Pinch hitting: Statistically Speaking
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- January
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January is traditionally a slow month for baseball news. So for the second year in a row, we will showcase other blogs with a series of pinch hitters.
Next up is Dan from Statistically Speaking.
Dan is a freshman business major at Cornell. He started blogging a few months ago and say his favorite player is Phil Hughes. Why? “Because he’s the man,” Dan said.
Here’s his post:
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Brian Cashman is an idiot. There, now that I got that out of the way, let’s see if we can figure out what it means to take an honest look at evaluating a general manager. This means trades, free agent signings, drafts, and roster management. I’m not going to go trade by trade, and signing by signing telling you what Cashman did well or what he could have done differently. I’m not even going to say if I think he’s done a good job as GM of the Yankees. Why does my opinion matter more than anyone else’s? What I’m going to do is outline how such a debate should take place.
For the sake of space I’m going to focus on trades specifically, mostly because people love debating them. First and foremost, the most important part of evaluating any trade is to do the evaluation using only information available at the time. For a trade that just happened, such as the Swisher deal, this isn’t a problem. But if we’re looking back in time at, say, the Weaver-for Lilly-deal, then this becomes incredibly important. At the time, this was hailed as a steal for New York. Since the deal, however, various fans and members of the media have bashed the deal as another one of Cashman’s blunders. To paraphrase from U.S.S. Mariner, if the Yankees traded Jeter tomorrow for a can of Sprite, and next week Jeter tore his hamstring while the can of Sprite turned out to be delicious, that wouldn’t make that trade any better. No GM has a crystal ball (besides Theo Epstein, according to Red Sox fans), and it’s simply unfair to evaluate a decision based on information that was unknown at the time it was made.
Consciously or not, every fan has this equation in his or her head when declaring a “winner” for a trade:
(Value of assets acquired) – (Value of assets lost)
If you get a positive number, then you obviously made a good trade. What exactly goes into “value,” though? There are the obvious things like hitting, defense, and pitching, and then there are other considerations like contracts, service time, and team needs. These secondary factors make it possible for both teams to come out ahead. This has nothing to do with whether or not you subscribe to sabermetric principles, by the way. You can use numbers or not, it makes no difference to me, as long as every aspect of a trade is considered with the information known at the time.
So what if Nick Swisher hit .219 last season? Tell me about his contract, his service time, who else we got and who else we gave up. Using the outline above, I think the Yankees made a good deal. I know that if he’s out of baseball in three years, my opinion won’t change.
I hope this will help encourage everyone here participate in a more intelligent, well-reasoned debate.
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Thanks, Dan. Intelligent, well-reasoned debate? Are you tying to kill my traffic? Just kidding.
Coming tomorrow: Jim from the Giambi Mustache Squad.
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on Saturday, January 31st, 2009 at 12:10 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
http://latimesblogs.latimes.co.....ero-t.html
This is the link Pat is referring to in the previous thread.
I could live without the “Alex is a jerk” bit, which I don’t think is true and I don’t think his teammates think that (they may have at one point), but other than that – all these sports figures are arguing what many of us have argued here: Joe betrayed a trust. Period.
Pat M. – obviously I haven’t read the book, but we are simply not on the same page here. It doesn’t matter to me that these revelations take up only a few pages in the book. I never said the whole book was a slash and burn job – I have no doubt much of the book is very interesting. Nonetheless, words hurt – and those words, few as they may be, are on the record. I feel it’s disgusting.
Torre is as much an author as I am a pirate ship captain.
“The veteran players will say they either didn’t read the book or that they don’t care and that will be that.”
ANSKY won’t read the book, doesn’t care and that’s that.
ANSKY just realized he’s speaking of himself in the third person. Would Rickey mind if he did?
CURRENT players will say they have not read the book or that they dont care but ex players like wells is certainly taken offense to the book. I have no clue if he read it yet but that guy is peeved. I mean it is david wells but some other ex players might read the book and also take offense which would carry the story on for a while yet. I dont think we will stop hearing about this book by the second day of ST. Out of yankee camp in tampa – probably but out of the mainstream media who love controversial stories – doubtful.
That story about tino and torre never really getting along certainly could draw some interest. I dont know what the exact quote in the book is but I dont think many people would have guessed that there were problems between those two.
