America is truly the land of opportunity
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 06, 2009 
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This release from the Indians:
The Cleveland Indians today signed RHP CARL PAVANO to a one-year free agent Major League contract for the 2009 season.
Pavano, who turns 33 on Thursday, owns a career Major League record of 66-66 with a 4.32 ERA in 193 games/175 starts (1083.1IP, 1167H, 520ER, 301BB, 692K) over 10 Major League seasons with the Montreal Expos, Florida Marlins & New York Yankees. His best season came in 2004 with the Marlins when he went 18-8 w/a 3.00ERA in 31 starts (2SHO, 222.1IP, 212H, 74ER, 49BB, 139K). He finished 2nd in the National League in wins, 7th in ERA and was named a NL All-Star and finished 6th in the Cy Young balloting at the conclusion of that season. He was originally drafted by the Boston Red Sox in 1994 (13th round) and was later traded to the Expos in November 1997 in a deal that sent Pedro Martinez to Boston.
He signed a 4-year free agent Major League contract with the New York Yankees in December of 2004. Carl finished the 2008 season in the New York Yankees rotation, making 7 starts to finish out the campaign on a healthy note (4-2, 5.77ERA, 34.1IP, 41H, 22ER, 10BB, 15K). The New Britain, Connecticut native had reconstructive surgery on his right elbow in June of 2007 after making his first career Opening Day start for the Yankees on April 2, 2007 and spent the first 4 months of the 2008 season rehabbing from that procedure.
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Pavano received $1.5 million guaranteed plus another $5.3 million in possible incentives. His agent, Tom O’Connell, should get a prize.
Wouldn’t it be something if Pavano faced the Yankees at the Stadium in April?
Good Luck to Pavano — and the injuns.
yea watch him pitched a gem too. i would love to see miss american idol, not make it out of the 1st inning
at least he didn’t get any real money (by MLB standards)…… Still, would have loved that to be 1.5 dollars, not million dollars.
…lol
Pavano will be a good sleeper candidate. I mean there is only so much rehabing you can do before you need a nap.
it would be great if we do
What’s amazing is, he told everybody he was going back to the Marlins for a 1 yr, 1 million dollar deal.
The Indians actually “won” a bidding war for Carl Pavano! lol
I don’t think I’d be excited about that if I were in the Indians front office.
My post from the last thread:
” … if he doesn’t get hurt (ha!) $1.5M could actually become a bargain for Cleveland. But if he does it could turn out to be be among the most expensive 24 innings they ever paid for.”
The land of opportunity indeed. So there’s a glimmer of hope for me and my flaccid old throwing arm? What’s his agent’s phone number? My arm’s about as healthy as Schilling’s when he signed his last 1-year deal with Boston!
I feel awful for the guy who had to write that presser. How do you make a guy who stinks sound good?
I’m sure I could reach the plate on no more than 2 hops!
April 16, 2009, Opening Day at the New Yankee Stadium. CC Sabathia vs. Carl Pavano.
Too juicy a storyline not to happen.
“April 16, 2009, Opening Day at the New Yankee Stadium. CC Sabathia vs. Carl Pavano.
Too juicy a storyline not to happen.”
Funny, SJ44!! This would be a great story, but I doubt it happens. My guess is CC vs Lee.
I still can’t believe he was the opening day starter for the Yanks a couple years ago. What a joke.
His record is 66-66? Are you serious?
Pavano will pitch a 3 hit shutout on 4/16 and our new joint will be cursed forever. Forget the Ortiz jersey, be on guard for a Pavano chief wahoo patch hidden in the training room
Vin it was by default.
My guess is CC vs Lee.
And how great that would be!
Anyone hear the moron who just called Kay. Said why won’t they put Joba in the pen? He can throw hard for one inning. Also what happens if Mo goes down. He is due. Darn hater. Why even speak that!!!
And don’t other pitchers throw hard start? UGH
If you actually think about it, that’s not a bad deal for the Tribe. $1.5 million is a steal nowadays if you break it down into dollars paid per win, assuming of course Pavano can stay healthy enough to get some starts under his belt and win a few games, which I’m sure he will. He did win 4 games last year. He wins 4 this year and that’s $375k per win. The Yanks paid Pettite $16 million and he won 14, or $1.14 million per win. I don’t like Pavano as much as the next person, and really wouldn’t mind seeing him flop again, but the Indians could make out big here. Talk about low-risk and high reward. It reminds me of a mid-season Cashman signing when he needs another arm, ie Sidney Ponson.
Besides, who would you rather pay $1.5 million to: Carl Pavano and his career record of 66-66 and ERA of 4.32, or Jason Johnson and his 56-100 record and 4.99 ERA? I hate to say it, but I’d take Pavano.
Pavano update…
he was just sent to the 60 day DL for carpal-tunnel syndrome which occurred as he was signing his new contract.
It would be embarrassing if Carl beat the Yanks in a game in ’09 but it could conceivably happen. The guy did go 4-2 over those last few starts even if it was with an ERA that rivaled Igawa’s and a 6 innings per game limit.
Conceivably …. lets hope not.
j-boogie: That’s assuming that he can stay healthy.
If I’m a cleveland fan right now, I am *really* pissed off.
Pitt’s bro … did they have to call in a reliever to finish signing his last name?
Watch “the idol” win 20 games and pitch a no-no. I kid…I kid. OMG!
ANSKY
yes, the long reliever even…
Confucious,
Frankly, i find it hard to believe oli perez will pitch much better than the combo of aceves, hughes, kennedy and company and if signed, he will cost far more than those three. I dont think he is worth a good amount of money. Second, he is not really worth a draft pick either.
Yes, i said in my post that is lights out some games but not enough games. And the games that he isnt lights out, he is just terrible and sometimes comes out in the first or second inning. You mentioned he pitched to 6 innings 20 times but how many times did he come out in the first, second or third innings? That takes a huge toll on the pen also. It isnt just a matter of how many times he pitches 6 innings.
Sheets is a risk but he is worth the risk if his price drops low enough. The complete lack of interest works in our advantage because at this point, he may even take a one year deal with incentives for almost the money we would have given to pettitte. And sheets would be our third starter and not our fourth or fifth. And honestly, i dont buy all of these rumors.
If sheets shoulder was a mess, why decline 14 million in arbitration? And why decline arbitration in a horrible market when he could have accepted and improved his health while jumping into a new free agent off season with a much better market? And if he knew his shoulder was a mess, why would he think the teams looking into him wouldnt look at his medical records and if he thought so, how could he possibly believe he would get more than 14 mil next season?
All of those questions make it seem very likely that this shoulder situation is completely overblown. Either that or casey close is a horrible agent but i would like to believe the former. And i think it is this injury tag that sheets has had to carry around the wide majority of his career that is turning a minor shoulder problem into “his shoulder is a mess” in the media. There is a big difference at times between reality and perception and when sheets has always been viewed as injury prone and he gets an injury right before becoming a free agent – that original title certainly goes a long way in turning perception far, far away from that of reality at times. I think this is one of those times.
Further, i think burnett after finally having an injury free season somehow turned the perception in the other direction making the yanks believe that he would be worth a 5 year deal when in fact he has rarely been healthy through his career and missed far more time than sheets in total due to injuries. It is a similar situation but in the other direction.
Oh and oli perez’s pretty mediocre numbers and atrocious walk per inning rate all occurred in the inferior national league. Imagine how high those walk totals will be when he has to face the dh instead of the pitcher in the superior AL lineups. He will be a terrible signing for the yankees.
Rebecca-Optimist Prime-Staying to write the story
January 6th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
GB: Three years ago, ‘Joba’ was a character in Star Wars.
——————————————————————————————
Just imagine if Luke Greinke comes along and is close to his brother in talent, “The Force” will be turning Luke (Skywalker) and Joba loose on The Nation.
Pete,
can you live blog the Indians Pavano press conference?
Thanks!
When is Tex supposed to be on Kay’s show?
Mr. Pete,
that’s better. Thanks for the update. Let the healing begin.
Brandon (CC & AJ now Marky Mark (they stilled over paid him) are Yankees)
January 6th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
“If he developes into anything close and as fast as De La Rosa, NYY will be left handed heavy in the rotation with a bullpen full of upper 90s relief pitchers.”
Yup. Also someone is getting traded when he hits A ball or AA, because I doubt there is a CL in this system that will match him if he developes in the states like he has in D.R.
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If he’s that good, he’d make a great 8th inning leadin for Jonathan Ortiz.
Rebecca – In a twisted way it’s got about the same net result as if we’d traded Pavano for CC last year before they moved him to Milwaukee.
CC would’ve signed here for about as much, and they’d still have Carl. Everyone’s happy!
Well … everyone over here at least ….
Pavano is going to win the Cy
Rebecca: for $1.5 million, I’d roll the dice. It’s not a bad gamble. It could pay off pretty big for the Tribe, assuming of course he stays healthy.
We could say the same about A.J. Burnett. His contract is make-or-break and is totally dependent on his ability to stay healthy. It’s a lot bigger if a gamble than the Pavano signing.
Pitts bro …. I bet they had him warming up before they handed Carl the pen.
GB: Well, then I’d love being part of the Evil Empire!
ANSKY: True dat!
J-Boogie: Indeed, it could very well pay off. I still think it’s a huge risk, though.
Reports dribbling in from Cleveland…
Witnesses at the signing say Carl got the “C” and part of the “a” out when he grimmaced in pain and motioned to the bullpen.
“Vin it was by default.”
Yeah, but it doesn’t make it right.
Definitely. GB don’t be surprised if he succeeds Ortiz. Quick learner is what this kid is just check his improvement from yr. 1 in DSL to yr. 2 …Ok now I got to go. Later Lohud.
Come on Pete and everyone else…you didn’t think Pavano would land a job???
He’s 33, not 43, and there is a DEARTH of decent, experienced major league pitching.
Yeah, he was awful and always hurt for the Yankees, but look at some of the atrocious starters some teams run out there. You had to figure Pavano would find someplace to call home. I don’t even think it’s out of the realm of possibility that he put up decent numbers (emphasis on the DECENT, haha).
What’s the Over/Under on how many games he pitches?!?
What kind of injury can you get from those flies in Cleveland?
Dave,
He not only has a shoulder injury, he has a torn flexor tendon near his right elbow he is still rehabbing. A lot of teams believe that injury is a pre-cursor to TJ Surgery.
The guy is a huge injury risk. If he wasn’t, he would have been signed right now.
The issue isn’t taking the risk. The issue is, how much do you want to pay a guy who may only pitch 20 times this year?
A lot of teams see him as a very big risk. Including the Yankees.
It will be interesting to see where he lands.
Rebecca: knowing Pavano’s recent history I agree. But $1.5 mill is nothing nowadays. Like A.J. Burnett last season, Pavano has a lot to pitch for if he plans on finding a deal somewhere next year. It could be added motivation.
I wonder how many reporters will show up at Glass butts press conference?
Carl can get a very bad rash from those bugs.
Serious question: do other teams even do press conferences? I know the Mets have, but I didn’t see where anyone else has. Or has no other team made a big enough signing to warrant a press conference? The thing is I don’t remember from other years, either. Or maybe I’m just so Yankees-centric that if it doesn’t happen to the Yankees, it doesn’t happen.
I will also add that if Sheets’ medicals were better, the Yankees would have signed him already.
They have a very good relationship with Casey Close, who is also Jeter’s agent.
Also, there are members of the organization on the baseball side that LOVE Sheets. They would have killed to sign him.
Evidently, the medical staff, along with his medicals just aren’t good enough to take the risk.
Could it all be a smokescreen? Normally, I would say “yes”.
However in this case, they don’t have to play games with him. They have their FA signings (CC and AJ) in place.
Its a matter of whether or not they believe the guy is healthy enough to contribute for the money he is seeking.
