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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


It’s Rickey and Rice for Cooperstown

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 12, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

As expected, Rickey Henderson was elected to the Hall of Fame today, receiving 511 of a possible 539 votes. Nice to know I share a profession with 28 dolts.

All Henderson did was play 25 years, collect 3,055 hits, score 2,295 runs and steal 1,406 bases. He had a career OBP of .401, played in 14 postseasons and helped win two World Series. He was a Yankee from 1985-89 but will surely be inducted as a member of the Oakland Athletics.

Meanwhile, Red Sox slugger Jim Ed Rice joined Henderson in the class of 2009. Nobody else was elected. Rice received 412 votes, or 76.4 percent. Players needed 75 percent.

Here is the release from the BBWAA with the vote totals.

UPDATE, 2:04 p.m.: Here is the voting:

Rickey Henderson 511 (94.8%); Jim Rice 412 (76.4%); Andre Dawson 361 (67.0%); Bert Blyleven 338 (62.7%); Lee Smith 240 (44.5%); Jack Morris 237 (44.0%); Tommy John 171 (31.7%); Tim Raines 122 (22.6%); Mark McGwire 118 (21.9%); Alan Trammell 94 (17.4%); Dave Parker 81 (15.0%); Don Mattingly 64 (11.9%); Dale Murphy 62 (11.5%); Harold Baines 32 (5.9%); Mark Grace 22 (4.1%); David Cone 21 (3.9%); Matt Williams 7 (1.3%); Mo Vaughn 6 (1.1%); Jay Bell 2 (0.4%); Jesse Orosco 1 (0.2%); Ron Gant 0; Dan Plesac 0; Greg Vaughn 0.

UPDATE, 2:07 p.m.: Players remain on the ballot for up to 15 years provided they receive at least five percent of the vote. Players who will return to the ballot next year are Dawson, Blyleven, Smith, Morris, Raines, McGwire, Trammell, Parker, Mattingly, Murphy and Baines.

UPDATE, 2:09 p.m.: I would think that Tim Raines receiving only 22.6 percent (down from last season’s 24.3 percent) would not go over well with those who are statistically inclined. Raines could well be the second-best leadoff hitter ever.

Bert Blyleven’s candidacy has become a hot topic in the internets. He has gone from 53.3 percent in 2006 to 62.7 percent this season. But that’s still a long way from 75 percent.

Mark McGwire dropped a few points this season. Mattingly, meanwhile, remains in the teens.

UPDATE, 2:22 p.m.: For what it’s worth, I once asked Ron Guidry whether he thought Rice should be in the Hall of Fame and he looked at me like I was crazy. “Of course he should be,” Guidry said. “Guy scared the crap out of every pitcher in the league.”

So there’s that. But you can make a good case for or against Rice.

 
 

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295 Responses to “It’s Rickey and Rice for Cooperstown”

  1. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    this is Rickey calling on behalf of Rickey…Rickey wants to play baseball.

  2. Jake S January 12th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Bert Blyleven screwed again. Argh.

  3. church201 January 12th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    props to the both of them

  4. Bob January 12th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    Great Job By Jim Ed Rice, Congrats well deserved

  5. Rocco January 12th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    Yikes…

    Mark McGwire 118 (21.9%)

  6. gayle January 12th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    What percentage do you need to remain on the ballot for the following year?

  7. CraftyLefty January 12th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    Only 22.6% for Raines? The guy was the best player in the NL for years in the mid-80s.

  8. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    …ok, why on god’s good green earth is the streaming video on the MLB HOF website now broadcasting the 2008 alcs??
    anyone else getting this??

  9. Bob January 12th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    5 %

  10. migames January 12th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    the fact that jesse orosco got one vote lets me know that this whole hof business is a joke

  11. ditmars1929 January 12th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    OK for Henderson, but I can’t believe Blyleven wasn’t enshrined years ago. Then again, I think Kaat should be there too. I must be an idiot.

  12. Sean D. January 12th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    How could you possibly defend a vote for Jay Bell into the HOF?

  13. Dr. Cox January 12th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Donnie Baseball only 64 votes. I guess im biased, though.

  14. Bob(The Original) January 12th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Great Job By Jim Ed Rice, Congrats well deserved
    ————————————————–

    Please. Probably in the top 5 of undeserving HOF members.

    I guess Roy White will get in now too?

  15. Sam January 12th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    one vote for Jay bell was Pedro Gomez of ESPN. that guy is a clown.

  16. Josh in DC January 12th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Rickey has provided some of the funniest quotes and anecdotes in baseball history, and was a hell of a baseball player. Rice, too, for the latter part. Good class this year.

  17. vin January 12th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Maybe the two writers who voted for Jay Bell thought they were voting for the Hall of Above Average.

  18. Bob January 12th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Don’t get the hate for Rice, ask any Yankee player during that ERA no one wanted to face Rice, he has been deserving for a long time if we take off our pinstriped glasses

  19. rbj January 12th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    How do 28 writers justify not voting for Rickey? Ok, Corky is old and forgetful, but what about the other 27.

  20. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    ok, well this is frustrating, I *was* watching the HOF coverage streaming from its official website, now not so much. Is there anywhere else on the internet to see it or are those of us who are at work just S.O.L?

  21. Rishi January 12th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    BBB – i was getting the same feed…

  22. Phil January 12th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    You also share a profession with every dolt who voted for Rice.

  23. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    It’s not hate for Rice to say Blyleven was better at baseball. He was.

  24. SteveB January 12th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    A wrong was righted with the election of Jim Rice. I am a hardcore Yankee fan, but having ‘been there’ in the 1970′s & 1980′s I believe there is no way Rice should be excluded from the Hall. I look forward to his induction speech.

    I am not in favor of anyone else on that list making the Hall, so I think for once, the voters got it right.

    Before there was ‘Manny being Manny’, there was ‘Rickey being Rickey’. He did it his way.

  25. rodg12 January 12th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    gayle -
    They need 5% of the vote to stay on the ballot. As Pete said in an update in case you didn’t see it ;)

  26. Bob January 12th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Blyleven compiled great stats over his career but was never the feared number 1 starter oh NO we are facing Ryan, Koufax, Pedro,Maddux etc today we are going to lose.

  27. Betsy January 12th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Congrats to Rickey and Rice, though I despise Rickey so I am not exactly enthusastic about it. It’s obviously well-deserved, however.

    I love the Yankees patch – the Mets? What is that supposed to be? It took creative minds to come up with that?

  28. Phil January 12th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    Wow. Blyleven gets penalized for having bad teammates. Rice gets elevated by people who don’t understand home/road splits.

  29. Paulie January 12th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    I once rode an elevator with Ricky in San Diego and his cell phone rang and he answered: “This be Ricky.” Classic!!!

    It was just too bad those mid-80 Yankee teams never had the pitching to get him and the rest of the hitting maching into the postseason.

    Great ballplayer, but I do recall once he became unhappy as a Yankee, he started to pull some shanigans out in LF to let the organization know he didn’t want to be there anymore. I believe his trade resulted in the first tour of duty of Luis Polonia as a Yankee.

  30. ham fighters January 12th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    check out rollins doing the rickey walk, thats great!!!!!!!!

  31. rodg12 January 12th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    You putting Albert Belle in the Hall then Bob and SteveB? Just curious?

  32. CB January 12th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    The Hall of Fame voting is an embarrassment. It really is.

    Rickey left off the ballot by 28 people?

    Jim Rice. Truly amazing. Probably one of the 10 least deserving members of the hall. Just an awful selection.

    It’s astonishing that baseball writers can’t seem to understand that if you play your entire career in an extreme hitters park it will influence how good your numbers are and inflate them past your true ability.

    Just amazing. It’s bizarre that Rice only got 29% of the vote his first time out – a time when more voting members had seen him play and remembered his game and that now he gets in despite having statistics that are not even remotely close enough to get in. He just wasn’t that good or that productive a player – even at his peak.

    Rice’s hall of fame selection once again shows the undo influence that Boston baseball writers/ media have over other reporters across the country.

    Jim Rice literally got elected to the hall of fame because Peter Gammons and Dan Shaugnessy said he was “feared.”

    That was Rice’s credential. Gammons and Shaugnessy’s incessant PR campaign of “fear.”

    What a joke. How is it even remotely possible that Dick Allen isn’t in the hall of fame and Jim Rice is? Raines was not just a little better than Rice – he was much, much, much better. He gets less than 25% of the vote.

    It’s just an embarrassment. Embarrassing and it will only look more embarrassing for the game as time passes.

    Rice gets in and worthy guys like Bleyleven, Raines and Trammell are ignored because they don’t have the Boston town criers telling other journalists who they should “fear” and how to vote. An utter joke.

  33. aron-baka January 12th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....s_per.html

  34. Bob(The Original) January 12th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    Don’t get the hate for Rice, ask any Yankee player during that ERA no one wanted to face Rice, he has been deserving for a long time if we take off our pinstriped glasses

    ——————————————

    Ooooooh, the most feared batter argument.

    Don’t mind the stats.

    Career stats away from Fenway: .277 .330 .459

    What a joke.

  35. saucY January 12th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    :(

  36. David January 12th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    FWIW my guess as to why 28 dolts didn’t vote for Rickey is that his lifetime batting average was only .279. Experienced baseball writers ought to understand that OBA is more important than BA, especially for a leadoff hitter, but it looks like 28 of them don’t get it.

  37. Al from BK January 12th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    When is Spring Training? I could care less about the HOF unless a Yankee is being inducted(I guess you could say Rickey but not really). 32 days til P&C :)

  38. S.o.S. January 12th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Young wants to be traded from the Rangers. Lets trade Cano for Kemp and send Texas a few pitching studs for Young. Have Young play at short while Jeter goes to second. If Jeter declines to move have Young play second.

  39. ham fighters January 12th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    i know it happens every time a true no-doubter comes up but its just inexcusable that 28 or however many left rickey off thier ballot. do they have some kind of memory dysfunction or maybe they were writing for the style section back in the 80′s.

  40. raymagnetic January 12th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    If Rice made it in then I guess I’ll start the Bernie Williams forthe HOF campaign right now.

    I don’t think either guy is deserving but if Rice got in then Bernie should get in as well.

  41. Phil January 12th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Bernie was a better player than Jim Rice. So was Roy White.

  42. Taylor January 12th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    So 76% of writers are complete idiots and don’t understand how overrated Rice was and still is. Not surprising.

  43. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    man, I can’t believe theres nowhere on the internet broadcasting this. that sucks, I really wanted to hear Henderson’s speech, him being such a character and all.

  44. Wiseman January 12th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    Jim Rice was great for a 10 year span. Albert Belle was better for 10 years and he isn’t on ballot any more becuase people hated him more then they hated Rice.

  45. Vito January 12th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    next year – Barry Larkin and Roberto Alomar. The well goes dry then for a few years.

  46. will fl January 12th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    is there a yes network justin.tv channel?

  47. Mr. Exceptional January 12th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    Is anybody talking about the Sox swooping in on Michael Young.

    I could see a blockbuster trade between the Sox and Rangers that nets the Sox Young and Salty. While the Rangers would get a handful of young prospects.

    That would be dangerous.

  48. migames January 12th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    tim raines will be by far the best player never to make it to the HOF

  49. CB January 12th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    Bernie Williams was a much better baseball player than Jim Rice. Not slightly better – much better.

    But Bernie doesn’t have Gammons in his corner going on an on about how he deserves to get in.

    Instead yankee guys have had Dick Young, Madden and Lupica bashing them every chance they get for years.

    Jim Rice. It boggles the mind. He literally got elected through a PR campaign by a couple of boston reporters.

    Another stain on the hall of fame.

  50. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    great call on the justin.tv channel will fl, it worked!!

  51. abcd January 12th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    what makes one a HOF’er this year but not last year? it’s laughable.

  52. will fl January 12th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    I can’t find a yankees network on there. i know they have the MLB network channel streamed. did you find a yes network feed?

  53. CB January 12th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    “Is anybody talking about the Sox swooping in on Michael Young.”

    Young has one of the worst contracts in baseball. He’s worth much less than his contract is. He’s a terrible fielder and mediocre bat who is on the down slide.

    The Rangers gave young his $80M extension back in 2006 even though he wasn’t due to be a free agent until after the 2008 off season.

    Think about that – Young should have been a free agent right now. Somehow I’m thinking he’s not really going to come even close to getting an 80M deal until he’s 36 if he’s on the market now.

    The sox have already said they aren’t interested in him.

  54. abcd January 12th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    HOF’ers should be voted in by a committee of the individual’s peers comprised of players, managers, gm’s and execs that were active during the individual’s career.