It also has some harsh words about the entire teams feelings towards pavano some of which im sure pavano never knew about. Of course, he deserves it but that could draw some more lashing out from the guy who never stops on the field but never seems to say anything right either. I mean he left the yanks in disgrace and still had the “sand” to imply that the team never had his back. I am sure he will have something to say about anything even remotely controversial coming out of the book. He is a moron afterall.
that was supposed to say never STEPS on the field not never STOPS on the field. pavano never stops on the field? HA thats a laugh.
His stuff about k brown seemed a bit private as well.
Im sure one of those stories will draw some less than kind replies to torre’s stories.
Dan – your post was strange but you get an A in my book for hUGHES being your favorite player.
I have nothing to say about this post as I didn’t really get it’s point. Oh well.
I dont think hardly any one on this blog thinks the swisher trade was not a positive move. I think that was one of cash’s best trades in his career that was not a midseason salary dump by a small market team for prospects which shouldn’t really count except to say that cash got to it before any other big market club.
pAT M,
I think your dead on. Does torre need money or more fame? Doubtful. And i dont think he decided to have someone else write a book for verducci’s financial gain. Frankly, I dont see why he could not at the very least wait until he was out of baseball and all of his ex-players were out as well. Even then, it would have been controversial but not nearly as much as it is now. To take one step further, if only a few pages have derogatory comments about players why not edit those out? So they can top the bestsellers list? Not worth the massive hit torre’s character has taken this week. And im sure some of his own dodger players lost some trust in him as well. Torre went from a massive success to a well-respected figure in the yankee community to public enemy number one. Dumb move Joe, dumb move.
TORRE:
“I don’t think so, because, again, when — the other question was am I burning any bridges?
I did not burn any bridges. As I say, when I — when I talked about what went on in the clubhouse, I think — *I don’t think there was any sensitive material that was in there that I felt shouldn’t have been in there.”*
TORRE: Bobby Abreu, would he be a possibility?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would he have problems?
TORRE: “Would he have problems because of the book? I don’t think I say anything bad about Bobby Abreu. *I don’t think I said anything about anybody.*”
Sounds to me like a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality.
If others can diagnose depression, I can diagnose denial.
Betsy I’ve read harser things wriiten here amongnst the regular bloogers than anything that has been released under the veil of sensationalism this past week concerning the Yankee Years
Pat,
None of us are an ex-yankee manager who was in the clubhouse for years and trusted by players to keep things confidential? We are NOT publishing anything about the yanks for the whole country to read about private moments with current players. Pleeeease – that is no comparison. How could you compare what a blogger write in lohud to the ex-manager of the yankees publishing a book about his former team with many of the players still playing.
So, Nelson Doubleday finally gets back at George Steinbrenner for all the years that the Mets have been the city orphans. He doesn’t own the Mets now, so it took him 10 years to finally get a little revenge.
Coming tomorrow? But tomorrow is February, Pete! I thought *January* is traditionally a slow month for baseball news!
Its a matter of breaking trust, the trust of a player for his manager. I feel bad for Joe actually because i doubt any intelligent player would ever trust Joe to keep anything confidential ever again. And he really tarnished his talents because he was always known as the “out of game” manager who could confront and solve problems among players in the clubhouse, the “player’s manager.” What player will trust him with their problems any more. I actually dont feel bad for him because he did it to himself. i THINK its moronic but its his life and he deserves whatever he gets.
What is the defintition of harsh, maybe we have a different concept ….The onlything that I’ve read or heard so far was the Kevin Brown incident in the lockerroom refusing to pitch..I did cringe a bit when that was posted….I also remember him telling Torre that he was fine for his start vs. Boston in Game 7…..Over reactions at it’s best the past few days here…What’s most disturbing is how little anyone really knows about the book, other than the releasing of some interest raising supposed quotes……
Pat M,
We know he said some derogatory statements about his own players and revealed things that the player likely wanted to remain confidential. Doesn’t matter if that happens for 400 pages or a single paragraph – it does not seem write for a manager to reveal private clubhouse moments that would make the player it is about cringe or lash back. We dont need to read the entire book to realize a few paragraphs were not appropriate to be published. And we know torre did not get permission from the players he discusses because wells is pissed about it.
