Pinch hitting: River & Sunset
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- January
- 13
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January is traditionally a slow month for baseball news. So for the second year in a row, we will showcase other blogs with a series of pinch hitters.
Next up is Dan from River & Sunset.
Dan is a 28-year-old former sports reporter who has also spent time with Major League Baseball publishing and MLB.com. A Rockland County, N.Y., native who currently works as a writer and producer in Los Angeles, Dan started his River & Sunset blog last May. He doesn’t like when Michael Kay says “geeked” and still tears up when watching his VHS copy of Don Mattingly’s homer in Game 2 of the 1995 ALDS.
Here’s his post:
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Derek Jeter is not like you.
He’s a multi-millionaire with a sprawling Manhattan penthouse and his own brand of cologne. You duck the landlord and wear Old Spice. He’s a four-time World Series champion who plays shortstop for the New York Yankees. You play short-center field in your Sunday morning beer league like a dazed buffoon. He examines his genetically-gifted face in the mirror each morning as a Maxim Hot 100 girl sleeps peacefully behind him. You stare at your double chin in the reflection while your gaseous dog devastates the bedroom. Life isn’t fair sometimes, I know. Don’t shoot the messenger.
But there’s one thing you and Derek Jeter certainly have in common … you’re both getting older.
Jeter is entering his 14th (14th!) full season with the Yankees in 2009 and he’ll reach the 35th year of his insanely awesome life on June 26. In any sport outside miniature golf and Madden football, 35 is generally the time when a career begins its downswing. When you play Major League shortstop — a position that requires speed, quickness and agility — time can be especially cruel. And if you use 2008 as an indicator, Jeter may have already reached the tipping point in his brilliant career.
Throwing out his injury-stunted 2003 season (where have you gone, Ken Huckaby?), Jeter posted decade-worst numbers in hits, doubles, runs, steals, RBIs, slugging and OPS+ in 2008. And while his defense remains far better than the Jeter Haters insist, his range — particularly to his left — is fast becoming a liability that cannot be ignored.
That’s not to say we’ll have a corpse in a No. 2 uniform this season. With an improved offense around him, a healthy Jeter can deliver numbers close to or better than ‘08. But the golden days of 2006 are likely a thing of the past. And with the A-Rod Goofball Variety Hour slated to run through 2017 and Mark Teixeira suddenly anchored at first, Jeter’s future is anything but clear.
The Yankees will never let Jeter retire in anything but pinstripes, so any speculation that the makeup of the roster or financial considerations could lead to his exit is silly. Like Ruth and DiMaggio and Mantle and Mattingly before him, Jeter is the Yankees. His goosebump-worthy Stadium farewell speech in September cemented his iconography. He is on Bomber Mount Rushmore.
But change it is a comin’, and it may be sooner than we think. Is it totally unreasonable to project Jeter sharing DH/left field duties by 2011? If you want to get really gutsy, you can predict that Jeter is tracking down balls in Death Valley next year, though it would take a whole lot of 20-hoppers up the middle to bring on that reality.
But Derek Jeter playing left field? Bob Sheppard hasn’t lived to 200 to see that. For now we can enjoy another season of No. 2 raising his glove to the bleacher creatures from the infield dirt. I think it’s time begin savoring that experience, because time promises us it won’t last forever.
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Thanks, Dan. That’s a few good guest spots in a row. Coming tomorrow: Scott from Bronx View with more on Jeter.
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on Tuesday, January 13th, 2009 at 12:33 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Fun read.
I refuse to believe Jeter has been around for fourteen years. Refuse.
That’s not possible. It hasn’t really been that long.
Uh…right? [crickets]
Good post, and it’s something I’ve thought about for the past few years. Let’s hope he has a better 2009 than 2008.
Excellent post!
Quite well said.
1996 is the earliest season I can remember baseball, and it’s almost unfathomable to think that Jeter may not be playing that much long.
Derek Jeter start with the Yankees when I was 11 years old. I looked at him then as a pre-teen would idolize the older sibling. Pathetically said, He has been the one constant in my life. Through ups and downs, highs and lows, girlfriends and breakups, changes of address, graduation(s), deaths, births, peaks and valleys, and hell or high water… Jeter has been the one constant in my life.
When Jeter retires it will be the official end of my you and a part of me will end. I do not look forward to that day.
Yeah. Im deep, haha.
It should be interesting to see how he does this year if his hands are healthy with A-Rod and Tex hitting behind him. I’m predicting he hits about .320.
*youth
MC:
go take some pain killers and chill out.
Original post? Not hardly….name a team that wouldn’t immediately have him as their starting shortstop.
Enough said!!!
When the Captain had his first full year in 1996, it was pure magic. He brought the light after 18 years of darkness that was our World Series drought. A young, exciting player who hit for average, had speed, and made some big plays at shortstop. A first round draft pick who wasn’t Brien Taylor but methodically climbed up the Yankee organization. A player of my generation who idolized Dave Winfield.
I do agree with this blog that Derek is past his peak. But even though he’s a great ballplayer (his critics are clueless, he’s even a better Yankee. He wears the uniform with respect. He’s always playing with the fans in mind. He handles the press beautifully. And he has dated some of the hottest women in the world. He makes a lot of money, he’s close to his family, and has four World Series rings.
Derek is a god. He’s a guy that we all want to be and a guy that all the women want to be with.
Today Jeter’s above-average hitting more than compensates for his below-average fielding, because he’s a shortstop. That’s why he’s an All-Star. If (when) his hitting declines so that it no longer compensates for his fielding, I’m afraid he will also not be a good enough hitter to start at corner outfield or DH. I think Damon, Swisher, Nady and Matsui are likely to hit better than Jeter in 2009.
It would be better if Jeter could play center field. I think he could have been an excellent center fielder if he had moved there years ago, but I’d dubious that he could do so in his late 30’s.
Great post, I expect Jeter to be our LF within the next 2-3 seasons. I’d love to move him next season and get Michael Young from Texas to play SS. 2B Brandon Phillips of the Reds would be a wonderful addition in the future as well. Anyway, unless Jeter can play 2B which most think he cant he’ll need to move to the OF.
Or how about Robinson Cano at 2b for the future
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01.....149861.htm
WTF
..KILL ME ! KILL ME NOW PLEASE !
Best post yet.
(Not a Jeter-hater. In fact, I love the guy)
Oh so that is why Eddie has bad knees sorry had to do it.
Anyways from Heyman
Free-agent right-hander Derek Lowe is in serious discussions with the Atlanta Braves, SI.com has learned.
The Braves are trying hard to finalize a deal that would solidify their rotation. The deal for Lowe is believed to be for close to $60 million over four years. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution first reported the Braves were offering about $15 million per year in their efforts to beat the rival New York Mets to Lowe.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
Heyman is doing his Boras work again.
Nice post, Dan. I don’t think Jeter will ever play the OF, though. It wouldn’t make sense to move an old man from SS to Death Valley, especially if he really is losing his agility, quickness, and speed. Jeter will resign with the team after his contract is up and he’ll hold down the DH spot until he retires.
if i was cashman i would look to get a SS prospect in any deal for Nady or Swisher
we at least have to start building up some depth there,we pretty thin there at the moment down on the farm, Carmen Angelini is talented but long off from the bronx
baseball statistics amaze me sometimes…..I was just comparing 2008 stats and here’s an example…..
2008 Season:
Daisuke Matsuzaka: 18-3 Record, 167.2 IP, 154 Strikeouts, 94 Walks, 2.90 ERA
Andy Pettitte: 14-14 Record, 204.0 IP, 158 Strikeouts, 55 Walks, 4.54 ERA
….only in baseball eh
Mr Torre January 13th, 2009 at 2:26 am
if i was cashman i would look to get a SS prospect in any deal for Nady or Swisher
we at least have to start building up some depth there,we pretty thin there at the moment down on the farm, Carmen Angelini is talented but long off from the bronx
The only reason you say that is because of this post.. Calm down.. We need a win now team right now, were going to trade a big piece for a prospect SS.. maybe a 5 starter, relief pitcher.. CENTERFIELDER!
I kick myself in the face daily waiting for these godawful guest posters to expire.
same here Michael Bezloch,
I wish it would be all Pete
Aaron(the better Aaron)(KEEP NADY AND SWISH) –
I’m sorry. I meant that many feel Phillips can be a great SS. I want Cano to stay around for a long time at 2B. The only way I’d give up Cano is if we could get Kemp from the Dodgers. I think Kemp is a perennial All-Star waiting to happen. I’d love him to be in our OF for years to come. The deal doesn’t bother me because Orlando Hudson is on the market and could replace Cano. Thats the only scenario that I would move Cano. But true be told I think he’s the future ’star’, ‘main guy’, whatever you want to call it, of our infield. First it was Jeter and that side was solidified when Arod came in. They are obviously still stars but they are getting older and Cano is the young breed. Its good that we have Teixeira now so he and Cano will be around. Cano has a batting title in his future. He needs to start hitting more consistently so he can climb higher in the line-up.
true be told=truth be told
Now I understand what your saying, I was confused before.. however, the Matt Kemp trade will NEVER happen.. Im glad those talks have stopped on here.. it was annoying..
interesting trivia – only 2 of 240 playoff teams had a 35+ ss.
check out The new Bronx Bomber
search: Pedro Alvarez, ‘The New David Price?’
lvironpigs.wordpress.com
I can understand why people would say that last season is the beginning of Jeter’s decline decline at the plate. He’s not a power hitter and he’s only had more than 80 walks once in his career. It doesn’t sound like a guy that’s going to age well.