  55. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    will: nah, just the MLB Network channel.

  56. rodg12 January 12th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    I’m with you on all counts CB. Can’t believe Rice got elected. Just can’t believe it.

  57. will fl January 12th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    I bet you by spring training something will pop up.Im not buying any packages ’till i see how it shapes up

  58. Al from BK January 12th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Michael Young is 32 and on the decline no reason to worry about the Sux getting him. I’ll take Tex over him any day.

  59. Tarheelyank January 12th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Rickey deserves it.

    As afar as the 28 dolts, dont we go through this every year? Most recently with Ripken and Gwynn. It’ no surprise.

  60. CB January 12th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    I was expecting Rice to get elected – the Gammons/ Shaugnessy PR campaign has been gaining steam for years.

    The vote for him was actually closer than I thought it would be.

    But the lack of logic and thinking behind his vote is just ridiculous.

    Simply one of the worst selections to the Hall of Fame of all time.

    If Rice is in then let in just about everyone who was good but not even close to great.

  61. rconn23 January 12th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Sorry, but Jim Rice has simply no business being in the Hall of Fame unless he buys a ticket. If he played for the Pirates instead of the Red Sox, he wouldn’t even be up for serious discussion.

    Saying he was the most “feared” hitter is simply unacceptable as an argument when it doesn’t measure up in statistics. That opinion is being spouted be people who say their Hall of Fame litmus test is “well, I know one when I see one.” (i.e. Bob Ryan)
    Also, absurd.

    Fortunately, informed analytical writers like Keith Law and Rob Neyer are getting Hall of Fame votes now. Hopefully that trend will continue and we’ll start slowly seeing the Hall of Fame voting process become less of a joke.

  62. Mike R January 12th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    “Bernie was a better player than Jim Rice.”

    Amen.

  63. SJ44 January 12th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    No, I don’t see the Red Sox “swooping in” on Michael Young.

    He’s not a good defensive SS and I don’t think the Red Sox want to inherit that contract.

    Plus, they are too busy pumping up guys from their past who for HOF consideration that don’t deserve to be inducted in there.

    Dick Allen and Albert Belle were more feared, and better hitters, than Jim Rice and I don’t see them in the Hall.

    The HOF is supposed to be for GREAT players. Not very good players.

    Jim Rice was a very good player. For a short (“short” in terms of HOF-type players) he was a dominant hitter. He certainly wasn’t dominant enough long enough (IMO) to merit HOF consideration.

    This is just another example of MLB turning into Red Sox Nation.

    I was never of the belief Bernie Williams or Don Mattingly should be in the HOF. Both guys, while having great careers, where either not dominant enough (in Bernie’s case) or not healthy enough (in Donnie’s case) to merit consideration.

    Tell you what. After this, BOTH guys deserve to be in the HOF. Both guys were better players and BOTH guys were “feared” by opponents (if that’s the new criteria for getting in) by the opposition.

    This is what happens when politics and fanboys take over HOF voting. You get guys that don’t deserve to be there for BS reasons.

    That said, if the Hall is now open for the “very good” as long as they were “feared”, then Bernie, Donnie Baseball, Tim Raines, Dick Allen, and Albert Belle all deserve to get in under this new criteria.

  64. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    if Rice is in then Mattingly should CERTAINLY be in. Hell, why not just let John Olerud in too?

  65. rodg12 January 12th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    rconn23 -
    Unfortunately, Law and Neyer can’t vote on the Hall for 10 years. At which point, there’s a pretty good chance Raines is off the ballot and won’t be able to be elected. At least it’s a move in the right direction though (albeit a year late).

  66. Bob January 12th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    # Phil January 12th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Bernie was a better player than Jim Rice. So was Roy White.

    LOL :)

  67. Bob January 12th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Did any of the Rice detractors ever see the guy play?! Read the quote from Ron Guidry, please, and then ask any Yankee fan who saw him coming up when the game was on the line. He was the most feared hitter of his generation and that should be enough to get you into the hall of fame. Ted Williams wasn’t much of a fielder, either. Of much more importance, however, is the continued ignoring of Bert Blyleven, but one has to believe that he will eventually be elected.

  68. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Young wants to be traded from the Rangers. Lets trade Cano for Kemp and send Texas a few pitching studs for Young. Have Young play at short while Jeter goes to second. If Jeter declines to move have Young play second

    ———-

    A couple issues here. Jeter isnt moving to 2nd base, and the entire reason the Rangers are trading him is because he doesnt want to move from SS. And they arent trading Cano for Kemp. Leave it alone!

  69. CB January 12th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    Jorge Posada should certainly be in the Hall of Fame. He’s a much better ball player than Rice – not even remotely close.

    We could just keep going on and on with Rice as a barometer.

    How could anyone vote for Rice and not vote for Raines? It’s just unfathomable who superficial some reporters understanding of the game is. Remarkable.

  70. Phil January 12th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    Olerud was also a better player than Rice.

  71. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    Rice may have been very feared, but the opposing pitchers were still able to get him out an awful lot during his career.

  72. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    Good to see McGwire actually lost votes from last year.

    I’m guessing his “I’m not here to talk about the past” speech hasn’t helped his cred with the writers.

  73. Phil January 12th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    King Kong Keller was a vastly better player than Rice who missed prime years to WWII and had his career shortened by a tragic back condition, but he had enough years to qualify and was a legitimately great player when he played.

  74. rodg12 January 12th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    Bob -
    How can you explain the “most feared hitter of his generation” only being intentionally walked 77 time in his ENTIRE career, with a season high of TEN. TEN!!!!

  75. CB January 12th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    “He was the most feared hitter of his generation and that should be enough to get you into the hall of fame.”

    No he wasn’t. He wasn’t even close. George Brett, Mike Schmidt, and Reggie Jackson – all true hall of famers were orders of magnitude better than Rice. Not even comparable.

    I never watched Jim Rice play and thought to myself – there’s a hall of famer. Never. I thought to myself – there’s a guy how just isn’t that good outside of fenway park. And even in Fenway he’s just not that special.

  76. Garym(Yanks and More) January 12th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    You can debate the HOF a lot but I think Rice deserved to get in. I am suprised Raines didn’t get more support and the problem for Donnie Baseball is that he wasn’t great for a long enough period of time. He does have similar stats to Puckett though but he will not get in anytime unless its by the Veterans comitee which I also doubt.

  77. Bob January 12th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Too many sour grapes for me here today, gotta split. As a lifetime Yankees fan since 1965, who saw all the games,Rice was a monster,and White,Bernie, and Posada, are not close. If Donnie baseball was not injured he was deserving.I think you all are embarrassing yourselves.

  78. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Bob…please make a case for Rice. that’s all we ask. everytime someone mentions Rice deserving to be a hall of famer, all they say is “he was so feared”. Why, how, show us some proof? People have studied his numbers, and he wasn’t any more feared then his former redsox teammates Fred Lynn and Dwight Evans. So what made him so “feared”? Did he make a scary face at the plate? Was it because he’s tall?

  79. Phil January 12th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Back in the `70′s and `80′s Yankee fans dreaded Lynn, Fisk and Dewey Evans more than Rice, who conveniently hit into loads of double plays.

  80. Vito January 12th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    2013 steroid year:
    Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire still around, Palmeiro still around (2011 eligible)

  81. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    Ah so not only was Rice feared, he was also a monster! Well now he must go in the hall.

  82. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    Bob
    January 12th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
    Did any of the Rice detractors ever see the guy play?! Read the quote from Ron Guidry, please, and then ask any Yankee fan who saw him coming up when the game was on the line. He was the most feared hitter of his generation and that should be enough to get you into the hall of fame. Ted Williams wasn’t much of a fielder, either. Of much more importance, however, is the continued ignoring of Bert Blyleven, but one has to believe that he will eventually be elected.

    ————————————————————

    He wasn’t any more feared than Dale Murphy was and cetainly was the GG center fielder or base stealer that Murphy was. That Rice out of Fenway park and you get Norm Cash or Rocky Colovito. Fred Lynn was a more superior player than Rice.

  83. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    “Did any of the Rice detractors ever see the guy play?!”

    Did anyone here actually see Babe Ruth play? How do we know he was as good as they say….because we have studied his stats!

  84. Chris January 12th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    Wait. How is Bernie exactly a better player than Jim Rice?

    Look at the career stats.

    Jim Rice: Career .298 hitter with 382 home runs and 1,451 rbi, with a .352 obp. He was on the all star team 8 times, won an MVP award and finished in the top 5 six times.

    Bernie Williams: Career .297 hitter, 287 homers, 1,251 rbi, with a .382 obp. He was on the all star team 5 times, highest he ever finished in MVP voting was 7th.

    Bernie was better? NOT EVEN CLOSE. Sure, Bernie won 4 world series titles, but if you’re basing it just on that, you’re losing your mind. Rice was a far superior offensive player than Bernie Williams.

    This is no knock on Bernie at all. I love him. But, to put him in the same category as Rice is mind boggling and absurd.

  85. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    Correction: ***certainly wasn’t*** the GG center fielder or base stealer

  86. rconn23 January 12th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    “He was the most feared hitter of his generation and that should be enough to get you into the hall of fame. Ted Williams wasn’t much of a fielder, either.”

    That’s a bold statement and also not true. Plus, please don’t ever compare Ted Williams to Jim Rice as players. Williams was on a completely different level, and probably the second greatest hitter of all time behind Babe Ruth.

  87. gayle January 12th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    According to The Boston Globe the Red Sox are going to try and do an extension with Jason Bay.

    Correct me if I am wrong but if your team isn’t going to do business with Scott Boras according to the Boston Herald how do you suppose you are going to do an extension with one of his clients especially since you are going to base it on this years money for outfielders.

    Any smart agent would say wait until next year the money will be better etc etc.

    Logic doesnt seem right to me.

  88. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    ***Take Rice out of Fenway Park***

  89. migames January 12th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    “That said, if the Hall is now open for the “very good” as long as they were “feared”, then Bernie, Donnie Baseball, Tim Raines, Dick Allen, and Albert Belle all deserve to get in under this new criteria.”

    I agree 100% but not on Raines, Raines should be in because he is one of the best players to ever play

  90. Ed - American League, prepare to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 12th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    “Jorge Posada should certainly be in the Hall of Fame. He’s a much better ball player than Rice – not even remotely close.”

    wait, what? you serious? although Rice began playing before my time, and ended his career when I was 2. is stats really over rated?

  91. SJ44 January 12th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    I saw Jim Rice play in his prime. I was in high school and college when he was with the Sox.

    I also saw him start one of the most vicious baseball fights ever when he was in AA with the Bristol Red Sox in a game against the West Haven Yankees. Bobby Cox was managing the WH Yankees at the time.

    Rice rolled a 5-5 SS, Paul Barreta, spikes high and ripped the his leg open. Blood was gushing all over the place.

    While Barreta was on the ground, with the trainers trying to stop the bleeding, the benches emptied and the fight was so bad, they had to call in the cops to break it up.

    Being “feared” is not a criteria to vote someone into the HOF.

    Mark McGuire was “feared”, why isn’t he in?

    Same for Mattingly, Bernie (when his 5 years come up), Allen, Raines, and Belle.

    Ron Guidry was “feared” as a pitcher. Should he get in? Not if you examine the totality of his career.

    If being “feared” is the new criteria for voting someone into the HOF, then apply it across the board. Don’t just apply it because Peter Gammons thinks so and it involves a Red Sox player.

    Under any normal voting criteria (absent the PR campaign) Jim Rice doesn’t add up to be a Hall of Fame player.

    I’ll give you one more player to look at. Jim Thome. Look at his career. Its better than Rice’s and I bet the same people who pushed Rice for the HOF won’t push Thome.

    In fact, I know of one in that group already. Jayson Stark from ESPN. He voted Rice in and has already said Thome is not a HOF player.

    Well, compare their careers side by side and you will see just how wrong Stark is on that point.

    Then again, perhaps Thome should have rolled a 5-5 SS in AA so he would be “feared”. That will get him HOF votes these days.

  92. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    If Bay is smart, he’ll stay in Boston and become a HOFer.

  93. Vito January 12th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    I would have thought David Cone would get more support. Dominated many seasons and had great post season success. Didn’t get the length numbers but was top notch. I didn’t expect him to get elected but less then 5%?

  94. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    What about Tino Martinez?

    Statistically, his career stats are not much different than Rice. Average was 20 lower, but he has 4 rings and didnt play his career at Fenway with the big wall 200 ft. from home plate and a right field line actually closer than the one in yankee Stadium.

  95. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Chris…Bernie played centerfield, Rice played left. If Bernie even comes close to Rice offensively, which the numbers show he did, and actually provide some value defensively (which he did until the tail end of his career) then you can make the case that Bernie was a better player than Rice.

