Sabathia lends a hand to Epstein
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 11, 2009 
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It will take only a well-placed fastball for the angry words to start. But in January, the rivalry between the Yankees and the Red Sox can be set aside for a good cause. CC Sabathia understands that.
Red Sox GM Theo Epstein and his twin brother Paul run The Foundation To Be Named Later, a charity that helps out disadvantaged kids in Boston. Their biggest fundraiser is the annual Hot Stove, Cool Music concert, which was held last night.
Before the show, Epstein hosted a roundtable discussion for fans at Fenway Park. Guests included Dustin Pedroia, Justin Masterson, Terry Francona, Peter Gammons and Rays outfielder Fernando Perez.
Sabathia participated via telephone from California. This was the same event Brian Cashman attended last year.
Pretty cool of Sabathia to do that.
Meanwhile, why don’t the Yankees have any public events that include star players, the GM and the manager taking questions? Hopefully the improved facilities at the new Stadium will help lead to such things.
I’m sure any minute now, somebody will make a crack about Gammons being there.
Before you do, consider this: What did you do to help a charity out yesterday?
Try and have some perspective. Helping out poor kids is a worthy thing and everybody who participated deserves credit, not a cheap shot.
Personally, I think more players should participate in these charitable events. The minumum wage for baseball players is $400K, an enormous amount. Yes, the Yankees donated millions to Virginia Tech and other foundations, but more players need to help out these causes. Jeter’s Turn2 Foundation is one of the causes that made an impact.
Good job, guys. To put the rivalry on the back burner in the name of charity is a good thing.
Nobody would cheap shot Gammons for attending/giving in a charity event for children….they would only cheap shot him for it being a Red Sox event
Reposted from prior thread:
If Phil stays healthy, he’s going to be a top-flight pitcher. However, due to being rushed and being injured (never a good combination), Phil’s missed important developmental time. The kid has a terrific head on his shoulders and a terrific arm (and fortunately, THAT hasn’t been injured). What Phil needs now is at least 1/2 year at AAA to (a) pitch consistently and (b) work on his secondary pitches. Once he gets in a groove consistently, his FB command will return. That’s actually the most important thing. Phil’s curve and cutter have so much potential, but he needs to work on throwing them with consistency in the minors without the pressure of having to win in the big leagues. The major leagues are not there to develop pitchers – that’s what the minor leagues are for.
I think Phil has all the right stuff to be a big winner- (he’s already shown at a young age that he’s a clutch performer). A little patience goes a long way, so let’s be patient. No matter what happens with Andy, Phil should start in AAA. If he pitches well, he’ll get some starts up in NY anyway.
Any truth to the rumor that during the charity event, Theo announced the signing of Johnny Pesky to an incentive laden contract for a Red Sox infielder utility role?
IF he’s healthy and returns to his former All Star form this could be a steal.
“Peter Abraham January 11th, 2009 at 11:51 am
I’m sure any minute now, somebody will make a crack about Gammons being there.
Before you do, consider this: What did you do to help a charity out yesterday?”
I gave my Chanukah money to ACS. Just sayin’.
****
That’s really cool of Sabathia to do that. A lot of the Yankees are involved in their own charity projects-Jeter, Damon, Posada…and I know there are others, as well.
I really like Damon’s cause, the WWP. The care so many veterans receive is appalling.
It’s not like the Yanks need that facility to have this kind of a charity event. As amazingly high-tech as Fenway is….For once we agree on something, Pete, though I don’t think that opening shot in the comments section was very necessary. I’m sure many of the readers of this blog are very generous with donations.
That’s really cool of Sabathia to do that.
A lot of Yankees have their own pet charity causes, as well. Damon’s might be my personal favorite, the wounded warrior project.
Yanks need to file tampering charges with MLB about Epstein trying to steal Sabathia away when he’s eligible to OPT-OUT. You know it’s on his mind.
Rebecca,, good points, Damon’s charity is one of my favorites as well.
i had the good fortune to be on the yankees bench for 3-4 hours before an espn game of the week at fenway in the early nineties. i was sitting in the corner of the yankee dugout and taking things in and basically staying out of the way. gammons with an espn crew came and said don’t get up. they put some tape on the wall beside me and said stay on that side of the line and you’re good. so i sat there while gammons did his interviews with players a foot away.
at one point between interviews mattingly and gammons asked mattingly why hitting the wall came so easy to him. mattingly said as a kid the whiffleball field in his yard was set up so that hitting to right was an out, so he learned to hit to left over the home run hedge. 4-5 other players took part and talked about their whiffe ball yards. gammons and the yankee players were clearly having a good time with this whiffleball discussion, and mattingly clearly liked gammons.
the whiffleball wan’t talked about in the interviews, but it was the most interesting interplay with gammons and the players. i came into that day disliking gammons because of his old comments in my mind like, “billy martin and his brown shirts”. yup, gammons said that at some point after nettles” adjusted” bill lee’s shoulder.
… but after watching him, and watching mattingly’s friendliness with gammons, i figured if gammons is good enough for mattingly, he’s good enough for me.to this day that’s my opinion of him.
On second thought.forget the tampering charges. Nobody would believe tha Boston would go after anybody that young and healthy.
The Yankees just go to Virginia Tech to play exhibition baseball games instead.
Given the number of musicians based in the New York area, I’m sure Peter would love to set up ‘The Boss and The Boss’ with Hal, Cash, assorted players and The Boss at the new Stadium?
The supporting showcase of new acts, and established bands as guests would attract corporate sponsorship, even in these difficult times. Who knows, there might even be a slot for Bernie Williams!
Just a thought……….
I ran a half marathon where I donated $350 out of pocket to charity so…I can hate on Gammons.
Figures the Homer himself would find himself to a Red Sox event. Its really disgusting how he is taken so seriously, ill never forget how he kept claiming that Sabathia would go out West, to the Angels specifically
Hey Pete, is Chad Jennings on the list of guest bloggers?
It bothers me at some level that I just can’t hate the current Boston Red Sox’ manager.
The way the new YS is being wired, you would think that direct communication in ‘realtime’ (or pretty darn close to realtime) between ballplayers and the fans is a real possibility. It would be a great breakthrough for all of sports and so unique, but as we see in your blog, Pete, you get a bazillion postings (& to be honest, some postings are a bit ‘odd’). So I guess if there was a way to control the content and volume with a mediator or something, it would be incredibly cool. I mean, to be able to ask a pitcher or batter a specific question about a specific moment, and to have that ballplayer answer you directly would blow our little fan-atical minds.
Gammons has made many errors and his judgement is clearly clouded. He has turned into a Red Sox sycophant and is used as a “leak” for Epstein. That I’ve come to expect.
But his mention of Tex’s wife was too much.
I delivered food as part of the Meals on Wheels program yesterday, Pete.
(And cleared the 12 inches of snow from my neighbors driveway that fell overnight.)
In the old days, baseball was more of a “life and death” struggle for the players than it is today. The money, while still very good for the era, did not come close to providing for the offseason, let alone after the players’ career was done. I think that probably contributed to some of the battles that the oldtimers had that I’ve read about.
Nowadays, the money has skyrocketed, of course, and players have a bit more security; though not every player is rich, of course. Because of this, I believe, it’s become easier for guys on rival teams to fraternize, especially during the offseason.
I can’t think of a better way to fraternize than over an event as worthy as fundraising for children who are out-of-luck, or sick. There should be so much more of this sort of thing.
No problems with Gammons, or anybody else for that matter, helping out Theo’s charity. Its a very good cause and Theo and his brother do a great job operating their foundation. They really do get money and services to those who need it and they should be applauded for it.
Big problems with Gammons dissing Mrs. Teixeira on WEEI Radio the other day and acting like Baghdad Bob for ESPN on everything Red Sox. In both cases, its unprofessional, unbalanced (from a reporting prospective) and he’s better than that.
He’s always been better than that until the last 4-5 years. Since then, he’s lost all objectivity on Yankee-Red Sox issues.
If he was a lawyer, he would have to recuse himself when discussing these teams because of his biases. As a journalist, and a respected one at that, he’s allowed to carry on unfiltered and I don’t think its right.
We all know he has crazy man love for Theo, John Henry and the Sox. That’s ok.
However, taking shots at players wives has always been off limits. If someone else in the media said what Peter said about a Red Sox wife, Peter would be all over that person, and rightly so.
Why seperate rules for him? He’s not God. He’s a reporter like Pete, Kepner and everybody else who works the baseball beat. He shouldn’t have special dispensation to take shots at ballplayers wives because they didn’t sign with his favorite team simply because he’s a Hall of Famer.
In fact, one could argue his behavior this week was unbecoming a Hall of Famer.
I have no idea why he felt it was appropriate to throw the unspoken rule out the window and take a shot at a ballplayers wife.
IMO, there is no defense for that, regardless of how charitable he is on other matters.
George Steinbrenner used to routinely treat people like dirt, followed by donating time and money to a charity or paying for a busboy’s education who worked at his favorite Tampa Restaurant.
While one thing is admirable, it doesn’t excuse the other.
To me at least, the same applies with Gammons on these issues.
Why couldn’t Teixeira do this
That’s cool of CC
I have alway thought that the Yanees do not do enough in tems of interaction with the fans on the type of level you are discussing. The Yankees may think that it is beneath them but where is the Yankee caravan? Why not have someone the players and some of the young kids go across the metropolitan area and meet with fans and kids. Why not do some clinics with kids in the area? When I was a kid in Philly there was photo day during the season where the entire team after a game you could go on the field and take photos of the players. You were of course cordened off by barriers but still it made you feel like you were getting the chance to interact with players and coaches/manager from your team.
I know that the yankees do do a lot in the community from a charitable point of view and that individual players do a lot as well but to me at least there seems to be a disconnect that other teams do that the Yankees do not. I think they would be well served to look at some of the other teams and make some adjustments.
Hopefully somebody else captures on tape, the first time Gamons approaches Teixeira for a pre- or post-game interview. That could be an interesting exchange.
If he gives Peter G. a death stare I’d so rock his jersey. Yes that’s right I’ll sweep it all under the bridge.
People how do we say…umm until later. I got to watch my G-MEN…
Do Not Lose To Philly !
Ugh, this would be a horrible deal.
“The Yankees still have interest in acquiring Brewers centerfielder Mike Cameron after talks broke off in late December. They recently floated the idea of swapping first baseman/outfielder Nick Swisher for Cameron.”
http://www.jsonline.com/sports.....63469.html
There’s no doubt in my mind that Gammons is a different person since the stroke. I believe he is mentally impaired to a minor extent, and it has effected his judgement. A friend of his should let him in on his behavior. It is very unprofessional and he now lives totally off his prior reputation.
gayle
January 11th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
I have alway thought that the Yanees do not do enough in tems of interaction with the fans on the type of level you are discussing. The Yankees may think that it is beneath them but where is the Yankee caravan? Why not have someone the players and some of the young kids go across the metropolitan area and meet with fans and kids. Why not do some clinics with kids in the area? When I was a kid in Philly there was photo day during the season where the entire team after a game you could go on the field and take photos of the players. You were of course cordened off by barriers but still it made you feel like you were getting the chance to interact with players and coaches/manager from your team.
I know that the yankees do do a lot in the community from a charitable point of view and that individual players do a lot as well but to me at least there seems to be a disconnect that other teams do that the Yankees do not. I think they would be well served to look at some of the other teams and make some adjustments.
————————————————————
Part of the reason that teams have stopped “Camera Day” is becaue the adults have ruined it for those that it was intended for…the kids. There are a lot of kids and usually it was one picture with a player and kid, but with as many players as the kids wanted, and parents were taking 5-10 and other kids were left out…adults would push kids out of the way. When a kid was left ot, the parents were writing to the teams, players and media about the shabby behavior of the players…disappointing the kids, when it’s the greedy behavior of the aults. This happened quite a few times in Chicago and Detroit, so, I’m sure that it’s happened in NY, also.
That is called a good start.
Shades of Dixion
OldYanksFan
January 11th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
There’s no doubt in my mind that Gammons is a different person since the stroke. I believe he is mentally impaired to a minor extent, and it has effected his judgement. A friend of his should let him in on his behavior. It is very unprofessional and he now lives totally off his prior reputation.
————————————————————
as much as I dislike Gamons, and, this is just another reason, is he any different that what the NY media has said about Rodriguez and his ex-wife? Seems to be pretty much the same type of crap to me.
what did gammons say about mrs texiera??
4th and 2…made it.
Correction: As much as I dislike ***Gammons***
Quick score while heading into the wind?
Anyone who does charity work deserves praise.
That doesn’t change the fact that Gammons is incredibly biased and is usually wrong with his reporting.
I heard that during one of the slow songs last night him and Pedroia were dancing together in the corner.
Thank God for the MLB Network. I’m hoping to never have to listen to him again since there’s really no reason to watch ESPN anymore for baseball coverage.
Not to rehash the Gammons stuff again, but his statement about Leigh was just a part of it. How he completely changed his tune about the Sox desire of Tex to claim it was a hoax…how does he still have credibility in baseball circles.
SJ – you are pretty connected…what does the baseball establishment now think of Gammons?
Am I sensing a little bit of Pete’s possible Red Sox bias creeping out in this post?
What’s the matter Pete? The chowda at Legal Seafood ain’t cuttin’ no more?
In all seriousness, I’m sure the Yankees do a ton of charity things and Pete knows this…they’re just don’t get the public pat on the back that old Theo gets every single time he does anything.
There’s an insane love affair with the press and Theo and it’s ridiculous.
They cover the story of his marriage and quote his Father on the ruse of him getting married at Nathans in Coney Island, they cover his playing in a rock band or some nonsense…the media types treat him like a celebrity.
He gets called a “genius” just for not making a trade like he was when the Hanley for Ellsbury/Buckholtz offer was leaked even though the Marlins said they said no in 20 seconds.
I think Theo could punch an old woman and the press would say there was a killer mosquito on her cheek and he did it for her own good.
Some day the old Red Sox players are going to come out and bash the organization since it appears the front office takes credit for their victories and the players take credit for their losses.
It’s a despicable organization no matter how many cans of soup they give to a charity drive.
To me it appears the Red Sox are all about public perception. Everything they do has an agenda about it.
Gammons is complicit in this behavior. Gammons is Billy Crystal or Mayor Giuliani now.
He’s a superfan. He may still do some reporting, but his objectivity is long out the window.
NOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! INT.
I’m at the game and a squirel just ran up the aisle! Has to be a better sign than an int. For 7. Maybe it was Scooter!?
G-men taking the wind.
Rob NY, I think you were right about the squirrel. As long as he wasn’t trying to abandon the ship. I think the G-men will be ok as long as they don’t let the Eagles start more drives inside the 3-yard line. The defense is looking great.
And I don’t think it’s too difficult for the more sophisticated among us to recognize that Peter Gammons is a fine human being who does good things in his life while also having good fun with his ridiculous reporting. He should just go all the way and announce his candidacy for mayor of the Red Socks Village.
Giants will win-It is my Birthday wish.
This goes out to McNabb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcDCvQbOdig
Good one, Tom. Happy Birthday!
I can’t believe the Giants are down 2.
I’m starting to worry that Eli took this before the game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQTR3HAyIbI
Angels want Nady….give the Yankees back either Shields or Figgins
“Why seperate rules for him? He’s not God. He’s a reporter like Pete, Kepner and everybody else who works the baseball beat.”
sj-
hearing your reasons why you think gammons has crossed a line is definitely something to think about, but on thinking about what you said, gammons still doesn’t bother me. yeah he’s a die hard red sox fan. but he also had the best sunday column i’ve ever read about baseball and he was a red sox fan then.
this is going to come off as kind of convoluted and a backhanded compliment, but gammons is a sportswriter. i personally don’t take sport writers very seriously . it’s baseball. it’s not peace in the middle east. as far as sportswriters go he’s very good and that’s despite being a red sox fan.
gammons at least likes baseball and baseball players. there are a huge number of sport writers who seem to feel superior to players and do everything they can to knock them off their perceived perch.
you have mentioned dan shauhnessy in the past. according to some he’s the most obnoxious boston writer. but you’ve got to know him personally and think he’s a decent guy. bob ryan in an email exchange told me that he and other write and aren’t that important.
shauhnessy and i traded email insults back and forth during a red sox game. he finally ended with ” hey, i’m just trying t make a living” as he gave up arguing with me. these guys have opinions. they didn’t play the game. they report it. are they keepers of the flame? only in some their minds.
the keepers of the game are the people that play it, so i take what writers say with that in mind. they do their best at describing something they only understand from watching. of course, as yogi says. you can learn a lot by watching.
just not everything, so i just don’t take sport writers that seriously. give me a box score any day and i’m happy.