That being said, I think he’s still got at least 2 more years in him better than what he put up last year. He had a tough time with injuries last season, but he was great in 07 and could have won the MVP in 06.
If Jeter was able to move to CF in 2 years, he’d still have a solid bat compared to other CFers. If he has to move to LF, he’s going to end up being below average at the plate. I’d be more worried about replacing him at shortstop with a decent bat though. I hope the fans go easy on whoever gets that job.
there never be another DJ coming up the pipeline for the Yankees,yes it’s time to start thinking about a replacement & the sooner the better. (2010) N
Im 26 so i seen Jeter help bring 4 championships to New York. Every Generation has there Yankee Lagend . .Jeter is Mine .
I’ll tell you one thing . . When he retires . .i’m going to cry ! . no joking there
Nice post, Dan. Thanks.
I wonder. A part of me believes that Jeter will retire sooner that we would think.
Baseball has been this guy’s life for upwards of the 14 ML seasons he’s played with the Yankees. He’s having a great life, a great time. I wonder if at some point he’d be ready to move on and try something new. Marriage and family? A business? Just musings, I know.
But I see him more in the mold of an O’Neill – bowing out before one is pushed out – than Bernie, who still hasn’t technically retired.
Certainly, if we don’t see or hear about Jeter taking fly balls in either left or center during the course of the next couple of season, I think we’ll have a better clue to what will happen. Because if changing positions is something that is being considered seriously by the Yankees and Jeter, wouldn’t there need to be some preparation?
While there is a chance Jeter’s decline officially begins now, I do not believe it is. There is presedence for players playing middle infield late in their career (Jeff Kent), and Pete Rose continued to hit at about the same level until he was 40. Jeter is 35, not 40, and I do not see his fade beginning now. His numbers last year were off because he played the season injured. Many other players would have sat, but he did not. I look for a strong bounce back season for Jeter. Also, despite playing injured, he did win the Silver Slugger so there is still no one better at short.
bezloch & andy
the guest blogs are clearly marked as such, and thus very easy to avoid reading.
commenting on how much you hate reading them just compounds your stupidity.
can pete take a couple weeks to prepare for a 7 month marathon?
geez!!!!!!
With Daniel Cabrera out of the AL East Jeter has at least a month of injury-free baseball that he doesn’t normally get
I ‘m with Doreen that I think Jeter is going to retire earlier than we think.
But I think his primary goals are to win another World Series (obviously) and to get 3,000 hits.
He’s now 465 hits away from that prestigious mark, which means he’s on pace to pass it during the 2011 season at the age of 37 (provided he stays healthy, of course).
I don’t think he’s one of those guys where management is going to have to push him out the door so 2011 could very well be it for him.
Nice post Dan.
It is not a criticism of Jeter to say nothing lasts forever. It’s just a fact of life that nothing does … until it becomes history. If you do what Jeter’s been doing, for as long as he’s been doing it, where he’s been doing it, the memory of it will last forever as legend. That’s what spans generations and we’re lucky enough to see one (actually, quite a few) taking shape.
For the next few seasons at least, Jeter’s still able to do it. Hopefully he can actually make that transition to the OF and give us a few more years of watching him play.
Giuseppe Franco -
Agreed the 3,000 hits is what he’ll be aiming for. Playing for a WS title goes without saying for Jeter,
.
You know I love Jete’s too, hell I don’t know a Yanks fan that doesn’t. I think he will tell us when it’s time, it’s not time yet, he will know when he cannot do it..I have faith in the Captin…I would go to battle with him anytime.
We are 1 more pitcher, and 1 more hitter from claiming #27.
Pettite/Lowe and Manny….:)
the mets just keep throwing out lowball offers at SP’s figuring this ‘down market’ they keep hearing about is going to get them a bargain.
meanwhile, they have no rotation. i guess the mets will be very proud in the end when they get shawn chacon for half his value, but when they are doing thier cheap lawnchair imitation again in september they might rue thier strategy.
funny how tim can ‘go to battle’ with jeter, then wants to add a guy who cant be trusted by teammates to show up to fight.
ham fighters
I can’t believe they’d (the Mets) risk losing Lowe to the Braves, though, do you? It’s one thing if a team in a different division got him, or the other league.
They (the Mets) do still have money, don’t they?
ham fighters:
I just like Manny..sorry..
I’ll say it 1st…You put Pettite/Lowe in the rotation and add Manny to the line-up, I guarantee we would win the division and the WS…
the mets say the madoff thing wont affect the way they do buisness, but everything they are doing indicates otherwise.
apparently they are planning on leaving castillo at 2B, tatis in the OF, and not worry about which delgado shows up. plus the lowball offers to SP’s.
I’ll say it 1st…You put Pettite/Lowe in the rotation and add Manny to the line-up, I guarantee we would win the division and the WS…
————-
The Yanks don’t want a $230 – 240M payroll. They want it closer to $190M.
No chance in hell either Manny or Lowe comes to NY.
Most likely, they will find a way to work out a deal with Pettitte.
Perhaps the Mets part of the Wilpon’s money now has to sustain more than just the Mets. So, while that part of his money didn’t technically suffer a hit, it’s not as freed up as it was?
Guiseppe Franco:
Maybe so, but I don’t buy what there saying to the media about payroll. I still say Manny is not out of their sights.
Never say never…with the additions to Boston and Rays, they need another big move..IMO
i think the mets are intentionally avoiding new long term contracts and keeping payroll as low as possible for a possible sale.
the move to be made is to move an OF(+?) for a starting pitcher.
Never say never…with the additions to Boston and Rays, they need another big move..IMO
————
That move will be to resign Pettitte. But Manny has never been in their sights.
Hank likes him, but he doesn’t make those decisions. Hal and Cashman preferred Teixeira and got him instead.
A wise choice given their opposite backgrounds.
Guiseppe Franco:
I agree and I’m by no means complaining, I’m just saying don’t be surprised, if they get him…personally I would love it, everyone know’s I felt this way from the beginning. Of course I love the Tex signing, that was my 1st choice..but Manny is not out of the question.
*the move to be made is to move an OF(+?) for a starting pitcher.*
this is something ive believed all along, and especially now that Pettitte’s return is on thin ice.
*i think the mets are intentionally avoiding new long term contracts and keeping payroll as low as possible for a possible sale.*
have to disagree… i think they are just being the stupid mets and screwing things up.
*but I don’t buy what there saying to the media about payroll. I still say Manny is not out of their sights.*
Manny isnt coming to the Bronx. that ship sailed when Teixeira came instead.
Why stop at Manny, Lowe and Andy, go get Big Albert to play DH.
I liked the article today, only issue is Jeter will never ever be a DH. He would be way too expensive and unproductive for a full time DH. If you had to choose between Jeter or Damon at DH, the obvious choice is Damon, he brings more to the table and as a plate setter for the big bats. So can’t see it. Also very difficult to say he could be an OF either. I think at the end of the day, this season will decide Cano’s future with the organization. If he pans out and plays to his potential he stays. If not he will be moved for young pieces in the OF or elsewhere. What about bring in Tulowitski to play SS in a trade moving Cano and maybe some other pieces. Jeter to second base. Let Troy play with his idle.
TurnTwo:
I still think there is an outside shot, that Manny will come to the Bronx..until he signs some where, I will not believe the Yanks aren’t trying to work a way to get him…As this article started with Jeter, he’s not getting younger, you add Manny, with Posada, A-rod, Hideki, Damon, Mo..this team with the pitching would win the WS probably 2 peat..IMO
The Manny move, has no “trade’s” again the Yanks would be working from a strength…”money”….he is a FA….
Doreen,
I agree with you that Derek Jeter will not stay around too long. I see him moving on (he talks about ownership), rather than overstaying and having his skills erode.
On MLB TV, Heyman reported that the Mets made a 3 year offer to Oliver Perez at about $30 million and would like to sign either Perez or Lowe. He said Minaya prefers Perez, other prefer Lowe. Waiting to see who bites at their offer.
*What about bring in Tulowitski to play SS in a trade moving Cano and maybe some other pieces. Jeter to second base.*
thats actually an excellent idea.
Tim, seriously, give up. before Tex came, i had the same feeling you did, but it’s really not happening.
Does anyone have a picture of Gammons in a sox uniform? I’d like to make a point to my friend.
not to rain on anything, but didnt babe ruth play that one last season as a player manager NOT in pinstripes (in boston in fact – with the braves, but still)….dont get me wrong, i dont think jeter will play anywhere else, but yankees dont always keep their mount bomber-more players till retirement…
TurnTwo:
Sorry, I won’t until I see him sign some where.
the mets are gonna have to wait a long time for lowe to ‘bite’ on thier offer since their offer is one year less and $2M less per year than the braves at this point.
