Pinch hitting: Chasing 800
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 25, 2009 
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January is traditionally a slow month for baseball news. So for the second year in a row, we will showcase other blogs with a series of pinch hitters.
Next up is Frank from Chasing 800.
Frank is 24, lives in the Bronx and holds down two jobs. During the season, he also works at Stan’s Sports World, right across the street from the Stadium. He has been blogging since July of 2007 and hopes to return to school in the fall.
Here is his post:
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They say you don’t know what you got until it’s gone. Boy, are they right. The 2008 season saw a changing of the guard in the Bronx. Joe Torre was no longer leading the men in pinstripes, Joe Girardi was.
After 12 seasons as Yankees manager, Torre had worn out his welcome. We said goodbye to a man that brought pride, power and respect back to the pinstripes. He made Yankee Stadium the place to be again. He gave so many people so many memories. He gave us everything he had. There was that magical ’96 season. Or howo bout one of the most dominating teams ever in the ’98 team? Or in 2001 when he gave us strength after the Sept. 11 attacks? He was as much a face of the recovery in New York as anyone was. Torre also gave Aaron Boone an inspirational pep talk in 2003, right before his home run in Game 7 won the Yankees the A.L. pennant. That was the last great Yankee moment. For all those reasons and more, I thank Joe.
I thought I wanted change after the 2007 season. Making it to October was something of the norm around here since Torre took over. I expected nothing less. I admit, Joe spoiled me. He was a good manager and he was the right man for the job all along. He got those Yankee teams through the rough times, he got them through the good times, but most importantly, he got them to October.
It’s no coincidence that the year he left, the Yankees failed to make the playoffs and the team he went to go manage, the Dodgers, went to the LCS. After all this time of questioning his ability to manage, it was Joe that got the Yankees that far, not their open checkbook. The way he handled every situation was all in good taste and it was all in the best interest of the Yankees. Some of us just never knew it until now. He was a special guy, one we all grew to love.
Now that I see Torre in a different city and see how much he is loved out west, it makes me want him back in the Bronx. It doesn’t feel the same here without him. I grew up to be such a big Yankee fan because of him and what he did for the team and how he made the Yankees a proud organization again.
His pinstriped days are behind him now but that’s OK. Those memories will last a lifetime. He will always be a Yankee in my book. I hope that one day No. 6 will get retired right along with the other Yankee greats … that’s where he belongs.
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Good post, Frank and good luck. Coming tomorrow: Matt from A Connecticut Yankee.
Great post Frank.
very nice job Frank–i can only imagine that you will be mercilessly attacked by the legion of Torre haters here though. Ignore them.
“He gave us everything he had.”
I love Torre and miss the guy… but I think the great players also had something to do with their success.
I agree that Torre is a Yankee and will always be one.
I was okay with the manager change (que sera, sera), but if it wasn’t for Joe Torre, I might very well be a Mets fan today.
Great post.
If I see you around the Bronx, I’ll be sure to say hi.
He should be retired. Four W.S. in five years and playoff appearances for eleven consecutive years. It won’t happen soon due to how both parties parted ways, but it should happen in due time.
I can’t wait for his screenplay!
I am glad Joe Torre is gone. I can never forgive him for not pulling the players off the field when the midges attacked in 2007. He was not a good in-game manager the past several years, and he was terrible at managing the bullpen. I am thankful for all the championships he helped us win, but I do not miss him.
“it was Joe that got the Yankees that far”
You’ve got to be kidding. Praising Joe’s “success” in LA may perhaps best be done with a look at that division and the dodgers actual record.
With manny added to the team the dodgers went 84-78 (3.68 team era), in 2007(4.2 team era) they went 82-80. So, with MANNY carrying the team on it’s back and much better pitching, torre managed a massive two wins, 2, over what grady little did the year before…
The yankees (89-73, team era 4.28) missed the playoffs because they only had two starting pitchers take the mound for over 20 starts and darrell rasner pitched the third most innings on the team.
Love him; don’t miss him.
