Pinch hitting: The Bronx View
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 14, 2009 
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January is traditionally a slow month for baseball news. So for the second year in a row, we will showcase other blogs with a series of pinch hitters.
Next up is Scott from this The Bronx View (www.thebronxview.com). Scott started writing online about baseball in the pre-blog era for sites like esportsmediagroup.com and the now-defunct hardrocksports.com. He used to run The Fair Pole baseball blog before launching The Bronx View in November. The blog focuses on Yankee news as well as MLB news and features a weekly podcast available through the blog and on iTunes.
Here’s his post:
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A 36 year-old shortstop in decline. A first ballot Hall of Famer. The face of a franchise.
In 1996, the Baltimore Orioles had a dilemma: what to do with Cal Ripken? Ripken was almost bigger than the game. The consecutive games record, which he set in 1995, was credited with reviving a sport tarnished by the cancellation of the 1994 World Series.
The problem: Cal couldn’t handle shortstop anymore. His “ambassador of the game” status sold tickets but weakened the Orioles ballclub. Ripken tried third base briefly in 1996, then took the full time job in 1997. Defensively, it was the right move, but offensively he was a below average third baseman.
In 2010, Derek Jeter’s 10-year, $189 million contract will end. Jeter will be 37 years old and, health permitting, within a season of reaching 3,000 hits. The Yankees will have to negotiate a new contract for the face of their franchise, one of the most recognizable names in the game, despite significant performance decline. It’s a situation similar to Ripken, only in 2010 Jeter will make $16 million more than Cal did in 1997.
Jeter’s reputation is inarguable. From his Rookie of the Year award to his four World Series rings and .309 postseason average, Jeter has been the anchor of the Yankees. He also has been well paid. In 2010, Jeter will receive $22.1 million, raising his career total to over $204 million in compensation.
There’s a problem. By today’s standards, Derek Jeter is not a $22 million player and, given his age, never will be again. He has also never been a very good defensive shortstop and, by age 37 in 2011, will be even worse. Jeter needs a new position, but where can he go?
The easiest shift would be to third base, but that should have happened when Alex Rodriguez arrived. First base was just given to Mark Teixeira for eight years. Second base is a lateral shift with no benefit while Jeter’s offensive output doesn’t justify an outfield position. The best place for Jeter to play from an offensive standpoint is shortstop, but his poor defense would create quite a hole on the left side for opposing hitters. A corner outfield spot could be bearable in the right lineup.
From a money standpoint, Jeter should take a paycut. His last three years have seen a steady decline in both OBP and SLG and while that could fluctuate, it wouldn’t be enough to justify $22 million. The Yankees would be smart to work out a contract that rewards career totals. If Jeter plays another five seasons, he could be the Yankees career leader in games, at-bats, plate appearances, runs scored, hits, doubles, and stolen bases, to go along with the singles record he already owns. Jeter would justify his salary with the media hoopla that will surround his achievements.
The Yankees and Jeter need each other at this point. Jeter’s career totals have more meaning in pinstripes and the Yankees don’t want the media backlash of losing him. It may mean overpaying a shortstop, but the Yankees are the one team that can afford it.
Supporting facts and other notes relevant to this article can be found at www.thebronxview.com.
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Thanks, Scott. Coming tomorrow: The wacky crew from It Is High, It is Far, It is … Caught.
jeter should DH hes old
nice post tho scott
Sounds like the Andy Pettitte argument.
Not pretty, but not nearly as ugly as people make it out to be.
People are crazy if they think that Derek Jeter’s going to play for $10M. We’re the Yankees, we don’t have to pay minimum wage. If Derek Jeter leads this team to the WS in the next 2 years, he can write his own contract.
And I wish people would stop insinuating that Jeter can’t field his position. Like he’s hobbling around on a peg leg out there.
(from previous thread-POWs and prisoners of war so it should be RBIs and runs batted in.)
(also, the “good fight” was trying to temper the negativity of a particular poster. Last night? The night before?)
In the spoken language, it would be RBI’s. Written as a stat it would be RBI.
“How many RBI did Swisher have?” “3 RBI”
“How many RBIs did Nady have?” “3 RBIs”
“Which player should we trade?”
from previous thread:
Forget the #4 train, can we have John Rocker ask the question on the #7 train??
Good post.
Jeter might not be worth the salary – but he sure sells lots of jerseys and memorabilia – and the benefits the Yankees too.
I wondered if Jeter’s “Captain” status would play into it too – How do you tell your Captain to “take a walk”? – (obviously it’s easier if your captain is a catcher and wears a B on his cap)
It has nothing to do with spoken or written. RBI is the correct plural form of RBI. They’re not Run Batted Ins. They’re Runs Batted In, so that’s still RBI.
But like I said in the previous thread, writing RBIs in informal writing (i.e. on this blog) is fine. But everyone needs to just admit that RBIs is not correct.
ALSO: even if RBIs were correct, RBI’s with the ‘ would NEVER be right. the ‘ implies either a conjunction or possession.
Sorry. This is kind of a pet peeve of mine. It doesn’t matter on a blog, but when people are debating which is correct, I have to put my 2 cents in.
The end of Jeter’s contract scares me. Yankee fans are going to be split in half about what to do with him.
Nice post.
And I totally didn’t mean to open that can of worms again… x_x
I just think when Derek’s current contract expires, both parties just may do a year to year deal…One year contracts, either party can leave on their own terms & when ready,,,,,It also has a honorable & professional appeal to it…..That’s two seasons from now……So until then,,,,,,,,He hits .327 this season
Good post, the only problem with it that I have is that Derek Jeter is 34 years old, which means that his performance be better than it was last year due to nagging injuries that affected his hitting.
*CHRIS WOOD, of East Longmeadow, Massachusetts, writes, “I am irked by sports media’s pretentious use of RBI, in speech and writing, to describe more than one run batted in. Though it is in dictionaries, I find it unnatural, since the initials assume the entire meaning of the term and should allow for an s at the end. More tolerable is a similar practice in the realm of hard news, as when Tom Brokaw or Wolf Blitzer utters the plural WMD (’weapons of mass destruction’). But why not pluralize all abbreviations at the end? If you are going to acknowledge construction and etymology, why not be completely asinine and call the things RsBI?”*
Our conventions for pluralizing initialisms are an absolute mess. *Some dictionaries give both RBIs and RBI as plural forms of RBI*. (The New Oxford American Dictionary also gives ribbies as an informal equivalent.) RBIs is the plural most commonly seen in print. Still, some major newspapers, including The New York Times and The Washington Post—which maybe you think of as pretentious?—and also smaller ones, such as the Akron (Ohio) Beacon Journal and the Corpus Christi (Texas) Caller-Times, use RBI (or R.B.I.) whether they’re describing one or a hundred runs batted in.
The national-desk copy chief of The Washington Post, Bill Walsh, disapproves of this style decision, though, despite what his paper’s sports desk does. In his book Lapsing Into a Comma, Walsh wrote, “Three RBI? Is that like three POW? It’s silly, if well intentioned, to try to apply this kind of internal logic once you’ve switched from a spelled-out term to an initialism. The plural of an initialism is the initialism plus s. Prisoner of war/prisoners of war, but POW/POWs. Run batted in/runs batted in, but RBI/RBIs.”
That makes sense to me, so I thought I’d consult Walsh about WMD versus WMDs—and, while I was at it, FAQ versus FAQs, for “frequently asked questions.” This last term is a bit different, because in the spelled-out version the s does come at the end. The evolving convention is nonetheless to call a list of questions an FAQ.
Walsh told me, “I try to avoid WMD outside quotations, but I think it’s clear that the plural should be WMDs, following the POWs principle. FAQ strikes me as a singular noun, even though it stands for a plural concept. An FAQ (or a FAQ, for those who pronounce it ‘fack’) really means ‘a list of frequently asked questions,’ not ‘a frequently asked questions.’” Very true. Walsh’s thoughts about how to treat the plurals of initialisms amount to as sensible a set of principles as you’ll find.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200409/wallraff
Is it me or is it possible that Jeter’s contract is all we’ll talk about next off-season?
Rebecca,
It’ll be interesting only because the Yankees “don’t do extensions during the season”.
I think the Jeter/Yankees negotiations will go smoothly. They have a great relationship. This isn’t like with Andy, who left a few years ago and even now has soured the team with his HGH use. I’m not worried about any hard feelings – at some point probably before his contract runs out, Jeter and the Yanks will talk and lay the groundwork for a future contract.
m: I was thinking the same thing.
Think Jeter will just hang out for a while?
Has there ever been a (successful) 40 year old shortstop?
Can’t believe how much effort was put into this article and yet they couldn’t get his age correctly.
Well Nick in SF,,How are going to about runs batted in ???? I’m still sticking with the games venacular…..RBI’S / Ribbies…besides it’s a cool word ….ribbies,,,
There may not be ATM Machines. (automatic teller machine machines?)
There may not be PIN Numbers. (personal identification number numbers?)
But there is only one Derek Jeter.
(and Mike Mussina would say Jeter deserves more than Carl Pavano no matter how many years he plays)
DT: Spot on.
Andrea,
Year to year sounds good. If DJ’s really smart, he’ll stretch out those hits as he approaches 3000.
It’ll be an embarrassment to see Jeter wearing a Tampa -Devil- Rays uni.
Furthermore, why would *our* national grammar rodeo be held in Canada??
ATM & PIN are different from RBI because the simple noun is the last word.
Anyway, anyone seen this Griffin kid from Oklahoma (NC2A basketball?) He’s a beast. I would fight to get the first pick in the draft to get him.
For anyone who grew up reading The Sporting News (I didn’t, but people swear they use to grab it to read box scores back in the horse and buggy days) , they have a digital version that’s really, really nice. Check it out and subscribe for free. Of course nothing can replace the LoHud Journal News.
http://today.sportingnews.com/.....;folio=CGI
Today’s issue had HOF stuff.
Didn’t we already have the same Derek Jeter post already?
