Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 27, 2009 
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After negotiations that rivaled the Paris Peace Talks, Andy Pettitte signed with the Yankees.
Brian Cashman again talked about a book he hasn’t read. This notebook also has info on how Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera are doing with their rehabs.
————
Yesterdays conference call was interesting. Cashman set the indoor world record for most words said without a pause. Meanwhile assorted TV types jumped on the call (which they almost never do) to ask Cashman grave questions about The Yankee Years.
By the time the final inquisitor had asked the same question the others had, media relations director Jason Zillo cut him off and the call mercifully ended.
We also had the requisite question about whether Joba should pitch in the bullpen. I’m fairly sure if Joba went 22-2 and won the Cy Young Award, the first question he would get is whether he should pitch in the bullpen.
“You know, Claude Monet, that’s a nice painting. But think about how well you’d paint a house. Go slap some primer on the Arc de Triomphe, see how you do.”
I just don’t get it. I never will.
When people run out of things to ask, they default to Joba (pen or rotation). I wonder if they begin to bore themselves.
You Know Mr Woods
That was a great “Hole in One” but you should have used a three iron.
“You know, Claude Monet, that’s a nice painting. But think about how well you’d paint a house. Go slap some primer on the Arc de Triomphe, see how you do.”
I just don’t get it. I never will.”
C’mon, Peter, it sells. How many blogs get multiple hits/comments because somebody writes a Joba to the pen post? How many people call up WFAN to yell about Joba to the pen?
It’s the only “wedge issue” people have now that Andy is signed. Well, that and Manny…
Bowa confirms that one guy called Alex A-Fraud. The excepts from the book make you think that everyone was doing it.
I did groan a little bit when the first question was about that dumb book.
How do you sell books? You create a little controversy even if it’s old news. Hey, we’re talking about the book now! Mission accomplished.
How do you sell books? You create a little controversy even if it’s old news. Hey, we’re talking about the book now! Mission accomplished.
Talking about it…. not buying it.
as one of the old timers-here (i think anyone over the age of 26 qualifies) i cant believe people are upset about different colored yankees hats. for one thing, the yankees have given out pink yankees hats (my ex gf still has hers, and white ones at the stadium over the years. i can tell you that when i was a kid television was black and white and when i saw a color tv for the first time, i wasnt thinking about how much i loved the shades of grey on my old set.
the world moves on, move with it or be left in the dust.
o and i occasionally like to wear my green yankees hat. deal with it.
Peter, your continual reference to people commenting on a book they have not read is a fatuous statement.
The fact that excerpts have been widely published is sufficient information. People are not judging the books, just those quoted sections. It is entirely correct to react to those publicized sections.Especially as only a tiny fraction of the interested public will ever read the book and the statements were only released in order to promote the book.
Therefore Joe Torre is tied to the publicized sections to a far greater degree than to the actual book and if he did not know this would happen he is very naive.
Pete, sure you understand the Joba To The Pen “controversy.”
When Joba pitches in relief, he is more likely to pump his fist.
When Joba pumps his fist, sportswriters and radio hosts can devote a day’s attention to debating whether Joba shows too much, too little, or just the right amount of emotion on the mound.
Plus, with K-Rod now in Flushing, the fist pumping debate could reach a whole new level. It could be a Yankees v. Mets thing – which team has the more excitable reliever?
The possibilities are nearly endless!
im expecting a new dance from Krod where he swivels his hips like water doing down a drain.
we’ll call it ‘the flushing.’
The only way I would want to see Joba in the pen is if Mariano has trouble rehabbing and will miss an extended amount of time. Then I would want to see Joba as the closer until Mo returns.
I too, wear my green Yankee Hat with pride, Ham Fighters. I even wear it backwards so the shamrock emblem can be seen.
Anyone an ESPN insider? I want to know the ending of Buster’s blog today and I’m not.
Greatest line Peter has ever written
“You know, Claude Monet, that’s a nice painting. But think about how well you’d paint a house. Go slap some primer on the Arc de Triomphe, see how you do.”
Pete -
In fairness, Cashman has said he hasn’t read the book, and has limited his comments, hasn’t he? (Unlike most of us here –
)
this is just disgusting:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
I can post Buster’s blog too…he is not too happy with Torre
“The only way I would want to see Joba in the pen is if Mariano has trouble rehabbing and will miss an extended amount of time.”
Mark Melancon is waiting. I wonder if the Joba-to-the-bullpen will continue if Brackman debuts? hmm…
FROM BUSTER OLNEY’S BLOG:
Torre cannot hide behind author
——————————————————————————–
Some of the Yankees who found themselves on the receiving end of Joe Torre’s seething scowl called it The Stare — his face tight, his mouth frozen into a horizontal line, his dark eyes seemingly blackened by a slight inward tilt of his eyebrows. The Stare was reserved for only capital offenses, for missing signs, for awful decisions.
Reporters sometimes got The Stare as well, most often when they asked a question that Torre deemed to be driven by a quest for sensationalism, and the manager would chastise them bluntly, the way a fourth-grade teacher speaks to a wayward pupil. When I covered the team for The New York Times, he expressed particular distaste for ESPN, especially after Roger Clemens’ beaning of Mike Piazza and the subsequent bat-throwing incident, because he felt that the network replayed the ugliness over and over only to sell its programming.
In an honest moment today, Torre would aim The Scowl again — into a mirror. Because this time, Torre is guilty of fostering and feeding on sensationalism, at the expense of former colleagues.
It is Tom Verducci who wrote the actual words of the book, and over the past two days, Verducci has worked to underscore this point, and to note that the small fragments about Alex Rodriguez, Brian Cashman and the Steinbrenners are just tiny pieces of a book of almost 500 pages. The voice is in the third person, and not in Torre’s voice, as it was the first time that Torre and Verducci collaborated. A lot of the words are based on Verducci’s reporting.
But here’s the problem with that: It’s Joe Torre’s book. His name is on it. He got paid for it. He had a chance to read every word, every sentence, every paragraph. He had to approve every passage.