    Top award finishes and all-star game votes means nothing to me. We’ve seen over the years how foolish the voters can be.

  96. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 12th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    How often do Yanks and Sox go in the same year?

  97. CB January 12th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    “Wait. How is Bernie exactly a better player than Jim Rice?”

    Bernie Williams played center field and was an excellent defender at the third most important position on the diamond.

    Bernie had a career OPS+ of 125 during a time when the league average OPS was inflated due to steroid use.

    Rice had a played an awful LF and had a very mediocre OPS+ for a left fielder of 128.

    There’s simply no comparison – Bernie was a much, much better player than Rice and created and prevented far more runs than Rice ever did.

    Go look at Jim Rice’s home and road splits. He was a complete product of Fenway park. He played in an extreme hitters ball park that’s the only reason his numbers look any good at all:

    Home: .320 .374 .546 .920

    Road: .277 .330 .459 .789

    The difference between Rice home and away is staggering. It’s as if he were two completely separate players.

    And even given his poor defense and the advantage of playing in Fenway he was not better a hitter in his era than Bernie was in his.

    How is a .277 BA/ .330 OBP/ .459 Slg % player a hall of famer.

    The most supposed “feared” hitter of his generation had an awful slugging % of .459 on the road? Really. That’s just nonsense.

  98. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    Rice also spent one third of his career as a DH. Playing their last few years in Fenway as a DH is what put Orlando Cepada and Tony Perez in the HOF.

  99. rodg12 January 12th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    Chris -
    Defense matters too. Rice was mostly a hack of an LF in the smallest LF in the game and Bernie was a GG CF (and deserving GGer). His defensive prowess at a much more difficult position more than makes up for the slight difference in offensive value. Oh, and Bernie being 30 points greater in OBP is a HUGE benefit for him. HUGE.

  100. SJ44 January 12th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    How was Jim Rice a “much better” offensive player than Bernie off the stats you put up there?

    Those stats show they are quite similar. Not a very compelling argument if you are trying to sell the “feared” criteria for selection.

    Did you also take into effect that Bernie was a much better defensive player than Jim Rice AND also a much better post-season player?

    Don’t think the post-season matters? That’s how Curt Schilling is going to get into the HOF. Gammons is already on that toot.

    GB is right, Fred Lynn was a better player than Rice. In fact, its not close. Lynn is the only player in the history of the game to win Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same season.

    He played a great defensive CF before injuries did him in.

    Rice was a DH playing LF. He was a brutal defensive player. For about a 6 year period he was “feared”.

    That shouldn’t put you in the HOF. If it does, then it opens up the door for an entire generation of players who were not only “feared” but were better all around players than Jim Rice.

  101. The Ghost January 12th, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    Ricky deserves to be in the hall but in my opinion he doesn’t deserve first ballot. His antics and me first attitude disgraced the game on more than one occasion and I firmly believe that first ballot needs to be ONLY for those that have been nothing but a credit to the game throughout their career. Another thing – Ricky had the talent to be the best who ever played – and he squandered it. He’s not the only one but as someone who had a ton of passion for the sport and dreamed of one day replacing Henderson in center field, it’s hard to forgive. I’d make him a 100% second ballot HOF, but would definitely punish him this first go round as a warning to all the punks that play the game today. Not that guys like Manny even care about the HOF.

  102. Chris January 12th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    Didn’t Ichiro win the Rookie of the Year and MVP award in the same season?

  103. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    per MLBTR, the Rays signed Gabe Kapler. I thought he was done some time ago but he had some success in Milwaukee last year iirc. not that he is anything to worry about either way, but this reminds me that the Yankees could stand to shore up their bench too. Molina, Gardner and Ransom (assuming Nady is traded) isnt really going to do it. This offseason is unique compared to any recent ones in that because of the awful market, productive veterans could be jobless till Feb. and would have to accept small deals if they wanted to continue playing. The Yankees need to take advantage of this.

  104. randy l January 12th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    rickey henderson story:
    1988 yankees : http://www.baseball-reference......1988.shtml
    the 1988 yankees finished a couple of games out of first and in the winter of 89, henderson made the back pages of the sports tabloids by saying the yankees would have won their division and made the playoffs if the yankee bullpen( which was led by rhighetti) wouldn’t have been out partying so much during the season.

    the problem is most of the bullpen was married. so calls were made and it was decided that the first one in the bullpen who ran into henderson would deck him.

    one lucky member of the bullpen ran into him as an elevator door opened going in the other direction than the player was going and guess who was on the elevator. yup, good old rickey who immediately started begging for mercy because he was misquoted and because rickey would never say such a thing. the bullpen member feels sorry for rickey because he’s practically crying so he says it’s ok and lets him go.

    as the elevator door starts to close, rickey inside the elevator gives the pitcher the finger since he figures he’ll get away. wrong. the pitcher sticks his foot in the elevator door and nails henderson in the forehead with an overhand right and breaks his hand and is out for half the season. but the message is sent to rickey from the bullpen.

    billy martin and pinella were the managers that year, so you imagine what they felt about what henderson said about the bullpen. henderson lasted half a year longer with the yankees and was gone.

    this never hit the papers, but that was henderson. great player. lousy teammate and first class weasel.

  105. #9 January 12th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    Congrats to Ricky… good time to post this again:

    Top 25 Ricky Henderson Quotes

    http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB.....p?t=160837

  106. Carl January 12th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    I’ve been hearing all this Jim Rice “most feared hitter of his generation” stuff for months and I was wondering, have people forgotten about that Mike Schmidt guy. Pitchers were pretty afraid of him. Also some other guy named Reggie was pretty feared as well.

    He may have been up there but saying he was “most feared seems to put him on a different level than those 2 and that’s just not the case.

    Also remember, David Ortiz is arguably the most feared hitter over the last 5 years, so is he now a HOFer??

    Absolutely not.

    Congrats Jim on joining the likes of Ralph Kiner, George Kell and Red Ruffing as worst players voted into the HOF (non-Veterans Committee division)

  107. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    “Lynn is the only player in the history of the game to win Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same season.”

    Actually SJ, didn’t Ichiro do that too in 2001? But I agree with your point, Lynn was better than Rice.

  108. Rufus January 12th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Bernie will not even get 5% of the vote, its not even close. Jim Rice deserves it much more then Bernie. To call Bernie feared is moronic. I never remember ANYONE fearing Bernie. You people need to learn more about baseball.

  109. Peter Abraham January 12th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Just a reminder: Please no crude comments. This blog is part of a newspaper.

  110. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Walls were not Freddie Lynn’s friends.

  111. CB January 12th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    “per MLBTR, the Rays signed Gabe Kapler. ”

    The Rays continue to make solid moves. Not earth shattering but they continue to develop a flexible roster.

    I was hoping the yankees might sign Kapler as a bench player. So it goes.

  112. RER - 98 January 12th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    Nothing against Jim Rice but there will never be a “Jim Rice surgery”.
    Tommy John still hasn’t made it to the HOF with a career of 285 wins and if not for the surgery since named for him, he might not have got the 285 wins in his quest for the magical 300 wins.
    There’s been many careers that have been saved since Dr. Frank Jobe performed the surgery that saved Tommy John’s career.

  113. #9 January 12th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    “the Rays signed Gabe Kapler.”

    I loved him in “Welcome Back, Carter”

  114. #9 January 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    I meant “Welcome Back, Kotter”

  115. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Sorry Pete…although Gammons should be fair game after the way he threw Mrs. Teixeira under the bus.

  116. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Trust in what the Yankees are doing this year. I am sure they are watching the market and looking for veteran deals. Maybe waiting on Wigginton’s cost to fall.

    Then you feel that much better trading Nady, keeping Swisher (in RF)/Wigginton/Molina/Gardner/.

  117. Chris January 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    And how is Freddy Lynn a better player than Jim Rice? Because he played better defense? The stats aren’t close! So based on this analysis, I guess Manny Ramirez isn’t a hall of famer because he plays poor defense

  118. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    CB
    January 12th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
    “per MLBTR, the Rays signed Gabe Kapler. ”

    The Rays continue to make solid moves. Not earth shattering but they continue to develop a flexible roster.

    I was hoping the yankees might sign Kapler as a bench player. So it goes.

    ————————————————————

    How did Boston allow this stud to get away?

  119. SJ44 January 12th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    That’s right, I forgot Ichiro’s Rookie of the Year/MVP season.

    I guess because I never see the Japanese players as true “rookies”.

    I stand corrected though.

    Freddie Lynn could have been one of the best players of all time had injuries not taken away his career.

    He was so smooth and had no weaknesses to his game. Its a shame injuries did him in.

  120. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    RER…John’s legacy will be that surgery, however I don’t think that’s enough to put him in the hall.

  121. pat January 12th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    “Molina, Gardner and Ransom (assuming Nady is traded) isnt really going to do it.”

    With the way the market is shaping up so far this year, Yanks might be able to get a bench player who in any other year could be a starter at a very discounted price. Patience in building a bench could be key, especially this year.

  122. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    CB: Agreed. I think Pat Burrell was the steal of the offseason, especially relative to the specific needs he’s filling on their team. And they do have a flexible roster, full of solid guys – a mix of young players and veterans latwely it seems – that can produce off the bench.

    I am worried that the Yankees are behind the other 2 contenders in the division in this area – solid production off the bench. Are there any creative low risk, high reward potential FA signings or trades you can see them making to improve the bench?

  123. CB January 12th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    “How did Boston allow this stud to get away?”

    The Sox are paying Baldelli more money than the Rays are to Kapler.

    Let’s see who winds up being the better signing.

    Kapler for $1M/1 yr deal is a very good signing. Really wish the yankees had shelled out $1.5M and put him on the bench. He plays an OK CF and to have a guy on the bench who can play all 3 OF positions and hit for some power is very valuable.

    They do need to upgrade the bench and given the plummeting prices on players they should do so.

    Eric Hinske would be a good signing as a bench guy.

  124. Jeremy January 12th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    Chris,

    “Wait. How is Bernie exactly a better player than Jim Rice?Look at the career stats.”

    By listing their averages and HR numbers side-by-side, you are making the same mistake that I suspect hundreds of HOF voters make. You are not considering the positions Rice and Bernie played.

    Bernie was a CF, one of the toughest positions to play. Rice was played about 2/3 of his career at LF, one of the easiest positions to play. For the rest of his career, he was predominantly a DH.

    Bernie’s numbers as a CF are much more impressive than Rice’s as a LF/DH. That’s why it’s hardly absurd to say Bernie was a better player.

    Rice is one of the least exceptional players ever to make the HOF precisely because he was nothing more than a corner OF with a good bat. There are plenty of players like that in baseball history who are locks NEVER to make the HOF. As CB and SJ44 said, the only difference between Rice and all those other guys is that Rice played for the Red Sox and has the Boston media behind him.

    By the way, I don’t know which is the bigger travesty: Rice getting in, or Raines only getting 23% when he should be a first-ballot choice and was unquestionably a better player than Rice.

  125. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Chris…you have to weight defensive value. We aren’t saying it’s everything, but if you combine above average offense with solid defense, you are a better player than someone who is just very good offensively.

    Rice was very good offensively (well as long as he was in Fenway that is) but terrible defensively.

    Lynn was above average in all aspects of the game.

    Manny isn’t just very good, he’s probably one of the top 10 offensive players of all time. That more than makes up for his below average defense.

  126. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Remind me again who Boston has to come off the bench with?

  127. rconn23 January 12th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    “Wait. How is Bernie exactly a better player than Jim Rice?”

    Bernie Williams was a better player than Jim Rice.

    Jim Rice was the most “feared” hitter of his generation?

    Really? Well, here’s a stat for you. The most feared player apparently of all time drew 640 career walks. You think if he was really that feared, pitchers would pitch around him more. He never drew more than 62 walks in a season. My guess is pitchers knew that while Rice had terrific power, he also had a hole or two in his swing.

    Meanwhile, Bernie Williams drew 1,069 walks. That’s right, more than 400 walks than the supposed most feared player of his generation. And, in many fewer career at-bats.

    Career .OPS, Bernie Williams .858, Jim Rice .852. Away from Fenway Park, Rice had a .789 OPS. Most feared hitter? Please, just stop it already.

    Williams played a premium defensive position and played it, for the most part, really well, winning multiple gold gloves. Rice was a lousy defender.

    Bernie Williams > Jim Rice.

  128. SJ44 January 12th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    No Rufus, you need to learn a little about baseball.

    Here’s one way of doing it.

    Go back and watch the 1996 WS video and listen to what Bobby Cox had to say about Bernie Williams.