The Yankees, at least at this time, don’t feel he is healthy enough to risk that shot.
I think I would rather have Pavano for 1.5M than pay 5M per year to our no. 4 starter in Scranton, plus the 20M for the privilege to ask him to sign that contract.
are they really having a press confrence for pavano? no way
Pavano must be so happy I am afraid that he might drive into a wall tonight
“Frankly, i find it hard to believe oli perez will pitch much better than the combo of aceves, hughes, kennedy and company and if signed, he will cost far more than those three.”
Nothing in their respective ML histories suggest otherwise. When we saw them in April, Hughes and Kennedy clearly needed more time to develop. Aceves had one good September, same as Kennedy the year before. Perez has a proven ability to win ML games, and he’s won big ones against good teams. You go with that before taking another sketchy chance on Hughes/IPK/whoever managing to get through a ML season. You knock Olie’s innings, but he has pitched 170+ in two consecutive seasons, 190 last year. Hughes strictly cannot do that. IPK/Aceves are highly unlikely to.
The cost? I think that’s where the whole ‘Yankee luxury’ thing comes in. If Andy walks, we’ve got 10mm in payroll to devote elsewhere. We can burn it on a 5th starter. Cue the outcry from other fans, but tough, that’s the way it is. And we’d be giving up a 4th round pick. A 4th round pick is no better than Oliver Perez — just as much an uncertainty, with far less upside.
If he’s chased early? Chances are the game is already lost. That’s why you carry long relievers. The Yanks can’t repeat the mistake of not starting the season with one.
“Imagine how high those walk totals will be when he has to face the dh instead of the pitcher in the superior AL lineups.”
This would again warrant a mention of those starts at Yankee stadium. Walks hurt more in the AL, but the guy has enough raw talent to get through AL lineups as easily as NL lineups when he’s on top of his game.
“All of those questions make it seem very likely that this shoulder situation is completely overblown. Either that or casey close is a horrible agent but i would like to believe the former.”
Or he was hoping to get a long term deal now to ensure security, all the more important if his shoulder is damaged.
SJ: Who’s the risk you’re talking about? Burnett, Sheets or Perez?
J-Boogie: Agreed.
Doreen: That’s a good question. I think any time it’s a really big name free agent there’s a press conference, which is probably why you’ve never heard of a “Devils Press Conference”
Doreen,
Other teams do PC’s for their big signings. Its basically a standard thing for a major announcement.
from the previous thread
“Watch him toss a 3 hitter against us now.”
I wouldnt be surprised. We are known to struggle against over 6 era starters.
GB7,
lol. That Johnson joke was classic. Ill make sure i never take a lunch again so i could pounce on the next one.
As iv said a couple weeks ago. That Silleto advertisement is getting hotter by the minute. I heard once Peter makes this blog a registration one, he’s going to ask for a major credit card and must be over 21 to get in. No need to worry your over.
Andrea,
I guess if its grammer that you look at on this blog. Iv officially flunked your class.
Thanks, SJ44 – so, I am, indeed Yankee-centric!
Rebecca,
Sheets.
The problem with signing any other free agent pitcher other than Pettitte is the years. Yes, Oliver Perez would likely be better than Hughes this year. But you would probably have to give him a two or three year deal. So the question is, would Perez be better than the ’10 and/or 2011 Phil Hughes? Because the other 4 starters are locked up for years. The lack of movement seems to say that the Yanks don’t feel he is better than the future Hughes.
” can you live blog the Indians Pavano press conference”
Yes please!! Id like to see what eye candy will be standing next to Pavano. Maybe someone from silletto. Scratch that, better. And here everyone thought The three amigos wives were hott. You aint seen nothin yet.
press conference Pete!!
S.o.S.
January 6th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
from the previous thread
“Watch him toss a 3 hitter against us now.”
I wouldnt be surprised. We are known to struggle against over 6 era starters.
GB7,
lol. That Johnson joke was classic. Ill make sure i never take a lunch again so i could pounce on the next one.
As iv said a couple weeks ago. That Silleto advertisement is getting hotter by the minute. I heard once Peter makes this blog a registration one, he’s going to ask for a major credit card and must be over 21 to get in. No need to worry your over.
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My pleasure S.o.S., happy you got a good afternoon chuckle out of that.
“Yes, Oliver Perez would likely be better than Hughes this year. But you would probably have to give him a two or three year deal. So the question is, would Perez be better than the ‘10 and/or 2011 Phil Hughes?”
What is the rush to get Hughes to the major leagues? He’s still only 22 years old. Word is Cashman was reluctant to bring him up originally, but other team heads pressured him into it. Let him develop. He’ll get some ML starts anyway; there’s no way your starting 5 is going to give you 150 starts.
Worry about 2010 when 2010 gets here. If Perez disappoints and Hughes is great, maybe you can move Perez.
This just in!!….Jason Johnson was traded back to Japan for Rasner(Igawas upset he wasnt included). Rasner traded for Karstens. Karstens traded for Chacon. Chacon dfa’d.
YANKEES SIGN SMALL!!
Do i have to mention the “Bubba is our center fielder” again? Johnson will not be the 5th starter. We will get a legit starter. To be continued…
SJ: Ahh yea. That would make sense then.
Tex on with Michael Kay
SJ,
Where did you read that a torn flexor muscle was a pre-cursor to TJ surgery? I would be curious to read that article. I knew about that injury but was under the impression that it was similar to a torn hamstring muscle – it required rest and immobilizing the muscle for a bit but no surgery whatsoever.
I know sheets is a very big injury risk but giving burnett five years was a massive risk as well. And sheets would only require a year or two – at some point, when his price and years go down far enough the risks becomes worth it because the hope is lightening in a bottle.
And sheets pitched 200 innings last season making 31 starts. He may make 20 starts next season but he may make 30. The same could be said for burnett.
Furthermore, sheets hasnt had a shoulder injury on his medical history since 2006 before these most recent reports and the reason he hit the dl in september was due to the flexor tear and had nothing to do with his shoulder. Therefore, i dont find it extremely likely that this shoulder issue is the major cause for concern at the moment.
If sheets is asking for 1 year and 12 mil he has to be worth the risk merely because he could be an ace on most teams. I realize the medical history is ominous and signing him is a risk no matter what he costs but the reward is so high that the risk becomes worth it.
I think Pettitte has to use his head here.
If he said after the season, “I’d love to comeback but, I have to look at all my options”, nobody says a word about what’s going on now.
He didn’t do that. He said he wanted to come back to the Yankees, that money wouldn’t be a factor and that he doesn’t have any desire to pitch anywhere else.
Now, we see that’s not true. Money IS a factor.
If he goes elsewhere, its because of money. For a guy whose reputation took a big hit last year over HGH (especially since he didn’t tell the Yankees about his “problem” until AFTER he signed his contract) his reputation is torched forever.
Clearly, he wants to pitch. He has told Girardi, Jeter, Posada, Torre and Cashman he wants to pitch.
He also told all those guys he wants to pitch for the Yankees.
He is being offered more money for that slot in the rotation (#4) than anybody in baseball.
Its well within his rights to turn it down. However, by doing so, he is ruining his reputation.
10 million bucks in this environment ain’t chump change folks.
I don’t know what’s going through his mind but, if I were him, I’d retire if he doesn’t make a deal with the Yankees.
If he goes somewhere else chasing cash (which is what he would be doing) his reputation is ruined forever.
For a guy as sensitive as Pettitte, I don’t think he will handle that very well.
I like Andy Pettitte. Met him several times and he is a very nice man. I hope he thinks this thing through and end his career the right way.
If not, he is going to regret it, IMO.
I think Pavano is going to have a good season. He’s a talented guy on a 1 year deal, looking to get another payday. He’s a virtual lock to make an effort with that contract, and situation he’s in. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he ends up winning somewhere around 12-15 games for the tribe.
Jason Johnson is flat awful. He’ll be outright released a couple weeks into Spring Training. Boy is he a BP machine.
From jerry crasnick in November:
“Agent Casey Close said that Sheets’ latest problem — a flexor muscle tear — is expected to fully heal in the offseason. Sheets probably could have pitched in October if the Brewers had shut him down for two or three starts in August. But with the team scrambling for a postseason berth, Sheets didn’t have the luxury of another visit to the disabled list. He threw complete-game, five-hit shutouts against Washington and San Diego in a span of six starts in August and September before the pain became too much to bear.”
No mention of a shoulder injury and no mention of possible TJ surgery.
The brewers offered sheets arbitration for one year and around 14 million and Sheets declined. If his current status is as terrible as many are claiming – why would the brewers who im sure know all about sheets health offer him 14 million and why would sheets who im sure knows everything there is to know decline 14 million in a bad market? Something doesnt add up.
For $12 million bucks, I would rather see the yanks up the offer to Pettite than spend it on Sheets. I think we need consistency rather than upside out of our #4 spot. Those innings need to be there, with Joba and Hughes on an innings cap.
Dave,
Burnett has made more starts the last 3 years than Wang. His injury history is way overblown. He’s also more dependable, and healthier, than Sheets.
Most team doctors will tell you that when a pitcher has a torn flexor tendon in his elbow, its a warning sign. Some guys, like Andy Pettitte for example, get it fixed and they don’t need TJ Surgery.
Others, like Josh Johnson of the Marlins, Carl Pavano, John Smoltz and Tommy John (whose next elbow injury inspired the the ligament replacement surgery that bears his name) had that injury become the pre-cursor to TJ Surgery.
He’s a great pitcher when healthy but, he’s not healthy.
If he wants to pitch for one year, 8 million with incentives, I’d roll the dice. Anything more than that, I wouldn’t touch him at all.
Obviously though, the Yankees saw more in those MRI’s than they wanted to see. If they didn’t, I think he would have been in pinstripes by now, IMO.
He also had 31 starts with a 3 era last season in almost 200 innings pitching 5 complete games and starting the all star game. He pitched one of those complete games after his forearm was already bothering him which may have made it worse but also shows how much heart sheets has and how even with an injury he will not take himself out and still is capable of pitching effectively.
Dave
A healthy Ben Sheets would give the Yanks a mortal lock on the division at least.
Of course the fly in the ointment is the injury.
No doubt the teams all have information on this that we will never have. I have to believe there is a major red flag there or he would’ve been signed by now. I agree – otherwise Sheets is the best pitcher on the FA market by a longshot.
I’d love to see us sign him but again, we don’t know his true medical status.
“why would sheets who im sure knows everything there is to know decline 14 million in a bad market”
If his arm is a ticking time bomb and he knows it, he’d try to get a long term deal. What if he takes the 14 million and suffers a major tear midseason and requires surgery? Any chance he’s got at a lucrative long term deal is killed.
Obviously the agent is going to say the injury isn’t that bad. He’s precisely the guy who’d have to get Sheets that long term deal.
I’d much rather overpay for Andy than for Sheets.
That said, I’m of the opinion that Andy could have handled the entire thing much better than he did.
The general fan sentiment seems to be, we don’t really care if money’s the issue–just don’t lie to us and say it’s not when it is.
Pavano 2009: 212 IP 18-5 112K
just to piss us all off
Dave,
Im on the Sheets bandwagon. High risk, high reward for the same amount of money Pettitte would end up with? Where do i sign?
If i were the Yankees and Pettitte insisted on coming back after cooling off period. I would sign him to a contract ala Penny. 5 mil plus incentives. He lost the staredown, now $ht or get off the pot.
dave
January 6th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
From jerry crasnick in November:
“Agent Casey Close said that Sheets’ latest problem—a flexor muscle tear—is expected to fully heal in the offseason. Sheets probably could have pitched in October if the Brewers had shut him down for two or three starts in August. But with the team scrambling for a postseason berth, Sheets didn’t have the luxury of another visit to the disabled list. He threw complete-game, five-hit shutouts against Washington and San Diego in a span of six starts in August and September before the pain became too much to bear.”
