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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


The wrath of e-mailers is misplaced

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 15, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

First off, a salute to Ricardo Montalbán. Here’s hoping suave actor heaven is full of fine corinthian leather.

Meanwhile, here is the general tone of the e-mails the last two days:

Dear Pete:

Andy Pettitte sucks.

Signed, Insane Reader.

The populace has turned on Pettitte like a pack of angry badgers. They seem to think he should take whatever he can get from the Yankees just for the honor of putting on the pinstripes. Most think his second-half performance last season indicates he is finished.

Yes, Pettitte was 4-7, 5.35 in his last 13 starts. But Pettitte had a sore shoulder and he kept pitching because the alternative was Kei Igawa. He took the ball every five days until the Yankees were eliminated.

Pettitte also was pitching without the benefit of having had a full offseason of conditioning. He admitted that the Congressional investigation interrupted his usual routine. Sure, it was his fault for taking PEDs in the first place and working out with Roger Clemens and policeman of the year Brian McNamee. But the fact remains, he didn’t get his work in.

Beyond that, consider the stats beyond wins and loses. Pettitte was one of 33 pitchers to throw at least 200 innings last season. Pettitte is one of 21 pitchers to have thrown 400 innings in the last two seasons. That means he has stayed healthy enough to pitch, he has merited being sent back to the mound, he has saved the bullpen. Oh, and this was while pitching in the AL East.

Pettitte got more groundballs in 2008 than he did in 2007. But outs weren’t as easy to come by thanks to the defense behind him. Pettitte also struck out more batters per nine innings.

One particularly angry fellow told me there is no evidence that Pettitte is better than Alfredo Aceves. Take it easy.

To me, the issue is not so much Pettitte as it is that the Yankees still have innings to account for. If it’s not Pettitte, then who will it be?

Maybe they did find somebody after all.

————

Good photos of the new Stadium on this forum. We had a friendly meeting with the PR staff yesterday to talk about some issues. After being at so many new stadiums around the league, it’s hard to believe there will be two in New York.

Just a warning, based on the construction around the Stadium area I saw yesterday, you might want to leave for Opening Day pretty soon. It’s a mess.

————

Finally saw Frost/Nixon. If you’re not politically inclined, it’s not going to do much for you. But if you appreciate postwar history, it’s interesting.

Next up on the movie list: Defiance.

Comments

comments

 

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465 Responses to “The wrath of e-mailers is misplaced”

  1. Pick January 15th, 2009 at 7:33 am

    good stuff Pete.

    i’m tired of the Andy Bashing. the yankees are coming in under and are going to make a ton with the new stadium this year. the yankees need to bump up the offer. now im not saying andy is a 16 mil a year pitcher but the yanks need him in the clubhouse. who are sabathia and burnett going to talk to when they face a bump in the road. the beat writers and fans will kill them. Andy and Mo will talk to them on how to deal with it being pitchers themselves( yes i know they are big boys, but not everyone can handle NY)

  2. yanksrule57 January 15th, 2009 at 7:52 am

    Pettitte would be insurance against making the mistake the team made last year; going in to the season with uproven starters who have not pitched a full MLB season. As much as I like Joba, he got hurt last year, as of course did Hughes.

    I just have a gut feel this will work out and Andy will be back. Cashman does seem to learn from his mistakes.

  3. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 7:54 am

    The Yankees aren’t a charitable foundation. They are a business and player contracts are business, not charity.

    They are under no obligation to “bump up” the already highest offer Andy has at this time.

    They will have to make a decision to “bump it up” IF Pettitte gets a better offer.

    Its no different than when Bernie Williams was a FA 10 years ago. The Yankees held firm until Bernie got a better offer. When he did, they bumped it up and got a deal done.

    What everybody who believes the Yankees should just give Andy what he wants fail to realize is, his role on the team has changed. For what he wants, he simply isn’t worth it at this time of his career.

    That’s how players are evaluated by teams these days. You may not like it or agree with it. However, that’s how players are evaluated by teams. That’s why Bobby Abreu, a very good hitter, can’t get his money in this market. His weaknesses out pace his strengths, according to teams, and his market has stalled bigtime.

    Doesn’t anybody find it odd that Andy Pettitte’s name is not associated with any team at this time? No offers from anybody. One would think a guy with his percieve value (innings eating lefty) would have offers.

    Why do people think he isn’t in the conversation re: offers from other teams?

    I find it fascinating that teams are staying away from him. I don’t know if its because they all feel he will eventually go back to NY, the HGH past, or teams feel he isn’t as good as he used to be. It is surprising though that his offers haven’t come in, even in this marketplace.

    You don’t even hear rumors of offers from other teams for Andy.

    Until that changes, Andy has to make a call of whether he wants to play for the “paltry” wage of 10 million dollars, play for less somewhere else, or retire.

    Until somebody else steps up, don’t expect the Yankees to offer anymore money to Andy. They already feel their offer is 20% higher than it should be, given the current marketplace.

  4. Mr Torre January 15th, 2009 at 7:54 am

    you want the yankees to pay andy 10+mil to be around to talk to CC and AJ.im sure they want his advice on HGH use

    Andy Pettitte is the biggest phony in baseball.time for fans to stop giving him a pass

  5. pat January 15th, 2009 at 7:57 am

    People feel the need to e-mail you their emotional outbursts in addition to posting it here? Someone at LoHud with the power to do so, give Pete a raise immediately just for that.

    I hope the 2 sides can come to agreement or part amicably if better opportunity is available to either side but no bashing is necessary either way. Over the course of Andy’s Yankee career, Andy did what he was paid to do and the Yankees got what they paid for because in the end, players are paid for effort because they can’t necessarily control results.

  6. joe jr January 15th, 2009 at 8:02 am

    You have to assume at some point Andy will give in…
    Zero interest from any other club,,yanks 10 million probably way over what he would get from anyone else…so he will ‘agree’ at some point…
    will it affect his performance? i dont think so…at end of day he is still best option out there…an injury to someone is predictable…

  7. Patrick Bateman January 15th, 2009 at 8:05 am

    I think the problem with Pettitte all begins with his comments last season.

    “But, I mean, I’m not going anywhere, you know what I’m saying? The Yankees know me enough, it’s not like I’m going to hold out. I guess if I had spent all my money or whatever, it might be different. But it’s not about that, really, anymore.”

    Andy Pettitte is a phony, just like he was a phony when he accepted that 1 year deal right before the Mitchell Report was released. If there was a Mitchell Report this year, he would have signed by now. If this is what his big religious upbringing is all about, count me out.

  8. Patrick Bateman January 15th, 2009 at 8:06 am

    And Defiance was a disappointment. Zwick swung and missed like Melky on this one.

  9. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 8:13 am

    Eating innings and eating innings effectively are two separate issues.
    If Andy can do so while providing decent (and clean) results – then his signing is a good thing.
    Innings eaters aren’t very seductive if they pitch like someone such as Igawa has for us. Just more pain over more innings.
    Andy is a Yankee, a key member of our recent past success.
    But Andy could do a lot to improve his standing with Yankee fans by signing soon for the 10 mil (if that’s still on the table) or even something less. Though that being said, I am sure all the Andy-bashers will be wildly singing his praises if he starts the year at 4-0 or something anyway.

  10. Propaghandi January 15th, 2009 at 8:14 am

    Yankee fans are a fickle bunch. Many expect players to give the team the same undying loyalty that us fans give. The difference though is that we are spectating fans and they are paid players.

    Unfortunately, what the Andy bashers fail to see is that he owes no favors to the richest team in sports. The Yankees aren’t in the game for the fun of it. They don’t give us merchandise, tickets, and food at the ballpark for free, so why should Andy render his services to the Yankees for any less than he thinks he deserves?

    The problem I have is that the Yankees shed tons of payroll, went out and spent on two aces and one of the top five first basemen in MLB, yet are ignoring the slow leak at the bottom of the boat, in this case the pitching staff. Why not spend those extra few dollars to get Pettite, come out at the same payroll as last year, and be an exponentially better team?

    Those small leaks have a habit of sinking ships.

  11. BD January 15th, 2009 at 8:15 am

    I don’t think most people here are condemning Andy personally. It’s just that $10 million seems like a pretty reasonable offer in this market and it’s frustrating to hear that AP is holding out for $16 million when he said the money wouldn’t be an issue and that he wouldn’t, in fact, hold out.

  12. Patrick Bateman January 15th, 2009 at 8:19 am

    If he hadn’t made a quote saying it wasn’t about the money last year, I’d have no problem with what he’s doing.

    But to see a big faux religious freak pull a 180 on what he said 4 months ago makes you wonder if anything that comes out of his big beak is real. He’s probably lying about the 2 times he took HGH. Wouldn’t be surprised if it was 200 times.

  13. BD January 15th, 2009 at 8:19 am

    “. . . the Yankees . . . went out and spent on two aces . . . yet are ignoring the slow leak at the bottom of the boat, in this case the pitching staff.”

    Huh?

  14. Mr Torre January 15th, 2009 at 8:21 am

    if its not the money Andy what is it?….the yankees not showing you enought respect…like you clamied when you left for houston last time….only for you too leave houston for the exact same reason…tell the truth u con,its about the dollar bills $$$$$

    maybe he wants to retire.and receive a hummer.only to un-retire and go to houston…like his phony mate rodger?

    pettitte has lost all cred with me…and many people ive talked too

    if he had shoulder problems last year.what makes ya think he will be alright in 09?

  15. darkmoonfire January 15th, 2009 at 8:22 am

    People were so quick to dismiss Moose as finished before last season. And how wrong they were.

    Not that I expect Andy to win 20 games. But his era is deceptive. When he’s off, he has one bad inning — the 3 or the 4th. With better defense behind him, which he would have this year, that might not be such an issue.

    Plus, he was injured. If he’s got his routine back then he’ll be fine. He’s still one of the best options for taking the mound in the post season too.

    Frost/Nixon. Even if you are not historically inclined, then go see it for the filmmaking alone. The acting is as good as you will get. The cinematography is pretty good too.

  16. Propaghandi January 15th, 2009 at 8:24 am

    I think the problem is that if you look at Burnett and Pettite last year, their stats are virtually identical. The differences are only very very slight. The biggest difference really is their record in that Burnett was 18-10 and Pettitte was 14-14. ERA difference is a half a point.

    However if you look back to 2007 and the years before, Pettitte stands head and shoulders over Burnett’s injury plagued career.

    So if I’m Pettitte, I’m arguing that if Burnett is worth $16.5 million based on an 18-10 season, why am I not worth $16 based on a much more productive and consistent career than Burnett?

    I think Andy has a great case. The Yankees are being downright silly.

  17. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 8:25 am

    “Pettitte also was pitching without the benefit of having had a full offseason of conditioning. He admitted that the Congressional investigation interrupted his usual routine. Sure, it was his fault for taking PEDs in the first place and working out with Roger Clemens and policeman of the year Brian McNamee. But the fact remains, he didn’t get his work in.”

    And it looks good that the same kind of thing could happen again since a federal grand jury has been convened to deal with Clemens perjury charges and it is anticipated that Andy is going to be called to testify. Andy’s baseball schedule is not going to trump a federal grand jury; in addition, it will do little to help Andy’s concentration. Add to that the upcoming and totally bizarre defamation suit that Clemens has filed against Brian MacNamee, Andy might be a very busy person who once again will not be able to get in absolutely critical conditioning that is so important to a player his age who did have a sore shoulder for the entire second half of the season, or so it is reported.

    With the latest news about the federal grand jury I think we might all be hoping that Andy and the Yankees part ways.

  18. Propaghandi January 15th, 2009 at 8:26 am

    Sorry BD I should clarify. The Yankees have 3 sure things in Sabathia, Burnett, and Wang (even though Burnett is only as sure as his health which historically speaking hasn’t exactly been injury free). Beyond those 3, it’s up in the air.

    Sure we can dishonestly say Joba is the bonafide 4th, but we don’t know for sure. He’s shown he’s vulnerable to injury and his innings could be limited. And the 5th starter? Well, we saw how that went last year.

  19. Tommy January 15th, 2009 at 8:27 am

    Defiance = made for TV movie. Not worth it.

  20. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 8:30 am

    Prop
    By that logic I guess the Yanks also failed to address the need to upgrade at 1B too I guess.?.

  21. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 8:30 am

    You can put the “Andy haters” on here in a thimble and still have room for someone else.

    Most of us are discussing this as a baseball issue. Its not personal.

    Speaking for myself, I don’t hate Andy Pettitte. Far from it. Aside from the assorted, emotional 12 year olds who post here, I don’t think anybody here “hates” Andy Pettitte.

    The fact is, what the Yankees spent on Burnett, Sabathia and Teixeira have no bearing on Pettitte’s situation.

    Too often, folks take seperate incidents, lump them together, and try to make a point.

    CC Sabathia, AJ Burnett and Mark Teixeira were signed to be cornerstone players here for years. They are also all better players than Andy Pettitte is at this point in their respective careers. Andy Pettitte is looking to play for one more season. What they spend on him (or anybody else for that matter) is completely different than what you spend on guys who are going to be here for years.

    Andy’s role on the team is to be a back end of the rotation, innings eating guy. To that end, the Yankees made him the highest offer he has for that role in the marketplace. Its not like they offered him a take it or leave it 5 million dollar, one year offer. The 10 million dollar offer was excessively fair.

    This isn’t complicated. Without an equal or better offer, there is no reason the Yankees need to raise the offer to him. If he chooses not to accept it, the Yankees have no choice but to move on.

    If things don’t work out, there are other pitchers in the marketplace they can bring in to fill that role and they will bring someone else in.

    Why do you think they are this quiet right now? When they are, it means they are working on things.

    I don’t think they are going into the season with a bunch of kids fighting it out for the final spot in the rotation. I think they will bring in a veteran arm if things don’t work out with Pettitte.

    Folks also forget that Andy Pettitte was one of the worst starting pitchers in baseball from July 31 through the rest of the season.

    2-7, 6.52 ERA from July 31 through the end of the season. That’s not exactly a salary sprint in Pettitte’s favor. Nor is the reason for his tail off.

    With the Roger Clemens Grand Jury now convening, along with his defamation suit against McNamee still pending, it doesn’t seem like Andy is going to get all his work in this year again. There is no doubt he is going to have to testify in both proceedings. Meaning, more distractions. Also not something in his favor right now.

    You have to believe this saga will come to an end in the next week or two. At some point, both sides either have to make a deal or agree to move on. Spring training will be here before you know it.

  22. Betsy January 15th, 2009 at 8:30 am

    http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....ner-1.html

    I know things are going ok with Jorge, but this isn’t too promising. The Yankees are going to be royally messed up if Jorge can’t catch. As to Mo – we haven’t even thought about him, but he’s had surgery as well. He may not be ready for the season and he may not be effective – and we’ve all been assuming the best with Mo. There’s no sense assuming the worst, but we do have a couple of serious ? here.

  23. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 8:31 am

    Though I agree in principle to what you’re saying about pitching…

  24. pat January 15th, 2009 at 8:34 am

    “You have to assume at some point Andy will give in…”

    That’s assuming there is still an offer on the table for him to give in to and some are reporting that’s not the case anymore.

  25. JOJO January 15th, 2009 at 8:34 am

    What the Red Sox are doing is interesting. They are stockpiling questionable starting pitchers. But if you think about it each of the last couple years both the Yanks and Sox have had to find pitchers off the scrap heap during the season to make important starts down the stretch.

    The Yanks may appear to be in a position of strength but we are still just a couple injuries away from calling Sidney Ponson back. Andy & his representation understand this. There aren’t many quality starters out there who would accept a one year deal.

    The Yanks will regret it if they don’t sign Pettitte, trust me. Personally, if Andy is greedy and all about the money, I don’t care. This is a business, not a beer league.

  26. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 8:34 am

    Comparing Andy to Burnett isn’t in Andy’s best interests. Burnett had more strikeouts, is 5 years younger, and is a better pitcher than Andy is right now. All of his overall numbers were better, some much better, than Andy last year.

    If he is actually using Burnett as a reason to get more money (I don’t believe he is), then its easy to see why he has no other offers.

    He doesn’t have a good case. If he did, he would have offers.

  27. Dont-Forget-Where-You-Came-From-Cheese Mac January 15th, 2009 at 8:36 am

    Maybe Andy fell off after the second half because he didn’t have the benefit of juicing up? Seems pretty strange. Still a relatively young guy to all of a sudden get gassed at the end of the year. Especially after he is known as being a second half pitcher. The very year he gets busted for it.

    I think most are aggravated by his “I only want to pitch for the yankees” comments and then posturing about money, talking about phantom teams with other offers, etc.

  28. Mark (Brett is back) January 15th, 2009 at 8:36 am

    Can Andy please take that 3 year 36 million dollar deal his agents said was on the table so he can feed his family.

  29. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 8:37 am

    “The Yanks will regret it if they don’t sign Pettitte, trust me. Personally, if Andy is greedy and all about the money, I don’t care. This is a business, not a beer league.”

    With the current news about the Clemens grand jury if I’m the Yankees I take ANY offer to Andy totally off the table. This is a business, not a beer league!

  30. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 8:39 am

    Mariano is fine. He will be ready for the start of the season. He has had no setbacks and his surgery was minor.

    Posada is also on schedule. However, his surgery was more extensive and they aren’t going to rush him along at all.

    I could see them taking it real easy with Jorge in April. Especially if the weather is bad. Perhaps only catching him a few days a week until the weather warms up.

    Its definitely something the Yankees will have to monitor closely.

    All I can tell you is, Posada is at the complex everyday in Tampa (so is Jeter for that matter) putting in his work. There is no dog in him.

  31. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 8:39 am

    The Andy thing is a great debate – because there are good reasons on both sides for signing or not signing him.
    But the fact that you never, ever, have enough starting pitching is not arguable. We do need to get this addressed.
    Remember Boston last year with the glut of starting pitching and soon they were scrambling for more?

  32. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 8:42 am

    SJ
    Will miss the likes of Jete and Jorge, et al. when they finally do retire. No dog in them is right, they have tried to do it the right way for more than a decade. The kind of guys you are glad to have as Yankees and to root for.

  33. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 8:43 am

    I just don’t want the Yankees to be “penny-wise and pound-foolish.” Perhaps a logical review of Andy Pettitte’s career going backward and prospects going forward, his projected spot in the rotation, blah, blah, blah, all pointed to an $8 million evaluation and then a “let’s-throw-him-$2 million-’cause-we-like-him” offer of $10 million. On it’s face it does seem like a more than fair offer, and in this economy, and in this baseball free agent market, it sure seems reasonable.

    But it’s Andy Pettitte. No, I don’t think the Yankees should up the offer to $16 million. But I think they can do something better and I think they can get creative in how they do it so that they can still pull off coming in at whatever budget they set for themselves.

    In this particular situation, I don’t see how being the #4 pitcher should devalue Pettitte as much as the Yankees see. I do understand the business end of it; I do understand that if there were other, better offers, surely Andy would have, if not taken one, at least made it public so the Yankees could counter-offer, and without another bid, the Yankees would be out-bidding themselves. But if you go the extra couple of million for an relative unknown (any free agent not currently on the team), why can’t you go the extra couple of million for a “known?” It is not without precedent that pitchers who succeed elsewhere melt under the bright Yankee Stadium lights.

    Andy’s not an “innings eater” in the vein of Livan Hernandez. It’s a pretty good bet he’s going to give you quality innings, last season notwithstanding. But for a few miscues by his defense, one or two bad innings here or there, he’d easily have ended the season with 16 or 17 wins, 2 or 3 games over .500. If the pitching staff wasn’t so decimated, perhaps he gets to miss a turn or two and let his shoulder stop barking so that he could have been more effective down the stretch. We’ll never know.

    I understand the disappointment of his saying money wouldn’t be an issue, and now it is. Maybe for Andy it wasn’t and isn’t. But Andy, as good a pitcher as he is, is not really a leader type. I suspect once he got home, and others got in his ear, that’s when the tune changed.

    I’m still holding out hope that he’s the guy. But if the Yankees are playing hardball, and won’t budge, it’ll be somebody else. No one else is a surer bet that Pettitte, though, and I think the Yankees would be wise to give in just a bit here.

