blog is for the most part brain-washed into thinking that cash is the best thing to happen to this world since baseball was invented. Talking badly about cashman is usually followed by a good amount of personal attacks and ignorant, child-like arguments. iT really is funny sometimes.
I’ll be the first to say that I wanted Cashman to offer them arbitration based on what he said about the non-guaranteed contracts. I still haven’t been able to find any credible sources that explain the process of cutting a player on an arbitration contract.
Still, I don’t think you can say that Abreu would have taken arbitration on December 7th based on the contracts given out on January 5th. Also, the idea that the he could have only gotten an 20% pay cut is not true. That would only the case for players under control by the Yankees like Melky Cabrera. The Yankees could have submitted a $10mil offer to the arbitrator if they wanted.
Dave, where exactly will the kids pitch (and I’m not just talking next year) if all spots are locked up for multiple years? No thanks – not interested in signing any vet for a multi-year deal.
I mentioned Sheets as a possibility, but his medicals are obviously bad – there hasn’t been a hint of buzz about him.
I find it funny that pete posted this as did river ave blues and a number of other sites praising cash for not giving abreu arbitration. And why? Because Burrel, Bradley and Giambi arent making even close to that. BUT lets go over a couple of things that the writers are seemingly overlooking:
1. Burrell signed a two year deal and Bradley signed a three year deal. We would have had Bobby for one year at a high price granted but the key to this is that it would have been one year – so if bobby got seriously injured or started in a steep decline he would be gone within one season and we wouldnt be stuck with him the following year. Like cashman has preached the large majority of his career – one year deals are VERY GOOD. They limit risk so these signings arent nessecarily better than bobby for one year and 17 mil.
2. Milton Bradley is signing a three year deal and he has all of one good season under his belt after being in the majors for 8 years – How does that warrant three years? This deal is absolutely horrendous so comparing it to abreu accepting arbitration is not really a good comparison. You could say the same about burrell – he has never made an all star game and the phillies fans absolutely despise him which tells me he wasnt all that great of a player. His career avg is 257 and his career obp is 367 – those numbers arent all that good. He is significantly younger than abreu and almosted guaranteed to his 30 homers next season but he is never struck out less than 120 times in a season and hasnt had over 300 total bases since 2002. Giambi while a good player is a gigantic injury risk. Offensively, bobby abreu is significantly better than all three of these players without question. He has a career obp of 405 and career avg of 300. He will hit his team 20 homers and 40 doubles next year and have at least 500 at bats. hE WILL also steal his team over 20 bases. Abreu also rarely strikes out doing so 109 times in over 600 at bats last season. My point is none of these are apt comparisons to bobby – he is just a flatout far better offensive producer and has a much better health track record than any of these other players – therefore, doesnt he deserve more money next season?
3. My final point is that Pat Burrell was granted arbitration by the phillies for 10 mil next season – he declined. This tells me that burrell clearly overestimated the market he would have as he signed only a couple of months later and is only making 8 mil next season – 2 mil less than he could have received if he just accepted the arbitration deal. And guess who wins in all of this? The phillies by getting a draft pick from the rays. WHO IS TO SAY THAT ABREU WOULDNT HAVE DONE THE SAME? I guess pete can read minds because apparently he knew that abreu would have accepted if granted arbitration even though abreu didnt know any of this was going to happen at the time. My feeling is that like burrell, abreu would have declined 17 mil for one year hoping to get similar money for more years. Of course, i COULD be wrong about that but abreu was a 20-20 guy last year – he also had 100 rbis and 100 runs while putting up another solid obp of 371 and 39 doubles. He also still stand as one of the best in pitches per plate appearance among active players and walks more than almost any one in the game. I think with that kind of track record along with the solid numbers and over 600 at bats he put up last season – he may have wanted more than a one year deal while he still can. Who wouldnt want to cash in at his age with his talent still intact? I know i would.