We talked to him about a lot of things today. I just sensed he was bothered by it. Not by what we said, but by how it came out. How much of it is actually what he said and how much isn’t exactly what he said, I don’t know. … But there’s no question: it has his name on it, and he has to be accountable for it.
–Joe Torre, in 2003 about a book ghostwritten by David Wells
He had the choice, for example, whether to include this, from page 245:
Back in 2004, at first [Alex] Rodriguez did his best to try and fit into the Yankee culture — his cloying, B Grade actor best. He slathered on the polish. People in the clubhouse, including teammates and support personnel were calling him ‘A-Fraud’ behind his back.
And it was Torre’s choice, ultimately, to include this, from page 252:
In his own way, Rodriguez was fascinated with [Derek] Jeter, as if trying to figure out what it was about Jeter that could have bought him so much goodwill. The inside joke in the clubhouse was that Rodriguez’ pre-occupation with Jeter recalled the 1992 film, ‘Single White Female,’ in which a woman becomes obsessed with her roommate to the point of dressing like her.
And it was Torre who approved the words in the excerpt released Monday — after Torre had assured Cashman on the phone Sunday that they were friends and always would be friends.
Only much later did Torre start to put the picture together of what had happened to his working relationship with Cashman. The personal falling-out they had in 2006 spring training over philosophical issues, Cashman’s decision not to bring back longtime center fielder Bernie Williams when his contract expired in 2006, his submission of odd lineup suggestions based on stats, his lack of regard for Ron Guidry as a pitching coach, his detachment from the “they” who were making an offer to Torre, his failure to offer any comment or support in the meeting that decided Torre’s future, his failure to personally relay Torre’s proposal to find a way to reach an agreement to the Steinbrenners … “I thought Cash was an ally, I really did,” Torre says.
Those passages are based on Verducci’s reporting. They are written by Verducci.
But it’s Torre’s book. And within the pages of a book with Torre’s name on it, some former colleagues are demeaned, and that was his choice.
Verducci said in a radio interview on WFAN Monday that all of this is not really new, that everybody has known for years that Rodriguez has had difficulty assimilating with the Yankees’ veterans.
Here’s what’s new about it: the stories are in a book authored by Joe Torre.
This is hardly a new concept. The fact that former First Lady Nancy Reagan could be difficult was hardly a new concept, but when Ronald Reagan’s former Chief of Staff, Don Regan, published a book detailing that, well, it became a very big deal. The suggestion that the run-up to the Iraq War included misinformation was something posed by many reporters — but it became something very different when posited in a book by former White House spokesman Scott McClellan.
The book is in Torre’s name. Says right there on the cover. By Joe Torre and Tom Verducci.
In the four seasons that Torre managed Rodriguez, he would never have come out in the dugout for his daily session with reporters and revealed to reporters that teammates called Rodriguez “A-Fraud,” and if any reporter had asked him if it was true that teammates compared A-Rod to the protagonist in the movie Single White Female, they would have gotten The Stare.
But he has gone beyond his own code of conduct in his book. In the spring of 2003, David Wells and a ghostwriter published a book called, Perfect I’m Not: Boomer on Beer, Brawls, Backaches and Baseball, and Torre was furious, angry that Wells had aired some of the Yankees’ dirty laundry in the pages. Wells tried to distance himself from some of the words within the book, saying that they belonged to the writer, but the Yankees’ manager would not accept that. After a meeting with the pitcher, Torre said this to reporters:
”We talked to him about a lot of things today. I just sensed he was bothered by it. Not by what we said, but by how it came out. How much of it is actually what he said and how much isn’t exactly what he said, I don’t know.
“But there’s no question: it has his name on it, and he has to be accountable for it.”
Torre and Cashman and George Steinbrenner held him accountable: Wells, in the end, was fined $100,000 by the organization.
Now it is Torre’s responsibility to be fully accountable for the words in the book that has his name on it, and he must stand behind those words.
If he hides behind Verducci and the suggestion that the ugly anecdotes aren’t his, that explanation will have echoes of “I didn’t knowingly take steroids.” If he embraces the words as his own, he should also acknowledge he has been, at the very least, extraordinarily hypocritical.
A-Rod tells others he’s not bothered by Torre’s words, writes John Harper. Torre’s revenge hit the wrong targets, writes Wallace Matthews.
Let’s forget for a moment Joba in the pen, the real question should be, how are Posada and Matsui recovering from surgery? If they are both healthy, the lineup is filthy, if both can’t play up to their career norms, we will have a so-so offense again.
I love the contract signed by Andy Pettitte. I wish more contracts were structured like this, where both parties
share in the “risk” and clubs are somewhat protected from player non-performance.
Long term contracts at huge $ have become way too one-sided, risk-wise, especially with pitchers, in the player’s favor.
Okay, I’m old & remember when players were not much more than indentured servants & the owners held ALL the cards.
I also understand the laws of supply & demand & free markets, but the Pendulum has swung far too far in the player’s favor, & I would like to see some sort of protection built in to guarantee at least some minimal
level of durability/performance, below which compensation would be decreased, & thereby not cripple teams for years to come, as is the case now for many teams, who, unlike the Yankees, can not keep pouring $ down the drain for all our Pavano-like mistakes.
Surely, smart folk can come up with a less one-sided way of doing business.
I for one, am happy to see so many current free-agents having a hard time getting $, at long last.
Now if we can just bring some sanity back into pitcher’s contracts, which are by far the riskiest.
From Mike Ashmore’s Thunder Thoughts blog:
If the consensus is that Pettitte is little more than a placeholder, why not use one of your numerous starting pitching prospects in a meaningful role at the big league level instead of picking up garbage innings as a long man in the Bronx or spending another year in Trenton or Scranton?
And how long before some of these players start getting frustrated with having to repeat levels of the minors?