The only problem I had with that post was the idea that it was “no coincidence” that the Yankees missed the playoffs and the Dodgers made it. I’m not ripping Torre, but a manager just doesn’t have *that* much impact. I doubt Torre would have been able to magically prevent all the injuries, or get IPK to not suck. I also think most managers would get into the playoffs if they had the most talented team in a weak division and were gift-wrapped Manny Ramirez at the trade deadline. Again, not being a Torre hater, but to blame the playoff no-show on Joe not being at the helm ignores the fact that this was a cleansing season.
>but if it wasn’t for Joe Torre, I might very well be a *Mets* fan today.
Oh, how dare you!
Eric
January 25th, 2009 at 1:13 am
I am glad Joe Torre is gone. I can never forgive him for not pulling the players off the field when the midges attacked in 2007. He was not a good in-game manager the past several years, and he was terrible at managing the bullpen. I am thankful for all the championships he helped us win, but I do not miss him.
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Was he bad with the bullpen all 12 years or just the last 6 years he didn’t have a bullpen or a rotation during the last 4 years?
Pel: Just be glad I am not.
I actually think that Joe Girardi did a poor job this year and because of that, I was able to truly appreciate Joe Torre. I know that sounds harsh, but there were so many bad in-game decisions from a guy who supposedly has his “statistics” game locked down. Joe Torre was great and until Joe Girardi shows me something better, Joe Torre will always be king (and my first blog post was about ridding ourselves of Torre, so, again, I’m a firm believer in the saying “you don’t know what you’ve got until it’s gone…).
Great post, Frank.
Torre was, and is, a great manager.
However, I think that not having Chien Ming Wang, Joba, and Posada for large portions of the season had more to do with us missing the playoffs than the Torre/Girardi dynamic.
Who’s to say that CMW/Joba couldn’t have won 10 more games combined? 89+10=99=playoffs
i am at a place in life in which i stick by the theory that in-game decisions are not all that many; a manager doesn’t really micro-manage as we are accustomed to believe. that most of these decisions are simply going with the odds.
a manager’s biggest task is setting the tone for a team; creating the emotional environment in which they play, something which in my opinion plays a decisive part in the W-L column.
for this reason, joe torre was severely missed this past season and i agree with frank that it was no accident that the yankees missed the playoffs for the first time in… 13 years was it?.
ymmv
“it was no accident that the yankees missed the playoffs”
Oh, Wang got hurt on purpose? Or did Girardi break his foot? Was Posada’s injury in any way related to Torre leaving? What about Hughes’ rib fracture?
THESE were the reasons the Yankees missed the playoffs. Not because the team needed a hug from Joe T.
Joe Torre’s Dodgers were significantly worse then Joe Girardi’s Yanks(a worse record in a worse division in a worse league). If the Yankees are in any other division other then the al east (maybe the al west) they make the playoffs with their #1 pitcher on the DL 1/2 the season and their phenom injured for the stretch run. I’m almost positive that most little league coaches could manage a team in the nl west. I really don’t think it was a coincidence that the teams bullpen era went from a 4.37 to a 3.79 under Girardi. You guys can deify Torre all you want, just know you’re worshiping a false idol.
Eric,
“I am glad Joe Torre is gone. I can never forgive him for not pulling the players off the field when the midges attacked in 2007. He was not a good in-game manager the past several years, and he was terrible at managing the bullpen. I am thankful for all the championships he helped us win, but I do not miss him.”
How many times has a manager pulled his players off the field? In a playoff game? Because of bugs?
If this is what lasts in your mind from the Torre era then you’re missing out. That has to be the most negative description of ANY manager with the success that Torre had while he was in NY.
I like Torre but i do believe it was time for a change. He wasnt the same since Zimmer left. Dodgers more than likely werent a playoff team before Manny and Blake arrived. So Torre did have a good team to work with not like it was a bunch of scrubs.
Ehhh, so-so post. Listen, Torre was not the reason the Yankees won 4 championships, it was mostly the players. As far as pure baseball tacticians go, Torre wasn’t all that great. He egregiously mishandled the bullpen and wasn’t the best on-field manager. That said, he handled the players, media, and ownership very well.
