Some things are better left unsaid
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 27, 2009 
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Here are some sub-plots we’ve learned from the The Yankee Years that don’t necessarily reflect well on Joe Torre.
· Torre wanted Brian Cashman to offer Bernie Williams a contract for the 2007 season.
· Torre liked having Ron Guidry as the pitching coach and Cashman did not.
· Torre didn’t like Cashman suggesting lineups based on statistical analysis.
Let’s see, that’s 2-1 in favor of Cashman.
God Bless Bernie, it’s great he wanted to keep playing. But a GM has to make tough calls and that includes telling popular players when it’s time to go. It was time to go. Guidry is a colorful character and was a great pitcher. But his idea of coaching was sipping a cup of coffee and telling stories about Billy Martin. Pitching coaches are the most important coaches on the staff, it’s not a position to give to an old buddy.
Point to Torre on the lineups. It’s not up to the GM to suggest lineups unless the manager is doing something unusually stupid. If a GM doesn’t like how the manager runs the team, fire him. Otherwise stay upstairs.
I found it funny in the book that everybody hated Carl Pavano. It reminded me of the time we were asked to interview him in the hallway because the PR staff was worried what would happen if teammates saw him talking to reporters in the clubhouse. There were a few times you wondered if somebody would take a swing at the guy, the dislike was that thick.
Peter great interview!
As a long time Torre defender and fan I am pissed with him! He is not the SAINT JOE anymore! He is a sour old guy who seeks money and vitriol out of his own problems!
Great to see him in LA ! Eventhough i am not the greatest fan of Joe Girardi at least he is very confidential with his club house ( to a lot people too confidential) . Lets say its true that they used to Call A-Rod an A-fraud , that does not have to go out on the public. If i was a player under Torre now I would try to avoid him because anything i say to him could be in a book the next time he is desperate for money!
Good Riddance Brian Cashman, After this week no Yankee fan will ever miss him even though he is without doubt one of the greatest manager of all time BECAUSE HE IS A PHONY!
“I found it funny in the book that everybody hated Carl Pavano.”
I think the hate is warranted. The guy sat on his tuchus for 4 seasons collecting 10 mil a year when other guys were playing everyday for the league minimum. Guys like Andy and Moose were pitching through injury for around the same salary while this clown partied in Tampa. I think the hate is deserved and I can’t wait til our line-up faces him against Cleveland.
That last thing the Yankees needed was an actual player breaking their hand on Pavano’s granite-lined head. Should have been a job for Rey Negron.
Torre was batting Tony Womack in the 2 hole. Cashman should have been fired if he didn’t, at the very least, ask Torre about batting his worst hitter #2. 3-0 to Cashman.
Seems like these were all professional, business-type, disagreements. Nothing personal, just honest disagreements on how to do business. Is there something wrong that this rates a get-even book?
2.5 to 0.5 in favor of Cashman, really. It might not be his place to suggest lineups, his philosophy on HOW to setup a lineup is sound. Who can seriously argue that using stats is a POOR way to set a lineup?
According to the report, a person close to Rodriguez said A-Rod “doesn’t feel like he had any real relationship with [Torre],” and thus isn’t hurt by anything Torre might have said or written about him in “The Yankee Years.”
“He’s (Rodriguez) just surprised that Torre would talk about these kinds of things because he always told the players the clubhouse and the bond with teammates was sacred, and not to be broken this way.”
Two very interesting parts of a ESPN article covering the book.
You know what, I find it even funnier that people like me couldn’t believe that Pavano could really have been that bad. Oops.
Pete-
Any more details on the Pavano stuff? Inquiring minds want to know
I still can’t even fathom Torre saying anything against the Yankees. This is completely ludicrous. This organization MADE HIS CAREER!!
I wonder if he will feel at all awkward if and when he goes into the Hall of Fame with a Yankee hat on. Will Cash/Hank/Hal be right by his side as he is inducted? Maybe he can wear a Mets or Braves hat and be remembered for his one post season appearance prior to the Yankees.
Good post Pete.
Joey A
then ARod handled this with umpteen times the class that Joe did…
if his response is accurate he responded well.
In the final analysis, Torre will have to assess whether his obsessive attractive to the almighty dollar was worth the damaging blowback.
