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At what point is rotation depth a concern?

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 14, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

At the moment, here are the starting pitchers with more than a game or two of major-league experience the Yankees have available to them:

CC Sabathia, A.J.Burnett, Chien-Ming Wang, Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy, Alfredo Aceves, Jason Johnson, Dan Giese, Kei Igawa.

Here is who the Red Sox have:

Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Tim Wakefield, Brad Penny, John Smoltz, Clay Buchholz, Justin Masterson.

Unless you’re named Sully and say “wicked” a lot, you probably like Sabathia, Burnett, Wang and Chamberlain better than Beckett, Lester, Matsuzaka and Wakefield. It’s close, but the Yankees have an edge.

But Penny, Smoltz, Masterson and Buchholz are much, much better options than Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves and the assorted dreck the Yankees have lined up.

The LoHud Yankees Blog charter states “We believe Phil Hughes will stay healthy and realize his vast potential as a starting pitcher.” But facts are facts. He has a 5.15 ERA and a 1.416 WHIP in 21 starts.

It’s not acceptable for a contending team to go into the season with four good starters and hold a contest for the fifth spot. You need to have an adequate No. 5 and decent options beyond that. Or do you believe that Sabathia, Burnett, Wang and Chamberlain will all stay healthy for six months?

Sign Andy Pettitte and the problem is solved. We wrote last week that one side had to blink. But so far nobody has. If not Pettitte, then somebody else.

There are answers out there. Brian Cashman has trade chips. There are free agents who are becoming more desperate as every day passes. When you look at those two lists of starters, it’s fairly evident that the Yankees could still use a little help.

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539 Responses to “At what point is rotation depth a concern?”

  1. David January 14th, 2009 at 10:18 am

    Nonsense. At some point you have to give your kids a shot. Blocking them does nothing but reinforce the idea that the Yankees will never give a kid a fair chance. Give the number 5 to Hughes. The other young pitchers behind him are more than enough to fill in for injuries. The Yankees offense should be good enough to support a few spot starts by the likes of Kennedy and Aceves.

  2. swc January 14th, 2009 at 10:19 am

    I still think the Yanks are going to stealth their way in (again) and steal Perez away from the Wets. Problem solved.

  3. Guiseppe Franco January 14th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    The rotation is indeed a big concern and should be the primary focus right now.

    This is why resigning Pettitte makes all the sense in the world for both sides.

    I like Hughes as much as the next guy, but I don’t trust he’ll stay healthy for a full season yet. And he wasn’t very good last year even when he was healthy.

    Resign Petittte. It’s going to happen eventually because the Yanks would be insane to trust their youngsters to that last slot given the strength of this division.

  4. matt January 14th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    I wish Pettitte would just come back. All the money the Yankees spent cant they just meet half way and split the difference? Or load the contract with incentives? Andy wasn’t that bad last year he had a lot of games with one bad inning and with some luck would have gotten out of innings. he is a pro and knows how to pitch. 2007 he was the ace and pitched a shutout vs the Indians until the bugs came in Game 2. He still has

  5. Bill from NJ January 14th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    Just sign Sheets to a two year incentive based salary and be done with it. Boston signed two fliers in Penny & Smoltz with minimal risk financially, but with high reward; the Yanks need to do the same with Sheets.

  6. matt January 14th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    I meant to say he still has some big time pitching ahead of him.

    Giving Hughes, Kennedy and Coke one more year to develop is a good thing. They can help this year but don’t pressure them by relying on them a full a year. Give them time.

  7. Guiseppe Franco January 14th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    Screw Oliver Perez. They need someone who is consistent and will throw strikes.

    Besides, signing that guy to a multi-year deal for big money is a disaster waiting to happen.

    The safest option is often the smartest option. They don’t need to take anymore gambles in the rotation.

  8. fan9 January 14th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    i completely agree peter. great point. if anything the yanks should take a flier on a randy wolf, freddy garcia, or john leiber to shore up the rotation. otherwise, they need to go back to pettite and up their offer. we can’t go into camp realistically expecting hughes, aceves, and co. to be the fifth starter. better to have some of those guys as long men, or in the minors getting the work they need. injuries will almost certainly happen(i’m looking at your burnett and joba) and then where are we, with ponson and rasner making 15 starts again. that’s just not a receipe for a pennant winner.

  9. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    I love the health argument. Sure Burnett is injury concern, Wang had a freak foot injury, and Joba had tendinitis.

    Of the pitchers you listed for boston, 6 spent time on the DL last year, two have as many starts as Kennedy and Hughes. Clay Buchholz is 5-10 career with an ERA over 5.5 (Hughes numbers are better), Masterson started as many games as Ian Kennedy, and was moved to the pen.

    Sorry, not convinced Boston has more depth.

  10. 23forever January 14th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    Was about Phil Coke? He should be given a chance to compete for the 5th spot in the rotation.

  11. Stephen January 14th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    I agree about Pettitte.

    Jeez, Cash…just give him $12MM so Andy saves some face and signs already. $16MM is too much, but the Yanks shouldn’t lose him over an extra $2MM.

  12. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    I hope Andy will sign…just really unsure what the real hold up is…we neeed to sign him, we don’t give up a draft pick and Andy would give us a great rotation…I don’t really like any of the other option…

    Yes I still think we need Manny.

  13. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 10:29 am

    The Pettitte situation is Andy being Andy.

    This is certainly not the first time he has acted like a little girl who was just dumped by her boyfriend in high school. Did it to the Yankees and Houston, and now the Yankees again.

    Pettitte would work as usual in the rotation, but this time he may have done some irreversable damage with the team.

  14. abcd January 14th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    moose won 20 games for us. so let’s say cc replaces him.

    we then get wang back…added burnett and hopefully 150 innings out of joba.

    that’s a CLEAR upgrade from last season. if that was the rotation last year, yanks make the playoffs despite the subpar year of the offense.

    we’ll be ok if we don’t make another move and let a bunch of guys battle it out for the 5th spot in the rotation.

    having someone else is fine…and i’m sure cashman will sign someone else, but it’s not a dire necessity.

  15. David January 14th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    The Yankees should not give Andy a penny over 6 million. He was a bad pitcher at the end of last year. Old players just get older. Young players get better. We have a bunch of young arms for that last spot.

  16. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    “Yes I still think we need Manny.”

    Tim, I see that you still want me to hit you over the head with a rolled up newspaper. :P

    Say no to Manny!

  17. Guiseppe Franco January 14th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Pettitte would work as usual in the rotation, but this time he may have done some irreversable damage with the team.

    ——————–

    That’s nonsense. Everyone knows this is a business. Pettitte signs and everything is well in Yankeeland again.

    It won’t have any lasting effect on the Yanks at all.

  18. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    6 is pushing it a bit. $10M by Yankee standards was fair. Forget how he did at the end of the year, he was hurt and playing through it because we had no one else. Had everyone been healthy, Pettitte may have been shut down in September.

  19. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    “Pettitte would work as usual in the rotation, but this time he may have done some irreversable damage with the team.”

    Cash and the Steins may be ticked, but his teammates wouldn’t be. In his position, they’d be doing the same thing – trying to get as much money as they can. If Andy comes back and helps contribute to title #27, trust me – no one will even remember the controversy.

  20. Guiseppe Franco January 14th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Young players get better. We have a bunch of young arms for that last spot.

    ———-

    Make that three spots (Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy) as soon as Burnett goes on the DL with a sore shoulder/elbow.

    So what was once a formidable rotation isn’t so scary anymore.

  21. abcd January 14th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    tex’s new best friend – i agree. not sure what makes boston’s end of rotation guys better than ours.

  22. Bob(The Original) January 14th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    It’s not acceptable for a contending team to go into the season with four good starters and hold a contest for the fifth spot.

    ———————————————————

    I disagree.

    Leaving that 5th spot open for one of the youngsters is in my opinion the right thing to do.

    Steve Goldman had a very good blog entry on this very thing the other day.

    http://pinstripedbible.mlblogs....._to_s.html

  23. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    Laura:

    I’m just hoping…:)

  24. sunny615 January 14th, 2009 at 10:36 am

    Saying the Yanks and Pettitte should meet in the middle is assuming A) that Pettitte would want less than $16 mil and B) The Yanks are willing to go that high for a #4 pitcher. The question remains, does anyone really know if Pettitte would even accept an offer for less than $16 mil? In that Daily News article (?) that printed Pettitte’s beliefs on why he should be paid that much over the oft-injured Burnett (pitched for yankees, has playoff success, etc), it made it sound like Pettitte seemed to hold a Mussina/Pavano stance (Moose to Cashman: “I will not be paid less than Carl Pavano”). Seems ludicrous, but true. That said, Pettitte fits everything the Yankees are looking for – one year deal that allows Hughes, et al, to develop at their own pace instead of what’s dictated by needs of the major league club (having tasted the bitter fruit of that failure in 08), a solid innings eater, and a proven pitcher that can handle the pressure cooker that is NY and thrives in it. $6 mil is a LOT of money (to me), but in this case, if it solves the Yankees problem, I am starting to think that they should just suck it up for one year and ignore their philosophy of pay market value, pay the guy and bridge the gap to the future. The cost is only money – of which the Yankees have plenty of. If you have to clear some room, trade Nady and give Pettitte what he’s asking for. It’s the simplest (I didn’t say best) answer. I know there are smarter people out there than me, but at this point, the only thing the Yankees lose is money.

  25. Doreen January 14th, 2009 at 10:36 am

    I see as many question marks for Boston as I do for NY. In both cases, everything has to go well for the second tier in order for there to be true depth. In the case of the Yankees’ second tier, the question is more one of experience (though Hughes does have the lingering questions about his ability to stay healthy), while with the Boston second tier, while more experience-heavy those with the most experience are also those with biggest health questions.

    But, the Yankees need a veteran for that last spot in the rotation. I hope it’s Pettitte, but I guess we’ll see soon enough.

  26. five iron from fenway January 14th, 2009 at 10:37 am

    Tex – Your point about rotation health risk is very valid.

    Hughes is roughly the equivalent of Bucholz – very high highes followed by ignominious return to minors.

    Masterson is more like Coke to me. Masterson has a bit more experience but both performed very well out of the pen for the big club. Masterson like Kennedy put up nice numbers but has no track record. Masterson will also be in the bullpen and not the rotation.

    Smoltz will not pitch the first month to month and a half. Coming back after the age of 40 from shoulder surgery. I would take a younger healthier pitcher. Although Smoltz is a proven performer and “Boston Bulldog.”

    Penny – same as Smoltz. Is he Penny of a few years ago or Colon of last year.

    The names at the back end of Boston’s rotation are sexier but it does not necessarily make them better in 2009.

  27. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    People, it’s just a negotiation.

    IMO Andy will come down from $16MM, and the Yanks will come up from $10MM.

    If Andy’s like most people he wants to come down as little as possible, and if the Yanks are like most businesses they want to go up as little as possible.

    The Lowe deal is indicative of Andy’s “true” value and will make it harder for both Andy and the Yanks to hold to their stated positions.

    All this stuff you hear is IMO mostly posturing by the two sides. The deal makes too much sense not to get done.

  28. Patrick January 14th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    randy RE: Larkin vs Jeter,

    Good point bringing up Barry Larkin. Jeter and Larkin’s offensive numbers are pretty similar Larkin: .295/.371/.444 vs Jeter: .316/.387/.458

    These are rate statistics which aren’t the same as measuring the number of hits, rbis, hr’s, runs, total bases, etc.

    Jeter has a slight edge in rate stats like OPS+, avg, OBP, SLG and he also has a slight edge in the countable stats like those you mention. I don’t see much of a discrepancy in the OPS+ between the two players.

    Also, Jeter has higher measurables because he has had more at-bats in his career than Larkin did. Jeter averages 655 AB’s a year whereas Larkin only averaged 590.

    Larkin played from age 22 to 40 and Jeter has played from age 21 to 34. Jeter already has an edge in the numbers, it will be pretty impressive to compare the two in 5 or 6 yeras when Jeter is done.

  29. Bob(The Original) January 14th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Oh, and another gem from Carp in our argument over Rice. Why is it that some of these guys refuse to acknowledge that OBP is by far batter stat than AVG?

    “I still think batting average is the best statistic in sports, and that every other sport tries to find something equal to BA. It’s so pure. You go to the plate X number of times and you succeed X number of times and this is your average.”

    http://faceoff.lohudblogs.com/.....whos-next/

  30. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Tim: “I’m just hoping…:)”

    Tell me where you live so I can come and beat the hope out of ya!

    :)

  31. FTT January 14th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Ben sheets is the way to go. Yes he does and probably will get hurt, but when sheets is healthy he is a top 10-15 pitcher in this league. You would be getting him on the cheap and there is so much more reward then risk because he wouldnt be making more then 6-8 million in base salary. you give him an incentive based deal for one year with a vesting option based on innings (lets say 180 innings). He is getting cheaper by the day and if he could give you 15 good quality starts he is worth the 6 or 7 million dollars. This is the yankees and it is just money for only 1 year. You have Hughes in AAA or long relief for one more year then bring him up for the big time, but with all the money the yankees have spent, another 6 million for another ace that would be the 5th starter is silly not to do. You go into the season thinking sheets isnt going to give you anything but if he can stay healthy it would be a nice surprise. I dont want sidney ponson pitching again in june and july…

  32. PittsburghYankeeFan January 14th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    This is a moot point. Pettitte should sign with the Yankees, and he likely will, within the next week. $12-13 million with incentives.

    Boston’s rotation looks like a bad episode of “House.” It looks a lot like the Yankee pitching staffs of the 2003-2007 period.

  33. ellen January 14th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    I agree with Wave that the Pettitte deal makes too much sense not to get done. Other than posturing and stubbornness, though, I have no explanation for why it hasn’t happened already. Does the deal with Pettitte become more likely as time marches on toward spring training, or more unlikely?

  34. Donnie Baseball 23 January 14th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Pete: I think Andy would be the better fit for us right now, however no one is blinking and Maybe the Yanks have to look else where. Throw the idea to Sheets that we will give him 2 years at around say 9 mil each with some clause in there that he can earn more $$ say if he makes 30 starts throws 200 innings etc. Make the 3rd year an opition year for us. See if this will get Andy to take are 10 mil if not then sign Sheets. Also, I like Perez hes 26 years old and who knows what the plan is for Joba but this could open the door for him to maybe close at some point. I still like Sheets though.

  35. emac2 January 14th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    Another morning drama in Yankee land!

    How can a contending team possible have a competition between guys like Hughes, Kennedy and Aceves for the 5th starter slot????

    Why look at a prospects history when you can find a period when they didn’t make adjustments in less then 30 days.

    Hanley Ramirez went through a month with one or two hits during his initial adjustment. It’s tough to see that a Yankee fans reaction would have been to trade him because he isn’t good enough for the number 9 hole with that double digit BA for more than a month.

    Hughes and Kennedy have been amazing in their minor league careers. prefering an injured Smoltz and Penny because the kids go through adjustments like almost everyone else in the game is very short sighted and, quite frankly, cowardly. I think with the Yankees resourses we can go into the season with only 8-10 starters.

  36. Tarheelyank January 14th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    If plan B is Hughes, how do you slot the two innings challenged starters? Back to back (#4 and #5) Would not be a good choice, for obvious bullpen reasons.

    So how would you slot them? CC-Joba-AJ-Wang-Hughes?

  37. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    “Boston’s rotation looks like a bad episode of “House.” It looks a lot like the Yankee pitching staffs of the 2003-2007 period.”

    Are you comparing John Smoltz and Brad Penny to Darrel Rasner and Sidney Ponson?

  38. Doreen January 14th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    Are you certain Sheets’ price is going down? I would think, the way Boston has been doing things, that if Sheets’ price was down, they’d have signed him, too.

    For so many teams to be basically ignoring the guy, it’s fairly evident his medicals are very scary AND he’s too expensive.

  39. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    No question the Yankees need another veteran starting pitcher. Pettitte would be ideal. However, that seems unlikely unless he gets real about his asking price.

    If he does, great move for both sides. If he doesn’t, Nady is a chip they could play to find a starter.

    I agree with Tex re: the “injury” questions.

    It cracks me up at how so many people in the media and fan base believe AJ Burnett is some pane of glass who will crack at the least bit of contact.

    Yet, a 42 year old pitcher who has had 5 surgeries in the last 6 years, the last being serious shoulder surgery (Smoltz), is a sure thing.

    I just don’t understand that logic.

    The Red Sox have just as many, perhaps more, injury questions among their pitchers than the Yankees at the present time.

    Beckett has been hurt more than Burnett the last 3 years. Wakefield has a chronic back condition. Dice-K is pitching in the WBC and he has had injury issues. Smoltz, Saito and Penny are huge question marks.

    I agree the Yankees have question marks. However, I can’t believe the same people who proclaim the Yankees have “injury questions” among their pitching staff also give Red Sox pitchers, with more serious injury issues than Yankee pitchers, clean bills of health.

    That defies any logic when discussing the two teams at the present time.

  40. Bill from NJ January 14th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    FTT, I agree (post #5 from top).

  41. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    Maybe Pettitte is just waiting for the Yanks to trade Nady and free up some payroll space?

  42. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    I feel the last pieces the Yanks need are Pettite, Sheets and Manny…if this happens start ordering WS tickets…

  43. five iron from fenway January 14th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Interesting point about slotting. But, you have to remember that in CC, AJ and Wang when they are healthy all go very deep into games. I think replacement level did some analysis on this (and perhaps CB can comment as well)but the Yankee overall pitching staff is helped dramatically by not only the quality of the pitchers they picked up in AJ and CC, and in the return of Wang, but also in the fact that they all pitch so deeply in the games saving the bullpen.

  44. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    ellen, it’s quite possible that prior to the Lowe signing the Yanks were unsure of Pettitte’s value. Had Lowe signed with the Mets and what they were reported to offer (approximately $12MM per year for 3 years), then the Yanks’ current offer to Andy would have been about right. There are other possible explanations but this one seems very reasonable.

    Once Lowe signed, though, it’s pretty clear IMO where the range of values for Andy lies, which is somewhere under $15MM a year but north of the offer the Yanks have on the table.

    So my guess is they get a deal done relatively soon.

  45. Vincent January 14th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    Pete,

    What we need is a number 4 starter not a number 5–Joba is the number 5 because it will be easier to skip his turn this way.

    At the same time what is wrong with giving Aceves a chance? If he doesn’t work out they can make a trade mid-season or bring someone else up. You don’t need a brand name you just need someone serviceable to not blow out the bullpen.

    I agree that counting on Hughes would be foolish but tehre are other guys. Shouldn’t the Yanks see what they have?

  46. S.A.-Brian "The Ninja" Cashman: Showing free agents lots of love January 14th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    I would love to have Andy back..but for 10 million.

  47. SteveB January 14th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    I think when all is said & done, Pettite will be back. If he really had a better offer, he’d be gone by now. Cashman will make it a little sweeter and Andy will get little nervous. After all, with each new day there will be one less free agent on the market, so Andy is losing negotiating leverage too.

    As for the offer, I think Cashman’s $10 million is very reasonable. But that said I think the 200 quality innings Andy can give us as a #4 starter is literally the final piece of the puzzle for the Yankees in 2009 to make it all the way through the postseason. As a 1-yr deal, I go for Andy, overpay a little and put a better product on the field. Aren’t we the “New York Yankees”? We can afford whoever we want. Let Hughes spend a whole, complete season in Scranton. He’s so young still, and he’s so talented– he’ll be back, & better off for the experience.

    And let’s not forget, we already have 1 pitcher whose innings will be limited (Joba). Do we want to hamstring Girardi with 2 pitchers on the active roster like that? Hughes will have his 2009 innings monitored too.

  48. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    “Maybe Pettitte is just waiting for the Yanks to trade Nady and free up some payroll space?”

    Perhaps. The truth is, we don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes. All we know is that this situation needs to get resolved and quickly. Frankly, I’m tired of talking about it.

  49. Bill from NJ January 14th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    Ok, so Tim Clougher is in fantasy land.

  50. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 10:50 am

    Bill from NJ:

    I know..:)

  51. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Wave Your Hat:

    I would agree with that, Yanks will get Andy at 13mill.

  52. Doreen January 14th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    I think if the Yankees think their bullpen is very strong, they could be tempted to go with a prospect in the last open rotation spot. I know it didn’t work out, but that’s what they were going to do last season if Kennedy/Hughes had worked out – rely on the bullpen to cover the innings limits.

  53. rmel January 14th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    Pete, I agree with you to a point. If we have the chips and can get a good starter in return we should do it. That would lead to some of the kids remaining in AAA to develop. Giving Andy the money just because he is Andy is not a good reason for me. He struggled the 2nd half….Its time to move on.

  54. five iron from fenway January 14th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Tim – Perhaps we can trade Ian Kennedy for Alberto Pujols and the DH him.

  55. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 10:53 am

    Doreen:

    After last year, I don’t think the Yanks are done with pitching yet, they want that to be a big strength this year evident already in there moves…I think it will be Andy and 1 other…

  56. Yankees 'N More January 14th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    Am I the only guy who saw Pettitte pitch down the stretch last season???

    He was AWFUL… Not mediocre… Not bad… Ian-Kennedy AWFUL!

    Am I the only one who noticed Pettitte kept insisting he was healthy until his horrific stretch (and the season) was all but over. Only then does he come up with this shoulder injury… A shoulder injury TWO MRI’s never found.

    In 2008, Pettitte looked like an old man who wore down to the point of worthless the last two months of the season… He went through one stretch where he won ONE GAME in TEN STARTS!

    THAT’S what we are desperate to install in the five-hole???

    I’d rather see what Aceves and/or Hughes can do.

    If they don’t work, I’m reasonably sure the Yankees can find another Andy Pettitte on the trade market to fill in #5 by the time push comes to shove… And probably for less than $10 million.

  57. YankeeRay January 14th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    Repost from previous thread

    YankeeRay
    January 14th, 2009 at 10:52 am
    Brad Pitt’s better-looking brother
    January 14th, 2009 at 10:44 am
    Yankee Ray
    lol. All you need to do that’s important in typing class is to be able to type their phone numbers quickly I think.
    You still coaching, btw? and where?
    ——
    Brad, I played for the late great Doug Robins in Levittown. He died last year and is the all time winningest HS coach in NY.
    I coached with him for 2 yrs after I coached college for 2 yrs.
    Now I live in South Florida where I am coaching my sons 13 yr old travel team. We have had a travel team for 6 years now and it is a blast. Very competitive down here, much more so than where I grew up. We just went to cooperstown this summer and play in many National travel tournaments throughout Florida.
    Pretty good stuff and it’s year round.

  58. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    Wave,

    You keep saying that Derek Lowe determines Andy Pettitte’s market. That simply is not true.

    Derek Lowe was signed by the Braves to be their ACE. The Braves see him as their #1 starter this season.

    He’s getting 15 million dollars a year to be the ace of their staff. Andy Pettitte is being viewed as the #4 starter on the Yankees. The two aren’t comparable at all.

    Derek Lowe was the third best pitcher available in free agency this year. Andy Pettitte was not.

    The two aren’t comparable. Their situations are completely different.

    The fact is, the comparable contract for Pettitte right now, and the source of the two sides being far apart, is Randy Johnson’s deal with the Giants.

    One year, 8 million, to be the #4 starter on that team.

    It doesn’t matter how old Johnson is. What matters is his role, years, and terms of the deal.

    That’s the crux of the dispute.

    Unless the Hendricks Brothers can find a team willing to pay Andy more money, there is no middle ground here from the Yankees side.

    They aren’t bidding against themselves. If they wanted to do that, they would have signed him already.

  59. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    For all the critics, this is a blog…not GM central unless some of you are in disguise…

    Nothing I have mentioned is impossible, however some of the ridiculous trades mentioned aren’t worth a reply…

  60. Artie A January 14th, 2009 at 10:57 am

    Every time I hear a Yankee official these days they are taking pride in saying that they are reducing their payroll.
    If they add Pettite for 10 million or more based on some of the latest calculations I’ve seen ,this puts them almost at same level as last year. I think the brass wants to find a new home for Nady, get him traded for some very good prospects and then you can add Petittie for 10 million and agree with what was said above about putting in some reasonable incentives such as innings that could get Andy a payday closer to what he wants.

  61. randy l January 14th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    “Larkin played from age 22 to 40 and Jeter has played from age 21 to 34. Jeter already has an edge in the numbers, it will be pretty impressive to compare the two in 5 or 6 yeras when Jeter is done.”

    thanks patrick-
    it will be interesting. if larkin is a hall of famer ( and he likely will be), then jeter should be in a special wing.

  62. Tarheelyank January 14th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    five iron from fenway

    I agree about the 3 starters going deep, which makes it possible to consider two Pitchers who have severe inning limitations. Alot to consider when it comes to slotting. Not only innings but Wangs sinker also comes to mind.

  63. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Yankees ‘N More-

    The Yanks must know Andy’s condition better than anyone. If they agreed with your assessment, do you think they would have offered him $10MM? I don’t think so.

  64. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 10:59 am

    “Perhaps. The truth is, we don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes. All we know is that this situation needs to get resolved and quickly. Frankly, I’m tired of talking about it.”

    Ditto, frankly I’m more excited to see what is done with Nady. I like hearing that we are having talks with the Braves and Mets. Though I can’t see what the Mets would have, good to use them against the Braves.

  65. FTT January 14th, 2009 at 10:59 am

    thanks Bill from NJ, all i am trying to say is that the yankees will be stupid not to get someone for the 5th spot this season. leaving a big hole like that should be a major concern for a team opening a new stadium and spending $424 million in the offseason. If you can get sheets for under $10 million a year would be a steal, and it would give you the best rotation in baseball on paper by far. You need hughes though to fill in for a injury, you can’t rely on him every 5th day. Next year might be different. As much as a love andy, this drama between both sides is the last thing the yankees need right now. Go for the knock out blow, sign sheets, keep nady, swisher and sign jose cruz to set up and you would be spending another 10 to 12 million on two players and still keeping payroll less then last season; while putting the best team possible out on the field on a day to day basis. Don’t let smoltz, penny and baldelli hurt you, keep signing smart deals to young players.

  66. blake January 14th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Take a flier on someone like sheets, we already missed the boat on signing someone like a prior to a minor league deal

  67. Neil January 14th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    No mention is made of the Rays rotation which is better than Boston’s. Far less risk. Along with the health concerns of Penny and Smoltz, Beckett is a question mark based on last year. It’s never known when Wakefield’s back will act up.
    If Boston has to deal one of either Bowden or Buchholz for catching, their young immediate help is thin.

  68. Bob(The Original) January 14th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    How much of the Yanks playing hardball with Pettitte(which I agree with) is due to what happen with the Mitchell Report fiasco?

    My hunch is that the Yanks are ticked at him about lying to them.

    I wonder if they even really want him back at all?

    I’m just tired of the yearly drama routines from either him or Clemens. It’s baseball’s version of Favre.

  69. bru January 14th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    try to trade nady for lannan from the nationals.he is 24 yrs old.a lefty,pitched 183 innings,172 hits,3.91 era & the league batted 2.52 against him.

    if not for his high walk count he would be a much better pitcher with a lower era & whip.

    we can go in many directions,pettitte,sheets,perez but why not get a decent young pitcher at a good price for a change????

    if we can add kennedy or another prospect & get maxwell,dukes or milledge that would be great.

  70. Scooter10 January 14th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    I think the boat has sailed on Petitte coming back. But I do believe we need a good 4th starter (Sheets would be great if and when the price drops). Why 4th starter you ask. Because Joba will be out 5th starter. Not necessarily from an ability/results perspetive but because he will frequently be the odd man out when we can skip someone in the rotation. If the Yanks would prefer to keep him in the rotation the entire year AND have him ready for the postseason, then they will limit his innings to 170. Figure 28 starts at 6 innings per start.