No mention of a shoulder injury and no mention of possible TJ surgery.
————————————————————
Did you expect Close to say, “Yeah it’s true that Ben’s sholder is still barking and his elbow balloons up after he combs his hair, but, it’s nothing to be concerned about. A big contract will ease the pain.”
You failed to mention that Sheets missed three starts, got hammered in a September start and couldn’t get out of the 2nd inning in 3 more starts.
He was hurt and tried pitching through it. So was Pettitte and he didn’t miss au
dave
January 6th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
From jerry crasnick in November:
“Agent Casey Close said that Sheets’ latest problem—a flexor muscle tear—is expected to fully heal in the offseason. Sheets probably could have pitched in October if the Brewers had shut him down for two or three starts in August. But with the team scrambling for a postseason berth, Sheets didn’t have the luxury of another visit to the disabled list. He threw complete-game, five-hit shutouts against Washington and San Diego in a span of six starts in August and September before the pain became too much to bear.”
No mention of a shoulder injury and no mention of possible TJ surgery.
————————————————————
Did you expect Close to say, “Yeah it’s true that Ben’s sholder is still barking and his elbow balloons up after he combs his hair, but, it’s nothing to be concerned about. A big contract will ease the pain.”
You failed to mention that Sheets missed three starts, got hammered in a September start and couldn’t get out of the 2nd inning in 3 more starts.
He was hurt and tried pitching through it. So was Pettitte and he didn’t miss au
Yankees will not go for Sheets, they will probably cave to Pettitte, but i think the damage is done. I see Andy being booed heavily each time he doesnt pitch well. Not the way you want to see part of our 4 championships go out. The Yankees will get a one year guy to come in, a Paul Byrd or something of that ilk, so Hughes can start in AAA.
Who is Melvin Croissant?
Since other teams have press conferences to introduce big signings, I’ll ask again: Did Gil Meche say he always wanted to pitch in the City of Fountains at his?
He was hurt and tried pitching through it. So was Pettitte and he didn’t miss a start. He wasn’t affective, but, he was in there because he was needed, but, that finish is what everybody is hammering himfor. Befor that injury, he was 12-7 and a 3.73 ERA. Certainly better than most AL only pitchers.
Dave,
What do you expect his agent to say?
Instead of looking for articles, think for a minute.
EVERYBODY in baseball needs pitching. How come he hasn’t been signed?
The guy, if healthy is better than any FA pitcher on the market this year except Sabathia. Yet, he can’t get a sniff.
If he was healthy, don’t you think he would be signed by now?
The Brewers, who had no problems using Sabathia on 3 days rest 5 times in a row, shut him down for the post-season. They did because he isn’t healthy.
Despite bringing his MRI’s for every team meeting this winter, Close still can’t a big deal for him. What does that tell you?
Guys like Sheets, if healthy, are not “bargain basement” guys. Like Burnett, Sabathia, and Teixeira, guys of that skillset get big money if healthy.
He’s not healthy. That’s why he isn’t getting big money offers.
I know you don’t believe it and I know you will spend the next two hours finding every quote from Casey Close telling you how healthy he is.
Unfortunately though, agent spin isn’t enough to get him a big deal.
A doctor or 2 in the Cleveland area just did a little jig
Pavano did pitch all of September without getting hurt. Say what you want but 1.5 is a bargain for a pitcher. If he gets hurt, no harm, if he pitches like we all know he is going to just to spite us, they will get way more than that money out of him.
He will probably fall off the podium at his first press conference and be out for the season.
Nick in SF
January 6th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Who is Melvin Croissant?
Since other teams have press conferences to introduce big signings, I’ll ask again: Did Gil Meche say he always wanted to pitch in the City of Fountains at his?
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Oh, cme on, now. You’ve never heard of Croissant Rolls? His father invented them.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Fsh7.....nyy114.jpg
Nick,
No. Meche said its been his dream to pitch in a city where he could go to Arthur Bryant’s for BBQ everyday.
That sold him on the Royals.
That, and he got courtside seats for KU games.
“Pavano 2009: 212 IP”
That number would be enough to piss me off.
SJ44 –
I agree with what you wrote about Pettitte, except I don’t recall him ever saying money wasn’t an issue. Or anything to do with money. All I remember him saying was he wanted to pitch for the Yankees, in the new stadium.
I have a feeling we all assumed he wanted to do it so badly that money wouldn’t be an issue.
If Pettitte bows out, I’d consider Sheets on a 2 mil and heavy incentives to get to 13 mil., one year plus a team option and no byout.
Andy is getting bad advice from his agents. They have essentially turned him into a hired gun, and less of a ‘real’ yankee. most people are so tired of the pettitte drama that we just dont care what he does anymore, but he better play to the money he thinks he deserves if he gets it. i just dont see it happening.
HA 2 Mil? Even Brad penny for 5 Mil.
penny got 5 mil.
***buyout***
SJ
obviously neither you nor I have all the facts on hand but for me, it is just would be flatout crazy to pass out 14 mil and enter a horrible market knowing that he is less than a year away from tj surgery and/or has a major shoulder injury. Further it would be insane of the brewers to offer him 14 mil with the idea that he may fall apart next season.
How could you say burnett has had more starts than wang and expect it to mean something to me? Wang sat out for a little more than half the season last year so he isnt exactly the picture of health. And while Burnett did pitch a full season last year (in his contract year – SURPRISE SURPRISE) he missed significant time in 2006 and some time in 2007 as well pitching in only 21 and 25 games. Both burnett and sheets pitched over 30 games last season and both missed time the two years prior but sheets has 4 complete seasons in his 8 year career while Burnett has 3 complete seasons in his 9 year career. yES- Sheets is injured currently and that should have an impact on the decision to sign him but in their history both should be considered pretty risky. Further, sheets being injured now should play a role in a decision but should not play too much of a role meaning the current injuries should not be overexaggerated to a huge degree just because he is an extensive history. I believe that is what is going on.
I agree 1 year deal would be worth a shot but i think he would be worth more like 12 mil and i would give him a team option for more money for a second season and put a bunch of incentives in. Thus, if he has to have surgery or is miserable, the first season we are only on the hook for 12 mil. Burnett’s contract seems far more risk because while not currently injured, his extensive history did not warrant a five year contract and the yanks would look far worse if that deal blew up in our face than signing sheets to the deal above.
that is pass up 14 million not pass out
“He will probably fall off the podium at his first press conference and be out for the season.”
lol. He’ll wait to get that multi year contract in 2010 first.
Pavano = Kaiser Souzee(killed the spelling)
“A doctor or 2 in the Cleveland area just did a little jig”
Hehehe. Maybe Idol can hang out at the RnR Hall of Fame looking for chicks.
And the ~Winnaaaa~ is….. the NY Yankees,they got CC Indians got -Pavano- PLAYED
“it is just would be flatout crazy to pass out 14 mil and enter a horrible market knowing that he is less than a year away from tj surgery and/or has a major shoulder injury.”
The exact opposite is true. If he knows he’s going to need TJ surgery this year, he’s got to try to get a long term deal now before the arm blows up. TJ surgery kills his value next year.
The idea with these arb decisions and the market being poor just doesn’t work. Two players accepted arbitration. Two 38 year old relievers. The GM’s who predicted the market being this poor weren’t as smart as the GM’s who knew that the players wouldn’t make the same prediction.
Pavano = Kaiser Souzee(killed the spelling)
————————————————————
Was that suppoed to be WC Fields’ characher in “The Bank Dick”….Egbert Souse’…accent dram?
CORRECTION: ***character***
No GB7. “THE USUAL SUSPECTS”
Hmmm, I’ve been trying to post an itinerary from Cleveland to Birmingham but it’s getting caught in the filters. There is no non-stop, so Carl will have to change planes if they make him fly commercial.
Doreen,
He told Michael Kay in an interview on his radio show that money isn’t an issue. Its just about whether or not he wants to pitch. He was real clear about that.
He also told some of the beat writers the same thing.
Usually, I’m 100% in a players corner when it comes to money. Get as much as you can when you can get it is my motto.
However, in this case, its a little different.
Truth be told, he signed his contract last year under false pretenses.
Every player that signs a Yankee contract has to sign a seperate affidavit saying they are not, and have not, used performance enhancing drugs. Call it the “Giambi Document”, since it was enacted after the Giambi/Balco scandal. Pettitte signed that affidavit and never said a word to the Yankees about his HGH use.
When the @#$# hit the fan, the Yankees took the bullet, and stood behind him. They could have pushed him to modify his agreement. They could have fined him. If they really wanted a war, they could have looked to void the contract because he signed it under false pretenses.
That obviously would have sparked a serious fight with the Union. It was an option discussed internally. Instead, they supported the guy and took all the hits from the media and fans last year.
That means Andy owes them. Especially since he broke down in the stretch run (probably because he couldn’t do all of his winter work due to the investigation), and looked nothing like a 16 million dollar pitcher.
He knew he was going to get a paycut. The Yankees were upfront and told him so. Cashman also told him what his off-season plans were, where Andy fit in with them, and why the offer was what it was. A 10 million dollar offer, in this marketplace, is MORE than fair.
Yet, he turns it down because he’s looking for more money.
Nobody in this marketplace will pay him more than 10 million to pitch this year. We now know that “mystery” 3/36 offer was BS.
So once again, Andy tarnishes his good name with this nonsense.
I don’t understand it. For all the guy has been through, he could pitch as a #4 starter here (remember, Andy is not a guy that likes to a featured guy), blend in and end his career on a high note.
Instead, he trolling for more money after coming off a bad (as well as injured) second half of last year.
I just see it as another nail in his coffin as far as rehabbing his reputation.
That’s why I hope, for his sake more than the Yankees, he works things out with them.
If he doesn’t, the Yankees will ultimately fill his slot with somebody. They are the Yankees. They aren’t going to leave the spot vacant.
For Andy though, taking another hit to his reputation may make it impossible for him to ever gain creditiblity in the industry again. I’d hate to see that happen to him.
Correct spelling-Kaiser Sauzee
Kevin Spacey played Kaiser. He acted like he was crippled and fooled everyone into blaming the others for the killings. In the end he walks out of the PD having fooled the cops as well. Just killed the movie for whoever didnt watch it. Its still a must see.
Yea- sheets was horrible his last two games in september – what do you expect? He was trying to pitch through an injury in his pitching arm. My point was while Ben sheets was hurt he was still capable of pitching a complete game shutout on september sixth.
The point was that crasnick nor any other reporter of articles i read about this incident mentioned TJ surgery or shoulder injury being the reason he was out by september. I DID NOT EXPECT CLOSE TO SAY THAT but crasnick could have mentioned it and did not nor did any one else. I was looking for the reporter to say something not the agent obviously.
And SJ I never said he is not hurt right now – i just dont think it is some devastating injury that will lead to tj and I dont think its his shoulder as much as his flexor muscle. There was no mention of his shoulder in articles when he first went on the dl at all.
And Im sure the brewers know sooo little about his current status that they offered sheets 14 mil right? because his own team wouldnt know the facts at all would they? And im sure with a major injury Close would tell Sheets “dont worry you can get 14 million anywhere.” Maybe sheets wanted a payday before he fell apart but he or his agent had to realize that his medical record would not allow him to do so or the market was so bad he wouldnt be able to do so. You keep telling me no team wants to touch him but dont explain why his own team wanted him back for 14 million – So his team he knew him best of any team in baseball believed he was worth 14 mil. Sheets and his agent who know his history most of any people believed he could get a big payday or at the very least more than 14 million and you are telling me that teams see something in the MRIs or the records that the brewers, Casey Close and Sheets all overlooked somehow.