“Angels want Nady….give the Yankees back either Shields or Figgins”
prove it.
For those interested, you can read Gammons comment about Tex’s wife here….
http://tinyurl.com/GammonsTake
“bob ryan in an email exchange told me that he and other writers are keepers of the flame and that players like garciappara aren’t that important.”
( my new macbook is making me crazy with it’s erasing of words and phrases)
Wasn’t it Bob Ryan who said that baseball writers are the “keepers of the game” or some such?
sorry, randy, didn’t see your subsequent post. Glad we could clear up Bob Ryan’s goofiness.
“Wasn’t it Bob Ryan who said that baseball writers are the “keepers of the game” or some such?”
nick in sf-
well, i know he said it to me in an email. once you understand that’s what someone like him thinks, it’s not hard to go straight to the box scores.
i was defending garciaparra the player when the red sox chased him out of boston. ryan took the position of who needs him?
gammons at least seems to realize that he’s a writer and not more important than players. players go into all kinds of things, management, tv analyst, manager, coach, sports agent,etc, but i can’t think of a former player becoming a writer.
i don’t know what that exactly means, but players and writers are like oil and water. they really don’t stay mixed that well.
Player illiteracy is the unspoken (and of course unwritten) tragedy of the game.
nick in sf-
sorry about the confusion. does anyone else out there have a new aluminum macbook and have problems with the keyboard and typing? i’m really trying hard to not find out how far i can throw a laptop.
Randy – YES!!! It is very frustrating. I miss my old Dell…lasted me 7 years.
weserner99-
i’ve had nothing but macs for years and never had problems with the keyboard and typing, but this new macbook with the one piece touch pad is very difficult to get used to.
Do not criticize a MAC product. I will hunt you down for re-mac-ification. It’s not a computer it’s a lifestyle.
Didn’t read the entire thread so I apologize if this has been already asked. But what Sox players have come out to support Derek Jeter’s Turn 2 fundraising functions? Or Torre’s foundation when he was with the Yankees? It’s really nice that Cashman and now Sabathia have crossed lines to support a good cause. I believe Bernie did a music charity in Boston a few years back as well.
I don’t care what charity event he goes to, Peter Gammons is a clownboat. I can’t stand hearing him talk, he’s not that good of a guitar player, and his bias makes me want to throw up.
What was Gammons’ contribution to the charity event? A promise to continue adding a Red Sox bias to his reporting for the next 5 years?
I should have also included Posada’s foundation
steve jobs-
not only am i ticked off at you for screwing up my lohud posts( more than usual),but skipping macworld has knocked down the share price of my apple stock. and what’s with making me have to deal with the morons at att to get an iphone?
Gammons is the biggest homer in all of sports journalism. He’s worse than sports guy. At least Simmons passes his writing off as satire of sorts. The only thing he deserves respect for is longevity
Randy,
I wouldn’t say Gammons doesn’t realize he’s more important than the players. He’s a got a VERY healthy ego.
He has no problems putting himself in the front of the class to offer commentary on the game. As he should because that’s his job.
To that end, the job comes with responsibilities. One of them is offering balanced commentary. The other is, players wives and GF’s are off limits.
I wonder why Peter didn’t commment on Jason Varitek’s affair with a NESN reporter last year, that lead to his divorce, and wondered if he affected his performance this past season? He didn’t venture into that territory because that’s an off limits topic. As it should be.
If you are going to do it for a Red Sox player, that should be the policy across the board.
I also wonder if Brian Cashman did the following, would Peter Gammons call them “brilliant” moves?
1. Sign a pitcher who has a history of weight and shoulder problems.
2. Sign another pitcher who has had 5 surgeries in the last 6 years, the last of which was major shoulder surgery, and is 42 years old.
3. Sign still another pitcher who is 39 years old and has an elbow so bad, he is having experimental hormone injections in the elbow in the hopes of regenerating the ligaments.
4. Signed an OF who has a serious muscular condition that limits the amount of time he can play.
He used the term “brilliant” to describe these moves by Theo on ESPN.
Ironically, Cashman did the same thing a few years ago when he signed a 42 year old pitcher with a history of back problems (Randy Johnson), a guy who may have the DL named after him (Carl Pavano), another guy coming off TWO major shoulder surgeries (Jared Wright) and another guy coming off Tommy John Surgery (Octavio Dotel) and the word “brilliant” wasn’t used for those moves.
Nor should it have been.
They were “gambles”, as Theo’s moves are at this moment.
If it works out, THEN you can use the word “brilliant”. Right now though, they are just gambles, regardless of whom made the moves.
Yes, in the world scheme of things, sportswriting isn’t the same as say, folks who write about governmental abuses.
However, it is a profession where balance and accuracy are sought after by those in it.
I would just like to see him return to the guy who wrote the Sunday Globe column instead of being the unobjective fanboy of the Boston Red Sox.
The column is the reason why he in the Hall of Fame. Being a fanboy is the reason why fewer and fewer people outside Boston take his commentary seriously anymore.
i think i have the solution with gammons.
like brian(red sox fan) does
gammons should just say: peter gammons(red sox fan)
SJ – what does the baseball establishment think of Gammons? Other writers? Players? GMs? Agents?
Who are the announcers doing the Giants-Eagles game on TeeVee?
Buck and Aikmen. Buck actually made a funny with that line about Robbins running “with the wind.”
Gammons is very well respected by most people in the game.
A lot of the players like him because he is a fan of the game. Players like writers/broadcasters who are fans of the game. You would be surprised at how many people who work in the game aren’t necessarily fans of the game. More than you would think. Agents like him (except for Scott Boras) because they often use him (as agents do with the media) to put their spin in the public domain.
More and more people though realize he no longer has the ability to be objective about the Red Sox. Its kind of an accepted thing these days. Mainly because of his unabashed love for Theo and John Henry.
To his credit, he does encourage younger writers who are getting in the business.
But, make no mistake, the man has a big ego. Ask those who work with him on the baseball side of ESPN when it comes to breaking stories. Or, more appropriately, who gets credit for breaking stories.
What Peter Gammons said about Leigh Teixera is disgusting and sexist. I never really cared about his pro-Sox slant because he wasn’t anti-Yankee and I liked him personally. Lately, though, he’s crossed this invisible line. I don’t know, he seems bitter.
Players’ families should be off-limits (can someone tell the Daily Spews that please?)………why does Peter not know this yet?
or better yet :
peter gammons( red sox fan after brain surgery)
sj-
i can’t argue with the facts you give. gammons obviously should not cross a line with player’s personal lives and their families. i guess i give him a pass because of the old sunday column and also the fact i don’t read him that much anymore to see the new stuff that is inflammatory in nature.
as a matter of fact, i get more of my baseball info from people like you ,cb and others on this blog than i do sports writers. the way we get info is changing.
peter is on to something with this blog, but ironically it may not be his writing that makes it a success. not that peter doesn’t write well because he does. it’s just information comes at us in very different ways than the old days of gammon’s sunday column.
Theo has a twin?! Who knew?
randy, this is the macbook for you:
http://tinyurl.com/8x53o8
speaking of red sox players having affairs with sideline reporters, I’m surprised Derek Lowe didn’t return to beantown
http://www.laobserved.com/arch.....tching.php
Thanks for the answer, SJ.
I don’t know Gammons, only sat in the front row at Oriole Park prior to him doing a piece. He was berating the producer because she got the wrong color umbrella to hold over him while he gave the report. The tongue-lashing went on for 4 minutes and was vulgar.
Wow, Gammons is a lot of things, most notably a Red Sox fan, but I think his little joke about Leigh not liking the stores in Boston is not really something to get upset about. Let’s not get hyper-sensitive people.
There is no question that Gammons is the biggest Red Sox homer around.
Sorry to double post but I have to ask this:
Why are the Yankees so content on trading Swisher or Nady? They want a Centerfielder for one season (to keep the position warm for Austin Jackson). They can’t have Swisher be the CF just for ONE season? That way at the end of the seasons, Nady walks, Swisher moves to RF, and Jackson is the new CF.
You are so right Anthony, I could not agree more. Keep them both for now.
To be fair to Gammons, and I’m no fan of his, I think sports journalism in general has crossed the threshold of covering sports to covering sports and sports related gossip. Look at the coverage we saw of A-Rod’s divorce and his alleged affair with Madonna? I’m not a fan of it period. I think any sportswriters with any dignity would stick to covering the game and let US Weekly handle the gossip. Personally, I’m under the assumption that most pro athletes are getting around. They’re well known, young fit, wealthy and spend a lot of time on the road. It comes with the territory. I don’t condone it but I also don’t care to hear about it. I care about what’s done on the field, court or ice. Thats where the real stories are. I don’t care that Sean Avery used the words “sloppy seconds” about Eliza Cuthbert, I care that I had to hear about it for a month and that the Sports Media like ESPN repeated those same words over and over again. Avery is an enforcer, he’s not supposed to be a nice guy. I don’t care that A-Rod got a divorce cause he was boinking skeletor, I care that the media hoopla around it can effect his game. I don’t care if A-Rod and Jeter don’t get along as long as they can turn two when they need to. Has sports gotten that boring that fans need to read about their personal lives?
“Wow, Gammons is a lot of things, most notably a Red Sox fan, but I think his little joke about Leigh not liking the stores in Boston is not really something to get upset about”
she’s maybe got a point about newbury st . have you ever tried to park there?
Good perspective, Jeff NJ, I agree with you. The whole context of the joke was that Tex had sat down with his wife to talk over his options and she was the one who said he should be a Yankee, other things being equal. I don’t think it was really so awful, and not nearly as awful as the real ‘reporting’ he did on this matter.
Randy,
Don’t get wrong, he’s not a bad guy. He’s been very complimentary to scouts about my nephew and in the grand scheme of things, he’s harmless.
Its that these days, rightly or wrongly, ESPN dominates the sports landscape. They make heroes (see Brett Favre and Theo Espstein) or goats (see TO) on a daily basis.
If you are going to have the bully pulpit, which he does as far as baseball is concerned, be responsible with it. That’ws all I want.
Put it another way…..If Hank Steinbrenner put out the idiotic press release John Henry did the other day, do you think Gammons would be on ESPN defending it, as he was that fateful (at least as far as the Red Sox are concerned) Thursday night? No chance.
Had Hank put it out, would Peter have said its a “negotiating ploy”, which he did said about Henry’s statement? Of course not, he would have laughed at it. Which is precisely what he should have done when it he reported on it.
That was one of the reasons why the Red Sox blew the Tex deal. Not the “hoax” that Gammons was trying to sell folks on Mike and Mike the day after it was announced Tex was coming to NY.
All I want is balance. That’s it. If he is incapable of doing it, then wear a Red Sox uniform when he gives reports from now on. This way, we won’t have to waste time believing he’s trying to be “objective” with his reporting.
If they trade Swisher, the 3 OF’s who are under contract in 2010 are the kids. Any chance the starting OF in 2010 is Gardner in LF, Jackson in CF and Melky in RF? I think we know the answer to that.
Hixon’s the one!
Nick,
That’s just it. The real “reporting” he did on the matter is the bigger joke. My point about his comment about Tex’s wife is, wives and GF’s have always been off limits with sportswriters.
If they aren’t for new Yankees, then call out Red Sox wives. If not, then just shut up, offer perspective on the game, and keep the nonsense to a minimum.
id really rather them swing a trade for vernon wells than mike cameron. Need a veteran presence in that outfield….If they trade swisher for cameron….theres a chance your 2010 OF consists of Damon/Gardner, Cabrera & Jackson…..bleh……Theyd def need a Holliday out there if thats the case.
Toronto is not trading Vernon Wells within the division.
They aren’t in the business of helping the Yankees create any more distance between them as they have right now.
I know that, but its just me thinking out loud. Mike Cameron just doesnt make sense to me….I wouldnt say no to Lastings Milledge patrolling CF. Need more speed on the bags
Cameron for Swisher makes less sense than for Melky, that’s how you know it’s bs.
Giants look done. Picked the wrong time to play their worst game of the year.
No offense, no defense, too many penalties, and can’t stop the Eagles on third down.
They are going to look back on this season and see they blew a great opportunity.
The Cardinals at home in the NFL Championship Game and you don’t show up against the Eagles. That ain’t good.
G-Men repeat dreams are currently on life-support
wow, the cardinals haven’t been a title game since 1948.
sj-
i guess i figure that all journalists have a bias. on the other hand, to the degree a journalist can limit his or her bias, he or she has a chance to get to the heart of a story.
it’s not just with gammons and espn. with all the financial craziness i’ve been watching cnbc a lot more than usual . the problem is that a lot of the “experts” on world business problems are simply journalists with no economic academic credentials.
they talk a good game, but it only sounds good until you dig deeper. they predict very little. no one predicted the financial collapse on cnbc, but now they are experts on how to fix everything. i came across a criticism of cnbc calling it “bubblevision” because of their bullish bias.
baseball writers are the same way. they predict very little, but know everything after it happens. that to me is not an expert. tell me something before it happens and then you’ve got my attention. gammons used to do that to the extent that you actually got info you didn’t get anywhere else.
with all the info available now with the web, do we really need a peter gammons the way we used too. i don’t think so. i really don’t pay much attention to any one source. it’s the cumulative info that comes in that’s important.
Stick a fork in them, the Big Blue is done.
Stupid football and its season over for the Giants.
270 RB and you have Eli try to make 4th and inches.
When teams try to go away from what they are in the post-season they always lose. That’s the Giants problem today and it cost them the game.
don’t worry folks . i haven’t watched a giant game all the year and i just turned the game on. i’ll see if i can put a whammy on the eagles. i’ve never liked them since bednarik’s cheap shot with gifford.
hey, guys, it’s not over.
The Giants are making me sad.
uck, they suck. I am really depressed now.
I can’t believe this is how the Giants season is ending! This SUX
On the plus side, if the Giants are being eliminated that must mean that baseball season is close to starting!
That’s a bad as series of plays as you will ever see from a #1 seed.
The Giants are in full blown panic mode and pretty much gave the game away.
Its what happens when you have no confidence that your QB can throw the ball.
If that’s the case, which its clear it is by the playcalling, why keep him in there? Just play Carr.
When you are down 2 scores with 7 minutes left, you have to throw the ball.
If you don’t think Eli can do, which I have hard time understanding seeing that he has brought the team from behind before, then you have to take him out. You can’t just run the ball every down.
You aren’t going to trick a team that has 8 in the box. You have to throw the ball.
Can’t blame this on Burress. This is all on the guys who dressed out today and coaching. Nobody showed up today and the Eagles cleaned their clock.
The Giants didn’t deserve to win this game.
Hope the Cardinals can get it done at home next week or Philly fans are going to be insufferable.
Phillies win the WS and the Eagles go to the Super Bowl. A daily double not too many people thought were possible this year.
Amazing…the Giants O-line got zero movement on both third and fourth downs.
How is that New York (Jets/Giants) Superbowl shaping up for this year??
Truly ugly performance thus far, including by the coaching staff. Now it’s really over as the rookie from Cal twists the knife in our back. i feel sick to my stomach.
Thanks Eli and Gillbride….:X
2 TDs is doable. Possible, not probable however, due to the way they’ve played today.
Eli and Gilbride have been just terrible today. On the Eagle 22 1′st and 5 and 3 straight passes? Where was the run on that possesion?
Spags is going to have to stay with the Giants now.
They say the hardest thing in sports is to repeat. Here’s another piece of evidence for that. Makes the Yankees’ latest threepeat and 4 of 5 all the more impressive.
They clearly missed Glocksixco.
Good point Eric!
Its why its so tough to repeat in the NFL. So many things have to go right to repeat.
Homefield is overrated, unless you have team playing from a warm weather area playing in the cold.
When it comes to playing NFC divisional rivals, you aren’t going to trick anybody.
You have to convert third down and prevent the other team from converting third downs. The Giants did neither today.
You can’t give teams short fields. The Giants did it all day today.
You have to be able to throw the ball against Eagles. If you can’t, they move Dawkins into the box and you can’t run the ball effectively.
You also can’t give penalties up for first down. The Giants did that 5 times today.
It gets down to getting away from what got you there and you try and become something your aren’t.
Look at Carolina last night. They got there by running the ball and last night decide Jake Delhomme is now Peyton Manning. He proceeds to pass them right out of the playoffs.
Going to be interesting to see how the Eagles stack up with the Cardinals. The Cardinals are finally using Edgerrin James and now have a running game. Kurt Warner should be able to take advantage of the matchups on the outside.
The big question is, will the moment be too big for the Cardinals? If it isn’t, they can derail the Eagles hopes.