  71. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    In Andy’s defense, he was hurt and overworked last season. With the sometimes 6 man rotation this season, Pettitte will not wear out (if he plays). He had to pitch through it because he and Moose were all we had down the stretch with Joba and Wang down.

  72. cano he didnt January 14th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    even with rasner, ponson, and giese we lost a TON of games only giving up a couple runs while the offense sat and watched. Im not worried about the pitching. If the offense works and the pitching is even slightly better than last year i think we have a good chance. look how many games we did win with ponson and ras in the rotation.

  73. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Pettitte returning would make the most sense for all invloved, but Jon Heyman puts the odds at less than 50-50:

    http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....0-50-6900/

  74. FTT January 14th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    you need to put the best team out on the field on a every day basis. Sign Sheets or pettitte (sheets should be cheaper and he is younger with more upside, if healthy). Keep nady and swisher. (our offense wasnt great last year, and getting rid of one of them would make us one injury away from having melky play everyday again..). Also sign juan cruz, he is a young set up man that everyone is afraid of because of his typa A free agent status (as teams dont want to give up a draft pick) But if you sign sheets and cruz, the yankees would be giving up a 4th and 5th round pick the the brewers and dbacks instead of #1′s. You still have a cheaper payroll then last season and you have a much better product on the field that is signed and will compete for championships for years to come.

  75. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    Bob,

    I don’t think that’s playing a factor. If it was, they wouldn’t have even engaged in talks with him.

    I just think they are firm in their belief as to what his value is in the marketplace and aren’t willing to go above it. In fact, I think some people with the Yankees feel the 10 million dollar offer was above his current market value.

    Much like the Abreu situation, the Yankees assessed the marketplace and made a call. Just like the Abreu situation, at least as of right now, their call on Pettitte’s market value seems accurate.

    There are only two ways this logjam breaks:

    1. Pettitte finds a better offer to give him leverage with the Yankees.
    2. Pettitte takes the Yankees offer.

    I don’t see the Yankees adjusting their price upward. Why should they? They have the highest bid (and as of right now, the only bid) for his services.

    The ball has been in Andy’s court for a month. It still is.

    Unless he can unearth offers, I don’t see the Yankees budging on this one.

  76. Vito January 14th, 2009 at 11:07 am

    Pete is right, we need a 4th starter who is a “lock” to eat IP. Andy Pettitte is the obvious choice of whats left.

    If Nady is dealt and he stands to be paid 5 to 6 million after arbitration, then sign Pettitte for 13 mil and be done with it.

    If Pettitte is truly out/impasse then what is left?
    list courtesy of http://www.mlbtraderumors.com

    Matt Belisle (29)
    Kris Benson (33)
    Paul Byrd (38) – Type B, offered arb
    Bartolo Colon (36)
    Josh Fogg (32)
    Freddy Garcia (33)
    Jon Garland (29) – Type B, offered arb
    Tom Glavine (43)
    Charlie Haeger (25)
    Livan Hernandez (34)
    Orlando Hernandez (43)
    Chuck James (27)
    Jason Jennings (30)
    Jon Lieber (39)
    Braden Looper (34) – Type B, not offered arb
    Rodrigo Lopez (33)
    Pedro Martinez (37)
    Mark Mulder (31)
    John Parrish (31)
    Odalis Perez (32)
    Oliver Perez (27) – Type A, offered arb
    Sidney Ponson (32)
    Kenny Rogers (44)
    Curt Schilling (42)
    Ben Sheets (30) – Type A, offered arb
    Kip Wells (32)
    Randy Wolf (32) – Type B, not offered arb

    Sheets is attractive but he is also a major injury risk which defeats the purpose of finding an IP eater.

    Beyond that who on this do you trust to be that IP eating vet? Seems to me the Yanks and Pettitte need each other. Get it done at 13 million – meet half way.

  77. thegash35 January 14th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    There is no need to bring in Pettitte for what he is asking for. There’s no reason to believe that he’ll have a good season either. His ERA was above lgERA anyway last season.

    Cashman was so hot to hang onto Hughes, so it’s a waste to keep him in AAA forever. And Wang is going to be a free agent after this season right? There’s no guarantee he sticks around. You have to see what these other guys can do.

  78. Vincent January 14th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    There is no guarantee that Pettitte will stay healthy so therefore $10 mil is extremely generous. Remember, he has had arm trouble in the past.

  79. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Vito: Pettitte is easily the best option on that list.

  80. Patrick January 14th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Agree 100% with Pete’s post. I posted about this issue yesterday. Even though our top 4 are great, it is too high a risk to go into the season with both Joba and Hughes in the rotation. It is hard to manage a rotation when 2 guys are on a innings limit.

    Pettitte is nearly a must-sign in my eyes. He solves all the depth problems. He is a very safe bet to throw 200 innings out of the 4 slot in the rotation. Then it gives us Hughes, Kennedy and Aceves in the 6-8 slots. That is great depth IMO. It also gives the Yankees flexibility in the future. Pettitte will be gone in 2010 which will allow Hughes to (hopefully) work his way into the rotation.

  81. Ben K. January 14th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    But Penny, Smoltz, Masterson and Buchholz are much, much better options than Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves and the assorted dreck the Yankees have lined up.

    I don’t think they’re “much, much better options.” They’re better options, but Penny and Smoltz are huge health risks. Buchholz has been worse than Hughes so far. I think this is a big reason to sign Pettitte, but I think, Pete, that you’re overplaying the Sox’s advantage here.

  82. john January 14th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    I think the Yankees once again are playing coy. I don’t think they don’t see the potential issues, but do you need to sort this now? A John Garland cheap as a fifth starter is pretty darn good. Some of these guys will be forced to sek the money left. Garland if he needs a short term contract for $5 million at the end of the day? The Yankees have tradeable chips. They certainly aren’t going to feed into leverage other teams have. the Sox have signed old and injured names. Colon was there last year, he wasn’t exactly all that helpful and he was throwing well. You have to think a faltering Mariners team would be willing to move Bedard if need be or someone else. There is time and if Andy really wanted to go elsewhere why hasn’t he signed already then? Probably because the Dodgers don’t want to pay him, nor the Astros. $10 mill is his best offer. Just kiss up and make nice.

  83. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    Betsy, if you are here, I am watching 9 Innings From Ground Zero again – it is on right now – only because I missed the beginning. I have to say that it was one of the most emotional experiences I remember watching a television program. You cry all the way through it.

    It was also the first time I allowed myself to watch that last inning from the 2001 World Series. What hit me so much about that inning was just so how atypical Mariano was, both in his pitching and in his throwing the ball to second. It almost makes you think that that “greater force” continued to be in play. I don’t know if anyone remembers this, there was a plane crash and it was the flight that Enrique Wilson was scheduled to be on – and would have been on – had the Yankees won the World Series. Later on Mariano Rivera said that he felt the reason the Yankees lost was so that Enrique Wilson could live. And we all know that Mariano, with his profound faith in God, absolutely believed that, even if Yankee fans did not.

    It still didn’t make it any easier to watch – but boy was Mo the opposite of Mo in that inning. It really does make you wonder.

  84. Patrick January 14th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    “There are only two ways this logjam breaks:

    1. Pettitte finds a better offer to give him leverage with the Yankees.
    2. Pettitte takes the Yankees offer.”

    What about:
    3. Pettitte retires.

    That would completely flip the tables on the Yankees. Cashman might increase his offer to entice Pettitte out of retirement.

    I don’t want the Yankees to overpay Pettitte but I think they really do need him.

  85. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Patrick: Yeah, but Andy has publically stated his desire to pitch again.

    If he retires right now, there will be a lot of people that doubt his sincerity.

  86. Chris January 14th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    Buchholz has worse numbers than Hughes (5.56 ERA and 1.601 WHIP). Penny is coming off a significant injury, and an ERA over 6. Smoltz is coming off of major shoulder surgery and won’t be ready to pitch until May at the earliest. If I’m ranking my confidence in the Boston pitchers based on their performance next year, it would be: Masterson, Smoltz, Buchholz, Penny.

    That’s not a group that inspires a whole lot of confidence. It’s probably better than the group the Yankees have, but not by much.

  87. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    “Am I the only one who noticed Pettitte kept insisting he was healthy until his horrific stretch (and the season) was all but over. Only then does he come up with this shoulder injury… A shoulder injury TWO MRI’s never found.”

    His tired shoulder was reported on during the season. When asked about it, the Yankees played dumb. No one here should be surprised to learn that Andy was hurt down the stretch.

    I also have to say that I find it a bit disheartening that people are so quick to drool over Sheets (an injured, unknown commodity in our eyes) over a guy who has won 4 WS rings while in pinstripes. I’m a betting woman and I’d wager my entire yearly salary (which is quite substantial) that Andy would be the better signing.

  88. ANSKY January 14th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    You mentioned Kei Igawa. Funny, Pete.

    I believe our rotation is better than Boston’s. We have some question marks regarding health, but they have more.

    I believe Burnett will have some injuries but he’ll still do pretty good most of the time.

    I believe Beckett will go through this too, but he’ll miss more time than Burnett.

    I believe CC will show signs of wear from recent years’ high innings counts in the next couple years. That doesn’t necessarily mean surgery, but it might mean either a month or two where he’s really struggling with lack of control or velocity, a month long sore-arm slump or (worst case scenario but I hope not) a short stint on the DL at sometime in the next 3 years. But he’ll bounce back.

    I believe Dice-K will go through this too.

    I believe Smoltz will not dominate. He’ll win some and show some flashes of what he used to be, but he’s got a very big hill to climb and I don’t believe he can sustain success for a whole season. Or even most of a season. I don’t care how good he feels or says he feels now.

    I believe Pettitte & the Yanks will come to a compromise eventually. I also believe he is no longer a potential 17 game winner. Then again, I believed that about Mike Mussina one year ago. But so did everyone else. Except Mike Mussina of course.

    I believe going back-and-forth between the bullpen and the rotation does more long-term harm to Joba’s arm than the net reduction in innings prevents. Consistency of work load & rest is important, not just a formulated total at the end of the year. Pick a place for him (the rotation of course) and stick with it.

    I believe we haven’t come close to seeing what Hughes will really do. Yet. I think sometime ’10-’11 will be when he begins to establish himself as an above average pitcher, a consistent 15-18 game winner. Not in ’09, maybe in ’10, more likely in ’11.

    I believe he’s going to make it worth the wait.

    Anybody think the Sox might throw together a trade for Michael Young soon? They could us a SS and he could use a place to play SS.

  89. Knudson January 14th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    If signed, which Andy P. will show up? The 07 version, or the last half of 08 underperformer, the victim of Father Time?

  90. five iron from fenway January 14th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    I think Cashman may get creative here. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next roughly 30 days.
    Yanks have what seems like a surplus of outfielders which also means added depth and flexibility. Yanks have signed several of the top free agents without giving up anyone from the farm. Yanks have a fairly stacked farm system deep in young pitching. With a bit of a logjam of pitchers what will Cashman do with the outfield and minor league pitching depth?
    Also, it is impossible to predict seasons. The Rays were so good in part because they only used 5 starting pitchers from May on. If the Yankees or Red Sox were able to do that either might run away from the pack. What if Beckett and/or Dice K and/or Lester get injured for a good part of the season (or virtually all season like Wang) a dramatically different story. Keeping some roster flexibility to plug holes and or make trades mid-season as necessary is also very important.
    Chances are none of these teams will look exactly the same at the end of the season than they do at the start. And, it is impossible to predict how they will look.

  91. ellen January 14th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Rebecca: totally agree. If Pettitte retires, how many people will be waiting for a “goodness gracious!” moment over the summer?

  92. Patrick January 14th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Rebecca,

    Yeah I doubt he retires but what does he do if he never gets an offer over $10 mill? Will he crawl back to the Yankees and ask for the same offer? Will he take a smaller amount of money from someone else? In both cases he looks bad and his ego takes a hit. He could say “screw it, I’m retiring”

  93. bubba January 14th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    As I said before, Sheets + Hughes => 200 IP.

  94. pat January 14th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Heyman is implying the $10M for Andy is no longer on the table and short of the Yankees freeing up payroll with a Nady or Swisher trade, it will not be on the table.

    If that’s true, Cash’s desire to cut payroll is taking precedence over signing another starter and $10 or $16 million really doesn’t make much of a difference.

  95. Patrick January 14th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    “As I said before, Sheets + Hughes => 200 IP. ”

    How do you know that? BY all accounts, Sheets has a very serious injury.

  96. KennyH123 January 14th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    I think they need Pettitte, or another veteran to eat innings this year.

    Giving the 5th slot to a young kid is a nice idea, and I’m all for the youth movement, especially when it comes to pitchers. But you have to realize that the other 4 guys probably will not stay healthy. Burnett’s been on the DL 10 times in 10 years. It’s gonna happen. I don’t want to see another year of the Giese’s and Ponson’s of the world filling out our rotation.

  97. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    “As I said before, Sheets + Hughes => 200 IP.”

    Um, no. Sheets has a bad MRI and Hughes has already proven that he can’t stay healthy for an entire season. Andy Pettitte, on the other hand, has proven he can pitch 200 innings in his sleep.

  98. bru January 14th, 2009 at 11:27 am

    cashman should sign perez or trade for a pitcher.

    would it be wise to trade nady or swisher for a pitcher & maybe a cf or keep them for debth???

    you can make an argument for both but one thing is clear,the yankees need a good innings eater.

    to have hughes/acevez/etc as the # 4 & joba as the 5th would strain the pen 2 days in a row & we have no lefty wich can’t be good.

    no question that keeping nady & swisher would give us more debth but wich is more important,keeping them or getting another pitcher & or cf????

    signing pettitte or perez allows us to keep both,trading nady or swisher for a pitcher fixes the pitching problem while lowering payroll.

    offer perez 3 years/39 million & keep nady & swish.

  99. rifalcon42 January 14th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    “I also have to say that I find it a bit disheartening that people are so quick to drool over Sheets (an injured, unknown commodity in our eyes) over a guy who has won 4 WS rings while in pinstripes. I’m a betting woman and I’d wager my entire yearly salary (which is quite substantial) that Andy would be the better signing.”

    while i dont disagree w signing andy if thats the direction the yanks go in, one factor to look at is that sheets played for a god awful nl central team vsandy w the yankees. also sheets IS younger and has better stuff at this point in time than andy does

  100. Patrick January 14th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    “Hughes has already proven that he can’t stay healthy for an entire season”

    Not really. He has had two injuries which were very flukey. I don’t think he should be labeled as an “injury prone” player. That being said, even if Hughes is healthy for the whole year, he isn’t going to throw 200 innings. Pettitte is the better option this year.

  101. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    SJ44,

    We’ve been through this a hundred times. I know you disagree with me. I in return disagree with your analysis. I don’t agree with any of it, in fact.

    Value is not determined by pitching slot. If that’s the case, the Yanks overpaid for AJ. They sure are paying Cano too much for a #8 hitter – they ought to trade him and get someone they can pay less.

    But that’s not the way things work. Andy’s value is determined by (i) the marginal benefit he brings to the team signing him, whatever slot he pitches in, and (2) the price of pitchers comparable to him who have signed recently.

    Andy’s marginal benefit to the Yanks is enormous. He would allow them to let Hughes develop at a pace they seem to think is more appropriate than starting him in the majors immediately, it lets Joba pitch in the 5 slot to control his innings, it gives them a pitcher they can pretty much count on to give them 200+ innings at at least a league average performance level, who has experience in the AL East and who has succeeded there, and it lets Aceves act as a back-up if there are injuries to anyone.

    That’s a HUGE marginal benefit.

    Next, comparibles. When you need or want something, you look around and see what things like it are priced. That’s usually a good indication of what the thing you want is worth.

    Lowe is a very good indication of what Andy is worth. If Lowe was third best pitcher available, as you say, Andy is the fourth or fifth, depending on how you assess Ben Sheets. Lowe is better than Andy, but Andy surely is within 20-25% of him, if not closer. That means Andy is worth more than $10MM. It does not matter where he pitches in the rotation. The fourth pitcher pitches as often as the first.

    Andy is in fact worth a premium to his “value”, because he’s willing to pitch only a year. That lowers his overall risk, and it is valuable to the Yanks because they would like to clear the roster spot and his salary for Hughes next year.

    Andy is also presumably subject to a discount to his value, because evidently he greatly prefers to pitch in New York.

    The whole negotiation, IMO, is over the amount of discount. But we are closer to a resolution, because Lowe’s signing has provided a comp and is suggestive of where he would sign on the open market.

    This whole business of Andy not having another offer is meaningless to me because we do not have access to the truth as to what his prospect are. You may think you do, but I do not believe you do.

    Until Lowe signed with the Braves, the Mets were his highest offer. Did that mean he had no other prospects and was foolish to pass on the Mets? Evidently not.

    You seem to think Andy has no leverage in this negotiation. I think you don’t know what you are talking about. The marginal benefit he brings is huge leverage – read a lot of these comments from others here and you’ll see Andy has other kinds of leverage as well. And if he points to Lowe as a comparable salary, it will be very difficult for the Yanks to ignore it. If you think it won’t, you are mistaken.

    I know your mind is made up. Only time will tell – let’s just wait and see what happens.

  102. yankeefan23 January 14th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    I would love nothing more, and I mean nothing more than for Andy Pettite to make NOTHING this year. 0$ It’d be awesome, he’d want 16 million and end up with less than 1$. The whole year he’d sit there thinking he could be pitching in the new stadium on a championship team making 10 million dollars. He’d think to himself, wow that 10 million is better than nothing. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not sign PETTITE. We took his numbers that were inflated for steroids and pitching in the NL, and than decided to overpay even based on that. Then we did it again, amidst the scandal. Now he expects to continue collecting 16 million. Get real Pettite, you STINK. NOBODY WANTS YOU. I hope you’re reading this. Nobody wants you. Go back to your mysterious 36 million dollar offer, you desperate, cheating has been. You’ll never mean anything to the Yankees.

  103. ham fighters January 14th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    lets not get crazy here, we have young arms, we dont want to end up clogging up the system with has-beens and injury rehab guys. get one dependable guy and thats it. let the young arms provide the relief for injured starters, we need to start finding out who can do what. we have minor league and major league talent we can move at the asb if we need to replace a season ending injury to a starter.

    im also not shaking in my boots about the socks 5-8. a strong season from hughes or a failed comeback by smoltz or penney and the yankees have the better of the two groups.

  104. rifalcon42 January 14th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    trade nady/keep swisher…

  105. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    If he retires right now, there will be a lot of people that doubt his sincerity.

    As opposed to saying, i only want to pitch in new yankee stadium and money is not an issue?

    I dont think we can count on his sincerity anymore.

  106. gayle January 14th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    correct me if I am wrong but I thought Igawa was not an option as he isnt on the 40 man roster anymore.Not that I would want him anyway

  107. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    “Anybody think the Sox might throw together a trade for Michael Young soon? They could us a SS and he could use a place to play SS.”

    ANSKY, I was wondering that same question myself.

    For the immediate future I don’t think they worry about SS postion because we have such a glaring hole at the catcher position. That need has to be addressed as soon as possible.

    We are stuck with Lugo’s contract and I don’t see any teams breaking the walls down to trade for Lugo. :)

    We discussed this a little bit last night and several people said that many of the GM’s are concerned about Young’s attitude and his unwillingness to be a team player with the Rangers by refusing to play third.

  108. blake January 14th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    Well what petes post fails to take into consideration is the lineup. As far as Im concerned our lineup is superior to that of the red sox and after all this post is all about comparisons to the sox. You really have to consider we have the first solid rotation weve had in years and now were bickering about the number 5 guy. I mean we havent had a rotation with 4 solid guys in it in 4 years

  109. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    I wish there was a way, once and for all, to explain to people why Sheets is not a good option.

  110. Vito January 14th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    Good point Bubba. Wasn’t it Girardi syaing he would be happy to have Sheets for 22 starts. If Sheets can give you 20 then can we live with 12 from Hughes/kennedy/Aceves/Coke/Giese?

    I think so.

    Problem is that assumes Joba, Burnett, and Wang are all 32 start healthy (well maybe 26 or so for Joba). That same AAA crew may have to backstop the primary 4 starters as well.

  111. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    “also sheets IS younger and has better stuff at this point in time than andy does”

    When healthy, which he is not right now.

  112. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    “I wish there was a way, once and for all, to explain to people why Sheets is not a good option.”

    I know. Clearly, pointing out that he has a bad MRI isn’t doing the trick.

  113. Peter January 14th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    dunno if this has been brought up, but re: jeter moving positions and taking a pay cut in a couple of years, you gotta wonder what jeter thinks about his buddy and longtime teammate’s contract situation. if he feels the yankees are lowballing pettitte and mistreating him, that may have a negative impact on the jeter situation when his contract is up. not saying he would be right to feel that way, but you never know

  114. Patrick Bateman January 14th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Ben Sheets.

    He costs a 4th round pick and a one or two year deal.

    Problem solved

  115. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    “As opposed to saying, i only want to pitch in new yankee stadium and money is not an issue?

    I dont think we can count on his sincerity anymore.”

    I don’t hold these comments against Andy. When he said money isn’t an issue, I think he was assuming that the Yankees were going to pay him the same $$ he was making last season. If he had known that the offer was going to be for so much less, he would have said “if the money is right”.

  116. Vito January 14th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Redsox will only get Young for SS if it is in a bigger deal to also get a catcher.

  117. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Problem is that assumes Joba, Burnett, and Wang are all 32 start healthy (well maybe 26 or so for Joba). That same AAA crew may have to backstop the primary 4 starters as well.

    Wang is fine. He had a freak foot injury. He is recovered. And i disagree that Burnett has to be such a concern. Pitchers get hurt, it happens. Burnett seems to have heart through, so i hope no one tries to make the Pavano argument with Burnett.

    JOba learned last year how to be a starter in MLB. Can’t strike out everyone and expect to make it into the 6th inning. I think he will be ok. While we dont necessarily feel comfy with the kids starting the season, we feel confident they can come up and fill in when necessary in 09′.

  118. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    “Ben Sheets. He costs a 4th round pick and a one or two year deal. Problem solved”

    How do you solve the problem of him being injured?

  119. Vincent January 14th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    “JOba learned last year how to be a starter in MLB. Can’t strike out everyone and expect to make it into the 6th inning.”

    I’m not entirely sure he has learned that yet.

  120. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    I don’t hold these comments against Andy. When he said money isn’t an issue, I think he was assuming that the Yankees were going to pay him the same $$ he was making last season. If he had known that the offer was going to be for so much less, he would have said “if the money is right”
    ——-

    But that goes directly to his sincerity. He didnt say if the money is right. $10M is not chump change. Its not like they offered league minimum with a ST invite. DONT SAY MONEY DOESNT MATTER WHEN IT DOES!!! It always has with him but he never wants to admit it, but blames his agents.

  121. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    “JOba learned last year how to be a starter in MLB. Can’t strike out everyone and expect to make it into the 6th inning.”

    I’m not entirely sure he has learned that yet.

    He was going later in innings in August with lower pitch counts.

  122. BD January 14th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    There’s clearly a consensus that the Yankees could use Pettitte back for another year. He would be league-avg or better for 200+ innings.

    IMO, however, if Andy doesn’t come back, then we’re better off with Hughes et al than by just signing a warm body (like Garland, for example).

    If there’s an injury further up in the rotation, deal with it during the season via a trade.

    The thing is, Hughes is a much better pitcher than the Garlands and Byrds of the world. Even last year, his FIP was 4.34. Bill James projects a 3.29 ERA out of him.

    The issue with Hughes is the innings and his need, developmentally and from a confidence standpoint, to rack up some ML playing time without getting injured. But in terms of quality, he’s much better than the other potential #5s out there and it makes no sense to sign one of them over him.

  123. G. Love January 14th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    I’ve been harping on this since last off season. You cannot and will not go into a season with 2 innings capped starting pitchers in your rotation.

    You cannot guarantee Phil Hughes anything. He hasn’t proven anything yet as a major league pitcher outside of a few flashes and the fact that he has never pitched a healthy season.

    I’ve been hard on Cashman in the past, but I do not think he is stupid enough to give Phil Hughes the 5 spot with any sort of confidence.

    He has to re-sign Pettitte or find a veteran alternative somewhere else that can provide innings.

    Now the prospect hugger argument is “don’t block Phil!”. Well, Phil won’t be blocked because Phil has to earn the rotation spot and prove he’s healthy before a team that risks 200 million a season can hand anything over to him.

    Phil won’t be blocked. If he’s healthy and effective he will force his way to the Bronx.

    At this point though, he hasn’t earned the right to force his way anywhere other than Scranton.

    The Arizona Fall League was populated by AA type players. The fact that Phil pitched nicely there MEANS NOTHING unless you think Boston and Tampa have a AA lineup.

    I hope Andy comes back. He’s the perfect fit.

    But he’s not the only fit. There are other pitchers who can fill that slot.

    Cashman has time, but sooner or later this move needs to be made and the rotation needs to be filled with a competent pitcher.

    We’re playing in the AL Central or West. We’re in the AL East where the rotations are 5 deep with great arms for the contenders.

    Our rotation is 4 deep with a huge honking question mark.

    If you think Hughes is the answer you’re wishing and hoping and you’re willing to risk another season on the success of a kid who can’t pitch a healthy season and whose stuff last year wasn’t up to snuff and couldn’t win a game.

    I know you all think he’s cute and cuddly, but if you want the Yankees to win, he should not be the 5th starter on opening day.

    Joba should be.

    Someone else should be the #4 and hopefully it’s Andy.

  124. Vito January 14th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    Tex,
    Wang gets hurt a lot.
    2005 he missed a couple months his rookie year hurt
    2006 he was fine
    2007 he missed most of April with a late ST hamstring injury
    2008 he missed half the year on that base running incident.

    Call it freak if you want but so far he is 3 for 4 in missing time, twice missing significant amounts of time.

  125. Fan mail from some flounder January 14th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    $10 mil is absurd. Pettitte is the good ‘ole boy, aw shucks version of Clemens, a liar and a cheater. Even worse, he hides behind his bible.

    I say let him go and restore some Yankee integrity.

  126. dave January 14th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Pete,

    I have been waiting for you to make that post for weeks – so glad you finally got the chance to say out loud that the yanks depth simply is not good enough as is. sIGNING another player would block the kids is the weakest argument in this thread – since when do the yanks not have injuries in a season, since when is aj capable of staying healthy for an entire season, since when is joba able to pitch more than 150 innings in the reg season and still be ready for the postseason.

    Pete never said that boston’s starting staff is better – he simply said that it is deeper. And he is right. Coke should not be taken out of the bullpen in order to start just because the yanks want to save some money. Hughes should not be rushed to the majors because the yanks wanted to shave payroll. Kennedy has shown no sign that he is capable of starting against major league hitting at all so far. We have at least 15 expendable pitching prospects and nady who is expendable. Why not package them together for a 200 inning national league pitcher. And if the pettitte signing is being held up by a couple of mil that is absolutely ridiculous and more about pride than actual financial concerns by either side.

    But if he wants the 16 mil he made last year pettitte should take a walk. hE ISNT getting close to that anywhere – if he will take 12, we should give it to him and be done with this fiasco. If sheets will take a one year contract with 8 mil guaranteed and tremendous incentives to 15 mil with a vesting option based on performance – GIVE IT TO HIM. If burnett is worth 82 mil for his risk, certainly sheets is worth 8 mil guaranteed and one year for his. This is ridiculous – the yanks have spent over 240 mil on the rotation and now, they decide to be cheap. And cash is holding on to pitching prospects who will NEVER impact the major league club like they have golden arms.

