Teixeira should fit like a glove
-
- January
- 7
Journal News columnist Sam Borden chipped in a few more items gleaned from yesterday’s proceedings:
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During the CC Sabathia press conference, Joe Girardi talked about how he remembered coming into the weight room at Jacobs Field the morning after an Indians-Yankees game last season, and seeing Sabathia already there, even though the pitcher had thrown a gem the night before. To Girardi, that showed the kind of character Sabathia had.
When asked yesterday about Mark Teixeira, Girardi recalled an Angels-Yankees game at the Stadium on Aug. 3. Some people (including Edwar Ramirez) might remember that Teixeira crushed a grand slam in the eighth inning; Girardi, however, talked more excitedly about the diving stop Teixeira made in the fifth, robbing Wilson Betemit of a hit. “He’s just a complete and all-around player,” Girardi said.
It goes without saying that Teixeira is a better fielder than Jason Giambi, but his presence at first will also be worth something to the other infielders: Robinson Cano can be spotty, Derek Jeter’s arm isn’t what it used to be and A-Rod, as evidenced in the past, can fall into throwing funks. Teixeira’s glove will almost surely save them all a little embarrassment.
Meanwhile, everything is under construction at old Yankee Stadium, including the parking lot where the media and players used to park. So as I was walking from the temporary lot to the Stadium yesterday, I noticed the progress that’s being made on the new train station, which will allow fans from everywhere – including Westchester – to avoid traffic and $40 parking charges when they come to games.
It looks like there will be a long platform and bridge that allows fans to walk over top of the road and then come down in front of the new Stadium.
————
Thanks again to Sam. Don’t forget, he and Rick Carpiniello are debating what lineup the Yankees should use over on the Faceoff blog.
Also, check in at Giants Journal tomorrow at noon. Sam and Journal News football writer Mike Dougherty will do a live video chat about the upcoming playoff game against the Eagles.
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Peter Abraham
I can agree that he’ll make Rodriguez’ and Jeter’s throwing yips less noticable, but, the vast majority of Can’s errors ar on the grounders. His throws are almost always on target.
Was at that game – definitely remember the grand slam more than the stop…but I guess that’s why Girardi gets paid the big bucks
Thanks, Sam! Tex should be a bit of a multiplier on O and D.
Hopefully Cano will be back to the defensive form he was showing when he was hitting well his coming season.
Is the new train station a Metro North stop?
From the previous thread.
Who do you think will be the comeback player this year with the Yankees?
a.Posada
b.Matsui
c.Wang
d.Melky
e.Cano
f.Arod(odd number year)
g.?
Darn Joe has a good memory. He takes note of all the little things. Good to know.
Posada definitely.
Very glad you’re back Sam. It was a dark day in the Yankee blogosphere when you left for Florida. Hope you get a chance to post a bunch more.
E…A…G…L…E…S…EAGLES!!!
“Teixeira’s glove will almost surely save them all a little embarrassment.”
Leiter was talking about this last night on MLB Network. He said Alex and Derek can just come up throwing now instead of getting underneath throws by trying to aim them too much.
“Is the new train station a Metro North stop?”
Yes.
Save for the bad 2 weeks Alex did pretty well at third. Jeter on the other hand was pretty bad with his throws. Now most if not all of it could be attributed to his hand injury. We should be in much better shape now. I would say we have one of the better infields defense wise. (well we already know offense wise).
Response from previous thread:
********************************************
“Who will be the comeback player this year with the Yankees?”
I’m hoping Posada, Wang & Matsui come back en force and end in a 3-way tie for that one, S.o.S. The team sure needs it from all 3. Big time.
I don’t think having a season one would expect from a guy after what amounts to a mental lapse year should qualify as a ‘comeback’ year. Melky & Cano just stumbled & fumbled all year and I’m thinking of them when I say that. There were no excuses to be made, they just didn’t live up to expectations. Rebound years? I hope so. Come back years? No.
A-Rod followed up an MVP year in ‘07 with what amounts to a pretty good year by most player’s standards in ‘08. So even thinking ‘comeback’ when thinking A-Rod isn’t fair to the guys making actual comebacks.
Good productive years from Melky, Cano and A-Rod? The team needs them too. Again … big time. But they really can’t be called ‘come back years’.
If I can add a side bar …. if Carl Pavano were to somehow go 17-5 with an ERA in the mid-3’s after logging nearly 200 innings for Cleveland, he shouldn’t be considered for ‘Comeback Player of the Year’. More like ‘Miracle of the Decade’.
Exactly what does Rodriguez need to “come back” from? Given that he missed 22 -24 games and had 100 fewer at bats from the previous year, I’d say that his numbers were pretty normal for him. It’s not unreasonable to think in those missing at bats that he couldn’t have added 6-10 homers and 25-30 RBIs.
Teixeira’s range at first will certainly help Cano because he’ll be able to take an extra step or two to his right and increase his own range to balls hit more up the middle.
pat: Sweet! I’ll probably still take the D to the Stadium, but it will be nice to take the MetroNorth back in the evening since it’s a shorter walk back to my place than the D.
Train won’t work for us from Jersey.
Unless I want to take the train or bus into the city than take the subway. Which is pretty stupid considering it is a 15 minutes drive. The commute turns into 2 hours for me. 
According to the numbers, A-rod was one of the 3 most valuable players in the AL last year so I’m not sure what he’s coming back from.
Good point GB7 … and he still had a pretty good year despite his quad not being 100%.
People who are expecting a repeat of 2007 every year from Alex are likely to be disappointed. That was a historical year for any player and not that easily repeated whether you believe in the odd year thing or not.
I was having a debate at lunch with a co-worker (Sox fan) over the Sox interest/non-interest in Tex. He doesn’t believe Gammons reported the Sox had been planning on Tex for 2 years and the deal was all but done only to then do a complete 180 and say the Sox interest was a hoax.
I thought someone posted a link on the blog to those reports over the last day or so. If so, can someone reference it again? Thanks!
The Metro North stop is going to be the best thing ever added to a train station! It’s gonna be like a 30 minute ride, you can drink on the train, and to think, no more dealing with those stupid lots and traffic on 87 after games. I’ve been so excited about this since the beginning.
Question RE: Jeter:
Is there any truth to the rumor that Jeter is in decline? His HR total has dropped 5 straight years (04 – 23HR, 05 – 19HR, 06 – 14HR, 07 – 12HR, 08 – 11HR) and his hits, doubles, OBP and SLG dropped off considerably from 07 (206 to 179 (H), and 39 to 25 (2B), .388 to .363 (OBP), and .452 to .408 (SLG).
Can this be attributed to decline or a sore wrist from getting beaned by Daniel Cabrera 100 times?
RE: Defense… when will the Yankees move him to OF? Will they move him to OF? Will they resign him as their SS?
Joe G knows that pitching and D win championships. You need some hitting especially in the clutch and that will be better but the whole infield should be so much better thanks to Big Tex and therefore the pitching will be better, it already is with CC and AJ and Wang healthy and not Ponson,Rasner,Giese
So, this woman finds a 139 year old baseball card in her attic:
“The card is actually 139 years old. It, and a handful of others like it, are considered the first baseball cards. Sports card collectors call the find “extremely rare” and estimate the card could fetch five, or perhaps, six figures at auction.”
She had it on EBAY for 10 bucks…
http://www.courant.com/features/hc-webbaseballcard.artjan07,0,2557404.story
jennifer: The thing that’s really annoying about the Bergen line is that you have to change in Secaucus and you can’t take the train straight into Penn Station.
That said, it’s still easier than driving in, and you don’t have to pay for parking.
Here’s what drives me nuts about all A-Rod’s critics:
A-Rod’s career averages per season:
44HR, 127RBI, .306BA, .389OBP, .578SLG, .967OPS
A-Rod last year:
35HR, 103RBI, .302BA, .392OBP, .573SLG .965OPS
Just how does that ‘08 line suck? How? Tell me? His HR and RBI were down just a hair because he missed a couple weeks when he got injured. It happens. But his percentage stats are virtually spot on his career averages. Give me a break. Please. No, give HIM a break.
That’s what he said Ron. I don’t have a link but, I do have two ears.
More than just me who post in here heard these comments, FWIW.
I always get a charge out of folks saying Arod needs to have a “comeback” year in 2009.
He missed almost 25 games and played hurt most of the season. Yet, his numbers were right there when all is said and done.
The guy isn’t going to hit 1.000 to satisfy his detractors.
That said, he’s a better option than say……Joe Crede, as some in here wanted last year.
ANSKY
January 7th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Good point GB7 … and he still had a pretty good year despite his quad not being 100%.
————————————————————
That point could be made, also, but, was only basing it on on games he missed and what his usual numbers in that time period would be. A ew years ago, I did tat with Mantle’s numbers, based on him playing 148 games a year, and what he did during those seasons. The numbers are staggering, and, doesn’t take into affect that many times he was playing when he shouldn’t.
I also did that on Whitey Ford. In an era when pitchers were starting38-42 starts, he was about 6-8 starts less than that because many times Stengel would skip him against the weaker teams to st him up to pitch agaist the best starters on other teams, like Bunning, Pierce, Lemon, Feller, Score, Wynn and Parnell…the top pitchers in the AL. He also missed a lot of starts from ‘57-’59. Houk put him in a regular rotation and Ford hd his best years. It amazes how many games he won pitching agaist other team aces.
I’m interested to see if there is any movement with Pettitte the rest of the week.
If he still wants to play, which he has told numerous people he does, he’s going to have to make a tough decision.
Chase the cash and ruin what’s left of your reputation, or work something out with the Yankees.
Forget the Manny talk. This team doesn’t need Manny. They need another starter, and a reliable one. Preferably on a one year deal.
I hope Andy makes the right decision here. The last time he left for money (Houston), he said it was a big mistake.
For his sake, I hope he doesn’t repeat history.
January 7th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
CB,
I agree the order between third and fourth doesnt much matter and perhaps, stats dont mean much. But considering Tex’s batting average is 33 points higher batting third than fourth (311 third to 278 fourth). i THINK that is something to consider and I am sure girardi thinks so. Further, this is comparing the same player in a giant sample size of almost 3500 at bats – i think most of the confoundings would be controlled for using these two large samples.
I agree with your other points as well – batting tex third does take some pressure off on a new team with a large, new contract and arod will hit far more homers than tex maximizing the runs scored on these. I also definitely agree tex is the more patient hitter and arod has won multiple mvps while hitting fourth including the best season of his career.
On the flip side, i am pretty surprised you never mentioned the role speed plays in the lineup.Arod’s speed can turn single into doubles and can score form first at times. Tex cannot do this. That would be one advantage of batting arod third and the major reason why speedy players hit in the top of the order.
I also agree that none of this will matter much and have very little impact on winning but it is an interesting discussion nonetheless.
Brad Pitt ,
The major advantage I see with swisher is his patience. He is one of the best in the game in that category somehow managing to lead the league in pitches per plate appearance despite the worst year in his career. The yanks are known for their patience and ability to wear down pitchers and swisher along with tex starting in the lineup every single day certainly does an excellent job in replacing Giambi and abreu in that category.
Further, there is a reason people were saying all that before last season. Swisher has a ton of talent. iN 2007, he had a 381 on base percentage with 22 homers and the year before it was 372 with 35 homers. That is the type of production Giambi was giving us in his healthy, productive years on the yanks for a fraction of the cost. yEA, Swisher was dreadful last season but so was cano. Does that mean they are finished or that they shouldnt start this season? Of course now. The potential is still there despite one horrendous year. Not to mention, swisher was forced to play centerfield which he claimed he hated and was one of the major reasons for his horrible year. I believe he feels very differently about right field.
Another little statistic is that in swisher’s first full season, he was sixth in bases on balls in the league. That is amazing. He was sixth in 2007 and despite last years numbers he was still eighth in the league in walks. That is pretty incredible that he has finished in the top ten in his first three years in baseball in walks while still hitting over 20 homers every single season. How can this guy not be a great player with that obp and that power? You dont need a high average when you lead baseball in obp – avg becomes irrelevant. And with his power – he is a very useful weapon and I believe he should start in right field over nady.
It’s amazing how many games the Yanks won batting Richardson and Kubek 1-2.
SJ, thanks for the Gammons info.
“The guy isn’t going to hit 1.000 to satisfy his detractors.”
How about to thrill and delight his supporters?
SJ
I spent some time on this and i dont know if you saw it so Im reposting:
SJ,
I was curious about your comment concerning sheets current injury being a precursor to tommy john surgery. I am in medical school currently and have a lot of resources at my disposal so I tried to do some research – i find out that injuries labeled tightness in the forearm is one of the precursors to ulnar collateral ligament reconstruction or TJ surgery. This is primarily because the tendons of the forearm flexor muscles are located extremely close to the ulnar collateral ligament providing extra support – when this support is weakened, it is a sign that the ligament may also not be at full stength which makes sense.
Ben sheets current injury is a torn flexor muscle in the forearm – I dont believe it is the tendon but rather a tear in the muscle itself that is the problem. This is not exactly forearm tightness or a tear in the tendon (I dont think) but I can obviously see the cause for concern. Of course, not every player who has forearm tightness eventually has TJ surgery and I havent heard of a tear of a forearm flexor being labelled as a precursor as of yet so there is no reason to think the injury is THAT serious at the moment. I still think if the price is right we should take a flier on this guy.
A contract loaded with incentives would be the way to go because if he ends up having ligament reconstruction and is out the entire length of the contract, not much will be lost. In that line of thinking, I would assume the risk would be worth the potential reward. But this is all a matter of opinion and no matter how much information you have to work with, no one can tell the future.
RonH:
“That is all for another day. For two years, it has been the Red Sox’s plan to sign Teixeira. That plan remains.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3783590&name=gammons_peter
SJ,I asked in another subject title about what sort of humbers Rodriguez had with Giambi hitting 5th agaist what the numbers were with Posada/Matsui were. I’d have to believe that given Giambi’s long slumps, they might be startling. Do you have access to ?
I still wonder if Mike Cameron wouldn’t help them more than another starter like Andy.
I don’t think Damon can be an everyday CF anymore, and I don’t think Swisher is one either, so right now it looks like Gardner or Melky. If that’s so, Cameron would on paper help more than Andy.
But I can see why the Yanks would rather sign a solid starter to ease the pressure on Hughes et al.
I bet Teixeira will have 5 errors two weeks into the season.
Good to see the wet blanket is back.
How many of you guys think the Red Sox will wage all-out war to sign Pujols if he becomes a FA in 2012?
Great story Tom, thank you for posting it.
If andy really wants to play again and NY is the only place he wants to play – he has a problem if he wants more than 10 million – he has absolutely no leverage right now. And the yankees are doing him a favor by offering him ten million. How many fourth starters in the MLB make even close to that? He should be jumping up and down that the only team he wants to play for want him back for 10 million.
And what is with the hard line he is taking to get a couple million more when he has made over 100 million for his career. If he has better options and he doesnt mind playing elsewhere, I say goodbye and good luck but if he desperately wants to come back to the yanks and is letting his greed take over he should take the ten while its still available (if it is).
Andy is almost a lock for 200 innings which is the kind of pitcher we should sign right now but he was absolutely terrible in the second half so ten million is almost a gift to a 36 year old who appears to be on the decline and is being signed on as the fourth or possibly even fifth starter.
Reposting response from prior thread…
“But considering Tex’s batting average is 33 points higher batting third than fourth (311 third to 278 fourth). i THINK that is something to consider and I am sure girardi thinks so.”
Ok Dave I’ll bite. But I’m not going to get into a long drawn out discussion of this.
The difference between Tex’s batting average hitting 3rd vs. 4th largely means nothing.
Why? Because you generally cannot draw significant inferences from bivariate statistics like that because they do not control for any other confounding factors that may also impact batting average. Bivariate statistics are best used for hypothesis exploration rather than hypothesis testing.
Now you may not believe that – but I can tell you it’s true.
Pujols is a generational type player. I hope STL locks him up long term.
Yes, it would be interesting to compare A-Rod’s stats when Giambi batted behind him vs Matsui or someone else batting behind him.
CB, That reads like a Trig equation….Does that mean Texeria still hit 3rd ???/
“I was having a debate at lunch with a co-worker (Sox fan) over the Sox interest/non-interest in Tex. He doesn’t believe Gammons reported the Sox had been planning on Tex for 2 years and the deal was all but done only to then do a complete 180 and say the Sox interest was a hoax.”
Ron,
Here’s the link to Gammons saying the Sox were planning on signing Tex for 2 years. I remembered reading that on Gammons blog so it was easy to find.
Here’s the exact quote:
“I was having a debate at lunch with a co-worker (Sox fan) over the Sox interest/non-interest in Tex. He doesn’t believe Gammons reported the Sox had been planning on Tex for 2 years and the deal was all but done only to then do a complete 180 and say the Sox interest was a hoax.”
But there are many other great nuggets from that Gammons column.
For instance that was the column where he said that the reason why the Yanks had backed away from the cameron deal was because they liked what they saw from Melky in winter ball.
Then there was also this on the Tex negotiations. Far cry from yesterday when he was insinuating Tex was negotiating in bad faith:
“Most free agents probably read Red Sox owner John Henry’s cryptic e-mail in regards to the Teixeira negotiations, which probably was a rewrite of something he wrote to Frank McCourt when he was negotiating to buy McCourt’s house outside Boston, which, roughly translated, might have read, “If you can get $30 million for the house, you’d be wise to take it.” McCourt didn’t, and Henry got the house for considerably less.
One source close to Teixeira said Friday that the two sides are not that far apart, and the conciliatory and civilized nature of those words made it obvious that Teixeira likes Mr. Henry’s neighborhood, he just wants the kitchen and heating system redone as part of the deal.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3783590&name=gammons_peter
“How many fourth starters in the MLB make even close to that?”
If Andy were a fourth starter you might have a point, but he’s not so you don’t.
Even in his worst year, he was a major league average pitcher. That puts him between a second and a third starter, and if you look at his last three seasons as a whole, he’s better than that.
Plus, Andy was hurt in the second half. He could have quit and gone to Tampa for some rehab, sun and fun, and had a nice glittery 2008 stat line, but he stayed and pitched for us when we needed innings badly. And your comment is the kind of thanks he gets.
Gammons speaks and actually sees the Yankees as favorites.
This must be a mis-print.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/
GB,
I don’t know what Arod’s numbers were re: the guys behind him in the order.
I do know Hideki Matsui’s #’s are always best when he hits 5th.
That’s as far as I can go on the numbers front! lol
That’s CB’s domain and he’s better at it than I could ever be.
Dave.
The Yankees aren’t signing Sheets. On XM this morning, Joel Sherman said the Yankees poured over his medical records and there were too many red flags.