Jeter, Rivera, and Posada will all retire together after the 2011 season & the Yankees will be decimated. Watch and see.
Irabu’s Son -
It is a possibility that all three retire together, sure. But I doubt the Yankees will be decimated. Don’t you think they are aware of the situation? They have a couple of years to start hatching plans. Will they be a different team? Yes, of course. But the Yankees will survive. Watch and see.
Irabu’s Son:
Learn to just say “No” to drugs they are effecting your brain…:)
fat toad jr.
sorry jeter’s not retiring after 2011, but posada will be done. there is no replacement for mariano, but nobody else has one either.
At this very moment Jeter, Posada and others are early arrivals at the Yankees minor league complex in Tampa.
It’s an every year thing to have early arrivals.
Jeter will never wear another uniform and I think that’s good for the organization but I hope it is also what is best for the team.
I can see Jeter walking away from the game when he feels he can no longer be competitive. I just hope that time doesn’t come 2 years after others have already reached that conclusion.
By the way, how did Derek Jeter get to be almost 35????? That’s mature. I really hate how quickly time goes by sometimes and not just in terms of Jeter, but in general….
**”mature” was supposed to be in italics. Is that feature not working here anymore?
Say no to drugs? You’re the one lobbying for Manny Ramirez.
Rivera’s & Jeter’s contracts run through 2010. Posada’s contract runs until 2011. It is not unreasonable for them to retire at the end of their contracts or want to retire together.
And while I said it would “decimate” the Yankees.. of course it would. Maybe from not only losing your shortstop, catcher, and closer, but also your three team leaders and longest-tenured players.
even if they all retired together, that would still leave a 2012 team with joba, sabbathia, burnett, and probably hughes and wang in the rotation and the heart of thier order, arod and tex, still on the team.
not exactly decimated id say. and thats looking 3 years out.
Not a big fan of your post Dan. Jeter was improved on defense in 2008 compared to recent years and a lot of his offensive woes could be explained by a broken wrist he played through for most of the year. After he got hit by Daniel Cabrera in May I believe, he just wasn’t the same until the end of the season. It is widely believed that he fractured his wrist and kept playing.
I don’t expect 2006 numbers ever again, but I do expect him to be closer to 2007 offensively. If he can do that and continue to be league average defensively there is no reason for him to move away from SS.
Irabu’s son
Decimation? In case you haven’t heard, the Yankees won a few before Jeter, Jorge and Mo joined the team and I’ll bet they will win a few long after they are gone.
“The Yanks won a few before Jeter, Jorge, and Mo.”
Yeah, in 1978. So I guess Jeter, Jorge, and Mo had something to do with the past few.
When was the last time?
oops that came out weird.. ignore the “when was the last time?”
Along with a messed up hand, Jeter was also playing with a bad hamstring or groin. He was not running comfortably for part of the season (according to my eyes). He’ll have a good 2009.
Jesus will save us after 2011.
IMO Jeter’s defensive skills and offensive value make it more plausible that he is moved to 2B rather than the OF or DH.
Jeter’s patented “jump throw” is ideal for a 2B turning the DP…in addition, his offensive stats would make him an All-Star 2B…
Of course, there is always Cano…
If Cano produces offensively like the Yankees think he can, then his offensive production would warrant a move to RF…or he could be traded.
I think its more likely that a 27-28 year old could move to the OF than an 36-37 year old…
Any thoughts on whether Cano could play RF?
so lets say Joba doesnt pan out in the rotation, and they move him to closer when Mo retires……the yankees will be fine. They have the resources to develop or buy a SS/Catcher…..and they have a few guys that have closer potential.
I dont see Cano in the OF, ever.
I see Damon getting an extension, Jackson getting a shot in 2010 and the Yankees making a push for Holliday.
You think there’s any chance the Angels would trade Kelvim Escobar?
I haven’t heard any reports about his health, following the shoulder surgery he underwent last year.
I read that the Angels called the Yankees about Swisher/Nady because they need a 1B. (How well does Nady play 1B?)
I wonder if the Yankees could add a low-level prospect to a deal that included one of the two to acquire Escobar.
He’s 33; costs $9.5 million, the amount the Yankees allocated for Andy; is in his last contract year; and perhaps, because the Angels have a pitching surplus and Escobar’s recovering from an injury the Angels might consider trading him.
If I’m ever feeling blue and need a good laugh I can always count on coming to this blog and reading somebody’s crazy posts about signing Manny Ramirez, Troy Tulowitzski, Albert Pujols, or whoever the All Star du jour on another team is. This on the heels of some pretty major investments that have already been made. You can’t even make trades like that in rotisserie leagues most of the time let alone with the million other factors involved in real-life baseball.
Perspective people, perspective.
And anyone who doesn’t have enough respect for Derek Jeter to understand what he’s meant to this team for 13 years now does not understand sports in general. Derek should be and will be allowed to go out on his terms. And that will be the end of an era (a very good era!). I’ll miss him.
I dont see Cano in the OF, ever.
I see Damon getting an extension, Jackson getting a shot in 2010 and the Yankees making a push for Holliday.
_____________
I agree on Damon and Jackson….it depends on the type of year Holliday has in Oakland…I think he’ll be a very-good outfielder…but never approach the numbers he put up in Colorado…
I would love to see the Yanks get Josh Hamilton…3-4-5 in the lineup would be sick….
As some already mentioned, I wouldn’t put much stock in last years offensive decline by Jeter. Its hard to swing a bat with an injured hand. If it repeats next year, then I’d be concerned. I’m just happy Cabrera’s out of the AL East.
I don’t know why so many people are anxious to push Derek Jeter out the door.
Its unbelievable. You have people who would rather have Manny Ramirez on this team than Derek Jeter. How whacked is that?
I think he’s a Yankee until he’s 40, then he will retire. The guy loves playing the game, can still play it at a pretty high level (even moreso now that Daniel Cabrera is out of the AL) and loves EVERYTHING about being a Yankee.
Also, unlike other ballplayers, Jeter doesn’t have extensive off-season pursuits. The extent of them involve chasing down more Maxim Top 100 women and adding them to his totals.
I will say that if he met someone and chose to settle down and have a family, that could move up his retirement timetable.
Absent that, I think he plays until he’s 40 and won’t put up the fuss about changing positions (when its time) that some fans think is in the offing.
SJ44…what position do you think he will move to?
Do you think its more plausible that he moves to 2B…or the LF/DH?
“Derek should be and will be allowed to go out on his terms.”
I agree he will be allowed but the question is whether he should be allowed.
If you believe that about Jeter, did you also think the Yankees should have let Bernie play CF as long as he wanted to? He was as instrumental in the recent success of the franchise as anyone.
Sometimes endings are graceful, sometimes not so much. I just hope that everyone comes to the same conclusion at the same time so it can be tidy instead of messy.
ok this talk about the end of jeters career is just a little premature at this point imo. im about as worried about it now as i am about the end of days.
Pat
Good points and agreed.
I gotta believe that between Jeter and the Yankees management it will be a clean break. Jeter’s character is that he wouldn’t hang around to hang around and hurt the team.
I’m sure he wants that 3000 hit club, but who could blame him for that? Besides, he will play decent SS for the next two years to enable that happening. I am sure you’d agree there’s more to a player’s worth to a team than cold statistics, and no more so than in Derek Jeter’s case.
As a Engineer & Math major I love statistics as much as the next person! (Ok a lot more!) But what I find amazing is people can watch Jeter daily and complain that he isn’t a great defensive SS. Or his batting average is only so so! It reminds me of the story of Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel because the Pope saw the daily grind he didn’t recognize the overall beauty.
Jeter is a great SS! He has a brain for baseball akin to Ripken. Jeter plays team baseball. He studies the hitters and positions himself according to their tendancies and the pitcher’s pitches. He makes plays others dream of while be consistent in the routine ones. He isn’t Ozzie with a glove, but who is? He is Jeter. He is clutch. He is sacrificial. He plays hurt when he is needed. He doesn’t boast or make excuses. He played SS for years with a 1B man that couldn’t scoop a ball out of the dirt or move side to side. Do you think the fact that Yankee infielders all made more errors than their norm is a coincidence? As a former infielder, I can tell you it is always in your mind that everything must be perfect if there is a stone glove at 1B. But for the sake of the team all have suffered in silence publically.
Now for the hitting! Jeter is a number 2 hitter for most of his career. Don’t all of us understand that a number 2 hitter is a setup guy. So more than 1/4 of his at bats are trying to hit to RF to move a runner to setup a hitter behind him. He takes pitches! He works counts! He moves runners. He does his job very well. He also is a great baserunner. (No he isn’t Rickey Henderson!) He does the intagibles daily. One can’t look at a game or an at bat or one play and say it isn’t perfection.