    Time to let go of this idea of hording pitching talent for something we need. Oli perez is NOT worth even close to his current offer of 3 years and 30 mil esp in the AL so forget him! But as far as pettitte, sheets or a trade for a guy like harang is concerned or someone of comparable talent, I will take any or all of those options. The trade clears away roster spots and allows us roster flexibility so IMO, that is the best move but any of these moves would drastically improve our depth. There is no reason to weaken the pen by taking out a pitcher like Coke to try to find a fifth starter – just sign or trade for someone and be done with it already.

  127. Vincent January 14th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    “He was going later in innings in August with lower pitch counts.”

    True Tex but that is a small smaple. I think we need to see what he gives this year before we say he has learned to pitch deeper into games. One of the most frustrating things with Joba is his damn pitch counts

  128. dave January 14th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Pete, I have been waiting for you to make that post for weeks – so glad you finally got the chance to say out loud that the yanks depth simply is not good enough as is. sIGNING another player would block the kids is the weakest argument in this thread – since when do the yanks not have injuries in a season, since when is aj capable of staying healthy for an entire season, since when is joba able to pitch more than 150 innings in the reg season and still be ready for the postseason.

    Pete never said that boston’s starting staff is better – he simply said that it is deeper. And he is right. Coke should not be taken out of the bullpen in order to start just because the yanks want to save some money. Hughes should not be rushed to the majors because the yanks wanted to shave payroll. Kennedy has shown no sign that he is capable of starting against major league hitting at all so far. We have at least 15 expendable pitching prospects and nady who is expendable. Why not package them together for a 200 inning national league pitcher. And if the pettitte signing is being held up by a couple of mil that is absolutely ridiculous and more about pride than actual financial concerns by either side.

    But if he wants the 16 mil he made last year pettitte should take a walk. hE ISNT getting close to that anywhere – if he will take 12, we should give it to him and be done with this fiasco. If sheets will take a one year contract with 8 mil guaranteed and tremendous incentives to 15 mil with a vesting option based on performance – GIVE IT TO HIM. If burnett is worth 82 mil for his risk, certainly sheets is worth 8 mil guaranteed and one year for his. This is ridiculous – the yanks have spent over 240 mil on the rotation and now, they decide to be cheap. And cash is holding on to pitching prospects who will NEVER impact the major league club like they have golden arms.

    Time to let go of this idea of hording pitching talent for something we need. Oli perez is NOT worth even close to his current offer of 3 years and 30 mil esp in the AL so forget him! But as far as pettitte, sheets or a trade for a guy like harang is concerned or someone of comparable talent, I will take any or all of those options. The trade clears away roster spots and allows us roster flexibility so IMO, that is the best move but any of these moves would drastically improve our depth. There is no reason to weaken the pen by taking out a pitcher like Coke to try to find a fifth starter – just sign or trade for someone and be done with it already.

  129. bru January 14th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    just because pettitte won 4 ws rings does not make him the best option & he certainly is not the only option but is the most expensive one if he gets 16 million or close too it.

    we probably can get perez for 13 million a year,maybe less.

    i am not saying perez would be the best option but outside of his walks his numbers are way better than pettitte’s,not even close.

    going by walks & hits players get on base at almost the exact rate between the two(1.40 whip) but the league only batted 2.34 against perez,he gave up 27 less hits per innings pitched & is only 27 years old.

    if perez could get his walks under control he would be devastating.there is about 30 days left before pitchers & catchers report,something needs to happen soon & i believe it will.

    perez would be a perfect # 4 for the yankees.

  130. Patrick Bateman January 14th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    “How do you solve the problem of him being injured?”

    The reason other teams are ignoring him is because there is an injury risk and he costs them a 1st round pick. Double whammy.

    For us to take a chance with a 4th round pick is a no brainer.

  131. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    “If Pettitte retires, how many people will be waiting for a “goodness gracious!” moment over the summer?”

    Ellen: Maybe this is me being a traitor to True Yankeedom, but personally I’d prefer a Moose “goodness gracious!” moment.

    Not that I don’t love Pettitte and all, but ever since someone here pointed out the difference between the way he and Moose conducted themselves when it came to signing a new Yankee contract, I cant get it out of my head. Moose coming back midway through next season to take his shot at a ring would be absolutely poetic.

    Of course, Moose is probably the last person who would do something like that (go back on his word), which is probably why I have so much respect for him in the first place. Still, maybe if the Yankees REALLY need him…

  132. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    Here is Andy’s statement when he finally resigns with the Yankees: “I left the contractual issues with my agent and it just took a little while.”

    woman.

  133. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    * not that there is anything wrong with women :)

  134. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    “if perez could get his walks under control he would be devastating.”

    Everyone wants to go with these “if he can do this” pitchers. If Sheets can get healthy. If Perez can get his head together. Yeah, and if I can hit the lottery, I’ll be rich.

    Pettitte is a known commodity. We don’t have to wonder if he can handle NY. We don’t have to wonder if he’s going to give 110% each time he takes the mound. We don’t have to wonder if he’s going to pitch 200 innings. We already know what he brings to the table. Why take a chance with some unknown when you can have what should be a sure thing?

  135. Noreaster January 14th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Nice post Pete, A couple of thoughts:
    1) Pettitte will either sign or he won’t. If not, I agree that we should go out and sign a number 4 starter because as we have all seen, stuff happens…
    2) We’re in a nice position having Nady and Swisher. I’d like to see what Swisher looks like in spring training since his bat was slow last year before I’d trade Nady. Who knows what one of them will bring, plus, stuff happens…
    3) Why aren’t people giving boy Theo a hard time for trading away the only decent young catcher they had (Shoppach)?

  136. Vito January 14th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    3) Why aren’t people giving boy Theo a hard time for trading away the only decent young catcher they had (Shoppach)?

    same question for Cashman with Navarro being dealt in early 05 for the big unit

  137. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    “Get real Pettite, you STINK. NOBODY WANTS YOU. I hope you’re reading this. Nobody wants you. Go back to your mysterious 36 million dollar offer, you desperate, cheating has been. You’ll never mean anything to the Yankees.”

    I will probably be hated for saying this but that’s okay :)

    In some respects Yankee fans and Boston fans have more similarities than they would want to admit.

    Sox fans have been roundly criticized for throwing Manny under the bus after helping Boston win a couple WWS.

    How is that different from some of the harsh criticism of Pettite right now?

  138. Noreaster January 14th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    I’ve thought about that. Seems like they gave up on Navarro too soon, but at least we have future options in the farm system…

  139. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    ray (sox fan):

    That’s a good point..

  140. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    Patrick:

    You’re not dealing with a hangnail here, or a broken pinky.

    The thing that everyone is worried about are Sheets’s shoulder and his back-these things are MAJOR issues for a pitcher.

    Regardless of the draft pick it costs or doesn’t cost, it’s not a risk the Yankees want to take right now-they’ve already got one risk in Burnett. They don’t need a second, even worse one.

  141. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    ray (sox fan):

    I won’t hate you do you have any pull with getting Manny to sign with us as well as Andy..:)

  142. bru January 14th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Wave Your Hat

    going by lowe,burnett pettitte is worth south of 16 million by your own analysis.

    going by numbers,era,whip,hits per innings pettitte is worth a lot less.

    there are several options the yankees have that can do exactly what pettitte can do between free agents or a trade.

    i personally would sign perez.if payroll is a concern trade nady or swisher for a cf.

    then the pitching and cf problem is fixed.a nady trade for milledge,dukes,maxwell or another cf along with perex as our 4th starter would be perfect.

    perex is a perfect # 4 for the yankees with very little pressure.

    the league batted 2.90 against pettitte & he gave up 233 hits in 204 innings.16 million for those numbers is absolutely insane no matter wich way you slice it.

  143. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    “I won’t hate you do you have any pull with getting Manny to sign with us as well as Andy..:)”

    Tim, I’m still here with that newspaper!! :)

  144. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    ray (sox fan):

    “I won’t hate you do you have any pull with getting Manny to sign with us as well as Andy..:)”

    Um….ya…Tim I am personal friends with Manny! :)

    And if you believe that I have some oceanfront property to sell you in Kansas.

    Seriously, in spite of the fact that Andy played for Houston for a few seasons it seems only fitting that he would pitch one more year for the Yankees in the new stadium in my opinion.

  145. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    How many games did the offense cost Pettite last year? even with Tex the offense needs some help..

  146. m January 14th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    If Andy retires now, it’s because it’s not worth it for him to pitch for what they had offered. Nothing wrong with that. People forget that he and Favre are OLD and that the body doesn’t recover like it used to. They’re athletes and have to work at it. Work hard. He may not want to go through the grind at $10M, but be willing to do it for $13M. What’s the difference? Only $3M, right? It’s perception. Money=motivation.

    If you were facing retirement, would you come back at a deep pay cut because you loved the job? Or would you seriously consider retirement?

    And I don’t think that the Yankees are fretting over $2-3M. They’re just being stubborn.

    And they shouldn’t be surprised if Pettitte ends up in LA or Atlanta. They know Pettitte’s personality, it’s deja vu all over again.

    The Yankees need to decide if they want a quality 200 innings or not. Pettitte or Livan. This is not the time to be pinching those pennies, especially since there’s a huge hole in the purse already.

  147. Noreaster January 14th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Ray, The difference is that they (you?) really, really, really HATE Manny, Roger, Johnny, etc…

  148. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    “Seriously, in spite of the fact that Andy played for Houston for a few seasons it seems only fitting that he would pitch one more year for the Yankees in the new stadium in my opinion.”

    More proof that you are a closeted Yankee fan. At some point, ray, you are going to have to come out of the closet. Do it for GB. :P

  149. YANKS IN 2009 January 14th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    perez would be a perfect # 4 for the yankees.

    _____________________

    The difference between Perez and Pettitte is that Pettitte is a gamer and Perez is not (Pettitte pitched the last half of last season injured/tired)

    You can look at Perez’s overall numbers…some of his starts were brilliant…and others he GAVE up in the 1 or 2nd inning

    We just spent the offseason adding guys with a good mental makeup…why would we want to add a basket-base on the staff?

  150. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Stop trying to say Hideki will be ok, and Posada…we lost Giamroid and Abreu…we need another established bat…

  151. Noreaster January 14th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Tim, As long as we have Nady and Swisher we can cover Matsui to a point, but if Posada can’t go that will really hurt the lineup.

  152. touchtoneterriost January 14th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    It’s good to give prospects chances but the Yankees don’t have one pitcher who can hold down a major league spot.Get Ben Sheets for two years and wait for Hughes to stay healthy and get innings on he’s arm.

    The Yankees don’t have the prospects that can come up to the majors fast.There not the Rays.

  153. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    I think we need Andy and I would like another stater like Byrd or someone for safty….and of course Manny..

  154. Bill Sloucher January 14th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Even after we sign Manny :), I think we still need more offense…maybe Dunn or Abreu would want to be utility guys….not saying it will happen just wishin’….

  155. Tarheelyank January 14th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    “How is that different from some of the harsh criticism of Pettite right now?”

    It’s diffrent because it’s worse.

    I can understand not wanting Andy, I can’t understand the hate for a pitcher with 178 wins for thier team.

  156. dave January 14th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    On riverave,

    He talks about a heyman article claiming that pettitte did not turn down the one year and 10 mil offer but rather that the yanks took the offer off the table when they inked tex. This is surprising news because it has been widely reported that it was pettitte who rejected the offer. Apparently, heyman reports that the real reason the yanks are shopping swisher and nady is to try to lower payroll in order to offer pettitte a similar contract that he finally might accept.

    I find this to be absolutely ludicrous. After giving burnett about 16.5 mil per season, the yanks all of a sudden slip into poverty. This article may not be true as heyman is the same guy who reported that pettitte had a 3 year and 36 mil offer on the table and may be on pettitte’s payroll based on these two stories but if it is, the yanks are making a HUGE mistake. If they want to trade nady, to get some pitching help or roster flexibility go right ahead. But to trade nady to have some money to give pettitte is just plain dumb – that could result in getting less back for nady than they should just to shed payroll. If the yanks are this impoverish, why give AJ 16.5 mil just to leave the last spot in the rotation up for grabs. Why nto spread that money around among two spots. And better yet, how about the yanks stop pretending like they dont have any money when they are going to be raking in millions upon millions of dollars next year and spend a little more to stabilize the rotation. If the yanks were going to cry poverty, they shoud have spread the money around instead of spending over 400 mil on three players.

  157. Bill Sloucher January 14th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    You can’t say Teixeira’s wife will like NY’s stores, I say we sign up a Wal-Mart to make her happy…

  158. bru January 14th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    “You cannot guarantee Phil Hughes anything. He hasn’t proven anything yet as a major league pitcher outside of a few flashes and the fact that he has never pitched a healthy season.”

    “He would be league-avg or better for 200+ innings.”

    since when do pitchers get paid 16 million for being league average & hughes,acevez & all the other pitchers should be used as debth until they prove they deserve a spot in the rotation.

    we saw how well that worked in 08 when they were handed a spot before the earn it.

    up the pettitte offer to 12 million or move on,sign perez or make a trade happen.

  159. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    “We just spent the offseason adding guys with a good mental makeup…why would we want to add a basket-base on the staff?”

    For the same reason they want to add a very injured Ben Sheets. I think it’s called lunacy.

  160. Pel January 14th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    True or False:

    Andy Pettitte is too proud to accept a $10M/1yr contract.

  161. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    Ray Sox fan – there is no difference. In both camps there are fans who believe they have the right to tell other fans how they MUST feel about certain players and that if they don’t feel that way, there is something wrong with them. This blog is no different in that respect.

    I started throwing Pettitte under the bus a while ago by the way…

    Intelligent people realize that two people can look at the same situation and see it differently. For example, there are some people who are not bothered by Pettitte’s second half and think he will be fine. Others think his second half is foreshadowing of who he has become. You can understand that there is merit in both perspectives. But, in my opinion, people who share the former perspective somehow feel that their opinion is the “correct” one and anyone who voices a different one is somehow heretical.

    Anyway, as Rebecca pointed out yesterday in saying that she acknowledges that her baseball knowledge is certainly not on par with that of the guy from Baseball Perspective, so do I acknowledge that my baseball savvy is not on par with that of the Yankee organization. And so whatever they do with Pettitte, in the final analysis, will be the correct response, in my opinion.

    The best I have to offer at any point in time is my opinion. My opinion is that Pettitte as a 5th starter and at a reasonable salary isn’t a poor option. The rest remains to be seen.

    (I do remember seeing Michelle mention several blogs ago that Andy has decided to accept the Yankees $10 mil offer. I haven’t seen anything more about that.)

  162. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    “going by lowe,burnett pettitte is worth south of 16 million by your own analysis.

    I don’t think I said Andy was worth $16MM, did I? I just said he was worth more than $10MM and given that he and the Yanks will at some point in all likelihood negotiate it out.

  163. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Laura – a 5.5 ERA the second half of the season with complaints about his arm doesn’t make Andy a sure thing either. I have no doubt he is capable of producing when healthy but Andy isn’t exactly healthy.

  164. john January 14th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    I would not mind Garland for 1 yr or even Livan for 1 yr just to take his lumps and eat innings. Who cares if he gets rocked. Just let him sit out there for 5-6 innings a game. Skip him when me play Tampa or Boston. Around the All Star break promote one of kids. It lessens the pressure and forces them all to work hard.

    What I don’t get is everyone is saying Smoltz was a good signing. He is old with a bad elbow and is know pitching in the AL EAST and NOT the NL East. Look how much smaller Fenway is to Turner field. I like the Yankee rotaion, but 1 more pitcher would make me feel great. However for the first time in a long I do feel like we have pitchers that can fill in for spot starts.

  165. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    “More proof that you are a closeted Yankee fan. At some point, ray, you are going to have to come out of the closet. Do it for GB.”

    Laura, I say Laura….have you joined forces with the likes of GB?? :)

  166. m January 14th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    False, Pel. The Yankees need Pettitte and said they want him back. They need to ante up. Lowe just got $60M, Andy just wants $16M (ish).

    Fewer years=higher AAV.

    It’s just one year. That bears repeating.

    My first choice is Andy, second choice would be a very cheap flyer on a Bird-like pitcher, third choice would be Aceves/Hughes. If it doesn’t work out, there’s plenty of time to pick up a pitcher. I mean, there are worse things than getting by with Joba as your #4 until you solve the #5.

  167. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    “Laura – a 5.5 ERA the second half of the season with complaints about his arm doesn’t make Andy a sure thing either. I have no doubt he is capable of producing when healthy but Andy isn’t exactly healthy.”

    He’s healthier than Sheets is. :P

    Whatever was going on with Andy’s shoulder at the end of the season will probably be healed by Spring Training. The Yankees must also believe this; otherwise, they wouldn’t have even offered him the $10mil.

  168. Smarter than you January 14th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Smoltz would have been perfect for the Yankees’ needs.

  169. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    “Laura, I say Laura….have you joined forces with the likes of GB??”

    In regards to your joining Yankees universe, yes I have. We’d be happy to have you.

  170. dave January 14th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    Bru,,

    If perez can get his over 100 walks per season under control he would be good but is that worth taking a 30 million dollar 3 year risk? Because that is what we have to start the bidding at if we want to sign this guy. And those numbers were in the NL, not the AL. They are bound to get a little worse.

    Ray,

    You guys had every right to criticize manny. What he did was beyond atrocious and i have yet to hear somebody say that redsox fans are wrong for hating him right now. He was greedy, disrespectful, unloyal, unappreciative and arrogant. I dont think any one in their right mind would say that sox fans should like manny right now. Just like yankee fans have already right to criticize pettitte right now – he is also being greedy and downright illogical. Where does he think he will go if the yanks dont offer him any more than 10 mil? But the comment you copies and pasted was far too harsh.

  171. Vrsce January 14th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    Wave Your Hat

    When this tedious Andy deathwatch is over, I trust that you will “Wave the White Flag”, because if he will not take 10mm he is not coming back. Despite your endless monomaniacal campaign.

  172. arby eyes January 14th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    you can look at Andy’s 2nd half in 2 ways if you believe an injury lead to his sub par pitching:
    1) he was injured and could have pitched better if healthy
    2) he was injured and could very well have a repeat of that injury in 2009

    $10 million was more than fair…

  173. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    “What I don’t get is everyone is saying Smoltz was a good signing. He is old with a bad elbow and is know pitching in the AL EAST and NOT the NL East. Look how much smaller Fenway is to Turner field. I like the Yankee rotaion, but 1 more pitcher would make me feel great. However for the first time in a long I do feel like we have pitchers that can fill in for spot starts.”

    *B
    I
    N
    G
    O*

  174. Tarheelyank January 14th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    Pel
    True- If Andy believes that he is not being respected ala Joe Torre.

    False- if it is truly only about the money.

  175. dave January 14th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    Sheets health risk at a possible one year contract with incentives or perez’s risk of never being a good pitcher for over three years and over 30 million. I dont even think that is a question.

  176. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Surely Tex’s signing can’t have affected the offer to Pettitte.

    By all accounts the Yanks made their offer to Andy before Tex was signed.

    I assume that’s so and if so it seems reasonable to believe they must have known then that they were planning to offer Tex, and the general vicinity of the amount they were going to offer.

    Surely had Andy accepted they wouldn’t have changed their plans for Teixeira – that would really be putting the cart before the horse.

  177. arby eyes January 14th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    “Smoltz would have been perfect for the Yankees’ needs.”

    do we only need a #4 for the 2nd half?

  178. Bill Sloucher January 14th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Maybe Chipper Jones will be available, adding him and MANNY and we’re planning the parade outside of City Hall…

  179. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    “When this tedious Andy deathwatch is over, I trust that you will “Wave the White Flag”, because if he will not take 10mm he is not coming back. Despite your endless monomaniacal campaign.”

    Well I suppose we could discuss football or college basketball instead…

  180. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    While you’re all having this “meaningful” discussion you are missing one of the most incredible baseball program – if you’re a Yankee fan that is – and if you haven’t yet watched it, are at home, and get MLB TV.

  181. dave January 14th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    tarheel,

    Every player and even torre pretended like the offer somehow translated into some disrespect issue. That just is a way of making greed look better in the court of public opinion. It is ALWAYS ABOUT THE MONEY. The respect is NEVER an issue – that is just something they say to make it sound like it is okay or somehow better than to be all about the money when that is the reality of the situation.

  182. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Trisha: Baseball Prospectus.

    Ray: Come out of the closet already :-P. We all know it’s your happy place but the dang formality of the thing gets to be rather annoying :-P

  183. sunny615 January 14th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    Just out of curiosity here, what is the Yankees’ bench depth? Nady/Swisher is OF/1B… Gardner/Melky is the 4th OF. Who is currently the INF bench warmer?

  184. 86w183 January 14th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    Wave— you are the most persistent guy out there… and maybe the hardest to get through to.

    A free market is determined by competitive bidding for products and services. If Pettite was “worth” close to what Lowe got someone, somewhere would have to offer it.

    Wacked out nuveau terms like “marginal benefit” mean nothing, asbolutely nothing. Pettite is “worth” what his best offer is. Get it? He is “worth” what someone is willing to pay him. Just because you see him having more value than SJ or I do doesn’t make it true. I might think he’s worth $ 12 million or # 40 million but that doesn’t make it so unless I have the money to offer.

    SJ puts it in context of team budgets, which is how the Yankees determine what Pettite’s worth is to them. If they think he’s worth $ 10 million than there’s no reason to offer him more. In two years it’s like Jeter wil be “worth” more to the Yankees than to other teams. Texas thought ARod would be worth $ 252 million to them and then concluded he wasn’t. Did ARod change? No, but that team’s determination of his value to them did.

    I know you have a big time man crush here, but that doesn’t change the reality. Right now there is no reason to believe Andy Pettite is worth one dime more than the Yanks have offered.

    There something to be said for the ability to differentiate fact from opinion.

  185. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    dave, if Sheets signs any contract, it’s not going to be a one year deal. Not for someone his age.

  186. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    Just out of curiosity here, what is the Yankees’ bench depth? Nady/Swisher is OF/1B… Gardner/Melky is the 4th OF. Who is currently the INF bench warmer?

    Ransom right now. Berroa maybe?

  187. S.o.S. January 14th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    From yesterday.Good to see your o.k. mel. Im missed my bff. Whats the deal with m? I should be the one with just one letter to my name with all the miss spelling i have during the day.

    Spurs/Lakers. Preview of the western finals?

  188. m January 14th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    I think ray’s just happy to find a place where there are decent people to talk to. :)

    [hello, ray...]

    -mel

  189. arby eyes January 14th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    ‘ken burns baseball’ totally sucked me in last night. ended up watching the whole thing and saving it to the DVR.. i may rewatch it. how did i miss this when it was on PBS in 1994?

  190. Tarheelyank January 14th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    “Every player and even torre pretended like the offer somehow translated into some disrespect issue. That just is a way of making greed look better in the court of public opinion. It is ALWAYS ABOUT THE MONEY. The respect is NEVER an issue – that is just something they say to make it sound like it is okay or somehow better than to be all about the money when that is the reality of the situation.”

    Dave we disagree. All you have to do is look at Andy going to the Astros the first time for LESS money. For most it is only about the Money, not all.

  191. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Dave,

    The Yankees took the offer off the table because Andy didn’t accept it. He rejected the offer.

    Cashman told him in their meeting in Houston that the offer would most likely go away if they signed Teixeira.

    Andy didn’t accept it and the Yankees moved on. That’s how it goes.

    Does that mean he isn’t coming back? Not necessarily.

    Problem is, he has no leverage. Yes, he can retire. So what? The Yankees would just move on and find somebody else, for a lot less than 10 million bucks, to fill that spot until Hughes is ready to assume it.

    As you move into January, teams budgets are pretty much set. Not a lot of teams have a lot of money to spend right now. That’s why prices are going down and not up for players.

    Its hard to envision a scenario in which Andy finds somebody willing to pay him what he believes he is worth.

    Don’t believe me? Look at the teams out there and tell me which one’s will offer him north of 10 million dollars.

    Boston? That ship has sailed with the Smoltz and Penny signings.
    Mets? Its either Perez or Randy Wolf for them.
    Dodgers? All of their eggs seem to be in the Manny and Wolf baskets.
    Giants? No chance.
    Angels? See Giants.
    Rangers? Tom Hicks has told Jon Daniels no expensive free agents this year.
    Astros? See Texas as far as an owner telling a team no expensive toys this year.
    Braves? Done with their pitching signings after yesterday.

    Instead of going back and forth on it, come up with a team that is a legitimate option at 10 million+ for Andy.

    If you look at the options, they aren’t appetizing for Andy right now.

  192. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    86-

    I think we all just have opinions here. I just made an argument, and if you don’t go for it that’s OK. I don’t know about you, but if I’m mistaken it won’t be the first or the last time.

  193. Arial January 14th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Tim,

    I’m with you. Sign Manny when Boras calls at the end of the process and tells Cash, “Manny wants to return to his roots”. Contrary to popular belief, we can use more punch in the lineup (too many “ifs” due to age and injury) and Manny certainly fills the bill.

    “Clubhouse disharmony”? ..poppycock!!! Ask Arod, Jeter, Mo and the rest of the guys. They’ve bitten that bullet already.

  194. bru January 14th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    dave:

    you are wrong about perez imo.you want to trade for harang,lose prospects & or players & If Harang pitches 210 innings in 2010, the option increases to $13 million. If he is traded, the option becomes mutual and increases to $14 million, with a $2.5 million buyout.

    his numbers are not as good as perez in the same league,perez pitched in ny & perez will cost about the same,maybe less than harang & we lose nothing but a 4th round pick i think.

    i can’t understand why so many people do not like perez.he is 27 yrs old with filthy stuff.walks are his only downside,his other numbers are excellant.

    he also is young enough to get better.lot of upside.sign him & trade nady for a cf.

  195. arby eyes January 14th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    “I think ray’s just happy to find a place where there are decent people to talk to. ”

    did Cheer’s close down? :(

  196. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Wave -

    I guess it depends on how much stock you put in reports that the offer was going to be reduced once Tex signed.

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/01.....149079.htm

  197. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes January 14th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    I watched the bit last night about 2001 and September 11th.

    Even though the Yankees lost that World Series, they represented something much bigger and some of the heroics in those playoffs and that World series (Jeter, Tino, Brosius) were absolutely incredible.

    It was far more palatable last night than it was at the time. Good program. It was one of the few times I didn’t hate Bush.

  198. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    How funny would it be if Andy Pettitte came back and accepted a deal less than 10 million :)

  199. dave January 14th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    Wave your hat,

    The way it sounded – they gave pettitte the 10 mil offer and told him it wouldnt be on the table forever and when they reached their payroll limit, they would take it off the table. Later on, they signed tex which they werent sure if they would be able to do and then, they took the offer off the table rather than pettitte declining. The article is somewhere on the SI site but i dont see a link right now. Im sure you could find it if you searched around.

  200. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    Rebecca – what did I say? I thought that’s what I said. Gotta check back.

    :)

  201. dave January 14th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Wave your hat,

    It is towards the end of this article:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....ef=writers

  202. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Anybody know anything about John Rodriguez (who signed a minor league deal and played with the Cardinals from 2005-2006)? Why didn’t he play in 2007-2008? Any good?

  203. Tarheelyank January 14th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    How do we know Andy doesn’t have a better offer? Because he hasn’t accepted it? It’s possible he has more levarage then we might know about.

  204. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    “Ray: Come out of the closet already :-P. We all know it’s your happy place but the dang formality of the thing gets to be rather annoying”

    Laura, Rebecca, and Mel….I will confess that some days it is very tempting!

    Good to see you back Mel. I had a good holiday in spite of what happened on Dec. 25th. This is my round about way of belatedly congratulating you and a certain team that shall remain nameless. :)

  205. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    Ah Rebecca, I found it.

    :)

  206. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    sunny: Cody Ransom.