Why dont we talk about potential internal options for our next closer or what free agents are available when Mo’s current contract expires and who will be the best fit – Mo or insert name here? How about who we should get as an ace if cc opts out or where we are going to get our number three and four hitters when tex and arod are gone or ineffective? What should we do with betances if he is lights out in triple A but our major league rotation is full or with melancon if he is pitching better than Mo while Mo is still with the yanks? Why not mention all of those major questions that are years away but insist on talking about whether or not derek jeter will re-sign and/or change positions 2 years before the fact? All of these questions are ridiculously far away and it is almost obscene to answer any of them because we dont have any of the necessary info on hand so maybe we should start debating all of these answers as well. Or maybe it is a huge waste of time and we should at least wait until the actual decision is less than a year away. BTW do you guys think brackman will re-sign with the yanks when he reaches free agency or will there be someone better out there?
Boston Herald:
“The Tigers, Rangers and Yankees were also believed to have had interest in Smoltz, who reportedly turned down an offer of $8 million from one team.”
It was a hoax I tell ya. He never had any intention of staying in Atlanta or going anywhere else. Mrs. Smoltz liked shopping at Phipps Plaza all these years but after seeing Newberry Street she said “I want you to be a Red Sock”.
I have been wondering about Jeter’s future myself. I don’t think he will hold them up for money, if for no other reason than it would be the exact opposite of what A-Rod did. Left/DH seems like the obvious place for him when his new contract rolls around, especially with a guy who can cover a lot of ground playing center.
He has always been a team first guy… he won’t hold them up for money, and Hal isn’t dumb enough to bring that PR nightmare on.
dave, see:
Melancon, Mark.
Rebecca: shockingly, I think you missed dave’s highly-sarcastic point, which is: why talk about something years off when this blog should be focusing its collective energies on sending mind beams to Brian Cashman to remind him something or other about Ben Sheets?
Dave,
All the questions you are asking are at least as far away from being real issues as the Jeter thing.
Mo’s contract is up the same time as Jeter’s. Until Mo stops being Mo (at which point I think he would hang it up), I wouldn’t worry about it. By then Melanchon will be ready to take over.
Brackman is under control for a while and Betances isn’t giong to be ML ready for a while, which will be right about the time AJ’s contract runs out.
another post about the Jeter fielding position dilemma? OKAY WE GET IT – Jeter is old and has no range how many more PH posts on this will we see? I like the factual and research posts better than reading some random clown’s opinion
What some people “get” but may not be able to step back and really understand is that Derek Jeter someday will mean what Mickey Mantle means to people who grew up watching him. 40 years from now, your children or grandchildren will wear Jeter jersey’s to yankees games. One day, when he dies, you will cry like a baby. Your children, or grandchilren might, too.
Give him 22 million dollars. With the legacy, emotion, ticket, jersey and memorabilia sales that he has created over the last 10 years, he deserves every single penny of it. He’s not Cal Ripken, he’s Derek Jeter.
jerome: Cal Ripken Jr might not be Mickey Mantle, but he was still one hell of a player.
I admit to being hypersensitive about Derek Jeter.
He’s no Mantle or even Cal Ripken, Jr.
But he’s our Jeter. Just like Cal was Baltimore’s Ripken. The only difference is that Ripken was the Orioles.
In Jeter’s case he can hold his head high and be tall enough to stand with the Yankee greats. Not because of his fielding (haha) or hitting, but because of his character.
I think we all know that Jeter will not be elected Favre saga 2010, no matter how much we will it on this blog (2 guest posts already!)
However, I wonder if subconsciously we are all really worried about Jeter in the years *before* his contract is up, considering how bad his fielding already is, how it only seems to be getting worse, how his offense doesn’t necessarily fit the DH category, and how we already have too many DH’s on our team. Maybe this anxiety goes beyond Yankee performance.
IMO, there are so many problems that the Yankees could fix before answering the Jeter question. Even world series teams have many holes. (The Phillies had Jamie Moyer as their 3rd starter last year!) They should fix all the other holes first, and then, *if* Jeter is still the only reason they are not winning the world series (highly unlikely), then they can discuss Jeter changing positions/transitioning to retirement.
Saying that my “last three years have seen a steady decline in both OBP and SLG” doesn’t really tell the whole story.
For my career, my OPS is .845. Since 2001, I’ve had 1 season with OPS above my career average, 2006, when I should have won the MVP (even though I don’t care about individual achievements). My 2007 OPS was right at my career average and better than my production in 2004 or 2005. Can stats from one season show a trend?
If you want to base this decline on last season, that’s fine. I don’t usually make excuses, but I had a few injuries last year that would make it hard for anyone. Even with last year’s bad numbers, I’ve still had an .838 OPS over my last 3 seasons, 7 POINTS BELOW MY CAREER AVERAGE!
It’s fine to project that I will start to slow down as I get older, everyone does (except Roger and Barry), but 06 and 07 weren’t “slow down” years for me.
That wasn’t me… some jerk spelled my name wrong. Plus, I’d never use injuries as an excuse.
good post.
can i ask a general question – i am english, and only discovered baseball when my NY-based brother was over here and sat me down to watch the ‘96 world series (a good intro to the game, i’m sure you’d agree). since then i’ve been passionate about the yanks, but don’t have the upbringing in the game that you all have.
what are considered the stronger/weaker positions when it comes to batting? in other words, are outfielders supposed to bat better than infielders, etc, etc.
can someone rank for me from what is rated strongest to weakest…?
is it groundhog day already?
dano:
these vary widely, but:
corner IF’s (1st base and 3rd base) and your corner OF’s (RF and LF) are your power hitting positions, while ‘up the middle’ positions (Catcher, SS, 2B and CF) are generally considered defensive positons, although some of the all-time greats (mantle, mays, dimaggio ) have played CF, it is at it’s heart a defensive position.
more recently a string of gifted, atheletic, good hitting shortstops have emerged like Arod who started at SS, and others but traditionally SS is a weak bat, strong glove position.
if you can put a guy who produces outstanding #’s at one of the traditionally weaker hitting positions like chase utley at 2B or a healthy jorge posade behind the plate, it is a big advantage, although sometimes they just put a good hitter with no fielding ability at 2B or LF because they need to put thier bat in the lineup somewhere. dan uggla, 2B of the marlins is a good example of this.
hope that covers it bloke.
I’ve thought about what the Yankees are going to do with Jeter as he starts to decline. He’s the captain of the Yankees. What do you do??
Because Jeter did not move to 3B when ARod came this problem has been in the making for 5 years with more concrete poured around it every year.
The Yankee for Life, Monument Park,, Cooperstown, and the stat package all argue for keeping Jeets.
He can play CF – assuming he keeps his speed — and I am assuming that the way he tracks flares from SS tranlates into solid OF routes. His offensive production translates better at CF and it is (or was) the glamour posiiton in Yankee Stadium — he probably would add some luster by his name.
Hopefully his decline the last 3 years is as much injury as time and that if he can avoid a hard hurt he can be “more” productive.
Here is also hoping he does not have a Bernie Williams Tino Martinez, Mickey Mantle precipitous decline
there has been no reason to this point for jeter to move. arod is doing great at 3B and can stay there for the next 9 years. so why people automatically assume that moving jeter will be a problem is beyond me. he’s never been asked to consider it to this point. and of course, his reaction might vary depending on the position they want to move him to.
we’re not there yet, so why assume it will be a big issue when there is no evidence to support this. jeter is team-first, he will do what the team needs when the time comes. that time is not now.
Nice summary of the dilemma, Scott. They will certainly re-sign Jeter. My guess is that he plays SS a couple more years and then moves to LF, where he also won’t be great defensively, but they’ll live with it.
The two Jeter posts and numerous responses all acknowledge but fail to take into account Jeter’s character. He will not allow himself or the Yankees to go through the ugliness of the Pettitte situation (Andy has a weak character), He will also only play if he feels he can perform. Therefore we can safely assume that Jeter will handle the situation with class and dignity and that the Yankees will provide him with the forum to do so.
1st. Jeter is not moving from SS.
2nd. the offense is good with some questions.ie Posada, Matsui, Nady?
3rd. I will be an advocate of signing Manny until, either he signs with us, or another team…yes I’m aware of his past issue’s.
4th He would solidify our offense, helping the aging Jete, Mo, A-rod, Posada…Damon..
5th I don’t buy the “payroll” issue being portrayed in the media.
With the pitching and 1st baseman we acquired…getting Manny, would help for the next 3yrs…while young player’s develope and older player’s fall off the Payroll…with out giving up young players to get him…maintaining a solid offense…
I think Cashman is too smart and too good to not get Jeter’s situation wrapped up as soon as he can.
I feel like the seeds have already been planted. For some reason I seem to remember last off season Jeter and Cashman having a conversation about what Jeter needed to work on in the offseasoon (lateral movement) which is what Jeter did.
Am I making this up?
So there are still people ready to take Jeter’s position from him already? “Jeter to CF, Jeter to DH, Jeter to 3B.” Sheeesh.
Same mentality as those who want to sign or trade for every player who had a decent year last season. Then next year they’d want to ship those same players off for another was even slightly better statistically in 2009.
Derek Jeter is nowhere close to being a detriment at SS. He is the face of the team. He is the captain. Can we please understand what all this means to the Yankees as a whole?
Does anyone remember the carousel the Yanks had at SS for a zillion years before Derek came to town? Is that what we are in such a hurry for? It worked out so well with so many other SS’s in the 80’s didn’t it?
Hope none of you Jeter-critics have a sub-par day at work today or are possibly less than 100%. Especially if you’ve provided years of dedicated service to it. If your boss is anything like you maybe you’ll be replaced.
ham fighters
cheers pal, appreciate that.
everyday brings more corner OF’s to throw on the available pile.
add geoff jenkins and matt stairs to the pile from philly (http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies_zone/) and delmon young from the twins (joel sherman on xm today)
Jeter will be the shortstop for at least the next 2 years and at that point it will work itself out.
If we had moved him to 3rd when Arod came then in 2 years the argument would be that Jeter doesn’t produce like a corner infielder and that Arods defense is slowing down at SS and we need to move him to another position.
Jeter will either become the DH or outfielder that he probably can be. You don’t have to have a DH that just produces power.
He could also be part of a Tex, Arod rotational player giving them a little DH time to rest. There will be options but he will remain a Yankee.
In answer to the question above of are there any producing SS at 40 yrs old, Omar Vizquel comes to mind initially.
Forget about Jeter already and lets focus on signing Manny and Pettite so we can win this year.
Much ado about nothing.