The bottom line is that I don’t think managers/coaches have a huge affect on the game. Baseball is very much about an individual hitter swinging a bat and hitting the ball thrown by an individual pitcher. Each player calculates their actions and then acts accordingly. A manager has very little affect. So, you may say it is “no coincidence” that the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs this year without Torre. I would agree with you, but I would say, WHAT ABOUT THE TAMPA BAY RAYS? Did Torre ever have to deal with a 3rd team in the division equally as good as his team and the Sawx? No.
I’m sorry. I love Torre and what he did, but don’t act as though the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs because he left. That’s LUDICROUS. The Yankees didn’t make the playoffs because of 1) injuries 2) underwhelming years from Jeter, Cano, others…………………………………….. 99) Joe Torre not being there.
Did Matsui get hurt because Torre left? Did Jeter suck because Torre left (if you say yes, then that is a serious indictment of Jeter’s character)? Did Wang get hurt because Torre left? Cano (don’t give me Larry Bowa stuff… if he needs Larry Bowa to have a good year, then he shouldn’t be in MLB.) Did Posada get hurt because Torre left? LUDICROUS. This is inane ramblings that have nothing to do with the game on the field.
Yes, I’m nostalgic for the Torre years too, but let’s not give him credit for curing cancer.
You (and I) haven’t known anything besides Torre. I’m sure in time you’ll learn the Yankees can do just fine without Torre. It’s time to move on.
also….. Shouldn’t Girardi’s handling of the bullpen (the true test of a manager besides ‘handling the players) be indicative of his talent? Torre wore out every reliever he ever saw (Sturtze, Proctor, Gordon, Quantrill to name a few) whereas Girardi managed a great bullpen. Also, I think Girardi can handle the hit-and-run and defensive alignment as well as Torre (or any 5 year old for that matter.)
To those who say most managers don’t micro-manage during a game or don’t engage in many in-game decisions, I would have to disagree. If you watched most of the games, you’d see that Joe Girardi thought he was the king of micro-managing. Let’s not forget his assortment of lineup changes which are clearly game dependent managerial moves.
The worst thing about Girardi being the king (or thinking he was the king) of micro-managing is that he wouldn’t make smart moves. I’ll never forget a loss to the Orioles (late July) that showcased this problem. After Darrell Rasner struggled, he brought in Damaso Marte to face Nick Markakis. Now, when this happened, I nearly threw a punch into my computer screen (I watch MLBTV). I know about Nick Markakis because I have him on a few fantasy teams, but that doesn’t mean I’m the only one nor does it mean it’s hard to learn a thing or two about him. Markakis hit lefties this year at a phenomenal clip. In fact, at the time, his .317 AVG and .956 OPS against them were better than his righty-splits. Joe Girardi could have easily learned this if he would have looked at a scouting report, or a statistics page. But no, Girardi sees a lefty and calls a lefty. He doesn’t ask questions. He doesn’t check the numbers, he simply reacts and that’s that. He called in Marte to face Markakis and Markakis promptly singled and loaded the bases. Girardi could have brought in Edwar or Veras to face him since it would have been a better battle. Then he could have brought in Marte to face Huff (who doesn’t hit lefties well). When is Joe going to learn that not all lefties do poorly against lefties (and vice versa)? Of course, it’s up to Marte to execute, but still.
There are so many seemingly minor moments like that throughout last season and it really makes you scratch your head. How many games would the Yankees have won if Girardi would have done this, or that, or chose to bat DAMON instead of CHRISTIAN, despite the splits. There are so many moments like that and it’s disgusting.
Also, to those who said the manager’s job is to “set the tone” for the ball club, let’s not forget that the Yankees laid down on Girardi at the end of the year and there have been a lot of reports out that state he was too negative and couldn’t handle losses well. This reportedly caused the team to tighten up instead of feeling at ease. People need to understand that from a managerial standpoint, Girardi didn’t do that great. Yes, the team still finished with 89 games won and they had their fair share of injuries, but the Red Sox beat them without Manny in the 2nd half, without a healthy David Ortiz, without a good bullpen, without a dominant Josh Beckett, and without the Jacoby Ellsbury they thought they had.
He just didn’t do as well as he could have. I’m sure Joe will change it up a bit next year, though. He’s a smart guy and knows what he has to do to succeed.
oh just to show how awful the NL west that Torre had to out manage is, the combined winning % of the NL west vs the rest of baseball was .437 or about a 71 win season.