I guess it’s really not that important for a QB to know the rules about OT and ties.
Game…Set…Match!
For Manning, it’s 2007 all over again.
Spags with either be coaching the Jets or Broncos next year, IMO. Its time for him to move on. Too many head coaching opportunities out there this year and he is too highly thought of.
I can’t blame Gilbride today. He sees Eli doesn’t have it and you can’t keep calling pass plays with a guy who can’t throw the ball today.
In fact, I submit they should have come out running the ball MORE early in the game. The throw Eli made that lead to the first Eagles score was unnecessary. Why throw the ball deep in your end, into the wind when you have Brandon Jacobs back there?
It was just the Eagles day today. They did what they had to do to win the game and the Giants did not.
Time to retool the G-Men, get Osi back, and move onto 2010.
That’s the rub. In this instance, homefield, (ie: the wind) killed the Giants passing game today.
i’m going to have to work on my whammys.
The real issue with the Giants is that Eli Manning is back to Eli Manning instead of a superstar without Plaxico Burress. He can no longer get in trouble and just throw it up to Plax like he could last year. Plax made him way better than he actually is.
I think the Giants should have built a dome, it’s clear this quarterback struggles in the wind. That’s why playing on the road was a blessing for them last year. Watching the Eagles celebrate is going to be insufferable.
It also was a windy day earlier. Since then the wind has settled down. But it’s plain and simple that Eli can’t throw in the wind. His arm is simply not strong enough.
Throw in the fact that he’s for the most part an inaccurate passer that equals bad game for the QB. And because of that he’s left WR open all day.
Kevin Gilbride also was terrible for the 2nd straight game against the Eagles.
This is not because Burress wasn’t here. The WR’s were open all day. But I will say this I could be wrong but barring a jail sentence, I think Burress will be back.
It’s not easy getting a number 1 receiver. A receiver that commands a double team and can catch the ball while doubled. Where are you finding a player like that? I think he’ll be back.
The Burress stuff is overrated. They played pretty much all year without him.
Its not like he was having an All-Pro year prior to shooting himself. He was just taking up a roster space and was no factor this year.
He wouldn’t have made any difference today. Their defense couldn’t get off the field in the second half, they committed too many penalties, and Eli just didn’t have it. It happens.
Too many mistakes. A fortunate as they were with the breaks that went their way last year, everything evened out today.
That’s what is so tough about the playoffs. Zero margin for error.
bad day for the G-men?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hZQzbjU3z0
With this lost they lost, they have lost 4 of their last 5 games.
The Burress stuff is not overrated at all. When he was on the field, even when ineffective, he commanded a double team. Now, the Eagles can single up on their wide receivers and put 8 guys in the box to stop the run. The same thing the Cowboys did to beat them. The crazy thing is that the receivers were beating the single coverage early in the game. Eli just missed them.
Burress is done as a Giant. They aren’t only not bringing him back, he is almost guaranteed to go to jail.
His future in NY ended when that bullet went through his thigh.
The Mara’s and Tisch’s aren’t the Steinbrenners. They are much less forgiving when guys act like idiots.
He’s history, as he should be.
The only real question left for me is, will our blogfather Pete go 4 for 4 in NFL picks this weekend?
Lets not forget Carney missing 2 FG’s. He also missed one in Minnesota that would have not only won them the game but kept the Eagles out of the playoffs and got the terrible Bears in.
I hate Plaxico Burress. I hope he’s really proud of himself.
GO EAGLES!
A little over a month ago we all thought it could be an all NY Super Bowl. Now it could possibly be an all Pennsylvania Super Bowl with the Eagle and Steelers.
Guys were open all day today, even with Burress out. Eli couldn’t get them the ball.
He left 3 TD’s on the field today, missing wide open receivers.
The recievers were only being covered better when the Giants had to throw in the 4th quarter. Until then, guys ran free the entire game. Eli just missed them.
(1) Used to be a Giants fan (going back to Charlie Conerly), and still have a warm spot in my heart for them (except the last SB). But they stank (is that a word?) today. Do I have to root for the Cardinals now? Is Warner an ace? Are the Cardinals a dynasty?
(2) Because I’m a curmudgeon, I’m never sure when people are genuinely outraged, or are actually thrilled at the chance to act outraged. It had been reported that Leigh T. didn’t like Boston (the city), and liked NY (the city). In that context, Gammons’ spoken comment was probably a heavy handed attempt at humor. But not as heavy handed as the reaction IMO.
(3) SJ – The reason Cashman wasn’t given the genius tag for his signings of R. Johnson, Wright, Pavano and Dotel is because he gave multiple years at top dollar. You’re a bright guy, in baseball and business, and you know when you’re setting up specious analogies. If Cashman had gotten those players in one year deals for a total of $13M guaranteeed, then your argument would resonate.
But it’s apples and oranges. Bargain hunting as opposed to top dollar.
“The Burress stuff is not overrated at all. When he was on the field, even when ineffective, he commanded a double team.”
*********************************************************
Exactly.
“Gammons’ spoken comment was probably a heavy handed attempt at humor. But not as heavy handed as the reaction IMO.”
Heavy handed reaction? I thought it was sexist and uncalled for, and certainly the last thing I’d have expected out of someone as widely respected as Peter Gammons.
If you think thats a heavy handed reaction, then I think I’ll take that with a grain of salt.
Where are the Giants getting a number 1 receiver from? You can’t go into next season with Hixon your 1. He’s not a number 1. What he does best is return kicks and once in a while step in and play on offense.
They’re not getting Michael Crabtree in the draft. And there are not any number 1 receivers on the FA market. And you will have to trade a ton of picks to get one.
Barring jail time Plaxico will be back.
Brian,
You keep harping on the one year deals as if the Red Sox are all of a sudden the Marlins.
He’s signing guys, at this point, almost 20% of his roster, to roles (perhaps significant roles) on the team.
Its just nonsense. They are a major market team. They have money. They have to sign an All-DL team and get praise because they are “only one year deals”.
So what? Go sign players who are healthy to multi-year deals.
Its wonderful to go “bargain hunting”, if you have to. When you are the Red Sox, you don’t have to.
If you do, that’s not “brilliant”, its “gambling”.
I’d feel more comfortable if the Theo Lovefest in the media would call it that and not drone on as if he discovered the Hope Diamond with every signing.
Giants recievers just couldn’t get seperation on the Eagles D , I don’t care what anyone saids not having Plax and this is why he can never return here hurt us. One night in a club cost us our season, Plax always owns Philly and not having a physical reciever made them over play the run and stop us. This D did everything they could to keep it a game the combination of Eli not having it and this WR core being so small cost us. Now if you excuse me I’m going to drown my sorrow in hot cocoa
Brandon,
bad day for the G-men?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hZQzbjU3z0
“Barring jail time Plaxico will be back.”
After this season there is no way he will be back. He punched his ticket out of NYC. So did Kevin Gilbride.
Eh speak w/ you guys later.
STOMPED OUT!!!
Oh Brian the Red Socks fan, can’t you just disagree without suggesting that people on this board are being deliberately specious or disengenuous or whatever other charge you’ve casually dropped on here in the past few weeks? I think you can.
Brandon I hope you’re right about Gilbride. I don’t think he gets enough criticism. He called an awful game for the second straight time against the Eagles.
He’s very pass happy.
Nick – Are you being snarky? You’ve been warned about that.
Trevor,
Burress is no longer part of the team. His locker has been cleaned out, and they want no part of him.
There is 0% he comes back. Nobody wants anything to do with him on the team.
It doesn’t matter if he is a #1 receiver or not. In fact, its irrelevent to the issue. He ruined his associations with his employers. He’s been in effect, terminated.
They will look to free agency and/or the draft for a WR.
It ain’t gonna be Burress, jailtime or not.
He’s healthy enough right now to play. They could have played him if they wanted to. He’s not suspended by the league and his suspension with the Giants ended with the regular season.
They chose not to because nobody wants anything to do with him among the Giants heirarchy.
He ruined a good thing. Next thing they will do is look not to pay him anymore. They will probably win that grievance with the Union to keep from enacting his contract extension they agreed to beginning in 2010.
Eagles come away with the W!!
Time to go to Arizona and take care of business.
I guess now would not be a good time to say E_A G_L_E S!!!!
So, how long does it take for the Giants fans want eli Manning shipped out of town? Tomorrow? It only took Jets fans about 8 years to get their wish for Pennington to go and one game to want him back.
Brian, that was more straight-up annoyance than snark.
I don’t want Eli shipped out town. It does suck though that he can’t throw in the wind. That’s a home disadvantage. I’m hoping the new Meadowlands stadium isn’t as windy.
I wish he atleast had Phil Simms arm. Simms was good in throwing in the windy Meadowlands. Even when it’s warm and no wind Eli doesn’t have that tight of a spiral.
SJ44 – I agree with Theo’s way of spending. Lets compare the signings so far. Yanks signed the three biggest FAs for a ton of money and years. The Red Sox have signed a bunch of “low-risk, high-ceiling” type of guys for one-year deals. True, they are a big market team, but they already have a ton of “big” guys. What they did is very smart for their team. They already had a good foundation and just needed more depth.
Both the Yanks and Sox had a decent amount of injuries last year. The Sox were able to compete because their replacements contributed. Other than catcher, what position did they really need to sign a guy to a nice multi-year contract?
SJ – the bargain basement strategy isn’t my preference. I’ve been clear that I thought they should have signed Teixeira.
These signings are neither “brilliant” nor “gambling.” The risk is minimal, and the Sox have backup capability if none of the deals work out. I haven’t catalogued every analysis of the signings, so I have no clue as to whether Theo has been deemed a genius because of them.
The fact is that if the Sox keep outperforming the Yankees with a $70M payroll discrepancy, then Theo will be deemed a genius. If the pendulum slides the other way, Cashman will garner similar praise (discounted for the $$$ differential).
GB,
Good point. Tough to kill Eli. No doubt he had a bad game. But, that’s what the playoffs are all about.
No Strahan, Osi, Shockey and Burress from this year’s team. Tuck played the second half of the year on a knee that probably needs surgery. No Tynes healthy enough to kick the longer FG’s.
That’s a lot of playmakers off one team.
My rule of thumb is, when a guy is on an active NFL roster is only a few years younger than me (which Carney is) that’s not a good thing! lol
That’s what makes the playoffs so tough.
You have to be hot, healthy AND lucky. Unfortunately for the Giants, they were none of those things today.
They have a great organization, will make the necessary moves, and be right back in the hunt again next year.
Nick, if I start using simple, declarative sentences the Politically Correct Crowd will be massing at my door.
Shows that the Giants win last year was just a fluke.
Sorry if I missed it but what exactly did Gammons say about Mark’s wife?
How does this show the Giants win last year was a fluke? Its a different team. You are telling me losing Strahan, Osi and Burress did not have a HUGE impact on the way the Giants played?
Brian,
The payroll differential is a meaningless discussion.
The Red Sox decision to keep their payroll that much lower than the Yankees is their choice. They aren’t forced to do so.
That’s why deducting Cashman’s off-season “points” because of payroll is a foolish argument.
As it stands right now, the Yankees payroll going into 2009 is 20 million lower than it was to end last season.
In essence, Cashman has reducded payroll AND improved the team.
That’s what you look for from your GM if you are an owner.
“Shows that the Giants win last year was just a fluke”
No it doesn’t. What it shows is that it’s tough winning Superbowls period.
Only 3 three teams have 5 (Pittsburgh 49′rs Cowboys) No one has 6 No one has 4 and only a select few (including the Giants) have 3.
The only people who say the Giants win last year was a “fluke” are patriots fan.
There is nothing that says “fluke” on the Lombardi Trophy that sits in the Giants Offices.
Just as there is nothing that says “bad call” on the Lombardi Trophy that sits in Foxboro in the wake of the phony “tuck rule” that got them their first Super Bowl.
You play the games and the results stand.
I am still surprised that Arizona is playing so well in the playoffs.
When they came to New England they looked absolutely awful. I think they were beat 47-7.
Good thing I don’t live in Vegas, I would have bet on the Titans, Panthers, and Giants.
The Eli-haters will say Eli has lost in the first round every year except for one year when the defense and luck carried them.
Truth is there are a number of factors in the loss today:
1. Eli struggles in the wind.
2. The team let up late in the year due to the fast start.
3. Plaxico proved irreplacable in season.
4. The strong start by Carney never got Tynes back into FG kicking duties.
5. No pass rush late in the year maybe due to injuries and depth problems.
Oh well, on to baseball season.
Blame ESPN for allowing Gammons to be a Boston mouthpiece. It’s their place to insist on objectivity from analysts and broadcasters that represent the network.
Gammons is long removed from the Boston Globe but his Boston fandom never left from when he wrote for Sports Illustrated and then on to ESPN. It’s reached the point of being contagious with many of his peers at ESPN.
He’s clearly come out of the closet and simply doesn’t care if his Boston bias is known throughout the country.
Gammons needs have one job at his age . . . . a P.R. representative for the team he roots for.
Brian, it’s not your word choice that I object to, it’s the underlying sentiment. Whether you call SJ44 or CB disengenous, specious, or flat-out liars doesn’t make a big difference to me, it’s that you’ve done so without anything more than a difference in opinion or interpretation to back up the charge. By your way of thinking, it’s deliberately disengenuous for you to do so, right? But I prefer to accept your earlier suggestion that you’re just having a very bad off-season.
Giants played very well last year. The Patriots didn’t lose tye game (no turnovers) … the Giants won. Winning twice in a row in today’s NFL is brutal.
SJ – We were talking about Theo being ballyhooed as a “genius,” while Cahsman is not. Withing that context, the payroll differential is very much a part of that discussion.
There’s a body of thought that anyone could have Cashman’s success, given his financial advantage. Does it matter on the field? No. But it does matter in ranking the acumen of the respective front offices.
P.S. I read that Forbes said that the Yankees were $37M in the red in 2007? Is that true?
Brian (Red Sox Fan)
January 11th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
(1) Used to be a Giants fan (going back to Charlie Conerly), and still have a warm spot in my heart for them (except the last SB). But they stank (is that a word?) today. Do I have to root for the Cardinals now? Is Warner an ace? Are the Cardinals a dynasty?
————————————————————
Charlie Conerly was a better roller derby blocker than a quarterback (just kidding). It’s tough to pick between YA Tittle and Fran Tarkington as to which was the better NY quarterback.
GB – Conerly wore a Roller Derby number ….. #42.
No way was last year a fluke for the Giants. They came in with a sound gameplan that beat the Pats. Sure they got lucky on a couple play (Asante’s missed pick and the Helmet Catch) but no more lucky than most Super Bowl winners.
“The risk is minimal, and the Sox have backup capability if none of the deals work out. ”
Not true. It’s minimal risk for a team with the resources of the Red Sox.
That was the whole point of why the Sox were able to sign those players in the first point.
Smoltz only went to the sox because the Braves decided they couldn’t afford the financial risk. That’s it. The Sox could blow $5m and the Braves couldn’t. So for the Braves the risk was way too high. For the Sox the risk was trivial.
Same for Saito and Penny. The dodgers were interested in both of them but couldn’t afford that kind of financial risk.
Funny how baseball works like that? One teams “no risk” is another teams too hot to touch long shot.
BTW your incessant use of terms like disingenuous to describe differences of opinion really is very grating and rather self-righteous.
“We were talking about Theo being ballyhooed as a “genius,” while Cahsman is not. Withing that context, the payroll differential is very much a part of that discussion.”
Sure. Just like the use of “genius” for Theo seems strange given that he’s simply making moves that neither Wren nor Colletti can afford to make.
But again, that’s simply “genius.”
I hate hearing that it was all luck, we won that trophy fairly, you just learn it’s tough to win a championship in any sports, it’s not a given.
One thing the Giants learned losing your # 1 WR hurts, I love Hixon but he is a 2nd option and Steve Smith is a 3rd down guy, we needed a # 1 WR out there and we just didn’t have one and Philly loaded up on our run. You can’t be angry as a Giants fan upset yes, angry No, losing is never easy especially vs Philly but they earned it. Reese will come back stronger through the offseason and we’ll be ready for 09′ w/ a new # 1 WR and probably a stronger #1 DB…props to Micheal Johnson, Justin Tuck, Terrell Thomas and Corey Webster the D came to play.
They can’t take away 2008 that year belonged to us.
CB, But, I thought it was only the Yankees who could afford to over pay for “risks”.
Or, am I being disingenuous?
Paper losses. The YES Network profits more than makes up for any paper losses the Yankees may show.
Why did it take until 2004 for Epstein to become a “genius”?
CB,,Had Texeria signed with Boston, do they still sign these players ????
