Pinch hitting: New York Baseball Digest
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- January
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January is traditionally a slow month for baseball news. So for the second year in a row, we will showcase other blogs with a series of pinch hitters.
Next up is Mike Silva from New York Baseball Digest.
NY Baseball Digest started out as a radio show and has morphed into a collection of writings by Mike Silva and his team. For his entry, he went with a friendly “what-if” scenario?
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Earlier this year, my radio co-host Howard Megdal (author of The Baseball Talmud) and I replayed the 1969 Mets vs. the 1978 Yankees using the popular simulation Strat-O-Matic baseball. The Miracle Mets won that series in six games, thanks in large part to some questionable bullpen management by Bob Lemon. Although this series spurred great discussion, we noticed our contemporary fan base was disconnected from some of the names of the past. Instead of embracing Tommie Agee, Reggie Jackson, and Thurman Munson, they yearned for an ‘86 Mets vs. 90s Yankee dynasty matchup. In January, we will oblige by playing the 1986 Mets vs. 1996 Yankees.
The fun part about this matchup is the pre-game chatter. Hearing what the fans think about each team, who will win, and how the team stacks up historically is often more fun than rlaying the series. The ‘96 Yankees, in my opinion, were the weakest of all the recent New York World Series winners. That is why, just like their ‘69 counterparts, the ‘86 Mets should win in six.
It won’t be easy, mind you. Both teams are pretty balanced on offense, with gritty veterans (Paul O’Neill/Wade Boggs/Ray Knight/Mookie Wilson) and emerging stars (Darryl Strawberry/Derek Jeter/Bernie Williams/Tino Martinez). Both teams can score runs, but often short series come down to pitching and the Mets have that in abundance.
The starting pitching comparison is no contest. David Cone/Andy Pettitte/Jimmy Key is no match for an in-prime Dwight Gooden/Ron Darling/Bobby Ojeda. There is not one matchup that favors the Yankees during the series. The Mets could also utilize Sid Fernandez as a fourth starter/long man in the event any member of their trio gets in trouble.
Fans will probably argue that the Yankees’ deep bullpen will overcome the starting pitching deficit. They are wrong. Most games will see Mariano Rivera and company keeping games close, not holding leads. Remember, this Yankees team has John Wetteland closing games, not The Sandman.
You really can’t give any advantage when it comes to the skipper. Both managers were widely criticized, but underappreciated during their tenures. Davey Johnson knew how to connect with his wild veteran squad, while Joe Torre kept The Bronx from burning.
The computer will settle the debate during the week of January 11th, but the fun part begins now. Statistics will eventually rule, but the fun is discussing the intangibles that don’t show up in the box score. In the end, I believe the 19886 Mets will prevail, due to both starting pitching and mystique. The big question I have: What happens when Strawberry plays the field and is up at bat?
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Thanks to Mike for his post. I think the 1996 Yankees will acquit themselves better than he thinks. Coming tomorrow: Mike from High and Tight.
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on Thursday, January 8th, 2009 at 12:11 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Entertaining read!
The 1996 Yankees had a lot of things go right at the right time-Joel Sherman’s work, _Birth of a Dynasty_, is a must read.
That said, if you were to take the 1998 Yankees, they’d crush the 86 Mets. Though I guess that’s neither here nor there.
If Gooden, Strawberry and others had managed to stay out of…erm…trouble, that Mets team would have been a dynasty. Stuff happens, I guess. But the 1986 Mets were something.
One can only be thankful the 86 Mets beat the Red Sox giving them 18 more years of misery. That was the only upside.
Awesome post! I loved playing Strat O Matic as a kid. It would be an interesting simulation of the 86 Mets & 96 Yanks, but I would never concede that the Yanks would lose, never. Can’t wait for the results.
I remember in 94, during the strike season, the Yanks beat the Reds in a WS simulation by the Daily News.
Spending Winter Term from Depauw University in Buenos Aires in Argentina and still checking this blog. Keep up the good work guys.
doesn’t the universe collapse when straw flies out to himself?
didn’t the Mets luck out in the series? would you be writing this if they hadn’t won it all?
I’d like to see the stats get posted from the ‘69 Mets-’78 Yanks and from the ‘86 Mets-’96 Yanks games.
Randy Wolf 09
Computer? COMPUTER?!?
You GOTTA roll the DICE!!! That’s the only way to play Strat-o-Matic!
Computer. Yeesh.
The Sox signed Baldelli and Smoltz. I would have loved Smoltz as our #5 but… Good signings both of them for the Red Sox. We need to get a #5 or we’re going to be parting 200 innings together with 4 minor leaguers. Not a good idea. Wolf, Ollie Perez, Ben Sheets, Jon Garland would all do the job. Trading Nady to the Giants for Sanchez would be a good move IMO as well. Bottom line is I love Andy Pettitte but looking at his career he has always followed the $ and if he wont play for $10MM we should bring someone else in who can fill in the innings we need.
It’s kinda tough to pencil in Smoltz as a Yankee #5 – when you’d be praying he returns on June 1st.
The Smoltz signing may seem like an “if” but it also could be step 1 in the Sox being able to free up Buchholz to be available in a trade for Saltalamacchia from the Rangers.
“The Sox signed Baldelli and Smoltz. I would have loved Smoltz as our #5 but… Good signings both of them for the Red Sox.”
I agree. There were some in the last thread who were acting like, Smoltz specifically, was washed up and had no chance to contribute in 09.
Smoltz is a good signing for a team that already has 5 capable starters. You don’t want to have to absolutely need him… but if he does come back, your rotation gets much better.
“The Smoltz signing may seem like an “if” but it also could be step 1 in the Sox being able to free up Buchholz to be available in a trade for Saltalamacchia from the Rangers.”
Interesting point. I think the Rangers want more than just Buchholz but it’s still worth wondering about.
I really hope the Sox trade Masterson.
What’s interesting is how Buchholz seems to have gone from the second coming to an almost spare part.
Not that the Yankees haven’t experienced this themselves (I’m looking at you, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy), although there are slightly different circumstances.
Did they have the accuscore jinx back then?
A sick dude who might be good if he is able 2 play, and a 40+er who has never pitched in the AL, and has had all sorts of arm problems are not scary moves 2 me. I hope they keep Masterson, i’ve seen him rocked several times by the yanks and others. he seems mentally weak
“What’s interesting is how Buchholz seems to have gone from the second coming to an almost spare part.”
Rebecca, Buchholz was rated higher than Joba last offseason by some respectable publications. I was shocked by that but at least people have smartened up… I hope.
I cant believe I’m about to say this but I was thinking about our #5 situation. Listen, I love Hughes and think he’ll still be a star. Aceves and Coke did a great job for us in their respective roles and who knows what their potential is? However, Pettitte was important to us because of our pitch counts on our young guys. If he’s not coming back and we aren’t going to sign Ollie Perez, Randy Wolf, Ben Sheets or Jon Garland then why not re-sign Sidney Ponson? I thought it was a joke signing last season but he really over-achieved and probably rightfully deserves another shot. If we’re going to have the young guys in the minors ready to go anyway why not give Ponson a chance to come into came and lock down the #5 spot. If he doesn’t make it we can designate him or whatever. I’d think that would be a low-risk high-reward signing if I could think of one. Ponson? He’s certainly not great by any means but he’d fit our short term starter plans and we saw he can hold up in our division. I’ve decided I’m all for it. What do you guys think? Couldn’t hurt right?
Smoltz won’t be ready until May but assuming that Wakefield, Dice-K or Penny can last an entire season is faulty logic, so Smoltz becomes an important arm for them. A Smoltz return in late May or early June would be a great addition, as it is the best depth you can hope to have. The man is still a monster, despite his age and injury issues.
Boston Dave: Baseball Prospectus was among them, IIRC.
I dont need to be reminded of last year, by looking at that toad on the bump @ the new house
It makes no sense to give Ponson a shot. Why do that when you actually have a lot of depth at the minor-league level? I think the Yankees have to consider giving the 5th spot to IPK. What he showed this winter wasn’t a fluke. He can pitch and should be given another opportunity to at least compete for the job (how are we going to just hand it to Phil Hughes when he can’t stay healthy?).
We watched the Seasons 1995 show on MLB Network tonight. Good show. Really made me remember how much fun it was to root for the Yankees before the expectation to win was what it is now. I was at the games at the Stadium for that Seattle series and October baseball in NY had an excitement level and an appreciation from the fans that just felt different than it does now.
A trip down memory lane watching Mattingly play, David Cone pitching, Tino as a Mariner and a young Griffey wreaking havoc. And there was this young kid that many had heard about but weren’t yet really familiar with who wore number 3, pinch ran for Tino and was the first to tackle Griffey when he scored the winning run in extra innings. Aside from the outcome of the game, it really brought back lots of good memories.