THIS IS WHAT IM NOT GETTING!
Somewhere in Pennsylvania Mike Mussina just got off his John Deere and picked up a baseball. Just one shot to pitch against Pavano and then retirement can be official.
Anybody looking for a nice Manhattan pad ?
http://www.luxist.com/2009/01/.....f-the-day/
Rebecca,
The issue is that Andy is hypocritical to the point of dishonesty.
Confucious – so you are saying that Casey Close and ben sheets are so dumb that they would think they could fool a team who has access to his medical records to sign him to a long term deal when they both knew based on his doctors reports that he would fall apart in the upcoming season. And all this would happen in a terrible market. I am skeptical but i guess it could be possible. iT JUST seems very far-fetched.
The Andy situation is starting to remind me of the Torre incident. They both were insulted by a fair offer. Your right sj. I hope he doesnt tarnish his reputation.
“You keep telling me no team wants to touch him but dont explain why his own team wanted him back for 14 million”
Offering arb /= wanting the player back. The Brewers correctly sensed (or even got indication from Close) that Sheets would be seeking multiple years. Because of it, they now stand to receive draft picks (if they don’t re-sign him for significantly less than 14mm). The same can be said for the GM’s who offered arb to the 22 out of 24 players that declined it.
Barring any indication to the contrary from the players, offering arb was the sound decision.
So Dave, why hasn’t he been signed? Simple question.
Simple answer…..nobody likes what they see in his MRI’s. Its that simple.
I know you don’t believe it and don’t want to believe but, that’s the way it is.
Why didn’t he take arbitration from the Brewers? Because he wanted out of Milwaukee because he felt his medical care by the team wasn’t up to snuff. So, he decided to take his chances on the open market.
Its not a difficult issue. The guy isn’t health enough right now for teams to feel comfortable paying him big money.
Who knows, perhaps that will change in a few weeks.
Right now though, he is a guy without any solid, multi-year offers in the marketplace.
It’s a smart move by Pavano. The Cleveland Clinic is right there…
VRSCE: Like I said, I don’t think anyone cares that Pettitte wants more money, they care that he said he didn’t and he obviously does.
So, yeah, it is hypocrisy.
It’s kind of annoying me, even if it shouldn’t–I was under the impression that honesty was his thing.
Although, it could always be worse.
He could be Rocket. What a disaster that was.
SJ….ther are more and more rumblings about teams desiring Nady (Cinncy) or Swisher. Washington doesn’t need Nady (they need left handed bats), however they aren’t sure they have enough for Swisher. Is a Swisher/Milledge deal possible?
“so you are saying that Casey Close and ben sheets are so dumb that they would think they could fool a team who has access to his medical records to sign him to a long term deal when they both knew based on his doctors reports that he would fall apart in the upcoming season. And all this would happen in a terrible market. I am skeptical but i guess it could be possible. iT JUST seems very far-fetched.”
I think you’re underestimating the FA mentality. Ben Sheets waited a long time to hit the open market and get his shot at the big payday he feels he deserves. If there were concerns with the arm, he wouldn’t let them get in the way, and his agent would do everything he could to diffuse those concerns. Perhaps he failed and Sheets is going to get hosed. Maybe someone who loses out on Lowe/Wolf/Perez will take a chance and show up with a big paycheck. That remains to be seen. But I’m considering his mentality at the time he decided to decline arb, which was the classic FA mentality.
I’ll be the mature one and wish Pavano luck.. unlike everyone else here , whose immature.
“Anybody looking for a nice Manhattan pad?”
Too obvious not to say it- is Abreu afraid of getting near his apartment walls too because there is nothing hung on them?
Nice apartment but a little unlived in/sterile for my taste.
I hope Andy moves on. Who wants a disgruntled
-nonproductive- pitcher that feels he’s under paid. Luv You Andy. Bye Bye!!
Rebecca
He is Rocket jr. I have always liked Andy, but the fact is he lied to the Yankees, by signing a new contract and not telling them about the Mitchell investigation. He lied about his drug use. When he was caught he tearfully confessed. Now after being forgiven in a way that Clemens can never dream of, he is playing this crybaby game. It is very disappointing. So, he is Clemens with a personality and the sense to admit the truth AFTER being caught.
Pavi, I do..
Andy would be great to have right now, he’d make a perfect 4 guy.. Id love to go into the play offs with CC,AJ,Wang,Pettitte.. Sounds good to me
If the Yankees didn’t have any suspicions about any HGH use by Pettitte, it’s only because they chose to ignore it, since the first shots were administered at the Tampa complex. They knew about it.
It’s always the Tampa faction’s fault!
Apparently Pavano will get $6.8MM if he pitches a full season next year. At least one team thinks he’s worth it.
If the Indians think Pavano is worth $6.8MM, how is Andy not worth at least $10M? Of course he is, if not more.
My guess is the Yanks will still sign him, probably for more than $10M. I’m not putting much stock in rumors to the contrary.
If he doesn’t sign with the Yanks, some other team will sign him, again for at least $10MM, IMHO.
Any Yankee fan who knocks Andy on the belief that Andy owes the Yanks and should take whatever is offered by them, is an ingrate, again IMHO.
Over the course of Andy’s career in New York, he has given the Yanks their money’s worth, and then some. He’s shown heart and whatever a “true Yankee” is, Andy is that, and he will always be.
If he’s not here next year, I hope he does well wherever he goes. For me, the Stadium will be a poorer place without him and at least this fan will miss him.
*Aaron*
I Luv Andy but he’s not being fair with the Yankees .The Yankees are *more than generous with their offers.*
Joel Sherman is now reporting that the yankees are set to decrease their offer to pettite now that he’s rejected it.
He describes the $10M offer as being on “life support” and that it’s unlikely to be offered again.
This deal makes tons of sense for both sides but clearly this has gone past simply good business. Emotions are involved on both sides and that makes it less likely for a rational resolution to be reached.
I don’t know what Andy is doing here. It’s pretty clear the yankees are very upset over what happened last year. He’s not going to win a battle with the yankees and if goes and pitches elsewhere he’ll look terrible – and if this team wins the world series without him I’d have to guess he may well regret it for a long time.
http://blogs.nypost.com/sports.....to_lo.html
GB,
I gotta tell ya, I’d like to see them keep Swisher. He’s only 27, has good pop from both sides, sees a lot of pitches, and is a grinder. My kind of complimentary player. I think he can bounce back from his bad season of 2008.
I’d also like to see them keep Nady. Nady is a solid player. Not a superstar. Just a solid guy. You need guys like that in the lineup. They can’t have all stars at every position.
I’m not a huge Lastings Milledge fan. I just don’t like his act. Plus, I think he has some dog in him.
In a way, this Pettitte stuff screws up the Yankees a bit. Slotting him into the 4th spot in the rotation makes it easier to keep both Swisher and Nady.
Tell ya what though. If the Reds are interested in trading Aaron Harang, or even Johnny Cueto (who has an up and down relationship with Dusty), I’d look into that and use Nady, and one of the younger arms, as bait.
I’m really hung up in the Yankees being able to keep the depth they now possess. Its an older team and a long season. You can get guys enough AB’s rotating them around.
I hope they are able to keep these guys in place. At least to start the season.
GreenBeret7
That is a serious allegation. I doubt you can back it up.
So it is essentially slander, false rumour or any other label one puts on a lie.
I guess the saying my mother told me “you are who you hang out with” is pretty accurate.
and i agree with that, but the statement who want’s him, is not the right statement. I agree, he’s pissing me off also
If they lower the offer we can officially write off Pettitte as a Yankee.
Vrsce: I agree.
It’s disappointing, I had more faith in him than that.
Wouldn’t surprise me a bit if the Indians didn’t get all the Value out of cp that we didn’t get. Way luck has it to often.
sense we got our pitching, I say next year we put Jorge at DH and sign Victor Martinez if he makes the Market
Pavano is only guaranteed 1.5 million. He has to hit incentives he hasn’t hit in years to get his 6.8 million.
Pettitte’s offer was for 10 million guaranteed dollars.
He’s only hurting himself and nobody is paying Andy Pettitte 10 million to pitch next year.
Yanks need to keep Swisher and unless they get good value, keep Nady, too.
I wonder if the Yanks and Andy are mutually suffering from what my wife calls “testosterone poisoning”? This deal makes way too much sense to not happen. As a Yankee fan and an Andy Pettitte fan (and I am very disappointed in what he did), I hope it happens.
The Yankees have always been known to take care of their own. The fact that they are playing hardball with Andy is probably an indication of just how angry they were about last season and his non-disclosure about the Mitchell Report and the fact that he really had a below average season last year.
btw, at some point in this Pettitte drama, Sheets could come back to the Yanks with an incentive laden make good sort of one year offer that could slot him where he would be supplemented by Hughes, Aceves, Kennedy, Coke, etc.
Its really hard to blame Pavano for his injuries. I have to believe that he would have preferred to be healty, effective, and lead the Yankees to multiple rings.
However, based on media accounts and reports it is hard to like him.
I would REALLY REALLY like a chance to talk to him and make my own opinion.
I don’t believe the Yanks are really going to decrease their offer to Andy. I don’t believe they are all that upset about last year, either.
Nobody but some Yankee fans will hate Andy if he goes somewhere else. After all Andy has done with the Yanks, Yankee fans should not hate him either.
Since when do Yankee fans have to act like Red Sox fans?
I suspect this is all posturing. At the end of the day, Andy and the Yanks make more sense together than apart.
“Joel Sherman is now reporting that the yankees are set to decrease their offer to pettite now that he’s rejected it.”
Thats what im talking about. 5 mil plus incentives. Take it or leave it. This is a business and he will be the highest paid pitcher in the #4 slot there is. Are you in or out?Dont tell me that us fans that are upset about this are any less Yankee fans than the ones who are behind him. He was paid 16 mil last year and didnt pitch to his earnings. The Yankees didnt come knocking for a refund. 10 mil should be enough to feed his family.
SJ44
January 6th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
GB,
I gotta tell ya, I’d like to see them keep Swisher. He’s only 27, has good pop from both sides, sees a lot of pitches, and is a grinder. My kind of complimentary player. I think he can bounce back from his bad season of 2008.
————————————————————
I can’t say much about Milledge, other than watching a few games and a few stories about him having an occassional motivational issue. I’d much prefer keeping Swisher and moving Nady, mainly for Milledge covering ground in center field, and love the speed that he’s bring, replacing Abreu’s. Nady, they won’t keep any way, and after a quick start in NY, he tailed off badly. Thans for your view on it. Was just curious for another viewpoint.
SJ44-
My comment clearly said the Indians thought Pavano was worth $6.8MM IF he pitched all year. So yes, it included incentives and I think I acknowledged that.
If the Indians think Pavano is worth $6.8MM if he pitches all year, Andy will IMO get at least $10MM, if not more, on a one year guaranteed contract from some team.
He’s worth it.
Thanks, SJ44 – I didn’t hear that interview – I’m not usually tuned in to the radio much.
It certainly doesn’t make any sense for this to be going on in this way. And I bet if truth be told the Yankees, and maybe particularly Cashman, are a tad disappointed and would have a right to be.
You are right that the Yankees stood by Pettitte, but having signed him, I guess they kind of had to do that. But what Pettitte should really appreciate is the way the fans stood by him – they were under no contractual or financial obligation to do so. He was welcomed by most as if nothing had happened. He is loved here, for crying out loud, and he will not get that same thing pitching anywhere else. His agents are not going to think along those lines.
If it’s his agents (or family members) who are driving this, then I surely hope at some point he does the right thing and makes up his own mind. Pettitte is a good person, and apparently a pretty good mentor, but he is not a leader.
I still believe the Yankees should increase their offer, but if they don’t, they will have done nothing wrong. It will have been a poor decision by Pettitte.