Tom,
Stop pointing out the truth. It’s just disingenuous.
You don’t see that because well… it has something to do with genius.
“Had Texeria signed with Boston, do they still sign these players ????”
Yes. With the amount of money they had coming off the books they could easily afford these moves. No problem.
The Sox could easily have spent $40-45M on payroll for this upcoming season.
If they’d wanted to pay Tex $200M they could have no problem.
They chose not to.
What really bothers me is that you always hear about how the Yankees have a ton of question marks coming into the 2009 season. I’ve even read a Dan Perry article about how the Yankees signing Teixeira was a ‘big risk.’ (Even though he is not injury prone at all).
But what you NEVER hear/read is that the Red Sox and Rays have just as many question marks as the Yankees do.
Red Sox:
- Who is their starting catcher?
- If Jason Varitex returns, will he have another awful offensive year?
- Will Mike Lowell bounce back from his injury?
- Will David Ortiz bounce back from his injury?
- Will Brad Penny pitch affectively?
- Will John Smoltz pitch affectively?
- Will Dice-K win 18 games like in 08?
- Does Dice-K pitch more than 5-6 innings a start?
- Will Jacoby Elsburry have a better 2009?
- Will Dustin Pedoria repeat his 2008 MVP year?
- Will Jason Bay produce welll in a full AL Year?
- How will Saito peform?
- How will Tim Wakefield handle another season in the AL?
- Will Josh Beckett stay healthy?
- If Josh is not healthy, who replaces his spot in the rotation?
- If Josh is healthy, will he pitch to another 5.00 ERA or be a dominant ace?
- Will Jon Lester have another good season?
With the Tampa Bay Rays, despite them reaching the World Series, almost the whole team is a question mark. IF their young players produce like last season then they are extremely tough to beat. But you also have to understand that if they come back to earth, the Yankees and Red Sox are better than them in my opinion.
I think some people are underestimating the Yankees a little bit, in my opinion. In the past the Yankees have spent a buttload of money on players but they haven’t spent the buttload of money on the type of players Teixeira/Sabathia/Burnett are. That’s what I think certain people forget. These guys are the real deal.
I’m so sick of the Red Sox and Red Sox fans playing the ‘sisters of the poor’ card. Puh-lease. Go talk to a freaking Royals fan or a Pirates fan and try and pull that crap. You’ll be laughed out of the freaking room/board. The FO is just putting in a built in excuse in case they lose to the Yanks this year. That’s it. They can easily spend more than they have, but they choose not to. And, oh, the winter they choose not to is the winter following Henry’s huge losses for his hedge fund? Coincidence, I think not. Henry’s just got to pad his own pockets with the Sox money now instead of investing it back into the team.
You know I’m sure a lot of players do things, they just don’t have to let the whole world know they did it.
Just don’t talk about Matt Clement or Julio Lugo. They don’t exist, at least in Gammon’s world they don’t:
“in Epstein’s six years as general manager, the Red Sox have won two world championships, played in two more ALCS Game 7s and made only two major free-agent acquisitions — Daisuke Matsuzaka and J.D. Drew, both Boras clients. “
I will grant everyone that maybe I am not reading the same articles or press releases, but I obviously follow the Sox fairly closely and I am not seeing these quotes where Theo is being called a genius.
I think the term genius ought to be reserved for people who find a cure for cancer, etc. Giving that label to anyone (Red Sox, Yankee, or other) that works in baseball just seems silly to me.
Ok, this didn’t show up last time I posted it (at least on my screen it didn’t):
Theo is labeled a “genius” for a few reasons. Most importantly, he did what no other GM could do for over eight decades – he assembled a Boston team that won a WS (and did it again a few years later). Secondly, the Sox organization has become the highest standard in baseball. A lot of their players are from their own system. Many of the others are from trades. And aside from a few “big” signings (ie Schilling, Manny, Lugo and Drew to some extent), their FAs have signed for a low number of years and money.
Theo’s way of conducting business in the off-season has led to the development of this system. Both the Sox and Yankees suffered from injuries last year. The difference was that the Sox had more depth. Instead of Ponson or Rasner taking over when Dice-K and Beckett went on the DL, they had Masterson and Colon. Instead of a guy like Betemit replacing Lugo or Lowell, Lowrie and Casey came in (yea he didn’t hit a ton, but he did have a number of big hits and played with a broken wrist for awhile). In addition, when one of their FAs don’t work out, it usually doesn’t cost them much. Pavano’s lack of success with the Yankees was a much bigger deal than Schilling not pitching at all this year, for example
And money does matter. Theo goes against the concept that big market teams should spend millions of dollars on one player. Cashman will not be labeled a “genius” for the contracts of CC, AJ, and Tex. (I’m not saying they were dumb contracts; they were simply neccessary). Boston, other than the catcher position, did not need to fill any position. All they needed was more depth, and through small contracts, they achieved that.
“I’ve even read a Dan Perry article about how the Yankees signing Teixeira was a ‘big risk.’ (Even though he is not injury prone at all).”
Did you read Perry’s article from the day before? If not do so.
It’s about how the yankees are being foolish for not signing Mark Teixeira given how badly they need to upgrade their offense.
Perry was saying that even after signing CC and AJ and trading for Swisher the yanks were a 3rd place team due to their offense. Why oh why is a team of their resources not making such an obvious move in signing Tex?
Literally his next column was the one you were referring to – how signing Tex was a major risk for the yankees.
I can’t understand that paradox but that might be because I’m not a genius.
GreenBeret7
I hope Mark calls him out for making the comment about his wife.
Theo is labeled a “genius” for a few reasons. Most importantly, he did what no other GM could do for over eight decades – he assembled a Boston team that won a WS (and did it again a few years later). Secondly, the Sox organization has become the highest standard in baseball. A lot of their players are from their own system. Many of the others are from trades. And aside from a few “big” signings (ie Schilling, Manny, Lugo and Drew to some extent), their FAs have signed for a low number of years and money.
Theo’s way of conducting business in the off-season has led to the development of this system. Both the Sox and Yankees suffered from injuries last year. The difference was that the Sox had more depth. Instead of Ponson or Rasner taking over when Dice-K and Beckett went on the DL, they had Masterson and Colon. Instead of a guy like Betemit replacing Lugo or Lowell, Lowrie and Casey came in (yea he didn’t hit a ton, but he did have a number of big hits and played with a broken wrist for awhile). In addition, when one of their FAs don’t work out, it usually doesn’t cost them much. Pavano’s lack of success with the Yankees was a much bigger deal than Schilling not pitching at all this year, for example
And money does matter. Theo goes against the concept that big market teams should spend millions of dollars on one player. Cashman will not be labeled a “genius” for the contracts of CC, AJ, and Tex. (I’m not saying they were dumb contracts; they were simply neccessary). Boston, other than the catcher position, did not need to fill any position. All they needed was more depth, and through small contracts, they achieved that.
“I obviously follow the Sox fairly closely and I am not seeing these quotes where Theo is being called a genius.”
Google Theo Epstein and genius and you get 9500 hits.
Here’s a terrific headline from a paper in Mass about the Manny trade:
“With Manny Ramirez gone to the Dodgers, Theo Epstein’s a Red Sox genius again”
This is not ironic.
Here’s the theme of the article:
“Theo Epstein is wearing that genius cap. With the clock literally ticking on the club’s immediate future, he sent Ramirez to the Dodgers in a deal that brings outfielder Jason Bay to Boston, and sends Craig Hansen and Brandon Moss to the Pirates.”
What’s most interesting about the article is the term “again.” As if genius had somehow become something droll.
Kind of like Einstein discovering special relativity after already having explained the photoelectric effect. Something like that.
http://www.masslive.com/sports.....20Chimelis
Ray (the good Red Sox fan), you’re forgetting Billy Beane. Everyone agrees than he’s an actual genius because.. well, just because. Better not to ask too many questions.
We will soon see if ‘genius’ is spelled m-a-n-n-y with a Bahstan accent.
CB _ We’re saying the same thing. A minmal risk for the Red sox is a significant risk for KC.
By the way, I’ve never called Theo a genius (or disengenuous). SJ was railing about the media love affair with Theo, relative to Cashman. There’s no question that Theo has organizational resources which give him an equivalent advantage over other teams.
Here’s another theory. Isn’t Theo much taller than Cashman? Isn’t there research proving that taller men are better perceived than shorter men? Maybe it’s that simple …
CB -
I actually read that article and was stunned that Perry would say the Yankees were a third place team. So let me get this straight: the Yankees win over 80 games with a rotation of Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina, Carl Pavano, Sidney Ponson, and Darrel Rasner. So the Yankees upgrade their rotation by signing a pitcher who carried a team to the post season in CC Sabathia and sign a pitcher who won 18 games in the American League East in A.J. Burnett. Albeit, Burnett is injury prone but his arm is electric. If he is true to his word and has learned how to pitch, he will probably be the best Yankee pitcher in the rotation.
THEN to further improve their offense AND defense, they sign Mark Teixeira. But despite all of that, they are STILL a third place team?
Dan Perry = fail
People need to stop underestimating the Yankees
Does this sound right?
Plaxico=Manny
Eli=Papi
When Plax and Manny were gone… Eli/Papi became….. ordinary.
just got back from that terrible game. I don’t care what anyone says that series from 9:30 on in the fourth quarter was the worst I’ve seen in a long time with this team, no sense of urgency whatsoever. Where’s the hurry up? Eli is his best in the no huddle. Why start the game passing when you have five yards a pop running? Why in god’s name is Tynes on the roster over manningham if he doesn’t kick the long field goals? Giants have been bad offensively for weeks, no big threat. No receiver who is gonna go up and make a play. Gilbride needs to take the raiders job and hopefully spaggs stock fell LOL and the half time show sucked! Wang is not an ace!
jennifer
January 11th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
GreenBeret7
I hope Mark calls him out for making the comment about his wife.
Leave a Reply
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I really don’t know if Teixeira will say anything, but, I doubt that he ever consents to an interview.
I googled “theo genius” and this came up:
http://votigo.com/contests/showentry/36618
So maybe the ‘genius’ bar is actually not all that high.
Nick in SF
You certainly have a gift for coming up with some funny and creative things.
Not true, Nick. That dog’s I.Q is 225.
“We’re saying the same thing. A minmal risk for the Red sox is a significant risk for KC.”
No we are not. We’re not saying the same thing at all. You’re just now trying to claim that there we are – which I’ve now noticed you do a lot when the facts don’t line up with what you’ve said.
I’ve read everyone of your posts and nowhere did you state how what for the Red Sox was a “no risk” moves was prohibitively risky for other teams. Not even once did you suggest that the sox had that advantage.
Instead you said things like:
“But it’s apples and oranges. Bargain hunting as opposed to top dollar.”
So these recent acquisitions were simply “bargain hunting” which they weren’t at all for the dodgers or the braves.
Instead you only keep harping on that point with respect to the Yankee and the sox.
Even in this last post why did you possibly bring up the Royals? I never mentioned them. In fact they are completely irrelevant as Penny, Saito and Smoltz didn’t play for them.
But it is a much more rhetorically disingenuous maneuver to cite the Royals as it’s a trivial statement to compare the Sox resources to the lowly Royals rather than to make the more accurate comparison which would be the Sox resources compared to the Dodgers and Braves – two teams with significant resources themselves.
So we are not making the same point in any way. I’m making the point that is the logical extension of your gripes about the yankees vs. the sox and this absurd notion of genius. You just find that inconvenient, which I can understand as the view from a soap box can get a little blurry.
The Rays beat the Sox with 1/3 the payroll this year. Theo is a buffoon who has no plan and Friedman is a genius!! There you go.
Rob: if reports of Mrs. Wang’s pregnancy are accurate, you’ve sold Chien-ming short yet again.
ray: thank you. And let me say in return that you have a gift for disagreeing without being disagreeable and being a Sox fan here without being a whiny baby (there, Brian, you got your snark).
“Blame ESPN for allowing Gammons to be a Boston mouthpiece. It’s their place to insist on objectivity from analysts and broadcasters that represent the network.”
Um, you think ESPN is going to insist on objectivity from anyone? the network who gave a show to Barry Bonds instead of investigating why he somehow put up unreal numbers at age 38,39 and 40 while every other player in the history of the game has their numbers decline at that age?
Fox News might be objective before ESPN.
The most recent info on the two Cuban defectors, Yadel Marti and Yasser Gomez.
***Marti, Gomez Open To All Teams***
***By Steve Adams [January 11 at 5:06pm CST***
***A couple weeks ago, we covered Cuban stars Yadel Marti and Yasser Gomez defecting to the United States. Laura Albanese at Newday has an update on the pair, and their hopes to make it to the big leagues***
***The two hope to be represented by Jaime Torres, agent of Yuniesky Betancourt and Jose Contreras. Torres says they’re both Major League caliber and are capable of playing in the big leagues immediately. They’re currently working out in Melville, NY***
***Marti, 29, is hailed as one of Cuba’s best pitchers. The right hander was their ace in the 2006 World Baseball Classic, throwing 12.2 scoreless innings. Gomez, 28, is a speedy outfielder and career .331 hitter in Cuba. He hit .397 over a 66-game span in Cuba’s 2008 national series tournament***
***In the video link on the right side, the two say they’re thankful to have a chance to play in the Majors, and are open to any teams because they’re playing to support their families. They do, however, specifcially mention the Yankees, White Sox, and Red Sox by name***
My ommission…the above into was from MLB-Rumors-R-Us.
Obviously the Cuban pitcher should be an interest for us as he is interested in us.
I’m sure Cash and co know how good he is and if he can be had for a reasonable amount he could be a factor in our rotation if he’s that good.
Another iron in the fire.
CB – Context is everything. The initial discussion was within the context of RS/Yankees.
(1) SJ compared the RJ, Wright, etc. signings to Smoltz, Penny, etc.
(2) SJ opined that there was no difference in the signings, and that nobody gave Cashman equivalent credit.
(3) I countered that his analogy was flawed. Within the context of RS/Yankees, the Yankees paid top dollar/max years, and the Sox had minimum risk.
(4) You injected that it was minimum risk for the RS, and that would not be the case with other teams. It was YOU who injected other teams into the discussion.
(5) So, when you injected the other teams, I agreed that you were consistent with my original premise – that the RS signings were minimal risk for them, but not for most other teams.
(6) Nonetheless, the Yankee signings and RS were NOT analogous, regardless of whether the RS signings were “risky.”
I am VERY selective about what I say, and choose my words carefully. Please let me characterize my own position. AS I stated previously, I have never stated that Theo is a genius. My primary focus was on the bogus analogy presented by SJ to “prove” that the Red Sox get too much credit for their transactions.
That may well be the case, but SJ’s post didn’t prove it.
IMO the reason we signed Teixeira and our hated rivals did not is simple – the Red Sox can win it this year without him, and we could not. Teixeira would have replaced Lowell for them, and he is going to replace Swisher or Gardner for us.
In the end, only one team could have him, and they blinked because he just wasn’t worth as much to them as to us.
You can say all you want that Theo is a genius, or that Cashman played his hand masterfully, or that Henry spit the bit or the Yanks just buy players.
The fact is, we don’t know. We don’t know whether $170MM or $180MM or $200MM was the right and proper amount to pay, or why the Sox stopped where they did. If they bid $190MM and we bid $200MM, we’d be having exactly the same discussion.
i had to turn the giants game off after towards the end, i just couldnt watch anymore
i hope the time left for baseball season to start goes by quick!
“Meanwhile, why don’t the Yankees have any public events that include star players, the GM and the manager taking questions?”
Because it’s early Jan and there is no freaking reason for it? Girardi and Cash shouldn’t have to listen to your nonsense this early.
“Hopefully the improved facilities at the new Stadium will help lead to such things.”
Hopefully not. Unlike the Red Sox, the Yankees don’t seem to think the sporting world revolves around them. Go watch football Pete.
Interesting. Theo is a genius. The 2004 and 2007 Red Sox were each the most expensive WS Champions ever. Let’s see him win another one with old has beens and broken down parts.
“Obviously the Cuban pitcher should be an interest for us as he is interested in us.”
I prefer the CF. Heck they can sign them both. Ok I got step out now.
you gotta have faith-
Pitchers and catchers in 33 days
“Please let me characterize my own position. ”
Good point. Which is why you shouldn’t keep implying other people are “disingenuous” when they disagree with you on opinion.
Because they you’re really only mischaracterizing their intentions.
Is the Cuban pitcher really 29?
Is there any scouting report on the pitcher, how hard does he throw? what pitches does he have?
I’m thinking the Yanks should be in on both Cuban defectors. We can always use pitching and our OF situation is still murky in CF and everywhere after this year. I could see both of them being fits for the Yanks. Would have to think the opportunity for them to play together would be a plus.