Sherman talked about a back injury Sheets suffered, and supposedly still has issues with, as a major reason.
Sherman’s Yankee sources said they aren’t comfortable enough with his medicals to make an offer.
Like Manny, Ben Sheets isn’t going to be a Yankee.
The Pujols talk is a waste of time. The Cardinals love him, he loves St. Louis, and he’s the franchise there.
They have plenty of money and he’s not going to get away.
IMO, he will be a Cardinal for life.
All that talk comes from Red Sox fans needing something to hang on Post-Teixeira.
On the current Yankee team, we have Damon/Swisher/Nady/Gardner/Cabrera all competing for 3 outfield positions. This is assuming Matsui is full time DH. We can obviously give up offense in one position, and CF seems to be it, given that we do not possess a candidate, nor is there a viable one via trade worth getting. Gardner will provide some offensive pop, but as long as he keeps the OBP up and wreaks havoc on base, thats fine. Damon will play left, will Nady @ RF and Swisher utility OF. Utility INF is Berroa now apparently.
Melky packaged with someone should give us something. We just signed 2 major FA pitchers. We can part with some prospects + Cabrera for something. Another lefty in the pen is we are giving up Coke to start.
With Andy in the fold at $10M, the 2009 25 man roster payroll will come in at just under $200M. I have to wonder if this roster and salaries were the plan all along, at a $200M salary budget for 2009.
I calculated a hair over $196M before arbitration to Nady Bruney and Melky, and without considering the small increases to the 400k-450k 2008 salaries for the bullpen, Joba, bench, etc.
Andy may be screwing up the master plan here…
Looks like the Pirates still in for Rocco Baldelli, as one of three teams. One other is Boston and other AL team. Unless NY can move Nady or Swisher, I can’t believe that NYY would be in on this. Maybe Baltimore?
Rebecca –
St Louis would be foolish to let him get away, but if Pujols actually becomes a FA then Boston (for their sake) had better land him. They’d look like bumbling idiots if they couldn’t.
IMO they’ll still look like idiots anyways, but that’s not the point.
Just for giggles, the Yanks should take a stab at him and see if he takes it. We might need a DH by then, right? Yeah. And if that ever actually happened, all of the Red Sox front office would be fired and Hal or Cashman (or whoever closed the deal) would be dubbed ‘Darth Sidius’.
Tom, thanks for the link on Gammons.
Another thing about swisher is that he was one of the unluckiest batters in the sport with his projecting batting avg slightly above his career avg and more than 30 points over his actual BA.
if pujols ever hits FA, he’ll cost so much money that it will eat into the marginal benefit of signing a talent like him. way more than arod-type money.
SJ: I remember someone posting here the other day about the Red Sox going after Pujols, but your point makes more sense than that.
Wave,
Problem is, for 2009, Andy IS slated to be the 4th starter in the rotation.
His past is irrelevent. His 2009 plans slate for him to be the Yankees #4 starter.
To that end, the offer that may or may not on the table at this time is the largest offer for a 4th starter in baseball.
If Andy can do better, which is his right since he is a FA, he has to come up with a deal. Thus far, he doesn’t have a better offer.
If he does, he will take since its clear this is about the money and not about all of the other things he said at the end of the season.
Whether you think its fair, unfair or something in between, is meaningless.
If he can find a better offer, he’s welcome to take it.
That’s what being a FA is all about.
“That reads like a Trig equation….Does that mean Texeria still hit 3rd ???/”
Pat M.,
What that means is that on the whole it’s very reasonable to bat Tex 3rd.
But NOT because of the statistics. If they do bat him 3rd and did so BECAUSE he has a higher batting average hitting 3rd that would be a bad reason to do so.
The reason to bat him 3rd or 4th should not be based on his batting average when he’s slotted into the 3rd or 4th slot. That’s a misuse of statistics.
That decision on whether to bat him 3 or 4 (which doesn’t make that much difference to begin with…) should be based on one’s evaluation of Tex’s talent, the kind of hitter he is, his patience, Alex’s power etc.
That’s the kind of decision that should not be driven by the kind of conclusion that says that since tex has a higher career BA in the #3 hole compared to #4 they should bat him #3. Those numbers are largely irrelevant to that particular decision.
I’d bat Tex 3rd, personally. But if Girardi did hit Tex 3rd and did so for the specific reason that Tex has a higher batting average in the 3rd spot I’d just have to shake my head at that lack of logic.
CB, thanks to you for the Gammons info as well.
SJ44
January 7th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
GB,
I don’t know what Arod’s numbers were re: the guys behind him in the order.
I do know Hideki Matsui’s #’s are always best when he hits 5th.
That’s as far as I can go on the numbers front! lol
That’s CB’s domain and he’s better at it than I could ever be.
————————————————————
Thank, SJ. Perhaps CB is eavesdropping and has the info. I could sit down and work it out over the next 4 months, one box score at a time. I was hoping to get the info and be lazy.
SJ44-
I’m not sure I get your point. I guess you think the Yanks vastly overpaid for AJ because he’s the second or third starter?
The Yanks put $10M on the table for him. Compared to other pitchers like Andy, Andy is worth it. Where he slots into the Yankee rotation is meaningless and frankly a dumb argument as to what he is worth.
Cano will bat eighth. Is he getting paid to much for a number 8 hitter? Shouldn’t we trade him and sign some guy who will agree to get paid like one?
The Yanks aren’t going to make Andy take less, and I will be surprised if Andy isn’t offered more than $10MM by some team at the end of the day. He may take the Yanks’ offer anyway because he doesn’t want to leave, but don’t tell me he should be grateful for the Yanks’ lowballing him.
SJ44
I am in total agreement with you on your position regarding Andy Pettitte.
Again as it was when he fled the Yankees for Houston, I find that there is a segment of Yankee fans who view Andy as the victim being basically lowballed by the Yankees.
If he does decide to go elsewhere or to retire, this particular incident will forever in my mind take precedence over any acts of forgiveness that I under took previous in his behalf.
Let us not forget when he schemed and then went to Houston with his Buddy Roger for less money then the Yankees offer and then also allowed the Yankee front office and Brian Cashman to swing in the wind as the bad guy in the press, with no comment from him to set the record straight.
Or last spring with the shocking steroid revelations that none of us expected especially from good guy Andy.
If he does not resign with the Yankees it would come as no surprise to me to see the same type behavior from Andy and the Hendricks brothers.
Exactly as it was when he left for Houston allowing the blame for his departure to rest solely with the Yankees and he the poor victim once again.
So Wave,
in your view he owes them nothing for deceiving them and having a sucky second half while taking the 16M he wouldn’t have been offered AFTER the release of the Mitchell Report?
WYH, you are completely ignoring the fact that Andy can’t get a better offer on the open market. The Yankees are willing to use $10 million on him to be their 4th starter. That’s where the Yankees have him valued. If he could sign a bigger deal with someone else perhaps the Yankees would adjust accordingly.
Why should the Yankees bid against themselves and offer Pettitte more money then he could get elsewhere?
“I asked in another subject title about what sort of humbers Rodriguez had with Giambi hitting 5th agaist what the numbers were with Posada/Matsui were. I’d have to believe that given Giambi’s long slumps, they might be startling.”
GB7,
There’s no particularly good way to answer that question with statistics. It’s a bit complicated but if you really wanted to know the true answer to that question you’d have to run a completely impractical experiment where you randomly assigned Giambi vs. Posada/Matsui to bat behind Alex and then see what happened. Ideally you wouldn’t let Alex know either who was hitting behind him. Obviously that’s just not possible.
You could crunch a lot of numbers but they aren’t going to give you a much better answer than what you could reason from with your eyes and knowledge of the game, IMO. You don’t need stats as they won’t provide much marginal information.
Outside of the injury Alex pressed quite a bit last year and his swing got long at times. I think he was trying to do to much at the plate, especially with RISP because the team as a whole just wasn’t scoring and more specifically because Giambi wasn’t driving in runs at all if he wasn’t hitting home runs.
I’d have to think that Giambi with his wild streakiness didn’t help alex much at all.
On the flip side he had one of the best years of his career the year before with matsui hitting behind him. But that year the team scored a lot of runs and Alex looked remarkably relaxed the whole year.
But in general as long as Alex stays patient I don’t think it matters much who hits behind him.
“in your view he owes them nothing for deceiving them and having a sucky second half while taking the 16M he wouldn’t have been offered AFTER the release of the Mitchell Report? ”
No why should he owe them anything? He’s a free agent, he can do whatever he wants. The Yankees needed Pettitte as much as he needed them last year.
Wave Your Hat:
It does matter.
You pay more for a #1 pitcher than you do a #4.
The first guy is expected to be your ace, to start Game One of the World Series if your team gets there, to be the stopper, to be the guy whose jerseys sell out at the gift shop.
The number four guy is supposed to go out there and give your team a chance to win, and to be able to at least start a playoff game if need be.
Would you pay Rasner the same as Wang? (Ignoring, of course, Wang’s injury).
More to the point, would you pay Sabathia the same as the Red Sox might pay Wakefield or the Indians Jeremey Sowers?
Probably not.
Wave your hat
That is not what I meant. My comment was trying to say that Pettitte is being signed by he yanks to be a fourth starter. I did not mean he had the talent of a fourth starter currently and i CERTAINLY did not mean that in his career he pitched like a fourth starter. i dont know where you got that from my comment at all.
And i would like to say that I love andy and I appreciate all he has done for the yanks but the yankees are NOT paying him for his performance in the late 90s, they are giving him 10 million for what he will do in 2009. And I for one think that that salary is extremely generous. I am tired of the yankees paying players for what they have done and not what they will do – the yanks are taking the correct stance with pettitte- giving him a little more than his pitching line will most likely show next year but not paying him for his performance in 2007 or any year prior.
And i HAVE yet to hear exactly how andy was hurt at the end of last season. Perhaps, he should have sat out and rested up if he was injured because he certainly wasnt helping the team the second half of last year with some pretty bad performances. Perhaps, that was a sign of injury but perhaps and more likely he is declining. He is 36 and wanted to retire years ago which implies that he will not be very good next season and may or may not give us 200 innings. i THINK 10 million is way more than he should get for being signed in for 2009 but that doesnt mean I am not grateful for all he has given to us on the yankees. It just means he isnt nearly as good as he used to be because he is 36 and the yanks are looking to fill their fourth starter spot and no fourth starter makes that kind of dough nevermind 16 million or whatever he is looking for.
Wave,
Where he is slotted is meaningful. Its in direct correlation to the offer he has.
The Yankees aren’t going to pay him 14-16 million dollars a year because they don’t believe he is a 1-3 starter in a rotation anymore.
AJ Burnett, at this point in his career, is a better pitcher than Andy Pettitte.
If Andy Pettitte was 32 years old, a FA, and came off the year AJ had, he would have gotten the same deal.
Andy is 37, only wants to pitch (according to him at least) one more year, and has a lot of miles on his arm.
You still want to compare his market to AJ Burnett’s? They aren’t comparable at all.
As far as Andy being “grateful”, you conveinently forget to mention that “little” thing about he not telling the Yankees anything about his HGH issues until after he signed his 16 million dollar contract. Not exactly kosher and that ticked off a lot of people associated with the Yankees.
The Yankees have been MORE than fair with Andy. They have treated him with respect publicly and privately throughout this entire process. That’s despite the fact that what he told them in October, and what’s he’s doing now, are two entirely different things.
Andy isn’t a bad guy. He’s also no longer a front end starting pitcher, yet wants to be paid like one.
Its really simple. If he can come up with a better offer, than he has some leverage with the Yankees.
If he can’t, then the Yankees, like the Abreu situation, correctly assessed his current value in the marketplace and it will be up to Andy whether to accept or reject it.
I hope he comes back. However, I’m not buying what he says because what he says, and what he does, are now two different things.
“WYH, you are completely ignoring the fact that Andy can’t get a better offer on the open market.”
You simply don’t know that. There’s 150 free agents out there who haven’t signed, Andy is just one of them.
“in your view he owes them nothing for deceiving them and having a sucky second half”
I don’t think any deception Andy may or may not have engaged in had the slightest effect on Andy’s performance last year, and his “sucky” second half had everything to do with the fact that he was hurt and pitched anyway because the Yanks needed him.
So no, I don’t think he “owes” the Yanks.
“You still want to compare his market to AJ Burnett’s? They aren’t comparable at all.”
I thought you did. Your the one claiming pitchers should be paid according to the rotation slot the team plans for them.
CO-SIGN Patrick!
Everyone needs to be aware, if the Yankees give Pettitte more, we have effectively outbid OURSELVES!
If Pettitte goes to Texas or Houston and they offer him 11 or 12, you think the Yankees will have a problem going to 11.5 or 12.5, respectively. 2.5 more for a one year deal means nothing to the Yankees, i.e. Roger Clemens. It’s the way unto which it goes down, and the Yankees have too much pride for somebody to raise their value simply by demanding it.
IMO, Garland ‘09. He’s Andy Pettitte, but younger and VERY cheap right now.
That said, I agree Andy’s not worth $14M to $16M. If he really won’t settle for less, then I guess he won’t sign with the Yanks.
But I do think he’s worth $10M – $12M, and I do think it wrong of the Yanks to try to lowball him if in fact that is what they are trying to do. I’m relatively confident Andy could sign a $10M to $12M one year contract if he really decides to test the open market.
“You simply don’t know that. There’s 150 free agents out there who haven’t signed, Andy is just one of them. ”
Yes I do know that. If he did have a better offer the Yankees would go above $10 million or Andy would have already signed somewhere. I’m willing to bet Andy doesn’t get more than $8 million from anyone but the Yankees.
Aha, Jennifer, I knew something was missing!
Thanks for answering, CB. Much appreciated. I was only curious for my own reasons. If I thought it would help Girardi any, I’d forward that and apply for the assistant manager’s job, although I think he’d track me down and slap my upside the head.
“So no, I don’t think he “owes” the Yanks.”
He owes it to the Yankees as much as the Yankees owe him $16 million.
Wave Your Hat: I think you might be overestimating how much the Yankees need Andy.
I know, it’s a horrible thing to say…
Even so, though, if the Yankees really needed Andy that badly, they would have signed him.
Lots of free agents right now aren’t getting deals.
All you have to do is look here:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/features/freeagents
And you see the number of free agents still not signed with a team.
“You pay more for a #1 pitcher than you do a #4.”
By that logic when the braves had their great staffs in the 1990’s John Smoltz should have made much less money than Gregg Maddux because Smoltz was their #3 and Maddux their #1.
But at the same time Smoltz was one of the 6-7 best pitchers in the entire game.
Here’s the relevant question – a league average #4 starter has an ERA of 5.0.
The league average ERA for a number 3 starter is around 4.4-4.5.
Do you think Andy Pettite will have an ERA closer to 5 or closer to 4.4?
That’s roughly how Andy should be compensated in terms of his performance.
The market dynamics are entirely different and it’s still unclear what his true market value is. That won’t be determined unless other teams put in bids.
Right now he has one offer so the market is currently pricing him at 1 year 10M. What’s uncertain is whether that’s his true equilibrium price or not.
$10M is a fair offer.
What this amounts to is a past prime player expecting to be paid the same amount as if he was still in his prime years.
Didn’t Tino and Bernie in their final seasons agree to one year contracts miniscule to the amount that they received from the Yankees while in their prime?
I know Randy Johnson just agreed to one year at $8M from SF.
And Schilling got $8M his last season with Boston.
Beckett slated to make $10.5M in 2009, Matsuzaka $8M.
Few people will miss Giambi hitting into the exaggerated shift.
Too many times in his Yankee career he could have poked a ground ball down the left side of the field and kept rallies going.
CB,
I dont quite understand when and where these issues are arising. First, olney talks about a shoulder injury only a couple of days ago and now, its a back injury. He went on the dl for a flexor muscle tear in his forearm and frankly, that is the only injury that seems to be the reality of the situation unless sheets somehow hurt his shoulder or back in the off season which is unlikely but possible. I dont really believe ANY of this because between the time he first got injured and january fourth not single report discussed an injury to his shoulder and back and now, within the same week he has two more injuries while not playing baseball – doesnt make a heck of a lot of sense.
Also, Riveraveblues and Coleman i think it was reported in mid december that the yankees looked at sheets medical records and were preparing to offer him a 2 year/30 million dollar offer… Both of those reports were mentioned on mlbtraderumors. When the yanks picked up discussion with pettitte and all the stuff with teixera happened those rumors faded but nothing has changed between now and then. I assume sheets medical reports are still the same and we never signed another starter to fill the last spot.
Frankly, I really like sheets and that is pretty apparent but he is a huge risk and I dont mind not signing him. But IMO, we need another starter. With all of the money the yankees have invested over the past off season it seems foolish to leave as pete said “a trap door” open by thinning out the pitching depth and using some combo of aceves, coke, geise, hughes and kennedy to fill the fifth starter spot and the fourth once joba reached his innings limit as well as serve as the backup to CC, Wang and AJ. Considering the Workload, comeback year and injury history respectively those are all starters that run some risk of injury. And injuries happen every single year to the staff so by mid august or so we may be relying on those four to fill in the fifth spot, the fourth spot and another spot in the rotation. That is far, far too much to ask of hughes and kennedy who have shown just a little to prove that they are ready to start consistently at the major league level.
Patrick, you said Andy “can’t” get a better offer, not that he “hasn’t” got a better offer. Don’t change your story in mid-stream.
You don’t know Andy “can’t” get a better offer. Maybe Andy “hasn’t” got a better offer, and maybe he has but that Yanks know he doesn’t want to take it. But you don’t “know” that either. None of us do.
The Yanks offered him $10MM. You want them to treat Andy the way Putin treats the Ukraine and now offer less?
This is all a negotiation anyway. The Yanks and Andy will IMO get a deal done, IMO somewhere between $10MM and $12MM.
Maybe not, but the Yanks are only shooting themselves in the foot if they don’t.
A lot of these Andy arguments were made just yesterday, so I will only briefly recap my own POV.
Yes, Andy is being asked to be the #4 starter, but I think he’s more valuable than the average #4 becuase he can and hopefully will perform at a higher level, which is crucial for a team that has no better internal option, needs to protect the innings of the #5 guy, and just went all-in on CC, AJ, and Tex. The window is open now and I think Andy is the final piece.
That said, given everything we know about the market right now, the Yankees’ offer seems more than fair and possibly even overly generous. Which is why, ultimately, I think that Andy will still end up in pinstripes. And I really don’t care what his salary is unless it inhibits other moves, which is unlikely. Really, if we’re talking about the marginal value of the handful of wins that could make the difference between 1st and 3rd place in the AL East, what might Andy be worth compared to giving those starts to the committee of Aceves, Coke, and Hughes?