    I’m doing today’s blog post on the bench, actually…(I know, I have no life).

  207. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes January 14th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    And regarding Pettitte, I personally think Lowe’s contract gives him some leverage. Suddenly he goes from being a $10 million pitcher to a $12 or $13 and that just sucks.

    We need to give the kids a chance, but we also need to cover our backsides in the event of injury (inevitable) or poor performance of the youngsters.

    Teix, CC, and AJ signify the Yankees intent of seriouly contending in 2009…it’d suck for that to be hindered by lack of rotation depth and too much faith in the farm.

  208. m January 14th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    sos,

    saw that yesterday. thanks.

    Yesterday’s game was brutal. We almost lost to a McGrady-less & Artest-less Rockets.

    We got Odom back, but we still miss Sasha, Luke (I’m serious!), and Farmar. KB24 is the backup PG right now.

    Your outside shooters will have a great night. Did you see that Orlando made (23) 3-pointers last night?

    The WC finals will be a toss-up again as the Spurs, Rockets, Hornets, Suns, & the Jazz are back on track. The Nuggets & Blazers are the dark-horse teams, but Dallas will not be invited to the dance.

    You know that we hate the Texas Two-step right? Worse-it’s back to back.

  209. David January 14th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    The Yankees stood by him and he is insulted because they won’t pay him the same for poor performance? Pettitte lives in a dream world. And has anyone mentioned that maybe he faded last year because he couldn’t take his HGH?

  210. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes January 14th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Dave,

    Didn’t Pettitte reject the $10 million offer?

  211. Rob NY -- 2009 The Road to Redemption January 14th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Andy Pettite: ERA+ 98 (below average) WHIP 1.412

    Randy Johnson: ERA+ 117 (better than Andy) WHIP 1.239 (better than Andy)

    Derek Lowe: ERA+ 131 (very well above average) WHIP 1.133

    They aren’t even close to the same pitcher. Pettite isn’t “within 20-25% of Lowe” he was about 33% worse than him last year. That’s what you’re paying for. Lowe is NOT league average by anybody’s evaluation, Pettite is. That is why Pettite doesn’t get Lowe money. The fact that Lowe is slotting to be the Ace of the Braves isn’t the point. The point is that he is capable of doing that while Pettite just isn’t. It isn’t even really close. RJ’s salary likely accounts for his age, so I give Andy a little extra cash, and the Yankee bonus. 10 is more than fair.

  212. Vrsce January 14th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    The comparison between Manny and Andy is compelling. They have both grossly overestimated their value and are now both without contracts. Manny is very likely to end up with a contract that is much lower (in years) than he wanted. Pettitte is just likely to end up.

  213. dave January 14th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    mad prince,

    Not according to this article by heyman:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....ef=writers

  214. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes January 14th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3813025

  215. bru January 14th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Laura
    January 14th, 2009 at 11:49 am
    “if perez could get his walks under control he would be devastating.”

    Everyone wants to go with these “if he can do this” pitchers. If Sheets can get healthy. If Perez can get his head together. Yeah, and if I can hit the lottery, I’ll be rich.

    Pettitte is a known commodity. We don’t have to wonder if he can handle NY. We don’t have to wonder if he’s going to give 110% each time he takes the mound. We don’t have to wonder if he’s going to pitch 200 innings. We already know what he brings to the table. Why take a chance with some unknown when you can have what should be a sure thing?

    ————————————————————

    perez pitched in ny,pitched 194 innings,no injury history that i know of,is 27 yrs old,cheaper than pettitte & has the same whip wich means he allows the same amount of baserunners for the most part.

    a 27 year old lefty who will give you 200 innings who can get better,had better numbers in 08 even with the walks to me is an easy choice.

    we do not know if pettitte is regressing but perez probably isn’t at 24 yrs old & could get better.

    i think perez is a much safer bet.

  216. David January 14th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    Pettitte is a known commodity. We know he isn’t that good anymore. He’s done and isn’t likely to get good again without his hgh.

  217. kd January 14th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    About the pettite situation: i just don’t understand why the red sox don’t come in and drive the yankees price up. they’ve gotta be still mad (at boras) about the tex situation and it’s in their best interest to ‘max out’ the yankees payroll during the off season to prevent them from taking on salary during the season. let’s be honest here, if the economy gets worse, teams might start dumping high priced players because they have to

  218. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes January 14th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    David,

    I think you overestimate Pettitte’s HGH use and underestimate his value as a 5th starter.

    I don’t think he is worth anymore than $10 million/year but I definitely think he is a perfect fit for our rotation, especially on a one year contract (ideal for the development of Hughes, Joba).

  219. Mike R January 14th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    I think Jon Garland would be an excellent choice for a 5th starter. He gives you 200+ innings, and he hasn’t missed a start in 8+ years.

    The guy is only 30 years old and has pitched in the AL for his entire career. It amazes me that he hasn’t gotten more attention given the Pettitte situation being at what seems like a stand still.

    What are your thoughts? I haven’t seen his name mentioned at all.

  220. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes January 14th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    kd,

    I think that if Pettitte and the Hendricks brothers tried to drive up the price via the Red Sox, the Yankees would raise their middle finger to the lot of them.

  221. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    Pel –

    Joel Sherman seems to think the answer to your question is – TRUE!

    :D

    “A lowered bid almost certainly would end the *prideful Pettitte’s* second Yankee tour, sending him to retirement or another organization.”

  222. Tarheelyank January 14th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    Rob NY
    I am curious what were the first half numbers like for the three?

  223. S.o.S. January 14th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    mel,
    I wish we could get our hands on Camby. Camby and Timmy would make a great front court. We need someone to help Tim or he will be worn out by years end. Luke is a player that doesnt get much attention on your team but IMO is a spark plug and important to your run. Lamar and Luke get others involved when their on the court. I heard a rumor yesterday of a Teshawn Prince for Lamar. That would be a steal for the Lakers.

    How bad does that Kidd trade look right about now. I called it when it happened and hes proven me right.

  224. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes January 14th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Mike R,

    I threw Garland out there last week and not too many folks on here are hot on the idea. He could be overpriced and I can respect that as a turn off. he would be a solid option at the back of the rotation though.

  225. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Is anyone concerned we will have our typical April struggle like we do every year?

  226. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    kd
    January 14th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
    “About the pettite situation: i just don’t understand why the red sox don’t come in and drive the yankees price up.”

    kd, I don’t think that the Red Sox (or a lot of other people too) are convinced that if they made a 10 million dollar plus offer to Pettite, that the Yankees would make a counter offer.

    Seems that the Yankees would be happy to have Pettite on their terms, but if it doesn’t work out then they are prepared to move on.

  227. DT January 14th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Two points.

    Again we are discussing the Boston vs. NY rotation. Old habits die hard. The pink elephant in the room is Tampa. (psst… the AL champ was Tampa not Boston!)

    Point 2.
    The debacle of last year’s youth movement has left scars on many. I really think that was an aberration. Hopefully it won’t change Yankee philosophy going forward.

    In mid-year 2005 a 25 year old pitcher got called up from the minors. Was he a talked about phenom? I don’t think so.

    He got a chance – he came thru. His name was Wang. Now he’s a big part of the rotation.

    You can go back thru Yankee history – Pettitte, Guidry, Stottlemyre, Ford. All got a call up from the minors and performed at the big league level. They got better year after year.

    Hopefully 2008 didn’t wreck things for the next Whitey Ford.

  228. m January 14th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    That’s it! Andy’s going to retire rather than use HGH for another full year. He’s finally realized the negative effects it has on the body.

    Garland and Perez are good options, but I would rule them out because they’re at the age where they’re going to want that “big contract”.

    Although, they’d be smart to take a 1-year deal because next year’s FA class leaves a lot to be desired.

  229. David January 14th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    How am I overestimating the HGH effects on Pettitte. Last year in the first year without it and low and behold he fades down the stretch. It seems as clear as night and day to me. I’d much rather give our kids a shot. Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves, Coke, Kontos. Take a flyer on Garcia as insurance. 10 million for a 4th or 5th starter is a waste.

  230. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    How am I overestimating the HGH effects on Pettitte. Last year in the first year without it and low and behold he fades down the stretch.

    Did i miss something? Pettitte admitted to using in 02 and 04 while on the DL. How exactly did that affect him in the other years?

  231. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Rob NY,

    That’s how teams evaluate players. You hit the nail on the head.

    That’s the crux of the dispute between the Yankees and Pettitte.

    The Hendricks Brothers would LOVE to put Andy in the class of Derek Lowe when pleading their case for more money.

    The Yankees view it differently.

    The rest of baseball seems to fall in line with the Yankees re: Pettitte has no other offers at this time.

    If he did, you can bet your bottom dollar the Hendricks Brothers would be leaking like a sieve to the NY media to drum up support for their side on this issue.

    Where do you think the phantom 3/36 “offer” came from?

    That’s how agents roll.

    Unfortunately for the Hendricks Brothers, the Yankees didn’t bite. We now see there was no 3/36 offer out there and they are back to square one.

    Without a competing offer, there will be no deal.

    Yes, the Yankees need another starting pitcher.

    That starting pitcher however doesn’t have to be Andy Pettitte and it won’t if he continues to believe the Yankees will pay him more than 10 million bucks.

  232. dave January 14th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    SJ,

    Maybe andy will come back maybe he will not. And i dont know for sure if pettitte rejected the offer or if the yanks took it off the table… iN THE HEYMAN article i just posted twice, it appears that it was the yanks who took the offer off the table after pettitte didnt make up his mind and the yanks signed tex.

    Bru,

    Walks are perez’s only problem and they are A HUGE problem. His whip is pretty bad too because of it. Harang is a much better pitcher than perez. Harang had one bad season but overall, has been one of the better pitchers in baseball in the last few years outside of last season. Harang would be a 3 year deal. Oli would cost us at least 3 years and 30 mil if not more because we would get into a bidding war with the mets. Harang is way more worth it for three years than oli even if we have to give up nady and prospects. Oli would be terrible in the AL east walking at least 120 per season. That is exactly the type of pitcher we dont need right now. i WOULD rather sign sheets or pettitte or trade for harang than sign oli. To me, perez is not even a last resort out a three or four year contract.

  233. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    DT – good post.

  234. Mike R January 14th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Mad Prince,

    He could be overpriced, but I find it hard to believe he’ll get more than a 3 year deal worth 24mil. Maybe someone will give him more, but given the large quantity of free agents still on the market it seems unlikely.

    I think Garland would be a more reliable option than Pettitte at this point. Pettitte’s only benefit is the 1 year deal rather than the multiple years Garland will probably get.

  235. john January 14th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Everyone hates Garland, but in this market he may be forced into a deal. The issue with him really in comparison to others is he will be looking at a longer term deal and the Yankees really only want a one year. If teams aren’t liking Garland now, you don’t want to have him signed up longer. Past this season the Yankees top five are around and you don’t want to pay Garland real money if any of the kids will be developed to take over next year for certain with a much higher ceiling. Then you would have an issue of trading Garland. Hughes would be cheaper, with a higher ceiling and that’s why multi year deals for mediocre pitchers damages their flexability goign forward. If it isn’t Hughes, then Kennedy, Brackman, Beltances, Horne, Bleich, etc. Someone out of those guys will be given a chance to be a full time starter and only one spot in the rotation is potentially open.

  236. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    article i just posted twice, it appears that it was the yanks who took the offer off the table after pettitte didnt make up his mind and the yanks signed tex

    Wasnt the headline, “Pettitte rejects Yankee offer”?

  237. dave January 14th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    gARLAND WOUD be an excellent last resort if we cant get pettitte for 12 mil, sheets for one year and an option or make a trade. Garland would be signed merely to ease the innings of the kids and not to be a legit fourth starter. He was really bad last year and really is only an innings eater at this point most likely.

  238. bru January 14th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    Pettitte is a known commodity. We don’t have to wonder if he can handle NY. We don’t have to wonder if he’s going to give 110% each time he takes the mound. We don’t have to wonder if he’s going to pitch 200 innings. We already know what he brings to the table. Why take a chance with some unknown when you can have what should be a sure thing?
    ————————————————————

    prove to me that we know that pettitte can handle ny better than perez when they both pitched in ny,how do we know perez won’t give 120 percent & beat pettitte’s 110 percent out,what does pettitte bring to the table???

    i’ll tell you what he brings.the league batted .290 against him,1.41 whip,29 more hits than innings pitched & will be 37 in june.perez pitched 194 innings,the league batted only .234 against him,1.40 whip & he gave up 27 less hits than innings pitched.

    if pettitte pitched 200 innings every year & gave 100 percent every time out & won 4 ws rings but had an era of 6.00 every year would you wan’t him on the mound???

    the only thing we can go by is the numbers & salary & imo there is no comparison.

    all i am saying is that you can make an argument for or against anything & i would much rather sign perez or trade for lannan from the nationals who is a lefty with good numbers who is a lot cheaper.

    it is time to move forward & stop letting personal feelings get in the way.pettitte is not worth 16 million,it is that simple.

    if the yankees don’t care about money sign him for 12 million but i would not under any circumstance give him 16 million.he can potentially be a terrible pitcher in 09 based on his 08 numbers.

  239. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    BTW, Alex Cora is going to sign a deal with the Mets today.

    1 year, 2 million bucks.

  240. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    We keep reading, these guys want multi-year deals yadda yadda. Garland, Manny, Sheets, etc. If there was a deal that a team wanted to fork over to them, we would have seen it. Everyone left will end with less than they wanted.

  241. S.o.S. January 14th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Yesterday i was watching the 2001 world series special on Mlbtv. It made me realize that i didnt appreciate those 4 titles in 5 years enough. It was almost like i expected it. How easily we forget the 80′s. I promise from now on im going to celebrate each title for a full year. I hope we can regain our swagger in 09 again. Cant handle this anymore!!

  242. Bob Ruffolo January 14th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    I agree with Peter, and the Yankees need one more viable veteran at the end of their rotation. Pettite is the best option, followed by Pedro. Smoltz wouldn’t have been a bad option either.

  243. David January 14th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Tex-Just because Pettitte admitted to using only those years doesn’t mean those are the only years he used. I think its naive to think that’s the case.

  244. Mike R January 14th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    “He was really bad last year and really is only an innings eater at this point most likely.”

    He had 17 quality starts last season….that isn’t that awful.

  245. Tarheelyank January 14th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    “Pettitte has no other offers at this time.”

    SJ how do you know this is true? Because Andy hasn’t accepted it? Or because it hasn’t been leaked? Your talking in absolutes and this situation may not be so cut and dried.

  246. Noreaster January 14th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    Rob, the numbers you quoted were National League vs. ALEast Numbers…you cannot take them out of context. Andy did have a bad second half, and maybe that is who he is now. We still need someone to pick up 200 innings, plus fill in for all the things that will go bump in the night.

  247. Mike R January 14th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    I’m wrong, he didn’t have 17 quality starts. He had 18.

  248. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    SJ44
    January 14th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
    “BTW, Alex Cora is going to sign a deal with the Mets today.

    1 year, 2 million bucks.”

    That is interesting news SJ. In my opinion Cora was a very solid back up infielder for Boston. I believe two or three years ago Pedroia started the season out very slowly and there were many people in Boston pushing to have Cora replace Pedroia in the starting lineup at that time.

  249. Garym(Yanks and More) January 14th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Pete, I have to disagree with you about the Sox depth being much better. I do agree the Yanks need another pitcher but Smoltz wont pitch until at least June and is old coming off of major surgery, Penny hasn’t been good or healthy in quite a while,bucholz had that no hitter but has been just as bad or worse then Hughes,Masterson is like Joba going back and forth and they aren’t sure what to do with him yet but probably will stay in the pen now. Josh Beckett always gets hurt,Wake is getting older and more brittle,Dice K who knows and Lester is good. I think the easiest and safest thing to do is sign Petitte but i just dont get what he is doing by not taking the 10 million after saying its not about money. The Yanks may have to just go sign sheets to a incentive laden contract or get garland who will give you innings, then Hughes,Kennedy,Aceves,Coke will all be the depth and I think thats pretty good.

  250. Larz January 14th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    How about this trade:

    Michael Young (would play 2B) and Josh Hamilton for Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano.

    It will never happen, but would be interesting.

  251. ellen January 14th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    “How do we know that Pettitte doesn’t have a better offer?” That makes no sense at all. Why in the world would he keep that a secret? Isn’t he the guy who said he only wants to pitch for the Yankees? Wouldn’t it benefit him to publicize other (higher) offers in order to nudge the Yankees to up their offer to him?

  252. Mike January 14th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    Pete i agree 100 percent !! The Yankees need another pitcher . !

  253. Josiah from NC January 14th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    SJ44,

    I was hoping the Yankees would’ve picked up Cora as an utility guy on the bench. Do you see the Yankees picking up a backup infielder soon? And what do you envision the bench looking like this year?

  254. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes January 14th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    “Did i miss something? Pettitte admitted to using in 02 and 04 while on the DL. How exactly did that affect him in the other years?”

    Exactly.

    David, you are assuming that he uses HGH every year before 2008 when he was listed in the Mitchell Report? Really? Its certainly possible I guess. I don’t think it has anything to do with him fading in 2008 though.

  255. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    How about this trade:

    “Michael Young (would play 2B) and Josh Hamilton for Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano.”

    The whole point of Young asking to be traded is that he is not willing to change from SS to third. If he is that adamant about it, I don’t think he would agree to change to second base.

  256. S.o.S. January 14th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    “BTW, Alex Cora is going to sign a deal with the Mets today.

    1 year, 2 million bucks.”

    We could have signed him with the money we saved in not signing Pettitte. He would have been an upgrade to the bench.

  257. dave January 14th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Castillo was terrible last year so i WOULD think the cora signing implies that cora and castillo will share the starting role at second.

  258. bru January 14th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    dave
    January 14th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
    Bru,,

    If perez can get his over 100 walks per season under control he would be good but is that worth taking a 30 million dollar 3 year risk? Because that is what we have to start the bidding at if we want to sign this guy. And those numbers were in the NL, not the AL. They are bound to get a little worse.

    ———————————————————–

    i am comparing him to what pitchers are available compared to risks.

    even with his 100 walks he had a better whip(baserunners) than pettitte but all of his other numbers are elite.

    harang would cost players,perez won’t,harang would cost the same,maybe more & outside of his whip wich was slightly lower than perez,perez had better numbers.

    would i like to sign a great pitcher,yes but when compared to what is out there,age,salary,numbers,risk i think perez is the best option unless we pull off a trade.

    with a trade we will lose debth & or prospects,signing perez let’s us keep everyone unless cash want’s to dump salary.

    it all depends on what cashman want’s to do.we will still need pitchers going forward even with our prospects so perez for 3 years is not the end of the world.

  259. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Its obvious Pettitte has no other offers. If he did, he either would have signed with somebody else, or his agents would have let it be known to the Yankees and others (by leaking to the media) offers were in on him.

    I know a lot of people in the game and there hasn’t been any talk about anything involving Andy Pettitte. Nothing.

    You hear things about Randy Wolf (Mets, Phillies, Dodgers, Padres kicking tires on him), Jon Garland (Dodgers, Brewers, among others), and even Ben Sheets (Texas is again going over his medical records).

    You don’t hear anything on Pettitte. That’s pretty unusual this late into free agency on a supposed upper class arm.

  260. jennifer January 14th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Seems like a lot of 1 year deals. With the second tier of free agents teams won’t be forced into a long term deal, since they hope the economy will get better and the price will go up.

  261. ellen January 14th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Mad Prince – admitting “some” bad behavior makes people suspicious. It’s damage control. Like when Clinton said he tried pot once – in college – and didn’t inhale. May be true. Sounds dubious to me.

  262. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    I think the Yankees are hoping Angel Berroa becomes their backup middle infielder. I think that’s the reason why they signed him. Especially with the way the deal was structured.

    If he makes the ML team, his dollars fall into line for what backup middle infielders usually make.

  263. jennifer January 14th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    AH the new flavor of the month Josh Hamilton. He had one good season, is it worth it to trade Cano for?

  264. Patrick Bateman January 14th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Rebecca:

    Brad Penny has serious concerns with his shoulder. He was a guy who threw 97 his whole career then could barely hit 90. Didn’t stop the Red Sox from giving him 8 million.

    If you can get Sheets for 8M-10M or so and only have to give up a 4th rounder, you do it. Hughes isn’t ready to be in this rotation, let alone a 4th starter in it. Neither is ID4, or Aceves.

  265. ellen January 14th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    And frankly, I never thought Pettitte would have taken PEDs before he showed up in the Mitchell Report; color me naive. It’s not beyond logic that people might think he actually did more than he admitted to.

  266. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    “Mad Prince – admitting “some” bad behavior makes people suspicious. It’s damage control. Like when Clinton said he tried pot once – in college – and didn’t inhale. May be true. Sounds dubious to me.”

    ellen, I’m with you. I’m also with you and SJ in believing that Pettitte has no better offers on the table or he would be advertising them in neon.

    I actually would love to continue to develop some of our kids and let them get their shots as soon as possible. We have some really good arms down below – or so it seems.

    I’m still up for any deal that includes Ian Kennedy.

  267. m January 14th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    I think the Yankees bench was full and they had already taken a flyer on Angel Berroa, who probably would offer more offense than Alex Corra, no?

    Question for the informed: The Red Sox have signed how many players now? Are they at the point where they have to make roster moves?

  268. Mike January 14th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    I agree Patrick !

  269. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    “I threw Garland out there last week and not too many folks on here are hot on the idea. He could be overpriced and I can respect that as a turn off. he would be a solid option at the back of the rotation though.”

    I threw the idea out there too but people don’t see him as dominant so they freak. The guy pitches 200 innings all the time.

    He will be cheaper than Pettitte but I think what the Yanks are backing away from is a longer-term deal and Garland will command more than 1 year. With Joba, Wang, CC, and AJ locked up for several years (and then locking up Garland) that gives zero chance for Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves to break the rotation.

    As we know, the strength with the Yankees is their pitching now. They have a strong farm system full of pitching. However, if you can’t get those guys consistent time on the major league level then you can’t up their trade value. There is a big difference in return between a proven AAA guy and a proven MLB guy. And you can’t expect these guys to fill in spot starts for injuries and be effective.

    In this sense, Pettitte makes the most sense here. In the same sense, Sheets could make some sense.

  270. gianthinker (SIGN BEN SHEETS!!!) January 14th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Absolutely right Peter Abraham. You guys know who I’m holding out hope for. As lang as the Mets dont decide to smarten up and sign Ben Sheets he could be our man. Its sounding like the Mets are the last team who could give him a pay day. After them he’d be left with just the Rangers who are only looking to go short term with him. There was previous rumor of them trying to offer him 2 years. If the Mets re-sign Perez that could leave Sheets available to sign a short term deal. It would probably be smart of him to sign a 1 year deal and set himself up to be one of the top starters available next off-season in a class currently headlined by Rich Harden and John Lackey. The best deal would be to sign him to a multi-year deal (3, 4 years) where each year in an option. Like a 1 year deal with an option for a 2nd, 3rd and 4th. But we could very well have Sheets fall into our laps right now. I believe with the 40-man roster being full we have to make a trade before we can add anyone anyway so I’m kind of expecting Ca$hman to make a trade and then see who is still on the market. If he can make a trade within a month from now there could still be two of Perez, Sheets and Jon Garland still on the market. I hope the Mets pass on Sheets and Ca$hman signs him but I’m just dreaming. There’s a lot of stuff that has to fall into place for them to sign Sheets. But there is a glimpse of hope it could happen at this point. Lowe really screwed up Manya’s plans. That was a big deal though that he had to take. He’s being over paid. That should set Perez up to make about $13MM a year not. 3 years, $39MM sounds about right. Hopefully they re-sign him and that will leave us with Sheets, Garland, Pettitte and others to choose from. After those guys you’re left with rehab cases and lesser skilled pitchers on the market. We’re talking names like Freddy Garcia, Mark Mulder, Randy Wolf, Jason Jennings, Sidney Ponson and worse and worse and worse and worse. Basically, after the Mets pluck one of these guys off the market we’re going to have to move to someone before the market is worse than their in house options of the young guys. I believe because of innings we absolutely have to bring someone in this year. We’ll see what happens.

  271. bru January 14th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    YANKS IN 2009
    January 14th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
    perez would be a perfect # 4 for the yankees.

    _

    The difference between Perez and Pettitte is that Pettitte is a gamer and Perez is not (Pettitte pitched the last half of last season injured/tired)

    You can look at Perez’s overall numbers…some of his starts were brilliant…and others he GAVE up in the 1 or 2nd inning

    We just spent the offseason adding guys with a good mental makeup…why would we want to add a basket-base on the staff?

    ————————————————————

    perez is not that much of a basket case & please with the good mental makeup stuff.

    i agree if perez was a miserable person but that is not the case.

    pettitte also looked dreadfull on a number of occasions.we also do not know the extent of anybody’s injuries including perez or pettitte.

    i would not mind pettitte back but not for 16 million.it is a difference of opinion.i am not trying to change anybody’s mind just stating my opinion.

    if you were to tell me that pettitte will cost 16 million & perez 13 million i take perez.if the money was equall i still take perez.the only way i chose pettitte is if he were cheaper.

  272. GreenBeret7 January 14th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    ray (sox fan)
    January 14th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
    “Ray: Come out of the closet already :-P. We all know it’s your happy place but the dang formality of the thing gets to be rather annoying”

    Laura, Rebecca, and Mel….I will confess that some days it is very tempting!

    Good to see you back Mel. I had a good holiday in spite of what happened on Dec. 25th. This is my round about way of belatedly congratulating you and a certain team that shall remain nameless.

    ————————————————————

    Ray, you’re just a bowl of Jell-o. I’ve been telling you to come over for months, and, NOTHING. Three skirts invite you over and you start to cave. Disgusting behavior.

  273. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    “And frankly, I never thought Pettitte would have taken PEDs before he showed up in the Mitchell Report; color me naive. It’s not beyond logic that people might think he actually did more than he admitted to.”

    Yep. Having nothing to do with his pitching ability but all to do with his professed christianity and all that good stuff, I see Andy in an entirely new light. Color me no longer quite so naive, with respect to Andy anyway.

    ;)

  274. gianthinker (SIGN BEN SHEETS!!!) January 14th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    Absolutely right Peter Abs. You guys know who I’m holding out hope for. As lang as the Mets dont decide to smarten up and sign Ben Sheets he could be our man. Its sounding like the Mets are the last team who could give him a pay day. After them he’d be left with just the Rangers who are only looking to go short term with him. There was previous rumor of them trying to offer him 2 years. If the Mets re-sign Perez that could leave Sheets available to sign a short term deal. It would probably be smart of him to sign a 1 year deal and set himself up to be one of the top starters available next off-season in a class currently headlined by Rich Harden and John Lackey. The best deal would be to sign him to a multi-year deal (3, 4 years) where each year in an option. Like a 1 year deal with an option for a 2nd, 3rd and 4th. But we could very well have Sheets fall into our laps right now. I believe with the 40-man roster being full we have to make a trade before we can add anyone anyway so I’m kind of expecting Ca$hman to make a trade and then see who is still on the market. If he can make a trade within a month from now there could still be two of Perez, Sheets and Jon Garland still on the market. I hope the Mets pass on Sheets and Ca$hman signs him but I’m just dreaming. There’s a lot of stuff that has to fall into place for them to sign Sheets. But there is a glimpse of hope it could happen at this point. Lowe really screwed up Manya’s plans. That was a big deal though that he had to take. He’s being over paid. That should set Perez up to make about $13MM a year not. 3 years, $39MM sounds about right. Hopefully they re-sign him and that will leave us with Sheets, Garland, Pettitte and others to choose from. After those guys you’re left with rehab cases and lesser skilled pitchers on the market. We’re talking names like Freddy Garcia, Mark Mulder, Randy Wolf, Jason Jennings, Sidney Ponson and worse and worse and worse and worse. Basically, after the Mets pluck one of these guys off the market we’re going to have to move to someone before the market is worse than their in house options of the young guys. I believe because of innings we absolutely have to bring someone in this year. We’ll see what happens.

