Comments on: Pinch hitting: The Bronx View http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/ A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:45:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Whitey Fraud http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/comment-page-5/#comment-641861 Whitey Fraud Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:25:59 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/?p=6126#comment-641861 Wacky? Really? Hmmmm. Wacky?

Really?

Hmmmm.

]]> By: rodg12 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/comment-page-5/#comment-641831 rodg12 Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:07:29 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/?p=6126#comment-641831 "I think we all love and respect Jeter as the Hall of Famer he is." That's at least one thing we can definitely agree on. ;) Good discussion here Brian. “I think we all love and respect Jeter as the Hall of Famer he is.”

That’s at least one thing we can definitely agree on. ;) Good discussion here Brian.

]]> By: Brian NYY http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/comment-page-4/#comment-641778 Brian NYY Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:36:54 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/?p=6126#comment-641778 I will agree to disagree. Far superior means that he gets more chances and fields his position better than Jeter. Taking a weighted average of Hardy's total Chances by his fielding percentage: we get to .976861 with an average of 542 total chances (excluding his 2nd season). Taking Jeter's stats - 2003 (when he was hurt) his weighted average is .977469 with average of 635 total chances. I'm NOT saying that JJ Hardy is a terrible player (he has averaged 25 HRs the last 2 years). He's a good player, I'm saying that his presence on the field is not a HUGE improvement to Jeter. In two years, this may totally change because Hardy starts hitting 35 HRs a year while Jeter continues his decline. I think we all love and respect Jeter as the Hall of Famer he is. I just believe that his play is not as bad as statistically perceived where it is worth thinking of his replacement before he retires. I will agree to disagree.

Far superior means that he gets more chances and fields his position better than Jeter.

Taking a weighted average of Hardy’s total Chances by his fielding percentage: we get to .976861 with an average of 542 total chances (excluding his 2nd season). Taking Jeter’s stats – 2003 (when he was hurt) his weighted average is .977469 with average of 635 total chances.

I’m NOT saying that JJ Hardy is a terrible player (he has averaged 25 HRs the last 2 years). He’s a good player, I’m saying that his presence on the field is not a HUGE improvement to Jeter. In two years, this may totally change because Hardy starts hitting 35 HRs a year while Jeter continues his decline.

I think we all love and respect Jeter as the Hall of Famer he is. I just believe that his play is not as bad as statistically perceived where it is worth thinking of his replacement before he retires.

]]> By: rodg12 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/comment-page-4/#comment-641735 rodg12 Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:55:33 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/?p=6126#comment-641735 Brian - You threw out some comment about 'not understanding the game' or some crap that people spew when they see a stat that isn't giving them the results they want, that's why I mentioned the college baseball experience. Go back and read my posts (especially the first and second ones). I'm mostly in agreement with what you said. I only listed 5 guys I'd replace Jeter with currently and said that it's not something we need to do right now. I just value Hardy more than you do and think he's a viable replacement to Jeter when he becomes a FA after Jeter's contract expires. Whether you wish to believe it or not, Hardy is a more valuable SS than Jeter is currently - about a 2 win upgrade. He's definitely more than a 'marginal' upgrade defensively; he's much, much better - and that's using last years stats which were Jeter's best since '04. Hopefully Jeter can still play SS in 2011, but I'm not counting on it. History is definitely not on his side in that regard. Brian -
You threw out some comment about ‘not understanding the game’ or some crap that people spew when they see a stat that isn’t giving them the results they want, that’s why I mentioned the college baseball experience. Go back and read my posts (especially the first and second ones). I’m mostly in agreement with what you said. I only listed 5 guys I’d replace Jeter with currently and said that it’s not something we need to do right now. I just value Hardy more than you do and think he’s a viable replacement to Jeter when he becomes a FA after Jeter’s contract expires. Whether you wish to believe it or not, Hardy is a more valuable SS than Jeter is currently – about a 2 win upgrade. He’s definitely more than a ‘marginal’ upgrade defensively; he’s much, much better – and that’s using last years stats which were Jeter’s best since ’04. Hopefully Jeter can still play SS in 2011, but I’m not counting on it. History is definitely not on his side in that regard.