  34. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 8:43 am

    *are you all getting that Andy’s training, conditioning, and concentration is once again going to be interrupted since he will have to testify before a federal grand jury as well as testify in the defamation suit Clemens has against MacNamee when that hits court?????*

    Or doesn’t that matter to those who are in the Just Say Andy camp?

    And also, does the Yankee organization and team need and deserve that kind of disruption and all of the press that will automatically follow it? There will be enough that happens in the course of a season without looking for trouble!

  35. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 8:47 am

    By the way, although I was extremely ambivalent on Pettitte and would have preferred that he didn’t come back, before this grand jury stuff I did say that as a number 5 starter for a “reasonable amount” I could see bringing him back.

    With the current grand jury information I wouldn’t touch him with a ten-foot pole and think the Yankees deserve what they (won’t) get if they do end up signing him now.

  36. Mr Torre January 15th, 2009 at 8:48 am

    the whole clemens / pettitte fiasco is a distraction the yankees shoudnt want any part of

    time to move on…he turned down 10mil.cashman aint offering more,andy wont be accepting less.springtraining is here in a matter of weeks

    still some bargains there.or trade up

  37. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 8:52 am

    Doreen,

    Once emotions get into negotiations, things can go sour quickly. Its clear from everything I have heard about this, Andy is really ticked off at the Yankees and his emotions are definitely into this bigtime. Adding to the fact that, at least to date, he has no competing offers to move the Yankees off their stance, and its got to be real frustrating for him right now.

    I can certainly understand that. Hopefully, as time goes by, things can work out.

    That said, the Yankees aren’t going to wait forever for him. They realize they need another arm. It doesn’t have to be an all star and its not going to be Jason Johnson.

    You always hope for a positive resolution in things like this. However, it doesn’t always have a happy ending.

    If I was Andy, I’d find a way to work things out with the Yankees. Realize they took one on the chin for you last year, do the deal, pitch your brains out, then bang them for money in 2010.

    No question re: Jeter and Posada. There is so much more that goes into being a great player than stats. Makeup (baseball’s word for character) is very important and both Jeter and Posada’s makeup are off the charts.

    They are the heartbeat of the team. I really believe that if Posada didn’t get hurt, this team wouldn’t have played 60% of its season last year with its heads up their collective butts. Jorge would have put some guys (namely Cano) up against the wall.

    They really missed his vocal leadership last year.

  38. joe jr January 15th, 2009 at 8:54 am

    Betsy
    January 15th, 2009 at 8:30 am
    http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....ner-1.html

    “I know things are going ok with Jorge, but this isn’t too promising. The Yankees are going to be royally messed up if Jorge can’t catch. As to Mo – we haven’t even thought about him, but he’s had surgery as well. He may not be ready for the season and he may not be effective – and we’ve all been assuming the best with Mo. There’s no sense assuming the worst, but we do have a couple of serious ? here.”
    i dont think i can take molinas .220 avg for another season!!…

  39. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 8:54 am

    Wasn’t Barry Bonds supposed to go before a Grand Jury last season? Wasn’t that one (out of about a thousand) reasons no one even glanced in his direction in the post-season? And am I wrong or did that not happen?

    It’s not a guarantee that the Clemens thing will happen in a timely manner. I’ve even heard rumors that George Bush will pardon him. (Not that I think this is fair or good, just that it’s a possibility.) (HA! Clemens could get “clemency” – sorry.)

  40. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 8:56 am

    Quick! Patent that headline Doreen!

  41. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 8:57 am

    How much loot did Micheal Buffer make just for saying “let’s get ready to rumble?”

  42. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 8:58 am

    SJ44 -

    I know, I know. :(

    I’m at the point now where I believe they’re going to move on without him, even though I’m still hoping for different.

    Betsy -

    I saw your post from last night referency Barry Larkin. Wasn’t he fantastic! I found myself thinking – where has this guy been? What a breath of fresh air. He makes Hot Stove worth watching, IMO.

  43. Patrick Bateman January 15th, 2009 at 8:58 am

    Just because Cashman says that Posada is “right on schedule” doesn’t mean jack.

    Molina is there, and so is Cash. In an ideal world, it would be great if Posada was able to resume catching 4 days a week like he used to. But when you’re 37 years old and have been a catcher your whole career, the odds are stacked against you in recovering from a major surgery that quickly.

    I’m sure the Teixeira signing had a lot to do with the question marks in Matsui and Posada after Giambi and Abreu departed.

  44. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 8:58 am

    **uh, REFERENCING, not referency. Sorry.

  45. ANSKY January 15th, 2009 at 9:02 am

    “Maybe they did find somebody after all.”

    Maybe it’s an indication that he’s motivated, being in Tampa several weeks before spring training … but since when did Josh Beckett become available?

    (that’s not going to be funny unless you clicked on Pete’s link)

  46. Tom January 15th, 2009 at 9:06 am

    Ansky, good one.

  47. jennifer January 15th, 2009 at 9:08 am

    Patrick Bateman January 15th, 2009 at 8:05 am

    I think the problem with Pettitte all begins with his comments last season.

    “But, I mean, I’m not going anywhere, you know what I’m saying? The Yankees know me enough, it’s not like I’m going to hold out. I guess if I had spent all my money or whatever, it might be different. But it’s not about that, really, anymore.”

    Andy Pettitte is a phony, just like he was a phony when he accepted that 1 year deal right before the Mitchell Report was released. If there was a Mitchell Report this year, he would have signed by now. If this is what his big religious upbringing is all about, count me out.

    ———————-

    Agreed that is my biggest issue with him as well.

  48. Laura January 15th, 2009 at 9:10 am

    “You don’t even hear rumors of offers from other teams for Andy.”

    That’s probably because he announced to the world very early on that he wanted to play for the Yankees and nobody else.

  49. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 9:11 am

    Doreen – this is a federal grand jury in Washington DC to deal with a perjury charge against a Congressional Committee. They aren’t going away, and as ellen already pointed out in a pretty funny way, you don’t quash a subpoena from a federal grand jury.

    There are a million reasons nobody is looking at Bonds – possible prison time is one, a public relations nightware is just another.

    The grand jury in DC IS being convened. Andy WILL be called. If an indictment is handed down (only an idiot could think it wouldn’t be since Clemens perjured himself on the record) a trial WILL be held. Clemens HAS sued MacNamee for defamation. The defense WILL call Andy in that trial. All of this will get under away in the very near future and there will be no end date.

    Do you want that Andy back? Do the Yankees take a risk that Andy, whose concentration is extremely fragile when he has stuff going on, will give them their moneys worth?

  50. Propaghandi January 15th, 2009 at 9:11 am

    Past 6 years

    AJ Burnett:

    2003 FLA 0-2, 4 games, 23.0 IP, 18 hits, 13 runs, 12 ER, 2 ER, 18 BB, 21 SO, 4.70 ERA, 89 ERA+, 1.565 WHIP

    2004 FLA 7-6, 20 games, 120.0 IP, 102 hits, 50 runs, 49 ER, 9 HR, 38 BB, 113 SO, 3.68 ERA, 112 ERA+, 1.167 WHIP

    2005 FLA 12-12, 32 games, 209.0 IP, 184 hits, 97 runs, 80 ER, 12 HR, 79 BB, 198 SO, 3.44 ERA, 115 ERA+, 1.258 WHIP

    2006 TOR 10-8, 21 games, 135.7 IP, 138 hits, 67 runs, 60 ER, 14 HR, 39 BB, 118 SO, 3.98 ERA, 115 ERA+, 1.305 WHIP

    2007 TOR 10-8, 25 games, 165.7 IP, 131 hits, 74 runs, 69 ER, 23 HR, 66 BB, 176 SO, 3.75 ERA, 119 ERA+, 1.189 WHIP

    2008 TOR 18-10, 35 games, 221.3 IP, 211 hits, 109 runs, 100 ER, 19 HR, 86 BB, 231 SO, 4.07 ERA, 105 ERA+, 1.342 WHIP

    Andy Pettitte:

    2003 NYY 21-8, 33 games, 208.3 IP, 227 hits, 109 runs, 93 ER, 21 HR, 50 BB, 180 SO, 4.02 ERA, 109 ERA+, 1.330 WHIP

    2004 HOU 6-4, 15 games, 83.0 IP, 71 hits, 37 runs, 36 ER, 8 HR, 31 BB, 79 SO, 3.90 ERA, 112 ERA+, 1.229 WHIP

    2005 HOU 17-9, 33 games, 222.3 IP, 188 hits, 66 runs, 59 ER, 17 HR, 41 BB, 171 SO, 2.39 ERA, 177 ERA+, 1.030 WHIP

    2006 HOU 14-13, 36 games, 214.3 IP, 238 hits, 114 runs, 100 ER, 27 HR, 70 BB, 178 SO, 4.20 ERA, 106 ERA+, 1.437 WHIP

    2007 NYY 15-9, 36 games, 215.3 IP, 238 hits, 106 runs, 97 ER, 16 HR, 69 BB, 141 SO, 4.05 ERA, 110 ERA+, 1.426 WHIP

    All I’m saying is that comparing careers, if Burnett is worth $16.5m, Pettite should be in the ballpark.

  51. wallypip January 15th, 2009 at 9:13 am

    Good job, Pete. I’ll keep this short.

    Did you know that that the Yankees only scored 3.6 runs per game started by Pettitte in the second half and that Pettitte’s second half BABIP was .361? I’m not making excuses for our boy because he didn’t pitch well for about 6 weeks, but if the Yankees would have hit the ball or caught the ball in the second half Pettitte would likely have won over 17 games. He was not nearly as bad as people are making out.

    BTW, we need to stop worrying about the money. Pettitte isn’t seeking other offers and there isn’t a better FA option available. There’s no reason for either side to budge yet. There’s no bad guys here, just business people.

  52. Propaghandi January 15th, 2009 at 9:14 am

    Forgot Pettitte’s 2008:

    2008 NYY 14-14, 33 games, 204.0 IP, 233 hits, 112 runs, 103 ER, 19 HR, 55 BB, 158 SO, 4.54 ERA, 98 ERA+, 1.412 WHIP

  53. jennifer January 15th, 2009 at 9:14 am

    Pettitte also was pitching without the benefit of having had a full offseason of conditioning. He admitted that the Congressional investigation interrupted his usual routine. Sure, it was his fault for taking PEDs in the first place and working out with Roger Clemens and policeman of the year Brian McNamee. But the fact remains, he didn’t get his work in.
    ————-

    Pete that isn’t an excuse. He signed a contract to preform up to a certain standard, and he didn’t because he was caught up in the whole Clemens thing. That isn’t the Yankees problem. That was Andy’s problem. And he should have made sure that he still got his work in.

  54. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 9:17 am

    Prop
    True, if comparing careers only. But that is not what it’s about. Andy is near the end of his career, historically not as productive as one’s prime is. Burnett is still young. Andy also has those other factors surrounding him that Trisha and some others have mentioned.
    You wouldn’t pay Gary Sheffield now what you might have paid him in ’02, or what you might pay to Hanley Ramirez or some other younger but comparable player.

  55. TKinDC January 15th, 2009 at 9:18 am

    What happened to that 3 year deal for Andy P that the Hendricks brothers were leaking to the press? Please don’t tell me that it was not true? ;)

  56. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 9:19 am

    I think he might have been referring to the possible three years in San Quentin with Roger.

  57. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 9:19 am

    Trisha -

    No doubt, you’re right about it going forward. But are you saying there couldn’t be a delay? Congress does have other pressing business to attend to. Just wondering, not being argumentative.

    I did say there were thousands of reasons Bonds wasn’t given a look, but, okay, I could be swayed to “millions.” :)

  58. bru January 15th, 2009 at 9:21 am

    i don’t comment as much, i like too read the comments & comment once in a while because it is a vicious circle that never ends.no matter what we all say there are people who will try to justify anything & when all is said & done anything & everything makes sense because people talk a good game.

    this pettitte situation is a perfect example.it is not what we think pettitte is worth it is what the yankees think he is worth & i believe they are right.

    pettitte has no offers.why would the yankees pay him more than 10 million when he has no other offers?

    teams do not pay pitchers 16 million because they pitch 200 innings every year.

    if his numbers in 08 were as good as burnett’s & lowe’s maybe he get’s 16 million but they weren’t even close.

    if the yankees wan’t to i can see overpaying him at 12 million but 16 million shouldn’t happen.he isn’t worth anything close to that.

    take a look around at all the pitchers in the game & what they get paid & you will see why pettitte isn’t worth 16 million.

  59. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 9:21 am

    “All I’m saying is that comparing careers, if Burnett is worth $16.5m, Pettite should be in the ballpark.”

    prop, dealing only with your stats (Andy’s for 2008 didn’t make it into the post), there are two things that really jump out at me: three of Andy’s year are NL years and really not comparable to a pitcher who spent all of his time in the AL East, one of the toughest leagues in the majors; and the other is that Burnett just turned 32. Pettitte is going on 37.

  60. SteveB January 15th, 2009 at 9:22 am

    (1) Get Andy for a 1 year deal, even if it costs an extra mill or two. He would be our #4 pitcher. Getting 200 innings from 1 pitcher would have a positive ripple effect in the relief staff, which has a chance to be the best in baseball in 2009. It takes the pressure off untested young starting pitchers. It allows Hughes, whom I love, to develop NORMALLY with a full season in Scranton– where BTW, his innings will be limited like Joba’s. It allows us to use Aceves or Coke as the pickup starter for Joba, who will have his innings limited AGAIN in 2009, and the one who isn’t used will strengthen the bullpen. And if Andy gets it together, which I think he will, imagine a postseason starting 4 of CC, AJ, Wang, Pettite, with Joba/Mo available at the end of the game. We could win it all in 2009 with that arrangement. So what if he wants a little bit more? We are the New York Yankees….. aren’t we? It won’t ruin the payroll and if he pitches decently none of you complaining right now will mind one little bit.

    (2) I love the new pictures of YS. BUT what I never see is the view from those upper level seats where most of us poor folk will be sitting. I appreciate most of what Trost has done, but I have been extremely critical of how far from the field those top two levels are compared to the old place. I still say YS should NOT have been designed by HOK, that someone fresh should have done it, and found a way to move those decks closer, even if it cost a small portion of the view of the field. The new place was designed with more bells & whistles than anywhere else, but I am afraid that us baseball purists who go to a ballpark TO WATCH A BASEBALL GAME, may be a bit disappointed.

    Meanwhile one more month to go for spring training. This will be my 34th season, and it never gets old.

  61. ANSKY January 15th, 2009 at 9:24 am

    You read a lot of negatives on Pettitte here. A lot.
    A lot of harping on select details, conjuring assumptions about them and not seeing the bigger picture. Pete’s right to a great degree about people with Pettitte hate (or call it what you will).

    Maybe a way to describe them is ‘harsh critics of Pettitte’. Whatever you want to call them, they’ve been coming out of the woodwork like cockroaches.

  62. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 9:24 am

    Trisha -

    Burnett was with the Florida Marlins (NL East) for 7 seasons before going to Toronto.

  63. Patrick Bateman January 15th, 2009 at 9:24 am

    What Pettitte did last year was not honest.

    He declined his player option, then sat back and didn’t do anything. The Yankees told him the offer to come back for 2008 would always be on the table for him. Then right before the Mitchell Report hit, he and his dirty Texan agent brothers got together and probably said “if you don’t take the deal before the report comes out, they’ll pull it back or you won’t get as much”. So what does Pettitte do? Signs his contract a WEEK before the report comes out.

    This guy isn’t some saint. He doesn’t care about the Yankees, the fans, or anything other than himself. Which is exactly why he was so fast to rat out Clemens as well. You can make fun of Alex Rodriguez all you want Peter- with his hair, strippers, Ed Hardy shirts, and Madonna, but at least you know exactly where he stands. Pettitte is the worst kind of person, a chameleon. You think he’s one thing, but he’s something completely different.

  64. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 9:25 am

    Steve B.
    You might need to go to Google Earth to get a view of what the stadium from our seats will be like.

  65. Propaghandi January 15th, 2009 at 9:25 am

    Brother Pitt – But if we go by age, Mussina is 4 years older than Pettite and just won 20 games. So while age can and should be a factor, it’s not the end-all-be-all of a pitcher’s worth.

    My argument is that the Yankees should be offering Pettitte at least $12 mil.

  66. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 9:25 am

    Doreen, the reason there won’t be a delay in this one is because one a grand jury is convened, testimony starts immediately. And this will be all about the court system and not at all about Congress (meaning that it has to do with lying to Congress but the judiciary takes over so the workings of Congress aren’t affected.) So Andy will definitely be part of the circus at least in the very near future – and then when things spin out after that.

    I just think this makes him a huge risk.

  67. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 9:26 am

    one = once

  68. SteveB January 15th, 2009 at 9:27 am

    Holey Moley, make that my 44th season. Sorry, I haven’t had my cup o’ Joe yet. I better get it RIGHT NOW!

  69. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 9:28 am

    Doreen – OOPS!

    Okay then I am willing to compare NL years to NL years. You’re right. I stand corrected.

    I will stay with my second point, though, on age.

  70. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 9:28 am

    Andy Pettitte is nowhere near the “ballpark” of AJ Burnett right now. If he was, he would get offers.

    Comparing the last 5 years is not how players, who are 5 years apart in age, are evaluated.

    Fact is, regardless of what he said last year, his agents have shopped him all winter. That’s what agents do. Its their job.

    To that end, he has nothing approaching an offer, let alone the offer he has/had from the Yankees.

    I know some on here can’t believe that fact and won’t believe it but, its a fact.

    If Andy had another offer on the table, especially if that offer was greater than the one from the Yankees, that offer would be leaked in a NY minute to the NY media to try and move the Yankees off their stance.

    Why is it that the supposed 3/36 offer is no longer around? Its because it didn’t exist.

    How do you think AJ Burnett got the extra 2.5 million to get his deal done with the Yankees? Once the Yankees learned about the Braves offering him 5/80 (through leaks by Burnett’s agents), they knew what it would take to get the deal done.

    That’s how the game works in these matters.

  71. SteveB January 15th, 2009 at 9:29 am

    Make that my 44th season. I obviously can’t count!

  72. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 9:29 am

    Trisha -

    Got it.

  73. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 9:30 am

    Fair enough Prop.
    The great thing is that no one knows what would have been the right move until after the season. The Andy debate has been one of the few on here where both sides have cred.
    There are a lot of 20-20 hindsite guys who are quick to say after the fact that this guy was such a bad signing or that we shouldn’t have let that guy go etc. If it were that easy it wouldn’t be much of a sport.
    FWIW, I do think the Yanks will eventually sign him (for how much I don’t know), and have always had that feeling.

  74. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 9:32 am

    “Why is it that the supposed 3/36 offer is no longer around? Its because it didn’t exist.”

    And SJ I can’t believe any team in their right mind would now even consider tendering an offer to Pettitte with the grand jury stuff on the horizon. To me that would be automatic money down the rat hole.

  75. Tex's New Best Friend January 15th, 2009 at 9:33 am

    No one believed the 3/36, especially since Andy has been going year to year since he came back to the yankees. it made him look foolish for his agents to try to trick the yankees into believing that.

  76. jennifer January 15th, 2009 at 9:34 am

    I don’t know why anyone thinks it will ‘only’ take a million or two at this point to sign Andy. According to the Newsday article he thought he was worth 16, and his second half wasn’t as ‘bad’ as people thought.

  77. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 9:34 am

    Why should the Yankees offer him 12 million? Because he’s Andy Pettitte? That’s a name. That’s not production.

    He’s the guy that was awful the last two months of the season. For that, the Yankees need to bid against themselves?

    He doesn’t have any offers of 10 million. Why do the Yankees have to bid against themselves in this situation?

    Don’t compare it to Sabathia. CC was signed to be the ace and a cornerstone guy on this team. He is also a more productive player than Andy at this stage of his career.

    Same for AJ Burnett.

    Until Andy has another offer, they aren’t going to raise the bid. If he retires, then he wasn’t serious about playing this year, IMO. I don’t care how much money someone has, nobody leaves 10 million on the table. Not in these times.