I think Sanchez is the best option if he’s gettable
Swisher should stay.
Damon or Nady could go. Damon makes the most sense from an offensive standpoint (Nady is better), but his value is tied to his position at the top of the order. If the Yankees dealt Damon and kept Nady and Swisher with Garnder in CF, the OF would be fine defensively (above average in LF/CF) and better offensively than any combination that includes Damon (unless you do Damon in LF, Nady in RF and Swisher in CF, that’s doable).
I actually feel like that Boston is operating like the Yankees had in the past few years by signing injured and older guys hoping to rediscover their magic on low cost deals. It’s a gamble.
We played that game with Clemens, Dotel, Lieber, etc.
While it seems like it’s a great idea, it didn’t really work here.
Baldelli, Penny and Smoltz all come with red flags and for Boston and anyone to be crowing about how savvy those moves are is just silly.
If all three were healthy and in their prime they are huge acquisitions but as we’ve seen here in the Bronx, it rarely works out that way.
The Smoltz signing kind of feels like the David Cone in Boston signing at the end of the road for him.
Time will tell.
One thing is for certain, Gammons will wax poetic about how Smoltz is healthier and throwing freer than ever and is a dark horse to win the AL Cy Young, that the crack Red Sox medical team discovered that Baldelli’s medical condition is nothing more than a hang nail and that Brad Penny visited Lourdes this off season and is completely healed and throwing 105mph at his local high school park.
All three players are great in the clubhouse, incredible human beings and have already started charities in Boston and donated all of their salary to the Jimmy Fund are will be visiting local firehouses after their press conferences and then will hit local bars and drink with the fans while listening old CD’s by The Smithereens until they all puke.
They’ll follow that up the next morning by painting the green monster and helping old Boston ladies cross the street during their morning pub crawls.
Theo also secretly had a file with a wish list of players he wanted to acquire this off season that only Gammons and Ben Affleck were privy to. The top 3 names? Smoltz, Penny and Baldelli.
The real trick is he got the Yankees to buy the expensive players just so he could get the real steals of the year after the big bad Yankees had spent all their scratch.
Damon is much more important to the offense than X. Without him there is a huge hole @ the top of the lineup. Nady is the expendable guy here, he’s coming off a career season that is unlikely to be repeated in the bronx. Sell high and hope 4 a bounce back by swisher.
gianthinker-I hate to admit it, but i kinda like it. Hopefully you aren’t playing a joke on us to see who the really dumb ones are that will bite
pat- i totally agree with the sentiment. well said, great post. (i went to that series at the kingdome
).
The Mets were still pretty good in ‘88. They probably still don’t know how they lost to the Dodgers. You’re not supposed to let Orel Hershiser beat you like that. David Cone learned the agony of defeat at an early age.
IYankee, you’ve made two horrible points.. there is no way theyre trading damon, absolutely no way, #1 he’s a great lead off hitter, and had a great year last year.. 2 he recruited cc and aj, so why punish a guy who still can play who just helped you recruit to dominant pitchers.. 3 brett gardner sucks.
and kennedy is horrible, he throws 89 FLAT. not a moose 88-90 an Ian Kennedy 88 90.. Come on dude, i hope your joking.. Kennedy is not ready for the majors..
who said Nady is more Valuable than Damon?
what are you on…must be on the same medication as Gammons
he also said that kennedy deserves the 5, haha
Hey what about signing Charlie Haeger? He’s only 25 and has a nasty knuckle ball. He hasn’t had much success over his 5 year career (he came up very early) but has a great knuckle ball that has him compared to a young Wakefield! Haeger throws maybe 80-85% knucklers, mixing in a mid-80s fastball and a curveball every now and then. He needs experience but he could be a long man in the pen or go to AAA to work on his stuff. Young guys like Haeger that bring something special to the table like a knuckle ball are worth minor league deals to see what they become. Most knuclers aren’t good until they get older so his lack of success isn’t a surprise but his ability to be as good as he has so far should be. I’d really love Ca$hman to take a chance on him.
I really really really really hope Ca$hman comes around to signing Ben Sheets. Dude has a 3.72 career ERA. He’s averaged 178.5 inning per year over his 8 year career. He’s 30 years old. I know he’s a bit of an injury risk but he has a horrible market for himself with basically only the Rangers chasing him. Maybe he wouldn’t but I’d think he’d be willing to take a bit less (which with his market he might get the same type offers anyway) to be the #5 (you could argue the #4) on the Yankees STACKED rotation/roster instead of being the ace on a none competitive Rangers squad. I know I’d rather have a chance for a ring more than a little more money. The Yankees should be able to sign him to a short term deal (1, 2, 3 years). He might take a 1 year deal to be a FA again next off-season. I just think first of all that he’s a very good pitcher with ace stuff and he’s being very dis-respected this off-season. We should take advantage of the fact he’s still out there and fill in the extra innings we need with the guy who started the All-Star game for the NL. The Brewers cant get a second 1st RD pick from us. IMO he’d be a monster signing on top of CC, AJ and Teix. I really think we should go for it. The best case we would have had Pettitte come back but we really cant afford to try to fill 2 rotation spots with pitch-count starters. IF we bring Sheets in we’d still have Hughes, Aceves, Coke and others to fill in when someone gets hurt. If we dont bring someone in our first fill in option (Hughes) wont be there because he’ll already be filling in a rotation spot which makes our pitching “depth” weaker. Hughes could use the extra minor league time anyway. BRING BEN SHEETS TO THE YANKEES AND LETS GO GET THIS CHAMPIONSHIP RING!!!
I don’t think any team wants any part of the 98 Yankees.
Red Sox Close To Signing Rocco Baldelli
9:25pm Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe has sources close to the talks that say Baldelli “appears to be inching closer” to signing with the Red Sox. Were the Orioles one of the suitors?
John Smoltz To Sign With Red Sox
10:28pm: Buster Olney agrees Smoltz is on the verge of a deal with the Red Sox. Olney wonders if Boston’s rotation surplus will allow them to trade a young starter. Ken Rosenthal also confirms it, and says the Braves were not willing to guarantee significant dollars.
Beckett, Lester, Buccholz, Wakefield, Penny, Dice K, Bowden, and Tazawa apparently aren’t enough…
This is why the Yanks need Pettitte to return instead of handing over the #5 slot to Hughes.
The Rays will have David Price in the back of their rotation and the Red Sox will have a guy like Smoltz when he’s ready to return.
Both would have better rotations with than the Yanks unless they bring back Pettitte and close the gap.
Rotation depth could be the difference in getting to the postseason or watching it on TV.
Ben Sheets is not the answer. Too much of an injury risk – which is why teams are not pounding on his door to sign him.
His ability on the mound has never been questioned. It’s how often he takes the mound that has always been the issue.
they are not going to hand the #4 (NOT #5 for the millionth time!) spot to hughes, or kennedy, or aceves or coke, those 4 plus a few ST invitees (possibly including ponson) will compete for that spot unless they sign andy or someone big.
the yankees learned last year not to hand out rotation spots to guys who havent yet earned them. this year there will be competition and whoever pitches the best gets the spot. this is a good thing, competition for a big opportunity should bring out the best in these guys. someone will step up and grab the spot. i think by the all-star break phil hughes will become a f/t starter for the yankees and that will settle it, but for now, competition is the way. if that doesnt produce the desired result, we have parts to trade in ST for someone else, but i think we can fill that role in-house.
With all due respect, sheer bloody nonsense. The ‘86 Mets would not have held up against the ‘96 Braves, and we all know how they turned out.
I’d take Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz over Gooden-Darling-Ojeda any day of the week. So it would stand to reason that if the ‘96 Yanks could handle Smoltz and Maddux in Games 5 and 6, Ojeda and Gooden would not have been a problem. Remember, this was a team that nearly lost to a Red Sox team that has not much bullpen.
Speaking of which, most Yankee fans do remember that Rivera set up Wetteland in ‘96. What Silva forgets is the performances turned in by Graheme Lloyd and David Weathers during that post-season. The Yanks bullpen was strong and deep, and the defending world champ Braves had no answer for it. I daresay if the ‘86 Mets had had to deal with that crew instead of the likes of Bob Stanley and Calvin Schiraldi, the parade would have gone down Landsdowne Street rather than the Canyon of Heroes.
Just goes to show what a joke Strat-o-Matic is.
Not exactly, ham.
What difference does it make what number slot he works? Most rotations deviate from that after a couple of turns.
It’s getting more and more likely that the final rotation slot will be given to one of the kids or Pettitte and the FO probably won’t target another veteran starter if they don’t work out a deal with him.
Will it be just handed to Hughes?
Probably not.