He is a Michelangelo of baseball. When you look at his masterpiece you say he was lucky, he was great, he was gifted, he was on great teams, he was clutch, he was in position, he made historic plays, he was Jeter! That will be enough said!
So sit back and enjoy the artist at work. Listen to the uneducated say he needs to move on or out. Remember, they don’t understand how he was able to do the things he has done, because they don’t see the overall work. They blindly see what he isn’t! Not what he is! Luck is 90% preperation & 10% inspiration. Jeter is Great! Enjoy these moments! His work here is almost complete! Maybe 3 or 4 more years! Perhaps more, perhaps less! Then it will be SS of unknown names and unknown results and sadness!
SJ,
Could part of the NYY “slow” dealing with the Pettitte situation be that they had an idea the Clemens grand jury was set to convene? I’m guessing that if Andy were signed they wouldn’t want the focus in April to be his possible testimony rather than opening of the new stadium.
Maybe now they definitely move on to other options not knowing what Andy’s involvement with the grand jury will be.
Your thoughts?
Jeter’s ’slide’, if you call .300 a slide, was partly because of the pitch he was hit with by Cabrera. That affected him for months.
This post has some major problems. And I’m not talking about the humor.
“And with the A-Rod Goofball Variety Hour slated to run through 2017 and Mark Teixeira suddenly anchored at first, Jeter’s future is anything but clear.”
Two questions:
First, why the dig at ARod? He will likely be the best-hitting 3B in baseball, and one of the best hitters in baseball, period, for almost every year of his contract.
Second, do you really think that Jeter can hit well enough to play 1B?
“The Yankees will never let Jeter retire in anything but pinstripes, so any speculation that the makeup of the roster or financial considerations could lead to his exit is silly.”
This is unrealistic, considering the parties involved. The Yankees have demonstrated time and again that they do not sign players for sentimental reasons. Jeter has demonstrated that he is a master of maintaining a “classy” persona. So I doubt the Yankees will care to overpay Jeter if they have no use for him, or that Jeter would demand an exorbitant contract once it became clear he had no role on the team.
But if Jeter surprisingly takes a hardline position on a new contract, and the Yankees aren’t over a barrel like they were in the Posada and Rivera negotiations, they will not roll over and give Jeter whatever he wants.
“But change it is a comin’, and it may be sooner than we think. Is it totally unreasonable to project Jeter sharing DH/left field duties by 2011?”
Yes. There is no conceivable possibility that the Yankees will make Jeter their LF/DH. You need to hit for power to be a LF/DH. Adam Dunn makes a good LF/DH. Manny Ramirez makes a great LF/DH. Derek Jeter would be an embarrassment as a LF/DH.
“If you want to get really gutsy, you can predict that Jeter is tracking down balls in Death Valley next year, though it would take a whole lot of 20-hoppers up the middle to bring on that reality.”
Replace “gutsy” with “into making predictions that have no basis in reality,” then sure, this statement makes sense. Why would the Yankees move Jeter, whose defense actually IMPROVED last season, into the OF when we have a glut of outfielders already? And who’s going to play shortstop in his absence? Angel Berroa?
What do you expect from a guy who lives in Hollywood?
Live there for a while, and unless they invite “you” to the party at Spago’s, “you” begin to despise everyone who earns an invitation.
Poor Dan. He’s around all those gorgeous women. And not one will sleep with him because he hasn’t appeared on TV. Hey bro, I know the feeling.
By the way, all the conniving A-level celebrities obsessed with remaining on the A-list– they don’t date ball players.
Only directors, studio execs, fellow A-list stars, and the occasional screen writer.
If they date a ball player, it’s only because they’re afraid their career is plummeting and they want to appear on Page 6.
And the real actresses, the ones with genuine emotional depth and talent, who work most of their time on stage, generally prefer regular everyday people who have conventional jobs and stable emotional lives.
Is Minka Kelly or whichever starlet (notice the “let”) Jeter is dating at the moment a reason to envy him anyway?
If I’m going to envy a Yankees it’s Cashman or Randy Levine, not Jeter.
Can you imagine any career that requires you to retire after 40? I can’t. I don’t care how much money it paid. I’d go out of my mind.
There is no slow dealing with Pettitte. They told him what he is worth, and Pettitte being greedy as always, thinks he is worth more than he is.
Until Jeter starts losing games with poor defense (it hasn’t come to that), he will be the starting SS.
The Clemens stuff has nothing to do with Pettitte’s situation.
They made an offer, an offer he has yet to find better on the open market, and he turned it down. Simple as that.
Now, both sides have to retrench and see where they go from here.
The Yankee offer isn’t going up. No reason for it to go up since Andy doesn’t have a better offer from anybody else at the present time.
Pettitte’s agents (the Hendricks Brothers) are scrambling to find a better offer so they can gain leverage on the Yankees. So far, they have come up dry.
Since Andy has told everybody he is close to he wants to pitch in 2009, its pretty clear (at least to me) he’s not retiring.
So, he either takes the Yankees offer or takes less money to play somewhere else. It would drive him nuts to retire when he still has the zeal to play.
*They told him what he is worth, and Pettitte being greedy as always, thinks he is worth more than he is.*
though the way Clemens’s case is going down now, it certainly wont help Pettitte’s leverage, thats for sure.
Hey, tell Tex I said Hello. Man, that’s one guy I don’t envy.
The NY papers depicted his wife– not that I place much stock in their portrait- as though she was the double of Lauren Holly’s character in “Any Given Sunday,” one of Stone’s better films, incidentally, over the last decade.
“Not a big fan of your post Dan. Jeter was improved on defense in 2008 compared to recent years and a lot of his offensive woes could be explained by a broken wrist he played through for most of the year. After he got hit by Daniel Cabrera in May I believe, he just wasn’t the same until the end of the season. It is widely believed that he fractured his wrist and kept playing.”- patrick
dan-
i’m with patrick. not mentioning jeter’s injury after getting hit by cabrera weakens the post considerably. while getting your point that everyone ages including jeter, you may be playing short center field in your sunday beer league at age 40, but i remember at age 40 pinch hitting for jose cruz and then replacing him in left field next to cesar cedeno .
everyone’s age 40 isn’t the same ,and jeter at age 40 may be a much better athlete than you think. he has all the characteristics of the kind of player who could keep his athleticism into his 40’s. he’s lean, fast, agile,and is not injury prone.
lifestyle and training can extend playing careers well beyond the old stereotype of the aging ballplayer. jeter, as others have mentioned may simply decide to retire, but it will likely be his choice and not a necessity.
that said, i think it’d be great if jeter started taking balls in bp in left field. it would give both him and the yankees options.
“Jesus will save us after 2011.”
Whoever knows him would agree w/ you, whoever doesn’t would be like huh ?…. I say this name is going to make people at ease. Austin Jackson after him either DeLeon or Jesus will be the next big thing.
After 2010 Jeter moves to 3rd with Arod moving to DH.
I also keep forgeting Eduardo Sosa is hitting the states, they compared him to the Dominican Johnny Damon.
SJ44, do you think there’s any chance the Angels would trade Kelvim Escobar?
Brandon, do you know anything about these two Cuban players?
“After 2010 Jeter moves to 3rd with Arod moving to DH.”
That’s never going to happen, it’s either LF or retirement. Or worst case scenerio they let Jetes walk.
“Also, unlike other ballplayers, Jeter doesn’t have extensive off-season pursuits.”
I think he mostly trains and stays in good shape, like every other baseball player except Andruw Jones.
“The extent of them involve chasing down more Maxim Top 100 women and adding them to his totals.”
Don’t forget whatever effort goes into managing his endorsements and brand, including his cologne and gym. I would bet Jeter has less time for baseball-related conditioning in the offseason than most players.
What are these “other ballplayers” doing that’s so “extensive”, anyway? Spelunking for Incan treasure? Spying against Iran?
As for “pushing Jeter out the door,” Jeter has a huge contract which is soon to expire. It’s natural to think about what’s going to happen next. I don’t think anyone wants to get rid of Jeter. But no one wants to see an overpaid and overaged Jeter batting .200 and playing execrable defense either.
Jeter changed his training regimen last off-season and it yielded solid results. He was on his way to having a very good season until Daniel Cabrera smashed his hand to bits.
The guy played the rest of the year hurt. That stuff happens, whether you are 25 or 35.
He’s training hard this off-season and he will be Derek Jeter again this year. I don’t see as much dropoff in his game as others do.
Then again, most folks who want Jeter out of here, don’t have a replacement. Something you ought to think about.
Do you want to be the Yankee prospect that replaces Derek Jeter at SS? One bad game, and folks will lose their minds.
That’s why I think it will be years before they move him off SS. When they do, they will find a veteran player to replace him.
I can’t imagine a kid replacing Derek Jeter. That’s way too much pressure to put on a young guy.
No way on earth Derek had a broken wrist. He may have played with a cracked bone in his left hand but it would be impossible to play with a broken wrist.
There’s no question he’ll be the SS for the next two years. At that point he’ll be a stone’s throw from 3,000 hits, and hopefully he’ll have another ring or two. I don’t know if he has fast enough hands and feet for 2B. He could DH beginning in 2011 depending on how things progress, but it’s too early to project that now.