So to me, these posts are completely jumping the gun here. Lets at least wait and see what abreu actually gets and lets keep in mind that bobby had no clue that the market would be this bad for the outfield free agents. bURREL clearly did not have a good read on the market and im sure abreu didnt either. While 17 mil was certainly too much to pay for abreu in hindsight – hindsight is 20-20 and no one really knows what would have happened if abreu was granted arb in the first place. IMO, he would have rejected arb and the yanks would have a couple more solid draft picks. But whether i am right or wrong, this post clearly could have waited until after we learn what abreu actually gets before once again proclaiming that cashman is a genius.
If Sheet’s medical reports were clean, he’d have been signed by now. Almost no team is admitting to more than casual interest in him. That says something about GMs deep concerns.
Betsy,
Sheets records are no worse than Burnetts laundry list of injuries and i mentioned in my original post how the kids fit in for now. I have no interest in signing an oli perez or someone over the age of 35 except possibly pettitte but i dont think any of our current signings (burnett and CC) are going to end up blocking any of the kids. And if we sign sheets for 2 years, he wont block them either. Injuries happen every single season like clock-work. Hughes and kennedy just need to jump in when the first duck falls. And joba is certainly going to need to be replaced in the rotation at some point unless we want his arm to fall off.
Dave, nobody thought much of your long winded essay the first time…a second posting 20 minutes later any more interesting.
I also dont think sheets next year is much more of a risk than pettitte considering pettitte’s age, awful second half and nagging shoulder concerns.
“The Yanks aren’t getting Perez for a 1 year 10 mil contract.”
No one’s suggesting they are. I’m suggesting they could get get him at the same annual salary. I’ve got no problem committing 2-4 years to a 27 year old pitcher with his kind of stuff.
“He either pitches lights out, or he pitches like the lights have been turned out and he doesn’t know where the plate is.”
The same can be said for Hughes, only we’ve seen Hughes pitch lights out one time in his major league career, and that was before the two injuries. Perez may be inconsistent, but he’s far more reliable right now than Hughes. Plus you don’t have to worry about an innings limit. Hughes needs more time in the minors any way you slice it.
GB – I didnt know you spoke for the entire blog. And the second post was a mistake but thanks for your opinion.
According to Tyler Kepner of the New York Times, Andy Pettitte rejected the Yankees’ one-year, $10MM offer. The Yanks could certainly find a useful free agent arm for a similar price, or else just go with internal options. But one more veteran in the rotation could go a long way.
————————————–
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASskQc1_kj8
Dave, The bottom line is The club doesn’t need Bobby Abreu, or am I missing something ….Both he and Giambi have been replaced…..What’s your point then ?????
Dave:
The Yankees were given indications at the time that Abreu would accept. Bobby very much wanted to stay in NY. His agent, Peter Greenberg, is based in NYC. Cashman does not guess at major decisions.
Meanwhile, are we paying you by the word?
Where the heck is my post ?
The difference between Sheets and Burnett is that Sheets was hurt last year and it was in his forearm and shoulder. Burnett hasn’t had any such issues since getting the scar tissue cleaned up from his TJ surgery.
I agree with GB7.
dave-
Plaese shorten your posts, there just too much, I know you have a lot to say, at least hit the enter key.
GB
Does abreu have serious injury risks because he is not signed yet and doesnt seem to have alot of interest? Is dunn a major injury risk because you can say the same about him – havent heard hardly any rumors about dunn this off season but he has almost no risk attached to him. i DONT think other teams interest in sheets is an accurate reflection of his actual medical records as much as it is a reflection of the perception that he is a major risk.
no. 27,
I’m puzzled by that too (cutting a guy who’s accepted arbitration). Pete’s post of a few months(?) ago had Cashman seemingly saying that you could offer a guy arbitration and then cut him in Spring Training and only be on the hook for, I believe, a month’s salary. Yet I can’t ever remember seeing that happen.
Anyone know the deal on that?