  275. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Sheets’ medicals have to be really bad. If they weren’t, he would have been signed by now.

    He’s too good a pitcher for everybody to run away from, even in a bad economy.

    Only explanation are his medicals. He has no other bad marks on him. He’s considered a good guy by those in the game, so its not attitude. Its his medicals.

  276. S.o.S. January 14th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    “Question for the informed:”

    Damn, can i use a life line?

  277. bru January 14th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Bob Ruffolo
    January 14th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
    I agree with Peter, and the Yankees need one more viable veteran at the end of their rotation. Pettite is the best option, followed by Pedro. Smoltz wouldn’t have been a bad option either.

    ————————————————————

    pettitte might be the best option,i don’t know but if you take pedro over perez,now that is funny.

  278. YankeeRay January 14th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Great debate on Pettite just when I was tired of hearing about him.

    My thoughts are that Andy is not worth 16mm but he does bring the Yankees some value in the fact that he is who he is and will be out after 1 yr. His innings would be exactly what we need if healthy and he won’t block our youth movement going forward. I love another lefty in our rotation and it would be great to see him pitch in the new stadium.
    So what does that value add up to?
    If Cash thinks it’s 10mm then so be it. There are other options out there that could be more attractive long term but not too many IMO short term.
    If Andy is hung up on the 6 mm reduction who are we to blame him? Just because Giambi and Burrell took discounts it doesn’t mean Andy feels that his position with us warrants the same.
    In the end I think both sides will realize that we are good for each other and the deal will get done at or around 12mm.

  279. pat January 14th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    SJ44

    You seem to have a really good handle on contracts and insight into how Boras operates. Why would Tex and Alex both have clauses in their contracts that state they can purchase a set number of best available season tickets for Yankee Stadium?

  280. Larz January 14th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    Ray (Sox Fan):

    Young started his career at 2B and only moved to SS to make room for Soriano. If he was coming to the Yankees, I guarantee that he’d have no problem playing 2B.

    The reason that Texas didn’t offer 2B now is that they have Ian Kinsler.

  281. bru January 14th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    ray (sox fan)
    January 14th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
    How about this trade:

    “Michael Young (would play 2B) and Josh Hamilton for Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano.”

    The whole point of Young asking to be traded is that he is not willing to change from SS to third. If he is that adamant about it, I don’t think he would agree to change to second base.

    ————————————————————

    i heard that he said he would consider second base if he got traded to a new team.

  282. S.o.S. January 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    “Three skirts invite you over and you start to cave. Disgusting behavior.”

    GB7,
    I have to admit, it would only take 2 skirts to make me cave in. Hell, maybe even one. I guess your GB training has paid off.

  283. GreenBeret7 January 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    God…that’s looked bad. Let me correct that.

    “I’ve been telling you to come over to the

    ***Dark Side or Yankee Universe*** for months, and, NOTHING.

    Looks better

  284. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    “Ray, you’re just a bowl of Jell-o. I’ve been telling you to come over for months, and, NOTHING. Three skirts invite you over and you start to cave. Disgusting behavior.”

    Um…GB…its because you don’t look so good in your skirt.

    You know I’m just harassing you. Have a good day GG.

  285. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    I just said the Yanks have better s pitching, offense, bullpen then the Sox and now I’ve got lots of mad little 12 year olds typing crap into mlbtraderumors… I love it!

    Lots of Sox fans on the edge.

  286. Tarheelyank January 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    The available information just doesn’t add up.

    Andy is not an idiot. He wants to end his career with the Yankees.

    So why hasn’t he accepted an offer from the yankees (yet)?
    I will wait to hear his take on the situation, however I would be willing to bet it’s not as simple as he wants more money. Or thinks his value is 16 mil in this market.

    At this point in time, having a better offer but reluctant to take it, makes as much sense as any other reason im aware of.

  287. jennifer January 14th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    This has to be the most free agents available this late into the off season. Less than 4 weeks till the Yankees report, and it seems that most free agents are still out there. Think about this in two weeks all those players current on a team will likely start getting ready to head down to Fla, and in 3 weeks they will likely have moved.

  288. Patrick Bateman January 14th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    “Why would Tex and Alex both have clauses in their contracts that state they can purchase a set number of best available season tickets for Yankee Stadium?”

    You think Kate Hudson wants to sit in the right field bleachers and do roll call?

  289. BG January 14th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    I don’t agree at all with Pete’s post. How many teams really have more than five good starters with major league experience in their system at the beginning of any year? Who were the Phillies or Rays’ 6-8 options with ML experience at the start of last year? Hell, how many teams even have 5 good starters with ML experience.

    Pettite at a reasonable 1 year contract makes sense because if healthy and if the awful 2nd half was due to injuries, he eat innings and keep the team in the game. Joba is going to have his innings limited and Hughes will too if he’s the #5. It would be nice to have one more innings eater. That said, its a luxury and not worth $16 million. Guys like Smoltz and Penny while nice gambles for the redsox, are still gambles. They don’t provide what Pettite presumably would. For that matter, Sheets probably doesn’t now either. He’s thought to be injured and if he’s not, he’s certainly a risk.

    Let the kids battle it out (hoping Hughes wins), and if none of them pan out, then go and add someone ala Chacon or Lidle in previous years. The bar doesn’t need to be set high here. Its a fifth quality starter we are looking for. Also, FWIW (which is probably not much), Pete left Mitre off his list. And despite a lack of ML starts, I’d consider Coke, Wright and possibly even Horne at some point in the summer options above Igawa.

    The number five starter is a question mark right now, but its not as big a one as Posada’s health and durability and what they might get offensively from whoever mans CF.

  290. ellen January 14th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    Tarheel: I could see him being reluctant to take another offer, especially if he was sincere in stating that he only wanted to pitch for NY. But it still doesn’t explain why no other offer has surfaced anywhere. I just cannot see any benefit to keeping such an offer secret. Even from a PR standpoint.

  291. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    John Garland!

  292. 86w183 January 14th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    Garland is basically the walking definition of a back-of-the-rotation starter. In the last seven years he has made 32 or 33 starts every time. In those years his ERA has ranged from a low of 3.50 (2005) to a high of 4.90 (last year). He’s basically going to give you 6-7 innings every time out and give up about 3 runs. How much $$ is that worth? Apparently not a great deal.

    Oliver Perez is risky, but to dismiss him as an option doesn’t make much sense. He’s just 27 and in two years with the Mets he was 25-and-17, 3.91 and averaged just under six innings a start. I love high risk/high reward moves rather than careful, safe stuff and Perez certainly has the potential for high reward.

    As for the bench right now it looks like Gardner, Cabrera, Molina and the winner of Ransom/Berroa if the Yanks carry 12 pitchers. If they sign a veteran for the rotation they shouldn’t need 12 pitchers and would have room to add to the bench, ideally someone with RH power. Wigginton would be ideal though he’s still hoping to find a full-time job.

  293. m January 14th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    Paul Byrd pulling a Clemens (2nd half season).

    Russell, I’ve seen lots of lip about how Harold Reynolds (who apparently’s been brainwashed and totally sucks now) and others have been saying our bullpen is bad. Huh? Looks to me that it was good to great last season with positive reinforcements on their way. If Veras and Ramirez are your only questionable arms, that sounds PDG to me.

  294. Mike January 14th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Sheets and Pedro can be had on the cheap ! .

    Garland is an innings eater

    Perez .could cost you some . he may walk alot of people .. BUT he’s a lefty, young, and an innings eater

    take your pick . . Sign one . .and call it an off-season

  295. Eric Bousquet January 14th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    This is great! I love all the fudging and wishfull thinking going on in Yanker land. The Reality iS the the Yankees top 3 aren’t even better than the RED SOX top 3. Beckett clearly out dueled Sabathia and was robbed of the Cy Young in 2007. Sabathia had 2 good seasons in his career, his rookie & 2007 and all of you seem to be convienently fogetting how BAD he was last season before going to the NL. Burnett finally had 1 good season amidst 9 mediocre ones and all of a sudden he’s a top pitcher? LAUGHABLE!
    I love the dopes making like Beckett injuries last season were something to be concerned about while Burnett has had a career full of DL trips for elBow & shoulder problems and Chamberlain has hit the DL in every level of his professional career.
    The bottom line is the Yankees have ZERO depth and as of right now have 3 starters and you’re all just assuming Joba will start. So the RED SOX have Josh Beckett who besides last season the biggest problems he’s had is blisters, Jon Lester who is probabaly a better lefty than Sabathia and Dice-K who finished 3rd in the Cy Young last season.
    Vs. Sabathia wHo is probably the most overrated pitcher in baseball, Burnett who’s made a living sitting on the DL & Wang who will deal with landing on a broken foot all season long…then behind it there’s nothing but garbage. But certainly they won’t have any injuries next season, right?

    HA! Good luck see in 3rd…AGAIN!!!

  296. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    Pat,

    Three reasons:

    1. Traditionally, ballplayers comp seats aren’t in the best locations. The family section at most stadiums are ok but, aren’t in a premium location.

    2. PR benefit. It always helps to show some level of “giving back”. Especially when you sign contracts of this size. If a player is kicking back another 50+K annually to the team, and those tickets go to some underprivilaged kids (as they often do), its a nice PR bump.
    In Alex’s case, his seats often go to members of the Boys and Girls Clubs (a favorite charity of his) around the metropolitan area.

    3. The tickets are available for the players VIP’s or close family members. As in Patrick Bateman’s example, you may not want Kate Hudson sittin’ in the family section.

    Just as Madonna wasn’t last year when she was in Alex’s premium seats for the 2-3 games she and her kids attended.

  297. Dennis January 14th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    Why not take a chance and sign Ben Sheets to an incentive laden contract?

  298. GreenBeret7 January 14th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    S.o.S.
    January 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
    “Three skirts invite you over and you start to cave. Disgusting behavior.”

    GB7,
    I have to admit, it would only take 2 skirts to make me cave in. Hell, maybe even one. I guess your GB training has paid off.

    ————————————————————

    I can take torture or anything because of my training….eat snakes, worms, roaches….three little girls can’t make me turn……it would take at least four before I turned to Jell-o.

  299. Tarheelyank January 14th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Ellen
    I would agree that nothing about this situation makes much sense. But thats exactly why I dont think it’s so cut and dried like everybody is making it out to be. Untill I hear differently, I will stick with Andy.

  300. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    What wonderful insight from the newest Red Sox fan to grace this blog.

    Another shining example of the Mass. educational system gone awry.

  301. Braintrust January 14th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    The Red Sox have a more battle tested rotation. Right now the Yanks don’t have one starter who has come up big in the post season. Sabathia is a horse, who can carry a rotation, but his post season record is abysmal. Wang’s last post was horrendous. Burnett has never pitched in the post season. Joba pitched out of the pen in 07, and we all know how that went. The reality is the Yanks need their Beckett. Which guy will it be?

  302. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    “The bottom line is the Yankees have ZERO depth and as of right now have 3 starters and you’re all just assuming Joba will start. So the RED SOX have Josh Beckett who besides last season the biggest problems he’s had is blisters, Jon Lester who is probabaly a better lefty than Sabathia and Dice-K who finished 3rd in the Cy Young last season.”

    Eric, I’m a Sox fan but to say the Yankees have zero depth seems ridiculous to me.

    I am a huge Jon Lester fan, but to say at this point in his career that he is better than CC does not match reality.

  303. Braintrust January 14th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    Oh yeah,

    Andy for 1 year @ 13 Mil, with incentives bringing it up to 15. Maybe an option for a second year if a certain amount of innings, and wins are achieved.

  304. BD January 14th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Please, let’s not even give this clown the satisfaction.

  305. GreenBeret7 January 14th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    ray (sox fan)
    January 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
    “Ray, you’re just a bowl of Jell-o. I’ve been telling you to come over for months, and, NOTHING. Three skirts invite you over and you start to cave. Disgusting behavior.”

    Um…GB…its because you don’t look so good in your skirt.

    You know I’m just harassing you. Have a good day GG.

    ————————————————————

    Hey…I’ve got great legs….of course, the rest of me looks like Fred Mertz….

  306. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    “Damn, can i use a life line?”

    Only if you use it on one of the “informed”. May I suggest starting out with, say, Eric Bousquet???

    :lol:

  307. Braintrust January 14th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    Lester got tagged pretty good in the ALCS last year.

  308. Patrick Bateman January 14th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    “Sabathia is a horse, who can carry a rotation, but his post season record is abysmal.”

    You guys gotta stop with the “Sabathia isn’t good in the post season” propaganda.

    The guy pitched 4 games in a row on 3 days rest last season. Lets see any of your “battle tested” Red Sox pitchers do that, then perform at the top of their game in the playoffs.

  309. m January 14th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    Braintrust,

    Is that a trick question? Because Pettitte’s the obvious answer. :)

    Have a good day, guys. Gotta go find my hula skirt…

    psst, ray-we got rules here. Don’t talk to the trolls!

  310. S.o.S. January 14th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Lets revisit the Washburn talks of last year. He can give us innings and keep us in games.

  311. Russell NY January 14th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    The Red Sox fan base is either 12 and spoiled or 24 and drunk/racist. Then you have the rare guys like ray. lol

  312. pat January 14th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    SJ44

    Thanks. It just struck me as almost a salary kick-back and it was interesting that the 2 Yankees that have the clause are both Boras. Keeps salaries inflated but money goes back to the team in a round about way.

    This year it could add up to 12 seats between the 2 of them at $2500 per and almost $2.5 million for the season.

  313. BD January 14th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    Perez and Garland are just not good. Andy is still a significantly better pitcher than either of those two. For my money, if it comes down to not having Andy, the Yankees are better off going with Hughes/Aceves for the 5th slot, because they will perform AT LEAST as well as Perez/Garland and they won’t cost you anything. Maybe that allows you to do the Cameron trade and actually improve the club.

    Specifically on Perez, compare his peripheral stats to Andy’s, and also keep in mind that he’s pitching in the NL striking out pitchers probably twice a game on average.

  314. Vincent January 14th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    “Joba pitched out of the pen in 07, and we all know how that went.”

    Yeah God or whoever came down and threw a bunch of bugs on him.

  315. 86w183 January 14th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    eric—

    In the last four seasons Josh Beckett has made seven mnore starts than AJ Burnett. AJ has a better ERA in that time 3.75 to 3.96. Sabathis was terrible before the trade? His ERA was 3.83… Beckett’s was 4.03.

    A mind is a terrible thing to waste

  316. jim January 14th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    If Andy comes back , great. But I continue to like oliver perez.

    The Derek Lowe signing is great for the yankees.

    If the mets had landed him for 3/36 and perez 3/30 then they would be so much smarter than yanks who paid top dollar for cc and aj.

    now lowe gets 4/60 , which is close to the reported 4/64 the yanks were talking about before aj signed.

    If I were the yanks I would tell boras 4/48 for perez but with the ability for the yanks to trade him.
    keep pettite waiting while the perez thing plays out.

    that means the mets need to go 4 yrs and 52 for perez.

    If the mets get perez, fine. But make them pay.
    then offer pettite the 13 million and you have pettite

    if perez comes to the yanks that would be great.

    One thing I think is important for the yankees is having 2 left handers.

    With Perez the yanks would have

    cc – 28
    aj – 32
    wang – 28
    perez – 27
    chamberlain – 23

    hughes – 22
    aceves – 26
    coke – 26
    kennedy – 24
    brackman – 23

    that is a young pitching staff and relatively durable.

    with cc,aj, and perez set for the next 3 to 4 years, they are set for a serious dynasty like run.

    as time goes on, wang can also earn his way into a nice contract is he continues to improve.

    then joba, hughes , etc are all there with no pressure and they continue to get better for the next 3 years.

    to me this would be awesome.

    If they were to make the playoffs , they could enter into a 5 or 7 game series with a full set of power pitchers.

    the yanks had some great pitchers, but often by playoff time they were showing their age. mussina injured or out of the mix, clemens injured during the game, randy johnson trying to pitch with bad back etc.

    I like wang, but in 2007 the yanks were a hot team and got beaten by the indians , and they threw wang out there for game 1 and 4 and both times the yanks were way behind quick.

    Oliver Perez is inconsistent, But I feel like he would come through in the playoffs.

  317. BS January 14th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Peter is dead on. Without another reliable starter this staff is headed towards another summer with Ponson, Chacon, Small, etc. You can’t count on Burnett and even if they are healthy the Yanks will not let Joba and Hughes pitch too many innings. If the Yanks can sign Pettitte (I would even revisit the $10 mill) it changes the entire landscape. Barring the unforseen you can hope for 35 starts from CC, 33/34 from Wang, 32/33 from Pettitte. If Burnett can pull a miracle and stay healthy he would get 32/33 starts and if he doesn’t you can have Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves, etc. pick up the slack. Keep those guys on a strict 5 day roation even with off days (CC and Wang go every 5th day w/ Pettitte and Burnett falling in place be it every 5th or 6th day) and keep Joba in the so called 5 slot and you are looking at about 26 starts. If he averages 6 innings a start that is 156IP and a lot of rest toward the end of the year. You can’t adhere to this plan if you don;t have another 200+ innings guy in the rotation.

  318. arby eyes January 14th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    so if Paul Byrd gets signed mid-season, does Boston still get their sammich pick?

  319. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    “I would not mind Garland for 1 yr or even Livan for 1 yr just to take his lumps and eat innings. Who cares if he gets rocked”

    quite frankly, I’d rather have El Duque than Livan. After all the drama last year with Livan when he was sucking and the Twins wanted to replace him with one of their young guys. It would be the same situation here and the Yankees don’t need that. Whereas if El Duque sucks in the rotation he can just go in the bullpen, or retire. Honestly though I believe if theres anyone who can pitch till theyre 60 (well, besides Moyer) it is El Duque. I won’t believe his career is over until I see that he is on the hill with literally nothing left.

    He needs to retire a Yankee, anyway. Two birds, one stone!

  320. David January 14th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    Anyone who excuses Pettitte’s terrible pitching in the last half of 2008 as being due injury, is saying he was injured for almost half of last season. It follows that he’s an injury risk for 2009. If the Yanks are going to sign an injury risk, I’d prefer Sheets. He has more upside.

  321. RhapsodyInBlue January 14th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    No depth?

    I do believe the Yankee farm teams at A, AA and AAA level lead their respective leagues in team pitching ERA.

  322. disco stu January 14th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    “The reality is the Yanks need their Beckett. Which guy will it be?”

    How did Beckett do last year?

    There are no assurances of future success based on previous success, just as there is no assurance of future failure based on previous failure.

    The fact of the matter is the Yankees have gone a long way in stabilizing their pitching and the talent they now have is tremendous.

    None of us will know exactly how CC or AJ will do in their fisrt post season as a Yankee or how Wang will rebound in his next post season until they get that opportunity. Why sicken yourself with worry?

    Besides, it’s not like dominant pitchers who struggled at one point in the post season never redeemed themselves in subsequent post seasons … Randy Johnson’s post season resume was very mediocre before 2001 and he buried us that year in the World Series. How about Brad Lidge … you think he didnt redeem himself this past year after the way he blew up in Houston?

    Also, if your measuring stick for assurance of post season success is based soley on past performance, then why should any of us ever believe that Arod will finally break out one year and dominate in October?

  323. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    LOL at Eric Bosquet. Crack is wack, dude!

  324. Eric Bousquet January 14th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    Ray,
    I disagree with you. I can’t see where the Yankees have any depth. Their top 3 have question marks that extend past last season and beyond them there isn’t much to crow about. As far as Lester vs. Sabathia I think the 2 are comparable except Lester has had more succes and is still young and clearly cares more about his conditioning.
    The RED SOX 5 are all proven and all recent WS champions. There were no injuries to the top 5 that are as bad as what Burnett, Wang & Chamberlain have gone through. Then you back them up with Smoltz, Masterson & Buchholz it’s a no brainer who has the advantage…RED SOX, CLEARLY.
    Just look at last season as an indicator, the guys the Yankees went into last season with weren’t even as big an injury risk as they are now. Then lok at the RED SOX they had even nmor einjuries than the Yankees but had the depth to overcome it, at this point they have even MORE depth than last season and their loaded farm system is closer to producing even more guys lke Anderson, Bowden & Bard.

  325. RhapsodyInBlue January 14th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    That would be of course for the 2008 season

    “I do believe the Yankee farm teams at A, AA and AAA level lead their respective leagues in team pitching ERA.”

  326. ellen January 14th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    86: don’t feed the trolls!

  327. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    ““The reality is the Yanks need their Beckett. Which guy will it be?”

    They need their guy who is going to suck his first year with the team and give up HR to everyone and their mothers, then do great the 2nd year, then suck again the 3rd year, particularly in the playoffs?? Really??

  328. eddie s January 14th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    jon garland!

  329. saucY January 14th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    oops, forgot to change my name back :?

    i’ve gotten “friend of a player” seats in cleveland. they were very good seats and our group got quite a few. but they weren’t what i’d call premium. first level, behind home plate, but the furthest back from the field on the 1st level, just behind the aisle…

  330. Mike R January 14th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    BD,

    “…the Yankees are better off going with Hughes/Aceves for the 5th slot, because they will perform AT LEAST as well as Perez/Garland and they won’t cost you anything.”

    What stats are you looking at? I’m not too big on Perez, but how can you honestly say that Hughes/Aceves will perform at least as well as Garland?

    Garland certainly isn’t going to blow people away, but he’ll get his ground balls, make all of his starts, and give you 200+ innings. If he pitches to the tune of a 4.4 ERA, you have one heck of a 5th starter.

    Hughes will not be capable of pitching 200 innings next year, and has yet to prove he can stay healthy for an entire season.

    Aceves has 4 total major league starts under his belt. He pitched well in those 4 games, but he’s certainly not someone you want to go into the season relying on.

    Injuries will happen and Aceves and Hughes will get their chances, but I think it would be a poor decision to go into the season relying on 2 unproven players to give you quality innings.

  331. Patrick Bateman January 14th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    “The RED SOX 5 are all proven and all recent WS champions.”

    Only thing Dice-K proved last year is that he was lucky. He walked half the population of Japan and weaseled his way out of it.

    Lightning doesn’t strike twice in the same spot. If he pitches like that again this year, he’s gonna eventually be lit up like the Rockefeller Center Christmas Tree.

  332. RhapsodyInBlue January 14th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    Hope tubby comes into camp in shape!

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/bl.....%252C66802

  333. Vrsce January 14th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    RhapsodyInBlue

    That is not blubber; he is carrying Theo’s baby.

  334. E-Man January 14th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    I would not be happy if the rotation is as it stands and we go into the season relying on Hughes and Kennedy again.

    With that said, I don’t think there is any chance of it happening. I can’t imagine the Yankees putting 250 million dollars into the rotation and repeating the same mistake as last year.

    Look the fact is, we have 2 reliable starters in CC and Wang. AJ has been injured every year and is a big wild card. Joba is on an innings count and has to be the 5th guy. We’re looking for a #4 starter, someone that can eat innings. Hughes and Kennedy are like the 6 and 7 guys for injuries.

    The biggest problem with last season was that they didn’t think about worst case scenario and that’s what happened.

  335. BS January 14th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    “I would not mind Garland for 1 yr or even Livan for 1 yr just to take his lumps and eat innings. Who cares if he gets rocked”
    I can’t stand this logic. If the pitcher is getting rocked he doesn’t eat innings.

  336. Yankee girl January 14th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    Quote:
    love the health argument. Sure Burnett is injury concern, Wang had a freak foot injury, and Joba had tendinitis.

    Of the pitchers you listed for boston, 6 spent time on the DL last year, two have as many starts as Kennedy and Hughes. Clay Buchholz is 5-10 career with an ERA over 5.5 (Hughes numbers are better), Masterson started as many games as Ian Kennedy, and was moved to the pen.

    Sorry, not convinced Boston has more depth.

    What is wrong with signing Jon Garland. Or make a trade for Matt Cain ?
    We still need a CF. I don’t wsnt to see Damon, Gardner or Cabrera in CF. Go get David DeJesus or make a trade for Rick Anikel.

  337. Doug January 14th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    I will say, as has been said before by many others, that Joba is the inevitable replacement (as if he could ever be fully replaced) of Mo. The Red Sox realized that the best place for Papelbon was in the pen and the Yanks should do the same, what a shame it would be to waste that talent by overworking the power arm in the rotation. That now thins out the rotation to Sabathia (an injury risk due to his enormity), Burnett (an injury risk due to his past laundry list), Wang (not sure how he’ll recover from the fracture last year) and then the assortment of leftovers you’ve listed. I do like Aceves and I might be willing to give Hughes another try to see if he ever reaches the potential that everyone says he has, even though I just don’t see it, his curve is filthy, I admit but his fastball is much too flat and hitable. I say leave Perez to some other dumb team willing to overpay for minimal talent and go after Sheets, yes he’s yet another injury risk but he has such a high ceiling and we can get him for a ridiculously cheap contract, incentives out the wazoo. Just imagine if they were all healthy…holy cow Rizzuto!

  338. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    John Garland – young, cheap, eats innings, perfect ERA for a #5 spot.

    He can be our Andy Pettitte for the next 3 seasons. Why isn’t he already signed.

  339. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    Anyway, even though I half-joke about El Duque and half-seriously pine for his Yankee return, if Andy doesnt sign I think the best solution is either trading for Washburn (hopefully Seattle’s new management is more reasonable than the interim crew from last year) or Jon Garland.

    I literally havent heard of one single team having any interest in Garland, only speculation that he might work as a fallback option for some teams if they miss their no. 1 options. As far as I am concerned, this list includes the Yankees! If we could get him to take a 1 year deal (maybe 1 + option) I don’t see how this is a bad move. I understand he isnt that great, but he provides the stability we crave and is also a “gamer”….he was never the best pitcher in the White Sox rotation, far from it, yet he was the 1st guy on their staff mentioned when it came down to “Who Do I Not Want My Team to Face in a Big Game.”

  340. S.o.S. January 14th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    I didnt know that a pitcher(lester)can be considered and Ace after having a total of 1 good year in his career. Comparable to Sabathia? You must be the same person that that argued this summer that Beckett was the best pitcher ever. Amazing how low the bar is set in boston.

  341. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    Doug,
    how many pitches does Papelbon have? More importantly, how many can he throw with effectiveness for strikes

    Joba has 4! Any pitcher than can throw four pitcher, all for strikes and with effectiveness belongs nowhere but the starting rotation. Any starter that throws over 95 makes a good closer. Why didn’t they make Verlander a closer? He has closer stuff?

    Because SP is much rarer than a guy with one or two pitches that can throw hard.

  342. hobbie January 14th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    Garland, o.k. Sheets, possible Andy Goodbye old friend. sign with the mets if you wanna pitch in a new stadium

  343. Bob Mac January 14th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    I don’t quite understand the argument seemingly being made by some that we should re-sign Pettitte becasue his stats would have been better if not for a tired or sore shoulder. To me, that raises the question of his durability for next year. Is he truly the 200 innings eater or is his shoulder problem a sign he is no longer able to do that? It may all be moot if the Yankees simply don’t want to spend that kind of money for a 4th starter.

  344. MaineYankee January 14th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    The people that suggest the Yanks sign Perez to a three year contract don’t seem to be seeing what they are doing in regards to developing the pitching in the minors. If they didn’t want to see what they had they would have gone after Santana, which is what some have critized them for in the past. Signing Sheets would just give some of you more to complain about ala Pavano.

  345. 86w183 January 14th, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    Eric—

    Enough!