His reputation, to this point, has indeed been sullied. The comments of his current underling, Larry Bowa, regarding A-Rod (as well as those of many of the more significant present day Yankees) undercut those of the “ex-Saint”.
Pete Abe is to be complimented for his insightful comments.
Ca$H: DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED ON PAVANO?!
Torre: YOU’RE GOSHDARN RIGHT I DID!
Maybe he can go in with no hat on in tribute to the number of playoff games he won prior to coming to the Yankees.
““He’s (Rodriguez) just surprised that Torre would talk about these kinds of things because he always told the players the clubhouse and the bond with teammates was sacred, and not to be broken this way.””
I can understand Alex being upset. Torre broke the number one rule in the game as far as I’m concerned. What is said or happens in the clubhouse stays there. Now Torre breaks that rule over sour grapes, all respect I had for Joe T is gone. I still acknowledge his HOF managerial career but on a personal level the respect is gone.
· Torre didn’t like Cashman suggesting lineups based on *statistical analysis.*
========
To me, that looks like 3 for Cashman. But, it’s definitely debatable.
But if we reward points to Torre for Cashman wanting to play manager, should we deduct points from Torre for wanting to play GM.
I like this game.
Good Riddance Brian Cashman, After this week no Yankee fan will ever miss him even though he is without doubt one of the greatest manager of all time BECAUSE HE IS A PHONY!
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Why is he one of the great managers of all time? Because he was the right guy at the right time? Because he won 4 WS in 12 years? I don’t think that adds up!
Casey Stengel won 5 in a row and 7 out of 12 years as manager. Reporters said things such as, “With that team anyone could have won all those WS rings.” Most never gave him the credit he richly deserved. In his defence CS built that team (with the GM) but…to say he was one of the greats of all time, just a bit of over kill.
Joe T. comes along after Buck Showalter and Cashman built the team that won the ALEast in 1995. 1996 Joe gets the job and Cashman adds the missing parts to the puzzle…Yanks win and go on to win 3 more times until 2001.
So, let’s be real, Joe WAS the right guy for the team at that juncture in time. Maybe a good manager but not great.
I don’t see the Yankees front office initiating any kind of stance on sending Torre to the HOF. If anything, they’ll probably start underhanding it. Only when the rest of baseball clamors for Torre’s induction will the Yankees “front” a ‘Torre should be in the HOF’ stand. At this point on, I wouldn’t be surprised if Torre is considered blackballed by the Yankees management and ownership.
Good stuff, Pete. I too am interested to get more details about how teammates considered Pavano. I suppose to some degree it’s all familiar, but the palpable level of dislike toward him is really something. I’m curious, was it just the sense that he wouldn’t try to work through injuries, or also how some happened? I would have been most miffed (and was as a fan) about Pavano’s hiding his rib injury after hydroplaning his Porsche into a garbage truck. He lied to everyone, probably thinking he was doing something honorable, and couldn’t get out to pitch anyway.
The Yankees may not have wanted to pursue voiding his contract over it, but I would have given it serious thought. Aaron Boone’s basketball injury violated his contract. I can’t help but think that Pavano’s hiding his might have given the team reason to cut his worthless hide. Then again, we might have missed all this good humor the last couple of years without that dung heap.
Alol the chatter aside Pete, ant word on who’s getting moved to add Andy back to the roster. Can’t carry 41 forever.
Can I type? that’s “All the chatter aside, Pete, any…
Here’s one point on Carl Pavano…..
One of the biggest voices for his acquisition was Joe Torre.
Torre met with him in West Palm Beach and gushed about the possibilities of having him on the team.
He wanted him BADLY. As badly as anybody else in the organization.
As we all know, it didn’t work out. What’s a little (no, a LOT) disingenuous about Torre talking about Pavano is that he never talks about himself, with regard to his acquisition.
Its always somebody else’s fault.
I would have preferred he manned up and said, “I like everybody else, was wrong on acquiring Carl”.
Instead its, “poor Joe having to deal with such a bad guy”.
Its passing the buck and its a bunch of crap.
With each passing day, its getting more and more evident the Yankees are better off without Joe Torre.
Can’t wait to hear his spin on all this during the book tour.
All sides will get over thissoon enough.