The winning % of the AL east?
.568 or a 92 win season
Torre could have stayed with the Yanks — in fact the Yanks offered him a one-year deal that would have given him the highest salary of any manager — but Torre selfishly decided that he deserved even more, and so he left. So be it.
Torre was the perfect fit for the Yanks when they sought out “good clubhouse” kinds of players, and when they played more get ‘em on, get ‘em over, get ‘em in style of baseball.
I questioned many of his decisions in his later years, and a guy like Gary Sheffield can poison a clubhouse in a hurry.
Nice post by Frank, and a fine job yesterday by Nick.
Unbelievable. Besides for the fact that as per usual, you said absolutely nothing of originality, relevance, or intelligence, you included some astoundingly ignorant remarks. Blaming the Yankees missing the playoffs on the change from Torre to Girardi? You can’t honestly think that a manager change, especially one from one experienced vet to another, can affect a team like the Yankees so much as to affect their playoff hopes. It was clearly a matter of injuries.
Hopefully tomorrow we can get back on track.
Jordan:
Have some class. Frank has his own blog and he had the guts to come on here and display his own writing. If you want to disagree, fine. There is no reason for name-calling and a lack of civility.
Agreed, Pete.
Wow.. perfect timing for writing about Torre
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....orre_.html
For those who don’t like the job the either of the two Joe’s did, I have two words for you…………….. Johnny Keane.
i love torre as much as anyone… but c’mon, get your head out of the clouds.
didnt anyone over the age of 25 ask to write a guest blog?
Great post and Joe T. will I am sure have his number retired someday.
Wonder what Torre’s new management and players think about his new Yankee tell all?
Seems to me that giving behind the scenes info on an old team might make a new team a little nervous about what he will share about them in the future.
Isn’t that kind of book, if necessary at all, best saved for after retirement?
The timimg of this post and the news of Torre’s book trashing the Yankees is amazing.
I loved Joe Torre but I was in the camp that thought it was time for a change. Joe’s over-use of the bullpen has been discussed ad nauseum,along with all the first round eliminations.
As we saw this year, making the playoffs is no small feat. But I do believe that Joe got off easy for the ’04 choke to Boston. His teams were really never the same afterwards.
Dude… Torre’s gone and rightfully so. It should have happened earlier.
while i realize alot of the reason the yankees didnt make the playoffs was bc of the injuries i can ask you, what happen with robinson cano? he was healthy all year and it took girardi til august to bench him for lack of hustle. under torre’s watch cano wouldve been bench alot sooner, so that right there is a diff. or how bout girardi changing the lineup for the first 4 months of the season? or sitting damon out a game in minnesota when he was in a hot streak in favor of justin christian? i am a girardi fan but it was a diff style coming in for 08 and the players had to adapt. the injuries did hurt the yankees play this but not as much as their inconsistency in the lineup did. torre always said the right thing to get the players to focus (ex: 2005 and 2007), girardi will get there eventually but torre knew what he was doing while in the bronx
Al – best. post. ever.
No doubt Torre did a great job with the Yanks (well, you know, maybe his handling of the bullpen was suspect). His strength was handling the whole roster, getting everyone playing time, weeding out the personalities that didn’t fit, and getting the respect of his players.
But it was time for a change, both for the Yankees and Torre. Torre, I think, needed a new challenge, one that didn’t include the Steinbrenner brothers. And the team had become complacent under Torre, playing by the numbers and not getting very far in the post season.
Torre couldn’t manage the team forever, and I am still excited about having Girardi on board. I don’t think even Torre could have squeezed a playoff berth out of last year’s injury-riddled roster.
I really enjoyed this post. I was one of the people who wanted Torre to stay with the Yankees. I’m not coming out here and just saying that because Girardi failed to make the postseason. Torre always had the Yankees playing in October, and for that..he was doing a great job. You can always find problems with every manager..nobody is perfect.
As McDonald’s would say: “Change is good”
In this case, change was not good…
Kevin
I’ve overlooked Torre for the 2004 meltdown but never thought he should have had another contract after the 2005 season. That was the season that did it for me. He simply got too complacent.