10 million dollars to be a #4 starter is not being “hardline”. Its being quite generous.
Take a look at what #4 starters make in the game and you will see that offer is pretty darned good.
Tim Wakefield, who is to the Red Sox what Pettitte is to the Yankees (#4 starter, eat innings, longest tenured Red Sox, works with the younger players, solid all around guy) is making 4 million this year.
Its a great offer, more than he could get elsewhere, and he should take it. If he doesn’t, he will regret.
And yes, Andy does owe the Yankees for last year. If the Yankees wanted to, they could have made life a living hell for him last year after signing his contract under false pretenses.
If he doesn’t see that, I wish him well at his new stop and hope he can get the cash he is seeking. I think he will find the money isn’t out there for his services.
ASH: I don’t think anyone’s complaining so much about Pavano’s injuries as they are about the fact that he took his merry time recovering from them…
Vrsce
January 6th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
GreenBeret7
That is a serious allegation. I doubt you can back it up.
So it is essentially slander, false rumour or any other label one puts on a lie.
————————————————————
Oh, God…please don’t turn me in for a reward because I “slandered”.
The fact that Pettitte received the shots at the Tampa Comlex are in the Report.
I can just see it now: Pavano in a MUCH smaller market and playing with something to prove.
With out luck that will translate to him wining the freakin’ Cy Young.
This notion that Andy should accept $10M because he’s only slotted for the fourth starter slot makes no sense whatsoever.
I want to buy a BMW for my third car. BMW wants $45,000 for it, but that’s absurd. Don’t they understand I only want it for my third car? I wouldn’t pay more than $10,000 for that.
If the Yanks don’t want to pay $10M for a fourth starter, that’s their choice. But what the market price is for Andy doesn’t have too much to do with where the Yanks want to pitch him.
I guess we all agree Sheets is an injury risk and a great player and thats as far as it goes in regards to his health, reasons for Mil offering him arbitration, reasons for him leaving milwaukee and teams warranted or unwarranted suspicions about his current status.
What is obviously the main point of all of this is whether or not the yanks should take a shot on him and for how much assuming that andy does not come back to the yankees. Honestly, Aceves was a quality pitcher last season and I have waited to see hughes dominate the majors for years now. I would be content and excited to see the two of them fill the fifth spot. The only problem is that our pitching depth falls off all of a sudden as kennedy, coke and Geise would be left as the spot starters and real starters if an injury were to occur which I am not all that comfortable with. Additionally, Joba would have to be subbed in for or replaced after a certain number of innings thinning our pitching depth out even more. So while I wouldnt really mind the yanks sticking with aceves as their fifth starter out of spring training, I am a little nervous about the depth in the even of an injury (and they happen every single season).
So if andy isnt the answer and depth becomes a problem, could sheets fill the role and at what price? And if not sheets, who? I for one would sign sheets to an incentive laden deal. I would give him 8 million guaranteed with incentives and bonuses taking him all the way up to 15 million. Further, i would add a second year team option guaranteeing that it will be exercised if he remains healthy for the entire 2009 season. The second year could also have incentives and be worth about 15 million. The total would be 2 years and 30 million – probably the best offer he gets from a competitive team. But if he fails to remain healthy, the yanks are on the hook for only 8 million for one season. I think that is a small price to pay for the type of talent he has taking into account his risk. I also think there is a good chance he takes that deal at this point. I think it adds to our depth allowing aceves and the like to fulfill the backup roles, stay in the pen, sharpen their skills in the minors or fill the long reliever spot. Its not absolutely essential that we sign another starter but it certainly does stregnthen the rotation significantly while allowing room for injury to the rotation without devastating the team.
Wave Your Hat: the analogy would make sense if Pettitte was a BMW.
Right now, he’s more like a used Prius.
Okay, maybe that’s a little harsh, but you get my point.
“And yes, Andy does owe the Yankees for last year. If the Yankees wanted to, they could have made life a living hell for him last year after signing his contract under false pretenses.”
I seriously doubt it.
And, over all, the Yanks have gotten more from Andy than they have given him.
GB7
I am sure many crimes are committed in your immediate vicinity all the time. So you logic is just lame.
John Harper in today’s news:
“However, Yankee management was less than thrilled with Pettitte for signing to play the 2008 season without informing the club that he’d been contacted by investigators involved with the Mitchell Report last winter. ”
Obviously you have a source unavailable to Harper. Or did your keen detective work ferret it out? Most probably you made it up and threw it out for public consumption and are now defending your big lie. How Roger Clemens of you.
“Okay, maybe that’s a little harsh, but you get my point.”
No I don’t get your point.
You can argue exactly how good Andy is, but by any view he is an above average major league starter who has proved himself in the AL East. In 2007 he was one of the best pitchers in the majors.
You must be pretty young. Anybody who watched Andy from 1996 to 2001 could never have such little heart as to call him a used Prius.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Frankly, in yankees world, if burnett deserves 5 years and over 80 million. Certainly sheets could get 8 million guaranteed. Sheets may have some current injuries while Burnett does not but in the big picture – they are both very risky pitchers.
Jesus. Pettitte’s name was connected to the Report well before it was ever released. It was connected, falsely to The Grimsley Report. Whatever…continue with your hissy fit.
Well now we pretty much know which side leaked the story to Kepner at the Times. The Yanks are playing the media card with Andy.
Here is a question for those smarter than I (and someone who has kept up with the Clemens legal web regarding trials and legal bs) -
Even if Andy came back to the Yanks in 2009 could he get called away during the season to testify in any of Clemens legal mess(es)?
Wave Your Hat:
I was 10 in 1996.
That aside, historically, Pettitte has been great. We don’t win 1996-2000 without him.
However, in 2008, he was not great.
In some catergories, such as w/l, ERA and K’s, he posted career worsts or near career worsts, and he was worse as the season went on.
Was this because of an injury? Maybe, maybe not, but the fact is, we don’t know.
If the Yankees are going to take Andy back for 2009, they aren’t going to pay him for what he did ten years ago, because that won’t help the team _now_.
I love history. Heck, I’m a grad student in that subject. However, history won’t help Andy win games in 2009.
Sorry to repost from last thread but had to take a call and didnt see the new one.
I’m somewhat conflicted about Andy Pettitte.
On the one hand, last year he made 35 starts, 5th most in the AL. He led the Yanks in innings pitched and strikeouts and he was 2nd in wins. I can see why he balked at a 40% pay cut regardless of the millions. If it’s so easy to take the mound for 35 starts and pitch 204 innings then how come no one else on the roster could do it?
However,the Yanks did stand by him after his name came out in the Mitchell Report. It wasnt a good thing that Andy never told the Yankees that he had been interviewed by Mitchell. Worse, the burden of clearing his name distracted him from training as he had in the past. His second half performance can be attributed by the change in his training regime for this creature of habit.Perhaps the distraction of his current contract situation would affect him likewise this year.
I’d hope that when Andy Pettitte comes back to Yankee Stadium the fans remember him for all the good he’s done for the franchise. For years he was the home grown stalwart on a pitching staff of mercenaries like Wells and Clemens. I know I’ll applaud him and forive his trespasses.
GB7
Do not get your Depends in a knot or another crime will be committed in your vicinity.
You do not wish to admit being caught in a lie, fine. I merely pointed it out.
SJ – Wakefield’s contract is unique. Wakefield himself proposed a perpetual club option (renewable annually) for $4M. He likes the Boston area and playing with the Sox, and does a lot of good work in the community. His contract all but guarantees him a job as the 4/5 starter until he is 60 (more or less).
It’s devishly clever …. the contract is so good for the club that Wakefield is ensured a spot in Boston for the foreseeable future.
I’m not suggesting Pettitte should go in the same direction. The $10M certainly seems like a good deal, but some of the vitriol directed towards him seems excessive. I don’t see why deadlines and ultimatums are even involved. If the Yankees intend to stage a ST competition for the 5 spot, there’s no need to acquire another starter. Pettitte can test the waters, and come back to the Yankees if there’s no takers.
Or, it could be that the Yankees will use that $10M elsewhere, and want to free it up now. After Teixeira, I’ve come to expect the worse from those devious Pinstripers.
Gotten more out of Andy than he got out of them? He’s made over 100 million dollars playing baseball, most of that money with the Yankees.
He’s got 4 rings. Yeah, the Yankees haven’t done anything for him.
You seem to gloss over the fact that he lied to his employers about his HGH use. He signed a 16 million dollar contract last year, KNOWING he was going to get outed in the Mitchell Report, and didn’t tell the Yankees anything until AFTER he signed his deal.
Sorry, he owes the Yankees for that.
You think he’s going to get 10 million or more in this marketplace? Well, let’s see.
Most people on here felt Abreu was a lock to get 15-18 million a year for 3 years as a FA. How’s that working out.
Players are paid by the roles they have within the team. So, paying him as a #4 pitcher is EXACTLY how you determine his value. That’s how it works in baseball.
It was a generous offer and he turned it down. Now, let’s see what he gets on the open market.
He’s not nearly as valuable as you think he is to other teams.
Look at his numbers from last year. All significant pitching indicators were down significantly from 2007.
If he can grab a bigger deal, best of luck to him.
In turning down this offer however, his reptuation, at least among the Yankees, has taken yet another hit.
Rebecca, I don’t care how bad he was in 2008 (and he wasn’t that bad), IMO no Yankee fan should compare Andy to a used car in such a pejorative fashion. He deserves better than that.
If you look at Andy’ performance over the last two years, he’s worth $10MM, if not more. He was probably worth less than that last year, but way more than that in 2007.
Even if you assume he’s only got a one-third chance of being the pitcher he was in 2007, he’s worth more than $10MM.
The Yanks could really use him in the fourth starter slot, and they ought to be willing to pay him his market value.
Yeah watch the American Idle go out there and win 20 games now LOL. As far as what your saying about Petitte, let the guys they have battle it out, and your right Sheets may come back to them for less. The Yankees have good depth now and dont need to trade anyone. Did anyone notice how when Hal was asked today if they are done, there was a long pause and then he said you never know.
SJ: Do you think Andy was pitching hurt last season?
I can’t seem to remember if anyone actually ever admitted as much, but that might be because I have been distracted.
SJ I agree with most of what you say about Petite. I just hope he smartens up. The Yankees take care on thier own. This is about a lifetime, not one year. It seems right for him to open the New Stadium and usher in a new era. He should retire a Yankee.
“After Teixeira, I’ve come to expect the worse from those devious Pinstripers.”
The yankees devious? Not according to Peter Gammons. Gammons is now reporting that the Red Sox knew all along that Tex didn’t want to play for the Sox and they were simply in the bidding in order to drive up the price for the Yankees.
All of the Tex negotiations – including flying down to Dallas was planned in order to drive up the Yankees price.
Gammons is a gem.
Brian ( Red Sox fan)
“After Teixeira, I’ve come to expect the worse from those devious Pinstripers.”
Thanks, we resemble that remark
I believe the word of the day is “stealth”. lol
You can’t pay players for what they did 10 years ago Wave.
Andy Pettitte has not been paid as a pauper by the Yankees.
His role with the team for 2009 is MUCH different than it was in 2007.
He’s also not the same pitcher. So, you adjust his deal accordingly.
Again, it gets down to value. Every player on the roster has a salary slot. The Yankees allocated more money to him as the #4 starter than any team has for their #4 starters in the game.
Its not an embarrassing offer. Its excessively generous.
Its within his rights to turn it down. Its also within the Yankees rights to turn the page.
Hopefully, he comes to his senses and takes the deal. If not, he’s going to find out quickly the dollars he is seeking (13-14 million per season) isn’t there for him.
I’m sure someone already ventured to say it, but the Indians got a good deal with Pavano. Low risk, decent upside, and limited sunk costs if he is a disaster once again.