    “Lester has had more success” than CC Sabathia? Why do you want the world to know you’re an idiot?

    Sabathia has won 117 games to Lester’s 27… with a lower career ERA. In fact, in each of Lester’s three seasons Sabathia has had more wins and a lower ERA.

    Chowdahead

  346. YankeeRay January 14th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    Alex Cora to Mets

  347. saucY January 14th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    i feel like we are talking about Pettitte vs Other-possible-SP on a daily basis on here. what i don’t see is talk about our bullpen and i hope it’s not something that we’re taking for granted.

    who will be in our bullpen in ’09 after Mo and Marte? Bruney, Veras, Ramirez? i look at the depth chart on yahoo and see Sanchez and Chase Wright in our pen. Is Melancon definately going make it out of spring training? am i missing anyone?

  348. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    The RED SOX 5 are all proven and all recent WS champions. There were no injuries to the top 5 that are as bad as what Burnett, Wang & Chamberlain have gone through. Then you back them up with Smoltz, Masterson & Buchholz it’s a no brainer who has the advantage…RED SOX, CLEARLY.

    WHAT!!!!!

    Where is this exactly? Penny? Smoltz (1 world series in the mid 90s and 5 surgeries in 6 years), Masterson has proven what? Buchholz is 5-10 career with era over 5.5. Beckett and Wake have been on the DL a lot in the last 2-3 years. Dice-K had a dead arm in May last year.

    Explain how none of this is a problem?

  349. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    Question, and I’m not sure if this has been addressed: How long do you think the Yankees wait before going out and signing someone like Garland?

    While it’s easy to believe Pettitte would keep himself in shape, I don’t know about any of the other pitchers’ off-season regimens.

  350. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    Any Red Sox fan that wants to bash on the Yankees rotation for it’s injury risk needs to look at their own rotation.

    Smoltz – 5 surgeries in 6 seasons? or is it 6 in 7?

    Penny – Well, if you ask Peter Gammons, he finished 3rd in Cy Young votes a few years back. And we barely have seen him since.

    Beckett – coming off an injured season

    Wakefield is garbage. The whole AL East knows him by now. Dice-BB will get shelled. Can somebody find his WHIP for last season. I’d be shocked if it was under 2.

    Lester is your pride and glory in that rotation, which is sad, considering the guy had one good season so far.

    Come on Boston, show some intelligence.

  351. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    I’m a bit upset over looking over Alex Cora. 1/2M from the Mets. We could have given him an extra .5 to come here. He would have been a great bench guy, which is one of our 2 glaring needs, the other being a #5, GARLAND.

    Garland + Cora = offseason over.

    Now we have to find another bench guy.

  352. Sal Cipriano January 14th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Sheets is definitely the best pitcher left on the market, ability wise. He’s still my number one if Pettitte doesn’t resign. I’d take Pettitte back, no problem, however let’s not kid ourselves by saying that he doesn’t have problems and worries, too. He’s not a lock to be the guy used to be, the second half of last season proved that.

    That really goes for anyone you sign. Pitchers, for the most, part are always question marks. The motion of pitching is unnatural and violent, and injury lurks for all of them. So saying there’s a definite line to be towed one way or another is silly. There’s good opinions and hard facts to back up both sides, but it’s a roll of the dice every time; no matter how much the risk factor is, no matter how much money they earn.

    Someone is signing Sheets, and that someone is either going to score or not, but if they score, they’ll score big. Why can’t that be the Yanks?

    The only two others guys I like on the list are Perez and Garland, possibly Garland more. He’s as solid a #5 as you can get. If it’s not one of these four guys I’ll be surprised.

  353. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    “Clay Buchholz is 5-10 career with an ERA over 5.5 (Hughes numbers are better), Masterson started as many games as Ian Kennedy, and was moved to the pen.”

    Yankee girl, first let me say that I actually agree with you that Boston does not have more pitching depth than New York.

    But to use the example of Hughes and Bucholtz is not that convincing. Bucholtz has a career 5-10 record with an ERA of 5.56. Hughes has a career 5-7 record with an ERA of 5.15 and so I would ask is that a whole lot better?

    Both Bucholtz and Hughes in my opinion still have a lot to prove.

    Yes, Masterson did go to the bullpen. But it was not so much that he was not effective as a starter because he was…Boston needed another arm in the bullpen. At this point in their careers I would choose Masterson over Kennedy.

  354. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    Ray,
    I’d choose you over Kennedy. No homo

  355. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Agreed about the bullpen, saucy. I am not worried about the 6th, 7th, 9th innings, but I am a little concerned about the 8th. I would actually trust Marte the most as a setup guy, in terms of stuff, but we know from last year that he can’t be overworked too much or he will implode and we will lose an important late game weapon. I don’t trust Veras much at all, to me he is a house of cards waiting to crumble. Bruney would be my preferred choice for the 8th…unless he pitches like he did in 2007. Then we’re kind of up a creek w/o a paddle till Melancon is ready. I’d like to see them add another arm who could concievably, but doesnt HAVE to pitch the 8th. That might rule out Juan Cruz, who may be able to get work as a closer. If not, though, I would consider him as an option since he only would cost us a 4th rounder now.

    Although, I do keep casual track on Melancon, and it seems that every day those in the know think there is a bigger and bigger chance of him being ready sooner this year than later. One of his biggest plusses is apparently his makeup. Scouts havent stopped gushing over it since he was drafted. which makes me think that as long as he can throw strikes, he will be up to any challenge.

  356. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    “Someone is signing Sheets, and that someone is either going to score or not, but if they score, they’ll score big. Why can’t that be the Yanks?”

    We already have Burnett. To have 2 top tier SP’s as DL cases, after what went down with Pavano, is crazy. We need stability, not to sign everyone that MAY help the cause. We dont need upwards of 20M injured.

    You wanna see your team sign every injury case to the hope that they might return to past and prior form, be a Red Sox fan

  357. MaineYankee January 14th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    I think one reason Papelbon was put in the bullpen was because of concers with his shoulder. They have had to rest him at times because of a tired arm near the end of the season. I believe in the last game against the Ray’s they were going to use Dice K because of that.

  358. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    At this point in their careers I would choose Masterson over Kennedy.

    How bout Masterson vs. Aceves?

  359. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Joba is not Papelbon.

    As I understand it, Papelbon never had four plus pitches.

  360. kd January 14th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    any thoughts as to why berrora over cora? i know cora makes double the money, but cora likely is a better player. is it to punish berorra for beating our soriano for rookie of the year?

  361. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    “Ray, you’re just a bowl of Jell-o. I’ve been telling you to come over for months, and, NOTHING. Three skirts invite you over and you start to cave. Disgusting behavior.”

    GB, ray is coming out of the Yankees fan closet, not the regular one. You shouldn’t be surprised that 3 women asking a man for something has an affect on him. :)

  362. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    JoeyA

    You made some valid points about the injury risks of the Boston rotation.

    I think most fans that will try to be at least a little objective would admit that the Yankees have made a significant improvement to their starting rotation.

    It is fair to say that both the Sox and Yankee rotations have some injury risks, but especially the Sox with both Penny and Smoltz. I anticipate that Beckett will come back strong.

  363. five iron from fenway January 14th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Ray – I do not see many scenarios where Masterson stays in the rotation. Unless you get multiple injuries to the rotation I think most Boston people think he is a pen arm. That is why in my original comparison I had him linked to Phil Coke. Showed some nice potential last year. Both were in the pen for the major league initiations. Both will provide their teams with some flexibility going forward – starter, long relief, bullpen. If I had to choose I go with the lefty not the 3/4 righty.

  364. Andrew January 14th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    The Mets can give Cora some assurances of playing time, which the Yankees can not do. Castillo is older, brittle and terrible at 2nd and Cora could easily find himself as the starter there at some point this year–not such a clear path to playing time with the Yankees.

    As for Jon Garland, he has said he prefers to pitch on the West Coast, and bottom line the guy stinks. He doesn’t strike anybody out, he relies on his defense and the Yankees’ defense isn’t as good as Anaheim’s was last year, plus his underwhelming arsenal vs. AL East lineups means surefire ugliness. He might sound good in theory because he doesn’t get hurt and there apparently isn’t a market for him, but there is no guarantee that he would take a one or two year deal, nor is there any guarantee he won’t pitch to a 6 ERA for the Yankees.

  365. BD January 14th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    “What stats are you looking at? I’m not too big on Perez, but how can you honestly say that Hughes/Aceves will perform at least as well as Garland? ”

    I’m basically looking at their respective stats on FanGraphs and drawing some conclusions about their overall quality.

    Garland: Age 29, career ERA of 4.47, low strikeout guy (consistently in the 4′s, with the rate DROPPING), gives up homers, and pretty consistently 22% line drive rate). He’ll be putting a lot of balls in play (many line drives), and you’ll be hoping the Yankees stellar defense chases them all down.

    Hughes: Age 22, near-historic great record in the minors, great stuff, doesn’t give up HRs. Plagued by injuries during first two seasons in MLB. Despite this, still put up a fielding-independent ERA in ’08 that was .4 runs better than Garland’s (4.34 vs. 4.74). Projected by Bill James to pitch to a 3.35 ERA over 125 innings in 2009.

    Bottom line: Garland is slightly below average pitcher with no discernible upside. Hughes is already better than Garland and could be just as good as any pitcher in the NYY rotation.

    Admittedly, Aceves is much more of a crapshoot. However, we’re only budgeting him for 75 innings in this analysis, and CHONE and Marcel like him for something like a mid-4′s ERA.

  366. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    It’s funny.

    For a Boston fan, back to back years of trips to the DL yields this comment:

    “I anticipate that Beckett will come back strong”.

    Then ask that same thing about Burnett, and he is an injury waiting to happen, or declining year to year.

    Beckett’s ERA has gone up and so have his trips to the DL. I dont see 2009 being different because you want it to.

  367. Mike R January 14th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    Andrew,

    “As for Jon Garland, he has said he prefers to pitch on the West Coast”

    Do you have a link to where he said that? I recall him pitching 8 years in Chicago without a complaint.

  368. Espresso January 14th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    Pitching depth should always be a concern. The rotation is deep through 4 spots, and there do seem to be enough kids waiting to maybe catch lightning in a bottle a couple of times this season, but a 5th starter seems to be in order. It would be fun to watch Hughes and Kennedy/Coke… get more starts (if they perform), and might work in keeping Joba under his limit too.

    I don’t think Sheets is the answer because what’s needed is a horse not a guy with ace stuff and injury questions. He would be worth an incentive heavy one year deal, and if he thinks he is healthy it would be a good idea from his standpoint too, like Pavano has done.

    Smoltz isn’t a starter anymore. He is slotted in the Sox rotation on the depth chart, but I seem to remember him saying he was done with starting. I don’t know about Penny. He has great stuff when healthy, but is he?

  369. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Ray
    Agreed. I was more posting in argument to the greatly less intelligent Boston fan trolling the blog. I believe Beckett will return to form and Lester will have a decent to very good year. Dice-BB will have to obviously work on control. I wonder if the strike zone is a bit looser in Japan, seriously.

    It just bothers me when fans have no objectivity. And it bother me more when those fans are allowed to convey their opinions on a grand stage such as ESPN (see Peter Gammons)

    All in all, the Yankees edge out the Sox, not by a ton, but by enough. If the Yankees sign a full fledged 4 or 5 innings eater, we have to be considered one of the top three, if not the top, rotation in the league.

  370. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    Ray: I generally agree that both Hughes and Buchholz still have a lot to prove (I can’t stand it when one is decried as a bust while the other is propped up as an example of their team successfully developing young talent – I’ll leave it to you to figure out which pitcher gets put in which position on ESPN :)
    But I do think it’s only fair to point out that Hughes does have a playoff win to his credit, and in an elimination game no less, and his performance down the stretch (Sept) in 07 was a huge part of the reason the Yankees even made the playoffs that year. Whereas Buchholz last year was pitching badly enough to COST the Red Sox a playoff spot if they had let him stay in the rotation. To me that is an important distinction, though the difference between what the two players have proven and still need to prove is still small.

  371. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    Tex’s New Best Friend
    January 14th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
    “It’s funny.

    For a Boston fan, back to back years of trips to the DL yields this comment:

    “I anticipate that Beckett will come back strong”.

    Then ask that same thing about Burnett, and he is an injury waiting to happen, or declining year to year.”

    Tex, you may have seen it from some other people but I have not been critical of the Burnett signing on here. I was hoping the Sox were going to sign him and think the Yankees were smart to pick him up.

  372. MaineYankee January 14th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    Cora is a good bench player but when he gets much reg. playing time his bat gets exposed. When Pedroia was struggling his first year fans wanted Cora to start, but when he got extended playing time they changed their mind.

  373. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    He doesn’t need a link. He’s right. Garland is from Orange County and is known throughout baseball as preferring to play on the West Coast.

    One of the reasons why he was traded from Chicago was that he informed Kenny Williams he wasn’t interested in signing a new deal with the White Sox. Preferring instead, to pitch on the West Coast.

    I don’t think Garland is a fit for NY. He’s not that good and isn’t that into the East Coast. Bad combination if you are looking for an arm.

  374. S.o.S. January 14th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    “is it to punish berorra for beating our soriano for rookie of the year?”

    I thought it was Mr.Sketch that he beat? I still say Matsui needs to get that R.O.Y. from Angel and in turn for a sketched picture of one.

  375. Mike R January 14th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    “Hughes: …Despite this, still put up a fielding-independent ERA in ‘08 that was .4 runs better than Garland’s (4.34 vs. 4.74). Projected by Bill James to pitch to a 3.35 ERA over 125 innings in 2009.”

    Hughes made 8 starts in 2008. That isn’t nearly enough to draw any statistical conclusions.

  376. GreenBeret7 January 14th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    kd
    January 14th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
    any thoughts as to why berrora over cora? i know cora makes double the money, but cora likely is a better player. is it to punish berorra for beating our soriano for rookie of the year?

    ————————————————————

    Berroa didn’t beat out Soriano. It was Matsui.

  377. EP January 14th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    The Yankee’s aren’t a charity organization. I hope they don’t give in to Andy’s demands because 10 million is being extremely generous.

    I just hope the Yankee’s keep making prudent business decisions on older players going forward. When Jeter is due for a new contract he better understand getting 23 million a year isn’t happening. Maybe half of that.

  378. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    “As for Jon Garland, he has said he prefers to pitch on the West Coast”

    Maybe someone here can help me, wasn’t there this other FA who everyone reported cared more about where he pitched than how much money he pitched for. God, what was his name. Started with initials, no periods though. Big fella…?

  379. kill.schill(ing) January 14th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    Here, Here Pete! Here, Here, my man.

    If you want a good laugh folks, listen to Lori Rubinson on XM Radio’s Home Plate with Charlie Steiner.

    Listening to hear opine about the Yankees is reminiscent of reading Alice in Wonderland.

    Here’s an unabashed Mets fans presuming to attribute to Yankees fans attitudes they don’t possess and pretending to be an objective analyst besides.

  380. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    Smoltz said yesterday at his PC he prefers to start. The Red Sox signed him to start.

    If he can’t start, that isn’t good news for the Red Sox.

  381. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    “Hughes: Age 22, near-historic great record in the minors, great stuff, doesn’t give up HRs. Plagued by injuries during first two seasons in MLB. Despite this, still put up a fielding-independent ERA in ‘08 that was .4 runs better than Garland’s (4.34 vs. 4.74). Projected by Bill James to pitch to a 3.35 ERA over 125 innings in 2009.”

    If the Yanks don’t sign Pettitte, Hughes is a perfectly acceptable way for the Yanks to go. Plenty of teams have won the World Series with a rookie or a journeyman for a fifth starter. The Yanks staff would still be excellent without getting an established veteran for the fifth pitcher. Sure there is risk but I think it’s manageable.

    If they don’t sign Pettitte, I still feel that Mike Cameron is the next best way to spend $10MM (in fact, maybe he’s even the best way to spend the money). The upgrade from Melky/Gardner to Cameron is huge.

  382. aron-baka January 14th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/01.....150139.htm

  383. five iron from fenway January 14th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Heyman has a post up stating the Yankees are among a few teams in the running to sign Freddy Garcia in the next few days.
    How good can Garcia be? How much can he pitch? Is he a 4-5 in the Yankees rotation.

  384. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    CC and Garland aren’t the same situation. CC Sabathia has never said he didn’t want to pitch on the East Coast.

    Jon Garland has told teams he doesn’t want to pitch in their areas, something CC never did.

    Could he end up somewhere other than the West Coast because he needs a job? Sure he can.

    However, find me a guy who isn’t that good and has to pitch somewhere he doesn’t want to be just to have a job, and I’ll show you an ineffective pitcher.

  385. Jayyyyy January 14th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    i think its really the wrong thing to still try and sighn andy petite. dont get me wrong the yankee’s do need pitching help, i think freddhy garcia and more proven vertrans with low risk high rewards would fit great in the yankees system. the reason why sighing Petit for more than 10 million is, if he has declined that it shows he is all about the money, which is a mindset you dont want your player to being n. im sure if Jeter was 40 and got an offer of 10 million from the Yankees and 15 from the Brewers he would take the Yankees offer. its called being faithful.

  386. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    I’ll be amused if I get to see a Beckett/Burnett pitching duel…

  387. Ed - American League, prepare to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 14th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    According to SI.com’s Jon Heyman, free agent starter **Freddy Garcia** “is expected to make a deal in coming days.” Heyman says the **Yankees**, Mets, Rangers, and White Sox are interested.

  388. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    also….Jon Garland could have voiced a preference for the West Coast at any time…it could have been last September, and of course he would have said that then, while pitching for a West Coast team who looked like they would win the WS.

    Or, he could actually have a genuine preference for the west coast, but the way the market is now, I’m not sure players are too worried about geography anymore. Remember how intent Derek Lowe was on pitching in the Northeast? So much for that. Oh, and wasnt there a certain Yankee pitcher who had a supposed affinity for Cali.? Didnt stop him from offering his services to the most interested employer… :)

  389. Corey M. January 14th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    id take freddy garcia over ben sheets any day of the week. Atleast he’s pitched in the AL his career, and actually has decent numbers for what would be a back of the rotation guy

  390. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    I was just going to post about Freddy Garcia.

    After looking at the available pitching list someone posted on here earlier, Garcia stood out to be as a “taking a flyer” candidate.

    He’s only 33, a bulldog, and he can probably give you 100-120 quality innings this year. The rest can be filled out by the kids.

    As a #5 starter, you could do worse, IMO. Won’t cost a ton of cash and between Garcia and the kids, you can get the innings you need in that spot.

    I’m glad the Yankees are considering him.

  391. kill.schill(ing) January 14th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Actually it’s Selena Roberts from the Times.

    For a reporter to pretend to authority on the Yankees and New York fan base and to express attitudes so directly at odds with their sentiment is almost surreal and so ignorant of the team’s economics was, I swear, like an exercise in following Alice through Wonderland.

    No wonder the Times’ Sports section sucks.

  392. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    “According to SI.com’s Jon Heyman, free agent starter Freddy Garcia “is expected to make a deal in coming days.” Heyman says the Yankees, Mets, Rangers, and White Sox are interested.”

    Another injured pitcher. When will they learn?

  393. kd January 14th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    gb, you’re right.

    rebecca, beckett v burnett would be awesome.

  394. ANSKY January 14th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Here’s what some people are worried about regarding the Sox rotation:

    Beckett – If healthy, can pitch very well. But he was aching last year. Probably more likely to go down than AJ, which of course may not be saying much.

    Dice-K – He’s a workhorse who was on hot streak for a while last year but he’s not a great pitcher. Maybe too much workload for him already… he’s in the WBC this year. He can be a out of the strike zone a lot.

    Lester – He’s becoming a pretty good pitcher. Hope he stays cancer free but his arm could get Proctorized because he’s the only guy besides Dice-K (so far) who hasn’t been hurt.

    Wakefield – Typically, knuckleballers usually have no better than a .550 W/L record (meaning he could go 13-11 if healthy) but he’s got a bad back and nobody who’s really considered a ‘knuckleball catcher’ to work with. While his back holds up at least he’ll eat innings for them. While it’s out, they have to rely on others.

    Smoltz – Had shoulder surgery 7 months ago and he’s 41? As an opponent, I’m real worried …. riiiiight.

    Tazawa – I know who he is, but what’s he actually done and against whom did he do it?

    Penny – Can be good but NY didn’t bother with him for a reason: His sore pitching shoulder.

    Schilling – Maybe they could sew a little red patch the shape of his blood stain on everyone’s right sock, but that would be his only contribution to the team this year.

  395. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    Freddy Garcia? Are you kidding?

  396. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    If the Yankees are serious about Garcia we may see Pettitte get religion soon – unless he realizes his best days are over anyway and decides that retirement is really his best option.

  397. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    In theory I’m actually not that opposed to a Freddy Garcia type guy but in practice, I remember his recent season with the Phillies and, um, yikes. I know he had serious surgery (TJ?) since then but dont recall what exactly his medical issues were. To those who do remember, what reason do we have to believe that his problems have been fixed and how effective do you see him being in 09?

  398. MaineYankee January 14th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    How is Garcia a low risk high reward when he hasn’t pitched a full season in at least 2 yrs?

  399. Andrew January 14th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    “Maybe someone here can help me, wasn’t there this other FA who everyone reported cared more about where he pitched than how much money he pitched for. God, what was his name. Started with initials, no periods though. Big fella…?”

    Clever, except I don’t see the correlation with a below-average back of the rotation starter and CC. Garland is drawing interest from people like the Mets and Brewers and Cardinals, but he was also apparently looking for a 2 or 3 year deal as of a month ago and now in this market, teams are going to try and shake him down for the fewest years. Going along that line I will refer the people who scoffed at the idea of him preferring the West Coast to this story in the LA Times that says that if Garland didn’t like the offers he was getting on the open market, he would consider going back to Anaheim on a 1-year deal:

    http://tinyurl.com/8gs3hw

  400. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    Weren’t we considering Freddy Garcia at the deadline last year?

  401. Patrick Bateman January 14th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    “Dice-K – He’s a workhorse”

    How is he a workhorse? He pitches 5 innings, then takes a seat.

  402. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    “How is Garcia a low risk high reward when he hasn’t pitched a full season in at least 2 yrs?”

    If NYY is looking at Garcia, they must plan on having Hughes pitch the rest of those games and then Kennedy or Aceves spell Joba once his innings limit has been reached. I doubt that they think they are getting 200 innings from Garcia.

  403. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    “Weren’t we considering Freddy Garcia at the deadline last year?”

    I wasn’t. :P

  404. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    “How is he a workhorse? He pitches 5 innings, then takes a seat.”

    :lol:

  405. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Freddy Garcia as a #5 for 2-5 million or Andy Pettitte at 10 million? That is, if Andy takes the 10 million. Something that he isn’t doing right now.

    Not really a tough call if you are the Yankees if they decide they can’t wait any longer on Pettitte.

    Could it be they are floating the story to move Pettitte off the dime?

    Or, could they actually be considering Garcia on a one year deal?

    No matter who they sign for that slot, its going to be a one year deal. Garcia is as good as anybody among the remaining one year options. If he is healthy, of course.

    They almost signed him last year when he went with the Tigers. Who knows, perhaps they feel he is healthier now than he was last year when he did his deal in Detroit.

  406. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    I’m not trolling….just an honest question.

    If you add Garcia to the rotation, how is the Yankee rotation that much different from the Red Sox one in terms of injury risk?

    You would have both Garcia and Burnett while the Sox have both Penny and Smoltz as the primary injury risks?

  407. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    Taking a flier on Garcia with a minor league contract and seeing what happens is one thing. Giving him a forty man roster spot and counting on him as part of the rotation is entirely another thing.

    If you think your rotation needs upgrading, then assuming Garcia will accomplish that seems a risky proposition to me.

  408. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    “How is Garcia a low risk high reward when he hasn’t pitched a full season in at least 2 yrs?”

    Because your number 5 guy doesn’t pitch a full season anyway and if necessary it could also give us a chance to take a look at some of our guys from down below.

  409. BD January 14th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    “Hughes made 8 starts in 2008. That isn’t nearly enough to draw any statistical conclusions.”

    Hughes’ 2008 is about the only reservation people have about starting him in the rotation. If 2008 never happened, would anyone really be complaining about slotting him 5th?

    “If they don’t sign Pettitte, I still feel that Mike Cameron is the next best way to spend $10MM (in fact, maybe he’s even the best way to spend the money). The upgrade from Melky/Gardner to Cameron is huge.”

    I agree with this completely. If no AP, put Hughes/Aceves in the 5 hole, take the money you would have spent on Pettitte and do the Cameron deal. Your pitching will probably be just as good, quite possibly even better, and your outfield will be better.

  410. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    “They almost signed him last year when he went with the Tigers. Who knows, perhaps they feel he is healthier now than he was last year when he did his deal in Detroit.”

    SJ44, didn’t Garcia leave Winter Ball with issues? That doesn’t sound too promising.

  411. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    “I’m not trolling….just an honest question.”

    ray, you can’t troll. Now that you’ve joined Yankees universe, your questions always pass the troll sniff test. :)

  412. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Rebecca: I think Garcia wasnt with a team at the deadline last year, but he had a pitching exhibition open to all interested teams around that time. IIRC the Yanks were interested & attended, just didn’t end up signing him. In the starts he did make with Detroit last yr, he was definitely decent – less hits than IP, etc…granted, a small sample size, but don’t pitchers usually only get better with time after these surgeries? I’d take his 2008 numbers from our 5th starter w/o complaint, but he might even do better than that.

    The more I think about this the more I like the idea, however the Yanks would have to have the option of taking Garcia out of the rotation if he was bad. I dont want them to be obligated to leave him in there to suck b/c of service time or whatever, so that would need to be a clause in his contract.

  413. Soulger January 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Straight up malarky.

    What the Yankees DON’T need is to thorw money at over prideful houston jackasses. Or any aging pitcher because unless they’re Mussina, it’s not gonna work out. I’d give Moose double jus to come back. But more importantly, how are any kids suppose to get innings much less expereice if the rotation is set at 5? even if 2 pitchers go on the 15 dl, thats 3 starts maybe 20 innings, then what? send them down? throw them to the bullpen? Why doesn’t anyone else get a shot jus cause Phil n I-ken boned it last year?

    Yankees got the best 4 in the league and a ton of talent to fill the 5 spot, injuries or not, they’re World Series bound

  414. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    I am obviously one of the few who aren’t apoplectic over the number 5 position. (But then stroking out over decisions out of my control has never been my style anyway. :D )

    If we sign a “veteran” we do. If we go with one of our kids, so we do. I really believe it will be all good and that the Yankees spend a lot of time thinking about this so that we can feel we are in very good hands no matter what they do.

    Just my opinion of course. I think people have the right to stroke out over whatever they want to.

    Just sayin’

    :D

  415. RustyS January 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Tim Clougher- your comments are absurd! you expect the yankees to sign EVERYONE? What they have is more than enough and will field an exceptional team. The ONLY thing they really need is a 5th starter who will eat innings. Time to go to bed TIM!

  416. bru January 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Eric Bousquet

    what happens if becket is out for the year,talk last year about concern about serious injury.what happens if buchholz & masterson don’t pan out,wake has a bad back,what happens if he is out half the year,smoltz can’t get over his injury & penney is a disaster???

    you can spin anything you wan’t but the yankees rotation is greatly improved & we will get another pitcher.

    lowell,drew,ortiz,ellsbury all question marks & they have no catcher so if they trade for one it will cost big time.

    just because people say things does not make it reality.

    with cc,wang,burnett,joba the yankees can be downright nasy.they can also lose 3 pitchers & finish in 4th place but the same goes with the red sox.

    all we have to go by is numbers & the numbers say that we finished 5 or so games behind the sox in 08 & added cc,tex,burnett,we get posada,matsui,wang back wich tells me that boston is in trouble.