  78. William Buckner January 15th, 2009 at 9:34 am

    Propaghandi,
    Why should the Yankees offer more? No one else has offered dollar one, let alone $10 million.

    I see it two ways; 1. that two million could be spend to improve the bench. It’s the exact amount the Mets just paid for Cora. 2. If I asked my employer for 20% more then they are paying me now, they’d laugh, especially if my last year of productivity was on the decline.

    Yankees have set his value. It’s not in their interest to bid against themselves, especially when $10 million can purchase an alternative.

  79. Propaghandi January 15th, 2009 at 9:34 am

    Very true Brother Pitt.

    I just want the Yankees to err on the side of caution. I’d rather sign Pettite and him have a 12-12 season than not sign him and see him go 17-8 with someone else. It just seems folly for our team, this Yankees team, to appear to be worrying about nickels and dimes, especially when we dropped so much payroll, have a lower payroll than last year, and have seen the types of revenue numbers for the new stadium that are being tossed around.

    Plus, it would be nice to have a second lefty in the rotation.

  80. wallypip January 15th, 2009 at 9:35 am

    If you adjust for ballpark and leagues, Pettitte and Derek Lowe are very comparable. You need to add about .60 to lowes ERA to adjust from NL West to AL East. I’d give the edge to Lowe because he finished last season so strong, but if Lowe gets 4 years $60M, Pettitte’s agents are smart to hold out.

  81. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 9:35 am

    I find it mildly interesting that on the MLB Hot Stove, when they discuss the free agents who are still available, Pettitte’s name has not come up – at least not when I’ve watched. Are other teams just assuming the Yankees and Pettitte will come to terms, or do they not want him at all? He still has value, even if the exact $ amount of that value is in question.

    I mean, they don’t even say, “Pettitte could be a good fit on team X if he doesn’t come to terms with NY.” It’s interesting.

  82. Tseng January 15th, 2009 at 9:40 am

    Hmmm, I bet if the Yanks increased the offer to Andy they’d be bashed for bidding against themselves.

  83. jennifer January 15th, 2009 at 9:40 am

    Why even risk giving him a contract. He now has the investigation on Roger looming over his head. What happens if/when the trial is he will miss more time. Than what kind of a bind does it put the Yankees in?

  84. RayVTNC January 15th, 2009 at 9:40 am

    I don’t believe NY Yankee fans are fickle or even down on players at all. (Look at Philly Fans for that!) I believe the Yankee fans are down on being snookered or taken advantage of!

    It wasn’t the injuries of Pavano that irked everyone, it was his attitude or a lack of Yankee Pride!

    Giambi was embraced because he stood up like a man and said I’m sorry! Then he busted his butt to win NY over again.

    Andy spurned us leaving for Houston! He took Roger out of retirement after a Yankee farewell. Then he somewhat remorsefully came back. But then he said he only wanted to play for NYY and then he renigged on that publically. Sure Andy pitched great for ½ a season until he got hurt. He also took the ball the second half with an injured shoulder as a team player. Yankee fans respect that. But the worm turned when he said $16M take it or leave it and even went seeking other teams to undergird his stance. His we owe him stance pits him against our forgiveness aptitude. He loses, because we all know that he doesn’t get $10M on the free market. He is a $6M to $8M pitcher at this stage. $10M was generous! His stance is like getting a generous gift at Christmas, and asking is this all there is! I don’t even like it!

    Yankee fans are very forgiving! They want too! It is their nature! Boston & Philly fans are not forgiving at all! That is what makes Yankee fans so special! That is why pundits like ESPN and others so trying, because they don’t understand that when you are the greatest organization that you don’t have to put others down to succeed, you have to rise to the top. It is called Yankee Pride! Jeter, Posada, Mo, Bernie, O’Neil, Torre, etc get it! Some may take a while to understand it. Others never will. I hope Pettite realizes what he is spurning grows up and comes home. Otherwise, have a wonderful life!

  85. jennifer January 15th, 2009 at 9:43 am

    Oh and Wallace Matthews is hysterical. Talking about how the Yankees and Pettitte can’t come to terms because the Yankees won’t increase their offer. Saying the Mets should swoop in and get him. This is the same jerk who would be ripping the Yankees for bidding against themselves.

  86. Pel January 15th, 2009 at 9:43 am

    Maybe *they did find somebody after all.*

    http://www.breitbart.com/artic....._article=1

    ================

    Pete, didn’t they outlaw the $hit ball?

  87. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 9:44 am

    I think the Grand Jury stuff is going to hurt Andy’s chances of getting offers from other teams. Teams really want to distance themselves from the PED days and, fair or not, Andy is one of the faces of it.

    Unlike Giambi, who not only rehabbed his image, but also went back to a “friendly home” (for 17 million dollars less than he made a year ago), Andy’s “friendly home” is Houston.

    The Astros have no interest in him. Houston is also cutting its ties with Clemens.

    Its just another thing that Andy has going against him in his quest for more money.

    That’s why I think its in his best interests to take the Yankee offer and end his career in NY.

    Now, is it in the Yankees best interests to sign him now with all of this stuff swirling around? That’s a fair question to ask.

    I think the Yankees would sign him and stand behind him at the right price. I also think they would like to have a season without this kind of distraction. This stuff just complicates matters.

    Its why I will never understand why he didn’t take the money when Cashman laid out the teams position in that Houston meeting. I thought it was the wrong play by him then and with everything going on with the Clemens Grand Jury, it really looks like the wrong play now.

  88. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 9:45 am

    Can we all just agree now that no matter what happens, if Pettite ends up signing that all of us will boo every second he is on the mound at Yankee Stadium, I mean last year he proved he was a cheat, now he is proving he is greedy. Is there anything worse that a greedy, lying, cheat. Can we make up some chants? HGH? “10 million dollars clap clap clap clap clap”

  89. YankeeRay January 15th, 2009 at 9:48 am

    The excuse of not getting a full off season program in is inexcusable.
    He had a guaranteed 16mm coming to him in our last season in Yankee stadium in a season where we thought we could win. It was his responsibility to come to camp ready to earn his pay and he obviously didn’t.
    He let the outside interference get in his way and then on top of it he bacame part of that outside interference.
    I like Andy and have always liked Andy but I was not happy with the way he left the first time and I’m getting annoyed with where we are right now.
    I have advocated that maybe 12mm would get it done but at this point I think we should put a hard date on the offer thats there if it’s still there. We absolutely need another starter to support the 4th spot and our plans to bring along our young pitchers slowly.
    I would give him another week at most and then move on.
    We need to start thinking about taking our chances with a sheets at a low number or even stepping up on Ollie.
    I can’t believe I’m going to say this but if signing Ollie means no Manny then lets move on with our pitching plan.
    I can’t believe I just said that. lol

  90. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 9:49 am

    I’m sick and tired of the Yankees always having to overpay. Why is 10 million too small. We’re paying a 5th starter 10 million???? There are a handful of aces taht make 10 million and less. Why doesn’t Andy compare himself to that?

  91. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 9:51 am

    “Andy’s not an “innings eater” in the vein of Livan Hernandez. It’s a pretty good bet he’s going to give you quality innings, last season notwithstanding.”

    as the resident advocate of pitchers being able to go deep into games whether they have their good stuff or not, i’d say pettitte qualifies as an innings eater.

    people who haven’t been behind the scenes have no idea how important having a few pitchers who have rubber arms. what isn’t measured stat wise is what would happen when another pitcher has to pitch more innings than he should. when this happens you can see an overworked bullpen member pitch overworked innings at 9.00 era or above until that pitcher gets a break. a 3.00 era can balloon to 4.50 with a few innings pitching when they shouldn’t.

    last year i took a lot of heat early in the season for saying livan hernandez was important to the twin’s success. it became comical how he, with a 5.5 era with the twins, won 10 games and lost 9 for the twins. what wasn’t measured was the bullpen guy/s who would have had those run an inning outings had livan not picked up those innings at a 5.5 rate.

    one of the problems with present stats is that they don’t measure what is prevented from happening. livan prevented a twins reliever or relievers from getting hammered because that pitcher was overworked. there is no doubt that this happened, but how is this effect to be measured?

    one could be a BP true believer advocate of statistical analysis and take the position that if it’s not measured it’s not real, or one could take the position that the twins did that this effect is real and win games with using livan hernandez as they did.

    this is one case where old school knowledge beats new school stat based knowledge. if cashman would have had a pitcher like livan instead of hughes and kennedy ( and who had a similar record to livan), the yankees would have won 7-10 games more and would have made the playoffs.

    the yankees are in the same position again, has cashman learned that he needs innings and a rubber arm from someone? or is he only a stat based gm who does not understand the synergenic value of an innings eater and how they prevent era blowups in the bullpen.

    if not pettitte , the yankees need someone who does the same thing. it absolutely can’t be hughes or any other pitcher who can’t go deep into games.

  92. jennifer January 15th, 2009 at 9:53 am

    If Andy Pettitte walks on the mound in Yankee Stadium wearing a Yankee uniform no one will boo him or chant. Only idiots would boo a player wearing the Yankee uniform.

  93. BroNeill January 15th, 2009 at 9:53 am

    Let’s not forget that Moose was finished after 2007, and went on to win 20 games last year for us.

  94. YankeeRay January 15th, 2009 at 9:55 am

    Doreen
    January 15th, 2009 at 9:35 am
    I find it mildly interesting that on the MLB Hot Stove, when they discuss the free agents who are still available, Pettitte’s name has not come up – at least not when I’ve watched. Are other teams just assuming the Yankees and Pettitte will come to terms, or do they not want him at all? He still has value, even if the exact $ amount of that value is in question.

    I mean, they don’t even say, “Pettitte could be a good fit on team X if he doesn’t come to terms with NY.” It’s interesting.

    —–

    Doreen, I think it’s the fact that other teams are not interested above 10mm and they figure if we can’t get him for that then why bother even talking about it.
    I think Hot Stove understands that and when the others sign then they may bring it up in passing.
    At this point it’s a non story outside of yankee world.

  95. jennifer January 15th, 2009 at 9:57 am

    And lets not forget Mike knew when to walk away. He had elbow issues at the end of the season, it is a fact. Yet I didn’t hear him say it to anyone! That is likely one of the main reasons he isn’t returning this season, he doesn’t think his body will hold up over the course of 162.

  96. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 10:01 am

    randy l -

    Yes, Pettitte is an innings eater. I was saying he could possibly be counted on for more quality innings than Livan. That’s what I meant by not in the same vein as Livan.

    I agree the Yankees need an innings eater.

  97. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 10:01 am

    pete,

    no mention of the dollars involved? just a whiney plea for them to bring andy back? what gives?

  98. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 10:01 am

    WOWW. Albert Pujols has to be the most underrated player in baseball, even though he won mvp. I was just looking at his 2008 stats. 357 average and 462 obp, walked twice as much as he struck out. Man has there ever been as much of a disparity between al and nl mvps? Albert Pujols in the nl and a chipmunk in the al

  99. BroNeill January 15th, 2009 at 10:02 am

    I give Andy credit for coming clean, but he’s still very close to the steroid mess, and could still be called in to testify against Clemens. Plus, he hasn’t had that bounce back year after admitting to the use of PED’s. Giambi was in a similar boat, but bounced back in 2005, and won comeback player. Andy tanked last year, and some teams might not want to go there when there are any options available. Especially if he’s looking for Derek Lowe money.

  100. Scott47 January 15th, 2009 at 10:03 am

    Patrick,

    Andy never claimed to be a saint. So lets take his personality out of the equation. Teams sign players all the time that aren’t good people. See: Terrell Owens, Pacman Jones, Milton Bradley, Barry Bonds, etc, etc, etc. If a guy can play, he will get paid. If you are looking at AP as an example of religion, you are twisted in your religion. Since this isn’t a religious debate, talk about AP and the Yanks in terms of 1) it’s a business and 2) it’s a game.

    Secondly if you want people to take your seriously on this blog, ensure your facts are straight. Posada has not been a catcher his whole career, he started as an infielder, and even though he is old for a player, he is relatively young in terms of innings caught as a catcher.

    As for AP, I am on the fence, I can see the benefit of signing him to a one year deal, and I can see leaving him on the sidelines. In the end, it will be a business decision for the Yanks and for AP.

    All sports are businesses, just look at the current situation of LT with the Chargers. Their GM has indicated they may cut him, or trade him. I am sure their are fans in SD howling this morning b/c of that, especially since just a year ago he was the heir apparent to Walter Payton, Jim Brown and Barry Sanders roled up in one. Now the business parameters have changed for the Chargers and for LT. Just like AP and the Yanks,

  101. pat January 15th, 2009 at 10:04 am

    Doreen

    I think teams do think he’s only interested in playing for the Yankees based on what he’s said in the past.

    Joe Torre probably didn’t help his case when it was reported that he spoke with Andy after word got out that the Hendricks had spoken with the Dodgers and he pretty much said Andy wants to pitch in NY.

    If the Dodgers/Torre aren’t biting and Andy has said he only wants to pitch in NY or retire, why would other teams waste their time.

    Funny thing is Andy has said nothing publicly yet this off season but everyone thinks they know exactly what he’s thinking now.

  102. Tex's New Best Friend January 15th, 2009 at 10:05 am

    If Andy Pettitte walks on the mound in Yankee Stadium wearing a Yankee uniform no one will boo him or chant. Only idiots would boo a player wearing the Yankee uniform.

    Tell this to everyone who boos A-Rod everytime he doesnt hit a homerun.

  103. m January 15th, 2009 at 10:07 am

    Wow. There are a lot of angry Yankee fans. Who cares if Andy’s a bible-thumping phony? Is he a good guy? More importantly-can he help us? If the answer is yes and if he’s the best option, then get it done.

    Anyone else hoping that Freddie Garcia does not choose the Yankees? Besides the fact that he’s declined significantly, his signing will close the door for Andy’s return.

  104. BroNeill January 15th, 2009 at 10:10 am

    Four Yankees who should never get bood are Andy, Jeter, Mo, and Jorge. The fans are over the top with Arod sometimes, but he is still subject to boos.

  105. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    New conversation topic. Will Albert Pujols shatter all of A-rod’s records?

  106. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 10:13 am

    You know, I was so hoping it wouldn’t be about Pettitte today. Sigh. :)

    But one cannot discuss a guest post that is cute but non-substantive. One can appreciate it, like it or dislike it, but not really discuss it.

    I don’t know enough about Freddie Garcia. Looking at his stats, it surely doesn’t seem like a great idea. Was he injured?

  107. Oy January 15th, 2009 at 10:14 am

    “his (garcia’s) signing will close the door for Andy’s return.”

    … a little early in the day for hallucinogenic drugs isnt it?

  108. Tex's New Best Friend January 15th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    We should sign Pujols to play Left Field when he becomes a free agent.

  109. Tom January 15th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Albert Pujols may shatter A-Rods records. Don’t forget that at one time it was supossed to be A-Rod shattering all of Griffey Jrs. records.

  110. Russell NY January 15th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    Defiance looks good. Daniel Craig is awesome.

  111. Fran January 15th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    The Yankees went out and spend a lot of money on CC and AJ because they had to. The Yankees needed to upgrade the front of the rotation and had to pay to get it done, even if it meant overpaying. Pettitte should not compare himself to CC and AJ because he would be back end of the rotation, not the ace. The Yankees must feel that they have other alternatives and thus no need to pay any more than $10 million, which is a lot of money for a back end of the rotation pitcher.

  112. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    Yankee Fan 23

    If you want to see another season with a difference like that with each league’s MVP, check out 1965.

  113. BD January 15th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    One thing I agree with Pettitte on is that his season WASN’T that bad. Adjusting for defense (FIP), his ERA was 3.71 – same as his career FIP. His strikeout rate of 6.97 was a bit better than his career mark. His walks and HR rates were only marginally higher. His IP were fine and he amassed many of those innings by pitching through an injury.

    There’s an excellent chance Pettitte could pitch very, very well in 2008. Bill James projects him for a 3.90 ERA!

    The problem isn’t that Pettitte is no longer any good, it’s that the Yankees probably have a different view of the market for Pettitte and their other options for replacing his value. They know he really doesn’t want to play for another team, and he’s probably just not going to create an enormous amount of fan interest for any other team either. The HGH/Clemens connection undoubtedly has hurt his public image, he had an unimpressive year in 2008 and everyone seems to think this will be his last year.

    The Yankees do have other options, albeit none as good as just re-signing Andy. They could get a warm body like Garland in there for half of what Pettitte costs, then possibly use some of the savings to trade for Mike Cameron. Or, they may figure a combo platter of Hughes and Aceves will give them at least league-average production while not costing them anything. It’s not like the failure to sign Andy is going to ruin them for the season.

    Even though Pettitte is probably worth more than $10 million in 2009, the Yankees are probably taking a hard line with him because they know they can and because they figure loyalty is a two-way street.

  114. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 10:17 am

    400 Randal Way Ste 106
    Spring, TX 77388
    281-350-7000
    281-350-7010 Fax
    contact@hendricks-sports.com

    Everybody contact the Hendricks Twins and demand that the public get information on the mysterious 36 million dollar offer immediately!

  115. Bob Mac January 15th, 2009 at 10:18 am

    One must wonder if Pettitte has had a full off-season of conditioning this year considering he doesn’t know if he is playing. If I were the Yankees I would want to know this before I went further. I hope they are looking at veteran alternatives.
    On the booing issue, just stop it unless they don’t run out ground balls or show some other lack of effort. Baseball is a game of failure. It only hurts a player to be booed by his own fans be he a rookie or a veteran. Ask Tino if the booing helped him in his early Yankee days. Fans should support and encourage, not abuse.

  116. Stephen January 15th, 2009 at 10:19 am

    Pujols has a great arm, so let’s strade for him and convert him to catcher. Then move Posada to first, Teixiera to center.

    Gardner has range, so move him to shortstop, Jeter to DH and Matsui can be traded to SF for Zito. Fianlly, the rotation’s set!

  117. m January 15th, 2009 at 10:19 am

    Oy,

    You may not know this, but I live in a different world (right guys?!) and, yes, it is very early.

    Why was my comment so far-fetched? If the Yankees are interested in Garcia, it’s because they want him to fill that last (Andy’s) slot in the rotation. We’re not the Sox, signing every pitcher with a broken wing while hoping they’ll come through.

  118. Smarter than you January 15th, 2009 at 10:20 am

    Pete,

    You missed the best arguments for and against:

    For: His FIP of 3.71 in 2008 was lower than it was in his superior season of 2007 (3.87).

    Against: He said that money didn’t matter to him in his press conference when he came to spring training in the wake of the PED situation, and again in during the season.

  119. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    Just a heads up….

    BJ Upton’s likely to miss the first week of the season due to concerns about how the cold weather would affect his surgically repaired shoulder.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3834557

  120. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    It seems reasonable that the Yankees are taking the PED issue into account with respect to their offer to Andy. Look at it this way: Clemens is gone. Giambi (and his recovered image) is gone, too. The Mitchell Report is no longer every-day news.

    However, when the grand jury convenes, it will be in the papers and on TV all the time: “Yankee pitcher Andy Pettitte arriving in federal court to testify.” Now, this case may never get to trial; most don’t. But the grand jury process will go forward, and Andy will be called as a witness, with the distractions that go along with it.

    Is that a reason to not sign him? Dunno. But it might be a reason to not bid against yourself to do it.

  121. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    rodg
    They keeping the Trop at about the same temp I have to keep my home now?

  122. rover January 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    Last year it wasn’t likely about the money, but then the market wasn’t the same. Sure Andy wasn’t thinking of a 40% downturn. Andy makes sense, gonna be somebody. Just somebody doesn’t necessarily make sense.
    I would think the one year deal (overpaid)is a very safe route to go. 10,11, mill for the pitcher maybe two for the 1 year deal. Andy is not likely done, he could easily win 15 + in the bottom of the rotation. Nobody else actually makes sense. Wonder how many fA pitchers worth anything would take a 1 yr deal?
    You invest nearly half a billion bucks in your team and then allow two three of even four mill to keep you from finishing the deal. Hmm wuwt.

