The problem with Pettitte
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- January
- 8
The Yankees seem to be a battle of which side blinks first with Andy Pettitte and his agents.
Petitte makes a lot of sense for the Yankees. He would eat up innings, likely pitch pretty well and give the rotation some stability. He also would be agreeable to a one-year deal. Joe Girardi started saying in August how much he wanted Pettitte to return.
Understand this: The Yankees still need starters. There are innings out there to fill and provisions must be made to guard against injuries. Otherwise it’s Sidney Ponson in June again.
Pettitte went on the record saying that money wasn’t an issue; he really wanted to pitch in the new Stadium. But money is the issue, otherwise Pettitte would have taken the $10 million they offered him four weeks ago. That’s fine, he’s a professional ballplayer.
A.J. Burnett is 32, had never won a thing and is 11 games over .500 for his career. Pettitte is 36, pitched in the World Series seven times and is 88 games over .500. In his mind, a $6.5 million gap between their salaries probably seems ridiculous.
But as Pettitte waits, the Yankees have options. There are free agents out there getting cheaper by the day. Brian Cashman could trade Xavier Nady or Nick Swisher for a starter.
Both Hal Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman indicated on Tuesday that the Yankees were done making it rain for free agents. But Pettitte is family, at least for now. There’s still a deal to be made if somebody blinks.
One thing is certain: Spring training is getting closer every day.
UPDATE, 7:02 p.m.: Via MLB Trade Rumors, here is what Houston GM Ed Wade said about Pettitte: “We haven’t had any discussion with Andy or his representatives and we don’t see a scenario where he would fit into our payroll scenario at this time.”
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on Thursday, January 8th, 2009 at 11:13 am by Peter Abraham.
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“A.J. Burnett is 32, had never won a thing and is 11 games over .500 for his career. Pettitte is 36, pitched in the World Series seven times and is 88 games over .500. In his mind, a $6.5 million gap between their salaries probably seems ridiculous.”
Good point. The gap should be 4mil. As such, the Yankees should up their offer to 12mil. Andy might take it. I would.
As I’ve said before, I don’t think anyone cares that Pettitte wants money.
People get peeved because he says that it’s not about the money…and then it is. Or because he signs a contract and _then_ his name appears in a steroid/HGH report, and even if the Yankees probably knew better, it’s what the public saw that counts.
It’s always about the money…
Do you think a “Compromise Offer” of 1 year at $12 Million will allow both sides to “save face” and / or “get their points across”?
“A.J. Burnett is 32, had never won a thing and is 11 games over .500 for his career. Pettitte is 36, pitched in the World Series seven times and is 88 games over .500. In his mind, a $6.5 million gap between their salaries probably seems ridiculous.”
If we are paying them for what they did in the past, why not bring back Wells and Cone too? Burnett is a much better pitcher at this point, and is paid accordingly. You would think the lack of interest from any other team would give Andy a clue.
Pete,
if you could only keep one, would you keep Swisher or X? Goldman’s pinstiped blog seems to hate on Nady as much as possible, but I think I’d rather have a guy coming off a career year than one coming off a career worst year.. I dunno.
Pete, Andy makes the most sense for the Yanks because he can give them 200+ innings at at least a league average performance and probably better, because they can get him on a one year deal, because they would not have to trade any players for him, and because they seem to have already budgeted a salary for the slot close to what he’d probably get on the open market.
I personally think the number is light, but that’s what negotiations are for.
Do baseball beat guys have the feeling that Andy really won’t play next year if he doesn’t get $16MM or close to it? Or is it all posturing? I can’t tell from my office window.
Jonathan: Read it over again, I’m trying to tell you how the player would think. Burnett is just another guy if you’re Pettitte. He’s never even pitched in the postseason. In his mind, he deserves more. That’s all I’m saying.
My thoughts:
1) Don’t say it’s not about the money and then make it about the money. This means you’re either incompetent or a liar. Neither is a good thing.
2)Mussina took a similar pay cut ($17-$11) after a similarly bad ‘06. In a good market nonetheless.
3)Burnett is 4 years younger than Pettitte. 4 years is a lifetime for a major league pitcher. Don’t compare those two.
4)Randy Johnson is at a similar spot in his career with similar numbers and he signed for $8 million.
5)Take the $10 million Andy and end your career with the Yanks opening the New Stadium just as you’ve previously stated or tarnish your reputation even more among Yankees fans for the rest of your life.
““A.J. Burnett is 32, had never won a thing and is 11 games over .500 for his career. Pettitte is 36, pitched in the World Series seven times and is 88 games over .500. In his mind, a $6.5 million gap between their salaries probably seems ridiculous.”
Randy Johnson, who pitched better than Pettite last year, signed a 1 year 8 million dollar deal with SF.
Win total doesn’t mean all that much, but innings pitched is important. Obviously we know the differences there. I agree the Yankees still need a starter. I don’t know what kind of trades Cashman could have on the table…I could see him trading Nady+ to the Reds for Harang. I also still wouldn’t mind signing Ben Sheets if Pettitte isn’t on board. I know he’s another injury risk, but he’s better than Burnett when healthy and the Yankee system is deep on spot starters. Sheets could be the kind of threat that allows Phil Hughes to cement himself as a big league starter if/when Sheets hits the DL.
“You would think the lack of interest from any other team would give Andy a clue.”
Part of that lack of interest is due to the fact that they know that Andy really doesn’t want to pitch for anyone other than the Yankees. Who wants to sign a guy who really doesn’t want to play for the team? If the Dodgers played on the East Coast, I think Andy would look to them. If this thing with NYY doesn’t work out, my guess is he retires.
I’d keep Swisher.
Wave your hat: I haven’t talked to any of the beat writers about it. But I think most people around the team think something will get done.
“4)Randy Johnson is at a similar spot in his career with similar numbers and he signed for $8 million.”
Randy is 45. Andy is 36. They are not in a “similar spot” in their careers.
Hey Andy,
The bus is leaving and there’s one more seat. Get on or move out of the way.
Andy Pettitte has made $32m to win 29 games and lose 23. Plus go 0-1 in the postseason. He should play this season for the league minimum out of graciousness.
Swisher or Nady is a tough call. I like them both, and my brother may never forgive the Yankees for getting rid of someone named Xavier.
The one difference I see is that Swisher underperformed last year while Nady overperformed–so if Swisher is to play at the level that he was expected to play at last year, he would be the better bet.
Ugh! I feel filthy for writing that!
“Andy Pettitte has made $32m to win 29 games and lose 23. Plus go 0-1 in the postseason. He should play this season for the league minimum out of graciousness.”
I guess you didn’t see his performance in the bug game.
Wave Your Hat,
Yes they are. Looking for a 1 year deal to close out their careers. Although the age gap does weaken the argument a bit, it only makes up for Pettitte pitching worse than Johnson last year. Making their situations, in my mind, very similar.
“Both Hal Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman indicated on Tuesday that the Yankees were done making it rain for free agents.”
rodg12-
Andy’s been doing these 1 and 2 year things for some time now. Must be Roger’s influence. But I don’t think Andy’s looking to close out his career by any means.
I love Andy, but the statistics are clearly unkind in regards to players over 35. Boston has a rumored policy of not signing anyone to a contract in that age range. I think Cash is following the trend here.
Pettitte is also the kind of pitcher who can’t re-invent himself the way Moose did, so it’s a very tough call. $12M in this market for a 36 year-old pitcher off a bad year is exorbitant. I don’t think any team in baseball will make that offer.
Guys are very reluctant and prideful about not taking a paycut but they should take a step back and realize how incredibly lucky it is that they’re getting $10M a year for playing a game.
I want Andy back, hopefully they’ll split the difference with him and give him 13m offer.
However if we are going to trade Nady or Swisher for a pitcher- Hopefully they can flip one of them [most likely Nady] to Cincy for someone like Micah Owings. Either way I think trading Nady will be a mistake but if it can get someone like Micah then I’d do it
rodg: Except Johnson is a Hall-of-Fame shoe-in and Andy, for various reasons, is not.
“Plus go 0-1 in the postseason.”
I am supposing you are just grabbing stats and do not even recall that loss. That was the game where he was dominant against Cleveland until the mites or whatever came and Joba blew his lead.
If you are going to say he deserves the league minimum please do not be ignorant about what your are talking about. Andy is/was a superb Yankee.
“Ugh! I feel filthy for writing that!”
Rebecca, how can you say those things about Nady? Nady is the President of the Baseball Hotties club! He has to stay with the team. It’s blasphemy to say otherwise.
Truthfully, if I owned the Yankees and it was my decision, I’d keep Swisher too. He’s got a favorable contract, he’s not represented by that snake Boras and I think he’ll get on base more. Nady is wicked hot, but he doesn’t walk enough for my tastes, he’s fielding is only average (he’s gorgeous, but slow in the field) and I think he’s a Strike Out waiting to happen on high pitches.
Peter, would Pettite agree to a 1yr deal for say $5m if he shows up to spring training, $10m if he makes the team and x million in achievable incentives? So that if he wins 10 and we get a decent performance, then we get what we pay for? Or will he end up being paid $7m for playing half the year? (a wink and a nod agreement that allows Hughes to get some innings in the early days and then slot him in for whoever gets injured)
Burnett is younger than Pettitte, and will be making the same $16M Pettitte received. Smoltz pitched in many postseasons, has a ring, and he got 1/5.5 from Boston. Pettitte should take the $10M and whatever incentives the yankees offered to get him up to near 16, and be that. This drama is really hurting his relationship with the fans, who will boo him his first bad game.
Randy and Smoltz are both better than RJ
“However if we are going to trade Nady or Swisher for a pitcher- Hopefully they can flip one of them [most likely Nady] to Cincy for someone like Micah Owings. Either way I think trading Nady will be a mistake but if it can get someone like Micah then I’d do it”
I could be wrong, but I think it takes more than Nady to pry Owings away from CIN.
“I love Andy, but the statistics are clearly unkind in regards to players over 35. Boston has a rumored policy of not signing anyone to a contract in that age range.”
First off, who cares what Boston does? Second off, they just signed Schilling (at the age of 41)last offseason to a 1 year deal around (I think) $10 mil.
Laura, you might be right regarding the lack of interest, though there are many teams who will go after players who don’t want to play for another team (Johnny Damon: I’d never play for the Yankees!). I think the economy might enter into it seeing there are a lot of free agents still waiting. Not everybody spends like the Yankees.
In terms of Pettitte looking at Burnett never having been in the postseason – the record books are littered with the names of pitchers who have never made it to the postseason and who are/were truly great or very good pitchers. If Andy is looking at that aspect, I would say that would be his weakest argument of all. That and the fact that 5 years in baseball, when a player is in his 30s, can be a lot of years – and the 32-year-old had a pretty damned good season while Pettitte stunk out the joint in the 2nd half of the season.
At this point I’d much rather have Burnett’s case than Pettitte’s.
Rebecca – I totally agree with your take, 11:19 a.m.
Tom: Not so much, they’re about to sign Smoltz. Also, you can’t look at the money in terms of whether it’s right that a ballplayer makes that much. They do. You have to look at compared to what other players make.
Sportswriters make too much compared to teachers. That doesn’t mean I’m going to settle for less than what I am worth. It’s like that in any business. It’s all relative.
Word on Sheets is that MRIs on his shoulder aren’t great. He would be very risky. He also had elbow issues. There’s a reason his market has been so quiet.
my opinion wavers with each comment i read about Andy. 10M is a respectable offer, but if the yanks went to 12M, i don’t think there’d be much outcry. maybe Andy’s a little upset about being a #4 as opposed to the actual money? i don’t know, but i’d love to have him back as opposed to other free agents or losing a position player for a trade.
i’d also like to keep swisher over nady, if there was a choice. more plate patience, switch hits, and can play more positions in the field. i’m not going to lose any sleep if one goes over the other, however…
Blake:
The Yankees don’t do incentives. Last thing you want is Girardi, a friend of Andy, deciding whether to use him in a game that would get him to a certain threshold.
He sees all the big money being spent, and now he wants in on a piece. If he had signed earlier or for more years previously, he wouldn’t be in this position. This is what he gets for thinking he can just go year to year and make delayed decisions.
Laura: Cos my boyfriend is hotter than Nady
Toom Gaffney-
Andy did not have a “bad” year. He had a down year for him, but his numbers were league average for a starter, and they were really better than that because of the poor defense behind him.
Plus, other than 2008, Andy has always been better than league average. He was better than league average in 2008 as well until his shoulder kicked up.
The Yanks could sign him for one year. They don’t have to bet on how good he’ll be when he’s 39.
The Yankees shouldn’t pay Pettitte for past performance. They think he’s worth $10 million for next year. As far as I know, he hasn’t had any offers higher than that. Until he does, why should the Yankees increase their offer?
Pettitte has zero leverage right now. Maybe if another team offers him 10-12 mil the Yankees will budge but its a terrible idea to bid against themselves like some of you are proposing.
Andy and his agents aren’t stupid. If they get a comparable offer elsewhere they will try to get the Yankees to match it. Its not like he’ll sign at the first offer above $10 million. If his value truly is higher than what the Yankees think, Pettitte and his agents have to prove it.
Wave Your Hat,
I agree with you. His problem last year was that he faded down the strech – entirely opposite of his usual performances. You have to think that was related to the whole Mitchell Report drama. The longer he waits to sign this year the more chance he reports to camp in sub-par shape, though.
“Laura: Cos my boyfriend is hotter than Nady”
LOL!! Oh, okay. Well, you are forgiven then.
Keep the offer at 10 million. maybe raise it to 12 . if he still doesn’t accept . .time to move on .
Sheets and Perez are still out there !!
You can play cmparison contracts all you want. If it’s absurd for AJ to make $ 6.5 million more than Andy, than how assinine is is for Pettite at $ 10 milion to get twice what Wang is going to make?
Bottom line is take it or move on but please end this debate for all of our benefit.
If Pettite does ot sign I would see what kind of starter might be available for a package that is headed up by Nady or Swisher, plus Kennedy and Veras. It won’t get you a great one… but maybe a pretty good one.
I don’t know why people get so upset about this. It’s a business. You have to do what is right.
I have no idea what any of you do for a living. But a kid working in a sweatshop in Asia making 12 cents a day probably thinks you would be crazy to complain about the price of gas. It’s all relative.
If you’re Andy, you don’t look at things from any perspective other than your own. He pitched much of last season with a sore shoulder because they were on the periphery of contention and the alternative was Ian Kennedy or Kei Igawa. He sacrificed for the team. He wants some recognition of that, not a big pay cut.
I’m not saying he’s right. I’m just telling you how guys think.
Based on the Newsday article Andy is looking for 16, in which case he won’t take 12.
Also, if anyone thinks that the whole off season, hgh, Roger Clemens mess didn’t affect the way Andy pitched last year, you are wrong.
Pettitte is what the Yankees need, an innings eater who will make his share of quality starts while providing leadership and stability. The Yankees are what Pettitte needs, the organization where he had his start and greatest success and, in storybook fashion, should end his career. They just need to kiss and make up. As this is a business, up the offer to 12M for one year and have the last press conference at the old stadium announcing the deal that solidifies the rotation.
The Yankees are considering Pettitte as a #4 or #5 starter, not a top end of the rotation. Pettitte was a top end starter and paid as such, but not anymore.
He is a free agent and is free to solicit other bids if he feels that $10 million is not enough.
“The Yankees don’t do incentives. Last thing you want is Girardi, a friend of Andy, deciding whether to use him in a game that would get him to a certain threshold.”
Why would Girardi have to decide to use Andy? If he’s the 5th man in the rotation, he pitches every 5th game. There’s no decision there to be made (unless Andy is injured).
bdog: Andy’s a work out hound. I’m not worried about him showing up out of shape.
“The Yankees don’t do incentives.”
Joe Torre’s refused contract offer says hello.
Also, David Wells got an incentive-laden contract during his second tour of duty. That’s just off the top of my head.
Pettitte has leverage. The manager wants him. Teammates want him. If you could choose somebody to start an important game at Fenway Park in September, you want Andy or Oliver Perez?
I’d take Andy seven days a week and twice on Sunday. It’s not even close. Oliver Perez in the AL East? Ben Sheets and his spaghetti arm? No thanks.
“The Yankees shouldn’t pay Pettitte for past performance.”
Patrick I think that’s what most Yankee fan loyalists cannot get beyond. If Andy had a stellar season last season he would probably already have been signed, and for the money he wanted. But since he really lost it at the end and is no spring chicken, the Yankees would be idiots to sign on the dotted line because so many fans have an overwhelming sense of gratitude for what Andy did for the organization in the past!
“Sheets and Perez are still out there !!”
Sheets has a bad MRI and Perez is a headcase.
Next!!!
The fact that he only wants a one year deal should raise his value a little more too.
Laura: Those decisions would come up especially for a fifth starter because they don’t pitch every five days. They get skipped a lot. Or not.
Laura: Indeed
“If you’re Andy, you don’t look at things from any perspective other than your own. He pitched much of last season with a sore shoulder because they were on the periphery of contention and the alternative was Ian Kennedy or Kei Igawa. He sacrificed for the team. He wants some recognition of that, not a big pay cut.”
Pete, I’ve posted something similar to this maybe 100 times. The people on here don’t care.
I must admit, it’s hard for me to view Andy the same as I have in the past. He knows where the market is, where’s his loyalty to the fans? We never ranked on him after he admitted doing steroids no matter how much of an embarassment it was.
Peter:
Yeah, I knew what you were getting at. My post wasn’t clear.
The Hendricks brothers need to realize their bogus offer of 3/35 or whatever it was didnt work…..and wake up to the fact that Pettitte isnt going to get any better offer and are other pitchers looking for similar deals. If Andy truly wants to play for the Yanks……he better jump on board soon.
“Pettitte has leverage.”
If he has so much leverage then why haven’t the Yankees increased their offer of $10 million? The opposite has happened, there has been some talk that the offer will be decreased.
Pettitte has no negotiating leverage until another team offers him a deal. Yes the team needs him but if he can’t get more than $10 mil on the market why should Cashman offer him more?
Pettitte has 3 options: take the $10 mil, take a lesser deal somewhere else or retire.
for those of you who called me out on the Pettitte loss in the postseason, I take it back. I forgot about that game. In fact, I told my friend while we were watching it that it was the gutsiest pitching performance I have ever seen.
MY BAD!
Patrick-
I don’t think anyone is arguing that Andy should be paid for past performance. All things being equal, I’d like to see him on the team and a lot of that has to do with his past as a Yankee, but if I didn’t think he could really help the Yanks I wouldn’t be arguing for the Yanks to sign him.
My point is that he’d be worth at least $10MM if he shopped himself around, probably more. Why should the Yanks force him to do that? They didn’t make Marte go out and get a $3.9MM offer before they signed him.
Andy is a perfect fit for the Yanks. They offered him $10MM so I assume they would pay that. He wants more. So they should sit down and if the Yanks have to pay him a million or two more, in the scheme of things what’s the big deal?
By the by, I am watching MLB TV and they are showcasing the aftermath of the strike. They just showed the Mariners beating the Yankees in the postseason on Junior’s hit…
“Laura: Those decisions would come up especially for a fifth starter because they don’t pitch every five days. They get skipped a lot. Or not.”
They do get skipped every now and then depending how how long each series lasts and how the rotation falls. I just find it hard to believe that Girardi would sacrifice what is best for the team in order to get Andy innings.
In the end, I really don’t care how much they pay him. I just want Andy back.
I think people are over looking Oliver Perez
1- Lefty
2- Healthy . .always
3- Big Game Pitcher
4- Eats up innings
Look not much out there as far as pitchers go. Perez right now is our best bet. I know he walks alot of people and he’s a headcase . but my first four points outweight the bad!
Pete,
I understand your point but Pettite can not be selfish enough to think that the Yankees didn’t look out for him also when the whole steroid thing came out. They supported him, gave him $16 million after the fact and stood behind him out of loyalty. Whether it was the shoulder or just a bad second half, the Yankees are looking at a pitcher that wasn’t worth $16 million last season and had a bad season with shoulder problems. He’s not worth $16 million and he should stop dreaming about it. heck, he’s not even worth $12 million. If he really “cared to be a Yankee” or “wants to pitch for the Yankees when money is no object” then I don’t see what the problem is. Take the $10 million, shut up, be a #4 starter and PITCH. If he has alot in the tank, he will show them that he’s worth more than $10 million and can ask for more the following season. Yanks have been loyal to Andy out of respect, seems to me that now Andy is being loyal to Andy. Sorry Pete ALOT of fans are not going to sympathized with Andy on this one. Yanks could as easily move on. Believe me those innings will be made up somehow. Having Andy won’t guaranteed a world series either.
Pete:
Andy has some leverage but not a ton. He also can’t wait this out too long or he loses all leverage when/if the Yanks sign/trade for someone else. I don’t think he’ll get an offer for more than $10 million from somebody else. Not with the market we’re operating in today. That has to play a role.
Pettite doesn’t want to be a yankee. Trade swisher and nady and you can get a cheap adequate 4 or 5 starter
“I don’t think anyone is arguing that Andy should be paid for past performance.”
Pete and Pettitte are arguing just that. Did you see Davidoff’s article today?
“The 36-year-old’s grievances with the Yankees feature, most prominently, these three sentiments, according to people familiar with his thinking:
1. Pettitte believes that the Yankees should display more appreciation for all that he has done for them. ”
“My point is that he’d be worth at least $10MM if he shopped himself around, probably more.”
That’s your opinion but you have nothing to back it up. I think you are the only person here that believes that.
I personally am not hating on Andy because he wants more money and doesn’t want to take a pay cut.
The problem I have with Andy is the public comments time and time again saying that this year would NOT be about the money. That he wanted to ONLY pitch for the Yankees and ONLY wanted to pitch on a one year deal.
IN fact if that was the case he would take the money and already be signed. In fact it seems he wants his cake and wants to eat it too.
Also to say that he pitched with a bad shoulder was taking one for the team is somewhat correct. However part of the problem I believe on why he had a bad shoulder was because he was not able to to his regular pre season routine as he himself said and that falls only on him and the whole HGH thing.
Also does he feel that he bears no responsibility for misleading the team last year and signing his deal only a few days before the Mitchell Report came out full well knowing that he would be named. DId he not have an obligation to inform the team and not have them blindsides by it.
Like I said if he feels he doesn’t deserve a pay cut and deserves more money so be it. Just don’t play mr high and might I am only a Yankee and then change course.
“Perez right now is our best bet. I know he walks alot of people and he’s a headcase . but my first four points outweight the bad!”
The only team this guy pitches well against is us. No thanks!
“Pete, I’ve posted something similar to this maybe 100 times. The people on here don’t care.”
Laura then maybe you should be getting the hint that not everbody agrees with that perspective! One person’s sore shoulder is another person’s definite warning sign for the future.
And I might add it at least appears to be the Yankees.
Mike:
Biggest problem with Perez is he’ll want a multi-year deal and the Yanks don’t want another starter locked up for a multi-year deal so that they can work in the youngsters (Hughes, Kennedy, McAllister, Betances, etc) when their time comes.
“Pettite doesn’t want to be a yankee. ”
I think it’s clear to anyone paying attention that this is not true. Andy wants to be a Yankee. He just wants to be a Yankee at his price.
Rebecca is right. It’s always about the money.
I would imagine that the Bombers would have to resign Andy at all costs because with Jason going back to Oakland, the Bombers will need someone who can get them some of those special prescriptions that Andy’s dad can get his hands on. Wouldnt that be worth adding on just a couple of mill more at least?
“That’s your opinion but you have nothing to back it up. I think you are the only person here that believes that.”
If you’d have bothered to read a little you’d see I have made a number of posts “backing it up”.
I’m far from the only person on this site who believes that.
To turn it around, maybe you could post something that backs your position up, other than flat assertions.
I don’t think you can compare Pettitte and Perez. Not historically, anyway.
Perez is an innings-eater, Pettitte is a former #2 (being as he was never comfortable with the #1 image).
But I agree with Gayle.
I don’t care if Andy makes $5 million or $50 million, but if you tell the press it’s not about the money, then back it up–make sure it’s not about the money. It’s not like his kids are going to go hungry if he’s only making major league minimum, y’know.
“Pete and Pettitte are arguing just that. Did you see Davidoff’s article today?”
I never like articles that claim that their source is someone in the know. Until I hear Andy say “I want 16mil or else”, I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he may be willing to take 12mil.
He’s only worth more than 10 million if he gets an offer exceeding it. If he doesn’t, he’s not worth it.
He’s been shopped all winter by his agents and so far has no better offers than the Yankees offer.
Now that Pacman Jones is on the market, I’m sure he’s not happy Cash and Hal aren’t making it rain anymore for free agents. He could use a gig.
There is no guarantee that Pettitte will stay healthy, but if healthy he definitely is the best free agent out there to fill the 4th spot. However, he shouldn’t be paid like a number 1 and at 16 mil thats what he is being paid. I don’t know why athletes balk at incentive laden contracts, but if he accepted a 10 mil base with a chance to earn more then that would be perfect–not sure if the yanks would be on board with that but i dont see why they wouldnt. God forbid you have to earn your money. If only everyone had Wakefields mentality when it came to contracts.
The problem with all of this is obviously the inning limit of Joba which pretty much demands he be the number 5. (hell of a number 5) However, what is wrong with keeping what they have and throwing Aceves out there? If it doesn’t work, give Hughes a chance starting in July or trade for someone mid season. The Yanks will not win or lose the division by the performance of their number 4.
“Both Hal Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman indicated on Tuesday that the Yankees were done making it rain for free agents.”
Would you like to bet on this one?
Not only can we not believe what the Yankees “say” (e.g., “no, no, Teixeira”) but certainly not what they “indicate”.
Some of us here are operating under the assumption that an extra 1 or 2 million is all Pettite needs to sign. We don’t know that.
Wave,
You have rightly pointed out that just because Andy is going to be slotted into the #4 spot in the rotation that doesn’t mean he has to be paid like a league average #4 and you’ve also pointed out that Pettitte doesn’t “owe” the yankees anything due to the HGH issue. Both are reasonable positions.
But here’s the problem – Pettitte himself seems to be making claims that are as nonsensical as they yankees maybe – only from the 180 degree opposite perspective.
Now we don’t know if this is true but I think what Ken Davidoff wrote today makes sense regarding why Andy is so unhappy:
1. Pettitte believes that the Yankees should display more appreciation for all that he has done for them.
2. While the Yankees are asking that Pettitte take a pay cut, the team clearly is not hurting financially, given its large investments in Teixeira, CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett.
3. Pettitte thinks that his 2008 season wasn’t as bad as the Yankees are making it out to be.
Point #3 is up for discussion. However, point #1 makes no sense at all – and that’s where Pettitte is being ridiculous. Point #2 he’s also completely wrong as he’s comparing himself to guys who are either better than him or in his prime.
But it’s really point #1 that’s most egregious. I don’t think Pettitte owes the yankees much (though I do think his behvior last year with the HGH stuff was wrong…).
But why does the team owe Pettitte anything for what he’s done in the past? And if he does feel that they owe him – what is Pettitte’s corollary responsibility in return? Because it would be simply absurd for him to think that the team owes him something but he owes them absolutely nothing.
The Yankees have paid him a large sum of money for his past work. They don’t owe him anything financially.
Someone brought this up in a prior thread and its true – it’s striking how different negotiations with Pettitte have been compared to Mussina when he signed that second deal. Mussina knew he was past his prime and that he’d get a pay cut. Mussina never said anything like the yankees owe me for the past or hey I’m not getting paid like Kevin Brown or Randy Johnson. The only line Mussina drew was that he’d have to be paid more than Carl Pavano – and when he said that Cashman didn’t even argue back.
But Mussina accepted a pay cut and took an undermarket deal because he wanted to stay with the club.
The difference between the two players is very striking.
It’s really too bad Mussina retired. Wish he’d have come back for one more year.
What’s Michael Kay’s take on all this? He is so well informed, I think it would be great to get his opinion on all this since he knows baseball so well.
“Some of us here are operating under the assumption that an extra 1 or 2 million is all Pettite needs to sign. We don’t know that.”
True, but 12 is closer to 16 than 10 is so its a fair assumption {I think}.
“The only line Mussina drew was that he’d have to be paid more than Carl Pavano – and when he said that Cashman didn’t even argue back.”
You have no idea how hard this just made me laugh.
People need to get over the whole HGH BS. For starters, at that time, it wasn’t illegal, it wasn’t on the baned substance list. For another…it’s NOT a steroid…it doesn’t make you stronger and it doesn’t build muscles. It was used to heal faster, like cortizone (steroid), and even the idea that it helps to heal is debatable.
Andy’s chin is TO DIE FOR! We need to resign him so I can admire it when they do the extreme close ups on the mound. Am I right?!
But seriously, if we let him walk, that is a travesty. Look at all the Braves fans that are up in arms about my bearded fantasy signing with the Red Sox. It would be the same for us if Andy was in another uniform!!! Then again, with the new QT’s that we signed, I might just be able to forget about him!
Brent, I hope every single word of that was facetious.
The problem here is perspective. Andy has his perspective and the Yankees have there’s. Pete has aptly defined Andy’s thoughts on why he thinks he’s a $16 mil per year pitcher. The Yankees tho, believe Pettitte is no longer a #2 or #3 starter. They view him as a #4. And in the current market, the Yankees are offering (or have offered) $10 mil per year for his services for a #4. Given the market rate as defined by other signings (Randy Johnson to the Giants or Smoltz to the Sox for example), $10 mil per is generous (according to the Yankees). So Pettitte sees this as a “show me the respect” issue and the Yankees see this as a “this is market value” issue. A resolution depends on whether or not one side can get the other to at least validate the other’s perspective.
“People need to get over the whole HGH BS. For starters, at that time, it wasn’t illegal, it wasn’t on the baned substance list. For another…it’s NOT a steroid…it doesn’t make you stronger and it doesn’t build muscles. It was used to heal faster, like cortizone (steroid), and even the idea that it helps to heal is debatable.”
*AMEN!!*
yeah enough with the HGH stuff people. Its no more effective than b-12 or flaxseed oil. Andy won his games with pure heart and talent.
“Randy Johnson, who pitched better than Pettite last year, signed a 1 year 8 million dollar deal with SF”
Randy Johnson is also 45 and pitched in the worst division in baseball. He also made more than half of his starts against Colorado, LAD, SFG, and SDP.
WYH I read all the posts on here. I’ve read your arguments many times. SJ44 has put forth several arguments that support my flat assertions.
Randy Johnson just signed an $8 million contract and he had a better season than Pettitte. Tim Wakefield makes $4 million a year and he is only a bit worse than Pettitte at this point in their careers. John Smoltz who is a LOT better than Pettitte is making $10 million maximum.
Pettitte is coming off his worse season, he is a year older (and probably 1 year away from retirement) and has an injured shoulder. Pettitte @ $12 million is way out of line with all the other short term deals signed this year. Derek Lowe is probably only going to get $12 million next year and he is much better than Pettitte.
There have been no reports that Pettitte has any offers out there except for the bogus rumor put forth by his agent. That proves more than anything that his current market worth is $10 million. Its the highest offer he’s recieved. Until he gets a higher offer, that is what he’s worth.
You mentioned Marte and said the Yankees didn’t make him go find a better offer on the market. Well he had reasonable demands while Pettitte does not. Its obvious that the two sides don’t agree on how much Pettitte is worth. At this point AP has to prove to the Yankees that he deserves the $16 mill and I’m sure they’ll pay up.
CB,
. I said a couple days ago to call him up and see if he’d take the 10 million, but that’s probably not possible. Moose seems like a guy who wouldn’t ‘unretire.’
The Mussina parallel really does hurt Pettitte’s position in this. Plus his comments about wanting to pitch in the New Stadium and it not being about the money. I too wish Moose had come back for one more. Might have finally got that ring
“Rebecca is right. It’s always about the money.”
Well that’s not exactly true. We’ve seen players give a hometown discount in order to stay with a team, and we’ve seen players say they will take less than they’ve been offered elsewhere (witness Pedro Martinez and Carlos Beltran) to play with a team.
But with Andy, apparently it is about the money.
If you don’t sign Pettitte you still have to get those innings from somewhere.
The Yankees have, in theory, two proven, durable starters in the fold – C.C and Wang, and Wang is coming off of a injury.
It’s a moot point now, but Burnett has not proven to be durable during any stage of his career, expect for the year before he hit the free agent market.
It’s a huge risk the Yankees have incurred, but one with a high ceiling.
The Yankees signed Burnett because they have to believe that he has turned a corner, both in terms of health and attitude. Because his career numbers simply don’t warrant the money that was doled out to him.
Chamberlain is the fourth starter. His innings will be limited and who know how healthy his shoulder is.
So the person who takes the fifth slot has to be someone you pencil in for 180-200 innings. If not Pettitte, then who?
Take a flier on Ben Sheets? Absurd, if you are looking for reliability.
Oliver Perez? Not an injury risk, but obviously not consistent enough to warrant the money he’s going to get.
Where do you find a proven RELIABLE starter to eat the innings?
For the record: One of my immediate family remembers took (legally) HGH because of a hormone deficiency.
He went from 4′7″ to 6′1″ in about three years.
So, obviously, it works a little…
Were it $15,999,999.99, Andy would still resist. He is a man of “principle” as he defines “principle”.
Yes Bomber fans, HgH is simply like having a multivitamin that really really makes you bigger and stronger. No way would that help any athlete attain some illegal advantage, I wonder why it’s even illegal in the country without a prescription.
Love the blog, long time reader, first post.
Any chance the Yanks look to Sheets?
“rodg: Except Johnson is a Hall-of-Fame shoe-in and Andy, for various reasons, is not.”
And your point is what exactly?
“What’s Michael Kay’s take on all this? He is so well informed, I think it would be great to get his opinion on all this since he knows baseball so well.”
Is that a joke? I hope so because I’m laughing.
“The problem I have with Andy is the public comments time and time again saying that this year would NOT be about the money. That he wanted to ONLY pitch for the Yankees and ONLY wanted to pitch on a one year deal.
IN fact if that was the case he would take the money and already be signed. In fact it seems he wants his cake and wants to eat it too.”
I think Gayle makes very good points here, particularly the second.
Andy has been very, very public about his intentions. He can go back on those – that’s his prerogative but that will look hypocritical by definition.