“Right now, he’s more like a used Prius.”
Rebecca,
You always catch me off gaurd with your humor. Good seeing you in here more often.
Impartial verdict: the use of “BMW” in the anaology is suspect but the point itself is sound.
The Yankees are free to get one of those $4 million 4th starters if they want to, but Andy might (and the hope is that he would) pitch more like a 2/3 starter behind what we hope will be our 3 Aces and in front of our budding Ace Jr.
Andy in that rotation *could* make it much stronger than Mr. Replacement 4th starter. Wave Your Hat is correct that Andy coming back is still a desirable and sensible result.
As for the money, I really don’t care. If they can get him for less and that helps with future moves, good for them. If Andy can get more without inhibiting future moves, good for him. Until it’s over, I hold out hope.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Staying to write the story
January 6th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
SJ: Do you think Andy was pitching hurt last season?
I can’t seem to remember if anyone actually ever admitted as much, but that might be because I have been distracted.
————————————————————
That wasthe reason for the series of MRIs that Pettitte had at the end of the season…to see if there was any structural damage. He had the MRIs about the same time as Rivera. No structural damage…just inflammation.
Then again if Andy is and stays healthy, he is another teams 2-3 starter. He had six or eight starts last year that maybe he shouldn’t have. Week or two of rest may haave made a difference in the old w-l. In the 5 hole he could easily win 16 if healthy not to mention the innings the guy eats. So in Andys case mabe ten is jusst a bit cheap, maybe not, health makes the difference likely. Personally I want the dude back. Time will tell i guess.
SJ44,
Let’s see. Andy played his first two years at the major league minimum, and was underpaid for the next four. I don’t think it’s possible for the Yanks to have made that up last year.
It doesn’t matter that the Yanks paid him $100MM or whatever. The question is, did they get their money’s worth?
The answer is yes they did, and then some. And those four rings? I think Andy earned them. A lot of guys have those rings because of contributions from Andy, too.
You say a lot of good things, but you can be such a Yankee management shill. Yankee management is not always right.
Rebecca,
He pitched with a tired shoulder the last 6 weeks of the season. Props to him for doing so.
Derek Jeter played two and a half months with a broken hand and said nothing about it all year.
Arod played at about 70% all year. He quad was never fully healed after he hurt it.
Its part of the game.
Wave, Pettitte is getting MORE than market value for his spot on the roster. He’s 37, on the downside of his career, and is a #4 starter.
Take a look around at what those guys earn. It isn’t 10 million per season.
All of his pitching numbers were way off last year. The league hit at or over .300 against him. Righties pummeled him.
He didn’t have a good year. Despite that, the Yankees offered him a deal that is still the highest offer in the marketplace for his services.
He’s been a free agent for awhile now. The Hendricks Brothers, very good agents, have shopped him aggressively. They have no offers. What does that tell you?
Drive 4-5 … no MLB team, including the Sox, is going to get on their high horse about “standing by” players after they are outed on PED use. And no MLB team was ever going to try to get a contract voided.
Any such action would have led to a very nasty mess over who knew hom much about what when contracts were offered in the first place. MLB teams were never going to play the “I’m shocked, shocked” card when some of their top PED performers were discredited. It was a funny line in “Casablanca,” but an insult to intelligence in post-PED MLB.
If the Yankees backed of on Giambi, they weren’t touching Pettitte. Not a slam on the Yankees …. everyone is in the same boat. If you’re part of the conspiracy, don’t accuse the co-conspirators.
I am watching the press conference from today. It is amazing. He is going to fit perfectly into this line up and even add some much needed child-like enthusiasm and love for the sport of baseball.
He is genuinely happy and excited to be a Yankee. This is going to be a great season.
YANKEES!
Wave Your Hat: I’m pretty sure Andy’s been called plenty worse.
My point was simply that he wasn’t a shiny new, third year, top of the rotation starter just entering his prime.
Anyway, Priuses are pretty awesome cars in my book. (shrugs)
But I have to also call a foul on Wave for hoping the Yankees pay Pettitte market value: that amount is still TBD, no?
“Gammons is a gem.”
To quote something from a site-that-shall-not-be-named (cannot be named here, actually):
“I could’ve sworn Gammons reported that he SIGNED with the Red Sox.”
Apparently we just signed John Rodriguez.
http://blogs.nypost.com/sports....._john.html
I’m not being a management shill. I’m just not a fanboy overstating the contributions of a guy who lied to his employers, pitched poorly for the second half of last year, and then lied again when he said, “its not about the money, I want to pitch for the Yankees in 2009″, and now is showing it is about the money.
Its not that complicated. He was offered more money for his role on the team, than anybody in baseball. He turned it down.
Now, he gets the chance to sell himself to the highest bidder. Let’s see what he gets.
You think he will get more than 10 million. I don’t. Let’s see how it shakes out.
“The Yanks could really use him in the fourth starter slot, and they ought to be willing to pay him his market value.
Wave,
I agree with you that where the yankees decide to slot Pettite in the rotation isn’t an issue.
But what I do think is an issue is whether Pettitte will be valued in the market place as a 4th starter given his performance last year and his age.
I think the yankees are assessing his future performance and value along those parameters. After last year they no longer feels he’s a #1,2 or 3 pitcher. They see him as a back end guy.
Now of course Andy feels that he’s more of a front end guy and that’s the crux of this disagreement. That and the emotional issue that are brewing between the two sides (rightly or wrongly I do think the yankees feel Pettite was non-transparent last year at best and lied to them at worst; Pettitte feels insulted by the offer).
The real question now is what Andy’s true market value is right now. No one can fully say at this point as it appears that Andy has not received any serious offers besides the yankees.
Pettitte’s agent’s leaking that 3yr/36M mystery offer publicly was clearly not a good sign for Andy.
Until he has any other offers other than $10/1 yr that is his going market rate.
Pictures of our new friend:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....otogallery
S.O.S.: Glad someone got it!
GB and SJ: Thanks. I was so caught up in my coursework at the end of the season that I went a couple weeks without even reading anything Yankees at all (I know, I know, I have no life…)
Wave Your Hat: You seem to forget that Andy actually _left_ the Yankees for a few years. So I don’t really think the Yankees owe him, here.
Andy has earned himself a plaque in Monument Park for 1996-2000, but that won’t help the Yankees win in 2009.
CB – I saw the Gammons piece, and didn’t interpret it that way. To paraphrase, he said that the Sox were used as a “stalking horse” (that’s a quote) by Boras to drive up the price on the Yankees.
Gammons did NOT say that the Sox cagily drove up the price. His piece implied that they were played.
If you’re going to criticize a reporter, try to accurately replicate the report. You know, credibility, and all that …..
I wonder if this John Rodriguez signing means that they are in fact intent on trading Nady or Swish or Matsui.
I hope we can at least give Swish a shot. That trade, long forgotten after 3 major free agents, was the kind of move I’d like to see the Yankees make more of.
Huh! I didn’t realize ARod was playing hurt most of the year.
But it makes sense – I hurt my quad about 5 weeks ago, and while it (a) certainly wasn’t the injury ARod had, I did have to stop my workouts for a few weeks, and (b) even now, though it’s better, it still aches every once in a while.
Andy kept saying the second half of the season that his arm did NOT hurt and he was at a loss to explain why he was ineffective. In fact, he kept saying he felt good, his elbow felt good. Maybe the MRIs were just a precautionary measure? That the Yankees weren’t so sure he did feel all right? Or did Pettitte just not want to say he was pitching hurt? Makes no difference, really. He was ineffective either way.
Such an awkward situation this has become. But I did think it was interesting that in Kim Jones’ interview of Cashman this afternoon, he said he would rather characterize the situation as neither side having accepted the position of the other, rather than a rejection of the Yankees offer by Pettitte. He also went out of his way to say that there was still mutual respect on both sides and both sides were aware how they felt about each other (and the impression made was that that was that they felt good about each other). So, it’s not impossible that something could be done, but perhaps not very probable at this point.
It’s sad.
The Dodgers are looking for pitchers, and I’m sure Pettitte would love to pitch for Torre’s team. But I don’t know if the Dodgers would offer him what the Yankees already have, and then there’s how his family would feel about living in California. I thought that where his family lived was a major issue for Pettitte.
Ach! I’m getting tired of this.. Anyone else?
Rodiguez will give NYY some extra depth in the system if they do trade one of Swisher or Nady. He can hit.
CB,
I caught that Gammons comment on Sportscenter. Priceless.
Two weeks ago come Thursday, Gammons waxed poetic on how Theo had “planned for 2 years to sign Mark Teixiera”.
Talked about how it was going to change the Sox forever.
Now, “the Red Sox were never going to sign him”.
Well, it cost approx. $22,000 each way to go from Boston to Dallas on a private jet.
That’s a lot of money to spend for 6 hours of flying (plus meeting time) time with a guy they who was “never going to sign with the Red Sox”.
He’s amazing.
Only thing left for him to do now is do his reports wearing a Red Sox uniform.
He would have more credibility if he did so.
“But I have to also call a foul on Wave for hoping the Yankees pay Pettitte market value: that amount is still TBD, no?”
OK, I’ll hold my hand up on that one.
I’m done for the day, but in parting:
Andy may be a fourth starter on the Yanks, but overall he’s not a fourth starter. I’m at least confident there are more than one or two teams who will see it that way.
If starters are paid for their rotation slot, the Yanks sure overpaid for AJ.
But starters aren’t paid by their “slot”. They are paid by their ability.
Andy underperformed in 2008, granted. But he was a major league average starter, pitching in the AL East. And in every other year, he’s been better.
The Yanks offered him $10MM, and IMO they ought to kiss and make up and settle their differences. I think they will.
I think people who think he is worth less than $10MM have some agenda I’m not buying into. But only time will tell, I guess.
Brian,
I fully apologize for misinterpreting Gammons quote. When I heard the “stalking horse” quote I took it in a very different way than how you described.
Usually when one is described as a stalking horse it implies that that party is the one who is acting in a cagey, stealth manner. The stalking horse is the one that is acting under some kind of false pretext and hide’s its own intentions.
So if Gammons was using stalking horse to say that it was the red sox who were played that would be a very odd way to use the term.
If the red sox were played it was Boras who was acting as the stalking horse – not the sox.
“The Dodgers are looking for pitchers, and I’m sure Pettitte would love to pitch for Torre’s team. But I don’t know if the Dodgers would offer him what the Yankees already have”
I could easily see four-rings pressuring management into signing Andy. If they do, that’s one more team that won’t be involved in the Perez bidding, further reducing his price tag as we look for alternatives.
Brina, I’ve loved Gammons writing and reporting since I went to UMO in ’76, but you have to admit that the guy is totally in the Red Sox camp.
Errr, make the Brian…
Doreen,
The Yankees are taking great pains to keep the negotiations, at least their public comments on them, with Pettitte as positive as possible.
They aren’t looking to diss him. They want the guy back.
They won’t however, go higher on their offer. I think its highly doubtful it will happen.
If both sides can’t come to an agreement, while unfortunate, it will hurt Andy more than the Yankees.
Andy is a guy that likes the same routine. He still has the desire to pitch.
Now, he has to go to a new place and start over. That’s not going to be easy.
If he retires, after telling everybody he’s going to pitch this year, he will be restless as hell all year.
Hopefully, they work things out. But, time’s a wastin’. They have to fill that slot in the rotation.
If its not going to be with Pettitte, they have to know soon and look to find somebody to fill the role.
I took the Prius comment as a car that can give you alot of miles per gallon, but lacks power. Did i miss read it?
“Two weeks ago come Thursday, Gammons waxed poetic on how Theo had “planned for 2 years to sign Mark Teixiera”.”