  123. jennifer January 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    Tex’s New Best Friend

    Don’t you know according to someone on here left is Jorge’s. :lol:

  124. pat January 15th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    Pujols is not likely to beat youngest to 400/500 HRs because A-Rod started playing younger than him so had a year head start on age records.

    Other than those, what record does A-Rod have now that he can beat?

  125. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    ” I was saying he could possibly be counted on for more quality innings than Livan”.

    doreen- l
    pettitte is so much better than livan at this stage that he’d likely have way more quality innings. pettitte really had one bad year(for him) last year. especially being a lefty, he could reinvent himself( like mussina did) and pitch effectively probably for years( barring a career ending injury)with his stuff.

    my real point is that the yankees need innings as the number one priority from their #4 starter. most fans underestimate what wakefield does for the red sox rotation. he prevents other pitchers from having overworked bad innings. call it the “take one for the team factor”.

    this effect is very real. it is why pitchers iike wakefield and hernandez always seem to have a job and their teams seem to have winning records despite some funky earned run averages at times from the respective innings eater.

    a team can have starters with low eras, but who inflate other starters’ and relievers’ eras because the other pitchers have to pick up their innings. this isn’t measured, but it happens. people that don’t understand it can’t figure out how pitchers like livan earn 4-5 million a year.

  126. Tom January 15th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    Oy, “m”‘s comment should not be dismissed, or is it far fetched. It has been reported that Garcia may sign with the Yankees:

    “An SI.com report surfaced Wednesday afternoon that cited the Yankees, Mets, Rangers or White Sox as the most likely destination for Garcia. The report states that Garcia is close to making his decision.”

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....;fext=.jsp

  127. Tex's New Best Friend January 15th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    If Andy Pettitte walks on the mound in Yankee Stadium wearing a Yankee uniform no one will boo him or chant. Only idiots would boo a player wearing the Yankee uniform.

    Isnt left Jeters?

  128. Oy January 15th, 2009 at 10:29 am

    calling thier offices and bugging people and preventing them from doing thier jobs is just wrong.

    people, dont call those #’s and bug those people, it will have no effect at all and its extremly rude to post it.

    signing garcia is like signing smoltz was for the sox, they are hoping he will contribute, they will NOT pencil him in as the #4. it clearly does not mean that andy’s out.

  129. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 10:29 am

    Can everyone please stop bringing up Jon Garland. He’s not a good option for us for two reasons:

    1) He’s not a very good pitcher at this point. Well below league average in both stuff and results. I’d much rather take a flier on Garcia or Pedro before Garland. He’d get ROCKED in the AL East.

    2) He wants to stay on the West Coast where he grew up.

  130. vinny-b (Rocco Baldelli for CF) January 15th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    gentlemen (and ladies): I hope everythin is well with you all. and Happy New Year.

    the positive: Rickey Henderson, the greatest baseball player of my life-time, admitted to the HOF (on ballot 1)

    why i detest the Hall of Fame:

    no Andre Dawson

    no Lee Smith

    no Tim Raines

    Jim Rice is deemed worthy, after 15 tries. Ditto for Gossage, last year.

  131. vinny-b January 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    signature corrected.

  132. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Brad Pitt’s better-looking brother:

    Probably not – although, it’d probably be a good money saver if they did. The issue is that they start the year on the road in Boston and Baltimore for their first 6. They’ll likely hold him out of those games as it will mostly likely be pretty cold for them. Then, when they return to Tampa, he’ll start playing.

  133. m January 15th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Oy,

    You’ve got a point about a flyer on Garcia. But if that’s the case, I think he likes his chances with the other teams better.

    But people here are already condemning Andy and banishing him to purgatory, so a signing of a real starter (who’s Johnson?) is a sign. Maybe not as significant as I initially thought.

    Rodg,

    You’re the one who brought up Garland! If he would take a one-year deal, I would take him before Garcia or Pedro. The goal is to get an innings-eater and he’s healthier and younger. I wouldn’t be thrilled about it, though.

  134. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    Rodg
    I woulda typed my reply sooner but my keyboard iced up.
    Yeah, I figured they must’ve been starting the season off in the NE or Midwest.
    Which always made me wonder why MLB doesn’t take this into account when making the schedules…

  135. Tom January 15th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    B.J. Upton had the same surgery Jorge had.

  136. Bellylard January 15th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    Montelban’s gone?

    Khan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Khan!!!!!!!

    Khan??

    Wake up, Khan.

    Oh, crap…

    Nevermind.

  137. Oy January 15th, 2009 at 10:36 am

    vinny b

    amen on the rickey comment. he is not getting his due, he was the best offensive player since 1970 and one of the greatest all-time and all people want to talk about is whether he will refer to himself in the 3rd person (like thousands of atheletes at the time were doing after carl lewis started it.)

  138. bfadds January 15th, 2009 at 10:36 am

    I feel like the Pettitte attacks stem more from his age than his statistics. A few days ago, one of the “Pinch Hitters” for Pete wrote an article about Jeter’s age by the end of his expiring contract and how he wasn’t “worth” the investment. Obviously the Yankees are going to re-up on Derek once he comes back, but the statistics won’t be there (compared to other SS around the league). It’s sad to see the faces of the Yankee Dynasty grow older and to see the fan base (in return) start to sour. It happened to Bernie Williams, it’s happening to Andy Pettitte, and I hope we wont see it happen to Jeter and Posada.

  139. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 10:37 am

    alas, it is true. khan is ghan.

  140. Vrsce January 15th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Whenever the blog lags Pete posts a provocative Andy post.

    It works.
    Although his support of Andy conveniently left out the drug use lies and misleading the Yankees.

    In any event it will soon be settled and we can move on from this Pettitte issue.

  141. Bronx Jeers January 15th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Yanks should offer Andy 10,000,103 $ a la Igawa.

    That’s the original 10 mil and 103$ for every earned run he gave up last year.

  142. Bob(The Original) January 15th, 2009 at 10:39 am

    I’m actually indiefferent to the whole Pettitte thing at this point. If he comes back fine, if not oh well.

    Jerome Preisler had an excellent column on the situation yesterday:

    http://web.yesnetwork.com/news.....038;vkey=7

  143. helno51 January 15th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    its amazing how when pete likes a certain player or has a set opinion on a topic how he cant even comprehend the opposing view and even misrepresents it. No one is saying that Andy should just accept any offer…unless of course Pete believe 10 million is minimum wage. And Pete even admits, although he cant comprehend the meaning of it, that Andy didnt pitch up to his potential last year because his offseason got ruined by the whole steroid thing. So that means Andy took the full 16 million last year when he wasnt completely prepared for the season because of something that was his won fault and which he didnt tell anyone.

  144. gianthinker (SIGN BEN SHEETS!!!) January 15th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    I think Yankees fans generally love Andy Pettitte. But none of us feel bad for a guy being offered $10MM to throw a baseball. No one else is in the bidding for Andy so there’s no reason to bump the offer. I wont make $10MM in my life and I’m suppose to feel bad for Pettitte who is clearly a cheater and is clearly more dishonest than we Yankees fans who have drank his cool-aid for a long time have given him credit for. For the record, I love Andy. I think his innings are very important to the team. That being said I’d still rather have Ben Sheets in our rotation and I’m not going to beg Pettitte to come back. We’re talking about a #4-#5 pitcher. There’s no begging for bottom end starters. As much as I love Andy I also recognize how quick he left us when he wasn’t our #1 off-season target before. Truthfully, he didn’t care about the attention. He left us for more money. Then he left the Astros to come back to us for more money. Then he accepts a $16MM option 6 days before he knows he’s being busted for HGH. Even after being proven a cheat the Yanks stood by him. The fans and the organization. Then he lied about using it twice. Then it was a couple times. Then the attention went to congress and Clemens and Andy’s issue was swept under the rug. Why, because he’s well liked. We want to buy into the pretty boy, say your prayers, take your vitamins type Andy persona. In the end he’s just a greedy pro player and not the ultimate nice guy. It’s easy to be nice when you’re being paid top dollar to do it. You are who you are when no ones looking. Andy has proven to be a cheat and a money follower when he’s left alone. Once again, I love Andy Pettitte but he is what he is and lets not make him a victim because he’s being offered $10MM instead of $16MM. Hopefully Andy will come back and if he does all of the bashing will go away but right now Andy’s brought these comment upon himself because of his actions not ours. From a Yankees fan perspective people are having a hard time understanding how Andy wont take $10MM during a recession to pitch on arguable the best rotation he’d be in during his entire career. Everyone says we owe Andy something for everything he’s done for the team. Was he doing that for free? I’m pretty sure he was very well paid to pitch here. The Yankees owe him nothing. Why because he did well? Do the Yankees get paid back by guys like Pavano who clearly didn’t earn their money? NO. Contracts are a guestimation system where you hope everything works out. Andy has made good money his entire career so he can cry me a river about being paid. I’d kill somebody on national television for $10MM! Again, I hope Andy comes back but I refuse to feel bad for him for one second. If he doesn’t want to take the deal thats his choice but lets be clear, the Yankees owe him nothing. If anything, he owes the Yanks for leaving them (along with Roger) at a time when the team could have seriously competed for a championship during that time period. When he and Roger left the rotation was never the same and stunted the teams ability to play for a while. Both he and Roger were brought back as saviors and I’m pretty sure we still have the same number of championships as before. Andy has gotten just as much out of the Yanks as they have from him. I love you Andy and your innings are very important but we dont need to beg you to come back. These are the Yankees. Players need to beg to get the pinstripes on. Not the other way around.

  145. helno51 January 15th, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Also have people started to notice that when Pete disagrees with you you are “insane reader”. it was really evident during the whole Tex signing when it turned out not to be “insane reader” but more like “wrong writer”. Now the Andy debate is taking on teh same tone. I like this blog a lot but if I wanted to have my opinions insulted and misrepresented I could just listen to Mike Francessa.

  146. m January 15th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    gianthinker,

    I read your last couple of sentences (isn’t that where good writers put their points?).

    I agree, but in this case the Yankees need Pettitte more than he needs them.

  147. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    “Whenever the blog lags Pete posts a provocative Andy post.”

    I absolutely noticed the same thing.

    Enter the marionettes!

    ;)

  148. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    pete,

    what about the dollars? the issue is the dollars and your post ignored it.

    have u been speaking to the hendrickses?

  149. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    m -
    BD threw out Garland, that’s why I brought him up. I’d much rather use Aceves/Hughes before Garland. Throw in Pedro/Garcia with those two and I think you’d get better results than if you signed Garland. He stuff has really gone downhill. 1.51 WHIP is BAD. More BB/9 than K/9 and .299 BAA is BAD. And this was against the AL West which is weaker than the East. On top of that, he’s not too keen on pitching on the East coast. He’d be absolute worst case scenario for me.

  150. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    R I P Ricardo

    I can only wish your casket is lined with rich Corinthian leather.

  151. rover January 15th, 2009 at 10:48 am

    Having other options and having other good options are not one and the same.

  152. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    “I agree, but in this case the Yankees need Pettitte more than he needs them.”

    Unless the Yankees had no other options I couldn’t come close to agreeing with this position. In fact I think the reality is the complete opposite, under all of the circumstances we know about.

  153. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    And if the Yankees needed Pettitte more than he needed them he’d be signed.

    Unless you think the Yankees don’t have the same insights you do?

  154. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 15th, 2009 at 10:50 am

    I’m late to the party, as always, but:

    1) If Posada’s health was that serious of a concern, Cashman would have likely signed another catcher. Hell, even Varitek hits better than Molina, and Molina is one of my favorite players!

    2) Right now, for what the Yankees need, Pettitte remains the best option. That’s likely why the Yankees haven’t gone out and signed someone else yet. Of the non-injury prone free agent pitchers, Pettitte is really the best one left.

  155. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    helno51

    unless you are the person who emailed him ‘andy pettitte sucks’ or some such, you’re indignity is misplaced.

    where in there does pete call anybody but the emailer an insane reader?

  156. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Brad Pitt’s better-looking brother -
    I agree that MLB should take into account the location of the early season games. Why in the world would you play those games in Boston and Baltimore in April instead of Tampa. I’d guess there argument against is something along the lines of competitive balance so that the South/Dome teams don’t get too many home games to start the season. There’s probably a money argument against it too. I just don’t buy either of those though. The competitive balance issue becomes a non-issue because the north teams would then most likely have more home games toward the end of the season which would mostly even things out (if anything, I’d say that’s an advantage for them). I don’t see the money issue either because having opening day in warmer weather would have to bring out more people and cause more concession sales than cold weather. I mean, we’re only talking a week or two.

  157. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    mel, give us a weather report, please….

  158. m January 15th, 2009 at 10:52 am

    trisha,

    That’s just my opinion. But you knew that.

  159. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    why don’t the yankees offer financial incentives?

    it seems like they are missing out on some low risk ,high upside deals.

    in the pettitte situation, if they did offer financial incentives , they would have more flexibility in coming to an agreement.

  160. BD January 15th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    “this is one case where old school knowledge beats new school stat based knowledge. if cashman would have had a pitcher like livan instead of hughes and kennedy ( and who had a similar record to livan), the yankees would have won 7-10 games more and would have made the playoffs.”

    Sorry, but that’s complete monkey-toss material.

    Livan gave up 85 ER in 139.2 IP. Hughes/IPK gave up 51 in 73.2. If Livan had pitched Hughes/IPK’s innings, he would have given up 44 ER over those 73.2 IP, saving the Yankees 7 ER. However, he pitched 66 more innings than Hughes/IPK pitched. Over those 66, he would have given up another 40 ER. The Yankees’ bullpen, with their 3.79 ERA, would have only given up only 28 ER over those last 66 IP. Thus, having Livan pitch for Hughes/IPK and then “saving” the Yankees BP the extra 66 innings of work would have COST the Yankees a net of 5 runs (40 – 28 = 12; 12 – 7 = 5).

    Where did you ever get the idea that gving a bunch of innings to a pitcher with a 5.48 ERA would win your team 7-10 more games?

  161. m January 15th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    ham,

    Seriously. Gusts of 60 mph. But I am not complaining at all. -50 in the Midwest? Yikes!

  162. Sean Serritella January 15th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    I wouldn’t mind living in that stadium. I’m not for signing Andy Pettitte. Last year was 2008. He’ll be a year older in 2009.

  163. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 10:57 am

    bd, you have to add in that livan would have been pitching instead of rasner and/or ponson at times, so that’s incomplete. but i admire your quick reference skills.

  164. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    ellen, although not all grand jury probes end up in indictments (though the saying “you can indict a ham sandwich” did come from somewhere…), I’d really say that smart money is on this one going all the way.

    http://blogs.masslawyersweekly.....01/13/206/

  165. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    thanks, the wind chill in philly right now is 13. but for a second there i could feel a tropical breeze (okay a tropical gale…)

  166. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    m -
    You see the Lakers blow that game against the Spurs last night? What the heck was Fish doing fouling Mason on that shot?!?!?!?!?! Then we don’t have Kobe take the game winner. And Trevor gets called for a bogus travel call when he gets fouled and should have been shooting free throws for the win. Aye, I’m still mad thinking about it.

  167. YankeeRay January 15th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    randy l
    January 15th, 2009 at 10:54 am
    why don’t the yankees offer financial incentives?

    it seems like they are missing out on some low risk ,high upside deals.

    in the pettitte situation, if they did offer financial incentives , they would have more flexibility in coming to an agreement.

    —–

    Randy, someone posted on here last week about incentive clauses for pitchers. They are far and few in between. There were no innings incentives allowed and that is the one thing that would make most sense for Andy.

  168. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    trisha – I’ve indicted several ham sammiches in my day. :) I think it’s still possible that he agrees to some other deal to avoid indictment but, granted, unlikely, given his immense ego.

  169. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    -25 before the windchill for me here in Iowa. Coldest day we’ve had in 10 years.

  170. BD January 15th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    “m – BD threw out Garland, that’s why I brought him up. I’d much rather use Aceves/Hughes before Garland.”

    For the record, I agree with that. Garland figures to be somewhat worse than Pettitte, while Hughes/Aceves could easily be as good or even better. But even with Garland, you save a significant chunk of money which could be applied to a trade for Mike Cameron, which would probably more than make up for the downgrade from Pettitte to Garland.

  171. m January 15th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    rodg,

    I had guests walk in at the point where we were up 108-105, so I turned off the computer like a good hostess. Thank goodness I did.

    One point loss on a back to back against the Spurs is nothing to weep about. It’s all about the playoffs. haha.

    Like I told sos, we really miss Farmar, Sasha, and Luke. We have a Chinese rookie point guard spelling Fish. And we still almost pulled out the Texas Two-step.

  172. YankeeRay January 15th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    It’s a brisk 67 right now in South Forida. Dipped down to the low 50′s last night. Burrrr

  173. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    mel, I guess I am just stymied because you are such a savvy poster and on the Pettitte issue you just don’t seem to be seeing the whole picture. I have to assume it is some unswerving loyalty to who Pettitte has been to the Yankees, because otherwise I have always seen you really apply balance – and it just doesn’t seem you are doing it here. Just my opinion of course. For example, in light of the fact that there are grand jury proceedings coming up and Andy will be pulled into that maelstrom and that will have to affect his training, I’m perplexed on how you can still think the Yanks need Andy more than he needs them.

  174. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    i say nail rogers a$$ to the wall unless he admits he lied and took PED’s. and tejada, and bonds, and palmero and anybody else who lied to congress or a grand jury.

    i dont necessarily want anybody to spend hard time over it, just fines and a suspended sentence would be fine by me, its the point, these guys all thought they could lie and get away with it b/c they are stud atheletes.

  175. m January 15th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Gotta go, but I started up the Hughes/Aceves bandwagon. :)

  176. Rock Smoother January 15th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Pete,

    I couldn’t agree more….Andy makes this roatation the best in baseball…without him the Yanks are a mediocre Phil hughes and one injury away from having last year;’s rotation….

    Joba is not pitching 200 innings, Hughes is not pitching 200 innings, and AJ Burnett could very well spend 2 months on the DL…..

    When the rotation quickly begins Wang Sabathia and 3 anyonmous sources the Yankees are going to wisehd they ponied up the extra 2 mill for Andy….

    Not to mention none of their current starters can relay what it’s like to be a starting pitcher in New York to CC or AJ…or the kids….

    Andy is needed for innings, veteran prescence, guidance, and depth

    4 of Andy’s last 9 starts he went 7 or more innings and gave up 3 runs or less….yet he only got a win in one of those 4…..if Andy’s record was say 15-13 you think the Yankees might be thinking differently….

    Not to mention if he had just DL-ed it when he hurt his shoulder when he was 12-8 with a 3.9 ERA you think people would’ve felt differently….

    I think Girardi and Cash and baseball opps knows his importance but ownership and management does NOT

  177. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    damn, rodg, i feel ya.

    hope you have an engine block heater.

  178. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    “I think it’s still possible that he agrees to some other deal to avoid indictment”

    Ah, gotcha! Like one of those “I only pleaded guilty to keep my family from having to go through the turmoil of a trial (since I am so concerned for my family that I managed to drag my wife into it to and throw her under the bus by lying about knowing she had HGH shots to try to look buff in SI)and if it was only about me, well I would have gone to trial without thinking twice about it. But it’s over now and I’m not going to answer any more questions that y’all ask but I will give y’all one more comment and then I’m going to leave y’all so I can spend time with my family, and Deb and I can finally have time to talk about why Mindy McCready is such a liar. My final comment is this: I never used steroids but I pleaded guilty only to avoid a trial and spare my family the pain. Now the next time I expect to talk to y’all is the day I’m inducted into the Hall of Fame.”

  179. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    m -
    Definitely agree that the split on the back to back with a depleted roster was a good thing. We’re basically playing with 2 guards on the entire team right now (don’t get me started on have Yue on the team since he’s basically unusable and that roster spot could have gone to someone who could have helped us). Just would have been nice to get the sweep since it was within our grasp.

  180. m January 15th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    trisha,

    I really got a go, but I wanted to respond quickly. Yes, we’re on opposite sides of the fence.