“I am VERY selective about what I say, and choose my words carefully. Please let me characterize my own position.”
So is it safe to say that you stand by the “disengenuous” and “specious” characterizations you’ve made of others’ positions? Or is that a one-way courtesy?
CB, you beat me to it. My laptop is acting up!
I want Cubans.
Tom,
lol hopefully very quick 33 days!
For the Red Sox fans and whoever else that like to bash the Yanks payroll, know this: Many owners in baseball could invest in their own team, however, many choose not to. The other owners like to collect the luxury tax and line their own pockets. Every nteam in sports wishes that they had ownership that cared as much as the Yankees do.
This is the best report on Yadel Marti I could find:
“Martí is not a hard-throwing pitcher as his fastball ranges around 87-90 mph. He relies instead on a slider, sinker, curveball and control”
http://www.baseball-reference......adel_Marti
Nick,
Don’t you know that one way courtesies are what makes the world go round?
For instance, its completely true that when the yankees make what is really a minimal risk move for them but would not be for other teams (e.g. sign Jarrett Wright) it’s paying top dollar.
But when the Sox make what is a minimal risk move for them (e.g. sign smoltz) but is definitely not for other teams then it’s “bargain hunting.”
The best part of the Smoltz signing was the Red Sox the commentators and fans who were actually arguing that Smoltz signing with the Sox was a “win-win” situation for both the Sox and the Braves.
That was some of the more remarkable cognitive dissonance I’ve seen in baseball recently. People actually stating that well Smoltz wouldn’t have made any financial sense for the Braves so the Braves are “winners” by the sox having signed him. The Braves in essence were lucky to have the Sox around to look out for the braves best interests.
It’s as if the Sox were doing the braves a favor by signing one of the most iconic players in their franchises’ history away from them. They did it out of generosity and caring.
And genius of course.
When I read the headline to this post, Pete, I thought you were referring to the fact that Epstein has been outperforming Cashman like whoa this offseason. I would take Smoltz for 1/5 mil and Penny for 1/5 mil (plus incentives) ANY DAY over the enourmous and enourmously stupid contracts Cashman handed to Sabathia, and especially, AJ Burnett.
Granted, CC is a fine pitcher, but there is no way he deserves 24 mil per yr if Smoltz is worth 5 mil. Smoltz is not less than half as valuable as Burnett. Raul Ibanez is not less than half as valuable than Mark Tex.
The bottom line is Cashman grossly overpaid for these guys. It’s a joke how much more well run the Red Sox are than the Yankees right now — it truly makes me cringe. Epstein is simply makes mcuh smarter decisions than Cashman.
Wow 161 pounds seems liek we got a buddy for edwar
IMO risk is risk.
In the performance sense, Smoltz and Penny are equally risky, whether the Sox or, say, the Nationals sign him.
In a marginal sense, you could argue that they are more risky for the Sox, since they have a vastly better chance to make the playoffs than the Nats. The leveraging, as it were, of the variability of Smoltz’s and Penny’s future performance matter vastly more to the Sox.
Wave,
Risk isn’t simply risk. In general when people refer to it in the context of contracts they are talking about financial risk.
But your point is a good one. Because there are lots of other kinds of risks and costs that people tend to overlook.
There’s the risk of variation in performance as you pointed out. This is why Gardner is a risk for the yankees even though he’s making league minimum. There the risk of using up a spot on the big league roster, on the 40 man, etc.
And perhaps more importantly there’s opportunity cost. For the cost of Penny and Smoltz the sox may have been able to sign Ben Sheets for a year. But they chose not to. So there is risk there as well.
I agree with your point but I think the point is a more natural conclusion from the diversity of risk that exist.
Nick — Years ago, I was given some excellent instruction on the difference between the denotation and connotation of words. Words can have similar denotations, but different connotations. The word “liar” expresses a fatal flaw in the person’s character – it has a very negative connotation. I did not use it.
The words “specious” and “disengenuous” characterize debating techniques, wherein “deceptive attraction” is used.
Presidential candidates often claim that the opponent is using disengenuous arguments.
That doesn’t mean that the opponent has lying in his DNA. It is a reference to that specific argument at that specific time. Everyone tilts their arguments to fit their own position.
To posit a faulty analogy in order to make a debating point is indeed disengenuous. But the connotation of that word (and specious) should not be over-evaluated.
I respect people like CB, SJ, yourself and many others on this board. I’ll not back away from my characterization of the SJ analogy, and am sorry if others find it personally offensive. That was not my intent.
Now it doesn’t even matter that ESPN is basically the home office for the Red Sox as MLB network has stolen a lot of their thunder. I’ll be interested to see what the ratings are for Baseball Tonight as against the Hot Stove League show once we get closer to ST. All I know is (granted, I’ve only been on Yankee boards) that ESPN is almost non-existent now. There’s just no reason to watch, especially if you love baseball.
watching the 1989 playoff game on mlb channel reminds me again what a great TV guy Tony Kubek was. WHy was it again that he got fired by George??
Regarding the last guest post, It was nice to read something about hughes and the younger guys for once as opposed to the constant posts about remembering the old stadium which frankly, although nice, is getting old.
I love Phil Hughes. I have been watching and waiting patiently for years now. And I am a huge proponent of the yanks adding another arm. Why some may ask if you like hughes so much, are you determined to block him from the rotation next season? Its a simple answer. One, I think hughes will benefit more from starting in the minors rather than being forced to fill the last spot in the rotation. Two, injuries inevitably arise and I have no doubt, bu june hughes will be filling in at the major league level or at the very least, helping out joba in keeping his innings limit to keep him healthy.
i have no doubt hughes will be great. Even after last year, the kid remains extremely promising and continues to impress any one who bothers to look against minor league hitters even of the highest caliber. But i like im sure many in the organization think, do not feel he is ready to jump into the majors right from spring training. It would by far more beneficial for him, the organization and the fans to have him start in triple A and move up the majors at some point later in the season. Signing another arm does far more than giving the yanks more pitching depth. iT Strengthens a rotation that is already one of the better ones in the major league. And perhaps most importantly, it lets hughes and kennedy come up when they are ready to do so – a luxury that they did NOT have last year. I hope and pray cash realizes this and will do his best to sign another arm capable of giving us 200 innings. If not to help the team win, at the very least he should do it to help the young kids develop, mature and come to the majors when they are ready to dominate.
So don’t ‘over-evaluate’ your rhetorical excesses since it’s not your intent to offend. Gotcha.
Question:
If I told you all that Tiki Barber was working the carpet at the Golden Globes would you consider his presence there “specious” or would it be “disingenuous”?
Nick – Touche’
disingenuous
No offense meant, as I am one of the worst spellers on the blog. However it has appeared so many times in the past few entries.
Wow!…..Someone actually thinks the Penny and Smoltz signings are better than the Yanks signings….funny.
Let Hughes, Coke, and Aceves battle it out for the #4 slot in the rotation. Keeps the youth movement moving.
Yanks 4 Aces (CC/AJ/Wang/Joba) plus 1 = all ya need.
Lots of interesting discussion on the potential risks involved in signing both Penny and Smoltz.
As a Sox fan I am worried about the signing of both Penny and Smoltz. Just my opinion that it would have been better to sign one of those two and to sign a different pitcher that isn’t such an injury risk in the other spot.
If the Sox had signed just one of those two then if that one ends up on the DL for a long time it is not so disruptive to the starting rotation. But if both Penny and Smoltz have extended stays on the DL during the season it obviously is more problematical.
As for the catching position, I think that Boras overestimated the market for Varitek and that Varitek has to be kicking himself for not accepting arbitration. I anticipate that one of the young pitchers might be part of a trade for a catcher. I don’t think Bucholtz is as untouchable as he was earlier in terms of a trade.
What exactly do the nationals have to offer the yanks for nady? Would this be a salary dump to sign a pitcher or are we look at milledge to fill the CF spot? I agree it would be nice to dump nady;s salary, fill a need with milledge and then, use the salary to fill another need (the fourth spot in the rotation). is that the plan? I know the nats contacted the yanks and not the either way around but all appearances point to the yanks interested in someone. Outside of milledge I cant imagine who. Unless milledge’s attitude has changed since the mets trading him mainly because of that reason, I am not too fond of him.
lol
Jay Mohr makes fun of red sox nation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
sevrox,
it is perfectly feasible to sign another arm and have all of joba, hughes, kennedy and aceves pitch on the major league club in some capacity. Starting the year depending on those four to fill two spots and injury risk would be a HUGE mistake equivalent to the error committed last season when cash decided to rely on those four to fill the fourth and fifth spot after Wang, Moose and pettitte (none of which represented significant injury risk). The major difference this year is that Wang and AJ represent considerable injury risk coming off a severe injury and a disturbing injury history respectively.
CB,
I was discussing that exact sentiment yesterday – the fact that risk is not just player risk but the combination of player risk and contract signed. Few seem to understand that while AJ was healthy of last year, a five year contract represents considerable risk not just because AJ is risky health-wise but signing a player to a five year contract when he has never been healthy for 2 consecutive years in a nine year career dramatically increases that risk. The argument doesnt seem to go over well in this blog however so I stopped debating it. But the idea is nonetheless very true.
brian ( red sox fan)-
i really don’t care how the yankees beat the red sox as long as they beat them. you can denounce the amount of money paid to yankees players, but the fact remains when the yankees beat the red sox it is because the team on the field is a better team.
right now , it’s likely the yankees are the better team on the field. if the red sox want to catch up by doing it on the cheap and trying to sign players from the scrap heap like they did in the past with wade miller, matt mantei,and willy mo pena that’s their business.
are the red sox going to lose money if they pay more to get quality players? it seems to me your beef about getting players like sabathia, teixeira,and burnett should really be taken up with red sox ownership that chooses to keep the fans money for themselves.
The Red Sox signings and the Yankees signings (pitchers) are not really all that comparable. The needs of each team are very different. Yankees were looking for front-line starters; Red Sox basically need complementary guys – back end guys.
Smoltz could have been an interesting addition to the Yankees, though. I’m not saying they should have done it, but I’ll bet they thought about it. If all was going well with his rehab, he could have been used as the 8th inning set-up guy and then in the rotation to ease Joba’s innings limits. However, they still need that 5th starter, before they could even think about taking on Smoltz, because he wouldn’t have been able to fill that position.
RJ had a bad back, but I think overall he was still effective. My impression is that Penny is more of a question mark than Johnson was at the time.
The problem here is really that it is simply not politic for the Yankees to get any credit for anything they do. There is no logic required here. It has been going on forever. And it will continue to be the case as long as the Yankees are a financially successful franchise that also fields a contending/winning team.
Ray,
If the sox were relying on Smoltz and penny to fill two positions without any backup plan I would agree. But fact is, they have more than seven potential starters currently on the rotation all of whom I assume will start in the minor leagues including Lester, Beckett, Dice k, Buckholz and Masterson among others. I think that significantly lessens the risk of those two. And i think saito was a brilliant signing for 1.5 mil guaranteed. i CANT believe no team in baseball gave him a better offer than that coming off three consecutive seasons of stellar ball with only a severe injury after 45 innings last year. I dont know all the facts surrounding saito but i cant imagine 1.5 mil isnt worth the risk for that arm. i WISH the yanks made that signing – this signing will probably pay off big dividends for epstein ala Okajima back in 2007. I wish cash would sign a few more low risk contract/high risk/high reward players.
dave
January 11th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
What exactly do the nationals have to offer the yanks for nady? Would this be a salary dump to sign a pitcher or are we look at milledge to fill the CF spot? I agree it would be nice to dump nady;s salary, fill a need with milledge and then, use the salary to fill another need (the fourth spot in the rotation). is that the plan? I know the nats contacted the yanks and not the either way around but all appearances point to the yanks interested in someone. Outside of milledge I cant imagine who.
——–
Manny
“As a Sox fan I am worried about the signing of both Penny and Smoltz. Just my opinion that it would have been better to sign one of those two and to sign a different pitcher that isn’t such an injury risk in the other spot.”
ray,
I think that’s a very reasonable position. I don’t think this is a situation where there are a lot of clear “rights” or “wrongs” for the sox.
It depends on how the Sox want to distribute risk.
And I think it also depends on what the sox overall strategy is.
For instance, if they feel that Bucchholz just needs 1/2 season in AAA to start the year – you’d look at this moves in one way.
If they trade Bucchholtz you’d look at them in an entirely different way.
With these proverbial “low risk high-reward” moves context matters a lot and that’s hard for anyone outside of the organization to know.
They chose to sign Penny and Smoltz in stead of trying to see if Sheets could be signed for a one year deal. Are sheets medicals really that much worse than Penny’s/Smoltz’s? I don’t know. Would Sheets have taken a one year deal? It looks like he may be forced to. Perhaps he gets two years.
I know the Sox generally don’t sign players over 35 but I’ve been surprised that they haven’t even kicked the tires on Lowe. Given how bad he seemed to have wanted to return to Boston I would have thought they’d offered him a 2-3 year deal and see if he would have bitten. But again, they know him very well.
More than right or wrong these moves are really about chosing how you want to make trade offs. And that depends on the larger context your working on.
The main thing I think the Sox do need to plan for is what happens if we get nothing from Penny, Smoltz and Saito? What do we do then? As long as they have a viable set of options that can succeed in the AL East then these moves are reasonable.
But I agree with you – I personally would have tried to upgrade the rotation after losing Tex in a more stable way.
But it’s still early in the Sox off season so we’ll see.
The varitek situation is a mess – hard to believe he didn’t accept arbitration. That was a generous offer by the sox and he turned it down. Odd.
For you guys, it seems to me, catcher is now the big question and these moves on Smoltz, Penny, etc. are somewhat ancillary.
I think the sox off season will be most influenced by the decisions that go into what to do with catcher.
That’s the position you could get the most “bang for your buck” on compared to the offense of last year.
Tough decision because a major upgrade will likely cost Bucchholz. Teams just don’t have a lot of motivation to trade a good young catcher unless it’s a deal they think makes sense.
If the sox want montero but won’t include bowden then I’d guess the D’Backs will be fine with that. They don’t seem very motivated to trade montero as it is. Same for the Rangers.
Vrsce
If you download firefox it has spell check.
Dave,
I don’t follow the National League too much so I didn’t know that much about Saito, but I agree that it looks like a good signing for the Sox.
You are correct that they have quite a few potential starters. But I am thinking right now that Masterson may be used in the bullpen as he was effective there last year.
Bucholtz is a big question mark and so these two things potentially reduces the number of possible starters.
The Yankee/Sox games should be most interesting this year as you guys have really improved in my opinion.
Bucholz similar to hughes has lost significant value in the past year. Both were a disaster in 2008 and trading them would be the equivalent of team ownership saying we were wrong and we give up. With the talent both of these two maintain, trading either pitcher now would be huge mistakes on the part of the GM. It is one thing if the yanks chose last year to trade hughes for santana – granted, cash would have taken a lot of heat but most would have realized the height of hughes value and the fact that while hughes was no sure thing, santana was for the most part a sure thing. Therefore, it may not have been a smart decision but it would have been at least reasonable to explain at the time. Trading them now, would be a disaster with the type of talent either of those two could get back at this point far below the actual value of either player.
Randy 1 – I’m sure that you’re hearing on the Cape what is going around here – that the Sox blew it with Teixeira and are acting like a mid-market team. Right now, I believe that their payroll is about $110M, and “all” they need is a catcher. I join those who are not pleased at this unnecessary frugality.
AS I’ve said before, the current system helps the Sox almost as much as the Yankees, and the Sox have frittered away the advantage. I posted (weeks before the Teixeira signing) that I couldn’t understand why the Yankees weren’t pursuing Teixeira. Silly me.
If they signed Manny next, it wouldn’t surprise me. Or maybe sign Matt Cassel and give him to the Jets.
P.S. Mantei and Miller were injured FA “risks.” Theo actually gave away a very affordable Bronson Arroyo for Willy Mo Pena.
Not one of his “genius” moments.
Saito will be in trouble if those stem cells in his shoulder grow into a second head. Unless it’s the head of a gritty gamer.
http://tinyurl.com/9tdr7j
Dave: any pitcher comes with risk. There’s nothing wrong with letting Cokes, Hughes, Aceves, whomever battle it out and the losers of the competition will step in for somebody who may lose time due to injury.
Nobody else needs to be signed for the rotation.
Oh – wait a minute – like any cyber-discussion-argument only one of us can be right or have an opinion.
Almost forgot.
“The main thing I think the Sox do need to plan for is what happens if we get nothing from Penny, Smoltz and Saito? What do we do then?”
