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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Trying to project Joba’s innings

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 26, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Tim Dierkes of Roto Authority polled some writers and bloggers to ask how many innings they thought Joba Chamberlain would pitch in the coming season.

My answer of 160 was between Will Carroll and Ken Rosenthal, which seems like pretty good company.

Though Joba tossed only 100.1 inning in 2008, I think the Yankees will push him a little provided he stays healthy. He’s 23 now, this is will be third season in the majors and he is at a point where he will work as a starter in spring training and then start the season in the rotation.

I have no science to back up what I’m saying, just a sense from talking to people with the Yankees that they don’t plan to baby him.

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289 Responses to “Trying to project Joba’s innings”

  1. Bill January 26th, 2009 at 6:22 am

    Joba’s innings depend on AJ’s health and Hughes’ development. If the two of them do well, you can keep Joba in the 130-150 range – the occasional spot start or long relief appearance from one of the Yanks AAAA pitchers (IPK or Kei Igawa) would help there. If not, they are going to have to push Joba up.

  2. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 26th, 2009 at 6:50 am

    Probably so Bill, right now that’s the way it looks. Good response.
    But this has all the earmarks of turning into a full blown battle pitting the two warring factions of “Joba to the pen – Joba to start” AND “Andy Pettitte is a must sign – Andy Pettitte is a betrayer” against each other.
    I’d say if yesterday’s Joe Torre posts were WWI, this has all the potential to be WWII.
    Pete has really been stirring the pot the last few days. Is this ratings week or something, Pete? lol.

  3. Sean Serritella January 26th, 2009 at 7:04 am

    You never have enough starters. Some one always gets hurt.

  4. no.27 January 26th, 2009 at 7:26 am

    I read that the rule with developing young pitchers is that adding more than 30 innings per season starts to increase the chance of injury. Considering he’s never thrown more than 100 innings and that he’s had a few problems with injuries in the past, 160 might be kinda risky. It would definitely be a big change from the Joba Rules.

    On the other hand, Verlander, who has similar stuff to Joba threw 130 innings in 05, 186 in 06, and then 200 in 07 and 08.

  5. sunny615 January 26th, 2009 at 7:32 am

    From what I’ve read – the scenario is that Joba will be the fifth starter, occassionally missing starts and throwing bullpen sessions on those occassions. His innings will be limited to 5 or a pitch count total and will be pulled sooner if the Yankees have a large lead early on in the game. All these instances scream long reliever. So IMO, that’ll be Aceves or Coke depending on ST. Either way, Joba is probably a year away from being a full fledged starter barring injury. That to me, is the biggest issue. If he can stay injury free this year, I”ll be happier than if he threw 180 innings and went on the DL.

  6. Tantron Willoughby January 26th, 2009 at 7:40 am

    Maybe JT will come out with another passive aggressive book about how the midges stole Christmas?

  7. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 8:08 am

    Why is Heyman’s prediction so low-109?

    Does he think Joba will get hurt or return to the ‘pen?

  8. Yankee2123 January 26th, 2009 at 8:08 am

    Joba should pitch about 75 innings, in the pen, setting up Rivera.

  9. ANSKY January 26th, 2009 at 8:08 am

    I’m hoping Joba doesn’t go over 200 innings until ’10 or ’11. If its 150-160 this year, it’s 190-200 next year and then cut ‘im loose. Reason is, I’d sure like to see him over 200 innings from ’11-’21, and as much more as he can give us.

    Verlander went 130-186-200-200 but we still have to see how ’09-’10-’11-’12 etc go.

    No science to these ’09-’10 numbers for Joba … just guess work based on what we hear & read, and who it all comes from. Just like everyone else here.

  10. bru January 26th, 2009 at 8:14 am

    the yankees should not go over 130 innings with joba for any reason whatsoever.

    wether you believe in the 30 pitch yearly increase or not why take the chance?? joba is 23 yrs old & in 09 should pitch 130,10-160 innings,2011-190 innings.

    if he didn’t get hurt we would not have to wait until 2012 to get 200 innings out of him.

    it might be different with a pitcher like pettitte,wang,mussina but a flamethrower like joba we need to be carefull.

    the only question i have is why are more pitchers getting hurt now compared to the early years???

  11. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 8:21 am

    Ansky, I agree. People complain that pitchers are “babied” today-”Bob Gibson yada, yada yada”. But, even Gibson didn’t pitch 200 innings in the bigs until he was 25. Joba , and pitchers like him, are like a fine wine-keep him bottled up now so you can enjoy him later.

  12. 86w183 January 26th, 2009 at 8:26 am

    Like most numbers the 30-inning increase rule is just a guideline and must be tailored for individual situations. However given that Joba has an injury history I believe they should be more cautious not less. Ideally 20 starts and no more than 100 pitches in any of them.

    One possible way to work up to that would be to have him throw 60 pitches in Scranton every five days in April, 75 pitches every five days in May, 90 pitches every five days in June and call him up for the second half of the season targeting 15-17 starts of 100 pitches. If they try to get 25 starts of six innings or more they are playing with fire.

    Under this plan Pettite is # 4 and Hughes/Aceves/Kennedy et al compete for # 5.

  13. yankee2005 January 26th, 2009 at 8:36 am

    Hey Pete

    How come you are so quiet about the whole Joe Torre thing? Embarrased to say anything about your hero?

  14. Eric Oz January 26th, 2009 at 8:39 am

    Joba pitched approx 40IP from the pen and 60IP in the form of starts. Its foolish to assume that an inning out of the pen is equal in wear and tear to an inning during a start. The warmup and recovery process is entirely different. His 100IP in ’08 was more than meets the eye, and im willing to back Will Carrol here and say Joba is ready for upwards of 150.

  15. Betsy January 26th, 2009 at 8:42 am

    http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....n-between/

    My goodness, did Joe really feel it necessary to divulge George’s deteriorating condition? That is really, truly low.

    I hate Pavano, but I’m a fan. Joe was the manager – just wow. Is he proud of these actions? This is what he wants people to know about himself? You don’t put your players out there for ridicule, no matter how hated he is.

    Unbelievable.

  16. 86w183 January 26th, 2009 at 8:46 am

    Tampa Bay had two guys make huge jumps last year. Sonnanstine went from 130 innings to 193 and Matt Garza from 83 to 184. Two years ago James Shileds went from 124 to 215, but showed no negative effects last year. Will be interesting to watch, that’s for sure.

  17. 86w183 January 26th, 2009 at 8:48 am

    Joe not only buried his reputation with a lot of Yankees fans I think his current players will no longer trust him, either. Enjoy those pieces of silver Joe.

  18. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 8:48 am

    All others were in attendance. Mike Mussina — whose introduction spurred chants of “one more year!” — thanked writers after winning the Casey Stengel “You Could Look It Up” Award, bestowed upon a player not previously recognized by the chapter.

  19. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 8:53 am

    Betsy -

    I just read those two pieces by Kepner this morning. I am heartsick.

    Joe Torre got paid handsomely for his work here in New York. He was treated with respect and even awe by fans and the media. He was probably retained as manager for a longer period of time than most after the 2004 collapse. Brian Cashman went out on a limb in 2006 to save Torre’s job, at least from what we’ve all read.

    He has ever right to be bitter about how it ended. It was a bad break-up, poorly handled, and he has a right to feel snubbed, if he indeed was, by being left out of the stadium closing facilities.

    BUT

    This is a man whose reputation was built on integrity and class. One reason he was so beloved and admired was his ability to keep the Yankees clubhouse sancrosanct. No one knew, nor did they have to know, all the details of all the interrelationships that occur there. There was no “Bronx Zoo” for the entirety of his tenure. Not an easy task, I would say, given the personalities that came and went there.

    Yesterday I was going to buy the book at Amazon, but held back. I decided that, yes, I’d like to read what he has to say, if only to be fair in having conversations in forums like this, but I do not want to contribute to his wealth.

    Not only was he paid handsomely personally, but he has used the Yankees cache in order to make his foundations/charities very successful financially. My feeling is neither he nor the Yankees owed each other anything at the end.

    I’m glad that Kepner included the excerpts about Pavano (Torre admits to “throwing him to the wolves” – his teammates) and George. It is an illustration of just how dirty he got in this book.

    You know, it’s like a priest in a confessional – you believe that he’s the keeper of all that is private and you shouldn’t have to worry that what you’ve done is going to become public knowledge. I feel Torre has broken the players’ trust.

    Also, I doubt the Dodger will have to worry about the same thing happening there – no one will care enough to buy a book about a second-rate team.

  20. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 8:57 am

    I mentioned in one of the previous entries that I was at the Mussina dinner.

    He said Joba should be a starter.

  21. Gary January 26th, 2009 at 9:01 am

    The 4th starter holds the key. It allows for Joba’s innings limitations to be kept on schedule, and for Hughes to get solidified at AAA and further develop his pitches for use later in the season.
    Aceves can be the long reliever / spot starter and keep the bullpen from burning out.

    Now, for that 4th starter ???????? Who is he and where is he ?

  22. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 9:02 am

    I really liked Joe when he was the manager and had alot of respect for him. I don’t like the way things ended between him and the Yankees but I do think the time had come for a new direction. I am disappointed with some of the things that is reported to be in this book. The one thing that I read that bothers me and I haven’t seen any comment on this is him saying he didn’t know of any steriod use on the team. I find it hard to believe he could be around those players and not know.
    I hate the fact that they used steroids and there is no excusing it but it seems to me that the teams are trying to deflect any responsibility by making it all on the players. Also why is baseball and track getting most of the criticism as if they are the big offenders on this issue?

  23. S.A.-Brian "The Ninja" Cashman: Showing free agents lots of love January 26th, 2009 at 9:03 am

    Michael Kay might be an interesting listen at 2pm today.

    So, how many people here even plan on buying Torre’s book? Put me down as a no. I’ll look for it in the library or take a look at it while in the bookstore.

    I say 140ish IP for Joba this season. Just hope he(and Phil..hell everyone) stays healthy.

  24. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 9:07 am

    S.A. =

    Same here – either library, or I’ll hang out at B&N for a couple of mornings.

  25. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 26th, 2009 at 9:08 am

    Pretty slow so far surprisingly. Unless it’s because everyone involved in yesterday’s melee are nursing their keyboarding finger bruises this morning.

    I still hold to the belief that Aveves is capable of being a quality 5th starter if that’s what it comes down to.

    I’m all for the Yankees signing another starter if they can. I think they will (probably Andy). But if they don’t I do not think it is necessarily the harbinger of death like so many here think. There are not too many other teams I’d even trade our current pitching rotation with right now.

    Most MLB players take a year or two to get acclimated to the bigs. And many R.O.Y.’s do not go on to greatness despite their good first season. Hughes and IK have talent and now some experience. They’ll be better this year.

  26. dave January 26th, 2009 at 9:12 am

    160 is pushing it and asking for trouble. What about the playoffs? He is going to be expected to pitch 160 in the reg season then, more in the playoffs without getting injured? Yeah right.

    Joba’s innings limit would not be an issue as a fifth starter but as a fourth …. there is going to be a problem with the fifth spot very much uncertain. This is why they HAVE TO sign another starter before spring training. The kids will get pushed too hard and get hurt or one of the top three will get hurt and we will not have enough depth to overcome a severe injury while managing innings limits of two pitchers and having to replace them. Lets sign pettitte already so we can actually go into the season ready prepared for problems for once.

  27. gayle January 26th, 2009 at 9:13 am

    I thought Mike Vacarro’s column in today’s Post was pretty spot on and I think expreses what many of us are thinking worth the read.

  28. William Buckner January 26th, 2009 at 9:13 am

    I’d say 160 is as good a guess as any – provided health. What will make things interesting is if they make the post season, how is he used, will they push the limits.

    Heard something interesting last week. there were about 300 different starters last season or about 10 starters per team. It’s critical to have options because you starting five aren’t all making 30 plus starts (that means at some point we will see Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves and maybe others make starts).

  29. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 9:15 am

    Whether or not Joe is the source of what is written in the book his name is on the cover he takes responsibility for what is written in it.

    Whether or not you like/liked any of the players trashed in this book it just isn’t right. I think Joe will feel a lot of negative backlash from this book. “Saint Joe” will forever be tarnished in my book.

  30. S.A.-Brian "The Ninja" Cashman: Showing free agents lots of love January 26th, 2009 at 9:16 am

    Just read that NY Times stuff about Pavano and George from Torre’s book. There are some things I just did not need to know.

  31. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 9:22 am

    I think to try to figure out how each young player is going to perform this season is not very realistic. Every year their is a player that does well that you didn’t expect to. Examples like Wang, Cano, and Small to name a few. Also some you are counting on disappoint.

  32. Mark in Tampa January 26th, 2009 at 9:30 am

    “Hughes and IK have talent and now some experience. They’ll be better this year.”

    That holds true for Gardner as well. I wasn’t really a Gardner fan until late last summer when I saw the energy and speed he brings to the team. Hopefully, now that he has gotten his feet wet, he can relax somewhat, stop swinging at balls over his head, and get on base @.350-360.

    To me, it is very important that he proves this year that he can be the Yankee leadoff man in 2010 and beyond. Damon will almost certainly be gone after this year, Gardner is the only logical answer to take over as a true leadoff. If he can’t do the job, it probably means Holliday in left in 2010, and another plodding softball lineup.

  33. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 9:30 am

    jennifer -

    You’re so right. Most of the stuff, I’m sure, none of us will be too surprised about. That Alex can act like a prima donna, that Pavano was not a favorite teammate, that George is a controller. That is not the point. The point is, a manager is not supposed to give this information out. Just not. It benefits no one. Not even Torre, ultimately, because the good will he loses cannot be measured in dollars and cents.