Torre wore out his welcome? Really??
Also, the word “howo” (8th line) is not in my dictionary.
Nice post, though.
If it is true that Torre rips the BOSS and Cashman in his new book and revals things that happen in the locker room Im sorry but I hope the Yankees never honor him. He claims teammates called A-ROD AFRAUD and that he was “obsessed” with perceived rival Derek Jeter. I respect him and thank him for all he did but this is just wrong. He has enough $$$ he doesnt need to air dirty laundry for extra cash. Im sorry I think its just wrong
“For those who don’t like the job the either of the two Joe’s did, I have two words for you…………….. Johnny Keane.”
If Johnny Keane inherited the NYY Teams of 1996-2001, he would have been the equal of Torre or Girardi.
Keane, in 5 full MLB Seasons had a Lifetime WP of .532, .560 in the stronger National League when he had competitive MLB teams. AND he beat the Yanks and won a World championship in 1964.
The 1965 Yankees, who Keane managed, were a sad collection of aging veterans and utility players.
Torre’s Lifetime WP? .538, aided by a fabulous .605 WP as yankee Mgr.
Girardi’s Lifetime WP? .515
Its all about timing and the players you inherit!
Interesting thoughts Frank. Good Post.
My thoughts regarding Torre are a bit different. I’m a Yankees fan, not a Torre fan. I appreciate everything that he did for the team. I will always remember those wonderful good times, just like I am still horrified by some bad times with him. I thought it was time for him to go and I still think it was a good idea. I don’t think we were making the playoffs last year with Torre, but that’s just my opinion.
Now news that he is coming out with a book? Oh great.
“Also, the word “howo” (8th line) is not in my dictionary.”
lol sorry about the typo, i went over the spelling a few times, i dont know how i missed that, but it’s ok. Peter misspelled my blog, its Chasing800. I want to thank everyone for giving their input on my post, whether they agreed with me or not.
[i]“It’s no coincidence that the year he left, the Yankees failed to make the playoffs and the team he went to go manage, the Dodgers, went to the LCS. After all this time of questioning his ability to manage, it was Joe that got the Yankees that far, not their open checkbook. The way he handled every situation was all in good taste and it was all in the best interest of the Yankees.[/i]”
Giben the news of Torres classless new book ( he’s always been about the money ) this has to be one of the stupidest posts ever on Lohud
A Johnny Keane apologist! LOL! That’s cool. He’s all yours.
What did Johnny do for the Yanks his one year (1965) and where did he go afterwards? If the NL was far superior – which it was at that time – why did it take him 7 games to beat an aging and inferior Yankee team in the ’64 series?
Not a good hire.
(though he did inherit an aging team, granted – what was worse – the Yanks inherited a badly aging manager.)
P.S. was just joshin mostly anyway. The point is that Torre and Girardi were and will be blessings to the Yanks during their time here.
There’s nothing wrong with being a Torre fan. He managed the team through some incredible years and I agree his number should be retired (assuming he doesn’t say anything too unprofessional in his new book).
The big problem with this post is it makes the simplistic conclusion that Torre = Playoffs and Anyone But Torre = No Playoffs. You’re entitled to that opinion, but what facts is it based on?
You could say Girardi inherited essentially the same team as Torre had and couldn’t make the playoffs. But Torre never had to deal with a Rays team that was good enough to win the AL East. If the Rays are their typical bottom-dwelling selves, the Yankees make the playoffs in 2008 as the Wild Card.
You could say Torre’s teams always make the playoffs. But again, context matters here. When Torre managed bad teams, they didn’t always make the playoffs. If Torre’s 2008 Dodgers hadn’t acquired Manny, and Manny hadn’t gone on an unbelievable tear down the stretch, the Dodgers wouldn’t have won 84 games and made the playoffs.
Frank, you clearly have great passion for the team and I admire that. So I’d like to know your answer to the big question: why do you think a Torre-led 2008 Yankees would have made the playoffs when a Girardi-led 2008 Yankees didn’t?
If you don’t answer that question, I just can’t accept your premise that the Yankees need Torre to win. Especially when Torre has made plenty of bad decisions that have helped the team lose.