    He said, “He is the most FEARED guy in that lineup. Our scouts told us to make sure there is no way you put Bernie Williams in a position to beat you”.

    In fact, Cox walked Bernie intentionally to put the go ahead run at third base in Game 4, that led to Boggs’ bases loaded walk, allowing the winning run to score that game and changing that entire series in the Yankees favor.

    If Bobby Cox and the Braves scouts thought Bernie was “feared” as a hitter, I’m sure he wasn’t alone in the game.

  129. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    “With the way the market is shaping up so far this year, Yanks might be able to get a bench player who in any other year could be a starter at a very discounted price. Patience in building a bench could be key, especially this year.”

    Pat: those players are definitely out there, which intrigues me greatly…the question, to me, is will Cashman take proper advantage of this unique opportunity to improve an area of need at a low price? I am a big supporter of Cash’s in general, but the benches he’s configured since the time he’s been in full charge leave a lot to be desired.

  130. randy l January 12th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    “How did Boston allow this stud to get away?”
    maybe because he had to leave mlb for two years to have the steroids leave his system.

  131. ANSKY January 12th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    Rickey was a no brainer …. maybe there were just a few reporters who just forgot to vote for him. He could get in on his SB alone but he had more to add than just that.

    As for Rice maybe it took some thought for some people, but I remember watching him play and what Guidry said about Rice is no surprise. At the time he may not have been the number one hitter in the game for his career but he was among the best in many ways.

    Rice played before PED-inflated stats we’ve grown used to seeing, so you can’t compare him strictly by the numbers to the pre-60′s or late 90′s hitters. It’s different in either case.

    We’re used to seeing it now but unlike the late 90′s it was RARE for a guy in Rice’s era to hit 50HR in a season. Back when George Foster hit 52 it was off the charts. In the 30 years from the time Maris hit 61 to the time Cecil Fielder hit 51 (1990) only Willie Mays (52 in ’65) and Foster (’77) hit over 50.

    Yes, Rice hit over 40 HR only once but you have to consider the era he played in. Back then a guy who hit 30-35 HR in a season was considered a big bopper. A guy hitting 39 three times and 46 once like Rice did, especially if he could also hit over .300 like Rice did, was amazing at the time. He hit close to 30HR a lot too, which was still considered very good power at the time.

    Yes, Rice tailed off in his final 3 years. That shouldn’t take away from him being a HOF’er.

  132. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Hinske was one of the guys specifically mentioned in an MLBTR link from a few days ago as someone who might still be looking for a job in February. He would seem to fit the bill as someone who could contribute a bit off the bench and is versatile enough to compensate for the shortcomings he has as a hitter. Hope Cash takes a flier on him or someone like him

  133. Anthony January 12th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    I don’t get the “feared” argument for Rice. Shouldn’t there be at least one other argument using statistics that backs up his supposed greatness? Does this mean Ortiz is a Hall of Famer because for about three years he was the most feared hitter in the majors?

  134. Mr. Exceptional January 12th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    You guys need a waahmbulance. Rice is in now, get over it.

    If he were a Yankee I’m sure you’d be agruing he should have been in a long time ago.

    The Hall of Fame is dilluted for a lot of reasons. It is the Hall of “Fame” though… Rice was iconic in Boston and put up excellent “pre-juice” numbers.

    The real travesty is no Pete Rose or Shoeless Joe.

  135. Bob(The Original) January 12th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    Sorry, but Jim Rice has simply no business being in the Hall of Fame unless he buys a ticket. If he played for the Pirates instead of the Red Sox, he wouldn’t even be up for serious discussion.

    ———————————————-

    He did play for Pittsburgh. His name there was Dave Parker and he got 15% of the vote.

  136. CB January 12th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    “I am worried that the Yankees are behind the other 2 contenders in the division in this area – solid production off the bench.”

    The Sox are going to have Baldelli and the $8M Lugo on the bench. Not sure if they’ve rounded out there bench.

    The rays have a very deep team especially in the outfield. They may platoon in RF so they’ll have one solid player on the bench from the platoon and then Kapler as well.

    I agree – the yankees should upgrade the bench, especially at these prices.

    I think Eric Hinske would be a good signing. Alex Cora would be a decent back up infielder.

    I do think Kapler was one of the better bench players left on the market, however.

  137. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    Anyone looking for proof of the fenway part inflated numbers, look no further than david ortiz, who im sure people want to say belongs in the HOF also when he retires. His stats in Minnesota were not good at all, then he comes to fenway, and suddenly he is hissint .300 and 40 hrs a year?

  138. BBB January 12th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    Although on the other hand, part of me would rather see the Yanks pick up this Cuban OF (Gomez I think) then sign a guy like Hinske. Then trade Nady for a pitcher. Hinske plays some IF too though, which makes him more valuable

  139. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    Mr. Exceptional…we are just having a discussion, no one is whinning here. If Rice didn’t get in I’m sure his supporters would be making the case for him. The beauty of baseball is you can always debate it.

    As for Pete Rose, he knew the rule, he broke it, therefore he can sit out. He is mentioned in the HOF museum, that’s his reward. But he should never see a plaque in his lifetime.

  140. Jeremy January 12th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    What about Giambi for the HOF?

    Let’s say he puts up two 120 OPS+ seasons Oakland playing a combination of 1B and DH and then retires. He will have much better career stats than Rice over an equally long career, and he’s won an MVP. I’m sure some writers could build up legends about how feared Giambi was, and also how he was such a great character with his sideburns/moustache/golden thong. The PED use would be a problem, but good writing can make people forget about it.

    Sounds like a lock for the HOF to me. All thanks to Jim Rice.

    (Please note resounding sarcasm above.)

  141. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    Please explain to me why the Yankees are even talking to the Nationals. They have no one that would be worth trading swisher or nady for.

  142. Greg Costello January 12th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    Who are the dolts? We already know Corky Simpson, but who are the other 27?

    We need someone to NAME NAMES!!!!

  143. SJ44 January 12th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    The rumors are that Hinske is playing in Japan next year.

    Bench players are tough for the Yankees to find because they have so many guys that play all the time.

    You aren’t going to find a very good first or third baseman to sign because Tex and Arod play everyday.

    They have the best backup catcher in the game in Molina.

    If they keep both Nady and Swisher, they have excellent depth in that situation.

    If they don’t sign Alex Cora, it looks like Berroa has the lead in competition for the backup middle infielder role.

    Tough to have a great bench when you have so many guys that are everyday players.

  144. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    Pete Rose has the host hits of anyone. how can he not be there? his problems came as a manager not a hitter. so leave his managing info out of cooperstown and put him in as a hitter. dont tell me none of the guys in the HOF ever had some problems and broke the law.

  145. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    most hits

  146. CB January 12th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    “Rice played before PED-inflated stats we’ve grown used to seeing, so you can’t compare him strictly by the numbers to the pre-60’s or late 90’s hitters. It’s different in either case.”

    Sure. But this is easily addressable. Simply compare Rice to other players in his ERA and see how much better he was than they were.

    All of the players that played with Rice played before the steroid era so they are all comparable.

    In fact this is what OPS+ does. It will only compare Rice to other players in his era.

    Rice’s OPS+ was 128. That means he was 28% more productive than a league average hitter. That’s nice but it’s not even remotely close to what it takes to make the hall of fame – especially when you are a awful defensive left fielder.

    What’s most damning about Rice’s case for the hall of fame is that when you compare him to players of his era – not only is he not “feared” but he’s really not all that special at all.

  147. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    I agree Tex, but it never hurts to talk. Perhaps Bowden gets desperate and starts offering up some of his young minor league pitching. You never know.

  148. dennis-costanza(Sox fan) January 12th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Hey CB.

    They have added Mark Kotsay as well. They will hold a press conference and give him his jersey live on ESPN Saturday at prime time.

    Hope you had a great weekend. -dennis

  149. Bob(The Original) January 12th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    You know, all the Yankee players say that Burnett was the pitcher they feared facing most.

    Wonder if he’s gonna wear a Blue Jay or Yankee cap into the HOF.

    This is just so absurd. The great thing about the baseball HOF was that it was the only one that actually has high standards and is reserved for the best of the best of the best.

    Not so much after today.

    What a shame.

  150. Mr. Exceptional January 12th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Standing: I’m pretty sure you guys are whining…

    Hold on let me check… Yep, whining.

    No need for a semantics class.

  151. Jeremy January 12th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    To people saying that Rice put up HOF-worthy numbers when you take into account the period when he played:

    We have stats to tell us that he didn’t. The easiest one to use is OPS+, which compares a batter’s OPS to the league average.

    Rice’s career OPS+ was 128. By contrast, Raines’s career OPS+ was 123.

    A career 128 OPS+ for a LF/DH should not get anyone into the HOF.

  152. T15D23 January 12th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    Congrats to Rickey. Hated to see him go, but King George accused him of jaking it when he was here.

    Sorry to see that Mattingly isn’t gaining any momentum towards making the Hall and would love to see Munson enshrined there as well. Always hear that because Mattingly didn’t play on a WS winner, that is stopping him from getting in.

    Surprised by the Rice induction, he never played on a WS winner, was a kid when he played for Boston, and while he was good, there were others on that team that were just as good, from memory, (Fred Lynn, Dwight Evans, etc.) but I wouldn’t consider them hall material. Then again, what do I know.

  153. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    Im telling you, put out the extra money and get Wigginton. He and Swisher can play almost anywhere, makes Nady expendable for a 5th starter

  154. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    Tex…baseball has one major rule which is clearly defined in each clubhouse and dugout. DO NOT BET ON BASEBALL. He not only bet on it, but he bet while he was managing a team. That compromises the intergity of the game. Then to make things worse, he lied about it for over a decade, and only came clean when he found a way to make a buck on the truth.

    He’s deserved everything that has come his way.

  155. Doreen January 12th, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    Good news for Rickey and Rice – congratulations to them both.

    I had to be out this afternoon, so didn’t get to see this live on MLB network. How did the coverage go?

    However, I did turn on the XM Sirius baseball radio station thinking, perhaps, they’d be talking about who got elected to the HOF, but it was Steiner’s show. And is the norm on his show on daily basis now, the talk was about the big, bad Yankee payroll and how they’re ruining baseball and are just irresponsible and should be renamed the NY Antoinettes. This was the gyst of his conversation with a reporter from … Baltimore.

    Sigh.

    It made me sick.

    But back to the good news of the day – I think at this stage of the game the HOF chooses the uni for the player and Rickey had his unbelievable time with the Athletics, so while I’m happy and proud he was a part of the Yankees’ history, I could never quibble with his going in in that ugly Oakland uniform! :)

  156. CB January 12th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    “They have added Mark Kotsay as well. ”

    Dennis,

    Thanks. I forgot about Kotsay. That was a very good bench signing. That’s probably why they didn’t look at Kapler.

    A bench of Baldelli, Kotsay, Lugo and Bard is a very good bench with the caveat of Baldelli’s health.

  157. Paul January 12th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Pete — I don’t quite buy Raines as the second best leadoff hitter of all time. Raines was a very good ballplayer, but Lou Brock was much better. I realize that their stats are close, but Brock played a number of seasons in the era of the pitcher and didn’t platoon (as Raines did at least when he was with the Yanks). Brock was a huge part of the Cardinals’ powerhouse in the mid & late ’60s and a killer (>.390 BA and 14 SB’s in 21 games) in the World Series.

  158. Bob(The Original) January 12th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Standing: I’m pretty sure you guys are whining…

    Hold on let me check… Yep, whining.

    No need for a semantics class.

    ———————————-

    If whining is defined as presenting facts and solid arguments, than yeah we’re whining.

    I’m still waiting for someone to present some numbers in Rice’s defense. Instead all we get is the “most feared” line reguritated.

    Can you explain to me what the difference was between Dave Parker and Jim Rice without using the word feared?

    Seriously I’d like to hear an explanation.

  159. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Mr. Exceptional…whinning would be if we said we are never watching baseball again until Rice is kicked out of the hall. Not whinning and you are…let me check…yes annoying.

  160. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    You can thank Wade Boggs for the HOF choosing the Unis now.

  161. SJ44 January 12th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    Actually, we are having a baseball discussion. You seem to be the only one whining in this thread.

    HOF discussions go on all the time on HOF day. This one is more controversial given the nature of Rice’s criteria for election.

    If you don’t like it, don’t contribute to the conversation.

    I don’t think people are going to stop talking about it because you choose to mischaracterize it as whining.

  162. Bob January 12th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    I just want to see the list of writers who left Henderson off their ballots. Those writers need to be BUMPED off the list.