  34. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 9:31 am

    gayle -

    Thanks for the link to the Vaccaro piece. I guess it does just about sum up what many are feeling.

  35. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 9:33 am

    Why do we need to know that Bernie left his kid at the Stadium? Who would know that? It only makes Bernie look like a bad father.

  36. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 9:36 am

    Mark in Tampa

    I agree with you about Gardner. If he can hit what he brings to this is something that has been missing for a long time. Could be similar to what Mickey Rivers brought to the team. Not saying he will just but I like what he brings if he can.

  37. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 9:37 am

    jennifer -

    I missed that. What happened with Bernie’s kid? And was this another tidbit from Joe?

  38. Joe from Long Island January 26th, 2009 at 9:37 am

    I just looked at the link to the NYTimes piece (BTW, it was Joshua Robinson who wrote it, not Kepner).

    1. In my opinion,if this is the worst of it, then this is a lot of commotion about very little. I think most serious Yankee fans (like regulars on this blog) already know most of this – ARod being a social code, Pavano not being respected by his teammates (remember the flare up with Moose?), George’s declining health, and Randy Levine’s way of doing business. Seems similar to schoolyard tattle.

    2. In contrast, I read Kat O’Brien’s main section story on the book, where she quotes Brian Cashman’s response. Cash, as he seems to always do, takes the high road, says he hasn’t yet read the book, and compliments Torre for the “fantastic job” he did while Yankee manager. You can say that Cash never divulges anything in public, but he never criticizes someone in the press – Torre, players, Randy Levine, the Steinbrenners…nobody.

    It seems to be quite a contrast in styles.

  39. ANSKY January 26th, 2009 at 9:38 am

    I don’t think it’s a ‘rule’ or an expectation that a pitcher making a big jump in innings will get hurt the very next year or the year after.

    These things could take a few years to develop. Look at the poster boy for innings limits on young fireballers – Kerry Wood:

    ’98 – 166IP in 26G
    ’00 – 137IP in 23G
    ’01 – 174IP (+37IP) in 28G
    ’02 – 213IP (+39IP) in 33G
    ’03 – 211IP in 32G (about the same as ’02 – seems to be doing fine, might have been feeling it already though)
    ’04 – 140IP in 22G
    ’05 – 66IP in 21G
    ’06 – 19IP hmmm …
    ’07 – 24IP
    ’08 – 66IP

    The Cubs got about 5 years out of him but he never reached 15 wins before his arm was smoked. He probably should have been averaging over 200 innings (and at least 15 wins) per season since ’04.

    Could it have been ’98? Could it have been the jumps in ’01 & ’02? Could it have been before he reached the majors? Hard to say. Bottom line is he’s a closer now because that’s all that’s left that he can do.

    Seems like a waste, duddnit?

    That should just about cover two Joba arguments at once.

  40. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 9:38 am

    Doreen- I think it was in one of the Times articles.

  41. Joe from Long Island January 26th, 2009 at 9:39 am

    I forgot to mention, you can read Kat O’Brien in Newsday.

  42. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 9:43 am

    Ansky

    Wasn’t some of Woods arm problems due to his pitching motion? I believe I read that somewhere

  43. Yankee2123 January 26th, 2009 at 9:44 am

    Of course Joe Torre wrote a tell all book, trashing his former team, and players. He’s living in Los Angeles, the slimeball capital of the USA. He’s not just a manager, he’s a celebrity now, and doesn’t need to act with conviction because he’s a part of Big Phony Town, CA.

  44. Yankee2123 January 26th, 2009 at 9:45 am

    Prediction: Joba will be in the Pen for good by the All-Star break.

  45. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 9:46 am

    Joe from LI-

    Thanks for the correction. I didn’t even read the by-line, just assumed Times/Kepner. Oops.

    The Daily News also was not as damning as the Post. It stated: “According to a source familiar with the book, Torre does not step out of character. He simply recites the facts as he saw them and does not unfairly disparage the Yankees.”

    I suppose it will be up to each of us to make up our own minds. I still don’t think any of it needed to be written.

    Now, I’ll go look at Newsday. :) (Have to do something while the laundry’s going.)

  46. S.A.-Brian "The Ninja" Cashman: Showing free agents lots of love January 26th, 2009 at 9:48 am

    Doreen here:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01.....f=baseball

    “Joe Torre’s new book, “The Yankee Years,” includes predictable misgivings about the thousands of decisions he made in his 12 years as the team’s manager and some surprising revelations that may make readers scratch their heads.

    For instance, who knew Bernie Williams once forgot his son at Yankee Stadium after a night game and had to call Andy Pettitte to drive him home? Who knew Torre found out he had prostate cancer in 1999 from the Yankees’ principal owner, George Steinbrenner, not his doctors?”

  47. Mark in Tampa January 26th, 2009 at 9:49 am

    A good rule of thumb for these players and managers is that if you wouldn’t write/say something when you are involved with the team, don’t air it later. It looks like sour grapes regardless of the motivation, and just makes the accuser look classless.

  48. dave January 26th, 2009 at 9:50 am

    William,

    Yea, we are going to need far more starters than the top three, Joba and hughes and unless we are supremely lucky, we will need more than aceves and kennedy as well. The problem is who are those pitchers? Coke – unless the injury happens towards the start of the season, he will already be pitching out of the pen, pitching no less than 1 or 2 innings per game. How long can he pitch out of the pen and then, be converted back to a starter immediately? I would not think his innings would be built up as his long-term usefulness is as a reliever. So unless I am mistaken, we are going to be relying on some pitchers like geise, jackson, wright, Sanchez, Horne, Marquez and whoever else is hanging around none of whom i would be particularly confident innning.

    Especially since both Joba and Hughes will have to be replaced at some point. And 160 innings is too much for just the regular season and joba as the fourth starter MUST pitch in the playoffs – so it is not 160 regular season innings. IT is more likely 160 innings total. If we pitch him 160 and then, another 20, we are raising his innings by 80 from the prior season and risking severe injuries in subsequent seasons. And how much has kennedy exactly proved in the majors? I mean his numbers are the minors are excellent but so was tyler clippards. Kennedy showed some great stuff in 2007 but that was in only 3 starts. Last year, he was ineffective through nine starts pitching to a 1.92 whip. I know he has improved over winter and in the minors last year but is he really ready now to be relied upon to pitch effectively at the major league level? Because he will essentially be forced to pitch at some point no matter what happens if Joba and hughes start off in the rotation. And still further, is hughes ready to make the leap to the majors or is he being rushed in his development once again?

    I love how they were so careful with both Hughes and Joba and now that they need innings – they may throw all the rules at the window. From Joba rules to increasing his workload by a minimum of 60 innings and probably more and hughes went from the prize prospect with pitch counts and innings limits in ever start to being rushed to the majors last year because we needed arms which resulted in almost immediate injury. If hughes is not ready now, he should not be pushed and if joba cant throw 160 innings this year plus playoff experiences, he should not be pushed. These two are our future and they should be protected as such.

    No matter what hUGHES WILL have to come up at this point, so we might as well start the season with aceves and joba in the rotation and send hughes to triple A calling him up when the need arises. At the very least, aceves does not have an innings limit so why not take advantage of that and start him to begin the season? Hughes will still be the first one called up but at least he will have some time in triple A to continue his development. Finally, signing another pitcher really solves every one of these problems. Joba becomes the fifth starter rather than the fourth with the top four all capable of pitching 800 innings combined rather than closer to 700. Only joba needs to be replaced during the season rather than both the fourth and fifth starter. The depth becomes Aceves, Hughes and Kennedy with everyone else at least ninth in the depth chart. Aceves strengthens the pen and bcomes our spot starter, long reliever, backup for injury. Hughes can continue to develop for as long as he needs and eventually come up to replace joba and injuries but only when he is ready. Kennedy does not have to be relied upon at all unless the yanks get into a bind and that wont happen until at least the middle of the year most likely if at all which is good because kennedy should not be relied upon to pitch at some point unless he is fully capable. Our top five starters also go from pitching around 800 or so to closer to 1000. And best of all, we most likely never have to rely on triple A talent unless three starters go on the dl at once and we dont have to worry about any of the top starters being completely ineffective.

  49. Tom B January 26th, 2009 at 9:53 am

    I’m sorry to post this here, but I just read the Chasing 800 Guest blog, and I have had enough of this Joe Torre apologist garbage….

    “It’s no coincidence that the year he left, the Yankees failed to make the playoffs and the team he went to go manage, the Dodgers, went to the LCS”

    I’m getting really tired of this, you know… most team’s that win 89 go to the playoffs, and certainly should not look at it as a bad thing if that isn’t enough wins to make the playoffs.

    The Dodgers won 82 games in 2007, finishing 4th in their division. In 2008 they won 84 games, A WHOLE 2 MORE GAMES GO TORRE, and won their division.

    Seriously, the nonsense about Torre needs to stop. Baseball manager has to be the most overrated position in sports management.

  50. pat January 26th, 2009 at 9:58 am

    Doreen

    The Pavano thing was also a little unsettling to me. Many mocked Pavano for his parting shots but after reading that, maybe some of them were with merit.

    I have a hard time with the Joe Torre didn’t rip anyone because the book is a narrative. If you tell the story and someone else puts it in their own words, you still loaded the gun. Having someone else fire it still makes you guilty of at least being an accomplice.

    Seems like the excerpts released so far only take aim at the easiest targets. The ones that people feel safe picking on. Maybe it’s the mom in me but those are the ones I tend to defend more to even it out.

    Finding a prima donna in the Yankee clubhouse isn’t exactly like trying to find a needle in a haystack. I wonder how many guys in there would even have a clue about things most of us would think of as routine. How many would know what it costs to mail a letter or to have a shirt dry cleaned. There’s a big reality contrast that many are probably guilty of but few are accused of.

    Johnny came out in the NY Post today and said Alex is a good teammate and we have his back. Hopefully more will support him the same regardless of their personal feelings.

    Joe

    There is no such thing as alot of commotion meaning little when it comes to Alex. The NY media is like the old EF Hutton commercial. Someone says Yankees or A-Rod and they stop in their tracks to listen. Torre lived it for years. Him thinking this would be seen as anything other than a rip begs the question of why didn’t he say it at the time when it would have been his mess to clean up and not one he left behind.

  51. dave January 26th, 2009 at 9:59 am

    Tom,

    Also, if torre lost his ace, third, fourth and fifth starter for the year as well as his starting catcher and left fielder being his number five and six hitters – would he have even made the playoffs? Especially with both the rays and sox winning close to 100 games and us playing them 17 times each. I dont think even the supernatural abilities torre had would help us last season. And cash’s weakest off season was last season as well with our biggest signing being latroy hawkins who was a flatout disaster. Our midseason acquistions of nady and marte pretty much failed as welll with the yanks last season – playing far below their pirate numbers.

  52. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 10:01 am

    Thanks, S.A.

    The NY Times also had more of a book-review style article which made it seem a little blander. It says the books talks more about the decline (after 2001) than the ascent (1996-2001) and it seems, based on this review, that Torre wants to make sure it is clear that it is because of his stewardship in those dynasty years, in combination with the particular players, that made them successful. That it was the Yankees’ front office fault for going after the wrong type of player (in one way or another) that caused the fall.
    (My take on the review.)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01.....ref=sports

  53. Pel January 26th, 2009 at 10:04 am

    Does anybody love these new Torre quotes that are totally in context and not in the third person?

    But, wait… don’t we have to read the book to fully understand what these quotes mean?!

    Because these quotes just don’t make any sense, right?

    It sounds like he’s saying one thing, but he really means something else?

    The direct quotes completely captures Whorre’s passive aggressiveness.

    What’s for dinner? Crow, you say? Delicious.

  54. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 10:04 am

    Joba won’t be in the ‘pen for good by the AS Break. You don’t put a kid with 3 plus pitches in the bullpen.

    He will pitch 140-160 innings this year and pitch very well.

    Re: Torre, the point that many of us were trying to make (in various forms) yesterday was, you don’t write a book like this if you are Joe Torre.

    This is a guy who spent years cultivating his image. In fact, much of how/what he feels about Arod can be said about himself. WAY too image conscious. To write a book like this makes him look very small. Whether folks want to believe it or not, it diminishes his star.

    Joe Torre is not the first person to have issues with George Steinbrenner, Brian Cashman, players, management, etc. It comes with the territory when you do business with the Yankees. That’s how its been under George Steinbrenner.

    In fact, and this may come as a shock to some of the younger readers in here, he was treated like GOD compared to all of the other guys who have managed the team during the Steinbrenner years. He was also paid more money than ALL of the managers COMBINED in Yankee history.

    My point is, this was not a hostage situation. Joe Torre could have moved on many times in his Yankee career. Yet, he stayed.

    He stayed because he LOVED being, “Joe Torre, Yankee Manager”. That’s a brand that made him a ton of money, on and off the field.

    “Joe Torre, Dodgers manager”? Just ain’t the same thing, both on and off the field.

    The problem became this…..he wanted lifetime credit for leading the team to 4 WS championships while he was Yankee manager. In other words, he wanted professor emeritus status.

    Can’t handle a bullpen? No problem, I’ve got 4 rings.

    Spend your days entertaining VIP’s? No problem, I’ve got 4 rings.

    Come to the ballpark later and later? No problem, I’ve got 4 rings.

    Consistently lose the strategy battles in the post-season? No problem, I’ve got 4 rings.

    Only “problem” is, as the distance between having those “4 rings” gets wider, and your bank account continues to grow, management wants a little more in return.

    Therein lies the rub. Joe wanted the cash. He just no longer wanted the BS that went (and ALWAYS went) with taking George’s money.