“Plaese shorten your posts, there just too much, I know you have a lot to say, at least hit the enter key.”
this is why the Enter key is our best friend.
Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees)
January 6th, 2009 at 12:04 am
Where the heck is my post ?
————————————————————
It was eaten by Dave’s posts.
Lowe would not be a good fit as the Yankees have no infield defense up the middle.
Why not just roll the dice with Aceves and Hughes at the 5 spot – they went to war last year with Kennedy and Hughes at the back of the rotation.
If players like Burrell are getting 8million for 2 seasons while putting up the same numbers as Tex, how can you justify 20 million + for Tex?
Umm maybe because Burrell isn’t in the same class as Teix. Teix can is a great defender at a more crucial position and hits for average.
Pete – i wish you were because I could use the money.
Thank you for the clarification. I would think at his age bobby would want one last payday which would mean multiple years but i guess he really loved NY. Although I am not exactly sure why considering how happy the fans in this blog seemed to be to see him go.
“My final point is that Pat Burrell was granted arbitration by the phillies for 10 mil next season – he declined. This tells me that burrell clearly overestimated the market he would have as he signed only a couple of months later and is only making 8 mil next season – 2 mil less than he could have received if he just accepted the arbitration deal. And guess who wins in all of this? The phillies by getting a draft pick from the rays.”
dave, the Phillies didn’t offer Burrell arbitration.
“It was eaten by Dave’s posts.”
LOL burn.
I agree Pete that Cashman was correct on identifying the market.
But I’m still not convinced that Abreu would have accepted arbitration. Look at Boras and Varitek. He’s stuck right now with a catcher who hits .220 and is 37 years old. Abreu is 34 and still has prime production. Can’t see his agent steering him to accept arbitration after looking at his numbers.
“they went to war last year with Kennedy and Hughes at the back of the rotation.”
… and how did that work out?
If the Pettitte reports are correct and this is the last interaction between the two parties, I, for one, would love to see either Jon Garland or Oliver Perez slotted in @ #5. Garland is a young guy who has pitched his career in the A.L. Despite a high ERA, which can be tolerated from a #5 starter, he eats innings and I’ve never heard any extraneous negative comments regarding him. Perez has a propensity to lose it at times, but can eat innings and comes with an added bonus of stepping up to the competition. Either way, we need a #5 who can guarantee 185+ innings.
GB7,,,,,Very funny…You’ve been hanging out with Nick in SF ???
GB –
Sheets injury was a tear in a forearm muscle – it had nothing to do with his shoulder and it was after 200 innings of work. Burnett was on the dl 10 times but because he wasnt injured last season ppl think he is far less risky. That is why i said perception is playing a huge role in this whole thing – in reality, i think both pitchers are of a similar risk
Pat,
The point was these 3 signings are no a clear indication that Cashman’s decision was correct. iF AS PETE STATED ABOVE – bobby told or implied to the yanks that he would accept fine although i dont remember hearing that before but if the current signings of inferior players are being used as justification for this decision than i dont agree.
My post had little to do with the yanks actually picking up abreu next season and had absolutely nothing to do with the yanks picking up giambi next season so i DUNNO where you got that from
Peter does a credible job in providing his constituency with the raw facts. His problem, however, is when he ventures into the speculative realm as he allows his predilections to govern his judgment calls.
PAT M
January 6th, 2009 at 12:16 am
GB7,,,,,Very funny…You’ve been hanging out with Nick in SF ???
————————————————————
I enrolled in his course on snappy remarks…or as it’s better known: Being A Smart Azs 101.
jOE – Sorry about that. Someone on the fan (im pretty sure it was francesa was talking for a good ten mins about burrell being offered arb by the phillies and declining just to make less elsewhere. Guess that was wrong info.
You do him proud GB7….True wit…
“Sheets injury was a tear in a forearm muscle – it had nothing to do with his shoulder and it was after 200 innings of work.”