CB, I entirely agree with your evaluation. I think you said it better than I did. I just would have been more comfortable if the Sox had signed one pitcher with considerable health issues, rather than two starting pitchers and a relief pitcher with injury concerns.
If we get nothing from those three it could well be a very long season for Sox fans.
But I know you would feel our pain. Just kidding.
Doreen
January 11th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Smoltz could have been an interesting addition to the Yankees, though. I’m not saying they should have done it, but I’ll bet they thought about it. If all was going well with his rehab, he could have been used as the 8th inning set-up guy and then in the rotation to ease Joba’s innings limits. However, they still need that 5th starter, before they could even think about taking on Smoltz, because he wouldn’t have been able to fill that position.
————————————————————
The issue between the Braves and Smoltz was that they were leaning on the possibility of putting Smoltz back in the bullpen. Smoltz wants to start, only. Right now, Smoltz isn’t expected to be ready to pitch in the majors before mid-May or the 1st of June.
Doreen,
I love the yankees but you have to realize why the yanks dont get credit for what they do right now. The yanks have unbelievable resources when compared with the rest of baseball with the ability to even outspend the team right below them by a good 70 million. Combine that little fact with the reality that the yanks while dramatically increasing payroll almost eveyr year from 2000 to now have slowly been eliminated earlier and earlier each season failing to make the playoffs last season with a payroll over 200 million and far above any other team in the MLB. It isnt that complicated to realize why cash gets a lot of criticism – whether or not the moves were his is largely irrelevant.
His job is to use the yanks resources to trade and sign players to make the team better. hE has spent tremendous sums of money with little or no success in his number one goal of improving the team so far. And with some of the largest blunders in MLB history like Igawa essentially a minor league player for 40 million and pavano who gave us 26 starts for 40 mil over the course of 4 years for a grand total of 1.5 mil per start cash deserves all the criticism he gets/
WHich in my opinion, is far below the criticism that should be bestowed upon him in the harsh environment among NY spots media. Hopefully, cash has turned a corner in his career but signing AJ for five years falls completely on cash’s shoulders. And while he should be trying to move away from his label of signing injury prone players to ridiculous contract, the AJ signing was a bold move that could easily blow up in his face. I for one, am shocked that he would take that kind of risk with this move having the ability to greatly impact his career. But apparently cash is putting his own fate in AJ’s hands and completely willing to do so.
“are the red sox going to lose money if they pay more to get quality players? it seems to me your beef about getting players like sabathia, teixeira,and burnett should really be taken up with red sox ownership that chooses to keep the fans money for themselves.”
The Sox have around $35M coming off their books. That’s around 25% of their 2008 payroll. They’ve now spent an additional 11M or so.
So just to get back to 2009 payroll they would still need to spend $25M.
And of course I’m sure that they’re 2009 revenues will grow compared to their 2008 revenues so if they continued spending at the same rate they probably could have fielded a team of around $140-145M without too much difficulty.
And ticket prices are pretty steep at Fenway. It’ll be interesting to see what happens if they miss the playoffs with a $115M pay roll.
It’s one thing to complain about yankees spending. Very different thing to complain about it when you chose not to spend $30M you could afford just based on 2008 payroll.
“The issue between the Braves and Smoltz was that they were leaning on the possibility of putting Smoltz back in the bullpen.”
GB7,
It was money. Pure and simple that was it. Smoltz himself said it and that’s what he told Chipper Jones as well. It was money. He was unhappy with the Braves offer, thought it was “disrespectful” and signed with the Sox because there was a “considerable” difference in the offers. It was money not use.
I don’t quite understand the Red Sox fans boasting about all these recent bargain basement signings.
Will ticket prices at Fenway Park be reduced accordingly?
ray,
did the sox pass completely on lowe do to his age or due to their past experience with him? They showed no interest at all.
How do sox fans feel about that? It seems like many Sox fans didn’t want him back.
I personally like Lowe quite a bit. I think he’s a very good pitcher. He’d be particularly effective in front of the sox plus infield defense.
Catcher is really the place where a big pick up on offense could come from for you guys. Not sure how they fill that spot. Honestly, bringing Varitek back if the FO is worried about the line up wouldn’t be a good move. He was 12 runs worse than a league average catcher last year and if he deteriorates further he could wind up 15 runs worse. That’s a big hole.
brian( red sox fan)-
maybe john henry is hurting more financially than is public knowledge. if he was the latest hedge fund manager to be discovered swimming naked it wouldn’t be a total shock. the red sox have 40 million to spend. why they are not doing it is anyone’s guess.
Sevrox,
Of course, i respect your opinion and neither one of us have to be right or wrong necessarily. But have you completely forgotten last year already? We went in with a rotation of Wang, pettitte, Moose, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy and friends. While we were extremely unlucky with wang, injuries happen and the team has to set itself up to be able to overcome them without fading into oblivion due to the injuries of a couple of key players. This is why i want depth this year.
Just because this years rotation stands as CC, wang, AJ, Joba, Hughes, Aceves and friends which appears to be much stronger does not mean it is any less risky. AJ if anything is much more of a risk than pettitte or moose was last year. I would like to think that the yanks have the ability to learn from their mistakes. While i dont disagree that the yanks could be fine with this rotation, one or two major injuries can completely destroy their hopes of making the playoffs after spending ginormous sums of money to do so. Why take that kind of risk after spending sooo much money on pitching? All we need to do is spend another 10 to 12 mil to sign another starter and avoid the pitfalls that come with relying on completely unproven talent like hughes and aceves for filling in a rotation spot.
After the amount of money the yanks have already spent, i think that is a small sum to ensure that injuries dont have as big an impact on the club. This is all opinions but based on the horrendous effect wang’s injury had on the rotation last year i dont think it is neseccary or smart to go the same route this season.
Lets just say the roles were reversed and the soxs signed the players who the Yankees did, and the Yankees the soxs did. Everyone in baseball would be laughing at the Yankees going bargain basement hunting and how foolish the Yankees would be to rely on 3 injury prone and plagued players.
Smoltz will pay off for Boston, just about the time Penny is done for the second half of the season…….I’m 0-4 this weekend in the NFL…..Very spirited banter this afternoon…..Very insightful, a course in verbage and content….
CB
I understand that there was some discussion about Derek Lowe, but that the FO was not willing to pay what Lowe and Boras are looking for.
I heard the figure of 16 million per year and at least a 3 year contract which is 4 million more than what the Mets offered.
I too am surprised that the Sox didn’t explore a little further the possibility of bringing Lowe back especially since he publicly stated he wanted to come to Boston.
Lowe had the reputation of being a headcase when he was with Boston, but he consistently pitches 200+ innings and usually gives his team a chance to win. That type of pitcher is valuable but I guess a difference in opinion between Boras and the Boston FA on how valuable.
I really don’t have a sense for what the Sox will do with the catching position. Right now it is a glaring and huge hole with Boston.
The clock is ticking and I think it would be imperative to have the catching position all set up before spring training.
GreenBeret7 -
Two things about Smoltz with regard to Braves/Sox. One is the article I read had to do with the amount of money the Braves were going to offer him. Not even in the same stratosphere as what the Sox offered, and the incentives the Sox included were also superior to what the Braves were going to offer. I did not read anything in the article I read saying that there was a disagreement with how he was going to be used by the Braves.
Second, with regard to the Red Sox starting Smoltz – one of the first things I heard about this was the the Sox could use Smoltz in the bullpen at the outset, gradually increasing his innings so that he could start for them by the end of the season. Now, it’s true, I did not get that from a Red Sox source – just some guy on ESPN – but given that ESPN is a spokes-outlet for the RSN, I’d say there’s probably some credibility there.
dave -
What you said about the Yankees financial resources is true, but I think it’s almost always been true about the Yankees. What I meant is that the standards for the Yankees will always be higher, but also, it is more likely that the Yankees are going to be criticized than lauded.
And Cash has been criticized widely by the NY media and many NY fans, as has the entire organization, for not being able to parlay the spending and trades into a World Series victory since 2000. But lest we not forget, the Yankees have not been out of contention for over a decade. The spending hasn’t put the Yankees over the top, but they haven’t been losers by a long shot. Even last season, which was by far the least satisfying regular season of any in recent memory, they actually had a shot for the wild card.
I think we’ve all bought into the World Championship or failure crapola far too much. Cash and co. put the team in a position to get a WS championship in all but the last season – they got to the playoffs. They fizzled, so it wasn’t enough. But how many other teams have the same track record.
Also, when taking a flyer on guys, you have to be just as ready for a nosedive as for soaring success. And Kei Igawa was never, ever held out to be anything but a #5 starter. It didn’t work. Plain and simple. Perhaps not enough due diligence was done on how he particularly would assimilate to MLB, but he had the goods in Japan. He wasn’t some scrub over there.
randy,
Completely off topic… But we’ve talked a lot about statistics and their role in baseball and in that light I was wondering if you happened to read Joe Nocera’s piece in the NY Times last week on risk management and the role of computerized trading/statistics in the financial crisis. If not take a look. It’s a very well written piece on what is otherwise a fairly esoteric topic.
Though they are controversial, the statistics used in baseball are very, very simple. Trivial compared to the statistics that are influencing our daily lives more and more even at the most mundane levels (e.g. the disappearance of paper coupons for those “discount cards at the supermarket…).
Nocera talks a lot about computers but the computerized aspect of the financial crisis is secondary to its statistical aspect. That article communicates those issues well.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01.....isk-t.html
CB
January 11th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
“The issue between the Braves and Smoltz was that they were leaning on the possibility of putting Smoltz back in the bullpen.”
GB7,
It was money. Pure and simple that was it. Smoltz himself said it and that’s what he told Chipper Jones as well. It was money. He was unhappy with the Braves offer, thought it was “disrespectful” and signed with the Sox because there was a “considerable” difference in the offers. It was money not use.
————————————————————
Yeah, money was an issue, but, so was the bullpen issues. It was played out in the local papers and on talk shows. Of course, both were hammered on the subject….greed….no loyalty….no respect, but, it’s running about 75% blame on the team.
The Yanks spent the off-season at Tiffany’s. the Red Sawx at Filene’s. We’ll see how it plays out.
Smoltz proved himself to be just like every other money grabbing whore out there. Loyalty means nothing to any of these people. Pettite is putting himself in the same boat if he decides $ 10 million just isn’t enough “respect”. The Braves paid Smoltz a fortune for 28 friggin’ innings and he jumps for more cash. That’s his right, but it makes him a whore.
I don’t put guys like CC and Tex in that category because they didn’t put their teams through a lot of trauma last year. they performed at a high level and earned FA status. But guys who limp into FA after injury plagued years or drag their team through the mud of a steroid investigation should show some damn loyalty for the support they received.
I imagine Lowe not being re-signed had something to do with his miserable season his last year on the sox. That is a big reason I did not want to go after lOWe this seaosn as i feel like the guy is no longer able to handle AL lineups despite his success in the NL and all the talk about how he reinvented himself in LA. I will wait to see him reinvent himself in the AL before i think he can be successful here. And he is getting mighty old.
PAT M: very painful NFL weekend. I was right on the Steelers, that’s it. They’re the team I root for now, followed by whoever Philly’s opponent is.
86w,
It is no longer if when it comes to pettitte. He has flatout rejected the yanks offer of 10 mil next season which shows a Total lack of appreciation for the yanks wholeheartedly supporting him throughout the hgh ordeal. I find it ironic how the yanks awarded andy with 16 million for his loyalty by coming back to the yanks and pettitte’s complete lack of respect for the yanks support of him last season. I for one, am surprised that the yanks even offered him 10 mil next season as last years second half implies that he may be declining as does his age and no other team seems to be willing to pay him that kind of dough at this point. i DONT understand exactly what andys whole thought process is regarding the rejection. Either he thinks that the yanks will up their offer eventually or he thinks he will get a better offer from another team eventually and sign with them or run back to the yanks with the higher offer in hand. He is going to look pretty foolish if the offer is taken off the table and pettitte never received a 10 mil offer again or if the yanks sign someone else and he is forced to sign with another team at a lower salary.
“I understand that there was some discussion about Derek Lowe, but that the FO was not willing to pay what Lowe and Boras are looking for.”
ray,
I’m a bit surprised that it was really a financial issue. This off season free agents are making a lot less than anticipated – even CC and Tex would have made more in other off seasons. The Sox have the capacity to sign Lowe if they wanted to. I guess they decided it wasn’t a fit given his demands. But he did seems so interested in going back and had no firm offers for a while. I would have offered him a 3 year deal and see if he’d take it to return. Perhaps the boras factor was an issue?
Dave— I’m not sure you can call it a rejection, but it hasn’t been accepted. If you read the stories, there’s no statement from anyone saying he would never accept it, just some sensationalizing from a dying medium… the same medium that told us Teixiera would never be in pinstripes.
You and I are of the same mind when it comes to loyalty. when someone shows it to be a one way street it’s extremely aggravating. I appreciate Andy and what his career has been, but in this matter his behavior has been totally apart from what I would like/expect to see.
I wonder how it will eventually play out
Nick in SF……I still pulled out the weekend thanks to Cal last night…..Randy I, I’ve played a round yesterday and I’m hitting further than I have in years….I still have the occasional hook, as I suspect I’m turning or releasing my hands too quickly….I’ll be shut down for a few weeks as I get my annual knee cleaning….The Watson book is due any day now…..I think Theo and Cashman’s roles were reversed in July of 06, when Cashman brought Bobby Abreu & Cory Lidle to the Bronx and Theo did ????
86w,
I was under the assumption that pettitte has rejected the offer completely but i cant think of any source sayiing so at the moment. Perhaps, someone else in the blog can.
We are on the same page both in shock at andy’s actions this off season and not knowing what will become of this whole situation. I would like to see andy back in stripes and he seems to be a good fit for what they need but he is certainly not worth last years salary to fill this years position.
If anyone is curious as to who most yankee fans are waiting for cash to sign – waswatching.com has an interesting poll. The poll doesnt include any pitcher we could get via trade but the large majority of fans who frequent that site would obviously like to see andy back getting 204 votes. Perhaps not surprisingly, sheets comes in a close second among voters with 155. This is similar to pete’s poll set up earlier this off season which had sheets as a frontrunner for who the fans would like to have signed. All of these attitudes have slowly changed based on the media’s strange reports regarding his actual injury currently but if his price goes low enough, I would have to believe Brian would regain interest in sheets.
Meanwhile, I am looking for a trade of nady for a solid pitching talent. I know a pitcher who is under contract for only one more season would be ideal for the team’s circumstances but i would prefer quality over circumstance right now.
buchholz is a little different then hughes.he gets rattled easier,he didn’t have injuries in 08 like hughes & he will be 25 years old in august.
buchholz lost his confidence last year & rumors were that he was very down on himself.i don’t see that with hughes.
dave:
you asked what else the nationals have.take a look at lannan.he is a lefty who eats innings & had decent numbers in 08.here is a link.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8074
don’t pay attention too wins & losses,look at whip,BAA,hits per innings pitched.
cb-
thanks for that link. very interesting. i always am reading the tea leaves for” black swans” that can wipe out my small business.
if i understand this article correctly, last year when we we’re debating the risk of going with hughes and kennedy in the rotation no one expected them to go 18 starts without a win between them. that would be one of those 1% things that happens rarely( a black swan)
so i was an advocate of lowering the risk of a black swan by getting livan hernandez because there was no way he would go 18 games without a win. so what were really debating is risk management.
thanks again cb for this link. i’ll follow up on it.
… and the best part is nick i sf doesn’t have a clue what i’m talking about. black swan ???? what the …? lol
Even if all The FA signings pan out for the Sox this year (doubtful), how does this help them long term? I have read Theo espousing “thinking long term”, while this year it’s been all short term. The Sox are going to be in the same boat next year, only with a less desirable FA market.
The Yankees FA signings and trade are (we hope) long term, positive additions.
pat m-
hooking your driver or your irons?
“I was wondering if you happened to read Joe Nocera’s piece in the NY Times last week on risk management and the role of computerized trading/statistics in the financial crisis.”
CB,
I was a little sloppy earlier discussing risk, which you rightly pointed out. I was really thinking of performance risk, and then segued (is that how you spell it? people have been getting up in arms about proofreading lately)into thinking about how the same performance risk might affect differently situated teams.
I see you read Nocera’s piece. Did you happen to see this critique of it?
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com.....ue-at.html
But that’s not what I’m here to talk about, as Arlo Guthrie might say.
I think Boston’s big problem this off-season is that they needed a catcher as badly as we needed a first baseman, probably worse, and there was no catcher to be had.