From Verducci:
“The single most important element to the decline of the Yankees, at least as a postseason team, was the annual decline in their starting pitchers’ ability to miss bats. Year after year the strikeout rate for their starting pitchers declined. Combine that with the lack of left-handed starters to pitch in Yankee Stadium, and the Yankees were no longer so fearsome in the postseason. That’s why the health of Joba Chamberlain is so important to the Yankees’ return to greatness, though the additions of CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett were shrewd moves to give them more “pure stuff” that will make them a better playoff team.
Amen! Contrary to what many here seem to believe, it’s easier to pitch yourself a ring than hit yourself a ring.
Aw, I get the feeling Dan isn’t going to get much love due to intense desire to talk about Joe Torre. Don’t worry Dan, now you know how the Superbowl feels.
“Torre went from a massive success to a well-respected figure in the yankee community to public enemy number one. Dumb move Joe, dumb move.”- dave
pat m-
are you bothered by anything you’ve seen torre say?
i’m not at all.
funny how it doesn’t seem to bother us.
dave-
that must be a good med school that you go to. not only do you learn all about medicine, but you get to know everything about baseball too.
some team should do a season long reality tv show and show fans what it’s like being in a clubhouse.
The parts that I have a problem with is things that happened in the clubhouse should not be in the book at all. Whether they were negative or just giving out information on stuff that happened. The Brown story is totally wrong. Even saying that the players hated Pavano. Every one knows that but he didn’t have to speak for them. Also I would think that Cashman had a big problem with Torre saying that Cash did not want Bernie on the team at all. Torre said I asked but Cash wouldn’t even listen to me. It is known that Cash didn’t want him but he didn’t have to reveal personal conversations that he had with the GM on players. That makes Cash look bad to Bernie.
In about a month from now, there’s going to be many a person here that’s going to look foolish and maybe even feel a little foolish……Randy I, in all years in lockerooms, did you ever see a ballplater sqwat when taking a leak ???? I never did….
Torre is delusional. He said that he thought that he and Alex would hug the next time they meet.
If I were Alex, I’d punch him in the face the next time I saw him.
nice post
NYYFAN….I’m certain you’d ask for Torre’s autograph
“Also I would think that Cashman had a big problem with Torre saying that Cash did not want Bernie on the team at all. Torre said I asked but Cash wouldn’t even listen to me. It is known that Cash didn’t want him but he didn’t have to reveal personal conversations that he had with the GM on players. That makes Cash look bad to Bernie.”
so what? cashman did what he did. torre gave his opinion on it. bernie williams can make up his own mind what he thinks about it.
i know i’ve never looked at cashman the same after the way he treated bernie williams.
it was when i knew cashman was getting carried away with his autonomy and thinking he was more important than he was.
This excerpt below from the Torre book made me wonder where Joe’s head is at.
Randy Levine is President of the Yankees. He’s been in that role since 2000. Yes he’s a bozo. The number of people who are in the Levine fan club could fit in the palm of my hand. The number of people in the fan club not named Levine could fit in a thimble.
Where I work, I don’t think the president of my company is Albert Einstein. Still if I was in a meeting with my company president I don’t think I would tell him to “shut the bleep up”.
Has anyone here tried that with the president of their company? I want to know how it worked out before I try it myself.
Torre thinks Levine had it in for him since then. Geez, I wonder why.
———————————————————
You know what, I’m sick and tired of this —,” Torre told Steinbrenner. “You keep pounding at me, pounding at me, pounding at me, and it bothers me. I probably shouldn’t tell you that, but it bothers me.”
At that point, according to the book, Levine, who was listening via speaker phone from New York, began to speak, but Torre quickly cut him off.
“Randy, shut the — up,” Torre said.
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pat m-
no i haven’t .
Pat M and randy
Why the condescension? If you have incite to share, enlighten but don’t put people down for that lack of incite or the absence of a Y chromosome.
Also Levine knows zip about baseball…..He’s a work relations arbritrator I believe….He should very little imput regarding on the field operations…He’s moving in quickly to fill the vacumn of power that George left behind…..No body but nobody had an issue with Torre’s first book about the 96 season…..Far more clubhouse revelations were brought ot light…Boggs gets tweaked when they acquire Charleie Hayes, or Tino getting benched for Fielder, or Ranines riding the pine in favor of Strawberry….Oh that book had a happy ending……
pat: well said.
“so what? cashman did what he did. torre gave his opinion on it. bernie williams can make up his own mind what he thinks about it.”