I enjoyed the post. One thing Joe could never do is manage his bullpen (I know I am pointing out the obvious here). Plus, after Zim left he had problems managing late in the game. I believe after 12 years that is was time for him to go, but it saddens me to see him writing a tell-all. One thing about Joe was that he always had class, if this is true, I’m thinking not so much…
Jeremy–
“why do you think a Torre-led 2008 Yankees would have made the playoffs when a Girardi-led 2008 Yankees didn’t?”
i have been not liked everything about torre when he was here. one of my main things against him is bringing in jeff weaver into game 5 of the 2003 world series, where Alex Gonzalez hit the game winning HR and changed the series. i also blame torre for the 2004 collapse but he’s done so much for the yanks that i cant see how i can hold those things against him. but the main difference in a torre lead 2008 team begins with cano, he wouldve given him a kick in the rear alot sooner, the lineup changes wouldnt have occurred as often as they did under girardi which the players were not too happy of and girardi’s “military” style didnt bold well with many players. its not girardi’s fault they had an issue with girardi and his style but torre has proven (2005,2007) that when the team is under water he can keep them afloat. im not in the locker room with these guys or on the plane with them but whatever torre’s infulence was with the players was one of his strengths. the players were behind torre. i dont think many players were buying into girardi’s logic. i dont blame girardi for this year’s disappointment but i think torre would’ve gotten through the rough times this year, just my opinion, i could be wrong.
“Oh, Wang got hurt on purpose? Or did Girardi break his foot? Was Posada’s injury in any way related to Torre leaving? What about Hughes’ rib fracture?
THESE were the reasons the Yankees missed the playoffs. Not because the team needed a hug from Joe T.”- whozat
frank-
i think you’re right that something left with torre. i know that coaches like bowa didn’t want to stay around without him. would cano have had that bad year if torre and thus bowa would have stayed ?
one of the biggest things that torre did that i didn’t realize was that he was a major influence on yankee hitting. you may have noticed that the yankee offense was horrible last year with torre gone. the dodgers hired 4 hitting coaches to spread torre’s hitting philosophy through their minor league system.
long was there the year before, but working under mattingly and torre. this is just one example of torre’s influence. i do think he did more than we realized.
whozat’s criticism of your position?
let’s just say whozat was a major backer of hughes, kennedy , and joba being in the rotation which shows a little humility is in order for him instead of his typical know it all attitude towards your post.
actually whozat was so wrong last year that he’s the one who probably needs a hug.
Good post Frank, even though I disagree that Torre in 2008 might have made a difference. We’ll never know will we?
At least you didn’t say that Torre was fired. (that always bugs me when I read posters who say that)
There seems to be an underlying current to both Torre and Pettitte. They both felt insulted by pay cuts. They both felt under appreciated after their long years of service. They both were paid extremely well in the past. (I believe Torre would have still been the highest paid manager in the game had he stayed!)
Sometimes I wonder if Joe didn’t put a bug in Andy’s ear. Maybe Andy got to proof read Joe’s book this off season.
Joe Torre was great at handling the media and some personalities…I still dont think he was a great manager.
Joe Torre is gone, and I miss him. There is no reason to think that he was a perfect person, or manager, but he was and is a great man, and by that I mean someone cool under pressure, who has a profound understanding of his world and the world around him. Sort of like a president. A good president. One riding a wave of popularity. Torre managed, not only his years here, but even now that he has gone. This is not a knock on Girardi, it is a celebration of the other guy.
I read this blog a lot but have never been inclined to post till now, just saying i loved what you wrote and i also miss Torre.
You cannot belittle what Torre meant to the Yankees for 12 years. He guided a team with a steady hand in circus-like conditions. With that said, his game management (especially bullpen) was deteriorating even compared with himselft 5-10 years ago. NL West is a joke, Manny went on a rampage last year. That’s why they advanced. Some would argue Torre pulling DLowe after 5 innings in NLCS cost them that series. Girardi inherited an aging team weak on starting pitching-so it’s not fair to place the blame on him…yet. If he cannot get it done this year, then it will be tougher to defend him.
YanksAngel, after I read that, there is no way that Torre’s number will be retired. Nice post too.
I meant nice post by Chasing 880.