  417. jennifer January 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Speaking of winter ball. Last week someone said Melky got drilled in the elbow. What is his status?

  418. nick January 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Are you kidding Do you realize that the problem was not the yankees pitching.. if you look back at all the games they lost they didnt hit when it count. they came in like 9th in runs scored. and with bobby and jason leaving and all they brought in was mark you think thats going to make a diff? no yanks need another hitter one way or another.. they need manny and manny needs the yankeees. he would he great and esp when we play boston he would kill them.. i say yanks forget about andy and go get manny..

  419. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    BD: Hughes has had what, one full, healthy season since 2005?

    He’s only 22 but he is quickly developing an injury-prone reputation and that has a lot of people wary.

  420. Ed - American League, prepare to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 14th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    Jennifer,

    the x-rays came out negative.

  421. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    Ray,

    Burnett is much less an injury question than Smoltz and Penny. He was one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball last year. He wasn’t hurt last year and hasn’t had surgery of any kind since his TJ Surgery of 5 years ago.

    If the Yankees signed Garcia, yes, the back end of the rotation is as questionable as Boston’s.

    Problem is, the fanboys in the media like Peter Gammons feel the Sox rotation doesn’t possess question marks. That’s where their arguments fall off the rails.

    I don’t think anybody on here would say Garcia wouldn’t be a question mark if the Yankees signed him. He would be the same, “take a flyer signing”, that Boston has had the past couple of weeks.

  422. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    “You would have both Garcia and Burnett while the Sox have both Penny and Smoltz as the primary injury risks?”

    both Garcia and Burnett (I almost wrote Garnett, ha) are ready to pitch as of now though, no? Smoltz isn’t an injury risk, he’s already injured. Whether a pitcher can GET healthy is a lot bigger of a risk than whether a currently healthy one can stay healthy, especially when the former pitcher is 41 years old and coming off labrum surgery.

  423. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    I think we should stroke out a check for Manny..:)

  424. Corey M. January 14th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    “Garcia update: Shoulder tightness
    MRI results on free agent Freddy Garcia’s arm revealed no structural damage, just tightness in his throwing shoulder. That dispels an earlier report from a Venezuelan paper that stated he would miss four months with a biceps injury.

    Garcia’s agent, Peter Greenberg, said Friday evening that Garcia will go on a throwing program and hopefully return to action in two weeks. That would give him a few more starts in winter ball and at least a few more looks in front of Major League scouts before the Venezuelan League’s regular season ended. In any case, that will likely leave the free agent on the market heading past the holiday season.

    Garcia also had shoulder tightness that knocked him out of Detroit’s regular season finale Sept. 29 and slowed his throwing program in preparation for winter ball. MRI results in October were also negative.”

    -Jason Beck of the MLBlogs Hot Stove

  425. bleedin pinstripes since 85 January 14th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    ive been a yankee fan my whole 24 years on this earth … so for a bulk of my youth andy was my guy … after the whole mattingly era was coming to a close andy was a god in ny … now as far as the 5th rotation spot … that has 2 go 2 joba … and any has to be part of a winning yankee team again b4 he call its a career … the way i would do the rotation if i was the mgr is like this … CC Wang Aj Andy Joba …. i put aj 3rd because i feel hes more injury prone than the other guys and having wang follow cc is more comfortable for me … wang has the 3rd highest amount of wins in the AL in the last 3 seasons when u go by houw many starts hes made … he deserves that 2nd slot … as far as hughes getting that 5th spot …. hell nooo …. hes better and more reliable than kennedy ….kennedy needs 2 go use his as trade bait … package him and swish cuz god only knows why we wood want a 1st baseman in tha outfield to hit bat 230 wen we hav a natural outfielder who hit 305 with 1 less homerun split in 2 leagues last year … ship those two to someone …. and get a decent starter …. keep nady …. but the fact is u CANNOT go in2 the AL east with 1 lefty … thats lunacy …. there has 2 b diversity …. pettitte is a lefty home grown yankee with the best post season stats and experience u could want and the fans love him the media and him get along well … he wouldnt be the circus that signing lets say ….. mannny …. sheets is injury prone and i dont feel having another injury prone guy other than aj in tha roto is a good idea longevity wise …. i like perez he kills us in tha interleague play hes young and hes a lefty …. he also only plays across the bridge which helps cuz the media duzznt change …. and yes the media matters …. randy johnson is 1 of tha top 5 pitchers of all time … cracked in NY same with Kevin Brown …. if andy duzznt come back than get ollie …. hes a 4 he duzznt hav 2 b superman he has 2 b an innings eater…. we arent lookin 4 a cy young here …. my personal pref would be to send kennedy melky and maybe aceves to san diego and make peavy an offer that would make him b willing 2 sell his soul 2 play in the AL thats the only way id b ok with a rotation with only 1 lefty …. jus picture it … cc wang peavy aj joba ….. but since thats a pipedream … andy come backkkkk illl pay tha differenceeeeee

  426. rodg12 January 14th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    I’m down for taking a flyer on Garcia. Couldn’t hurt. Same approach the Sox are taking with Penny/Smoltz. Hopefully Gammons calls the move ‘cunning’ or ‘genius’ and waxes poetic about how good he’s throwing and how good he’s been in the AL in the past.

  427. Jay Hirsch January 14th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    Why commit now to an aging veteran who may not have it anymore? The yankees can afford to wait until the trading deadline and add a pitcher who you know is pitching well.

  428. Corey M. January 14th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    Kennedy, Cabrera, Swisher, Nady for Greinke and DeJesus….get it done. lol

  429. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    “I think we should stroke out a check for Manny..:)”

    Tim, I admire your dedication to your position. You’re dead wrong on this, but still – can’t say you aren’t committed.

  430. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    BBB: Well put.

  431. Boy who blocked his own shot January 14th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    I think us Yankee fans have a John Stamos complex. I’ve come to those conclusion while watching an episode of full house while I should be doing something productive.

    As I see it Ben Sheets is Uncle Jesse ( John Stamos ). He is the cool rock star, with feathered hair and spotty history. He’s enigmatic one, with a fast ball to wow us, ad a high k rate to appease our stat obsession. However he’s oftentimes injured and unreliable. But Hey, the fact that he’s spent so much time on the dl probably only makes him more dangerous and therefore more loveable. Dangerous people are cool.

    Where as Andy Pettitte is more of a Danny Tanner ( Bob Saget ) type. He’s not really distinct, average features. He’s pretty boring type, who’s just not too interesting to us jaded New Yorkers. The only thing you can really hold against Andy is and HGH use, which I think is forgivable, especially since he admitted it. Anyway, as I see it, he’s reliable. Well, mostly reliable, last year was kind of rocky.

    Still I think I’d take 200+ innings from Andy, with about 70-to-80 bad innings than 100+ innigs from sheets, and not to mention, realistically being in the AL, I’d assume he’d have a big ERA in those 100+ inings and tax are bullpen by going short. Then he’d inevitably be on the DL, the same people demanding Sheets would be the same people lining up to say what a horrible GM Brian Cashman is.

    As far as 5th starter goes, given our rotation, I think I’d give Hughes, Kennedy, Coke, etc a shot. Acquiring salary dump 5th starters, or grabbing people off waivers mid-season isn’t that hard. Or, just give me Andy — I think we’ve bee spoiled with sexy picks this year in Tex, Brunet & Sabathia. Kind of shocked people even want Manny still to tell you the truth.

    Anyway, I just felt the urge to speak about my full house theory.

  432. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    “I think we should stroke out a check for Manny..:)”

    :lol:

    I think we have a team that totally rocks. In fact I thought we did before Tex. Our Yankees didn’t take us this far to pull a “duh” at the last minute and decide to watch Soap Operas and then toss a coin in the air once the season starts and they have to choose a 5th starter.

  433. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    Laura;

    I was using Trisha’s post for the “stroke” except I want it to be a check for Manny…

    Just sayin’ :)

  434. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    I would love as the “club house burns” staring Manny…

  435. Sal Cipriano January 14th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    Ray, I wouldn’t worry, I think JoeyA was talking about me, the new guy, the Sheets lover! I’m pretty sure I’m a Yankee fan, though, and my intelligence level is up to par, but I can’t please ‘em all! If it’s not me, I apologize to all for taking up this space.

  436. Tim Clougher January 14th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    Honestly we are great how we are, if we get another starter that would be terrific, and only IMO if they did get Manny, (I doubt it) they would be unstoppable…

  437. ANSKY January 14th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    “Dice-K – He’s a workhorse …. How is he a workhorse? He pitches 5 innings, then takes a seat.”

    Well, maybe he throws 100-120 pitches in those 5 innings (sometimes 6 & occasionally 7) even though he sits down because he’s walked 6 guys and two men are on base but at least he has the lead. He hasn’t been hurt, so he doesn’t need someone else to step up & take his turn in the rotation.

    I agree there’s a BIG difference between that kind of workhorse and a CC, a vintage Pettitte or a pre-injury Wang who frequently could go into the 7th or 8th giving up 2-3 runs. But at least Dice-K was consistent about going 6 more often than almost all of the pitchers the Yanks ran out there last year.

  438. GreenBeret7 January 14th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    ray (sox fan)
    January 14th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
    I’m not trolling….just an honest question.

    If you add Garcia to the rotation, how is the Yankee rotation that much different from the Red Sox one in terms of injury risk?

    You would have both Garcia and Burnett while the Sox have both Penny and Smoltz as the primary injury risks?

    ————————————————————

    After that crack about my not looking good in skirts, I outta shred you, but, you have promise as a Yankee fan, so, I’ll take it easy.

    You’re right, Ray….signing Garcia is a tire patch for the Yankee rotation. I’m not sure he’d any less of a risk than Smoltz. He didn’t show much late last year, and, he’s never impressed me. The logical choice would be one year of Pettitte. If the Yanks offered 10 mil plus incentives, I figure he’d sign, but, NYY don’t offer player incentives, often. This is one time that I’d make an exception.

    By the wy….how’s the (sox fan) family? All is well, I hope.

  439. Al from BK January 14th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    MLBTR says Freddy Garcia is going to sign within the next few days I hope Cash takes a flier on a guy who eats innings and gets a lot of groundballs.

  440. jim January 14th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    from sporting news fantasy baseball 09

    garland – “garland has always pitched to contact, but his first season with the angels was excessive. he posted his worst full-season of era of his career and was barely relevent in the majors the 2nd half”

    garcia – “garcia has not been the same since hurting his shoulder in 2006 world baseball classic. he returned from shoulder injury late last season with detroit and , while he was successful, his velocity remained where it was when he was ineffective more recently”

    pettitte – “pettite has at least 14 wins in four straight seasons, but the last time he posted a sub 4.00 era as a yankee was 2002. he pitched ok even though fantasy owners devalued him following the HGH controversy in spring training, but a poor 2nd half could be a sign that his age is catching up”

    perez – “perez saved his season in a contract year by posting a sub 4.00 era during the 2nd half with more than a strikeout per inning. Inconsistant mechanics make control his weakness, but he’s overcome that with more than 8 strikeouts eight strikeouts per nine innings in every season of his career”

    sheets – “sheets made 30 starts for the 1st time since 2004, but his season ended with a muscle tear near his elbow. he has kept his era below 4.00 in each of last 5 seasons, but his strikout rate has been down in each of his last 2 seasons. sheets is one of the best pitchers in the game when healthy , but make sure you have a backup plan”

    If I had to pick one of these 5 , this would be the order

    perez , young healthy strikeouts lefty 12 million + years
    pettite , lefty 13 million 1 year
    sheets , affordable , risky potential ace 7 million 1 year
    garland – innings eater , no factor in post season 3 million 1 yr
    garcia – at gunpoint 1 million 1 yr

  441. Boy who blocked his own shot January 14th, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    I think Manny should just retire and try to join Manuto. That way he can’t hit clutch home runs against us, or ruin our locker room chemsitry.

  442. bleedin pinstripes since 85 January 14th, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    sorry for all the type-o’s i did this on my G1 …. im not really illiterate lol

  443. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    My White Sox buddies told me that the White Sox are in talks with LAA to send Jermaine Dye to LAA for Chone Figgins. If I’m LAA, no way I do that deal. Dye is a good player, but he’s no CF. Figgins can hurt you in some many ways. I’d be surprised if that deal goes through.

  444. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Just as long as Figgins stays out of the AL East.

  445. Bill January 14th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    I think you give the spot to Aceves. The kid threw 30 innings to a 2.40 ERA. A low amount of BBs and earned runs as well. He’s not an injury risk at all. He threw a few gems at the end of last year against the jays and Sox.

    Phil Hughes needs more time to develop outside of the Winter League and a few weeks at Scranton will benefit him. Kennedy is much further behind, and Coke is and ideal long man out of the pen. Garcia is used up and will get injured early on, guaranteed. Guys fresh off a short year always do.

  446. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    We have a great rotation of guys to use the 5 spot and sometimes a 6 man rotation. One week it can be Hughes, then Kennedy, Coke, Aceves. They dont have to depend on one of them all the time. See which one sticks. I think Aceves will stick and Hughes will come up in May or June and carry through the playoffs.

  447. Betsy January 14th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotsto…rry&id=3831930

    Finally, what seems to be a fair appraisal of the Red Sox. Normally, we see this type of article only when the Yankees make these kinds of signings.

    As to the blog topic, LOL Pete. You sure have a lot of confidence in Penny for a guy with mediocre #s who isn’t healthy……and I don’t think I need to remind you that Smoltz (a) is coming back from surgery and (b) won’t be pitching at least until June.

    I personally think the Yankees need a veteran starter in the 5th spot, but I would hardly call having an open competition in spring training unacceptable. If necessary, they can make a mid-season move. Unless Pete can read minds, he has no idea what Cashman is thinking right now. For all we know, Cash is very likely reviewing his options with regards to pitchers like Mulder, etc… Let’s not make it out like Cashman is twiddling his thumbs.

    Responding to some other posts, the rotation is a big concern? I think some of us just have too much time on our hands. There’s nothing better to do, so we have to imagine the worst.

  448. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    “Just as long as Figgins stays out of the AL East.”

    It’s too bad that we don’t have a spot for him. I doubt LAA would trade him to us anyway.

  449. MaineYankee January 14th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    Garcia had surgery on his shoulder in 07 and is still having issues with tightness. I am more concerned that he could be healthy to pitch enough to take up a roster spot. Seems like a risk I wouldn’t like taking.

  450. steve January 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    garcia would be a great addition

  451. GreenBeret7 January 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Laura
    January 14th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
    My White Sox buddies told me that the White Sox are in talks with LAA to send Jermaine Dye to LAA for Chone Figgins. If I’m LAA, no way I do that deal. Dye is a good player, but he’s no CF. Figgins can hurt you in some many ways. I’d be surprised if that deal goes through.

    ————————————————————

    The Angels have shot that deal down, saying that there is no interest in Dye. There’s the notes from MLB-Rumors-R-Us.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Angels Do Not Have Interest In Dye
    By Ben Jones [January 14 at 12:51am CST]
    WEDNESDAY: Bill Shaikin talked to Angels GM Tony Reagins, who shot down Cowley’s Dye rumor. Reagins said, “No truth to that rumor.” Reagins apparently hasn’t talked to the White Sox for a while, though Shaikin’s source indicated the Angels did express interest in Dye before they re-signed Juan Rivera.

    MONDAY: The Los Angeles Angels have interest in Chicago White Sox outfielder Jermaine Dye, Joe Cowley of the Chicago Sun-Times reports.

    According to a major-league scout, the Angels are the latest team to express interest in acquiring Dye now that the Mark Teixeira ship has set sail to New York. Unlike the talks with the Cincinnati Reds that stalled during the Winter Meetings, the Sox and Angels actually have a fit, Cowley wrote.

    Cowley speculates that the White Sox would want Chone Figgins in return. Figgins could play third base and lead off for Chicago.

    Cowley also notes that the Angels have a surplus of outfielders, but the Angels want to add protection in the lineup for Vladimir Guerrero and Torii Hunter.

    Cowley’s source also said the Angels do not like the rest of the free-agent outfield market and do not want to be pawns in the on-going Manny Ramirez saga.

    The Angels are not one of the teams listed on Dye’s no-trade list, Cowley writes.

  452. Andrew January 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    I wouldn’t say that Kennedy is “much further behind” Hughes. In terms of stuff yes, but in terms of getting major league hitters out, if Kennedy is throwing a 3rd pitch consistently he has enough to be a #5 guy at the ML level. He just doesn’t have the same upside as Phil. Supposedly, though, he tweaked his curve with his former USC coach, so maybe that will help him whenever he re-emerges in the majors. Bottom line you can’t say that he’s a total afterthought, he’s still in the mix.

  453. Boy who blocked his own shot January 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Do you think if Jeter & Figgins had a foot race by compariso Jeter would look like a turtle running through peanut butter with flip-flops?

    I just wanted to get it in on the exaggerated critiscm of Jeter from the last thread.

    I actually think Dye/Figgins is a fair deal. Dye is pretty steady with numbers, Figgins BA could vanish on him again then he’s still dangerous and fun to watch, but I think the trade eves out if that’s the case.

  454. nick January 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    YANKS ARE NOT ALRIGHT IN THE HITTING AREA.. YOU HAVE DAMON JETER TEXIERA AROD NADY POSADA MATSUI CANO MELKY.. LIKE HONESTLY AFTER 1-4 WHO ARE YOU FEARING? A HURT POSADA AND MATSUI? A CANO WHO KNOS IF HES GONNA HIT. MELKY O MAN LETS NOT TALK ABOUT HIM.. NADY I CAN SAY IS GOOD SO MAYBE 1-5 BUT LETS BET SERIOUS PONSON AND THESE OTHER GUYS WHO PICTCHED LAST YEAR DID DECENT AND WERE PITCHING GOOD GAMES. IF THE OFFENSE HIT A LITTLE MORE WE OULD HAVE WON ALOT OF MORE GAMES.

  455. rodg12 January 14th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Betsy -

    For some reason that link isn’t working for me. Any way you could tinyurl it?

  456. Gary January 14th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    The ideal setup for the starting rotation should be Sabathia, Wang, Burnett, Pettitte, and Joba. Hughes should be kept ready at AAA and Aceves should be given every effort to be the long reliever / spot starter.
    This allows for any starter missing a turn due to a minor injury.
    If the standings in late August show the Yankees in good position, Hughes or others can eat some innings to keep the regular starters fresher for the postseason.

  457. BD January 14th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    “Hughes has had what, one full, healthy season since 2005?”

    So has Wang.

    And isn’t it a bit tendentious to say “since 2005″ with respect to Hughes? When the 2005 baseball season began, Hughes was only 18 years old and wasn’t even in Single A yet.

  458. Laura January 14th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    I look forward to telling my friends that the Dye-Figgins deal was a bad rumor. It will be their punishment for their anti-Yankee sentiment this off season.

  459. ray (sox fan) January 14th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    “You’re right, Ray….signing Garcia is a tire patch for the Yankee rotation. I’m not sure he’d any less of a risk than Smoltz. He didn’t show much late last year, and, he’s never impressed me. The logical choice would be one year of Pettitte. If the Yanks offered 10 mil plus incentives, I figure he’d sign, but, NYY don’t offer player incentives, often. This is one time that I’d make an exception.

    By the wy….how’s the (sox fan) family? All is well, I hope”

    I agree with you GB and I would be a little surprised if your Yankees actually do sign Garcia. As I posted earlier it would make sense to me for Pettite to pitch one more year for you guys.

    Almost seems like it is a matter of saving face right now, and I think if the Yankees offered say a million more than the ten million original offer Pettite might go for that. A million or two is not much in the big scheme of things.

    The family is doing well, thank you GB. I hope your family and friends are well too.

  460. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    Betsy: The article you linked to came up “file not found”…perhaps ESPN decided it was TOO fair an appraisal of the Red Sox! Can’t have any of that there, ya know. :)

  461. five iron from fenway January 14th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    I think the Garcia is just another example of Cashman checking in on everything this season. I am glad he is linked to everybody (and probably to plenty of people we will never hear about).

  462. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    IMO, The Yankees should have a veteran on this pitching staff, one way or another. The one thing I do give Boston is, if Smoltz is healthy and they make it into October, he is not someone I think I would want to face. Even with the surgeries, the guy would be pitching for a contending team at that point, obviously, and has added incentive to prove he still has it. Imagine Smoltz as an option to come in as a long reliever.

    Nick,
    2 things you must realize,

    A.typing in caps doesn’t make your point any more important.
    2. we replaced Giambi, who was considered a huge offensive weapon last year, with Teixeira. Cano had an off year and is slated for a comeback season. Nothing in his history would point to him not being a 300+ hitter. Do you really believe something is wrong with him, as opposed to, he just lost some mechanics last season. It seems we are going to trade one of Nady or Swisher, or both and i doubt Cashman would make that deal without getting a bat, either from that trade or elsewhere.

    The offseason isn’t over and we are still hearing rumors of a deal with Swish/Nady. Trust in the Cash. They didn’t put 420M if they were gonna lose to lack of offense.

  463. GreenBeret7 January 14th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    nick
    January 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
    WHO ARE YOU FEARING?

    ————————————————————

    The only thng to fear is fear itself….and an attack by capital letters.

    Other than that, your thoughts are those of a clownish troll.

  464. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    Betsy, re: your post but not the link (apparently) – I love you style girl!

    ;)

  465. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Wave your Hat:

    I dunno, I’d be kind of cool with Figgins on the Yankees.

  466. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    I really need to give a shout out to the new MLB TV network. They really are doing a tremendous job. If they can stay at this quality level I think ESPN and Gammons will find themselves broadcasting from CHEERS.

  467. BBock727 January 14th, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    I obviously didnt read all 400 posts, but I got the gist of what everyone has been saying before me.

    Explain to me why a pitching staff of CC Sabathia, A.J.Burnett, Chien-Ming Wang, Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy, Alfredo Aceves, Jason Johnson, Dan Giese, Kei Igawa can’t be the opening day, and hopefully at least the day after the All-Star break starters for a championship team?

    First, CC, AJ, Wang, Chamberlain (I wish he was in the bullpen) and Hughes is arguably the best staff in baseball. I like Hughes numbers during the offseason, and I would greatly emphasize that this guy was regarded as the best pitching prospect in baseball only 2-3 years ago.

    At some point, the Yankees do not need a proven All-Star in every position.

    Take a look at the Yankee rotation for 1998, the pitching staff for arguably the best baseball team ever assembled:
    AGE GAMES ERA WINS LOSSES
    Andy Pettitte 26 33 4.24 16 11
    David Cone 35 31 3.55 20 7
    David Wells 35 30 3.49 18 4
    Hideki Irabu 29 29 4.06 13 9
    Orlando Hernandez 32 21 3.13 12 4

    That season, you had less than par regular season from Andy Pettitte, an unproven Hideki Irabu (who wasn’t as bad as I remember), and an aging Orlando Hernandez who mostlikely was really 37 at the time and not 32. Now these were the pitchers who won a championship as well as 114 regular season games.

    I definately think that our current pitching staff could perform close to what this pitching staff did, even with a rotating 5th starter. Remember, odds are that the Yankees win the East or at least make it in the playoffs if Wang pitches the whole season (last i checked he wasnt injury prone). That would have been without the additions of CC and Burnett.

    That being said, I would gladly take Pettitte back for another year. I would even give him 12M to return. I believe he has earned that money, since a lot of championship years he was underpaid on the Yankee staff, 3.3M in 1998, where Cone made close to 7M. If Pettitte does come back, I would definately throw him in as the 5th Starter and possibly skip a few starts for him and Joba. Someone is bound to get hurt throughout a season, but i think a combination of the rest of the staff can plug in innings. Last year was a freak year where the Yankees were required to have 2 pitching staffs due to injuries, not just have a few inning eaters throughout the year.

    Again, the point I want to make is that our rotation is by no means subpar, and is definitely on the same level as Boston’s and even Tampa’s. We do not need to trade for a Jake Peavy, over pay for Oliver Perez or Ben Sheets. People need to stop panicing. I predict that this years lineup will be a juggernaut, with Cano, Melky, Matsui and Posada having decent years.

    Lets not panic as Yankee fans, it’ll be a great year in the new ballpark!

  468. Chris January 14th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    How are Nick’s thoughts making him a clownish troll? Granted the capitalization was over the top, but, he’s right. Offense is why we lost last year. And we lost 40 homers and 200 rbi in Giambi and Abreu. We added Tex, which is a good upgrade over Giambi, but I don’t believe Posada is gonna be able to play a full season behind the plate, I don’t think Matsui’s knee to hold up to DH for 150+ games. Jeter was nothing more than a single’s hitter last year and that trend will seemingly continue with his age going up. Our offense is the issue, we need another hitter, because we can’t expect Matsui, Cano, Posada to have bounce back years, just like we can’t expect them to not. It just seems like we’re headed for a lot more 3 – 2 losses, like last year.

  469. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 14th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    nick, I read your post and respect your right to post any way you want to and feel what you feel. You are not the only Yankee fan who felt that the Yankee offense was shaky. Even though I may not agree with the thoughts, I do think your posts add as much value as anybody else’s and would encourage you to continue with your thoughts and remain open to any kind of dialogue. Maybe you might think differently at some point, maybe not. But it doesn’t make your thinking any less valid.

    Trisha

  470. Larz January 14th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    I’m with Bill.

    Aceves will be our #4 starter coming out of ST.

  471. Anthony January 14th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    ““Hughes has had what, one full, healthy season since 2005?”

    So has Wang.

    And isn’t it a bit tendentious to say “since 2005” with respect to Hughes? When the 2005 baseball season began, Hughes was only 18 years old and wasn’t even in Single A yet.”

    Wang? He won 19 games in 2006 and 2007, I would call that two healthy seasons. We really cannot compare Hughes to Wang at this point. Wang is a number one on any team without CC, Johan, or Halladay.

  472. JoeyA January 14th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    BBock727-
    That Pettitte year looks like something I would expect from Hughes this year, with Pettitte like progress going forward.

    That being said, I still think with a guy like Joba, who will be carefully watched, you can’t count him as a #4. You need a guy who can eat innings an give you an ERA 4-4.5. I would like to see the innings totals for those 5 guys.

    Hernandez was 56. Everyone knows that.

  473. Blog Master G January 14th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    Pete is right. You need depth in the rotation. You can NEVER have enough solid pitching. When was the last time an entire Yankee rotation went through a season without injury. The Yankees should plan on a solid 6 man rotation just in case.

  474. Rishi January 14th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    I think this is the article…

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3831930

  475. Doreen January 14th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    kill.schill(ing) -

    I can’t listen to Steiner anymore. I can’t believe he used to work for the Yankees. I wonder what the history is.

    At any rate, at least once a day he makes a point of grilling the Yankees with any and every reporter he interviews that particular day. He doesn’t need to have a NY person on. Baltimore, LA, Milwaukee. Whatever. The conversation ALWAYS gets around to the “big bad Yankees.” Steiner seems to relish it.

    Seriously, I would love to know what prompted his exit from NY.

  476. BD January 14th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    I like CMW a great deal. However, I don’t think he’d be considered a #1 pitcher in Boston or TB.

    As for his health, I believe 2006 was the only year he didn’t spend on the DL. 2007 was still a successful year for him, just as all of Hughes’ seasons in the minors were successful.

    Anyway, the point is not that Hughes is as good a bet as Wang to succeed in the Yankees’ rotation this year. It’s that he’s a better choice for #5 than a Garland, Perez, or Garcia would be.

  477. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    Rebecca, I’d love to have Figgins. He can play anywhere.

    I just don’t want any of our AL East opponents to get him.