Ok, that wasn’t so brief.
CB, don’t try to talk sense about Andy. People on this blog seem to have decided he needs to be punished.
CB: Dude, not fair =P
The Atlanta Braves rotation of the 1990s was a thing of beauty!
But my point was, the expectations from a #1 starter are hypothetically different than that of a #4.
Now, if your rotation is Maddux-Smoltz-Glavine in their heyday, or the 1998 Yankees, (Wells-Cone-Pettitte-Duque), there’s an obvious exception.
Nick: Don’t worry, I won’t start comparing him to a used Prius again…
Jeff (Alexandria, VA): Jordan Shaefer, starting CFer in Atlanta starting in April/July/September/2010?
Jim Callis : July.
——————————————————————————–
Chris (Hoboken, NJ): More wins in 2009.. Phil Hughes or Mike Pelfrey
Jim Callis : Pelfrey.
——————————————————————————–
jamie (dc): Starting CF: Swisher, Cabrera, Gardner?
Jim Callis : Swisher, among that group.
Punished by being overpaid yet again.
OK..now this is getting ridiculous. The Yanks pay welfare to Kansas City and the first thing you know, they’re out there trying to buy titles. They just stole catcher Vance Wilson. They’re ruining baseball…damned small market teams.
“But my point was, the expectations from a #1 starter are hypothetically different than that of a #4.”
Sure they are. And if the yankees wanted a guy who was expected to be a league average #4 they could go out and sign Randy Wolf and call it a day. But I’m sure they’d like something better given the division.
Just because the yankees might expect Andy to pitch as a #4 doesn’t mean he expects himself to pitch that way.
Last year the Rays “#4″ starter was Sonnannstine. He pitched to an ERA of 4.38 – well above the average for a #4 starter.
Just because Sonnanstine happened to be the 4th guy in their rotation doesn’t mean he was a league average #4. Sonnanstine was closer to a “#3.”
The rays have a staff that has at least 3 pitchers who are #1/#2 caliber then they have sonnanstine and then Price. They have the potential to have a staff in which all 5 guys are better than a league average #3 starter.
So it’s up to the yankees to decide how they want to allocate resources to match up to that kind of competition.
All this said I think $10M is generally a fair offer for Pettite and I don’t think he’ll do much better. At most he’ll get $1-2M more from a team he doesn’t want to play for and a team that isn’t as likely to win the world series in his last year.
Andy may “win” this negotiation and get more money elsewhere but it’ll be a Pyrrhic victory.
Wave,
The only people not making sense re: Andy on this issue is you.
Randy Johnson, who had a better year than Andy Pettitte last year, signed a 1 yr, 8 million dollar deal with the Giants as a FA.
Chein Ming Wang, who will have a larger role in the rotation than Andy this year, is going to make 5 million dollars. You want to pay Andy 12 million? Personally, I think the contract the Yankees should work off is the Johnson contract. They are giving him 2 million more because of their history with him.
The Hendricks Brothers have spent the entire winter shopping Pettitte and have no offers. None, nada, zippo.
They planted a story prior to Cashman’s meeting with Pettitte that he had a 3/36 offer on the table to try and move the Yankees.
When Cashman met with Andy in Houston he told him that if he had that kind of offer on the table, he better take it because the Yankees had “other things in the fire” (ie: Teixeira) and couldn’t do that deal.
What happened to that deal? Nothing because there was no 3 year offer.
Bottom line, it doesn’t matter what you or I think his market value is. His market value is what’s happening right now and, at least right now, his market value is established by one team…..the Yankees.
One year 10 million dollars, and that may go down to 8 million by the weekend.
Until another legitimate offer comes in, its either take the deal, retire, or go someplace else for less.
Rebecca, you’re actually helping our argument. The idea is that having Andy as the #4 makes the 2009 rotation more like one of those great rotations you mentioned and less like the 2008 Cavalcade of Callow Crazies.
If Andy is no better than some much-cheaper option, by all means get one of them.
You know, if you lived in Kansas City you could decide in the afternoon to go see a game that night and be pretty likely to get a decent seat at a decent price in a nice ballpark.
Something to be said for that. You’d think those fans wouldn’t have to obsess about being competitive as well.
Rishi,
Callis may be right about Swisher. His competition for the job have big holes in their game.
I believe Swisher makes about $5mil this season.If the Yanks go with either Melky or Gardner that’s an expensive, albeit valuable, supersub. I’m a bit worried that he wouldnt take too kindly to the role though.
I’m not sold that Xavier Nady’s numbers in Pittsburg last season weren’t an aberration. He’s a sucker for a high fastball and his obp is lower than you’d like to see. He’d bring more value in trade than Swisher and if he were moved I’d be comfortable with a lineup of
Damon LF
Jeter SS
Tex 1B
A Rod 3B
Matsui DH
Posada C
Cano 2B
Swisher RF
Melky CF
I am thoroughly unimpressed with Brett Gardner. If he cant reach first base his speed means little. I’d love to have him on the bench as an ‘09 version of Homer Bush. In any case, whoever wins the ‘09 centerfield job in April will likely not be playing there in September. My prediction is that it will be manned by a trading deadline acquisition or Austin Jackson.
I call a foul on SJ44 for comparing Andy’s situtation to that of a cost-controlled Chien-ming Wang!
I kinda feel like Andy does have a little leverage here. He knows the team wants him back. He is clearly the best pitcher they’ll be able to get on a 1 year deal. And if they don’t pay him what he wants, he can go sit on his butt and the team can try to figure out how they fix the innings issue without him.
“You guys want me to play for you. I’m your #1 preference in terms of years and fit (lefty, familiar). Now pay me or i’m going home.”
Wave your hat,
Like i said in my original post in one of my first sentences if not the first sentence. Pettitte needs one thing that he doesnt have anywhere in site- LEVERAGE. You claim that andy could get more elsewhere – so where is the offer? If he had the offer in hand of one year and 12 M i think the yanks would go higher but right now, he only wants to pitch for NY and so he has to talk what NY wants to offer. And I believe he will pitch like a number four starter on the yanks next year meaning not as well as CC, Wang or AJ and i think that is a fair assumption. Therefore, he should make significantly less than them, no? Point is, andy should go out on the open market and see what he can get – but i guarantee you it wont be more than 10 million per season and andy wants to only sign on for one year.
Then, andy will have some leverage and perhaps be able to get a little more out of the yanks but at this point as someone said above why should the yanks bid against themselves for a player who made the team worse in he second half? The answer is not because they owe him for the memories. And if andy was hurt last year, he should have stopped pitching as i said before. hE WASNT doing the team any good continuing to pitching poorly making the team worse and hurt himself at the same time. That wasnt helping the team or himself. I am still waiting to hear exactly how he was hurt or what he has done in the off season to remedy the situation… but i think you are avoiding that question.
im soooooooooooooo tired of andy and the 10 million. i dont care about him anymore. our #4 is whoever wins the spot in spring training until and unless someone else shows up, whoever that may be.
Does anyone know which days/weeks A-Rod will b w yanks during spring training? I want to buy tix to the right games on fri. Tx!
CB: Point taken.
I agree with you, though–$10 million was a more than fair offer, especially with the FAs still on the market.
He can go home and the Yankees could sign Randy Wolf if they choose.
Or, they could deal Nady to Cincinnati for Aaron Harang (a rumor floating in some circles), and fill the spot that way.
The problem is, Andy has no leverage. If he chooses to retire, he leaves 10 million on the table. Lot of money to leave on the table.
The rumors are heating up they are shopping both Nady and Swisher. If that’s true, you have to think one of them will bring back a pitcher, with the other starting in RF in 2009.
Wave Your Hat
January 7th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
You know, if you lived in Kansas City you could decide in the afternoon to go see a game that night and be pretty likely to get a decent seat at a decent price in a nice ballpark.
Something to be said for that. You’d think those fans wouldn’t have to obsess about being competitive as well.
————————————————————
All kidding aside, I always liked John Buck as a backup catcher in NY. His average isn’t real high, but, he can hit it a long way and isn’t bad behind the plate.
“But my point was, the expectations from a #1 starter are hypothetically different than that of a #4.”
That would be because generally you aren’t expecting your #4 starter to be as good as we would expect Andy to be. Once the season starts we would all likely expect andy to be high 3’s to low 4’s in the ERA area right? In that sense he would be worth more than the position he pitches in the rotation. Put another way I think if Wang wins another 19-20 games this season but pitches in the 3 spot the arbitrator (hypothetically) in 2010 won’t give him less money because he doesn’t pitch in the 1 spot anymore.
Andy’s value is that he can still pitch 200+ innnings. That’s important given that Joba will be limited to 140 innings. If Andy were signed Joba would be perfectly slotted between 2 innings eaters in Pettitte and CC. Pettitte knows this and feels that someone with that value should not be offered a 40% pay cut. I can see his logic.
CB -
did you read my post above? The real question to you was not about sheets because i know you were just stating what the report had said but do you think the yanks need to sign another established starter whether it be andy or someone else?
Ninja: I don’t see Andy as having any leverage at all in this. If all indications are correct, he has one offer – the Yankees’. On the other hand, there are other pitchers out there, whom the Yankees could (and will) go after if Andy chooses not to take that offer. If he turns down the $10M, his plan B is what – retire?
“Randy Johnson, who had a better year than Andy Pettitte last year, signed a 1 yr, 8 million dollar deal with the Giants as a FA.
Chein Ming Wang, who will have a larger role in the rotation than Andy this year, is going to make 5 million dollars. You want to pay Andy 12 million? Personally, I think the contract the Yankees should work off is the Johnson contract. They are giving him 2 million more because of their history with him.”
Wang is not yet a free agent and is not comparable.
Johnson is 45 years old to Pettitte’s 36, throws fewer innings, pitches in a weaker league and is a bigger risk to throw fewer innings in 2009. You have to discount for all those things. I don’t think they are as comparable as you do.
Pettitte’s year last year was affected by the injury. He’s a better pitcher than the final numbers showed, as you, the Yanks and I all know.
You cannot be sure what Andy’s prospects are and what offers he has or hasn’t received. You made high-handed statements like this about the Yanks not doing anything with Teixeira and it should have taught you the world is a little more uncertain than you seem to think, and that none of us know all the facts, and that some of the “inside” stuff we hear or read isn’t worth a thing.
Frankly, I’m a Pettitte fan and have been since 1995. So yes, maybe I’m a little biased.
Personally, I think the Yanks would be better off spending $10MM on Mike Cameron and forgetting about another starter entirely. But if the Yanks want another starter, and don’t want Sheets, then yes, I think they ought to sign Andy and I don’t think it becomes them to haggle the price down to $8MM or something.
Rob: Point taken.
I think Andy’s ERA last season was something like 4.54, though, so I wouldn’t expect his ERA to be much lower than 4 in 2009, unless he has a Moose-like renaissance.
Would Randy Wolf take a 1 year deal? If not, does management really want to give him a 2 year deal and clog up the works for 2010? I would think no, given all the talent coming through the system and the contracts already handed out this season. There is some leverage in that desire. Not a lot, but it’s something.
I think the “lowering of the offer deadline” is just pressure. He’s not worth any less to the yankees after this weekend. The money will still be there, as long as there aren’t any moves made increasing the payroll. But a trade or additional signing would obviously change that.
J Rod was a great story out of NY a few years ago. I doubt he makes our roster but was a good story regardless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rodriguez_(baseball)
Wave,
While I generally agree with your point on rotation slotting and how Andy should be valued I do think you are severely under playing what Pettitte did last year with respect to the Mitchell report.
At best he was completely non-transparent and at worst he simply lied and signed a contract illegitimately. Unfortunately, the situation was much closer to the outright lying end of the spectrum given the gravity of that report.
There’s simply no way around that – he looks to have simply lied to his employer when signing his contract.
Unless you are a superstar employee there are going to be serious repercussions if you do something like that. That’s just the way of the world.
As it is the yankees didn’t try to invalidate his contract because they needed him.
He could have gotten away with the whole thing if he’d retired at the end of 2008 or if he didn’t care where he pitched.
Unfortunately for him he wants to pitch for the yankees so now there are some repercussions being felt.
If any employee had done what Andy did he/she would have faced much more serious consequences. You can’t make light to what he did. It was unethical.
Doesn’t mean that he “owes” the yankees anything but it’s going to be a factor and he has only himself to blame as he’s the one who lied.
Drive: I can surely see his logic. I believe that just about everyone would like it if their boss paid them more than they do. But without a better offer – or even another offer – he doesn’t have leverage to get it.
whoa, look at all those comments today alone!
http://www.gvnews.com/articles/2008/12/10/sports/sports03.txt
Tex’s grand slam that game was actually his last at bat ever in the Old Stadium. He mentioned that in one of the interviews yesterday
“did you read my post above? The real question to you was not about sheets because i know you were just stating what the report had said”
Dave,
I was confused by your question on Sheets as you and I have not had any discussion about sheets for weeks. You seemed to be picking up a discussion that you were having with another poster so i thought you had just mistakenly addressed it to me. We haven’t discussed Sheets any time in the recent past.
Nick in SF nails it on Pettite,,,he protects Joba, protects Hughes for one season…He might even go 16 – 10….Hed really pitched much better than his record indicates
andy can call giambi and complain about the 40% pay cut. big g took an 80% cut.
GB7-
I could see John Buck as a back-up catcher. His power fell off in 2008, but as a back up he could help.
Wait, let me get this straight.
People are throwing a fit because Henderson wasn’t a unanimous choice for the HoF?
Am I missing something here?
“The problem is, Andy has no leverage.”
As much as I hate to agree with SJ44, he’s right. Andy has no leverage because the Yankees aren’t operating from a position of sentimentality. They are fully prepared to move on without Andy. Moreover, there are other options available to them as well. It’s not like last season after the Santana deal went bust and the Yankees were the ones on the short end of the stick. No, this time Andy will get no hometown benefit. No slack will be cut for him because he’s got 4 WS rings with NYY engraved on them. The time has come for Andy to either suck it up or retire.
I get flamed for saying that the Yankees should add 2mil to their offer. I still feel that way. Unfortunately for me, if they were planning on doing that, one would think they would have done it by now. It will be interesting to see what decision Andy finally makes. My guess is that he better make it soon or the decision will be made for him.
“The problem is, Andy has no leverage. If he chooses to retire, he leaves 10 million on the table. Lot of money to leave on the table.”
This is the bottom line, really. Andy has three options:
1. Accept a $10 million offer from the Yankees.
2. Acccept a higher offer that, by all available accounts, does not exist.
3. Retire.
Option 2 is probably not an option at all, and option 3 would require Andy to walk away from millions, which means it is extraordinarily unlikely.
I strongly doubt the Yankees will lower their offer. If there is any reason Andy will walk away, it will be because he feels the Yankees have slighted him somehow. The Yankees should not give Andy an excuse to retire or accept an even lower offer from some other team unless they are sure they do not want him anymore.
Like Posada and Rivera did before him, Andy is just holding out for extra money. It is part of the business. I don’t see a need to hold it against him.
The Yanks had to know that Pettitte may have been in the Report, given that his name was (even falsely) in the Grimsley Report and his close connections to Clemens. If they did know, and went ahead with the signing, they have no kick coming. If they didn’t know, they’re either lying to themselves or extremely naive or stupid. They could have waited another 4-5 days to sign Pettitte, so, that leads me to belive that they must have known.
“Really, if we’re talking about the marginal value of the handful of wins that could make the difference between 1st and 3rd place in the AL East, what might Andy be worth compared to giving those starts to the committee of Aceves, Coke, and Hughes?”
I think the point Nick makes here is central to this entire issue.
And the yankees know this. Given how tight the division is and how much money they’ve spent – additional marginal wins are enormously valuable.
How much risk do they want to absorb in passing on pettite given the relatively small amount of money it might take for them to increase their offer to sign him vs. taking a risk with Hughes, aceves, etc.
The yanks and andy both need each other. Much like ARod and the yankees needed each other last year though on a much, much smaller scale.
Hopefully a compromise can be reached.
The yankees do need Andy. If they don’t sign Andy and miss the playoffs by 1-2 games and hughes/aceves,etc. don’t pitch well they are going to look very penny wise pound foolish.
SJ
Nady for Harang? Where do I sign? That would be a solid trade for us considering nady is almost expendable outside of making the team more versatile.
Swisher is NEVER going to start in center for us – he has flat out told any one who would listen that the reason he struggled last season was because he was miserable in center. So i dont think the yanks are going to put someone who is miserable in a position back into that position. This is a little strange to hear though considering Swisher’s stat line should have been his career avg based on projections.
Unless melky is dynamite and I mean abolutely stellar in the spring I highly doubt he starts in center for the yanks. hE will have to prove himself in ST and in AAA and gardner would have to struggle I dont see it.
gARDNER improves the second year in every level he has been in by a dramatic margin. I know this is the majors but i can see gardner at the very least performing better than last years line.
Wave your hate – you are taking this pettitte thing far too personally. The yanks arent lowballing pettitte – he has no better offers and you are pretending he is just waiting around for the yankees to call. He has been looking for other offers and even made one up to try to get the yanks to offer him more. There is no market for pettitte right now and many, many starters with similar or more talent are still on the market and not getting offers.
“I am still waiting to hear exactly how he was hurt or what he has done in the off season to remedy the situation…”
Dave, it was a shoulder injury, as best I can tell, but I have read nothing in the off-season that indicates anyone is worried that it is a chronic thing or something to worry about in 2009. If it was, I guess it would be a story by now.
Not sure if this was posted anywhere but I read some of Gammons comments and just say wow. I really used to like what he wrote and when I lived in Boston his SUnday column was not to be missed but now he just sounds like a cry baby for the Red Sox
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/01/gammonss_take.html
I think the Pettitte situation has run its course. After the Yanks made their $10mil offer I would have like for them to at least give Pettitte a chance to sign for $11mil. If he protects Joba’s innings and give Hughes another year to develop he’s worth it. At the end they bid against themselves to the tune of $20mil for CC. What’s $1mil for Pettitte?
pettitte is lucky he can get 10 million when wakefield is getting 3 or 4 million in 09,pitched 23 innings less than pettitte & wake put up fantastic numbers,pettitte wasn’t even on the same planet as wake.
“Like Posada and Rivera did before him, Andy is just holding out for extra money. It is part of the business. I don’t see a need to hold it against him.”
Only Andy is not Posada or Rivera.
Both Posada and Rivera
1) Have never played for another team
2) Have never been accused of using PEDs
And then Posada was coming off of a career year and Rivera is a sure-fire HoF candidate who just decided to post career statistics after he signed his big contract.