On MLB Network the other night when talking about Sheets, I believe it was Joe Magrane who said that teams are backing away from Sheets because his medical reports are not good on his shoulder.
If the Yanks had offered Abreu arbitration and he accepted, not only would they have overpaid, they would have been stuck with an extra player. They had only 3 positions for Matsui, Damon, Abreu and Nady. Maybe Abreu is a little stronger than some of the other three, but they were signed for 2009 and he wasn’t. The simplest solution was naturally to let Abreu go.
The Yanks are stuck with a similar problem now, having signed Swisher before they knew they’d get Tex. Chances are they will not get much of a return if they trade one of their extraneous players. Or, if they keep them all, they’ll be paying someone a lot of money to sit on the bench.
dave, no problem, but that’s what you get for taking what Francessa says as the truth. Facts and information are not his strengths.
Joe, if that is true those are new reports. His original injury was a tear in a forearm muscle. This shoulder stuff is just coming up recently/
PAT M
January 6th, 2009 at 12:27 am
You do him proud GB7….True wit…
————————————————————
LMAO…At least half the time. I had a good teacher, though.
Joe
I am starting to realize that but that is a pretty glaring mistake to make. I am not positive it was francesa but i know it was on the FAN and I know it was today. And when i heard it, i did think it was very strange because i thought the phillies couldnt wait to be rid of burrell.
“It was eaten by Dave’s posts.”
Nick is rubbing off on ya.
David,
Couple of things about your post. First, matsui is dhing and no longer plays the OF – the other 3 are three spots for three outfielders. The problem with that of course, is none of them could play centerfield very well. Second, I dont think or atleast i didnt think until petes post above that offering him arbitration necessarily meant that abreu would be on the yanks next year. Third, this problem you speak of is actually a stregnth – swisher would make an excellent bench player and doesnt make all that much money. yOU ARE right though that if they trade swish they wouldnt get anything back for him but nady may bring back some value.
“phillies couldnt wait to be rid of burrell.”
That is true because they didn’t like the fact that Burrell disappeared for large parts of the 2nd half the past 2 seasons. The Phillies owners are also historically stingy with money, and I’m sure right now Ruben Amaro has a lot to answer for since he signed Ibanez for more than what Burrell got. The killer for the Phillies will be when Hamels and Howard take them to the cleaners in arbitration.
Ill admit it i was wrong on this issue i didnt like not offering arbitration.
at least with perez there is a chance for improvement if he can cut down on his walks.
he is much younger & much better than pettitte,not even close right now.
pettittes & perez have the same whip but perez has a much better baa & gives up way fewer hits per innings pitched.
if perez could reduce his walks to a respectable level he would be an elite pitcher going by his other numbers.
yes he walks the ballpark but players get on base at the same 1.40 walks & hits per inning as pettitte.era is not that important & is overated imo.
perez would be a perfect # 4 unless you wan’t to sign lowe,sheets or make a trade wich i think are all out of the question except lowe.
pettitte is not worth 10 million & would of hurt this team in 09 even as a 4th starter.6 or 7 million is what he is worth the way the market is now.
wakefield got 3 or 4 million & has much better numbers even though pettitte is younger & a little more durable.
payers are taking huge pay cuts in 09.
i don’t mind the cc & tex contract but burnett is seriously overpaid.
i would look at perez if i were cashman.he is 27 yrs old & a lefty.if he cut his walks in half he would be a number 2 pitcher.
Andy it’s not about the money Pettitte:
Obviously anyone else would say, ‘I’ll go wherever I want to,’ because people want to try to get the most money,” Pettitte said before a Yankees-Angels game in Anaheim, Calif. “But, I mean, I’m not going anywhere, you know what I’m saying? The Yankees know me enough, it’s not like I’m going to hold out. I guess if I had spent all my money or whatever, it might be different. But it’s not about that, really, anymore
TW and Jennifer
When they say it’s not about the money – - – it’s about the money.