    From his point of view, I can see his point. From the Yankees point of view, his JOB is to win rings. Sounds cold but, as one Ex-Yankee told me many moons ago, “You take his (George) money, you take his #$#%”.

    That’s the way it goes.

    Its nice that Joe had his surrogates say, “Its a third person book” yesterday, while in damage control mode.

    Sorry, that doesn’t cut it. His name is on the cover in bold print. Believe it or not, its HIS narrative.

    One of the key tenants of being a leader is to accept the responsibility that goes with it. If you are going to have your name in bold print on the cover of the book, its YOUR story and not a third person narrative. Man up and say it. Don’t spin it as if you have no idea what’s in the book. That’s BS.

    He will make a few more million for his book, which can pay for fuel and maintainence for his jet for a little while.

    What he will lose is the last vestiges of fan support from a lot of Yankee fans who bought into the entire act.

    In a way, it will make it easier for Girardi this year. He won’t be compared any longer to “St. Joe”, unless he decides to run his mouth about what goes on behind the scenes.

    Ego is a dangerous thing people. It sometimes makes you do stupid things.

    This book was a very stupid thing for Torre to do at this point in his career.

    Can’t wait to see how many Dodger players decide to confide in him now.

  55. Pel January 26th, 2009 at 10:06 am

    >Torre wants to make sure it is clear that it is because of
    >his stewardship in those dynasty years, in combination with
    >the particular players, that made them successful. That it
    >was the Yankees’ front office fault for going after the
    >wrong type of player (in one way or another) that caused the fall.

    Take the credit for the winning. Blame the losing on somebody else.

  56. Mark in Tampa January 26th, 2009 at 10:08 am

    Isn’t Joe Torre a racist anyhow?

    Signed,
    Kenny Lofton and Gary Sheffield

    J/K

  57. Yankee2123 January 26th, 2009 at 10:08 am

    The biggest keys to the rotation this year will be how Wang bounces back from a broken foot, and if Burnett can pitch the way he did last year, or better. I wouldn’t count on Hughes at all, and he can only be a viewed a a pleasant surprise if he comes up and pitches well for us this year. Joba will be on a short leash, and would have more impact coming out of the pen, than in the rotation.

  58. Mark in Tampa January 26th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    Dave,
    Stop using SJ44′s name!

  59. Yankee2123 January 26th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    Mark my words, Joba will be in the Pen this year setting up Rivera at some point.

  60. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 10:10 am

    dave

    I think what you said about all the guys they lost to injury is true but I think it also had a bearing on how the rest of the players peformed. Also you have to take into account the adjustment that Nady and Marte had to make changing leagues. I think last season was the Murphys Law of a season for the Yankees.

  61. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 10:12 am

    I have to 100% with Tom B’s assessment.

    Torre won 84 games last season, the Yankees won 89 (in a MUCH tougher division).

    So for the Dodgers making the playoffs i say congrats to Joe. HOWEVER, to somehow say that makes him the key to Yankee success is ridiculous.

    And honestly, if our friendly NYC Media wants the Yankees to even win a championship again, they need to back off A-Rod, let the man play. We dont need 9 more years of A-Rod bashing.

  62. Yankee2123 January 26th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Hopefully the Donna can get Arod’s mojo working this year.

  63. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Bravo SJ bravo.

    One thing I want to point out to you, he can’t use the excuse that he didn’t know what was in the book. Tom already said Joe read it, re-read it, and re-read.

    I agree, he name is on the book he owns what ever is written in it, whether or not it came from him. He has no business trashing players. We all know Alex is needy, do we need to read that from the former Yankee manager. And I’d be willing to bet that Jeter doesn’t go and get his own coffee, he probably has the clubbies get it for him to. But because he is Jeter he is protected.

  64. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 26th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    “Take the credit for the winning. Blame the losing on somebody else.”

    - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -

    Right from “The Politician’s Handbook,” Pell.
    And agreed, SJ. As I said yesterday the whole thing boils down to the tenant that you don’t talk out of school. You would think with all his years as a player, coach, and manager, that Joe would never have violated that. Why he did this is mystifying. Still can’t wait for his response.

  65. randy l January 26th, 2009 at 10:18 am

    joba chamberlain could not go 11 starts last year without breaking down.

    those are the facts.

    he has a history of injury problems.

    he has not been developed slowly and steadily.

    joba should be brought along slowly and steadily giving his body a chance to strengthen the weak links in his body. (a pitcher doesn’t break down in 11 starts if he doesn’t have them)

    being able to throw a lot of innings is something that develops slowly over years.

    it doesn’t happen in one year.

    i think if joba makes 20 starts with the yankees, they’ll be ahead of the game.

    joba could be the best pitcher in baseball in a few years or a bartender in a strip club in omaha.

    it’s up to the yankees to take the long view with him.

  66. S.A.-Brian "The Ninja" Cashman: Showing free agents lots of love January 26th, 2009 at 10:20 am

    Good post SJ44

  67. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    SJ44

    I read a book about Torre a number of years ago and I think one thing that I got from it was how much it meant to him to be managing in the city where he grew up. I think he got alot of privilage in the city for the position he held and what he had accomplished.

  68. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 10:23 am

    SJ44 -

    I was thinking much of what you wrote regard the “I’ve got 4 rings” approach.

    It’s almost as if the Yankees did Torre a disservice by NOT firing him after 2004. Because it really made him bullet-proof. I almost (ALMOST) can’t blame him for feeling he had a life-time position, because there were no true repercussions for the team’s 2004 debacle and the subsequent failures to get past round 1 of the playoffs.

    And as mishandled as the final offer was, I think it was a misguided attempt by the Yankees to say, Joe, we still want you, BUT, we can’t reward you for the last several years. A long extension and a raise would have been a reward and the question would be for what? He had been rewarded for the successes, and never really held accountable for the misses.

    Ah. Whatever. We all know the Yankees are an imperfect organization, not the Garden of Eden.

  69. rodg12 January 26th, 2009 at 10:24 am

    Stay classy Joe Torre, stay classy. Wasn’t that what your whole reputation was built upon, class and integrity? Throw that out the window. Take shots at the organization that took you as a HACK and turned you into an ICON, paying you millions upon millions along the way. Maybe now we know why he wasn’t honored at the stadium closing last year. Maybe the Yanks already knew this book was in the works. Just a stupid, stupid childish move by Torre with this book.

  70. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 26th, 2009 at 10:26 am

    Doreen

    Exactly.

  71. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 10:28 am

    The only injury history i have found on Joba is two bouts with tendonitis, one in college and last season. That hardly qualifies as a bad injury history.

  72. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 26th, 2009 at 10:29 am

    “Ah. Whatever. We all know the Yankees are an imperfect organization, not the Garden of Eden.”

    - – - – - – - – - – -

    Thank goodness, Doreen. Can you imagine Joe wearing only a figleaf?

  73. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 10:29 am

    Well, he is scheduled to appear on Letterman the day the book comes out (2/3), but that’s not going to be an in-depth interview, and it will be very Torre-friendly.

    I can only guess that the book signing at Yogi’s museum will also be Torre-friendly.

    I don’t think Torre will be subject to the grilling that would normally accompany such a book because he will in LA and Arizona for the foreseeable future. Which is not to say he will not have to answer ANY questions, but you’d have to admit that not being in the NY metro area certainly allows him some leeway.

  74. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    Ugh! Torre in a fig-leaf – no, thanks! :lol:

  75. William Buckner January 26th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    Torre as manager reminds me of something I read about CEO’s. It was something along the line that they shouldn’t stay in the same position for much more then around 7 years. Reason were they would no longer have a fresh voice and ideas and people would begin tuning out to their communication style.

    Torre was the perfect guy to take over a vet team with a few young, accountable type players.

    But for a team that had changed over, it was time to move on. is joe g the right guy? I’m reserving judgment on that. But Torre no longer was, IMO, for many of the reasons listed by SJ.

  76. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 10:30 am

    Does anybody think Derek Jeter could write one helluva book?

    Of course he can and he doesn’t. Why? Because he believes in the old tenet of what goes on in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse.

    Its why players around the game have universal respect for him. Its why players seek him out for advice on playing for the Yankees, handling yourself in the public eye, etc.

    Jeter could give you a laundry list of guys who have sought his counsel on many, many issues. He won’t do it.

    He doesn’t need the ego stroking or the attention it would bring. That’s not his thing.

    He doesn’t do stupid things for money and doesn’t do ANYTHING to tarnish his image.

    Joe Torre could learn from that. There are plenty of things that have gone on with the Yankees in Derek Jeter’s time in NY that didn’t sit well with him. Yet, he has managed to keep his mouth shut, do his job, and maintain what I believe is a Hall of Fame career.

    Its nice that folks want to use Arod as a pinata when it comes to getting their spin out on issues.

    There is a LOT more to the Joe Torre-Arod relationship than the spin Joe wants to put out there.

    There were numerous instances where Joe was a backstabbing, lying SOB to Arod for no good reason.

    But hey, he can go on his book tour and spin it anyway he wants. I hope Arod does what he has been told in this situation. Say nothing, make light of it, and move on knowing that you know what’s true and what isn’t true.

    Like I said earlier the real “winner” out of all this is Joe Girardi.

    He no longer has to live up to a mythical figure whom most folks now realize doesn’t exist.

  77. Joe from Long Island January 26th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Doreen – What perfect organization is there? In this world, at least.

  78. Mark in Tampa January 26th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    Just out of curiosity, and maybe I am missing something; but how was Cashman supposed to have Torre’s back in that final meeting? They DID offer him a contract, right? Was he supposed to demand more on Torre’s behalf? Doesn’t Joe already have an agent? Was Cashman supposed to sacrifice his own job defending a guy who was turning down an offer to be the highest paid manager in the game? Somebody tell me what I am missing.

  79. randy l January 26th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    “It’s a much larger book about the Yankees,” Verducci told the site. “Not only how the game changed around them, but the growth of information analysis, revenue sharing, growth of intellect in front offices, changes in Red Sox ownership, the Steroid Era, etc.”- espn

    why wouldn’t anyone who’s a yankee fan want to have this kind of inside info about the yankees?

    i guess maybe because there’s no mention of an increase in the intellect of yankee fans.

  80. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 10:37 am

    Joe from LI -

    None. None, whatsoever. :)

    I have no problem with the Yankees being an imperfect organization. I love them both in spite of and because of their warts.

  81. Barry Lane January 26th, 2009 at 10:38 am

    None of the revelations so far, with the exception of Bernie Williams’ son, is in fact a revelation. Not really. It is, andhas been, out there, if one is willing to see it. That Torre very likely made a mistake co-authoring this thing is meaningless. There is, and will continue to be, ongoing problems in the clubhouse, not because of the book, but because of the personalities involved. It will make for a fun and entertaining summer, and the team should still by pretty good.

  82. pat January 26th, 2009 at 10:39 am

    SJ

    You seem to know people who know people, was Buster Olney’s version of the plane ride to A-Rod’s press conference accurate?

  83. Rick Carpiniello January 26th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    We’re going to debate Joe Torre’s book over at our Faceoff blog:

    http://faceoff.lohudblogs.com/

  84. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 10:43 am

    I have to vent briefly about the comments people make on MLBTR about the Yankees buying everyone. If we wanted to buy everyone: Sheets, Dunn, Manny, and a bunch of other guys would be yankees right now. Paying for 3 players in a market of 100 doesnt constitute buying the off season.

  85. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    randy

    I’m not sure you can read this book and come away knowing that what you read was totaly factual. It depends some on if it was written with an agenda. Also what you get from it could depend on what side you want to take.

  86. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    randy l =

    Some of what’s in the book sounds as if it could be interesting, even enlightening. I think, for me, the problem arises with the motivation for writing such a book. This book, in my opinion, is not being written so that the Yankees will say, “aha, that’s how we can be better!” since Torre no longer works for them.

    It is a book written to undress the emperor, so to speak. To expose the flaws of an organization that Joe Torre once spoke of so proudly, and of which he enjoyed being a part.

  87. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    I should be more specific – written to embarrass the Yankees.

  88. Joe from Long Island January 26th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    Doreen – Loving someone in spite of their warts is the truest sign of love – at least, that’s what my wife keeps telling me. (I guess a smiley face would go here, but I don’t know how to do those emoticons; never been interested in finding out, I guess.)

    Off to the doctor’s appointment.

  89. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    Just got to read the latest in the Times and I will say that I now officially consider Torre a large, grotesque, fraudulent POS. Before today I just thought of him as a bitter whiner because of what happened with his tenure. Now I see him as a fraud, a huge-egoed zero who managed to schmooze his way with the press and therefore ended up with a HUGE following and a love fest bar none – you know that the press can either kiss or kill, and in Torre’s case he had them wrapped tightly around his nose-picking finger.

    Torre showed who he was from jump street, during the first season, when he told Michael Kay not to ever “FN” put him in a position to answer questions about his moves during a game, in front of the team. Then we all know about the players whose epitaphs were written by Torre if they ever talked to the press about things that happened in-house.

    GOOD GOING JOE! THIS ISN’T TALKING TO THE PRESS ABOUT THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN-HOUSE, IS IT? IT’S TALKING TO THE WHOLE WORLD.

    There will be lots of discussion about whether Torre did great things as a manager, and I will absolutely give him his due for putting up with George Steinbrenner as long as he did and keeping his cool in the process. But as far as I’m concerned he was always a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and one who managed away a lot of potential big wins.

    Anyway, I’m sure I will be reviled by the blog master for really coming down on his god, Joe Torre. And I will likewise likely take hits from the Torre tap dancers.

    My bottom line is – continue to love him, to worship him, to appreciate him, to think the book is just fine since this is the “age of transparency” – whatever the hell that means.

    But deal with the fact that there are people out there who will have the opposite opinion of Saint Joe – and we have that right also.