Most of the book is likely a very poaitive take on Joe T’s NY years, but the capsules will always focus on the juicy stuff.
The Yanks will be more than happy to stump for Joe’s inclusion when the time comes – it’ll be water under the bidge by then.
Many have speculated on his exclusion in closing ceremony, etc., and I’m sure there are still raw feelings, plus lets remember Torre was busy at the time.
But time heals almost all wounds.
“Point to Torre on the lineups. It’s not up to the GM to suggest lineups unless the manager is doing something unusually stupid.”
You mean, like, batting Tony Womack 2nd in the lineup for half a season? Or batting ARod 8th in the playoffs? I wouldn’t give that point to Torre. Cashman had to come up with the Joba Rules because Torre didn’t know how to use relievers. Torre also wasn’t the best at constructing a lineup.
Cashman built the team that won the ALEast in 1995. 1996 Joe gets the job and Cashman adds the missing parts to the puzzle…Yanks win and go on to win 3 more times until 2001.
___________________________________
Gene Michael put that team together, then we had Bob Watson as our GM and then Cashman came in in 98
SJ44
It seems most of his interviews will be soft ball.
Larry King- He’ll reminisce how he knew that ball player and this ball player. He won’t press him about why he violated the code.
Regis- Loves Joe, won’t ask hard hitting questions.
Letterman- Could go either way, but I wouldn’t count on a hard hitting interview. He might ask re: third person account, but I don’t see him pressing the issue.
“One of the biggest voices for his acquisition was Joe Torre.”
is there any chance we can joe torre for the ken phelps trade?
can blame joe torre for the ken phelps trade?
I wonder what will happen if, on Torre’s book tour, he is asked some of the questions that have been raised here. Will he give that person The Stare? Or will the ground rules of such “interviews” be to allow softball-questioning only?
I agree with Peter on all of those points. However, one thing that should have happened was Bernie getting a one day contract to retire from, ala Al Leiter. It could’ve/should’ve happened on the last day of Yankee Stadium. Maybe there’s still a chance it happens this year.
Joe from Long Island
I would love if someone said to him, it seems you take all the credit for winning, and none for losing. Explain!
Brian Cashman was also one of the farm directors when the Yankees drafted, signed and developed guys like Jeter, Pettitte, Posada, etc.
If we are going to play the “who did what” game, why leave out the contributions he made during his time assisting in the operation of the farm system?
That’s what folks fail to realize about Cashman. He’s a Yankee lifer. Its the only job he has had.
He started as an intern and worked his way up, learning every piece of the organization.
Fans cheer “homegrown Yankees” louder than ever because they feel a kinship to them.
For the life of me, I can’t understand the dislike for Brian Cashman from some quarters of the fan base. One would think his Yankee lifer status would give him a little more run with the fan base.
You don’t have to be an insider to see how deep the challenges were in the organization from 2000-2006. He had to put up with a lot of crap and didn’t go public with any of it.
Any mistake was his, if you listen his detractors. Anything that went right, it was luck.
Even this off-season, he signs CC, AJ and Tex, trades for Swisher, and correctly reads the market on Abreu and Pettitte.
Yet, still no credit for it from some.
There are some on here who will argue to death that Cashman didn’t do anything this off-season but “spend money”.
Yet, if he didn’t spend it, they would complain that he is “cheap”.
If you are going to rip him for his mistakes and not give him any credit for his good moves, you have no credibility in discussing his job performance.
why do i always get sick of the most popular topic being discussed here?
last week it was pettitte, not pettitte, other possible 4th starters. now it’s torre’s book.
“Point to Torre on the lineups. It’s not up to the GM to suggest lineups unless the manager is doing something unusually stupid.”
uhh, in your own words….unless the manager is doing something unusually stupid.
do you really think Cashman stuck his nose in when Torre WASN’T doing something unusually stupid?
like putting Bernie in CF and Lofton in RF? or playing Miguel Cairo at FIRST BASE? etc.
of course this happened b/c Torre was doing something unusually stupid.
do you really think Cashman would risk his relationship with Torre over something silly like batting A-Rod 3rd and Sheffield 4th instead of the other way around??
Looks like Posada will be ready for opening day. Fingers crossed.