And Pettitte really does want his cake and to eat it to. Last year he could have signed a 2 yr/32M deal. But he didn’t want to because he wanted the unencumbered freedom to retire without remaining years on his contract. That’s fine – but now a year later after signing that one year deal instead of a two year deal – he finds it wrong for him to take a pay cut after what was for him a down year at the age of 36.
So it seems that Pettitte almost effectively expects to have a rolling 1yr/16M contract at his disposal that he can simply elect to reup at the end of the season based on his decision alone. The yankees are just wrong to cut that figure. And at the same time he doesn’t need to sign a multi-year deal as he’s due that same salary. It’s as if he expects to take no risk at all.
He only wants to play for the yankees – yet expects a higher than market rate salary.
Until he does shop himself around and beat a $10M offer – his going market rate is $10M. He’s essentially telling the yankees that if you want me you have to bid against yourselves and you should do that because I’m me.
He can’t have everything. He should have just signed a 2 yr deal last season. That was his mistake. And it seems like he’s not willing to live with that mistake – but expects the yankees to correct it for him.
Amen on the HGH stuff, GB, Amen!
I just don’t understand the Petitte arrogance. He knew he was about to be named on the Mitchell Report, but never said boo about it to the Yankees until the day after he signed his $16 million contract. The Yankees supported him through this PED scandal though he was less than honest about it. He was far from effective, especially the second half last year. Now he feels under appreciated at $10 million a year when many of us are losing our pensions and sources of income and wondering if we can meet our bills each month.
Take a walk Andy! You owe the Yankees and the Yankees fans one, you arrogant SOB! Try working a real job for a living…
The Yankees can sign someone like Randy Wolf for 1 year at $8M or less. They can also move on by letting Aceves, Hughes and Joba fill out the 4th and 5th spots.
If they trade Nady, they should be able to pick up a swingman like Jonathon Sanchez from SF, for instance.
I feel much better now…LOL!
SoCalYankeeFan
Frankly, it is clear in my mind that it is Burnett who is being over-valued rather than Pettitte who is being under-valued. Burnett has excellent stuff which is far, far superior to pettitte’s at this point. While Burnett has struggled to harnass the glimpses of excellence he has shown, he also has way more potential than pettitte does.
More relevant than that, no one can overlook the fact that last season burnett was flat out much better than pettitte. Their eras differed by a half of a run with burnett pitching about 20 more innings than pettitte against the exact same competition (4.07 to 4.54). What’s more, Burnett won 18 games last year and struck out 231 batters while pettitte struck out 158 and only won 14 on a better team offensively as the jays weren’t too strong last year in that category by any stretch of the imagination. Even with all that, pettitte may be considered just as good if they were the same age but they are not. Burnett is 32 and pettitte is 36. AJ is coming off one of the best years of his career while still in his prime and Pettitte is coming off the worst year of his career which could certainly signal the beginnings of a steep decline for all the yankees know.
Finally, Burnett is being relied upon as the third starter and pettitte is being relied upon as the fourth. All of this should imply that pettitte does not deserve close to what Burnett is making and this is all considering that the yanks over payed for Burnett and refuse to do so with pettitte.
Why? Because their was a big market for Burnett and the yanks wanted him badly. There is ostensibly zero market for pettitte and the yanks dont seem to want him back nearly as much. I understand pettitte is prideful but he is also a reasonably smart man and has to realize at least some of these factors enough to consider that he isn’t making 16 million next season. And this certainly has something to do with the fact that HE HAS NO LEVERAGE – ZER0, ZILCH, NADA. No team is ready to swipe pettitte away from the yanks for 12 mil – i doubt any team is even offering him ten.
So why should the yankees who spent a boatload of money already this year bid against themselves for a player they may not even need – they could still sign sheets, wolf, garland among others or trade for someone. i am almost positive pettitte is making no more than ten million no matter where he signs so he better wise up and realize the best offer is coming from the only team he wants to sign with. That in itself should be considered a blessing in pettitte’s eyes and he should just take the deal. Otherwise, he might as well retire because he will look really foolish if he signs with another team for less than 10 mil when the yanks take the offer off the able (if they havent already).
Knowing that Andy is a man of the Lord, I have to quote a passage of the Bible that I feel may come back to haunt us if we do not resign him, it is from Ezekiel 25:17.
“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.”
Is anyone else worried Andy might come back and make the Yankees rue their decision? Also, could the message about poisoning be a reference to HGH?
Garland is out there !
I am not happy with Andy so will say that before I start on defending bringing him back. All of this now really seems to hinge on egos which gets pathetic. Andy should do the right thing here and take the $10 mill (can’t believe I said that like it’s a sad thing for him). He would be the aged veteran in the rotation and a lefty. I am sure CC and Burnett would have a lot to gain from him being around. CC being a lefty and having his own postseason struggles and Burnett not even pitching in the big show. Both would also be new to New York. Andy does potentially give them 200 innings although with his age injury is always a risk. But with 200 inning guys in Wang and CC , even 170 of something out of Andy is huge with Joba and AJ in there. Stability is a key.
Andy also allows the Yankees to work Hughes in next year without distrupting his innings schedule or Jobas. If handled correctly given Joba and Hughes are healthy you have a much better shot managing their innings. At some point you could look at a six man rotation if you wanted or give Hughes some of Joba’s starts. You Would be developing Hughes to be a more solid SP option in 2010, someone who would help cut your payroll and begin to develop your pitching talent at the major league level without missing a beat. Andy then rides into the sunset, your payroll is cut and Andy walks out a true Yankee and not one that left on band terms….. once again.
There are so many reasons Andy shoud be here. I am not happy with Andy right now as he can’t really think he should get $16, but when you see more unproven guys getting the dough and Jorge and Mo getting what they got, I am sure some is personal to him. And those who think he is done after a bad year last year I am sure will be eating their words. Seeing the Moose turnaround last year. People throwing Damon under the bus saying he was done. I would bank on Andy 180 innings 4.10 era and 13-14 wins easy and for a fourth or fifth starter, you wouldn’t find much better. Someone actually pointed to a playoff loss? You can’t be serious, he pitched a nice game in Cleveland.
Laura
January 8th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
True, but 12 is closer to 16 than 10 is so its a fair assumption {I think}.
==========
And 14 is closer to 16 than 12. No one knows what Pettitte thinks, but the phrase “doesn’t want a pay cut” in my mind means he wants $16 mil. The fact that he also thinks he’s done more in the past for the Yankees than AJ or CC also (falsely) plays into his perceptions of what he should get paid. Like CB said, the Yankees paid Andy handsomely for everything he’s done in the past. His family will want for nothing. Asking to be rewarded again for things he was already handsomely paid for in the past is ludicrous.
Pete, you’re forgetting, the ONLY time the Yankees offered any “incentives” was last year with Joe Torre and he said hell to the nah.
RMR: Sheets’ MRIs have been concerning-it’s why no one has signed him yet.
I don’t see the Yankees signing Sheets unless the deal is _very_ favorable, like, say one year for $4 million + a team option.
Roger Clemens is available too. Think he wants a pro-rated $10 mill too now?
Hugo you watch too many movies
Actually, I do not recall either Hal or Cash indicating during the Teixeira PC that there was no further interest in the FA market…to the contrary…when asked, Hal, as I recall, indicated that the Yankees would continue to monitor the market; no different than the pre-Tex days (following the AJ signing).
Nothing the Yankees do would surprise me. Keep in mind that the so-called outrageous amounts expended are amortized over the term of the respective contracts and not current charges. As I recall, they are still under last year.
Players have always been paid as much for what they have done in the recent past as they have for what is expected from them in the near future. It’s been like that since Harry and George Wright drew their first paychecks.
So I’m looking at our rotation for next season and I see Wang, Sabatthia, Burnett and Joba, as far as announced starters. I call them my 1-4 starters. So the way I see it we are looking for a #5. I don’t mind Pettitte as a 5. As much as I don’t care to have him back I don’t think he can hurt the team too much as their fifth starter. If he doesn’t work out, you can take a look in the minors. But then I think you pay him as a 5th starter, one who is going on 37 and didn’t have a great second half last year.
I think you’re missing the point GB7. Andy’s name in the report (whether or not HGH was illegal at the time or what it’s effects were) is what caused the headaches. His decision to use them (no matter how noble) was foolish. When the report came out, it created a huge PR nightmare for the Yankees despite what chemical Andy used. This is what people are arguing about – not the debate over the benefits of HGH.
Nady is up for arbitration and is a free agent after 2009 with Scott Boras as his agent.
If any OF is expendable it’s either Nady or Melky to deal for a pitcher.
I suspect Andy and his agents will come to their senses and Cashman will sign off on a $12M deal within a week.
CB-
I don’t mean to discuss Andy and the Yanks in terms of which side “owes” the other. Like you, I don’t think that’s a proper basis for getting a deal done. A baseball player should be paid based on expectations of future performance.
That said, all things being equal I’d like the Yanks to sign Andy. I think he’s a great fit for their needs and I’m personally a fan.
I think Andy would get $10MM or more if he shopped himself around. I posted my reasons why in the two previous threads, and yesterday and the day before. I know, that and $3.00 will get me a cup of coffee.
None of us know what Andy thinks, but it would be human nature for Andy to feel resentful. I think Pete has made pretty reasonable arguments on that score. But in business you have to get past your resentments and I hope Andy will.
Just as I think Andy should get past his resentments, I don’t think the Yanks should use Andy’s reluctance to pitch somewhere else to drive down his salary. While the Yanks might not “owe” Andy, he doesn’t deserve that kind of treatment either. He was an enormous part of their World Series run, which has done an enormous kindness for the Yanks’ net worth.
That’s why I don’t agree with the folks here, led by SJ44, who think Andy is worth only what the Yanks offer him.
They aren’t fighting over that much in the scheme of things, as I’ve said before. Andy would help us a lot. They ought to each put their resentments behind them and get a deal done.
You are right Pete.A.J hasn’t won a world series.But he also didn’t sign a contract of $16 million dollars 1 week before the Mitchell Report came out and knowing he would be on it.
A.J and Carl Pavano also never took HGH.Maybe if they did they would have not had so many injuries.Pettitte is replacable,a lefty to eat innings isn’t hard to find.
“So, obviously, it works a little…”
rebecca,
From what I understand, HGH has a huge effect on people who need it medically due to a deficiency but it doesn’t have anywhere near that effect on people who already make a normal amount.
And BTW that Moose-Cashman negotiation story is true – have you not heard it? If not google it. It’s hilarious. I think Cash opened with an offer of $10M and Moose basically said Brian if you think I’m going to walk into that locker room making less than Carl Pavano you are crazy. Cashman didn’t even put up a fight – no rebuttal, he just acquiesced – he just set Moose’s salary a little higher than Pavano’s and that was that.
I dont understand what hes thinking if he really believes the Yanks “Owe” him anything. Doesnt he remember leaving us to go down and play with his BFF Roger???
CB: I imagined it was something like that, re: HGH.
I knew Moose had taken a pay cut, but I didn’t realize he had used Pavano as a leverage tool!
Oh man, can Moose un-retire?
If they do trade either Nady or Swisher (without getting back a position player) they are likely clearing the way for another move, likely, a free agent.
“If you’re Andy, you don’t look at things from any perspective other than your own. He pitched much of last season with a sore shoulder because they were on the periphery of contention and the alternative was Ian Kennedy or Kei Igawa. He sacrificed for the team. He wants some recognition of that, not a big pay cut.”
If 16 mil wasn’t enough of a reward for pitching with sore shoulder than nothing will satisfy this guy. Send him totheAsian sweatshop. He deserves it for his lousy mindset.
“And 14 is closer to 16 than 12. No one knows what Pettitte thinks, but the phrase “doesn’t want a pay cut” in my mind means he wants $16 mil.”
If that is the case, I think Andy is being unreasonable. $16mil is out of the question. I’d do 12mil at the most. If he doesn’t want that, then we will have to part ways. It’s sad, really, that this can’t be worked out. Both sides want each other. Make it work, people!!
It’s like I always say; money is the root of all of the problems we have in the world today. It should be outlawed.
Wave,
You keep saying that you believe Andy would get more than 10 million if he “shopped himself around”.
He has shopped himself around. All winter!
What do you think the Hendricks Brothers have been doing all winter? They haven’t been sitting by the phone waiting for Brian Cashman to talk to them.
They have called the Dodgers, Braves, Astros, Red Sox, Rangers and I’m sure more teams than I know of.
That’s why they dropped that bogus 3/36 “offer” to the media a few weeks ago to try and shake the Yankees off their stance.
He’s been shopped ACTIVELY so far and he doesn’t have a better offer.
I don’t know why you continue to ignore that fact.
If he had a better offer, he could go the Yankees and say, “I have X on the table, can you top it”?
Without a better offer, no matter how much you like Andy, or how much you believe the Yankees should pay him, they aren’t increasing their offer.
“They ought to each put their resentments behind them and get a deal done.”
I don’t resent Pettitte at all, in fact I want him back on the team. I just don’t want the Yankees to overpay for him. Why should they?
I’m not saying you are one of these people but it seems like a lot of folks on here want to increase the offer to Pettitte just because. Why? If he can’t get a higher offer elsewhere, why should Cashman bid against himself?
Hey the porn industry is looking for a bailout. Maybe Andy could change his profession and make the $16 mil a year he is looking for!
Nah! He’s a good christian. That’s why money would never become his god…
Oops!
(It’s a joke. Well yeah, it is a joke.)
Yanks could ship Nady to the Reds for Arroyo .. could happen
I hadn’t heard that story till today CB. Great story. Makes me like Moose even more. Maybe offer him 10 mill/endless supply of t-shirts, candy, ice cream for 2 yrs/5 collectible tractors and see if he bites? Maybe?
“If he can’t get a higher offer elsewhere, why should Cashman bid against himself?”
Just because.
“Just as I think Andy should get past his resentments, I don’t think the Yanks should use Andy’s reluctance to pitch somewhere else to drive down his salary.”
I agree with much of what you are saying but I entirely disagree with this point.
This happens all of the time, especially players who are older and want to close down their careers in one spot.
They wind up taking undermarket deals because they themselves have chose to limit the potential demands for their services.
Mike Mussina did that on his last contract. Trevor Hoffman has been doing it for years. I could go on and on…
That’s their choice and they have to live with the consequences. The thing about Andy is that he seems to not want to live with those consequences and i do find that ridiculous.
People in everyday life do this all of the time. Person X wants to live in San Francisco only – they take a hit on how much they make and employers there know it. Some people really want to work for Goldman Sachs – and it’s not that uncommon that Goldman will pay people slightly undermarket because people want to work there.
It’s absolutely no different with Andy. But he seems to feel that he should have his cake and eat it to – that he should be able to limit his choice to only the yankees and still get paid as if there was a heated free agent auction for his services.
That is simply nonsense.
“Just because.”
I think Cashman should sign me to a 1 year $2 million deal. I mean, its only a few extra million, what difference does it make?
I’d keep Swisher as well. Plays 150+ games, good OBP and will get 25+ HR’s out of him. Cheaper, signed for more years. Better defensively. SWITCH HITTER.
Only thing Nady has on him is batting average, right?
I think Andy’s still bitter about the first time he was a free agent and the Yankees let him go to the Astros. And now he’s not feeling loved again. Tough noogies. You used PEDs, your old now, you ended last year 2-7. You’re lucky the Yankees, the best team out there, still loves you and wanted to give you $10mill.
At this point, I don’t care if he comes back. I still wouldn’t mind seeing a young guy get a chance in the 5th hole, whether it’s Hughes or Coke. I think this is the year Hughes becomes a major leaguer for good.
There is really no debate between trading swisher and trading nady. Why? Because look at who we gave up to get swisher: Wilson Betemit, Jhonny Nunez, and Jeff Marquez. Marquez was probably the only player the yankees realy valued in that trade but he was coming off the worst season of his short career getting knocked around in triple A and lost a good chunk of his value because of it. The white sox almost made the deal appear like it was either a salary dump or they just wanted to get rid of him and didnt care who they got back. Since this trade, Swisher has done absolutely nothing to increase his value because there hasnt been any baseball. So why any one would think that the yanks could actually get something of significant value back for swisher is beyond me – no team is looking to do the yankees any favors. Nady has far more value coming off the best season of his career thus far, young and making very little money.
IMO, swisher will probably put up better numbers than nady next year and i really, really dont like that nady doesn’t take a lot of walks – he had a 320 obp in NY. I also want to keep swish because he is a switch hitter and led the league in pitcher per plate appearance last season and was eighth in walks in an off year which helps us replace abreu and giambi in the lineup. I definitely see swisher putting up healthy Giambi-like numbers for the yankees consistently and at a fractions of the cost. But whether or not you like swisher better or nady better is irrelevant – nady has value and swisher has almost none so if we trade someone, it has to be nady which is probably the right move anyway.
*Laura
January 8th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
If that is the case, I think Andy is being unreasonable. $16mil is out of the question. I’d do 12mil at the most. If he doesn’t want that, then we will have to part ways. It’s sad, really, that this can’t be worked out. Both sides want each other. Make it work, people!! *
===============
Like I said before, it’s all in the POV and Andy has his and the Yanks have theirs. Unfortunately, they seem like they’re on opposite poles right now. I do however think that a deal will eventually be worked out… but probably not until the Yanks call him and say, “Nady is about to be traded for X, are you in or out?” Hopefully, the Yanks will give him a final chance to take the deal and he’ll be smart enough to accept it.
“He’s been shopped ACTIVELY so far and he doesn’t have a better offer.
I don’t know why you continue to ignore that fact.”
SJ44, you come on here and report stuff and we’re all just supposed to believe you. I have not read anything in print that says that Andy’s lawyers have been shopping him around. That doesn’t mean that I don’t believe it. I’m just not prepared to take it on fact just because you write it.
I also find it hard to believe that they would approach BOS when there is no way in hell Andy would ever pitch for them. Can you imagine him taking the mound in the new YS in a BOS uniform? The boos would be heard here in Chicago. No way Andy would ever let that happen.
Again, I think it’s possible (even highly probably) that some teams were called (HOU, LAD). I just don’t get why you get on people when they don’t take your word for everything.
Arroyo’s contract, much like Harang’s is not favorable.
I would expect a surprise team to emerge for Nady.
Patrick –
It really is ludicrous. I’d like to see one credible response to your query, but it won’t happen because there is none!
Hearing none, case closed!
“I have not read anything in print that says that Andy’s lawyers have been shopping him around. That doesn’t mean that I don’t believe it. I’m just not prepared to take it on fact just because you write it.”
Laura,
It’s well documented that Andy’s agents said that they had a 3 year/36M offer on the table. That was leaked to Heyman.
So if that’s the case then they have been shopping him. Heyman isn’t accurate – but he doesn’t just make things up whole cloth and lie. That’s what the Hendricks told him. So they have been shopping him.
The Hendricks also likely leaked those rumors on Boston and Andy being a fit and Andy potentially being open to going back to Houston.
forget all the money nonsense. forget all the sentiments. forget all that jazz.
the bottom line is whether or not andy can help this team next season or not. he’s definitely more reliable than hughes or kennedy, that’s for sure. but there are a host of other vets you can sign out there also.
he pitched poorly in the 2nd half of last season when he usually gets stronger so that’s a troubling sign.
do you feel he can bounce back in a similar manner as moose (of course not as good)? i don’t know if he can.
As far as Pete’s assertion that the player is looking at it from his perspective and nothing else, he’s 100% correct. That’s how ballplayers think.
That’s why ego plays such a huge role in negotiations.
Ego cost the Red Sox Mark Teixeira. John Henry and Larry Lucchino just couldn’t get over their hate for Scott Boras and it blew up 2 years of planning to get Tex.
In this case, Cash (smartly, IMO) has kept the public ego stuff to a minimum. He has been effusive in his praise of Pettitte publicly to keep egos out of the negotiations.
Ken Davidoff is a good reporter. If his report is accurate (which I assume it is), its clear Andy’s ego is now too far into these negotiations to think clearly.
Its why, from the Yankees perspective, this has to wrap up sooner rather than later.
If I was the GM, I make this priority #1 until Sunday. If I can make a deal with him, great. If not, I thank him for his service, pull the offer, and move onto Plan B.
One thing the Yankees can’t do (and I don’t think they will) is let Andy Pettitte’s ego hold them hostage from now until ST.
At some point, negotiations reach a conclusion. I think we are reaching that point in this situation.
SJ44 . .whats plan B
Laura, I don’t know if you were reading yesterday, but SJ is a man in the know.
He’s either Brian Cashman, one of the illuminati, Reggie Jackson, or Keyser Söze (my personaly belief).
Trust in the SJ.
This might be the first place I’ve ever seen someone claim that HGH doesn’t make you bigger and stronger. Wow! Better share that with NFL players who replaced steroids with hgh once testing began.
Pete I think you misunderstood my post as well as those of others. We understand what Pettite is thinking, we just disagree with the logic behind it and the hypocrisy of it. CB made a great point about how Pettite appears to be insisting he’s entitled to a standing offer of $ 16 million a year forever.
I’ll say it again. I’d love to see him on this team and personally don’t give a rats tail what anyone is paid. Just please let’s get to the conclusion of this nonsense.
I know the Yankees “don’t do incentives” but this seems like the perfect time for a deal at $ 10 million guaranteed with a half dozen or so incentives that could get him closer to the $ 16 milion he’s seeking. Why not? Levels could be set at 25, 30 starts… 180, 200 innings… 15, 18 wins or something along those lines.
Laura, if the Yankees bring Pettitte back, then they do. If they do an about face and bring him back for $16 mil, then they do. If they bring him back for any amount of money, then they do. And at that point, I agree with the Yankee perspective because I am convinced that they are so much smarter than I am when it comes to baseball.
Are you willing to say the same or are you just so stuck on bringing Pettitte back that you truly believe you have a leg up on the Yankees in knowing how to evaluate talent and pay accordingly? Just curious.
Pettitte may feel his is worth more than $10MM for 2009 but he sure as hell was not worth the $16MM he made for 2008.
He owes the Yankees something.
*Laura
January 8th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
I also find it hard to believe that they would approach BOS when there is no way in hell Andy would ever pitch for them. *
==========
Again, it’s not about whether or not andy would do it… the agents’ job isn’t solely to find andy work, it’s also to inflate the perception of market value for their clients’ services. Get the best deal they can. By leaking misleading info about potential offers, that’s what they’re doing… it doesn’t mean andy wants to be a red sock, it means his agents are doing their job.
First of all, Ponson over-achieved and deserves a shot to make this team. If we’re not bringing anyone else in I’m all for giving him a shot at our #5 spot. He could at least fill in some innings before Hughes or Aceves or Coke or whoever fills in.
Second, I really really really really hope Ca$hman comes around to signing Ben Sheets. Dude has a 3.72 career ERA. He’s averaged 178.5 inning per year over his 8 year career. He’s 30 years old. I know he’s a bit of an injury risk but he has a horrible market for himself with basically only the Rangers chasing him. Maybe he wouldn’t but I’d think he’d be willing to take a bit less (which with his market he might get the same type offers anyway) to be the #5 (you could argue the #4) on the Yankees STACKED rotation/roster instead of being the ace on a none competitive Rangers squad. I know I’d rather have a chance for a ring more than a little more money. The Yankees should be able to sign him to a short term deal (1, 2, 3 years). He might take a 1 year deal to be a FA again next off-season. I just think first of all that he’s a very good pitcher with ace stuff and he’s being very dis-respected this off-season. We should take advantage of the fact he’s still out there and fill in the extra innings we need with the guy who started the All-Star game for the NL. The Brewers cant get a second 1st RD pick from us. IMO he’d be a monster signing on top of CC, AJ and Teix. I really think we should go for it. The best case we would have had Pettitte come back but we really cant afford to try to fill 2 rotation spots with pitch-count starters. IF we bring Sheets in we’d still have Hughes, Aceves, Coke and others to fill in when someone gets hurt. If we dont bring someone in our first fill in option (Hughes) wont be there because he’ll already be filling in a rotation spot which makes our pitching “depth” weaker. Hughes could use the extra minor league time anyway. BRING BEN SHEETS TO THE YANKEES AND LETS GO GET THIS CHAMPIONSHIP RING!!!
Rebecca,
We give bURNETT five years and over 80 million guaranteed and you want to give sheets only 4 million guaranteed with NO INCENTIVES? How could you ever expect him to take that when he pitched to the tune of a 3 era last year in 200 innings. This isnt some rehab case or a washed up vet looking to come back and see what he can still do. Sheets is in his prime and coming off a season in which he was one of the best pitchers in baseball and started the All star game for the NL. I understand he is currently hurt and has a large history of injuries but he has NEVER pitched less than 110 inning in a season in his entire career. you have to give him some incentives in a contract. Asking him to take 4 mil with no incentives is ludicrous – Mark Prior could get more than that guaranteed. Pavano got 1.5 mil after making 26 starts in 4 seasons with incentives taking him all the way up to almost 6 million – Sheets hasnt made less than 17 starts in any season… That is completely unreasonable to give him a contract that low and epect him to take it. Talk about low balling!
Laura,
I could care less if you believe me or not. His agents have shopped him all winter. That’s a fact.
That’s what agents do. That’s how you gain leverage in these situations.
Without another team in the bidding, they have no leverage in the stalemate with the Yankees. That’s why they are shopping him.
There is nothing wrong with that. If I represented him, I’d do the same thing.
Just because you haven’t read about it, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. There have been stories re: the Hendricks Brothers shopping him. Perhaps you just haven’t seen them.
He has no other offers. Yet, folks believe the Yankees should just give him more money because he desires it.
Davidoff runs a story today that basically blows out of the water all of Andy’s previous, “its not about the money” comments.
If it wasn’t about the money, he would have signed already.
I’d just wish he would admit it, find a team that gives him the most money, accept it, and go forward with his career.
This way, we won’t have to deal with the pretense of him “wanting to pitch in the new Yankee Stadium no matter what”. Which we now know is not true.
*do you people seriously believe that the New York Yankees have no Plan B in place in the event that things don’t work out with Andy????? That they haven’t thought about that and are not working on that possibililty as we speak?????*
It’s really not SJ’s problem to figure out Plan B. That’s what the people in the Yankee organization are paid to do.
Justy sayin’
GB7,
In the last thread you were commenting on Aron Harang and his poor season.
I’m not sure how much you can draw from this past season – Dusty Baker as usual did an awful job over using that pitching staff. And I think part of Harang’s problems last year was related to Dusty.
He did absurd things with Harang, Cueto and Volquez like bringing them in to pitch extra inning games on short rest, etc.
I’d go by the scouting reports on Harang last year much more than I would on his numbers. He’s a very good pitcher.
And as it is I’d be shocked if Nady alone could bring back Harang.
If they could get Harang and he pitched well they could use him this year and then trade him for a lot next season. Some national league team would be very interested in him and he’d be a good way to acquire outfield help or a young SS.
“Again, it’s not about whether or not andy would do it… the agents’ job isn’t solely to find andy work, it’s also to inflate the perception of market value for their clients’ services.”
But sunny, if you are BOS, why would you even go there? They know as well as I do that Andy isn’t seriously thinking about pitching for them. Isn’t talking to his agent just a waste of time? That’s what I find bogus about that post. The list SJ44 put out there was suspect to me. That’s all I was saying.
There better be a Plan B !
“They wind up taking undermarket deals because they themselves have chose to limit the potential demands for their services.”
CB-
This is where we disagree, I guess. I agree with your business point, and I don’t think of it as the Yanks’ “owing” Andy, but given what Andy has done for the Yanks I do not think that the Yanks should try to force an undermarket deal on Andy.
SJ44-
I’m not ignoring the point, but I just haven’t seen the confirmation in print of your claim that Andy’s agent has shopped Andy around all winter, AND that those teams think they could sign him and have made serious offers. You probably have better sources than I do, but from my own knowledge I’m dubious.
And even if it were true, if Andy is willing to retire, he does have leverage. He is the best fit for the Yanks’ needs and they don’t have to make a trade to get him. So if in fact he is serious, then he might be able to negotiate a premium over what the Yanks would otherwise pay him.
Call it a convenience charge.
To tell you the truth, Andy has always been somewhat of an emotional mess and I believe that his Agents greatly influence him. Having said that, I have not really been able to read all the blog entries and it may have already been discussed, but have they made ANY KIND OF A COUNTEROFFER. I mean did they say 16 or nothing or do they have a number in mind? Anyone know?
I love how the media is turning sheets into some sort of pavano like character. When the guy is healthy, he is not a number two or three starter – he is an ace. And he has NEVER EVER pitched less than 110 innings in a season and never made less than 17 starts. He is injured alot but he also made over 30 starts and pitched over 200 innings in four of his eight career seasons. In every one of those 4 seasons, he was one of the best in the game. And even in seasons when he has injuries, he still dominates for over 100 innings of work. hOW MUCH did we give clemens for a half of a season again? Even half a season of sheets is worth more than alot of people deserve for entire seasons. This is getting ridiculous already asking the guy to take 4 million with no incentives – that means pavano may make more money than him next year. Please, please stop reading the dumb media articles that make sheets look like a walking calamity and go on baseball references to check out his actual numbers. hE ISNT nearly as bad as people make him out to be.
Mike, swear to God I believe there will be a Plan B. I believe there’s one now as we speak. And probably 25 different iterations to a Plan B!
trisha – CC and AJ and Sheets – OH MY!
January 8th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Hey the porn industry is looking for a bailout. Maybe Andy could change his profession and make the $16 mil a year he is looking for!
Nah! He’s a good christian. That’s why money would never become his god…
Oops!
(It’s a joke. Well yeah, it is a joke.)
——-
Trish, you just keep getting better and better
A few thoughts on Pettitte:
A. If the Yankees up their offer without any other major developments, they would have successfully id against themselves. Why should the Yankees let Andy Pettitte word set the market for his pitching. You don’t offer $10 million (which isn’t exactly chump change) and when the player says I want more, you give it to them. BAD BUSINESS. Go get other offers Andy and come back with them and we will talk.
B. If we go by what Pete says, and only use Andy’s perspective, than money is no issue and he wants to pitch for the Yankees (his own words). But between when he made that quote and now, he realizes he deserves more? I think he saw what we gave other people and wanted more, which is selfish, especially during the PED garbage last year.
C. I know comparisons with Boston shouldn’t be made, but how do guys like Pedroia and David Wright, in their prime, take below league average payments to play for their team, but we can’t get our 37 year old lefty pitcher to take one. I mean, we paid Andy handsomely while he was with the Yankees, so prior achievements on his part aren’t a basis for why he should get paid now, or why not bring back Bernie? He’s done more for us than Jeter, A-Rod, Tex combined.
Bottom line: Pettitte looks like a selfish fool, and he will look even sillier come February when he doesn’t have an offer and there are other arms at better costs than himself.
If Laura (who may well be Andy writing under a pseudonym) cracks and agrees that Andy should take 10mm or go elsewhere, then the end of this tawdry little saga is near.
I hope your right Trisha !!. We need some pitching depth . . or our bullpen will go to waste as well
I don’t think people should just lightly dismiss the HGH issue. The Yankees are all about protecting their brand, and the fact that so many prominent Yankees have been implicated in the steroids scandal has clearly hurt the brand. It’s definitely a good reason for the Yankees to not want to OVER-pay Pettitte.
That said, I do hope to someday go 24 full hours without hearing someone bring up the Beltran non-signing.
Hugo Simone
Oh please, Andy is not as sweet and innocient as he makes himself out to be.
grafxkid
Wrong wrong wrong, go back and look at the other contracts Joe had with the Yankees! He had incentives in the past.
In order for a player to want more money there has to be a market for them. Burentt definitely had a market and he could of went to the Braves for the same amount of money. Let Pettitte get another offer on the table before the Yanks think about improving there offer. Dodgers and Astros are both cheap and I highly doubt that they will match the offer. Also Pettitte was over paid by the Yanks the last 2 years. By about $4m per year so he can use that money towards this years “discount”. Yanks definitely have to get a 5th starter that will throw 200 innings but at this point I don’t care if it is Pettitte or someone else. What a drama queen.
YankeeRay -
Thanks! You know they say that in life one good friend is all you need? Well on a forum, one person who gets you is all you need!
Laura, it’s not about talking to Bos, it’s about creating the *perception* that there is a market for him. It’s about positioning. Getting the Yankees to rethink their stance on their offer. Don’t mix perception with reality.
i.e., if you want to hire me, and I tell you I’m desperate for work and I’d only work for you – what would you offer me salarywise?
If I told you that I have several offers on the table and I need it to be $X dollars to make it competitive, what would you offer?
Do you know I have other offers? Perception vs. reality.
“He’s only worth more than 10 million if he gets an offer exceeding it. If he doesn’t, he’s not worth it.”
What?!?!? So in that case CC definitely isn’t worth 160 million since he didn’t get an offer exceeding his 160 million. Posada isn’t worth his deal either and neither is Mariono Rivera.
Who is worth their deal if you need an offer to exceed your current offer in order to be worth.
Is A-Rod worth it? Nope. Nobody exceeded the Yankees offer last year.
Truth is Pettitte is worth a lot more than 10 million dollars to the Yankees.
Let’s say Wang gets hurt like he does every year. Joba can’t stay healthy and Pettitte doesn’t sign. The rotation is then CC, AJ (who also is a ?), and then who? Hughes, Kennedy and someone else?
Now if you have CC and Pettitte in the rotation you are pretty much guaranteed 2 starters who will pitch 200 innings.
The Yankees may want to put Pettitte in the #4 slot in the rotation but the truth is they want him to be more than a #4.
If it’s true that they’re haggling withi Pettitte over 2 million dollars then they’re being incredibly asinine. It’s a joke that Andy owes the Yankees. He could have exercised his 16 million dollar option a month before the Mitchell report ever came out and then what? Does he still owe them?
Please stop talking about Sheets. Everyone is turned off by his medical records–including the Yanks.
Burnett was healthy last year and Pettitte wasn’t so please don’t make the argument that Burnett may get hurt so they need Pettitte.
Personally, I’m fine with Aceves getting a first crack at starting provided he has a good spring. Coke as well. Supplement them with Hughes sometime in the second half and if all else fails make a trade. The Yanks have options and don’t need to go spending double digits again on a number 4.