But he’s got enough talent to beat out either Kennedy or Aceves in Spring Training.
Anyone can have a good Spring Training and then fall apart or regress considerably once the regular season starts.
stop it! strat-o-matic is fun but anyone who believes that it settles any arguments over who was the best team, they are crazy. play it out 20 times and the rays are going to beat the phils over and over and over. ditto the 69 series, to O’s are going to win again and again. what does it mean? it means that its a game, its for fun, and absolutly nothing beyond that.
Sorry Smoltz is NOT a monster .. He’s 42 with some arm problems . Welcome to the AL East !
the difference is we’re looking to fill 34 starts, not 25. the #4 man isnt going to be skipped over, like joba will be, when there’s an off-day or a rainout. it means the # of innings he pitches per start will be important in determining how the bullpen does. you can go 8-12 days at times w/o throwing your #5 out there, but the #4 goes out every 5th day.
Smoltz doesn’t have to be a monster to be effective.
I don’t think there’s any question that Smoltz can still help the Red Sox win.
By no means is it my intention to rip Hughes – but we can’t ignore his injury history and his inability to be effective in the majors last season.
I’d feel a lot better if he started the season in Scranton and had an injury free year while continuing to work on his game.
That’s not what I meant, ham.
I know the technical difference between a fourth and fifth starter – but both Hughes and Joba will be on innings caps and Pettitte is nearly a lock to throw 200 IP.
What happens if Burnett goes down (given his history, that’s not an unlikely scenario by any means) and the Yanks have a rotation of Sabathia, Wang, Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy?
Now what was a major strength for this club becomes rather shaky two of every five starts.
Pettitte gives them rotation depth that they need if they want to beat the Red Sox or Rays.
Good morning all. Good change-of-page post, Mike. Sounds like a great way to alleviate the boredom of winter! I myself have heard of Strat-O-Matic, but never played it. Totally fun pursuit.
I was out all day yesterday and up late last night putting together a tv stand with my husband. We survived!
Anyway, I just wanted to offer a brief comment on the Yankees defending their spending. While I do not think the Yankees need to “defend” it, in so many words, I do think it is important to make it clear that they are not spending “new money,” which is to say, they are using the recently freed-up money that resulted from the expired contracts of Giambi and the like. It’s important for investors, and it really clears the misconceptions that are out there that they Yankees are spending more than they ever have.
We here at the Lohud Blog are very much aware of this, because we apparently all eat, sleep, drink, dream, breath and obsess on the Yankees 24/7/365. The general public,
the saner part of society, does not.
So, the Red Sox have picked up Baldelli and Smoltz. I’m not suprised at Baldelli, but I am surprised that about Smoltz. Are these done deals? They were not mentioned in my morning paper. I would have assumed Smoltz staying with the Braves. So, I guess these two are off the discussion list for players the Yankees should target, right?
It’s a gamble for the Red Sox, but I’m sure they’re hoping, just as many of you here were, that they’ll rebound.
I don’t think anyone can take Gammons seriously anymore. His statements twist in the wind, depending which side the Sox sit on. If Teixeira had signed with them, all the stories would be glowing. It’s sad, really, and would be of no consequence had he not been a well-respected reporter at one time, and had he not had such a large forum for his reports/opinions.
Smoltz had labrum surgery in June. The chances of him having a big impact next season are as likely as Brett Gardner winning the HR title.
I meant “change of pace” post! Yuck. Hate typos. And that Strat-o-Matic sounds like a totally fun pursuit, not that it definitely was, because I wouldn’t know having already stated that I never played it!
i know everybody wants andy but it seems andy doesnt want the yankees….unless they pay twice what he’s worth.
ive moved on.
Let the FA market tumble a little while more while triple checking Sheets’ MRI’s after the first round of double checking and second opinions, then sign him if there is a reasonable chance he can pitch and we lock up the AL East.
you guys who want sheets have to admit that its a big red flag that so many teams have seen his medical info and he still hasnt recieved an offer. smoltz suffered what many called a career-ending injury last year and he’s already been signed. it does not look good for sheets.
Pettitte aint coming back….he wants 16mil again. and i dont want that fraud
he left in 2003 cause he felt the yankees didnt show him enough love.he came back in 2007 cause he felt the astros didnt show much interest in him.now he wants the yanks to pay him alot more than 10mil after he stunk last year and the yanks stood by him with his drug thing
Pettitte is a phony and we dont need him
Move on all you want, ham.
But if the difference between getting to the postseason with Pettitte or perhaps missing it with Hughes seems to be no-brainer decision.
Market value is different for the Yanks than everyone else because they tend to overpay for just about everybody.
i wanted andy back, but $10M is too much. he already turned that down and his agents claim he turned down a multiyear offer at an aav of $12. so u tell me how much you’re willing to pay andy pettite to fill that #4 spot.
by my count that means andy wants somewhere between 50% and 100% more than hes worth.
$10M is too much for Pettitte but $82M is not too much for Burnett?
How about a 4th outfielder making $7M a year in Swisher?
Is that too much?
When the Yanks want someone, they go out and get him – market value be damned.
Now they want to penny-pinch after they’ve spent $420M+ this offseason.
You watch. Not resigning Pettitte and giving a starting slot to Hughes will come back and bite them on the arse.
Mark my words.
first off, swisher isnt a 4th OF until and unless gardner can prove he is a starter, which hasnt been shown yet.
second, pettitte stunk it up for the entire 2nd half last year. what makes you so sure he’s still got enough to hold down the #4 spot any better than the other options? (and he wants around $15M to do it)
based on what i saw last season, burnett is worth it, and based on what i saw last season pettitte isnt.
*You watch. Not resigning Pettitte and giving a starting slot to Hughes will come back and bite them on the arse.*
except that they havent given the 5th spot to anyone, nor do they plan to.
if Pettitte doesnt sign, which i still completely up in the air at this point, then whoever gets that 5th spot in the rotation is going to earn it in spring training.
do they hope it will be Phil Hughes? you prob find some who say yes, because it would validate their scouting reports on his abilities… anmd maybe some say no, because of a similar opinion to you and I, where you’d like to see him start in Scranton and continue to develop his stuff and prove he can stay healthy first.
“You watch. Not resigning Pettitte and giving a starting slot to Hughes will come back and bite them on the arse.
Mark my words.”
oh please.cry me a river.is Guiseppe Franco Andy Pettitte’s father who back in 2003 said the Yankees didnt appreciate
Andy
andy should call jason giambi. giambi made $22M last year and although he wasnt worth it, he wasnt chopped liver either. he signed for $4.5M and if you saw or heard him yesterday, you’d know that big g has no qualms about it. thats how the dice fell and he took his 80% cut and is happy to be making what he is, and he’s excited and ready to chase glory for the A’s. you have to respect that. (he also spoke glowingly of his time w/ the yankees, good luck big g!)
$10M is a huge pile of cash, especially in this market. andy seems to think he’s worth $15M or so. thats debatable, but what isnt in dispute is that the yankees arent looking for a #1 or 2 type (which that pay would be commensurate with) we are looking to fill the #4 spot. if andy wants to be a #2, go to the nl and do it (i dont doubt he can especially in the nl west) but the yankees have one spot open, its the #4 and $10M is more than they should pay for a guy to fill it.
now iv been sucked into explaining why i’ve moved on…..thats it! im moving on for good!
Swisher is indeed a fourth outfielder right now because he’s not going to play CF everyday.
Cashman and Girardi have both confirmed that they don’t want either Damon or Swisher playing CF everyday. What Swisher did in Chicago is irrelevant.
So that makes Swisher a fourth outfielder on this team making $7M.
Pettitte had a shoulder issue which contributed to his rough second half. He could have missed a start or two but he took one for the team and kept pitching after Wang and Joba went down.
He also has a track record of throwing innings unlike Burnett. He’s thrown 200 IP + in 10 of his 14 seasons whereas Burnett has done it just 3 times in 9 season – twice in contract years.
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what makes you so sure he’s still got enough to hold down the #4 spot any better than the other options?
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Because Pettitte has a long track record of durability. Hughes and the kids do not.
It appears the Yanks may not target another veteran if they can work out a deal with Pettitte.
Good for Baldelli to land a deal with the RS. I’m glad it’s not the NYY. Rocco has a career OPS+ of 102. He’s an average hitter when he’s able to play, and he’s missed 2/3 of his team’s games over the last 3 seasons. Signing players based on their potential to mount enormous comebacks and vastly exceed their career numbers is not a wise strategy.
*So that makes Swisher a fourth outfielder on this team making $7M.*
until either him or Nady is traded, which wouldnt be so far-fetched an idea as it once appeared.
if Pettitte doesnt sign, which i still completely up in the air at this point, then whoever gets that 5th spot in the rotation is going to earn it in spring training.