  90. Pel January 26th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    >why wouldn’t anyone who’s a yankee fan want to have this
    >kind of inside info about the yankees?

    I’ll gladly download it for free.

    ========

    BTW, mlb.com is streaming Game 2 of the 2000 WS right now if anybody is interested.

    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....b&v=2

  91. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Oh yeah, I know it’s in “the Post”, but I liked it anyway.

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/01.....152050.htm

  92. randy l January 26th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    sj44-

    i’m curious about the position you’re taking with torre’s book and what it means about torre the man and his ability to get player loyalty in the future. i’m not saying you’re wrong, but i clearly don’t see it the way you do.

    besides arod, who is torre throwing under the bus? torre is probably expressing the mlb player consensus about arod. if it’s just arod , then i don’t think dodger players who feel the same way will lose respect for torre.

    as i said yesterday, i agree torre is breaking an unwritten rule, but sometimes there’s the exception to the rule. arod certainly is an exception to the rule as a player. there’s no one like him.

    i think it’s entirely possible that torre actually will get more respect from players because of this book. he may be simply saying what they already think.

    as far as bernie forgetting his kid, that sounds more funny to me than anything. plus when i was a kid, my parents would “forget” me lots of times, but i would always find my way home( even when they tried to move before i got back).

  93. DT January 26th, 2009 at 10:56 am

    SJ44 – Excellent 10:04 post.

    Why can’t people accept the good with the bad? Just because Torre won 4 championships doesn’t mean he is beyond reproach.

    It’s the same in all venues I guess. Al Pacino was a great actor. One of my favs. If he puts out a clunker movie (and he has lately) does that mean he can’t be panned?

    McCartney was a great Beatle. When he went on to form his Wings group… ahhh… not so great.

    Sometimes the halo tarnishes. It’s life.

  94. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Randy,

    The “changes in the game” spin from Verducci doesn’t represent that much of the book. Its also not what got Torre his seven figure advance. That’s BS.

    The book is Torre’s narrative on his life with the Yankees. That’s most of the book, not the statistical analysis changes in the game.

    If it was, Torre wouldn’t be involved since he rarely used the info he was given.

    Pat,

    What has Buster said about that plane ride? I will tell you what’s accurate in it if I knew what he has said publicly about it.

  95. Wave Your Hat January 26th, 2009 at 10:59 am

    Random Monday morning thoughts:

    While Torre was manager, the Yanks won the World Series 4 times, went 6, and made the playoffs 12 times. He’s going to the Hall of Fame because of his work here as manager. While I’m sure that swelled his ego enormously (he wouldn’t be human if it didn’t), that’s certainly earned him the right to say whatever he wants to say in a book, and we as Yankee fans ought to refrain from being too harsh about it until at least someone here has read it.

    That said, it was time for Joe to go. The team needed new management.

    Reports are that the Mets are going to increase their current offer of $30MM/3 years to Perez. If that’s so, it’s more evidence the Yanks are lowballing Andy.

    The Yanks can win without signing another veteran starter, but signing one (like Andy) would make it easier.

    If the Yanks have only $10-$15MM more to spend, would it be best spent on another starter, or on CF and the bench?

  96. Tarheelyank January 26th, 2009 at 11:02 am

    Trisha

    You might be happy to know that I am officially disappointed. I actually agree with a lot of what I’ve read that’s been quoted. BUT, The timing is just awful. 10 years from now maybe it’s ok, not now. Now it’s a Dodger talking about my Yankees, and he can kiss …

    I joked yesterday that Torre was just trying to motivate Arod, but I really hope it has that effect. Maybe his teammates will actually rally around him this time. I hope so.

  97. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    WYH -

    I say starter. CF will work itself out – Melky and/or Gardner could be adequate. If they keep Nady and Swisher, isn’t the bench already pretty good?

  98. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 11:05 am

    I think the Yankees and Joe both did things that made each look selfish and egotistical. Why is that such a suprise? So many owners will do what they want to because they can. Managers that have sucess like Joe and then have a dry spell don’t think they are the reason. Being the manager of the Yankees is a high profile job and you need a certain amount of ego to do that job.

  99. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    Tarheelyank -

    I agree about the timing. If what he wanted was a true reflective work on his time with the Yankees, the perspective of a few years farther away from the immediacy, from the hurt feelings, from all of it, would serve the book better. You can even say the same things, but the perspective of a few years changes the tone, and perhaps you even have something to add.

    But now, it’s just an attempt to capitalize on his hurt and make a lot of money.

  100. RER - 98 January 26th, 2009 at 11:08 am

    If the truth be known, Torre became complacent and content on or about the 2002 season. After all, he had 4 rings already. In effect, he stopped managing in the true sense of the word. He thought he had a push button operation and George would always provide the necessary talent on a whim.
    He completely misjudged what George’s failing health would do with the hands of the team squarely in those of the sons.
    Brian Cashman was able to make a case for farm production and started doing so.
    For as long as the rules exist, the Yankees will continue to build the team through free agency, farm developed talent, and sensible trades.
    The game had passed Torre by and he never remembered the days when he was a TV analyst for the Angels with a less than stering record as a manager of the Braves, Mets, and Cardinals.

  101. Steve B January 26th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    “If the Yanks have only $10-$15MM more to spend, would it be best spent on another starter, or on CF and the bench?”

    Starter, hands down. Can never have too much pitching. A 200 IP pitcher is a need in my mind.

  102. Wave Your Hat January 26th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    Doreen,

    Right now the Yanks have no middle infield/third base back-up. If Cano doesn’t bounce back (I know, we all think he will), or if Jeter or ARod gets hurt, the fall-off in production will be huge. And if Posada can’t catch, the fall-off in production will be huge. So, while Swisher/Nady does give us a bat on the bench, which is good, our bench does have issues.

  103. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 11:12 am

    Randy,

    Manny Ramirez is VERY tight with Arod. If you think Manny is going to give Torre any respect after this, you got another thing coming! lol

    Manny will treat him like dirt. As he should.

    There really isn’t any “exception to the rule” when it comes to clubhouses. You don’t do what Torre has done and then pronouce yourself “old school”. He isn’t. He’s a sellout, plain and simple.

    Not everybody on the team hates Arod. Far from it.

    Is he, as Pete would say, “socially awkward”? Yes. Can he be a diva at times? Absolutely.

    But, so can Joe Torre. In fact, Torre is EVERY BIT the diva Arod can be. Let me tell you one of the BIGGEST problems in that clubhouse Torre’s last couple of years in NY, and something he didn’t do a damn thing about…..

    You had two factions in the clubhouse…..the guys with rings and the guys that didn’t have rings.

    The guys that had rings, “Joe’s guys”, got treated differently than the guys who did. Everybody

    There were some exceptions. Moose being one. However, Moose was a guy who had universal respect in the clubhouse from all the players. Joe couldn’t screw with him.

    Arod? That’s an easy target, so Joe could screw (and he did) with him.

    Giambi, Damon, some of the pitchers, and many others, had at one time or another gotten dissed by Torre. Yet, those guys kept their mouths shut and put up the “front” that “St. Joe” was everybody’s father figure in the clubhouse.

    That was FAR from the case.

    Joe is no saint. Those of us who know it, and took a lot of grief for it on this blog when he left as we wrote about some of the stuff, now feel a little vindicated as some of this stuff becomes public.

    Some of the failures of the post-season, most notably 2004 and 2006, lie at his feet because of his HORRIFIC in-game managerial mistakes.

    He knows it too. Its much easier to blame Arod (everybody “hates” Arod, right?) for it than to man up and admit your mistakes.

    That’s why I’m glad he’s gone and if you polled most of the guys in that locker room, they would tell you the same thing.

    Its also why I hope they move on from Pettitte.

    This team doesn’t need any more drama and any more BS.

    The Dynasty Years are over and its time to turn the page.

    The remaining guys from that era, Jeter, Rivera and Posada, are the right guys to stay. Both from a character and baseball perspective.

    The rest? Come back for Old Timers Day and let’s move on from the past.

  104. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    Tarheel, thanks for giving me my due on this and not attacking my very strong message. I would have much rather eaten humble pie on this one and found that the Post’s rendition was totally inaccurate. Because it would have made the whole thing into something more innocuous.

    I have had my issues with Arod in the past, and I have gotten on him (though never turned against him entirely – though I’ve come close) – but I can tell you what this has done for me. Arod will now have one of his loudest advocates for the rest of his tenure.

    I don’t think it’s possible that I could have loved or bonded with the Yankee organization any more strongly; but if it was possible by inches, Torre just caused me to be their mustard plaster for life. He attacked what we all love the most – and for what?

    Welcome to spring training, Yankees. Hey what did you think about the things Joe Torre said? Did you know that all of your teammates were calling Arod “Afraud”? Do they still feel the same way?

    I’ll tell you what flabbergasts me the most – a book signing at Yogi’s museum.

    Torre is a schmoozer beyond belief. Hopefully this totally backfires in his face.

    HEY DODGER PLAYERS! I’D KEEP THINGS CLOSE TO THE VEST KIDS. YOU HAVE A SNAKE AMONGST YOU.

  105. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    WYH -

    Was Cody Ransom supposed to be infielder relief? Not saying he’s great, but just asking is that the plan as of now?

    I know Molina backs up, plus they got that other guy for AAA that can step up, but that would not address a drop in offense, as you say.

    Isn’t one of the issues for the Yankees, though, that getting a really great utility guy is difficult because players like Jeter and ARod almost never miss a lot of time, so why would they come here unless they’re overpaid to sit on the bench a lot?

    But, given the choices of CF, bench or 4th starter? I still say starter.

  106. Peyton Horton January 26th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    I think your right on the dot pete….

    Can someone please tell me what the little nickname Al and other broadcasters would use when jeter gets a hit oppo.. drawing a blank this morning

  107. Steve B January 26th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    “If the truth be known, Torre became complacent and content on or about the 2002 season. After all, he had 4 rings already. In effect, he stopped managing in the true sense of the word”

    Was he anymore complacent than the rest of the management/front office people??? Seems to me they collectively got a little lazy, maybe a little impatient, and began putting together teams built to win 95 or so games in the regular season but not necessarily 11 in the postseason. This is especially true of the ’05 thru ’07 teams. You could be right about Torre, but he was not alone. From Cashman on up, the organization veered away from what was working in the late 90′s.

  108. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Wave,

    Once again in your attempt to raise the market for Pettitte, you misread it. Perez has no impact on Pettitte’s situation other than reducing by one another team that could make him an offer.

    They can’t be “lowballing” him when the only offer on the market Pettitte has is from the Yankees.

    Until he has another offer from somebody, they aren’t increasing his offer.

    If he chooses to retire, or take less money to play elsewhere, that’s his choice.

    The Yankees can’t be Andy Pettitte’s personal ATM just because. There has to be some logic to all this.

    If you are already the highest bidder on the market, for a guy with many limitations at this point in his career, you don’t raise your position.

  109. no.27 January 26th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    I don’t understand the idea that Joe Torre needs apologists. It’s clear that some people need to get reminded of his achievements and how rare what he did in NY is. That’s not being a Torre apologist.

    The only people in the discussion when talking about what Torre did during his run in NY are the best in their sport. I asked people yesterday to list coaches in ANY sport that had a better run than the one Torre had in the Bronx.

    For the NBA the responses were Red Auerbach, and Phil Jackson. Scotty Bowman was the one coach mentioned from the NHL. The NFL’s coach was Chuck Knoll. Pat Riley, Bill Belicheck, and Tony LaRussa were also mentioned, but I’m not sure any of those guys have done for 1 team what Torre did for the Yankees.

    And I completely understand that Torre didn’t do it by himself, but neither did any of those guys. The difference is that the other guys get trophies named after them, not dogged by the fans of the team they won with.

    I’m also not defending the book, because I can’t figure out what the story is that he’s trying to tell based on the promo quotes that are in the media right now. People are allowed to jump to conclusions, but you’d think that someone that has as much success with the Yankees as he did would get a little more slack from the fans.

  110. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Angel Berroa was signed to be the backup middle infielder. He will compete, and most likely beat out, Cody Ransom for that spot.

  111. no.27 January 26th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    To be clear, when I say:

    “Pat Riley, Bill Belicheck, and Tony LaRussa were also mentioned, but I’m not sure any of those guys have done for 1 team what Torre did for the Yankees.”

    I’m only talking about Riley Belicheck and LaRussa, not the guys mentioned about them.

  112. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Thanks, SJ44 – forgot about Berroa.

  113. Wave Your Hat January 26th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    Doreen,

    Cody Ransom is, right now, the back-up unless its Angel Berroa. Neither one are going to help you much offensively if they have to play any substantial amount of time. And we all saw what happened when Jorge went down last year. Plus, CF is likely to be below average, perhaps significantly so if things don’t break right.

    There’s a theory that a run scored is as good as a run saved, so I can see at least an argument of investing money on CF and the bench. But, as you point out, there’s not a lot of good bench or CF options out there.

    As one of the founding members (self-appointed)of the Andy Pettitte for Yankee Pitcher Campaign, though, I do tend to agree with you that getting another pitcher is the best course of action. Andy’s right there – the Yanks will make a mistake if they don’t get him.

    SJ44 -

    I think it’s pretty clear what you think with regard to Andy, and it’s also pretty clear I disagree I disagree with you.

    It’s also pretty clear no one on this blog wants us to start this up again.

    Let’s leave it at that.

  114. Betsy January 26th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    By the way, Sweeney is on WFAN (I’ve only caught part of the interview) and Joe/Evan asked about this Jeter thing.