“For the life of me, I can’t understand the dislike for Brian Cashman from some quarters of the fan base. ”
there are a lot of dumb fans.
some even get to guest blog on LoHud.
3 – 0 … that was precisely the thing. Successful organizations like the Red Sox and A’s have managers that execute the GM’s vision.
And that was the reason Torre was not defended by Cashman.
I guess we all know that when I hook onto an issue that means a lot to me, I do so with a passion (or insert your own word/s here). In any event, it doesn’t happen with a real lot of Yankee issues, or at least certainly not to the extent that I’ve felt about Ian Kennedy pitching for the Yankees and Joe Torre’s book. Yes, I wasn’t an Andy supporter but I really didn’t have any great difficulty with him coming back either. My preference was that he didn’t, but I’m fine with him being back.
Maybe it’s my Italian emotional side, maybe it’s the way I feel about loyalty and traitors, maybe it’s a lot of things. So call me all the names you need to when I say this because I need to say it anyway. I don’t feel like having to dig around in my mental thesaurus to be politically correct. At this point I pretty much hate Joe Torre. I had gone from neutrality to dislike when he had his pity-party press conference and held court at his home. I will admit at one time I drank the Torre kool aid, but that started to disappear when I noticed how he played favorites and how he got rid of Jeff Nelson. Then I knew we were dealing with a different face from the one he also tried to present to the media.
This book has pretty much sealed the deal for me on the Torre years. I now realize I never knew who this person was.
About loyalty? You probably can’t find many more loyal than I. That is the reason that I can put aside my personal feelings and always root for the laundry, unless it appears a player is trying to be bigger than the team. That doesn’t happen very often. I think Torre has spat into the golden bowl from which he used to drink.
I read the projo’s sports editor’s take on Torre’s book. I hate even more having to read this stuff from Red Sox Nation territory. He did a pretty scathing review (deserved) that ended with: “Could you make this up?
No, you couldn’t.
Only in New York, baby. Only in New York”
Thanks Joe. Your cold fish eyes were wide open on this one.
Did Torre say those things or were they written in the third person? (Gutless, Joe, gutless.)
“why do i always get sick of the most popular topic being discussed here?”
I hear ya’. Frankly, I have other stuff on my mind besides Torre’s book too. For example, what if there is a super man, or even super men, living among us without our knowledge? And what if these men have the ability, like the Superman of movie fame, to fly around the earth really fast in a manner that turns back time? If this were to happen, do you think we should consider taking a flier on Ben Sheets to take the 4th spot in the rotation?
well Peter, to me its actually 3-0 Cashman. Torre obviously didn’t know how to put a line up together. how he batted Arod 8th in the first place is beyond me. He also batted Matsui against Sabathia in the first game of the ALDS and then pinch hit for him for Shelley Duncan in the 8th inning. and guess what? Shelley got a double. Torre was not good at line ups either. I’m glad he’s gone.
No, Nick. I think we should just sign Superman then!
I totally disagree about the GM suggesting lineups based on stats.
It’s Torres final call but the GM should be able to voice their opinion. There is nothing wrong as long as Cash doesn’t force the manager to comply.
And who better to bring the forgotten ballplayer’s kids home from the stadium after the game? SUPERMAN!
Since time is not much of a factor to him, think we could get him to sign a very very long term contract? Incentive-laden. If he gets over 1,000 SB’s in a season, breaks Barry Bond’s HR record in a season (I mean the lifetime record!) etc.
Sadly, some people would probably still say he doesn’t hit in ther clutch or something though…
Sign Superman? You mean Superfraud? We don’t need someone who might wilt under the pressure.
It was funny though when Guidry referred to Randy Johnson as a “lost little boy”. That took some huevos.
Wow, Peter…I’m surprised to see you ripping Joe Torre up this way when the book hasn’t even come out yet.
What a clown.
Buster O hit the nail on the head when he said Joe torre’s venomn was misdirected..
if Torre was pissed at the yankee mgmnt, it was classless to point out a-rod as a-fraud to get back at them…
ps
how do you only ‘root for the laundry’?…sounds good in theory, but cant seperate the two( the real people) unfortunately in my mind…
sadly 99% of people are screwed up in some way if put under a microscope…that may be whats so interesting?
“Torre didn’t like Cashman suggesting lineups based on statistical analysis.”