He will be the SS for the next two years. After that, let’s see what happens.
One thing that gets lost in all this babble about Jeter. He can still play the position better than 80% of the SS in the game.
If you are in the Top 20% of players at your position, moving is not on the agenda right now.
When it does happen, and it will, the Yankees and Jeter will make it work.
This may be a good subject for some to opine about daily. However, its not something that is even on the radar (nor should it be) with the Yankees and Jeter right now.
The Yankees are worried about 2009, not 2011.
Until somebody comes along that can play the position better than Jeter in the organization (or via trade), Jeter isn’t, and shouldn’t, be moved.
SJ
Amen!
SJ:
I totally agree on the Jeter thing, good post…
Dano,
I’ll add to ham fighter’s assessment and say that CF, SS, and 2B, in that order, should be your fastest players.
Brad Pitt’s better-looking brother
January 14th, 2009 at 8:19 am
SJ
Amen!
Tim Clougher
January 14th, 2009 at 8:21 am
SJ:
I totally agree on the Jeter thing, good post…
——-
Brad, I said the same thing as SJ and he gets the Amen?
Tim, same thing with you except I backed you by ending it with the 2 moves that take us over the top and SJ gets another shout out ?
lol Go Jetes !
YankeeRay:
Sorry, you did say the same thing..I missed it…I totally agree with your whole post….because we agree on the Manny issue..
Tim
The reason you didn’t YankeeRay is because I am in no way in agreement over the Manny thing. Team chemistry means a lot, especially here in NY. You can’t see the possible problems having Manny and his manner of playing on the same team as Mo and Derek and Jorge and ARod? Too much of a chance the drama resulting from his presence would fracture the team at some point. No arguing with his sheer stats, but baseball is more than that.
Or maybe I should’ve been begging for the Amen since I posted this same point even before him today and even a day or two ago on a different thread? Who cares about that really? But Amen to the first part of your post anyway.
Another lame pinch hit piece. At least be original.
I have no problem putting Manny on the same team that everyone wants, Pettite on, that also Giambi on, Clemens on that Sheffield played on…Manny will help us win now…
Sorry had Giambi, Clemens, Sheffield…there is a great list…Manny would be great in NY..IMO
Good morning everyone.
Thanks for your take on Jeter’s future, Scott.
Off-topic.
I have been trying to watch Ken Burns Baseball on the MLB network. I love it, BUT, I am definitely going to have to get a DVR in order to watch it during the day. The slow pace and gentle-spokenness of the narratives are exceedingly lulling, and I keep falling asleep!
Oh, and last night they did a segment on Christy Matheson and pronouned he named both “Matheson” and “Mathewson.” Which is it????? I had always thought it was the first, but when I went to baseball-reference.com, it was the second.
the 2nd one D
and you’re right, if you don’t want to take a sleeping pill but need to sleep, it can have the same effect!
No disrespect intended, just the pace of it does that.
*Another lame pinch hit piece. At least be original.*
another lame post criticizing the pinch hitter for not being original.
http://itsaboutthemoney.blogsp.....jeter.html
It doesn’t make any difference now whether Manny’s presence would be a detriment to team chemistry because they have no intention of spending another $25M per year on another DH.
And that doesn’t take into account the money they’d have to eat to trade Matsui away (that is, of course, if he would even accept a trade somewhere else).
There is zero chance Manny comes to the Yanks. You can keep up the rain dance all you want but the only thing you’ll get out of it is good exercise.
T2
lol
Here’s the issue that no one addresses. What shortstops are better as a combo SS (defensively and offensively)? Yuniesky Betancourt and Bartlett (much better defense but can’t hit the ocean if they fell out of a boat), Troy Tulowitzki and Hanley Ramirez (worse defensively), Maybe Jimmy Rollins and Jose Reyes because of the speed and range? So that is two shortstops in the majors that could make this argument valid.
I’ll take the leader of the team, a proven winner, and a proven shortstop over the average to below average crop of shortstops out there, any day of the week.
The Yankees minors have 1 shortstop in A ball worth talking about, which gives Jeter 3 – 4 years before that kid is ready. So, for the next 3 – 4 years, I’ll magic marker Jeter as my starting SS.
Maybe he can catch in 2011? Jorge will be worn out by then and it’s not like the position requires great range.
This is a silly discussion for an issue that is at least two years away from being a factor.
Isn’t it time to start thinking about Oliver Perez? When the guy throws strikes he’s tremendous. He would also give the Yanks four starters in their 20s… or is it 2s0?
I would argue that SS and C are the only positions where defense is more important than offense with CF tetering on the edge.
I agree it’s a lot of unnecessary hand-wringing at this point.
I would point, because it seems relevant to any discussion of Jeter’s future, that he is one of a very few ML’ers who is marketable nationally. How many baseball players do commercials for companies like Gillette or Visa that get aired across the country? He has an image and a mystique that’s similar to DiMaggio’s. It’s in his interests not just to continue playing in NY, but also, when the time comes, to wind down his career gracefully and with class. By the same token, the NYY have an interest in keeping DJ the face of the franchise even past his prime. It’s definitely a situation to handle with care, but there’s no reason to assume either side will screw it up.
most probably not guiseppi, but you’ll learn to never say never.
just saw your commercial, looks like you just got out of bed…
Brad, just kidding on the Amen thing. In fact the Jeter talk is just a filler until the next move.
Here is a post from a Mets fan and while it’s only 1 Met fan, it is how I and at least Tim feel. I’m sure there are more Manny fans who aren’t speaking up but they are out there.
I do disagree with the chemistry thing. From everything I keep hearing, Manny is well liked in the locker room and he has definitely proven to be a winner. He brings some baggage but so does Arod and I actually think he would be a benefit to ARod.
If Torre and Mattingly are ok with Manny then why wouldn’t we be?
Heres the post:
HotMets Jan 14, 2009 7:17:51 AM Report Offensive Post
Getting Manny, to me, would be like the Gary Carter trade, it would be THE piece to winning a championship. The minute I heard about the Carter trade, I KNEW, without a doubt, we would win the Series. And 2 years later we did. If we sign Manny, the Series is ours. I know it. I can feel it. Without a doubt.
Thank you, Brad Pitt’s B-LB. ‘Preciate it.
Guiseppe Franco:
Respectfully, I disagree…if I’m wrong I’ll get good exercise..:)
most probably not guiseppi, but you’ll learn to never say never.
—————
Maybe you’ll learn that even the Yankees have limits.
Teixeira made sense for them for a variety of reasons. Manny does not.
There is no love for Jeter these days. That is two days in a row of guest bloggers hammering Jeter. He did win the Silver Slugger this year and it was an off year for him. Trends take multiple years people. If anyone is familiar with statistics, last year could just as easily be noise as it could be a trend. If he continues to digress this year then we can hit the panic button, but the guy is 35 not 40. He hits opposite field ala Pete Rose. People need to just relax and let next season unwind.
I do not understand why people do not enjoy what they have now instead of worrying about life without it. Sports draws so many metaphores to daily situations, and I see this as a perfect example. Known temporary situations that people enjoy cause them to panic when conciderding its inevitable end. Every sports players career comes to end. Why can people not just enjoy the fact that Jeter is still a top 5 SS in baseball? Why must we worry about 3 years from now? I have too much respect for the guy to think about his decline, and instead I try to enjoy his ability still to be a very successful baseball player.
bdog75 -
Worrying is the great American pastime.
I knew u were joshin’ YR.
But how many times has that “one signing” gave a fan the feeling that that was all it would take for his team to win the pennant? You don’t hear people brag about their wrong intuitions – ever.
Gary Carter netted them exactly ONE series win (thank you Bill Buckner). And maybe they coulda done it without him, who knows?
I think the Yanks are in good position now, though I understand where you are coming from. It is my belief that too much tinkering can cause a team to lose it’s identity.
And when Manny decides to not run out ground balls or if he’s in LF pitched the circus tent, are all the fans going to laugh about that and say its just Manny being Manny?
He DID wear out his welcome in Boston in spite of monster stats. Boston still got to the AL finals.
And every move the Yankees have done has always made sense?
Brad Pitt’s better-looking brother:
Agree, but not having Manny cost them winning the AL pennant and going to the WS…
I have a question for CB or any of you stat heads out there:
When linear weight metrics like wOBA or tRA are used, what adjustments if any are made for the actual pitcher/defense a batter faces (in the case of wOBA) or the actual hitters a pitcher faces (tRA)? It seems like a pitcher who pitches for a team with an outstanding offense would have a statistical advantage because he never has to face that offense. Does the system account for those kinds of disparities or is it simply assumed that they will even out over time?
More generally, are there any metrics in existence or on the horizon that will take into account the skill of the actual batters/hitters faced — or is that just considered too much of a morass to get into? Thanks.
What is wrong with people? Do you think Scott submitted his blog entry last night? Pete has likely had these for some time.
Again I will say it, if you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say it at all!!!
Wait…is “It Is High, It Is Far, It Is…Caught” a jab at Michael Kay? Because that would make me ecstatic. ”
Deep to right! On the track! In front of the track…ok it’s shallow right.”
Brad Pitt’s better-looking brother:
Not true…Sheffield, RJ, Kevin Brown, I can go back through the 80’s but I won’t….
2008 AL East
Bal Cesar Izturis .263/1hr/.319 obp
Bos Jed Lowrie .258/2hr/.339 obp
TB Jason Bartlett .286/1hr/.329 obp
TOR john McDonald .210/1hr/.255 obp
NYY Derek Jeter .300/11hr/.363 obp
He’s getting older and in a decline phase. We all know that. He’s also still the best SS in the AL. Let’s not worry about this until 2011 and don’t let others create a problem that doesn’t exist.
but seriously is it?
Hey 86, I agree on Ollie and think he would give us another solid young arm.
But there are 2 problems with signing him:
1- He could potentially block one of the youngsters spot in the rotation next year. This is a good problem to have and they could always move Joba to pen to open up spot for Hughes or others. If we did sign him the pitchers on the farm would all be saying here we go again, we will never pitch for the yankees as has been our MO that Cash is trying to change.
2- With Boras driving the bus on Ollie he will no doubt get way more than the 30 mm that the Mets offered. Look what he just did for Lowe after the Mets offer.