Everyone is going to have their own opinion on whether Bernie should of been brought back or not. I just don’t think it is right that Torre used a personal conversation like that in the book. Especially about someone as popular as Bernie. I am sure Torre and Cash have disagreed about a lot of things threw the years but everyone doesn’t have to know.
DT-
your analogy falls short because many baseball players and managers are often more important to a team and make more money than someone like randy levine.
baseball players are not employees in the way most people are employees.
many of them to do tell front office people to bleep off.
it’s all who has the power.
part of the problem with the present yankees is that there are not enough coaches in the system who would tell the front office where to go when they deserve it. why do you think there are no old time coaches in the system any more? they have been eliminated and replaced with no name yes men. you think zimmer wouldn’t speak his mind to randy levine or even george in his day?
think again.
Does any one know who is showing the home opener? Its a Thursday and as far as I know that’s when MLB network is showing games and if I were launching a baseball network I’d want the Yankees first game at the new stadium on it.
I’m out of the NY region so I’m need to figure out which sports package I have to nag my wife about until she will let me add it. She claims she wants to spend time with me so my plan is to be so obnoxious that me watching games will preferable.
pat-
some of the toughest and best athletes i’ve ever been around have been women.
pat m was saying something else and he’s right.
pat m was simply talking about being tough and thick skinned. sensitive types do not survive in the locker room culture. male or female.
i don’t think this is a blog fight that either pat m or i want, but it’s just hard listening to the whining of people who wouldn’t last a day in a pro locker room act like they know everything about it.
I remember that day so vividly, the day the media reported that Joe Torre was on his way down to Tampa with Cashamn in tow to personally met with the new power brokers that were now running the NY Yankees…..I was stunned when it was announced that he was walking away……I clearly recall telling a Yankee long time season ducket holder that I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that meeting…Well now we’re all been invited to that meeting…..Other than Cashman and Torre, and a fading George Steinbrenner, that room was filled otherwise with suits who are more concerned about getting diamond dust on their oxfords decided it was time to force Torre out…And Cashman knew he was next if he didn’t tow the New Company line…..
You know what’s great, I can read your favorite player is Phil Hughes and I can automatically know I’m going to hate your post and I can just skip it. That info helped
“it’s just hard listening to the whining of people who wouldn’t last a day in a pro locker room act like they know everything about it.”
That’s quite a cross to bear. People with different experiences commenting on a blog! The nerve.
What Pete really needs to do is institute some type of tiered commenting system, so nobody who’s played ball professionally has to be bothered by the niggling comments of those who haven’t – you know, the regular fans of the Yankees.
Torre had to go. I’m sure cashman knew it, which was why he didn’t keep fighting for him. 2008 was a transition year. Can’t do transition with torre. Too much winning history. Either trade for santana and keep torre or keep the kids and move on. They chose the kids. And I’m glad they did now that teix, cc, and Burnett are here!
Dodgers management must be absolutely thrilled that Torre is busy promoting his book about the Yankees instead of preparing for the upcoming season. I’m sure the players in the Dodgers clubhouse are simply ecstatic that “author” Torre can reveal their secrets and insecurities in the inevitable publication of “The Dodger Years.” Joe must be drooling at the opportunity to describe the difficulties of coaching a character like Manny Ramirez!
In all seriousness, WTF was Torre thinking publishing this now, while the players he named in his book are still in the league and while he is under a managerial contract with the Dodgers? Can you imagine what will happen if Manny refuses to re-sign with the Dodgers because he is afraid that Torre will violate his trust? Absolutely reprehensible & foolish behavior by a man I used to respect.
Nick,
Hear, hear.
My two cents – both Verducci (in the Belth interview) and Torre with Larry King are backpeddling furiously.
They thought it would be a repeat of 2006, when everyone joined them in pointing fingers at the object of their scorn, but times have changed, and they overreached.
A little bit of advice: Shut up about Torre’s book until you read it. He said nothing bad about A-Rod and said a few things about Pavano and Wells – two guys universally hated in baseball.
Read it and understand its context and you won’t feel the need to be outraged (or maybe you will, though i doubt it).