    What Sweeney said basically is what we already knew – they dont hang out like they used to, obviously, but they are often playful with each other and certainly cordial. They have gone out a couple of times……..So, the Jeter/A-Rod thing really has been put to rest (but we knew that last year) and the SWF reference is rather stupid at this point.
    I don’t think Jeter will appreciate his relationship with A-Rod being brought up again.

    By the way, per WFAN, Heyman is reporting that the Yankees are very close to signing Andy Pettitte…..

    SJ44, are you concerned about the bench as far as utility infielders go ? Berroa/Ransom – not very palatable choices.

  115. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 11:24 am

    “The Yankees are in serious talks with Andy Pettitte, and there is a lot of optimism a deal will get done, SI.com has learned.

    Both sides are working hard to push through a one-year contract. Indications are that Pettitte will receive less guaranteed money than the $10 million the Yankees originally had on the table for two months before he turned it down.”

    -via Jon Heyman

  116. Steve B January 26th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    No 27:

    I find Torre and Jackson’s situations to be very comparable. Both guys inherited a pretty good to great situations and superb talent, where managing personalities was as important, if not more important, as the actual game management.

  117. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Bench – Swish, Gardner, Molina, Berroa and?

  118. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    http://www.fannation.com/si_bl.....h-pettitte

  119. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 11:26 am

    Steve B

    One question I have about your thoughts in regards to if management also got complacent is how the transition went from George to Cashman and Hal and Hank. There may have been a gap in the transition were people knew a change needed to happen but wasn’t sure when. George was such a strong personality you couldn’t just push him aside.

  120. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 11:27 am

    ‘SJ44, are you concerned about the bench as far as utility infielders go ? Berroa/Ransom – not very palatable choices.’

    Berroa is basically a defensive stud, he can hit a bit as a utility guy, use to be a very above avg. player and then fell off the planet. Ransom is iffy he’s going to have to compete and there is this kid named Kevin Russo that will be his competition.

  121. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    no. 27, I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but it is because I am a fan that I am giving him no slack. I am a fan of the New York Yankees. Joe Torre is no longer a part of that organinization. I think he has imposed himself back in the ugliest of ways. More of the quotes are coming out, and it appears the earliest fears have been realized. I think of this as totally vengeance of his part. Unfortunately he sacrificed a lot of people in the process of continuing to try to draw blood.

    My opinion. Whatever his legacy is/was as a Yankee manager, he has really managed to sully it with this book. I will continue to say that I understand that people write their memoirs, and they write tell-all books, and some of the stuff isn’t really pleasant reading. But when someone does it one-year out of a situation, while he is still managing and in a position to really hurt people still in the game, then his motives become entirely suspect.

    And about Phil Jackson – here to me, at least, is a big big difference. Jackson had left the game, and he left on his own terms. He chose to come back. The situations were entirely different. And so then, to me, were the motivations for writing their books.

  122. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    ‘Bench – Swish, Gardner, Molina, Berroa and?’

    Swish won’t be on the bench, how do you bench a 30/90 type guy ? who if he bounces back like people think is a high OBP % player and is one of the top 10 players in baseball in P/PA. They’d trade him before he’d ed up on the bench.

  123. no.27 January 26th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    “Just got to read the latest in the Times and I will say that I now officially consider Torre a large, grotesque, fraudulent POS. Before today I just thought of him as a bitter whiner because of what happened with his tenure. Now I see him as a fraud, a huge-egoed zero who managed to schmooze his way with the press and therefore ended up with a HUGE following and a love fest bar none – you know that the press can either kiss or kill, and in Torre’s case he had them wrapped tightly around his nose-picking finger.”

    You are a bad joke.

  124. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 11:31 am

    Michael Kay will be a very interesting listen today. There is no love loss between the two of them. He won’t hold anything back.

  125. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 11:32 am

    Ok Swish may start in RF, then Nady sits. Nady is also a 25/80 sort of player.

  126. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    The backup infield positions is much ado about nothing.

    When you have a team like the Yankees, where the four infielders play the majority of the games, its nearly impossible to get a Ty Wiggington-type of guy to play for you.

    Those guys want AB’s and there simply isn’t enough of them when Arod, Cano, Jeter, and now Tex play the majority of the time.

    You have to go to the Ransom’s and Berroa’s of the world and see if they can help.

    Those jobs are built for older players because they know how to prepare themselves for limited duty.

    You can’t play the “what if Jeter, et al” gets hurt game. If somebody gets hurt, you deal with it.

    Very few of the better bench players in the game want to play for the Yankees because they know their playing time would be next to none.

  127. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    Hey, Swisher or Nady-it’s a nice problem to have.

  128. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    “Both sides are working hard to push through a one-year contract. *Indications are that Pettitte will receive less guaranteed money than the $10 million the Yankees originally had on the table for two months before he turned it down.*””

    :D

    If the Yankees bring Pettitte back, I will root for him as hard as I root for every other Yankee player. But if this report is true, I have to admit that it will have done my heart good to see Pettitte blink first. IF the report is true, it is also true that the Yankees down-graded their offer after Teixeira was signed – AS WAS FIRST REPORTED IN (SHUDDER) *THE POST!!!!*

    :lol:

    GO YANKEES!!!

  129. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Oh and I think Joe better watch with his skeletons. I wouldn’t be shocked to hear stories coming out about him.

  130. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    jennifer -

    So, can we say that Joe Torre has officially opened mud-slinging season with his book? No more holding back out of deference and respect or whatever? :)

  131. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 11:35 am

    “You are a bad joke.”

    TORRE is the bad joke. I am good fan. Of the Yankees.

  132. GreenBeret7 January 26th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    randy l
    January 26th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    as far as bernie forgetting his kid, that sounds more funny to me than anything. ***plus when i was a kid, my parents would “forget” me lots of times, but i would always find my way home( even when they tried to move before i got back***

    ————————————————————

    Most kids would get the hint when the parents went into the Witness Protection Program.

  133. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    The Yankees don’t need to get into any kind of war of words with Torre. What good will it do anybody?

  134. randy l January 26th, 2009 at 11:36 am

    “It is a book written to undress the emperor, so to speak. To expose the flaws of an organization that Joe Torre once spoke of so proudly, and of which he enjoyed being a part.”

    doreen-

    one fundamental way that i look at thing differently from you and a lot of other yankee fans is that i don’t look at yankee management as equivalent to the yankees.

    we’re not supposed to bring politics into the discussion, but this analogy best expresses my position. i do not equate george bush, dick cheney, donald rumsfeld, and karl rove as being the united states. i look at them as some people who got control of the united states.

    criticizing them was not equivalent to criticizing the united states, just as criticizing cashman, hal, hank, and levine is not equivalent to criticizing the yankees.
    i live my life with ” question authority” as a fundamental belief.

    torre throwing arod under the bus is different though because arod is not management and was a player under torre. i’m reserving judgement on that until i read the book.
    as far as criticizing the management and ownership, i have zero problem with that.

    just as an aside to yankee concern, while some have wondered what dodger players will think about this book, i think dodger management may even be looking closer at it . maybe they are the next management that gets exposed.

  135. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    no. 27 – I don’t get your problem pal. Nobody is telling you that you have to stop kissing Torre’s butt. So stop telling me that I have to bow down to him. I’ll send kleenex your way if you are really having trouble with this.

  136. Steve B January 26th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Maine Yankee:

    The Yankees are a billion dollar operation. Somebody has to run it. If issues existed over who’s calling shots and who’s reponsible for what, that can’t be blamed on Torre. That’s an organizational failure.

  137. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Dorren- I think so. Like I said people might not like Alex, but I think they won’t like the ‘tell all’ feel to it. They might actually come out in support of him, and reveal things.

  138. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    It is always best to let sleeping dogs lie, isn’t it?

    Well, the if the Yankees do sign Pettitte, can we stop our collective worrying at least for the next 2 weeks? :)

  139. vin January 26th, 2009 at 11:38 am

    “Bench – Swish, Gardner, Molina, Berroa and?”

    That would be it. Seems like the Yanks always go with 12 pitchers – add the 4 guys mentioned above, and you have 9 guys remaining. Those are your starters (with Melky in CF).

    Seems to me, that this year will be make or break time for both Melky and Cano. I personally think they’ll get back on track.

  140. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    “The Yankees don’t need to get into any kind of war of words with Torre. What good will it do anybody?”

    Absolutely none. And I have to believe that the Yankees will take the high road because there is nothing to be accomplished by doing otherwise.

    I’m still really bothered by the notion of a book-signing by a Yankee traitor to be held in the Yogi museum. But I guess that’s Yogi’s right. Oh well.

  141. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    “Seems to me, that this year will be make or break time for both Melky and Cano. I personally think they’ll get back on track.”

    I agree.

  142. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    I wonder what Dave will write about now?

  143. randy l January 26th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    “Most kids would get the hint when the parents went into the Witness Protection Program.”

    gb7-

    funny you mention that. when they did that it took me the longest to find them.

  144. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Oh god the buffoons on wfan. don’t think he is responsible for what is written in the book.

    Does the cover say, by Torre and Tom in a third person account????? NOOOOO So he is responsible for what is written.l

  145. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    I can’t believe how many people are still brain washed by Saint Joe Torre.

    They don’t get it. He allowed this information to be revealed to the public. It seems now that many of the beat writers knew that he was called A-Fraud. They didn’t reveal it. FOr some reason Joe felt the need to reveal it.

  146. pat January 26th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    SJ

    Been a long time but the gist I got was, Olney said that Jeter and A-Rod flew together and Jeter laid out the ground rules for what Alex could and couldn’t say about their relationship among other things. What should have been a great day turned into a principals office visit before the plane landed and led to A-Rod tip toeing around the clubhouse to follow the rules he perceived that management was in agreement with.

    When people bring up A-Rod coming clean in ST about their relationship, it makes me think that was an up yours to the rules set in place 3 years before and I wonder if I’m right or projecting that.

  147. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Exerpts of Torre’s book are on si.com now…

  148. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 11:45 am

    ‘then Nady sits. Nady is also a 25/80 sort of player.’

    He’s going to get traded.

  149. Andrew January 26th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    “Well, the if the Yankees do sign Pettitte, can we stop our collective worrying at least for the next 2 weeks? :)”

    No way, then the worrying will shift to center field and how Melky or Gardner starting there most of the time will keep the team from reaching its full potential. There will be clamoring for Randy Winn or Andruw Jones or some one of that ilk. It will be great.

  150. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    I’m intrigued by the “third person account” spin that has come up in the last 24 hours.

    How can it be a “third person account” when Joe’s photo and name are highlighted on the cover? It makes no sense.

    Its HIS account as to HIS experiences and observations with the Yankees.

    My take? They are shocked at the negative way the excerpts have been received and are in damage control mode.

    I think their feeling was, “everybody hates Arod and the Yankees” so they probably felt leaking these excerpts would help sales.

    Instead, the backlash has been mostly negative.

    I don’t think they expected that, hence the “its only a third person account” spin that we are now hearing.

    Mike Vaccaro wrote a terrific column in the Post on this issue. Its a must read, IMO.

  151. matt January 26th, 2009 at 11:48 am

    Pettitte Yankees in serious negotians for under 10 mill a yr.

  152. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    ‘FOr some reason Joe felt the need to reveal it.’

    It’s not like Joe doesn’t know how the press in NY is, he knew what he was doing, I can’t believe people are like what did he do wrong ? Ummm. ALOT !

  153. m January 26th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    randy l,

    Did your parents “forget you” because you wouldn’t shut up about the Yankee suits? ;)

  154. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    I dont think Nady gets traded if Pettitte is signed (unless they are planning for the future in the OF). Perhaps if people still think Lastings Milledge is worth something, we can tade with Washington.

    I do believe Cano has gotten the memo that he needs to focus. We will see with Melky.

  155. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    “I’m intrigued by the “third person account” spin that has come up in the last 24 hours.

    How can it be a “third person account” when Joe’s photo and name are highlighted on the cover? It makes no sense.

    Its HIS account as to HIS experiences and observations with the Yankees.”

    Absolutely on the money, SJ44. I also agree they didn’t expect or anticipate this negative backlash. If they did, maybe they would have used the same cover photo and cut in a photo of Verducci with his arm around Torre!

    ;)

  156. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 11:53 am

    Steve B

    I wasn’t blaming Torre for that, just wondering if there was a gap in the transition that might explain your thought about management getting lazy or complacent.

  157. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    randy l -

    Criticism can be a good thing. Lord knows, I’ve done my share of it. And, again, there’s nothing inherently wrong with criticizing Cash and crew – not by Joe Torre or any one else. Believe it or not, I don’t agree with everything Yankees management has done over the years.

    But I question, again, the motive.

    Fans’ criticism is like hitting one’s head against the wall or screaming into deaf ears – we have no impact. At least in politics we get to vote and if we do so intelligently, we can hope to help affect change. Not so in the world of sports fandome. We can air our grievances, but in the end, we root for the team that is put on the field, for better or for worse. We can stop going or stop watching if it gets realy bad, but it has to get REALLY bad, don’t ya think? :)

    Torre criticizing Yankees management now – what does it accomplish? No, they didn’t handle every situation well – and neither did he. It comes across, to me (at least at this point – I reserve the right to re-think this after reading the book) as nasty and self-serving. It will not cause Yankees management make any changes. If anything, they’ll probably stop questioning (if they ever did) whether or not they did the right thing at the end with Torre. Or perhaps they knew him better than we did – well, they certainly knew him better than I did. We now know that both sides are capable of being petty.

    From what little I’ve read, the anecdotes are not too terribly surprising, but, it’s not content that counts here. It’s the fact of it even being done.