For the record, I am a big Ollie fan but don’t think he fits with us unfortunately. As you can see I am big on Manny and my initial posts were for AJ and Ollie over CC so we had more money to sign Manny. At this time I am glad we have CC but still keep out some slim hope of Manny.
I don’t see Jeter leaving. It just doesn’t make sense. The Yankees have never had a guy get his 3,000 hit as a Yankee. Doesn’t it seem Jeter should be the guy to do it? I find it ridiculous when people say that Jeter is washed up and not valuable. He never became a 25-30 hr guy like we expected (or very close) but he puts up 200 hits and 100 runs every healthy year. Last year he played most of it injured following the hit by pitch by Daniel Cabrera but you never saw him complain or ask to be taken out. He knew that without Matsui and Posada the team needed him. He still managed to hit 300 with one hand. He still gets big hits, he is less then 2 years removed from an MVP season. And I don’t care what stats say he is still a very good SS. He makes the play when they need him to. A 37 year old SS is not a good idea so I do see a move needed, Jeter could easily fill in LF (you don’t need a big bat there if you have Teixera, A-Rod, and Cano.) Jeter has very good speed, tracks the ball well, and has a very good accurate arm.
Now if Jeter puts up back to back years of hitting 250 and 30 errors then complain. But until then relax and let the Captain worry about this year.
So… you’re agreeing that the Yanks moves have not always made sense then, Tim?
About Manny. Maybe so, maybe not. You don’t know.
The Dodgers didn’t win it either, right?
Tim -
You don’t know for sure that it was Manny being gone that cost them the AL pennant. They had Manny in 2005 and 2006 and didn’t win the WS, and in 2006, they didn’t even get to the playoffs.
I would never say never, ’cause I already said the Yankees wouldn’t get Teixeira, but I think it’s doubtful anyway that they go out and spend money on Manny. One of the problems is that Manny wants a multi-year contract – and Manny is the type of player who will let a contract get in the way of his performance. You can say all you want to what a great guy he was in LA, and how in general he was a good teammate, but in the end it was about Manny and he put himself before his team in Boston to get out of there. He has the right to be unhappy, but he had the contractual and financial obligation to do his job and he didn’t.
Manny being Manny is very entertaining from afar. I suspect his act would get tiresome much more quickly in NY than it did in Boston.
But ultimately, if the Yankees don’t sign him it will have less to do with his “baggage” than it will have to do with what makes sense financially and in planning the future of the team.
“He has also never been a very good defensive shortstop ”
nothing is more annoying than someone who doesn’t know enough to know what they don’t know.
until they put a gps in the ball and on the player, the only thing defensive metrics are good for is making people that haven’t played the game feel like they know something that they don’t.
i’ll give a very simple example. john dewan’s fielding bible is subjective in nature . he has the equivalent of an official scorer look at every ball put in play , and it’s location and speed is judged.
that would be like having an official scorer judging how fast a fast a pitch was- slow, medium, or fast. if a pitcher gets enough fast ratings , he’d be a fast pitcher. great, but we have this little device called a radar gun. it measures speed objectively and very precisely.
is there a defensive metric out there that is the equivalent of the radar gun. that would be a device that measured where a player started and how far and how quickly he went to get the ball. it would also measure precisely where the ball was and how fast it was going.
until gps is in a player’s pocket and in the ball , i’ll go with the subjective opinion of mlb managers and coaches and my own eyes rather the subjective opinion of john dewan’s interns hiding out in his basement or scott who bases his opinion on the opinion’s of dewan’s intern’s opinions.
Those Lowrie stats are going to be very depressing to Kill.Schill(ing) who claims Jed is the equal offensive player to Xavier Nady .305/25 HR/.320 obp.
Brad, I hear ya but I can tell you that the signing of AJ,CC and or Tex have not yet made me feel that the signing has taken us over the top.
I do feel however that signing Manny on top of those would take us over the top.
I don’t think the Mets get that far without Carter by the way.
I’m not sure that not having Manny cost them the AL crown as they got close anyway, but some of the Sox fans do think that. They thought that they needed more offense enough to offer 168 mm to fill a spot already taken.
Good debate that will probably never go anywhere for me though.
You don’t need a GPS to see how many balls “get past a diving Jeter”
To say Jeter is not a good SS defensively is laughable. I dont care what some made up formula says, watch the game. If his defense was so bad it would be easily noticable as a bunch of routine plays for another SS Jeter can’t make. But that is just not true. Just watch the game.
The study’s by these schools need to say a marquee guy is the worst defensive player. It brings attention to their study. Would you rather tell ESPN you did a study showing Derek Jeter or Marco Scutaro is the worst defensive player in baseball? I think the Jeter one gets on Sportscenter the other one in the garbage. Numbers can be made to do anything.
Brad Pitt’s better-looking brother, Doreen…
I believe if the Boston team had Manny in the line-up, they would have beat Tampa..
He helped the Dodgers get better and make the play-offs..they were missing to many pieces to contend..and Philly got hot..
I respect all of you here on the blog, but I really believe there is an outside shot the Yanks could get Manny, all I’m saying is I would favor that decision, would I buy a Manny jersey no…but I would get some WS tickets..:)
10/4 on that Randy.
YR, fun to debate it but you’re right, no way to really tell ’cause u can’t turn back the clock. If u could I’d have hair like G. Franco.
randy l:
Finally a smart person responds to this blog.
I agree with everything you said.
Has Jeter’s defense ever cost us a game? In fact, I think he’s saved a game or two: with his face or his instincts or his body.
while the rest of you are looking to get rid of him, I’ll keep him on my team.
Brian – yep!
Read my post about halfway up ’bout Jete…
I’m not trying to get rid of Jeter, just hoping he gets Manny as a team mate so he can get 3 more WS rings..
Doreen, good points on Manny.
Brad 1 more thing then off on Manny for the day.
I don’t think he would put himself in the position again about being questioned about his desire to play or run out a ground ball. Maybe the occasional groundball thing but unfortunately too many major leaguers don’t run out ground balls like Jeter does. I coach baseball and try and instill this in my kids but they watch too much ESPN and get jaded by how the players play the game today.
A prime example of this is how McCarver always points out why the triples are down in baseball. It is because so many players are in their home run trots and get stopped at second costing them and their team the extra base.
Watch how many time this happens this year, it’s sickening. Arod is perpitrator of this offense.
Manny will obviously be a hall of famer and I think if he came to NY he would be on the big stage and would not allow that Boston mentality to further impact peoples view of how he played the game, which many say he loves and works hard at.
Again, this is JMO.
How can anyone compare Jeter and Pettitte?
Jeter has character. Pettitte doesn’t (contract disputes, HGH, etc).
The Yankees are not poor and they will ‘overpay’ for Jeter, but so what? He is the centerpiece of our franchise.
I just don’t get all this talk about a Jeter decline. As SJ said, there are very few SS better in all of baseball! And to those who say he should have switched when Alex came, are you kidding me? He has even less range than Derek! Where in the world would you put HIM then? Just chill and enjoy THIS season, which is shaping up to be a real stunner!
Derek Jeter takes winning very seriously and will remove HIMSELF when he knows he can’t play the position anymore. The character that he has that made him the right choice to be the captain, will cause him to make the right decision, at the right time.
Tim -
I will say you are not alone. I was listening to XM last night and Kevin Kennedy got a phone call from a Dodgers fan who is concerned that the Yankees are “lurking” and the Dodgers could stand to lose out on him if they don’t get more aggressive. Kennedy seemed to be saying you can’t count the Yankees out on Manny. Not saying I agree with him, but just acknowledging to you that probably a lot of other people out there share your belief.
You don’t need a GPS to see how many balls “get past a diving Jeter”
you don’t need a radar gun either to tell you that jobs throws hard ,but knowing exactly how hard in mph is kind of nice.
This post was very flawed just like the last Jeter post. To say his offense is declining over the past 3 years is pretty deceptive. Over his career Jeter has been a .316/.387/.458 hitter with a career OPS+ of 120. In 2006 Jeter had a career year, he hit .343/.417/.483 with an OPS+ of 132. In 2007 his hitting regressed back near his career averages; he hit .322/.388/.452 with an OPS+ of 121.
So in actuality Jeter has only had one down year in 2008 where he hit .300/.363/.408 with an OPS+ of 102. Also a lot of his offensive woes from last year can be explained by a fractured wrist he played through for much of the season.
Going into 2009 Jeter is fully healthy and I expect him to put up numbers much closer to his 2007 totals.
You also completely neglect to mention that Jeter’s defense IMPROVED in 2008. It is not a definite that Jeter will be much worse in 2010 and therefore it is pretty pointless to discuss what position he will be moved to. We don’t even know if it will be necessary.
There is no shot they sign Manny. None, zip, nada.
They don’t want to pay Andy Pettitte more than 10 million dollars to fill an actual need (#4 starter) in the rotation.
They are now going to pay 25 million per year for at least 3 years for a DH? Its not going to happen.
Its easy to say, “I will believe it when I see it”. Anybody can do that. However, if you look at every piece of information available, it shows the Yankees don’t have any interest in Manny.
Unlike Teixeria, where they not only had a need but, actually MET with the player and his agent, the Yankees have never spoken to Boras about Manny or met with Manny.
You guys can post this stuff everyday and convince yourself Manny is the “missing link”. He’s not.
He’s also not coming to the Yankees.
“you don’t need a radar gun either to tell you that joba throws hard ,but knowing exactly how hard in mph is kind of nice.”
With Daniel Cabrara out of the AL East, Jeter should have a more productive year. But i can’t believe some Yankees fans are attacking Jeter like this. Jeter has never dogged it, and he has made plays at SS that our precious A-Rod would have never made or even attempted to make.
With the game on the line, give me Derek Jeter, no question.
YR
Funny you say that too. I coached up until last year too and that is absolutely right about the effect sportscenter has had on kids. They see highlights and highlights only, not even the game anymore. Not only does this keep them from really understanding the game, the highlights sometimes include some kind of showboating.
Doreen
Hadn’t heard that, but confirms why you never say never.
Doreen
January 14th, 2009 at 9:18 am
Tim –
I will say you are not alone. I was listening to XM last night and Kevin Kennedy got a phone call from a Dodgers fan who is concerned that the Yankees are “lurking” and the Dodgers could stand to lose out on him if they don’t get more aggressive. Kennedy seemed to be saying you can’t count the Yankees out on Manny. Not saying I agree with him, but just acknowledging to you that probably a lot of other people out there share your belief.