—————-
Yes, and Spring Training is the perfect fool-proof audition for winning roles.
Cano was outstanding last ST and he hit a two-month funk once the season started. Same with Giambi.
LaTroy Hawkins, Ross Ohlendorf, and Billy Traber all were outstanding last Spring Training but none of them finished the season with the club.
Holding auditions for starting pitching roles is not the most sound plan in this division.
your premise is shot right here:
“Cashman and Girardi have both confirmed that they don’t want either Damon or Swisher playing CF everyday.”
of course they dont want to use swisher in cf every day, they want gardner to hit well enough to hold down the job. that doesnt mean gardner has proved he’s a starter, that just means the want him to be.
also this:”Pettitte had a shoulder issue which contributed to his rough second half.”
well i didnt hear about any surgery to correct the problem so why would i think they would magically dissappear over the offseason. if anything this makes me less likely to pay him 8 figures.
well i didnt hear about any surgery to correct the problem so why would i think they would magically dissappear over the offseason. if anything this makes me less likely to pay him 8 figures.
———–
Because the shoulder issue only required rest – not butchering it with a knife.
Are you as worried about Joba’s shoulder given his bout of tendinitis last year?
His ailment required rest as well.
Not every injury requires a surgeon to go in with a jackhammer.
I hope the Yankees AREN’T relying on players’ competing for starting spots in spring training as a substitute for building sufficient roster depth during this offseason. ST is only going to tell you so much about what the player is going to do over the course of the 162-game season. That’s especially true in regard to starting pitchers. I like Phil Hughes a lot, but a series of successful 2- or 3-inning ST starts isn’t going to convince me he should be the #5 starter. It’s a small sample size and, besides, we all know ST is a poor predictor of regular season performance.
when a pitcher has a serious injury, the first thing they always say is rest, then when they start throwing again they see if the problem is gone and if not they go to surgery, so the fact that rest was prescribed doesnt mean its not a more serious problem.
second i am concerned about joba’s arm, but he looked pretty good when he came back also he’s alot younger then andy, so im concerned about him but not nearly as concearned as i am about pettitte’s ability to come back.
I like Phil Hughes a lot, but a series of successful 2- or 3-inning ST starts isn’t going to convince me he should be the #5 starter. It’s a small sample size and, besides, we all know ST is a poor predictor of regular season performance.
—————
That is exactly my sentiment.
Both Hughes and Kennedy pitched well last ST – but they both fell apart once the team went north.
These youngsters cannot be counted on just yet. Hughes needs to stay healthy for a full season and continue to progress before I give him a rotation slot.
He’s talented enough to outpitch Kennedy and Aceves for 3 weeks and win a job.
That would be a huge mistake.
ok so well play rock, paper, scissors until we get our #4 guy…
GLove is spot on.
These moves the Red Sox are making remind me of the Yankees of a few years ago.
Take injury flyers on a bunch of guys (Smoltz, Baldelli and Penny) and see how it shakes out. They are acting like the Marlins instead of a major market team.
John Smoltz is a HOF pitcher. Great big game pitcher.
However, he is 42 years old, has had 3 elbow and now one shoulder (a labrum no less) surgery and isn’t going to be ready until June.
That’s a major flyer.
He’s never going to be “healthy”. Not at his age and all those surgeries.
He will compete like crazy. But, you only have so many bullets in your arm.
He’s also pitching in the AL East now and not the NL. No breathers in lineups and you have learn an entire league.
When you throw 95, with a deadly slider (like he used to possess), its not a big adjustment. Coming off another surgery at 42? A big adjustment.
Guiseppe,
Its a riskier signing than Burnett because Burnett is not coming off shoulder surgery, is healthy, and is 10 years younger. The two aren’t comparable.
Smoltz’s contract though is another example of why the Yankees offer to Andy was fair. If he hits all of his incentives (which is doubtful), he gets 10 million.
He only has 5.5 million guaranteed. The Yankees guaranteed 10 million to Andy.
As far as “who the 5th starter is going to be”, spring training isn’t even here yet.
Have to let things play out and see what happens.
Still plenty of time to fill that role and the Yankees have several ways in which to do so.
they need a 4th starter who is going to go 180-200 innings.joba won’t be allowed to.if they won’t play swisher in cf they need to trade for one.you might need production from that position if matsui and posada are not a hundred percent.brett and melky can’t do that.did anyone really see how overmatched brett was.i’d trade nady or swisher for rowand.i’d rather nady to go.then package a young pitcher and melky for a starter
http://www.newsday.com/sports/.....?track=rss
Quote:
Pettitte not happy with Yankees right now
BY KEN DAVIDOFF |ken.davidoff@newsday.com
January 8, 2009
Andy Pettitte is extremely unhappy with how his negotiations have gone with the Yankees, and the lefthander might be softening on his opposition to rejoining the Astros.
What once seemed a fait accompli – Pettitte returning to the Yankees for a 12th season in pinstripes – now appears increasingly in jeopardy, although the two sides continue to communicate and they ultimately rank as each other’s first choice.
Pettitte recently rejected the Yankees’ offer of a $10 million salary for 2009, and a team source confirmed a New York Post report that the Yankees, with Mark Teixeira’s deal completed, are inclined to offer Pettitte even less money now. Pettitte made $16 million with the Yankees each of the previous two years and hoped to match that salary this year.
The 36-year-old’s grievances with the Yankees feature, most prominently, these three sentiments, according to people familiar with his thinking:
1. Pettitte believes that the Yankees should display more appreciation for all that he has done for them.
2. While the Yankees are asking that Pettitte take a pay cut, the team clearly is not hurting financially, given its large investments in Teixeira, CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett.
3. Pettitte thinks that his 2008 season wasn’t as bad as the Yankees are making it out to be.
Though Pettitte is popular among teammates, fans and media, emotional breakups play a significant role in his biography. He left the Yankees for Houston after the 2003 season, feeling jilted by the team that drafted him. And he returned to the Yankees after the 2006 campaign, feeling that the Astros didn’t display much interest in bringing him back.
In fact, Pettitte still harbored bad feelings against the Astros heading into this offseason, and he very much wanted to be part of the Yankees as they opened their new stadium.
*******
So Andy wants:
1) The Yankees to pay him for what he did in the past
2) The Yankees to pay him as if he’s on the same planet as CC and AJ
3) The Yankees to believe that he was good last year
Good riddance to a drama queen. This time, I believe his delusions have caused irreparable harm with the fans.
Sounds exactly like what happened when Pettitte left the last time.
As far as the “kids” filling the final spot in the rotation, I file that under “Bubba Crosby will be our CF” in terms of truthfulness.
I’ll believe it when I see it.
JMO but, I think they either sign Pettitte or another veteran pitcher on a one year deal, or swing a deal for a pitcher.
I don’t believe they will “let the kids battle it out” for the final spot in the rotation.
That’s just one of those public quotes to send a message to the guys they are talking to about filling that spot in the rotation.
if this is true:
bye prima donna!
swish4cf. you wana trade Nady for Rowland? adding more salary.and did you see Rowland last year.he stunk san fran up in CF
SJ,
I never compared Burnett to Smoltz. Not sure why you’re explanation was targeted at me.
What I did say is that the Yanks really need to resign Pettitte. I don’t really care how much they’re offering him.
But it doesn’t seem wise to squawk over couple of million when they could go for the jugular and assemble a better rotation than the Rays and Red Sox.
Besides, Pettitte may be a fourth or fifth starter on the Yanks – but he’d be a third starter on a lot of teams and a fourth starter on a select few.
How many teams could pencil in about 14-15 wins and 200 IP from your fourth or fifth starter?
Not many, I can tell you that.
i agree with sj 100%, they will be bringing in an arm. but for now, we have what we have. its like the swisher/nady/gardner thing, its what we have for now, so you plan accordingly. but one of them will be gone and will likely bring back another arm, if not for the open spot, then to pump up the depth chart.
If that’s what Andy truly believes, then he must’ve been taking something else besides HGH.
When emotions get into negotiations, that’s when sides harden and deals don’t get done.
See: John Henry and Larry Luchhino vs. Scott Boras and Mr. and Mrs. Teixeira for example.
Both sides can play the “emotion” card.
I don’t think the Yankees were too happy to give 16 million bucks to a guy that didn’t tell them his HGH use was about to go public and didn’t work out for most of the off-season due to the Clemens stuff. That led to his shoulder tiring out down the stretch. By Pettitte’s own admission, mind you.
When you say you only want to play for one team, and money isn’t the issue, which Pettitte has said publicly and privately to the Yankees, you then can’t backtrack, and troll for more money. Its just another whack to his reputation.
Then again, that doesn’t seem to bother him right now. He just wants more money.