I’d love the Harang pick up if we could get him but I’d give up a lot if we could have Volquez instead.
sunny, you are right. The problem is that Andy is trying to do both. At the end of the season he was saying he’d only play for the Yankees. Now his agents are trying to create the perception that there are other offers out there.
CB
January 8th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
GB7,
In the last thread you were commenting on Aron Harang and his poor season.
I’m not sure how much you can draw from this past season – Dusty Baker as usual did an awful job over using that pitching staff. And I think part of Harang’s problems last year was related to Dusty.
He did absurd things with Harang, Cueto and Volquez like bringing them in to pitch extra inning games on short rest, etc.
I’d go by the scouting reports on Harang last year much more than I would on his numbers. He’s a very good pitcher.
And as it is I’d be shocked if Nady alone could bring back Harang.
If they could get Harang and he pitched well they could use him this year and then trade him for a lot next season. Some national league team would be very interested in him and he’d be a good way to acquire outfield help or a young SS.
————————————————————
I’m looking at the games before his injuries. First 20 games a 9 with at least 4 earned runs and 20 homers….That’s not worth 25+ mil over 2-3 years. To quote others on this board….you don’t pay for what they did in the past. Not sure who said that.
Andy left to the Astros because he did not feel wanted or appreciated. If I remeber right, for less money as well.
Maybe the way this whole thing went down (with all the money being tossed at CC and AJ) Andy took offense. We were not any meetings. We dont know what his agents, or the Yankees are telling him.
I think Andy is an honorable person. And maybe, just maybe being offered such a paycut, is not making him feel wanted or appreciated. I know it sounds ridiculous when your talking millions, but if there is one player out there, that it might not be about money, money, money it’s Andy. I’m with Laura compromise and get it done.
Nady or Swisher for a BP arm
Garland 2 or 3 years @ 8-10 per.
The end of the offseason!
Your wrong Vincent . .Aceves . Coke and Hughes . don’t have the arm strength or innings to be starters . Joba is on a strict pitch count , and Burnetts health is shaky .. We need a innings eater !
I don’t want to blow bullpen arms every 4th and 5th start
“John Smoltz who is a LOT better than Pettitte is making $10 million maximum.”
John Smoltz pitched 28 innings last year. 28! He also is coming off of labrum surgery so all that A lot better than Pettitte stuff is purely speculation at this point.
He’ll also make 10 million for pitching half a year if he reaches his incentive.
Are you really trying to tell me that John Smoltz is worth 10 million for half a year and Pettitte is worth 10 million for a full year?
plan b is a pizza night
dave: I was illustrating a point, not proposing a serious offer.
Anyway, you seem to be obsessed with Sheets-there’s a large chance it’s not happening, though, and many here have pointed out why.
Why increase the offer, as some suggest? That is only bidding vs themselves. $10MM is very generous to a pitcher who had one of his worst seasons, certainly his worst 2nd half. RJ got $8MM from SF, the market for all players not named CC, AJ or Tex is way down. Giambino took a $16MM+ pay cut. Andy needs to realize this isn’t FA the way it used to be. I think there is a lot of fuss about a#4/#5 pitcher.Andy isn’t going to make or break the NYY 2009 season. If he doesn’t like $10MM the NYY should move on. Give PH/ IPK/ AA a chance. Otherwise what was the point of drafting all those pitchers the last few years.If they fail the NYY can always trade midseason for a veteran innings eater.
“I hope your right Trisha !!. We need some pitching depth . . or our bullpen will go to waste as well”
Mike, let’s talk about best case scenario. Typically the rotation doesn’t always consistent of innings eaters, and that’s when your bullpen starts to go to hell. But if you have innings eaters in the majority of your pitching staff and then have to deal with one or two who are less than that, you will probably be okay. We started to go to hell early last season because we had problems with our starters not being able to last for very long.
At this point, look at what we have in Wang and CC alone, in terms of eating up innings. Burnett isn’t exactly shy in terms of pitching deep into games. I think we are probably going to be in very good shape with our pen due to Wang and CC alone. And I bet you will see Burnett add to that depth.
Laura- Why would they go there? Maybe to stick it to the Yankees? Maybe to drive up the price.
And before anyone mentions they ‘overpaid’ for Jorge in terms of years and $$. The mets were going hard after him, they knew they’d offer him $$. They knew the free agent catchers on the market were garbage. They couldn’t afford to lose him. As evidenced by what happened this season. Jorge had them against the wall, he knew they needed him, as much as he needed them.
Ray,
The difference with Arod, CC, & Mariano is they are the best at their position. You can’t compare any one of them to anybody else in the game, with the exception of maybe CC and Sabathia, whose deals are similar, though CC’s is better due to his age.
Andy, to my knowledge, is not the best starter on the market. He’s not even the best #4 starter. The reason the Yankees held him in such high regard, IMO, is that he is a guy with a history with the Yanks, he wanted to pitch their, and, im sure they assumed he would be a bit more affordable than other #4 or 5 starter options due to the history. Once he became little prissy boy fighting over 2-3 million, im sure the Yankee brass was turned off.
I’ll be 42 soon
CC and Santana*
Sheets is such a high reward signing he’s worth the health risk. Besides, its for a #5. #5’s get skipped. He’s got ace stuff and besides 3 seasons puts up a lot of innings. If he’s healthy he’s BETTER than AJ. his market is horrible so he might be cheap. I think its extremely close minded to act like adding another possible ace to the staff is a bad idea when the other argument is to go with the young guys. They will still be there! If Sheets gets hurt it will only cost us $ and with this market it wont be a Pavano type of impact. And lets not act like $ is a problem or a few $MM should hold them back from a move. Sheets is the best player left on the market. It’s ridiculous he’s still out there. We NEED to take advantage!
raymagnetic— You missed the point. A player is “worth” whatever someone is willing to pay him. No more and no less. If a player doesn’t have an offer over $ 10 million than that’s what he’s worth. CC, Tex, AJ are all “worth” what they got.
If your sceanrios played out then perhaps Pettite would be “worth” more. The only way to calculate worth in the free market is reality. Anyone in baseball can sign Pettite so he’ll find out what he’s worth in that manner. those of us fed up with this process don’t much care what he gets paid, but we’re tired of pouty, spoiled athletes telling us it’s “not about the money” and then feel unappreciated because they are ONLY being offered $ 333,333 per start.
Why would the Yankees be stupid for setting the maximum they’ll pay but Pettite isn’t stupid for turning down what is probably a major league record one-year offer to a guy who went 2-7 down the stretch the previous season?
Can anybody pose an arguement against one of
A. an incentive based deal beginning at 10 and possibly reaching 14-16, taking ERA, innings, and wins into account.
B. adding a team option for 2010 based on marks reached (again, ERA, innings, wins).
Obviously Andy will not get a two year deal from anybody IMO. So, we tell him, heres your $10 mill, if you do what we need you to do, consider another 10 waiting for you for next season.
Up the offer Yanks, makes too much sense.
Ray,
You brought up a bunch of things that have nothing to do with Pettitte’s situation with the Yankees.
Its about LEVERAGE.
Let me take them one by one:
1. Arod. The Yankees wanted Arod back for two reasons. One, he’s a great player. Two, he sells tickets, the EXPENSIVE tickets to the new Yankee Stadium. He is also a long term investment. Unlike Pettitte at this team.
2. CC. See the above with one caveat. They are paying him a premium because he’s the ace of the staff and they needed an ace. They also had to pay a premium because NY was not his first choice. That’s how it goes.
3. Posada. One lunch with Omar Minaya got Jorge his deal. Only thing worse than losing Posada for the Yankees would have been losing him to the Mets.
In each of the above situations, the players had a certain amount of leverage to get their deals done.
What is Andy’s leverage here?
He has no other offers at this time.
Yes, he can retire. That means, he leaves 10 million on the table. That’s smart?
The Yankees can numerous Plan B options. They can make a trade, sign another FA, or plug in from within.
I’m just not seeing where Pettitte’s leverage is here.
Without leverage, he isn’t getting more money from the Yankees.
With all the doomsday scenarios you painted above, you left one out.
What if Pettitte’s signs and gets hurt? That’s just as likely, especially since he was hurt last year, as any doomsday scenario.
Andy Pettitte isn’t the only pitcher to fill the last slot in the rotation.
Would I like to see him return. Yes, on two conditions.
1. He’s ready to pitch and whine about the money.
2. The Yankees don’t overpay for his services.
If those things happen, it would be great for him to return.
If not, I hope they move on.
“So in that case CC definitely isn’t worth 160 million since he didn’t get an offer exceeding his 160 million. Posada isn’t worth his deal either and neither is Mariono Rivera.”
CC is worth 161M because that’s what the yankees offer was. But he’s not worth 165M or 162M even as no one offered that on the market.
Just as Posada is clearly worth 4yr/52.4M because that’s what the market bore for him but he’s not worth 55M as no one offerred him that.
Alex is clearly worth 10yrs/ 275M guaranteed but he’s not worth 280M as no one offered him that.
I’m not sure who made that first point but it’s correct – at this current time on the market Andy is worth $10M/1yr as that is his going top rate.
If tomorrow someone offerred $12M or even $16M than that’s what Andy would be worth.
To say Andy is worth more than his top offer on the market would require an entirely different frame work for valuing players.
IMO Pat Burrell is worth way more than 8M/yr based on his likely production but ultimately that is what he’s worth as that’s what his market wound up at.
“I love how the media is turning sheets into some sort of pavano like character. When the guy is healthy, he is not a number two or three starter – he is an ace. And he has NEVER EVER pitched less than 110 innings in a season and never made less than 17 starts. He is injured alot but he also made over 30 starts and pitched over 200 innings in four of his eight career seasons. In every one of those 4 seasons, he was one of the best in the game. And even in seasons when he has injuries, he still dominates for over 100 innings of work. hOW MUCH did we give clemens for a half of a season again? Even half a season of sheets is worth more than alot of people deserve for entire seasons. This is getting ridiculous already asking the guy to take 4 million with no incentives – that means pavano may make more money than him next year. Please, please stop reading the dumb media articles that make sheets look like a walking calamity and go on baseball references to check out his actual numbers. hE ISNT nearly as bad as people make him out to be.”
Thank you Dave! ?Finally some saity. They act like he’s some bum whose been hurt every year of his career. Its simply not the case. Adding Sheets to CC, AJ, Wang and Joba with Hughes, Coke, Aceves and others would put us over the top. PLEASE SIGN BEN SHEETS!!!
Mike I’m not wrong, you just disagree. Forget about Joba’s innings because he will be the number 5 which will allow them to control that. There is nothing wrong with mixing up guys for the number 4. Aceves realistically, based on innings thrown in the minors and mexican league, can go 150 innings. He is 26 not 22. Also, supplement him with Hughes at the end of the year and they will get the innings they need out of that spot in the rotation.
If Burnett was such a health risk then the Yanks wouldn’t have signed him. He was healthy last year, Pettitte was not.
Girardi also masterfully controls the innings of the bullpen. If they didn’t get blown out last year then its safe to say they will be fine this year.
There is nothing wrong with depth, but spending the money on Pettitte is not the way to attain it especially since he can be considered on the downside of his career and an actual injury risk.
“I know comparisons with Boston shouldn’t be made, but how do guys like Pedroia and David Wright, in their prime, take below league average payments to play for their team, but we can’t get our 37 year old lefty pitcher to take one. I mean, we paid Andy handsomely while he was with the Yankees, so prior achievements on his part aren’t a basis for why he should get paid now, or why not bring back Bernie? He’s done more for us than Jeter, A-Rod, Tex combined.”
Joey (and others),
My view is, you have to look at it through your own career/business. If you’re young and are relatively new to the business, and someone offers you a significant raise/contract because you have done some good things and show promise, more likely than not, you’re going to take it and be very happy, instead of thinking “hey, why don’t I get what the VP is getting?”
However, once you’ve been in the business for a while and worked your way up to VP, you now have a sense of what you are worth. It’s less a sense of paying for past performance per-se, but really about “I’ve paid my dues and worked hard to get here, this is what I am worth”. Now, baseball obviously works on a different economic level, but the base principles of being new to your business v. being a seasoned worker still apply.
I know that when I first broke into my industry, I was happy to have a job and felt good about being rewarded with raises/promotions. Now, I have a sense of what my experience and work ethic are worth and I wouldn’t take a significant pay cut because I believe that my ‘value’ is higher than that.
I don’t think MLB contracts allow for performance incentives such as wins, ERA, HR, BA. At bats, Games pitched/started, Games played are about it.
We could have gotten Pavano as the fifth starter for 1.5 million!
Meant to say, ready to pitch and NOT whine about the money.
CB, how about your analysis of the impact of the ticket returns and what Manny would mean to offset that:
Good morning all and welcome to my daily Manny blog.
This one has some interesting finacial implications.
I won’t knee jerk react to the Red Sox signings though signing Manny would certainly be the trump card of all trump cards.
Gammons heart would not be able to take that one.
From a financial perspective, Boras says that Manny will pay for himself. When I hear that I always think, well we are alreay drawing 4 nillion fans so Manny won’t impact our ticket sales enough to pay for himself.
Well last night I was told by a reliable source that the Yankees have had over 25 million of suite and season ticket inventory returned due to the economic climate as many corporations have backed out of their 2 million per year suites.
This makes Manny attractive financially as Boras may indeed be right as he could help the Yankees resell some of the lost ticket sales.
As far as on the field goes it is becoming more and more obvious that we will move either Nady or Swisher. It is also pretty obvious that Damon or Swisher won’t be playing CF.
Yes we need a 4th starter but we also need a better 5 hole hitter to guarantee more runs scored IMO. After 4 we are very suspect as leiter said on the hot stove.
We need to find a way to move Matsui opening up a spot for Manny as Matsui is 1 and done and we are building this thing for at least a 3 yr run.
We have long term plans in place with Tex and Arod along with our young pitching and hitting prospects.
This team as is will turn over again next year with Nady,Matsui,Damon all coming off the books and no guarantee that Holiday will join us.
The time to strike is while the iron is hot and that is now. Manny wants to be a Yankee and belongs in the AL.
This will give us an awesome line up for the next 2-3 yrs while we continue to grow the farm. Our pitching is in place for a long run and so is our bull pen.
Cash is stealth on this and he will get the “Manny really wants to be a Yankee” call from Boras soon. What will he do with that is critical to the Yankees short term future.
He can have a Nady and Matsui trade lined up so he can negotiate a deal with Manny and take care of all family business in one creative swoop.
Tell me whyy this doesn’t make sense and why you wouldn’t want his bat behind Arod. Would you rather see the Mets jump in late and add him to Reyes,Beltran,Delgado,Wright?
And please don’t give me the attitude issue. If he came to the Bronx he would hustle and want to win in front of his home town fans that would appreciate him just like the Dodger fans did. Why do they want him back so bad? Because he is a difference maker.
Suck up the payroll for 1 season and we will win #27 and #28 in the next 3 yrs.
You are crazy if you think the Yanks will go with Hughes/IPK/Aceves in the #5 spot. Those guys will get plenty of time when Wang/Joba/AJ get injured.
“agree with your business point, and I don’t think of it as the Yanks’ “owing” Andy, but given what Andy has done for the Yanks I do not think that the Yanks should try to force an undermarket deal on Andy.”
Wave,
One of the things I don’t understand about your argument is the notion that the yankees are “forcing” him to do anything.
They’re not forcing him to anything at all. He’s an adult and a free agent and as such is able to make any choice he wants.
He could sign with another team, he could retire. The choice is completely his.
Just compare Pettitte to Smoltz. Did you think the Braves were “forcing” Smoltz to take a deal? No of course they weren’t – Smoltz could do what he wanted to. And he did. He signed with Boston for $5.5M guaranteed.
Andy is more than free to do the same. No one is forcing him to do anything.
His contention seems to be however, that he is being forced or is being boxed in. But that is really self-indulgent if he does feel the way reports are suggesting he does.
He’s not being forced to do anything.
Giantthinker,
Joel Sherman talked about Sheets on XM yesterday.
He said the Yankees, as well as several other teams, backed off him because of his medicals.
He said, in addition to his shoulder and forearm issues, he has back problems and that scared teams off him, the Yankees being one of them.
Don’t shoot the messenger. Just reporting on what he said.
The Other Phil,
Point taken, Unfortunately, unlike most jobs, sports is WAY different. I would imagine an accountant or financial advisor doesn’t have a prime at 28-32 and fizzle out around 35? When the Yankees pay a guy, that is an investment. No business wants to pay for an investment and not get the returns it expects, nor overpay for an investment not worth that money. In most sports, it doesn’t, or shouldn’t, matter how long you’ve been there or who you know in the org. or what you’ve become accustom to. It’s all about what you bring to the team, and Andy’s services are worth $10 million.
Unlike most businesses, your worth drops significantly in sports, especially over the hill pitchers.
point taken vincet and trishta
If the Yankees had resigned Pavano, the world may have exploded.
The Yankees have already sold 4 million tickets for next year. They don’t need Manny Ramirez to sell tickets.
He will most likely re-sign with the Dodgers. Probably within a week-10 days, unless Scott finds one of his infamour “mystery” teams.
Green beret,
Innings? i mean, thats why we are getting him. Innings incentives? do they exist?
This isn’t being fecetious, im asking
Didn’t the Red Sox use Clay Buchholz, Justin Masterson, Bartolo Colon and Paul Byrd in the number 5 last year with Lester in the rotation as well? So don’t give me that the Yanks can’t mix up people for a spot.
Keep in mind if no one emerges in Spring Training, they can make a trade. At least see what you have first.
They should have signed Smoltz or Penny. Their bad.
Re:Sheets
I think I’d rather take the medical experts’ opinion who have actually viewed his medical records and xrays before I’d think about arbitrarily making an assumption on his future performance based on past history. What was Pavano’s history (not comparing who’s the better pitcher) before he signed with the Yankees? Any elbow or butt troubles? Nope. But he had them. What’s Sheets’ history and what can you likely expect given that he’s older and been through a slew of injuries? Do you think he’ll be a work horse? Seriously?
Once the Yanks signed Burnett that took them out of the Sheets sweepstakes. The Yanks can not have 3 pitches in the rotation that are injury prone. Also alot of reports said that the Yanks and other teams were scared away by his medical history. Obviously it was not good. A 5th starter who can throw 200 innings is very important to the Yanks. You would expect Wang and CC to be healthy. Burnett’s history shows he might need some time off, Joba can’t pitch the whole season and who knows if he can stay healthy for even 100 innings. The rotation obviously has a chance to be very good but it has a chance to break down. That is why they need someone else that they can count on….Not a kid in Hughes/Aceves/Kennedy who haven’t proved anything. They will be ok as fill ins not to be given the job handed to out of spring training. They need more depth…
“Didn’t the Red Sox use Clay Buchholz, Justin Masterson, Bartolo Colon and Paul Byrd in the number 5 last year ”
Yes, but they werent too worried about injuries with the rest of the staff as we are. Along with innings limits.
that was directed toward Russell NY
“ow about your analysis of the impact of the ticket returns and what Manny would mean to offset that:”
YankeeRay,
I’m not sure what your referring to but if you’re asking about Manny’s potential impact on ticket sales/ revenues it would be close to $0. The stadium is basically sold out for the year and it’s implausible to believe that Manny signing would induce any businesses to shell out for any remaining luxury boxes. If CC, Tex, and AJ didn’t get someone to buy a luxury box the marginal addition of Manny won’t either.
Now that Tex is signed I can see almost no reason to sign Manny.
It’s great to think about Manny’s upside but given how good the yankees are right now I would be much more worried about his potential downside than the marginal improvement he could be over matsui at DH.
Mike Mussina was a hell of a lot smarter than Andy.
Mike, I might be in the minority in thinking this but I truly believe that Hughes is going to be ready to slot into the 5th spot
Nady for Roy Oswalt. Trade Melky + mid-tier prospect for Jake Peavy. Vargas for Beltran. Posada for Saltalamachia but Texas has to pay Posada’s entire salary.
Problems solved.
No really, who are we trading Nady for? Any darkhorses?
I just hope that Petite keeps that HgH away from my man Alex, I like him just the way he is.
FYI just spoke to the Yankee ticket office they hope to be in contact with partial season ticket holders about the relocation assignments sometime this month or next month. So I guess in this instance patience is a virtue.
Like I said earlier I think at this point I will just take whatever they assign me and try and upgrade every year.
JoeyA
January 8th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Green beret,
Innings? i mean, thats why we are getting him. Innings incentives? do they exist?
This isn’t being fecetious, im asking
————————————————————
Somebody said to offer incentives on wins era…all I was saying is that those performance incentives aren’t allowed, but, IP, Games started, Games pitched/played and Plate appearances are. Unless things have changed in the plast two years, that’s the rules on incentive based contracts. Awards based contracts are also allowed….MVP, GG. CY, Silver Slugger. Somebody can correct me if they know.
Do folks really think that Andy employs agents to sit around and wait for their caller ID to say “Yankees,” and otherwise to do nothing at all? Forget Andy’s job, I want his agent’s job then!
Andy hamstrung them by saying that he only wanted to pitch in NY. Therefore, all he needed was an offer from the team. Low and behold, he has an offer from the Yankees! But wait, he has not accepted it; that would indicate that he wants more money. The only way to convince the Yankees to offer him more money – unless they want to bid against themselves – is to convince them that he is about to get more elsewhere. Hence, the phantom 3-year offer. Apparently, the Yankees did not take the bait. Do you think that there are REAL offers out there from other teams that the Hendricks are just keeping to themselves?
Or is it that not one other MLB team believes that Andy is worth more than $10M? Don’t tell me that all of these GM’s are afraid to call Andy’s agentvand make an offer because he’s expressed a desire to stay a Yankee. He’s left before when his nose was out of joint. He has misjudged his market.
CB: Thanks for voicing a sane opinion about Harang. I was starting to feel like a character in the Twilight Zone.
GB7: I don’t understand what your beef is with Harang. His performance as a starter over the last 4 years has been very good both in terms of quality and IP. In fact, he compares pretty favorably to CMW. He had a terrible stretch in the middle of ‘08 apparently due to abuse on the part of Dusty Baker, which eventually landed him on the DL for about a month. He came back to finish the season with a 2.83 ERA over his last 8 starts. There seems to be no evidence of either an ongoing injury or of a sudden loss of skill at age 30.
Look at it this way: If not for last year’s two-month swoon, Harang’s record would easily qualify him as a reliable no. 1 or no. 2 starter on just about any team in baseball. Does a single, injury-related stretch of 10 bad starts really justify dropping his value to the point where he is no longer deemed good enough to serve as a no. 4 or 5 pitcher on the Yankees? I mean, it’s not like the Yankees’ rotation as presently constituted is completely devoid of question marks.
The one signing I do envy the Sux at this point (or almost signing if that is the case) is Baldelli. I just have a feeling that he is going to be a tremendous asset.
Will Pedro get a contract somewhere?
First, I do understand that something is only worth what another person is willing to pay for it.
However it was SJ’s assertion that Pettitte is only worth 10 million to the Yankees because no one has exceeded that offer.
In my opinion that is incorrect assertion. Just because the Yankees paid CC 160 million dollars doesn’t mean he’s worth it. It especially doesn’t mean he’s worth it if the prerequisite for what he’s worth means someone else had to offer him a similar contract.
The Yankees are kidding themselves if they think that Pettitte isn’t worth more than 10 million to them regardless of what other offers he may or may not have on the table.
The Yankees may have other plans in the works but the truth is Pettitte is the best option for the Yankees at this point in time and it would be in their best interest to make sure a deal is done and not haggle with him over a couple of million dollars.
The Yankees could either have CC, AJ (?), Wang (?) Joba (?) and whatever poo poo platter of pitchers or have 2 definites in the rotation to pitch 200 innings at league average of better.
Right now as currently made up there is only one starter in the Yankees rotation who you can say will more than likely pitch 200 innings and that’s CC Sabathia. All the rest have known injury histories and are question marks in my opinion.
i believe if we sign manny well get more fans to come to the game and the yanks wil make more money by that u noe this season many people are gona buy lots of jersey and yankee t-shirts i really hope they sign manny cuz this team qill get better and he makes the lineup better.
and i will trade nady for harang of the reds he is a inning eater and hell be perfect in that number 4 starter that will b great and having joba 5 even if we have to add a prospect in there i will definetly do dat trade
If Andy wins the Cy in ‘09, he can have $32 milion for 2010.
Here are the guidelines for incentive based contracts
http://reconditebaseball.blogspot.com/2008/12/contract-incentives-and-games-finished.html
As Major League Rule 3(b)(5) says: “No Major League Uniform Player’s Contract or Minor League Uniform Player Contract shall be approved if it contains a bonus for playing, pitching or batting skill or if it provides for the payment of a bonus contingent on the standing of the signing Club at the end of the championship season.”
JoeyA,
I completely agree that baseball is different, most obviously that the salary figures are incredibly high. But the basic principle of Andy’s sense of ‘worth’ applies. I don’t know if Andy is worth $16m or $10m or whatever figure. But, to Pete’s original point, ANDY (or his agents or both) thinks that his worth is more than $10m. While the timeframe is much longer in ‘regular’ business, all companies are making an investment in you as an employee and expect a certain performance. If you are not performing up to standards, then they will find someone else that they believe will for the price they are paying you (or cheaper). A CPA or financial advisor may not fizzle at 35, but will at some point. If the company is ‘reorganizing’ and renegotiates his/her salary, it is the same principle as Andy’s situation. The CPA would usually think ‘hey, I’ve worked hard to get where I am, I am worth X dollars, not the Y dollar figure that you’re offering’.
I hope Andy and his agents sign. I’d like to have his vet presence at the back end of the rotation. But I won’t cry if he doesn’t. He’s left before and it was bound to happen sooner or later.
Russell
whose Vargas??
OK, this blog needs to get one thing straight: Wang IS NOT an injury risk. The guy was injured rounding the bases. It was his foot. And Joba was injured late in the season, when the whole team was on his back. I don’t think that kind of pressure will exist at any point this season on Joba. Burnett is the only true injury risk we have in our rotation. I was always against this size of a deal with Burnett, but it’s what we have to deal with.
SJ44-Thx for the info.I’ve heard about his back too but I still think he’s worth the risk now that Andy says he’s not coming back.
“No really, who are we trading Nady for? Any darkhorses?”
Not even a full yr. has passed, I knew this deal was horrible. So far the only good that came from it was Marte who is inconsistant and Phil Coke’s developement. If Jose Tabata ever puts it together….
How do you know Pettitte is their best option?
If they traded for Jake Peavy for example, isn’t he a better option than Andy?
What if Phil Hughes steps up this year and can fill that slot. A minimum salaried guy. Wouldn’t that make him a better option than Andy?
My point is, we don’t know what else the Yankees have in the pipeline.
On the surface, it would appear that the Yankees and Andy are a logical match. However, if they can’t bridge the gap, I have a hard time believing the Yankees will be unable to find anybody to fill that slot in a capable fashion.
BD
January 8th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
CB: Thanks for voicing a sane opinion about Harang. I was starting to feel like a character in the Twilight Zone.
GB7: I don’t understand what your beef is with Harang. His performance as a starter over the last 4 years has been very good both in terms of quality and IP. In fact, he compares pretty favorably to CMW. He had a terrible stretch in the middle of ‘08 apparently due to abuse on the part of Dusty Baker, which eventually landed him on the DL for about a month. He came back to finish the season with a 2.83 ERA over his last 8 starts. There seems to be no evidence of either an ongoing injury or of a sudden loss of skill at age 30.
Look at it this way: If not for last year’s two-month swoon, Harang’s record would easily qualify him as a reliable no. 1 or no. 2 starter on just about any team in baseball. Does a single, injury-related stretch of 10 bad starts really justify dropping his value to the point where he is no longer deemed good enough to serve as a no. 4 or 5 pitcher on the Yankees? I mean, it’s not like the Yankees’ rotation as presently constituted is completely devoid of question marks.
————————————————————
I don’t have a “beef with Harang”. He was hurt, hasn’t showed that he’s healthy, as far as I’m concerned and not worth 12 mil a year.
AJ Burnett has never won a thing! He is only 11 games over .500 for his career!
Holy God, Pete Abraham. Are you paid for revelations like these? Honestly? AJ Burnett has played for Florida and Toronto. It’s too bad he was hurt when Florida won the World Series. But are we going to give him a hard time for appearing on the 2001 team, when offensive luminaries Eric Owens, Luis Castillo and Alex Gonzalez caused opposing pitchers to dread the bright lights of Pro Player?
How about 2007, when he went to war with this Murderers’ Row: Zaun, Overbay, Lind, McDonald and Wells.
Doesn’t one, at some point, begin to suspect that W-L record and team success correlate strongly to team offensive production? Or is it somehow AJ’s fault that his career W Pct. is .534 with an ERA+ of 111? Doesn’t one, at some point, begin to suspect that 2009 with Andy is liable to yield lots more of these innings:
Church singled; Wright singled; Beltran singled RBI; Alou walked; Delgado popped out; Easley struck out; Schneider walked RBI; Castillo singled RBI; Reyes popped out
maybe because he’s going to be 37, is overrated, and is no longer juicing?
i also think the yankees should take fliers like the red sox did with penny and smoltz i said a couple months ago we should sign smoltz so he can be a setup man for mo if healthy hell be perfect in that role and he can really help out the young pitchers like kennedy hughes and even joba and the rest of the relievers
“I’m looking at the games before his injuries. First 20 games a 9 with at least 4 earned runs and 20 homers….That’s not worth 25+ mil over 2-3 years. To quote others on this board….you don’t pay for what they did in the past. Not sure who said that.”
GB7,
As I said before Harang clearly had an off year last year but I don’t think the way you evaluate him is based on his statistics. Dusty Baker mismanaged that pitching staff from the start of the season. I would make the decision to trade for him or not to based on scouting.
If you want to look at Harang’s stats – look at this. On May 22 Harang made a start on normal rest. On May 25 Dusty brought Harang into a tied game in the 13th inning and harang pitched 4 innings, struck out 9 and threw 63 pitches. 63 pitches and 9 K’s in a tied game in May. Dusty is a genius. He did something similar to Cueto last year.
And then look at Harang’s performance after May 25 – that’s when he absolutely tanked.
Harang finished up the year very strong. He just turned 30 and has been one of the better pitchers in the NL for the past several seasons.
Trading Nady for Harang would be taking one player who’s value is near it’s peak and trading it for another player whose value is at it’s nadir. There’s risk involved but if Harang reverted back to form – and other than his HR/9 his peripherals weren’t horrendous – the upside would be very big.
AJ Burnett has never won a thing! He is only 11 games over .500 for his career!
Honestly? AJ Burnett has played for Florida and Toronto. It’s too bad he was hurt when Florida won the World Series. But are we going to give him a hard time for appearing on the 2001 team, when offensive luminaries Eric Owens, Luis Castillo and Alex Gonzalez caused opposing pitchers to dread the bright lights of Pro Player?
How about 2007, when he went to war with this Murderers’ Row: Zaun, Overbay, Lind, McDonald and Wells.
Doesn’t one, at some point, begin to suspect that W-L record and team success correlate strongly to team offensive production? Or is it somehow AJ’s fault that his career W Pct. is .534 with an ERA+ of 111? Doesn’t one, at some point, begin to suspect that 2009 with Andy is liable to yield lots more of these innings:
Church singled; Wright singled; Beltran singled RBI; Alou walked; Delgado popped out; Easley struck out; Schneider walked RBI; Castillo singled RBI; Reyes popped out
maybe because he’s going to be 37, is overrated, and is no longer juicing?
“Baldelli. I just have a feeling that he is going to be a tremendous asset.”
He can’t play day to day…it’s a serious condition misdiagnose or not he hasn’t had day to day stamina to be a full time option in awhile, if anyone expects 400+ ABs from him in 09′ they got to be fooling thierselves.
Must be an ego thing. Pettitte has enough money to last him a lifetime.
SJ,
If the Yankees do not want to trade away farm players for Jake Peavy or depend on Phil Hughes then in my opinion Andy Pettitte is the most logical and best option.
Of course if they traded for Peavy he’s a better option than Pettitte, but why would the Yankees trade for Peavy now when they could have used their farm assets for a better pitcher in Santana last year?
I’m a big Phil Hughes fan, I’ve even been accused of being related to him by some posters on this blog, but I thought the Yankees didn’t want to hand a rotation spot to him again knowing that Joba is on an innings limit as well.
So I should restate my opinion. The best option for the Yankees in terms of league average or better innings without trading anyone or depending on a youngster from the farm is Andy Pettitte in my opinion.
“Russell
whose Vargas??”
Veras, sorry. Clearly tired from Wendy’s.
CB, it’s only my opinion that Harang is not worth 12 mil a year for two or three years. What the Ynaks don’t need is to get a Kerry Wood or Mark Prior back for the next few years.
The Other Phil,
All points taken. To that, i guess the only thing I can say is, Andy will either accept the $10 million, or be sitting in a corner in his room rocking back and forth, repeating “I’m worth more than 10″ It doesn’t matter what a guy thinks he is worth IMO, it’s what the team thinks. And unfortunately for Andy, this is a terrible market and plenty of other options exist.
The sad part in all of this, is that we all know if he doesn’t sign for 10, he will for like 12-13, which will incense Yankee fans. All of this was worth 3 million, to a guy who only wanted to be a Yankee and money didn’t matter. 2 or 3 mill? Come on Andy.
“He was hurt, hasn’t showed that he’s healthy, as far as I’m concerned and not worth 12 mil a year.”
He pitched great at the end of last season. Very well. He was back to form by the end of the season. His aggregate statistics are hiding the trends in his performance.
well i guess it’s time cash signs glavine
Garland, while not a lefty, is younger and will demand less money. He will give you 200 innings of 4.50 ball, which is pretty much what we expect from Pettitte.
I’d take a flyer on Garland if I can’t sign Pettitte.
Hes going to be 37 years old and he stunk last year. This isnt rocket science. Hes not worth 16 million a year. But the Yankees will probably cave in like they always do. See A-Rod as my example.
SJ44
January 8th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
The Yankees have already sold 4 million tickets for next year. They don’t need Manny Ramirez to sell tickets.
He will most likely re-sign with the Dodgers. Probably within a week-10 days, unless Scott finds one of his infamour “mystery” teams.