—–
Doreen, I was reading some LA posts yesterday and many were comparing the manny negotiations to the Tex and Boston one. They feel that the Yankees are just sitting back until the market defines itself and if the price is right and the years are at 2-3 then the yanks could pounce. They are getting prepared for that outcome.
SJ, I agree that it probably won’t happen but I will forever feel that he is the missing link and if we could move Nady and Matsui creatively then it would be the deal that put us over the top. The financials could be dealt with for a year until Damon and Pettite are off the books.
Enough on Manny from me for the day.
SJ:
I would love to see you eat your words again, it will be comical….
patrick-
off topic,but you mentioned that jeter has a career OPS+ of 120.
the other night, mlb network panel was debating barry larkin’s hall of fame chances. i noticed his OPS+ was 116.
this doesn’t look much different, but jeter has already passed larken or is close in hits, home runs, rbis, runs, total bases, and most of the other traditional stats.
the panel said larkin was a lock . my reading of larkin’s stats vs. jeter’s stats looked like there would be more than a difference of 116 vs 120 for OPS+
any thoughts why is there such a small difference in OPS+ when the traditional stats look very different in jeter’s favor?
“Those Lowrie stats are going to be very depressing to Kill.Schill(ing) who claims Jed is the equal offensive player to Xavier Nady .305/25 HR/.320 obp.”
86,
I read that yesterday and I puked in my mouth a little. Regardless, this team has some question marks. All teams do. But Jeter really isn’t one of them yet, or in 2010.
How about arguing over our 5th starter, our pen roles after Mo, what to do with Nady/Swisher, CF, or if Posada can effectively return to catching?
Manny could very well appear in Yankee land.
Of course, it will be in a road uni.
Jeter is my favorite Yankee of all time. I think “the flip” is the greatest play ever made by a shortstop. I think he deserves to keep playing shortstop until his arm gets weaker.
However, lets be realistic guys. He just isn’t very good in the field going to his left. That’s not saying he doesn’t deserve to play the position, its just a weakness in his game much like ARod and his fear of popups and men in scoring position in the playoffs.
Saying that stats don’t matter is pretty ignorant and to say that we can’t judge his defense because we don’t know the speed and placement of every ball that goes to Jeters left is an insane defense.
The stats confirm who we all know are great on defense so why would they lie about who isn’t very good?
very original post.
If Damon has a good season, look for the yankees to keep him a couple more years, or try to. He is still productive.
Tim Clougher
January 14th, 2009 at 9:29 am
SJ:
I would love to see you eat your words again, it will be comical….
—-
Tim, I was going to say that but held back lol.
Oops, 1 more thing (Columbo like)
SJ, you don’t know that we haven’t talked to Boras about Manny. We might not have met with Manny but we don’t really need to. He has already expressed his desire to play in the Bronx and we all know he doesn’t belong in the NL.
If you watched the Tex presser then you saw that little gleem in Boras eyes when asked about Manny and the Yankees. Boras isn’t stupid and will at least keep the thought of the Yankees out there to help drive the market.
I hope Tim and I get to say I told you so, though I doubt it
At this point, i dont see Manny being happy anywhere. He probably feel insulted and if he does, he may not play it out wherever he goes.
Tex’s New Best Friend
January 14th, 2009 at 9:34 am
If Damon has a good season, look for the yankees to keep him a couple more years, or try to. He is still productive.
—-
With this years trend at what price? Damon will want to stay and will be worth more to the Yanks than anyone else. At what price will he stay? 8mm per like Burrell?
Maybe AJ will pay some of his salary since he told Cash he had to keep him around for a couple of more years.
“Stealth” Cashman’s reputation probably fuels a lot of the talk. It’s good. Keeps people on their toes!
What do people feel about the debate that players up for HOF consideration should not be judged by the statistics that are available today that weren’t prevalent during their player years?
I’ve seen older players quoted as saying, basically, “shoot, I could have been on base more, but they didn’t look at on-base percentage back then.” What about that? (Jim Rice said this; but then Henderson played in about the same era and he got on base any way he could.) I suppose it goes to how you define what your job is. Rickey’s job, simply, was to get on base and score; Jim Rice, as he saw it, was probably to make sure the Rickey Hendersons of the world scored.
Is it oversimplifying to say that in baseball there are the guys who score and the guys who drive ‘em in? And if you’re a guy who is high in both categories, you’re a more valuable player than a guy who does one or the other?
Patrick – Hit the nail right on the head.
It has become “conventional wisdom” that Jeter is in his decline. I have yet to see any proof of this. He was hitting at around .320 when he broke a bone in his hand and in a season where we were hit hard by injuries, he played through the pain, albeit at a lower standard than we are used to. Finally, as his hand healed, he started to hit again and brought his average up to .300. Without that injury, this is a MOOT point.
Jeter will not be moved until there’s an extremely good reason to do so. Either a big time SS prospect (of which we have none) or a big time SS free agent (Hanley Ramirez).
Ah! I remember what Kennedy said – he said the Yankees will probably get the “last call” on Manny.
“Jeter has character. Pettitte doesn’t”
Come on now. that’s just silly. OK the HGH was a mistake but other than that, Pettite has proved himself to be a man with strong moral convictions.
Jeter just caught a nice break with that 10 yr deal.
Otherwise, Mr. Nike, Gatorade, Fleet Bank, Discover, Tag Heuer, Florsheim, VISA, Ford, Gilette, XM Radio and of course Avon would be just like every other guy at contract time.
Hat in hand with suitcase packed.
I don’t think the Yanks have to move an OF. The way I look at it you could have a core lineup of Swisher LF, Damon CF, Nady RF with Gardner and Cabrera as subs, late inning defensive upgrades, occasional starts, pinch runners and so on.
Damon isn’t a 162 game CF, but if he played there half the time, wiht the late inning defensive help he would be adequate. The Yanks would end up with two pretty darn good players on the bench at all times.
The only issue with that sextet is three hit LH, one hits RH with two SH. Melky as we all know has been awful hitting RH, which is why I would love to add Wigginton to this mix. Between 2B, LF, RF, DH I can find a place in the lineup for him almost every day and his career ops+ vs LHP is 122.
Yankee Ray
If you’re still out there… where u coaching now???
Thanks for a good post, Scott.
I disagree with anyone who thinks this isn’t an issue worth discussing. We didn’t just sign Jeter to a new contract and he isn’t just some player. He will be a FA in two seasons and is the face of the franchise. He will be too young and productive to retire, but he also plays a position that is traditionally tough to handle for relatively older players.
I also don’t see why considering the challenge Jeter may pose in 2011 shows disrespect for him now. I don’t see anyone clamoring to replace Jeter this season. Yes, his defense isn’t great, but his bat more than compensates for it. We’ll just have to see if that’s still in the case after two more seasons. If it isn’t, the Yankees will have to make some tough decisions.
As for whether Jeter is a good fielder, there will always be two camps: the “stathead” group who use fielding stats to say Jeter is not a good fielder, and the “purist” group who reject fielding stats and think Jeter is a good fielder because of plays they observed or out of respect for Jeter’s Gold Gloves and reputation. (Of course I’m sure there also “purists” who think Jeter is a bad fielder too, but most are probably not Yankee fans.) Any debate between these two groups is pointless because each fundamentally rejects the decision-making methods of the other.
Doreen
January 14th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Ah! I remember what Kennedy said – he said the Yankees will probably get the “last call” on Manny.
—-
We always do and that is what I have been saying all along. It’s just a matter of what Cash wants to do with it. If he has things cooking on Nady and others than he would have to make a decision then.
If Cash had absolutely no interest in Manny than he may have already told Boras that and he may never get that call. This we may never know.
Why is everybody so focused on Jeter not providing typical offense in any certain position? Does Damon provide typical offense in left field? Did Rickey? I think table setters are guys you absolutely need on your team and they have to play somewhere, so we have to find a spot for Jeter. I am fine with him staying at short because I don’t think he is losing as many games for us with his glove as he might if he did not bring all that he brings to the table on offense, like pretty much any other shortstop in the big leagues not named Hanley Ramirez (who I think is actually worse on defense than Jeter). Everybody wants to criticize him, but nobody has ever mentioned a player that they would rather have at short, given the full picture of Jeter’s abilities.
“I believe if the Boston team had Manny in the line-up, they would have beat Tampa..”
Tim, I actually agree that had Manny been in the line-up against Tampa it would have made the difference.
The Sox seemed to miss that key hit which Manny excels at.
However, this may sound strange. But things had really gone down hill in those days right before manny was traded.
It is true that the media played it up, but I also saw it with my own eyes. I was at one of the games and clearly Manny was dogging it.
If they had kept manny ironically I am not sure they would have made it to the playoffs. Despite the players were saying the friction and all the distractions were affecting their play, and after manny left they had one of the best records in baseball.
Only problem is Tim, I won’t eat my words. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. But, I’m not wrong on this one.
Unlike Teixeira, who had people in the organization very interested in him (as well as having a big need for him), the only person in the Yankee organization clamoring for Manny was Hank. That was prior to signing Teixeira.
Now that Teixeira has signed, they aren’t signing Manny. To do so, would mean they would have to go into salary dump mode to afford him.
With the money the Yankees have spent this off-season, how many teams to do you think will want to help the Yankees out in that siutation? That would be ZERO.
The Yankees priority right now is to find another starting pitcher. Not to sign a DH, with a questionable attitude, for huge money that would then force them to go into salary dump mode.
They are interested in solving problems and not creating new one’s.
Come on now. that’s just silly. OK the HGH was a mistake but other than that, Pettite has proved himself to be a man with strong moral convictions.
Really? Ditching the Yankees when they didnt make him feel loved in 03, ditching Houston in 06-07 for the same reason, saying he wants to play in New Yankee stadium, money is not an issue, then refusing 10 M? You’re right, what a saint, and i actually like Pettitte.
If you can guarantee one thing, it is that Derek Jeter will retire a Yankee, and possible breaking Pete Rose’s hit record if he can stay healthy into his 40s. Will he still be playing SS by then, probably not, but he will STILL be a Yankee.