    As far as Rice, he was GOOD and had some years that really helped his case. But the HOF screwed themselves when they elected Kirby in. Kirby was the same kind of player and because his career ended early, he got an extra push. To me, any marginally GOOD player nowadays will get elected. They have lowered their standards TOO much for hitters, but certainly NOT for pitchers. The writers must be HITTING fans because Blyleven, Kaat and Tommy John keep getting jerked around.

  163. rodg12 January 12th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    HOF voters have no right to argue the value of morals/respect for the game/ethical dilemmas anymore after not finding a way to get Buck O’Neil in the Hall before he passed away. That eliminated any basis for any of those arguments because he was the best example of all of those things and he wasn’t given a place in the Hall before his death. Just something to keep in mind if you see any of these type of article written over the next few days defending not voting for McGwire, Raines, et al.

  164. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    whining* typing too fast here

  165. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    I’m okay with Kirby being in. He had 10 above average seasons and a difficult defensive position. Throw in his postseason resume and I can understand the writers love for him.

  166. SJ44 January 12th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    Ty Wiggington is not going to come to NY when he can sign and play just about everyday somewhere else.

    Only way he is a possibility is if he has no chance to play everyday elsewhere.

    Not likely, given the year he had last year. Last I heard, he and the Twins were close to a deal.

  167. CB January 12th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    “The writers must be HITTING fans because Blyleven, Kaat and Tommy John keep getting jerked around.”

    No it’s much worse than that. The too many baseball writers just cannot wrap their mind around the idea that there are better ways to evaluate pitchers than wins and losses because a pitcher he throws for a bad team just isn’t going to win that many games and a pitcher who pitches for better teams will win more games even though he might not be better.

    They just cannot understand that idea.

    So the writer’s association is in a quandry now because of the 5 man rotation and the specialization of the bull pen.

    Guys just throw fewer games than pitchers from earlier generations so they are going to tend to win fewer games. With expansion we’ve also had many pitchers throwing for horrendous teams.

    So the win totals aren’t what the writers are expecting.

    This is why Blyleven can’t get in despite being so good. They are penalizing him for playing on bad teams.

  168. Celerino Sanchez January 12th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    The Hall of Fame should not be the Hall of Numbers. Rice belongs. I thought Raines would be a no-brainer as well. Paul Molitor? When he was playing, I never thought, Gee this is one of the greatest guys to ever play the game. But he hung around as a DH and got to 3,000.

    I feel Mattingly belongs. I like the NFL Hall in that if a guy dominates for a short period, he has a shot. If a writer doesn’t vote for Mattingly, fine, but he better not be votting for a juicehead like McGwire, an embarrassment, a one-dimensional player whose one dimesnion was obtained through an illegal needle or pill.

    Blyleven and Kaat do NOT belong. Very very good pitchers who hung around a long time. Fine, congrats on a nice career but not Hall of Fame.

  169. Laura January 12th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Add me to the list of people who are more outraged that Pete Rose isn’t in the Hall than this whole Rice controversy. Yes, Pete gambled on baseball. However, what the heck does that have to do with his accomplishments on the field? Absolutely nothing. Did it make him get hits? Did gambling jack up his BA? Did it make him a better fielder?

    The HOF lost its credibility a while ago. Jim Rice is just another notch on it’s “bad choice” belt as far as I’m concerned.

  170. PAT M January 12th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    No Tim Raines, No Andre Dawson….Jim Rice is a tough call in cartain ways….His numbers are can be misleading indeed, but he was one great hitter….I saw him briefly in the Florida State League and again in 73 at AA …..Man he hit the ball hard and far…..

  171. Sal Cipriano January 12th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    I tip my hat to Rickey. I grew up watching the guy rounding the bases, and it feels good to see him get in on his first try. Makes me nostalgic.

    And to me, Mattingly is already in the Hall of Fame in my heart, and that’s all that counts.

  172. Bob(The Original) January 12th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    Add me to the list of people who are more outraged that Pete Rose isn’t in the Hall than this whole Rice controversy. Yes, Pete gambled on baseball. However, what the heck does that have to do with his accomplishments on the field? Absolutely nothing. Did it make him get hits? Did gambling jack up his BA? Did it make him a better fielder?

    —————————————————-

    How is it that people still do not understand this?

    There is one sacred rule in baseball, “NO BETTING.”

    Every player knows this. It’s posted in every clubhouse in every level of play.

    He broke the rule and agreed to the ban.

    The single most important thing for a sport is that it be played on the up and up. Without that it is nothing more than the WWE.

    You get gambling involved and the integrity of every single game played is questioned.

    Rose’s actions seriously jeopordized the very foundation of the game and he deserves the punishment. Someone who does what he did does not deserve the honor of being a HOFer.

  173. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 12th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    I always felt that Rice belonged in the Hall of Fame. Good calls on both fronts.

  174. CADB II January 12th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    Rodg12

    I absolutely agree on the Buck O’Neil point. That was such a disgrace and it is awful that he died without getting that reward.

  175. Celerino Sanchez January 12th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    Puckett is a definite Hall of Famer. He led two mediocre teams to TWO titles. Same people who knock him probably say Jeter is overrated.

  176. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    “The Hall of Fame should not be the Hall of Numbers. Rice belongs.”

    Well without the numbers what tells us Rice is a hall of famer? Do we need more quotes about how “feared” he was?

    Also Blyleven is 5th all time in strikeouts, I don’t care how long he “hung around”, it takes a special pitcher to climb that high on the list. Plus if he really did hang around, he would have recorded 300 wins, which as we know makes him an automatic HOF candidate (right Don Sutton)

    laura- no one is doubting that Rose was incredible with the bat. But as long as he’s a part of MLB, he has to follow its rules. And they are very simple, don’t gamble on baseball or you are banned for life. If the HOF, which is a separate entity from MLB wants to make some special exception, they could but choose not too.

  177. randy l January 12th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    doreen -
    read my story at 3:08 and then decide if you’re still proud of henderson being a yankee. not a nice story ,but it happened. players like henderson can easily become a cancer on a team.

    you can’t ignore his numbers so i have no problem with him being elected to the hall of fame, but he’s not yankee material. the yankees have a higher standard than the hall of fame.

    having your number retired by the yankees is clearly a greater honor than being a member of the hall of fame. mattingly, guidry, and munson have the honor that means the most.

  178. migames January 12th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    PAT M

    Did you know that Tim Raines got on base more times than Tony Gywnn?

  179. 86w183 January 12th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    Congrats Rickey… unquestionably the greatest leadoff hitter ever and an outstanding left fielder too. Rice I would not have voted for… a notch or two above Mattingly, but he was a mediocre defensive player who reached ZERO meaningful statistical standards. So he was feared… ooooo.. Frank Howard scared the crap out of me!

    I think Rose absolutely belongs in Cooperstown. His betting on baseball occurred AFTER his playing days were over. The lifetime ban shoud stick… but his playing career should be viewed seperately.

    McGuire not getting hardly any support is not a good sign for Bonds or Clemens. It appears the sanctimonious members of the BBWAA are going to decide on their own who did what and punish them accordingly. It’s a shame that band of hypocrites had nothing to say DURING the steroid area when they happily looked the other way as men in their thirties gained 25 pounds of muscele and developed acne.

  180. will January 12th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    whatever happened with the lawsuit against henderson by his half sister paula? Did he settle, did he win or was it dropped?

    He was accused of raping his half sister as they grew up

  181. ellen January 12th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    Just wondering: what would have happened if Rose bet on baseball AFTER getting into the HOF? If he was enshrined as a player, but continued to manage and then got caught cheating? Would they have revoked his status? Has that ever happened?

  182. Laura January 12th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    “How is it that people still do not understand this?”

    Bob, I understand exactly what you are saying. I just happen not to agree with the decision. If the HOF is supposed to represent what players have done on the field, his gambling issues should not matter. That’s my opinion. You can disagree with it; that’s fine. Just don’t mistake my having a different opinion as yours as misunderstanding the facts.

  183. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    “you can’t ignore his numbers so i have no problem with him being elected to the hall of fame, but he’s not yankee material. the yankees have a higher standard than the hall of fame.”

    Very dangerous slope you are treading on there Randy.

  184. Phil January 12th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    Mattingly was a better player than Rice.

  185. S.o.S. January 12th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    If its feared hitters they look for. Then Dave Kingman should get in before Rice. Throw in Tony Armas as well. This is what I would call watering down the award.

  186. Celerino Sanchez January 12th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    I followed Blyleven’s career from the beginning – I just never considered him among the very best pitchers in the game. He was just a rung below, the same rung where Mike Mussina was for his career, in my opinion. A near miss but a miss nonetheless.

    Munson, Mattingly, guys like that, they belong. Career stats are nice but these guys were true superstars and unique talents.

  187. CB January 12th, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    “The Hall of Fame should not be the Hall of Numbers.”

    If that’s the case then Hank Aron hitting 755 home runs and breaking Babe Ruth’s home run record should be irrelevant as to whether or not he should have made it to the hall.

    Ted Williams hitting .406 irrelevant. Joe Dimaggio’s 56 game hitting streak – irrelevant. Cal Ripken playing 2,131 consecutive games – that’s irrelevant as well.

    All of those marks and records are numbers so they simply shouldn’t matter.

    Instead the hall of fame should be based on whether enough people believe a player is “feared”?

    Hall of fame voting has always been and will aways be about “numbers” just as people’s understanding of the game has always been about numbers.

    It’s just a matter of what “numbers” you think are the best indicator’s of how good a player is.

    Jim Rice was Xavier Nady on the road. So no I don’t think he’s even close to a hall of fame player.

  188. Bob(The Original) January 12th, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    Just wondering: what would have happened if Rose bet on baseball AFTER getting into the HOF? If he was enshrined as a player, but continued to manage and then got caught cheating? Would they have revoked his status? Has that ever happened?

    ———————————————————-

    They would have just moved his plaque and hung it above one of the toilets there.

  189. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    Integrity of the game? The fact people are still voting for Mark McGwire shows that doesnt really matter at all.

  190. Laura January 12th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    “having your number retired by the yankees is clearly a greater honor than being a member of the hall of fame. mattingly, guidry, and munson have the honor that means the most.”

    Okay, I’ve drank the Kool Aid they serve at the stadium and even I know this isn’t true. The HOF museum is visited by thousands, maybe even millions of fans each year. Yankee Stadium is visited by….Yankee fans. Having your number retired by NYY is great, but I gotta believe that being in the HOF carries more weight.

  191. Vrsce January 12th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    Bob(The Original)

    I do not begrudge Rice being elected to the HoF, however Andre Dawson and Dave Parker were far better ball players.

  192. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Mr. Exceptional
    January 12th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
    Standing: I’m pretty sure you guys are whining…

    Hold on let me check… Yep, whining.

    No need for a semantics class.

    ————————————————————

    Wait a minute!! are you whining? Are you whining that people are whining? There’s no whining is baseball. Whining is only allowed in Boston.

  193. randy l January 12th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    “Very dangerous slope you are treading on there Randy.”

    would you rather be in the hall of fame or have your number retired by the yankees?

    i know what i’d choose if i were a player.

  194. john_halfz January 12th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    This discredits the HOF further. How can Blyleven and even Kaat be out while Jim Rice gets in? Not as bad as Phil R. talking his way in…as a player, but still!

    This just says it all:

    Fenway OPS: 920
    Road OPS: 789

    a dramatic tOPS+ split of 115/85! Before 1981, he was on track, but from 1981-1986 (during his prime), .299/.355/.490. It’s not egregious, but it’s pretty stupid to have let him in, especially for the writers. Veterans’ Committee makes dumb choices, but this is one of the worst writer selections ever.

  195. Celerino Sanchez January 12th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    “It’s a shame that band of hypocrites had nothing to say DURING the steroid area when they happily looked the other way as men in their thirties gained 25 pounds of muscele and developed acne.”

    Great point. writers knew this was going down and looked the other way.

  196. Bob(The Original) January 12th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    “How is it that people still do not understand this?”

    Bob, I understand exactly what you are saying. I just happen not to agree with the decision. If the HOF is supposed to represent what players have done on the field, his gambling issues should not matter. That’s my opinion. You can disagree with it; that’s fine. Just don’t mistake my having a different opinion as yours as misunderstanding the facts.

    ——————————————————

    With all due respect, no you don’t understand it.

    Rose’s accomplishments on the feild are acknowledged there.(Have you ever been? I have.)

    This goes beyond that. You can not actually enshrine a player as a HOFer who has done what he did. He did the worst thing possible, he risked the integrity and credibility of the whole sport.

    You think someone who does this deserves to be honored in the highest form the sport can honor an individual?

    I sure don’t.