Randy,
Since WHEN in this blog do we need to be in a certain position in order to have an opinion on the matter? So next time I talk to you about what i THINK cash should do, I should bite my tongue and wait until I get a chance to be the general manager for a professional baseball team before I debate whether or not cash should sign an FA?
iF NOT and im sure you agree that is a ludicrous thing to believe then why cant I or anyone else in here say that they feel what torre did was wrong without ever stepping foot in a major league clubhouse? No one cares that he wrote a book – hell, he can write ten books. But it is common decency when you are a well-respected and trusted individual in an organization to not air all the organizations dirty laundry or even some of it, the year after you leave to the entire country… Is that so insane an opinion?
Im not telling you what to think or anyone what to think but it is my opinion that talking about Brown having something of a nervous breakdown in the middle of a playoff game, saying that pavano was hated by everyone in the organization, saying that he never got along very well with Wells or Tino or anything of that nature is too private to be telling the world without that player’s consent even if it is already known. Its not about them being tough athletes or men or anything like that. It doesn’t matter if these are male athletes or not, it is just not appropriate and he lost a lot of respect in NY this week because he wanted to make a quick buck… I hope it was worth it for Joe.
myrtle beach fan,
I think most of us have read a good portion of the more controversial passages. It is pretty evident that Torre breached the trust of a few of his ex-players. I know its a 470 something page book but I have heard at least ten paragraphs discussing private clubhouse discussions with players and management that should not be generally known and would probably embarrass a few. When torre decided to write this book, Im sure he thought he was going to walk very close to cross a line with a few of the names in this book. Im sure he did not expect this kind of public reaction but there is no way he thought including all of these passages without consent was completely appropriate like he is saying now.
statistically speaking this blog had basically no statistics, and no point.
he starts out by calling cash and idiot and doesnt back it up at all. he says he’s going to analyze trades, then only mentions one in passing without making any conclusion.
at what point did the writer realize that he was going to run out of words without even beginning to make his point? i realized it about halfway through, but it had that car crash effect of making me read the rest to see how bad the crash was.
it was bad.
sorry guy, better luck on your blog.
Re: the pinch-hitting post. All set-up and no payoff. Pete — did you forget to post the rest of it?
This was a senseless post Pete. REALLY!
500 words to say you can’t judge any trade by what happens after its made.
huh, i just did it in 15 words.
Pete, maybe next year your guest blogs can be about something.
without him even making the point i disagree. judging a trade only by what was known at the time of the trade absolves any discussion of the result. im sorry but baseball, like life itself is results-oriented. i’ll give you that in most cases injuries cant be anticipated but to try to analyze trades w/o any discussion of the results is statistical masterbation imo.
So, I come on this blog and the first words I read are “statistical masterbation”. I need coffee.
You can’t judge a trade by results if a freak injury, or injuries occur, such as Griffey Jr. with the Reds. However, when both players are able to perform, it is perfectly legit to judge by results. Weaver vs. Lilly-while Lilly hasn’r been a great pitcher since he left, he has been ok. His level of performance could have been anticipated before the trade. Weaver is, I think, out of the league now. Insightful scouting should have seen that his motion and breaking ball are batting practice for lefties.
On the other hand is the Arod-Soriano deal. At first it looked like slight Yanks advantage, but the Rangers were getting a much younger and cheaper player whose numbers were close to Arod, or would be in a few years. Turns out Soriano is actually within about a year of Arod’s age, now is very costly, and plays the outfield, and has never approached the two great seasons he had in Pinstripes. Arod, of course has won 2 MVPs, etc. Big advantage Yanks in this one.
So the instant analysis is all that matters. The long term results don’t?
“So the instant analysis is all that matters. The long term results don’t?”
If you are directing this to me, no, I am saying just the opposite. The Arod deal looked slight Yanks advantage at first, looking back, it was a great deal. If the Yanks win at least a couple WS with Arod, it could be an all time great deal.
The Weaver deal looked like a steal for the Yanks at first. It wasn’t a big win for the Tigers since Lilly went to the A’s, but in retrospect, the Yanks would have been far better off had they not made that deal. Big minus there.
Is it true that A-Rod got the ” No Spitting” sign from the old Yankee Stadium?
What a score.
Now that Shea has been cut in half is it possible for someone to wake up and preserve Yankee Stadium
The stage for Ruth and Gehrig should not be reduced to a maze of half pipes and monkey bars
In my opinion the Swisher trade was idiotic!
hobbie
before they came up with the current plan i was advocating building the new YS adjacent to and attached to the old one.
they could still have held occasional games in the old one using all the new clubhouse and office facilities, and in the PS they could have sold overflow tickets to the old stadium (with a huge new jumbotron) for like $25 per seat and paid for the upkeep of the old park.