  478. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    With 6 outfielders, Girardi will be sure to spell Matsui to keep his legs fresh, same with Damon, and as a former catcher, knows he will have to work Posada back into form, meaning he will get days off fairly often too. I am a believer you dont need to score 1000 runs to win a division.

  479. BD January 14th, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    By the way, isn’t “injury prone” becoming about the most overused term in baseball? What does it even mean? The fact that someone has been injured multiple times doesn’t necessarily mean they are prone to injury. They could just be unlucky. The only people who should really be considered “prone” to injury are the ones with some existing damage that will never heal and/or some problem with their mechanics that makes further injury inevitable. And the first group should really be described not as “injury prone” but rather simply “injured.”

  480. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Anthony: I wasn’t comparing Hughes to Wang, at all.

    And I did say that Hughes is only 22.

    My point was simply that there’s a reason fans have gotten contentious with Hughes-though that does *not* make it right.

    Wave Your Hat: Yeah, thought so :)

  481. Braintrust January 14th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    Yankee fans need to be objective on this board. I know that Sox fans come on here, and talk smack…whatever. But I’m a lifelong Yankee fan, and made some objective comments about our rotation not being as proven as the Sox rotation, and I’m getting jumped on. Believe me, I’m still sick after 2004, and would like nothing other than to punish the Sox, and their fans with the gift of a post season humiliation. But the reality is that Boston has had the upper hand since 2004, plus two world series, and the Yankees have had a revolving door of has-beens, and never was players embarassing the Pinstripes. I know that Beckett has been rocked, and was bad last year in the post season, but who would you rather have in the big spot? Beckett or Wang? Until Sabathia or Burnett prove they can do it in October, like Arod, the Sox have the Edge. Getting fat paychecks doesn’t mean anything unless you win those eleven games in October. And the only Yankees on the roster who have done it are Jeter, Rivera, and Posada. The rest of them have to earn their Stripes.

  482. Wave Your Hat January 14th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    Rebecca, among my many failings, I take things too literally. :)

  483. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 14th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Just wanted to introduce my new tagline.

  484. RayVTNC January 14th, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    Every year it is the same thing! Boston seems invincible & the Yankees always have question marks! The RSox use to always fold around August, while the Yankees picked up steam as the season progressed. The same thing happened last year, only the Yankees didn’t have enough steam to overtake a floudering RSox team.

    The RSox lost Manny! Perhaps Ortiz! Varitek! Crisp! And have questions in their pitching staff.

    The Yankees lost Giambi & Abreu & Mussina. The Yankees effectively gained Wang, Matsui, Nady, Marte & Posada. The Yanks added CC, AJ, Tex, & Swisher. Offensively, the Yanks should be much better already than last year. Pitching should be much better as well.

    Tex>Giambi
    Swisher & Nady>Abreu
    Posada> Molina & Crew
    CC>Moose
    Wang>Pettite
    AJ>Ponson
    Joba 09>Joba 08
    Acevedo/Hughes>Karsten

    Lastly, who thinks the Yankee players in March/April will all be the same ones in Sept/Oct? They never are!

    That said, I expect 2 more signings. (Pettite or Sheets or O Perez) & Manny! I just believe the Yankees are waiting for the bottom dollar to present itself before they sign them. Also, I think the Yankees want the 40 man roster to be used as a trade value & not a DFA.

  485. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 14th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Wave Your Hat: Hah, and I don’t know gullible is not in the dictionary!

  486. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Boy who blocked his own shot: I love the Full House comparisons in your 2:54 post, classic! Except I would argue that AJ Burnett is more of an Uncle Jesse type than Sheets. And even though he’s retired now, Moose is Joey Gladstone, except with less obvious humor.

    You could probably have some fun with the Yankee hitters as the Saved by the Bell guys, too – Jeter and A-Rod = Zack Morris and Slater, respectively…

  487. YankeeRay January 14th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Tex’s New Best Friend
    January 14th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
    With 6 outfielders, Girardi will be sure to spell Matsui to keep his legs fresh, same with Damon, and as a former catcher, knows he will have to work Posada back into form, meaning he will get days off fairly often too. I am a believer you dont need to score 1000 runs to win a division.

    —–

    I don’t think Matsui will be playing much OF. The fact that Posada will have to rest and take up the DH spot on occasion is even more fuel to sign Manny.
    I’d rather have Manny at DH and sit Posada all together on occasion than have Matsui/Posada and Molina in the line up. I’d also rather play Manny in LF against a tough lefty and rest Damon while Molina is in the line up and DH Posada.
    I just see more options with Manny than without and obviously a much stronger line up with him hitting 5th.

  488. Jonathan A. (Got Accepted To Penn State WOO!!!) January 14th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    This shows we need someone to fill the 4th spot in the rotation, most likely Andy Pettitte, after he comes to his senses and see’s the Yankees 10 million dollar offer is probably the best he will get.

  489. Tex's New Best Friend January 14th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    RayVTNC

    Don’t say bad things about the Sox or Peter Gammons will hunt you down like a dog and tell you how great the sox are, healthy and all. Only thing that matters is Ortiz is breaking down, and that is worse than any one player we can lose.

  490. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 14th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    Jonathan A – Congratulations! Plan to spend plenty of time cracking the books!!!

  491. RayVTNC January 14th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    YankeeRay

    I totally agree!

  492. Espresso January 14th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    The offense was inconsistent last year. Tex addresses much of that. Cano was downright terrible so there is a lot of room for improvement. If he moves back towards what he has shown in his short career he will also help in that area. If Posada is healthy enough to stay in the lineup he improves that as well. he doesn’t have to reproduce 2007 to make the offense more productive.

    Giambi is the model of inconsistency. He could turn into a black hole in the middle of the order. He ended the year with decent HR and RBI numbers but he was terrible at hitting in so called “clutch” situations. Abreu’s bat will be missed more. Obviously he has less power, but he consistently hits.

    Matsui is a question mark. If he can stay healthy now he is also a very consistent hitter. I think his power numbers might fall off if his legs are a bit weaker, but he should make the lineup deeper than last years.

    This offense will produce more runs over the course of the season. It will do it by having less 1,2,3 run games. They may have less 8,9,10 run games, but that is irrelevant, especially with the pitching staff as it is. This team is going to win a lot of games. It may not win as many as the 1998 Yankees, but I think cause that same feeling of inevitability that team did. Like a tank rolling through a lego village.

  493. RayVTNC January 14th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    Tex’s New Best Friend

    Thanks for the Warning! LOL! I believe RSox are looking hard to find a backup for Ortiz & are hoping Drew/Bay can somehow replace Manny. WOW! Scary thought for a RSox fan. That is why Tex hurt them so much! Now I believe Fielder will be an RSox soon.

  494. Dave January 14th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    Anthony,

    Just because wang won 19 twice doesnt mean he would be an ace on any team in the majors. He would actually be the dbacks third starter.

    Guys,
    Freddy Garcia is so unreliable at this point, he should probably be signed to a minor league deal. Garcia used to be an ideal innings eater who could give you a ton of innings most of which were quality and looking like the rock. Now, he is a huge injury risk which destroys whatever value he had in the past.

    Anything Aceves, Hughes and Kennedy will provide us with next year should be as a backup for the starting five. Taking one of them into the rotation not only weakens the rotation but thins the depth when we have our first injury and for a replacement for joba and for them when the innings limit is reached. More than one major injury next year and all 3 of them are going to be in the rotation towards the end of the season and possibly in the playoffs. Would any fan feel even remotely comfortable with that? That is why we need another pitcher. Injuries arent always foreseeable but i can tell you right now without a doubt someone in the starting rotation will be on the dl at some point next season – we cant let the team collapse because of injuries again and another signing is exactly how you prevent that and exactly what we failed to do last season.

    Pettitte is probably the best option for 10 mil or even 12 mil – if he wants 16 mil we have to pass. The media is saying that it is less than a 50 percent chance pettitte signs. The yanks HAVE TO BE LOOKING for another starter to be added to the rotation now thats not named pettitte. The best plan outside of resigning pettitte is to package together nady with pitching prospects and trade them for a solid starter who can pitch 200 innings. Sheets for one year and less than 8 mil is the best option outside of the two above. The last possible resort should be signing garland to a one year deal worth no more than 5 G. He is coming off the absolute worst season of his career by far but I dont think he is on the decline due to age yet and is almost guaranteed to pitch 200 innings while keeping us in the game every start.

    He can only be had for cheap because of the season he had last year. Perez for 3 years and 30 million is a horrible idea – notice all of the above contracts are for one year. Why? Because we have CC, wang and AJ all here for many years and joba and hughes should be capable of pitching 200 innings by next year we hope. Second reason why oli is a bad idea is it most likely puts us in a bidding war with the mets and he will end up costing us way more than 30 mil IMO. He also is almost guaranteed to decline in the AL east putting him up to 120 walks or so over a full season – that is ridiculous and we dont need it. Lastly, oli is no longer a young guy with a ton of potential – at this point, he most likely is what he is. He is not going to all of a sudden improve dramatically at the age of 30. What he has done most likely will be what he will do in the near future. Oli for three years would be a huge mistake. If we want a three year contract for a quality pitcher we should trade for aaron harang – he is waaay better than oli over his career, has about the same money as oli will left on his contract and is a proven vet capable of being an ace. After next year, he could also be easily traded with only two years and around 26 mil left on his contract.

  495. YankeeRay January 14th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    RayVTNC
    January 14th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
    YankeeRay

    I totally agree!

    ——

    Ok, so its you me and Tim against the world. Tim’s a bit over the top on all of his signings but I think he has it right on Manny and pettite.

  496. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    All this “prove it in October” is a bunch of crap.

    Playoff performances are small sample sizes. You have to GET to October before you can succeed or fail in October.

    You build a team over the long haul and whatever happens in October happens.

    To say “CC can’t pitch in the playoffs” is a bunch of nonsense.

    For the last month of last season, he pitched in the playoffs, with the way the Brewers were competing for a final spot.

    He simply tired out from having to pitch every third day for the last 5 starts of his season.

    The Yankees don’t plan on using him that way.

    The Sox don’t have any edge right now.

    This, “You have to do it in October” is another stupid argument brought about by sports radio and the sychophants who listen to it.

    Brian Doyle was once MVP of the World Series. Does that make him a better player than say, Willie Randolph? Of course not.

    You evaluate players over what they do over a larger sample size than 3 October starts or 40 post-season AB’s.

    If not, you will never get to October.

    As far as Yankee fans on here being “objective”, the only folks on here not being objective are the Yankee fans who see boogeymen around every corner.

    “AJ is a walking DL case”.

    “ARod can’t play in the post-season”.

    “CC can’t pitch in the post-season”.

    “Jeter has to move because he can’t play SS anymore”.

    That’s followed up with the Red Sox having zero question marks at any position.

    Most everybody else on here has objectively discussed the strengths and weaknesses of this team all winter.

    No team in baseball improved themselves as much as the Yankees have this off-season.

    They replaced Darrel Rasner, who made the third most starts on the team last year, with AJ Burnett. A HUGE upgrade.

    They added the guy who has been the best starting pitcher in baseball the past two years (CC) to the rotation.

    They added the best first baseman in the AL (Tex) to the lineup.

    They have Joba and Wang for a full season in the rotation.

    They added a 27 year old guy (Swisher) who may be the Scott Brosius of this team. A guy they got after a horrible season who will bounce back and help them win games.

    All these additions to a team that despite hitting and pitching problems last year, won 89 games.

    Is it a perfect team? No. Then again, there aren’t any perfect teams in baseball right now. The Red Sox certainly aren’t one of them.

    Lowell, Ortiz, Smoltz, Penny, Beckett, Wakefield, and Saito are all injury questions. Some huge injury questions.

    Its January 14 and Josh Bard is their starting catcher now. How’s that working for you?

    Nothing drives me crazier than folks offering “objective analysis” that is the following:

    All of the Yankees question marks won’t work out and all of the Red Sox question marks will work out.

    If you can’t do it in October, it doesn’t mean anything.

    That’s not “objective analysis”. That’s just parroting the talk radio crowd and nothing more.

  497. Doreen January 14th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    rodg12 -

    Don’t know if you’re still here, but I’ve been out most of the day, and so just got around to “catching up” with this thread and the last one.

    I wanted to thank you for your link to the Joe Posnanski article. It was a good read, and it spoke to a lot of what I had been thinking about.

    Since it’s only about a month to pitchers and catchers (yay), I figure if the Yankees are going to sign a free agent for the last open spot in the rotation, they will probably do so relatively soon. If they’re waiting for a trade, I’m thinking we’ve got some waiting to do. But that’s okay, because in the meantime, you’ll have all the “kids” in camp working out and showing their stuff, and presumably, whoever you trade for will have shown up in their camp and will have been working out as well. I don’t think the Yankees are opening the season with the way things look right now, pitching-wise.

    I sure hope tomorrow brings a new topic – Pettitte, Jeter, Sheets and Manny have been done to death!!!! :lol: (Not that they’re not important, but I really can’t think of something new that anyone could say on any of those topics!)

  498. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 14th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    To add another bit of reality to the Pettitte drama, it appears that he is going to be supoenaed by the federal grand jury regarding the Clemens case and will also likely be called on to testify in whatever cases go forward. The government will not care that a season is going on. I am thinking more and more that we are better off if Pettitte isn’t on the roster.

  499. YankeeRay January 14th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

    Rosenthal believes Xavier Nady is likely to garner Type A status when he becomes a free agent after the ’09 season, but half of the equation (his 2009 stats) is missing.
    ——-

    If this is true than Nady becomes more attractive to us and or a trade partner. He can be offered arbitration next year knowing that he and Boras will reject it and the offering team gets a high draft choice.
    Pretty good deal for a trade partner who will have to give up something to get Nady for 1 year but will get something back later.
    We could do the same thing but we will still have a log jam this year. While some of you call it depth, I still don’t think the Yanks go to war this year with either Swisher or Nady on the bench.

  500. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    I really wish Clemens would have used his head. This scorched earth policy has done nothing for him but most likely garner a federal purjury charge against him.

    In the meantime, he’s about to make everybody’s life around him a living hell. Brutal.

  501. Andrew January 14th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    “While some of you call it depth, I still don’t think the Yanks go to war this year with either Swisher or Nady on the bench.”

    Well, I don’t think Cashman is moving either of them unless he gets something he needs, meaning someone who can slot into the back of the rotation or someone who is better right now than Melky and Gardner in CF, or some real impressive prospect package (doubtful) that isn’t pitching-heavy.

    Aside from that, there is no guarantee that one of them will be on the bench. Posada & Matsui represent injury question marks, if either of them can’t start the year, it could thrust both Nady & Swish into every-day playing time. If Posada needs more rehab time, they could put Damon in CF and Swisher in LF to get another bat in the lineup (they might do that anyway, depending on if Damon feels he can play CF every day). Or, if Matsui can’t get his knees in order, then DH is open for Swisher or whoever needs a day off.

  502. RayVTNC January 14th, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    Tim, SJ, YankeeRav & CB!

    I trust their comments! As an old ___ I remember Mickey Mantle & Roger Maris against the Dodgers’ Koufax & Drysdale! Talk about a lack of clutch hitting!! LOL! Obviously M&M were not clutch. Well for that series. I look at last years opening day roster & cringe. Yet the Yankees won 89 games & had a winning record against Boston & Tampa!!! The Yanks stunk against the O’s & Toronto! AJ was part of that result. He isn’t there anymore.

    Defensively, the Yankees have improved tremendously.
    Nady/Swisher > Abreu
    Tex > Giambi
    Posada & Molina > gang

    Offensively as well.
    #3 Tex > Abreu
    #5 Matsui = Giambi
    #6 Nady/Swisher > 2008#6
    #7 Posada > 2008#7

  503. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 14th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    SJ -

    The extent of the destruction he has wreaked by digging his heels in is almost unimaginable.

  504. ellen January 14th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    trisha – aha! That must be why we haven’t heard about the phantom offers to Pettitte from other teams. His attorneys have been busy figuring out how to quash a federal subpoena. Now, that’s work!

  505. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 14th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    And the federal perjury charge notwithstanding, his outlandish defamation case against MacNamee is also about to blow up in his face but not before he takes the entire ship down with him. The list of people flattened by the bus just grows by leaps and bounds.

  506. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 14th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    ellen -

    :lol:

    It really is pretty ugly though.

  507. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 14th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    And frankly and seriously – I just don’t think the Yankees need the distraction.

  508. Brian January 14th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    The Yankees bullpen is also far better and deeper than the Sox. Indeed, may of the guys pete lists, Masterson, Smoltz and probably headed to the Sox bullpen to bolster it.

  509. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    Trisha,

    Jason Giambi will never be thought of as a candidate for Mensa.

    Yet, out of ALL these guys, Andy included, he handled this better than any of them. He said he was sorry, didn’t duck anybody, didn’t rat anybody else out, told the truth before the Grand Jury, and went back to work.

    Lo and behold, he’s the only guy that was able to reclaim a large part of his popularity and reputation.

    The rest of them? They all went about it in the worst possible way.

    From McGuire (who was as poorly coached by lawyers to go before Congress as anybody I’ve ever seen), to Sammy Sosa conveinently forgetting English at when the tough questions hit. Even Andy Pettitte (not telling the Yankees about his HGH stuff prior to signing his deal) was not exactly on the up and up.

    Clemens though topped them all. In so doing, he torched an entire body of work.

    What a waste.

    Just goes to show you, when guys think they are bulletproof, that’s the beginning of the end for them.

  510. ballantine ale January 14th, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    i’ll be glad if clemens is charged with purjury. i believe he lied to prosecutors thinking he’d get away with it because of who he is. he thinks he can intimidate anyone. he’s a bully. i like to see people who display such hubris forced to face the truth.

  511. ellen January 14th, 2009 at 4:47 pm

    SJ: I thought the same thing. Who prepped these guys? Did they think they were so above the Congressional hearing process that they didn’t accept their lawyers’ advice? Holy moly. If I let a client go in to a hearing cold – and then they implode – I’d be looking for another line of work.

  512. Brian January 14th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    At the same time, I agree with what Pete is saying and I would like to see the Yankees build up their starting pitching depth. You can never have enough. That point is well taken. At this point though, I am hoping it is not Pettitte. Frankly, he wasn’t worth anywhere near $16MM last year, pitched poorly, and his refusal to accept the Yankees very reasonable $10MM offer for 2009 is frustrating. Time has come and passed for Cash money to go another direction.

  513. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

    SJ44: Great post refuting the “but he can’t do it in October” nonsense. I think my favorite of those ridiculous fallacies is the newer one about how Texieria is too “corporate” (or Gammons would say “well-programmed,” I guess) to perform well in the postseason. Classic! Never mind that he hit well over .400 last October of course…

  514. Fan mail from some flounder January 14th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    trisha,

    That and the fact that he is a $$ grubbing, cheating, liar who worked very hard to come off as a choir boy. My guess is he was greasing the skids knowing he’d be outed eventually.

    Isn’t it funny how baseball became a “young man’s game” since the PED clouds settled in…

  515. John in MD January 14th, 2009 at 4:52 pm

    Hey SJ,

    I was wondering what you thought of the two Cubans that just defected to the US. I saw their stats from the first WBC but obviously thats not a good indicator. Do you have any info on these two guys? Are they worth looking at?

  516. BBB January 14th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    this nugget from MLBTR reminded me of this blog and made me laugh:
    “Gregor snagged a funny quote from from irritated White Sox GM Ken Williams on this winter’s Jermaine Dye trade rumors:

    “Can’t even imagine what the rumor is. *I’m tired of responding to every blogger’s idea*.”

    I have a feeling Cash would feel the same way reading some of the usual LoHud offseason insanity…just wait till early Feb. when this blog starts going to war over whether Cervelli or Kevin Cash is the 3rd string catcher! lol

  517. jim January 14th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    Dave ,

    interesting points about perez.

    my thinking was this

    AJ , CC , Perez signed.

    Wang – 1 yr deal arbittration , at some point he will be a free agent , but right now he is one year at a time

    Chamberlain Hughes , etc – All young and under conttol.

    so if the best possible thing happened at CC,AJ,and Perez are all healthy , wang is awesome and chamberlain and Hughes are great ..

    2010 options would be keep them all and arbitration with wang or trade perez or wang

    so the years might not handcuff them.

    as for no hope for improvement. that is the risk with perez, but some scouting reports indicate he could improve

    as far as bidding war with mets. wouldn’t do that.

  518. SJ44 January 14th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    Re: The Cuban players, the pitcher is ok. A back end of the rotation guy. He’s ok, not great.

    The OF is probably a AAA-AAAA player. Definitely not a high upside talent.

    I still wait in vain for Gourrial to stop drinking the Communist Kool Aid and defect.

    He’s a lifelong Yankee fan (Arod and Jeter are his heroes) and that’s a guy I would pay big money to have in a Yankee uniform. He can really play.

    The rest of the guys on the Cuban team are very young. There has been a big turnover with their team the past several years. I haven’t seen a lot of the scouting reports of the younger players on the team yet.

    I just know they aren’t as talented as some of the veteran guys they had in the past. At least, that’s what I’ve heard from some scouts this winter.

  519. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 14th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    SJ – I could not have said it better. I was one who wanted Giambi’s head when I heard that he had admitted to using – until he held his press conference. Funny he never got the level of acclaim that Clemens did nor did he ever get the respect or reverence that Pettitte did because of his strong christian values, ahem, and in the end he turned out to be the absolute best of them all.

    ballantine I think you are absolutely right. I wanted to vomit when I heard that Clemens got to meet with members of that Congressional Committee ahead of time and they were lining up for autographs. Clemens had lived so long writing his own ticket wherever he went and having people from all walks of life swoon at his feet (wasn’t he pals with Bush) that he apparently got to the point of believing that he was untouchable. To me the lowpoint in those hearings and to me one of the biggest embarassments was when the Representative from NC said during the testimony that Clemens would surely go to Heaven when he died. That was after the evidence was so stacked against him and so many lies he told had been revealed that you figured that even a third grader would have voted guilty.

    What a country.

  520. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 14th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    “Isn’t it funny how baseball became a “young man’s game” since the PED clouds settled in…”

    Almost scary.

    I used to be able to cry potential foul about the 2001 World Series because Luis Gonzalez was someone whose name had been associated with steroids – and 2001 happened to be his season of seasons – until all of this came out and I had to deal with the embarrassment of knowing that a prominent member of our pitching staff had also been doing the same thing.

    The saddest thing about the Mitchell Report is that the only people who were fingered were those who were somehow associated with MacNamee or Radomski. Nobody who got their goods elsewhere got a mention. I remembered thinking to myself that there had to be a whole lot of players breathing a sigh of relief once the report was out and they didn’t see their names in lights.

  521. jose January 14th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    the yankees should sign manny and sheet this way they protect themself from any injuries that may happen and if they escape florida with any injuries then they have chips to make trades but for this work out they should not trade shisher or nady we most wait after we come out of spring training and one more thing the yankees already surrender their draft picks for next year so they might as well go all the way I know wishfull thinking but Is just a thought

  522. Fan mail from some flounder January 14th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    Hmmm. I had no idea the cheating and lying were “strong christian values”. Oh, wait…

  523. ham fighters January 14th, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    giambi was also smart enough to grab the dollars the a’s were holding out without whining. he went from $22M to $4.5M per year without squaking and he’s ready to play. after the yankees, oakland was his second choice of where he wants to play. he didnt get insulted by the offer or go chase an extra $1.5M in milwaukee.

    hey jason, give andy a call please!

    and he also realized that $4.5M is still a big pile of cash, even for a guy who’s already earned over $125M.

  524. nick January 14th, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    lol sorry about the caps im at work and i use caps i forgot to change it

  525. nick January 14th, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    Chris
    January 14th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
    How are Nick’s thoughts making him a clownish troll? Granted the capitalization was over the top, but, he’s right. Offense is why we lost last year. And we lost 40 homers and 200 rbi in Giambi and Abreu. We added Tex, which is a good upgrade over Giambi, but I don’t believe Posada is gonna be able to play a full season behind the plate, I don’t think Matsui’s knee to hold up to DH for 150+ games. Jeter was nothing more than a single’s hitter last year and that trend will seemingly continue with his age going up. Our offense is the issue, we need another hitter, because we can’t expect Matsui, Cano, Posada to have bounce back years, just like we can’t expect them to not. It just seems like we’re headed for a lot more 3 – 2 losses, like last year.

    someone who watches the games wit me.. there was about 30 games yankees lost by 1 run.. lets get sheets if we cant get andy back and manny and then ill be happy

  526. Kim Jones' Husband January 14th, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    I love these people talking about Andy’s growth hormone usage. Do you even know how GH works? I am willing to bet your knowledge of the subject comes from newspaper articles, BALCO report and Mitchell report. So please, just don’t pretend you know anything.

  527. ellen January 14th, 2009 at 9:25 pm

    Kim’s Hubby: Don’t need to be an expert in the stuff. If it was OK with MLB for players to use, no one would have had to apologize for using it, much less cover it up, right?

  528. JF January 14th, 2009 at 9:40 pm

    Peter, if you know, can you please tell us why exactly Pettitte doesn’t want to sign for $10 million? That seems fair for a 36-year-old with a career 4.00 ERA in the AL. Does he want more years?

    On the other hand, can’t the Yanks give him a couple million more, and maybe another year? $24 million over two seasons wouldn’t strike me as highway robbery. And, as you say, the Yanks need a fifth man for the rotation. And Lowe–an arguably better, but ultimately comparable pitcher–is off to Atlanta. For $60 million over four years, I might add.

  529. JF January 14th, 2009 at 9:44 pm

    That strikethrough was unintentional. I was going for a two-em dash.

  530. Grace January 14th, 2009 at 10:06 pm

    Peter:

    Wang is heading US Tonight (Taiwan local time),
    and go to Phinex for training,
    then report to Tempa around Feb. 1

    Yankees asked him to report 2 weeks earlier than the pitchers and catchers report day Feb.14….

  531. duh January 14th, 2009 at 10:28 pm

    “It’s not acceptable for a contending team to go into the season with four good starters and hold a contest for the fifth spot. ”

    really? this is exactly what the 2000 yankees did.

    remember Christian Parker? Randy Kiesler? etc?

  532. jas January 14th, 2009 at 11:07 pm

    Right now if I knew my team was relying on innings from Brad freaking Penny and a 41 year old and coming off a major injury John Smoltz, I’d be pretty damn scared.

  533. Bryan C January 15th, 2009 at 12:15 am

    On other news, Wang is on his way back to US, according to Taiwanese newspapers. Going to start his own self training in Arizona, before heading to Tampa to report in for the pitchers and catchers spring training session.

  534. Bryan January 15th, 2009 at 8:26 am

    Ben has a much different perspective on the matter and is actually more astute to the fact that the numbers don’t lie ! http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....ound-6937/

  535. B.E. Earl January 15th, 2009 at 9:58 am

    Every team that has won a World Series this decade thus far has started off the season with some rotation questions. Julian Tavarez was the 5th starter for the Sox in 2007. Sidney Ponson for the Cards in 2006. Last year’s rotation for the Phillies was Myers, Hamels, Moyer, Kendrick and Eaton. That group didn’t inspire fear in anyone. But it worked.

    To say that it is unacceptable for a contender to go into the season with a question mark in their rotation is ridiculous. It happens every year to the best teams.

  536. sean January 15th, 2009 at 10:28 am

    man, the red sox are signing these big name pitchers which a one year deal and limited money. They got nothing to loose. Why don’t the Yankees do the same?

    But I still wish that Hughes gets another chance. He’s way to good to let go.

  537. JB January 15th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    For those comparing Josh Beckett and AJ Burnett….

    Last 4 years
    Average IP (Beckett – 190, Burnett – 183)
    Average ERA+ (Beckett – 118, Burnett – 113)

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