]]> By: YankeeFanInExile http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/comment-page-4/#comment-641729 YankeeFanInExile Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:44:42 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/?p=6126#comment-641729 If nothing else, Derek Jeter is a class act - and of course - he has been much, much more. Following his current contract I believe Jeter and the Yankees will negotiate a new, short [2 year] contract and that Jeter will retire with deserved fanfare after that - or sooner if he feels he is no longer making a viable contribution to the team/playing as he hopes to for the fans. Of course, the Yankees have cut short the careers of aging stars before - Phil Rizzuto comes to mind - but Phil moved on to a new career behind the microphone and became even more of a legend in the boradcaster's booth then he was on the field! Jeter will do the right thing - and whatever is necessary to help the team - including moving his defensive position. I agree that the knock on him for his play at SS is unwarranted; he tries to make players other players wouldn't even attempt and his 'sense of the field around him' is truly amazing [his play relaying a throw from the OF to Posada standing on the 1B line!]. And don't worry about what management spends to secure and continue his services - they can afford it. Pity the team couldn't pay Pettite 6 million to pitch just the first half of the season - with an option for the 2nd half! If nothing else, Derek Jeter is a class act – and of course – he has been much, much more. Following his current contract I believe Jeter and the Yankees will negotiate a new, short [2 year] contract and that Jeter will retire with deserved fanfare after that – or sooner if he feels he is no longer making a viable contribution to the team/playing as he hopes to for the fans. Of course, the Yankees have cut short the careers of aging stars before – Phil Rizzuto comes to mind – but Phil moved on to a new career behind the microphone and became even more of a legend in the boradcaster’s booth then he was on the field! Jeter will do the right thing – and whatever is necessary to help the team – including moving his defensive position. I agree that the knock on him for his play at SS is unwarranted; he tries to make players other players wouldn’t even attempt and his ‘sense of the field around him’ is truly amazing [his play relaying a throw from the OF to Posada standing on the 1B line!]. And don’t worry about what management spends to secure and continue his services – they can afford it. Pity the team couldn’t pay Pettite 6 million to pitch just the first half of the season – with an option for the 2nd half!

]]> By: Brian NYY http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/comment-page-4/#comment-641700 Brian NYY Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:14:38 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/?p=6126#comment-641700 College Baseball, so did I (4 year starter at 3B), so throwing that around doesn't impress me. And if they use it in St. Louis, good for them. I just asked what games you were watching, and true I haven't seen every game JJ Hardy has played, but when I do watch him, he's not that impressive. He's a nice ball player but not the solution. My point is this: The Yankees probably can't get Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley in the next 4 years to force Jeter to move from SS. JJ Hardy becomes FA in 2010 and I don't feel (my opinion)that he is so far superior to Jeter that he is worth pushing Jeter to LF or DH. You'd be getting a marginally better defensive shortstop and a marginally better offensive player. My point is that unless you can realistically acquire Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley (for the bat), discussing Jeter's move to any other position should not even be happening. Cal Ripken moved because Baltimore felt that they had a hole at 3B where Cal could fill in and Mike Bordick was an upgrade to their 3B at the time. In 3-4 years, we would only move Jeter to LF if LF or Jeter are playing so poorly, that signing JJ Hardy or trading our blue chip pitching for Hanley would be the improvement the Yankees need to get them over the hump. College Baseball, so did I (4 year starter at 3B), so throwing that around doesn’t impress me. And if they use it in St. Louis, good for them.

I just asked what games you were watching, and true I haven’t seen every game JJ Hardy has played, but when I do watch him, he’s not that impressive. He’s a nice ball player but not the solution.

My point is this:

The Yankees probably can’t get Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley in the next 4 years to force Jeter to move from SS.

JJ Hardy becomes FA in 2010 and I don’t feel (my opinion)that he is so far superior to Jeter that he is worth pushing Jeter to LF or DH. You’d be getting a marginally better defensive shortstop and a marginally better offensive player.

My point is that unless you can realistically acquire Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley (for the bat), discussing Jeter’s move to any other position should not even be happening. Cal Ripken moved because Baltimore felt that they had a hole at 3B where Cal could fill in and Mike Bordick was an upgrade to their 3B at the time. In 3-4 years, we would only move Jeter to LF if LF or Jeter are playing so poorly, that signing JJ Hardy or trading our blue chip pitching for Hanley would be the improvement the Yankees need to get them over the hump.

]]> By: rodg12 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/comment-page-4/#comment-641664 rodg12 Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:45:30 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/?p=6126#comment-641664 Brian NYY - I played college baseball my man. I understand the game. The study that spit out the numbers I'm using was so good that the St. Louis Cardinals hired the guy who came up with the numbers to be in their front office to aid them in their evaluation of defensive players. That good enough credentials for you? Your observations of Hardy just don't hold water. Even if you go by a flawed statistic like Fielding Percentage, he's Jeter's equal in not making errors. Add in the fact that he has much better range than Jeter and that gives you a better fielder. Plain and simple. And, like I said, I really like Derek Jeter. He's my favorite player. But, that doesn't cause me to put the blinders on and ignore the evidence that says he is far inferior to JJ Hardy defensively. Brian NYY -
I played college baseball my man. I understand the game. The study that spit out the numbers I’m using was so good that the St. Louis Cardinals hired the guy who came up with the numbers to be in their front office to aid them in their evaluation of defensive players. That good enough credentials for you? Your observations of Hardy just don’t hold water. Even if you go by a flawed statistic like Fielding Percentage, he’s Jeter’s equal in not making errors. Add in the fact that he has much better range than Jeter and that gives you a better fielder. Plain and simple. And, like I said, I really like Derek Jeter. He’s my favorite player. But, that doesn’t cause me to put the blinders on and ignore the evidence that says he is far inferior to JJ Hardy defensively.