Things are looking great at the big league level, and the minor leagues certainly look stacked as well. But at what cost?
http://thunderbaseball.wordpre.....te-really/
“Things are looking great at the big league level, and the minor leagues certainly look stacked as well. But at what cost?”
being careful with and not rushing them?
Rishi
LOL. That part I could read, it’s what comes after that you need to have insider access to read. But thanks anyway.
I can get that too – i never know how much is free or not since I get it all on one screen…
Torre cannot hide behind author
Tuesday, January 27, 2009 | Feedback | Print Entry
Some of the Yankees who found themselves on the receiving end of Joe Torre’s seething scowl called it The Stare — his face tight, his mouth frozen into a horizontal line, his dark eyes seemingly blackened by a slight inward tilt of his eyebrows. The Stare was reserved for only capital offenses, for missing signs, for awful decisions.
Olney’s news and notes
• Greinke extension important for KC
• Red Sox give Varitek a deadline
• Yanks concerned about Rivera, Posada
• Players OK with Twins’ inactivity
• Casey to officially retire
To go around the majors with Buster Olney, become an ESPN Insider
Reporters sometimes got The Stare as well, most often when they asked a question that Torre deemed to be driven by a quest for sensationalism, and the manager would chastise them bluntly, the way a fourth-grade teacher speaks to a wayward pupil. When I covered the team for The New York Times, he expressed particular distaste for ESPN, especially after Roger Clemens’ beaning of Mike Piazza and the subsequent bat-throwing incident, because he felt that the network replayed the ugliness over and over only to sell its programming.
In an honest moment today, Torre would aim The Scowl again — into a mirror. Because this time, Torre is guilty of fostering and feeding on sensationalism, at the expense of former colleagues.
It is Tom Verducci who wrote the actual words of the book, and over the past two days, Verducci has worked to underscore this point, and to note that the small fragments about Alex Rodriguez, Brian Cashman and the Steinbrenners are just tiny pieces of a book of almost 500 pages. The voice is in the third person, and not in Torre’s voice, as it was the first time that Torre and Verducci collaborated. A lot of the words are based on Verducci’s reporting.
But here’s the problem with that: It’s Joe Torre’s book. His name is on it. He got paid for it. He had a chance to read every word, every sentence, every paragraph. He had to approve every passage.
We talked to him about a lot of things today. I just sensed he was bothered by it. Not by what we said, but by how it came out. How much of it is actually what he said and how much isn’t exactly what he said, I don’t know. … But there’s no question: it has his name on it, and he has to be accountable for it.
–Joe Torre, in 2003 about a book ghostwritten by David Wells
He had the choice, for example, whether to include this, from page 245:
Back in 2004, at first [Alex] Rodriguez did his best to try and fit into the Yankee culture — his cloying, B Grade actor best. He slathered on the polish. People in the clubhouse, including teammates and support personnel were calling him ‘A-Fraud’ behind his back.
And it was Torre’s choice, ultimately, to include this, from page 252:
In his own way, Rodriguez was fascinated with [Derek] Jeter, as if trying to figure out what it was about Jeter that could have bought him so much goodwill. The inside joke in the clubhouse was that Rodriguez’ pre-occupation with Jeter recalled the 1992 film, ‘Single White Female,’ in which a woman becomes obsessed with her roommate to the point of dressing like her.
And it was Torre who approved the words in the excerpt released Monday — after Torre had assured Cashman on the phone Sunday that they were friends and always would be friends.
Only much later did Torre start to put the picture together of what had happened to his working relationship with Cashman. The personal falling-out they had in 2006 spring training over philosophical issues, Cashman’s decision not to bring back longtime center fielder Bernie Williams when his contract expired in 2006, his submission of odd lineup suggestions based on stats, his lack of regard for Ron Guidry as a pitching coach, his detachment from the “they” who were making an offer to Torre, his failure to offer any comment or support in the meeting that decided Torre’s future, his failure to personally relay Torre’s proposal to find a way to reach an agreement to the Steinbrenners … “I thought Cash was an ally, I really did,” Torre says.
Those passages are based on Verducci’s reporting. They are written by Verducci.
But it’s Torre’s book. And within the pages of a book with Torre’s name on it, some former colleagues are demeaned, and that was his choice.
Verducci said in a radio interview on WFAN Monday that all of this is not really new, that everybody has known for years that Rodriguez has had difficulty assimilating with the Yankees’ veterans.
Here’s what’s new about it: the stories are in a book authored by Joe Torre.
This is hardly a new concept. The fact that former First Lady Nancy Reagan could be difficult was hardly a new concept, but when Ronald Reagan’s former Chief of Staff, Don Regan, published a book detailing that, well, it became a very big deal. The suggestion that the run-up to the Iraq War included misinformation was something posed by many reporters — but it became something very different when posited in a book by former White House spokesman Scott McClellan.
The book is in Torre’s name. Says right there on the cover. By Joe Torre and Tom Verducci.
In the four seasons that Torre managed Rodriguez, he would never have come out in the dugout for his daily session with reporters and revealed to reporters that teammates called Rodriguez “A-Fraud,” and if any reporter had asked him if it was true that teammates compared A-Rod to the protagonist in the movie Single White Female, they would have gotten The Stare.
But he has gone beyond his own code of conduct in his book. In the spring of 2003, David Wells and a ghostwriter published a book called, Perfect I’m Not: Boomer on Beer, Brawls, Backaches and Baseball, and Torre was furious, angry that Wells had aired some of the Yankees’ dirty laundry in the pages. Wells tried to distance himself from some of the words within the book, saying that they belonged to the writer, but the Yankees’ manager would not accept that. After a meeting with the pitcher, Torre said this to reporters:
”We talked to him about a lot of things today. I just sensed he was bothered by it. Not by what we said, but by how it came out. How much of it is actually what he said and how much isn’t exactly what he said, I don’t know.
“But there’s no question: it has his name on it, and he has to be accountable for it.”
Torre and Cashman and George Steinbrenner held him accountable: Wells, in the end, was fined $100,000 by the organization.