  197. john_halfz January 12th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    If that’s the case then Hank Aron hitting 755 home runs and breaking Babe Ruth’s home run record should be irrelevant as to whether or not he should have made it to the hall.

    Ted Williams hitting .406 irrelevant. Joe Dimaggio’s 56 game hitting streak – irrelevant.

    Partly right, CB, but mostly wrong. Ted Williams and Joe D. weren’t elected because of great seasons. If they were, the HOF would look a lot different.

    Hank Aaron was elected, yeah, because he hit 755 HR, but more because it’s impossible to do that without being an HOF caliber player.

  198. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Celerino….see you’re losing me with the argument that Blyleven shouldn’t be in, but Munson and Mattingly belong. Please don’t take this the wrong way but you are coming off as a bit of a Yankee homer.

    Barring injuries and an untimely death, Munson and Mattingly were well on their way to making the hall. But baseball isn’t football, career’s last longer than 5-6 years on average. To get in the baseball HOF, you have to mix consistency with above average production.

    Mattingly and Munson both have above average production, but they miss out on consistency.

    A guy like Blyleven combined both areas in his career. I’m not saying you have to agree with me, thats fine that you disagree, but if you have Blyleven out I just can’t understand the argument to include Donnie and Thurman.

  199. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 12th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    “Anyone looking for proof of the fenway part inflated numbers, look no further than david ortiz, who im sure people want to say belongs in the HOF also when he retires. His stats in Minnesota were not good at all, then he comes to fenway, and suddenly he is hissint .300 and 40 hrs a year?”

    I’ve often suspected – through certainly have no proof but still have suspicions – that Ortiz’ numbers at fenway have to do with more than fenway park…

  200. Celerino Sanchez January 12th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    If that’s the case then Hank Aron hitting 755 home runs and breaking Babe Ruth’s home run record should be irrelevant as to whether or not he should have made it to the hall.

    Yeah, um, that was my point … moron.

  201. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    “would you rather be in the hall of fame or have your number retired by the yankees?

    i know what i’d choose if i were a player.”

    if you are choosing what I think you’re choosing, then you’d probably be the only member of that group.

  202. Phil January 12th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    I think CB’s point is that the numbers record greatness and there’s not better way to measure it.

  203. Celerino Sanchez January 12th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    Blyleven was never a dominant player. Molitor was never a dominant player. Neither belong. Pucket had intangibles, never the best stats. He belongs, Just like Jeter can reture tomorrow and get in without 3,000 hits.

    I am not a Yankee homer – neither Mussina or Posada belong in my opinion. Mattingly and Munson do.

  204. Tex's new best friend January 12th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    I’ve often suspected – through certainly have no proof but still have suspicions – that Ortiz’ numbers at fenway have to do with more than fenway park…

    His body is starting to break down like others who fall into your theory.

  205. CB January 12th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    “but mostly wrong. Ted Williams and Joe D. weren’t elected because of great seasons. If they were, the HOF would look a lot different.”

    Thanks. I didn’t know that. I appreciate the enlightenment as I’ve never looked at Dimaggio or Williams career production before. For instance I had no idea that williams had a career OPS+ of 191 – second highest ever.

    They were simply examples of records that contributed to each one of those guys getting elected.

    The Hall of Fame is chock full of records – that’s an intrinsic part of baseball. The record book.

    And last time I checked records were all numbers. That was my point.

  206. john_halfz January 12th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    Don Mattingly belongs, but Burt Blyleven doesn’t? Blyleven was a dominant pitcher for a long time. He lost 66 games between 1971 and 1974, but his ERA was never higher than 2.81.

    Don Mattingly was one of the top 3 hitters in the MLB for 6 years. He’s my favorite player ever, and I wish he hadn’t been hurt. But he’s a great Yankee, not an HOFer.

  207. Phil January 12th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    BPSN has gone live to Rice’s presser and there’s no sound!

  208. Phil January 12th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    Celerino Sanchez, what you’re not along with a homer is particularly well-informed.

  209. Nick in SF January 12th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    CB: you just settled it, I don’t want to trade Xavier Nady!

    HOF debates can be funny sometimes. Some players are called stat-compilers; “he only got those numbers because he played 20 years!” Meanwhile, players like Don Mattingly are rejected because they didn’t hang around long enough to compile those stats. Was Mattingly not feared enough as a hitter?

    Jim Rice getting in doesn’t break my heart, at least he had to spend 15 years in the waiting room. But I’ll take Bernie’s post-season accomplishments any day. ;)

  210. bardos January 12th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    a very cool first: first player elected to hall of fame who returns to the playing field. love to see that.

    slightly reminiscent of William Howard Taft who came off the bench to become chief justice of the US Supreme court 8 years after leaving the presidency.

    where have you gone Joe DiMaggio…?

  211. CB January 12th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    Anyone who thinks that Hank Aron hitting 755 HR was not the major reason why he was elected to the Hall of Fame lives in an alternative make believe reality.

    There’s no way to understand the game and it’s traditions without it’s records. And all those records are numbers.

  212. john_halfz January 12th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    but, CB, you included single season records and career records. And you used pretty facile examples. So you didn’t make the point artfully. Eh, whatever. The HOF is about numbers because idiot sportswriters vote ‘em in, and the players’ peers pick up the scraps. It doesn’t matter. In an ideal world the HOF would have nothing to do with baseball writers.

  213. 2009 Yankees January 12th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    I agree with a few people here, Andre Dawson was MUCH better than Rice. The Hawk was an elite ball player with the bat AND in the field. He had one of the best arms during his time.

  214. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    1) Posada has had a better career than Munson.

    2) 5th all time in strikeouts and he wasn’t dominating? Sorry but I don’t get that.

    3) Molitor wasn’t dominant, but he was very good for a very long time. That’s why he’s in the hall of fame.

    Dominatant is similar to feared, its impossible to measure. Same goes for intangibles. That’s why we use the information aka stats we have to judge players.

  215. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    dominant* god I hope the new registration system comes with an edit button, lol

  216. randy l January 12th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    if you think the hall of fame is a more exclusive club take a look at these yankee retired numbers.
    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....umbers.jsp

    i think the yankees have the higher standard.
    if not why isn’t rickey henderson’s number retired with the yankees ?
    reggie only played 5 years, as did henderson, with the yankees and he had his number retired.

  217. Joe Monte January 12th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    Jim Rice deserved to be in the HOF years ago. He dominated the league when baseball was going through the dead ball era. Congrats to Jim Rice despite being a Boston Red Sox.

  218. CB January 12th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    “but, CB, you included single season records and career records. And you used pretty facile examples. So you didn’t make the point artfully. Eh, whatever.”

    Ok. Excuse me for my lack of artfullness. I picked some of the most glaring examples one could possibly find.

    The idea that Cal Ripken’s consecutive game streak wasn’t a major reason why he was elected to the hall of fame is ludicrous.

    Dimaggio’s 56 game hitting streak as well – not nearly as important as his overall career accomplishments but part a concrete reason nonetheless.

  219. Bob(The Original) January 12th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    Hawk was an elite ball player with the bat

    ——————————————-

    So says his career .323 OBP

  220. PAT M January 12th, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    My only arguement is that if Jim Rice made it to the Hall Of Fame, then Tim Raines and certtainly Andre Dawson deserve to be there in the next 5-7 years….Dawson was a greeat ballplayer, excell at all disiplines of the game….I did not know that he was on base more than The great Tony Gwynn as Migames pointed out …Is that true ????

  221. john_halfz January 12th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    no, we’re arguing at cross purposes, in that I agree with you, but not with the voting system. The Cal thing is the best example. Totally deserving as one of the greatest SS ever, and an offensive terror from 1982-1991. The second half wasn’t as strong, but it was probably a little to do with the stupid streak.

    But I totally agree. If he hadn’t played all those games in a row, I doubt he’d have made it as easily as he did. I don’t know where he’d rate on the totem, but there would definitely be a Cal “debate.” Which makes the whole system dumb. It was easier when they had such an obvious pool of players. The first few years was like shooting fish in a barrel.

  222. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    Randy…

    a) I am one of many who doesn’t think the yankees should have retired Reggie’s number, but thats another argument for another time.

    b) Reggie is retired because of his historic 3 homeruns and winning 2 world series while in NY. Reggie was on some teams with some bad pitching, hence no world series.

    Come on man you can’t seriously be arguing that its more of an honor to be retired a yankee than make the HOF, are you? You messing with us here? lol

  223. Doreen January 12th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    randy l -

    Fans enjoyed watching Henderson play. Was he a self-centered guy? Well, I figure anyone who refers to himself in the third person has a love affair with himself.

    If you want to picture an ideal Yankee, Henderson probably wouldn’t come to mind. Still, wasn’t his time here mostly successful? Didn’t he create excitement?

    And who was the pitcher who broke his hand, anyway? I know in 1988 I was busy with a one-year old and was on a break from most current culture (baseball/sports, music, movies, whatever – lost in a haze to the Barney/Sesame Street years), so I have no knowledge of Rickey’s behaviors or how his teammates felt about him. I only know the statistics.

  224. Nick in SF January 12th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    “Jim Rice… dominated the league when baseball was going through the dead ball era.”

    You just put Fred “Chicken” Stanley’s career in a whole new perspective for me.

  225. randy l January 12th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    “if you are choosing what I think you’re choosing, then you’d probably be the only member of that group.”

    why don’t you ask mattingly or guidry what honor they would rather have?

    are you aware of the quality of a lot of the writers that vote for the hall of fame?

  226. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    As much as I’ve argued against him here today, I’d say Rice > Dawson.

  227. CB January 12th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    “I did not know that he was on base more than The great Tony Gwynn as Migames pointed out …Is that true ????”

    Yes it is. Raines was fantastic. Played in obscurity in Montreal for so long and is now under appreciated.

    He’s a hall of famer. Fantastic all around player. Not rickey but still tremendous.

  228. Doreen January 12th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    randy l -

    The Yankees have to be more selective than the HOF, or they’d run out of numbers! :lol:

  229. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    “why don’t you ask mattingly or guidry what honor they would rather have?”

    Yes why don’t we go ask them, Pete can you help us with this? lol

  230. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    Jackson’s number is retired because of George Steinbrenner’s ego. It was part of the deal between Steinbrenner and Jackson….Jackson gets his number retired if he goes in as a Yankee.

  231. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    Maybe its because I didn’t grow up during the late 70s, but I’ve never been a big Reggie fan. Too much of an ego for me. From what I’ve read Munson was also quite the hothead, but I’ve always liked him more than Reginald Martinez Jackson.

  232. ANSKY January 12th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

    IMO, Pete Rose should be in the HOF. As a player only. As a player, the guy was the most prolific hitter ever. As a player, the guy defined passion, effort and enthusiasm for the game. He defined the desire to play hard and win over an entire career that spanned a very long period of time. The way he played, it’s very hard to believe he’d ever bet against his own team.

    That’s not to say he’d never have bet on a baseball game or bet on his own team to win back then, but it sure as heck didn’t look like he could even think of betting against his own team. If he were to ever say he did then I’d have to believe it, but until then … nope.

    Now as a manager, it’s a different story. On his plaque it should be spelled out why he’s not in the HOF as a manager, meaning the negative mark of gambling, on his plaque.

    There are worse guys than Pete Rose in the HOF already. Dirty players. Drunks. Guys responsible for the racial barrier being created. Just guessing now, but probably guys with criminal records too.

  233. Vrsce January 12th, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    GreenBeret7

    Are you saying that Jackson would not have had his # retired, except for George S.?

  234. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    “There are worse guys than Pete Rose in the HOF already. Dirty players. Drunks. Guys responsible for the racial barrier being created. Just guessing now, but probably guys with criminal records too.”

    All very true, but there is no proof that any of them bet on baseball. They at least managed to follow that rule.

  235. CB January 12th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    “But I totally agree. If he hadn’t played all those games in a row, I doubt he’d have made it as easily as he did. I don’t know where he’d rate on the totem, but there would definitely be a Cal “debate.””

    Yes that is my point. That streak is a “number.” So the idea that player don’t get into the Hall of Fame due to “nubmers” is just patently untrue.

    Every player ever elected has been elected based on his production – no player has been elected simply “because.” The people doing the writing always look at numbers. They looked at Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson “nubmers” when they were elected. And it hasn’t changed yet.

    The “numbers” argument is just a straw man. The real question is what numbers are the ones that best indicate how good a player was and for how long.

    For instance here’s Hank Aaron’s short bio from the hall of fame:

    “Exhibiting an understated style that became his trademark, Hank Aaron became the all-time home run champion via one of the most consistent offensive careers in baseball history, with 3,771 hits. In addition to his 755 home runs, he also holds major league records for total bases, extra-base hits and RBI. Aaron was the 1957 National League MVP, won three Gold Gloves for his play in right field and was named to a record 24 All-Star squads.”