]]> By: Brian NYY http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/comment-page-4/#comment-641565 Brian NYY Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:38:43 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/?p=6126#comment-641565 Further... The Yankees can't get Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley in the next 4 years to force Jeter to move from SS. JJ Hardy becomes FA in 2010 and does anyone feel that he is so far superior to Jeter that he is worth pushing Jeter to LF or DH? As of this present moment, I don't think so. You'd be getting a marginally better defensive shortstop and a marginally better offensive player. My point is that unless you can realistically acquire Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley (for the bat), discussing Jeter's move to any other position should not even be happening. Cal Ripjken moved because Baltimore felt that they had a whole at 3B where Cal could fill in and Mike Bordick was an upgrade to their 3B at the time. In 3-4 years, we would only move Jeter to LF if LF or Jeter are playing so poorly, that signing JJ Hardy or trading our blue chip pitching for Hanley would be the improvement the Yankees need (at the time) to get them over the hump. Further…

The Yankees can’t get Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley in the next 4 years to force Jeter to move from SS.

JJ Hardy becomes FA in 2010 and does anyone feel that he is so far superior to Jeter that he is worth pushing Jeter to LF or DH? As of this present moment, I don’t think so. You’d be getting a marginally better defensive shortstop and a marginally better offensive player.

My point is that unless you can realistically acquire Rollins, Reyes, or Hanley (for the bat), discussing Jeter’s move to any other position should not even be happening. Cal Ripjken moved because Baltimore felt that they had a whole at 3B where Cal could fill in and Mike Bordick was an upgrade to their 3B at the time. In 3-4 years, we would only move Jeter to LF if LF or Jeter are playing so poorly, that signing JJ Hardy or trading our blue chip pitching for Hanley would be the improvement the Yankees need (at the time) to get them over the hump.

]]> By: Brian NYY http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/comment-page-4/#comment-641543 Brian NYY Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:25:53 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/?p=6126#comment-641543 rodg12: what games are you watching? Hanley Ramirez and JJ Hardy consistently botch easy plays. While Jeter's most glaring defensive issue is going left, at least he makes the plays he's supposed to make. If you're just going spit out stats of a study done by some group that doesn't unerstand the game of baseball, well I'll reserve my comments for them. But in the game of baseball and as a starting defensive player, your job is to make the plays you're supposed to make and if you make plays on top off that, that makes you a great defensive player. You can't just make a couple of highlight plays to get on sportscenter and botch the grounder right to you. I have seen both Hardy and Ramirez consistently bobble grounders where they are forced to charge the ball a bit. Again, if we all know that Jeter hasbn't been able to go left since the day he came up, I'm sure we'll deal with that for the next 5-6 years as long as we win some championships. Now, I do agree that Hanley's offense is far superior but I'll take that in my fantasy league and not on my real team. On my real team, I'd ask him to make his move to LF or CF, where he belongs. rodg12:

what games are you watching?

Hanley Ramirez and JJ Hardy consistently botch easy plays. While Jeter’s most glaring defensive issue is going left, at least he makes the plays he’s supposed to make.

If you’re just going spit out stats of a study done by some group that doesn’t unerstand the game of baseball, well I’ll reserve my comments for them.

But in the game of baseball and as a starting defensive player, your job is to make the plays you’re supposed to make and if you make plays on top off that, that makes you a great defensive player. You can’t just make a couple of highlight plays to get on sportscenter and botch the grounder right to you. I have seen both Hardy and Ramirez consistently bobble grounders where they are forced to charge the ball a bit.

Again, if we all know that Jeter hasbn’t been able to go left since the day he came up, I’m sure we’ll deal with that for the next 5-6 years as long as we win some championships.

Now, I do agree that Hanley’s offense is far superior but I’ll take that in my fantasy league and not on my real team. On my real team, I’d ask him to make his move to LF or CF, where he belongs.

]]> By: McBain http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/01/14/pinch-hitting-the-bronx-view/comment-page-4/#comment-641404 McBain Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:10:19 +0000 http://yankees.lhblogs.com/?p=6126#comment-641404 Randy l: do you even have a clue what the methodology that the fielding bible uses? it’s based on someone like you sitting in dewan’s “basement” looking at every ball put in play and judging it. you are thinking that present range systems are objective when they are based on very subjective data. -- Is it any more or less subjective than people on this board who trust their eyes over people like Dewan who are working towards finding a better way to judge defense? The methods are subjective, but they are subjective based on a standard, much moreso than the "Jeter rules" perspective. Dewan's work may not be perfect, but it is one of few metrics that are trying to judge fielding better. Soon, maybe a better way of judging will happen. Personally, I will take the work of someone who has made it their goal to improve in that area over armchair forum critics. Randy l:
do you even have a clue what the methodology that the fielding bible uses? it’s based on someone like you sitting in dewan’s “basement” looking at every ball put in play and judging it.
you are thinking that present range systems are objective when they are based on very subjective data.
–
Is it any more or less subjective than people on this board who trust their eyes over people like Dewan who are working towards finding a better way to judge defense? The methods are subjective, but they are subjective based on a standard, much moreso than the “Jeter rules” perspective.

Dewan’s work may not be perfect, but it is one of few metrics that are trying to judge fielding better. Soon, maybe a better way of judging will happen. Personally, I will take the work of someone who has made it their goal to improve in that area over armchair forum critics.

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