Now it is Torre’s responsibility to be fully accountable for the words in the book that has his name on it, and he must stand behind those words.
If he hides behind Verducci and the suggestion that the ugly anecdotes aren’t his, that explanation will have echoes of “I didn’t knowingly take steroids.” If he embraces the words as his own, he should also acknowledge he has been, at the very least, extraordinarily hypocritical.
A-Rod tells others he’s not bothered by Torre’s words, writes John Harper. Torre’s revenge hit the wrong targets, writes Wallace Matthews.
The reaction to Torre’s book is torrid, writes Bruce Jenkins.
• The Royals signed Zack Greinke to a multi-year deal, as Sam Mellinger writes, and this is one of the best developments for this franchise in years. I remember talking with general manager Dayton Moore last summer about the need for stability, about how important it was to get the young players on the team believing that they were part of something that was being built, rather than part of something temporary. And in signing Greinke, one of the game’s best young players, the Royals have taken a big step in that direction.
It’s a huge deal for the Royals, writes Joe Posnanski.
• The Red Sox have given Jason Varitek until Saturday to accept or reject their offer, writes Michael Silverman. He might prefer a one-year offer from the Red Sox, writes Tony Massarotti.
• Andy Pettitte took a pay cut to return to the Yankees. Now the Yankees should put Joba Chamberlain in the bullpen, writes Kevin Kernan.
The Yankees have concerns about Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera.
• Team Canada will have some starting pitching woes in the WBC, writes James Madge and James Lott.
• The Jays signed a couple of minor leaguers.
• Clayton Kershaw is settling in.
• Pain continues to be a problem for Jeff Francis, as Patrick Saunders writes.
• The Yankees’ signing of Andy Pettitte helps the Rangers.
• Will Ohman is waiting to sign, writes David O’Brien.
• Don’t blame Drayton McLane for letting Andy Pettitte get away, writes Richard Justice.
• Nationals executives are preaching patience. Washington fans would love for the team to sign Adam Dunn, writes Thom Loverro.
• Twins players don’t seem upset by the club’s inactivity, writes Joe Christensen. Joe Nathan is glad he signed his contract when he did, writes Phil Miller.
• White Sox hitting coach Greg Walker is energized for the upcoming season.
• The guy who might buy the Cubs is a little bit like Bill Veeck, writes Paul Sullivan.
• Timing was everything in the Craig Counsell deal, writes Tom Haudricourt.
• Sean Casey will make his retirement official today.
• Brandon Lyon is a strike-thrower, writes Tom Gage.
• We did an RBI fund-raiser in Nashville on Monday night, with the likes of pitchers David Price and Jensen Lewis and Vanderbilt baseball coach Tim Corbin — and Nashville native umpire Chuck Meriwether. After spending some time chatting with Meriwether, you understand why the players and managers like him so much.
• Kirk Radomski says Sen. George Mitchell asked him about big-name players.
Pete,
You just must loved Kevin Kernan’s question to Cash about Joba and the Pen…..Did you love the article too?
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01.....152178.htm
You know, before long, none of us will have to buy the book, nor will we have to borrow it from the library, nor sit in B&N over a Starbucks. By the time the book is released, all the “best” parts will have been posted in one blog or newspaper or magazine or another, and, really, who cares about the boring parts?
That’s what you need an “Insider” account for? A bunch of assorted links?
Thanks Rishi.
Interesting piece by Olney.
To move on to baseball matters – Mike Ashmore brings up a good point about the Yankees’ stock of minor league pitching. I think this helps some of the minor leaguers’ development, as there is much less need to hurry them along, and they can more carefully develop their skills. However, Mike is right in that the Yankees need to start making some decisions on some of these guys. All of them are not going to make the team in NY. Some deals could be in the works, either to land a CF for the big club, or to stock the minors with position players.
I’m waiting for there to be an Itunes for books. So, instead of buying the whole book, you can buy just the good parts for .99 cents.
Tom – the whole thing used to be insider access, now it’s the links…the other blog posts are good too…
And thanks, Rishi, for posting the Olney article.
Sad that all the stuff that won’t be excerpted is probably the least salacious but most informative stuff in the book.
Pete
The issue keeps coming up because there is no one on this team that has proven himself as an A-list set up man other than Joba. It keeps coming up because even the staunchest “Joba is a starter” advocates would acknoweldge that the 2009 Yankees might be better with him in the pen.
It keeps coming up because there are legit concerns about his long term fitness as a starter. I live in Florida and I’ve spoken to a Yankees scout who admits there’s a difference of opinion within the organization. Scouts and G.M.s of other teams come down on opposite sides of the debate. Hell his teammates are divided on the issue.
I don’t think there’s a difference of opinion as to whether a starter is more valuable than a set up reliever. Nor is there a difference of opinion as to whether Joba has the “stuff” of a starter. But there is legitimate debate about whether or his shoulder issues are a red flag regarding the asdvisability of him being starter or if he can make his delivery less violent which would help his long term prospects.
Lol…Holy Claude Money reference, Batman!
You know, Peter, I spoke with my boss yesterday and we decided that I am just too valuable at my office to work from 8 to 5. We figured out that we could increase my hourly production if I only worked one hour per day. It will be a great hour and, thankfully, I will be paid the same. Sure, my boss will have to hire someone else to work from 8 to 3 and then from 4 to 5. But that hour of work I put in from 3 PM to 4 PM is going to be REALLY good.
Maybe now you understand why Joba should be in the pen.