If that’s the case, he can hope the Astros will want to overpay for his services. That will be a far cry from Yankee Stadium this season.
If that happens, I hope he isn’t foolish enough to say, “this isn’t about money” at his Astros PC.
If he does, any shred of his reputation remaining will be gone.
Andy on the same medication as gammons.dont know why andy just doesnt take that 3yr / 36 mil offer
there are lots of 1 year options out there,but im backing hughes.all he had last year was a busted rib
by all reports he sorted a few mechanics at the AFL, was back up around 95mph and added a cutter,he looked solid when he did come back last season too
*Yes, and Spring Training is the perfect fool-proof audition for winning roles.*
did anyone say it was a fool-proof plan? nope.
*LaTroy Hawkins, Ross Ohlendorf, and Billy Traber all were outstanding last Spring Training but none of them finished the season with the club.*
you say this as if its a bad thing that the club improved as the year went on.
*Holding auditions for starting pitching roles is not the most sound plan in this division.*
its also not the worst plan, either.
Guiseppe,
This is where I disagree. The Yankees don’t “need” to sign Andy Pettitte. They need to fill that spot in the rotation with the specs we believe Andy Pettitte brings to the table.
Innings, veteran presence, talent, etc.
Would I like to see Andy come back? Yes.
For more than 10 million? No.
You can’t overpay the guy just to bring him back and use the “look at what he has done in the past” argument or the “look at what they are paying everybody else”, argument.
Not saying you are using those arguments. Just using it as an example.
They are already offering him over 20% more guaranteed money than the next comparable contract signed (Randy Johnson) this winter.
That’s how the compensation system works in the game. He’s no longer a 16 million dollar pitcher. Truth be told, he may no longer be a 10 million dollar pitcher.
They can’t just overpay the guy because they “need” him.
They need to fill that slot. They just aren’t going to overpay Andy to fill it.
Once emotions get into this thing, which seems to be the case, both sides harden.
Andy once said that the biggest career mistake he made was leaving the Yankees over money. It looks like he’s ready to make the same mistake again.
Personally, I feel bad for him. He could go out on a very positive career note returning to NY for his final season.
Instead, over money, he’s going to allow his reputation to take another major hit and probably torch himself with the fans in NY.
Doesn’t really make sense to me. Then again, it doesn’t have to. Its his life.
Maybe Andy would come back to the Yankees for the $10M and a lifetime achievement award.
its also not the worst plan, either.
—————–
Let me rephrase that. It’s not the wisest plan to have the kids battle it out in ST.
Those performances often don’t translate to the regular season.
SJ,
My fear is that they won’t target another durable veteran starter for the final rotation slot.
And I think that would be an enormous mistake, especially in this division.
I certainly prefer Pettitte over other options – but really what I want most is a guy who can take the ball every five days and do a good job.
Good-Bey Andy “drama queen” Pettitte.
Mike Mussina ‘allowed’ the Yankees to decline his 17 million 2007 option and resigned with them for 2 years 23 million. Why is it okay for him to have his salary go down from 17 to 11?
So we should pay you on what you did in the past? Your previous awful season, and it was an awful season. (when we needed you to come up big the second half of the season, you dug us a bigger hole). You were one of the reasons we didn’t make the playoffs!!
You said all season long, it isn’t about money, you want to pitch in the new stadium. If it wasn’t about money why aren’t you taking the Yankees fair offer? Oh thats right cause it is about money. It isn’t enough.
You know what, I am made at myself for caring about you, for being glad you returned, for sitting out in freezing weather to see your return to the Yankees.
Andy if you think you are making yourself look good, and making the fans feel sorry for you, you are sorely mistaken.
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
There’s no reason that the yanks can’t give one of their prospects a shot at #5 and, if that’s not working, rent a #5 mid-season. I feel especially strongly that Hughes will not profit by more work at AAA other than logging alot of innings. His stuff is so much better than the AAA hitters that he can just do it on stuff. What he needs is to pitch to ML hitters who can hit his stuff and learn how to beat them by pitching smart.
On the Strat issue, the ‘96 Yanks will probably lose to the ‘86 Mets because a big part of that Yanks team was its intangibles. Somehow, that team was never out of any game and gutty performances seemed to come through every day. How does Strat recreate Paul O’Neill’s ability to hit a statement rope to break up a masterful performance by the other side and turn a game around (7 perfect innings by Radke, Maddux in WS game 6 as just two examples)? The regular season stats also have Lloyd and Weathers getting creamed, when they were lights out post-season.
I seem to remember when Andy left after 2003 he took less money from the Astros then what the Yankees had offered and said that he wanted to be somewhere where he felt “wanted” … or something like that.
I could definitely see him going back to Houston and actually settling on a 1 year deal that is less than 10 million per year … and he will say at his press conference that he is thrilled to be somewhere where he is wanted.
It is all B.S. … since it is totally about money at this point with Andy.
If he wants to play the loyaly card, then there is just as much loyalty he owes the Yankees for pitching lousy down the stretch last year when the team needed him after embarrassing himself and the Yankees with the HGH fiasco … all the “loyalty” that he thinks is owed in this situation is not just the Yankees showing him … it goes both ways.
At this point, I say let him go. If the Yankees are, indeed, preparing to trade Nady or Swisher my guess is it will be for a back end starter who is currently under contract – like Harang or Arroyo from the Reds
suave
san fran sucked 2.he is an good ballplayer.i like nady more buts he’s a free agent 2010 and a boras client.if not rowand then winn.
Houston doesnt want him back….like i said andy should just take the 3/36mil offer and run
“san fran sucked 2.he is an good ballplayer.i like nady more buts he’s a free agent 2010 and a boras client.if not rowand then winn.”
what are you saying?.its alrite for rowland to suck cause his team sucked
Pettitte has painted himself into a corner based on what he’s said about wanting to return and pitch in the new Stadium and now holding out for more money.
Good luck to him and the Hendricks brothers in finding a suitor for at least $10M.
It certainly won’t be in Houston where the owner is going on the cheap and many fans still are recovering from hurricane damage of last summer.
If Andy is such a stickler for conditioning, he’d better be working out right now. Spring training is fast approaching.
Guiseppe,
They already are targeting other people.
Why do you think they are fielding offers for Nady and Swisher?
One thing should be clear from this off-season.
Cash and the Yankees aren’t leaving anything to chance.
Look at how he went after CC and Teixeira. His attention to detail, even knowing Teixeira’s musical preferences, should tell you they aren’t just sitting back and doing nothing to fill the rotation slot.
You can’t get caught up in what’s said publicly. There is too much evidence the past few years to show that what’s said publicly, and what’s being done privately, are two different things.
I think after Cash met Andy in Houston, and a deal wasn’t struck, the Yankees have moved on in a sense. Will they still stay engaged with the Hendricks Brothers and try to do a deal? Yes. However, since that meeting, I think they are also actively looking at other alternatives.
Prior to that Houston meeting, I believe they were willing to wait out Andy.
Now? I believe whatever happens first, either Andy decides to agree to terms, or they find another arm, will happen.
I don’t believe the Yankees are waiting around on Andy any longer.
Frankly- You know I wonder if he is working out myself, or if he is just sitting around waiting for someone to make a higher offer.
Also what is the word on all the law suits going back and forth between Roger and the Brian. How would that come into play if Pettitte does end up returning to the Yankees?
SJ44- At this point they can’t afford to, Spring Training is rapidly approaching.
Also do you know whether or not Andy is keeping himself in shape?
Pettittes got shoulders issues.so he probaly needs HGH to recover quicker in time for 09
Now the evil Red Sox have taken Smoltz away from the Braves? Someone needs to get Boston under control.
For anyone worried the yankees pitching staff may be more injury prone than the sox (Beckett has missed time the last 3 seasons, dice -k had a tired arm in may last year, wakefield has back problems, penny missed much of last year, smoltz too, and we know lester’s story).
*Those performances often don’t translate to the regular season.*
and sometimes they do.
and if it doesnt, they have depth to try someone else out.
and who knows… maybe they are targeting another arm in a Nady or Swisher deal to compete for that 5th slot, too.
I’m sure he is keeping himself in shape. He has told everybody around the Yankees he is pitching this year.
So, I imagine he’s working out at his usual off-season pace right now.
His problem isn’t a lack of work ethic. Its ego right now.
If he can’t get over it, its better he doesn’t come back.
Who needs that drama this season?
The great thing about being a FA is, if you think you can do better $$$-wise, you go for it.
A lot of people very quite confident on here Bobby Abreu was going to snag a 3 year, 45-50 million dollar contract in free agency.
How’s that working out?
I think what Andy, and his agents, are finding out is, there are two types of baseball economies. The Yankees and everybody else.