I don’t disagree, but a report came out that Abreu is still looking for a 3 year/$48M contract. Now, of course he’s not going to get that, but a month ago when he had to make the decision, it is pretty feasible that he wouldn’t have accepted it.
I would think that the FO has a plan of some sort that extends some distance into the future not just the immediate year. I would also think that the public has no idea what it would actually be. Fun to try and guess though.
All the guessing and asumptions we read here and everywhere are merely the application of W.A.G.S. theorem. Some educated some based on hearts desire. If only we had all the information the FO has. If only we knew the short and long term plan. We don’t and likely never will.
“Easy big fella. He still gave Sabathia $60M more than any other team was offering, and disabled list certainty Burnett twice what 200-inning lock Lowe seems likely to get. Let’s not give him the shrewd-shopper of the year award just yet.”
First, we don’t know what the highest competing offer was. Second, Cashman paid market value for CC. He is 28 and came off two seasons where he won a CY and pitched almost 500 total innings. He is the type of pitcher you break the bank on, and someone was going to give him a Santana-level contract. Imagine if the Yankees lost CC to another team because the Yankees didn’t make the highest offer.
The AJ deal looks like trouble to me too, but the Yankees had to throw money at another starter to ensure that the rotation doesn’t bottom out like it did last season. Also, AJ won’t make twice Lowe’s salary, and AJ got more years than Lowe will get because he is four years younger than Lowe.
“Also, just scanned through some of the Sam I Am backlash. Man, nothing stirs up rage on here like some well-deserved Cash-bashing.”
There are plenty of Cashman detractors here and many of them have valid points. Sam I Am just made stuff up in an attempt to get people’s attention and raise the traffic on his blog. That’s why so many commenters got upset.
“Of course factually challenged Sam left out some of the Boy Genius’s biggest f-ups, like:
1. The obscene 7 year contract (with a $5M option for an eighth!) that he dumped on Giambalco when nobody else was offering more than 5.”
I don’t recall any Yankee fans disliking that contract in 2001. Plus, Giambi was a good-to-great player in five of those seven years, including 2008, and he didn’t block us from signing any particularly good first basemen FAs.
“2. His failure to lock-up Pettitte early in the ‘03 offseason, followed by his amateurish last minute offer.”
The Yankees offered Pettitte more money than the Astros did. I don’t recall any other case where a FA turned down the biggest offer. Also, you criticize Cashman elsewhere for offering FAs too much money, and here you criticize him for failing to land a FA even though he offered that FA the most money.
“3. His decision not to aggressively court Clemens, or even offer him arbitration, in the ‘03 offseason when he still had something left, followed by the king’s ransom (and embarassing “family plan”) he gifted him in ‘07 when he was running on fumes.”
Clemens was 40 in 2003. Giving a multi-year deal to a pitcher in his 40s is very risky, to say the least. It certainly paid off for the Astros; it would not necessarily have paid off for the Yankees. By the way, the Astros gave Clemens the same kind of “family plan” the Yankees did.
“4. His failure in the ‘03 off season (that was a particularly crappy year) to get a concession on A-Fraud’s opt-out when he had Boras and him at the altar with nowhere else to go. That omission alone might end up costing us $100M.”
ARod agreed to lower his salary as a condition of a trade to the Red Sox and the Players Association vetoed it. Why wouldn’t the PA take the same stance as to the opt-out?
Instead, Cashman got the Rangers to pay about a third of ARod’s remaining salary. It was one of the greatest trades in baseball history, and yet you bash it anyway.
And for all the money the Yankees are spending on ARod under his new contract (which was, I have to say, supposedly a product of the Steinbrenners and not Cashman), he is still earning it, and will probably continue to earn it for most of its duration.
It might be Andy would prefer to retire than pitch for only 10m. What he says about the money is true, he doesn’t need any more of it. Pitching in NY is difficult, training is difficult, I don’t think if he doesn’t pitch for the Yankees next season, he means to insult us. I think he probably thinks the effort isn’t worth the dollars available.