Given Pettitte’s recent history, it would be a bad idea for him to expect to be treated in the same way as Posada and Rivera.
Not to mention, the Yankees needed Jorge and Mo much more than they need Pettitte at the moment.
iM SORRY CB i did mix up the posts that you addressed to me and the one SJ addressed to me.
I dont quite understand when and where these issues are arising. First, olney talks about a shoulder injury only a couple of days ago and now, its a back injury. He went on the dl for a flexor muscle tear in his forearm and frankly, that is the only injury that seems to be the reality of the situation unless sheets somehow hurt his shoulder or back in the off season which is unlikely but possible. I dont really believe ANY of this because between the time he first got injured and january fourth not single report discussed an injury to his shoulder and back and now, within the same week he has two more injuries while not playing baseball – doesnt make a heck of a lot of sense.
Also, Riveraveblues and Coleman i think it was reported in mid december that the yankees looked at sheets medical records and were preparing to offer him a 2 year/30 million dollar offer… Both of those reports were mentioned on mlbtraderumors. When the yanks picked up discussion with pettitte and all the stuff with teixera happened those rumors faded but nothing has changed between now and then. I assume sheets medical reports are still the same and we never signed another starter to fill the last spot.
Frankly, I really like sheets and that is pretty apparent but he is a huge risk and I dont mind not signing him. But IMO, we need another starter. With all of the money the yankees have invested over the past off season it seems foolish to leave as pete said “a trap door” open by thinning out the pitching depth and using some combo of aceves, coke, geise, hughes and kennedy to fill the fifth starter spot and the fourth once joba reached his innings limit as well as serve as the backup to CC, Wang and AJ. Considering the Workload, comeback year and injury history respectively those are all starters that run some risk of injury. And injuries happen every single year to the staff so by mid august or so we may be relying on those four to fill in the fifth spot, the fourth spot and another spot in the rotation. That is far, far too much to ask of hughes and kennedy who have shown just a little to prove that they are ready to start consistently at the major league level.
I am in the camp that believes Pettite owes the Yankees after the HGH scandal and the fact that the Yankees supported him even though he kept it from them until he signed his contract. This is a bad time for a player to be “insulted” by a pay cut when after that cut he will make more than 200 school teachers or police officers
I expect the Yankees to end up signing a veteran for one year in the $ 8-10 range, but I’m okay if they don’t.
As for the batting order. To me the best thing would be to hit Tex, ARod, Matsui against RHP, and AROD, Tex, Nady against LHP.
As for CF I think you’ll see Damon out there maybe half the time with Gardner and/or Melky the other half and always in the late innings. If they don’t make a deal they will enjoy a much improved bench because two players out of the group of Matsui, Nady, Damon, Swisher, Cabrera and Gardner will be out of the starting lineup.
[Not that the Yankees don't need Andy--but if Andy doesn't sign, there are other options on the market. Last year, without Posada, we had Jose Molina and Chad Moeller.]
“Wait, let me get this straight.
People are throwing a fit because Henderson wasn’t a unanimous choice for the HoF?
Am I missing something here?”
—–
no, you got it right…
a hall of famer is a hall of famer. i’m not throwing a fit, but it would have been cool for someone to get in unanimously, and Ricky fit that bill…
Rickey will always be one of my favorite baseball players. When I was 7 I mailed him (and Winfield, Donnie) a baseball card to sign. He not only mailed me back the signed card, but also a set of batting gloves.
“Also, Riveraveblues and Coleman i think it was reported in mid december that the yankees looked at sheets medical records and were preparing to offer him a 2 year/30 million dollar offer”
Judging by everything else the Yankees have done this offseason, if they were only willing to offer Sheets two years, regardless of the price, that should send up red flags anyway.
you know nobody’s going to get into the hof unanimously, but that doesnt excuse the idiots who leave a rickey henderson off thier ballot. there is absolutly no justification for it except writers wanting to puff up thier own ego. anybody who doesnt vote for rickey should have thier vote taken away from them.
“The Yanks had to know that Pettitte may have been in the Report, given that his name was (even falsely) in the Grimsley Report and his close connections to Clemens.”
Of course they did. That’s why I laugh at people when they talk about Andy owing the Yankees because “they stood by him”. Hey, we’re not fools and neither are the people who run these teams. You think SF didn’t know that Bonds was juicing? What about OAK re: McGuire, Canseco and Giambi? They all knew and did nothing. The hypocrisy is mind boggling.
Tom, did Winfield or Donnie send anything back?
gayle,
I just read the Gammons column. I read his column in the Globe and ESPN since the 70’s. You’re right. He’s become little more than a shill for the Sox party line.Very sad because I loved reading him.
Tom: That’s awesome!
I never had the _cojones_ to do that!
“Hopefully a compromise can be reached.”
This is what I have been arguing for two days, but everybody gets their backs up. It is now received wisdom on this blog that Andy has nowhere to turn and can only take a Yankee offer.
I’m just not buying that. There are a lot of free agents out there still and that doesn’t mean they aren’t getting signed. There aren’t that many free agent starters out there better than Andy and if the Yanks feel they need the extra starter, Andy is one of the best options.
“pettitte is lucky he can get 10 million when wakefield is getting 3 or 4 million in 09,pitched 23 innings less than pettitte & wake put up fantastic numbers,pettitte wasn’t even on the same planet as wake.”
Wakefield didn’t pitch injured. Andy did because we needed him to. He gets absolutely no credit for that around here. It’s quite disappointing.
The whole Pettitte issue has an ugly tinge to it, no matter whether you think he should be offerred 12mm or is lucky to be offerred 10mm.
The stench comes not from hard bargaining but from the sad fact that Andy has behaved in a dishonest manner in the past and traded upon the good reputation that he used to have. The Yankees are in no way responsible for this, wheter or not they knew he was going to be named in the Mitchell report. It is all on Andy.
Wave your hat,
it is just very hard for me to believe he was injured and pitched through it the second half of last year because there has been nothing really reported on the subject. I think the yanks may view his poor second half as the beginning of a consistent career decline as petitte has always been a very solid second half pitcher for his career. I know i would be worried about such things.
Truth is, pettitte comes to the yanks with a legit offer for more than 10 mil I am sure the yanks will up the ante because they need another starter of pettitte’s status but if the market for the him is completely composed of the yanks offer, why in the world would th bid against themselves? It makes no sense.
And the problem I have with just offering pettitte 12 because why should the yanks be cheap now is perhaps, 12 wont do the trick. Who even knows what pettitte wants at this point. It isnt common knowledge he would just take the 12 and be done with it. I dont like decreasing the offer as that just seems like a slap in the face and completely disrespectful as pettitte will surely leave after that but why increase the offer when we have no idea how high we have to go?
Mattingly did-it was a diffrent card, however. Winfield did not.
When I was younger (7-12) I used to mail cards to players all the time. It was cool to see who respond.
bru
January 7th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
“pettitte is lucky he can get 10 million when wakefield is getting 3 or 4 million in 09,pitched 23 innings less than pettitte & wake put up fantastic numbers,pettitte wasn’t even on the same planet as wake”
bru, dude, I’m a sox fan but I am not sure how you can justify your statement that wake was so much better than pettite last year. Wakefield was 10-11 with an ERA in the four range. Pettite was 14-14 with an ERA of approximately 4.50
“There aren’t that many free agent starters out there better than Andy and if the Yanks feel they need the extra starter, Andy is one of the best options.”
Plus he’s a known commodity. People clamoring for Sheets need to have their heads examined. We have no idea what condition this guy is in or what he can give us. The Yankees know Andy very well. You would think that would be enough. I guess not.
bru
January 7th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
pettitte is lucky he can get 10 million when wakefield is getting 3 or 4 million in 09,pitched 23 innings less than pettitte & wake put up fantastic numbers,pettitte wasn’t even on the same planet as wake.
————————————————————
What “fantastic numbers” did Wakefield put up that had him on another platet that Pettitte?
Wave: I don’t know that Andy has nowhere to turn. There was a report at one point that there was a 3/36 deal on the table elsewhere. If that’s true, I’m wondering why Andy hasn’t accepted it yet. I’m keeping in mind that there are any number of facts that we, as fans, don’t have. But if that story was just a plant by his agent to force the Yankees’ hand, it hasn’t worked, and the more time that passes without such a deal being accepted by Andy the more people are going to speculate that there really was no other offer.
Anyone have season tickets?
What are the best seats for the money?
The sports bar? Does that open before the season?
Is the bat staying?
How do we get tix for the Cubs games?
“it is just very hard for me to believe he was injured and pitched through it the second half of last year because there has been nothing really reported on the subject.”
You must not read the NY papers. I live in Chicago and found multiples articles about Pettitte’s tired arm and about how the Yankees were covering it up. Heck, Pete probably posted about it as well. It was not a very well kept secret.
since nobody’s actually watched a game from any of the seats, how is anybody gonna know at this point which are the best seats for the money?
CORRECTION: planet than Pettitte?
If Cano can hustle & hit over .300, and deserve to be moved up to the 3-spot then with A-Rod in 4 and Teixiera in 5, the middle of the Yanks order would be a gauntlet for opposing pitchers.
Especially if Matsui (hitting next) can return to anything near what he used to be. A .290-25-100 season from him would be huge, and within reasonable expectations if he’s healthy.
It’d be a huge difference when compared to the days of a strictly-into-the-shift Giambi batting at a sub-.250 clip after A-Rod.
I can’t wait to see it.
“Anyone have season tickets?
What are the best seats for the money?
The sports bar? Does that open before the season?
Is the bat staying?
How do we get tix for the Cubs games?”
Next, you’ll be asking what’s the meaning of life?
“What “fantastic numbers” did Wakefield put up that had him on another platet that Pettitte?”
Hey GB7, I have to agree with you on this one.
Is Gammons completely gone?
“He wanted to go to the Yankees, his wife doesn’t like Boston — apparently she doesn’t like the stores on Newbury Street or something — and in the end that’s the way it goes.”
When you have $180 million, the stores come to you.
Wakefield has a chronic back injury and has had it for several years.
Wave, it doesn’t matter if you believe Andy doesn’t have other offers. Fact is, he doesn’t or he wouldn’t be in a stalemate with the Yankees.
Why do you think the Yankees are holding firm? Its because they know he doesn’t have any other offers, despite shopping himself all winter.
If Andy had other offers, then he would have leverage against the Yankees.
Who knows, perhaps now he will have offers since rejecting the Yankees offer is now public knowledge.
If he does get offers, given the marketplace, its highly unlikely he gets offers exceeding 10 million.
If he does, he wins some extra money and loses what’s left of his reputation. If that’s worth it to him and the people who believe the Yankees should bid against themselves in this thing, so be it.
“Not sure if this was posted anywhere but I read some of Gammons comments and just say wow. ”
Gayle,
I just read that as well. He’s just unbelievable. He’s just completely fallen into a world of Red Sox spin. He’ll just repeat anything the organization tells him to say and they always say what’s in their best interest of course.
It’s just remarkable – the notion that he’s a “journalist” anymore. And I think he’s very bright and knows the game. But he knows it like a very astute fan would kind of know it.
“. Teixeira is Scott Boras’s ultimate client, and he’s very well-programmed . . . The Red Sox didn’t know it, and in the end there was nothing they could do about it. He wanted to go to the Yankees, his wife doesn’t like Boston — apparently she doesn’t like the stores on Newbury Street or something — and in the end that’s the way it goes.”
What garbage. It’s as if there’s simply no way the Sox brilliant management team could have been beaten in a negotiation. They are just too good. Therefore the only possible explanation for Tex not being on the Sox – for him not taking up the privelege of putting on the Sox uninform – was that Tex was simply lying the whole time and was dealing in bad faith from the start.
In Gammons world that has to be it. It isn’t that the sox lost the player because they didn’t up their bid by 5.5% or that the yankees simply outmaneuvered them – it’s just bad faith.
And if Tex simply lied – then, well – Theo and Sox management remain beyond reproach. They don’t have to be accountable for losing the player they’d targeted for two years because they were dealing with a player that was negotiating in bad faith.
Unbelievable. And to try to pin this all on his wife is even more amazing.
This is also what he gets for being so wishy-washy about whether he wants to play from one year to the next or not. Some decisive planning on his part could’ve helped him here.
Tom: Who else responded?
Laura: I know I’ve made an issue of Pettitte’s numbers last year, but besides me I think more people here are annoyed at his handling of the Mitchell Report thing than anything else.
And whether the Yankees actually knew about it–and I’m sure they did–it’s a moot point.
What matters is what the public sees–even if it’s just the formalities.
Publicly, Andy signed a contract and THEN was named in the report, afterwards. He was man enough to admit that he used the supplement, but officially, he did not mention that he might be in the report to the Yankees.
Did the Yankees know? Probably. But that’s not what the casual-government-believing-baseball-fan saw.
Ham
Use your imagination. Offer an opinion.
Sorry that my attempt to stop the beating of a dead horse has failed.
“if Andy doesn’t sign, there are other options on the market. Last year, without Posada, we had Jose Molina and Chad Moeller.”
We’re trying to finish higher than third place this year!
Thanks PAT M and CB. Several others are making similar points too.
Ham Fighters: sure, it’s a tedious topic, as was the “what’s taking CC so long????” and “where willl Tex go????” topics; such is the nature of the Hot Stove League if you think about it that way. Fast forward to the month of April and it probably won’t matter a whole lot exactly when and for what price Andy signed (or didn’t sign), just that he did (or didn’t).
Rebecca -
the point was not even a month ago the yanks were willing to give him 30 mil for two years. Right now, with only the brewers in the running the yanks could probably get him for much, much less than that and absolutely nothing has changed in his medical records. I dont really understand how the situation changed so dramatically when nothing happened. in between then and now. Sheets will NEVER get any more than two years because he is injured currently with a tear in the forearm flexor muscle – sheets has the worst timing in the world but i guarantee some team is really going to get their money worth out of that guy if he stays healthy and if he doesnt, I doubt the team will lose much with the contract he will be forced to sign. In my eyes, the yanks could get him now for no more than 8 mil guaranteed for one year and he could be an ace on most teams when healthy making the risk worth the reward.
I really wouldnt mind harang for nady. Harang was 16 and 6 in 2007 in case any one forgot. Before last year, he had put up three quality years of 200 plus innings with an era under 4 all three seasons. Of course, he was run into the ground by Dusty which tends to happen but selling nady while his price has never been higher and getting harang while his price has never been lower would be a brilliant move on cashmans part. That may very well be the best move he has ever made if he could pull that off (I mean intelligence wise not taking a salary dump or throwing money around at FAs).
Andy’s mistake is that he showed his hand too early. Five seconds after the season ended, he came out and said “It’s the Yankees or nobody”. So if you are the Yankees and you know this guy wants you and no one else, why would you need to make him a high offer? You’re going to try and low ball him because he wants you and no one else. The Yankees have Andy right where they want him….and they know it.
“It is now received wisdom on this blog that Andy has nowhere to turn and can only take a Yankee offer.”
Not sure about that. I guess some people. But to me the general issue that has Pettitte in a real pickle is that he only really wants to play for one team.
So it’s not that he has nowhere to turn – it’s only that he otherwise only has places to turn he doesn’t really want to play for.
Much of his tough negotiating position is due to the fact that he wants it all – he wants to player where he wants at the price he wants.
You can only do that if you excel which he didn’t really do last year. He was league average – that’s valuable but not good enough to expect to call all of the shots.
This all gets back to another one of Pettitte’s wants. He only wanted 1 year deals so that he could retire with a guilt free conscience. That want is really coming back to kill him now. He could have gotten a 2 year deal at 16M per last season but he wanted the freedom to retire.
Andy really wants a lot of things in these negotiations.
gentlemen, and ladies:
happy New Year, to all.
dissapointed to know NYY is shopping both Nady and Swisher. While i don’t value Nady highly, why is NYY opposed to having a strong bench (for a change)?
NYY continues to be penny-wise and pound foolish. They distribute nearly 1/2 billion in salaries this winter, yet determined to tow the line on a player like Petitte and unload miniscule salries in Nady/Swisher. Strange. Whatever.
end of rant.
ray (sox fan)
January 7th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
bru
January 7th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
“pettitte is lucky he can get 10 million when wakefield is getting 3 or 4 million in 09,pitched 23 innings less than pettitte & wake put up fantastic numbers,pettitte wasn’t even on the same planet as wake”
bru, dude, I’m a sox fan but I am not sure how you can justify your statement that wake was so much better than pettite last year. Wakefield was 10-11 with an ERA in the four range. Pettite was 14-14 with an ERA of approximately 4.50
————————————————————
Slight correction, Ray. You have defected from the “Nation”. I understand that you were brainwashed, so, that “freudian slip” is excusable. We’re going to enroll you into “The Evil Empire Deprograming Institute”. You should have complete control of your facualties by the end of spring training. The best thing is, IT DOESN’T HURT.
Cano has to have an on base percentage higher than league average for an entire season before discussions can even begin about him batting in front of arod and tex. not only does he not get on base on a decent clip making him a pretty bad third hitter but he has no speed making it even less likely he will excel batting third. No speed and no high OBP = not top of the lineup material.
Nick: True.
Guess today is not my day, huh?
Dave:
What do you mean nothing happened?
A month ago the Yankees hadn’t signed CC *or* Burnett. They didn’t know if, let alone for how much and how long, they’d sign one, let alone both of them.
A month ago, the risk of signing Sheets may have been worth it if CC and AJ didn’t pan out.
After signing them, the Yankees’ needs changed.
They need a solid four or five starter–like Andy, if he’s healthy. Would they like to have another #1 type starter? Of course they would. But given Sheets’ injury history, the risk of signing him for $15 million a year is no longer worth it.
“I’m a sox fan but I am not sure how you can justify your statement that wake was so much better than pettite last year. Wakefield was 10-11 with an ERA in the four range. Pettite was 14-14 with an ERA of approximately 4.50″
ray,
Remember it’s very difficult to judge Yankee pitchers vs. Red Sox pitcher based purely on ERA as the Sox have an outstanding team defense and the yankees were awful last year. The sox were a top 3 defensive club last year. The yankees bottom three.
If you look at adjusted pitching stats that control for team defense like tRA or even FIP (which I’m not crazy about) they suggest that Pettite did in fact pitch better than Wakefield and did so by a pretty good margin.
How does it make sense to shop swisher right now? Has he increase in value somehow since we got him for betemit and a prospect without playing a single game? That would be mighty impressive but i doubt swisher could bring back anything that would be more valuable to the team than he would be next season. Nady is coming off the best season of his career and costs very little making him much better trade bait.