  158. m January 26th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Has anyone been to that other site? Weren’t they Torre haters? They had a picture of Torre and some sheep? Zzzzzz

  159. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    ‘I dont think Nady gets traded if Pettitte is signed (unless they are planning for the future in the OF). Perhaps if people still think Lastings Milledge is worth something, we can tade with Washington. ‘

    He’s getting traded.I wonder if they’ll trade him to Atl, Pitt or Was… Nady for McClouth would be eh…can you steal Jordan Scahaffer + from Atlanta when his stock is low ? or a Milledge + more from Was…Is SF interested ?…Who knows. Nady is a Boras guy, his contract is up after this season, he’ll get traded.

  160. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Pat,

    That plane ride was more of two guys airing out their issues than it was Jeter giving Arod “rules to live by”.

    Actually, the Jeter-Arod friendship is the most poorly reported issue about the Yankees these days.

    They get along fine. Do they hang out together like they did 10 years ago? No. Do they spend time together on the road? At times they go out to dinner together and hang out. They don’t do it all the time though.

    Jeter’s closest friend on the team is Posada. They spend a lot of time together on the road.

    Re: Arod and Jeter, its just different than it was when they were younger. Both guys have different interests and are at different places in their lives.

    They aren’t enemies and they get along MUCH better than reported by some.

    In fact, I would argue they have gotten along better the last couple of years. Like it was like when they were younger.

    Its just that Jeter isn’t a guy who lets people in easily. When he does, and you abuse it, you are shut out. That’s his personality.

    Overall though, their relationship is fine these days. It not a cause of concern and it hasn’t cost the Yankees a single game in their time together.

  161. JohnC January 26th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    Hopefully, they will get this deal done with Pettite and then they can officially end their pursuit of Sheets. Already have enough of an injury risk with Burnett in the rotation. Would still love to see them sign Juan Cruz for the bullepn though. Don’t like Edwar Ramirez.

  162. Steve B January 26th, 2009 at 11:56 am

    Does “less than $10M guaranteed” imply $8M – $9M with innings incentives that can bring him to say $12M-$13M???

  163. m January 26th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/

    Recap of Verducci and Kobe on dan patrick show. The audio clips will be up later.

    Check out what Kobe said about Alex.

  164. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Synopsis from Barnes and Noble, presumably it is written by the publisher (?), no where does it say a THIRD PERSON ACCOUNT!!!

    Here, for the first time, Joe Torre and Tom Verducci take us inside the dugout, the clubhouse, and the front office in a revelatory narrative that shows what it really took to keep the Yankees on top of the baseball world.

  165. gayle January 26th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    ok just read the excerpt on SI.com.I dont think Cashman will have such a good feeling about Joe after reading that. I am sure he will take the high road as he seems to be doing but not sure Torre calling him and saying that the quotes in the POst were not in context as the exact part of the book is totally in context and Joe doesn’t have very nice things to say about Cash.

    Also I wonder if SI is going to run other exerpts so we can see the third person that is referred to by Verducci. There certainly is no third person from the excerpt today.

  166. randy l January 26th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    ‘”Did your parents “forget you” because you wouldn’t shut up about the Yankee suits?”

    mel-

    ” wouldn’t shut up” may have been mentioned a few times : )

  167. Brad January 26th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    It was be interesting to see the reception Torre gets when he appears on Letterman’s show in February.
    I suggest he’ll find a chilly audience. He’ll then squirm and say the book is much ado about nothing.

    Too late Joe, the quotes are there for all to see.

  168. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    2 pages from The Yankee Years”:

    “Joe Torre began the meeting with that simple question. He was sitting in the Legends Field office of George Steinbrenner. There was a time, as recently as only 24 months earlier, when Torre could look the Boss in the eye and propose that question, and he would get an answer that would let him know exactly where he stood. But Steinbrenner ­wasn’t the Boss anymore; he was the aging patriarch of a seven-man tribunal. His family members and front-office lieutenants went through the exercise of playing to tradition and formality, anyway. Steinbrenner sat at his desk and the others sat at the table that ran lengthwise away from his desk. There was Torre, of course; and Steinbrenner’s two sons, Hank and Hal; George’s son-in-law, Felix Lopez; team president Randy Levine; chief operating officer Lonn Trost; and general manager Brian Cashman, who sat behind Torre’s right shoulder.”

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....ml?eref=T1

  169. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    jennifer -

    Actually, not only does it not say it’s a third-person account, but it calls it “a revelatory narrative.” Okay, then.

    Can I ask a silly question? The midges game – was it in September or October? I thought October, but the book blurb says September.

  170. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    Brad -

    Isn’t the Letterman audience mostly out-of-towners? I think it’ll be just peachy for Joe inside the studio.

  171. Brad January 26th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    ** will be interseting **

  172. no.27 January 26th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    I don’t think I’m kissing Torre’s butt, and I’m not telling anyone to bow down to him either.

    I just don’t understand how a “large, grotesque, fraudulent POS that is also a fraud, a huge-egoed zero” who also happens to be a nose picker could somehow manage to win 4 World Series rings when only 7 other people have won more than 2. Maybe you should have added “amazingly lucky” into your description?

    I can understand people being upset about him writing this book, but only the most controversial bits of the book have been in the media so far. I am sure that there is a lot more ink in Torre’s book talking positively about A-Rod than negatively.

    What happens if Jeter or Mariano come out with a similar book when they retire?

  173. DT January 26th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    I don’t see Torre PR smoozing his way out of this one. (like normal)
    Of course, there are sheep everywhere. Heck, there are even some sheep in the press corps.

    At least Canseco had an excuse when he wrote his book. He was broke. He was selling off anything that was locked down.

    What is Joe’s excuse for writing this book?
    He isn’t broke. I think that will be question #1.
    Why Joe Why?

    He could of at least waited until he retired, but hey sometimes you have to screw people when the iron is hot.

    The backlash will continue. Maybe he can say he’ll give his profits to the Safe At Home charity to fend off his bashers.

    Angel Berroa – uni #6 is available if you want it.

  174. GreenBeret7 January 26th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    randy l
    January 26th, 2009 at 11:40 am
    “Most kids would get the hint when the parents went into the Witness Protection Program.”

    gb7-

    funny you mention that. when they did that it took me the longest to find them.

    ————————————————————

    Well, the Feds never could keep a secret. Morning Randy. Hope all is well in the “Icebox”. Time to get my air conditioner serviced.

    Mel, I think it was Randy’s constant whining to have his family adopt Livan Hernandez that made them run.

    j/k, Randy…I think

  175. m January 26th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    randy l,

    haha!

    Brad,

    Isn’t the environs of the Ed Sullivan as cold as a meat locker? I hope the majority of Dave’s staff are Yankee fans. Give him non-Bigelow tea or something.

  176. m January 26th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    GB7,

    They were probably wondering why their 5-yr old son kept shouting, “Live On!”

  177. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    Midges was in October. Playoffs vs. Cleveland Game 2.

  178. YankeeRay January 26th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Sorry all for being from the school of redundancy school but every day points more and more to signing Manny.

    There is no way we keep Nady or Swish to be a platoon player. Now that it looks like we are going to sign pettite, there is not a need to trade Nady for a veteran starter.
    So I go right back to where I started and thats trade Nady and Matsui in a slary dump and sign Manny to DH and play occasional OF when we rest Damon or DH Posada.
    That gives us the most flexibility and best line up we could have.

    Add in that signing Manny would piss of Torre and the Dodgers and thats just a bonus but not a reason to sign him.
    Pissing off Gammons and the nation fans is a reason to sign him lol.

    You have all seen my many reasons to sign Manny and the key here is it plans for the next 3 years as next year we won’t have to replenish the OF and pay Holiday Manny type money.

    Manny and Arod will be what Jeter and Arod are not. He will be fine in our clubhouse and Girardi will learn to lighten up or we will bring Donnie in here as he is fine with Manny.

    Other than the payroll, try and tell me why Manny doesn’t fit with us now? The payroll will work itself out after Pettite and Damon go away next year as we will get younger and cheaper in the OF and on the mound.

    This is the way to go and we will be looking at a 3 year run.

  179. Frankie speaking . . . January 26th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Maybe cooler heads prevail or the Hendricks brothers cames to their senses.

    http://www.fannation.com/si_bl.....h-pettitte

  180. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    no. 27 -

    I want to be your cyber friend. I am not getting down on you. So please listen to what I am saying here.

    If Torre wrote the book when he retired from baseball, though maybe I wouldn’t have appreciated his writing it, I could certainly deal with it a lot better. The timing of this whole thing couldn’t stink more. That to me makes his motivation entirely suspect. That is what I am responding to.

    Is all.

  181. RayVTNC January 26th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Torre was not handed a team built by Buck & Stick!

    1995 Team
    SP McDowell was the ace & he left.
    SP Melido Perez & he left
    C Stanley was Catcher & he left.
    1B Mattingly was at 1B & he left.
    2B Kelly was at 2B & he left.
    SS Fernandez was at SS & he left demoted.
    LF Polonia was the leadoff hitter & he left.
    U Velarde was Utility & he left.
    Also lost Danny Tartabul.

    Joe Torre had the insight to move Rivera to bullpen as a setup. Jeter to SS. Put Duncan at 2B & Girardi at catcher. Also had faith in Jimmy Key & brought up Mendoza. Joe Torre was not handed a team in 1996!

  182. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    Yeah it’s too bad that Letterman’s audience is typically out-of-staters. We can probably count on a standing ovation for Torre! Then the general populace that doesn’t understand that Letterman’s audience is typically out-of-staters will think that NY is all for what Torre wrote.

    GRRR!!!!

    (I HOPE David Letterman does his usual thing, though I think Torre is a better schmoozer than Letterman is a “hard questioner…)

  183. PAT M. January 26th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Borroa is going to prove to be a dynamite pickup…..As for the Torre issue, I’ll wait until I read the book….Seems that it’s getting exactly all the hype that was hoped for when the passages were leaked…….. I doubt it’ll be as entertaining as Sparky’s Bronx Zoo or Nettles “” Balls ”……

  184. kd January 26th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    i think sj made a good point, how many dodger players will ever trust torre again? manny will likely be back there, and any good will they had is now over.

    he may have cost himself another clubhouse.

    that said, it’s nice to see pettitte and cashman talking

  185. Tarheelyank January 26th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Hey that’s a good point. Not only can we piss off Theo and friends, we can piss off the Dodgers too!:D I say that’s worth 20- 25 mil. If we hurry we can even knock Torre’s book off the back pages.

  186. rover January 26th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    I hope a deal with Andy is made. He is the logical choice. I don’t see the team investing nearly half a billion only to leave an obvious need unfulfilled. Wouldn’t make sense to me, so I would like to asume it wouldn’t make sense to mangment.
    I think I will read the book before I throw anyone under the bus. I’m kinda sure playing ball for the yanks is not a slumber party and occasionally someone gets their feelings hurt. Some maybe rightly and others maybe wrongly, but hurt just the same.

  187. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Actually, nothing points to them signing Manny.

    If they get a deal done with Pettitte, they are done. They aren’t signing Manny.

    To sign him would mean they would have to move several guys, as well as eat money on their contracts, and they have no interest in doing so.

    Manny will most likely be back in LA with the Dodgers.

    Torre will have the “joy” of managing a pi$$ed off Manny for a full season.

    One could say its poetic justice for writing this book.

  188. randy l January 26th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    “It will not cause Yankees management make any changes”

    doreen-

    i think fans can put a lot of pressure on management by voting with their pocketbooks. i agree it does take avery long time, but the last thing yankee management wants is a disillusionment with them by yankee fans who express that disillusionment at the box office and the cable box.

    in this time of blogs who knows how much power fans really have? look what blogs and the web did for obama.

    i think that this book could be more problematic for the present management if they don’t make the playoffs for a second time in a row. if the yankees would have made the playoffs i don’t think torre would have released it now.

    the fact the yankees didn’t make the playoffs without him makes his point of view more credible. winning for this management changes everything. if they don’t make the playoffs in 2009, cashman and levine are gone, and hal and hand won’t be talking with each other.

    at that point, torre’s book would deserve a second read. if the present management leads the yankees to # 27, then we have a very different scenario.

    i read today that torre judged pavano by seeing him not perform well under pressure at a social occasion. torre is like the old time gunslinger who looks for subtle tells that give away weakness and character flaws.

    i think he knew he had the power right now and he used it. i would not be surprised to see torre back in power with the yankees in some role after this ownership and management is gone.

    in this financial environment, no way hal and hank keep the yankees if george dies. they’ll sell and cash in (george dying is not something i wish for. i actually like the man)

    then torres number will be retired. maybe at the same time as bernie’s. cashman will be
    working for the red sox as an advisor to theo.
    i had to throw that last one in .lol

  189. JoeyA January 26th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    SJ44-
    My one question about this whole thing is, knowing whats in the book, did the people around the book not expect it to be like this? Like they aren’t aware that the media cherry picks pieces of a book to report about?
    IMO, everything that is being said about this book was expected by the people who put it out, including Joe. No publicity is bad publicity and all of this googoo-gaga stuff over A-Rod will only help to sell more.

    I can’t wait to see what his screenplay is about? Taming of the A-Rod?

  190. Tarheelyank January 26th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    “in this financial environment, no way hal and hank keep the yankees if george dies. they’ll sell and cash in”

    I heard Arod is interested. Player/owner

  191. Commish January 26th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    Buster Olney on 1050:

    Andy to sign today. $6M base salary with incentives that could bring it up to $12M

  192. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    One of the temps. at work asked if I want some coffee, what should I tell her ?

  193. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Staying to write the story January 26th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    Guys-

    I have heard from my “source” that Pettitte’s agreed on a $6 million deal with “easily attainable” incentives.

    If I find out more I’ll let you know.

  194. Tarheelyank January 26th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Ask her if she plans on writing a book.

  195. JoeyA January 26th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    So, instead of 10 guaranteed, he gets 6 with incentives that could total 12?