Jeter and Rivera are signed through 2010, Posada thru 2011 so it’s hard to be sure they’ll leave together. If they do, the Yanks will have $ 50 Million or more to spend on replacements… ideally Romine/Montero takes care of C, Melancon or Sanchez or Brackman could end up as the closer and we’ll see if Angelini canplay SS.
Any chance they move Jackson to LF and let Jeter play CF?
Evidently the Sux are close to acquiring Miguel Montero from the D-backs.
You know, despite the Yankees outmaneuvering the Sux on Tex, I actually have to commend Theo and his retinue for every move they’ve made this off-season.
Unfortunately, that Sux front-office is very good at what they do.
I still worry the Yankees haven’t improved enough to surpass both the Sux and the Rays.
Maybe not, Brandon, but, it makes more sense then moving an old player-Jeter will be 37 by then-to the outfield. Historically speaking, Other than Biggio, I can’t think of a player who was moved to the OF from the infield in his late 30s.
Is anyone else worried about what position Ajax is gonna be playing in 2020?
“Brandon, do you know anything about these two Cuban players?”
The pitcher was one of the best in Cuba’s WBC team a few yrs. ago, he likely dropped off, me personally I’d take the CF Yasser Gomez, he’s a speedster at worst he’s Endy Chavez, he has a good bat played for the Yankees of Cuba Industriales, plays w/ a chip on his shoulder, loves to hit, we’re talking pure hitter, he once hit .391 and over in the Intl. competition, he’d be the kind of guy that can handle NY.
I’m sure the Angels would love to trade Escobar and free them from that contract.
Why would you want to trade for a guy whose shoulder is in bad shape?
Those are the kind of deals you stay away from if you are the Yankees. That’s what got them into trouble in the past.
I don’t think they have any interest in trading for a guy with the medical history Escobar possesses.
If they were interested in guys like that, they could sign Sheets. They are staying away from him for the same reasons.
Derek Jeter will retire before hitting .200 and playing horrible defense.
Worry about that if it ever happens. So far, he’s not close to being that player.
You are talking about something that is a minimum of 3 seasons away. That’s a lifetime in Yankeeland.
Its a non-issue except to those who need something to worry about on a daily basis.
“Any chance they move Jackson to LF and let Jeter play CF?”
None.
“Is anyone else worried about what position Ajax is gonna be playing in 2020?”
LOL.
LOL raymagnetic!
Sadly though, there probably are.
Time to Win Now
Good morning and 4 days since my last Manny post. I see Ham, that Tim up above is on this train too.
While this post on Jeter may be premature, it is right in line with my belief in the 3 yr window to win theory.
We have Jeter, Mo, Posada, potentially CC all in a 3 yr window.
With what Boston has added along with the Rays, we still have work to do. Both of their pitching staffs are strong and MLB argues that Bostons is way better than ours from top to bottom.
We need another bat to give us the best line up in baseball and Manny is that bat.
We absoulutely need to sign Pettite for the number 4 spot.
Trade Nady for IF depth or another bullpen arm and salary dump Matsui to make room for Manny. Pay part of the salary if need be. Please don’t give me this reduce payroll crap as we can handle the hit for 1 year with Damon and Pettite coming off the books next year.
I don’t understand why more people on this site are not on board with this. Forget about the attitude as that will work it self out. You may not want to go to war with Manny but you will win the war with him. Manny belongs in the AL not the NL. He will cost us a 4th rounder and no guarantee that we get a Holiday next year and the Sox will lock up Bay.
Cash is low flying on this again and when the market comes back to him and he receives that Manny wants to be a yankee call from Boras he’d better be prepared to pull the trigger or we will finish behind Boston again.
Matsui and Nady are 1 and done and we need to get ready for a 3 yr run. Thats my story and I’m stickin with it.
Brandon,
I’d say Jesus. He raked in SC last year at like 12yrs old.
I could see him in the Bronx by 2011, maybe even called up in 2010.
Speaking of Cuba… I wonder what the Yankees now plan to do with Juan Miranda.
If the Yankees don’t trade Swisher or Nady, I hope they trade Miranda so he receives a chance to make another team’s major league roster.
I liked the guy’s swing. One of my Cuban neighbors tells me that the Cuban team once considered Miranda an incipient Superstar.
2011 would be realistic for Jesus but seriously would I be surprised if he ends up the new catcher in 2010. Yup.
Nostradamous says he’s coming in 2012.
“I liked the guy’s swing. One of my Cuban neighbors tells me that the Cuban team once considered Miranda an incipient Superstar.”
The Yankees signed this 26 yr. old out of the Mexican League, who many say has to be one of the best raw pure hitters, Jorge Vasquez I’m trying to find video of this guy in action they say his bat >>>>>> Miranda.
Unless the Red Sox agree to trade Michael Bowden, they aren’t close to getting Montero.
Even if they make that deal, he’s nothing special. As far as a handler of pitchers, he’s no where in the class of Varitek.
That was Varitek’s strength as a catcher. He was a GREAT caller of games. One of the best I’ve ever seen.
You get a guy in from the NL, he has to learn all of the AL hitters and do it in a pressure cooker like Boston. No easy task.
For everybody worrying about the Yankees, what have the Red Sox done that is so great? They lost their #1 off-season target in Tex. He was that way because they are worried about the health of Lowell and Ortiz.
Smoltz, Saito, Penny, Baldelli and Saito don’t have “some” injury questions. They have major injury questions.
Its a nice bunch of names, and fans LOVE names in the off-season. However, every one of these guys have question marks attached to them.
For their off-season to be labeled a “success”, all of their injury question marks have to be answered in the affirmative. Could that happen? Sure, it could.
Chances are though, it won’t. What happens then? They have issues.
For all the worry about AJ Burnett’s health, Josh Beckett has spent more time on the DL that last two years than Burnett. He’s another question mark.
They need a lot of things to go right for their off-season moves to pan out.
The Yankees have more surety in their acquisitions. Unless of course, you believe CC Sabathia, AJ Burnett and Mark Teixeira are all of a sudden going to forget how to play baseball because they are in NY.
I know that’s the common belief of Yankee detractors. However, people who actually understand the game can see nobody in baseball improved themselves as much as the Yankees so far this off-season.
switching back to the Sox for a sec, can anyone give a scouting report on Miguel Montero?
I’ve seen his stats but am curious how he projects.
thanks.
Manny talk … Manny talk … jeezz.
IMO, as I’ve ranted numerous times before, Manny would be a bad move. I was so glad when they pulled Teixiera out of their hats even though they’d already gotten a decent upgrade at 1B with Swisher. That should be enough in terms of big contracts and big name players. Any further moves should be for less pricey but reliable non-all star players that can fill roles with hustle, consistency and better than average ability. And Manny ain’t that by a long shot.
I’m worried that as Manny’s price comes down (deservedly so)
it may become too hard for those over Cashman’s head to resist signing him. That would be a mistake.
If Manny becomes (picking a number out of the sky just for example) a $10M per year ‘bargain’ it would still be better to spend half that much on younger players who can play the OF for years to come, or backup the infield, or fill out the rotation until Hughes & company can do the job, or develop into Jeter’s eventual replacement at SS in a few years … but (again) I worry it won’t happen that way.
Manny would be unhappy and therefore unreliable if he had to settle for (again, just for example) $10M per year. Look what he did in Boston when he wasn’t happy with the prospect of making twice that much. Given the attitude & level of performance you’d probably get in return, offering him anything less than he might have been led by Boras to believe he should have gotten (anything less than $22M-23M for 3-4 years?) WON’T be a bargain so STAY AWAY.
I had a concern about Escobar’s shoulder as well. However, I don’t know how serious the injury was, do you, SJ44?
I figured if the surgery had a high recovery rate and was minor, it might be worth the risk, if the Yankees can unload Nady in the process. Especially because Escobar is signed for $9.5 million next year and is then a free-agent.
Would the Angels take Nady (3.35M) and Igawa (4M) for Escobar? I’d make that trade, despite Escobar’s injury risk. He might be ready next year just as Joba reaches his innings limit.
In addition, Escobar has big heart, evidently. He tried to return last year notwithstanding the injury.
thanks SJ
“Is anyone else worried about what position Ajax is gonna be playing in 2020?”
it won’t be left field unless some manager is trying to kill him. can you imagine arod having to catch a high pop up at third for the last out like nettles did to get the yankees into the playoffs.
the first thing arod would do is whip out his cell phone and speed dial his sports shrink. then he’d start blowing air in and out trying not to hyperventilate. then he’d be yelling,” jeter, where are you?” jeter will have to run in from left field to make a diving season saving catch( it is 2020 after all).
Arod and Jeter need to switch positions…problem solved.
Kelvim Escobar had labrum surgery. No thank you.
KS,
He had labrum surgery and has also had his elbow done. He’s got a lot of miles on that arm.
A big heart can’t make up for an injured wing.