Doreen—-
I believe the best players score AND drive in runs. I will take high numbers in those categories over OPS, OPS+, OBP and other such numbers. Runs and RBI are the successful result of those other stats. Runs and RBI win games. OBP and OPS only measure individual performance.
A high OBP for Henderson is hugely valuable because he stole bases, scored from first on doubles and was generally easy to drive in. A high OBP from a moose like Giambi is far less valuable.
ray (sox fan:
Hey Ray, Boston was scary with Manny in there line-up, I really believe had the union stade together Boston would of over came Tampa.
I don’t condone what Manny did to leave Boston, I’m sure his agent had some influence there, it would be the 1st time Boras gave out bad advice, ala A-rod opt out during the WS.
But I don’t feel because he screwed with Boston, NY shouldn’t sign him.. to me he is that kind of difference maker
“What do people feel about the debate that players up for HOF consideration should not be judged by the statistics that are available today that weren’t prevalent during their player years?”
I think it’s a silly position. The goal for hitters has always been to get on base and to advance as many bases as possible.
Yes, Rice was a power hitter and his job was to drive runs in, not set the table. And he did that pretty well. But the truly elite power hitters, the ones who are really “feared,” get on base a lot more than Rice did because (a) pitchers pitch them carefully and (b) they don’t give away outs on bad pitches.
This has been the case throughout baseball history, not just in the last ten years.
Also, one of the best things about modern stats like OPS+ is that they allow comparison of players to their peers from the same era. Rice was a good, not great, hitter for his time. He wasn’t playing in some era where players categorically failed to get on base.
SJ44:
I know highly unlikely but I would like to see it happen, I guess never say never..:) I hope I’m right..
86
So true. I never really liked the “slugger” who was up there pushing for a walk when there were opportunities to hit a good pitch somewhere in the count.
As much as OBP and getting on base is a generally a positive thing, if a player clogs the basepaths it can sometimes actually work in reverse (ie. prevent runs). I have always thought that for the “power hitters” the purpose of taking pitches with men on base was more to get a pitch in your zone, not to draw the walk, though that would occasionally happen of course.
“. . . its just a weakness in his game much like ARod and his fear of popups and men in scoring position in the playoffs.”
That’s nonsense. ARod has a total of 147 playoff ABs and a line of .279/.373./.483. That’s very good considering that, in the playoffs, you are typically facing another great team’s #1 or #2 starter.
I don’t know what his numbers are with RISP in the playoffs (do you?), but he’s obviously had some great playoff performances to go along with some bad ones. If you’re just limiting it to RISP situations, that’s obviously going to be a very small sample. Way too small to infer that Alex possesses the TRAIT of “fear[ing] . . . men in scoring position in the playoffs.”
“I believe the best players score AND drive in runs. I will take high numbers in those categories over OPS, OPS+, OBP and other such numbers. Runs and RBI are the successful result of those other stats. Runs and RBI win games. OBP and OPS only measure individual performance.”
If you assemble a team with as many high OPS players as possible, I guarantee you they will all have high runs scored and RBI totals. Runs and RBI are a product of getting on base and hitting for power, not the other way around.
“As much as OBP and getting on base is a generally a positive thing, if a player clogs the basepaths it can sometimes actually work in reverse (ie. prevent runs).”
A “clogging the basepaths” reference! If only FJM were still around.
Under no circumstances in baseball does having a player on base prevent runs from being scored. The notion that having a slow player on base is somehow a bad thing is one of the craziest ideas ever advanced in sports.
That said, it’s obviously true that, all other things being equal, a speedy hitter is better than a slow hitter.
You’re kidding, right Jeremy?
How many runs would Rickey NOT have scored with an elephant on base in front of him?
“Saying that stats don’t matter is pretty ignorant and to say that we can’t judge his defense because we don’t know the speed and placement of every ball that goes to Jeters left is an insane defense.”
vincent-
“ignorant” and “insane” ? are you sure you want to go down that road?
do you even have a clue what the methodology that the fielding bible uses? it’s based on someone like you sitting in dewan’s “basement” looking at every ball put in play and judging it.
why don’t we judge the speed of a pitch that way? the answer is because it would be too subjective and also because we do have radar guns.
range is how fast a player gets to a ball when making the play. you have to know where a payer starts and how far he has to go. you also have to know the velocity of the ball. is there a system that presently measures these things as well as an accurate radar gun measure mph?
the answer is no.
you are thinking that present range systems are objective when they are based on very subjective data.
Doreen
January 14th, 2009 at 9:42 am
“Stealth” Cashman’s reputation probably fuels a lot of the talk. It’s good. Keeps people on their toes!
What do people feel about the debate that players up for HOF consideration should not be judged by the statistics that are available today that weren’t prevalent during their player years?
I’ve seen older players quoted as saying, basically, “shoot, I could have been on base more, but they didn’t look at on-base percentage back then.” What about that? (Jim Rice said this; but then Henderson played in about the same era and he got on base any way he could.) I suppose it goes to how you define what your job is. Rickey’s job, simply, was to get on base and score; Jim Rice, as he saw it, was probably to make sure the Rickey Hendersons of the world scored.
Is it oversimplifying to say that in baseball there are the guys who score and the guys who drive ‘em in? And if you’re a guy who is high in both categories, you’re a more valuable player than a guy who does one or the other?
————————————————————
That’s exactly what it is, Doreen. Depending on what the player’s strong points were, that’s what their job and stats will show. There’s no question that Hendeson could have been a #3 hitter for any team, but, his was his batting eye and speed that made him ideal to lead off a game…he got on base and he didn’t just steal bases, he distracted pitchers and the defense. Mickey Mantle, with his batting eye and his unbelievable speed would have been an ideal leadoff batter, but, it was his one of a kind power that had him batting 3rd and cleanup.
Managers have the job of figuring out what’s best for the team, and, therefore have a lot to do with what a players numbers look like. Back in ‘61, Mantle was supposed to hit third and Maris 4th, buth Maris started in a slump, and Mantle was hitting everything. Houk switched them in the order and Maris had the protection he needed and Mantle still hit everything. Had Mantle stayed hitting third, he certainly would have had more homers and RBIs than Maris, but, Maris most likely would never have had his season. Houk’s move affected both players and improved the team.
Anyway, I doubt that I answered you, but, just wanted to say that you were right. I think….
Alex’s numbers last year were still better than 95% of the league. We can put the RISP responsibility solely on him, but i am certain i remember that no one on our team could drive in runs last year and the problem Alex had was that he felt he had to be the one to win the game for us, hence swinging for the fences and ending up in a double play or pop-up.
With better pitching and Tex, and a healthy Posada, Matsui, a better Cano and Cabrera, hopefully he wont be responsible for winning the game every night anymore. PLus it is an ODD year to expect a big season.
Prediction (if healthy) .310 44HR 129RBI
Agreed on clogging the basepaths. Was Giambi really so slow that, if he were on second base, he could not only fail to score on a given play, but also prevent a runner on FIRST from scoring on that same play? Or put it this way: was there another runner further down the lineup who was more than twice as fast as Giambi?
Jeremy, I was a slow runner and it cost me my spot in the lineup 1 year. The fact is that slow runners slow down offenses. Giambi, Posada and others cost us many runs by not being able to go 1st to 3rd or score on a single from second.
They are the ones that need 3 hits to score from first.
Not a good formula for success.
SS I’d take ahead of Jeter right now…..
Ramirez, Reyes, Hardy, Rollins, Escobar. That’s it. So, unless you can get one of those guys in the next year or two this discussion is moot until Jeter’s contract comes up. Hardy is a FA after the 2010 season just like Jete. There’s your possible replacement for Jeter at that time. Jete moves to LF/DH, Hardy takes over at SS.
Reyes? Really?!? Ramirez is it…
YankeeRay:
Exactly that why you get Manny to clear the bases…:)
Jeremy -
But did players walk as much as they do now? Or “work the count?”
Again, just listening to sports talk radio, in a conversation about how much longer the games last these days, one of the things that came up was players working the count more now – a strategy to get on base via walk as much as it is trying to get a pitch to hit and to force the starter into throwing as many pitches as possible in order to get to a weaker bullpen.
I think the game is managed differently now than it was then and I think a hitter’s approach then wouldn’t be as “complicated” as it sometimes seems to be now. Do the players themselves concern themselves with stats as much as many fans do? Clearly some players “see the ball, hit the ball,” and others take other variables into account in their at-bats. So, Jim Rice basically says, if he was aware of different statistics, he may have taken a different approach. I don’t know that I buy that. I think a guy plays the way he plays. And I think he was talking more in terms of contract negotiations – the more positive stats you can cite, the more money you can angle for.
I agree that sometimes Giambi’s taking the walk wasn’t the best thing – as you said, he’s a basepath clogger. But in a strong power-hitting lineup like the Yankees had for most of Giambi’s time here, was it necessarily undesirable? And if there’s no one on base at the time, is a walk any different from a single?
I love this game. There’s really so much you can think about and talk about. And each viewpoint has, it seems, as many arguments in support as it does to the contrary.
ARod, to me, is such a good player because he scores almost as many runs as he drives in, even in a down year.
There is no SS, I would take over Jeter…
You cannot replace what he brings to the Yanks, it’s priceless…
You had me, up until this comment:
” Jeter’s offensive output doesn’t justify an outfield position.”
Derek Jeter, career OPS+120
Johnny Damon, career OPS+103
Do your homework if you want to be a serious writer.
I think it’s Jeter in LF in 2010.
Look at it this way, using Rickey as the example…
You got Giambi on first base in front of him. One out. Rickey walks. Now runners on first and second.
Now, Rickey ain’t stealing 2nd base here is he? Next hitter hits a soft single, not scoring Giambi but maybe scores Rickey. Next two hitters whiff. No runs.
Or Rickey, not being able to advance to 2nd via steal or a pitch that gets a little bit away from the catcher, and free the force out, is taken out in a 4-6-3 DP by the next batter. Inning over. No runs.
Just a couple examples here folks.
That being said, the original wording was that OBP is a positive, but that sometimes slow runners can prevent runs.
In most instances – of course – having runners of any kind on base is preferable.
In regards to Jeter’s defense….