SJ,
I still don’t get why Boston would leak this to Gammons before signing Tex. Gammons clearly didn’t make this up – but he’ll just report anything he’s told by his Boston sources. So someone told him this. Why they would jump the gun like that is really beyond me.
It’s as if Boston was trying to get ahead of the curve and construct a media narrative around their imminent signing of Tex that would focus more on the implicit genius of their front office rather than on the gobs of money they were going to be paying him.
At Torre’s charity dinner this year, he was asked about Andy signing with the Dodgers. This was his quote:
“That’s not going to happen”.
Very, very doubtful he ends up in LA.
S.o.S.: You were pretty much spot on.
SJ – Can anyone hear understand English?
Your Gammons quote, “The Red Sox were never going to sign him,” is accurate. It was utterd in the context of Teixeira’s press conference, where Teixeira himself said he knew two weeks before Christmas that he was going to the Yankees.
In that context, “The Red Sox were never going to sign him” means “The Red Sox had no chance to sign him.” And Teixeira himself all but said that.
I know this is just a blog, but deliberately (or accidentally) misinterpreting other people’s utterances is dirty pool. Gammons has his faults, but today’s reporting wasn’t one of them. Unfortunately, the long knives that followed only serve to further pre-conceived notions.
oops … “hear” = here
Whos this rodriguez guy?
“At Torre’s charity dinner this year, he was asked about Andy signing with the Dodgers. This was his quote:
“That’s not going to happen”.”
I thought the context of that quote was that he expected Andy to return to the Yanks?
SJ44 -
This is just not how this was supposed to be…
I’m watching Hot Stove on MLBtv. What is the pre-occupation with Teixeira’s slow starts? They’re making it sound like it will be impossible for him to play in NY because the fans will be on his back if he doesn’t start off hot.
I don’t know – I’m sure there will be fans who will react like that. But, he did address this at his press conference today. I was satisfied with his answer, because, really, there’s no REAL answer and a least he tried to explain it and he did not hem and haw. And, then there’s all this advance notice that he might get off to a slow start and that it’s got precedence in his career – so maybe people won’t get all upset (unless the slow start turns into a slow middle). And are we NY fans really that bad????????
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Staying to write the story
January 6th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
S.O.S.: Glad someone got it!
GB and SJ: Thanks. I was so caught up in my coursework at the end of the season that I went a couple weeks without even reading anything Yankees at all (I know, I know, I have no life…)
Wave Your Hat: You seem to forget that Andy actually left the Yankees for a few years. So I don’t really think the Yankees owe him, here.
Andy has earned himself a plaque in Monument Park for 1996-2000, but that won’t help the Yankees win in 2009.
————————————————————
No problem, Rebecca. However, the idea that you’d put your own personal goals ahead of the team is just beyond me. No wonder the Yanks didn’t win. You were more concerned about your own future rather than what’s best for the team. We lost because of a few extra rah-rahs.
CB,
I think the Red Sox were caught up in two things. One, having the national media talk about how “smart” they were in getting Tex. Two, one upping the Yankees.
Fact is, they, like a lot of people (myself included) believed the Yankees were out of the bidding for him.
There was ZERO scuttlebutt in the industry about Tex and the Yankees. I mean ZIPPO.
Nobody talked from Tex’s side or the Yankee side. No leaks, no nothing. Looking back, that’s quite impressive!
I think the Sox got caught up in believing they were the frontrunners (the people I know with the Yankees felt for a long time he would sign with Boston) for him, and wanted that message out.
In a way, they tried to do what the Yankees did with Sabathia. Leaked the offer to show other teams, “don’t even try” to get this guy.
Unfortunately for them, the Yankees decided to jump in and got the deal done.
I just don’t want to have to keep seeing Gammons looking sad. I don’t have a heart of stone, you know.
GB,
back to what we were saying last night about the Cardinals would trading for one of their OFers for a closer quality arm. I mentioned that Veras and Ramirez would do well in the NL. I was thinking perhaps trading them to the Cardinals for either Brendan Ryan (utilty role), or Joe Mather (OF, 1b &3B)? What you think?
SJ44 -
If the Red Sox were trying to send out that message, they really needed to put the money behind the offer, which is how the Yankees got the message out there – with the $$$$.
“Brian Cashman said Phil Coke has been told to prepare to come to camp to work as a starter.”
Sweet.
Harold Reynolds is bent on saying the Yanks won’t (may not) win the world series.
Coming up on mlb.tv Hot Stove (channel 213 directtv).
I don’t know what his issue is!
GB: The guys over at “It is High, It is Far…” actually said of me in a recent post that I had no life and used this blog as my life support…
CB – apology accepted …. and neither of us has the advantage of having the printed text in fromt of us. But a “stalking horse” ALWAYS has to be used by someone else – pretty hard to be your own stalking horse.
I’m absolutely sure (well, 99.9%) that Gammons was saying that the Sox were played, that the Yankees always had the inside track, and that Teixeira’s own press conference cystallizes that point. Remember, he referenced the press conference as his “source.” If you heard the same Teixeira quotes that I heard, Gammons is spot on in his interpretation of them.
“I just don’t want to have to keep seeing Gammons looking sad. I don’t have a heart of stone, you know.”
Gammons sad = SMILES for the Evil Empire
My stones say let him stay sad for much much longer.
Rebecca,
I saw that. its full of crap.
da yanks sign john rodriguez
“Wave Your Hat: You seem to forget that Andy actually left the Yankees for a few years. So I don’t really think the Yankees owe him, here.”
“Andy has earned himself a plaque in Monument Park for 1996-2000, but that won’t help the Yankees win in 2009.”
Yes, yes, yes.
Brian,
The day after it was announced Tex agreed to a deal with the Yankees, Gammons was on Mike and Mike and said it was a “hoax” that he was going to Boston.
Come on. ESPN, led by a Gammons report, said Tex signing with the Red Sox was “imminent”. Buster Olney, a very good reporter who worked with Gammons on the story, said numerous times Tex signing with the Red Sox was a “foregone conclusion”.
Now, the Boston spin is, “He was never going to sign with Boston”. That’s changing history after the fact.
They went to his home in Dallas to close the deal. When Boras said, “we have higher offers on the table than your 170 million”, they left and John Henry said they were “out” of the bidding.
Yet, they weren’t “out” of the bidding. They raised their offer to 173 million AFTER saying they were “out”.
They thought they had him and they lost him over a few bucks in the grand scheme of things.
Its great their the spin now is, “they were never going to sign him”. Unfortunately though, that’s not true.
If they raised their offer at that meeting in Dallas, the Yankees wouldn’t have ever been able to bid.
Especially since Cashman didn’t make an offer to Tex until December 23, 5 days after the Sox meeting with in Dallas with Tex.
Rebecca, that post on “It is High…” was lol funny. Everyone should check it out, it rips on Sam I Am in a most glorious way.
Throw 12 million to Moose for one year to come out of retirement. That would really hit Andy hard.
Who in hell cares about Peter Gammons and what he says and does?
Oops sorry. You do Brian!
Nick,
I forgot…where you mentioned?
S.o.S., John Rodriguez was an outfielder in theYankee system for years. He signed with the Cards a few years ago and played in the ’05 post season for them. Left handed bat, decent power and decent corner outfielder, left handed bat. Almost 330 at bats and a .298 average, 7 homers 43 RBI. Walks some, doesn’t strike out, a litte speed.
I’m getting tired of these Yankee discussions where they basically cut Al Leiter off without letting him get his full point across. It’s, yet again, a negative take on anything Yankees. Sad, sad, sad.
And the trouble is YES doesn’t really counter-program this. Except for endless repeats of Yankees classics and Yankeeographies, there’s nothing. (Maybe because I don’t follow basketball). YES is a lazy station.
Andy will not get a plaque in the park guys Im sorry to say. If had stayed with them for his whole career he would have had a fighting chance, but when he went to Houston and lost out on those wins that would have moved up the all-time Yankee list he lost his chance.
“The Yankees have always been known to take care of their own. The fact that they are playing hardball with Andy is probably an indication of just how angry they were about last season and his non-disclosure about the Mitchell Report and the fact that he really had a below average season last year.”
I agree Fran.
By the way, is anyone her actually trying to assert that the Sux did not want Teixeira??????
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
…if so.
“Especially since Cashman didn’t make an offer to Tex until December 23, 5 days after the Sox meeting with in Dallas with Tex.”
SJ
That may be true but Boras and Cashman had to have had some “neighborhood discussions” prior to that for Boras to know they were really in.
pettitte is lucky that the yanks are willing to pay him 10 million. He has absolutely no leverage because it is clear he would really only want to play in NY. He was atrocious the second half of last season and considering age, who knows if he will turn that trend around next season? And im not even going to delve into the HGH lies.
Frankly, pettitte should jump at the opportunity and thank his lucky stars that the yanks are even willing to go all the way to 10 mil. He is being greedy and stubborn. If he wants more than 10 mil goodbye and good luck.
I was not mentioned, Ed. The “life support” joke was a tiny part of the post. It was very, very funny.
Yeah, looking at Torre’s quotes from just a month ago, it’s hardly rock solid.
“I don’t think that’s going to happen,” Torre said Thursday, in a telephone interview.
“I talked to Andy,” Torre said. “His agent had called the Dodgers to find out about interest, and that’s when I called him. I had talked to Andy much earlier, asking him to come to my (Safe at Home) Foundation dinner. He was always married to the Yankees, the excitement playing for the Yankees.
“I called him only because his agent called (Dodgers’ GM) Ned (Colletti). I certainly would’ve kicked myself (if I hadn’t called). He never said no to anything, but just from talking to him, I know the Yankees are his first choice. *I wasn’t about to talk him out it*, knowing Andy like I do.”
Colletti obviously asked Torre to put in a call. And the Yankee preference seemed to be the only obstacle. I wouldn’t close that door just yet.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Staying to write the story
January 6th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
GB: The guys over at “It is High, It is Far…” actually said of me in a recent post that I had no life and used this blog as my life support…
————————————————————
90% of this board resembles that remark, Rebecca.
“But a “stalking horse” ALWAYS has to be used by someone else – pretty hard to be your own stalking horse.
I’m absolutely sure (well, 99.9%) that Gammons was saying that the Sox were played,”
Brian,
I agree with what you said about a stalking horse – that’s exactly why I was confused by what Gammons said.
Your interpretation makes sense. But honestly no one here was just trying to malign gammons.
He was far from clear and picked an amazingly circuitous way of saying something relatively simple. Mixing metaphors is weird ways isn’t the most efficient way of reporting.
Believe me – no one needs to harp on any one example when it comes to Gammons to make a point about how he’s turned from a once outstanding reporter into something entirely different.
Sorry, link:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com.....1926.story
Donnie Baseball – I guess I’m one of the few who truly don’t care about Pettitte and what happens. I think of him as pretty greedy at this point. I guess he didn’t realize how badly he sucked during the 2nd half and how he helped walk the Yankees away from the pennant or wild card.
Yeah, I’d say that’s worth about $16 mil. He should be on his christian knees thanking the good Lord that the Yankees signed him despite the bad press he garnered himself and the Yankees in turn in the Mitchell Report. So he thanks them by saying “I didn’t do the job I wanted to last season and I sure didn’t do the job the Yankees signed me to do, so I can understand why they wouldn’t offer me the kind of contract reserved for pitchers who really make the grade, especially those who aren’t over the hill.” Oh he didn’t say that? Sorry.
Here’s my point in all this. You go to Dallas, and have the guy in the room this late in the process, you are going there to close the deal.
This isn’t their first rodeo with Scott Boras. They know his game. Instead of leaving there with the deal done, they decided to call Boras’ bluff.
That allowed the Yankees to get back into the deal. That’s not being “played” by Boras or Teixiera. That’s outsmarting yourself and blowing the deal.