Mark in Tampa January 31st, 2009 at 8:12 am
“You can’t judge a trade by results if a freak injury, or injuries occur, such as Griffey Jr. with the Reds. However, when both players are able to perform, it is perfectly legit to judge by results.”
- – - – - – - – - –
Exactly. When someone comes up with any other way to tell whether a trade was good or not let me know. I’ll then know to ignore whatever it is they say.
Lot of respect for Cornell University. Except maybe for their baseball curriculum… bad results.
new york is an out-with-the-old and in-with-the-new kinda town. new yorkers generally dont go to see fraunce’s tavern or even know where any of new yorks history took place. its not suprising that boston, with its (over?) respect for its great history, doesnt want to tear down its quaint but totally inadequate ballyard. new york cant wait for the new one to open and doesnt even want to look at the old one anymore.
i think its a mistake to demolish the old yankee stadium but i doubt new yorkers will regret it much.
I am absolutely astounded that a guy with the global respect that Torre enjoyed would resort to this. At first, I was sure that it was all New York press hyperbole, but the hole just seems to get deeper by the day.
One has to wonder if Torre, once the personification of professional class, can ever recover from this self-inflicted damage.
I was confused by the blog post but you did say that Brian Cashman is an idiot which I would agree with.
John, the only people that most likely have a problem with Torre are Yankee fans. I don’t think any one else in the country cares what Joe Torre says. It’s us Yankee fans that he made pissed.
Here in Northwest Ohio, we Yankees fans are outnumbered. But even my Tigers and Indians buddies always had the utmost respect for Torre. They, like me, are very surprised that this is unfolding as a huge breach of trust and protocol.
What a useless post!
As for Torre, I’ve said he’ll have problems with Dodgers players and possibly the GM who can not trust that their confidences will be kept. He traded on his career, his integrity and his reputation to sell some books. He has the right to do so, but it seems like a bad trade off.
Cashman was right to want Bernie Williams to retire. He had lost it as an outfielder and LH hitter so all he would have been is a part-time RH DH. I don’t know if Cashman articulated that to Bernie or made any kind of offer to him for that role, but it’s pretty telling that no other team made any effort to sign him after the Yankees chose not to.
Bernie was NOT treated badly, contrary to some views. He was treated like an aging player who wasn’t good enough any more. It was sad, but true.
The thing is trades are evaluated both short- and long-term and both are fair. It is fair to say the Weaver deal looked good at the time, based on the set of circumstances present at the time, and then to re-judge it down to road as a trade that didn’t work.
A lot of trades don’t work and it doesn’t necessarily mean that the rationale behind the trade was faulty.
I think what you want to see is a GM who doesn’t do knee-jerk trades. Also, you can’t judge a GM on one or two trades, but on the entire body of work. No GM is clinker-proof. I think Cashman has done pretty well, especially with his in-season trades.
But of course I never played the game, and am a lowly female, so what do I know??
Bernie was an excellent player for almost a decade, and he was well paid for it. When his skills eroded, it was clear he was no longer an everyday player, and with his remaining skill set, it was clear he would be nothing more than a semi-productive DH, a spot that was already logjammed on the Yankees.
Toward the end of his career, it seemed like Bernie took his cues more from a sense of entitlement, vs. the reality of his age. In fact it seemed as though the Yankees went the extra mile trying to cajole Bernie into coming to ST a couple years back, but apparently he wouldn’t even return phone calls. What more could be asked?
I find no problem with the way the Yankees handled Bernie. I find it amusing the Yankees are criticized ad nauseum for paying premium $ for talent, while also being lambasted when they try to cut ties with aging vets, and actually have the audacity to ask a declinging vet to earn his roster spot.
86- you hit the nail on the head, the proof in the pudding, is where were all the other ML offers for Bernie after his career with the Yankees ended?
If you have any sense of Yankee history, you don’t trade a young Lefty, for a young Righty.
Ever?
86
Bernie was NOT treated badly, contrary to some views. He was treated like an aging player who wasn’t good enough any more. It was “sad, but true.”
- – - – - – - –
Sad but True. The immortal words of James Hetfield. And they probably apply here.