“There was Torre, of course; and Steinbrenner’s two sons, Hank and Hal; George’s son-in-law, Felix Lopez; team president Randy Levine; chief operating officer Lonn Trost; and general manager Brian Cashman, who sat behind Torre’s right shoulder.” excerpt from the book
sj44-
you said earlier today that some people’s baseball knowledge could be fit in a thimble.
i would break baseball knowledge into two parts, business of baseball knowledge and playing the game baseball knowledge.
counting george, who was also there, there were seven people deciding torre’s fate.
on a scale of 10 rating for the two kinds of baseball knowledge i ‘d rate torre a 10 on playing the game( PTG) baseball knowledge.
george- 2 ( because he’s unfortunately out to lunch at this point in his life)
felix lopez-0
lonn trost-1
randy levine-1
hank steinbrenner-2
hal steinbrenner-2
brian cashman-5
business of baseball knowledge(BOB)
torre-5
george- 2 ( because he’s unfortunately out to lunch at this point in his life)
felix lopez-1
lonn trost-7
randy levine-7
hank steinbrenner- 3
hal steinbrenner-4
brian cashman-9
hiring a manager is about hiring someone who can win games on the field.
a manager needs to be a 10 on PTG knowledge.
so the yankees decided the fate of their manager( torre) who had a 10PTG rating with a gang of seven group who had an average of less than a 2PTG knowledge.
that is the amount of baseball knowledge that could be put in that “thimble”.
if this group were hiring a gm, it wouldn’t have been so bad. if this group would have had a gene michaels( a 10PTG), a mark newman(8PTG),or other strong PTG yankee staff, it wouldn’t have been so bad and would have been acceptable.
torre’s mistake was walking into a meeting where the PTG knowledge was below the level of the average fan(2PTG).
with this gang of seven making decisions that affect playing the game(PTG), the yankees will continue to have problems. this kind of meeting goes against all the theories that cashman is steering this team in the right direction when the reality is he disappeared into the “thimble”.
thank god for the yankees being cash rich because that’s the only way this team will win with this thimble-like group guiding it.
Joe and Evan on WFAN are a pip. They are defending Torre (and trying to speak for Yankee fans) by saying Torre didn’t rip “his guys” (Jeter, Mo, Po, Andy) so in essence it’s all ok.
I would love to call them and tell them that they should not be speaking for me. IMO, this makes it worse…..that Joe is going out of his way to target those who didn’t contribute to WS or just didn’t contribute to winning seasons period. I don’t care that Randy Johnson is a sourpuss – if he’s fragile mentally (which I doubt), that stuff doesn’t belong in any book (and it’s beyond stupid to be saying anything as long as the man is still actively pitching. The fact that Johnson is now on the Giants will make it that much sweeter. I would love to see him “accidentally” miss the plate and buzz one by Joe, lol).
Chuck Knoblauch was a key contributor to WS teams. Joe has no business airing his problems (not that Joe would know – last I heard, he doesn’t have a license to practice psychiatry) for all the world to read about.
His guys? I love the dynasty guys – they are good men in addition to being great players – but wow – this book tells me more about Joe Torre the man than it reveals about all the other players combined. This is an ugly episode and no amount of spin can hide it.
That is a scathing post from Olney.
It’s like they say in the movie _Stardust_ :
Reputations-a lifetime to build up, seconds to destroy.
Good piece by Olney…Joe is a hypocrite for blasting Wells for his book. Unfortunately, he is also much worse for his snipes at former players. The writing isn’t that good, either. A-Rod at his B-movie best? It’s wrong for wanting to fit in? It just gets worse
As for his comment about Mo and Po – are the Yankees actually “concerned” because things aren’t going well in their rehabs or just because it is normal to have concerns after any surgery? We never talk about Mo, but maybe he won’t be the same, either. He went under the knife as well as Posada and yet we are assuming he will be fine. Should we be assuming that?
Pete, I’m wondering if you can address the following:
With an incentive laden contract such as Andy’s (particularly as the incentives are tied to innings), doesn’t this lend itself to the potential of real conflicts in what’s best for the player vs. what’s best for the Team, as well as potential for serious drama between player and manager?
A couple very realistic example:
- Andy is pitching poorly in a September game, but is right at the point of vesting another innings incentive. Does Girardi have to worry about angering his pitcher by taking him out while the Yanks still have a chance to come back?
- Same scenario with andy pitching well in a blowout. Obviously you want to pull Andy and keep him fresh for next start, or even October. Does Joe now have to factor in how his decision will affect Andy’s finances, and/or attitude?
I’m very curious about this angle, and wonder if it’s been brought up?
Thanks; love the blog.
Cashman is not finished dealing just yet.
Joba = Joba starts
Mananger = Joba starts
GM = Joba starts
Baseball operations = Joba starts
Ownership = Joba starts
Idiots in Media = Joba in Bullpen!
Pete, when Joba has his first Cy Young caliber year (whether he ultimately wins the award or not) I’ll try to remember to post a question on your blog, asking your thoughts on moving him back to the bullpen.
For the record, I’m all for him being a starter instead of a reliever and I know you are too. I’d just be asking for the reaction. Not necessarily for your reaction, but I suspect that’ll be worth reading too.
A-Jax, you forgot a couple there …
Joba = Joba starts
Occasional sub-intelligent blogger = Joba in the bullpen
randy,
I would disagree with your assessment.
Torre’s fate was decided before that meeting took place.
The meeting was just a show.
Felix Lopez has no say. He’s window dressing for family reasons.
Cash was silent because he couldn’t save Torre this time.
For reasons well beyond the playoff losses, enough was enough and Torre lost his remaining allies.
That’s the way of goes.
Make no mistake though. Four people decided his fate: Hal, Hank, Levine and Cash.
Everybody else were just present for the show.
“But there is legitimate debate about whether or his shoulder issues are a red flag regarding the asdvisability of him being starter”
i agree there’s alegitimate debate about joba, but the yankee management approach will be to start him until something breaks. if nothing breaks great. if something breaks, they’ll fix it and worry how to proceed then.
he won’t see the bullpen unless he gets injured starting.
Who did Andy replace on the 40-man roster ? ?
Has it occurred to anyone that moving Joba back & forth between the rotation (consistent rest) and the bullpen (variable rest) could be an injury risk in spite of it reducing his overall innings totals?