That being said, i think one of Hughes/Aceves/or Kennedy can fill that #5 slot. If you don’t give young guys major league experience, they never become major league pitchers. Santana was garbage his first couple of seasons, give the kids a shot where they are shielded in a dominant rotation.
Ok guys Im on board for Smoltz for a couple of reasons. He is a vet and I think that he would be great for the guys in the rotation and also the system. I know hes coming off surgery so worse case he could go to the Pen for us. The thought of Smoltz to MO in October is worth looking at if Smoltz cant be a starter(Im saying him in the pen only if he would have a set-back) My wish list is now Smoltz,Perez,Sheets, and to be honest lets see if Moose will take that 10 mil a year
I like Perez . guy has nice stuff . Anybody have any clue what he could be asking for ??. . or how the market could affect his asking price ??
Jeremy,
1. It’s been widely reported that Milwaukee’s $100M was the only other 9 figure deal CC had on the table. The Blosox and Angels don’t need pitching and every other team is cash poor. If you want to believe that there was some mystery team willing to offer $150M, I think you’re being willfully ignorant.
2. The best offer I’ve seen reported for Lowe is the Mets at 3 years, 36M. Maybe he’ll get a few dollars more, but he’s going to end up with about half of the 82M Cash dropped on Pavano Jr. Years 4 and 5 of Burnett’s deal are going to be a laugh riot.
3. Every paper that reported on the Giambi deal in winter ’01 said the Yanks bid against themselves and gave Giambi years more than anyone else offered. (Sort of like CC’s deal now.)
4. On Pettitte, Cashman offered more money but only after he’d let Houston get a foot in the door. He could have and should have locked up Pettitte early that offseason and if he had, we would have had (potentially) Andy on the mound in Game 7 instead of Brown and Vasquez.
5. On Clemens, Houston didn’t give him a multi-year deal. If memory serves, they gave him one-year and 5M. Meanwhile we paid sourpuss Kevin Brown thrice that to punch walls and choke away the pennant.
6. On Arod, he was willing to eat money to go to Boston but Cash didn’t get a single concession from him or Boras when their choices were take it or go back to Texas. We wouldn’t be in a better spot now if he were playing out his original deal?
I’d take Abreu over Nady and Swisher any day. I think he’s still a viable option for Yanks, and wouldn’t be surprised if they revisit him before the Hot Stove is shut.
Giambi is set to get $5.25 mil plus an option from the A’/s.I’d beat that and trade Matsui for a bag of balls.Even if we eat 5 mil were still ahead of the game.
If Abreu accepted arbitration he would have a non-guaranteed contract. The Yankees could have cut him if they chose and not paid him a dime.
What if the Yankees can trade Nady and Swisher (since apparently both of them have gotten significant interest) and resign Abreu for RF? It sounds like Abreu might have to settle for a short term low money contract since all his potential suitors have signed other players (Cubs-Bradley, Rays-Burrell, A’s Giambi). Keep him at #3 with A-Rod behind him then Tex?
The money would just about be a wash if you could get Abreu for $10-12MM. Also, you’d probably get some young pitching in return for Nady and Swisher.
Just a thought, I do like Swisher but if he’s got value they might want to take advantage.
I WANT BOBBY BACK!!!!!
Just sayin’
randyhater,
Thanks for responding.
“1. It’s been widely reported that Milwaukee’s $100M was the only other 9 figure deal CC had on the table. The Blosox and Angels don’t need pitching and every other team is cash poor. If you want to believe that there was some mystery team willing to offer $150M, I think you’re being willfully ignorant.”
If there is one thing we should know by now, it’s that a lot of important baseball deals never get reported. Maybe I am being naive, but I will give the Yankees the benefit of the doubt here. After all, before we signed CC, word was he was definitely ending up somewhere on the West Coast. He would not have gone there for free.