    BRILLIANT!

  196. YankeeRay January 26th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    SJ44
    January 26th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
    Actually, nothing points to them signing Manny.

    If they get a deal done with Pettitte, they are done. They aren’t signing Manny.

    To sign him would mean they would have to move several guys, as well as eat money on their contracts, and they have no interest in doing so.

    ——-

    SJ, you may be right but here is where I argue your point.
    They most likely have to move Nady anyway and a starter in return won’t be necessary if we sign Andy. An OF or IF depth player would be fine in return.
    So all we really have to do is find a home for Matsui and pay a portion of his salary. A low level prospect in return is fine. He is gone next year anyway and Manny is a way better option than he is this year and beyond.

    Once again, its all about the payroll.

  197. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    ‘So, instead of 10 guaranteed, he gets 6 with incentives that could total 12?

    BRILLIANT!’

    That is great news for the price. So slide him in the # 5 slot.

  198. JoeyA January 26th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Clearly, if the incentives are easily attainable, this was just a 2nd offer by the Yankees to save face and not outright say that Pettitte won in acquiring a higher salary of 10M.

  199. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    ‘Ask her if she plans on writing a book.’

    Ha ! good one

  200. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    Pettitte would be #4, not #5.

  201. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    Randy

    I don’t know how long youv’e been a Yankee fan but if you have been for the whole time George has owned the team you can remember times when he did alot worse job building the team than is being done now.

  202. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    m –

    I went to the Letterman show on two separate occasions – once was one of the first show when he moved from NBC to CBS. That studio is FREEZING!!!!

    A cute little aside – that night they did a Letterman goes to Yankee Stadium skit. Well we were sitting in the second row and he had a gym bag in his hand when he went out the side door (and pretended he was on his way to the Stadium.) When he came back inside, he threw the gym bag to me. I was on television! (I had a tape running, of course.) When the show was over, I was proud as a peacock, walking out with my new gym bag. I was a Letterman freak at the time, so the fact that he touched something and I was owning it was huge to me! His flunkies came over and tried to take the bag back and I put up a fight. So they finally let me keep it. I still have it!

    :)

  203. JoeyA January 26th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    Ray-
    Please find me a team that would pay even half of Matsui’s contract for a DH only player that can barely run? AND, he isn’t exactly a guaranteed 25/80 guy anymore.

  204. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    JoeyA those incentives better be about getting 15 + wins and come at the end of the season.

  205. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    ‘Pettitte would be #4, not #5.’

    Saids who ?

  206. gayle January 26th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Where is Wave with his Andy has all the leverage comments if in fact his base is only 6 mill as preported by Olney

  207. GreenBeret7 January 26th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    If the comments about George Steinbrenner’s deteriorating health and mental makeup is traced back to Torre, you can forget about his number being retired as long as the steinbrenner’s own the Yankees. If that is true, that’s a crusher. G. Steinbrenner could be petty and difficult to work with when he was younger, but, he also did a lot of things that he’s never gotten much recognition for. There would be no value in making comments like that, knowing how much embarrassment that would cause G. S. and the family.

  208. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    m –

    I went to the Letterman show on two separate occasions – once was one of the first show when he moved from NBC to CBS. That studio is FREEZING!!!!

    A cute little aside – that night they did a Letterman goes to Yankee Stadium skit. Well we were sitting in the second row and he had a gym bag in his hand when he went out the side door (and pretended he was on his way to the Stadium.) When he came back inside, he threw the gym bag to me. I was on television! (I had a tape running, of course.) When the show was over, I was proud as a peacoc*k, walking out with my new gym bag. I was a Letterman freak at the time, so the fact that he touched something and I was owning it was huge to me! His flunkies came over and tried to take the bag back and I put up a fight. So they finally let me keep it. I still have it!

    :)

    (This was not posting so I thought it might be because the censor didn’t like some word. If it prints more than once, I apologize. I put an asterisk in the word I thought might be the problem…)

  209. Doreen January 26th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    randy l -

    The only thing that will make people stop going to a game or watching on television is an abysmal team. This Yankees ownership will not be fielding an abysmal team anytime soon (at least it doesn’t look that way). As long as the team on the field is competitive, not too many people care how they get there or whether there were missteps along the way.

    And I think in this economic climate, the Steinbrenners are more likely to keep the team. It’s not a good time to sell much of anything.

  210. Al from BK(19 days til Spring Training!) January 26th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    “Joba should pitch about 75 innings, in the pen, setting up Rivera.”

    Mike Francesa, is that you? Seriously get over it hes a starter always has been except for 07 when he joined the pen out of sheer necessity. I say Joba gets 160 as well and spends October in the pen to keep his innings low.

  211. Steve B January 26th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    “JoeyA those incentives better be about getting 15 + wins and come at the end of the season.”

    They can’t be. It’s not allowed by the MLBPA. Incentives will almost certainly be based on innings pitched.

  212. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    By the way, he is adorable in person!

  213. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Why does Nady or Swisher have to be traded? Having some depth would be nice for a change.

  214. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Just got finished reading the “third person” account on SI.com. Does Tom think we are fools, so mostly it doesn’t say Joe Torre said, THOSE ARE HIS THOUGHTS, Tom just put it into words! Who else would have given that account besides Joe?

  215. rover January 26th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    There seem to be those selling Matsui short. A pain free Matsui could be a beast. I’m not in the boat that says move him especailly at any cost. I might be wrong no crystal ball but he has been good way to long to just be worthless and trade bait. Having rebounded from more serious knee surgery albeit at a younger age I think we will likely be surprised at his mobility. He was never fast, but he may well be just as fast.

  216. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    I think Pettitte was holding out so he can have the first presser at the new stadium.

  217. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Oh and according to Joe, the fans started to go to YS because of him. Yeah I loved watching Joe sit and sip his green tea. Yep thats why I went to YS.

  218. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    Ray,

    Its about payroll, which is why Manny won’t be here. They aren’t going to change their team to slot in a 22+ million per season DH.

    6 million base with incentives isn’t exactly 16 million guaranteed dollars. Nor is it 10 million guaranteed dollars.

    Nor is it the “mystery” 3/36 million dollar offer the Hendricks Brothers spun to the media.

    Nor is it, “look at what (fill in the blank) got and Andy is better than that guy”.

    Its what this market allows for with a guy possessing his skillset.

    Once again, Cashman correctly judged the market.

    Andy should have taken the 10=10.5 million and he would have saved himself two months of embarrassment.

    Now? Its a deal one strikes when one is looking to save face and play one more season.

  219. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    ‘Why does Nady or Swisher have to be traded? Having some depth would be nice for a change.’

    Because PT will be an issue. They are 25-30 HR and 90 RBI each, my guess is Nady is a goner.

    “Joba should pitch about 75 innings, in the pen, setting up Rivera.”

    Watsup Diet Coke ! good luck on the show today.

  220. m January 26th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    trisha,

    Great story. And isn’t it amazing how you can type (I have) words that can’t be said on tv, but you can’t say something like, “Proud as a pea….”? haha

  221. S.A.-Brian "The Ninja" Cashman: Showing free agents lots of love January 26th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Well, the good thing about Andy coming back is that if any players forget their children at Yankee Stadium, Andy can drive them home.

  222. JoeyA January 26th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

    Sell the YANKEES!???

    Let’s see, the Cubs just went for $900M, and I don’t believe they have a network like the Yankees have with YES.

    I wouldn’t sell the Yankees organization for anything less than 4.5B and I don’t believe anybody has that kind of money to throw around in these times. Plus, they just built a new stadium. Even if, God forbid, George goes down during this year, they wouldn’t dream of giving up the chance to cash in on this stadium.

    PLUS, Hank and Hal have an opportunity to live up to their fathers legacy in baseball. This team is very much a result of Hank and Hal and Cashman. The team on the field is a product of their hard work. I think they would want to stick around and see how this team cements them in baseball history.

  223. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    I fear that Dave is going to drop a 2000000 word pro-Sheets brick here any time now.

  224. m January 26th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    Great. Here comes the gloating about Andy kowtowing. Why not wait until -you read the book- he signs the contract. :)

    Revenge is best served the next day. Cashman gets back at Torre by signing the missing link to a championship team. Take that, Joe T!

  225. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    Pettitte would be #4, not #5.’

    Saids who ?

    Says logic. Why would you have a number 4 starter on an innings limit and a number 5 starter you got to throw 200 innings?

  226. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Plus, CC at 1 and Andy at 5 mean back to back lefties. no sense.

  227. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Andy will be the #4 with Joba the #5.

  228. jay destro January 26th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3861386

  229. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Randy,

    Joe had no future with the Yankees as long as the Steinbrenner’s own the team.

    Putting out that info on their father was WAY over the line.

    Even if you (not saying “you”, using it as a general term) are the biggest Torre apologist on the planet, some things don’t belong in a book. George’s health being one of them.

    It was classless for a guy who is supposed to be about “class” to have done.

    Look, we all saw George at the ASG. We don’t need a blow by blow here.

    Joe Torre needs to get over himself and take a good look at his managerial record prior to coming to the Yankees. It wasn’t exactly successful nor “classy”.

    Its great he can make off his Yankee experience. Mainly because with Torre, its ALWAYS about the money.

    If I was Hal Steinbrenner, I’d give Angel Berroa #6 and tell Joe Torre good luck in LA.

  230. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    If the plan is to limit Joba’s innings then making Andy the 4th starter is way to go.

    In the end though, what does it matter. Moose was, what, the 5th guy at the start of last season?

  231. pat January 26th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    From the book:
    “For a man who made trust the single most important ingredient of championship teams — trust among teammates, trust from those players in the honesty and integrity of the manager and staff — he could not continue without it. It became an easy decision: He told the seven executives he could not accept their offer.”

    Ah trust. What a concept.

  232. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    P”lus, CC at 1 and Andy at 5 mean back to back lefties. no sense.”

    Joba Chamberlain is probably going to be the #4 the issue w/ Andy was he was asking for 16 million which Cash and Yankees stated many times they are not paying a #5 SP that. That’s what Andy will be. He is the blanket to Joba. And NOOOOOOOOOOO like there has never been LHP pitching back to back 8O

  233. m January 26th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Torre feels justified talking about George’s health/decline. Team doctors (next time, use your own!) told George before Torre could.

    This was in ’98? And he stayed on 9 years or so?

  234. William Buckner January 26th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    If true, Cashman has had GREAT off season. Starting with not offering arb to Abreu, signing top 2 pitcher, and Tex and now vet pitcher in club friendly deal.

  235. S.A.-Brian "The Ninja" Cashman: Showing free agents lots of love January 26th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    For Andy-$6 million, with incentives that could make it worth as much as $12 million.

    Fine by me

  236. Tarheelyank January 26th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    “Andy should have taken the 10=10.5 million and he would have saved himself two months of embarrassment.”

    Maybe not.

    “However, the deal will include incentives that could push Pettitte close to his 2008 salary of $16 million, the amount he was seeking on a one-year deal.”

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....-year-deal

  237. GreenBeret7 January 26th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    #6 will be saved for the next star on the horizon, whether it’s Montero, Angelini or whoever.

  238. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    ‘#6 will be saved for the next star on the horizon, whether it’s Montero, Angelini or whoever.’

    I’ll laugh if Brett Gardner wears that number :lol:

    I could see Montero or Jackson, how about DeLeon in the future.

  239. pat January 26th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    SJ

    Thanks for the clarification.

  240. Ed - American League, prepared to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 26th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    Ok who want to predict what will Dave say against Pettitte in his essay?

    :lol:

  241. randy l January 26th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    ” Hope all is well in the “Icebox”. Time to get my air conditioner serviced.”

    it just occurred to me that the chance of you hunting me down to slice my typing tendons while a winter freeze is going on in cape cod is about as much chance as torre playing golf with cashman, hank ,and hal this winter.

    now without fear of tendon malfunction , i can really let loose and say what i really think : )

    as an aside , this unusually frigid weather is kind of interesting. as someone who has spent most of the last 25 winters in siesta key, florida on the beach, this is different. i hadn’t ice skated on a frozen pond for at least 25 years, and i actually had a great time with the americana scene of a few hundred townspeople out playing hockey, having cookouts on the ice, dogs sliding while chasing sticks. kids harassing each other. etc.

    i was just taking in the scene when someone i knew casually asked me what size my feet were. turns out he had an extra pair of hockey skates to keep which he gave me. no charge. small town stuff at it’s best.

    the only problem was that little 8 year old kid that got pissed when i kept blocking his shots on goal. i’m of the belief that it’s more fun for them if they earn it. he disagreed and told me to go play with someone my own size.

    i told him to go skate with someone who was as good as he was. he gave me a dirty look so i told him to be careful ; i might slip and squash him like a pancake.
    good thing his mom is a friend of mine. she skated over and saved me before the kid attacked.

  242. Steve B January 26th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    “For Andy-$6 million, with incentives that could make it worth as much as $12 million.

    Fine by me”

    Agreed. I’m sure Pettitte can get at least $4M of the incentives with one arm tied behind his back. Probably all $6M. However it plays, it’s a fair and reaosnable deal for both sides.

  243. m January 26th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Alex has got to get rid of the Marino curse. Give him #6. Alex deserves to get a single digit. Then he can be that much closer to his BFF Jeter!

  244. migames January 26th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    SJ44 or anyone else, has anyone read the book?

    if not, why dont we wait to see what the whole book has to say?

  245. Ed - American League, prepared to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 26th, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    “I’ll laugh if Brett Gardner wears that number”

    didnt Brett wore #6 in AA? lol

  246. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    ‘Alex has got to get rid of the Marino curse. Give him #6. Alex deserves to get a single digit. Then he can be that much closer to his BFF Jeter!’