So they went for the best available offensive player (leaving out Manny, who they clearly were not taking back), even though it meant they would have to seriously disrupt their team to accommodate him.
I think this meant that down deep they were conflicted, and as a result they blinked when it came time to see the Yanks’ raise and raise back. I don’t think there was much magic about $170MM or $180MM, it could have happened at $200MM or $210MM, its just that they had more doubts.
Unfortunately, this draft just didn’t have what they need, so the fact that they have all this available cash doesn’t really help. It’s ice in winter.
My reservation to the above is Lowe. Lowe would help them a lot, and they have the money to sign him. The Yanks used to love bringing back ex-Yanks, but it has never been a big Sox thing. I’m quite surprised they’ve shown no interest, though.
Does anyone think theres a chance of a nady, melky for millage deal happening i think its fair so then nats can have Dukes play center and we get a yound center fielder who is young wit loads of talent but hes still rw in center but he can work on that so wat u guys think?
the nady for millage move also allows us to move millage to left next yera and have jackson in center
Is there any reason why to even buy any type of baseball package with justin.tv around? You can watch every nba/college/football or whatever soccer etc.. etc.. game.There is always a feed of it. There will be a definite yankee game feeds there. I was pushed out of the tv area’s tonight, and i wanted to watch the college bb games tonight. Guess how long it took? 10 seconds asking on the unc blog site to find it.
randy, I know exactly what a black swan is. In this context it falls in the category of “types of fowl that Livan consumed when he couldn’t pitch well enough to fill up on innings”. Sadly, that happened all too often last season and he was asked to leave the Twins. But, as has often been pointed out, he was voted a full non-playoff share by his teammates, who might have made the post-season if only Livan had made a few more non-starts.
Randy I, I tend to hook my Driver and 3-wood off the tee….I tend to use my 5 wood from the fairways more than the 3 wood…Irons are dead on with an additional 10 yards easily…I have heeled a 3/4 iron a few times….
Does anyone see the sense in trading a good guy like Nady, for an immature selfish kid like Milledge?? bad move..Not good for the clubhouse
Hey everyone. I just spent eight hours watching football. Sorry about the Giants though.
nick in sf-
no nick. livan is consistently bad so he can be counted on. hughes and kennedy are inconsistently bad which means we don’t have a clue what they will do. that was my best attempt at channeling yogi.
i think livan wins his share of games because he makes hitters put the ball in play and sometimes the ball finds a glove enough times that he actually wins the games. with kennedy and hughes they didn’t give the hitters a chance to make outs.
i would much rather get pitching for nady than milledge. on the other hand, if trading nady frees up salary to buy a pitchers off the FA market then I am down. That is one trade resulting in the filling of two holes. I for one, would ask the reds what it would take to get harang first. If the reds want nady bad enough, i cant imagine a better deal for the yanks than nady and a prospect for harang. To me, even that trade is lopsided in our favor.
“if i understand this article correctly, last year when we we’re debating the risk of going with hughes and kennedy in the rotation no one expected them to go 18 starts without a win between them. that would be one of those 1% things that happens rarely( a black swan)”
randy,
The black swan issue in the article is interesting but somewhat secondary.
I think the larger point about the role data in how people make complex decisions, how they chose to represent the world and how they can chose to ignore the kinds of realities they chose to.
Statistics provide information but they don’t make decisions.
If we are going to sign some junk ball pitcher off the scrap heap, we might as well save the money and just start the kids. What is the point of signing someone who will be consistently worse than those guys? Either lets spend the money to get a quality starter to pitch 200 innings or put aceves in there until hughes is ready. I feel like we could realize use another arm but if the yanks all of a sudden decide to go cheap when filling the last spot we need filled, might as well save their money for holliday next off season or put it into centerfield.
is cash obsessed with cameron or what? I loved a melky and igawa for cameron deal even if we took on cameron’s entire salary because melky and igawa are most likely going to be useless next season but trading swisher for cameron is ridiculous. Swisher is younger and under contract for three years, not one at a better price. Swisher also led the leagues in pitches per plate appearance, has a ton of power and consistently put up one of the better obps in the game. He is also solid with the glove whether it is at first or in rightfield. First, nady should be traded over swisher. Second, neither of those guys is worth cameron straight up. I hope this rumor goes away quickly because it is starting to scare me a little. We went from nady for harang which would be awesome to nady for milledge which would still be a solid trade to swisher for cameron which would be awful.
Dave: You def make sense re: signing a proven player instead of going with the kids due to potential health issues.
I say a deal is made at some point this week to fill the hole in the rotation.
pat m-
if your swing is faster, and it likely is if you’re hitting the ball farther, you may need a stiffer shaft on your driver. go to a good club maker and have them test your new swing speed and make sure your shaft matches it. a too soft shaft will slice one time and hook the next depending on your timing of the club head.
as your swing speed increases, you’ll likely need new shafts on all your clubs. costly , but worth it.
randy, you and your Livanmetrics have left me in the dust yet again. The question now is, which team will snap up this not-so-lean-but-hungry gritty gamer in 2009?
“I see you read Nocera’s piece. Did you happen to see this critique of it?”
Hadn’t seen that particular critique but I’ve seen others. I agree that Nocera misexplained the VaR model but the article was making a larger point than what would depend on the correct description of kurtosis or shewness in financial returns and how the model represents that. Yes it could have been better. Yes it was wrong in detail. But it nonetheless made an interesting and useful larger point.
But I do think that as the world continues to get more complicated and more quantitative it’s important to try to explain to the public the general dynamic of what’s going on.
I think that critique you posted to also misses the larger question of what can and cannot be modeled and what the function of models in contemporary society should be given our progressive automation and the intensification of data all around us (I’d guess Taleb would excoriate that critique of nocera on similar grounds).
I think it made that larger point well even though the technical details may have been incorrect.
Reporters have to be accurate but on a subject that esoteric it’s a very tough haul. I think he did a good job of bringing up a subject and introducing it to a general audience.
If people judged kids after one year, Tom Glavine wouldn’t have had a career.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime–Staying to write the story
January 11th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
If people judged kids after one year, Tom Glavine wouldn’t have had a career.
————————————————————
Neither would Smoltz or Maddux.
I’m guess asking the Marlins about Josh Johnson would be out of the picture huh?
**I**
“I think Boston’s big problem this off-season is that they needed a catcher as badly as we needed a first baseman, probably worse, and there was no catcher to be had.”
I think the issue with the sox goes past one position. I think what they were facing this off season was similar to what the yankees were faced with in 2001.
The model upon which they had built they’re world championship teams was no longer viable. Those teams won with a core built around Manny and Pappi. This off season they had to develop a way of addressing that. That’s what I think they were faced with and they knew that.
Thus the intense desire to sign Tex. It wasn’t a matter of one position. It was the model. They saw him as a big part of that next foundation and that was why they were willing to disrupt the team.
But I think their interest in Tex was more about building that next paradigm.
I agree that Lowe makes a lot of sense for them. I’m happy they seem to have no interest.
Wow!…..Someone actually thinks the Penny and Smoltz signings are better than the Yanks signings….funny.
___________________________________________________
“Erik”-
I like the Sabathia signing. He’s an ace who has proven he can stay healthy.
But given the choice between Burnett for 5/82 or Smoltz for 1/5, I’ll take Smoltz 1/5 any day of the week.
CB: I would have thought they would have planned for the offseason as soon as they lost Manny at the trade deadline…
There is, of course, no way of knowing exactly what they wanted without being an inside man, but it seems that they’ve been very haphazard about the whole thing…
“I think Boston’s big problem this off-season is that they needed a catcher as badly as we needed a first baseman, probably worse, and there was no catcher to be had.”
Maybe teams are doing to the Sox what they have been doing to the Yankees for years-ask for/demand top prospects.
“I would have thought they would have planned for the offseason as soon as they lost Manny at the trade deadline…”
I’m sure they did. I’m sure they had plans for life after manny before the season started. But having a plan and executing it are two different things. Especially when the plan depends on a free agents preference.
And they have been a bit haphazard i suppose but it’s more than understandable. There really are no good plan B’s for them.
Think of it this way – say the yankees had lost CC. They would have been scrambling as well.
CB: Indeed-which is why I think the Yankees went after Burnett at nearly the same time.
I don’t know if they’ve admitted as much or if they’ve admitted something else, but my guess is that they went after Sabathia and Burnett at the same time, once they realized it was possible that they could afford both.
Just got back from the Steeler game here in Pittsburgh. Steelers-Ravens is going to be a brutal game–the colder the better.
I was really expecting Giants-Steelers SB once the Titans lost. Philly was quite surprising. I thought that Couglin gave one of the worst head coaching performances in a playoff game that I have ever seen–brings back thoughts of Buddy Ryan in the Eagles days 15-20 years ago. Losing a timeout challenging a 4 down spot that was right in front of your face? That was just the beginning.
Don’t count out the Cardinals–that NFC championship may be closer than you think, and Wisenhut is no dummy. However, it could be an all PA bowl in Tampa–and the rivalry between Pittsburgh and Philly goes even deeper than the Sox-Yanks, on many more levels than baseball.
Speaking of which…
The Sox signings are not “low-risk, high-reward,” they are “low-risk, low reward.” Smoltz and Penny in the AL East? Saito? Baldelli? I mean, Boston medicine is the best in the country (I trained there), but asking the Harvard MDs to bring all of these guys back to life is a bit ridiculous.
Big gamble for the Sockies, especially with a poor 09 FA class coming up. Do they trade away some youth? For what?
The Yanks signing of Texeria delivered a severe blow to the Sox moving foward, plus Jason Bay leaves after this season ….That being said, he’ll be an anchor at first for years to come….There’s an MVP with his name on it within 3 years….
Is there any word on Manny? Last I heard the Giants couldn’t afford him and the Dodgers were willing to start renegotiating.
Good evening, all – no news on the Pettitte front I take it?
Hmm. Red Sox trying to trade for Prince Fielder? I wonder who’d the have to give up to get that one done. I dont see that happening
PittsburghYankeeFan,
Congrats on the team winning. I’m sad to say (because my team has been eliminated) that they are the only team left worth rooting for. So I wish you good luck and pray they win it all!
Smoltz has had a magnificent career, a Hall of Fame career but he will be 42 in May. He’s going from the NL to the AL at an advanced age and coming off surgery. It’s a move that may pay off but I doubt it. He’s earned way over $ 125 million from the Braves but abandoned them for a few more pieces of silver. My respect for him has taken a huge hit.
“plus Jason Bay leaves after this season ….”
It’ll be interesting to see if they try to sign Bay to an extension rather than trying to pursue Holliday. Bay would likely be more affordable. But if they pass on Holliday before the bidding even starts then I’d wonder if the fallout from dealing with Boras really has them fed up.
Boston signs bay then the market for Holliday gets much smaller quickly.
Katie–thanks. Next Sunday is going to be interesting.
86w183–Smoltz is from RI. Maybe he wants to finish his career close to family. Same thing with Baldelli–with his illness having his family close in RI is likely also a factor.
Still–the Sox look like an episode of “House” right now…
Dr. Cox: I can’t see Milwaukee parting with Prince at all-not unless the Red Sox would consider giving up Lars Anderson, and that’s a move that would turn many heads.
Can we get Jason Bay to sign on with Boras? Just for fun?
All this talk about these recent Frankenstein’s-Monsterish Sox signings has been fun, but there’s a chance that a lot of their question marks could come up positive for them. They’re still going to be a very formidable foe, alas. Or most likely. But as long as CC, AJ, and Joba keep Youk’s skull and poopy-diaper face in mind, this should be a good year for the rivalry.
PittsburghYankeeFan: No problem. Interesting, as in 2 great defenses battling it out. I’m not a big fan of the Ravens, so I am definitely rooting for Pittsburgh.
And about all this Smoltz and Penny talk. Wasn’t Penny hurt last year then came back in the bullpen and then had to be shut down again due to injury?
Smoltz is a future Hall of Famer no doubt, but I do believe he will not be himself and have trouble adjusting to the AL especially the AL EAST
“They’re still going to be a very formidable foe, alas.”
Agreed. These are marginal issues for them. In fact the most important injury issue for the Sox isn’t being discussed much right now.
And that’s Papi’s wrist. A lot of people are talking about Papi possibly being on the decline. I don’t think that can be concluded due to the confounding issue of his wrist.
Wrists can take a while to come back from. If Papi’s numbers last year were due to injury he should have a strong season. That’s the most important injury issue on the sox. Because if his wrist is sound again and he’s still having problems then it could be some decline.
Will Gammons be there for comic relief?
How’s the that, Peter?
” I think he did a good job of bringing up a subject and introducing it to a general audience.”
cb-
with a quick read,i got a few concepts out of it and found it interesting.
let try it out on nick in sf . if he gets it, you’ll know the article was good at making a complex issue simple.
just kidding nick. just kidding.
I have family in the Pittsburg area. They were very insufferable last tim the Steelers won. However, they did buy tickets and board me when the Yankees were there over the summer. Hmmm.
I do expect a shipment of “terrible towel” to come via FedEX this week…
Rangers ask Michael Young to switch to 3B, Young asks to be traded, Rangers shopping Young.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....om-Rangers
Papi could have a Shefield like decline….
Rebecca,
I agree with you. In my opinion, It would also have to be along the lines of Clay Buccholz or even Ellsbury for the brewers to agree with this and I just cant see Boston givng them up.
They DO need another big bat, however.
Tom: It’s worse if you’re from Cleveland.
Trust me on this.
Then again, Beckett is always one blister away from deep mediocrity, Dice-K’s Houdini act might end up like the original, Lester might not the *best left-hander in the game* after all, etc. A full season without Manny will be veru interesting.
“Rangers ask Michael Young to switch to 3B, Young asks to be traded, Rangers shopping Young.”
Young is a terrible defensive player who shouldn’t be at SS to begin with. That he won a gold glove is a joke.
I’d guess this conflict between young and their FO is heavily influenced by statistics. By fielding metrics young is simply horrendous at SS. I’d guess Jon Daniels has looked at those numbers.
Elvus Andrus the young shortstop they have who they want to replace young with was one of the best players in the very tough midwestern league this past season at the age of 20. Opened eyes everywhere. Before this season he was a guy who was considered to have great tools but not great baseball skils and he just took off.
The rangers have the best minor league system in baseball right now and Andrus is one of their top 3-4 players.
How did the Rangers get Andrus? He was the last player included in the Eric Gagne trade to Boston in 2007.
As bad as that trade was for Boston at the time it could get much worse.
Fortunately Theo is a genius and he has that going for him.
CB-
Andrus was traded from Atlanta as part of the Salty deal.
Tex was the major piece in that trade at the time.
It seems that there has been a big Sea Change in baseball towards run prevention.
CHARITY??? I know I am being cynical but REALLY people! Don’t forget that much of this “giving” lowers their tax obligations! When I hear about their giving their TIME as well (which many DO), then that’s really giving.
dontradethefarm,
yes, i see your point. but alot of these players, ESPECIALLY players like Damon and Sabbathia truly care. So back the f off.
Buddy,
Thanks for the correction. I got my terrible trades mixed up. You’re completely right – Andrus was part of the mind boggling fleece that was the Mark Teixeira trade.
The Rangers got Engel Beltre as the last player for Gagne. He was who I was thinking of.
Beltre was phenomenal this year. He’s one of Texas’s 7-8 best prospects and probably has a higher ceiling than Andrus does.
Texas is just absolutely stocked – amazing young talent, particularly up the middle.
I’ll say it, Robert Zimmerman is the greatest American writer. Ever.
I think the sox position may be comparable to ours in 2001 but their off season is more comparable to our in 2007 to 2008. We had a number of holes to fill in our rotation and we chose to go the cheap route and plus the holes with unproven kids who werent ready to pitch in the majors as can be seen from the results. It really wasnt THAT surprising that we were pretty terrible last year outside of Moose’s surprise performance because look at the rotation we went into the season with and look who started opening day.
While the sox are not relying on youth as much as extremely risky players, the situation is comparable in that they are plugging their rotation with cheap options rather than making a few moves to solidify their post season hopes. Unless the sox get very lucky next season, there is a good chance they finish in third place like we did last year.
i realize their offense is still formidable with Ortiz, Pedroia, Youkillis, Bay and the like but their pitching is relying far too heavily on the top three starters. One big injury to any of them and the sox will struggle to win the wild card in the AL east. Our team, on the other hand, is also currently relying very heavily on the top three guys but two of them are proven aces.
One more yankee starting pitcher signing and there staff is solidified. We cheap out on this move and it could be extremely detrimental possibly undermining the entire season that the yanks have spent so much money to win. I am watching and waiting for another move and it really should be coming any day now. If it doesnt, it leaves a very unnecessary hole!