Between Joba, Torre, and Pettite, I’d say there are enough dead horses here being whipped. I can’t wait until ST for some real news.
http://blogs.nypost.com/sports.....n_the.html
“he won’t see the bullpen unless he gets injured starting.”
Dat’s a fact, Jack!
“there are enough dead horses here being whipped”
… and there are enough horse’s arses doing the whipping!
“Make no mistake though. Four people decided his fate: Hal, Hank, Levine and Cash.”
sj-
isn’t it a problem that of those four you mention that only cashman has any significant on the field baseball IQ ?
shouldn’t cashman pretty much make the decision and then have it rubber stamped by ownership ?
even though i bash cashman most of the time. i’d be much more comfortable with him making the decision alone.
i would say whenever this group of seven gets together watch out. nothing good can come from it unless they are trying to decide hot dogs or hamburgs for the main course at the steinbrenner family bbq.
THanks for the link, Gayle – intersting insight…
“he won’t see the bullpen unless he gets injured starting”
I agree. Joba should be a starter until or unless he can’t anymore. If he goes down with another shoulder problem again, then it’s time to re-evaluate. Even then I see them giving him 2010 to try again. His upside is just too good.
worse case scenario – he’s our papelbon. It’s a matter of health. he’s got the ability in both roles.
The media will ask Torre more questions about the content of his book than they will about his 2009 Dodger team, with or without Manny.
He won’t be comfortable coming to New York to face the Mets with a swarm of media all over him. That’s when the regrets about the book will set in.
Now that Pettitte is back aboard we’re beginning to see the old stirrings of Joba to the pen. Kernan mentioned it again in the News today. My personal opinion is that that is just crazy. I’m glad to see that Pete has not changed his mind one iota!
1)Because Joba is a starting pitcher until proven otherwise – full stop. A pitcher with three terrific pitches, a pitcher who can dominate as a starter is simply wasted in the pen. Only two things should put him back there, an emergency or an unexpected inability to be an effective starter.
2)Hughes needs to be in Scranton all or most of this year to work on his own third effective pitch and prove that he can stay healthy all year. Ditto IPK. Aceves and/or Coke, depending on their ST performance, could be long men in the pen capable of spot starting from time to time when necessary. Hughes, IPK or someone else could be brought up only if the circumstances dictate it.
The Yankees have been blessed over the years with outstanding closers from Joe Page, to Johnny Sain, Ryne Duren and Luis Arroyo (when closers were just relievers, rather than one inning specialists as they generally are today) to guys like Steve Hamilton and Lindy McDaniel during the years of the Empire’s Retreat. When George put the Evil back in the Empire and the Yanks struck back, they had other outstanding closers in Sparky Lyle, Goose Gossage, Jim Righetti and John Wettland before they brought in the incomparable Mo.
Great closers, including Mo, like Eckersly, Gossage, Smoltz and Righetti all began as starters. It’s a much easier transition than to go from closer to starter, if that should prove necessary with Joba.
The Yanks have a wealth of power arms in the minors; Melachon (Sp?), Sanchez, Whelan and a number of others. One would have to think that at least one of them will be better suited to closing because they have the temperament and great two pitch stiff but lack the ability to start. I really feel it would not only be a detriment to his career, but a mistake for the Yankees to lose the potential of a young (steroid free) Clemens.
I don’t see how the Yankees are abusing Joba.
He is slated to be the 5th starter. The 4 guys ahead of him have all thrown 200 innings in a season in their careers.
It seems to be he’s getting the perfect situation to develop and not be overused.
They will be able to skip him on occasion and not have to overuse him.
Its the perfect way to develop a young pitcher.
He can throw 140-150 innings this year and doesn’t have to be in a position to carry the staff.
Isn’t that what you are supposed to do with young arms?
Chris from NJ
January 27th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Let’s forget for a moment Joba in the pen, the real question should be, how are Posada and Matsui recovering from surgery? If they are both healthy, the lineup is filthy, if both can’t play up to their career norms, we will have a so-so offense again.
—–
This is why you sign Manny.
For the record, I believe that Joba is better suited for the Pen. If Mo is not healthy then thats where he ends up. If Mo is healthy and Melancon is ready for the 8th inning then I have no problem starting Joba.
My gut feeling is that his style of pitching will keep him healthier in the pen. JMO
*WARNING: more about Torre. Skip it if you’re not interested.*
“In the first year with the up and coming Joe, one of the best bullpens we have seen as Yankees fans…”
And back to something I have contended for the past 8 years!!!!!
Joe Torre’s vendetta against Jeff Nelson started the demise of the current great Yankee era. Let’s look at the facts. Nelson complained to the press about Torre leaving him off the All Star Team. That was in 2000, the last year the Yankees won the World Series. Nellie had a 2.45 ERA that year. Cashman ended up offering him an embarassment of a contract (I believe it was 3 mil) and Nelson left and went to Seattle. Joe’s well known grudge against players who talked to the press and tarnished the Saint Joe image in the process was played out against one of the Yankees greatest relief pitchers. It made me sick to my stomach at the time because the key to the Yankees’success had been its rotation and its OUTSTANDING bullpen. That was when we had the Nellie/Stanton tandem.
The bullpen was never the same, and the Yankees never won again.
‘’That’s your main objective—you have to win,’’ said Jeff Nelson, the reliever who has complained mildly about Torre’s decision to leave him off the All-Star team. ‘’No matter how you go about doing it, no matter if you step on feelings or step on guys, you’re the manager in a very tough market and for a team that has a reputation for winning, and you’ve got to do what it takes to win.”
Unless you cross the manager. Then winning becomes entirely secondary to him finding a way to get rid of you.
“Last year, Yankees middle reliever Jeff Nelson thought he deserved to be selected, and when Torre did not pick him, Nelson criticized Torre. Now Nelson is with the Mariners, in Seattle, where the All-Star Game will be played. How would Nelson feel if Stanton was picked to pitch in Seattle? ‘’I imagine he wouldn’t be real happy,’’ Stanton said, chuckling.”