    I just had to chuckle because why would someone like me have insights that the Yankees don’t?

  181. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    What’s sillier.
    Al Gore’s man made global warming crap or people’s idea of putting Posada in LF?

  182. BD January 15th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    “bd, you have to add in that livan would have been pitching instead of rasner and/or ponson at times, so that’s incomplete. but i admire your quick reference skills.”

    Thanks, but the difference is still negligible. Ponson/Rasner pitched to a combined ERA of 5.59 vs. 5.48 for Livan. Over 66 innings, that difference amounts to less than a run. So, if we stipulate that Livan would have replaced ALL of Hughes/IPK’s innings and 66 from Ponson/Rasner, then he would have saved the NYY a total of 8 runs. That would not have made the NYY even a full win better, and it doesn’t support Randy’s point at all, which was that a “rubber-armed” guy like Livan (139 IP = rubber armed?) would win you a bunch of games by saving the BP.

  183. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    bd-

    it doesn’t work that way.

    the question you need to ask is how much higher was pettitte’s era because he had to cover for hughes’ and kennedy’s short outings.

    how many times was pettitte asked to take one for the team and stay out there an inning too long?

    how do you measure this? but it happens. if you don’t think so, ask anyone who’s been around the game what is asked of pitchers from managers and coaches when a staff is taxed because someone else isn’t doing his job.

    if livan pitched instead of hughes and kennedy, pettite, wang,and mussina would not have been asked to pitch longer in their outings following the aborted starts by hughes and kennedy.

    i guarantee you that relief pitchers got hammered at times because they pitched when they shouldn’t have because of hughes and kennedy’s short starts.

    maybe you have to be smarter than a stat monkey to understand this.

  184. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    ray, im sooooo close to putting the golf bag in the car and taking off. its 17 hrs, straight shot to wpb. but ill wait about 5 weeks….

  185. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    trisha – precisely!

  186. Yanksgal07 January 15th, 2009 at 11:16 am

    It’s pretty sad when you boo your own players …seems ignorant too. I’d like to think it was only the 12-13 year olds but unfortunately I attend many games being a seat holder and sad to say in many cases it’s the “older” generation doing the booing. What can you say tho’ …they even booed Jeter and Mo at times? Total class …low class that is…

    As long as they wear the pinstripes as a Yankee I stand behind my ballplayers. Actually, I don’t boo any ballplayers…Yankees or otherwise…I like to think I have higher respect for the game and the players in general.

    Go Yankees 2009 !!

  187. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    bd, u sold me. i didnt like the livan idea last year but when i was watching sidney the buffoon on the mound, it did creep into my head more than once.

    thanks for the hard #’s

  188. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    booing hometown teams and players is a new york rite. if you cant take it, dont come to ny. we will boo you when you deserve it, and we will then turn right around and cheer you like you’ve never been cheered in your life when you deserve it. handle it. mickey mantle got booed, jeter got booed, mattingly got booed his first game, i was there. and he deserved it.

    its nothing personal, its new york. we’ll make it up to you when you win. believe me we will.

  189. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Ham -
    Yeah, dang cold here. It’s supposed to warm up quite a bit by the end of the work day today so I should be okay getting the car started to go home (car’s only 4 months old and sits in the garage at my house). But I had to do a little shoveling this morning at the end of my driveway where the plow left a bunch of snow and got really bundled up to do that. Only stayed out for about 15 minutes.

  190. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    Pete-

    It’s obvious from the comments over the last week that a lot of people who comment on your blog either resent ballplayers in general over the amount they are paid, resent Andy because of the HGH controversy or because of his poor finish to the season last year, or consider them personally involved in the Yanks’ balance sheet.

    Also, when labor and management in baseball collide, there seems to be a general inclination among the public to support management. It mystifies me, but it’s a fact.

    People seem to think Andy’s sole choice is to take the Yanks’ offer, whatever it may be, or retire. Perhaps that’s true, but there’s no way to conclude that from the facts available to the public.

    It’s well known Andy only wants to play for the Yanks. There is no way anyone on this blog can state as a fact that has not affected the offers he has received.

    In fact, it seems quite reasonable to suppose it has. It takes time and effort to decide to make an offer on a player. Time and analysis ability are limited commodities. Businesses are usually unwilling to invest that on a potential asset they think they are unlikely to acquire. Anyone in business knows that, but it’s a fact young folk often miss because they haven’t had the experience. This depresses the market for Andy.

    Andy has enormous amount of leverage here:

    The Yanks must think he is not suffering any holdover from last season’s injury, or they would not have offered him $10MM.

    He is left handed, which the Yanks need.

    He is willing to pitch on a one year deal, which the Yanks also need.

    He will allow them to develop Hughes at the pace the Yanks chhoose.

    He is very likely to pitch 200+ innings at above league average numbers.

    He has had success in New York, in the AL East, and in bi8g pressure situations.

    Many, if not most, NY fans love him.

    In addition, Lowe signed for $60MM over 4 years. Andy, while not Lowe, is close, especially adjusting for the defense behind them and the divisions they pitched in. After the Lowe signing, the Yanks know Andy’s worth more than $10MM a year, and Andy is probably aware he’s not going to get $15MM.

    When business people sit down face to face to negotiate a deal, all these things matter. Especially the long history between Andy and the Yanks.

    Face to face, the Yanks aren’t going to say to Andy “F you, you’ll take it and like it”, and Andy is going to negotiate. The Lowe signing makes it just about inevitable, IMO.

    IMO, the deal will get done.

  191. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    Trisha, would that be people aren’t “seeing the whole picture” in the same view finder as you? People on this board (not just you) are such hypocrites. Pettitte’s dishonest…Pettitte’s a cheat…Pettitte’s a liar. As if you that say it haven’t done dishonest things, lied, stolen from others, covered your behinds for your own benefits. My God, the only twoprofessions as dishonest as lawyers are media types and politicians.

  192. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    randy l-
    Why the insult to people who look at and trust the stats? Uncalled for. That’s what it always amounts to in these discussions though when the stats disagree (and often prove wrong) on a point someone is trying to make and they don’t have anything to back up their claim. I don’t get it.

  193. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    look out, if the mets dont get ollie, or if the talks snag, andy-to-the-mets is gonna come up. maybe thats what the hedricks’s are waiting for.

    joel sherman already suggested it on xm this morning.

  194. Whatever January 15th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    On run support, one of the reasons it was lower for Andy is his disaster innings tended to be early in games which a) took pressure off the opposing pitcher and b) made our hitters either desperate and/or demoralized.

    But let’s pretend he’s worth $10 million per anyway.

  195. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    “a “rubber-armed” guy like Livan (139 IP = rubber armed?)”

    there is no question that hernandez consistently has been among league leaders in innings pitched. at the point he left the twins for colorado he was right up there with league leaders in innings pitched.

    there are lots of things that are not measured in baseball. smart teams like the twins know how to take advantage of the things that aren’t measured by stats. teams like the blue jays don’t. that’s why they consistently under achieve while the twins consistently overachieve.

    of course the really smart teams use both stats and knowledge that isn’t stat based. ironically the red sox do a good job of this. i think early on , especially after 2006, that they realized there were limitations to a stat only based system.

  196. YankeeRay January 15th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    Ham Fighters
    January 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am
    ray, im sooooo close to putting the golf bag in the car and taking off. its 17 hrs, straight shot to wpb. but ill wait about 5 weeks….

    ———–

    Ham, believe it or not when it gets in the 50′s and 60′s people here freak out. They will wear wool hats and heavy jackets. Pretty funny.
    I was used to going out at night in NY in nothing but a flannel in January.
    I will admit that you feel it when it dips below 70 but I still refuse to put the heat on even when it’s 50. Everyone else does. lol
    Let me know when youre coming and we’ll hit the links.

  197. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    Wave: “enormous amount of leverage”? Enormous? That’s quite a statement. Is he the only pitcher with a working arm left on the FA market? Frankly, unless or until I hear that there is another offer for him ANYWHERE I’m not going to assume there is one. Logic runs in the other direction – there is no reason for Andy, or his high-paid agents, to keep a competing offer a secret. I’m not saying he will or will not sign with the Yankees. But if he has enormous leverage in this situation it must involve compromising photos of Cashman and circus animals.

  198. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    GB: hey, easy on the lawyers. We’re only here to help. :)

  199. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    i would agree that the overall effect livan would have had last season would have been greater than the stats bd quoted indicate b/c of decreased stress on the bp and the other starters.

    however hating on the stats is weak. i think it gives you a good general indication of the difference you’d get minus the intangibles. there are always intangibles in such calculations, but that doesnt make the stats worthless. it’s just another factor in the total equation.

  200. Mikey January 15th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Andy is old news, we got Kei Iwagawa fresh off his pitcher of the year award he won in AAA, what more could we want?

  201. YankeeRay January 15th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    Ham Fighters
    January 15th, 2009 at 11:29 am
    look out, if the mets dont get ollie, or if the talks snag, andy-to-the-mets is gonna come up. maybe thats what the hedricks’s are waiting for.

    joel sherman already suggested it on xm this morning.

    ——

    Ham, if this happens I would gladly take Ollie. That would hamper our kid movement for next year unless of course Joba goes to pen.
    I would be ok with that whole scenario as I think Ollie is a very high ceiling guy and I have no problem with Joba in pen if Hughes and company can fill 5th spot.
    For the record, this is not a Joba to the pen post, yet.

  202. ANSKY January 15th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    Yanks should stick with the $10M guaranteed offer to Pettitte.

    IMO both sides could compromise with bonuses of $1M per win for each win beginning with win #14, $1M for reaching 190 innings, and another $1M for reaching 210 innings. Or whatever.

    So if he pitches 200 innings and goes 15-10, for example, he gets $13M. If he has a bad year but pitches 200 innings he gets $11M. If he pitches over 210 innings and goes 17-10, he gets the same $16M salary as he did last year.

    If that’s a little too easy or rich, you start the $1M per win bonuses at 15 wins. Or the innings bonuses at 200 & 220. Whatever. They should be attainable goals but still reflect the performance value of a highly-paid veteran pitcher.

  203. Corey M. January 15th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    Everyone saying andy is old news has no clue really….he had 4 more strikeouts than Dice-K last year, and 48 less walks than Dice-K last year….while pitching about 39 innings more than Dice-K last year. The only difference is dice-k was a houdini AND had good defense behind him. Id welcome Andy back any day of the week. He can still pitch and people wanting them to goto war with their current rotation are asking for their 4 & 5 guys to be youngsters again just like last year.

  204. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    ellen
    January 15th, 2009 at 11:32 am
    GB: hey, easy on the lawyers. We’re only here to help.

    ————————————————————

    Lawyers only become lawyers as a stepping stone to the real money….politics. I’ve just seen to many that have twisted, lied and distorted the truth, and knowing they dd so for money or name enhancement….Roy Cohn, F. Lee Bailey, Shapiro, Cochran, and plenty in normal society. I’ve also seen it in other professios, to, but, not to the extent as those three. If you’re totally honest and clean, my apologies….you’re probably the only one.

  205. 86w183 January 15th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    I understand all sides of the Pettite debate, but I don’t understand why so many seem to take this so personally. IF Andy had been a career Yankee I think they offer him another $ 16 mill, but he forfeited “icon” status with his three years in Houston. I’ve said all along $ 10 M was more than fair and he can accept it or not, but I agree with those who feel some veteran arm makes more sense than going into 2009 with Joba and Hughes in the rotation.

    One possible face saving proposal… A year @ $ 10 million with an option year for $ 12 M or a $ 2M buyout. Pettite gets a bit more cash, Yanks preserve an affordable option for 2010 if they want it. For all the criticism of his late season pitching his ERA was 4.76 the last four starts.

    Livan Hernandez? Please. Darryl Rasner had a better ERA as a starter (5.48 to 5.40) as well as a better ERA+ and a better WHIP.

  206. BD January 15th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Randy wronte: “if livan pitched instead of hughes and kennedy, pettite, wang,and mussina would not have been asked to pitch longer in their outings following the aborted starts by hughes and kennedy.

    “i guarantee you that relief pitchers got hammered at times because they pitched when they shouldn’t have because of hughes and kennedy’s short starts.”

    I think the part of this you’re missing is that LIVAN got hammered most of the time. He pitched to a mid-5 ERA. Those other guys you mentioned, Wang, Moose, Pettitte, and the Yankees bullpen, they all pitched much, much better than Livan Hernandez did. Sure, if you could have had Livan pitch just those 73 innings Hughes/IPK pitched, you would have saved a handful of runs. But bringing him in to gobble up a bunch of innings that would otherwise have been pitched by Andy, CMW, Moose, and the BP as a whole is insanity.

    Having a rubber-armed innings-eater is fine if the guy can PITCH. Hernandez had an ERA+ last year of 69!

    I get that you think Livan’s horrendous 5.48 ERA pitching would have taken some of the load off the other pitchers, but I don’t see any evidence that the rest of the staff pitched poorly on account of having to cover for Hughes/IPK’s short outings. Although those two did have a lot of short outings, the rest of the staff (or at least the guys you mentioned) pitched pretty well. Even Pettitte pitched well when you look at his peripheral stats (which I guess you don’t care to do).

  207. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    I’m just pulling your leg, GB. Actually, some people become lawyers to put bad guys in jail and some to keep good guys out of jail. But those are the ones who (usually) don’t end up on TV, or listed on a ballot in the voter’s booth. My feeling is that lawyers are a bit like plumbers – they may charge too much, but when you need one, you need one.

  208. jennifer January 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Ham- Wallace Matthews had an article as well. I wonder how much the Hendricks Bros kicked back to Wallace for that article.

  209. Fan mail from some flounder January 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Interesting how not agreeing with the blogmeister renders one “insane”.

    Others here have described Pettitte as phony. Add that to “lying cheater” and you’ve nailed it.

    The Yankee brass should just offer $10 mil to everyone listed in the Mitchell report, put them on the active roster and/or sprinkle them throughout the farm system. That way we’ll have cornered the market on “phony, lying, cheaters”.

    Maybe Andy can hold bible study groups and discuss those passages on how to be a better liar. Start a DVD series called “Phoniness is holiness” or “Cheat your way to the Yankee promised land today” ($19.99+ s&h, and if you order in the next 10 mins, you’ll get the “Ginzu”, a $40 value, hurry!).

  210. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    “Why the insult to people who look at and trust the stats?”

    i think i showed great restraint in not taking offense at:

    “Sorry, but that’s complete monkey-toss material.”

    i have no problem with trash talk as it’s kind of fun sometimes, but pete really doesn’t allow it past a certain point.

    if you may have noticed, i have little problem with someone like cb who’s as statistically adept as anyone. the reason is that when he disagrees he sticks to the argument and doesn’t throw out things like “Sorry, but that’s complete monkey-toss material.”

    as far as disagreeing with people who like to look at data, my criticism is that if something isn’t measured there’s no data. for instance, how many runs are created by having a base stealer at first when he doesn’t steal? runs are definitely created, but it’s not measured.

    i think a stat only approach ironically dumbs down the game. there are things that go on that a stat only approach doesn’t see or measure.

    that said, statistical analysis clearly adds knowledge about the game. as cb said the other day, it’s important to understand the revolution that is happening with statistics and data mining that affects not only baseball, but everyone’s lives.

    but that doesn’t mean throwing out experienced based knowledge, intuition, and creativity and putting data analysis ahead of them.

  211. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    Kinda like a left-handed starter, Ellen? lol.

  212. RhapsodyInBlue January 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    I think the problem are his agents.

    After Andy departed for Houston I caught an interview with Cashman on WFAN.

    He claims that after the Yankees made their initial offer to Pettitte that he contacted Andy’s agents the Hendrick Bros numerous time to try to initiate contract discussions. He was told that “Andy wasn’t ready” but when he was, they would then contact Cashman.

    The last time Cashman called, the very next week he heard over the news that Andy had signed with Houston. The yankees were never brought back in after the initial bid.

    To put things in context The Hendricks Bros are also Roger’s agent. They also sit on the board of the Astro home field, Minute Maid Park.

    So Roger retires and then miraculously un-retires and joins Andy in Houston, one would assume the entire plan was hatched the season before with the Hendricks Bros as co-conspirators.

    Cashman and the Yankee front office were hung out to dry by the local media who portrayed Andy as the victim, the Yankees as lackadasical in resigning Andy, which was not the truth.

    The amount Andy signed for was less then the Yankees initial offer.

    I have to believe there is some deal of distrust/animosity toward the Hendrick bros.

  213. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    “Although those two did have a lot of short outings, the rest of the staff (or at least the guys you mentioned) pitched pretty well.”

    how do you know that the rest of the staff wouldn’t have been even better? i think they would have.

  214. kerouac January 15th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Any word on how hard Andy is working out this winter with his baseball future hanging in the balance?

  215. RhapsodyInBlue January 15th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    *lackadaisical*

  216. BD January 15th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Actually, I see that I’ve actually OVERSTATED the quality of Livan’s performance in 2008. I left out his numbers in Colorado. Turns out his season ERA was 6.05 (still a 69 ERA+). I agree he qualifies as a perennial “innings eater,” but he’s just not the guy you want eating innings.

  217. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    BP’s Bro: kinda! ;)

  218. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    BP’s Bro: kinda! ;)

  219. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Sorry for the double post.

  220. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    And from the looks of Livan it appears that innings must pack a few calories.

  221. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 15th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    That’s OK Ellen. MY A.D.D. is so bad I didn’t even notice.

  222. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    “Having a rubber-armed innings-eater is fine if the guy can PITCH. Hernandez had an ERA+ last year of 69!”

    bd-

    to add some humor to this, how did anyone that bad go 13-11 last year ?

    that has to be some kind of statistical anomaly .

  223. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Why would the Yanks want Livan Hernandez instead of giving Hughes a shot? Can someone summarize?

  224. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    ellen
    January 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am
    I’m just pulling your leg, GB. Actually, some people become lawyers to put bad guys in jail and some to keep good guys out of jail. But those are the ones who (usually) don’t end up on TV, or listed on a ballot in the voter’s booth. My feeling is that lawyers are a bit like plumbers – they may charge too much, but when you need one, you need one.

    ————————————————————

    Yeah, I know you were, but, there isn’t enough effort to rid society of the bad elements in those professions and in the medical fields. At least, with the military, they are ridding the ranks and officer corps of the undesirables. There’s much to be done, but, they are cleaning up the messes that make it difficult for us to do our jobs…the undesirables are making thigs deadly for everyone and it’s being weeded out and taken off of the streets and patrols.

  225. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 15th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    ‘Why would the Yanks want Livan Hernandez instead of giving Hughes a shot? Can someone summarize?’

    We want to test the senior citizen walkway ? IDK

  226. BD January 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    “as far as disagreeing with people who like to look at data, my criticism is that if something isn’t measured there’s no data. for instance, how many runs are created by having a base stealer at first when he doesn’t steal? runs are definitely created, but it’s not measured.”

    I’m actually not a stat geek myself, but I think there’s an enormous amount to be gained from the research the sabermetrics people are doing.

    As for the question you raised, it seems to me that IS measurable; whether or not someone has done the research, IDK. I suppose you would tally up the outcome of plate appearances with a runner at 1B, nobody on 2B, and see whether the batters tended to have a higher OPS in those situations with a high-base-stealer on 1st than with a low- base-stealer. Toss out any situations where the guy on first actually stole 2d.

  227. Bob(The Original) January 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    To anyone who reads Bronx Banter, Todd Drew died.

    http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/

  228. David January 15th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Good stuff. Again Pete cherry-picks some emails to make a silly point. Andy pitching with a bad shoulder is supposed to make us feel better about him going forward? Andy claims he faded because he didn’t get his full workout? Maybe it was the fact that he didn’t have his PEDs anymore. His innings can be replaced by a bunch of young arms including Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves, Kontos, and Coke.

  229. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Hey, GB7, there’s bad plumbers, too. Not sure I get your point. “Getting rid of the undesirables” has kind of a bad history…

  230. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    wave your hat-

    i would like pettitte and the yankees to come to a deal. pettitte is fine for a #4 innings eater.
    the yankees clearly need some better than livan. i was using his example last year when the twins used him very effectively.

    cashman needs to get someone who can throw a lot for innings. pettitte is perfect, but if not him then who?

    it can’t be the same approach as last year when hughes and kennedy and a host of characters filled that spot. right now, without that inning eater ,the whole staff is at risk because they will be asked to pick up the innings the weak link doesn’t throw.