It’s been below average for since ‘05 until last year. The stats say it has been, the scouts say it has been. When they both agree on something, you gotta believe what they’re saying. It improved to about league average last year. But before that, it was BAD. Please stop debating this point. Especially with the ‘trust your eyes’ argument since the guys with the best trained eyes (namely the scouts) say the same thing the stats say.
Now, his bat has made up for the poor defense all those years. In 2005, he ranked as the 6th best SS. In 2006, the best. In 2007, the 10th best. Last year, the 6th best. If he can sustain the defensive improvement he showed last year and revert to his career norms at the plate, he has a good chance to finish in the top 3 or 4 at the position this year. So, at this time, there isn’t a need to move him.
From jennifer
What is wrong with people? Do you think Scott submitted his blog entry last night? Pete has likely had these for some time.
–
Jennifer, you’re the smartest person on the board. Pete’s original request, which asked for topics on Dec 15th, stated
“I do ask this: Please have a very specific, focused subject in mind, not just your take on the 2008 season or what other moves you think the team should make. By the time your piece is published, all the moves will probably be made.”
Randy, I already went down that road, but lets just throw out stats for a second. Watch the games and you can see where Jeter is playing and where the ball is going and relatively how fast its going. You don’t need an excel spreadsheet graphing speed to see that. If you watch enough baseball you know the difference between a routine play and a non-routine play. Jeter actually played more to his left last year than in years past and saw some results. After watching Jeter play an inning you can then watch the opposing teams shortstop and watch the same things and make a comparison. Dont tell me that balls go faster when Jeter is in the field than anyone else. You are making excuses.
Listen, stats aren’t perfect yet but they give us a very good indication for player performance. You can dismiss stats all you want but more and more GMs aren’t including Brian Cashman.
“range is how fast a player gets to a ball when making the play. you have to know where a payer starts and how far he has to go. you also have to know the velocity of the ball. is there a system that presently measures these things as well as an accurate radar gun measure mph?”
Randy
That’s interesting. Who tells Jeter where to position himself for any given at bat? I wonder if bad positioning has played at least a small part, in his poor range issue? He does(from my untrained eye) seem to favor up the middle.
Doreen -
The stats actually show that batters are walking LESS now than in the 70s. The walk rate in the AL in 2008…8.6%; in 1979….8.7%. Joe Posnanski wrote a great piece about this for his blog. You can read it here…..
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlo.....d-fumbles/
“Under no circumstances in baseball does having a player on base prevent runs from being scored.”
this is obviously false. if posada was on 2nd base with and gardner on 1st, 1 out, damon hits a single, but posada cant score on it. gardner holds second, but likely would have made 3rd had jorge been able to score. then jeter hits a sac fly to center to score posada, then arod strikes out. gardner didnt score b/c of posada being too slow to score from 2nd base on a single.
It’s absurd to make the point that slow runners don’t clog the basepaths because they unquestionably do. That doesn’t mean you are better off if they make an out, But Giambi does more good going 1-5 with a three run HR than he does 1-3 with a single and 2 walks.
My point is that Runs and RBI are the SUCCESFUL result of high OBP and OPS. It reflects when guys get their hits, get on base etc and puts the stat in the context of helping their team win.
Jeremy— You can “guarantee” whatever you choose but OBP and OPS do not measure the most important things for the team. For the TEAM, I want guys who score runs and drive them in first and formost. That at least measures somewhat the value of when you got on base and what happens once you get there.
beatya to it ham! lol. just used rickey and Giambi instead of garrdner and posada
Tex’s New Best Friend:
I take Reyes over Jeter in a heartbeat. Rollins and Ramirez too. Would have to think a little longer on Hardy and Escobar but would ultimately take them over him too. You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think Reyes and Rollins are better than Jeter. And this is coming from a guy whose favorite player is none other than Derek Jeter.
as has been documented, im as against manny coming to the yankees as yankee ray and tim are in favor of it.
that being said after weeks of ‘no way they are signing teixeira’ posts by pete and others, you would think that people would avoid speaking in absolutes.
its highly unlikely that he’s coming, and the tex signing makes it much less likely than it was before, but this is the yankees, so you never know.
brad if i only typed faster…..shoulda paid attention in miss rose’s class…
Brad Pitt’s better-looking brother
January 14th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Look at it this way, using Rickey as the example…
You got Giambi on first base in front of him. One out. Rickey walks. Now runners on first and second.
Now, Rickey ain’t stealing 2nd base here is he? Next hitter hits a soft single, not scoring Giambi but maybe scores Rickey. Next two hitters whiff. No runs.
Or Rickey, not being able to advance to 2nd via steal or a pitch that gets a little bit away from the catcher, and free the force out, is taken out in a 4-6-3 DP by the next batter. Inning over. No runs.
Just a couple examples here folks.
That being said, the original wording was that OBP is a positive, but that sometimes slow runners can prevent runs.
In most instances – of course – having runners of any kind on base is preferable.
——
Not to mention the impact of a base stealer on base that distracts the pitcher.
Ask Mitch Williams how that worked out pitching to Joe Carter while he was being distracted by Ricky in game 6.
Also, why do you have to sit in a basement to read baseball prospectus? I’m in the office.
ham fighters
January 14th, 2009 at 10:39 am
brad if i only typed faster…..shoulda paid attention in miss rose’s class…
—–
Had the hottest girls in my typing class and I still suck, wonder why?
Exactly Ham!
We seem to agree on about everything.
You must be a MENSA member too?
I think everyone agrees that fast runners are better than slow runners. No one is saying otherwise.
Things get challenging when a team has to gauge the value of speed against other abilities, like the ability to get on base or hit for power.
The “clogging the basepaths” argument is often used to say that a slow player with a high OPS is less valuable than a fast player with a lower OPS. In the vast majority of cases, the numbers don’t back up the argument. Getting on base is the single most important skill any hitter can have.
The example ham fighters provided of a slow player actually preventing a run from scoring looks fine to me, but it’s really no different than a situation where a player isn’t fast enough to score on a hit and then gets stranded. He doesn’t “prevent” a run from scoring, he just isn’t fast enough to score.
But again, everything goes back to the very simple concept that a hitter’s goal in baseball is to get on base and score a run. Speed certainly factors into that. I just don’t agree with the argument that a slow player who gets on base alot somehow shuts down scoring opportunities. By getting on base, he automatically creates a scoring opportunity. Yes, a faster player can score more easily, but that’s irrelvant unless the faster player can get on base in the first place.
Yankee Ray
lol. All you need to do that’s important in typing class is to be able to type their phone numbers quickly I think.
You still coaching, btw? and where?
“Randy, I already went down that road”.
what road was that vincent?
you don’t seem understand the methodology of the stats you use. how many people judge a ball in play that goes into a fielder’s area ? one , two, ten ? you have no idea do you?
i’m not against stats. i’m against people who don’t know how to use them.
don’t reward Manny for being a nanny with a yankee contract!! He is a great hitter and he is a great????????????????????????????????? uh jerk! I love the guy on the dodgers or any other nl team. No one should reward him for this last stunt. Play the year out mr unhappy then go make yourself happy. I’m kinda unhappy at 18$ an hour here in tampa. Change jobs in a ny second if I could, cant. Now maybe just maybe Manny is finding out he should’nt have. Hoping so anyway.
iv always considered randy johnson a quitter b/c he pulled a manny to get out of seattle. when the yankees started talking about trading for him, i was almost as against that as i am now about manny. but they went and got randy anyway.
(i predicted at the time that vazquez would win more games over the life of randy’s extended contract but they ended up tied at 49 wins.)
so that told me 2 things: first that the yankees would sign a quitter (and give him a ridiculous extension) if they thought it could win them a world series, and second that having a guy you hate on the team doesnt ruin rooting for the team and eventually the quitter goes away.
i am now trying to apply that toward manny. i would hate it if they sign him but id also get over it.
lets hope it doesnt happen.
Brad Pitt’s better-looking brother
January 14th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Yankee Ray
lol. All you need to do that’s important in typing class is to be able to type their phone numbers quickly I think.
You still coaching, btw? and where?
—-
Brad, I played for the late great Doug Robins in Levittown. He diel last year and is the all time winningest HS coach in NY.
I coached with him for 2 yrs after I coached college for 2 yrs.
Now I live in South Florida where I am coaching my sons 13 yr old travel team. We have had a travel team for 6 years now and it is a blast. Very competitive down here, much more so than where I grew up. We just went to cooperstown this summer and play in many National travel tournaments throughout Florida.
Pretty good stuff and it’s year round.
All of you who have Hanley Ramirez over Jeter are contradicting yourself. This started as a discussion about defense. And Hanley don’t play defense! Great offsenive player and great in your fantasy baseball leagues. But defensively, he is terrible at SS, he’ll be moved to LF/CF as soon as Florida decides to trade him for 5 minor leaguers. JJ Hardy is also terrible in the field. He’s had one decent offsenive year to date.
Only Reyes and Rollins can outplay Jeter BOTH offensively and defensively.
“But again, everything goes back to the very simple concept that a hitter’s goal in baseball is to get on base and score a run.”
reading this i am again amazed by rickey henderson’s record for most runs in history. combined with his abliity to walk, hit and steal, rickey is one of the greatest offensive players in the history of the game, a true walking legend.
weird as he is, he has to figure into the discussion of the top 10 offensive players ever to play the game. he’s not just a hall of famer, he’s like an upper classman.
The road leading towards idiotic statements and ignorance, but you already knew that because you quoted me in your first response but this isnt about nastiness its about opinion.
The point was about Jeter and his defense not the development of statistical methodology. You can see with your eyes that his defense is subpar and the stats back this up much like the stats back up the eyes that Nick Swisher is better than a .213 hitter. I’m not sure what is so hard to understand here.
Yankee Ray
Well, enjoy your kids’ team and the opportunity to coach it while you can. I did the same thing here in NYS. High school, college, area all star leagues and all that. Done with that now but had a lot of great times.
I have two that will prolly be pitching in college. One is a HS senior this year (lefty) and is going through the selection process of colleges now. He’ll be under scholarship and I have a 15 year old who might have a chance when his time comes too (alas a righty).
You are right, southern ball is more competitive and better. Wish the sun shone here 12 months of the year.
Ham
Right.