    What a surprise. Right away they cite his reason for induction as being the “all-time home run champion” and hitting 755 home runs. 3,3771 hits. More numbers!

    Who would have thought that they Aaron got into the Hall do to some silly numbers like that?

  236. Marc W January 12th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    It’s disgusting why this man didn’t get 100% Pete has the stats proving why there’s no way you could say no to him. Rice is questionable but I don’t think he should be in. Blyeven should be in because he was one of pitchers in his era.

  237. BD January 12th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    Catching up:

    1. If it’s all about being feared, why not put Charlie Manson or Ted Bundy in the HoF?

    2. Also on “fear”: It SHOULD be about how well the player actually performed on the field, not how much the other team worried about that performance.

    3. Standing O’Neill: When Rose bet on baseball, there was no rule prohibiting a player banned from baseball from being elected to the HoF. So the argument that he “knew the rules” doesn’t really apply to the HoF part of it. Also, while I can see the argument for keeping out Rose based on his character, I don’t buy the argument that the Rose needs to be kept out of the Hall in order to protect the sport against gambling. Rose has been punished a lot. His being permanently banned from baseball (not to mention jailed, disgraced, etc.) should be enough to deter future players from gambling. Why is exclusion from the HoF a necessary component of his punishment?

    4. Back to Rice: It seems like writers have become more focused on the question of whether a player deserves to go in as opposed to whether it would enhance the membership of the HoF to let him in. Clearly, letting in Rickey Henderson makes the Hall a more elite collection of players. Putting Rice in has the opposite effect. That should be the main focus of the writers’ thinking.

  238. ANSKY January 12th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    ” …but there is no proof that any of them bet on baseball. They at least managed to follow that rule.”

    And I’m sure some HOF’ers even got away with not following that rule.

  239. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    Again Marc Pete’s stats are not whats keeping him out of the hall.

  240. ham fighters January 12th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    rice gidp 131 times in 4 seasons, that is really increadible.

  241. StandingO'Neill January 12th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    BD…I mentioned before, the HOF is a separate entity from MLB, if they want to separate banned from baseball and banned from the HOF then that is their choice.

  242. ANSKY January 12th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    “1. If it’s all about being feared, why not put Charlie Manson or Ted Bundy in the HoF?”

    That all depends … did they ever bet on baseball? :D

  243. CB January 12th, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    “rice gidp 131 times in 4 seasons, that is really increadible.”

    Doesn’t matter. It’s just a number.

    He was still feared as he made two outs over and over again at one of the highest rates in baseball history! And that’s what matters.

  244. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    Vrsce
    January 12th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
    GreenBeret7

    Are you saying that Jackson would not have had his # retired, except for George S.?

    ————————————————————

    That’s exactly what I’m saying. Steinbrenner also tried buying Winfield’s Yankee admittance and the HOF stopped that. San Diego bought it with a Vice Presidency. It was taken out of the player’s hands because of the Wade Boggs fiasco.

  245. randy l January 12th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    doreen-

    i’d rather not have self centered players a team that other players don’t like. henderson played 25 years and he was on what- two world series teams? what effect did he have on winning the other 23 years? he didn’t put the yankees over the top when he was there. i think a player like brosius or o’neill were much more valuable to winning then henderson was during his time with the yankees.

    playing devil’s advocate, i have no idea how to quantify how being a good team player translates into wins, but it’s just common sense that it does. because a way to measure it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s not real. i think henderson basically was a loser.

    i didn’t want to say who the player was, but i will say he was one of billy’s favorites. the story represents a reality behind the numbers. the story also represents henderson’s character. there was a reason his number wasn’t retired by the yankees .

  246. ANSKY January 12th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    You mean Wade Boggs didn’t bleed Devil Rays’ blue and green whenever he got cut, GB7?

  247. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 12th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    ANSKY -

    I know there will always be a Pete Rose controversy as long as he’s not in the Hall of Fame. And it has always seemed to me that people are pretty polarized in their positions, as I guess would make sense. I think it might depend on just how much of a purist you want to be:

    *10. Voting: The Committee shall consider all eligible candidates and voting shall be based upon the individual’s record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.*

    I don’t particularly care what happened in the past. Many wrongs don’t make a right – if there have been wrongs. To me Rose should never see the Hall except as a visitor because not only did he bet on games as a manager (and may well have influenced the outcomes of games in the process and affected players’ futures) he made it his lifeswork to deny having done it. To me that certainly violates the “integrity” and “character” factors.

    While it may be easy for some writers to overlook character flaws in other players, to overlook a player betting on the game of baseball really impugns *their* integrity in my opinion.

  248. ANSKY January 12th, 2009 at 4:36 pm

    Boggs really should have chosen a Boston cap for his plaque. I don’t care if he won the WS here or if he may have had any bad feelings towards Boston in the end. That’s where he was really the player that earned the honor.

  249. ham fighters January 12th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    “henderson played 25 years and he was on what- two world series teams? what effect did he have on winning the other 23 years? he didn’t put the yankees over the top when he was there.”

    so u dont like arod, eh?

  250. ham fighters January 12th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    boggs is wearing a socks cap on his plaque.

  251. ham fighters January 12th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    http://www.baseballhalloffame......rId=111153

  252. ANSKY January 12th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    I don’t know Trish …. the color barrier is WAY up there in terms of wrongs, and IMO as long as any of the guys who pushed for it are still in the HoF, Pete Rose’s wrongs are small beans in comparison. Also IMO, if Rose can be ‘expelled’ so can they.

  253. ANSKY January 12th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    Boggs may actually be wearing a Sox cap on his plaque but his first ‘official’ choice was Tampon Bay. That he could even consider that was ridiculous. All I said was he should have chosen the Sox cap (instead of choosing Tampa).

  254. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    StandingO’Neill
    January 12th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
    “There are worse guys than Pete Rose in the HOF already. Dirty players. Drunks. Guys responsible for the racial barrier being created. Just guessing now, but probably guys with criminal records too.”

    All very true, but there is no proof that any of them bet on baseball. They at least managed to follow that rule.

    ————————————————————

    Not exactly true. There’s more than enough evidence that Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were throwing games and betting on them in 1926. Cobb was stripped of his player-manager status and he and Speaker were traded to Philadelphia A’s and were told that 1928 would be their last year. Because of their status in the game, Landis and Johnson kept it quiet.


    Ty Cobb baseball card, American Tobacco Company, 1909-11Cobb finally called it quits from a 22-year career as a Tiger in November 1926. He announced his retirement and headed home to Augusta, Georgia.[6] Shortly thereafter, Tris Speaker also retired as player-manager of the Cleveland team. The retirement of two great players at the same time sparked some interest, and it turned out that the two were coerced into retirement because of allegations of game-fixing brought about by Dutch Leonard, a former pitcher of Cobb’s.[6]

    Leonard accused former pitcher and outfielder Smoky Joe Wood and Cobb of betting on a Tiger-Cleveland game played in Detroit on September 25, 1919, in which they allegedly orchestrated a Detroit victory to win the bet. Leonard claimed proof existed in letters written to him by Cobb and Wood.[6] Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis held a secret hearing with Cobb, Speaker, and Wood.[6] A second secret meeting amongst the AL directors led to Cobb and Speaker resigning with no publicity; however, rumors of the scandal led Judge Landis to hold additional hearings.[6] Leonard subsequently refused to appear at the hearings. Cobb and Wood admitted to writing the letters, but they claimed it was a horse racing bet, and that Leonard’s accusations were in retaliation for Cobb’s having released Leonard from the Tigers to the minor leagues.[6] Speaker denied any wrongdoing.[6]

    On January 27, 1927, Judge Landis cleared Cobb and Speaker of any wrongdoing because of Leonard’s refusal to appear at the hearings.[6] Landis allowed both Cobb and Speaker to return to their original teams, and both became free agents.[6] Speaker signed with the Washington Senators for 1927; Cobb signed with the Philadelphia Athletics. Speaker then joined Cobb in Philadelphia for the 1928 season. Cobb said he came back only to seek vindication, and so that he could say he left baseball on his own terms.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ty_Cobb

  255. Doreen January 12th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    randy l -

    You obviously feel very strongly about this. I won’t argue with you – I have no basis to do so. I said I have no idea about Rickey Henderson the person or the teammate – just a bunch of stats and anecdotes to go by, most of which portray a somewhat comical picture of guy who calls himself Rickey, who did what he did very well. You seem to know a lot more about this, and I’ll leave it at that.

    I don’t like selfish players myself; but there are guys who are good teammates who are self-centered. It might be a hair’s difference between the two terms, but in my mind there is a distinction. Again, I can’t speak to which Rickey Henderson was.

  256. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 12th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    ANSKY, part of the problem was that the color barrier was part of the pervasive atmosphere in America, so that the writers who were voting probably were part of that same milieu. It doesn’t make it right, of course, but it would be very hard to go back now and expel people for things they did that were widely accepted and probably expected in that period of time.

    Another part of the problem is that Rose was never voted in; so it isn’t like they removed him but didn’t remove others of “bad character.”

    I have a question: are there members who were voted into the Hall of Fame and later removed?

  257. randy l January 12th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    “so u dont like arod, eh”

    wow, that’s a tough one.

    if his career with the yankees ended right now, i don’t think he gets his number retired .

    i don’t love arod, but i don’t dislike him either. do some players make other players around them better? do some players make others around them worse? i’d say yes to both, but i think arod’s effect on other players depends on the manager and what he lets arod get away with.

    i’d like to see a manager who doesn’t let arod get away with having one swing for all situations. arod’s swing is great for numbers, but not so great for putting the ball in play when you need it.

  258. BD January 12th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    The only part of the anti-Pete Rose crusade I’m sympathietic to is the “character” clause (not that I necesarily agree it should keep him out). The rest of it makes no sense to me.

    O’Neill: I don’t understand your point about, “if the HoF wants to have a different rule, that’s there business” [paraphrasing you]. This is a discussion of HoF eligibility. Either you think Rose belongs in the HoF or you don’t. Which is it?

    BTW, Rose didn’t commit the WORST offense there is against baseball. All he did was gamble on games. The Black Sox THREW world series games in exchange for bribes. That’s quite a bit worse, wouldn’t you say?

    Since Rose DIDN’T commit the worse offense against baseball, then it follows logically that he SHOULDN’T receive the worst punishment.

    A final thought: How is it that Pete Rose can’t be a member of the baseball HoF but OJ Simpson remains, to this day, a member of the Pro Football HoF?

  259. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 12th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    “How is it that Pete Rose can’t be a member of the baseball HoF but OJ Simpson remains, to this day, a member of the Pro Football HoF?”

    Maybe because when Simpson was voted in he was not in violation of any of the voting criteria?

  260. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    So Rice got in.

    He can join Tony Perez, Rabbit Maranville and Luis Aparicio, who were also voted in. Do you realize Aparicio had one season with an OPS+ over 100, and a career OPS+ of 82? Takes a lot of defense to overcome that.

    Consider Rice’s OF contemporaries who are in the Hall. Yaz- he was great defensively, his career was twice as long and he did a Very Famous Thing. Willie Stargell. Willie Stargell – it’s embarrassing to compare Stargell to Rice, Stargell was so much better. Reggie Jackson. Does Rice measure up to Yaz, Stargell and Jackson? Is it even close? How do they merit the same honor?

    Consider Rice’s outfield contemporaries who aren’t in the Hall. George Foster. Put Foster in Fenway – think about that. I don’t consider Foster a Hall of Famer, but why is Foster out and Rice in? Or Dale Murphy – an MVP, a fabulous defensive CF, and at his peak one of the very best in the game.

    Oh well, the Hall has long ceased to be the Hall of the Very Best, so it’s hard to get too worked up about it all.

  261. DT January 12th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    Lots of good back and forth on Rice.

    I’m not sure if he’s HOF material, but he’s borderline. I saw him play. He had some dominant years, but I think strangely enough “the steroid era” is what got him in.

    Before you say what?? – No I don’t think Rice used – but power hitters before the steroid boom will now get a pop in popularity just because they are from the era before juice.
    I think you’ll see Dawson get more support in the upcoming years too.

    I think Rice was borderline – and the problem with borderline – it dilutes the criteria for further generations. People will say “if so and so is in the HOF – why not my guy?”

    AS much as I liked Scooter Rizutto – I don’t know if he was HOF material. People who were pro-Scooter used the Pee Wee debate. If Reese is in – so should Rizutto.

    I’m afraid Rice will be one of those people. People will say “if Rice is in – then why not my guy”.