I just read that Gammons story and all I can say is, “wow”.
The guy went from being a HOF writer to a fanboy.
That’s as bad a slam job on a guy’s wife (I’ve always thought wives were off limits when discussing these issues), as well as it being an incorrect take on what happened, as anything I have ever read for a (formerly) credible journalist.
Gammons railing against “internet reports”. That’s truly hysterical.
It was GAMMONS, as well as Buster Olney, who were giving blow by blow reports on the Red Sox pursuit of Teixeira for ESPN.
It was GAMMONS, not internet reports, who told the world how, “the Red Sox were planning for 2 years to sign Mark Teixeira”.
Now, its Tex’s wife, Scott Boras, and the internets fault they didn’t sign him? What a bunch of crap.
Where was Gammons when the Red Sox tampered with JD Drew? They worked with Scott Boras in that instance and got him to opt out of his contract and sign with the Red Sox.
In his next chat, somebody ought to ask him what MLB told Frank McCourt when he wanted to file a grievance against the Red Sox over this matter.
At this point, there are people writing in this blog who have more credibility than Peter Gammons. That’s just very sad.
A complete and total fanboy of the Boston Red Sox. He ought to do his reports on ESPN wearing a uniform. He would have more credibility if he did so.
“Did the Yankees know? Probably. But that’s not what the casual-government-believing-baseball-fan saw.”
Rebecca, you make a good point. I guess I don’t care what other people think about the team.
As for how Andy handled the Mitchell report, I kinda see it the same way as when Clinton lied about Lewinsky. I remember people being outraged that he lied. Are you kidding me? He’s a man, who cheats. Often at that. Did people really expect Clinton to come out and admit what he did? Did Yankees fans really expect Andy to call Cash and say “Don’t sign me to a contract because I might be in the Mitchell report”. That’s not what human beings do. Maybe in a perfect world, but not in the one we live in.
Laura
If Andy had ANY other offers he would, as SJ states, have leverage. He has no offers thus no leverage. So he can take it or leave it. Simple isn’t it?
If he happens to get a better offer, the pressure will be on the Yankees, but not until then. What is so hard to understand about this? Poor Andy sentiments do not enter into it.
i dont get what the objection to gammon’s article is. after hearing tex yesterday, i find it pretty believable. lets not be naive here, if you dont think cashman and boras wouldnt operate like that, or that boras wouldnt turn around and do the same thing to the yankees next year, you’re kidding yourselves. tex even said he made up his mind well before the final negotiations with the socks
Rebbeca, Nolan Ryan, Dale Murphy, Rags, Willie Wilson, Robin Yount, Reggie Jackson, (Although I sent him a card of him on the O’s and he mailed me back a card of him on the Angles) Jack Clark. Many others-mostly random Yankee players from the mid 80s to early 90s.
Ryan’s came 2 1/2 years after I mailed it.
“If he does, he wins some extra money and loses what’s left of his reputation.”
You keep saying this but I don’t get it. First you say Andy has no other offers, so he ought to take the Yanks offer and the Yanks’ offer is market because the Yanks are the only players for Andy and Andy therefore has no complaints.
Then you say if Andy has higher offers, the Yanks’ offer, whatever it is, is still right and proper and he should take the Yanks offer or lose his reputation rather than take the higher offer.
Boiling that down, you are saying the Yanks’ are cynically using Andy’s desire to be liked by the fans he has made a career in front of to make Andy take a lower price.
Seems to me you are insulting Yankee management.
I can’t see Cano batting 3rd until he learns how to walk. And after that, it’s still not a given.
Giambi had some success batting 3rd at times, despite his struggles getting around the bases. He could, however, take a walk and slug the ball.
RESPECT THE GIAMBINO!!!
(sigh)
Dave,
The Yankees never had an offer on the table for 2 years/15 million per year for Ben Sheets.
They may have discussed internally, prior to seeing his medicals. However, that offer was never presented to Sheets and his agents.
“If you look at adjusted pitching stats that control for team defense like tRA or even FIP (which I’m not crazy about) they suggest that Pettite did in fact pitch better than Wakefield and did so by a pretty good margin.”
CB, actually I agree with you that Pettite pitched better than Wakefield last year. I was responding to the post earlier that said Pettite was not on the same planet as Wakefield.
I was trying to point out that I didn’t think Wakefield was so much better than Pettite and that it was hard to justify that earlier posting.
CB you are spot on the things that is most amazing is that even I know that Tex is the ULTIMATE Boros client. That has been very well reported and for Gammons to say that the Red Sox didn’t know that is just either totally stupid or totally unknowledgable which I don’t think Gammons is. In fact for the Red Sox not to know that going into negotiation makes them seem totally incompetent.
Laura: The problem is, too many of us like to think we live in a perfect world!
Tom: That’s awesome! I’m now a broken record!
“At this point, there are people writing in this blog who have more credibility than Peter Gammons. That’s just very sad.”
I’m not sure how I should react to that…
Rebecca
Yanks signed CC on december 10th and reached preliminary agreements with AJ burnett on december 12th. The ben sheets rumors were floating around until mid to late december while the yanks still had one more spot to fill in the rotation – the rumors disappeared when the yanks got into heated discussions with pettitte … but they never signed pettitte. Also, there were multiple reports long after both cc AND aj signed that the yanks were going after pettitte AND sheets to try to fill the last spot on riverave among other sites.Finally, if the yanks believe he was worth 30 mil in mid december why is he not worth much less currently? Is he worth the 10 mil they offered to pettitte?
And you clearly did not read my entire post – i said the yanks could potentially sign him to a completely incentive laden contract currently at nothing more than 8 million guaranteed. His value is no longer at 15 mil as the market for him is slim including only his former team who are not at all competitive at this point.
SJ,
That Gammons interview had to be one of the single worst things I’ve seen him do.
Truly amazing stuff. He’s just clueless. The amount of bitterness in his comments is remarkable. He’s reacted to the Sox losing Tex like a bitter fan would.
Not just an average fan – a bitter one.
If the yankees don’t win the world series he will lead the gloat parade.
It’s funny to because he probably more than anyone was the one who cranked up the expectations of red sox fans around the country that they were “in the lead” or “frontrunners” for tex.
And then it all fell apart – and it’s Tex’s wife’s fault.
It’s as if it never occurred to him how absurd that is.
Amber Sabathia didn’t seem real keen on coming to NY either but somehow the yankees magically got CC to sign.
The Red Sox seem to be an organization that is in a state of panic. If indeed they targeted Tex for 2 to 3 years, and lost him to their biggest rival, they are reacting quite poorly. Boras is a factor that they have dealt with for a long time (Varitek, Matsuzaka, Drew i’m probably forgetting others) and they were well aware of how he worked. They got arrogant, didn’t want to bid too high, and lost. How they are reacting is quite sad. They have money, spend it freely, and now are basically telling us that they need to make up for losing Tex. My guess is Matt Holiday just made a lot of money.
SJ
Where did you hear that harang for nady rumor? Is there any legs to that?
Rebecca: don’t sweat it. My mom’s gentleman friend is very happy with his Prius.
Ham-
I think the issue here is that what Tex said was that all things being equal he wanted to be a Yankee. At the time he met with the Red Sox things were not equal lI believe in fact that when he met with the Red SOx the Yankees did not even have an offer on the table.
Not for a minute do I believe that if the Red Sox offer was substantially more than the Yankees he would have been a Yankee.
“I was trying to point out that I didn’t think Wakefield was so much better than Pettite and that it was hard to justify that earlier posting.”
ray,
Sorry about my misunderstanding. I like Wakefield and you guys are fortunate to have him. His contract is so ridiculously favorable to the sox it’s hard to get over. I guess he feels tha with his knuckler he can pitch forever and only wants to do so in boston. Still having him signed to that deal really helps make the sox payroll work.
ray (sox fan)
wake had a 4.13 era,gave up 27 less hits per innings pitched,1.18,2.28 BAA now go look up pettittes numbers.i’m guessing a 1.40 whip & the league batted 300 against him,not even close.
like i said he had way better numbers.era & wins are overated.
I say start the season with Teix 3rd and A-Rod 4th, and if Cano can go rebound and bat over .300 and show patience at the plate, bat him 3rd, A-Rod 4th, and Teix 5th.
A Rod has stated that it is he relies on the guy in front of him so he can see pitches. And he tends to guess at pitches, so it is important that he has a good, patient batter in front of him. With Teix behind him, it will take pressure he may take pressure off himself to always get the big hit, because Teix is there to pick up the slack.
Pujols has also said that he prefers not to be in the big market teams. He has said he prefers the media in a smaller place like St. Louis and would prefer to play in a place like that than under the pressure of a place like NY or Boston. If he does hit FA, he’ll get PAID, but I don’t think it will blow A-Rod’s contract out of the top spot. He’s a better hitter, but A-Rod’s contract takes into consideration the money A-Rod’s presence brings to the team as well as for breaking records Pujols may not have that chance. There also aren’t too many teams that could afford to outdo A-Rod’s contract.
Dave: You write your posts in large blocks of text which makes them hard to follow.
I forgot that today’s already the 7th, so you win that battle, but even so, the basic point is that signing Sheets to a ginormous contract, even one that’s incentive-laden, is still a huge risk, and given that they’re already taking on one injury risk with Burnett, it may be something they’re trying to avoid.
Wave,
What I’m saying is, when a player tells a team privately, and the public (in his interview with Michael Kay after the season), “I want to only play with one team, for one more year, and the money doesn’t matter. I want to play for the Yankees”, and then leaves for another team BECAUSE OF MONEY, that player (in this case Pettitte) loses what’s left of his credibility.
His credibility took a major hit over the HGH stuff. If he adds this to it, he has no credibility left. Aside from Pettitte fanboys, who will ever believe what comes out of his mouth again?
If the extra 1-4 million dollars, which as of right now isn’t available to him, in his 2009 contract is that important to him, so be it.
At this point, he has to show up with another offer to get the Yankees interested in changing their offer upward. If the Yankees decide a compromise with him isn’t possible, and move on without him, he would have left 10 million dollars on the table.
If he doesn’t get a better offer, that’s as dumb a move as I’ve seen a player make in years.
I could understand a player misreading the arbitration market this off-season.
However, if Andy, and by extension his agents, blow a one year, 10 million dollar deal with the Yankees, and don’t find greener pastures elsewhere, that’s just not smart business, IMO.
Andy may be a nice guy but he has never been the sharpest tool in the shed.
ray,
“Sorry about my misunderstanding. I like Wakefield and you guys are fortunate to have him.”
CB, no apology needed at all. I just wanted to clarify where I was coming from about Wakefield and Pettite.
I have said this before on here. If Wake is on then he can be nearly unhittable, but if he is off then it can turn ugly in a hurry.
“In fact for the Red Sox not to know that going into negotiation makes them seem totally incompetent.”
Completely true. It’s just amazing how this is being spun in a way which makes the Sox 100% unaccountable.
They just didn’t know Tex was the “ultimate” Boras client? What!
It’s as if they are now trying to plead ignorance in order to make themselves not come off as opertionally incompetent.
And they are getting away with it – with Gammons being their chief enabler.
Could you imagine if Cashman had leaked to the press that the yankees had targeted a player for 2 years and then failed to sign him after putting in a final bid that was only 5.5% lower than the top bid – and then said it’s not my fault I didn’t know money was important to that player I’ve wanted for 2 solid years?
Cashman would be excoriated. He would never, ever recover.
But Theo, Henry and Lucchino have not taken any substantive criticism up there. Instead that’s all been displaced on the notion of Tex being duplicitous.
Every red sox player who leaves there says management paints them in the most negative light possible to deflect criticism from the fans.
They’ve basically used that same strategy to blame Tex here and to be completely unaccountable themselves.
kd,
The yanks are losing matsui, damon, and nady next season. Who knows how gardner will fare? They may trade swisher. Even if we keep swisher, gardner pans out or ajax is ready by next season we still really need a left fielder. We also will have over 31 million dollars off the books – Holliday being a left fielder and worth a good amount of money is the perfect target for us. The sux have Jason Bay coming off the book after 2009 who wants to stay in boston obviously to make a lot of money. Holliday will be the center of attention next season but the sox DO NOT have 31 mil off the books nor are they going to break every record in their franchises history for sales next year as the yankees are. It isnt set in stone but there is almost no way the yanks dont sign Holliday next season as left field will be their biggest need. Esp considering that Aja and Montero can both fill positions internally within the next year or two but we dont have any blue chip left field prospects on the horizon. Next years lineup by february could be Ajax, Jeter, Tex, Holliday, Arod, Posada, Swisher, Montero, Cano,
“Especially when, in Epstein’s six years as general manager, the Red Sox have won two world championships, played in two more ALCS Game 7s and made only two major free-agent acquisitions — Daisuke Matsuzaka and J.D. Drew, both Boras clients.”
This is my favorite quote because Julio Lugo and Matt Clement do not exist….
Giambi press conference now! He went back to #16.
“His credibility took a major hit over the HGH stuff.”
This I don’t get. Andy clearly isn’t a Bonds or a McGuire. He wasn’t taking the stuff to get bigger or throw harder. He was taking it to heal so that he could get back to his team. I don’t get why this extenuating circumstance doesn’t cut him some slack.
Maybe I’m a more forgiving person than most (trust me, I’m not), but I don’t lump Andy in with the steroid guys. IMO, what he did wasn’t the same thing.
“Giambi press conference now! He went back to #16.”
Wow, I didn’t know that 5mil one year contracts warranted press conferences.
giambi came dressed for the ocasion
CB,
If Gammons started talking salary cap in that chat, I would swear Brian the Red Sox IS Peter Gammons on this blog! lol
Dave,
One of the benefits of being in the business is that you hear a lot of stuff. 90% of crap. 5% of it actually has legs, and 5% is actually the truth.
That Nady-Harang talk is probably in the 90% pile but, its something I’ve heard.
If the Yankees are shopping Nady and Swisher, as reports suggest, it seems to me they are looking to free up money.
It could be to pay Andy or another pitcher. It could be to trade for a pitcher.
It also could mean that the agents for Nady and Swisher have made it clear their client isn’t willing to be a bench guy. Meaning, the Yankees shop both, take the best offer for one, and put the other in RF.
Considering Swisher isn’t a FA at the end of the year, and has more upside, Nady could be the odd guy out.
The flipside of that is, what team is going to trade a good player for a Scott Boras client in his walk year. That could mean Swisher has better trade value.
Personally, I like the surplus they have right now but, I can see both sides of the issue.
Going to be interesting to see what, if anything, happens.
I’M SORRY.
My wife made me write those words.
Laura
He is just like Bonds et al. He took illegal drugs to get an
advantage and then he lied about it.
You have quite a double standard.
“However, if Andy, and by extension his agents, blow a one year, 10 million dollar deal with the Yankees, and don’t find greener pastures elsewhere, that’s just not smart business, IMO.”
SJ44, I can’t disagree with your last post. If Pettitte turns down the Yanks offer and can’t find a better one, then I guess he screwed up
My fight for Andy has been, first, I’m a huge Pettitte fan and I admit it, and second basically because I think on the free market, if Andy were willing to pitch for anyone, Andy would get north of $10MM. Not $16MM, which is too much, but north of $10MM.
To me, seeing Andy on the mound is one of my pleasures as a Yankee fan. I remember him coming up big for us in a lot of big games and the connection with the past is important, at least for me.
If Andy were done, or IMO weren’t worth $10M to $12M a year on the open market, then I wouldn’t be arguing so hard. I don’t believe players should be paid more than they are worth for old times sake. I also don’t believe they should be paid less than they are worth either, just because they maybe weren’t always paragons of virtue.
But I think an Andy/Yankee deal makes sense for both sides, would help the Yanks and give me a lot of pleasure seeing Andy in pinstripes.
Dunno if this has been posted
“the Yankees seem like a longshot to land Ramirez. The most recent rumors have circulated around the Dodgers and Giants. But don’t count out the Bombers, who have not declared themselves out of the bidding for him. And also remember that Ramirez’s agent, Scott Boras, has a long history of coming back to the Yankees at the tail end of negotiations – they passed on Carlos Beltran, but swooped in for Teixeira.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2009/01/07/2009-01-07_where_will_manny_ramirez_end_up_in_09_is-2.html
Where was Gammons when the Red Sox broke the unwritten agreement major league baseball had with the Japanese leagues concerning amateur players? All it did was cause the Japanese to consider pulling out of the WBC in protest. Instead, they created a rule making it much harder for Japanese amateurs to return to their native country if american baseball doesnt work out for them.
The Red Sox offended the Japanese. Gammons, the HOF writer, ignored it completely.Think he and the other ESPN talking heads would have done the same if it had been the Yankees? It makes today’s thread about the Yankees and CMW promoting baseball in Taiwan all the sweeter.
CB
oNE COULD certainly draw comparisons to our bid to Dice K which cash didnt take any heat for but i cant think of anything else similar. Cashman really doesnt get that much criticism at all from the media though so I really dont think he would be the one crucified by the media.
And it was henry not Epstein who was the moron in this situation right? Why would Epstein get the blame? If Hank or Hal sent that email there is no way in the world cash would be blamed for any of it by the NY media. With the amount of times the tampa faction was used in the last decade or more, i dont think any one could reasonably claim that the media blames cashman for the owners mistakes – of course, the fans probably do but it is very unclear who was responsible for each action taken bu the yanks ten years ago.
I think it’s hilarious that any time a player passes on the Red Sox, an investigation must be made and “lies” must be exposed. It’s great, great stuff. Gammons, Masserotti, keep bringing it.
Also, any voter who doesn’t think Rickey Henderson is a first ballot Hall of Famer, has been stealing money for years and failing the public.
Laura: I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to agree with Vrsce on this one.
Laura,
Correct. And while it is not legal in terms of the game or FDA, AMA, etc., it does seem as though HGH offers some interesting advancements in healing, the same way that cortisone, a steroid, functions.
I do not look at what Andy did as being criminal at all. Against the rules? Yes. But, not the same transgression as McGwire et al.
I guess Peter has a short memory, vis a vie, “ultimate” Scott Boras clients.
JD Drew blew off the Phillies, who drafted him in the first round, played in an independent league, and went back into the draft.
He lied to the Braves to sign with the Dodgers. Then, worked with Boras and the Red Sox (after telling the Dodgers he wouldn’t opt out) to opt out and sign with the Red Sox.
Jason Varitek also played the Scott Boras draft game, blowing off the Twins for the Mariners.
I guess its ok for Jason and JD to be an “ultimate” Boras client if he ends up in Boston.
Laura,
Don’t get me wrong. I like Andy Pettitte. I could care less about HGH, and steroids for that matter. IMO, its the most overblown “controversy” in sports.