  231. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    The Yankees don’t offer incentives in their contracts.

    Their reason is twofold. One, since they pay more than anybody else, they don’t believe the players need incentives to live up to the already high salaries they are receiving. Two, they don’t want to hamstring their manager with incentive clauses that would entail playing time decisions. They don’t believe that’s in the best interests of the team.

    Highly doubtful they make an exception in this case.

    Andy not only doesn’t have “enormous” leverage, but, absent a competing offer, he has no leverage.

    No amount of babble on a blog is going to change that simple fact.

    Comparing Andy’s salary demands to a player who was signed (Lowe) to be an ace of a staff is also off base.

    His salary baseline has been Randy Johnson’s deal with the Giants. One year, 8 million to be the #4 starter on that staff. Same role, same years, as Pettitte’s situation.

    That’s how baseball views him. That’s why his offers are non-existent right now. Very few teams have 8-10 million available dollars to offer him.

    That’s the crux of the dispute.

    You can save all the fanboy platitudes, stats and everything else. His value, whether you want to believe it or not, is closer to 8 million than 16 million.

    Unless somebody blinks or panics, unlikely at this point from the Yankees side, its hard to see where the compromise lies.

    The Yankees have no motivation to bid against themselves here. They have trade chips if needed to get a pitcher. They can sign another of the available free agents arms, whose prices are going down by the day. Or, (probably the least likely/favorable solution) solve the problem from within.

    From hereon out, everyday that passes, players who are unsigned see their value plummet. Team budgets are just about set and there isn’t a lot of available cash for guys right now.

    If the Mets sign Oliver Perez, which they may be forced to do by overpaying him (since the Cardinals and Brewers are both offering more than 3/30 for his services), that eliminates another possible suitor.

    Traditionally in baseball, teams have their budgets/rosters set by Mid-January. Some of the larger market teams (like the Dodgers) have some flexibility. However, the smaller market teams don’t.

    A team like the Dodgers lose their flexibility if they re-sign Manny and/or add Randy Wolf or Jon Garland to their team.

    There is no money out there for a lot of these guys. That’s why so many are unsigned right now.

  232. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    ” his innings can be replaced by a bunch of young arms including Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves, Kontos, and Coke.”

    no they can’t because mlb rules don’t allow 35 players on the team with 15 in the bullpen.

  233. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    ellen – as an attorney who is fighting the good fight the same way I am – and as we both know the professions are full of attorneys who go into the profession to really try to help clean things up – it suprises me that you are even bothering to respond to the comments you have been.

    I would love to be a fly on the wall in Yankee legal right now with the federal indictment information about Clemens swirling about and the obvious implications about Pettitte being pulled into it. Do you think it would be enough for them to pull the offer altogether? Or maybe they’d lowball him enough that they would know he wouldn’t consider it? At this point the phone wires should be burning from Houston to NY with his agents begging to get a deal. If they can’t read the very large handwriting now, they never will!

  234. David January 15th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    So because the young guys weren’t ready last year, they’ll be just as bad this year? With that attitude, you will never develop young guys. Ask the Red Sox if they should have given up on Lester? I bet they are glad they didn’t. Hughes should get the first shot.

  235. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    Very, very sorry to hear about Todd Drew. Seemed like a very nice guy and was a great Yankee fan.

    My deepest condolences to his family and friends.

  236. David January 15th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    So Randy how many innings do you expect Pettitte to pitch. 200? Hughes can certainly take 150 of those innings. Another 50 from both Aceves and Kennedy and we’re just fine. Young players develop. Roy Halliday had a horrible year as a youngster. Now he’s one of the best pitchers in the game. With our front 3 there is no reason not to allow a young guy like Hughes develop.

  237. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Wave: I agree. I’ve been ripped off by plumbers, electricians and auto mechanics. But lawyers have been vilified forever, so I went to law school knowing that my chosen profession was not a popular one. Unless, like I said, someone’s daughter gets arrested for DWI or someone’s grandmother falls on a slippery floor in Shoprite or someone is subject to sexual harassment at work. Then, we’re not so bad. :)

  238. BD January 15th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    “how do you know that the rest of the staff wouldn’t have been even better? i think they would have.”

    (a) That’s speculation. (b) Without going through the records of each pitcher, it seems to me most of them pitched about as well last year as their career numbers would suggest, if not better. I just don’t see the evidence of anyone really pitching poorly where you could look at it and say, “it’s because of all the short outings from Hughes and kennedy.” Even Pettitte, as I argued above, pitched pretty close to his career marks when you get inside the numbers.

  239. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    Wave Your Hat
    January 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
    Hey, GB7, there’s bad plumbers, too. Not sure I get your point. “Getting rid of the undesirables” has kind of a bad history…

    ————————————————————

    I’m not going to get into that anymore than I have. The remarks were aimed at the hypocritical rants of holier than thou posters.

  240. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 15th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    SJ: I was emailed about an hour ago about Todd Drew…

    I’m heartbroken.

    He’s one of the nicest people I’ve ever had the honor of knowing…

    I’ve been around death my entire life and this is the first time I’ve actually felt like I’ve lost something, only it’s not just me, it’s the world that’s lost something.

  241. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    GB: what?

  242. Tom January 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Rest in Peace, Todd.

  243. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Trisha,

    I don’t think the legal situation facing Pettitte has had much to do with the Yankees thinking with him for most of the winter.

    That is, up until the last day or two.

    I’m sure, take that back, I KNOW of people within the organization who would rather eat glass than be dragged back into the whole PED discussion again.

    It could very well by the straw that breaks the camels back in terms of the Yankees waiting on Pettitte.

    It wouldn’t shock me if they took the attitude of, “perhaps its a good thing he turned us (the Yankees) down. We don’t need to be dragged into this stuff again”.

    They could also say, “the hell with it, let’s sign him”. With the Yankees, you never know which opinion prevails in things like this.

    I know though that there is a faction within the organization that no matter how they like Andy (and they do), they don’t want to see the Yankees embroiled in this stuff for another season.

    There is so much positive going on with the franchise. New stadium, new players, exciting season upcoming, they don’t want nor need the taint of PED use to impact another season.

  244. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    wang could be throw a huge number of innings if he were allowed to throw more sinkers. encouraging him to throw a higher percentage of other pitches creates more swing and misses and increases his pitch count and gets him out of games sooner ( i acknowledge it also creates some games when he is absolutely unhittable when he has it all going ).

    his era may go up a bit if he went with more sinkers like he did originally, but i think he’d be able to throw 220 innings a year with no problem. with the new rotation, it might be better to steer wang to throwing the maximum amount of innings with an increased use of the sinker.

  245. gayle January 15th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    I have to say I am so over the Andy Pettite discussion. Andy seems to be this year’s AROD in that every time his name gets mentioned on a blog post it sets off a firestorm of comments both pro and con about him.

    I for one am tired of it and until he either signs with the Yankees, retires or signs with another team nothing will change.

    if Andy Pettite had so much leverage how come he isn’t using it to make the Yankees increase their offer. Or wasn’t using his leverage to have another team make ANY kind of offer.

    To me the biggest mistake Andy and his agents made was not taking a 2 year deal LAST year when the Yankees were more than willing to give it to him. He would not be in this position today.

    Also he took all of his leverage away by his public comments about only pitching one year and only pitching for the Yankees. It is hard for an agent to go up against anyone when the person you are negotiating has made not one, not two but multiple public comments that pretty much take away your bargaining position.

  246. Doreen January 15th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Bob(The Original) -

    Thank you for passing that sad new along. I will miss Todd’s writings. I only knew him through his blog and through this site, but I truly feel a loss in his passing. I didn’t realize how young he was. Shoot.

  247. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    “Maybe it was the fact that he didn’t have his PEDs anymore.”

    There seems to be a generally held misperception on this board that HGH has a beneficial effect on baseball performance.

    That is not true. There is no proof, or even any decent evidence, that HGH taken by an adult who is not severely growth hormone deficient does anything at all.

    Supplemental synthetic HGH is very important to pre-teens and teens who have been diagnosed as growth hormone deficient. It can help those children attain full stature, improve their self esteem and help them live normal lives.

    Taken by pre-teens or teens who are not grownth hormone deficient, HGH can have a contradictory result. It can actually result in such a child ending up shorter than the child otherwise would.

    This is why I get very irritated with people making such a fuss over HGH. It gives young people the idea that it is magic, that it will help them be a better athlete, and this is not true. It can hurt them badly.

    I think it is safe to assume an adult professional ballplayer is not severely growth hormone deficient. So, if an adult ballplayer takes HGH, while he may be “cheating”, he is not gaining any advantage.

    It’s like George Brett and the pine tar bat. The extra pine tar broke the rules, but it did not allow Brett to hit the home run.

    Throwing a spitball, or corking a bat, is a much more effective means of cheating, and has been pretty common over the years, but no one gets bent out of shape about it.

    HGH is just all twisted up with other things, and people have been too affected by propaganda with respect to it.

    Kids whose parents think they are growth hormone deficient should be tested for a deficiency. Kids who are not growth hormone deficient should not be seduced by all this malarkey about HGH into wanting to use it.

  248. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    “Andy not only doesn’t have “enormous” leverage, but, absent a competing offer, he has no leverage.

    No amount of babble on a blog is going to change that simple fact.”

    And no amount of babble from SJ44 can turn a faulty conclusion into a fact.

  249. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    SJ I would agree with that entirely. So I am now wondering what effect this latest Clemens news might have on further negotiations. It’s sure not an easy decision for the Yanks no matter what direction they take it in.

    Or maybe it is?

  250. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    randy l -

    “Sorry, but that’s complete monkey-toss material.”
    This statement attacks your argument.

    “maybe you have to be smarter than a stat monkey to understand this.”
    This statement attacks the person making the argument.

    HUUUUUUUUUUGE difference my man. Please don’t make them out to be the same thing.

    On your other note, Hernandez’s 13-11 record just goes to show you that wins are mostly meaningless when evaluating a pitcher.

  251. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    ellen
    January 15th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
    GB: what?

    ————————————————————

    I was referring to the hypocritical attitude and remarks about whatever Pettitte may or may not have done from the “lunatic fringe”.

  252. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Wow, very very sad news about Todd Drew. He was a great writer who I enjoyed reading very much. I’m definitely going to miss his perspective on things. My condolences to his family and friends.

  253. trisha - New York Yankees - 2009 World Series Champions January 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    I didn’t know Todd but he was one of us, and from what I am reading, a really great one of us. It really helps put all of this into perspective doesn’t it?

    Rest in peace Todd and may you enjoy your beloved Yankees from your beautiful new vantage point.

    :(

  254. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    “I’m not going to get into that anymore than I have. The remarks were aimed at the hypocritical rants of holier than thou posters.”

    Sorry, GB7. Guess I didn’t read all your previous posts carefully enough. I thought you were talking about lawyers.

  255. BD January 15th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    As I see it, once you get beyond Pettitte and into that next tier, you really are taking a step down in quality, possibly a big step because Andy could easily have another GOOD year in him. That’s when you have to ask, is it really worth it to try go with just whatever innings-eater happens to be available on the cheap, or are there better ways to improve the club? Hughes has tremendous upside and it costs nothing ($) to run him out there. If he tanks it or if another pitcher goes down, you still have the possibility of making a deal to add an arm. With the staff they have, plus the lineup, it seems unlikely they are going to get buried in the standings anytime soon. So there is an opportunity to maybe take it a step at a time and see what happens.

  256. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    “Without going through the records of each pitcher, it seems to me most of them pitched about as well last year as their career numbers would suggest, if not better. I just don’t see the evidence of anyone really pitching poorly”

    bd-

    we’ve probably taken this as far as we can. you get my point. you just disagree, i get your point, and i disagree.

    but if you are statistically adept, why not find a way to measure the negative effect in runs that is caused on the rest of the staff when a starting pitcher consistently leaves the game early?

    because it happens. measure it and you’ll make a name for yourself.

  257. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Wave,

    HGH quickens the healing process which, in effect, is a performance enhancer. It gets somebody back on the field faster. Which, is an advantage against those who aren’t using it.

    Don’t get me wrong. I can’t think of a story more overplayed than steroids/HGH use in baseball.

    Football, which has ramapant PED/HGH use, goes unscathed everytime a guy gets caught.

    Cheating is cheating. The ACTION, not the sport, should determined it. Unfortunately for baseball, the national media seems very forgiving of football players who use PED’s.

    Rodney Harrison of the Patriots got nailed for HGH use last year and nobody said a word about it. A baseball player gets nailed? Folks want to indict him. I have never understood the double standard.

    Make no mistake though, HGH helps athletes. If it didn’t, they wouldn’t use it.

    I’ve been in the sports business for over 27 years. No industry, not even lawyers (of which I am one), looks to seek every possible advantage if available to them as athletes.

    Its just the nature of the beast.

    If this stuff didn’t have a benefit, these guys wouldn’t be using it.

  258. gayle January 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Wave my only question as stated above if you think Andy has so much leverage please tell me why he hasn’t used it. We are less than a month from pitchers and catchers reporting. You would think that he would have wanted this to be resolved a long time ago and in fact if I recall correctly he stated that he didn’t want this year to be like last year in terms of making a decision at the end.

    Is he waiting until we are a week away before using his so called leverage??

  259. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    ‘Gardner has range, so move him to shortstop, Jeter to DH and Matsui can be traded to SF for Zito. Fianlly, the rotation’s set!’

    Get off the drugs Stephen ! :lol:

    ‘John Smoltz told Dan Patrick that the Yankees and Dodgers also courted him.

    The Phillies have “kept tabs” on Cordero and Eric Milton.’

    Secretcy in the Yankees mgmt. has Cashman finally gotten 100 % control ?

  260. back bench January 15th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    FWIW, yesterday on MLB on XM during a discussion about the Mets’ options, AP’s name came up and someone asked “Why not?”

    One of the announcers blurted out that AP has “an arthritic condition in his shoulder.” He then quickly changed the topic. Is this correct?

    If that is part of the buzz surrounding AP, that could reinforce some of the earlier arguments. Arthritis doesn’t get any better, believe me.

  261. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    “HGH quickens the healing process which, in effect, is a performance enhancer. It gets somebody back on the field faster. Which, is an advantage against those who aren’t using it.”

    A lot of people, especially athletes, believe this, but there is no medical proof of this that I am aware of. There is anecdotal evidence, but the medical evidence is not conclusory.

  262. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    Wave Your Hat
    January 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
    “Maybe it was the fact that he didn’t have his PEDs anymore.”

    There seems to be a generally held misperception on this board that HGH has a beneficial effect on baseball performance.

    That is not true. There is no proof, or even any decent evidence, that HGH taken by an adult who is not severely growth hormone deficient does anything at all.

    ————————————————————

    Given the controversy surrounding stem-cell research, I wonder how long it will take for the hue and cry to start about Saito’s stem-cell injections. There hardly seems to be any difference.

  263. 86w183 January 15th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    Well said Gayle!

  264. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Wave,

    Unfortunately for you, its not a faulty premise.

    Why don’t you do the following……list for me every team in baseball right now that has 10-12 million available dollars for Andy Pettitte.

    If you do, you will understand what I’m trying to communicate here.

    You aren’t in the sports business. You don’t understand baseball budgets, how they work, and how agents gain leverage. If you did, you would see just how tenuous Andy’s position is here.

    One way of seeing it though is to look at every team right now and list which one’s you think have 10-12 million available dollars to sign him.

    If you take a few minutes to do it and you will see just how limited his options are.

  265. The Monarch January 15th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    I don’t know if it’s fair to say the “populace” has turned against Pettitte. I bet a poll would indicate that most of us what him to return.

    I wrote a week or two ago that I thought it had become a pride and ego issue with Pettitte. After all he had done for the team (in his view) while should accept a $6M paycut when they’re spending to bring in CC and AJ.

    That said, I also wonder that after all the criticism for the Yanks’ audacity to reinvest their revenues in their product, if management is waiting for the flurry of signings that are bound to happen in the next couple of weeks to quietly offer a modest increase to Pettitte and close the deal. That way, it may get lost in the flurry of other activity.

    Then again, maybe not. :)

  266. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    gayle,

    Unlike some on this blog I claim no special knowledge of behind the scenes going on. But the notion that Andy has no leverage because the Yanks have not signed him is a conclusion people are drawing from the facts they want to look at, not all the facts.

    You could equally conclude that he does have leverage because the Yanks have not signed another pitcher to replace him. To me, this indicates he does have leverage, and I believe he has a lot because of reasons I gave above.

    This is the way negotiations go. One side says I won’t give you a penny more than X, and if you don’t act now I’ll give you less than X. The other side says you need me and I know it and you’ll come around.

    I don’t claim I know what’s happening. But if you look at all the facts, and not just some, I think you’ll find things aren’t just black and white.

  267. Brian January 15th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Re: Andy Pettitte: $10MM per year for the role he will fill, specifically, “5th starter” is more than enough. The market for that is proabbly about $4MM per year. The Yankees are likely not, and should not, pay $16MM p/y for a 5th starter.

    Sign someone else off the scrap heap for a hell of alot less than $16MM. Randy Wolf maybe. Even if its a 2-3 year deal, at a reasonable market price per year. Come July when Hughes is ready, trade Wolf, who should have value, especially with a “market contract” and get something of value back, even draft picks. Problem solved.

  268. helno51 January 15th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    To Ham Fighters – Im going to assume you cant read either because if you read petes title is referred to “emailers”, not just one emailer. Second he refers to a “general tone” of emails over the past 2 days. Third, I hope you didnt think that the “email” he posted was real? it was to be used as an example. So pete isnt just insulting the writer of 1 email, he is calling all people who have that opinion “insane” while he himself ignores some important facts and you either cant read or just read selectively.

  269. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    I will gladly admit that my knowledge of HGH would fit quite comfortably in a thimble. I’m hoping that there are folks here who can explain this a bit.

    First, IIRC, Andy said that he used HGH to recover from an injury so that he could get back on the field quicker. Now, that doesn’t mean that it actually works in that way, just that that’s why he said he used it. If it does work in that way, it sure seems like an advantage to me.

    Second, what is MLB’s position on HGH? Is it a banned substance? If not, why did Pettitte need to explain why he used it?

    Finally, what if there is no concrete evidence that it helps a player heal faster – but he thinks it does? Does taking it give him a psychological edge, because he believes he’s getting a benefit from it?

  270. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    GB,

    Saito had to acquire a waiver from MLB to be able to have that experimental treatment.

    Players can receive waivers from MLB for legitimate medical reasons in certain situations. That would allow them to use certain drugs that could turn up on the list of banned substances.

    What’s interesting is, the new “drug of choice” seems to be ADD medication. Mainly, because the list of waivers for medication use to treat ADD has increased about 150% in MLB the past two years.

    The belief from some is that these ADD drugs are the new “greenies”. They serve the same purpose for players. I don’t know if that’s the case but, that’s the scuttlebutt.

  271. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    “One way of seeing it though is to look at every team right now and list which one’s you think have 10-12 million available dollars to sign him.”

    I don’t think it is possible for either you or I to do this. So I don’t think you can back into the answer that way.

  272. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    ( “Sorry, but that’s complete monkey-toss material.”
    This statement attacks your argument. )

    rodg12-

    you may be right rodg that there’s no implication that i’m a monkey-toss material kind of person in that statement, but i with my limited intellectual and emotional IQ took it that way.

    if i say that your argument about something is, for example , racist, am i not calling you a racist. if i say your argument is elitist, am i not accusing you of being an elitist. if i say your argument is unpatriotic, am i not saying that you are unpatriotic?

    just asking.

  273. The Monarch January 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Oh my…just read about Todd Drew. Never met him, but I read his stuff. So sad.

    To those who know him, his family and friends, you should know that there’s many of us out here in the outposts of the web who will miss him. RIP.