The Yankees baseball economy says Andy Pettitte is worth 10 million dollars.
Everybody elses baseball economy says he’s worth less.
Doesn’t matter what we think. That’s the essence of the dispute.
Until he can find a team willing to pay him more, there is no reason for the Yankees to bid against themselves.
“2. While the Yankees are asking that Pettitte take a pay cut, the team clearly is not hurting financially, given its large investments in Teixeira, CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett.
3. Pettitte thinks that his 2008 season wasn’t as bad as the Yankees are making it out to be.”
I hate to be so blunt, but Pettitte’s 2008 season was one of the reasons the Yankees had to shell out the money for CC and AJ. He’s an aging veteran in decline and they needed to restock the rotation. Now, he’s trying to use the fact that they did this to leverage an even larger payday for himself. The guy clearly doesn’t get it.
*Until he can find a team willing to pay him more, there is no reason for the Yankees to bid against themselves.*
on this note, though, i think this is where some people take issue (not me, but from what i can tell listening to others).
if they can bid against themselves to bring back ARod last offseason, and bid against themselves to snag Sabathia by tens of millions, then what’s another million or two just to bury the hatchet, and put an end to this whole thing, rather than let Andy hang out to dry in the media.
Just to be clear, I still want the guy, and I don’t so much care what the Yankees decide to pay him. But AP is being pigheaeded and unrealistic if he thinks the Yankees somehow owe it to him to him pay anything close to $16 million at this point.
turntwo- While I think it was idiotic for the Yankees to bid against themselves in all the cases, one can argue that they are all entering their prime or in their prime. Andy on the other hand, is near the end.
Some reports have said that Cashman has open dialogue with Cincinnati.
Around Jan. 20, teams and players exchange salary arbitration figures. If Cashman were to decide on sending the arbitation eligible Nady to Cincy for Aaron Harang to replace Pettite then Harang is due $11M in 2009 and $12.5 in 2010.
This leaves CF and RF with Melky, Gardner, and Swisher.
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com....._id=421685
John Smoltz??? Paaleese!!!!
*Andy on the other hand, is near the end.*
oh, i dont disagree, like i said. just echoing a sentiment ive heard from other people.
TurnTwo,
Here’s the difference between Pettitte’s situation and Arod and CC.
Arod and CC are cornerstone players for the next 8 years in NY. They are better players than Andy Pettitte, and the Yankees have a longer commitment with them for business, as well as playing reasons.
Those are marquee guys, and you can add Tex to that mix now, that will sell seats in the new Stadium.
That’s not Andy Pettitte’s role with this team.
I know fans will say, “what’s another 2-3 million”? Problem is, if you need to go get somebody during the season (because of an injury, ineffectiveness, etc), that 2-3 million may be the reason why you can’t do it.
We have seen that bite the Yankees in the past.
They are also keen on keeping their payroll lower this year than last year. By a more significant number than some fans, and Andy for that matter, would like.
Even with all their spending this off-season, the payroll is still lower in 2009 than it was in 2008. I don’t see them changing that model for Andy Pettitte. Nor should they, IMO.
Andy is 37 years old, coming off an horrible (whether he wants to believe it or not) second half, and has said he only wants to play one more season.
Those terms have a certain price attached to it and it isn’t higher than the Yankees were willing to go.
Here’s the thing. They aren’t lowballing him. Their offer is still higher than any other offer he has. Yet, its not good enough.
Sometimes, you just have to move on. I have a feeling that if the Yankees and Andy don’t agree to terms by this weekend, it will be time for both sides to move on.
TurnTwo- the Yanks might have bid against themselves for ARod and Sabathia, but they wanted those players. If the Yankees really wanted Pettitte they would offer him more money. I think that they are playing hardball with him because they are still mad about the HGH issue. Also right now the Yanks probably have enough to trade for a #5 starter.
On the spring training “audition” thing, I have no problem using ST performance to decide a roster spot where the choice between two (or more) players is otherwise basically a coin toss. But it’s no substitute for actually acquiring a player worthy of the roster spot. Example: You have three AAAA pitchers battle it out for the 5th spot in the rotation. One of them has a good spring and wins the job. He’s STILL a AAAA pitcher. Nothing about the “audition” process changed that. A good ST is no evidence of genuine improvement, because any AAAA pitcher almost by definition will have occasional stretches of ML effectiveness.
“Aaron Harang to replace Pettite then Harang is due $11M in 2009 and $12.5 in 2010.”
That scratches me where i itch. I’d say that is a great match money and trade wise should they not be able to reach an agreement with Andy.
I think some of the Yankee fans on this board are far more drama queens than Andy Pettitte.
Pettitte will ruin his reputation is he goes to aother team? Nonsense.
Pettitte one of the main reasons that the Yankees missed the playoffs last year? More nonsense.
The truth is if Smoltz can make 10 million if he reaches incentives for pitching half a season then yes Pettitte is worth more than 10 mil for pitching a full season.
Everyone keeps saying the payroll is still lower than it was last year. Yeah okay its lower but by maybe 5 million. If you factor in the money that Nady, Bruney and Melky will get in arbitration as well as raises to guys making the minimum the payroll comes in at around $204 million. Last year on opening day the payroll was $209 million. This is before factoring in a possible Pettitte signing or any improvements to the bench.
When its all said and done, I highly doubt the payroll will be less than it was last year.
Andy Pettitte is extremely unhappy with how his negotiations have gone with the Yankees, and the lefthander might be softening on his opposition to rejoining the Astros.
What once seemed a fait accompli – Pettitte returning to the Yankees for a 12th season in pinstripes – now appears increasingly in jeopardy, although the two sides continue to communicate and they ultimately rank as each other’s first choice.
Pettitte recently rejected the Yankees’ offer of a $10 million salary for 2009, and a team source confirmed a New York Post report that the Yankees, with Mark Teixeira’s deal completed, are inclined to offer Pettitte even less money now. Pettitte made $16 million with the Yankees each of the previous two years and hoped to match that salary this year.
The 36-year-old’s grievances with the Yankees feature, most prominently, these three sentiments, according to people familiar with his thinking:
1. Pettitte believes that the Yankees should display more appreciation for all that he has done for them.
2. While the Yankees are asking that Pettitte take a pay cut, the team clearly is not hurting financially, given its large investments in Teixeira, CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett.
3. Pettitte thinks that his 2008 season wasn’t as bad as the Yankees are making it out to be.
—————————————————
Is this a joke? Enough. Bye Andy.
I’d love a Nady for Harang trade…
It’s simple economics. Supply and demand. As SJ has mentioned, the Yanks offered $10M. How many other teams are looking for a #3 or #4 starter? Apparently not many. I also think since most are expecting Andy to come back for just one year, other teams do not necessarily think that Andy is the impact player they need for ONE year. Simply put, he is between a rock and a hard place currently. I agree with the fact that his credibility will be contended if he keeps going the route he is currently on. Attitude is very important in baseball. Just look at Eric Bedard. Noone wants anything to do with him.
Why would the Yanks take on Harang’s 40 mil contract for the next 3 years? He was brutal in 2008, injured, his innings dropped by 50 from 2007. No thanks.
Good morning all and welcome to my daily Manny blog.
This one has some interesting finacial implications.
I won’t knee jerk react to the Red Sox signings though signing Manny would certainly be the trump card of all trump cards.
Gammons heart would not be able to take that one.
From a financial perspective, Boras says that Manny will pay for himself. When I hear that I always think, well we are alreay drawing 4 nillion fans so Manny won’t impact our ticket sales enough to pay for himself.
Well last night I was told by a reliable source that the Yankees have had over 25 million of suite and season ticket inventory returned due to the economic climate as many corporations have backed out of their 2 million per year suites.
This makes Manny attractive financially as Boras may indeed be right as he could help the Yankees resell some of the lost ticket sales.
As far as on the field goes it is becoming more and more obvious that we will move either Nady or Swisher. It is also pretty obvious that Damon or Swisher won’t be playing CF.
Yes we need a 4th starter but we also need a better 5 hole hitter to guarantee more runs scored IMO. After 4 we are very suspect as leiter said on the hot stove.
We need to find a way to move Matsui opening up a spot for Manny as Matsui is 1 and done and we are building this thing for at least a 3 yr run.
We have long term plans in place with Tex and Arod along with our young pitching and hitting prospects.
This team as is will turn over again next year with Nady,Matsui,Damon all coming off the books and no guarantee that Holiday will join us.
The time to strike is while the iron is hot and that is now. Manny wants to be a Yankee and belongs in the AL.
This will give us an awesome line up for the next 2-3 yrs while we continue to grow the farm. Our pitching is in place for a long run and so is our bull pen.