——
SJ and CB, Im not sure that we have really sold that many tickets. My inside source is telling me that they are not that far along and the 25 mill in returned suite inventory has got them a little worried.
Now I’m not sure that Manny would impact that but I am keeping out hope that we are that Mystery team.
Whoa can Nady really land you Harang ? if he can do it before Cincy gets off the liquor.
Looks like Tuesday nights are My9 nights this year thankfully not Fridays
http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/watchdog/blog/2009/01/_tuesday_41409_ny_yankees.html
Maybe Andy will pull a Roger (He is his mentor after all).
Picture the stadium in May, middle of the 5th, Andy with a microphone in his hand, S. Waldman’s reaction…
“He will give you 200 innings of 4.50 ball, which is pretty much what we expect from Pettitte.”
No Garland will give you 4.5 ball if he’s playing in front of arguably the best defense in baseball and is pitching in the AL West.
If he was pitching in front of the Yankees defense and in the AL East it would likely be very ugly.
$16M prorated…
I wasn’t under the impression that Cincinnati would be willing to part with Harang, although, I guess, everything has a price.
Pete,
Aren’t you the only that always says not to pay for past performance. Derek Lowe is going for 12 million, why would we pay Pettite 10 million. I think 10 million is too high. Even the 16 million was wildly overpaying for a guy who inflated his stats in the NL and using PEDs, so why should we just the pay cut based on that. Why would we pay our fifth starter 10 million. Beckett is making 10 million. I just don’t get it.
Brandon,
You are crazy. Cashman literally stole Nady and Marte for Tabata and mcCutchen.
“I’d take a flyer on Garland if I can’t sign Pettitte.”
I rather take a flyer on Coke than him (seriously this doesn’t sound right)
Brandon,
No I don’t think it’s possible at all. We were just discussing it hypothetically. Alas, Jim Bowden is no longer in Cincy…
BY the way I hope people in the DR aren’t getting too attached to Cueto or Volquez. By the time Dusty gets finished with them there may not be a lot left in those arms…
“Whoa can Nady really land you Harang ? if he can do it before Cincy gets off the liquor.”
Waly Jocketty has been constantly talking to Cashman this past few days.
Don’t be shocked to see a Sox type signing if Pettitte doesn’t ink his deal for sure. The really are only looking at a one year bridge to get Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves or someone else into that role for the long term . This means Peavy and a new contract he would require is out of the question. That option was gone after the Yankees signed CC or AJ. Garland is nice, but not for multiple years. He has decent stuff, but the ceiling is much higher from the minor league guys that Garland type stats aren’t out of the question for one of them within a year. You might be looking at a Kris Benson or Mark Mulder if either can prove they can pitch and are healthy. Each costs far less than Pettitte and wouldn’t need to be depended on much more than being a fifth starter. Not sure why Arroyo’s name comes up constantly either. Logging innings is nice, but a 4.77 era in the NL and he makes 9.5 mill this year and 11 million in 2010.
“Whoa can Nady really land you Harang ?”
I doubt it. Just some rumors that the Reds are interested in Nady/Swisher. Even though Harang had a down year, he’s still one of the better pitchers in the league.
“He can’t play day to day…it’s a serious condition misdiagnose or not he hasn’t had day to day stamina to be a full time option in awhile, if anyone expects 400+ ABs from him in 09’ they got to be fooling thierselves.”
With Drew, Bay and Ellsbury I don’t see that as a major problem. Do you?
I disagree. I’m pretty sure the Sox were concerned about Lesters longevity going into last season because of the innings he put in with the playoffs the year before–he wound up leading the team in innings. Beckett went 174 innings and Wakefield 181. 4 guys don’t have to throw 200 each.
“Brandon,
You are crazy. Cashman literally stole Nady and Marte for Tabata and mcCutchen.”
And both haven’t panned out much. Marte was inconsistant (age) Nady in the AL was finally figured out and can’t get you much in a trade market right now. That is not a good trade, it’s called under selling prospects for win now, which they didn’t do.
Cincinnati’s got a few intriguing players…
But I was also under the impression that Walt Jocketty is a fairly good GM…
Pettitte showed heart last year going out to get hit when he wasn’t right. The team needed starts and he provided them. It would have been better for him personally to go on the dl and get healthy, but he didn’t.
He doesn’t owe the Yankees anything. He got more than the market value for the last two seasons, but I’m pretty sure the Yankees agreed to those terms. His value to the Yankees has nothing to do with what another team will pay him. His worth to the Yankees is only what they are willing to pay him for that spot. What the Dodgers would pony up is irrelevant in that regard. Its clear that CC was worth 100-130 mil to the Brewers, but not 160. That didn’t change when the Yankees offered that much. The amount they were willing to offer changed some (at least unofficially), but not his value.
harang would be better than andy and i love andy.aaron has made at least 28 starts in the all of the last 5 years.he has a reasonable contract.oh, and he’ll be 30 when the season starts.6 yrs younger.and he gets strikeouts,less balls to be fielded by our defense.
Ray,
Andy is the best of the known options. I agree with you.
But, it has to be at a logical number.
JMO but, anything over 10 million is not a logical number. Especially with the way the market has crashed.
Who knows what’s going to go on in SD.
New ownership is on the way and Jake Peavy is one, unhappy fella right now.
Who knows if there is a match between he and the Yankees. Probably not.
All I’m saying is, the season isn’t down to “Andy Pettitte or bust”.
If he comes back, great. If not, he is replaceable. Its not like they didn’t sign CC or Mariano can’t pitch or Arod is hurt.
He’s a good, not great pitcher, who gives you innings when healthy. I think they can find somebody to fit that profile given the resources they have available to them.
I’m new to this so hear I go….
Let ‘s think about this, Pettitte is going to be 37 this season and is most likely just going to pitch this just this year. I believe 10 million is more then a fair offer and if he feels different the Yankees should more on. They have two players (Nady and Swisher) that seem to be desired by a few teams (Nats, Reds and maybe Rockies and Angles). Why not try to move one of them for a young arm that can fill the 5th spot in the rotation. I have been looking at those team roster and being it’s hot shove time came up with a few interesting proposals.
Andy Pettite’s line last year
33 33 204.0 233 112 103 55 158 14 14 0 0 4.54
How about Nady and Veras/Ramirez/Kenndy to the Nats for John Lannan and Willie Harris
John Lannan line last year
31 31 182.0 172 89 79 72 117 9 15 0 0 3.91
Here is the other Nady and Veras/Ramirez/Kenndy to the Rockies for Greg Smith and Jeff Baker
Greg Smith line last year
32 32 190.1 169 92 88 87 111 7 16 0 0 4.16
I think the Yankees would have to throw 3 players the Nats/Rockies way but, I don’t think it a far out idea. Lannan/Smith are young back of the rotation lefties who have more ML experience then Hughes/Kennedy/Coke/Aceves. They are not top flight prospects. They are serviceable 4/5 starters. The Yankees can give Hughes and Company time to develop at triple A. Harris and Baker are good off the bench guys that the Yankees need. Plus the team getting Nady next year most likely would offer arbitration and get at least one pick. If you can get a good young arm and have extra parts to give away and get it, you should go for it. We are being too sentimentally with Andy, It’ time we moved on
“BY the way I hope people in the DR aren’t getting too attached to Cueto or Volquez. By the time Dusty gets finished with them there may not be a lot left in those arms…”
I wonder if Cincy figures this out and sells Cueto or Volquez before it happens.
Brandon:
I’d wait, say five years, before we decide if the trade was a bad deal or not–Tabata is still so young we don’t know if he’s going to pan out.
I know you like to think he will, but we just don’t.
Heck, Eric Duncan and Alan Horne were can’t miss…
Nice to see no Yankees pitchers on this list
http://www.rotoauthority.com/2009/01/the-verducci-ef.html
JoeyA: I completely agree. If there’s no market, it doesn’t matter what you think you’re worth (hello economic downturn!) My imaginary CPA has to take a job at H&R Block if that’s all that’s available.
I also agree that it will probably come down to a couple million bucks and that’s crap. I do wonder how much of that is agents v. player, but I guess it really doesn’t matter.
To other posts about Sheets, Penny, Smoltz, I’m glad the Yanks haven’t touched those guys. Burnett is the only injury-risk that I want on the team. And I agree with you that Wang is not an injury-risk. It was a freak thing that happened last year.
Chrstina the reason I don’t see the Yankees caving, meaning meeting his salary demands, is because there are other options. Pettitte in the least is on the downside of his career.
I don’t know if you necessarily want to consider it caving when you backtrack on a decision and in the process reclaim one of the best players in the game, if not the best.
Just my opinion.
Anybody think we could send the SF Giants(in desperate need of offense) Nady along with some prospects for Jon Sanchez. Hes a young lefty and seems worth the gamble. Then Swisher can be an everyday player(which I think he is) in RF. Thoughts?
“Ben Sheets and his spaghetti arm? No thanks.”
He made 31 starts last year, had a 1.15 WHIP, and would probably cost about the same, maybe even a little less than what Pettitte is holding out for.
You can choose to not post this because I’m disagreeing with you, but those are stats. Again, I understand he’s a big risk. He hasn’t been healthy over his career and had to miss big starts due to his elbow last season. That’s a red flag, for sure. But as I said, when healthy he is better than Burnett and may be worth the risk, given the Yanks’ depth of possible spot starters or better at this point.
Just noticed a crazy stat I didn’t realize. 2008 innings pitched. Had anyone noticed Ben Sheets threw 198 innings last year? Would have assumed with the injury that it was far less, but that happened towards the end of the year. Crazy, if he lasted thru until the end he might have convinced people he was finally injury free and capable of 200 innings in a year. Sort of like how well AJ’s season was last year finally for the Blue Jays.
CB,
That arguement is moot. You can argue Lowe is 3 years older from when he last pitched in the AL, and pitched the last 3 seasons in the AL West, the minor leagues of baseball. So, would you argue, Lowe is going to be a huge bust if somebody in the AL, esspecially AL East signs him?
Garland pitched for the White Sox and Angels and gives 200+ of 4.5 ball, exactly what was stated. He is younger than andy, costs less, is not an injury case.
Everyone has a knock or two against them. You could argue against any pitcher out there: Perez (wildly inconsisten), Lowe (older, pitched in the NL West) Pettitte (injured second half of last season and went 2-7) Sheets (not much needs to be said)
Let me pose this questions for our blog writers: If Andy Pettitte was not this Yankee legend of the late 90’s, would we care this much to sign him. OR, if there was a guy with Pettittes exact numbers but it wasn’t Andy, would we all talk about him this much.
All i’m trying to say is you can make a case for or against any pitcher. The case of defense behind Garland is VERY weak when compared to the arguements against the other pitchers out there.
I still think Jeff Keppinger is **expandable** due to resigning Jerry Hairston and the Reds got **other utility role** players to fill in for Keppinger.
Rebecca is Xavier Nady staying in NY ? No he isn’t, he likely is gone after this season. What was the point of this deal to nab Marte ? Com’on it wasn’t a good deal, plain and simple.
“Anybody think we could send the SF Giants(in desperate need of offense) Nady along with some prospects for Jon Sanchez. Hes a young lefty and seems worth the gamble. Then Swisher can be an everyday player(which I think he is) in RF. Thoughts?”
I’m hoping. We need to get some value to off set the botched trade.
gayle
SO that means it will rain every Tuesday night.
Better than Friday nights. It seemed every my9 game it rained.
Brandon: Gonna agree to disagree here.
I am always on the side of the players when it comes to money, its the owners fault its gotten out of control. Petitte though is just simply being stupid and a jerk. He owes the Yankees, 10 million is a good deal for 1 yr, for a aging,not that great pitcher. Yes he was hurt last yr, and who says he wont be hurt again this year, i like the innings he will provide most likely but he isn’t worth more then 10 million a year. They will get someone if it isn’t Petitte,maybe hughes,kennedy,coke,aceves we shall see.
second half pettitte?
i believe that pitchers are worth more based on their second half stats. especially for a team that consistently is a playoff contender. andy pettite has been a scary second half pitcher.
for his career, he’s been 112-51 with a 3.64ERA in the second half in a span of 203 games.
here’s the breakdown for seasons 2002-2007 in the second half without his injury year in 04:
2002 11-4 2.80ERA
2003 10-2 3.24
2005 11-2 1.69
2006 7-4 2.80
2007 11-3 3.84ERA
with those numbers, $16 million is justifiable to me, along with his postseason experience.
in 2008, he finished with a 4-7 record and a 5.35ERA, losing those 7 games in the last 9 decisions.
it’s pretty crazy to think he won’t take a pay cut after admitting to taking HGH and putting up those numbers last season. personally, i think the yankees should have offered him $8 million. i love the guy, but based on a relative value, even $10 million for him is a lot.
I wish people could go back to last season when Nady was one of the premier corner Ofers on the market and Marte pretty much WAS the reliever market. We got both of them for two guys nobody outside the Yankee org. has ever heard of. Yea Tabata has upside, but he was 20 years old. God knows what he will become by 25 or 26. and McCutchen is, well, enough said.
Brandon, I think Sanchez has a lot of potential but I’m not sure if dropping him into the toughest division in baseball from the weakest is really a good idea for the Yanks this year. He absolutely could be worth the risk though.
Brandon,
That wasn’t a bad trade. Take out the 12 days of work after Marte was used for 46 pitches in Texas and he was fine.
Nady played very well until the last two weeks of the season. The guy is a solid player. Not an all star. Just a solid player.
He got a lot of big hits for the Yankees in his short time with them.
Tabata is a question mark. Perhaps it will work out for him, perhaps not.
Either way, he’s two years, at the very least, from being in the majors.
At that time, the Yankee OF could include Austin Jackson and Matt Holliday. Who knows if he would have cracked that group.
They have better arms in the organization than McCutcheon, whom has a chance to be a good, back of the rotation starter for the Pirates.
That trade has no long term effects on the Yankees.
what kind of SP could the Yankees get for Nady or Swish ? The Yankees should just meet Any in the middle,he will get them 10 -12 W’s & from a #5 that’s a bonus. you don’t hear(in print) much from his supposed buddy’s on the team,MO,Jeter,Posada…you think the would lobby for Andy for one more year
I still feel like Andy is going to come back and take the deal, but he’s going to need an ego sweetener in it. Either an extra million or an option year with a low cost buy out.
I think he’s made such a stink of this that he’s too prideful to take the 10 million and be okay with it.
If he thinks he’s getting AJ money for a year though his Yankee career is over.
What I do dispute is that the fans in NY will turn on him. I, for one, won’t be all bent out of shape if he thinks he’s worth more than 10 million and refuses to play for less.
That’s his right. He won’t be ruining our season because the front office has plenty of time and options to find a veteran replacement.
I like the idea of selling off Nady for a veteran starter.
While Andy is the perfect fit for this team, there’s other ways to fill his slot.
The one thing this team cannot do is move Joba to #4 hole and put another rookie in at #5.
It will sink the season again and if one of the veterans in the rotation go down, we’re back to last season.
I hope there’s a way to keep Andy since he’s not a long term commitment and won’t block up the rotation, but I also think the Yankees have a right to toe the line with him just as much as he has a right to feel he’s worth more.
If he wants to go out like this, it’s sad, but I don’t think it does anything to ruin his reputation as a Yankee.
Bernie refused to take what he deemed were scraps from Cashman and the Yankees and held his ground and he’s still beloved.
If Pettitte thinks 10 million was an insult and scraps it’s his right. He earned his “quote” and if he doesn’t think he should take such a pay cut he’s the one who has to live with it.
I’m starting to wonder if he really wants to play anymore or not.
“Garland pitched for the White Sox and Angels and gives 200+ of 4.5 ball, exactly what was stated. He is younger than andy, costs less, is not an injury case.”
No not at all. If you look at Garland’s peripherals and if you control for the defense playing behind him you’ll see that he is a terrible pitcher who just happens to have played in front of good teams and in weak hitting divisions.
Lowe is absolutely nothing like Garland. If you control for his defense and league he comes out looking like an outstanding pitcher.
There’s simply no comparison between them. Garland is awful. He doesn’t miss bats and at the same time doesn’t generate enough ground balls to compensate for that. His peripherals are bad in turn.
He’s terrible.
Baldelli to Boston and Hoffman to Brewers are final.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090107&content_id=3736388&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp
Vincent, It’s not like we’re talking about him as our # 3 SP he has that potential but in reality all we need is for him to be a good #4 or 5. If he can’t do that then he doesn’t belong in the league, his BABIP was high last season, the walks were a bit high but his stuff is great and if he doesn’t pan out as a SP he handcuffs LHBs.
Vincent, It’s not like we’re talking about him as our # 3 SP he has that potential but in reality all we need is for him to be a good #4 or 5. If he can’t do that then he doesn’t belong in the league, his BABIP was high last season, the walks were a bit high but his stuff is great and if he doesn’t pan out as a SP he handcuffs LHBs.
“One of the things I don’t understand about your argument is the notion that the yankees are “forcing” him to do anything.
They’re not forcing him to anything at all. He’s an adult and a free agent and as such is able to make any choice he wants.”
CB, I believe I said “try to force”, not “force”, which is different. The use of the phrase “try to force” was metaphorical. No use of actual force was contemplated. Perhaps I should have used the phrase “take advantage of” instead of “try to force”, as I think the former comes closer to my meaning.
My metaphor was in reaction to what I take to be the SJ44 line of argument, which is, since Andy only wants to play for the Yanks, they should pay him as little as possible and the consequent sum is what Andy is “worth”. (SJ44 also claims that Andy has shopped around furiously and hasn’t found anything, but I haven’t bought that claim yet.)
My view is if that’s so, the Yanks should not let their attempts to take advantage of Andy’s desire to pitch in New York (if in fact they are trying to do that which I certainly don’t know) get in the way of signing a player who IMO would be very advantageous to them and at the end of the day be worth more than $10MM to them. I think Andy between $10MM and $13MM is at the best price point remaining of the free agent pitchers (i.e., combining talent and price). It’s just my opinion, there’s no independent measure of “worth”.
As to what Andy is actually worth, we don’t know. He hasn’t signed anything yet. And, there is a concept of signing at a discount to worth. If Andy is worth X to the market, but it is worth Y to Andy to pitch in New York, then maybe the Yanks can sign him for somewhere between X and X-Y, but his worth is X, not X-Y.
Story on Hoffman
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090108&content_id=3736591&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp
why won’t pettite just take that mysterious 3 year 36 million dollar deal he has on the table. Why did everyone stop mentioning that. Don;t let him get off the hook.
why won’t pettite just take that mysterious 3 year 36 million dollar deal he has on the table. Why did everyone stop mentioning that. Don;t let him get off the hook.
Brandon,
You act as if Tabata is a sure thing. He isn’t.
One thing all of us on here are guilty of doing is overvaluing prospects.
Tabata’s rep fell big time last year. He’s a young kid and hopefully he will figure it out.
But, let’s be serious. He’s not Cameron Maybin, Jason Haywood, or even Austin Jackson. He’s got some limitations.
As far as Nady, he played very well for the Yankees last year.
If he doesn’t get traded, he will probably play well again this year.
If he does get dealt, shouldn’t we who the Yankees get back in return before deciding whether or not its a good trade?
What if Nady brings back a young arm the Yankees can plug into the rotation. One could then argue, the Yankees did quite well in the transaction.
do people forget how much 10 million is? Why not offer him a normal salary of 50,000.
Just saw this on KansasCity.com:
Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?
By Chris Ruddick, Sports Network
Wed, Jan. 07, 2009 12:43 PM
“…Speaking of ghosts from performance enhancing drugs past, we have Andy Pettitte, who recently turned down the Yankees’ $10 million offer. This guy has some nerve. Pettitte, of course, is the same guy who picked up a $16 million option last season right before the Mitchell Report came out. The same report he told the Yankees he was not going to be a part of, when in essence he was basically one of the guys featured on the cover.
The Yankees stood behind him then and probably always will, even though he lied not once but twice with regard to the whole situation. Actually, he was only caught in a lie twice, who knows how many times he really lied?
If I am Brian Cashman, my next offer to him is $5 million. Or better yet, offer him nothing. Instead, make him pay back some of that money he stole from them last year. Maybe they could make him pay for CC Sabathia’s meals this season.
By the end of the year he should be even.
Pettitte is a joke. If you don’t believe me, just listen to his comments from late in 2008.
“Obviously anyone else would say, ‘I’ll go wherever I want to,’ because people want to try to get the most money,” Pettitte told the New York Times late in the season. “But, I mean, I’m not going anywhere, you know what I’m saying? The Yankees know me enough, it’s not like I’m going to hold out. I guess if I had spent all my money or whatever, it might be different. But it’s not about that, really, anymore.”
Pettitte needs to go away. Go home to Texas and stare at the wall with your good buddy Roger Clemens, and the two of you can call Romero and laugh at him for getting caught.
Ugh.”
Don’t have time to read all the comments, so my apologies if someone has already mentioned this, but how about: Nady, Edwar and a lower tier prospect of Cincy’s choice for Harang and Keppinger? Kepp is still a Red, right?
yankeesfan23: you’re preaching to the choir here. I love Andy, but there has to be a limit to how long the Yankees’ offer stays open while he waits for competing offers from other teams (that actually exist).
CB,
So I’ll ask you a question: Do you put more weight on the defense behind a pitcher or the league he pitched in?
I’m not going to get into a stat war, but, IMO, the fact that Garland is younger, entering age 30 and has spent his whole career in the AL, added to the fact that Lowe spent the last 3 years, age 33-35, in the NL West bears greater significance than the defense behind them.
Gammons. The quintessential “homer” and the prototypical hoot.
http://audio.weei.com/m/audio/21737852/peter_gammons_mlb_analyst.htm?pageid=967
SJ no offense but they under sold a 20 yr. old for 3 OF platoon player, yes he got some big hits but he’s likely 1 and done and that likely will be the best season of his career, SO/BB for Nady don’t bode well, I’d say Swisher is the better between him and X even w/ a horrible 2008 season. Marte is now in the AL where he will need to improve on his location and last season he nearly was Armando Benitez like in most big spots. That does not sound like a good trade as much as I respect Cashman and co. this was the definition of a quick fix, we could have got something better, maybe even younger for Tabata if they were going that route.
“Kepp is still a Red, right?”
Yep.
Thurm – sounds like some good midwestern common sense to me.
Brandon,
It comes down to: 2 guys that can contribute now on a productive level vs. 2 guys that won’t see an MLB diamond until @ least 2011, both of which are in positions we currently have better prospects in (A Jax and our plethera of pitchers)
Wave,
The Yankees aren’t taking advantage of Pettitte’s desire to pitch in NY with a lowball offer. His offer is in line, in fact exceeds, similar offers to similar pitchers in the marketplace.
That’s what you fail to understand in this entire discussion.
The Yankees aren’t taking advantage of him. They are paying what he value is right now.
If he wants more money, than why hasn’t another team stepped up with an offer?
The Hendricks Brothers have shopped for another offer all winter. That’s what an agents job is, to find offers.
They don’t have any.
As other posters have pointed out, why hasn’t he taken the “mystery” 3/36 offer? If that offer was legitimate, he would have leverage with the Yankees to ask for more money.
Obviously its not or: 1. He would have taken it or 2. The Yankees would have to offer him more money.
You are under the assumption that Andy and his agents have sat around all winter while the Yankees have “lowballed” him.
That simply isn’t the case.
This is where the rubber meets the road.
We can debate ad nauseum on the subject. If he can find a better offer, then he has options. If not, its either the Yankees, or leave 10 million on the table and retire.
The ball is in his court until the Yankees pull the offer and move on.
This is were the Captain should step in and get this deal done. If DJ steps in, it would get done.
As a matter of fact I’m sure Jeter could double up and get us someone else too.
also, in re: the original topic, I do think the two sides (Andy & Yanks) meeting at $12MM would be a decent face saving gesture on both ends. We know what Andy is logically worth, and I think would all agree that it’s somewhere around 10-11, but Pete does make an important point in illustrating how Andy’s thinking differs from the Yankees’ and ours.
I may be in the minority here, but I’d much rather the Yankees fill the hole that unarguably does exist in the back of the rotation without having to give up any talent in the process. Don’t break negotiations off with Andy, make every attempt to sign him before trading Nady or Swisher for a starter. Because of the difference in current value and terms of contracts, the Yankees should not even consider trading Swisher, but I for one would ideally like to see Nady remain too.
Brandon, I’ll see you later tonight? Same time and place as usual. Love, Jose.
“This is were the Captain should step in and get this deal done. If DJ steps in, it would get done.”
Jeter better start worrying about his deal when his contract is up. The Yankees have shown that sentimentality has no place in their dealings. Jeter’s contract negotiations should be interesting.
Please! Don’t canonize the Yankee Front Office becuase they “stood behind Andy” during his steriod crisis. Pettitte was coming off an excellent 2007 season where he pitched 215 innings, went 15-9 with a respectable 4.05 ERA and was one of the stable starters on a mediocre Yankee staff. Do you think if Andy had the same stats as last year, that the Yankees wouldn’t have cut him loose in 2008? Its a business, Folks!
In addition, the Yankee Front Office wanted to hold on to Hughes and IPK so they were desperate for Andy to come back in 2008 so they could avoid the cost of signing Johan Santana – one of their biggest mistakes since not signing Carlos Beltran.
I’ve heard a few Sports Talk Shows speculate that Andy is turning down the 1 Yr/$10 Mil because he’s actually seeking 2 years and maybe $18 Mil.
If Cashman has so much confidence in the pitching prospects (as he did in 2008), then NOW is the time to replace a Pettitte with Hughes/Aceves/Kennedy instead of last year’s debacle in going with 60% of their starters as unproven rookies!
Thurm
January 8th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Just saw this on KansasCity.com:
Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?
By Chris Ruddick, Sports Network
Wed, Jan. 07, 2009 12:43 PM
————————————————————
Right. You expected better from a Kansas city internet rag? They have enough issues worrying about their own teams. The idiot that wrote this has been hanging around steers so long that he’s developed hoof and mouth desease.
As my mom just reminded me, Pettitte is only going down hill. Mom always knows best.
We are witnessing a total FA market crash, and the Yankees can go out and get all the pitching depth they need for cheap. So what is the point of signing Pettitte?
He’s great and I appreciate what he’s done for the Yanks but why doesn’t he expand his horizons a little? Or go join Torre? At this point, i don’t think that Pettitte is any more stable then the FA’s and prospects that would fill the role. So why not get some good FAs or give some kids a shot?
And speaking of the FA market crash, it really smells. Is anyone really buying this whole disposable income argument?
Hey I’m tryin’ to fix this Gaza mess before the WBC
gimme a break
I’ve come to the realization that the deal won’t get done at 12 as some have suggested. Andy wants 16 if the Newsday article is correct. He isn’t going to come back for ‘only’ $12.
“Do you put more weight on the defense behind a pitcher or the league he pitched in?”
They both matter and you can assess the impact of both. It’s really not that complicated either.
This is all I can say. By the best measure out there, controlling for defense, league and ball park John Garland’s true adjusted ERA last season was 5.43. 5.43. He was roughly 18% worse than a league average pitcher last year.
So he’s not an “innings eater” unless you mean that it’s ok to have a far below average pitcher throw innings for the yankees when they are in a tight pennant race. Of the 6 years he’s pitched Garland has been above average only twice. And that was by 2% and 10%. The past two years he’s been well below average.
Lowe’s adjusted ERA last year was 2.93. 2.93. He was 32% better than league average.
Garland – 5.34. Lowe – 2.93. Lowe was 55% better than Garland last year. That is an enormous difference – well past any error in the statistics could possibly explain and way past any difference in league.
Lowe has been well above average in nearly every year of his career.
5.34 vs. 2.93. Who cares if Garland is younger – he’s not even close to as good. Garland is a below average pitcher who is durable. That’s what he is.
“I’ve come to the realization that the deal won’t get done at 12 as some have suggested. Andy wants 16 if the Newsday article is correct. He isn’t going to come back for ‘only’ $12.”
If you are right, jennifer, then Andy’s days as a Yankee are over because they aren’t paying him $16mil. My suggestion of $12mil was even a stretch it appears.
Even if Baldelli DOES get 400 ABs, his career OPS+ is 102. He doesn’t scare me.
“Brandon, I’ll see you later tonight? Same time and place as usual. Love, Jose.”
Who taught you to speak english Jose
“Garland is a below average pitcher who is durable. That’s what he is.”
If Garland could somehow channel 2005 Garland, he’d be worth a look. Unfortunately, he hasn’t been 2005 Garland since….2005.
The question is, how long are the Yankees going to wait for Andy to come around? They’re not going to go into ST with the offer on the table, are they?
Brandon,
What has Tabata done so far? His speed is gone since he has filled out. His OF play dropped dramatically last year.
I watched him play a bunch of times last year. He was BAD in the OF. It wasn’t pretty.
He has no power and barely hit .230 for most of the AA season.
Could he turn it around? Sure. He’s young enough to do so.
He could also be a guy who just never gets over the hump.
Either way, he is years from the majors right now. That’s a lifetime to a team like the Yankees.
He’s no longer an A List propsect. Austin Jackson passed him, and that’s why he stayed and they traded Tabata.
Marte pitched in the AL before. He pitched well for the Yankees until they blew him out in Texas. He will pitch better this year because they won’t have to blow him out like they did last year.
Nady has had more success than Tabata. If they can spin him off into something else, so be it. If not, he will be a solid contributor to the team.
You can’t overvalue prospects.
For a prospect to make it with the Yankees, he’s going to have to really be good. Jeter, Joba, Mariano good. If not, they will always spin their excess talent to upgrade their parent club with ML players.
That’s how they roll because they are trying to win the WS every year.
supposedly pedro was offer 1year 7million from and american league team and he rejected it were the hell does pedro think hes going to get more then that
GB: How is it that one of the best pitchers in the NL over the last 4-5 years, at age 30, is not worth $12 million a year? This isn’t 1950.
“I’ve come to the realization that the deal won’t get done at 12 as some have suggested. Andy wants 16 if the Newsday article is correct. He isn’t going to come back for ‘only’ $12.”
Yikes. If that’s the case then a deal will definitely never get done. I still hope they can find the stability they’re looking for without having to trade Nady or Swisher, though. But I’d have a hard time saying no to Harang for Nady.
“Even if Baldelli DOES get 400 ABs, his career OPS+ is 102. He doesn’t scare me.”
Agreed. Compare the Yanks moves (CC, AJ, Tex) to the Sawx moves (Penny, Smoltz, Baldelli). Not even worth comparing.
It amuses me how some folks here see the Sawx make a move and then chime in with “we should have gotten him!!!!!”
“The question is, how long are the Yankees going to wait for Andy to come around? They’re not going to go into ST with the offer on the table, are they?”
My guess is not much longer. I agree with SJ44 that they should give Andy until this Sunday and then make other plans.
“Even if Baldelli DOES get 400 ABs, his career OPS+ is 102. He doesn’t scare me.”
It may not scare you but if Baldelli did that in CF with good defense he’d be a very valuable player.
An OPS+ of 102 is good for a solid defensive CF. That’s way above average for CF as the average CF is way below a 100 OPS+ player.
BJ Upton had an OPS+ of 107 last year. Torii Hunter 110. Everyone loves Grady Sizemore and rightfully so – he only had an OPS+ of 128 in what was the best year of his career.
If Andy is looking for 16 million, he might as well retire.
He has no shot at getting anywhere near that from anybody unless he wants to get 16 million over 2 years.
His ego is getting in the way of common sense on this one.
Hopefully, common sense ends up prevailing or he is going to be one unhappy camper.
I was listening to the ESPN Baseball Podcast and despite all of our moves, they still say that the Yankees will finish 3rd in the AL East behind TB and BOS. I find this mind boggling. Call me a cynic, but I don’t see TB having the same luck they had last year next season. Secondly, BOS’s lineup leaves a bit to be desired. They’ve got some unknowns there. IMO, our moves this off season put us #1 in the East.
what are the other plans ???
“supposedly pedro was offer 1year 7million from and american league team and he rejected it were the hell does pedro think hes going to get more then that”
Could be Pedro doesn’t want to return to the AL. Pedro’s stuff isn’t what it was when he was dominating the league, maybe he’s focused on facing lineups with a guaranteed soft spot as opposed to dealing with 9-deep hitting teams. Also, maybe it was the Yankees who offered 1 year $7 million.
its just Pedro being Pedro !
You really can’t judge the Nady/Marte trade for at least another few years. If Tabata meets his potential and becomes a good to great major league player then the trade was bad. If Tabata is a bust then the trade was good.
Tabata has all the potential in the world and he showed a ton of improvement after the trade. I still think his future is very bright.
Now signing Manny would crush Boston’s spirits
Anyone who still considers Yankees third to Tampa and Boston is dellusional. One thing, the Yankees pitching IS better, defense is upgraded, etc and our injured players will be back. Before serious injuries last year, at the all-star break, we were 3 games out of first. Tampa’s pitching didnt suffer any injuries, and their hitting was good minus one month. They will NOT be that lucky this year.
In boston’s case, they are all injuries waiting to happen. Ortiz doesnt know how he will be, Lowell, Beckett, Dice-K (tired arm), Smoltz off injury, Penny off injury. ESPN is not going to ever give the Yankees any credit so nothing they say holds any credibility.
pedro will get eaten alive in the a.l. the humiliation isnt worth the $7M. he has to get into the nl central or west. he has nothing left, whoever signs him will regret it.
Brandon- Marte might bounce back and be a rock in the pen for the next few years and Tabata might just be a decent ML player. Its a toss up until A)Tabata is an all-star or B)Tabata fails to make it to the show. Time will tell.
I hate to break it to you guys but Tampa isn’t going anywhere and a full year of David Price plus Burrell at DH makes them better than last year. The Yanks WILL compete for the AL East title, but its not going to be handed to them.
“The Yankees aren’t taking advantage of Pettitte’s desire to pitch in NY with a lowball offer. His offer is in line, in fact exceeds, similar offers to similar pitchers in the marketplace.
That’s what you fail to understand in this entire discussion.”
SJ44, I haven’t failed to understand a single argument in what has become an interminable boring argument. I don’t agree with you, but I understand you.
Other than your assertions, I have seen no reports that Andy has seriously shopped himself around to multiple teams this winter. He has publicly at least been quite consistent saying he wants to come back to New York and doesn’t want to pitch elsewhere. You yourself have said on multiple occasions that, since that’s what Andy wants, he should take what the Yanks have offered.