  262. 86w183 January 12th, 2009 at 4:58 pm

    Rose should have been on the ballot. Then the voters could decide. Creating a rule and applying it retroactively is wrong under any sense of fairness. I don’t know if he would get in, but he should have gone through the process.

    It amazes me how many put Rose and Joe Jackson together. Rose bet ON his team and did it after his playing career. Jackson agreed to cheat to lose the World Series for cash compensation… there’s no comparison. In fact the only defense of Jackson is that he was too stupid to know what he was doing. Well, Rose is pretty dumb too!

    GB 7 you are partly right, but Steinbrenner didn’t try to “buy” Winfield’s placque… Winny was clearly auctioning it off and the Yanks didn’t play along.

    Boggs agreed to go in as a D-Ray if they signed him and that’s when the HoF stepped in. By the way it would be wrong to take the vote form the writers since the writers created the Hall of Fame.

    Andre Dawson and Tim Raines were MUCH better baseball players than Jim Rice.

    The idea that any player would rather have one team, ANY team retire his number than be enshrined in Cooperstown might be the single most ridiculous argument I’ve seen on this site…. and that’s a pretty crowded field.

  263. randy l January 12th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

    doreen-

    i’d say that if henderson were available today in his prime, it would be advisable for the yankees to take a pass on him, and then beat him with players that better fit the yankee mold.

    it is true that arod doesn’t fit easily into being an ideal yankee. so what is it that henderson did and now arod that allows them to pile up numbers , but not pile up championships?

    arod is not as bad as henderson though. i think the yankees can salvage being stuck with him if they surround him with the right players.

  264. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    “Andre Dawson and Tim Raines were MUCH better baseball players than Jim Rice.”

    I wouldn’t put Dawson in. Raines should be there for sure.

    randy i’s story aside, Ricky seems to have almost universally considered a great teammate. Maybe Ricky was just having a bad day that day.

  265. CB January 12th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    “Oh well, the Hall has long ceased to be the Hall of the Very Best, so it’s hard to get too worked up about it all.”

    That very well may be true. But what made Rice’s selection so uninspiring is the method and process through which he was elected.

    There was no comparable media campaign for players like Perez or Aparicio. There was no bogus “most feared” argument started by those players hometown press.

    The process through which Rice was elected is one of the most egregiously flawed in the history of the hall.

    Dan Shaugnessy and Peter Gammons kept saying that Rice was feared until it became a total talking point mouthed by reporters and fans all over the country.

    Without the bully pulpit of Gammons on ESPN Rice never gets in.

  266. PAT M January 12th, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    CB,,,I agree that the standards have been dropping for the past decdae or so….Today’s selection of Jim Rice just keeps that trenD intact…..

  267. randy l January 12th, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    “Come on man you can’t seriously be arguing that its more of an honor to be retired a yankee than make the HOF, are you? You messing with us here? lol”

    standing o’neill-

    no, i’m not messing with you. i really think that the yankee retired numbers represent a higher quality winning player than the hall of fame does.

    take a look at the retired players. the average hall of famer is better?
    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....umbers.jsp

  268. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    Wave Your Hat
    January 12th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
    So Rice got in.

    He can join Tony Perez, Rabbit Maranville and Luis Aparicio, who were also voted in. Do you realize Aparicio had one season with an OPS+ over 100, and a career OPS+ of 82? Takes a lot of defense to overcome that.

    ————————————————————

    Aparicio changed how the game was played with his base stealing and defense. He did more to change the game than Ozzie Smith did.

  269. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    The good news is, with Rice in, how do you keep Bernie and Jorge out?

  270. Doreen January 12th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    Wave Your Hate -

    Anti-Yankee propaganda, that’s how. :(

  271. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    If anybody is watching MLBTV and heard Kubek refer to Mantle’s 660 foot homer in Detroit, yes it did happen. Actual measurement was 643 feet on the fly. I was in Detroit that day, 10 September 1960. It went out over right center. If you’ve seen the old clips from the All-Star game in Detroit where Jackson hit the transformer on the roof…the ball was hit about 75 feet to the left of that transformer. He hit it off of Paul Foytack. Foytack is the only other pitcher to give up 4 successive homers in a game (Chase Wright).

  272. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    “Aparicio changed how the game was played with his base stealing and defense.”

    Aparicio was a hero of mine when I was a kid. Unfortunately, I am that old. However, when I got old enough to think more critically:

    He was a good defensive shortstop, but defense alone should not get you into the Hall. He had one season where he hit better than the average contemporary shortstop – one. He stole bases before people came to realize base stealing was overrated.

    I understand why he’s in the Hall, but he shouldn’t be there. IMO.

  273. 86w183 January 12th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    Wave—

    In what ways were Rice better? Dawson has more HR, RBI and SB. He also won ten gold gloves which is exactly TEN more than Rice. The marginal advantage Rice had in OPS + (128-119) doesn’t come close to making up for those discrepancies. Dawson also had a superior OPS + on the road, indicating Rice benefitted greatly from Fenway.

    Only those misguided souls who think OBP is the most important stat in the world consider Dawson not Hall worthy.

  274. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    There’s a lot that shouldn’t be in the HOF, including the ones mentioned, Ozzie Smith, Rice, Cepeda, Perez, Dizzy Dean, PeeWee Reese, Phil Rizzuto and Ross Youngs and Rick Ferrell.

  275. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 12th, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    Something that always stayed with me in a very bad way was Roger Clemens talking about how important it was to him that his mother be in the front row when he was inducted into the Hall of Fame and that her health was frail enough that it was definitely a factor in his retirement – and then went on the play for how many additional years, and his mom died in the meantime.

    As it is his mom wouldn’t have lived long enough to see it – were it to have happened – but at least it would have lent more credibility to his idle chatter had he retired when he threatened to do so. Unfortunately I have learned to ignore just about everything put out there by Clemens. He is definitely misrememerable.

  276. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    86-

    I don’t think Dawson should be in the Hall. When you have a career SLG of .482, IMO your career OBP needs to be higher than .323.

    But when you get a vote for the Hall, go ahead and vote for him. See if I care.

    And did I say I thought Rice should be in the Hall? Must have been that time I lost my memory for a while…

  277. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 12th, 2009 at 5:33 pm

    If you want to talk about real as opposed to perceived travesties, Bernard Madoff is still walking the streets.

  278. Wave Your Hat January 12th, 2009 at 5:33 pm

    “There’s a lot that shouldn’t be in the HOF, including the ones mentioned, Ozzie Smith, Rice, Cepeda, Perez, Dizzy Dean, PeeWee Reese, Phil Rizzuto and Ross Youngs and Rick Ferrell.”

    PeeWee Reese was another hero of mine when I was a kid. He shook my hand and gave me an autograph once when I was in Little League, although by that time he had retired. So don’t go knockin’ PeeWee.

  279. PAT M January 12th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    Andre Dawson was a Hall Of Fame ballplayer…..Shame is the concrete rug he played on for all those years at the ” O” ruined his knees….

  280. ANSKY January 12th, 2009 at 5:36 pm

    Trish I don’t know whether or not anyone’s been expelled from the HoF after being enshrined. Even if the answer is ‘no’, who’s to say there never could be or will be?

    I was just assuming there were guys in the Hof who bet on (or even fixed) baseball games. Easy assumption to make – it’s common knowledge that the ’19 Black Sox were part of a bigger known problem and not the total extent of the problem. Given the specifics GB7 dug up on Cobb, Wood & Speaker, should there be gambling & game-fixing based expulsions? If there shouldn’t be, then Rose really should be allowed in.

    Still, the color barrier was a worse problem than gambling & game-fixing even if it was more common social tone at the time they played. Those guys actually voted into the HoF at a much later time.

  281. Patrick Bateman January 12th, 2009 at 5:44 pm

    Last time I checked all the stats sites “Number of Pitchers Scared” wasn’t a statistic.

    Rice doesn’t belong.

  282. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 12th, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    ANSKY – I really don’t think there’s a good way to measure what is better and what is worse. The color barrier was a societal issue and one that is still being fought as we speak. Gambling is illegal.

    Who knows, maybe Rose would have been voted in if he ever made it to the ballot. I don’t know the answer to that. But he AGREED to the ban. So we are once again talking apples and organges.

    I did dig up some interesting information on players banned from eligibility. You will notice that the majority had to do with gambling in one way or another. There are a few drug offenses in there also.

    Obviously the Hall frowns on ILLEGAL behavior…

  283. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 12th, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    Actually it’s banned from the sport, but the Veterans Committee could consider players for the Hall of Fame. So now I am confused. Does this mean that Rose could be considered by the Veterans’ Committee?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....d_for_life

  284. GreenBeret7 January 12th, 2009 at 6:45 pm

    The HOF and accredited writers determine what players are on the ballot….not baseball and the players committees. The HOF has already said that any player who has a ban from baseball will not be considered for induction until the ban or suspension is lifted.

  285. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 12th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    “The primary cause for lifetime banishment, according to the Commissioner’s office, is that the banned person violated or otherwise tarnished the integrity of the game. *In 1995, the Baseball Hall of Fame voted to bar players on the ineligible list from induction. This was changed in 2001; players on the list can be considered by the Veterans Committee, but not by the Baseball Writers Association of America.*”

  286. austinmac January 12th, 2009 at 9:18 pm

    I have read that Heyman says the Yankees need to trade Nady or Swisher to free up the $10M Pettitte is now willing to accept. Do you all believe that to be true?

  287. michelle b. (X is the best letter in the alphabet!) January 12th, 2009 at 11:44 pm

    I never ever do this, but I have a good source that says the yankees and the giants are working on a deal that would send swisher and ian kennedy to SF and the yankees would recieve Jonathan Sanchez and possibly matt cain. The yankees would have to cover a lot of swisher’s salary and there may be more players involved. I’ll keep you posted if i hear more.

  288. Bob January 12th, 2009 at 11:58 pm

    By the way, in the 20-year period from 1974-1993, Jim Rice hit more home runs than any other player, and was second in RBI’s to George Brett, who played two more seasons. If one does not think HRs and RBIs are important, than he was not a hall of famer. Let’s face it, between Reggie Jackson and Eddie Murray, he was indeed the most dangerous hitter. All careers have to be judged within the era. Is he a borderline candidate? Of course, but the HOF should not be embarrassed to have him as a member.

  289. Corky Simpson Fails January 13th, 2009 at 12:56 am

    So is this a secret ballot? Can we find out who, other than Skippy Dixon or whoever from Arizona, comprised this ignominious gang of twenty-eight? Has anyone else had the cojones to come out and say they left Rickey off the ballot… and why?

  290. greg Costello January 13th, 2009 at 1:27 am

    I guess no one is reading this anymore, but is there any source for Randy’s Rickeu elevator anecdote?

  291. Pel January 13th, 2009 at 1:45 am

    *By the way, in the 20-year period from 1974-1993, Jim Rice hit more home runs than any other player, and was second in RBI’s to George Brett, who played two more seasons.*

    ================

    *From ’74 through ’89 (Jim Rice’s time in MLB):

    Jim Rice single season HR leader:*

    39 in 1977
    46 in 1978
    39 in 1983

    3 seasons out of 16.

    *Single Season RBI leader:*

    139 in 1978
    126 in 1983

    2 seasons out of 16, and none of them were where he came in second to Brett.

    *Career HR leader from 1974 through 1989:*

    529 – Mike Schmidt
    383 – Dave Kingman (only played from ’74 through ’86)
    382 – Jim Rice
    267 – George Brett (played from ’73 through ’93)

    *Career RBI leader from 1974 through 1989:*

    1540 – Mike Schmidt
    1451 – Jim Rice
    1311 – George Brett (played from ’73 through ’93)
    1250 – Dave Kingman (only played from ’74 through ’86)

  292. prcleburne January 13th, 2009 at 7:07 am

    You’ll find doltishness everywhere. After all, there was one member of the Illinois House of Representatives ( out of 115 )who did not vote to impeach Rod Blagojevich.

  293. prcleburne January 13th, 2009 at 7:10 am

    Which makes the level of doltishness in the Baseball Writers Association 5 times higher ( 5% ) than in the Illinois H of R ( .87% ).

  294. Marc W January 13th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    The BBWAA have displeased that nearly 5% didn’t vote for Henderson. I can’t see why you wouldn’t vote for him. Henderson is a model of what a Hall of Famer should be. It’s also disturbing that Jim Rice got in and Bert Blyeven didn’t. Blyeven was one of the best pitchers in his era and its foolish of the BBWAA not to vote him in.

  295. Paul January 13th, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    Remember that there were those who didn’t vote for Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, or Willie Mays.


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