“It seems that there has been a big Sea Change in baseball towards run prevention.”
I think that’s one of the big stories of this off season and it’s going to be a sea change in the way baseball is structured.
The advent of defensive measurement is rapidly changing the game. And that’s only going to grow.
It’s interesting to see how the yankees seem to have gotten quite a few inquiries on Nady and Swisher while Dunn and Abreu are still on the market. The only plus of Nady on those two is defense.
Could this trade happen?
Yes, and the Nationals would **probably trade Austin Kearns or Nick Johnson, who would be backups in New York. They would also have to give up two or three, maybe four minor leaguers as well.**
Who?
I have no clue.
My guess is that it would have to be **one player from the Jordan Zimmermann class, one from the Leonard Davis class, and one from the Justin Maxwell class.**
Maybe even more than that.
http://bleacherreport.com/arti.....her/page/3
—————–
Jordan Zimmermann for Nady and Swisher? Whoa, the Nationals must be really desperate.
CB-
Jon Daniels makes some great deals & bad ones. The McCarthy- Danks trade was awful. Will they ever have any good pitching?
This is pettitte on sept 10 via riveraveblues:
“Obviously anyone else would say, ‘I’ll go wherever I want to,’ because people want to try to get the most money,” Pettitte said to Tyler Kepner. “But, I mean, I’m not going anywhere, you know what I’m saying? The Yankees know me enough, it’s not like I’m going to hold out. I guess if I had spent all my money or whatever, it might be different. But it’s not about that, really, anymore.” Those words and his actions this winter speak for themselves
This is how i lost some respect for pettitte. Need i SAY anything more?
Not to give the It is High guys too much of a free plug, this is appropriate to the earlier discussion about Mrs. Tex and Boston:
http://johnsterling.spreadshir.....le/4035192
This one is pretty funny too, though most would find it somewhat escoteric:
http://johnsterling.spreadshir.....gs-4044985
“Will they ever have any good pitching?”
I think they will get better. They have several very good pitching prospects in the minors and Neftali Feliz and Dereck Holland are really tremendous prospects, Feliz in particular. Then they still have others like Michael Main who are very good.
I don’t like Nolan Ryan’s development program of throwing more but I think barring injury their pitching will get much better and Feliz really has the chance to be special.
The Danks trade was bad but it’s tough. The white sox have done a very good job improving young pitchers that they acquire via trades. Not certain he’d do as well were he still with the rangers.
Which is part of their problem – traditionally terrible at developing arms.
You know, while I was watching the football games today I was watching with someone that was a Cubs fan but lives in Washington.
He thinks the Nationals are horrible, not just because they are horrible, but because they don’t have “a real fanbase” (well, he put it in somewhat less polite terms and that basically their fans are Orioles fans that got fed up with Angelos.
Only in baseball could a player who is pretty bad at his position be asked to move positions and then, the player ask to be traded. I imagine that would be the equivalent in the corporate world of your boss asking you to change departments and you asking them to get you the same or better salary at a different company. nO ONE thinks more highly of baseball players than themselves.
Tyler kepner of the NY times wrote an article on jAN 6 about pettitte rejecting the yanks 1 year and 10 million dollar offer for any one who thinks that pettitte has no yet rejected the yanks offer which seems to be a common sentiment around here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01.....ref=sports
How in gods name did it go from this in september:
Obviously anyone else would say, ‘I’ll go wherever I want to,’ because people want to try to get the most money,” Pettitte said to Tyler Kepner. “But, I mean, I’m not going anywhere, you know what I’m saying? The Yankees know me enough, it’s not like I’m going to hold out. I guess if I had spent all my money or whatever, it might be different. But it’s not about that, really, anymore.”
to this a week ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01.....ref=sports
Andy Pettitte Rejects Yankees’ Offer, Making Return Uncertain
This from mlbtraderumors:
“Ben Sheets is becoming a bargain, so the Braves or Rangers could jump in and sign him affordably.”
Why cant the yanks jump in and sign him? Oh yea, because no other team is interested so his med records must be bad. There is some more proof that sheets value is plummeted so far down that his risk is becoming a bargain.
dave-
Are you just torturing us with the Sheets rambles?
Buddy: I think Dave’s interested in torturing us, period
The brewers GM Doug Melvin has also been quoted as saying he doesn’t anticipate signing another starter but if ben sheets wants to come back, he would have to consider re-signing him.
That doesnt sound to me like a pitcher with a ton of risk attached to him. Do you think the brewers forgot to read his medical reports or speak to his doctors? Considering the brewers most likely wrote most of those reports and those doctors work for the brewers, i FIND that highly unlikely. And the other argument I find hillarious for why we should sign sheets is that the brewers would be more willing to sign sheets than the yanks because the brewers arent going to the playoffs so they could afford the risk while the yanks are built for a championship so they cant.
oNE, i DONT think the brewers are conceding before the season even starts that they arent making the playoffs. Two, why waste money on ben sheets if they already think they are going to lose? Three, sheets would actually be more of a risk for the brewers because he would be relied upon to be their ace while the yanks would stick him in the back of their rotation as a fourth starter.
Which is more risky – having sheets as an ace or having sheets as a fourth starter? I am going to go with the brewers situation. I know i dont have to convince any one in here as nick pointed out so CASHMAN IF YOU CAN HEAR ME, PLEASE, PLEASE THROW YOUR HAT BACK INTO THE SHEETS NEGOTIATIONS!!!! i bet no matter what, sheets will be off the market very soon.
If cashman trades swisher for cameron – he will totally negate the subtle brilliance i finally saw in him when he made the swisher move in the first place. I thought that was one of the first times in cash’s career that he identified a player that was coming off a very bad year with a ton of potential and a team that couldnt wait to get rid of him and traded swisher for almost nothing. Swish is the type of player that can be one of the best hitters on a mediocre team batting fourth in a lineup and we essentially got him for betemit. Turning swish around to get cameron would be bad on so many levels it is unimaginable that the yanks actually called up the brewers to make that trade. It makes me sick just reading about it.
dave-
Sheets would want more than $10M per year, right? He would also prefer a contract more than 1 year, right?
Forget his medical records for a moment.
Pettitte fits what the Yanks are looking for, if Andy passes for sure, then they will get a cheaper, short term option.
Sheets ain’t coming here, let it go.
Buddy and Rebecca,
Yes on both counts!
Buddy: I think dave _is_ Sheets.
Rebecca-
Very funny!
can baseball just start already,, i am soo bored and with the giants out there is nothing to watch besides lost
Rebecca-
I see you & “It is High” are cool now!
Buddy,
I wouldnt want sheets for more than one year with a second year option and i wouldnt want him for more than 8 mil guaranteed. But if we can give him incentives all the way up to 15 mil and a vesting option for the second year based on performance – that may be the best offer he gets. Problem is, I have yet to hear an asking price from sheets or his agent since mid december. I think it has went waaay down since then. If not, your right. I dont think the yanks should sign him.
But i can go the exact other way with many people in this blog. Pettitte has said no to the 10 mil offer. No one has offered him more in the entire MLB or even close that we know of. The yanks refuse to go higher and rightly so. Pettitte has said so much as he wants to be payed what he was last year so who even knows how high the yanks would have to go to get him. Some people are pretending like these negotiations are close or pettitte is going to come to NY no matter what happens. That simply is NOT the case! Why cant people understand that? Pettitte is so prideful I dont think at this point that it is likely pettitte is coming to NY for 10 mil or less as the yanks have reportedly lowers their offer. Further, the yanks dont even seem to feel like he is worth 10 mil so they think they are doing him a favor.
Why do i keep talking about sheets and a harang trade and sometimes, the other guys left on the market. Because we need a starter and if pettitte isnt coming which appears to be the case, there is a limited number of choices. Pettitte’s negotiations have collapsed. If Sheets goes off the market, we are left with a trade for nady which seems like it wouldnt net us too much in return or an assortment of garland, perez, Lowe and Looper. I dont want any of those guys all that much so that is why i talk about sheets so much. So many people so no i dont want him and no i dont want him and fail to realize that without pettitte, there is only so many decent pitchers left out there. Why cant people start thinking that perhaps we dont get pettitte and start naming who we should get? They would rather tell me why my choices are wrong and pretend pettitte has already returned then face reality i guess.
Buddy: Quite.
I can get hot headed and hypersensitive pretty easily if I don’t realize straight off that something’s intended as satire. I know it’s a major character flaw on my part, but I am better than I used to be…
(scary thought, I know. Scarier thought: I’m still a self-centered narcissist)
We should sign Yadel Marti to join the rotation. He’s Cuba’s top pitcher and he could step right into our #5 rotation spot.
I hope the yanks are better at dealing with reality than some people in this blog seem to be. If cash is still sitting waiting to get a call for andy telling him he apologizes and wants to sign for 8 mil, i think he will be in for a rude awakening. As many in this blog may be. i WISH people would start talking about who is a decent option to pitch in the fourth spot rather than just explaining why each of the options mentioned wouldn’t work out for the team.
With all the dough the Yanks have thown around for pitching since that September interview, it only makes business sense to try to extract a few more million from the Yanks….He’ll re-sign once both sides can make the deal look good for both parties……Sheets is a long shot, a very long and desperate shot…..
Giantthinker,
I think me and you are the only ones that accepted the sad truth that pettitte may not be coming back and are actually naming people that can serve in the fourth spot and why.
dave: Most of us realize Pettitte might not be coming back.
We also think that options with less risk than Sheets may present themselves.
pAT,
There arent even any negotiations going on right now. And there is almost no way, both sides can come out of this looking good. If sheets is a long shot, then name a pitcher who isnt a long shot outside of pettitte who also is probably a long shot at this point. I dont think this whole thing is negotiation tactics – pettitte has almost no leverage unless he gets an offer at least matching the yanks 10 million and even then, since he wants to play in NY more than any where else, the yanks are not forced to raise the salary.
Has yadel marti ever pitched in the major or minor leagues. I cant find any stats for him.
dave,
for the love of the blog, please **start** your own blog and rant all you want. your posts is killing my phone and my fingers while trying to scroll all the way down to the comment box.
rebecca,
I dont hear any ever being mentioned. I discussed harang as a possible option for nady, aceves and a bullpen arm like veras and that got completely shot down by the blog as well. I also talked about not really minding garland as a last resort and people didnt seem to like that one either. I dont think there are hardly any good options on the free agent market. I also dont think the nationals who seem to be the most interested in nady have much pitching that could help us. Outside of harang, the reds who are also interested in nady dont have much to offer either. i DONT see where this option is coming from and i HAVE a feeling we are going to end up with either no one or a very mediocre player in the fourth spot if we dont act relatively quickly. There are only so many days left until pitchers and catchers report. Time is ticking.
Sorry but i was just watching Seinfeld last week:
Jerry/Elaine/George: (somethign like) we’re all volunteering to help old people!
Kramer: WAAAH! Don’t you know, old people charity=front for money laundering?!
Jerry: Where’d you hear that?
Kramer: The alternative media!!
Sorry ed but there has been comment sections much, much longer than the current one. I am sure you will manage.
dave-
Ed is right & he’s not even drunk, yet!
Starting your own blog is a great idea, I can’t imagine typing as much as you do, then again, I type with 2 fingers.
I also don’t think negotiations with Pettitte are done.
dave: I think Ed might have a point…
Anyway, Harang is going to take _a lot_ more than Nady to get-he’s a legitimate ace, provided he’s healthy.
Pettitte really would be the best options if he could man up and admit that he’s being whatchamacallit. Failing that, I like Lowe, Perez or Looper.
/AND, by the way, we all knew that to complete the fairy tale, the Giants had to lose today. So, although I currently find myself in a state in which gambling is illegal (and even Samoan bingo doesn’t have football (although i’m sure there’s somethign i’m missing)) , anyone with any brains bet against the G’s today.
and again, where the h is mel? she has been gone so long one cannot help but worry.
dave- I would assume since Marti defected he has never played ball in the states.
Also on the Nady/Swisher trade I would demand Zimmerman and a top prospect, preferably a pitcher.
mel checked in last week, she may be on hiatus for a bit.
dave: It’s not that you comment a lot, it’s that every comment you make is an entire essay!
Seriously, man, what do you do all day?
buddy,
They may not be done but they are hanging by a thread most likely. Also, it doesnt hurt to start thinking of alternatives. Cash cant sit around waiting for pettitte to call and we cant continue to talk about pettitte in every comment section and whether we agree with him or the team. i KNOW we cant continue to talk about sheets either but it is more fun debating a player than just agreeing with each other as we ALL want pettitte back. And i think it is much more enjoyable to start debating other possible options then just to talk about pettitte except it is very rare thats someone brings up a name. I type fast because i use bith hands and all ten fingers and i have been using computers for the large majority of my life. I would start a blog if i actually knew how to do that. I dont really have a clue how though.
rebecca,
Surprisingly, Im in Medical School. i type pretty fast and i am not on here all that much but when i am, I write a ton to get all my thoughts out.
ahhh finally back on a computer….
Rebecca and Buddy, thanks.
oh Buddy, I’m have myself on a “alcohol restricted” list. lol…
dave,
I’m in grad school too. I can guarantee you I do more writing than you, for school and private. I was the fastest typer in my typing class in high school.
I still don’t make my comments novels, though…
(well, most of the time, anyway).
Al,
isnt zimmerman a top prospect for them? And none of those options are pitchers that could help us now right or is zimmerman ready for the MLB?
Rebecca,
How much more than nady, aceves and a pen arm do you think it would take to get harang? Or what besides nady do you think it will take to get harang? The reds seem to like nady a heck of a lot
“There are only so many days left until pitchers and catchers report. Time is ticking.”
Is this a race to get blog consensus before Cashman goes ahead and does something without our collective input? I can’t think under that kind of pressure!
And it’s true, Rebecca doesn’t maker her comments novels but she might make her novels comments.
Rebecca,
I dont really do that much writing in med school. It is mainly just studying – i was just saying i dont really have a lot of time to spend on here because of all the studying, not that i write a lot on my free time.
I dunno why i write so much – i just come here to get all my thoughts out and im not in here all that much usually so when i am i write ALOT sometimes depending on how much i have to say. But sometimes i dont write that much. I have always written more than i was supposed to on assignments in school too.
dave,
yadel marti pitched in Cuba.
Nick,
Cash needs input from all of us before he can decide. So you better get crackin’. I dunno why i think i have to convince people of something so that cash makes the proper decision. That type of thinking has never worked before so perhaps, it is not all that effective. Maybe i should write cash a letter. Anyone have his address? I will make sure to make it 30 pages including input from everyone in this blog of course.
rebecca,
Do you have your own blog? I remember reading a blog by someone named rebecca who was a grad student.
Dave: You’re looking at Melancon and Nady, for starters. It’d probably take more than that as well, but I don’t know what cinncinati needs.
It’s Andy Pettite or Hughes…..I really doubt that they’ll bring in someone from the outside….They only need a starter for one year…..I thought a Brad Penny would have sufficed in that regard, but his innings ( possible lack of ) wouldn’t work…..I still say Pettite will be back….
ya, i saw marti is cuban. What team is he currently on?
Marti is currently signed to – hey, there’s a new thread!
“Do you have your own blog? I remember reading a blog by someone named rebecca who was a grad student.”
and that’s her.
dave-
Are u kidding about Rebecca having a blog?
Rebecca,
They need a right handed power hitting corner outfielder and very cheap starters who can log innings if they trade harang. Nady fits the bill for the first need. I thought we could trade away guys like aceves or maybe even guys like steven jackson and chase wright because they could help cincy and they will probably never make the majors on the yanks for the most part unless its out of the pen (and we have a ton of guys capable of pitching relief right now). We would obviously NEVER give up melancon unless it was for hanley ramirez like talent as he is the only potential future closer in waiting within the organization. i was thinking nady, aceves and jackson along with a bullpen arm like veras should be able to land us harang and that may be too much. Look at his year last year. hIS VALUE is lower than it was last year.
Buddy,
No. i never realized it until this week.
It was good stuff though. i ENJOYED reading it and will go back to your blog again!
dave: I only promote it like every chance I get
But thank you very much–I’m glad you enjoyed it!
new thread it up
Really? I guess i read your promotion but I never went over there until recently so it didn’t click. Im glad i did though and Keep up the good work!
“There is some more proof that sheets value is plummeted so far down that his risk is becoming a bargain.”
Sheets is also a type A so he’ll cost a draft pick. If his medicals are bad, and he’s on a 1yr deal, teams stand to lose their first rd pick, $10M, and get nothing in return. It all comes down to those medicals… and the only reports I’ve heard say they’re not good.