There are no comparables to Andy who have signed yet, so your interminable going on about similar pitchers is unfounded. Farnsworth got 9.5MM for two years. You don’t think Andy’s more than twice as valuable as Farnsworth? I think Dempster’s the closest comparable. He had a lot better 2008 than Andy, but Andy had a better 2007 and 2006. Dempster got $12MM and a multi-year deal escalating up from there. Johnson got $8MM, but he’s a lot older and far from a lock to give you 200 innings. Lowe turned down $13MM (approximately) a year for 3 years. Andy’s not much worse than Lowe.
In 2008, he was a major league average starter. In 2006 and 2007 he was much better than average. You don’t think an average major league starter, who has a good chance to be significantly better than average, and who can give you 200 plus innings, is worth $10MM or more? Give me a break. Who else can the Yanks get who is better? This Jake Peavy thing is ridiculous.
OK, I’m done. I’m a Pettitte fan and think the Yanks will be the losers in this if they don’t sign him. Abuse me and tell me how much more you are plugged in to the Yanks’ front office, and how I fail to understand things. But I am right.
I don’t want to repeat myself too much from this same topic yesterday, so I’ll just reiterate my hope that some kind of common ground can be found. It makes too much sense for both the Yankees and Andy not to work this out.
Hey Brian Cashman, if you need help thinking up a creative way to sweeten the offer, call me:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/92472245@N00/3180546378/
I’m always humored by ESPN’s talking heads believing every Yankee question mark is answered in the negative. While every Red Sox question mark will be answered in the affirmative.
John Smoltz and Brad Penny will be great. CC and AJ will struggle.
Ortiz and Lowell will bounce back with healthy seasons. Posada and Matsui will not.
Thankfully, you have to play the game, making their opinions worthless.
ham fighters . .Pedro isn’t that bad. . I wouldn’t mind giving him a nice 1 year deal. espically if the Pettite saga fails !
As an aside, I think the yankees should look into signing another free agent player, particularly if Pettitte doesn’t come back as they could get a very good value.
Hear me out on this. Right now one of the hold ups for a number of players getting signed is that they will cost money and a draft pick.
So part of why teams aren’t thrilled about Ben Sheets is his healthy concerns AND the fact that you would lose a 1st round draft pick.
Teams might be willing to gamble on SHeets on a 1-2 year contract. But if he signs a 1 year deal let’s say and gets hurt that’s a serious blow for many teams as they’ve lost their first round pick.
The same is happening for Juan Cruz, Varitek and Orlando Cabrera. Olney wrote about this in his blog this morning.
However, for the yankees there’s a potential market inefficiency they can take advantage of here.
The yankees have already lost their round 1, 2 and 3 picks for Tex, CC, and AJ.
So signing someone like Sheets would be relatively less costly for the yankees than for other teams. Same for Cruz. It would only cost them a 4th round pick compared to a 1st or 2nd for every other team.
I’m not sure on this – but I wonder if the yankees could get a good deal on one of those players given this relative market inefficiency.
i saw tabata play several games last season at trenton. (i saw one of his benchings, it wasnt pretty). im with sj here, no loss with that guy. he may eventually put it together but he didnt show me anything in the field or at the plate. he may have physical skills but he doesnt have any great baseball skill that i could see. i know 5 or 6 games isnt alot, but i was unimpressed with his play, then add in the ‘problems’ (lack of effort) and you have a guy who’s going nowhere imo.
Im sure the Yanks will revist the idea of Sheets . .once this Pettite BS ends .
Andy is no longer worth 10 mil a season. Especially given his second half and age. He can’t look at Burnett and be jealous, A.J. is 5 years younger and had 230 K’s last season.
CB,
Why dont the Yanks make a play for Lowe considering the lack of big offers?
Heck. 3/38 might get it done.
His current “value” is 3/36. That seems like a great deal to me.
re: Lowe
I suppose he would demand a NTC which might be an issue. They may need to move on of their guys at some point to make room for a youngster.
but the money seems great.
Ok wave, whatever you say.
Find me one offer Andy Pettitte has on the table right now.
He has been a FA for months. Do you honestly believe his agents haven’t shopped him? If you do, nothing can be done to change your mind.
He wants 16 million bucks according to Newsday. Let’s see how close he comes to that number since he has rejected the Yankee offer.
I’ve shown you his comparables. You just want to reject them.
That’s ok. No skin off my back.
Now, let’s see how close he comes to getting 16 million dollars (his price) to pitch this year.
My guess is, if he comes back at all, his AAV will be under 10 million dollars.
Let’s see what happens.
another thing regarding Pettitte…
I think it’s possible other teams aren’t bothering to make offers to Andy because they believe he will come back to the Yanks.
However, if the Yanks get another pitcher and declare themselves out of the running for Andy, it’s possible he’ll get some offers.
At this point, other teams may feel the Hendricks Bros would simply be using them to raise the Yankees price.
CB,
That’s a great point. Re: Sheets, his medicals must be pretty bad because the Yankees have always liked him as a pitcher.
I think there are some deals out there and I’m sure they are pursuing them right now.
A lot of good players are going to be looking for work in January. I’m sure they will find a replacement for Pettitte, should an agreement not be reached.
BD,
In theory they could but signing Lowe would likely clog up the rotation and really block the pathway for Hughes to contribute and brackman down the line.
But at this point Lowe would only cost them a 4th round pick in addition to the money.
I also think Atlanta will get in on Lowe now that Smoltz is gone. I think Lowe will get his 4 year deal.
If Andy leaves however I wonder if it doesn’t make sense to make Sheets a 1 year 10-12M offer and see if he takes it. Even if he gets hurt and only throws 150 innings it’s not that big a loss on a one year deal. Then they’d just slot hughes in there which is what they’d likely do anyway.
Just a thought. I wouldn’t go crazy to sign Sheets. But at this point I think it might be that the only teams that are going to have serious interest in Sheets are teams that have already signed Type A free agents and the Brewers. Those are the only teams for which signing Sheets wouldn’t cost a 1st round pick. That’s a very small group of teams.
Don’t mean to reopen the sheets discussion. It more speaks to the point that it has grown “cheaper” for the yankees to sign free agents than it has for other clubs.
So if the Yankees re-sign Pettitte, what are the chances of them still trading either Nady or Swisher?
Boston Dave,
That could be. We are about to find out though.
Its a tough market out there. Its going to be interesting to see what deals are there for him.
I don’t think they are going to approach anything close to what he’s looking for.
I think this is the pitching version of Bobby Abreu. Good player but, with enough negatives that will cause teams not to pay above market value for him.
I find the Boston pundits interesting because they keep acting like Boston of 2009 w/o Manny is the same as Boston of 2008 w/ Manny! No Way! Bay/Drew are not Manny. Ortiz is probably done for as well. I see Boston vying for 4th with Toronto.
Now Tampa is for real as long as they stay healthy. They have weaknesses. They remind me of Detroit a few years ago. Young Pitching having career years and then splat! I think it is a different mindset from who would believe we are here to we are expected to be here.
I believe as long as the Yankee pitching stays relatively healthy the Yanks will prevail. I believe NYY has more margin for error than Tampa.
What is Andy paying his agents for if not to try to get him a better offer – even if it’s only to drive up the price for the Yankees? Not one team in the MLB wants to make the Yankees pay more money for Andy?
Hal said that they were not happy with what Pettitte’s agent asked for. To me that seems like he was asking for $14m+. I don’t think he would of said that if Pettitte was just asking for $12m..$2m more. You would think if it was that small amount they would of agreed to a deal already. I would think the Yanks would add another $1m or $2m..but there is no way that they will pay him more then that. I would give him to the end of the week and then move on. If he didn’t accept $10m 2 months ago why would he take it now?!…
SJ44,
no doubt he will struggle to beat the Yankees offer. I just find it hard to believe that there aren’t other teams interested in him. If the Yankees pass on him, I expect some offers to roll in.
He may be able to match the Yankees 1yr/10M offer once things settle but he’s probably got the best offer (in terms of money and opportunity) on the table right now. Hope he takes it.
Neil
January 8th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Gammons. The quintessential “homer” and the prototypical hoot.
http://audio.weei.com/m/audio/21737852/peter_gammons_mlb_analyst.htm?pageid=967
———-
Listening to Gammons bitterness is nauseating. The fact that he picks the Yankees is just his way of hoping they fail so he can laugh last.
He is so angry when discussing the Tex deal and compares Penny to Burnett?
This makes me think of my favorite line of the off season when Gammons was talking on ESPN about the yanks being in on AJ right after they signed CC.
My 11 yr old daughter said unsolicited “Daddy, that man looks like he doesn’t want to be there”
CB,
If they could sign Lowe without giving him a NTC, I think that would make some sense (considering his current going rate of 12M/yr).
They could then move him once somebody is ready to take his place.
Another thing regarding Sheets, would the Yanks get a first round pick in return for him if he left for FA in 2010?
Considering the Yanks situation with FA this offseason, they could sign a guy for 1yr, lose just a 4th rounder, and then get a 1st rounder back (if Sheets pitches comparably to the past).
I wonder! Is it even remotely possible that Andy and the Yankees have reached a verbal tentative agreement? Could they simply be leaving it unannounced to muddy the FA waters? I know that isn’t likely but could that be a maybe? I just don’t believe there is another good option for the Yanks, the one year deal could be worth lots of dollars as opposed to a longer contract. I mean everyone knows the Yanks should acquire another starter but then again maybe not. Or is there a rule they have to announce?
CB – I am with you about Sheets and I posted this a few days ago.
My assumption (simply a guess) is that Sheets will start out the year relatively healthy (assuming the MRI does not say his arm is being held together by dental floss). He is a far superior pitcher to Pettite when healthy.
So, you sign Sheets and he starts the year in the rotation and Hughes et al start the year in SWB. If Sheets gives you 150 innings that is incredible. Even if he gives you 100 innings and is toast by the all star break, you then have Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves, Coke, Horne, Kontos, Milton (I think we signed him at some point), Mitre (off suspension) to come in and take the reigns. This allows Hughes several more months of seasoning.
Also, if Sheets is healthy around playoff time imagine the problem of CC, Burnett, Wang, Joba, Sheets, Hughes to choose from.
WOW!!!
I’m sure the Yanks feel they already offered Pettite the $1M to $2M more and don’t want to add more.
If Pettite doesn’t have a $10M offer, then he may stay trapped in semi-retirement. The Yanks could pull a Clemens on him & bring him back in July for ½ a season and help his arm and lower his cap hit. I think that amount of time will allow some previews to happen for Joba/IPK/Hughes/Ace. Then he comes in on a high note.
I truly look for Manny to sign a 2 yr contract with NYY!!!
Best thing for the Yankees and Andy is somebody blinks. My guess is they both do.
BD,
JMO but, I think his offers will fall in the 8 million per year range.
I don’t even see Houston paying a premium for him right now because they are in cost cutting mode.
I think if he had better offers out there, they would have materialized by now.
That what makes this entire game of chicken so interesting. Unlike previous Yankee regimes, the Hal/Cash combo doesn’t seem interested in bidding against themselves here.
That may mean Andy is going to have to sell himself to the highest bidder. Something he said he had no interest in doing as late as early October.
SJ44-
Just to be clear. I never said sign Andy for $16MM. If he holds to that, then I agree there are other alternatives. All I’ve said is that I think he could get $10MM or more if he chose to actually put himself on the open market, which I don’t believe he has done yet, and that I think he would be worth it to the Yanks to sign him between $10MM and $13MM for one year if Andy would agree to that.
And, you’re the one who has constantly put things personally. I’ve disagreed but haven’t accused you of “failing to understand” anything.
SJ,
I was thinking the Sox might take a 1 year flier on Sheets. I’d think they’d be very interested in Cruz also.
But for any team even if you can get a guy on a one year deal, giving up a 1st round pick is expensive. On a one year deal you can’t even amortize the cost of the pick over several years of performance.
1 year deals are great for the flexibility and bad in terms of the cost of a 1st round pick. This is particularly true of a guy like sheets – you can’t be certain on the other end that you’d get back a round 1 pick as he could get hurt.
I’d have to think this entered into the boston thinking to not even bid on sheets. How much? Not sure. But Boston values draft picks a lot.
On the flip side it’ll only cost the yankees a 4th round pick (and unbelievable amounts of scorn from the rest of baseball…)
But if they move on from Pettitte I think I’d just take the $10M and offer it to sheets for a year. Heck I’d even guarantee sheets that I wouldn’t offer him arbitration at the end of next season so he could maximize his value on the market next season as then he wouldn’t cost a draft pick.
Sheets seems like a very risky proposition right now. I almost think it would make sense, if they wanted to go that route, to have 6 starters.
CC, Wang, AJ would always go on regular rest. Joba, Sheets, and someone else would rotate for the final 2 spots to keep them fresh.
I just can’t see Sheets giving them much considering what SJ said about his current health.
if we sign sheets it woulnt be that bad if u slot him in as a number 4 starter either cuz hell probably gibe u 180iining and if hreally healthy 200+ ill give him a 2year deal
regarding some of the discussion earlier in the post about whether Andy’s agents actually have been agressively shopping him all winter, I don’t see how/why it would be possible or logical for them not to be shopping him. We’ve all heard reports from various writers over the past month or so about possible interest and/or matches for Andy with the Dodgers, Rangers, even teams like the Cards and Sux iirc. These reports obviously had to come from Andy’s agents, and I guess there’s a chance they could be false rumors designed to pressure the Yanks into meeting their demands. But if they were going to bother making up these rumors, why wouldnt they also bother calling the teams mentioned in them, knowing they were at an impasse with the Yanks? It just makes no sense for them to not have looked elsewhere.
SJ44,
I think you’re probably right… (8M for Andy).
I don’t think there is anybody out there who really thinks Andy would get more than 10M. That said, Andy needs to act fast if he wants the best deal. His agents would be doing him a disservice if they tell him to pass.
I know people on this blog are, on the whole, a little peeved with Pettitte, but I really want him back.
What does it say about your rotation that Andy Pettitte is your #4 or #5?
That’s an indication of a good rotation.
Again CB I like your thoughts! I too like Sheets. I personally like Sheets & Andy, with Andy coming back in June/July time frame.
CB: Baldelli may well be a valuable CF IF he can stay on the field. However, his health is still a big question mark and, even healthy, he’s not exactly an offensive powerhouse. I’m not saying he isn’t a good pickup for the RS, but he’s not someone Yankees fans should stay up all night worrying about.
“If they could sign Lowe without giving him a NTC, I think that would make some sense (considering his current going rate of 12M/yr).”
BD,
Lowe for 12M/yr might be the best value of any player on the market.
If you could do it without a NTC then that’s an interesting idea.
But I’m sure Boras will see that angle and demand a NTC if Lowe signs for that little.
And on Sheets if they signed him and he had a good season he would no doubt be a type A guy and they could get a 1st rounder for him next year.
Again, no idea if Sheets is interested in a one year deal. Turning down arbitration suggests he’s not. But the market for him has been completely non-existent.
The Rangers have interest in him reportedly. I’m sure John Daniels has very little desire to give up a first round pick for Sheets, especially given how well the rangers have done in the draft recently.
Anyway, moving on for a second from the talk about Andy’s contract, assume the Yankees don’t sign him. What would it take to get a package of Harang and Keppinger from the Reds? I guess it would start with Nady, but who else?
Boston Dave – I guess you can probably actually do a 6 man rotation for a bit or you can look at the early season schedule and see how many times the 5 spot got skipped.
My point is you essentially do have a 6 starter in Hughes, but you would rather not have that come in to play until later in the season.
So if Sheets starts healthy that is ideal. If he doesn’t then you probably end up with Aceves for a bit.
Breaking news!
Cash is in the studio now pressing a DVD of Andy coming out of the dugout and walking to the mound of the new Yankee Stadium to the song “For the Love of Money” by the O’Jays
CB
January 8th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
As an aside, I think the yankees should look into signing another free agent player, particularly if Pettitte doesn’t come back as they could get a very good value.
So signing someone like Sheets would be relatively less costly for the yankees than for other teams. Same for Cruz. It would only cost them a 4th round pick compared to a 1st or 2nd for every other team.
————-
CB, right on with this. Thats another reason why I want to sign you know who. With no guarantees on Holiday next season and the loss of another 1st round draft pick, the time to sign FA’s is now.
A pitcher would be good but 1 yr would be optimum. A big hitter would be great if we can move some parts.
Better to sign them now than later and we will have 3 hitters coming off the books next year.
Sheets would be good and if healthy we could always move Joba to pen as an option in playoffs or beyond if we had to.
Be nice if Garland’s numbers were what you say, but his ERA was 4.90. He gave up more hits and BB, with over 60 less K’s, in 8 less IP than Andy last season. He’s the improvement? Yes, he’s younger, and ‘08 wasn’t his best, but we’re not looking for a long term deal here.
The simple fact is that Andy’s people are trying to negotiate their client a better deal. That’s their job. Since this has become somewhat contentious, coming to a “face saving” deal has become a problem.
Yes, the market for Pettitte is likely less than what NY is offering, but the Yanks have a record of offering long term org players deals that are somewhat overmarket – frankly, Posada and Mo were offered more than necessary, but the team needed them, so that’s okay. I happen to think that’s fine – nice that at least 1 team has a sense of tradition and continuity for its fans in this day and age. There is also marketing value to a team in this.
Now what may be required is a deal that allows AP to “save face” with some incentives that elevate his possible $ return, based on innings pitched targets. Since that’s what’s required of Andy that makes sense, and incentives for other statistical targets (wins, ERA, WHIP) aren’t alllowed by the CBA anyway. I’m okay with such a deal, and I think Yanks mgmt would be too – didn’t they offer such to Joe T. last year? And I know that’s not the same thing. Just the fact that they offered him incentives, if in fact they don’t regularly, would be a token concession to Andy.
Andy’s agents know better than anyone what his market is – they’re just trying their best. Whether we like it or not.
Just have to decide if a middle ground can be reached. If not, everybody tried, and we move on.
And the options are limited. Plenty of teams still need pitching – they’re just holding out and hoping they can score great deals. But most younger SP’s on the market, like Garland, Perez, Wolf, Sheets, etc., are likely still looking for multiyear deals, and the Yanks aren’t leaning that way with the coming talent they hope develops.
If we’re looking for a cheap alternative that historically can deliver innings and would likely take a 1 year deal now, we could look to Paul Byrd, maybe Braden Looper. The other guys are gonna wait out their options. The Mets, Dodgers, Brewers, and other clubs still need SP’s – so they’ll wait a bit more.
Before I gave $10MM+ to Sheets, I think I’d take another look at getting Mike Cameron for the same money.
I know the Yanks probably aren’t thinking that way, but Cameron would probably give them as many net wins without much risk.
By the way, I think I would rather have Cameron than Andy for the same money as well. But I’m less nervous about Hughes than many.
YankeeRay
I agree! I like you know who too!!! I don’t care much for Cruz, but Sheets is almost a no-brainer. Perhaps the Yankees are waiting for an offer to match for him. Pettite to me makes sense later in the year aka Roger like.
“If you could do it without a NTC then that’s an interesting idea.
But I’m sure Boras will see that angle and demand a NTC if Lowe signs for that little.”
CB, you’re probably right. But you could always put an extra year on the contract that vests if he is traded. It’s possible, in this unique market, to get a little creative.
We’ve seen that Boras doesn’t always get what he wants when the market is down.
It’s probably a plan C at this point, but if the value is there, I hope the Yankees explore it.
Wave,
The crux of our disagreement is your contention that Andy has not availed himself to the open market. That simply isn’t true.
His agents job is to shop for offers. Do you actually believe they haven’t solicited offers other than the Yankees yet? That’s just not how its done.
I know they have called other teams. Its also been reported elsewhere. That’s not breaking news. Its what agents do.
Now, its simple. If an equal or better off is out there, now is the time for it to materialize.
CB, If one could project (I don’t know how you could do this) that Sheets could even give you 120 innings this year, he’s a real intriguing possibility. Unless of course, his medicals are so bad (as Joel Sherman said yesterday on XM) that’s its impossible to sign him.
A 4th round pick in a weak draft for 120 innings of Ben Sheets. For a team like the Yankees, that’s something to think about if the medicals are passable.
Just seems to me his medicals must be really bad because everybody is passing on him. Highly unusual for a guy with his talent.
the yankees have the day after opening day off, then they play 32 games in 33 days. we will need 5 starters right from the start.
the thing i like about lowe that hes always helthy and gives u 200innings and 12+wins and hell be another option to put as a number 4 i think we should add sumbody who is an inning eater like lowe to cuz u noe joba is are number 5th and hes not gonna give u 200innings so ill either sign pettite sign sheets sign lowe or if u dont wana do dat trade for harang
Please no Cameron! He is just an older Melky at this state & not have the potential of Melky at that.
I think this is a good article on the Pettitte situation…
“We’ll attach a card that reads “The Yankee contract offer is for 2009, not for 1995-2008.” If Pettitte didn’t have such a long history with the team, he may not have even gotten a $10 million offer for next season. Your salary is for the work currently being done, not for the work that you’ve done in the past.”
http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/sports/baseball/Andy-Pettittes-Unhappy-With-the-Yankees.html
“Before I gave $10MM+ to Sheets, I think I’d take another look at getting Mike Cameron for the same money. ”
That’s definitely reasonable, particularly if you are ok with Hughes.
Alternatively if you could trade Nady for pitching that wasn’t overly expensive then you could in theory still make the cameron trade.
If Phil could throw 180 league average innings there’s no doubt using the $10M on Cameron would be a definite consideration.
I guess if you look at it this way that makes a lot of sense. Who is more likely to be at least a league average performer Phil Hughes or Gardner/Melky?
If you think it’s Hughes then Cameron makes a lot of sense.
If you think it’s Gardner than another pitcher makes sense.
I guess the one caveat to that is that pitching depth is probably more important than the marginal line up depth and pitching would also be harder to trade for in season.
Whatever “name” players are not signed by the start of spring training will be hung out to dry until the middle of March when their stock will drop considerably more and looking to hook on with any team making a reasonable offer.
The nice commission Scott Boras received from the Teixeira deal will be the last sizeable one he’ll see until the economy improves.
Boras will try his usual procedures with Matt Holliday at the end of the season but he’ll be cutting some office staff knowing his normally high free agent commissions will take a serious dip.
I don’t blame Pettitte for wanting more than 10 mil, after making 16 mil. What the heck – everyone around him is getting 20 mil. After the way NY treated him the first go-around in 2003, I think he can be a little disagreeable. But the Yanks could use him – especially in the postseason. Who’s been clutch as him since El Duque or Cone? Not Kevin Brown or Vasquez… Split the difference and make it happen, before Burnett implodes in a Game 7.
ham – Thanks for the schedule info. That means Sheets would have to be available from the get go and you probably need to throw in a 6th starter there somewhere to skip Joba one turn (or you just limit innings thrown per game).
The questions are, and we clearly don’t have medical information, will Sheets be healthy to pitch at the beginning of the season, will Sheets’ injury reduce his effectiveness immediately, or will Sheets’ injury lead to a deterioration over time?
Any one have thoughts.
giambi took an 80% cut, thats the way it goes, he signed.
SJ44,
As is often the case in other areas of life, we need to define our terms. In this case, what the “open market” means.
I don’t doubt that you are correct that Andy’s agent has talked to many teams. But in what context? Andy has publicly and consistently stated he only wants to pitch in New York, and as a result I don’t believe other teams have viewed yet him as a serious free agent option, and as a result we don’t know what he could get.
“If one could project (I don’t know how you could do this) that Sheets could even give you 120 innings this year, he’s a real intriguing possibility.”
SJ,
Of all things projections do – what they absolutely do the worst is projecting playing time. That is probably their biggest limitation and there’s just not much you can do about that as it’s simply so difficult to predict, especially for pitchers.
I only bring the Sheets thing up because the market for him is so cold. I don’t even know if the yankees would need him for 200 innings if they do pass on Andy.
I’d rather have the liklihood of Andy throwing 200 league average innings than the uncertainty/ upside of Sheets. But if we are talking about plan B’s after Andy it is something to consider.
It’s reasonable to assume that what they really most need is 120 innings from a veteran starter and then they could take a chance on Hughes or whoever is pitching well in the minors.
They most need that veteran #4 to get them through the first half of the season I think. By that point you’d hope that Hughes, Coke or Aceves could step in and throw another 80 innings in the bigs, though that still does leave 60 or so innings you need to make up for Joba.
If you think Ben Sheets can throw 150 innings in 2009 he’d be a decent fit with upside.
I wonder if those back/ shoulder issues on his medicals are more longer term concerns.
wave, are you saying that andys agents are calling other teams to tell them that andy’s only interested in playing for the yankees so they should make an offer?
Were that the case, the Sox would make an offer of $12M just to bring the price up for the Yankees.
The Hendricks brothers must have really got into Andy’s head. Either that or they’re desperate to get more for their cut of his contract.
Andy needs to step in and tell the agents to hold the line now or nobody is a winner. It’s his right as a client to do so.
I’ve always been a big Andy fan but I think it’s time to move on. His best days are behind him. Give Phil a shot.
“Alternatively if you could trade Nady for pitching that wasn’t overly expensive then you could in theory still make the cameron trade.”
I can’t see any team giving us a starting pitcher better than what we have in the minors for Nady. If Cashman could do that, then my Hat is off to him once again.
The notion of a 120 inning pitcher is intriguing, though, if you think both Joba and Hughes will be innings limited. But if you chose that road, Smoltz might have been the best option when you take price into account.
“Sheets seems like a very risky proposition right now.”
Sign Sheets to Boston’s low risk high reward deal with Smoltz. Sheets would project to be more lethal if healthy.
not after signing smoltz and penny… i don’t see that as something the sox would do – with the possibility of Sheets accepting and then the Sox committed to a glut of pitchers.
“I only bring the Sheets thing up because the market for him is so cold. I don’t even know if the yankees would need him for 200 innings if they do pass on Andy.”
Judging from what Pete is saying about his MRI, it’s doubtful they’d get 20 innings from him.
Seriously, people need to turn the page on Sheets. I continue to be totally confused why people want to fixate on injured pitchers. “Let’s get Sheets.” He’s injured. “What about Bedard?” He’s injured and a miserable human being. Do these people not remember Carl Pavano and how much value he brought to the team?
that depends on sheets’ medicals. I’d be very interested to hear a medical experts comparison between smoltz and sheets. That alone would determine the proportion of risk.
“I’ve always been a big Andy fan but I think it’s time to move on. His best days are behind him. Give Phil a shot.”
We tried that last season. It didn’t work out too well.
Besides, with Joba’s innings limit, Phil will get work.
wouldn’t it be the ultimate slap in the face for the yanks to lure the Moose out of retirement for the same 10 mill andy turns his nose up to ?
The problem, Laura, is that Sheets’ upside is ridiculously high IF healthy. He could project to be a lot of teams’ #1 starter. High risk – high reward. But like I said earlier, I trust the medical staffs’ assessment on Sheets… and if they said to Cashman – don’t do it, then who am I to argue? Pass.
Did anyone just hear Skip Bayless on some mutation of ESPN? (1,2, whatever). First of all, the attitude was unprofessional. Called the Yankees, “Mr. Filthy Rich.” Picked them 3rd in the AL East. Said they can’t compete with Boston pitching staff with now Penny and Smoltz. Said they can’t compete with Tampa now that they have Burrell and Price.
Do I need to go into the counterarguments here? I’d guess not. It’s sickening. Funny how every more other teams make improves the VASTLY, while all the moves the Yankees makes keeps them treading water, if they’re lucky. Because Dice-K will NEVER have all those walks come back to bite him; because Smoltz is going to recover 1,000%, as is Penny. Because David Price will win a Cy Young the first week of the season; because Burrell will not have any of the issues attending an aging superstar. Because NONE of the Yankees will recover from their various injuries; NONE of the Yankees will bounce back from sub-par years.
I didn’t intend to put this program on. Just got our first HDTV and was changing channels. Happened upon it. Turned my smile into a frown, I’ll say!
ham fighters
January 8th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
giambi took an 80% cut, thats the way it goes, he signed.
——–
Wonder if he would’ve taken that amount from us or would he be like Andy and ask for more?
While he sounded happy to have a job and to be going full circle with the A’s, you could definitely hear in his voice how much he liked NY and I’m sure he would still rather be here.
I do feel bad for him if we win this year as winning a ring with us was all he talked about when he signed. His dad being a huge Mantle fan was a reason to root for him.
Obviously not comparing him with Donnie Baseball but a little similar in the fact that the year after he leaves we could win a title.
better yet give Moose the 12 mill andy might be wanting, eventho he’s prob asking for 16.
Actually, I think it’ll be similar to last year where Aceves will probably fill the role that Giese did in 08. Finish the last couple of innings of a Joba game. Hughes is also shown signs of improvement and developing new pitches. Do I think he’s ready – no – I’d probably keep him in AAA for another year, but I do also think he can handle the rotation if necessary.
Doreen: ESPN is practically unwatchable. And they’re giving Michael Kay 5 hours a day on the radio!
funny how the longer andy waits the more his rep w/ yank fans suffers. but it doesn’t seem to matter to him.
Mussina is long gone.
Just doesn’t make any sense to spend nearly half a billion bucks and then allow a couple mil one way or another to not fill an obvious and very important need. Meaning an innings eater. And one who if healthy will do far more than eat innings. I jsut cannot imagine allowing the recent investment to hinge on the likes of Ponson and Rasner again.
Andy and Ny fit together. Plain and simple. He’s talented, gutty, loves to win, solid clubhouse guy,left handed, field his position well, with a tremendous p.o. move. To invest what we have this year and let a few mil leave a hole doesn’t make sense, not for the Yankees anywhay. Andy is a deal that has to get done imo.
how is Kay going to manage that with doing games on YES? That man must be loaded
when will andy’s father step in and say how badly the yanks are treating his son?
Doreen
January 8th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Did anyone just hear Skip Bayless on some mutation of ESPN? (1,2, whatever). First of all, the attitude was unprofessional. Called the Yankees, “Mr. Filthy Rich.” Picked them 3rd in the AL East. Said they can’t compete with Boston pitching staff with now Penny and Smoltz. Said they can’t compete with Tampa now that they have Burrell and Price.
——–
Doreen, Bayless is a joke but its these perceptions which I am somewhat in agreement with, that makes me want to continue improving what we have built on so far.
I don’t think we are a lock for anything and 1 or 2 more moves would go a long way in making me and many others feel we are the team to beat.
Right now Tampa and Boston are still the teams to beat until we beat them.
about a week or so before they signed tex, i read somewhere that giambi was still hoping to come back to the yankees. i think he would have taken the same from the yanks for sure. jmo
andy is only a 1 year fix anyway. who’s available next year?
“The problem, Laura, is that Sheets’ upside is ridiculously high IF healthy. He could project to be a lot of teams’ #1 starter. High risk – high reward. But like I said earlier, I trust the medical staffs’ assessment on Sheets… and if they said to Cashman – don’t do it, then who am I to argue? Pass.”
I agree. If he were healthy, it would be a no brainer.
The guy was apopleptic! Eyes bulging, spittle spraying out of his mouth. Like a rabid dog. I feel like I should take a bath. I should probably just block the station, but my husband watches the updates in the AM.
Is Michael Kay bad? I would think since he’s got some kind of ties to the Yankees he might be somewhat, well, kinder?
Look, if the Yankees are a bad team, that’s one thing. If they were spending money they didn’t earn, fine. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see, won’t we. Since I’m already rooting for the Yankees, I’ll just have to root harder.
It will be interesting to see what’s said and what happens to the attitudes on this board in two years when Jeter balks at taking a 38-40% paycut.
“Judging from what Pete is saying about his MRI, it’s doubtful they’d get 20 innings from him.”
Not at all. Sheets right now is looking for a multi-year deal.
The way you evaluate injury risk for a player is entirely different based on whether he is looking for a multiyear deal or a one year deal.
This is why the Giants were willing to sign Randy Johnson for 8M.
I was only bringing up the Sheets issue if his market got depressed to the point that he’d be willing to accept a 1 year deal.
He’s had no offers – make him one and see if he’s desperate enough to bite.
greenberet
are you comparing jeter’s intrinsic value to pettitte’s?
Nothing is a lock, not for any of the teams. And I don’t disagree that Tampa and Boston are the “teams to beat,” since they finished ahead of the Yankees last season. But the Yankees are improved from last season, and if it’s reasonable to assume that all is going to go well for their opponents, why can’t we assume things will go well in NY? Or vice versa – if one assumes that you can’t guarantee anything, why can they guarantee the sky will fall for NY, but Boston and Tampa will face no adversity? THIS is what kills me.
Bayless is a walter Winchell wannabe…same mannerisms, same poison srewed against his perceived enemies….walks about 3 inches off the floor.
ESPN is such a joke. Especially Bayless. He is such a contrarian that if he said the Yankees will finish 3rd, I would take that as a sign that we are looking pretty good! And especially if he was foaming at the mouth about it, lol.
Wave,
As I said earlier, now is the time the rubber meets the road.
Other teams, to keep the Yankees from bidding for other FA’s (say, Mark Teixeira) could have put in an offer that would have forced the Yankees hand a bit.
For example, if you are the Red Sox, and you are pursuing Mark Teixeira, why not put in a 12 million dollar offer on Pettitte to see if the Yankees bite? If they do, it takes them out of the Tex Hunt. They didn’t put in a bid.
Instead, they signed two oft-injured pitchers for what the Yankees are guaranteeing Pettitte.
Andy is a FA and he is now open for offers. Let’s see what the offers are. I think you will be surprised at how light the offers will be for him.
Doreen,
Skip Bayless is the type of commentator that after you listen to him you ask, “Where do I get those two minutes of my life back”?
He’s Mr. Contrived Controversy. In other words, he’s a moron.
Frankly, I hope ESPN picks the Yankees to finish in last place. It would make them feel better and get the desired reaction from people.
If anybody who even casually follows doesn’t think the Yankees improved themselves tremendously this off-season, they simply don’t understand the game.
CORRECTION: same poison ***spewed***
Someone said it earlier today – Andy is looking at things emotionally.
Who knows what was said last year between Cash and Andy’s agents?