I don’t see the Yankees making a move like that.
They would give Hughes and Aceves a shot before tying up that much money on a guy with significant injury questions.
That’s the change that’s taking place in the game right now.
Risk is managed differently be teams. For the Yankees, they are staying away from guys with back and shoulder issues.
IMO, its the reason why they made the offer they made to Pettitte. They know his injury history better than anybody. They calculated what he’s worth in the market, considered his health issues, added a “Yankee bonus”, and came up with 10 million.
When you look at other players on other teams, it gets murkier because of their injury histories. I think that’s the biggest reason why Escobar has few takers right now even though the Angels have shopped him this winter.
The Yankees don’t need to trade Nady. Or Swisher for that matter. If something comes along that would improve the team, I’m sure they would look at it.
They don’t however, have to make a move. Its nice to have depth for a change.
I’d still take the Red Sux lineup to the Yankees, even with Tex.
1) Damon vs. Ellsbury– Draw or Edge Damon (if 2008 Damon, if 2007 Damon, Ellsbury)
Nady/Swisher vs. Lugo/Lowrie — Draw
2) Jeter vs. Pedroia– Pedroia
3) Tex vs. Drew– Tex
4) A-Rod vs. Ortiz– Edge A-Rod or Draw, if Ortiz is healthy
5) Matsui vs. Youklis– Youklis
6) Posada vs. Bay– Bay (Even if Jorge is healthy)
7) Cano vs. Lowell– (which Cano? is Lowell healthy?)
9) Varitek vs. Cabrera/Gardner — Draw
That’s three Boston certainties Pedroia, Youklis, Bay
And one Yankees certainty, Tex, and two probables, A-Rod and Damon.
As for the farm systems’ depth, and young talent, there’s no question Boston exceeds the Yankees by leaps and bounds.
The Red Sox rotation has no more questions than the Yankees rotation quite frankly either. What they do have however is depth. Apart from Bucholz and Bowden, they now have Penny and Smoltz behind them. That’s like a Nine-Man rotation and very wise when you’re retailing in kid pitchers and older veterans who are injury prone.
Right now the Yankees can rely on two pitchers, Sabathia and Wang. Burnett? Hah. He’ll be on the DL list by June. I’ll be amazed if he even throws 180 innings.
Even then, after the Yankees 1-2-3, questions abound. Joba, even if healthy, will reach his innings cap by the end of July, then who fills his spot? Aceves? IPK? How many kids will it take to fill the 4th and 5th spots if they all have innings limits, huh?
The only edge the Yankees have over the Red Sux is in the pen.
“A-Rod Goofball Variety Hour”
And now, I have a new catchphrase to break out at the bar. Nice.
Labrum Surgery, yikes, that is serious. Is that worse than a full tear of the rotator cuff?
I still the Yankees need a veteran 4th starter who can provide them 200 innings.
I agree. I love depth. But I’d like to see more of it in the starting rotation. I’d save Hughes, Aceves, IPK, Coke, etc, to replace injured starters and to spell Joba once he reaches his innings caps.
ANSKY
January 13th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Manny talk … Manny talk … jeezz.
——
Anksy, while I respect your opinion on Manny, I would like to ses a better rebuttle than that.
Address the fact that Nady and Matsui are out after 1 yr. Where are we going to get OF help after this year while mainatining a winning attempt in both years and beyond?
Manny’s price isn’t dropping to 10mm but I agree he would be unhappy just like Andy is at that number.
His price may come down some but I would expect it will take close to 20mm to get him signed anywhere. If Torre and LA are in on him they must not be worried about his attitude, just his production that they witnessed first hand.
While Bostons moves may be risky, they do have some sound foundations that Theo has applied. The so called professionals all think they are the team to beat. Put Manny in our line up for the next 3 yrs and we will be that team.
Next year we can look for young or low cost replacements for pettite and damon but not this year as we move into new stadium with high expectations.
Manny in the Yankee lineup would be awesome ! With a few shrewd moves, it can be done.
How is Arod a question mark? He’s the best player on both teams and its not even close.
He’s not a question mark. He’s more of a sure thing than anybody the Red Sox put out there on a daily basis.
kill.schill(ing)
January 13th, 2009 at 10:40 am
I’d still take the Red Sux lineup to the Yankees, even with Tex.
1) Damon vs. Ellsbury—Draw or Edge Damon (if 2008 Damon, if 2007 Damon, Ellsbury)
2) Jeter vs. Pedroia— Pedroia
3) Tex vs. Drew—Tex
4) A-Rod vs. Ortiz—Edge A-Rod or Draw, if Ortiz is healthy
5) Matsui vs. Youklis—Youklis
6) Posada vs. Bay—Bay (Even if Jorge is healthy)
7) Cano vs. Lowell—(which Cano? is Lowell healthy?)
Nady/Swisher vs. Lugo/Lowrie—Draw
9) Varitek vs. Cabrera/Gardner—Draw
That’s three Boston certainties Pedroia, Youklis, Bay
And one Yankees certainty, Tex, and two probables, A-Rod and Damon.
As for the farm systems’ depth, and young talent, there’s no question Boston exceeds the Yankees by leaps and bounds.
The Red Sox rotation has no more questions than the Yankees rotation quite frankly either. What they do have however is depth. Apart from Bucholz and Bowden, they now have Penny and Smoltz behind them. That’s like a Nine-Man rotation and very wise when you’re retailing in kid pitchers and older veterans who are injury prone.
Right now the Yankees can rely on two pitchers, Sabathia and Wang. Burnett? Hah. He’ll be on the DL list by June. I’ll be amazed if he even throws 180 innings.
Even then, after the Yankees 1-2-3, questions abound. Joba, even if healthy, will reach his innings cap by the end of July, then who fills his spot? Aceves? IPK? How many kids will it take to fill the 4th and 5th spots if they all have innings limits, huh?
The only edge the Yankees have over the Red Sux is in the pen.
——
Kill, I agree 100% except the part about the pen. I think Pap vs Mo is a draw at best for us in 09. The rest of the pen is also debatable and if Smoltz ends up in the pen as MLB suggested last night than the Sox will have a better pen. They already have Masterson, Okajima, Delcarmen, Ramirez,Saito. I think their pen is every bit as good as ours and maybe better.
We still have work to do to catch them.
Here we go again… trade for this guy, sign that guy, it can be done…
Has anyone ever posted a lineup of all the players the posters here say we should bring in? (It probably would take Dave to do it because it would be a LONG list!) Would anyone in any way recognize this team as the Yankees?
Unfortunately for them, Derek Lowe is now off the market too.
I also don’t see how you put Pedroia over Jeter. They are at worst (from the Yankees perspective) a draw.
Also, if Matsui comes back healthy he is closer to Youkilis than you might want to acknowledge. Matsui is a close to .300 hitter, 100 RBI, and 20- 25 hr.
Here is the #1 reason why Red Sox-Yankee comparisions tend to be a waste of time on Yankee blogs.
Every Red Sox question mark is answered in the affirmative by Yankee fans, while every Yankee question mark is answered in the negative by the same Yankee fans.
You can go up and down the Red Sox roster and see major question marks.
The health of Beckett, Wakefield, Smoltz, Saito, Penny and yes, even Dice-K. How will Lester respond to his innings o overload of last year.
If the Red Sox were comfortable about their lineup, they wouldn’t have offered Mark Teixeira the largest contract in the history of their franchise.
Don’t believe the party line nonsense they didn’t “need” Tex. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t have offered him that deal and put so much of their off-season into him.
They have question marks. Big one’s.
So do the Yankees. They just have fewer than they had at this time a year ago.
SJ44
January 13th, 2009 at 10:49 am
How is Arod a question mark? He’s the best player on both teams and its not even close.
He’s not a question mark. He’s more of a sure thing than anybody the Red Sox put out there on a daily basis.
—–
SJ, agreed even though many will point to the clutch.
But as I stated above, all in all I still think Boston is better on paper and we can overcome that with 2 moves IMO.
Any deal if at all involving Nady is not likely to be done until it’s known what the outcome will be with his arbitration hearing in February and his salary will exceed the $3.35M he sits at now.
No player ever really loses in arbitration.
If Atlanta gives Lowe a $60MM, 4 year contract, then Andy is clearly worth more than $10MM, but less than $16MM, on a one year deal.
If the Lowe deal gets done at that price, look for the Yanks and Andy to come to an agreement around $12MM.
Lowe got 60M/4yrs from Atlanta.
Is Lowe worth more than Andy?
five iron from fenway
January 13th, 2009 at 10:53 am
I also don’t see how you put Pedroia over Jeter. They are at worst (from the Yankees perspective) a draw.
Also, if Matsui comes back healthy he is closer to Youkilis than you might want to acknowledge. Matsui is a close to .300 hitter, 100 RBI, and 20- 25 hr.
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Five Iron, the reality is that Pedroia was the MVP last year and Jeter was far from it. Don’t get me wrong as I love Jeter but the stats are the stats.
Matsui is not better than Youkilis at this point and he is a gonner after this year. That is my point in going forward.