    He’d be use to the boos if he puts on #6 :lol:

  247. Joltin' Joe January 26th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    Torre has a book signing at Yogi’s museum? I reckon they’ll shoot the s**t about ol’ George and all the injustices they’ve suffered.

  248. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    If the Yankees want to really insult Joe, they can sign Steve Sax for a one day contract and let him wear #6 again.

  249. jennifer January 26th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    Anyone thing Hank is calling up Alex and asking him if he wants #6? :lol:

    That would be great!! Huge slap in the face to Joe. Although the Saint Joe people will be booing Alex.

  250. m January 26th, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    migames,

    SJ had an advanced copy. He said something about “creative licence”.

    Check out yesterday’s Today in the Journal News thread. Instant classic. Lighting rod topic.

  251. Ed - American League, prepared to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 26th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    mel,

    giving A-Rod 6 does make sense. He wore #3 with Seattle and Texas, since 3 is retired, double 3 which equals to 6. Lots of player double up their original number if their single digital is either retired or taken.

  252. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    “didnt Brett wore #6 in AA? lol”

    Nope #18 and #91 in AAA…as in I run 91 mph :lol

  253. migames January 26th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    migames,

    SJ had an advanced copy. He said something about “creative licence”.
    ______________________________________________

    Thanks, in which case, your opinion is more than welcomed

  254. Tex's New Best Friend January 26th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Phil Hughes needs a number. I liked the 65. 34 didnt really work for him.

  255. Tarheelyank January 26th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    Give #6 to Billy Crystal

  256. m January 26th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    *license*

    That Verducci audio is up at the link I put up earlier.

    Talking about the third person narrative.

  257. Brandon (CC/AJ/Marky Mark..Sheets ?) Giants loss still stings trust me it does :( January 26th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    “Anyone thing Hank is calling up Alex and asking him if he wants #6?

    That would be great!! Huge slap in the face to Joe. *Although the Saint Joe people will be booing Alex*.”

    And what exactly changes ?

  258. Joltin' Joe January 26th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    Let’s hope Torre’s comments lights a fire under Arod, at least for 1 year, the Yanks meet the Dodgers in the series
    and kick Manny and Joe’s behinds. We can dream.

  259. dave January 26th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    SJ

    Great post. I had a similar sentiment yesterday – i think that while we dont know what is in the book, we know how much joe was praised for his relationships in the clubhouse even if he wasn;t such an “in game” manager towards the end of the line with the yanks. tHE PRESS loved him and praised him for his ability to deal with player problems and handle relationships in the tough atmosphere that is NY. Then, he turns around once he “escapes the yankee persecution” and starts talking about other ppls problems with him and his problems with them and so on. That is not going to do very much to help his image among players in LA. If anything, players will confide in him less on the dodgers always thinking what if he writes another book in the book of their minds. Not smart

  260. NO HYPE January 26th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Opening day 2008 pitching staff:
    Chien-Ming Wang (HURT, SEASON ENDING)
    Mike Mussina (ACE)
    Carl Pavano (HURT, MARGINAL)
    Andy Pettitte (50/50)
    Phil Hughes (HURT)
    Ian Kennedy (SUCKED)
    Mariano Rivera (ACE)
    Joba Chamberlain (HURT, ABOVE AVG)
    LaTroy Hawkins (SUCKED)
    Kyle Farnsworth (50/50)
    Billy Traber (WHO?)
    Brian Bruney (GOOD)
    Ross Ohlendorf (BELOW AVG)
    Jonathan Albaladejo (BELOW AVG)

    Wow, Girardi really had a lot to work with. Add to that list Ponson, Coke, Rasner, Igawa, Aceves and you will see that it stays the same… crappy.

    I couldn’t imagine Torre doing any better than Girardi with that pathetic roster

  261. Ed - American League, prepared to be scared! CC, Aj, and MT!! January 26th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    :arrow:

  262. no.27 January 26th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    Bottom line is that Torre had a hall of fame run with the Yankees. I don’t think this book outweighs that. Some people do.

    Looks like the Yankees are going to end up signing Pettitte to a much better deal than anyone thought they could. Definitely happy about that. I hope he comes into the season strong, looking to prove people wrong and earn those incentives.

  263. Joltin' Joe January 26th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Why can’t the stars align for Arod and have a season like 07 but with us winning the whole thing. This would erase the curse of Alex and the future would be limitless.

  264. GreenBeret7 January 26th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    randy l
    January 26th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    i was just taking in the scene when someone i knew casually asked me what size my feet were. turns out he had an extra pair of hockey skates to keep which he gave me. no charge. small town stuff at it’s best.

    the only problem was that little 8 year old kid that got pissed when i kept blocking his shots on goal. i’m of the belief that it’s more fun for them if they earn it. he disagreed and told me to go play with someone my own size.

    i told him to go skate with someone who was as good as he was. he gave me a dirty look so i told him to be careful ; i might slip and squash him like a pancake.
    good thing his mom is a friend of mine. she skated over and saved me before the kid attacked.

    ————————————————————

    HA!!! Cold weather don’t scare me none. I’m tough. Just ask my poodle and kitty. I always loved living is a small town or rural area. I used to live in Carthage, NY….about 20 miles from Watertown. Cold, but, a great place to live.

    Funny stuff about your hockey game. The kid seems to have that Yankee fan mentality…sense of entitlement…..”I deserve to win because of who I am”. Sounds like you need to have a bodyguard next time you tangle with him. Ankle bites are painful, and he just might bite your hamstring in half He could be related to Spartacus).

  265. randy l January 26th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    ” don’t know how long youv’e been a Yankee fan but if you have been for the whole time George has owned the team you can remember times when he did a lot worse job building the team than is being done now.”

    well, probably since my father was listening on the car radio to dimaggio singlehandedly dismantling the red sox on the july 4th weekend of 1949 while driving my mother to the hospital in skowhegan when i was born, i’d say i’ve been “following” the yankees for a long time.

    george did go through a rough spell, but i had a talk with him and he was fine from then on. to see me talking with george click on :http://inthedirt-baseball.blogspot.com/

    (that was right before security came )

  266. Joltin' Joe January 26th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    verducci on the fan

  267. Joltin' Joe January 26th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    verducci on the fan

  268. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Randy

    If you see someone that isn’t turning blue from the cold it is a RS fan that drinks the red koolaid. lol.

  269. JohnC January 26th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    With Pettite back in the fold, I’d like to see them make one more move. Sign Juan Cruz for the bullpen. WOuld only cost a 4th round pick. Great arm, great stuff. Draft is pretty weak this year, so losing a 4th round pick is no big deal.

  270. JohnC January 26th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    With Pettite back in the fold, I’d like to see them make one more move. Sign Juan Cruz for the bullpen. WOuld only cost a 4th round pick. Great arm, great stuff. Draft is pretty weak this year, so losing a 4th round pick is no big deal.

  271. trisha - CC and AJ and Sheets - OH MY! January 26th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    About #6 – NOTHING would be better than for Arod to wear that number!!! Then if there were boos he could always assume they were boos for Torre.

    About Andy – if he ends up making $16 mil it will mean he has done one heck of a job. What would be better than that?

    I didn’t want him back. If he’s back, I sure as hell want him to succeed!

  272. randy l January 26th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    “If you see someone that isn’t turning blue from the cold it is a RS fan that drinks the red koolaid. lol.”

    you know there were a lot of red faced people out there . good one.

    gb7-

    somehow i think that kid was a red sox fan.

  273. Wave Your Hat January 26th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    hey dave, those posters who knocked you for suggesting that the Yanks could structure an incentive deal for Pettitte owe you an apology, I think.

  274. Wave Your Hat January 26th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    really glad the Yanks are going to sign Andy. Looks like they split the baby after all. It will be interesting to see how the incentive package is structured. If it is based on starts, looks like Andy could get close to what he wanted after all.

  275. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Francesa is asking some good questions. I don’t buy what Verducci’s selling tho.

  276. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    Incentives aren’t guaranteed money. To say a 6 million dollar deal + incentives is a “win” for Pettitte is not understanding the baseball compensation system.

    You don’t throw aside guaranteed money for incentives and consider it a “win” deal.

    He’s getting 40% less in guaranteed money than he would have gotten in December. How exactly is that a “win” for him?

    He left money on the table because of ego. He had no other offers on the table so he couldn’t leverage his situation with the Yankees.

    In the end, he took a lesser contract with incentives to get a deal done.

    Just as in the case of John Smoltz, the chances either guy hits all of their incentives is slim at best.

    He got 500,000 more in guaranteed money than a guy coming off major shoulder surgery.

    No matter how you spin it, that’s not a good deal for Andy, given where he was two months ago in these negotiations.

  277. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    though

  278. YankeeRay January 26th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    JoeyA
    January 26th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
    Ray-
    Please find me a team that would pay even half of Matsui’s contract for a DH only player that can barely run? AND, he isn’t exactly a guaranteed 25/80 guy anymore.

    ——-

    Joey, I am more like you on this in the fact that Matsui is somewhat limited as a DH. Many on this site feel matsui will be a “beast” and will do the job in the 5 hole. If he stays I would bat him 5th against righties and 6th against lefties.
    That said, I don’t think it would be easy to move him but I would take a shot at LAA or Seattle and try and get away with paying 5-6 mm of his salary.
    Manny would fill the 5 hole better than anyone at any cost.

  279. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    Verducci says any Yankee fan should enjoy this book.

  280. YankeeRay January 26th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    Go get Manny and take the f’n spotlight off of Arod already. Enough of that BS.
    Manny will do that and we can win which will remove all aspects of Arod.

    #6 would be funny but I’d rather see Manny wear #6 than Arod as he wouldn’t do that IMO. He’s better off just moving on.

  281. SJ44 January 26th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    Of course he would say that. He is hawking a book.

    The only Yankee fans who will enjoy the book are those who have a pre-determined dislike for the folks Torre talks about in it.

    If you do, its prize winning stuff.

    If you are like me, a “what goes on in the locker room, stays in the locker room” kind of person, you are disappointed that Torre is so bitter he feels the need to sellout.

    Either way, it beats talking about Pettitte and Sheets until spring training begins! lol

  282. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Yes I’ll be glad when Pettite signs so we can put that story to bed. Then when Manny signs with the Dogers we can end that story as well. lol

  283. MaineYankee January 26th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    Yes I’ll be glad when Pettite signs so we can put that story to bed. Then when Manny signs with the Dodgers we can end that story as well. lol

  284. murphydog January 26th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    Talk about shoot first and ask questions later. I’ll read Torre’s book first and then decide.

    FWIW, my take is that Torre’s comments were directed at some pretty easy, multi-millionaire nut-job, “bigger than the game” targets, not the hardworking, quiet, “play the game right” guys. That’s a point that makes a difference to me. To use a crude phrase, Torre wasn’t kicking any cripples here.

    For example, A-Rod has drawn so much attention to himself over the years, with The Contract, strippers, Madonna, the opt out and Boras, that it’s comical to suggest that Torre has stepped out of bounds by commenting on this guy. A-Rod, more than anyone else, made himself larger than life and subject to comment.

    Giambi testified in the BALCO grand jury, apologized without apologizing and fell apart physically – again, an outrageous situation and thus fair game. Ditto Pavano, another outrageous case, a slacker for all time.

    As for Manny, who gives a rat’s tail whether this makes him difficult to manage? Could it really be any harder to get this guy to respect anyone or anything? If nothing else, Manny is all about the money and would respect Torre for cashing in, no?

  285. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 26th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Ray, Ray, Ray…

    Manny ain’t coming to the Bronx. Besides, isn’t it going to be more fun watching him in LA when he decides he isn’t happy with whatever he ends up signing for?

    BTW, that Pettitte guy is a shrewd bargainer isn’t he? lol.

  286. MikeD January 26th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    Consider Joba and Hughes a linked set in some regards. The Yankees will have to factor in additional Joba innings for the play-offs, which means they’ll have to limit him in ’09, with Hughes taking some of his turns in the rotation.

    Joba has an impact arm, so he’s one of the guys they’re going to want to have pitching October baseball. Even if they don’t make the postseason, they have to PLAN to make it, which means 150 IP in the regular season is maximum, and it’s possible 140 IP is more like it. They’re not going to want to go too much past that since he only pitched 100 innings last year.

    How to do that? Enter Hughes. Now that it appears Pettitte is on the way back, they have another innings eater, and that may be one of Pettitte’s most significant contributions in ’09, even if he’s only league average, although I think he’ll be better. We could be looking at something like: CC, 34 starts, 230 IP; Pettitte, 32, 210; Wang, 32, 200; AJ, 28, 175 IP (you have to plan on some time off for him); and Joba 25, 140 IP. That means here’s probably about 10-15 starts the Yankees will need from a sixth starter, and that person is most likely Hughes, perhaps with IPK picking up a few depending on timing. Hughes will start the season in AAA, but will become more important as the season progresses, and as the Yankees prepare for him being in the rotation full-time in 2010.

    If things play out the way the Yankees want, they could enter October baseball with three young power arms starting games: CC, AJ and Joba. That’s something they’ve missed in recent years. And if Hughes looks good down the stretch, it could be that either Pettitte or Wang won’t get much opportunity to start in October.

  287. Brad Pitt's better-looking brother January 26th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Mike D

    It’s a pretty safe bet Wang will be there barring injury.

  288. Kevin January 26th, 2009 at 10:23 pm

    Will Carrol might be good company on this issue, but Ken Rosenthal, eh not so much. He’s like a rumor reporter.

  289. Tom January 26th, 2009 at 11:22 pm

    Just put him in the bullpen to set up for Rivera…that bullpen would be unstopable Marte, Joba, and Rivera. Give Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves a chance for the fifth starter and see what happens.

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