What we don’t know though is everything that may have been said between the Yanks and Bernie that doesn’t get reported. It’s why teams and players like to avoid arbitration too. The team is forced to explain all the reasons why the player is not worth what he is asking and it can cause bad feelings.
But the fact is no other team offered him a contract so from a purely practical sense, yes, the Yankees appear to have been right in not bringing him back. I’m sure Bernie, who obviously wanted back, was hurt by that. I wish the dynasty of Bernie et al could go on forever, but of course it can’t.
If the Yankees had signed Beltran, there wouldn’t have been any question about Bernie’s retirement. Bernie looked at his replacements in Center, and told himself, and anyone who would probably listen that at 37/38, he was better than those guys, and you know what? He would be right. Melky can’t hold Bernie’s jock.
Doreen,
You can trade an old lefty, like Wells, for Clemens, but you never give up a young lefty too quick. They sometimes take a little longer to come into their own, but stick around later in their careers. Young Righty’s usually show what they are sooner. Lefty’s are a deceptive group.
You can’t analyze a trade in isolation, you have to look over the repercussions of what they got, what they lost and what roster moves could/couldn’t be made as a result both then and in the few years following.
The whole body of work has to be viewed as Doreen says. I think you need 5 years to assess a GM’s effectiveness. Even then, with LT prospects, 5 years might be too short, but IMO you have to draw a line somewhere.
Overall, I’ve been impressed with Cash on several fronts(focusing on the farm, setting up an organization that is doing well in developing pitching talent, and his arbitration decisions) and unimpressed in other areas (unimpressive draft hauls for position players, poor organization development of positional talent, and dropping the ball on the 08 draft- a colossal failure getting fooled by Cole. Can’t get hoodwinked with your first pick.
I give Cashman an overall B+, but there is room for improvement.
“I give Cashman an overall B+, but there is room for improvement.”
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I’m sure Brian will be thrilled with the grade he’s received from you and will be hitting the books extra hard so as to procure an “A” next semester. lol.
Few people remember that Buck Showalter took the Yankees to the ‘95 playoffs and even though the team didn’t get to the World Series, they could have had the same run or better with Showalter as they did with Torre who just happened to fall into some good luck and good core of developing players plus some smart trades. The real Torre surfaced after the 2001 season and showed his true worth. The Dodgers have started to see it already.
I think this is a first. Torre’s book left Tommy LaSorda speechless. (or possibly you can gather his opinion from a non-answer)
Should Dodgers manager Joe Torre have co-authored The Yankee Years? will the book be a problem for Torre?
“I like Joe very much. He’s a good friend of mine. I don’t want to get involved in it, so let’s move on to another question. That’s usually not me. I usually give my opinion, but Joe’s a good friend of mine and I don’t even want to say anything about it.”
http://www.rockymountainnews.c.....artner=RSS
After reading all of the comments on Torre it’s evident that the majority of the posters on this blog are less than happy with what Torre has done.
I am going to guess that the few who took Torre’s side are old timers. Well you know that the Old but Wise guy is since he tells you he is. The older people get the harder time they have with change. If they have always worshipped Torre they’re going to find every reason in the world to keep doing it even if it means that they make excuses for things he does or calls it okay.
Younger people have an easier time adjusting to things. They may not like thing but they can adjust more quickly. There are exceptions in both groups but usually that’s the way it goes.
Punchline. Don’t expect Randy, Pat M or Old but Wise fan to every back off on their position. They’ll find a way to explain away words in a book by telling you that Torre’s words in an interview trump what’s in the book. Not worth the breath to argue with them.
“I’m sure Brian will be thrilled with the grade he’s received from you and will be hitting the books extra hard so as to procure an “A” next semester. lol.”
———–
On the contrary, I seriously doubt Cash would care one iota what grade he gets from someone on a blog.
But, hey, I’m glad your sure he’d be thrilled!
Nick in SF if you want a tiered structure then I think the people who have to be at the top of the tier need to be people who are sports figures right now since we know they are the real deal. Anyone can come on a blog and say they did anything.
How do sports figures feel about Torre’s book? This is from Lisa Guerrero’s column:
*********************************
“It’s terrible,” Floyd Mayweather Jr. says of Torre’s tome. I caught up with the undefeated welterweight champ at Jim McMahon’s Swang “N” Super Bowl Bash celebrity golf tournament on Thursday in Bradenton, Fla.