You need to compare Matsui to Papi in which case both players are on the big down side and may not be factors for either team after this year. In a clutch though I would take big Papi over Matsui any day.
Tex vs Youkilis is the match up and I would take Tex but not by a 15mm per year difference.
DAMN YOU, YOU HAT WAVER!!!!!
kill.schill(ing)
Right now the Yankees can rely on two pitchers, Sabathia and Wang. Burnett? Hah. He’ll be on the DL list by June. I’ll be amazed if he even throws 180 innings.
Even then, after the Yankees 1-2-3, questions abound. Joba, even if healthy, will reach his innings cap by the end of July, then who fills his spot? Aceves? IPK? How many kids will it take to fill the 4th and 5th spots if they all have innings limits, huh?
The only edge the Yankees have over the Red Sux is in the pen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think your numbers might be a little off with Joba, he’s not throwing 12 inning games. If he averages 4 starts a month at 6 innings per he looks to hit his innings cap at the beginning/middle of September with a cap of 140 innings.
Pound for pound the Yankee rotation will be able to keep up with or even surpass the Red Sox rotation.
Sabathia > Beckett
Wang = Lester
Burnett > Dice-K (If Dice-K can last longer than 5 innings they’d be even)
#4 slot Clay
Both rotations have injury risks. Beckett can’t stay healthy for the life of him. Wakefield has back problems. Lester is expected to drop off a bit with the amount of innings he threw last year. Buchholz was widely inconsistent last year, and even Dice-K had a stint on the DL. To top it off, their back-ups are Smoltz and Penny. If this was 2004 I’d say they were solid but unforunately it’s 5 years later and all they have going for them if their name. Smoltz is currently being held together with bubble gum and duct tape and Penny is a huge question mark.
kill.schill(ing)—
That’s the second time (at least) you’ve posted that comparison and the second time I need to point out how completely ridiculous it is.
It seems you like to try and cherry pick the best-ever accomplishments of the Red Sawx guys to try and make a point. Ellsbury hasn’t been in the game to even be compared with Damon. Lugo/Lowrie equal to Nady/Swisher is laughable and David Ortiz will NEVER be better than Alex Rodriguez. Ortiz has had three seasons of .300, 30, 100… ARod has 8. You even go with Cabrera/Gardner in CF to try and make your erroneous point by proposing the weakest Yankees lineup.
Keep trying
The real question isn’t Jeter’s ability it’s where he will fit when his contract expires and how much money will they pay him? $20 mill a year? We aren’t knocking Jeter’s worth to this team, but a step slower defesnively at SS, batting .300 with limited power, not much in the way of walks which have been in decline over the years. His speed and steals are down. This is simple. I think Jeter will have a good year and bounce back year this year, but going forward he won’t be getting better and a player of that caliber cannot be overpaid and fielding a position he will no longer be able to field, that’s quite simple. And you certainly can trade in this environment to help teams economically and land you a Tulowitski in another year or more and make that move. Yankees have the talent and will have the money. It may require talent and taking on another contract the Rockies want to lose, but maybe it works. The Yankees certainly don’t have any infielders close to being major league prospects. So not saying make that move now at all. I believe they are substantially better for next season and don’t need to do anything other than solidify that #5 starter. They really need to figure out if Cano is the future of this franchise. Even a flip of Cano at short and Jeter and 3nd might be odd or make sense. Or Cano at third, Arod back at short and Jeter at 2nd. We don’t know until then, but what we do know is with Tex on board, plugging Jeter or Posada or someone else overthere in the downside of their careers won’t happen so eventually it will need to be address.
whoa weird… it was supposed to say
#4 slot (less than) Wakefield… we dont currently have a no. 4 slotted.
Joba (greater than) Clay
kill.schill(ing) -
You gotta give ARod the edge over Ortiz. Even if healthy. Ortiz has what, one year maybe two where he’s matched ARod’s production. ARod blows him away the rest of the years.
YankeeRay-
IMO any reasonable projection system would show that, right now, the Yanks are clearly better than the Sox or the Rays on paper. CHONE does now, and I’m reasonably confident PECOTA would as well.
The Sox have more variability in outcome because of the Smoltz, Penny and Saito gambles, but even so IMO the Yanks are clearly better, even if they do not make another move.
What Lowe gets paid has nothing to do with what Pettite’s worth. He’s only worth what someone wants to pay him… no more and no less. Comparing contracts to define “worth” is pointless, inaccurate and irrelevant.
Is Pettite “worth” half of what Sabathia gets? That would be $ 11.5 milion. Is he worth more than Wang? That would be $ 5 million. I would say the answers to those quesitons are yes and no, which makes determining a salary under the comparison model impossible.
LOL Lowe is not worth that. Andy should shop himself to Atlanta they seem like they’re into overpaying arms.
David Ortiz has likely entered his decline. He may have a decent season, but nothing like his past. His size doesn’t speak of a man whose going to age gracefully.
Without a better offer, Pettitte is “worth” what the Yankees have offered him.
Derek Lowe was always going to get more money than Andy Pettitte. His situation doesn’t affect Pettitte.
Without a better offer, Pettitte has no leverage with the Yankees.
One last thing about the “whose better” list between the Yankees and Red Sox. Until Jacoby Ellsbury can show he can play everyday, something he didn’t show last year, he isn’t in Johnny Damon’s class as a leadoff hitter.
SJ44 -
You’re so right about team comparisons done here. I have NEVER, and I mean NEVER seen one here that puts the Yankees even on par with the Sox, much less ahead. And it’s because of just what you said – every question mark for the Sox goes away, and every question mark for the Yankees stays or becomes worse.
Fortunately (and sometimes unfortunately) the games is played on the field and not on paper or on the blogs.
“Every Red Sox question mark is answered in the affirmative by Yankee fans, while every Yankee question mark is answered in the negative by the same Yankee fans.”
Totally agree. I swear over the last five year each teams fan base has flipped mentality.
Arod-Papi a wash??? Really?
Ellsbury looks to be over hyped, Tek is not their C yet and if he is, his bat looks dead at best, Mike Lowell is coming off the same surgery as my grandmother. Drew is hurt every year and Jason Bay is a good, not great, not Manny, hitter, that strikes out a ton.
I will never discount the Sox, but I cannot agree that lineup, on paper, is better the NYY.
And Damon has the edge over Ellsbury as well. That makes the line-ups a push and a good possibility of a win for the Yanks if Swisher bounces back.
Jeter was dealing with a wrist injury for a good part of last year.
For Matsui it is for 2009 only and only in the field. It seems Matsui will only be DH this year.
Sorry – Matsui only batting.
So I’m bored here
Anybody have any Rickey being Rickey jokes ?
(Rickey Henderson)
I’ll start.
When the teacher called on Rickey in 3rd grade he answered the question first by saying ‘You may speak to Rickey’
My, My to infer that Ortiz is even remotely comparable to Arod! Designer drugs have their place I guess.
The only area of the game where the Sox are better then the Yankees is defense.
Many people killed the yankees for signing AJ Burnett for 82M arguing that he was being grossly overpaid and that other free agent pitchers would be better values.
Ben Sheets was the hot name for many yankee fans who assumed sheets health really wasn’t that much of an issue. He hasn’t gotten one offer.
Then we heard how the Yankees had gotten fleeced because the Mets were going to get Lowe for 3yrs/36M.
And what happens – Lowe winds up getting 60M for 4 years. That’s very close to the same AAV Burnett got. Burnett got one more year but Lowe’s contract will also end when he is 40.
Strange how the mets offer 3/36 and then the Braves go to 4/60. They didn’t offer 3/40. Or 3/45 despite reports saying the mets wouldn’t go any higher.
Where are all of the jokes and complaints about Atlanta “bidding against themselves” as we always here with the yanks?
Functionally there’s likely little benefit of a 4 year deal for a 36 year old who has been in good health vs. a 5 year deal for a 31 year old who has had TJ surgery in the past. Given Lowe’s age and that 4th year I think the risks become much more similar. Lowe on a 3 year deal may have been a different story. But he wound up with a 4 year deal at big money.
You can argue that you prefer Lowe as a pitcher to Burnett. But the yankees clearly liked Burnett and went out and made an offer to make sure they would get the arm they evaluated as the second best on the market instead of settling for Lowe.
Lowe’s signing at 4/60 shows that Burnett at 5/82 was roughly the going market rate for a starter on the level below CC.
kill shilling-
pedroia over jeter?
jeter at age 25 had the best year of his career .349 avg,24 hr,102 rbis,134 runs, .990 ops
pedroia at age 25- .326,83 rbis, 17 hr, 118 runs .869ops
the above may be pedroi’s high water mark like it was jeter’s, and i think it will be once the league adjusts and takes advantage of pedroia’s difficulty in hitting low pitches.
jeter’s off years are not that much off pedroi’s best years.
pedroia wil not get better and will likely get worse statistically now that he’s the” man” for the red sox. teams will simply not keep the brain dead practice of throwing pitches above his waist. his all out swing across the shoulders is a problem with low strikes. you can’t swing across your shoulders and then get to the low pitch with any pop.
why teams including the yankees gave him anything above the waist is a mystery to me.
i wouldn’t be surprised to see him drop down to single digits in home runs and hit .270.
assuming pedroia is going to stay at a level he’s done once is as illogical as expecting cano to hit .342 every year which he did at age 23.