Frank,
Cano and Melky definitely were reasons we didn’t make the playoffs. Could Torre or Bowa have gotten them to play better? Maybe – but who knows? I just find it unlikely that Cano and Melky need a specific person to motivate them, or else they turn into terrible players. I’m not saying Girardi could not have done a better job with them, but I just don’t know what Torre would have done differently.
I also have trouble accepting that Girardi was a bad manager for being too tough on his players but also was not tough enough on Cano and Melky. I can’t envision a scenario was Girardi was strict with every player on the team except the two players who needed the kick in the pants.
I think Girardi motivated the players just fine, but again, who knows? The bottom line is that the reasons the Yankees did not make the playoffs probably did not include “lack of motivation.” (Unless Cano and Melky really are so immature that they need Bowa to haze them on a regular basis or else they don’t care about baseball. In which case Girardi had better learn to be even more militaristic.)
I think we are in agreement about Torre except for one thing: whether he could have led the 2008 Yankees to the playoffs. Those Yankees ended the season 6 games behind the Sox and 8 games behind the Rays. I doubt any manager in history has made his team at least six games better.
The guys a piece of trash. Writing a book now? lol
What a ridiculous coincidence this is…that a blog like this is posted the day Torre sells out the Yankees.
Funny.
Completely out of character for Torre, a social genius, to slam anyone in this manner publicly…especially a former employer who made him a very wealthy man.
Methinks the Daily News story is most likely greatly exagerrated.
Cano came out to a roaring start the last year torre was around right? Then Torre straightened him out? I thought it was pretty well known that Bowa was the one riding cano. What kind of year did Posada have for torre’s last season? Do you think Darrel Rasner making the third most starts on the team and mussina being the Only consistent starter mattered much this past year?
Mainly I’d be curious to know what the guest blogger thinks of Joe torre’s job in LA vs that of grady little the year before. Grady led the dodgers to 82-80 in 2007 while the team had a 4.2 era; last year torre led the dodgers to 84-78 while the team posted a 3.68 era and manny carried them on his back. Two wins???
Joe Torre was good for them at the time but lets remember he inherited a team that was ready for primetime in 96 and kept it going. I will give him credit for helping us win those 4 WS but what about playing the infield in in the 01 world series,blowing a 3-0 lead to the Bosox which was by far his worst managing,batting Arod 8th,not taking the team off the field when the midges came in Cleveland. It was time for a change, Girardi isn’t great with the media and is rough around the edges but he did win 89 games with a severely injured team-no matsui,posada,wang and arod missing 20+ games. I think we owe Girardi some credit for them even doing that well.
What is interesting is that if Joe thinks Cashman did not stand behind him (maybe Cash wanted to preserve his own job at that point) he did the same with Zi after 03 and Mel after 05
Frank I disagree. Joe Torre gave some amazing memories to us in the past but it was time for him to go. If Girardi wins a world series next year, was it still a bad move? You cannot simply blame last year on Girardi, nor can you blame it on injuries. All of those things go together to make up a losing season, not just one thing.
As for Joe Torre, he is starting to rub a lot of Yankee fans the wrong way. He should keep his mouth shut and worry about managing the Dodgers.
Nice post, Frank, for the most part. I heartily agree on appreciating what Joe Torre brought to the Yankees and NOT trashing him. That said, I am with the group that thought it was really time to move on.
I am definitely a Joe Girardi fan. I have been since he was a player (I actually think that Jorge was given the starting catcher job a little too soon and would have been a better defensive catcher early on if he had ben able to learn behind Joe for a little longer). I appreciate his passion, desire to win, knowledge of the game, discipline, character and work ethic. I believe he will do a better job this year with a better pitching staff and less injuries. He had some big shoes to fill and I think he just tried a little too hard last year. Give him a break! Let’s see what he can do with THIS team!
I appreciate what Torre did, and his managing of personalities is second to none, BUT if you look at the in game decisions you’re left to scratch your head. In the early Yankee/Torre years, the game basically managed it self. 1996- Six innings from a starter, Mo for two and Wetteland for the save. Once Mo took the closer role, it was six innings from the starters, Stanton/Nelson/Lloyd for two and Mo for the save. Once Torre had to actually find roles for pitchers, he stunk. What was Proctor’s role? One day he was the long reliever, the next day he was the set-up man, the next day he was doing mop-up duty, there was no continuity.