Torre singlehandedly insured that the Yankees wouldn’t win any further World Series by making sure Nellie got canned. This is the guy whose number should be retired.
Yeh.
Rishi-Thanks for posting that stuff from Olney.
Betsy-yeah I was listening to Joe and Evan too. They were annoying me. It’s all no big deal to them.
Randy,
Torre should have been fired after the 2006 season. What he did to Arod, which hurt the team, as well as benching Melky (who was a key component to them surviving the injuries to Matsui and Sheffield) contributed more to that loss than anything.
You embarrass the best player in the game, to take the heat off your own bungled moves, that’s a fireable offense, IMO.
Yet, the Family gave him another year.
After 2007, NOBODY was saving Joe Torre unless he was coming back on the Yankees terms. That wasn’t going to happen so, the inevitable parting took place.
I also believe Cashman was ready for a change in managers.
Torre wasn’t as good a manager the last 3-4 years on the job that he was earlier. He blew out bullpens. He was consistently overmatched in strategic situations. If the team wasn’t bashing, Torre didn’t try anything different.
In other words, he mailed it in. Of course, its all Arod’s fault (sarcasm added).
After awhile, the bloom fell off the rose and it was time to part ways.
For all the Yankees problems last year, they still had a better record than the Dodgers. That’s despite having Carl Pavano, Sidney Ponson and Darrell Rasner represent 3/5th of the starting rotation for the stretch drive.
Put the Dodgers the AL East and they don’t win 80 games. Put the Yankees in the NL West and they make the playoffs last year, flawed and all.
As far as Yankee decisionmaking, what have they done wrong this off-season? They got younger and more athletic with the additions of Swisher and Teixeira.
They have upgraded their starting pitching immensely, while being able to shelter Joba from piling on the innings to cover weaknesses.
They haven’t had to move a single top prospect to upgrade the team.
They have guys like Hughes, Kennedy, Melancon, Sanchez, Aceves and Austin Jackson in the pipeline, a year or two from the majors.
They have other guys such as Montero, DeLaRosa, McAllister, Betances, Brackman, Laird and Romine also on the rise.
It seems to me that finally, they are putting together a top flight organization from top to bottom.
Its easy to rail on Hank. He’s an easy target. However, Hank doesn’t run the team. Hal runs it and Cashman has complete autonomy re: baseball ops.
Its the most balanced team they have had going into spring training in years. That shouldn’t be lost because Joe Torre is unhappy he’s no longer Yankee manager and had to write a book to express his displeasure.
Gayle ;
I’m not always in full agreement with Joel Sherman but he makes valid points about Torre not defending the firings of Stottlemyre and Zimmer amoung others yet he wanted Cashman to back him 100%.
I also don’t believe that Torre was as easy to work with as he was sometimes portrayed to be.
As a manager, Torre regressed from 2002-2007. He thought he was immune from a firing and leveraged his salaries in the process.
Pete, Claude Monet, great stuff, btw he was an old man when he did his best stuff.
NOT A Joba question: Your post, Duncan Designated; Coke to Start on 6 Jan 09; does it still hold true? Does the addition of Pettitte change the roster?
Interesting views from Olney and Joel Sherman, to say the least.
Jeff Nelson’s number should be retired?
Joel Sherman wrote an excellent article.
Also, let us not forget, that Torre was the guy who – when it appeared Bernie Williams would leave following the 1998 season – famously went to play golf with Albert Belle and proclaimed afterward he could manage a player it turned out was just not manageable.
Interesting point he made.
new post
SJ, I agree 100% with you on Torre. He should have been gone a year earlier. For a guy who came from the NL, he didn’t play small ball too much and his decision making was questionable at best. I thought we had trouble bunting with him and thats the first thing I noticed with Girardi.
Now this is not a Torre bashing on my part, just agreeing that it was time to move on.
I am not saying that Girardi is a better manager but I like the way he handled the bull pen and the emphasis on small ball as well.
Guys like Cano need to be able to get a bunt down when asked. If they don’t then it is more of a by product of the farm system training which I believe is weak on many of the major league teams. Bunting has become a lost art and I guess thats because chicks did the long ball.
I stress bunting with my kids so that when they get to high school and beyond they will know how to do the little things that have gotten lost along the way. Try watching major leaguers run out of the box on a gapper. Too many doubles that should have been triples.
“the firings of Stottlemyre and Zimmer ”
i could be wrong, but i don’t think either were fired.
“he won’t see the bullpen unless he gets injured starting”
Isn’t that a little late.
I would love to see Joba dominate as a starter.
I will say I am intrigued on how much “better” out pen would be with him in it.
Our SP is great with or without Joba. Our pen is good without Joba, with Joba way above average.
I understand the innings (sp vs. pen) debate. It clearly favors him as a starter, but what about appearances?
As a starter Joba would appear in maybe 30 games, coming out of the pen maybe 70 or 80 games.
I have no idea if there is a stat to show the importance of appearing in more games vs. innings pitch. It seems as there would have to be some value in effecting the outcome of more games (late innings when importanat), vs. innings.
Before you go crazy remember, I would love to see Joba dominate as a starter!
randy, semi-serious question here: the way you laid things out suggests that someone like Joe Torre – high-caliber player and longtime manager with an enormous wealth of baseball knowledge – should never be fired. But that can’t be right. Should he have been named Manager-for-Life or something?
Just because you disrespect the ownership and management, isn’t it possible that Torre, despite all the great qualities he brought to the team, had just been there long enough and both sides needed a fresh start?
“isn’t it a problem that of those four you mention that only cashman has any significant on the field baseball IQ ?”
Isn’t this how the FO of every team works? An owner makes decisions with the advice of a GM who has a mixture of baseball and business experience.
Torre has been outmanaged in the playoffs since 2002 (including 2008). What would a FO with a higher PTG rating have seen in him that would have justified a two-year contract?
“isn’t it a problem that of those four you mention that only cashman has any significant on the field baseball IQ ?”