Suggestions are just that – suggestions. A GM should be able to suggest to his manager ideas he may have, especially if he’s got stats to back them up.
This is yet another example of how Torre is a relic and believes in his “gut” over clearly definable statistics.
Yeah, like having Tom Gordon pitch to David Ortiz.
Or Joe’s “He did it for us all year,” mentality with his bullpen, when they were spent by August, and lit up in October.
Baja!! BEST POST EVER (@ 1:04)
Um, I think in the team org chart “General Manager” is above “Manager” and Cashman has every right to suggest or discuss possible line-ups with Torre, particularly when he has the best player in baseball batting 8th. (What was that logic? A-Rod is a head case so let me f’ with his head some more by knocking him down to the 8 spot?)
It is one thing if Cashman is filling out the line-up cards every evening, it is another if he says, “Hey, just out of curiousity, why are you batting that guy 3rd?”
Cashman telling Torre how to write line ups reminds me of Al Davis.
migames@1:21pm…
Gene Michael put that team together, then we had Bob Watson as our GM and then Cashman came in in 98.
==================================
If I remember right (I may not) Cashman was the right hand man of Stick and Watson, they where grooming him for the job because they thought his experience in the drafting/minor system was stellar.
That’s why I put him in with them. When he was appointed to the job, Bob adroitly mentioned the fact; Cashs’ opinion was a commodity both Stick/Watson used judiciously in building the team. Neither one of them wanted the job any longer…let’s face it, George was hard to work with. Stick even said he lied to Geo. a few times…just so Geo. wouldn’t trade or trade for a player.
I agree with the premise that as a GM if you don’t like the lineup then fire the manager, but for how long was that automatic out Tony Womack hitting 2nd??? In that case, you kind of see Cashman’s point.
But yes, Cashman should’ve fired Torre. He should’ve done so immediately after the 2003 World Series.
Hey Trish,
Great post, I agree completely. I used to live in Rhode Island; the ProJo sportswriters aren’t that bad if you can stand the Red Sox bias. The thing that used to drive me nuts is the way that shorten the sports section to only 2 or 3 pages.
Now the closest papers that actually have decent sports sections are the Globe (too liberal for me) or the Herald.
What I don’t like is we don’t know yet when and where the lineup discussion happened. What if it happened in the offseason?
“Brian we have huge wholes in our lineup, we don’t even have a leadoff hitter!”
“Derek can lead off he has a better OBP than many of the people we could sign.”
“OBP we need someone fast! Don’t you know anything about baseball?”
“I totally disagree about the GM suggesting lineups based on stats.
It’s Torres final call but the GM should be able to voice their opinion. There is nothing wrong as long as Cash doesn’t force the manager to comply.”
I totally agree as long as Cashman didn’t force Torre’s hand and just made suggestions, I don’t see anything wrong with it. Furthermore, you don’t think Torre made suggestions to Cashman over the years about acquiring this or that player.
Trisha,
If your the same Trisha I knew on the NYT forums, you’ve come a long way now ripping on Torre now.
Not having Bernie in 2007 was a good decision, really?
Cashman-the-money-ball-Theo-wanna-be studied all his stats and discovered that it was better for the Yankees’ Opening Day roster to have FOUR players– wait, how many– FOUR PLAYERS WHO COULD PLAY 1B– GIAMBI, MINKY, PHELPS and CAIRO- (and wait don’t forget Andy Phillips on the DL)- FOUR OUTFIELDERS and NO CONTRACT FOR BERNIE.
Yeah, that was a smart decision. Cashman, go back to college and take a statistics course before you start citing them.
Stats serve as a tool for the GM. It appears, alas, the stats have turned Brian into the tool.
“unless the manager is doing something unusually stupid”
like the time torree batted ARod at the bottom of the lineup???????
What exactly Torre is thinking? Does he really need money badly that he can’t wait until his retirement?
Now let’s see how Dodgers’ players will perform under his management.
Stupid is the only word I can said of him.
One reason the Red Sox have become so formidable in recent years is that they have embraced statistical analysis. Bill James is on their staff and they use statistical analysis in all of their organization from scouting on up.
Bottom line, Joe Torre’s boss was Brian Cashman. Not the other way around.