Nicely done Frank! It’s Chasing 800 guys! haha =)
well i thought it was time for a change after 2007 but that doesnt mean i dont appreicate what the guy meant to the organization while he was here. as far as his book goes, im sure torre is a classy guy and his book is such but i think he told it as is. he couldve bashed the yanks in his press conference saying goodbye to ny but he didnt. i have no prob with the book and it cites why he wanted out in the first place. he wore out his welcome according to upper management and he took the 1 year incentive based offer as an insult..nothing wrong wit that.
Joe Torre did a great job and he is missed. Girardi did a lousy job and he will not be missed when he is fired this year. He has no apptitude for the job. I thought he got a bum rap in Florida, but I was wrong. He screws with players pysches and their professionalism. He took away things in the clubhouse to assert his power. He is a control freak that doesn’t belong in a Yankee uniform as a manager. I will be glad when he is gone.
Hopefully, he hasn’t ruined Cano, S. Duncan, Melky, Hughes, Kennedy & others. He is a jerk. Ask Pete, he is a closed minded control freak jerk who tries to control everything from injuries to information, to junk food.
BTW, the Dodgers made the playoffs with tremendous amount of injuries to star players because of Joe Torre, not in spite of him. He is cool & trustworthy!
Torre is and always has been a complete phony. He was carried by superior talent and never was a good manager.
Frank, its Ralph. You know I respect the die-hard Yankee fan in you, but you have it wrong with Torre.
I do believe firmly that Torre, while being a great clubhouse manager, was terrible in games. Also, as an earlier post wrote, the Dodgers were able to manage 2 more wins over last year despite over a half run less per game allowed AND the addition of Manny who had a ridiculous last two months of the season.
In all, simply put: Torre is a great guy, knows the game very well, and deserves the respect of having MANAGED 4 teams to world series titles in 5 years. MANAGED being the key word, not LED.
The idea that the Yankees didn’t make the playoffs last year because of their manager and not because they had serious pitching issues is laughable. Also laughable is the idea that a manager has anything more to do with a team’s success than the players on it. But, we’ll humor ourselves for a moment:
2008 Dodgers: Pythagorean W-L 87-75, actual W-L 84-78 (-3)
2007 Dodgers: Pythagorean W-L 82-80, actual W-L 82-80 (0)
The Dodgers actually statistically underachieved with Torre as opposed to Grady Little. Yes, Grady “Pedro is going to pitch until next week if he has to” Little. Hmm.
I appreciate what Joe did for us but he did not make the Yankees winners, they made him a winner. There is a reason he was below .500 as a manager before he got the Yanks and a reason the headline read “Clueless Joe” the day he was hired.
Torre’s strength was managing personalities, Zimmer was the baseball man. Zim left and the titles went with him.
Girardi did well with what he had, I wont judge an players career on one year and I certainly won’t judge a managers.
I am just glad the news of Joe’s book hit the same day this ode to the man himself was written. Well timed. Wish u could guest blog again tomorrow and discuss his class and how much honor and dignity he has always had and how we should make room for him in Monument Park. I hope the article enrages the front office and they go take Manny from LA and then everyone can see what kind of manager Torre is when he isn’t given the best talent within his league/division. Since the man of tremendous integrity left the building with his “3rd person tell all account”, now let’s see how the holier than though stacks up as just a baseball manager.
“It’s no coincidence that the year he left, the Yankees failed to make the playoffs and the team he went to go manage, the Dodgers, went to the LCS”
I’m getting really tired of this, you know… most team’s that win 89 go to the playoffs, and certainly should not look at it as a bad thing if that isn’t enough wins to make the playoffs.
The Dodgers won 82 games in 2007, finishing 4th in their division. In 2008 they won 84 games, A WHOLE 2 MORE GAMES GO TORRE, and won their division.
Seriously, the nonsense about Torre needs to stop. Baseball manager has to be the most overrated position in sports management.
still catching up on weekend posts.
nice post frank. i left a little torre story on your blog.