However, there is no denying his reputation took a major hit. Add in the fact he didn’t tell his employers about it until after he signed his deal and that just ain’t kosher.
I hope he comes to his senses and comes back to NY. He has a chance to be on a special team, maybe win a 5th ring, and go out in style.
That said, I have no problems with the Yankees going hard line on his because the offer they made him was more than generous.
“Laura: I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to agree with Vrsce on this one.”
No problem. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Laura: Indeed.
Vrsce
January 7th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Laura
“He is just like Bonds et al. He took illegal drugs to get an
advantage and then he lied about it.
You have quite a double standard.”
Life is funny sometimes. Here I am a Sox fan on a Yankee blog wanting to defend a Yankee player!
I see a world of difference between Pettite and Bonds.
I may be naive but I believe Pettite when he says he used HGH on only two occasions. There is strong evidence that Bonds used on many occasions.
Granted it took him a while to admit it, but Pettite did admit using HGH. Bonds keeps denying and is suspected of lying to a federal court.
In my opinion Bonds has been much more arrogant about this whole thing than Pettite.
“That said, I have no problems with the Yankees going hard line on this because the offer they made him was more than generous.”
SJ44, I will just have to add your name to the long list of people I have an agreement with to agree to disagree.
“I think it’s hilarious that any time a player passes on the Red Sox, an investigation must be made and “lies” must be exposed. It’s great, great stuff. Gammons, Masserotti, keep bringing it.”
So true. But I think the degree of the reaction and the amount of spin is quite remarkable.
To me it suggests that this whole thing completely took them by surprise and they don’t know what to do right now.
The irony is that they stoked the fires so hot about their need for tex and how they knew their organization better than anyone else that it set up impossible expectations.
They still have a very good team but seem to be in a panic and are doing damage control right and left – which of course means absolving themselves from any responsibility.
The little engine that could just never had a chance – big mean mark teixeira was just a liar and took advantage of them.
The degree of self-indulgence is remarkable.
Pettitte came off like the dumb marine who got ordered into performing the code red by the other marine in “A Few Good Men” in the wake of the Mitchell Report. It was tough to watch.
Rebecca – Burnett is what could be called a huge and risky contract. If We sign sheets for one year, how risky is that to the organization? Obviously sheets himself is somewhat likely to get injured but when the benefits when sheets is healthy (which are tremendous) outweight the risk of a contract (which would include a very modest sum of guaranteed money comparitively) the signing is worth it.
To me, sheets is a big risk but signing a small contract does not mean the signing itself is extremely risky if that makes sense. What i mean is if sheets contract is mostly incentive based with very little guaranteed money, the yanks dont have much to lose but a whole lot to gain by making the signing. Its all really a matter of opinion but to me, every one including the media and other teams seem to be completely over-exggerating sheets actual risk merely because he is currently injured while Burnett who has just as bad a history if not worse was held in much higher regard than he should have been because he had a great year last season.
The same thing happened with pavano – a year prior his contract would have looked pretty awful but because he was coming out of a year in which he pitched to a 3 era, it looked great and turned out to be horrendous. On the other hand, someone like jason marquis who was constantly injured and was signed to a small contract by the cardinals in 2004 could be equivalent to sheets right now – every one saw the potential but was worried about the risk but the price was so low that the cardinals practically won the lottery by signing him.
Eventually the price is low enough that the risks become worth it to take on as long as the payout is as high as marquis was or sheets could be next season. Some people seem to think sheets is not worth signing no matter what but this guy started the all star game – he was arguably the best pitcher in baseball during the break not even 6 months ago.
He had one muscle tear after pitching 200 innings for the first time in a couple of years and all of a sudden, he was a viewed as a mess by the media – his arm, his shoulder, his back, his potential for TJ surgery, that he is falling apart. But this is all rumors and talk and scaring teams away and it is only working out in favor of the team that finally signs him. iT DOESNT always work out to go after pitchers that every other team wants (pavano) and shy away from pitchers that no other team wants (marquis) because everyone isnt always right even with all the information and sometimes it is worth it to take that flier out on a guy esp when there is practically nothing to lose.
“Life is funny sometimes. Here I am a Sox fan on a Yankee blog wanting to defend a Yankee player!”
ray, you need to face the facts. You are a closeted Yankee fan. Come out of the closet, ray!! Your parents will understand. Plus, the air is fresher out here.
Ray
You are quite correct.
I was referring to fact of breaking the rules and the lies.
There is no question that Andy was not an inveterate user and may have even been influenced by his famous friend. An ex Sox if I am not mistaken.
And that is the last long post i write about signing sheets.
“And that is the last long post i write about signing sheets.”
Is that a promise?
One last point on Tex and the Red Sox…..
In their meeting in Dallas, Scott Boras told the Red Sox they were the low bidder and it would take 8/176 to get the deal done.
That’s according to Boras and one of his associates, whom I know personally.
Yes, he talked about two voidable options but, they were flexible on that issue. According to the Boras camp, that was not a make or break issue.
The Red Sox asked him that if they accepted, would he shop the offer? Boras said, “No, 8/176, and he’s yours”.
John Henry and Lucchino got pi$$ed off, said no, and the meeting adjorned.
30 minutes later, Henry put out his press release.
That ticked off Teixeira more than his wife hating Newbury St. He thought the negotiations should remain (as they had been) private.
At that point, the Yankees HAD NOT MADE AN OFFER TO MARK TEIXEIRA. Again, that’s FACT. Their initial offer was taken off the table very early in the process.
At the time of the Red Sox meeting with Tex in Dallas, there was no offer from the Yankees on the table.
After the Sox declared they were “out”, they continued to have dialogue with Boras, despite public stances to the contrary.
This is where the info gets to be he said/he said…..
According to the Boras folks, the Red Sox raised their offer to 8/173, no voidable options. The Red Sox deny this. Although, they say (at least to some of their media sychophants), another offer was made.
The Yankees offer came in on December 23. Yes, Tex’s wife wanted NY. However, without a comparable offer, Tex wasn’t coming to NY.
When the offer came in, and it was solid, he said, “yes”.
Bottom line, if the Red Sox went to 8/176 in that Dallas meeting, Mark Teixeira is a Red Sox, despite his wife “hating Newbury St.”, and he being the “ultimate Scott Boras client”, according to fanboy Peter Gammons.
The Sox blew it when they left Dallas without a deal. That’s on them, not on Mrs. Teixeira.
Laura, my congratulations on a string of very sensible comments.
Does Tex have an opt out clause?
Laura
January 7th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
“Life is funny sometimes. Here I am a Sox fan on a Yankee blog wanting to defend a Yankee player!”
ray, you need to face the facts. You are a closeted Yankee fan. Come out of the closet, ray!! Your parents will understand. Plus, the air is fresher out here.
————————————————————
I told Ray in a message a little while ago, that he has been so thoroughly brainwashed that we’d send him to “The Evil Empire Deprogramming Institute” so he could fit back into polite society.
CB,
And they had been riding so high on their victory over baseball decorum and Japanese baseball before that bastard Teixeira foiled two years of careful Red Sox planning. I mean, who other than the Red Sox, could have noticed that Teixeira carried a high OBP, high SLG and could really pick it at first? Tell me who? Certainly not the two teams that successfully traded for him over the last two seasons, and certainly not the Yankees who had used the OBP model to put together their successful teams of the `90’s, `50’s, `40’s, `30’s and `20’s. No one else could have seen it but them! And then when someone let’s slip that he is the Sox #1 target, all these other teams, these Sox followers have to jump in and make murky the waters of the Sox offseason plan.
Laura, no OPT-OUTS, no options.
Ray:
Admit it, you’re a Yankee fan.
It’s okay. We understand that you stay in the closet for safety reasons.
=D
Hey guys sorry if someone else already said this. Maybe the Yanks are shopping both Nady and Swisher not because of a logjam but maybe just throwing it out, they are really interested in Manny. Hey its the Yanks you never know
“Laura, my congratulations on a string of very sensible comments.”
Well, I don’t quite know how to take that, Wave. You make it sound like my comments are usually non-sensible. I’d like to think that you aren’t insulting me. We Pettitte fans do need to stick together, you know.
“ray, you need to face the facts. You are a closeted Yankee fan. Come out of the closet, ray!! Your parents will understand. Plus, the air is fresher out here.”
Laura and GB7…..I can’t come out of the closet because Gammons has his foot against the door!!
“Laura, no OPT-OUTS, no options.”
Thanks, GB.
“In their meeting in Dallas, Scott Boras told the Red Sox they were the low bidder and it would take 8/176 to get the deal done.
That’s according to Boras and one of his associates, whom I know personally.”
SJ,
Don’t know if you caught Gordon Edes’ column today but if not take a look. It was linked on MLBTR and I read it this morning.
It’s in line with much of what you were saying regarding that meeting Tex had with the Sox in Dallas.
“So the player and agent took another tack: raise the annual average value of your eight-year proposal, they told Boston, to a point above the $23 million per year of the deal signed by Sabathia, and Teixeira would be going to a news conference in Fenway Park. Or the Red Sox could have guaranteed another year, matching the nine-year proposal Teixeira’s camp said he had already gotten from the Washington Nationals (an offer that the Nationals to this day have not confirmed).
Teixeira thought the Red Sox were at least prepared to mull it over. Instead, they balked, Henry sending out an email to the media that the Red Sox would not be a factor. The Henry protest was construed as a bluff, and it was. Boston kept talking to Boras, though in the end, they did not make substantive changes to their offer.”
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ge-teixeirareconstruct010609&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
I’ve got to disagree with some of what’s been posted about Ben Sheets.
The idea that GMs, and the physicians they hire to consult, are wrong to see Sheets as risky is not quite right. Sheets is considered a risk not just because of his history, but also because of what they’ve seen in the most recent medical exams.
AJ Burnett doesn’t come without risk, either, because of his history, but his recent medical exams have, unlike Sheets’, looked good. The word on Burnett is also that he corrected some slight mechanical flaws prior to the 2008 season which he, and, apparently, others, think will help to ensure his good health in the future.
On a different note, I don’t get at all the statement about “Jeter’s arm not being what it used to be.” Maybe someone else could explain that one.
“Laura and GB7…..I can’t come out of the closet because Gammons has his foot against the door!!”
LOL! His foot? More likely a truck.
SJ44,
“The Red Sox asked him that if they accepted, would he shop the offer? Boras said, “No, 8/176, and he’s yours”.
John Henry and Lucchino got pi$$ed off, said no, and the meeting adjorned.”
What do you think it was that caused Henry to get upset? Did they go all the way to Texas with the thought in mind that Teixeira was going to sign on their terms and their terms only?
To think they gave up on Tex over less than $1/yr is just incredible. It’s not like the extra $7mil was going to break them.
ray (sox fan)
January 7th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
“ray, you need to face the facts. You are a closeted Yankee fan. Come out of the closet, ray!! Your parents will understand. Plus, the air is fresher out here.”
Laura and GB7…..I can’t come out of the closet because Gammons has his foot against the door!!
————————————————————
I know Ray…you’d rather gnaw your foot off, rather than wearing red sox.
Bru ….. you saved me the trouble on Wakefield’s stats. There’s some downside because his durability (bad back) is waning. But his 2008 peripherals were excellent. His batting average against was one of the best in the league.
Last year, he was the SP who never got any runs; hence, the mediocre W-L record.
“Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Staying to write the story
January 7th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Ray:
Admit it, you’re a Yankee fan.
It’s okay. We understand that you stay in the closet for safety reasons.”
Rebecca, I will say this. It is good to have you back on the blog more regularly.
I enjoyed your contribution the other day. Some people say the blogs should be strictly about baseball, but learning about the people and other things about an area are very interesting and you are a good writer.
Thanks for the timeline SJ – makes everything very clear (for the record, have been reading along, but work is crazy so posting is hard
)
Wave your hat,
you keep saying if on the free market pettitte could get more but HE IS on the free market. If he wanted to play elsewhere, he could and he has been open for other teams to negotiate with and there is no legit report he has received any better offer. So pettitte cannot receive any more than the yanks are offering on a free agent market. And he keeps saying he wants to play for the yanks which again takes away ALL OF HIS LEVERAGE. He wants to have his cake and eat it too and life doesnt work that way even when you are a baseball player sometimes. He is 36, either coming off an injury or the worst season of his career, wants to sign a contract with one team in all of baseball and wants them to sign him on his terms – shockingly, this is not how things work and pettitte is learning that the hard way i guess. I realize he is prideful but ten million for a player like andy is not a punishment or a slight. It is what he is worth at this point in the free agent market. iF ANYTHING, the yanks are giving him more than another player in the same situation without the long history pettitte has with the yanks.
No insult, Laura. My congratulations were sincere.
I did think that some comments from other people, not you, on the whole Pettitte imbroglio were not very sensible.
All my comments are always sensible, of course.
Donnie Baseball: Trading Swisher or Nady for Manny makes no sense when the team needs better defense.
Jake: It’s a product of age.
I know it’s forbidden to criticize the captain, but Jeter’s not a sprightly 22 year-old any more.
“Only Andy is not Posada or Rivera.”
Right. If he signs another contract it will be for a lot less money and for just one year.
“Both Posada and Rivera
1) Have never played for another team”
Irrelevant. There is nothing dishonest about playing for a team other than the Yankees. And it’s not like Pettitte pulled a Clemens by “retiring” and then signing a surprise deal. He chose the Astros’ lower offer over the Yankees’ higher offer. It was his right.
“2) Have never been accused of using PEDs”
This only affects his value if the Yankees think he’s in danger of decline or indictment. Their $10 million offer is almost certainly based on their predictions of what a PED-free Pettitte will do in 2009. I disagree with the view that the Yankees are entitled to some sort of price cut on Pettitte because he jerked them around regarding the Mitchell Report. They are entitled to say “we won’t deal with a player like you” and not give him an offer. They are not entitled to say “you have to roll over and take whatever we give you.”
“And then Posada was coming off of a career year and Rivera is a sure-fire HoF candidate who just decided to post career statistics after he signed his big contract.”
Right, which is why Pettitte is looking at 1 year, $10 million and not 3 years, $45 million. My point is that Posada and Rivera did not say “we are Yankees for life, and we will take reasonable contracts for the good of the team.” They had tremendous negotiating power over the Yankees and used it to get borderline ludicrous contracts. But I don’t see anyone saying that Posada and Rivera are jerks or bad Yankees.
This is a business. The team and the player are entitled to use whatever leverage they have to get the best contract possible. That’s the beauty of free agency.
“Given Pettitte’s recent history, it would be a bad idea for him to expect to be treated in the same way as Posada and Rivera.”
It might be a bad idea, but the bottom line remains that 1 year, $10 million is still a good fit for both team and player. If Pettitte gives up on this deal and ends up taking a $7 million deal to pitch for the Dodgers, or retires, all we can say for sure is that he lost out on X millions of dollars. I see no reason to drag him through the mud. Pettitte is entitled to negotiate and walk away if he doesn’t like what he’s offered.
This is likely all a moot discussion anyway. Everyone knows that Pettitte would be a good fit on the 2009 Yankees. He will end up taking the $10 million deal.
Phil @ 5:31, “I’ll puke in your dead skull!!!” Great line from a great movie.
Ray(Luke)-Come to the dark side!! This is the year that the empire strikes back. Time to join em.
Ray:
You give me too much credit, but thank you just the same.
I’m glad to have some free time again, even if it’ll last only another few days.
“All my comments are always sensible, of course.”
Yeah, mine are too. I wonder how it is we do that.
“I mean, who other than the Red Sox, could have noticed that Teixeira carried a high OBP, high SLG and could really pick it at first? Tell me who?”
At times I wonder if the folks running the red sox are now believing their own press clippings.
They are a very well run team there’s no doubt about it. They have a very good farm system and their payroll structure is very favorable to their team.
That said, it’s almost as if management – and not the players – are the stars of that team. It’s as if they won the world series through management rather than through the play on the field.
That theme of their management prowess just keeps growing and growing to the point now where they are almost beyond reproach. Anything they do can be explained away.
An alternative hypothesis would be that the Sox won 2 WS over the past 4 years because they had one of the great 3-4 hitting combinations in recent history and a dominant post season power pitcher that excelled in short series baseball.
I’m willing to bet it’s the players on the field that did it.
It’ll be interesting to see how the management all stars do without Manny, with Papi possibly in decline and Beckett having health issues again last season.
“Right, which is why Pettitte is looking at 1 year, $10 million and not 3 years, $45 million. My point is that Posada and Rivera did not say “we are Yankees for life, and we will take reasonable contracts for the good of the team.” They had tremendous negotiating power over the Yankees and used it to get borderline ludicrous contracts. But I don’t see anyone saying that Posada and Rivera are jerks or bad Yankees.”
This was kind of my point.
Pettitte doesn’t have the leverage power that Posada and Rivera did.
Brian (Red Sox Fan)
January 7th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Bru ….. you saved me the trouble on Wakefield’s stats. There’s some downside because his durability (bad back) is waning. But his 2008 peripherals were excellent. His batting average against was one of the best in the league.
Last year, he was the SP who never got any runs; hence, the mediocre W-L record.
————————————————————
Brian, you’ve just made Bru’s day. You’re the only one that’s ever agreed with him, and it took a Red Sox fan to do it.
http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/st/archives/2009/01/3_up_manny_lowe.html
i agreewith joel about manny
think Manny’s contract will end up looking something like this: two years guaranteed at $50 million with two mutual option years at another $50 million. That would allow Ramirez to walk away with a contract he claims is a four-year, $100 million deal. He will average $25 million a year, the second largest multi-year average ever after Alex Rodriguez. And while there has been general speculation that Manny would stay away from option years considering how much he detested the options with the Red Sox, on these options he has control. So if the economy is better in two years and he wants to try to chase the money again, he can opt out.
Maybe ray can be a switchhitter and root for both teams. He’d probably be the only one of his kind.
I never said I wanted them to trade Nady or Swisher actually Ive been saying they should keep them. You are very quick to jump all over people arent you???
<>
Huh? What’s a product of age? I’ve seen a decline in his range, but no decline in his arm.
That’s why I asked for an explanation.
Now that Giambi has officially signed with Oakland, it will be interesting to see how the Bay Are fans treat him. He’s been a pariah there ever since stealing $120 million from the Yankees.
I can’t blame him for taking the money, but the full-circle return of the prodigal, dissipated son will make for a good story. If he doesn’t hit, it will be a brutal summer for him, and he’ll have earned it.