Isn’t this how the FO of every team works? An owner makes decisions with the advice of a GM who has a mixture of baseball and business experience.
Torre has been outmanaged in the playoffs since 2002 (including 2008). What would a FO with a higher PTG rating have seen in him that would have justified a two-year contract?
This is in response to my post about Arod in the previous thread.
I never said Alex hasn’t put up spectacular numbers while he’s been here, but if you live by the Yankees mantra of anything less than a championship is disappointing then yes his time here has been a failure.
If Alex doesn’t win a ring with the Yankees there’s no way I view his time as a success regardless of what individual accolades he receives.
Ted Williams I’m sure would have traded his career for Joe Dimaggio’s career.
In the end it’s the pennant flags that will fly forever.
Alex us a great player but if the team he was brought over to lead never winstead a championship he will never be looked upon like other immortal Yankees are looked upon.
Fair or not that’s the way it is.
By the way, as I pointed out to another poster regarding Torre and Nellie, there was no way that Torre could have known, of course, that the bullpen would go into a complete and total tailspin once he arabesqued Nellie. But that he was arrogant and ridiculous enough to do it tells me all I need to know about the man.
“Jeff Nelson’s number should be retired?”
Before Torre’s it should!
sj-
the scenario you describe from this point on sounds good and i cant argue with anything you said, but i wonder how things could be so good with the group of four you describe as being the major decision makers.
i agree on paper the present team is looking very good. signing pettitte was huge because it protects the other 4 starters from having to pick up the innings of a weak link in the rotation.
it is, however ,likely at least one of the five starters will miss half the season or more. risk management comes into play here. do the yankees want to plan on it happening or do they want to react to it at the time it happens?
hughes,aceves, and kennedy could be plugged in , but i’d take a different route which would be getting a veteran pitcher like paul byrd ahead of time who would be there from the beginning and who could be in the bullpen as a long reliever until needed.
the yankee sixth starter will likely start 15 games this year or more. i’d go with a veteran like byrd and continue to develop hughes and other young pitchers counting on them to be the seventh starters if needed.
that’s just me, i like veterans who have been there and who don’t have the highs and lows that young pitchers have. i especially like it that other starters don’t have to cover the veteran’s innings.
joba is already a very young pitcher in the rotation. that’s good and enough for me for one year. i’d rather see joba be a veteran next year and hughes be the new young guy in the rotation.
raymagnetic
So as I said before, you think Mattingly’s career as a Yankee was a failure?
“Just because you disrespect the ownership and management, isn’t it possible that Torre, despite all the great qualities he brought to the team, had just been there long enough and both sides needed a fresh start?”
nick in sf-
i would agree with that. i just would like a yankee ownership and management better if they kept key yankee people in the organization when it’s time for them to move on from a position that they have outlived.
in the best of worlds, torre would be a senior advisor for life with the team. cashman would be bumped up to an advisory role himself and a fresh new gm installed. players like guidry, stottlemyre, bernie williams and mattingly would remain with the team in some capacity.
the culture of the yankees would be stronger if more key people who were part of the success remained with the organization. the way it is now, key yankee people when they lose in a battle for a position are expelled from the organization.
i don’t think that’s how to build a world class organization.
“Before Torre’s it should!”
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appologies trisha.
i kind of figured that’s what you meant. after i made my post, however. i jumped the gun. (the gun being my brain working slowly today)
randy: I agree with a lot of what you just said. But in the case of Torre, after the acrimonious split, I don’t think he would turn around and accept being kicked upstairs even if the organization wanted to keep him around in an advisory capacity. And he would have been right to feel that way, given the reputation he had and the contract he was able to get from the Dodgers. Time will tell if the damage from the way he feels misteated and from the fallout over his book can be healed in any meaningful way.
boy pete, must be tough being the smartest guy in the room
saucY
January 27th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
“the firings of Stottlemyre and Zimmer ”
i could be wrong, but i don’t think either were fired.
————————————————————
They were forced out.
Joba thing is now easy in my mind. He becomes the fifth starter..and if things don’t go well he goes to the bullpen, bring up whomever after that.
well, if that’s the case, i doubt Torre could do much for either of their cases.
“Joba thing is now easy in my mind. He becomes the fifth starter..and if things don’t go well he goes to the bullpen, bring up whomever after that.”
Exactly, they are completely protected.
I think the only other way we need to go is the River Ave Blues route and get Javy for backup catcher.
We have plenty of OFers: Nady, Swisher, Damon, Gardner, Melky.
We have the infield covered with Cody and Berroa.
We have pitching covered with Aceves and Hughes.
We have relief covered with our farm.
We need to cover ourselves with catcher. Molina and Javy would make a formidable combination should Jorge need some time. If it were up to me I say get 100 games out of Jorge and have Molina play the rest. No pressure on Jorge.
“Alex us a great player but if the team he was brought over to lead never winstead a championship he will never be looked upon like other immortal Yankees are looked upon.”
This is probably true. Fans care much more about championships than individual achievements. David Eckstein was an ok shortstop for most of his career but he got lionized in the media for being on two championship teams. I’m sure plenty of Yankee fans would prefer having Brosius in his prime to ARod at third because Brosius was a “winner.”
Your reference to Williams trading his career for DiMaggio’s just shows how arbitrary all this is, though. Williams was an unbelievably great player who happened to play for a team that only made the playoffs once. In Williams’s sole playoff series (the 1946 World Series) he went .200/.333/.200.
If you look at Williams the same way so many fans look at ARod, he was a loser. That just can’t be right. At some point fans have to look at players other than the biggest star.
Something I asked before and am still curious about: is ARod a failure in most fans’ eyes if the Yankees win the World Series but he bats .000? Or is he a failure if the Yankees never win a World Series but he always bats .500 with lots of RBI in the playoffs?
It’s simple. Do you put your best arms in the pen or the rotation? The best starters make 50% more than the best relievers. That demonstrates what is more valuable to the teams.