  274. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Ellen,

    At the time Andy used HGH, it was not on the list of banned substances in MLB. That was the reason why he felt he wasn’t cheating.

    HGH is now on the list of banned substances in MLB.

    The catch? There is no testing for HGH in baseball because a reliable test for HGH has yet to be developed.

  275. 86w183 January 15th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    HGH promotes growth… its the Human GROWTH hormone. Steroids are what speed recovery and healing. That’s why cortisone (a setroid) is used. They also have pain killing properties.

    We must continue to remind folks that people have been using performance enhancers since the first caveman took extra mammoth blubber to make his cave warmer.

    Steroids, HGH, Andro, Creatin, Amphetemines, Caffine Loaded vegerages, Blood Doping and on and on it goes. Nothing will ever stop the effort to find an edge in any competitive endeavor. As SJ wrote, it’s just the way it is.

    By the way, pine tar IS used to harden wood. It makes the bat stronger, though that’s not why the rule was in effect at the time.

    Great points about the difference in public reaction to baseball drug users as opposed to others. I would like to see a whole less sanctimony from the national media.. You can argue Sosa and McGuire and Palmeiro are not Hall worthy because their power stats are tainted. That same argument really doesn’t work against Clemens and Bonds.

  276. David January 15th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    Why do we take Andy at his word when he says he only used HGH those two times. We wouldn’t do so with any other player.

  277. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    hellno, im sorry your feelings were hurt by pete’s comments.

    btw, how many emails did u send him?

  278. Kei Igawa's Sunglasses January 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Andy Pettitte already had his chance with the 10 mil offer. Let the sneak walk. I was on the Andy bandwagon for a long time until the stuff he pulled last year. Good thing the Yanks pulled the 10 mil offer off the table. Derek Lowe had a solid season last year which warrants his cash. You can’t compare that with Andy. Andy wants to get paid because of who he was with the Yankees.

    Go inject HGH and play somewhere else.

  279. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Sure you can Wave. Its not difficult.

    All you have to do is look at the pitching staffs and payroll #’s of every team in the game. Compare their payroll numbers from last year, and see where Andy could fit in on those teams.

    You can reasonable assume a 10% payroll gain (on average) from most teams.

    Its easy to do and I understand why you wouldn’t do it because it would debunk many of your arguments on this issue.

    For him to be able to get what you think he should get, he has to have a role on a team and that team has to have the money (and the desire) to pay him.

    Looking at every roster can give you an idea of where he has reasonable options (if any) to get what he is looking for.

  280. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    SJ44
    January 15th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
    GB,

    Saito had to acquire a waiver from MLB to be able to have that experimental treatment.

    Players can receive waivers from MLB for legitimate medical reasons in certain situations. That would allow them to use certain drugs that could turn up on the list of banned substances.

    What’s interesting is, the new “drug of choice” seems to be ADD medication. Mainly, because the list of waivers for medication use to treat ADD has increased about 150% in MLB the past two years.

    The belief from some is that these ADD drugs are the new “greenies”. They serve the same purpose for players. I don’t know if that’s the case but, that’s the scuttlebutt.

    ————————————————————

    Yeah, I’ve been reading about the ADD medication and almost total lack of real control over it. As far as the waiver on stem-cell injections, there were no such requirements in 2002 or 2004 for HGH injections. That’s like passing a law and then going back to the past and convicting/punishing someone for doing what was legal befre the new law.

  281. Phil January 15th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    The Yanks can afford to keep being patient with Andy. People seem eager to want it done now, but there’s no reason it has to be done now.

  282. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    randy l -

    Not necessarily, but I do see your point. I just get tired of people personally attacking others during arguments. Especially about stats. I’ve seen it too many times now. Stat geek, momma’s basement dweller, no understanding of the game, etc. I just see it too much.

  283. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    i watched most of ken burn’s baseball last night and one thing really struck me, they said walter johnson pitched 3 complete game shutouts of the yankees in 4 days! huh!

    so i was looking at pics of hilltop park on wiki and found this:
    “One of the more impressive pitching performances of all time took place at the Hilltop. On September 4, 1908, 20 year-old Walter Johnson of the Washington Senators/Nationals shut out the Highlanders 3-0 with a five-hitter. The next day, Johnson again blanked the Yankees, 6-0, on a three-hitter. The city’s “blue law” prevented a game on Sunday. On Monday, September 7, Senators manager Joe Cantillon again gave Johnson the ball and he improved again, this time hurling a two-hit, 4-0 victory over the Hilltoppers, his third shutout in the space of four days.”

    !

  284. gayle January 15th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    Wave maybe they haven’t signed another pitcher to replace him because they are going to use one of the internal options. Albeit perhaps not the best option it is an option and one the team might feel like is what they can do at this point in time.

  285. BBB January 15th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Great points, Pete. I may not be a big fan of the way Andy is handling these negotiations, but I am in no way prepared to turn on him.

    Also, a lot of people seemed to feel he rejected the $10MM offer because he saw how much they were giving an injury prone Burnett and felt slighted as he’s been much healthier and also more willing to pitch hurt than AJ is rumored to be. But thinking about it, I think maybe Andy is looking at the overly generous salaries paid to Posada and Mo (though I think Mo is worth every penny) last offseason and thinking, ok, these guys are past their primes too (or at least Jorge is) and the Yankees still paid handsomely to keep them, so why not me?

    And if you look at it from that angle, he kind of does have a point. I mean, it’s still faulty logic…2 wrongs dont make a right and all that good stuff…but I can certainly see where he’s coming from.

  286. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    big train was 20 and had made his big-league debut one year and one month earler.

  287. dave January 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    perhaps,pettitte should not have tried to pitch through injury. Its not exactly like he was helping the team or himself all that much.We do need him back however and we might as well offer him 12.

  288. BBB January 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    Very sad to hear about Todd Drew, may he rest in peace. I never e-spoke with him, but I remember reading some of his comments here as well as his blog, which is excellent, one of the best. Heaven gained a great Yankee fan today.

  289. jennifer January 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/01.....150296.htm

  290. S.o.S. January 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    So i was watching mlbtv yesterday and they had the 86 playoffs on. I have to admit that i was an Angels fan till that year. The Donnie Moore blown save was too crushing for a kid to get over. Watching it last night i can understand why i would jump ship. To top that off was the choke job performed in the next 2 games. As much as i was hurt, im sure the Sox blowing the Series made it look amature.

    My question is what was the most crushing playoff loss you could remember?

    86 Sox/Mets
    86 angels/sox
    01 yanks/backs broken bat
    04 yanks/sox stolen base
    ???

  291. BBB January 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    “dave
    January 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
    perhaps,pettitte should not have tried to pitch through injury. Its not exactly like he was helping the team or himself all that much.”

    That makes sense in theory, but at that juncture of the year, who else were the Yankees going to throw out there to replace him, Kei Igawa?

    I can’t remember exactly when Andy got hurt last season (which makes sense since we the fans didn’t know about it until long after – does anyone know when it was tho?) but I’m sure it was after guys like Rasner, Giese and Ponson were already staples of the rotation…and after Wang went down and maybe even Joba too. The Yankees still weren’t out of the playoff race at that time, but replacing Andy with Igawa would have been the nail in the coffin.

    Andy was trying to help his team and I respect that, but if he is trying to use that as leverage now, I don’t really respect THAT.

  292. Tarheelyank January 15th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    SJ
    It only takes two to tango. Mets

  293. BBB January 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Jennifer: LMAO!!! Jebus, all that for a bagel? He does kinda look like him though. But what a wack job, hopefully he’ll be watching Joba pitch in 09 from a padded room!!

  294. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    “Its easy to do and I understand why you wouldn’t do it because it would debunk many of your arguments on this issue.”

    It is not easy to do because teams have a great deal of revenue they can choose or not choose to apply to payroll. You cannot simply extrapolate.

    I know that’s attractive to you because it fits your argument. But that’s what you have, an argument. You keep asserting it as fact and it is nothing but an argument.

  295. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    if the ollie (boras) negotiations drag out, it is in both the met’s and andy pettitte’s interest to ‘talk’ thats why i think we’ll be hearing alot about that in the next few days.

  296. BBB January 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    Also, I havent read all the posts about the ADD stuff so sorry if this has been mentioned and I missed it, but is it Ritalin that the players are getting waivers to take? Half of them probably snort it and it is JUST like speed once you hit adulthood…just recently read a scary memoir of a woman who was addicted to it. MLB should tighten their rules on this one before they have to start paying for rehab stays for the players!

  297. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    Ham: you gotta think the Andy talk will happen soon. The pre-ST window is rapidly closing, regardless of where he is going to end up.

  298. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 15th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    I wrote about baseball and ADHD here:

    http://www.puristbleedspinstri.....eball.html

    Having been diagnosed ADHD myself at a young age, I have to say, it’s not fun. Especially when the teachers embarass you in front of the class..

  299. kd January 15th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    i get the feeling that the yankees have moved on. they might try a youngster in the 5th spot for the first quarter of the season, save a little financial flexibility, and see if teams are willing to dump players if the economy worsens. The reality is that fewer people likely will go to games. A team that maxes out payroll in January may have to jetison a high priced player, and we all know this is where the Yankees have their biggest advantage, dollars.

  300. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    for all you nick johnson fans out there:

    http://voices.washingtonpost.c.....on_tr.html

  301. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    The Mets are going to sign Oliver Perez. Omar will get that deal done. So, its unlikely the Mets are in on Pettitte.

    Let’s look at the teams and see what’s out there for him:

    Let’s eliminate teams that have no money right out of the gate:

    Minnesota, Oakland, KC, Seattle, Tampa, Toronto, Arizona, Cincinnati, Colorado, Florida, Pittsburgh, and San Diego.

    Let’s look at teams that have money but he won’t consider playing for: Washington and Milwaukee.

    Let’s look at teams that have either already spent their money or have been told by their owners there is no money to add expensive free agents to their rotation: Cubs, Cleveland, Detroit, Boston, Atlanta, Baltimore, White Sox, Phillies and San Francisco.

    What’s left? The Angels. They have money but, have shown no interest in Pettitte. The Dodgers are in the same spot as the Angels. It seems they are saving their big money for Manny and are talking to Garland and Randy Wolf.

    Houston? Ed Wade has already said Pettitte is not in their plans.

    Mets? If Oliver Perez isn’t signed, perhaps he’s an option. Although, the smart money says they will sign Perez.

    St. Louis? This would probably be a good choice for him. However, its doubtful they will offer 10 million a season. They signed Kyle Lohse last year for 7 million, then parlayed that into a multi-year 44+ million dollar deal. Not sure if they will look to do the same for Pettitte.

    Texas? They are talking to Ben Sheets. No mention of any interest in Pettitte. Plus, would he want to play for the Rangers? If he does, I doubt they offer him 10+ million to do so.

    When look around the league, there isn’t a fit for him.

    His best chance to get more money is if the Mets whiff on Perez and feel they have to overpay for somebody for one year.

    Absent that, I don’t see where his market is right now.

  302. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    all i suggested is that rumors about andy and the mets talking are likely in the next few days.

  303. YankeeRay January 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    My question is what was the most crushing playoff loss you could remember?

    86 Sox/Mets
    86 angels/sox
    01 yanks/backs broken bat
    04 yanks/sox stolen base
    ???

    —–

    Tough call. Big question, how many Mets haters out there wanted them to lose to teh hated sox in 86? I had a hard time rooting for the lets go’s that year as that was an obnoxious fan base to me.
    The 01 Yanks was tough but when you look at it we really only had a lead for about 3 innings in that whole series. From game 5 ending to Pettite giving it right back in game 6 and then for 1 inning in game 7 if I remember right, a little cloudy on that whole thing still.
    04 could be the toughest considering who and how we lost to.
    As a sox fan I would imagine 86 loss would be toughest though Bucky homer game would have to rank right up there.

  304. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Wave,

    Which teams are applying additional revenues to their payroll in this economic climate? Geez, you still have over 100 guys without jobs.

    In fact, teams are losing money because sponsors aren’t renewing in many markets. Also, especially in cities like Cleveland, Detroit, Arizona, and Cincinnati, season ticket renewals are way down.

    If anything, they are cutting back even more than previously thought.

    Don’t you think these teams would be applying those dollars toward payroll now? Its less than a month out to ST.

    That’s a bogus argument. Its clear they aren’t applying additional funds to payroll or there wouldn’t be so many guys out of work.

    Even the Yankees aren’t adding payroll. Their payroll is actually lower than last year.

    If the Yankees aren’t adding it, nobody is adding it to any appreciable degree.

    At least not to the degree of signing a 37 year old pitcher to a 10+ million dollar per year contract.

  305. BD January 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    Looking at Randy Wolf’s numbers, he looks like a pretty reasonable back-up plan to Pettitte. Would he really command a muli-year deal in this market?

  306. AROD fan January 15th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    It’s not likely, but I am starting to wonder how fans would react if Jeter’s contract were to take an extra couple days to negotiate in 2011. Jeter has never said anything controversial, so theoretically he could have some credibility with the fans, but we now know after Pettitte and Manny that fans have absolutely no loyalty to the players and believe with all their heart and soul in everything management says (even, and esp, when they donate hard earned tax dollars to the stadium only to be priced out).

    I appreciate the support for Pettitte, but I guess I’m still confused about the unanimous criticism of Manny from the sports writing establishment. Is it an unwritten rule of sports writing that we readers don’t know about? MLB isn’t even trying to hide collusion anymore and yet every sports writer is chanting the “its the economy, stupid” excuse. While it appears all sports writers agree that the economy is a good excuse for these billionaires to exploit their players, fans, and taxpayers, I believe there are many fans like me who do not agree.

    It’s nice that in this one case this one “true Yankee” gets a pass, but if PeteAbe is so concerned about fixing his “insane” readers, then he should really start by looking at his own blog. There are many articles here that teach readers that players have absolutely no rights once they sign a contract with the almighty MLB, and that fans should channel all of their anger against a player who fails to publicly express deference to management at every opportunity.

    I would bet that many readers of this blog wish players would deal directly with mlb and forego all professional representation.

    People (usually) don’t just wake up in the morning and ask Andy Pettitte to drop dead. Those readers aren’t that creative.

  307. Ham Fighters January 15th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    bd i heard on xm yesterday (steiner) that byrd’s is still seeking for a 3yr contract.

  308. S.o.S. January 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    Upton might miss the first few weeks of the season. Good year to start off fast for a change.

  309. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Anybody know if the Andruw Jones release has become official??? I know if was rumored to go down today, has it?

  310. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    AROD fan: I can’t speak for sportswriters, but someone once said that fans cheer for the laundry when it comes to their favorite teams. And I think it is largely true. When I started to follow the Yankees, they had players named Chambliss and Munson. Later they had Mattingly and Cerrone and Girardi and Tino. Now they have players named Teixera and Posada. Don’t most people root for the team? Doesn’t make us fans heartless, but players really do come and go. The laundry stays the same.

  311. Ninja Burglar January 15th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    Part of the reason the Yankees payroll will be lower this season is how they’ve structured Sabathia and Tex’s deals.

    Sabathia gets $23M per year, but in 2009 $9M of that is being paid as a bonus and his salary is actually $14M. So on the books, the payroll will look $9M lower, even though CC is getting his $23M this season.

    Tex is similar in that he’s basically earning $22.5 per year, but his 2009 and 2010 salaries are $20M with the total $5M difference being paid this season as a bonus.

    So by using bonuses to offset the salary in the early years of these deals, the Yanks look $11.5M lower in 2009 and $2.5M lower in 2010 because of the deal structure.

  312. YankeeRay January 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    rodg12
    January 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
    Anybody know if the Andruw Jones release has become official??? I know if was rumored to go down today, has it?

    —–

    Hot stove was pumping him up last night. He looked slimmer when working out with Chipper. They pointed to his HR and RBI production from 05-07. He could be a steal at 400k per but his average in those years ws 260ish.
    Not a high risk here but I don’t think he fits with us.

  313. back bench January 15th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Solena Roberts of SI opined that the NYY revenue situation for this season is a lot less encouraging than they thought just a few months ago. This also would reinforce what SJ is saying.

  314. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    “I just get tired of people personally attacking others during arguments. Especially about stats.”
    rodg 12-

    my position is that baseball is such a complex game that there is room for a lot of different ways of understanding it. my natural position is from the experience side of things because of my baseball life experiences.

    if i knew more statistically, i would probably use statistical analysis more. i don’t think however, i’m going to spend years studying statistics at this point in my life to verify what i already know from experience, but i’m open to new statistical things that are too obvious to ignore

    the ironical thing is that even as a kid in the 50′s, i knew my on base percentage( yes we kept stats ). i always knew that while mantle hit .300 that he walked more than just about anyone. i like to think that i approached the game from a thinking perspective on the field.

    and i do agree that sticking to the argument is the best way to go despite the temptation to do otherwise. you know who can really tick me off though? it’s that green beret 7 guy and he’s not even a stat guy.lol.

  315. G. Love January 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    First off, I really want Andy back. I think he’s the perfect fit for the 4 hole and this team. I value his contributions and the fact that the guy can pitch in NY under the big lights and give his all.

    However, I think at this point, if Andy were to begrudgingly accept the 10 million, I might not want him back. I think he’s going to be pissed about this contract all season and it might affect his play.

    If he thinks he got shafted and he’s going to be pissed that he’s not seeing AJ/Lowe dollars, it could affect his play.

    He’s already a very sensitive ballplayer/human being. I can’t imagine what the supposed “shame” of taking the 10 million could cause in him.

    I think if the Yanks don’t offer more than 10 million he’ll retire.

    I think if they offer 11 million or more, he’ll come back.

  316. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    G Love: that’s an interesting perspective. I hadn’t thought of that before. I was more thinking that he’s likely to be distracted by the grand jury stuff, but the $$ issues could be a distraction to him, also.

  317. Gus G. January 15th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    SJ-

    Astros are done adding. Make that another team that is definately now not in on Pettitte… even at a nickel.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....ld-be.html

  318. Wangawa January 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    I would sign Pettitte in a heartbeat… The guy gives you 200 innings every year. I like Hughes, Aceves, and Coke, but they are all unproven and I don’t even know if they’d be able to last 5 innings on a consistent basis.

  319. Jay Hirsch January 15th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    Get off your high horse. We know you love Andy. They made him a generous offer and he refused! Please move on! Your blog is getting repetitive.

  320. rodg12 January 15th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    “it’s that green beret 7 guy and he’s not even a stat guy.lol.”

    I know, right. What is up with that guy ;)

    ‘the ironical thing is that even as a kid in the 50’s, i knew my on base percentage( yes we kept stats ).”

    With a chisel and rock tablet right? Man, that must have take forever, chiseling in each AB. (Sorry, couldn’t resist)

    I’m definitely more of a stats guy. But, I also know there are ‘more than one way to skin a cat’ so to speak. And, there are some things the stats don’t tell. One area I’ve found that should get more play is the concept of productive outs. Moving a runner to third on a ground ball or fly ball to the right side, driving in a runner on third with a ground ball up the middle, that sort of thing.

  321. ANSKY January 15th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    Is the monkey down in Tampa a Boras client too?

  322. David January 15th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    Oh no. They are unproven. We shouldn’t have played Pettitte and Jeter in 96. They were unproven. Rivera shouldn’t have gotten a shot in 96 either. He was unproven.

  323. Russell NY January 15th, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    “Sabathia gets $23M per year, but in 2009 $9M of that is being paid as a bonus and his salary is actually $14M. So on the books, the payroll will look $9M lower, even though CC is getting his $23M this season.”

    Ninja, I think the bonus counts as salary this year.

  324. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    SJ44-

    Isn’t it the case that last year, approximately 50% of revenue was devoted to player salaries in baseball, as opposed to over 60% in basketball and football?

    That means that, even if revenue declines across the board, there’s plenty of cash to be devoted to payroll if the teams so choose.

    IMO, you simply can’t go team by team and say this team can get a pitcher, this team can’t IMO, it’s an impossible errand. You don’t have access to team books, and even if you did you can’t know their intentions.

    Also, you haven’t ever addressed my point that Andy’s professed desire to play in NY has reduced the inclination of teams to make an offer. I don’t know, you don’t know how the market would react were he to change that stance.