CB,
They are a very funny bunch indeed. Now, I do think they have a “big move” that will come up out of leftfield, that will have turned out to be their plan since the point when Boras and that Bastard Teixeira tried to bait and switch them after they’d flown all the way down to Texas (and done this in the offseason and without Bud Selig having first offered Henry sweetheart deals on the Rangers and Astros!). Whatever it is, it’ll probably be a good deal for them, but and even more entertaining story for the rest of us.
“I know it’s forbidden to criticize the captain, but Jeter’s not a sprightly 22 year-old any more.”
No, but I don’t think he’s declined as much as people like to say. I think he played a lot of last season injured, particularly with that bad hand (I think he had a messed up thigh or groin as well – he seemed to be running in pain). We will see how he does this year if he stays healthy then we’ll know how much declining as actually taken place.
Laura
January 7th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Maybe ray can be a switchhitter and root for both teams. He’d probably be the only one of his kind.
————————————————————
Let’s see, now. Ray says he’s in the closet and you wonder if he could be a switch hitter.
I’m not one to accuse people.
Jake,
Apparently his old team – the brewers dont mind what is in ben sheets medical records because they still want to re-sign him. How ironic it is that the one team that probably knows ben sheets health the best is the one team in the majors that thinks he is worth the risk… That is a bit more difficult to explain i guess when try to say how risky he is.
By the way, I never said he wasnt risky – I said he was risky. And i never said there were no red flags in his medical reports – im sure there are some red flags but I think the teams are exaggerating his risk because he is having problems currently and he has had so many in the past. That tends to happen. iF sheets had the exact same medical report but was currently as a healthy as a horse i SERIOUSLY DOUBT there would be this much concern over his health. Further, he is risky but at some price as I said in the last post the risk is worth the reward.
i THINK at 8 mil guaranteed his risk becomes worth it which is 6 mil less than the brewers offered him in arbitration not even 4 months ago. There are the brewers again who are the team that know him the best feeling he may be worth 14 mil if he decided to accept. Obviously, sheets believed he would get more than 14 million in the open market because he declined the 14 mil. So sheets and his agents felt like his risk would be worth more than 14 mil to some team and they both know sheets medical records pretty well too one would assume. Again, you like many, many postings about sheets focusing on other teams perceptions when other teams are wrong a heck of a lot. Like all the team i hear cashman was right in signing pavano because every team wanted pavano but he was wrong because you shouldnt always listen to every other team or follow the crowd in these matters. I would see what his own team the brewers are doing before I look at what other teams are doing because they look at a couple of notes of paper by doctors while the brewers have doctors that have been with sheets his entire career that they could consult with. Which is more accurate?
i GUESS NOT LAURE BUT THIS IS THE LAST ONE.
The fact is that we’ll never know what happened in the Teixeira negotiations. Red Sox and Yankee fans will cheery-pick quotes to correspond with their own biases.
Teixeira has contributed to this by changing course during his two consecutive PCs. Perfectly ubderstandable …. in the first, he was talking to local NY TV/Radio media, and tailored his message to the NY crowd. In the second conference, heavily populated by print media from the “jilted” teams’ cities, he threw a few roses in their direction.
Something like an old-time politician on a train tour, saying different (sometimes contradictory) things at different whistlestops along the way.
Therefore, all of what Teixeira said really didn’t mesh, but so what? He said in press conference #1 that he had made up his mind two weeks before Christmas, but he gave a different take to the Washington, Baltimore, Boston and LA press (when the issue of “playing” people came up). So that was a little damage control on the fly.
But it really doesn’t matter, does it? The way things are going right now, Teixeira will be vigorouslt booed at Fenway, and Pettitte will be vigorously booed at YS (assuming he goes elsewhere).
Who would have thought that 3 weeks ago?
This blog would be better served with Sam writing full time and Pete being once a week. Much better writer
Drive,
Henry and Lucchino, especially Lucchino, HATE Scott Boras.
Hate him as much as George hates Arn Tellum! lol
Seriously, there is a lot of animosity between Lucchino and Boras,and Henry really dislikes Scott personally.
From what I was told, there were some, shall we say, “snappy comments” made by Lucchino toward Boras in that meeting that made everybody uncomfortable.
In these level of negotiations, ego management is crucial.
This is one area Brian Cashman doesn’t get enough credit, IMO.
Listen to what Tex and CC said about Cashman in their PC’s. He kept the ego stuff in check and really related to the players. That helps in negotiations.
Look at the way Cash is handling the Pettitte negotiations. There are some hard feelings from some in the Yankee organization re: Andy Pettitte. Especially since some (not all but some) feel they were blindsided again by Pettitte over his hard line stance in this negotiation.
Cash doesn’t get caught up in that stuff. Everything he says publicly and privately about Pettitte is very complimentary.
One of my law school professors called it, “keeping the ball rolling”, when negotiations become tense. That’s a real strong suit of Cash’s.
Players take note of that and that’s why Cash’s rep among players in the game is very, very positive.
There is so much tension between Lucchino, Henry and Boras, I believe that got in the way of a deal.
I’ve known Scott for 20+ years. He’s great at what he does but, he can drive ‘ya nuts! lol
The key is not to let him to get to you. Clearly, he got to Henry and Lucchino, they took their eye off the prize, and they lost it.
y r so many sox fans posting here? Go back to 38 pitches and cry u babies
And posada’s contract was probably not a good contract but the yanks were forced to give him that kind of money in fear that the mets would take him away. Pettitte does not have that kind of LEVERAGE because no team is about to take him. Posada;s contract was also probably not very smart and was done our of fear and out of respect for posada’s longevity with the team – pettitte left the yanks mid career so he kind of missed the boat on getting the whole career thing and the yanks may have learned their lesson. That last sentence is just a guess.
GB7 …. any port in a storm. But Wakefield’s peripherals were good last year.
i think manny is in serious danger of looking really stupid. if the dodgers decide to walk away and sign dunn or abreu, who will he turn to? and why would the dodgers raise their initial offer? if indeed the angels are out and the mets don’t want him, manny’s in trouble
Im sure pete appreciate that eric – how about you just read sam’s stuff then and stop being obnoxious to the person whos blog you are writing in and criticizing at the same time.
This team needs a 5th starter . .perez , sheets , garland. .
Hughes and Coke dont have enough innings ( arm strength) to be starters . Joba doesnt either . .plus with Burnett we neeed someone to eat up innings .
I dont want the bullpen blowing arms every fourth and fifth day because our starters cant go past 5 innings
-Mike
The Dodgers are way off their on their offseason ticket and suite sales and they think people are waiting to see if they get Manny back before they commit. I don’t think they will really be out of it unless some team comes in a grabs Manny first.
I call BS with this SJ44 guy. Saying he knows Boras? Come on dude. Why lie on a comments board?
What Gammons is doing is simply disgraceful. He’s one of the greatest baseball writers of all time, of that there is no doubt.
His piece about Game 6 of the 1975 World Series is one of the greatest baseball stories ever written.
But that interview he did with WEEI was a joke. Bringing Teixeira’s wife into the discussion, in that manner, was out of line.
Gammons spins everything to the Red Sox favor and spews out anything that Epstein tells him. Epstein, a guy he plays guitar with for crying out loud.
Gammons is a caricature of himself now, pure and simple. All objectivity has gone out the window with him It’s sad, it really is.
Brian (Red Sox Fan)
January 7th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
GB7 …. any port in a storm. But Wakefield’s peripherals were good last year.
————————————————————
Good, maybe…”fantastic numbers” and “on another planet”….no.
“From what I was told, there were some, shall we say, “snappy comments” made by Lucchino toward Boras in that meeting that made everybody uncomfortable.”
I read in a couple of places that Lucchino turned to Teixeira while boras was sigging there and flat out asked Tex if Boras had informed him of the Red Sox offer.
He reportedly asked Tex if Boras had even bothered to pass on the Sox offer to tex, basically insinuating that Boras lies to his clients and only passes on selects offers/ information.
If true – yeah that would create a lot of tense feelings in there. Hard to believe anyone would say something like that but when there’s bad blood…
It’ll be interesting to see how hard the sox push to resign Jason Bay vs. going after Holliday next off season. I can’t imagine they’d be real eager to go after Holliday.
But they no longer have the luxury of manny and besides Lars Anderson they don’t have any true blue chip power hitting prospects in their upper levels…
Nick & Rebecca-
FWIW, bru made the comment about moving A Rod to 1st.
kd,
Manny isnt in danger of looking stupid – it is far too late for that. He is in danger of feeling stupid maybe but he has looked stupid for years now but his arrogant, obnoxious, egotistical attitude may take a hit when he realized he isnt the genius he thought he was when he past up a guaranteed 40 million dollars to hit free agency. And he deserves every single penny he loses. Who says there is no justice in this world?
SJ…who are you? I’m more intriguied now than ever.
Your posts are always great, and I must say, I come here as much for your comments as Peter’s.
Sorry, but, Gammons is not and never was in the same room as writers like Grantland Rice, Ring Lardner, Jr., Ferman Bisher, Joe Falls and Jerome Holtzman. Even Jimmy Cannon was better.
Donnie: I guess I have been, haven’t I? My apologies. It’s been one of those days.
Laura: I know this is weird, but I agree with you, re: Jeter.
River Av:
I dunno, IIRC, last winter SJ knew A-Rod was coming back to the Yankees before anyone else did.
I might be confusing him with Miller, though.
What are the odds the Yankees go after Holliday next year?
I’ve read his dad wants him to be a Yankee. Any truth to that?
“This blog would be better served with Sam writing full time and Pete being once a week. Much better writer”
Im confused. Earlier this week people were ripping Pete for having Sam pinch hit. Now they want him as a starter.
Question for all. Have we ever signed someone in the winter and proceeded to trade him before spring training? Im just thinking of the Swisher deal. I feel bad for him if he has to go, he looked so excited to be here. Wish he was that pinch hitter that turned into that starter.
Mike
I agree we need a fifth starter – Pettitte, sheets, garland maybe, trade for someone like harang (which would be ridiculous) as mentioned above but I dont want and we dont need Oliver perez. He has potential sure but whats the point of signing someone who walks the ballpark most days and throws a million pitches. He also frequently leaves the game in the early innings in a blowout destroying the pen. If we sign someone else, we need either a really good pitcher like harang or sheets or at the very least an innings eater like pettitte or garland. Oli perez while he shows glimmers of brilliance falls into neither category still struggling to find himself. i WOULDNT touch Oli perez and god knows what boras is asking for the guy – probably more than we want to spend. I also doubt he will do any better for us than any one we plug in internally and will destroy the pen more than most of them.
I think we are all tired of the Pettite situation and want it to end one way or the other. I’d be nervous going into ‘09 counting on Joba, Hguhes, Aceves et all to make 60 starts but it wouldn’t be fatal. Pettite is deal but there other options so lets get on with it.
It’s silly to think the HGH incident on the heels os signing last year’s contract shouldn’t matter. Everything matters and everything is a factor. He obviously has a lot of positives, but he has negatives too. $ 10 Million for a guy who had his third straight year with an ERA over 4.00 and a terrible finish is not “low balling” him in my mind.
I agree with the shots being taken at Gammons. No real analysis there but a lot of fan-type pouting. Taking a shot at Tex’s wife was really classless and I’m sure he regrets it.
We should all hope the Red Sox relationship with Scot Boras deteriorates even further. Boras, like it or not, is part of the landscape.Either they learn how to deal with him or they will have less access to the best players in the market.They and their mouthpieces can whine till the cows come home,but Boras isn’t going anywhere. And if Boston ever boycotted Boras clients, it brings the price down for everybody else.
SOS
We traded swisher for practically nothing – how has he rose in value since then. I dont understand all this talk of trading swisher when he isnt worth anything more than we got him for which was almost nothing. He needs to play a bit before he has some value back. And swisher is making quite a bit of money – more than 5 million for a comeback player hopeful. Nady has far more value – if anything, we will trade nady.
“SJ…who are you?”
Im not going to give it away but im sure youv heard that Cashman reads this blog. He didnt get his name “stealth” for no reason. Connect the dots, thats all im saying. A better way to find out was to ask what kind of music does he listen to.
What did gammons say about tex’s wife? hE REALLY is turning into an idiotic fraud is Gammon. Reporters have went from trying to be objective to showing hints of favoritism to seemingly not even caring any more if baseball fans know which team they support.
Dave .. We both agree with all the Tex talk . .we are OVERLOOKING the 5th spot. .
But its more than just the 5th spot we are talking about here . .Its pitching depth .
I like Perez .. heres why
1. He’s always healthy
2. He can eat up innings
3. He’s a big gam pitcher
I know he walks ALOT of batters . but i believe my first three points outweigh the bad.
BUT hopefully the Yankees smarten up and explore Sheets first .
Ray … Brian … the dark side beckons you both … go ahead …. reach for your light saber … and you both are ours …
CB–
I heard the same thing yesterday not sure who reported i it miht have been on XM 175 but I heard that int eh afternoon somewhere. Unreal not the best way to ingratite yourself with a potential player.
SoS
Two different Sams. Sam I Am is more or less reviled, while Sam Borden is a much missed sports writer. I don’t think it’s necessary to insult Pete to appreciate Sam, though.
S.o.S.: I’m guessing that person was referring to Sam Borden, not cigar-chomping villain Sam I Am.
Buddy: I just want to know what that other blog was that gave me ‘good press’. I get so little.
Speaking of press, here are a few quotes from the SF Chronicle’s resident sports curmudgeon on Giambi-to-the-A’s:
“So [A's owner] Wolff, confronted by the vision of trying to promote Jack Hannahan Bobblehead Day, came to the realization that a few identifiable employees would be good for the community.”
“So it’s Jason Giambi, and why not? He’s not packing the same salary as last season, when he earned $1,046,935 for every hit by pitch, and got hit 22 times. He also had the second-best homers-to-at-bats ratio in the American League, and didn’t ask for MannyMoney (copyright The San Francisco Chronicle, so hands off if you don’t want lawyers in your breakfast nook).
This signing doesn’t put Beane even with Brian Sabean for the off-season, but it closes the gap some in a contest played only by yahoos like us. The A’s need a sassier, feistier stance for the public, one they didn’t have a year ago, and Giambi, though a stopgap measure until one of these two-veterans-for-five-projects deals comes up trumps, is the most affordable fellow with his skill set who could get folks to come back to the Coliseum.
Plus, unlike the Holliday deal, buying Giambi doesn’t cost the A’s any of their prospects, which appeals to Beane’s inner Beane.
In short, Jason Giambi’s return is the third-biggest thing the A’s have done this winter, after Holliday and the radio deal. And yes, that’s the right order, because if nothing else, you can’t see a gold thong on the radio.”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/SPSP154GKQ.DTL
Nice S.o.S. I can see the conspiracy theories unfolding now.
But seriously, I remember SJ saying he represented and NFL player in some kind of dispute.
Then you could try and piece things together from there…try and figure out the significance of the 44. It’s not his age, I know that much.
It’s an interesting puzzle…if I had time I would try and figure it out…but I don’t.
I would say something along the lines of “Ray, I am your father”, but the anatomical and chronological difficulties with that statement means that someone else should probably make it.
Actually as Iam watching Hot Stove on MLB Network I now remember it was Heyman who reported it on the show last night so if it comes from Heyman re Boros probably true
The obvious guess is the 44 comes from Mr October but that’s not to say SJ’s Mr October himself.
I still wonder who Bobcat and Miller really were.
Sitting here watching clips on MLBTV of Sandy Koufax. It’s hard to believe that any pitcher could have had a more beautiful delivery and follow-through. Absolutely the most perfect pitcher I ever saw.
“Buddy: I just want to know what that other blog was that gave me ‘good press’. I get so little.”
Damn Nick,
Do we not give you enough attention on this blog. Youv been riding Buddy for that fans name for two days now. Thats it! Im going to send you a dog for SoCal.
Thanks guys on the Sam Im not confusion.
Rebecca – true, but then again you could be Shmi
the red sox without manny are a more manageable bunch. i think that team got hot after manny was traded because they were happy to be without that guy. in 09, if big papi hits and lowell doesn’t, it’s bonds treatment. if big papi doesn’t hit, then you have to count on jd drew. just typing that put a smile on my face.
Ok here is a question for you watching a Dodger specil on MLB Network and they showed not sure who pitched a screwball. Growing up I remmeber Tug used to use one as well. How come no one uses that pitch anymore. Has it evolved into something else. does it cause to much tear on the arm?? Any specific reasons.
LOOK HERE !
Reds have intrest in nady and swisher even tho I know its a small chance …
How bout robbie cano and phillip h….and nick swisher or nady
For edison volquez …and brandon phillips ..man would that be great
No chance right ??????
Justin:
For volquez, you’re talking Joba, Jackson, Montero, Betance, Cano and Wang.
And I’m just getting started.
“Maybe ray can be a switchhitter and root for both teams. He’d probably be the only one of his kind.”
Could happen. I had a friend from New England who went to college in Evanston, Ill. He got along ok evan though he was bi-soxual.
S.o.S.: Ha, good point, but I have some leverage with Buddy. He’d like me to send him a Moose Bar or two and the packet has not yet been posted.
44 is a significant number in Freemasonry. So, it’s obvious that SJ is an important member of the illuminati. His job is to come on here and control us with his so called “inside information” to get us all excited and spend money on the Yankees. The Yankees then funnel the money to the Bilderberg group, who use it to control our minds.
Or, 44 could just mean that he’s a fan of Reggie Jackson.
Or Danny Pasqua.
Tom wins the internet.
bobcat, miller, sj44…. the great mysteries of life
wonder if this blog will change with registration?
44? Football? Could he be Tom Rathman?
All i know about SJ is he’s smart and part of reason is because his b-day is in the same month as mine april. More importantly he owned some minor league squads. I believe Halliday was on one of those teams?
Ok I thinkl ur goiing a lil to far there rebecca …
Maybe
Phill
Kennedy
Cano
And nady or swisher
Gets it done
For volquez. And phillips
If it was 42, I could make a _Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy_ reference, but alas…
gayle
January 7th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Ok here is a question for you watching a Dodger specil on MLB Network and they showed not sure who pitched a screwball. Growing up I remmeber Tug used to use one as well. How come no one uses that pitch anymore. Has it evolved into something else. does it cause to much tear on the arm?? Any specific reasons.
————————————————————
The two most recent screwball pitchers for the Dodgers were Fernando Valensuela and relief pitcher Mike Marshall. Back in the 60s they had Phil Regan and Ron Perranoski.
“He’d like me to send him a Moose Bar or two and the packet has not yet been posted.”
I heard that the Moose Bars are no longer being made after retirement. Never had them but they must be pretty damn good to wheel and deal for some expired ones. Ill let you continue your goose chase along with who’s behind the mask of SJ.
Rebecca, you just got a friend for life with me. Great reference.