There was also the troublesome fact that CC was a must-have acquisition for the Yankees. A team that has to make the playoffs every year, with the Yankees’ rotation coming into this offseason, can’t take any chances when a FA like CC is available. My guess is that the Yankees knew they would outbid themselves, but came up with a number that sufficiently took into account the horrendous opportunity costs that would have accompanied losing CC to any other team.
“2. The best offer I’ve seen reported for Lowe is the Mets at 3 years, 36M. Maybe he’ll get a few dollars more, but he’s going to end up with about half of the 82M Cash dropped on Pavano Jr. Years 4 and 5 of Burnett’s deal are going to be a laugh riot.”
I am with you that we will regret this deal. I have serious misgivings about it. In fact I hope you’re right that only years 4-5 are the terrible ones. But I do understand why the Yankees made that move. There were only two quality FA starters on the market besides CC and the Yankees were probably concerned that Lowe wouldn’t live up to his salary in the AL East. I also think Lowe will make a lot more than what the Mets are now offering him, which is almost absurdly little.
“3. Every paper that reported on the Giambi deal in winter ‘01 said the Yanks bid against themselves and gave Giambi years more than anyone else offered. (Sort of like CC’s deal now.)”
I’ll take your word about the media reports. I just disagree that the Giambi deal was such a catastrophe. Yes, he cost way too much for most of his contract. But he was a good player for most of his contract, even in 2008. And as long as his contract was, he left us just in time for us to sign Teixeira. For all the problems Giambi caused us, he was usually a far better player than anyone we could have substituted for him.
“4. On Pettitte, Cashman offered more money but only after he’d let Houston get a foot in the door. He could have and should have locked up Pettitte early that offseason and if he had, we would have had (potentially) Andy on the mound in Game 7 instead of Brown and Vasquez.”
Hindsight is 20/20 here. Pettitte’s going to the Astros shocked everyone. And if “getting a foot in the door” is so important, why is it wrong for Cashman to move quickly on must-have FAs (like CC) by quickly putting a knockout offer on the table?
“5. On Clemens, Houston didn’t give him a multi-year deal. If memory serves, they gave him one-year and 5M. Meanwhile we paid sourpuss Kevin Brown thrice that to punch walls and choke away the pennant.”
You are absolutely right and I admit my memory of this is fuzzy. But now I recall that Clemens RETIRED after 2003 and stunned the Yankees when he unretired with Houston. (Remember Steinbrenner giving Clemens a Hummer as a retirement gift?) So it wasn’t like Cashman just passed on Clemens. Also, after his 5M deal with Houston, he came back with two more one-year deals worth a combined $30 million (pro-rated), far more than anything he had made before.
There’s really no way to blame the Yankees on this one. They were mad too.
“6. On Arod, he was willing to eat money to go to Boston but Cash didn’t get a single concession from him or Boras when their choices were take it or go back to Texas. We wouldn’t be in a better spot now if he were playing out his original deal?”
You missed my point about the Players Association. No clause in a contract gives a player more power than an opt-out. Why would the PA veto a salary reduction but not waiving an opt-out? My point is that it wasn’t ARod’s call here, as the PA could go over his head. Instead, Cashman got the only concession available: Texas’s commitment to pay ARod to play for us.
Saying the call to not offer arbitration to Abreu was correct is simply not valid. Abreu had 5 days to decide whether or not to accept — it’s not like he could have waited out the market until today and then decided. The question had to be answered by that Sunday, and if Bobby and his agent had mistakenly thought the market would be better and declined arbitration (which, given his recent rumored asking price of $48M/3, seems likely), then the decision to not offer was still a bad one. What has happened since then is totally irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it was a good decision to offer.
It’s like when Jerry Jones drafted Quincy Carter in the 2nd round. Carter might have become a HOF QB, but it didn’t matter — if you still could have picked him up in the 3rd or even 4th round, it was a stupid decision to pick him up in the 2nd round.