    You haven’t addressed my points about leverage, either. Do you agree or disagree with the various advantages Andy would bring to the Yanks? Neither you nor I know whether Andy would retire rather than play for the Yanks for $10MM. Without knowing that, you can’t assess the negotiations.

    I think Andy is worth more than 66% of Lowe, especially on a one-year deal. You say without an offer, he’s not.

    OK, maybe, that begs the previous arguments, but do you really believe, after the Lowe signing, if Andy sits down with Cashman and says I’ll come down from $16M but you have to come up from $10M, and points to the Lowe contract, Cashman is going to say “F you, show me the deal or eat dirt?” I don’t think so. In my experience, people negotiate at that point.

    Look, you may be right, I may be right, I don’t know. But you are being way too absolutist about it and it rubs me the wrong way.

    I don’t care if the Yanks sign Andy for $5M or $15M, its the same to me either way, and you could even convince me they ought to spend the money on a good CF instead.

    But I think Andy would help the Yanks as much or more than any other starting pitcher, and if the Yanks want a starting pitcher they ought to man up and get the deal done with Pettitte.

  325. GreenBeret7 January 15th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    randy l
    January 15th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    you know who can really tick me off though? it’s that green beret 7 guy and he’s not even a stat guy.lol.

    ————————————————————

    LMAO….and to think that there are people on this board that think that I bring no value or substance to this board.

  326. Anthony January 15th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    “While it appears all sports writers agree that the economy is a good excuse for these billionaires to exploit their players, fans, and taxpayers, I believe there are many fans like me who do not agree.”

    Absolutely, AROD fan, I whole-heartedly agree and have been saying the same thing to my friends. The shame about the world today is it’s not just baseball. It’s everywhere that the wealthy are using this excuse to explain why they shouldn’t take any hit to their lifestyle and yet the people who work for them, who can less afford such a hit, should. Not to get too socialist or political here, but I think it’s something baseball and every other industry should be held accountable for by the media, rather than doing what they normally do and saying exactly what the elite wants them to say.

  327. Rishi January 15th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    Mike(San Diego): I know it’s somewhat old news, but I know you point out owners’ greed. How ridiculous was John Henry’s reaction to the Tex signing? He acts as if Boston has no money to compete with the big bad Yankees, while sitting on the cash cow that is Fenway. Do you think he uses $20′s or $100′s to light his cigars?

    Keith Law: (1:59 PM ET ) I don’t know many owners who’d send two executives on their private jet to negotiate with a draft pick. Indeed. It’s time to just stop talking.

  328. BBB January 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    Rebecca: Thanks a lot for the link about ADHD, just read it and commented. One thing I will add here is that regular ed public school teachers REALLY need to get more educated on this matter as it relates to children. My mom teaches special ed and just about all of her students have been diagnosed with ADD or ADD. They are mainstreamed for gym, art, music and some academic classes and she has told me many stories of the kids being embarrassed in those classes, by the teachers, b/c of their problems. It’s a shame that educators can be so ignorant.

    Actually, it’s a shame that MLB can be so ignorant too, and they need to be educated as well if you ask me, since I am convinced that this sudden wave of ADHD in baseball is really an excuse for the players to continue getting all geeked up on speed!

  329. ANSKY January 15th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Some of us have been keeping unofficial off-season score on the Yanks/Sox player dealings, and it looks like we’re winning the off-season. I was definitely keeping track of whether we beat them on a few of the deals – CC, 2nd pitcher (turned out to be AJ) Tex. Good for us.

    We haven’t been watching Tampa as closely, but we should. Basically they’re the same players that went to the WS last year, plus they’ve added Burrell, Price is coming up and Percival is probably healthier than last year. Add to that the fact that their younger players have that experience under their belts now too. So BJ Upton will miss a few games in the beginning of the season, but that shouldn’t be a factor for long.

    Yeah, Boston’s added some names but the names they’ve added are in many ways just names that come with health risks. Plus there’s the unknowns of Ortiz’ & Lowell’s health and whattnahecktheygonnado behind the plate.

    Given that we landed CC, AJ and Tex while Boston didn’t, I’d be more worried about Tampa than Boston as the season approaches.

  330. David January 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Its highly unlikely that Tampa’s bullpen performs as well as last year. A bunch of their guys performed well above career norms.

  331. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Waveyourhat,
    Please just drop your argument. SJ44 just owns you right now. You’re done. At this point you’re just embarrassing yourself and it’s painful to see. Your creditiblity is tanking with every argument.

    SJ44,
    I don’t know who you are, but I went back to the archives from 9/24 last year and your assessment of the upcoming free-agent market was strikingly accurate. Kudos.

    And all this talk about Andy Pettite having no leverage. I happen to know for a fact that he has a 3 year 36 million dollar offer on the table. Anyday, he’ll setter for that offer, yep, anyday now….

  332. saucY January 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    “Rest in peace Todd and may you enjoy your beloved Yankees from your beautiful new vantage point.”

    well said trisha. Todd will be missed :(

  333. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    “and to think that there are people on this board that think that I bring no value or substance to this board.”

    Are you bringing a substance? Is it banned? :)

  334. m January 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    I knew something was bugging me. I said earlier that the Yankees need Pettitte more than he need them. Well, to a very large extent that’s true. Andy doesn’t NEED to pitch. He might want to pitch for the Yankees or not at all. He can always call it a day and take his glove and go home.

    I never said that Andy had more leverage in the negotiations or that he was operating from a position of strength.

  335. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    “Your creditiblity is tanking with every argument. ”

    Well, I was really just talking to the people who can spell…

  336. G. Love January 15th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Jeter, Pettitte, Posada and Mo were all unproven at one point in time.

    But was Mo handed closer fresh from the minor leagues? No. He earned out by being lights out in the pen.

    Did Posada come out of AAA and start at catcher? No. He played caddy to Girardi before getting his shot and earned the starting role.

    Jeter and Pettitte both earned their shots in the spring and continued to earn it by playing well during the season, staying healthy and helping the team win.

    They did not have the ummitigated disaster of a season that Hughes and Kennedy had last season.

    If you’re willing to be the season on Hughes and Kennedy again, you don’t want to win. You just want to cheerlead for minor league players for some odd reason.

    I’m sorry, but for you guys to sit here and compare Hughes to the above Yankee greats is just a disservice to the player to your own intelligence.

    Phil Hughes got handed a rotation spot last year off a 3 inning appearance in a playoff win and did not win a game last season and could not stay healthy for a full season again.

    He’s beyond unproven now. Now he has question marks. Now he has to prove his way back to the Bronx and stay healthy.

    Will he? I hope so. But I cannot imagine that this organization will make the same mistake and hand the kid anything again.

    They want to see him develop since the pitcher he was last season whether he was injured or not was not a major league starting pitcher.

  337. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    Wave,

    I did address your points re: his leverage. You said he had “enormous” leverage and I said he none and outlined why that is the case.

    You talk about me being “absolute” in my opinion on this then state you believe Andy is worth more than 66% of Derek Lowe.

    Based on what? He doesn’t have any offers approaching that number. Not one.

    Teams aren’t seeing Andy Pettitte in that light. They just aren’t. If they were, he would have offers corresponding to the % your have outlined in your argument.

    AJ Burnett got 82.5 million dollars because he had an offer on the table from the Braves for 80 million. That’s how he got his money.

    How can I discuss some of this stuff in absolute terms? I’ve owned minor league teams. I know how budgets are set in baseball. I also represent companies that advertise in MLB. They are all cutting back across the board. Every one of them.

    Geico, GM, Progressive, even some local supermarkets in team markets (always a great source of team revenue) are cutting back their ad dollars by over 25%.

    Again, you don’t understand how teams run their business and you are upset because in trying to explain this to you, you reject it all out of hand.

    NOBODY, not a single team in MLB, is adding significant payroll to their books on January 15.

    Don’t believe me? Watch how it continues to play out.

    Look at free agency thus far. Teams have cut back across the board. That’s why so many guys are out of work.

    Do you really believe they are going to add payroll now, given the fact that every internal economic indicator they receive from their bankers, lenders, and business personnel gets bleaker by the day?

    When times are tough, teams pull back. They are looking to stock their cash reserves, not add payroll. That’s how teams run their business in baseball and that’s what we have seen from numerous teams all winter.

    The Yankees don’t have to “man up” to sign Andy Pettitte. He has no other offers. What exactly is there for them to “man up” about?

    You are asking the Yankees to raise an already high offer to him simply because you want him on the team.

    That’s admirable but, its not happening unless Pettitte has leverage. Regardless of what you think, he has none unless he gets a competitive offer from another team.

    Absent another offer, you won’t see him in pinstripes. Not unless he takes the Yankees offer, if it is even on the table right now.

  338. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    “Well, I was really just talking to the people who can spell…”

    tanking…

  339. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

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  341. m January 15th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    Bartolo Colon re-signs with the Sox!

  342. Rishi January 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Nine active players, who have at least a decade of Major League service, head into the 2009 season having played their entire careers with just one team

    PLAYER TEAM SEASONS
    Chipper Jones ATL 16
    Mariano Rivera NYY 14
    Jorge Posada NYY 14
    Derek Jeter NYY 14
    Todd Helton COL 12
    Roy Halladay TOR 11
    Eric Chavez OAK 11
    Lance Berkman HOU 10
    Vernon Wells TOR 10

  343. David January 15th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Phil Hughes was the Yankees best pitcher during the last month of the 2007 season. He wasn’t handed the spot off of three innings. There is a reason every team who wants to trade with us asks for him. Giving up on a player his age who dominated the minor leagues is just plain silly. He’s proven all he can in the minors. The only way he develops is by pitching in the big leagues. The Yankees have enough in other areas of the rotation and lineup to let him develop. If you don’t have patience you will regret it in years to come. Look at how most pitchers develop. Most are not dominant right away.

  344. ANSKY January 15th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    Rishi –

    I think Henry lights ‘em with 20′s now but he still smokes the ones that are made with 100′s wrapped in with the leafs. That way he can justify a public image of poverty because we only actually see him using the smaller bills.

    Never mind that last month he was rip-roarin’ and ready to give Tex more than a million and a half of the with cigars with the 100′s in them. Of course he’s still got ‘em.

  345. Rishi January 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    ANSKY
    January 15th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
    Rishi –

    I think Henry lights ‘em with 20’s now but he still smokes the ones that are made with 100’s wrapped in with the leafs. That way he can justify a public image of poverty because we only actually see him using the smaller bills.

    Never mind that last month he was rip-roarin’ and ready to give Tex more than a million and a half of the with cigars with the 100’s in them. Of course he’s still got ‘em.
    ____________________________________________________________

    :) Just trying to introduce new topics of conversation, the Pettite stuff is getting a little (ok, a lot) redundant..

  346. randy l January 15th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    “With a chisel and rock tablet right? Man, that must have take forever, chiseling in each AB.”

    rodg12-

    no rodg, we could actually add in our heads back then, unlike my summer college student employees who can’t add 5% sales tax without a calculator. i tell them to take ten % and halve it. they can’t do it. not enough memory in their “computer”.

    i’m so old though that i do remember when the concept of zero was invented. that really helped with the 0-4′s.

    all kidding aside, slide rules were used right through my first years of college. not fun.

    … and as far as gb7 goes. start learning to type with your nose just in case. don’t ask why . just trust me.

  347. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Since all this talk about revenues being scaled back and advertisers pulling back funds…anyone know what’s happening with the naming rights of CITI field? First of all, does CITI even have the money to earn the naming rights? Second, is it ok that they are using government bail out funds and still paying for the rights? Thirdly, does CITI even want the extra publicity? Fourthly, do the choke artist Mets who struggle down the stretch really want their stadium named after a firm that is choking and struggling down the stretch?

  348. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    “NOBODY, not a single team in MLB, is adding significant payroll to their books on January 15.

    Don’t believe me? Watch how it continues to play out.”

    Well, as I’ve said countless times during this endless argument, only time will tell.

  349. Anthony January 15th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    “How can I discuss some of this stuff in absolute terms? I’ve owned minor league teams. I know how budgets are set in baseball. I also represent companies that advertise in MLB. They are all cutting back across the board. Every one of them.”

    Funny, for someone who claims to be such an important guy, you sure spend a whole lot of time posting on a random Yankee blog.

  350. five iron from fenway January 15th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    David – I think some of the issue with Hughes was not the numbers he put up in 2007 but in his overall readiness for the big leagues.
    These are two separate issues. We have seen Joba, Hughes and Kennedy rip through every minor league level (Kei Igawa was the AAA pitcher of the year last year). However, there were many who argued that Hughes was not ready in terms of quality of his secondary pitches.
    I firmly believe that Hughes will improve, and the reports from AZ was that his velocity had returned, his command was there, and his secondary pitches were really developing well. He will need time and have some bumps in the road, but even if he goes to AAA and has worse numbers he wil be more ready because of his overall pitchability.

  351. Tarheelyank January 15th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    SJ

    With all due respect, I agree with this statement.

    “Look, you may be right, I may be right, I don’t know. But you are being way too absolutist about it ”

    If your position is not in the Yankee front office, or don’t have inside information, then your guessing. An educated guess, but a guess nevertheless. My guess is we are missing something important. Something that has “ticked off Andy” as I believe you posted earlier.

  352. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Waveyourhat,
    Anybody can say “only time will tell” watch….I think I know how much Andy Pettite will make in 2008 and where he will sign but only time will tell. See anybody can say that. It’s not an argument. It adds no value to this blog.

  353. yankeefan23 January 15th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Waveyourhat,
    Anybody can say “only time will tell” watch….I think I know how much Andy Pettite will make in 2008 and where he will sign but only time will tell. See anybody can say that. It’s not an argument. It adds no value to this blog.

  354. Wave Your Hat January 15th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Yankeefan23-

    Neither does posting all your comments twice…

  355. David January 15th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Five Iron. There is little doubt that the injuries affected Hughes’ mechanics. This is a guy that had pinpoint control throughout the minors and struggled with his control in the big leagues. He also had one of the best curve balls in baseball before the injuries. Just think back to the game against Texas. His change was very good that day as well. All the reports from winter ball indicate that his mechanics are finally fixed and he’s now finishing off his pitches.

  356. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    23,

    No, I don’t have my own blog.

    GLove,

    I don’t think the Yankees are going to hand Hughes, or any other young pitcher, anything. I think they learned their lesson from last year.

    If need be, they will all compete for the 5th starter spot and the best guy will win. I don’t get the idea any one of them are the leader in the clubhouse for that role.

    I do believe they (in a perfect world) want those guys to start the year in AAA.

    I also think that, whether its Pettitte or someone else, another veteran starter will be signed by the time ST begins.

    I don’t put a lot of stock into the “kids will fight it out” for the 5th spot in the rotation. I place that along with “Bubba Crosby will be our CF” as not believable statements by the Yankees.

    Just as it was with Bubba, I will believe it (the kids will fight it out for the 5th spot) when I see it.

  357. YankeeRay January 15th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    ANSKY
    January 15th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
    Some of us have been keeping unofficial off-season score on the Yanks/Sox player dealings, and it looks like we’re winning the off-season. I was definitely keeping track of whether we beat them on a few of the deals – CC, 2nd pitcher (turned out to be AJ) Tex. Good for us.

    We haven’t been watching Tampa as closely, but we should. Basically they’re the same players that went to the WS last year, plus they’ve added Burrell, Price is coming up and Percival is probably healthier than last year. Add to that the fact that their younger players have that experience under their belts now too. So BJ Upton will miss a few games in the beginning of the season, but that shouldn’t be a factor for long.

    Yeah, Boston’s added some names but the names they’ve added are in many ways just names that come with health risks. Plus there’s the unknowns of Ortiz’ & Lowell’s health and whattnahecktheygonnado behind the plate.

    Given that we landed CC, AJ and Tex while Boston didn’t, I’d be more worried about Tampa than Boston as the season approaches.

    ——

    I agree. The addition of Matt Joyce also makes their RF situation stronger than last year. Burrell improves their DH spot and Price should improve their rotation.
    As with every team, injuries will be a big factor. Last year they had Longoria and Crawford go down for a period of time but still held onto their lead.
    If they stay healthy and with a year of experience under their belt, their youth, speed, pitching and defense will be tough to deal with.

  358. diehard Sox fan January 15th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    It’s good news that Bartolo Colon decided to go back to the Sox.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....;fext=.jsp

  359. BD January 15th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    SJ: Since you seem to have a handle on where the market for starting pitchers is, what would you guess would be the contract length and salary for guys like Randy Wolf, Oliver Perez, Jon Garland, Freddy Garcia, and Paul Byrd once they all sign? Is anyone from this group likely to get a multi-year deal?

  360. pat January 15th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    Silly me, I thought Colon back to the Sox was Red not White. It would have been keeping with their off-season so far.

  361. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    BD: isn’t it amazing that they’re all out there on January 15th?

  362. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    BD,

    I think Perez gets 3 or 4 years from the Mets. They need him, Omar wants him, and Boras has played this well enough (getting the Brewers and Cardinals involved) to get this deal done.

    Paul Byrd has said he wants to come back at mid-season, a la Clemens. Paul Byrd??? Tells me he has no offers worth taking in the marketplace at the present time.

    Wolf? I think the Dodgers, Padres and Mets are his most likely landing spots. If the Mets don’t sign Perez, I think Wolf cashes in pretty well. The Mets will overpay for him if they don’t sign Perez. If the Mets are out of the picture, I think he gets a 2 year deal from either the Dodgers or Padres.

    Garland? I heard the other day he is still holding out for a 3 year deal. Thus far, nobody has offered him 3 years. The Dodgers are interested but, I don’t believe they are interested in 3 years. His final resting spot is still unknown.

    Freddie Garcia is interesting. Colon signing with the White Sox may knock Garcia out of that spot. The Rangers are talking to Sheets as well as Freddie.

    The Mets and Yankees? I think it depends on what happens with Wolf, Perez and Pettitte.

    Supposedly, he is deciding next week. If that’s the case, he’s probably waiting to see how the other guys in the market shake out. Looks to be between Texas and the Yankees (IMO) unless a mystery team (my favorite Scott Boras term! lol) emerges.

  363. PAT M January 15th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    I still believe that Pettite comes back …Somewhere around 12-13 million…The Yanks precieved value of Pettite and that corresponding value for the # 4 spot in the rotation is I think more than what they offered…..There is no options out there better than Andy Pettite..Not within the organization nor is there a free agent that satisfies the need for this season….Sheets maybe an option as he is indeed a high reward but certainly a high risk alternative…..Hughes must stay in AAA for at least 3 months….There comes a time when supply and demand will increase Andy’s percieved value that has been established by Cashman and the other suits that have decided to play hardball with him…..Unless they make a trade at the expense of shedding themselves of their top-tier minor league talent they have limited options…..Too come this far this offseason it’s seem foolish to play this game of chicken with Andy Pettite…..This deal gets done….

  364. BD January 15th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    I hate to ask this (because I don’t like the idea of the Yankees getting Garcia), but what do you suppose that deal would look like?

  365. SJ44 January 15th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    A Colon-like deal for Garcia when he signs. I don’t see teams committing a lot of guaranteed money to him.

  366. pat January 15th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    Wow. US Air flight down in the Hudson River by 48th street. Say a litle prayer for the people on the plane.

  367. ellen January 15th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    pat: just read the same thing. They’re saying it hit some geese that caused the engines to stall. My prayers are with them.

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  369. hobbie January 15th, 2009 at 7:45 pm

    That hurler that Tampa is considering as a Pettite replacement is awesome and we know already that the little guy trusts his stuff.

  370. CT January 15th, 2009 at 8:51 pm

    People are angry at Andy because of the comments he made to the media about wanting to return and how money wasn’t going to be an issue. Mike Mussina took a huge paycut the last 2 seasons…why can’t Andy?

  371. Brent January 15th, 2009 at 9:05 pm

    I hate to sound like a jerk, but its Andy’s fault he didn’t keep in shape. You can work out anywhere, most hotels have gyms. Plus if he wasn’t a cheater he wouldn’t have had this problem anyway.

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