Doreen,
I’ll put it another way…..
If Brian Cashman signed the following players this off-season:
1. A 42 year old pitcher coming off 5 surgeries in the last 6 years, the latest being serious shoulder surgery (Smoltz).
2. A pitcher with a history of shoulder and weight problems (Penny).
3. A 39 year old pitcher whose elbow is so bad, he has been undergoing experimental shots to try and regenerate the muscles around the elbow (Saito).
4. An OF with a serious muscular condition that prevents him from playing everyday (Baldelli).
5. Still be without a starting catcher on January 13.
While Theo Espstein signed the following:
1. CC Sabathia.
2. AJ Burnett.
3. Mark Teixeira, taking him away from the Yankees after the Yankees botched their “closing meeting” with him.
NOBODY ON THIS BLOG would be singing Brian Cashman’s praises.
In fact, the calls for his firing would be massive across the board.
Both teams have made moves. Let’s let the games play out and see how it shakes out.
CB
You can probably start expecting those rantings from other posters as soon as AJ loses his first game.
The Yankee acquisitions couldn’t have been more influential toward the improving team’s chances for a successful season.
They picked up two of the top pitchers on the market (if not THE two) and a proven stud at 1B both offensively and defensively. Tex will make the other infielders better just by being over there.
Theo has done well trying to counter, but he’s lagging here and he knows it.
You know, SJ44, when you put it that way, it REALLY shows the disconnect that is out there. Actually made me laugh!
I’m just speaking of this year Randy, and judging which of the two is likely to contribute more to their team’s lineup in 2009.
And given the choice between the two, and largely because of Jeter’s age, I think Pedroia is now and will be in 2009 the more productive player.
I agree with you. When their respective careers are done, I imagine conventional wisdom, and the stats, will regard Jeter the superior player.
“NOBODY ON THIS BLOG would be singing Brian Cashman’s praises.”
well said sj. it is curious what the red sox are doing. i understood the throw- enough -at the- wall- and- something- will -stick strategy the red sox have used before( it’s how ortiz emerged), but 5 million for smoltz guaranteed. 5 million is a lot considering the risk that he may not pitch at all.
if the red sox don’t make some strong addition to the team either through free agency or trades before the season starts, i think it means that all is not well financially with john henry.
i’ve heard it said that the red sox are independent of henry’s fortune. i don’t believe it. he might be down to his last 500 million or less at this point when at one point he was in the 2 billion range. that has to have an effect.
whatever it is ,the yankees are much improved and i think are the clear favorites to win the division as the teams are now constructed. with my history of criticizing cashman’s moves, i don’t say that lightly. this yankee team is looking pretty good.
This site makes for great debate and as has been the case for 100 years between the sox and yankees.
Many funny analogies today.
Pedroia will only get worse? He’s in his second year.
Papi vs Arod, that is not the matchup.
While I do think the Sox are still ahead of us until we pass them in the standings and not on paper, I don’t think we are far off.
I do think their bullpen could potentially be better.
I agree with Tom in that their defense is better though we made a great move with Tex to close that gap. Their team speed may also be better.
Their starting rotation is close with ours and with a healthy Wang we could be better along with the addition of Pettite.
All in all it is close and will be a great battle again with them and the Rays.
My whole thing is I want Manny to throw the haymaker at them.
If for no other reason I want to watch their fans when Tex, Arod and Manny come to bat in succession.
That would make my MLB package “priceless”.
Nice post. Derek Jeter will make 3000 hits soon. Can’t wait for that.
“but 5 million for smoltz guaranteed. 5 million is a lot considering the risk that he may not pitch at all. ”
At the contract Smoltz signed with the Sox he’s essentially being paid at the same rate he was with Atlanta BEFORE the injury.
That’s why Atlanta balked. Smoltz won’t make the same amount of money as he won’t start pitching until June.
But if the starts throwing in June and is able to come back he’ll make as much from June 09 – Sept 09 as he did in June 08 – Sept 08 on the contract he signed before hurting his shoulder.
And that’s with no guarantees as to the quality of innings he’s able to throw given the injury even if he’s healthy enough to return to the 25 man roster.
I agree with you. When their respective careers are done, I imagine conventional wisdom, and the stats, will regard Jeter the superior player.
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That’s the understatement of the year…
I’m one who happens to disagree with the whole Derek Jeter changing positions idea. I know he’s not a good SS, but he’s passable. I think he’s one of the few who could spend his entire career as a SS, depending on how much longer that career goes. In my opinion, if he can stay healthy, he has 5 more years at SS. Depending on the team, he might start splitting more time at DH, but I can’t see him playing another position. Call it fan bias, but I think he’s going to pull like a Craig Biggio and play the middle infield at 40+. Last year was a tough one for Derek because of the hand and quad injuries, so I want to see how he bounces back from that first. He’s managed to stay relatively healthy over his career. He’s always played through minor injuries, but this year was a pretty rough one for him to play through.
Good post, though. I don’t mind that Derek Jeter’s life dominates mine.
This is one of the most enjoyable pieces I’ve read in a while. Your points are not only spot on, but funny as hell. I can’t believe how quickly Jeter’s career is blazing past us. Preparing for the eventual departure of Jeter from the game is like each of us accepting our eventual demise as part of the human condition. When Mattingly passed the torch after the ‘95 season, I didn’t think anyone could represent the franchise the way he had…But Jeter has done so with dignity and class. We can only hope that there will be someone to accept that responsibility when the time comes for Jeter to say goodbye.
This has been my favorite guest post so far… deffinitly!
CB, good post on Burnett as usual. I am a big fan of his despite his injury past. I believe and hope that his injuries have been fixed to the point that he can be the dominant pitcher that we witnessed last season against us.
I watched him a lot with the Marlins when he fist came up and I watched his no hitter game against the Giants.
He is nasty and hopefully as he stated he has learned to be a better pitcher over the last 2 seasons.
A good signing compared to Lowe who I was totally against signing.
kill shilling-
teams are inexplicably slow to react to young hitters sometimes. watching cano a lot, we all knew when he was hitting .342 that there was little reason to throw him a strike. but opposing teams did.
watching pedroia a lot being in nesn territory, i can tell you he doesn’t drive the low pitch. he has a very unusual swing in that he swings across his shoulders at anything above his waist . he lowers his whole body down to get to the waist high pitch. the fact that that’s unusual may mean it takes longer for teams to figure out how to pitch to him, but i think you will see him having to deal with a steady diet of low, lower and lowest pitches in 2009 .
if anyone has access to his happy zones stats, i think you’ll see he annihilates ball above his waist and is not so good below. my prediction is that pedroia does not have as good a year as 2008 ever again.
Randy l
good analysis of Pedroia and his swing.
Pitchers and pitching coaches will adapt. But it’s also possible Pedroia will too. Will be interesting to see.
“Pedroia will only get worse? He’s in his second year.”
take a look at cano’s second year, he hit .342. is he going to see that again?
it’s not unusual for a player to have his best year ever before age 26. it happens.
i really think that pedroia benefitted from being the”little brother” thing and that other teams would almost feel like they were picking on the little kid if they went after him. he was never thrown at the way youkillis was. let’s see what happens when he is. it’ll happen just like it happened to jeter.
do you think jeter was thrown at during his second year the way he is now and at his peak? i don’t think so. pedroia will be pitched differently in year three just like cano was.
maybe i’m wrong that he won’t be able to adjust to the low swing without loosing his pop, but that’s what i think is going to happen.
he may hit for a high average if he adjusts to the low pitch, but i don’t think you’ll see the surprising power numbers he had for his size. he gets that from swinging all out all the time across his shoulders which is unique for a major league swing. i don’t think anyone else swings like that.
oh, by the way, pedroia really annoys me. lol.
randy l
January 13th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
oh, by the way, pedroia really annoys me. lol.
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By the way, me too, he looks like a little rat lol.
“Say no to drugs? You’re the one lobbying for Manny Ramirez.”
post of the day
great comments though. glad i got the time to read some of them today…
i was surprised Harold Reynolds thinks the Red Sox have a better ‘pen on whichever mlb network show that was. He compared ours and their rotation, saying they’re both great. But it didn’t seem like he was too impressed with our pen, saying it is subpar unless we put Joba back there :\
saucy, harold reynolds also said that smoltz has an advantage, since he’s moving from the nl to the al and none of the al hitters have seen him. when in fact, nl pitchers moving to the al (esp. the al east) tend to go up in era. ditto for penny, by the way.
but i do love the new mlb network. i could watch the epic moments show over and over agin. in fact, i do!
I think this post brought a lot of what Yankee fans are thinking to the forefront. Jeter is still our leader on and off the field, but the skills are slowly diminishing. Id rather have him that Jose Reyes anyday though
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