Maybe the Yankees offered 2 years/32 mil then and Andy said let’s take it one year at a time.
I think Andy assumed the 16 mil offer would be available in 2009. It sure sounded like that at the end of the season. He came out in the media and said he wanted to return. Girardi said he wanted him back.
At the time (in the media) there were rumors the Yanks would bring back Mussina or Pettitte but not both. Mussina was definately first choice. That probably didn’t make Andy feel great. His Yankee future was based on Moose’s decision.
(based on the 2008 results it makes sense – but going into 2008 – Mussina was obviously below Andy in the pecking order – Moose’s 2007 season was horrible)
Looking at it from Andy’s perspective he led the team in Innings Pitched. He won 14 games. He pitched hurt down the stretch for the good of the team. He’s not going to be a deer in headlines come playoff time.
Is Andy worth 16 mil in the current market place? Obviously not. But pride and logic don’t always go hand and hand.
I don’t see why the Yanks don’t do what they did with Clemens. Offer him a base salary. Throw in a personal service contract after he retires. (something like 5 years – 1.5 mil per)
This would say – we think of you as a lifetime Yankee. We want you to come to Spring Training with all the lifetime Yanks (Nettles, Berra, jackson, Guidry etc… ), we’ll have an Andy Pettitte day at the stadium… blah blah blah
If Andy says no thanks – the Yanks can at least leave the negotiating table with good PR.
doreen
this is all media hype. the yanks are easy to hate. this is the business they are in. every chance they get to hate on the yanks prolongs their job another day.
Mike
January 8th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Your wrong Vincent . .Aceves . Coke and Hughes . don’t have the arm strength or innings to be starters . Joba is on a strict pitch count , and Burnetts health is shaky .. We need a innings eater !
I don’t want to blow bullpen arms every 4th and 5th start.
===========================================
Wrong Mike, sorry about that ….
Aceves pitched in the Mexican league (a lot) and Phil pitched more innings then Joba (counting the winter league).
Phil could go about 160/170 innings. Aceves could go all day and night.
Actually, the need for Andy (or anyone)is way over blown. We have a plethora of arms along with Phil/Aceves/IPK
/Coke/Giese and others that could be our #4/#5. No need to worry about the problems we had last year.
SJ44 -
Oh, yes! I want those 2 minutes back, pronto!!!!!
I know better, and it’s why I rarely listen to sports talk tv or radio, with the exception of the XM station, which for the most part is more balanced. I learn a lot about other teams without as much Yankee-bashing.
Skip Bayless is a contrived contrarian.
I believe Aceves threw in total over 190 innings last year between the U.S. and Mexico.
There’s no workload issues with him at all.
“Not at all. Sheets right now is looking for a multi-year deal.”
Even with a supposed bad MRI? Too much risk for my blood.
Some of you guys have trouble with reading comprehension.
I’m not saying A.J. Burnett isn’t any good. I’m trying to tell you why Andy Pettitte hasn’t rushed to take a pay cut. I’m not saying I agree with Andy (I don’t, in fact), I’m just trying to present how he might be looking at things.
The hatred of Pettitte by some people is ridiculous, too. They’re simply negotiating but some people are acting like he took a swing at somebody. Either they’ll make a deal or not. He doesn’t owe the Yankees anything and they don’t owe him anything.
As for Ben Sheets, believe what you want. But I have been told by officials from three teams that the MRI on his shoulder wasn’t good. If you want to close your eyes and wish really hard that he’ll be healthy, I suppose that’s an option. But it’s not a real good one.
Jon Garland? Please. Andy pitched pretty well last season. He ran into some bad luck and was hurt by their bad defense as he’s far more of a groundball pitcher than he used to be. He also pitched with a sore shoulder.
He’s a far better option that most of the FAs left out there outside of Derek Lowe and they’re not signing Derek Lowe.
i think youll see jeter and the yankees work out an agreement well before he becomes a FA. he wont want any part of this and the yankees will be happy to work something out behind closed door before it becomes a big issue.
“BBB
January 8th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
assuming the Yankees don’t sign Andy. What would it take to get a package of Harang and Keppinger from the Reds? Nady and who else?”
reposting….anyone? anyone? Bueller?
GB,
I think there are several differences in the Jeter/Pettitte situations:
1. There is no record of Jeter ever lying to his employers. I know you discount the HGH stuff but, the Yankees don’t. They were ticked off about being blindsided on that with Pettitte and there are still some hard feelings remain from it.
2. Jeter WILL never go public with a stated position on his contract, like Andy did, and then backtrack from it. Its not how he rolls. He will leave it all to Casey Close (his agent) and you will never hear a peep out of him about his contract.
3. Right now, Jeter is a more productive and marketable player than Andy.
Andy is looking for a one year deal, coming off an awful second half, and is asking for 16 million dollars. This in a market where his comps aren’t anywhere close to getting that kind of cash.
If Jeter is still a .300 hitter by the time his contract expires, he is still a very valuable player on the team. Moreso than Andy and he has no baggage.
In a lot of ways, Derek Jeter is the face of the franchise and the face of MLB. Outside of NY, Andy Pettitte is one of the faces of the Mitchell Report.
Its two entirely different scenarios.
All that said, all Andy has to do is mine an offer greater than the one he has from the Yankees. If he does, he has leverage.
Without it, I hope he enjoys playing in Houston for 7-8 million next year. That is, if some guys, like Berkman and Oswalt, defer some their salary so it can go to Pettitte.
“It will be interesting to see what’s said and what happens to the attitudes on this board in two years when Jeter balks at taking a 38-40% paycut.”
I mentioned earlier how interesting Jeter’s negotiations were going to be. I have a feeling that if Jeter has a subpar year, people will again side with ownership.
Skip Bayless is a no talent hack. All the people he puts down and spews crap about have more talent in their pinkies than he possesses in his entire body. And to boot, he’s a freaking moron.
really now, if cc and aj crap out on us will it matter what andy does. and if they do their job w/ wang and joba in the mix should we worry about andy? we’ve got to get over this ponson/rasner complex . this will not be 08, this is a different team, why all the insecurity? boston fans are laughing at us thinking they really did reverse the curse. stop w/ the negativism.
wave, are you saying that andys agents are calling other teams to tell them that andy’s only interested in playing for the yankees so they should make an offer?
hamfighters-
no, that’s not what I said. I just agreed with SJ44 that the Hendrick’s brothers had no doubt contacted other teams. We just disagreed as to our interpretation of those contacts.
I don’t think Andy is viewed yet as a free agent who is serious about playing for a team other than the Yanks.
SJ44 feels Andy needs to shop himself as a serious free agent, if he has not already done so, in which case SJ44 believes Andy will get a cold dose of reality, while I believe he will get offers closer to what he wants from the Yanks, though not as much as $16MM.
I believe that if the Yanks are serious about another starting pitcher, they should go ahead and compromise with Andy beyond where they are now, if Andy will agree to a deal south of $13MM. Other people think the Yanks could do better by going for another starting pitcher.
I think we all agree only time will tell.
“As for Ben Sheets, believe what you want. But I have been told by officials from three teams that the MRI on his shoulder wasn’t good.”
Pete,
Question – was the MRI so bad that even a one year deal doesn’t make sense?
I have no idea – just wondering.
Lot’s of players have medical issues that make even 2 year deals too risky. But Randy Johnson’s MRI of his back I’m sure is a disaster – and he still had multiple offers on a 1 year deal.
Andy is no Jeter.
Someday Jeter will have a Monument
Andy won’t get his number retired
This question is more for Pete than anyone else, if he’s still around reading this. What does the probability of Pettitte coming back look like? People have all sorts of opinions, but does anyone know?
Doreen
January 8th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Nothing is a lock, not for any of the teams. And I don’t disagree that Tampa and Boston are the “teams to beat,” since they finished ahead of the Yankees last season. But the Yankees are improved from last season, and if it’s reasonable to assume that all is going to go well for their opponents, why can’t we assume things will go well in NY? Or vice versa – if one assumes that you can’t guarantee anything, why can they guarantee the sky will fall for NY, but Boston and Tampa will face no adversity? THIS is what kills me.
——-
Doreen, its easy for everyone to hate us especially on ESPN. Bayless is just trying to create a shtick for himself and he can’t be taken seriously.
But the fact remains that the Rays should be better with the 2 hitting additions and a full year out of Price.
Boston, we don’t know about because they are not done yet and if they land a good catcher they could be as good or better than last year as their bullpen should be better.
As far as we go. we all assume we will be better and hopefully so.
We swapped out 34 wins (Pettite and Mussina) with CC and AJ who will hopefully duplicate that and more. If Andy comes back and with Joba and a healthy Wang we should be much improved on the mound.
At the bat we lost 2 big bats with Abreu and Giambi but have replaced that with Tex and the hope that Swish and Cano have better years along with a healthy group of Posada,Matsui,Jeter etc.. should be able to produce more runs.
Wow, I may have just talked myself out of signing Manny lol.
wave, i was being sarcastic. of course they are trying to get offers, he is on the market and so far the $10M trumps everybody so currently his value is $10M (assuming the offer is still on the table)
Pete,
I don’t think anybody is disputing Andy is a good option.
However, “good” is defined by price.
You know how the Steinbrenners operate. At some point, lines get drawn and positions harden.
I think the Yankees would love him back at 10 million.
Maybe they would love him back at 11 million.
They are probably less “in love” with having him back at 12 million.
Anything above 12 million? Full blown breakup.
At some point though, they have to move on.
January looks like moving month in baseball for a lot of guys. There are deals out there. Especially since its clear the Yankees have 8-10 million to spend on a starting pitcher.
I don’t think anybody, at least I don’t, hate Andy. I do have a difficult time reconciling his public stance to his current stance. However, I realize that’s all part of the game.
I do think he owes the Yankees a little bit of a solid from last year.
Not saying he has to play for slave wages. But, he can’t complain about the Yankees “disrespecting his past” to Ken Davidoff and conveinently forget the bullet the organization took for him last year.
Can’t have it both ways.
I do hope this gets worked out because I’d like to see him finish his career in NY.
However, if that doesn’t happen, and he leaves over money, I don’t think its out of line for fans to question his honesty based on the statements he has made as late as October of this year.
There’s probably too much focus being placed on $$ and not enough on exactly what the Yankees should be looking for at this point to improve the team.
It seems to me what everyone likes (liked?) about Andy is “guaranteed” 200 IP at league-average or better. If Andy doesn’t come on board, the player who best approximates his expected contribution is Lowe, right? However, Lowe is going to get a 3-year deal, so it’s reasonable to ask whether not having to commit to the add’l 2 years is worth the premium Andy is charging for being such a wonderful empoyee all these years.
Is there any other pitcher besides Pettitte and Lowe who offers the same combination of high innings plus solid-if-unspectacular performance?
Sheets is intriguing, but he’s the opposite of what people liked about Andy. Sheets is very high upside but very high risk. And, like Lowe, he’s probably still looking for a 3+-year deal. He would be an exciting acquisition, but we would just be adding another question mark when the idea was to eliminate one.
I do like the idea of revisiting the Mike Cameron trade. CB’s comments about Baldelli make it hard to ignore the fact that Cameron had a 110 OPS+ as a CF last year, which would appear to make him a fairly elite player at that position. Cameron represents probably about the same degree of upgrade over Melky/Gardner in CF as Pettitte would represents over Hughes/the world as a 5th starter. Same money, same length of deal (one year). You lose Melky but, whatever.
“wave, i was being sarcastic. of course they are trying to get offers, he is on the market and so far the $10M trumps everybody so currently his value is $10M (assuming the offer is still on the table)”
Oh, sorry. I just thought English wasn’t your first language.
Blazing Copper
January 8th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Andy is no Jeter.
Someday Jeter will have a Monument
Andy won’t get his number retired
——–
When Andy bolted the first time I said he just ruined his chances of a number retirement and many old timers day returns.
When he came back I said he may have just saved himself. If he stays now and we win again it will be close, if he leaves, adios.
Andy can take a very fair offer of $10 million, or he can accept less from another club. The Yankees are handling this appropriately and with class. They’ve helped see Pettitte through large career stumbling blocks.
Pettitte is nowhere near the pitcher he was, and $10 million is more than a nice goodbye present. If he continues to balk, there are other options.
I keep hearing that Tampa & Boston are the teams to beat! Excuse me, but NYY beat both of them last year. It was Toronto & Baltimore etc that beat the Yanks last year. The rotations were set so #1 & #2 SP were aligned for Boston & Tampa & even Toronto. Toronto out pitched the Yanks last year. The Yankee #4 & #5 starters killed them against the lesser teams and ultimately kept them from the playoffs. That doesn’t appear to be the case this year with CC, AJ, Wang & Joba & (Ace/IPK/Hughes) set for this year. The Yankee bullpen is very good. The pitching is there in my opinion. Last yrs staff was predominately Mussina, Andy, & whoever. Neither Andy nor Mike were #1 or #2 starters, yet Mike did well for his less than 6 innings every game.
So relax. Let Boston be favored! Or Tampa! Let other teams set up their rotations for them as well and let’s see where the chips lie in October.
I think the Yanks finish 1st, Tampa 2nd & Toronto 3rd. Boston 4th. JMO!
God, I hate posting this, because Brandon, who’s still hot about the Tabata deal, is not going to take this well.
***15 players have been invited to spring training, including Erick Threets***
The others: left-handers Carmen Cali, Brian Mazone, Jacobo Meque, and Stephen Randolph; right-handers Travis Chick, Nick DeBarr, Edgar Martinez and Scott Strickland; middle infielder Hector Luna and two first basemen/outfielders: Mitch Jones and Val Pascucci.
Just ragging you, Brandon.
“I do think he owes the Yankees a little bit of a solid from last year.”
SJ44, I find this to be an interesting position, considering that most here go on and on about how the Yankees don’t owe Andy anything for his past performances because he was paid for that performance. Can’t the same be said for Andy? The Yankees stood by him (on something I have a feeling they knew about) and he paid them back by “taking the bullet” in the second half when the rotation was in tatters. Would you agree with that assessment?
Can you imagine the howls of laughter if the Yankees guaranteed $5.5mil to a soon to be 42 year old pitcher who pitched 5 games last year and has had 4 elbow surgeries since ‘03 not to mention major shoulder surgery in ‘08?
Only the Red Sox can be deemed geniuses in the media for signing Smoltz. The fact is,in 2009 Smoltz is more likely to pitch 100 innings for his $5.5mil than he is 200. It’s funny how the Red Sox brag that they don’t pay their own players for what they’ve done in the past and here they are paying Smoltz for what he did for the Braves.
the more i think about it the more i like lowe. 3 years at 14m might do it. he is a pettitte type w/ playoff, ws experience. andy is a 1 year fix. put the offer out there for lowe and make andy make his move.
Sorry, no….Jeter isn’t getting a monument, until MAYBE after he dies. Berra and Ford will get one before that ever happens.
This is random..
Does anyone know if the bleachers in the new stadium will be connected with the rest of the stadium? Also, will they be selling beer in the bleachers?
beer will be in the restaurant adjacent to the bleachers
this is why i expect jeter and the yankees to announce in ST 2011 that they have worked out an extension. it will be in the interest of both sides as the knowlege that jeter wont want to go anywhere would hinder his market and the yanks will be happy to avoid this mess with the captain.
Laura
you should not even mention Jeter’s potential contract in the same paragraph as Pettitte’s.
Jeter is one of the great All Time Yankees. Pettitte is a proven liar and has displayed a hypocrisy that is quite revealing.
I hope he stays for 10mm, if not I hope you have the grace to recognize that it was his decision and please do not ever try to compare his situation to Jeter’s, that is going far too far.
jeters # goes up w/ the retireds the day he retires. andy will not, no matter if he signs or not.
IMO, the AL East is going to be one heck of a race this season. The Yankees are absolutely in the mix and appear to be just as likely to win it as anybody else. Any of these analysts that argue with that probably have some serious bias. They have to make their predictions and some may have the Yanks in 3rd but make no mistake about it… the Yanks have improved. I’m not sure how much, if any, the Red Sox have. There is no more clear advantage in Boston.
GReen-
Unless you were being sarcastic I believe that BOTH Whitey and Berra have monuments out there already they didnt have to die first
The Red Sox may have been interested in Pettitte,but I doubt it was mutual. Joe Torre agrees.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12092008/sports/yankees/report__red_sox_interested_in_pettitte_143412.htm
Of course after he dies.
“this is why i expect jeter and the yankees to announce in ST 2011 that they have worked out an extension. ”
I hope this happens. I would hate to have to go through all of this crap again. It’s bad enough that it’s happening with Andy. Having to go through it again with Jeter would be too much.
the monuments are creepy and you dont want to do them while the person is alive b/c they look like grave markers. i say a yogi statue would be a great idea, though.
Trade some combination of Matsui and one of Nady, Melky, Swisher to the Giants for
Full Name: Jonathan O. Sanchez
Born: 11/19/1982
Birthplace: Mayaguez, Puerto Rico
Height: 6′ 2″ Weight: 190
Bats: Left
Throws: Left
College: Ohio Dominican
MLB Debut: 05/28/2006
Laura,
I would. Which is why they are offering him a deal higher than any other #4 starter in the game. Its also higher than any other one year offer a starting pitcher received so far this off-season.
I would also ask, what’s more important in terms of “owing”…..pitching with a sore shoulder, or having your organization take all the hits for HGH use that you did not disclose to the team prior to signing your 16 million dollar contract?
I think the Yankees have treated him properly with the offer. I would like to see Andy return the favor if you will.
Asking for 16 million in this marketplace doesn’t even make sense. Its not a starting point. Its an ending point.
That’s why I’m having a hard time understanding his position.
GB, If Jeter gets 3,000 hits he’ll get his statue.
RayVTNC
So relax. Let Boston be favored! Or Tampa! Let other teams set up their rotations for them as well and let’s see where the chips lie in October.
I think the Yanks finish 1st, Tampa 2nd & Toronto 3rd. Boston 4th. JMO!
——
Ok Ray, but can we sign you know who just to make sure?
Time to let the kids shoot it out for the 5th spot. Kennedy & Hughes should have learned alot from last year, and a little competition will suit them fine. As time goes on it looks like the Yankees got a bad rap for letting Pettitte go the first time. Based on this experience, and what he went through with Houston, Andy thinks he’s this HOF pitcher that deserves to make CY Young money. Sure he’s been clutch in the post season, but those days are fading fast. He professed all of this loyalty to the Yankees, after they stuck by him last year during the HGH scandal, and now he’s just like every other free agent out there trying to shake some extra money out of the tree. Hal should just make a statement wishing Pettitte good luck, and move on.
Sit down for this one LOL
Get ready for this one 
*Adam Jones is denying an ESPN report that he arranged for someone to shoot at three men outside a Atlanta night club.
In fact an angry Jones said he’s planning legal action against the network.
“It will be a lawsuit in a week against ESPN,” Jones said. “That’s stupid. It’s so stupid I have no more comments.”*
http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/01/pacman-to-sue-espn.html
Gayle
They have retired numbers and plaques not monuments.
jete should get 4000
Blazing Copper
January 8th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Of course after he dies.
————————————————————
Not even then. Plaque, number retired yes. Monument…no. Jeter is not a legendary ball player anywhere outside of NY. HOF, yes…legendary…NO.
Braintrust
January 8th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Time to let the kids shoot it out for the 5th spot.
——-
We can’t have 2 spots with innings limitations. We need an innings eater in the 4th spot with Hughes to fill in for Joba or anyone else that gets hurt.
I think this is our plan for next year.
how about statues of dimaggio, berra and mantle at the 3 entrances, that would have been cool!
it’s either pete, jete or jete, pete.
While we discuss Andy Pettite, probably Cash & Pettite are laughing. I believe that Andy will be a Yankee in 2009 whether in March or July. If he agrees to come back in July like Roger did, then his loss at the beginning of Spring could be used to sign more hitting (Manny!)! Boras has to get Manny at least his opt out $$ & the Yankees will comply IMO.
There is no benefit to signing Pettite now. (40 Man roster hits. $$ lost for garnering a FA whose price drops! etc)
Oh, that whacky Pacman!
Of course Andy will have his number retired. What planet do some of you people come from? It must have been sufficiently far away that you were in space between 1995 and 2003.
Andy’s willingness to do a one year deal should be worth a premium to the Yanks, not any discount, by the way.
The Yanks have a lot of good minor league pitchers, and they don’t need another multi-year contract getting in the way of their development. If we signed Lowe, Hughes would have to go.
Andy is by far the best, most reliable pitcher the Yanks can get on a one-year deal. I keep waiting to hear who else is out there like Andy on a one-year basis.
SJ44, I see you’ve come up to $12MM. We’re only a million apart now.
yankee ray
any chance the yanks go for lowe? this would solve the andy problem.
Wave Your Hat
January 8th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Of course Andy will have his number retired.
——–
Wave, if he walks now, no way does he get his number retired.
I have been a big Andy Pettitte fan since the beginning. Having said that, I can’t see his number being retired.
if andy doesnt come back someone will wear his # this year.
No Lowe, too many years. Boras will get his money and years for him, probably from Atlanta.
i think what pettitte went through last winter with the mitchell report may have taken some of his edge away. i’m not really sure he’s the big game pitcher he used to be. pettitte is lucky to have been accepted back with mostly open arms.
i’m personally not crazy about people that wear their religion on their sleeves who live at odds with their stated beliefs but confess their sins which gets them of the hook, but leaves others in trouble.
i think pettitte has some inconsistencies with his beliefs and his behavior that would make it hard for him not to feel like a hypocrite at times. being conflicted about who you are doesn’t exactly create an edge when you go between the lines.
i think given the circumstances 10 million is more than enough for pettitte. i wouldn’t be sorry if pettitte move on because it would put an end to a sad chapter in yankee history with what happened with him and clemens.
Mariano & Jeter & Posada will have their numbers retired before Andy.
joltin joe
January 8th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
if andy doesnt come back someone will wear his # this year.
—–
Funny
Pete said the Yankees are not signing Derek Lowe, but he also said many times that we would not sign Teixiera. How did that work out? Lowe will be a Yankee tomorrow!
Ha, I’m just kidding around with Pete, I don’t think the Yankees go after Lowe.
If the Yankees were really being cheap, somebody else would scoop him up for $11 or $12m, but that has not happened yet. Kind of implies a limited interest in Andy P. He’s probably the best option, o/s a healthy Sheets, but if the Yankees are not comfortable paying him more than $10m, so be it. How many teams have a $10m #5 starter ? I’d like another veteran arm, but who knows, maybe this is the season Hughes busts out!
GB he will be (is) a legendary Yankee though. At the end of his career he’ll be top 1, 2 or 3 in most catagories except HR and RBI.
I’m gettin the creeps a little now
But my only point was Jeter can’t be compared to Andy as far as “face of the franchise” “Fan Fave” “Mr. Yankee” type stuff
andy is clearly a follower. he followed roger into hell. i have personally seen him ignore fans at ST, clearly un-christian-like acts. he followed his fathers advice walking away from the yanks for houston. now he is following his agents advise to get every last buck out of us.
i think given the circumstances 10 million is more than enough for pettitte. i wouldn’t be sorry if pettitte move on because it would put an end to a sad chapter in yankee history with what happened with him and clemens.
——
And Giambi. Maybe Cash wants to wash his hands with all of the juicers as Tex brings a clean history.
is there a difference between a monument and a plaque to me they are the same thing. I thought they ran out of room for actual monuments thus why they ended up with plaques. Maybe I am wrong and someone can clarify.
Green Bay,
Those are all Dodger invites.
“Jones said. “That’s stupid. It’s so stupid I have no more comments.”
Funny, I was just thinking the same thing about his behavior!
Didn’t I hear that the ‘Girls already released him recently? heh. great signing there…
Anyone care to be distracted from the Pettitte talk and play a little trivia?
Who did the Tigers recieve in their trade of John Smoltz to the Braves?
I’ll give 2 hints:1) he’s now 58 years old and 2)he won a game for the Yankees in the ‘76 World Series.
Don’t cheat by looking it up!
“Time to let the kids shoot it out for the 5th spot. Kennedy & Hughes should have learned alot from last year,”
i think hughes may have learned something and will be helpful as the season progresses, but i think kennedy learned to be afraid. i think kennedy will take a lot of seasoning at the triple a level before he’s ready again. he may also need to go somewhere else where he can get experience with less pressure.
yanks got swept in 76
Doyle Alexander.
Drive 4-5
January 8th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Anyone care to be distracted from the Pettitte talk and play a little trivia?
Who did the Tigers recieve in their trade of John Smoltz to the Braves?
I’ll give 2 hints:1) he’s now 58 years old and 2)he won a game for the Yankees in the ‘76 World Series.
Don’t cheat by looking it up!
——
Doyle Alexander?
everybody’s free to say what they feel but as far as andy’s religious beliefs, i just dont go there i think that has no place in the discussion.
Wave,
I’m not up to 12 million dollars for Pettitte. I was just handicapping what the Yankees thinking MIGHT be.
Until somebody offers him more money, 10 is his ceiling with the Yankees.
He’s not getting his number retired. Come on, Wave, let’s be real.
He was a good pitcher. He’s not good enough to have his number retired.
Really, they have enough retired numbers. Guys who are HOF calibur get their number retired. Not Andy Pettitte.
That’s a bit much.
Chipper Jones did a very candid, very interesting interview with the Atlanta Journal constitution regarding his shock to Smoltz leaving. Very interesting interview in many regards.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/2009/01/08/john_smoltz_chipper_jones.html
Im starting to bite on this Cameron idea. Not for the 10 mil price tag though. The Brewers look to have lost 2 starters from last year. Why not try to have them take Igawa and his 5 mil per year, i believe + Melky? Therefore we have in reality got Cameron for 5 mil.
I still wouldnt mind having Figgins play center field for us. The Angels have blanked this offseason in getting a bat. We could look into trading one of our outfielders/dh to them for Chone.
Gayle the monuments are for those special players 3,4, 5 and 7 and Miller Huggins. And were dedicated after their deaths. The first 3 were on the field of play for many years
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_Park_%28Yankee_Stadium%29
joltin joe
January 8th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
yanks got swept in 76
My bad! I meant to say lost a game in the Series! lol
Yes, the answer is Doyle Alexander.It kinds puts Smoltz’ age in perspective doesnt it?
CB
January 8th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Chipper Jones did a very candid, very interesting interview with the Atlanta Journal constitution regarding his shock to Smoltz leaving. Very interesting interview in many regards.
—–
If they are not going to rekindle Peavey deal then they need to sign Lowe after missing out on AJ.
Their fans must be happy.
LLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like me or not, I’ve got a better smile than Peter Gammons.
“or having your organization take all the hits for HGH use that you did not disclose to the team prior to signing your 16 million dollar contract?”
SJ
Come on now. How many players have done HGH or worse? Now how many have disclosed to thier team prior to signing or at anytime therafter? Enough of the “liar” argument.
I know alot of people are not Garland fans. But if you look at his numbers last season they were VERY similiar to Pettitte’s season. Garland’s era was a little higher, strikeouts less but he is also 7 years younger then Pettitte. I think the Yanks should go after him if they can get him for a 2 year deal and less then $10m per
Pettitte era 4.54
IP H R ER HR BB SO
204 233 112 103 19 55 158
Garland era 4.90
196.2 237 116 107 23 59 90
“Asking for 16 million in this marketplace doesn’t even make sense. Its not a starting point. Its an ending point.”
SJ44,
I agree that his request for $16mil is unreasonable. That being said, I am very much on the record that I’d go with 12mil. The market may not support it, but in my mind, he deserves a hometown bonus. You no doubt see this as a a poor business decision, but if it were my decision to make, that is what my final offer would be. Now if he balks at that, I would unfortunately have to say goodbye to him and wish him the best of luck in whatever life holds for him.
TY Blazing Cooper see you learn something new every day here. I just thought that they ran out of monument space thus went to plaques and that being as gehrig, ruth etc were the first thus why they got monuments
It is sad to see that Smoltz won’t be retiring as a Brave. For Braves fans, seeing Smoltz in another team’s uniform has to be like seeing Bernie Williams in another uniform would have been for Yankee fans.
Pettite wants 16 mil
Yanks offer 10 mil
Just offer him 12 mil and 1 mil bonus if he reaches 200 IP
What the hell is so hard about this? Basically meet in the middle and it’s done.
Are the Yanks really gonna go thru all this BS over 2 to 3 million after dropping 430+ million this winter?
June of 1976 was a crazy time in baseball. Not only did we make the dumb Scott McGregor, Tippy Martinez, Rick Dempsey and Rudy May for Alexander, Ellie Hendricks, Ken Holzman and Jimmy Freeman trade, but we and the Red Sox had the purchase of a bunch of the A’s players voided by commissioner Kuhn, even thought that was how the A’s had renewed themselves since Connie Mack. Kuhn’s action went along way toward creating the big market/small market environment of today.
gayle
January 8th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
is there a difference between a monument and a plaque to me they are the same thing. I thought they ran out of room for actual monuments thus why they ended up with plaques. Maybe I am wrong and someone can clarify.
————————————————————
There was only one monument in center field for years, for Manager Miller Huggins who died during the season in 1929. The monument was erected in 1932. Gehrig’s in 1941, Ruth’s in 1949, Mantle’s in 1996, and DiMaggio’s in 1999. The plaques were dedicated starting in 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_Park_(Yankee_Stadium)
Perfect solution: Braden Looper
1. He’s a free agent
2. Innings eater
3. Much cheaper than Pettitte
4. Can swing to the bullpen if/when Hughes, etc. come up
“Just offer him 12 mil and 1 mil bonus if he reaches 200 IP”
I’m starting to believe that the Yankees may have upped their offer a little bit, but Andy isn’t biting. Pride is a horrible thing.
Smoltz in Boston
Hoffman in Milwaukee
Seems that Pettitte leaving would be easy, especially since he already did once.
Cripes whats next – Jeter finishing up in Detroit in 2011?
Not a good day to be an ATlanta fan after reading those comments however Chipper JOnes saying that they could have had that “dominant” guy back in their lineup that is a little hard to believe after his season last year and him coming off of major surgery.
We sort of all have to remember it rarely does end well in sports. Having someone play their entire career for one team in any league these days is an exception not the norm.
i went to the stadium the first time in 64, there were 3 monuments in the field of play. i also went to monument park as soon as they opened it when the ‘new’ stadium opened, still the same 3 monuments. the plaques are different to me. i didnt even know until today that they had added new monuments, i thought it was still the original 3.
I think at the end of the day Jeter gets a monument. Especially if he stays with the Yanks his entire career and ends up north of 3500 hits. Face of the franchise, won 4 rings, first ballot HOFer, probably top 10 in his position all time, gotta have a monument. The real question is…..do you give ARod a monument if he hits 800 HRs? I think he gets one.
BTW interesting aside on Smoltz. I was a 15 year old snot nosed kid in Glens Falls in 1986 when Smoltz was their 4th starter for the AA Tigers and got traded for Doyle Alexander. At the time Smoltz was horrible and everyone in town was laughing at that deal. From wiki:
19-year-old righty John Smoltz was voted the 9th-best prospect in the league despite a horrible season in which he went 4-10 with a 5.68 ERA and walked almost as many as he fanned (81:86 in 130 innings).
“He’s not getting his number retired. Come on, Wave, let’s be real.
He was a good pitcher. He’s not good enough to have his number retired.
Really, they have enough retired numbers. Guys who are HOF calibur get their number retired. Not Andy Pettitte.”
Andy won’t get his number retired tomorrow, I agree. I also agree I would not put Andy in the HOF. I also agree that after the 1996 through 2003 Yanks’ numbers get retired the Yanks may need to start re-thinking the process.
But I do think there will come a day, after he does retire, when the hard feelings have had a chance to subside, that he’ll be welcomed back at an Old-Timer’s game and his number will be retired.
IMO, he was our second best pitcher, and overall our best starting pitcher, for the period 1996 through 2003. Those years were truly great years for the franchise. I know that’s arguable, because certainly other pitchers had better years during that time, but they came and went.
So I think his number will be retired. But on reflection I will agree that perhaps you don’t have to be from another planet to disagree.
Either Smoltz or Glavine tried ironing his shirt while he was still wearing it back when they were young.
“The real question is…..do you give ARod a monument if he hits 800 HRs? I think he gets one.”
I would, but I think others will demand some WS rings.
isn’t there supposed to be a Yankee museum somewhere around the new stadium?
Laura,
You bring up a good point. What would be the harm in offering Pettitte a base of $10-11mil plus incentives for number of starts or 200 innings? If Andy made 35 starts and pitched 207 innings like he did last year when he was hurting, he could reach the incentives if healthy.If he did give them 200+ innings and protected Joba’s innings in the process he’d be worth it.
Doubtful that either Rodriguez or Jeter get a monument.
Andrea, what makes you think Pete is any more in the know on whether Pettitte will come back than anyone else here???? If you listen to what Hal said, it isn’t looking great. If you listen to what Joel Sherman said, the Yankees are even considering cutting down the $10 mil offer! Pete didn’t see the Yanks going after Tex (neither did I but I am not professing to know what the Yankees are going to do in the Pettitte case!) He is as much in the dark on this as anyone else. The best he can do is to guess at what Andy is thinking at this point and then report whatever he knows to be fact.
We’ll know whether Andy is coming back as soon as we do. The rest is a good way to keep a blog going on a slow day since this is a controversial topic!
C’mon people, Pettitte’s number is NOT getting retired. Aaron Guile anyone?
Last year about this time, everyone was praising the “rebirth” of the Yankees Minor League System, especially the pitching prospects. This year its more expensive FA signings and fretting about Andy Pettitte, who is definitely on the downside of a good career.
The Yankee Organization can’t find ONE suitable replacement in its MiLB system for No. 4 Pettitte??
Doesn’t say much for the confidence in the Yankee MiLB System, huh?
“Mariano & Jeter & Posada will have their numbers retired before Andy.”
Andy shouldn’t get his number retired. Not only did he leave the team on 2 occasions, he wasn’t dominant, solid yes. He never won a Cy Young and was never even the best pitcher on the team(except for maybe 96). The Yanks will not have any numbers left under 50 by the time this generation enters retirement.
rodg12
Good question.
The Red Sox are truly taking a page out of the recent Yankee handbook…placate your fans by taking chances on former big name players whose best days are behind them.