Now where did I put my towel???
S.o.S.: Don’t we have the same birthday or something?
I’m 12 April.
Justin, I don’t think you understand what type of player Volquez is for Cincinnati.
It’d be like asking the Yankees to trade Jeter in 1997.
Gayle – a screwball is very tough on the arm. And you can get the same effect with a circle change(up). So there’s no need to learn it or use it.
Ex Yankee Jim Mecir threw the screwball
Mr. Exceptional: Don’t you know you can’t lose that?!
A screwball is thrown in the exact opposite of a curveball. The elbow and wrist turn basically inside out. Try turning your wrist, hand and elbow pointing outwards and turning a doorknob. That’s a screwball.
Becca,
Yep. 12 it is.
Rebecca: I know it’s about the most massively useful thing I could own.
Justin do you wanna get rid of anyone else? lol
The palm of Hall of Fame screwballer Carl Hubbell’s pitching hand ended up facing out!
Re: Rumors
Peter Gammons, Joel Sherman and Buster Olney all reported that the Yankees would likely move Matsui to clear the DH spot for the OF surplus, Damon and Posada. Even though it’s true that Damon and Posada are longshots to effectively defend center field and Posada, these reports were nothing but bunk perpetrated by a naive media that doesn’t know what it’s talking about.
Now John Heyman says there’s no way the Yankees are trading Matsui and the Yankees are looking to trade Swisher or Nady which of course does nothing to address the potential logjam at DH. We must remind ourselves that as a member of the media, Heyman’s reports are pure fact and should be treated accordingly. The Yankees will indeed trade Nady or Swisher. The media says so.
re: rumors (edit)
Peter Gammons, Joel Sherman and Buster Olney all reported that the Yankees would likely move Matsui to clear the DH spot for the OF surplus, Damon and Posada. Even though it’s true that Damon and Posada are longshots to effectively defend center field and catcher, these reports were nothing but bunk perpetrated by a naive media that doesn’t know what it’s talking about.
Now John Heyman says there’s no way the Yankees are trading Matsui and the Yankees are looking to trade Swisher or Nady which of course does nothing to address the potential logjam at DH. We must remind ourselves that as a member of the media, Heyman’s reports are pure fact and should be treated accordingly. The Yankees will indeed trade Nady or Swisher. The media says so.
Mike
I think oli is a mistake but id probably rather have him then no one except the kids for the fifth and eventually fourth spots. And thas not even including any injuries. Everyone always seems to conveniently forget that we have many fluke injuries every single season and then, tells me its not cashmans fault because how could he know that _______ (insert name here ) would get injured. I know how because IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE SEASON. bUT YOU win plenty of points in my book for wanting sheets. He is definitely the way to go if pettitte is totally out. I think eventually the yanks will grow a couple more brain cells realize sheets price is so low he may be worth it and start discussing incentives and markers for bonuses and such.
Sheets has never in his career pitched less than 100 innnings so the chance that he is out the whole season is slim to none. Especially considering most of his injuries this off season have probably been completely fabricated by the media in this strange trend to completely exaggerate the truth. The only injury he has had this year was a torn flexor muscle – his shoulder hasnt been injured since early 2007 and his back was well before that. Neither of those are the reason he came out after 200 innings this season. We really only need him until hughes or kennedy develop and with an incentive laden contract, I wont lose any sleep over paying sheets 8 to 10 mil for pitching til the all star break or a little longer and him being healthy the whole year would instantly make the team an automatic 100 win team. I agree Oli perez is good at times but he will completely wear out the pen by all his early games exits so thats why I am wary. He is so terrible sometimes that he comes out in the first inning which really hampers the pen for a while.
Id still take pettitte back for that ten mil and all will be okay. Id also see what garland’s looking for. id explore trade options for Nady and prospects or salary dumps. But any way you slice it, we need to add another starter because its too risky otherwise. If we have a single injury, we are automatically relying on hughes or kennedy to jump into the majors no matter when the injury is. If we have a major injury – we are basically relying on aceves, hughes, kennedy and coke to fill in for the fifth spot in the rotation, take the spot of the injured pitcher and take over for joba at some point. That is too much to expect from those 4 and geise needs to be in the pen as a long reliever so he cannot be relied upon as a starter.
I also dont like taking coke out of the pen to start because he is the only other lefty we have outside of marte that we can use currently – i dont mind coke making a spot start or two but putting him in the rotation for any significant amount of time is probably going to be a disaster. So without another signing, we are either forcing all three of wang, CC and AJ to stay healthy the entire season, relying on hughes and kennedy to start consistently this season (when they havent really proved they are ready to take the ball yet in the majors) or creating a complete mess by having aceves, coke and geise all start for significant time severely weakening the rotation and the pen (if hughes and kennedy arent ready).
Gayle, here is a textbook explaination and pictures of how to throw a screwball.
http://www.ehow.com/how_3186_throw-screwball.html
Let’s not start any panics here. New Moose Bars are still for sale at Wolfgang Candy, no expired chocolate delights here.
Nick-
I’m trying to remember, but if I had to venture a guess, I would say “It is High…” I know they jumped all over the bru comment & then later mentioned you, SJ & some others.
I can’t wait to sink my choppers into a Moose bar or two.
If there has to be an odd man out, it should be Nady.
Cincinnati would be a good landing spot for him. He could put up good numbers in that park, enhancing his free agent value. I’m sure Scott Boras would be okay with that.
“Maybe
Phill
Kennedy
Cano
And nady or swisher
Gets it done
For volquez. And phillips”
Justin do you wanna get rid of anyone else? lol”
Igawa would have saved us from getting rid of all those guys.
Buddy and Nick: I think it was the It is High guys, too.
I tried searching their archives to no avail, went back like 3 weeks.
I have been looking everywhere for a Wii Fit, anyone have the inside scoop?
GreenBeret7
January 7th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
“A screwball is thrown in the exact opposite of a curveball. The elbow and wrist turn basically inside out. Try turning your wrist, hand and elbow pointing outwards and turning a doorknob. That’s a screwball.”
Somehow I think it is very appropriate that GB7 knows all about screwballs.
Just harassing you a little bit GB!
Wow! I believe the Yankee management is a bit angry. Perhaps they will push the limits & go for the jugular. The prices are dropping on some stars that may play into a gift for the Yankees.
I forsee Manny taking a 2 year Deal with incentives to come to the Bronx!
I also see Sheets signing a 1 or 2 year deal with incentives as well with the Yankees!
Lastly, Pettite will sign and come back too with a 2 yr deal to save face for $15M. Nady gets traded to NL for prospects.
This is a version of letting things play out and come to you for the Yankees.
Damon will play some CF & LF. Manny will DH & play RF in NY & LF in Boston. Joba will be setup guy for 2009.
CF Damon (LF)
SS Jeter
3B Arod
RF Manny (DH)
1B Tex
DH Matsui (CF-Melky)
2B Cano
C Posada
LF Swisher (RF)
Buddy:
http://www.overstock.com/Books-Movies-Music-Games/Wii-Fit-Bundle-Wii-Fit-Fit-Board-Sport-Mat-1-Bonus-Game/3516577/product.html
Thanks to all on the screwball
Green it was in fact Mike Marhsall they were showing
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=988244563
Randy Levine was on CNBC.
Thanks Tom! I have used the Wii tracker & am looking to spend under $200.
Guys with all your talk bout Volquez, dont forget bout the possibility of maybe Bronson coming to the Yanks as the 5th starter??
Buddy, as far as the Wii fit…
you can probably get one in “like new” condition and still in the box from Andruw Jones.
I looked at the contracts for Harang and Arroyo on Cots.
A little too expensive if you ask me.
Charles Bronson or Bronson Pinchot?
Maybe names like Bronson,Keppinger,were thrown around in conversation.
More of the Gammons Poison Pen/Tongue. Most have been mentioned.
Gammons On Varitek, Teixeira
By Cork Gaines [January 7 at 6:01pm CST]
Chad Finn of the Boston Globe recaps Peter Gammons’ appearance today on WEEI.
Gammons believes the Red Sox would sign Jason Varitek if he offered his services for $2MM. Gammons still believes the Red Sox would prefer to take the draft picks and trade for a different catcher.
***Well, no kidding, Gammons. I’m sure Boston would prefer to sign Varitek for league minimum, but, let’s get real***
Gammons says the player’s association was “strongly advising” agents to turn down arbitration offers, but that in the end it cost players like Varitek a lot of money.
***Why would the MLBPA want players to turn down with players, thereby driving prices down arbitration and flood the market***
Gammons says a lot of players could be looking for jobs in the spring, noting that AJ Burnett’s agents did a great job considering the Yankees wanted Derek Lowe. As a result, Lowe (a Boras client) is now without a job.
***BS. NYY’s second choice was Burnett, not Lowe***
Gammons called Mark Teixeira Scott Boras’ “ultimate client” and that Teixeira is “very well-programmed.”
He notes that there was a lot of “testiness” between Teixeira and Alex Rodriguez in Texas and Gammons wonders how Teixeira will handle the high expectations that come with playing in New York.
***Yeah, so much testiness that the 4 players that called Teixeira to recruit him to NYY was Jeter, Damon, Nady and Alex Rodriguez***
Buddy, my sister is at my place right now looking online to buy wii fit too.
gammons should go home and cry himself to sleep tonight thinking about what a mean, mean man that scott boras is. How dare he lie to teams and media and spread the info he wants owners and baseball people to know while not saying the stuff he doesnt. How dare he spin the truth. I mean arent agent supposed to be nice, honest, friendly folk who just want to be loved by everyone. Is this gammons first exposure to an off season or something or is he in some severe type of denial? hE TRIED to get the yanks into the tex bidding when the sox scouted him for two years – i cant believe my ears – why would an agent do such a thing? Gammons needs to take a chill pill and somehow get back in touch with reality. And apparently AJ’s agent convinced the yanks to sign him over Lowe because the yanks needed input from the agent in order to really know which pitcher they wanted to sign – what a load of $%&%
Just because the sox won two world series since the yanks won their last and won out on the dice k sweepstakes doesnt mean the sox will beat the yanks forever. Eventually the tides will turn. And after all this the moron has the guts to say the yanks may have a slight edge over the yanks because of the health of varitek and lowell. Pleaaaase – the yanks have a better lineup, a better rotation (if we sign a fifth starter for sure) and a better pen. We have a better team because we are better in almost every position in the lineup and almost every spot in the rotation. We also just signed the three best free agents in the market, traded for a possible comeback player of the year winner and upgraded every single position except for right field. We also upgraded every spot in the rotation by far and got back posada and matsui too which certainly is like signing two more bats. Go cry about it Gammon please just dont share your feelings with the public.
Of Course Gammons has 2 say that is TEX went to Boston Gammons would write that TEX has the personality to thrive in a Big City and is a perfect fit
Nick, LMAO
ray (sox fan)
January 7th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
GreenBeret7
January 7th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
“A screwball is thrown in the exact opposite of a curveball. The elbow and wrist turn basically inside out. Try turning your wrist, hand and elbow pointing outwards and turning a doorknob. That’s a screwball.”
Somehow I think it is very appropriate that GB7 knows all about screwballs.
Just harassing you a little bit GB!
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LMAO. OK, wiseguy…just give me a few minutes and I’ll bury you with zingers.
“Charles Bronson or Bronson Pinchot?”
LOL!! Nick, do you do standup for a living?
Wait, the Yanks are trading Nady for Balki Bartokomous?
Gayle, you’re most welcome. Happy to help. If you want more info, just type in baseball screwball. There are also slo-mo videos of the pitch. Beware, it almost turns your stomach to see the way the arm is twisted.
“LMAO. OK, wiseguy…just give me a few minutes and I’ll bury you with zingers.”
Hey GB, I still owed you for the “switchhitter” in the closet comment a while ago!!
I’d pay good money to see Nick do New York.
“Hey GB, I still owed you for the “switchhitter” in the closet comment a while ago!! ”
That actually was me, ray. And I was serious, too. I think you should bat from both sides of the plate. Play for both teams as it were. You clearly have some Yankee love in ya.
“I’d pay good money to see Nick do New York.”
Please, Rebecca, as Pete likes to point out, this is a family blog! But you don’t have to pay good money, that film went straight to video.
GB,
Very nice breakdown on the fiction writing.
You know what’s funny? Folks who write about Arod’s and Tex’s “testiness” don’t even know the real story.
They got along fine in Texas.
You know what happened between them?
At the WBC a couple of years ago, Arod (wrongly) aired out a clubhouse kid over some minor issue. Tex took exception and aired out Arod. It was over in a flash.
That’s it. That’s the “big” testiness between the two.
Arod called and texted Tex after he agreed to terms with the Yankees.
Arod knows when he screws up and goes into diva mode.
It was a minor thing and it will have no carryover in NY.
ray (sox fan)
January 7th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
“LMAO. OK, wiseguy…just give me a few minutes and I’ll bury you with zingers.”
Hey GB, I still owed you for the “switchhitter” in the closet comment a while ago!!
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Sorry about that, Ray. Just too easy to pass up. You’re a great sport. I enjoy having these internet wargames with you.
Heres a question guys: Ive been thinking of. If you could make one move (relalistic) trade/free agency what would it be. The move has to have some long-term look 2 it,
Nick-
Sorta like the Onion movie?
Gammons knows talent levels of players, but his biases have always been there. After his near death experience, I believe he has gone a bit over the top emotionally towards his Rsox!
As a Sox fan he hates Boras. AKA Manny, Tex & more. RSox fans have always been bitter, albeit not as much as Phillie fans but close.
IMO, the RSox made a mistake getting rid of Crisp. He is better than Ellsworth. SS is a black hole for them as well as Catcher even if Varitek comes back. So C, SS & CF along with some real questions in the bullpen. Tampa won the AL because they had a LH Star (? forgot his name) pitcher for relief while an old brokendown Timlin came in for RSox.
Also, note the Yanks & TB both had winning records against RSox & the Yankees are much better as of now for 2009.
Donnie, they aren’t going to answer your, because they don’t know serious stuff
I read the comments from Gammons on the Boston Globe site. To be fair – these comments were transcribed from a radio interview he did on WEEI.
I was thinking maybe –
1) it was taken out of context –
2) he was egged on by the DJ’s –
3) he was joking and made the comment in jest –
so I went to the WEEI site.
I was wrong on suspicion 1, 2 and 3…
Gammons raised his leg, grabbed his foot and stuck it in his mouth. His comments will come back to bite him.
The entire audio interview (23 mins) is here.
http://audio.weei.com/m/audio/21737852/peter_gammons_mlb_analyst.htm
As a commentator for ESPN you can be sure he will cross paths with Tex on some Sunday night game of the week.
I hope Tex hits a game winning homer and Gammons tries to interview him. I would love Tex to say “sorry Peter, can’t talk now, I’m in a hurry, my wife wants to go shopping.”
AAron-
Who is they?
I didn’t classify you as they, they is the few who have no idea what they’re talking about. “THEY” know who they are
SJ44
January 7th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
GB,
Very nice breakdown on the fiction writing.
You know what’s funny? Folks who write about Arod’s and Tex’s “testiness” don’t even know the real story.
They got along fine in Texas.
You know what happened between them?
At the WBC a couple of years ago, Arod (wrongly) aired out a clubhouse kid over some minor issue. Tex took exception and aired out Arod. It was over in a flash.
That’s it. That’s the “big” testiness between the two.
Arod called and texted Tex after he agreed to terms with the Yankees.
Arod knows when he screws up and goes into diva mode.
It was a minor thing and it will have no carryover in NY.
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Thanks, SJ. It’s always been pretty obvious that Rodriguez isn’t exactly coperate smooth. The difference between Jeter and Rodriguez has been upbringing. Jeter was brought up in a closeknit family with parents who were professional people, well educated. Mr. and Mrs. Jeter did a great job.
Rodriguez came from a broken home, and his mother was a hard working lady that did the best she could do and did well. What she couldn’t do was teach social graces.
He’s trying to fit in with everyone, but, real;ly doesn’t fit in with the poor or the wealthy. He can buy things, but, really that’s how he fits in.
His baseball talent is really all he has to get into society, but, no matter how he dresses, or, the fine wines…he’s still the barrio kid from Miami. He’s like the nouveau riche kid in an Ivy League school.
Aaron-
Gotcha!
np, your my “buddy” anyway, haha..
GB,
The way I describe Arod to people that ask me about him is, he’s socially awkward.
He is a nice guy. Just awkward. Best word I can use to describe it.
Donnie Baseball 23
January 7th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Heres a question guys: Ive been thinking of. If you could make one move (relalistic) trade/free agency what would it be. The move has to have some long-term look 2 it,
————————————————————
Nady and Edwar Ramirez to St. Louis for Skip Schumaker and Brendan Ryan (ss/2nd baseman – 26 years old)
Thanks Green even if I dont agree with it at least your thinking long-term and put pieces that may fit for teams. Good to see some1 with some baseball smarts.
SJ44
January 7th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
GB,
The way I describe Arod to people that ask me about him is, he’s socially awkward.
He is a nice guy. Just awkward. Best word I can use to describe it.
————————————————————
LMAO. That’s what I just said. I needed the extra words for typing practice. You can type, so, you only needed two words….socially awkward. Perfect, short description.
New post——–
All because of a Manny and a Mark there’s enough sour grapes right now in Boston between Socks ownership and fans to strongly consider opening a winery selling real lousy wine.
John Henry and Larry Lucchino will never admit that the team’s best of times saw the heart of the lineup with Manny protecting Ortiz and now with Manny gone and a declining Ortiz, teams have lost that one time fear. Pedroia and Youklis are good players but will never have the thunder that saw the production of Manny protecting Ortiz.
Donnie Baseball 23
January 7th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Thanks Green even if I dont agree with it at least your thinking long-term and put pieces that may fit for teams. Good to see some1 with some baseball smarts.
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I was looking at a center fielder with a good glove, good hitter with some speed and a utility infielder that could move to a full time SS spot in 1 or 2 years until Angelini or Muruzak are ready to take over shortstop full time for the next 10-12 years. NYY won’t be able to resign or extend Nady and Ramirez isn’t really needed.
Very good points and all are valid. Your right about Nady and I think thats why he is prolly the one Yanks would wanna move so they can get something for him. CF is a need and I think every1 agrees. A utility IF also and seems like a SS is the hot spot because of Jeter. So we will see what the Yanks do. Also Yanks dont need to trade for a SP since there is enought out there on the market to go sign.
GB7, in an earlier post you mentioned Sandy Koufax as having the smoothest delivery you’ve ever seen.
Although I’ve never seen him in person, the best delivery I ever saw on film/highlights was Tom Seaver.