Cash is stealth on this and he will get the “Manny really wants to be a Yankee” call from Boras soon. What will he do with that is critical to the Yankees short term future.
He can have a Nady and Matsui trade lined up so he can negotiate a deal with Manny and take care of all family business in one creative swoop.
Tell me whyy this doesn’t make sense and why you wouldn’t want his bat behind Arod. Would you rather see the Mets jump in late and add him to Reyes,Beltran,Delgado,Wright?
And please don’t give me the attitude issue. If he came to the Bronx he would hustle and want to win in front of his home town fans that would appreciate him just like the Dodger fans did. Why do they want him back so bad? Because he is a difference maker.
Suck up the payroll for 1 season and we will win #27 and #28 in the next 3 yrs.
Fran,
I disagree. I think the Yankees do want Andy Pettitte. But I also think they have thought about and come to terms with the prospect of doing without him.
I am one of those people who think the Yankees should up the offer by $2 million, BUT if Pettitte is holding out for more than that, well, that’s very unrealistic. Sentiment only goes so far. And my rationale for upping the offer does have something to do with having sweetened the pot for CC. I believe AJ and Teixeira might be somewhere else if not for the exact money they got. Not sure about Sabathia because of how that unfolded, but it could be the same.
Anyway, if Andy Pettitte told the Yankees that money was no object, then the Yankees operated their off-season based on a salary model that didn’t “worry” about Pettitte. I have a feeling that when Pettitte saw the rumored offers the Yankees were willing to make specifically Derek Lowe, that may have made him a little, well, huffy.
I’m willing to accept that the Yankees are already making him a generous offer. I don’t pretend to know the basis for pricing #4 pitchers. I was going to say that the Yankees are expecting him to be what he was for the last 2 season, but on reflection, that’s not exactly true. The last 2 years, Pettitte was expected to be the #2 guy. But I will say that they do expect to him to pitch as many innings, and they hope for quality innings. If he does what he’s been capable of doing, then he is worth more than $10 million to the Yankees. But because his arm health is now suspect, and because he is 37, I also understand why he’s no longer a $13-$16 million pitcher.
How could you possibly want a Aaron Harang. Why do you wanna trade Nady for him?? Incase you guys have forgotten left on the Market is Lowe,Perez,Sheets,Garland, and yes even Andy. Id take any one of them over Harang and guess what we wouldnt have to trade a player. I say we go into Spring training with this plus another starter. Its a long season and you never know if someone gets hurt on the Yanks or on another team and they would have to give a lot more than would now to get Nady or Swisher or even Matsui.
I could only see the YANKS trading away of them right now for 2 reasons. 1) It would have to be an offer that blows them away, like for instance getting Sanchez and Rowand from the Giants for Nady and a prospect(s).
2) To free up a spot to sign Manny.
Harange is owed 11 mil in ‘09, 12,5 mil in ‘10, 12.75 mil in ‘11, plus a 2 mil buyout. Not much of a bargin.
1. Pettitte believes that the Yankees should display more appreciation for all that he has done for them.
Does he mean 2003 when he left to go to Houston because he felt underappreciated? Of in 2007 when he didnt tell the yankees about the HGH Investigation? How bout taking $16M two straight seasons from the Yankees when he was being grossly overpaid? Or last year when they gave him an open invitation to come back at $16M whenever he decided he was ready?
G Loves’ 1:43AM post has my vote as one of top 10 so far in ‘09. He ought to consider writing for the Respect Jeter’s Gangster blog. I was literally laughing out loud reading it.
GB – 7 :
Aaron Harang rhp
4 years/$36.5M (2007-10), plus 2011 club option
4 years/$36.5M (2007-10), plus 2011 club option
re-signed by Cincinnati 2/07 (avoided arbitration, $5.5M-$4.25M)
07:$4.25M, 08:$6.75M, 09:$11M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$12.75M ($2M buyout)
2011 option increases to $13M with 210 IP in 2010
if traded, 2011 option becomes mutual option at $14M ($2.5M buyout)
1 year/$2.35M (2006)
re-signed by Cincinnati 1/06 (avoided arbitration)
1 year/$0.44M (2005)
1 year/$0.36M (2004)
agents: Levinson brothers
ML service: 5.061
Ray,
If both guys are healthy, its not even close….John Smoltz is a better pitcher than Andy Pettitte.
The issue is money. Smoltz’s deal, if he hits all of his incentives (which is unlikely) is the same as the guaranteed money Pettitte has on the table from the Yankees right now.
In fact, the Smoltz deal further bolsters the Yankees case that their offer to Andy is fair.
Its within Andy’s rights to turn it down and seek greener pastures.
His agents have shopped him all winter and haven’t gotten a better offer. Perhaps they will now. Unlikely, IMO, given the market. But, you never know.
As far as his reputation, it will take a hit if he leaves the Yankees over money. Especially after what he said last year.
At some point, folks grow tired of guys saying one thing and doing another. Especially after his HGH trevails of last year.
I don’t think this is “drama” at all. Its just business.
Unfortunately for Andy, given his public and private comments to the Yankees, reversing field now is just another hit to his rep. Clearly, he doesn’t care about that and that’s ok.
I just don’t want to hear its, “not about the money” at the PC of his new team. At least be honest, as CC, AJ and Tex were at their PC’s that it is about the money.
If he does that, I wish him well at his new stop.
harang still isn’t a 11-12 mil a year pitcher, who’s innings fell off by 50 and his ERA jumped by run. Right now, he couldn’t get 6 mil a year, not the least of which, he blocks out the best of the minor league talent for the next 2-3 years. No thanks.
Aaron Harang has a history of forearm and elbow injuries.
He missed a chunk of time last year with a “forearm strain” and in 2004 he had a strained elbow ligament. He could be a “Tommy John” risk, or his injury history could be apropos of nothing .
Yankees need to find a pitcher, a veteran pitcher, they can have for one year. If not pettitte, get a byrd or something like that.
Doreen,
I understand your point, but I still think that the Yankees have drawn a line in the sand. That being said I would not be surprised if Andy does wind up back with the Yanks.
Many will recall Andy Pettitte’s press conference under the courtesy tent at Steinbrenner Field in Tampa last February when he was so contrite and thankful for the support of his teammates and organization.
Sitting right there next to him was the Captain, Jorge, Mo, and Cashman. What must they be thinking now ?
What a difference a year makes.
His wife spoke last year of how happy the family was to be spending the summer at their home in Westchester County.
Yeah, sure.
Anyone know how much Jeter thinks he will be making through the end of his career?
35 homers in 184 innings is ugly. 19 at home and 16 on the road .
Give Sheets a 2 year deal with some incentives that maybe could make the deal 3 years 30 mil. Perez would be a great sign also. I agree with some who said WOLF also. Now if you get some of these guys 2+ years and Everyone works out and stays healthy I think the Yanks would have to look at Joba in the pen. Options they may have to look at and to me Id rather have that problem than having someone here on a year deal thats not as valuable then someone that would occupy a two plus deal.
The only reason I WOULDN’T want Harang is the three years, which is a fairly long commitment given the CC and AJ contracts. Otherwise, I’d love to have him. (a) He’s only 30. (b) From 2005-07, he had ERA+’s of 112, 124, and 125, with well over 200 IP each of those years. (c) He didn’t have a bad YEAR in 2008 so much as a terrible run of 10 starts sandwiched around a DL stint (sore forearm). His season started out well and finished great (last 8 starts: 2.83 ERA). Dusty Baker had used him for 4 innings in extra-inning relief on 2 days rest, followed immediately by a regular start on 3 days rest, and this evidently screwed him up for the next two months.
Any team should be thrilled to have Aaron Harang as their 4th or 5th starter.
BD sorry to disagree with you, If your a Yankees fan you couldnt be happy if they traded NADY for Harang, while there are better players on the market still then him. Plus you would traded all those young players last year for Marte and Harang?? If Harang was a free agent I could see your point to take a flyer out on him. Nady is a “baseball” player and I think he is very capable of helping us out this year along with Swisher. I still say sign one of the free-agents and go with the team we have into spring.
Really, Petitte? Really?
You had a poor season, a terrible second half, and an admitted HGH user. $10 million isn’t enough? Based on your age, your recent history, and a solid rotation #1-#3, you should be lucky to get $5 million and in my opinion, that’s way too much. I’d rather have signed Penny.
History, smishtory. You left the Yanks once for more dollars, give me a break.
SJ
You have pointed out, again,, the essential problem that a lot of people are having with A. Pettitte. His two faced hypocrisy.
It is hard to take.
We dont want another guy with a committment. Sheets looks good just because how good he can be. No more than 2 years though. While we know we have the kids, we dont want to assume they will be ready. Hughes is the only one i feel is a guarantee to be starting sooner than later.