Some of the greatest in their fields in all areas of life have been a little weird. Cobb, Rose, Ruth, even Manny of today if you are looking at stats alone. That’s just in baseball. In the Arts the list is to long to even begin… Business…
So, maybe there’s hope for us?
Jeter will be the Yankee SS until 2010 and likely beyond. The Steinbrenner’s will do everything they can to avoid him wearing another uniform because it is good for the franchise and they will find a way to make it work for the team. With the Yankees, what’s good for the franchise and what is good for the team can be 2 different things.
However, when the topic of Jeter comes up, so many people who use stats and logic when it comes to others suddenly become mother robins, ready to defend the nest to the death and sometimes re-writing history in the process.
Jeter has been and will continue to be a great Yankee but many of the reasons why are based on emotion.
In what universe would Rickey Henderson be batting behind Jason Giambi?
BD
Ummmm, like I said, it was an “example.”
Plug in the name of anyone you want if that makes it make more sense to you.
Snatchmike:
You had me, up until this comment:
” Jeter’s offensive output doesn’t justify an outfield position.”
Derek Jeter, career OPS+120
Johnny Damon, career OPS+103
Do your homework if you want to be a serious writer.
I think it’s Jeter in LF in 2010.
–
It probably would have been better for the writer to say “Jeter’s offensive output WON’T justify…”
Damon’s OPS+ of 103 means he’s just above average. That’s ok but maybe not worth $13 million. Bobby Abreu put up a 120 OPS+ last season. He won’t be making $13 million and I didn’t see people begging for his return. Different economy, but value is value.
If Jeter has an OPS+ of 103 in 2011 and is in left field making what he’s making now, $21.6 million, does that make sense? Jeter brings a lot more to the table as far as marketing and income so you can balance some of his salary with that, but you also have to figure how much overpaying a player at whatever his offensive output will be at that age will add to the luxury tax. If you’re paying Jeter $10 million more than he’s worth, you’re actually paying $14 million because of the 40% luxury tax.
Not our money so who cares, but if the reports are to be believed, the Yankees pulled back on Pettitte because Teixeira’s contract put them at their max. Jeter getting paid to be Derek Jeter rather than for his performance value will have some effect on the makeup of the rest of the team.
As long as Jeter’s giving you good production and fair defense, AND you don’t have anyone ready, I don’t think you need to have this discussion. There really aren’t going to be better options from outside without trades. Michael Young is experiencing the same sort of dropoff and has the same defensive critics, Peralta has power but is more of a 3B in SS’s clothing. Aviles could make a case if he kept up that production, but maybe he moves to second. I don’t think Alexei Ramirez has played enough short to know and he gets a boost from that ballpark. The other guys might as well be Jim Mason compared to him.
“The road leading towards idiotic statements and ignorance,”
i see you know that road well.
Brian NYY -
Wrong. Hanley’s bat is so much better than Jeter’s that it more than makes up for the worse defense (which was only slightly worse last year. Hanley improved a lot from the year before – much like Jeter – and was close to league average defensively). Hanley was the most valuable SS in all of baseball last year. Offense and Defense combined.
Randy Johnson did not quit in Seattle. That’s a baseless accusation. He made 23 starts (9-10 4.33) for them and was traded to Houston for three guys before he could leave as a FA.
He went 10-1 with the Astros and then signed with Arizona as a FA.
Making up crap to impugn someone’s character is classy stuff.
Also, JJ Hardy is NOT terrible in the field. He’s one of the best defensive SS in the game.
Randy l:
do you even have a clue what the methodology that the fielding bible uses? it’s based on someone like you sitting in dewan’s “basement” looking at every ball put in play and judging it.
you are thinking that present range systems are objective when they are based on very subjective data.
–
Is it any more or less subjective than people on this board who trust their eyes over people like Dewan who are working towards finding a better way to judge defense? The methods are subjective, but they are subjective based on a standard, much moreso than the “Jeter rules” perspective.
Dewan’s work may not be perfect, but it is one of few metrics that are trying to judge fielding better. Soon, maybe a better way of judging will happen. Personally, I will take the work of someone who has made it their goal to improve in that area over armchair forum critics.
rodg12:
what games are you watching?
Hanley Ramirez and JJ Hardy consistently botch easy plays. While Jeter’s most glaring defensive issue is going left, at least he makes the plays he’s supposed to make.
If you’re just going spit out stats of a study done by some group that doesn’t unerstand the game of baseball, well I’ll reserve my comments for them.
But in the game of baseball and as a starting defensive player, your job is to make the plays you’re supposed to make and if you make plays on top off that, that makes you a great defensive player. You can’t just make a couple of highlight plays to get on sportscenter and botch the grounder right to you. I have seen both Hardy and Ramirez consistently bobble grounders where they are forced to charge the ball a bit.
Again, if we all know that Jeter hasbn’t been able to go left since the day he came up, I’m sure we’ll deal with that for the next 5-6 years as long as we win some championships.
Now, I do agree that Hanley’s offense is far superior but I’ll take that in my fantasy league and not on my real team. On my real team, I’d ask him to make his move to LF or CF, where he belongs.
Further…
The Yankees can’t get Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley in the next 4 years to force Jeter to move from SS.
JJ Hardy becomes FA in 2010 and does anyone feel that he is so far superior to Jeter that he is worth pushing Jeter to LF or DH? As of this present moment, I don’t think so. You’d be getting a marginally better defensive shortstop and a marginally better offensive player.
My point is that unless you can realistically acquire Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley (for the bat), discussing Jeter’s move to any other position should not even be happening. Cal Ripjken moved because Baltimore felt that they had a whole at 3B where Cal could fill in and Mike Bordick was an upgrade to their 3B at the time. In 3-4 years, we would only move Jeter to LF if LF or Jeter are playing so poorly, that signing JJ Hardy or trading our blue chip pitching for Hanley would be the improvement the Yankees need (at the time) to get them over the hump.
Brian NYY -
I played college baseball my man. I understand the game. The study that spit out the numbers I’m using was so good that the St. Louis Cardinals hired the guy who came up with the numbers to be in their front office to aid them in their evaluation of defensive players. That good enough credentials for you? Your observations of Hardy just don’t hold water. Even if you go by a flawed statistic like Fielding Percentage, he’s Jeter’s equal in not making errors. Add in the fact that he has much better range than Jeter and that gives you a better fielder. Plain and simple. And, like I said, I really like Derek Jeter. He’s my favorite player. But, that doesn’t cause me to put the blinders on and ignore the evidence that says he is far inferior to JJ Hardy defensively.
College Baseball, so did I (4 year starter at 3B), so throwing that around doesn’t impress me. And if they use it in St. Louis, good for them.
I just asked what games you were watching, and true I haven’t seen every game JJ Hardy has played, but when I do watch him, he’s not that impressive. He’s a nice ball player but not the solution.
My point is this:
The Yankees probably can’t get Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley in the next 4 years to force Jeter to move from SS.
JJ Hardy becomes FA in 2010 and I don’t feel (my opinion)that he is so far superior to Jeter that he is worth pushing Jeter to LF or DH. You’d be getting a marginally better defensive shortstop and a marginally better offensive player.
My point is that unless you can realistically acquire Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley (for the bat), discussing Jeter’s move to any other position should not even be happening. Cal Ripken moved because Baltimore felt that they had a hole at 3B where Cal could fill in and Mike Bordick was an upgrade to their 3B at the time. In 3-4 years, we would only move Jeter to LF if LF or Jeter are playing so poorly, that signing JJ Hardy or trading our blue chip pitching for Hanley would be the improvement the Yankees need to get them over the hump.
If nothing else, Derek Jeter is a class act – and of course – he has been much, much more. Following his current contract I believe Jeter and the Yankees will negotiate a new, short [2 year] contract and that Jeter will retire with deserved fanfare after that – or sooner if he feels he is no longer making a viable contribution to the team/playing as he hopes to for the fans. Of course, the Yankees have cut short the careers of aging stars before – Phil Rizzuto comes to mind – but Phil moved on to a new career behind the microphone and became even more of a legend in the boradcaster’s booth then he was on the field! Jeter will do the right thing – and whatever is necessary to help the team – including moving his defensive position. I agree that the knock on him for his play at SS is unwarranted; he tries to make players other players wouldn’t even attempt and his ’sense of the field around him’ is truly amazing [his play relaying a throw from the OF to Posada standing on the 1B line!]. And don’t worry about what management spends to secure and continue his services – they can afford it. Pity the team couldn’t pay Pettite 6 million to pitch just the first half of the season – with an option for the 2nd half!
Brian -
You threw out some comment about ‘not understanding the game’ or some crap that people spew when they see a stat that isn’t giving them the results they want, that’s why I mentioned the college baseball experience. Go back and read my posts (especially the first and second ones). I’m mostly in agreement with what you said. I only listed 5 guys I’d replace Jeter with currently and said that it’s not something we need to do right now. I just value Hardy more than you do and think he’s a viable replacement to Jeter when he becomes a FA after Jeter’s contract expires. Whether you wish to believe it or not, Hardy is a more valuable SS than Jeter is currently – about a 2 win upgrade. He’s definitely more than a ‘marginal’ upgrade defensively; he’s much, much better – and that’s using last years stats which were Jeter’s best since ‘04. Hopefully Jeter can still play SS in 2011, but I’m not counting on it. History is definitely not on his side in that regard.
I will agree to disagree.
Far superior means that he gets more chances and fields his position better than Jeter.
Taking a weighted average of Hardy’s total Chances by his fielding percentage: we get to .976861 with an average of 542 total chances (excluding his 2nd season). Taking Jeter’s stats – 2003 (when he was hurt) his weighted average is .977469 with average of 635 total chances.
I’m NOT saying that JJ Hardy is a terrible player (he has averaged 25 HRs the last 2 years). He’s a good player, I’m saying that his presence on the field is not a HUGE improvement to Jeter. In two years, this may totally change because Hardy starts hitting 35 HRs a year while Jeter continues his decline.
I think we all love and respect Jeter as the Hall of Famer he is. I just believe that his play is not as bad as statistically perceived where it is worth thinking of his replacement before he retires.
“I think we all love and respect Jeter as the Hall of Famer he is.”
That’s at least one thing we can definitely agree on.
Good discussion here Brian.
Wacky?
Really?
Hmmmm.