The Yankees have been doing this to us for years with the Dotel, Lieber, Sexson, Ensberg and the recent Clemens type signings.
We’ve all seen where those moves have you end up. You end up letting Sidney Ponson pitch meaningful games and have the fans clamoring for Cody Ransom.
They already know Smoltz can’t pitch until June at best. It’s a cosmetic move/roll of the dice in the hopes he doesn’t turn into a pumpkin like Schilling did for 8 million.
In the meantime the chowder-heads up there can all scream and shout “we got smoltz!”, but when the pitcher you get is on the wrong side of 40 just off shoulder surgery it might turn out to be 5.5 million flushed down the Charles.
If you don’t think the Red Sox front office is trying to placate their fans with Smoltz and with signing local kid Baldelli, you don’t know much.
Baldelli and Smoltz make great comeback stories at cheap prices, something they love up there. They’ll canonize them until the Sawx are 5 games back of the Yankees.
Then the media will crucify their ownership and GM for being cheap.
The worm is turning.
This is how it started here in NY over the past years. We started being placated by big name past their prime signings.
The difference about this off season is we went out and acquired players in their prime and paid dearly for it.
It costs money to win. Boston should know. They spent a fortune after 2005 to get back in the playoffs.
“You bring up a good point. What would be the harm in offering Pettitte a base of $10-11mil plus incentives for number of starts or 200 innings? ”
I’m all for an incentive laden contract, but Pete claims that the Yankees don’t like to do those. At this point, I think that they need to think outside the box and start proposing some things to get this contract issue resolved. It’s getting old really fast.
Oh and let’s not Leave 51 out of the retired numbers game.
Bern Baby Bern!
The key to the monument debate is whether grown men are speechless and have tears in their eyes when meeting the plater and getting his autograph. Jeter will never reach that status. The other four did.
Peter,
A few weeks ago you wrote that Andy owed the Yankees for not telling them about his inclusion in the Mitchell report. Now today at 3:52 you said he doesn’t owe the Yankees anything. Which one is it???
GB, How do you not give ARod a monument if he hits 800+ HRs? He had 345 when he came to the Yanks. That means he hits 455+ for the Yanks alone. Throw in a ring or two and it has to be a done deal, doesn’t it? Are the rings necessary though? Probably, I guess. I think with 800+ he should get it regardless, but it might be tough with no rings by that time.
Basically, what are the qualifications he must meet to get a monument?
CORRECTION: ***player***
G Love,
I want to congratulate on your 1:43AM post this morning. I nearly spit my coffee reading it when I got up.
“One thing is for certain, Gammons will wax poetic about how Smoltz is healthier and throwing freer than ever and is a dark horse to win the AL Cy Young, that the crack Red Sox medical team discovered that Baldelli’s medical condition is nothing more than a hang nail and that Brad Penny visited Lourdes this off season and is completely healed and throwing 105mph at his local high school park.
All three players are great in the clubhouse, incredible human beings and have already started charities in Boston and donated all of their salary to the Jimmy Fund are will be visiting local firehouses after their press conferences and then will hit local bars and drink with the fans while listening old CD’s by The Smithereens until they all puke.
They’ll follow that up the next morning by painting the green monster and helping old Boston ladies cross the street during their morning pub crawls.
Theo also secretly had a file with a wish list of players he wanted to acquire this off season that only Gammons and Ben Affleck were privy to. The top 3 names? Smoltz, Penny and Baldelli.
The real trick is he got the Yankees to buy the expensive players just so he could get the real steals of the year after the big bad Yankees had spent all their scratch.”
What has Andy done to have his number retired?
Look at the Yankee pitchers who have had their number retired. He isn’t in that class.
Retired numbers aren’t for very good players. They are for great players.
Andy Pettitte was never a great player.
This has nothing to do with any hard feelings.
They just don’t want to pay him what he wants. That’s not hard feelings. That’s a business decision.
His career is not retired number worthy. I don’t even see how its debatable.
You are overstating his achievements because of your affection for him as a player.
Of the Dynasty players, the ONLY people who should have their numbers retired are 2 (Jeter), 6 (Torre) and 42 (Rivera). The HOF guys from that team.
The very good players: O’Neill, Tino, and Bernie, along with Pettitte and Posada, are not retired number worthy.
Excellent post, G. Love and facual as well
What I don’t get is why we aren’t hearing anything about offers between $10 million and $16 million.
OK, he rejects the $10. Fine. What did they counter with? $15?
As Neyer pointed out, if we’re going anywhere close to 14 or 15, we might as well invest it in someone more worth our while.
Its hard to argue for Lowe over Pettitte especially when Pettitte only wants one year, but why wouldn’t the Yankees take a risk on someone like Smoltz who was only asking for $5 million and one year…or what about Garland?
I was going to guess Grover Cleveland Alexander. I think he also did not win a game for the Yankees in the ‘76 series.
SJ44,
No plaque for Posada? All he was was the best American League catcher of his generation. More homers & rbi’s than any of his peers and started on 3 WS Champions and counting.
GB, I think you might be underestimating Jeter’s effect on my generation (me being 25). Man, he was idol when I was in HS. I wore #2 because of him. Stood in line hours before away games to get in first down by the dugout to get his autograph. Saw him hit one of the most clutch HRs (2001 WS) I’ve personally seen. I’d be pretty dang speechless to finally meet him.
Upon reflection, Bernie comes closer to getting his number retired from the “very good” group. That’s about it though.
The Yankees don’t do incentive laden contracts.
Their philosophy behind it is, if they are going to pay players a lot of money, more than anybody in baseball, they don’t feel the player needs “incentives” to play harder to earn more money.
Again, until Andy finds a higher offer, the Yankees aren’t bidding against themselves in this.
No matter how many times folks want to rail about the Yankees “lowballing” Andy, until a better offer comes along, its still the highest offer he’s got.
Rodriguez will have his number retired, as long as he keeps the pace, and, he should even get a plaque, but, not a monument.
Actually, I would vote for Bernie and Jorge for the Hall of Fame, if I had a vote.
Nick in SF
January 8th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
I was going to guess Grover Cleveland Alexander. I think he also did not win a game for the Yankees in the ‘76 series.
No Grover didnt win a game for us in ‘76,but the Red Sox are holding a surprise press conference tonight to announce the signing of GCA and Smoltz.
“The very good players: O’Neill, Tino, and Bernie, along with Pettitte and Posada, are not retired number worthy.”
SJ44, you are dead on with this one. I love these guys, but I wouldn’t retire any of their numbers. That being said, I wouldn’t be so quick to hand them out to other players either. It would depend on the player. If Tex had said he wanted 21, I would have given it to him. Ensberg and Hawkins? Um, no.
Drive 4-5: GCA is still a gamer and grittier than ever.
“why wouldn’t the Yankees take a risk on someone like Smoltz who was only asking for $5 million and one year.”
Perhaps the fact that he’s 42, pitched only 5 games last year and has had 5 surgeries in 6 years made them shy away.
Drive,
He has been a very good player. I don’t think he’s the best catcher of his generation. I think that honor goes to Pudge.
MVP, a bunch of Gold Gloves, WS Champion with the Marlins, led the Tigers to another WS, and a first ballot HOF.
Jorge has had a very good career. Not retired number worthy, IMO.
“The Yankees don’t do incentive laden contracts.”
No, they just offer those to managers. LOL!
G. Love,
Very good post. The Red Sox are very much now faced with the same kind of challenges the yankees were around 2000.
The need to win the world series at all costs or the season is a relative failure. A difficult to appease fan base. Large revenues and high ticket prices.
The transition between the “up an coming” franchise and a franchise that has to win every year is not easy.
Their farm system is a great case in point. That’s been a large part of their success. And they’ve done a very good job there.
But there farm system has not produced any superstars. I wouldn’t put Pedroia, Papelbon, Lester or Youkilis in that category.
Their farm system worked because they had a dominant core of Manny, Papi, and Schilling/Beckett to build around and to complement.
That core has now fragmented. And I don’t think they’re quite sure of what to do.
This is why they pursued Tex so hard.
But even with how good their farm system is they only have one prospect who has potential star quality in their upper division – Lars Anderson. That’s it.
They’ve done a very good job producing above average to good players from their system but it’s very tough to depend on any system to be the source of truly special talent, unless you are picking at the top of the draft.
The challenges the Sox are now faced with are entirely different than the ones Henry/Lucchino and Epstein were facing when they first took over.
No need to needle us with Pudge comparisons!
Drive 4-5,
Ya, I get it with Smoltz and injuries…but still, that is half what Pettitte was offered and a third of Pettitte is asking for.
We need a back of the rotation starter. Doesn’t have to be Pettitte.
I don’t like Garland, but as a 5th starter, I’m fine with him. He did win a WS and pitched decently didn’t he?
“Its hard to argue for Lowe over Pettitte especially when Pettitte only wants one year, but why wouldn’t the Yankees take a risk on someone like Smoltz who was only asking for $5 million and one year…or what about Garland?”
A major plus for doing a deal with Andy is that is for only one year. You aren’t going to get Garland for one year, and IMHO Andy is better anyway.
You don’t want to give another multi-year deal to a starter. That would block all our minor league pitching, starting with Hughes. That’s a huge negative, and it is worth paying Andy a premium to avoid that.
Or, as I said before, go with Hughes and get Cameron.
SJ- Couldn’t agree more the only retired numbers in this era are Torre(6), Jeter(2), Mo(42 retired universally).
“He has been a very good player. I don’t think he’s the best catcher of his generation. I think that honor goes to Pudge.”
Ah, but Pudge was clearly on the juice. Jorge did his accomplishments free from steroids. That gives him the edge in my book.
Also, something about your post got me thinking GB. What you were talking about ‘getting speechless with tears in their eyes’ might not be as possible with the current day players. With the increased media coverage we know EVERYTHING about them. EVERYTHING. Every flaw, every quirk, everything to make them human just like us. Alex Rodriguez is the greatest player I have ever seen. Can do just about anything on the baseball field. Shoot, I’ve seen him hit a bomb to right center where he didn’t even know where the ball went leaving his bat. How incredible is that?!?!?! But I’ve read all the media stories about his divorce and Madonna relationship and bashing him because of his contract and etc. His reputation and image have been tarnished to some degree. Made to seem more human. Would Mickey have had the same effect on people with today’s ridiculous media coverage? The Babe? I don’t know if they would have. I just don’t know. I do know ARod – stats alone – is on their level. And I think that gets him a monument.
SJ44,
I did forget about Pudge.Pudge was the better of the 2.You’re right.
Well, maybe they can combine retiring #20 for both Jorge and Horace Clarke.
You KNOW you’re old if you remember Horace Clarke’s number! lol
Eeep. Go out for the afternoon and the comment thread gets so long you can’t follow it!
Right now, I can see Jeter getting a monument and _maybe_ Rivera (we still undervalue closers).
I see plaques for Posada, maybe O’Neill and maybe Andy.
And, of course, Joe Torre.
Anyone else is too young.
GB7
Jeter has been at that status for years now.
Retire Tino or O’Neil? – IMO – no way
Wasn’t there a statue of Giambi at first base last year?
Rebecca,
I continue to talk about sheets because he would be the best signing we could make and really the only other signing I want the yanks to make this off season. And alot of people pointed out why sheets is a bad signing but a lot of people are wrong too. And this is all a matter of opinion anyway – there is no guaranteed proof of what sheets would give us.
Trisha,
Your comment about agreeing with whatever the yanks do because the organization knows way more than you is pretty ignorant. One, why do we even have a blog if everyone should just agree with whatever they do and dont do? What is the point of discussing our thoughts and opinions? Two, I have news for you – the yankees organization has been wrong many, many times. They are not always right. I couldnt even count all the mistakes the yankees organization has made int he off season in the last ten year.
Who in the world would say that harang’s contract isnt worth it. He didnt even make 7 mil last year. Yes, last year he had an off year by his standards but look at the three years prior.
Sunny,
Pavano did have a pretty bad history before the yankees signed him. However, none of the injuries occurred the year before we signed him when he was an all star. That is the thing about using current status to determine future performance – pavano pitched to a 3 era with no injuries the year prior for over 200 innings. What did that predict? Burnett is healthy right now and sheets is not but that means nothing. Everyone thinks just because sheets is not healthy currently and burnett has been healthy for a year that burnett is worth 80 million and sheets isnt worth a bag of balls.
SJ,
Okay so let me get this straight. Sheets went onto the dl with a forearm muscle tear in late september and has not played baseball since. Further, no other injury outside of that one was mentioned until this week. Now, teams are worried about his back, shoulder and forearm – i know you didnt make up the news story but doesnt that seem weird to you? I dont believe everything i hear especially when it makes no sense and this doesnt make much.
Finally, mlbtraderumors reported only two days ago on january sixth that adam mccalvy (a milwaukee sports reporter) wrote an article discussing the brewers interest in re-signing ben sheets. Now, you tell me they offered sheets 14 mil in arbitration because they knew he wouldnt re-sign and they would get draft picks out of it and maybe thats true. yOU tell me ben sheets rejected 14 mil because he knew he was seriously injured (his back, shoulder, arm or whatever) and wanted to get one last payday by hoping the team who signed him wouldnt be wise enough to notice anything in his records and that is a huge stretch but i guess that could be true. You tell me the yanks wanted to offer him 30 mil for two years in mid december and then, saw his medical records and changed his mind and that could be true.
But now, the milwaukee brewers – the team ben sheets has been on his entire career for 8 years who know him better than any other team in BASEBALL and know every single injury he has ever had dont think his injuries or future history is that precarious that they are willing to re-sign him. To me, that is a definite sign that this entire sheets is the riskiest free agent in the world idea is being completely overblown by the media.
Also, its pretty difficult to pitch 200 innings try to pitch through the last week in september when you have major injuries to your back, shoulder and forearm all at the same time. I would say its damn near impossible. And it he didnt get his injuries during the season when exactly did he get him? When the first one was actually reported on January sixth? I dont think so.
Thoughts on Andy:
Maybe the players, who came up from the minors with Andy would be nice enough to restructure their contracts to free up extra money to resign Andy-It’s done by magnanimous players in football and basketball in order to better their teams, but selfish baseball players wouldn’t want any part of it!!!!
Maybe the Yankees remember that while mulling trading for Santana, Pettitte swooped in, afraid the 16M might have been taken off the table if the Yanks got Santana, thereby destroying any chance in trading and signing another expensive lefty free agent pitcher.
Thoughts on Smoltz:
Very surprised that he didn’t go back to the Braves, but with a bad shoulder and elbow history, maybe the Braves just couldn’t take a chance, knowing Smoltz won’t pitch at 80%.
On Giambi:
Essentially playing for 10M this year, due to a nice 5M gift from the Yankees.
The Mad Prince in Pinstripes,
Garland did pitch well for the White Sox in the WS,but I dont think he’s our answer. If thats the case I’d rather have a Spring Training audition for the spot with our kids.
g love that is hilarious! best (guest?) post of the month so far!
That’s Comedy!
yanks want to trade nady not swisher reports the san fransisco chronicle
MLBTR
Henry Schulman of the San Francisco Chronicle heard from a good source that Yankees GM Brian Cashman wants to keep Nick Swisher and trade Xavier Nady. Would Nady make sense for the Giants at first base? Schulman doesn’t think so, as the Nady hasn’t played the position much and is unlikely to sign an extension with Scott Boras as his agent. Nady will be eligible for free agency after the ‘09 season.
Boston signed Penny and Smoltz but not Schilling. Wonder if anyone takes a chance on Schilling?
Of the 16 retired numbers, the one that doesn’t belong there is Billy Martin’s number 1. If Ralph Houk and Mel Stottlemyre’s aren’t, no way that Billy Martin deserves it.
CB-
Good news for US!!!!!!
The Sox did produce a superstar. They just traded him for another one (namely, Beckett)
thats the right call, trade nady and keep swisher imo
Im sorry adam mccalvy works for mlb.com not a milwaukee newspaper – I misread it. But my point still stands.
Henry Schulman of the San Francisco Chronicle heard from a good source that **Yankees GM Brian Cashman wants to keep Nick Swisher and trade Xavier Nady.** Would Nady make sense for the Giants at first base? Schulman doesn’t think so, as the Nady hasn’t played the position much and is unlikely to sign an extension with Scott Boras as his agent. Nady will be eligible for free agency after the ‘09 season.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/01/yankees-want-to.html
“Wasn’t there a statue of Giambi at first base last year?”
Good one, Nick!
‘The very good players: O’Neill, Tino, and Bernie, along with Pettitte and Posada, are not retired number worthy.”
I agree. But what criteria is being used for “retiring” numbers. Although I greatly admired the following Yankees, its hard to accept that their performances were so superior to others that their numbers were retired:
Billy Martin (neither as a player or manager)
Roger Maris
Don Mattingly
Elston Howard
“In the meantime the chowder-heads up there can all scream and shout “we got smoltz!”, but when the pitcher you get is on the wrong side of 40 just off shoulder surgery it might turn out to be 5.5 million flushed down the Charles.”
more specifically, didnt Smoltz just come off labrum surgery, and isnt that the most serious injury/surgery a pitcher can possibly have, and one from which many pitchers never truly recover? I remember that kid Anibal Sanchez who Boston trAded to Florida, the one who threw a no hitter.. he had labrum surgery after the year Girardi was there and I’m still not sure if he is even back pitching yet, never mind doing so effectively. And he was a kid…Smoltz is 42! I keep reading on places like MLBTR how easy his incentives will be to reach, but I’m wondering will he even ever be able to pitch again?? Am I wrong to think it isn’t a given that he will, considering his age & nature of his injury?
I agree, in the end this signing was done mainly for the name. And great analysis about where the Red Sox stand now and how it is similar to the Yankees after 2000. I hadnt even thought of most of that but its very true.
GB7
I’m inclined to agree with your take on Martin.
How is The Boss remembered????
Sheets-Would be very leary, but if available for a Smoltz type deal, the Yankees should take a chance, after doing every test to determine if his elbow, shoulder, and back are fine.
Aaron
good job on beating me of posting that article. lol
Nothing more useless or more irresistible than a Hall of Fame debate.
From the 1996 to 2001 Yanks, I see Clemens (despite it all), Rivera, Jeter, Bernie and Jorge, plus Torre. Clemens does purgatory for a year or two, and Mo and Jeter on the first ballot. Bernie and Jorge will take some time but they’ll make it.
I’d put up all the numbers but Roger’s. Not for any recent stuff, but I think he’s too much of a Red Sox to go on the wall.
Drive,
I think I was loaded on cough syrup when I posted that at 1:43am, lol.
CB,
I think Boston losing Tex was in effect the front office losing a crutch. If they had signed him and not won a world series, they could have said “see, we went out and spent all the money and got the big dog we wanted, but it wasn’t meant to be”.
Now that team has to win or the front office will get slammed with criticisms of being cheap and fleecing their high paying customers.
What happens next is they go into next off season and spend, spend, spend, but not as wisely as they might normally have.
It can be the start of a vicious cycle and can lead to panic trades where some of the young talent they are hoarding get moved in the wrong deal.
We’ve seen it happen here and on other teams.
The biggest mistake that team ever made this off season was put up billboards in the media claiming Tex was theirs. If they didn’t this, it would be less of a hit for them. If their intentions weren’t that public, they just would have been accused of being in it to drive up the price for the evil Yankees.
Instead, their fans are left feeling they lost something and I think Baldelli and Smoltz are supposed to make them think they just got something.
They did, but they are two players with big red flags.
Losing Manny was huge. Seeing Ortiz decline in addition to Lowell (and possibly Varitek if he comes back to them) will be even tougher pills to swallow.
There’s just no way that team can be sitting there telling themselves that Manny/Ortiz wasn’t the combination that made that whole thing deadly. You couldn’t pitch to that lineup. Those two were always lurking ready to break the inning open.
They have some great players there no doubt, but I think these kind of big name high risk moves have a tendency of not working.
1976…Yanks buy Vida Blue for 105 million….Boston buys Joe Rudi and Rollie Fingers for a million each as Finley was going to lose them to the new free agency program….Bowie Kuhn tells the old man tough luck, no sale…..Yanks then make the big trade to Baltimore…..Rudy May, Paul Blair , Grant Jackson and Elrod Hendricks come to the Bronx….Killed the A’S for years
GLove has been kicking butt with the posts last night and today.
Very nice work!
“Henry Schulman of the San Francisco Chronicle heard from a good source that Yankees GM Brian Cashman wants to keep Nick Swisher and trade Xavier Nady.”
Good news. Smart move. Not that I like the idea of trading Nady per se, but trading Swisher would be dumb.
I dont want to trade with SF though. I’m not sold on Sanchez, especially not if Harang is attainable from Cincy, and other than that they are like us in the minors, pitching rich but short on up and coming impact position players.
Check that Vida Blue..1.5 million
Andy Petite has 178 wins as a Yankee(4th best). 21 game winner in ‘96. Every time he took the mound he gave it everything he had.
I understand debating he’s worth this or not worth that. I dont get the anger towards one of our best pitchers all time.
regarding the retired numbers, I don’t care what anyone says, #9 is half retired for Nettles too in my mind
Nick in SF
January 8th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Wasn’t there a statue of Giambi at first base last year?
————————————————————
For the last 7 years. There’s going to be a lot of PO’d pigeons in the Bronk for years.
sorry Ed, you can have the next one.. haha
PAT M.
Whew, had me double taking there for a minute with the 105 million figure.
“regarding the retired numbers, I don’t care what anyone says, #9 is half retired for Nettles too in my mind ”
I second that.
is that why Nettles left? they retired #9 during the middle of the season, correct?
Ed-
Supposedly the Giants have been rumored not to want to trade for a hitter that will be a free agent next year, BUT IMO a deal could possibly be made in return for free agent to be switch-hitter Randy Winn, who would offer a .300 average in the bottom third of the lineup. Giants need power, Yankees need better outfield defense, OBP, and players who can get on base.
Also would like this trade to expand to include lefty Sanchez for some of our minor league arms.
aaron i actually beat u to it hahaha lol :]
“I understand debating he’s worth this or not worth that. I dont get the anger towards one of our best pitchers all time.”
I don’t get it it either, but I can tell you there sure is a lot of it on this board.
“I think Boston losing Tex was in effect the front office losing a crutch. If they had signed him and not won a world series, they could have said “see, we went out and spent all the money and got the big dog we wanted, but it wasn’t meant to be”.”
G. Love,
Not sure about that. I think you hit on it more later on in your post.
Somehow there’s this perception that’s developed that the reason why boston won 2 world series was brilliant management.
That’s just nonsense but that seems to be pretty widely implied.
I’m sure that they themselves now that they won due to Mann, Papi and Becket/Schilling.
I think they wanted Tex so badly because they know that their core of special players has fallen apart and that core needs to be reconstituted in order for the complementary players to really retain their effectiveness.
I think that’s why they wanted Tex so bad. They wanted him as a cornerstone. Youkilis isn’t a cornerstone. Pedroia is no. Ellsbury – no way.
And besides Lars Anderson they don’t have any true potential cornerstone players in their upper division. They don’t even have that many power hitting prospects – lots of good athletes but not a lot of plus power hitters (though what franchise does? Texas? maybe florida???).
I think that’s why. They have no way of replacing that core and they know that’s what drove them to winning.
Garland made 12 mil last year and is coming off a pretty bad year – i would much prefer sheets or pettitte back and garland would make a distant three option. I dont know what garland is asking for but if it is anything over 8 mil, i think we should pass. Not only was his era extremely high but his peripherals were terrible as well – he had 40 more hits than innings pitched. he never could strike many out and he is getting worse at it every year. Also after finally becoming a solid pitcher but limiting his walk totals, the totals are slowly going back up each season. His era plus last year was 91. Sheets was at 139. Pettitte’s was at 98. i think we could get pettitte or sheets for around the same price who both have much better quality arms, less hits and more strikeouts.
I dont really like Wolf either. Meche is a decent option. I like trading for Harang and i think at a decent price (nady and prospect) it would be like highway robbery. I think if we limit his innings- he will have a comeback season.
PAT M.
January 8th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
1976…Yanks buy Vida Blue for 105 million….Boston buys Joe Rudi and Rollie Fingers for a million each as Finley was going to lose them to the new free agency program….Bowie Kuhn tells the old man tough luck, no sale…..Yanks then make the big trade to Baltimore…..Rudy May, Paul Blair , Grant Jackson and Elrod Hendricks come to the Bronx….Killed the A’S for years
———————————————————–
As good as Rudy May was for a couple of years for NYY, losing Scottie McGregor and Tippy Martinez killed the Yanks for years.
yankeefan91 (sign manny asap hes getting cheaper lol) January 8th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
aaron i actually beat u to it hahaha lol :]
I am proud of you. ha
Well… After reading several of these posts, it seems that Mr. Pettitte is a bible-thumping, money-grubbing, liar who is lucky that most of his career has been on an offensive powerhouse of a team.
I’d lower the offer to 8 mil…
Looking at the beginning of this thread, I see the same arguments being used against Oliver Perez. They’re overblown.
Saying Perez only pitched well against us is as short-sighted as saying Burnett only pitched well against us. Look at the breakdown of his games last year. To begin with, he was excellent against Atlanta, Philly, and Florida. Those are the Mets’ division rivals. They had good lineups (the Phillies’ had, arguably, the best in baseball, and he had dominant starts against them) and their games against the Mets drew a lot of attention. The Mets-Phillies rivalry has become one of the most heated in baseball, and Mets-Braves is one that goes back to Atlanta’s championship days. And, yes, the Mets-Yankees games still count; again, one of baseball’s great rivalries. Perez handled those starts just fine. You don’t think he can handle Yankees-Red Sox? The guy is competitive. He raises his game in big spots, and he has the raw stuff to get through the AL East’s lineups; you can’t say the same of Garland, Sanchez, Wolf, et al.
For whatever reason, he loses it against bad teams. Those are important games. It would be up to Posada (who I think would make an excellent match with Perez) to keep him focused in those games. It’s also vital to carry at least one long reliever in case he (or any starter) is chased early. But as I noted a few days ago, out of 34 starts last year, 17 were quality starts and another 7 were borderline quality (4 runs over 6, 2 or 3 runs over a few outs short of 6). I’d take that from a 4th or 5th starter. The idea that he’s horrible most of the time is also overblown.
The fact that he’s a Boras client does not equate to a high cost. Do you think Varitek is going to find that Posada money Boras was talking about in November? Price tags are dropping all over baseball, and Perez is no different. Teams are looking at cheaper or more consistent alternatives first, they’re reluctant to give up a 1st or 2nd round pick to take a gamble on Perez, and every signing takes another team off his suitor list. I see an opportunity here. A 27 year old guy with big stuff and big stage mentality who could be had a lot cheaper than we all thought before the economy broke down and who would only cost a 4th round pick because we’ve already signed three Type A’s. It seems like a perfect fit in every way.
The fact that a long term deal would lock up rotation spots? The worst argument of all. If this signing ensures we have 5 rotation spots locked up for the next few years, how is that a bad thing? Isn’t that exactly what teams are trying to do with their rotations? You don’t pass on an opportunity like this because you’re planning to give away the rotation spot in 2010 or 2011. What if Phil Hughes struggles in AAA? What if he sustains another injury, this time an arm injury? What if Joba’s drinking problems turn out to be worse than they appear right now? What if his arm problems are worse than we all think? Last year should have taught us that these prospects are too unpredictable to guarantee rotation spots in any season, current or future. You start by finding guys with track records, guys you can rely on to give you 30+ starts, you try to stack your rotation with as many of those guys as you can, and you worry about the prospects when their time comes.
Best case scenario, Burnett stays off the DL, Joba excels, Wang bounces back from his injury without a hitch, and Perez thrives in the Bronx. Five sure bets in your rotation? This is a bad thing? If, likewise, Hughes returns to his 2006 form, think of what that would do to his trade value. Look at what we’ve seen top prospects get back in trades the last couple of years. Too many starters = insurance and trade chips, never a bad thing. It’s far more likely that things won’t work out that well, though. In 2010 you look at your starters and decide who gets a spot and who needs to be moved. Maybe Joba takes a step back. Maybe Hughes struggles. If Perez is a big disappointment and Hughes is incredible in AAA? I’m sure you could find a few NL teams who would take a chance on Perez, especially on a cheap contract. Thinking now about where the rotation is going to be in 2010 is foolish, because you can’t predict what’s going to happen with any of these pitchers.
guys, about the things posted on MLB Trade Rumors, just remember, Cashman is the STEALTHMASTER.
While I highly doubt that Cashman would purposely float something out to mislead people-that seems like a Boras tactic-he isn’t likely to admit to anything until a deal is done.
There were not many of us that had a clue before the Nady/Marte deal was pulled off-the same with Burnett and Teixiera.
I do think the Yankees will probably trade Nady or Swisher, but I won’t jump to any conclusions.
If Cashman can get a useful major league player for Nady he will deserve a lot of credit, but I don’t think he will.
We didn’t give up much (sorry, Brandon!) to get him. and after his arbitration raise he’ll be fully priced. I don’t see that fetching a lot, certainly not a starting pitcher that you would actually want to see in our rotation.
Plus, Nady and Swisher give us some depth. We haven’t had that in a while.
Tarheelyank and Wave Your Hat,
The anger toward Pettitte comes from the public statements time and again last year of it not being about the money and them him making it about the money. Do we know it’s usually about the money with ballplayers? Of course. But don’t tell us it’s not about the money and then make it about the money. Like I said earlier, that means you’re either a liar or incompetent. Neither of which is a good thing.
Long-time Pet supporter here. But I’m beginning to turn on him now.
This is taking too long. And maybe keeping Yanks from other needed moves. Haven’t been on board in a while, so I don’t know if this has been discussed. But with all the talk about CF and fourth starters, there is still absolutely no one capable of filling in competently for any length of time if Jeter, A-Rod or Cano goes down.
Yanks keep skimping on bench, signing ridiculous fringe non-entities. But a solid utility infielder who is adept at three positions and can handle bat, bunt, hit and run is a need that has been neglected for years. Betemit was a joke. Ransom, given the chance, could rival his K numbers. And the Yankees seem to have a total disregard for the value of this position. Frankly, I don’t understand why they traded Alberto (AG) Gonzalez.
At this point, I might be willing to say goodbye to Andy and get a top-flight back up infielder and maybe a Randy Wolf or Garland on a one-year deal. But basically, I think the combo of Joba, Hughes and Aceves/Coke can provide the 350 innings needed out of the four and five slots.
BBB-
“I dont want to trade with SF though. I’m not sold on Sanchez, especially not if Harang is attainable from Cincy, and other than that they are like us in the minors, pitching rich but short on up and coming impact position players.”
Harang is owed 11M 2009, 12.5M 2010 and club option for 12.75M in 2011 with a 2M buyout. Looking at his 6-17 record, WHIP, BA against doesn’t instill much confidence in wanting to tie up a rotation spot for 2-3 years.
Cash didn’t float anything about Nady vs. Swisher. Someone who tried to get Swisher did.
Tarheelyank,
iTS simple – he left a better offer from the yanks to go to houston. He signed a new contract with the yanks right before the mitchell report came out without telling any one he was on it and pretended like it was all okay after the fact when he apologized even thought it meant nothing at the time. He claimed at the end of last season that he wants to come back to the yanks and pitch in the new stadium in its opening season and he doesnt care what kind of money he makes and then, he refuses to sign for 10 mil after the worst season of his career and with no better offers. I dont think people hate him or anything as he has done alot for the fans but he is certainly frustrating right now as he is making it all about the money exactly what he said he wouldnt do. He is basically admitting that he was lying. So the fans hear about cheating and then, he pitches horribly and he lies and all of a sudden he isnt our favorite person right now. iT REALLY isnt all that surprising if you think about it.
I hope the yanks don’t simply trade nady or swisher to clear the proverbial “log jam” of players.
They could use the depth given their age.
They’ve really never made too many of those kinds of deal or any salary dumps so I only expect them to make a trade if it makes sense.
That said I agree that they should move Nady before Swisher.
CB,
They haven’t come this far and worked this hard this OS to make a bad trade.
CB and G Love:
Could a coherent argument be made that in 2004 it wasn’t so much that the Red Sox won as it was that the Yankees lost?
After all, the Yankees were up 3-0…
I know 2007 is a different thing entirely, but just some food for thought.
Stupid Rudy May. I traded a Tony Gwynn rookie card for a Rudy May card.
This is the same link I posted further up in the thread, but if people think Cashman needs to think outside the box to sweeten the deal for Pettitte…
http://www.flickr.com/photos/92472245@N00/3180546378/
in light of what has been said about the yankees lately allow me to offer this:
george steinbrenner is a baseball genius.
not that he knows anything about the game of baseball, but that he has outdone anyone of any era in the buisness of baseball.
while other owners like carl pohlad (rip) pinched pennies, fought the union (unsucessfully) and cried about the big money contracts, george knew, like p.t. barnum knew, that stars and celebrity (at least baseball celebrity) sells. he knew that even the extravagance of the contracts creates more publicity and thus more revenue. and he immediately recognized free agency as his chance to bring the biggest stars to the biggest stage.
george always realized that these contracts were investments in the yankees and investments in baseball and since he made the biggest investments, he has reaped the greatest rewards. and now the colosus built on george’s buisness plan is crushing other teams in revenue and george’s son is continuing the increadible investment in the family product.
i never would have thought id ever say this back in say, 1985, but thank you geore steinbrenner, baseball genius!
Phil,
I agree with that sentiment. I don’t anticipate them making a useless trade like the Cubs did with DeRosa. That’s exactly the kind of deal I don’t want to see.
If they can get a productive arm or even a good outfield/SS prospect then I’d consider it.
But, yes I agree – they don’t make useless trades just to off load guys.
I wonder what a package of Nady, Kennedy,Veras, + middle relief prospect would bring back?
Oh Mercy CB…
I just sent a $28,480 check to Yawkee Way for my 4 seats yeaterday as it is due by the 16th. Based on your posts I am going to run out of here and see if I can’t track that UPS letter down…
I do agree with many posts that the Sox will really feel the Manny loss this year. The entire lineup will be pitched to differently.
Take Care -dennis
Wow Pete must love this, he puts up one post about Petitte and the blog goes nuts. Over 600 responses and counting. Way to go Pete good job. I see everyone has an opinion on Andy and I will be writing about this also on my blog. Andy just needs to make a decision soon and get this over with.