No spin can change that fact. Their final offer was 173 million dollars. The Yankees paid him 180. They lost him over 7 million bucks.
If they offered 180 in that 12/18 meeting and said the offer was off the table if they leave the house without a deal, they probably have a deal done. They didn’t do that and they only have themselves to blame for that.
Nick you were mentioned on another Yankee blog, good press this time.
update >>>>>>
Trisha what are you talking about?? I was replying to a post. I gave my reasons why he wont have a plaque. Where did I say give him 16$ million ? I dont remember saying that
SJ – now you’ve deliberately mischaracterized my comments, as well as Gammons’.
My earlier post never defended anything Gammons said about the proximity of the Teixeira signing (by the Sox). I was trying to correct CB’s variant of TONIGHT’s Gammons’ piece, which was largely based on TODAY’s Teixeira press conference.
Gammons was saying that, in retrospect, the Sox had no chance to sign Teixeira. I believe that Teixeira is considerd a primary source in sports journalism, and I heard what he said, and Gammons accurately opined based on what Teixeira had said five hours before.
I don’t see how I can be any clearer. Please don’t clutter my attempts at linear thought with premises that I do not espouse.
CB – Wikipedia “Stalking Horse” … “a person who tests a concept with someone … on behalf of a third party.” The Sox were the unwitting third party on behalf of Boras.
GB7,
Thanks for the info on Rodriguez. Do you know how old hes around and will he help the big league team?
“Wouldn’t it be something if Pavano faced the Yankees at the Stadium in April?”
That will be the only month it could happen – he’ll be on DL by April 21st…
Brian,
Your premise though is not true. They DID have a chance to sign him. They had to raise their offer in order to do so.
The Yankees didn’t offer him a deal until 5 days after the meeting in Boston.
Yes, Boston was probably not his first choice. The Yankees weren’t CC Sabathia’s first choice.
That doesn’t mean anything. You have the guy in the room, you close the deal. They didn’t do that.
This, “they never had a shot” at him is BS.
They had him in the room and didn’t close the sale.
Brian,
Stalking horse from Webster’s dictionary:
1 : a horse or a figure like a horse behind which a hunter stalks game 2 : something used to mask a purpose 3 : a candidate put forward to divide the opposition or to conceal someone’s real candidacy
So yes Gammons using that odd metaphor could easily be construed as him suggesting that the Sox were “masking their purpose” and that they themselves were the ones acting as the stalking horse trying to drive up the price on Tex.
Either way as you said we don’t have a printed copy of what he said so it’s just a matter of trying to piece together an poorly used metaphor by a sports reporter on TV.
If I misinterpreted it as I said that’s fine and I apolgized.
Buddy: link?
Brian,
And as an aside – if the bidding on Tex had gotten to $200M or so I don’t think the yankees would have put in a bid.
I think Tex’s price fell back into what they thought was a reasonable deal for him and they pounced.
I’ll believe that Tex had a strong preference to play for the yanks from the beginning.
But the idea that a franchise of the caliber and resources of the Sox had “no chance” to sign Tex is absurd. There’s no way it was such an absolute situation. And all free agents have their preferences for teams they’d like to play for.
It was Sabathia’s preference to play for the Angels or the Dodgers. But that didn’t happen.
The Sox could have played it the same way with Tex but they chose not to – they chose to say the Boras was bluffing, assuming they were leaving Tex with the choice of either taking their generous offer or playing for the nationals for more money and suffer from the losing.
The sox framed this as if they were doing Tex a favor – that they were always going to have the best offer and he’d eventually have to take it.
They were wrong. It happens – even to geniuses.
SJ – don’t believe me; believe Teixeira. By the time he was finished with his press conference, it was clear that he was only going to sign with the Yankees.
That might be at variance with your unadulterated glee at having outfoxed the Sox, but Teixeira himself made it clear that both he and his wife were going with the Yankees, and they were absolutely sure of it two weeks before Christmas. (The Henry plane trip was one week before Christmas.)
That’s what Teixeira said, and that the chronlogy of events.
Did you hear the PC? My English degree goes back a few years, so maybe the vehicles of communication have changed. Do we use Bizzaro English now?
Brian,
I did hear the PC. Don’t get upset because your genius crew in Boston botched the deal.
They had the guy in the room and didn’t close the sale.
As CB and I both said, a players #1 priority doesn’t mean squat.
Its about closing the sale. The numbers for him went down to a level that made the Yankees want to get into the bidding.
However, had the Red Sox closed the sale in their Dallas meeting, there wouldn’t have been a Yankee offer.
That’s my point.
But hey, if you want to believe the Sox were never going to sign him, fine by me.
CB – once the Yankees got the twinkle in their eye, the view here in NE is that they would have gone to $200M, if need be. They made only one “bid,” and it was after the Red Sox offer was shopped to them. I think if the Sox offer had been $190M, they would have trumped it. But, obviously, that’s pure conjecture..
As I said earlier today, I think Teixeira became like that state-of-the art driver that you finally buy after browsing through the pro shop for the fourth time. Just can’t pass it up.
Think I’ll go check on Boston Legal re-runs …. might help me with my debating skills.
I think Angel Borroa should hand his R.O.Y. award to Matsui when he gets here. Matsui in turn sketches it out and gives him the art work. Its only fair.
Brian,
Just because a player decides where he most wants to play doesn’t mean that he is going to have the opportunity to play there.
That happens all of the time in free agency. All of the time.
Look at Pettitte – there’s no doubt that his preference is overwhelmingly to play for the yankees. But that may not happen.
Just because Tex and his wife decided that they’d prefer to play for the yankees doesn’t mean that the Sox had “no chance.”
That kind of absolutism is just implausible. Two weeks before christmas the yankees didn’t even have an offer on the table so how could the Sox have “no chance.”
The Sox are doing massive damage control on this now – for weeks they were leaking stories about how they had targeted Tex for two years ago and his signing would be the culmination of all of their rational planning. They got the hopes up of all red sox fans and also kept saying over and over in their leaks that Tex was an extravagant expenditure – no his acquisition was different – he was a must have to bolster an aging line up. And many if not most Sox fans bought into that logic.
Caffardo and McAdams used phrases like the sox “lusting” after tex and being willing to “do anything” to sign him.
Then the deal gets blown up and suddenly they have “no chance” and the evidence of that is that Tex’s strong preference was to play for the yankees.
What was it you said earilier in the day about fans not buying into everything a team was saying…
The only stalking horse i know is Mr. Ed with a lisp.
Cb – if it weren’t for Teixeira’s PC I’d be totally agreeing with you. Previously, I thought the Sox were being cheap, and botched the negotiations.
But Teixeira was pretty absolutist himself today. Perhaps he was going overboard on his outreach to the Yankee fans, but his own reconstruction of the bargaining process made it clear that he was going to the Yankees.
I’m sure Boras wishes that he had been a little less forthcoming about his mindset during “the process,” because his own client was saying, in effect, that the other teams who were involved were being played.
Might not be the reality, but it’s hard to draw any other inference from the PC.
“But Teixeira was pretty absolutist himself today. Perhaps he was going overboard on his outreach to the Yankee fans, but his own reconstruction of the bargaining process made it clear that he was going to the Yankees.”
Brian,
After hearing so many of these yankee press conferences I can tell you that what Tex said wasn’t that particularly different than what most free agents say.
Look – I will definitely buy that his strong preference was to play for the yankees. But I think the best evidence of this was in the timeline of this signing.
Tex got that $180M offer from the yankees and didn’t even try to allow the Sox to outbid the yankees.
So sure I fully believe that he really wanted to be the sox if the offers were close.
But that’s really not that much different than CC really wanting to be an Angel if the offers were remotely close.
But the Angels decided not to bid as they put all their eggs in the Teixeira basket and lost.
I’d also say that if one team truly had minimal chance to sign tex it was the Angels – not the sox. As long as the Sox had a comparable offer I do think Tex would have come East.
In fact this was reported and touted in the boston media as a prime reason why he would likely be on the Sox.
But there’s an enormous difference between having a strong preference and just dismissing the second most attractive bidder out of hand and saying they had “no chance.”
That just doesn’t wash at all. There’s no way Tex could do that without a solid market rate offer from the yankees on the table – and that only came on the day he signed.
Strong preference for the yankees just does not mean all other teams had “no chance.” It’s clear that the Sox had a much better chance than the Angels did based on geography for example.
I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions from the press conference. It was clear he preferred playing for the yankees. I think that’s just about all you can reasonably conclude from what was said.
The distance between strong preference and “no chance” is pure spin.
Thinking back on it, the Sox’ position with Tex was much like the Yank’s position with Manny. The net value to the Sox was reduced because Tex would have replaced someone, like Lowell, who could really play. Much like Manny replacing Matsui if we were to sign him.
The analogy isn’t exact, because Tex would be signed for a much longer contract than Manny, but I think the point holds.
Tex was 100% positive value to us, and less than 100% to the Sox. So it’s not surprising the Yanks were the high bidder vis-a-vis the Sox.
He was just worth more to us than to them.
Brian (Red Sox Fan)
January 6th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
“CB – once the Yankees got the twinkle in their eye, the view here in NE is that they would have gone to $200M, if need be.”
Excuse me Brian, but I live in NE along with a lot of other Yankee fans. You don’t speak for New England,just the Red Sox Nation.Most of us do not believe the Yankees would have gone to $200mil. Neither Boston or New York were going that high.I believe the Yankees interest became more serious when it became evident that if Tex wanted $200mil he would have had to take it from the Nats.
By all accounts, the Yankees never made a formal offer until the player instructed his agent to contact the Yankees about their potential interest. At that point,Tex’s choices were the Red Sox $170mil or the Nat’s $200mil.
“Thinking back on it, the Sox’ position with Tex was much like the Yank’s position with Manny. The net value to the Sox was reduced because Tex would have replaced someone, like Lowell, who could really play.”
But I also think this is why there were so many leaks about why Tex wasn’t in fact an “extravagance” for the Sox but a true “need.”
This is why we were hearing so many stories about how the Sox were eyeing Tex for two years and how once the Sox targeted a player they would “do anything” to sign him, why we were hearing so many stories about how Tex was a real need because the Sox line up was aging badly and they couldn’t count on Papi or Lowell.
That way signing Tex wouldn’t look like an extravagant use of the Sox copious financial resources but a rational decision made on long term organizational prerogatives and needs.
In the end though if you bid $170M on a player it’s tough to go back and say you don’t “need” him a lot.
Drive 4-5 ….. that’s a kick in the bitt. I thought that I WAS authorized to speak for sports fans in NE. Are you sure that I’m not?
“Thinking back on it, the Sox’ position with Tex was much like the Yank’s position with Manny. The net value to the Sox was reduced because Tex would have replaced someone, like Lowell, who could really play.”
But I also think this is why there were so many leaks about why Tex wasn’t in fact an “extravagance” for the Sox but a true “need.”
This is why we were hearing so many stories about how the Sox were eyeing Tex for two years and how once the Sox targeted a player they would “do anything” to sign him, why we were hearing so many stories about how Tex was a real need because the Sox line up was aging badly and they couldn’t count on Papi or Lowell.
That way signing Tex wouldn’t look like an extravagant use of the Sox copious financial resources but a rational decision made on long term organizational prerogatives and needs.
In the end though if you bid $170M on a player it’s tough to go back and say you don’t “need” him a great deal.
I have a used prius as my second car. It is threatening to hold out for more motor oil
Brian (Red Sox Fan)
January 6th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
“Drive 4-5 ….. that’s a kick in the bitt. I thought that I WAS authorized to speak for sports fans in NE. Are you sure that I’m not?”
Yes, I sure. But you’re ok anyways lol
I think you are thinking like sukrat, but I think you should cover the other side of the topic in the post too…