BD
January 8th, 2009 at 10:21 am
The only reason I WOULDN’T want Harang is the three years, which is a fairly long commitment given the CC and AJ contracts. Otherwise, I’d love to have him. (a) He’s only 30. (b) From 2005-07, he had ERA+’s of 112, 124, and 125, with well over 200 IP each of those years. (c) He didn’t have a bad YEAR in 2008 so much as a terrible run of 10 starts sandwiched around a DL stint (sore forearm). His season started out well and finished great (last 8 starts: 2.83 ERA). Dusty Baker had used him for 4 innings in extra-inning relief on 2 days rest, followed immediately by a regular start on 3 days rest, and this evidently screwed him up for the next two months.
Any team should be thrilled to have Aaron Harang as their 4th or 5th starter.
————————————————————
He made 29 starts and 12 were 4 earned runs or more. Sorry, but, that’s not good. Only a string of 10 bad starts? That’s a third of the season. Innings dropped by 50, strikeouts dropped by 65-70, ERA jumped by more than a run. What part wasn’t bad? You’d better get a dictionary and learn the meaning of bad.
Mark Grudzielanek is still on the market. How bout him as infield back up?
Adam
January 8th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Really, Petitte? Really?
You had a poor season, a terrible second half, and an admitted HGH user. $10 million isn’t enough? Based on your age, your recent history, and a solid rotation #1-#3, you should be lucky to get $5 million and in my opinion, that’s way too much. I’d rather have signed Penny.
History, smishtory. You left the Yanks once for more dollars, give me a break.
————————————————————
More BS. He took less to go to Houston.
I wouldn’t be too worried about Smoltz and Baldelli, they are not major impacts on the team. Baldelli still has some kind of disease that he can’t play everyday and Smoltz is old and coming off major arm surgery. If he gives them anything after May they will be happy. The Sox still need a catcher and is Beckett healthy? Wake is only getting older,will Lester be as good or was that his peak? Dice K really isn’t that good. This is the first full yr without Manny and is Papi healthy or is he just done without Manny?
Mike Silva is to the METS, what Peter Gammons is to the RED SUX.
I don’t see Andy going back to HOU. I would think the fans wouldn’t be too happy with him after he left to come back to NYY.
It would be interesting to know how much it would take for Andy to come back and if the Yankees were willing to pony up the extra $$$. If Andy is still looking for $16m, he is suffering from delusions. I think that $12mil is sufficient. I don’t know if the Yankees have offered that much, but if they did, why wouldn’t Andy take it?
I love the posts where people are so willing to take these unknown (and injured) commodities like Sheets and Harang as opposed to a very known commodity like Pettitte. Loyalty is most certainly fleeting around here.
When healthy Aaron Harang is a very very good pitcher who throws a lot of innings.
Looking at Harang’s contract, I’d pass. Too many years. Too many question marks.
Vrsce,
That’s the basic problem with Andy and the Yankees right now. Doreen also touched on something important.
The Yankees went into the off-season with a business model in place partly because of conversations they had with Pettitte during the season.
These decisions weren’t made in a vaccuum.
Its also not a news flash, no matter what spin is put out by the Hendricks Brothers, re: Andy’s paycut. Both sides knew it was coming.
I completely understand Andy’s desire for more money. Basically because, regardless of his “aw shucks” nature, clearly the money is important to him. Its human nature for ballplayers to want more money.
Its why he left for Houston before and why he’s unwilling to come to terms with the Yankees now.
I get that. I’d just be more comfortable if he just admits it and not get into the “they owe me for the past” argument.
No they don’t. That went out the window when he kept his mouth shut about what was coming up re: his HGH use, signed a 16 million dollar deal, and, truth be told, didn’t pitch well enough to justify that deal.
Once he did that, the “owing” by the Yankees went out the window. In fact, its Andy that “owes” the Yankees for taking the PR hit and not making life miserable for signing a deal under false pretenses.
This all gets down to one simple premise. Andy Pettitte believes he’s worth more than 10 million per season.
Only way that’s true is if his agents mines an offer exceeding that number. If they do, he’s got leverage. If they don’t, he’s got none.
If I were the Yankees, I would give this my best efforts through Sunday. If no deal could be reached by that time, I’d move on.
Only thing worse than dragging this out longer is signing a guy who feels slighted by the terms of the deal. That’s when you get into drama and this team doesn’t need it.
If he’s not a Yankee by Monday, go find a guy who wants to be here.
With the team that’s being assembled, that may not be too tough a task.
Green Beret: Harang (a prospective 4th or 5th starter) is arguably a better pitcher than CMW (our incumbent #2). Here are there ERA+’s and IP since 2005:
Wang:
2005 105 ERA+, 116 IP
2006 124, 218 IP
2007 121, 199 IP
2008 109, 99 IP
Harang:
2005 112 ERA+, 211 IP
2006 124, 234 IP
2007 125, 231 IP
2008 94, 184
Yes, Harang pitched 47 fewer innings than in ‘07. That’s what happens when you miss 5-6 starts due to injury. (BTW, Wang pitched 100 fewer innings.)
new thread … c’mon, wake up!
I reiterate all my comments on Andy from yesterday and the day before. The people claiming Andy would be “overpaid” at $10MM or that the Yanks would be “generous” to pay Andy $10MM are flat out wrong.
Looking at the contracts that have been signed, Andy seems to be worth $10MM or more.
Johnson got $8MM. He’s 46 and a real risk not to reach 200 innings. His numbers were put up in a weaker league.
Dempster got $12MM, and an escalating multi-year contract. Granted he had a much better year than Andy in 2008, but if you look at his performance over the last three years, I don’t know that I would not rather have Andy.
If Smoltz hits his incentives, he’ll make around $10MM for at most two-thirds of a season.
Next, from a demand point of view, there are only two free agent starters left who are better than Andy. Lowe and Sheets. Sheets has an issue and Lowe has rejected a 3 year contract at around $13M per. Lowe is better than Andy, but not by that much once you factor in the league he pitched in and the much worse defense behind Andy.
Next, this HGH issue is IMO way overblown. Yes, it embarrassed the Yanks, and I’m sure strained their relationship, but it did not affect the way Andy pitched last year. No one claims it did that I’ve read.
Andy’s numbers were down last year due to a second half shoulder injury. Almost everyone agrees he pitched through it to help the Yanks. He could have gone to Tampa in July, like some other pitchers might have done, and had very pretty 2008 numbers, but he did not.
Andy is very likely to give you 200+ innings. He’s never been worse than a league average pitcher. He’s almost always been better, usually significantly better. That would be of enormous value to the Yanks next year.
If the Yanks have decided they need another solid starter, it’s silly for them to trade Nady or Swisher for one. Neither player is going to bring back much in a trade, and why trade them and weaken our depth when we can sign a pitcher?
The Yanks appear to have budgeted at least $10MM for another starter. Andy is right there. If it takes another million or two to get the deal done it seems silly to quibble in an offseason where the Yanks gave Marte $12MM over 3 years and have spent enormous sums to be the best team in baseball.
If Andy is really holding out for $16MM, then that’s another issue. But I find it difficult to believe that’s his final position.
The Yanks and Andy ought to sit down and hash out the deal.
I really really really really hope Ca$hman comes around to signing Ben Sheets. Dude has a 3.72 career ERA. He’s averaged 178.5 inning per year over his 8 year career. He’s 30 years old. I know he’s a bit of an injury risk but he has a horrible market for himself with basically only the Rangers chasing him. Maybe he wouldn’t but I’d think he’d be willing to take a bit less (which with his market he might get the same type offers anyway) to be the #5 (you could argue the #4) on the Yankees STACKED rotation/roster instead of being the ace on a none competitive Rangers squad. I know I’d rather have a chance for a ring more than a little more money. The Yankees should be able to sign him to a short term deal (1, 2, 3 years). He might take a 1 year deal to be a FA again next off-season. I just think first of all that he’s a very good pitcher with ace stuff and he’s being very dis-respected this off-season. We should take advantage of the fact he’s still out there and fill in the extra innings we need with the guy who started the All-Star game for the NL. The Brewers cant get a second 1st RD pick from us. IMO he’d be a monster signing on top of CC, AJ and Teix. I really think we should go for it. The best case we would have had Pettitte come back but we really cant afford to try to fill 2 rotation spots with pitch-count starters. IF we bring Sheets in we’d still have Hughes, Aceves, Coke and others to fill in when someone gets hurt. If we dont bring someone in our first fill in option (Hughes) wont be there because he’ll already be filling in a rotation spot which makes our pitching “depth” weaker. Hughes could use the extra minor league time anyway. BRING BEN SHEETS TO THE YANKEES AND LETS GO GET THIS CHAMPIONSHIP RING!!!
BD-Great Harang argument.