CB-
Good post about Boston-Maybe they’d like to have Hanley Ramirez back for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell, as their cornerstone player.
Yankee traded,
He was physically abused by dusty baker and that is the reason for his one bad year. And besides, look at what pettitte is asking for right now to be our fourth or fifth starter. Harang;s contract would be a huge bargain. Look at his three previous years before he finally broke down due to dusty – all over 200 innings pitched, all under 3 eras. 2 years of over 200 strike outs. All his peripherals are very solid with 2007 being outstanding.
His record is meaningless last season – who cares about the record? The team wasnt good. His peripherals actually arent all that bad. He pitched less innings because he was burnt out but his walk totals remained about the same. i REALLY doubt that last year is a sign of things to come for harang. i think it is pretty clear it was a sign that he wasnt ready for 3 consecutive seasons of pitching a total of almost 700 innings after his rookie year. But he was outstanding in those first three seasons. He is young at only 30 years old so there is no reason to think he should start to decline yet. A trade for harang would be by far the best thing that cashman could do right now. He is almost a lock for 200 innings next season and im sure they will be 200 quality innings. Getting him now is ideal because his value has never been lower but his stuff is still nasty.
“Trisha,
Your comment about agreeing with whatever the yanks do because the organization knows way more than you is pretty ignorant.”
Only if you feel threatened by it Dave because you feel you know more than they do. Do you?
“One, why do we even have a blog if everyone should just agree with whatever they do and dont do? What is the point of discussing our thoughts and opinions?”
The point in discussing opinions is that it gives people who believe they are GMs or who believe they have baseball savvy an outlet to try to impress others and get them to their way of thinking, I guess! But ultimately no matter how much people agree or disagree it has little bearing on what the Yankees will do. So I tend to take all posts with a grain of salt, mine included. I believe what I believe but hardly feel I corner the market on any great truth. I have always put my faith and trust in the experts in any field. There are none here, either writing the blog or responding. It doesn’t mean people aren’t bright and creative, it means that they are mere fans voicing mere opinions and operating with far less information than the baseball organizations have!
“Two, I have news for you – the yankees organization has been wrong many, many times. They are not always right. I couldnt even count all the mistakes the yankees organization has made int he off season in the last ten year.”
Hmmm. Doesn’t this make you in effectr nothing more than a Monday morning quarterback? Isn’t it the player who has to deliver once the deal is signed? Doesn’t the organization do the very best the can with the very best information they have at hand and then leave the rest to fate? Of course they do. Nobody could have predicted Contreras breakdown or Vasquez breakdown or Ted Lilly’s yips or Ricky Ledee’s problems or Jeff Weaver’s less-than-stellar outings or Chuck Knoblauch’s yips – or even Pavano’s trauma. After all, we wrestled Pavano away from other suitors. Same with Contreras.
I ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY trust the Yankee organization and the choices it makes. I ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY *DO NOT* trust any of the deals made here. Because face it. People here are truly nothing more than fans, some more informed than others, but still nothing more than fans. That’s why we’re posting on blogs and not sitting with the Yankee braintrust making decisions.
And that’s just how I see it.
Nady before Swisher is the right way to go if you have to trade one. I like the depth, though.
If just clearing Nady’s salary would open salary space for Cameron, then giving him away would be OK with me.
bottom line makes a good point. We have nothing right now behind ARod, Jeter or Cano. You can’t argue it from a net wins viewpoint, but from a risk reduction viewpoint I think there is a good argument for passing on the extra starter and getting a good back-up for them.
I guess the problem would be finding one.
rodg12
he left to the Astros for LESS MONEY because he didn’t feel wanted or appreciated. After paying CC and AJ all that money dont you think it’s kind of slap at Andy that they are plaing hardball over a couple million. Maybe it’s more about respect then money. I will repeat myself 178 WINS AS A YANKEE.
I know I am going to get crushed for this and the Keebler Elf jokes will come flying…However a ROY,AS and MVP is solid for a non superstar and non cornerstone player two years into MLB.
-dennis
Yankees arent trading Nady to move salary for Cameron
“I ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY trust the Yankee organization and the choices it makes. I ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY DO NOT trust any of the deals made here.”
Trisha, I like your manifesto! You should see if these outfits come in pinstripes:
http://tinyurl.com/935dvj
CB-
“I wonder what a package of Nady, Kennedy,Veras, + middle relief prospect would bring back?”
Winn and Sanchez?
Scott Olsen and Lastings Milledge?
Bedard/Morrow and Andy Chavez?
Michael Cuddyer and Brendan Harris or Craig Breslow?
Ryan Spillborghs and Jeff Francis/Jason Grilli?
Any of those interest you?
Trisha: You can’t control the decisions the Yankees make, but that doesn’t mean you should trust them!
Part of the fun of being a fan is criticizing the deals they make or don’t make, and backing that up with statistics or in my case, gut instinct.
Everyone knows that the Yankees’ intent is to win the World Series, but that doesn’t necessarily matter.
As doctor House says,
“Right and Wrong exist. Just because you don’t know what right is doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.”
Sometimes the Yankees make the wrong decision, and they themselves don’t know it (and, of course, neither do we).
Nick from SF…..with the brush back ……Beware Tricia…..
Dennis,
I too mourn your loss of $28,000. Though if you disagree with my post please tell me how. I’m interested to hear.
I do apologize if it came off as if i were saying things were hopeless for the sox this season.
My main point was that as an organization the Sox have very different challenges now than they did in say 2003 or even 2005. Challenges that are much closer to the ones the Yankees have been dealing with – and dealing with badly since 2000.
You guys had a very special group of players there – Manny/Papi was one of the all time great 3-4 combo’s and I do think the core of your success was due to 1)that combo, 2)having the dominant beckett/schilling and 3)then the core of very good players complementing those superstars.
I also do find it puzzling how much credit the management gets for assembling those teams rather than the players for actually winning the games, but perhaps I’m wrong on that.
It’s just not easy for any team to consistently produce superstars through the draft/minors. It’s just not – especially when your picking at the end of the draft.
The Sox have done just about as good a job as possible with building internally. But outside of Lars there aren’t any obvious power hitters who could provide a semblance of Manny and Papi have. Not a knock on the organization – just speaks to how difficult those kinds of players are to get. Thus the pursuit of Tex, IMO.
I’ve said this before – the AL East is a toss up. I don’t think the yankees signing these players makes them a prohibitive favorite in any way. Nor do I think that boston not signing tex makes them winning the division unlikely.
It’s just interesting to watch the challenges that your organization is dealing with.
yankee trader
“I wonder what a package of Nady, Kennedy,Veras, + middle relief prospect would bring back?”
Bedard/Morrow and Andy Chavez?
i would do dat trade
Confucious,
Oliver perez wont thrive in the bronx. He was a mediocre pitcher last year with over 100 walks in 194 innings. That is to NL lineups with pitchers instead of dhes. Imagine how many walks he will have when he is pitching against a lot tougher lineups. He hurts himself and frankly, that is not the type of pitcher we need right now. Also, 11 out of his 34 starts he never made it to the sixth inning. He also came out in the first inning once, the second inning once, the third inning once and the fourth inning two times – those types of games really kill the bullpen. Perez had an era of 4.22 laast season in the NL. At best, that would translate to around a 4.7 in the NL. We could do better than that with our young players or a number of other free agents out there. And because he is a boras client, he will ask for more than he deserves and im sure a multi year deal.
“However a ROY,AS and MVP is solid for a non superstar and non cornerstone player two years into MLB.”
Fair point. I should have been clearer. Given that Pedroia is not a power hitter I would want to see him consistently produce seasons as he did in 2009 before I’d call him a cornerstone.
In 2008 Pedroia was around 40 runs better than a league average 2B. And he did that without being a power hitter – that’s actually pretty rare.
So I’d want to see him playing at that level for longer than he has. That is my my concern with Pedroia.
I’d also buy Papelbon as a cornerstone player though I didn’t say it earlier as in general closer tend to burn out very quickly and it’s difficult to count on them as cornerstones.
If Lester has another season like he did in 2008 then I’d absolutely count him as a cornerstone guy.
But again, my original point was more directed towards power hitters.
Trader, that’s more than any of those packages are worth. Take out the Yankee prospect and the Washington package might be worth it. The problem is that Washington prefers a left handed bat.
CB.
HA. I was just joking around re: getting my dough back. That is the best check I write every year. It has been a blast to watch the Sox develop the “good” but not “great” players. My seats are great as Rebecca can attest to as I sent her friends in Boston a couple seats last year to a game.
I do not disagree re: core players. I do however think a few baseball people would consider Papelbon, Youk and Pedroia top 1-2 players at their positions in the AL. That is pretty tough to develop as you well know. -dennis
Yankee Trader,
If there was any way to pry marrow from seattle I would. that said I don’t think it would be.
tarheelyank,
You dont make deals based on what people gave you, you pay them for what they will give you over the course of the contract you are drawing up. Andy isnt as good as he was in the 90s. He isnt as good as he was in 2007. the yanks have payed him a ton of money in his career so i DONT think it is disrespectful to drop his salary to 10 million. That is even more than he should be making next season already but i guess that is for the memories. aJ BURNETT and CC sabathia are better than pettitte and more is expected of them as they are being signed on to be the ace and 3rd starter. Andy is not.
“I ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY trust the Yankee organization and the choices it makes. I ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY DO NOT trust any of the deals made here.”
Brave statement here. I don’t fully agree but it serves to balance some of the dreamy suggestions made on this board.
Nick,
Have you ever had a Moose bar? I haven’t…wonder what they are like.
that is a hilarious picture though. Who is the bobblehead supposed to be?
It’s time for Pettitte to show some decency and loyalty to the Yankees in return for all the support they gave him after him admitted to using HGH last year to disgrace himself and the organization.
Pettitte knew damn well that he was in the Mitchell Report before he signed the $16 million deal last year; yet nothing stopped him from taking the money or from giving the team a heads up. The Yankees had every right to be mad as hell at Pettitte for deceiving them, yet they did the classy thing and stood by him.
Now on top of all that, he pitched poorly last year, especially down the stretch. Yet the Yankees are offering him much more than he’d get anywhere else.
It’s time for this so-called “great guy” the one that so many Yankee fans like to defend as an honorable Christian to finally do the right thing and give the Yankees the same respect they gave him.
Otherwise, I’d ban him for life from the Yankees… no Old Timers Days.. no nothing for this ingrate!
Dennis: You’ll be glad to know my friend had a great time at that game!
Rebecca.
Great. I will look at the calendaar again this year and contact you to give them another game.
Karma is real!
Hope you are enjoying Fordham!
Kind regards. -dennis
Dave,
He thrives against good teams with good lineups. He struggles against bad lineups. If it were the other way around, I’d think his AL ERA would be significantly higher. His meltdown games are going to hurt no matter which league they’re in.
As for the length of his starts, 194 innings last year and 177 the year before is not much to scoff at for a back end starter, especially since Willie was often questioned for giving him a quick hook at times. You can look at the box scores of some of his 5+ inning games and wonder if he should have come out. Sometimes Willie would get trigger happy and pull him out after one 5th inning walk.
What he and Boras ask for is not likely to be close to what he gets.
“Hmmm. Doesn’t this make you in effectr nothing more than a Monday morning quarterback? Isn’t it the player who has to deliver once the deal is signed? Doesn’t the organization do the very best the can with the very best information they have at hand and then leave the rest to fate? Of course they do.”
I never said the yanks were not trying to make the best decisions for the team. I just said they don’t make the correct decisions a good portion of the time. So, why not disagree with a decision they make if you believe with the information you have on hand that it is the wrong one? Isnt that the point of the blog? Isnt that the reason pete has the whole comments section instead of just making posts every day by himself. So we could agree or disagree with the information presented to us by the team and discuss why and to even disagree with each other.
You may absolutely agree with everything the yankees do but why follow them blindly? Why not have a little fun and try to form your own opinions. Do a little of your own investigations and see why you think the yankees made the decisions they did or didnt make. i dont think everyone posting here is out to impress other although many probably are. But yes, I do think the point is to pretend like you are the GM of the yankees and talk about what you would do and i also agree that the point is to try to convince others of your opinion and sometimes to form your own opinion only later to be convinced by someone else that you are wrong. You have the right to think whatever you want to think obviously and of course, that is the beauty of this country but it seems like blindly following the yanks no matter what they say or do no matter what really takes away from the experience and the point of the blog here which is really to find information about the yanks but also to question them when you think it is necessary. That is just my opinion.
Rebecca, sorry I am just not that full of myself when it comes to team decisions. Or better stated, I am well aware of my inadequacies, and believing for a second that I or anyone else here might have better information or decision making ability than the Yankees is certainly not one of them.
I’m not suggesting for a minute that people should stop having fun in trying to come up with trades and decisions, just that they should be a lot more in touch with reality in terms of just how much complete information they bring to the table and just how much they truly know. For a person with any humility and self awareness that should hardly be a come down! You all ain’t the Yankee organization nor do you scout the Yankees and have all the inside information they do. Deal with it!
I have total trust in what the Yankees do, realize they are human, also realize that they operate with the very best information available and make their decisions accordingly.
I still get the best chuckles out of the “see I told you so” people. Let’s say for the sake of argument that 50 percent of the fans want a player and 50 percent of the fans do not. Depending on how the player makes out, 50 percent will be yammering about how wrong the other 50 percent were and they will trick themselves into believing that they know more than the Yankee organization because of it!
All a team can do is scout a player and use the best information they have in making a decision. The rest is up to the player, including finding out whether or not the player will wither under the spotlights in the Bronx. But all of that comes after a player is signed.
Nick, I wasn’t brought up in a household where I was told that I was either better than everyone else or knew more than everyone else? Were you? Because they way you come across sometimes makes me think so. And if so, sadly someone lied to you! If you don’t like that I have faith in the deicisions made by the organization, that’s your problem not mine. Again, I have enough self awareness to know that we are here having a good ole time flapping our jaws acting like we know all that when indeed we do not. Our opinions are framed on our likes and dislikes. If there was “absolute truth”, there would be no divergence of opinion. So if I have to err on the side of caution and go in one direction rather than another I will always choose to go with the brains in any operation.
No offense Nick, but on balance they are not here.
GB7-
How about Nady, Kennedy and Veras for Atlanta’s Martin Prado and CF’er Josh Anderson? Fills two needs for us-super utility guy and good fielding, young speedster who hit .300 last year in CF. Gives the Braves another bat with power, a starting pitcher and reliever.
It’s pretty bush league for other gm’s to announce the Yankees intentions.
Although anyone can claim to have inside info, I mean there were people who the media believed to be McCain insiders who said Palin didn’t know Alaska was a continent who turned out to be fakes. You would think if trusted political sources can turn out to be bogus, it’s even more likely that baseball sources are bs as well.
Put me in the “let’s not trade anyone” camp. If we need to trade mid-season it’s a different story.
NHYankee62
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. Andy is defined by his actions both good and bad. So 10mm seems a perfect amount. Higher than the market but less than he wants.
It will probably be settled soon. The issue has divided the blog, showing that no matter how it turns out, Pettitte is a big part of Yankee fans universe.
Someone even said Pudge should not be considered better than Posade as he allegedly took steroids, this same person states that Andy’s drug use was not meant in an illegal way like Bonds and others. This type of simple minded rationalization shows how deep the afffection is for Andy
People who say Pettitte’s value is whatever another team will offer him are missing the point. Pettitte’s leverage is “pay we what I think is fair or I’ll retire.”
Before you say “go ahead” tell me which pitcher on the current $200M payroll has distinguised himself in post season play? I’m not saying CC and Wang won’t, but so far they haven’t.
Even taking them as givens, who starts Games 3 and 4? By the time October roles around Burnett will have long since declared that he’s looking forward to being fully healed by Spring 2010 and Joba will either have exhausted his innings cap or will be likewise rehabbing. Ditto Hughes. That leaves Coke, Aceves, Kennedy or other assorted bruised fruit.
I’d gladly pay a premium to get one year of Andy rather than be locked into a multi-year deal with a twitch like Oli Perez, a gimp like Sheets, or a punching bag like Jon Garland.
We know Pettitte will pitch through pain, we know he won’t be scared under bright lights. How mad will we be if Ian Kennedy craps his pants in a Game 7 because Cash, after spending the best part of half a billion dollars, decides to nickel and dime a proven gamer?
Cash needs to get this done.
Jeff-that was Africa not Alaska.
Until now I thought the $10mil offer to Pettitte was just a litte low. Now, after reading what the Red Sox gave 42 yr old John Smoltz, a guy who pitched a whopping 5 games in ‘08 and won’t pitch again till this June, the $10mil is ridiculously low. Smoltz can basically make $10mil just by being in uniform June- September. Don’t think Pettitte and his agents havent noticed this.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3819298
Dennis: It varies between sadomasochism and amazing.
Trisha, I’m just glad to see you write that you were brought up in a household at all, I was afraid it was a Cashman Collective!
Yankee Trader, good call, lol. I even know that Alaska is not a continent.
“You may absolutely agree with everything the yankees do but why follow them blindly? Why not have a little fun and try to form your own opinions. Do a little of your own investigations and see why you think the yankees made the decisions they did or didnt make.”
But I DO go on my own way. I stated I did not want Pettitte back for love or money. That was certainly contrary to what the Yankees had been saying. I said I wanted Bobby Abreu back and really thought the Yankees should have brought him back – and they haven’t. I stated that Ian Kennedy should not have gotten another shot to pitch for the Yankees – and he did. And I gave reasons for all of the things I just mentioned.
But what I am also willing to state is that in the final analysis I am willing to believe the Yankees decisions trump mine every time in terms of having the necessary information to make any decision at any point in time and certainly have better and more complete information than mine and believe that they are operating with a more global decision-making paradigm where I might be looking at things in a lot more micro fashion. That’s why I post on a blog and they run the organization!
Confucious,
yea but the 1,2,3 and 4 innings games are what killed the mets pen last year which was one of the worst in baseball at the end of the season partly because they were overworked. And you will be hard pressed to find someone else who thinks perez’s era will come down when he gets to the AL because he does better against better lineups. Even if he puts up the exact same numbers that he put up last season i would rather have pettitte or sheets. Of course, i would consider him an option but there are a few other free agents that i wouldnt mind over perez who are more consistent. i would take perez over wolf. Taking him over garland is debatable depending on what they are asking for.
Nick, I for one, think that in some ways you are better than us. Certainly funnier. And less baby seal clubbing.
I would definitely trade for harang over signing perez
Rebecca.
LOL Sounds like rooting for a team in the AL East.
Take Care and good luck. -dennis
Mad Prince: are you being serious? Look at the picture a little closer. And yes, those are my Moose Bars. Think Reece’s Peanut Butter cup in bar form with higher-quality chocolate.
“Trisha, I’m just glad to see you write that you were brought up in a household at all, I was afraid it was a Cashman Collective!”
Nick, I was brought up in a household where we were taught that we didn’t know everything we thought we did and that there were many people out there who knew a heck of a lot more – and that if we listened hard and paid attention we just might accumulate more knowledge – but that if we went around thinking we knew everything, we would remain close-minded and therefore immune to learning more.
Now I think you need to call home for some sahib sahib validation!
Trish, I hear you, but just because you don’t run an organization, doesn’t mean you couldn’t be qualified for it. Yes these people made a career of it and have studied the details of player analysis beyond any of us, but they don’t have super powers or abilities, they just focused on a certain career and with hard work and some degree of luck they have the job. I haven’t played the game 2nd life, but that’s sorta the appeal, you can do any job you want. In the real world, the best 99.9% of us can do is write it on a blog, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t good ideas to be found. Just my two cents.
Dennis: Indeed.
Nick: Have you thought about playing New York?
Vrsce,
I’m well aware that for many their deep affection for Pettitte doesn’t allow them to look at the situation rationally.
You should’ve see of the homers on NYYfans who kept praising Pettitte after he first admitted to using HGH saying that they believed Pettitte when he said he only used it that one time. I told them how naive they all were and that I highly doubted that he only used it once.
Sure enough, Mr. Pettitte finally admitted to using HGH twice even having his daddy involved!
All I’m saying is that Pettitte is not the saint that so many think he is.
I think he’d help the team this year eating eatings as the 5th starter. Especially with Joba on the innings limit, Wang coming off the injury, and risks associated with Burnett.
But it’s time for Pettitte to finally show some decency and sign the damn contract! He is a Yankee and it’s time to start acting like one. Does he want to be part of something special or not? He could pitch in the new Yankee Stadium and help the team win #27. Or he selfishly walk away over a few million bucks.
We’ll see want kind of man Pettitte really is in the coming weeks.
People here still argue with trisha? Seriously? I would have thought everyone had already realized she is one of the greatest North American producers of what Bob Dylan would call an “Idiot Wind.”
That trade is intriguing. Would Atlanta be interested in something like that?
I know they need starters…hmmm.
How important are Anderson and Prado to the Braves future plans?
Nady could be a good fit in Atlanta, they need the bat.
Clandestine Cashman will ultimately surprise us again with his secretive dealings…
Jeff, sure there are good ideas. But I am only saying that when push comes to shove I will always trust the ideas of the organization if they differ from any here, mine included. I’d be crazy not to given who they are!
Randyhater,
You should change your name to Yankeehater.
I didn’t realize it’s an absolute given that Burnett will get hurt and not be available for the playoffs!
On top of that, do you really think the Yankees are stupid enough to not have Joba available to start in the playoffs??? They’ll find a way to limit his innings so that he can start game 4 after AJ starts game 3.
I wouldn’t write Joba off as a starter as you so quickly do.
I’ll deal with any trivial insults later.
I actually have a life out of Pete’s blog…
Anthony -
Touché!
I just don’t see how the Yankees can afford to sacrifice the offense by trading Nady.
Nady will be a very valuable part of the lineup. Nady starts in RF and Swisher comes off the bench. There isn’t exactly alot of depth there.
I think we need to hold onto Nady.
“yea but the 1,2,3 and 4 innings games are what killed the mets pen last year which was one of the worst in baseball at the end of the season partly because they were overworked.”
Heilman, Feliciano, and Schoeneweis killed the Mets pen, Dave. They couldn’t get anyone out in April. They couldn’t get anyone out in September. And their closer suffered an injury. Blaming the Mets’ bullpen woes on Perez and his short starts is a mighty stretch.
Walks hurt anywhere, and they have a tendency to really hurt in the AL because there are fewer gaps in the lineups. But when Perez loses it, he walks pitchers. When he’s got it, he mows down Yankee and Phillie lineups. I think it’s more a question of keeping focused even when a lineup isn’t challenging him. I think the catcher has a lot to do with this. Olie’s best seasons were 2004 and 2007. In those seasons, his catchers were Jason Kendall and Paul Lo Duca. Kendall was a respected veteran who’d spent the previous two seasons (the first of Olie’s career) working with Perez. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Perez couldn’t repeat his 2004 dominance after Kendall was traded. Lo Duca was a guy who was never afraid to challenge other players and get in their faces, just the kind of guy you want to keep riding a pitcher that loses his focus. Posada is both. I think he would be perfect for Perez. Maybe the two of them establish a great chemistry and draw out Olie’s 2004 form. This is the chance I’d be very eager to take with Perez.
I’d prefer Harang too, but the Reds aren’t giving him to us for Xavier Nady. It would take a lot more.
Trust may not be the right word.
The Yankees have more information than any one of us here. So we can probably assume they are making informed decisions; certainly more informed decisions than most of us would ever make. It does not necessarily follow that those decisions are the best decisions. The information received is weighed against many other variables (which we are also mostly unaware of), and THEN decisions are made. In addition to all that, human beings actually make those decisions, so they are inherently imperfect.
I absolutely grant that the Yankees have far more information (and more to gain/lose) in making the decisions for their organization. However, it does not follow that because the information is greater, the decisions are necessarily “trustworthy.”
To confirm Confucius’ point, look up the number of games in which the Mets were leading after six or seven innings, and then went on to lose.
Or just look at Santana’s starts, and the number of NDs he had…
Trisha,
Ok so you do disagree with the opinions – that isnt really agree with everything they do. i do agree that the yankees have more info than we do and that they are trying to do the best they can for the team. i ALSO agree that they make decisions with a broader mindset taking into account many other things that im sure many of us overlook.
On the other hand, I believe the yankees at times make incorrect assumptions that lead to failed signings.
Many people on this blog have told me today and within the last week that ben sheets is a horrible idea using the excuse that no other team in baseball seems to want him except of course, for his own team the brewers. This is extremely ironic because when i blame brian cashman and the organization for making the horrendous carl pavano acquisition, people say brian cashman or the organization cannot be blamed because everyone wanted him. So doesnt that mean that perhaps every single team could be wrong about something. Doesnt that mean that perhaps just because no team outside of the brewers seem to be interested in sheets than does not validate the yankees decision to not want sheets just because every other team doesnt want him? i JUST thought I would throw that in there to show that even with all the information on hand, not just the yankees but every team can be wrong and perhaps, sheets is one of those times.
Moreover, getting back to wrong assumptions and carl pavano — Pavano was a free agent at the perfect time in his career. jUST LIKE burnett iwas this year. While pavano was an absolute mess from 1999 to 2002 never pitching more than 130 innings for the first 5 years of his career – - he managed to have two consecutive 200 inning seasons before he reached free agency pitching pretty well in the final year as a marlin. Now, the yankees similar to the situation with burnett and sheets, did not use all of the information at their disposal or rather weighted some information much more heavily than other information. They could have realized as many other team did not that pavano was a walking calamity the first four years and only had one quality season in the majors which to any reasonable person even looking objectively at the time would realize wasnt worth a four year contract. However, they got swept up in the media and the other teams over-exaggeration of his skills and talent. Based on his career numbers, there is no way he deserved four years and 40 million but the yanks needed pitching, the market had no good pitching and they ended up giving pavano and jared wright more money than any reasonable fan would have agreed to give him. Now, there was plenty of evidence even at the time to call the yankees out and say it was a bad decision but the yankees even with every possible piece of information at their disposal decided to ignore facts, assume pavano’s 2004 was the beginning of a long await trend and sign him. Of course, the fan would have been right and the yankees wrong.
The same could be said for Burnett’s current signing. Burnett has been on the dl ten times. He has not really had an outstanding year that warrants 5 years and 80 million. The yankees used the more current information of his final year under contract as well as the market value to determine how much he was worth. The yanks also desperately needed pitching and so they gave him the contract. Again, any reasonable fan with all the information could very well argue against this decision because perhaps, the yankees decision to ignore the majority of his career or the assumption that this last year is the beginning of a trend could have argued with this decision to give him five years without nearly the amount of information the yankees had and who knows who would be right?
Again, the entire sport is doing the same thing with sheets. The media is basically writing him off as a lost cause. Teams are saying that he is too risky even at the current market value which is probably less than pettitte is asking for right now and all the fans while never seeing the medical report would guess that there are many red flags. But any fan could argue against the decision with not nearly the amount of information the team have at their disposal. And only time will tell who is right.
Point is the person or team or whoever with the most information is not always the correct one so I wouldnt always think that your opinion is inferior to the yankees organization just because you dont have every little tiny fact. Especially if you know why the yanks are making a decision and you dont agree with the basic premise, you have every right to disagree with them, state why and then, think perhaps someday time will tell you that you were the one that was right.
in my opinion, if the yankees do in fact want to trade nady, they should try to put a package of nady and others such as kennedy/veras/edwar and else to try to get something nice in return…personally i would love to get a big time corner outfield prospect, but that might not be possible…
Yankee Trader
January 8th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
GB7-
How about Nady, Kennedy and Veras for Atlanta’s Martin Prado and CF’er Josh Anderson? Fills two needs for us-super utility guy and good fielding, young speedster who hit .300 last year in CF. Gives the Braves another bat with power, a starting pitcher and reliever.
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I would prefer Schumaker and Ryan from St. Louis for Nady and Ramirez or, if necessary, Veras, although that may need to involve a third team.
The Yankees need to complete their pitching staff. That is “job 1.” Nothing else, no other trade, no other move, is as important right now. I do not want the Yankees filling that position with pitchers that will be better served furthering their development for at least several months in AAA.
pettite unlikely to return to the astros reported the astros
Dave, that was well said. I might add that if Ben Sheets provided only 125 innings of quality pitching, that might be enough to supplement Joba and Phil’s inning limitations. In other words, 150 innings of Phil, 150 of Joba and 125 of Sheets might add up to two high-quality full-time positions as SPs.
Dave, you are a very prolix writer.
The Yankees need to complete their pitching staff. That is “job 1.” Nothing else, no other trade, no other move, is as important right now. I do not want the Yankees filling that position with pitchers that will be better served furthering their development for at least several months in AAA.
So, in that respect, Pettitte is doing the Yankees a huge disservice here. Yes or no. Period. As long as there is a “limbo” position, the Yankees are at a disadvantage. I am a “Pettitte person.” I want him back and I think the Yankees should up their offer in spite of all the arguments to the contrary. But, this all should have been tied up in a neat little package weeks ago. Except for the fact that I think Pettitte fits the Yankees’ need better than any other pitcher out there, it’s at the point where both parties might just have to move on.
I believe Andy has a problem with how he’s perceived by the Yankees, and the only thing that cures that misperception is money.
Doreen: Well said, though I disagree with signing Sheets.
Rebecca -
I don’t think Sheets is a good idea, either.
the yankees are going to pull off a trade for a pitcher or sign one once they get tired of ploaying around with pettitte & pettitte will retire or take an 8 million dollar offer from another team.
i understand burnett got too much but pettitte imo is not worth near 16 million or 12 million.i can see 11 million if the yankees wan’t to get it over with.
if i were cashman i would offer pettitte 11.5 & if he doesn’t take it in 2 days i would trade for a pitcher or sign one & tell pettitte that if we get a pitcher the offer is off.
the red sox added some debth & have a lot of pitchers with becket,dice,lester,penney,smoltz,wakefield.they have 6 starters & a few backup pitchers like masterson,buchholz & more.
we have cc,wang,burnett,joba with a limit on joba & a few pitchers that are not guarantees.
i am convinced 100 percent that we need another very solid starter.i am starting to wonder if pettitte is even enough.
we don’t have enough pitching debth,at least in the al east.
Favre wants to wait a month to decide if he wants to retire.
I dont know who was worse at retiring.
Favre
Clemens
Bonds
Bernie
De la hoya
Hollyfield
I’m tired of the wondering about Pettitte. I just want him back!
S.O.S.: It’s between Clemens and Favre…
uh..for those watching MLBTv, don’t Pedrioa got a big head? LOL
Gammons is gushing over Penny and Smoltz. He says they’ll be a big help in September and October.
What makes him think his Socks will still be playing in October ?
So much for Pettitte going to the Astros. Ed Wade nixes that idea:
“We haven’t had any discussion with Andy or his representatives and we don’t see a scenario where he would fit into our payroll scenario at this time,” Wade said.”
Again, if Andy wants more than $10M he’s got to come up with a viable offer that’s worth more than that.
Otherwise his choice is the yankees or retire.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090108&content_id=3737365&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp&partnerId=rss_mlb
Confucious,
Its called a collapse because they lost their hold at the end of the season – not in april. i am obviously not saying that perez is the reason the mets didnt make the playoffs but he certainly was part of the reason the bullpen absolutely fell apart towards the end along with wagner. iM just saying his six or more games in which he failed to even get out of the fourth takes its toll. But that is not really why i wouldnt want him – it is just the walks really that worries me. Burnett is also a walk machine and the two of them together in a rotation would be too many free passes for my taste. Burnett also is an all or nothing guy so if Burnett and Perez both decide that this is a nothing week the bullpen will really be hurting and it will probably result in an injury. But mainly, I dont think perez will be good in the AL – his 4.22 era will not improve by switching leagues. There is no way. Just because he pitched well against the mets primary competition and the yankees last year doesnt mean he is better against better hitters. That just doesnt make any sense at all. Im sure he was good against the yankees because the entire lineup was lefties outside of jeter and arod and our lineup sucked most of the year anyway. Pitching well against us last season meant nothing. As I said, I would take him but only if we strike out on pettitte, sheets, cant make a trade for harang and maybe even garland although that is close. Put it this way, id rather have perez than not sign anyone else this off season just because we need innings.
Randyhater,
I usually agree with your posts but that was far too negative. And what exactly do you expect us to give to pettitte? How do you even know raising the offer by a few mil would sign him? He claims he doesnt want a paycut. So the yanks are going to spend 16 million on a 37 year old, fifth starter possibly at the declining year of his career of the worst season he has ever had? Pettitte in his career was a second half pitcher. Last season, he was unbearable. Shouldnt the yankees take that as a sign that he is no longer the pettitte of old? And how exactly are you assuming that joba will be out by the playoffs? He has no extensive injury history at this point. He was fantastic last year and the yanks will limit his innings by a good margin to be ready for the playoffs. They dont ever take risks when it comes to joba. I definitely buy the idea that burnett may not be around as that is much more realistic but whats wrong with CC, wang, joba and aceves/hughes? Or better yet what is wrong with CC, wang, sheets, joba? And pettitte is getting well into his late 30s – who is to even say he will stay healthy next season? When people get older, they get more injury prone and while pettitte is usually healthy it wont stay that way forever with the number of innings on his arm. Im not saying i dont want him back but anything more than 10 million is not worth it – even 10 million is at least 2 million more than he deserves for what he will probably give us next season.
Tom
I know. I am sorry about that. i cant help it.
CB
He will take the 10mm. It becoming obvious. Any further delay on his part will just be an embarassment.
We should start a poll.
1. he takes 10mm
2.Yankees offer more than 10mm
3. he retires
4.He signs with another team.
The smartest thing for Andy to do right now would be to phone the Yankees and say, “Look, I was an idiot. If the $10 is still on the table, I’ll take that.”
But that would involve people being rational beings, people being optimistic beings and things making sense.
Vrsce: I vote option 1.
I know I said this last year (and was wrong), but I want to see Hughes in the rotation this year.
I know the arguments against it, particularly last year’s results, as well as pitch count issues, but I’d still like to see him get another chance. I believe he’s learned from the past, and except for the fingernail issue in Arizona, he appears to be healthy.
The pitch counts can be managed. Girardi’s certainly smart eno