“It’s not right. A manager is a father figure to his players. He broke their trust. Problems should be resolved in private in a positive way, not written about later in a book. I don’t approve … what a betrayal!”
*********************************
Otis Wilson (Chicago Bears 1980-88 and Raiders ‘89-90) wondered, “What message does this send to the Dodgers in the locker room? Believe me, there will be no trust with that guy. Players will be worried about what they say in front of him. Why would he do it? Does he need the money?
His disgust was shared by O.J. Anderson, former Cardinal from 1979-86 and Super Bowl XXV MVP while with the Giants. Everyone has an opinion, Anderson said, “but a manager shouldn’t share his in a book.”
*********************************
My husband, Scott Erickson, was in the Yankee locker room in 2006 and acknowledged that many of those stories about Rodriguez are true. He takes issue with the fact that Torre or anyone writing about certain players’ bad behavior, but then chooses not to write about others.
Will Torre “out” the guys who cheated on their wives or cheated on the game (steroids, etc.) if he personally liked them, even if he knew about those stories? And believe me, a manager
does. Picking and choosing who to rat out is the manager’s prerogative, I suppose. Kinda like who to start, who to bench and whose dirty laundry you want to air in public
**********************************
As Mark Rypien, Super Bowl XXVI MVP, told me at the tournament’s pairing party last night, “What happens in the locker room should stay in the locker room. I feel sorry for the Dodgers.”
*************************************
So you can imagine that any Dodger player with a brain will be walking with two feet in one shoe around Torre. They will be guarded in their interactions and what they say. Maybe that translates onto the field. Anyone who says that’s okay needs a head check.
What does that have to do with Torre’s book? What happens in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse. That was his chant when he was with the Yankees. He’s broken trust and he’ll never get it back.
Gotham time
January 31st, 2009 at 9:54 am
Few people remember that Buck Showalter took the Yankees to the ‘95 playoffs and even though the team didn’t get to the World Series, they could have had the same run or better with Showalter as they did with Torre who just happened to fall into some good luck and good core of developing players plus some smart trades. The real Torre surfaced after the 2001 season and showed his true worth. The Dodgers have started to see it already.
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Give me a break! Buck was a disaster. He would have never implemented all the changes made from 95 to 96. Over half of the team were different players. Buck screwed up so badly the Yankees fired him after 1 year even though they made the playoffs. Go look up the team players on 95 & then 96 when Torre started.
This crap of it being Buck’s team that almost made it is full of S__T!!!
RayVTNC, sorry I forgot to add you to the list with Wise Old Fan, Randy, and Pat M.
“It’s terrible,” Floyd Mayweather Jr. says of Torre’s tome.
———————————————————–
Floyd Mayweather Jr. said that?
REALLY?
FLOYD MAYWEATHER JR. SAID THAT?
My God! Lisa has proved her point beyond the shawdow of a doubt!
(although if Floyd Mayweather Sr. said it too, well… then it must be etched in stone.)
I’m trying to figure out what it means to be walking with “two feet in one shoe.”
I don’t know if it’s advanced age Old Yanks fan but a lot more than Mayweather were quoted. I guess none of them count.
Mark it means it’s the only way you can watch every step you take.
“But of course I never played the game, and am a lowly female, so what do I know?? ”
good morning doreen-
that was fun last night wasn’t it? lol.
what was really happening during the interview was that 99% of the blog was calling torre every name in the book. public enemy #1.
pat m was bothered by what torre said. i wasn’t. old yanks fan wasn’t.
we didn’t think torre was public enemy
#1.
you may not like it. the blog may not like it, but experience matters. i can say i l like bruce springsteen’s music, but i have zero experience with music except listening to it( this is true).
i am limited about what i know by my lack of experience . i am limited by my lack of musical experience what i can talk about with authority. i can describe what i feel about it, but i’m not going to be able to go very deep about technical musical things or the behind the scenes musical culture that i’ve never experienced.
i would not presume to know the unwritten rules of bruce springsteen’s bands inner workings or the unwritten rules of being on the road together on a concert tour.
because i like his music, it doesn’t mean i know a whole lot about it.
now about women on the athletic field, i’ve had my butt whipped in tennis, golf, beach volleylball, and been run into the ground by women in long and short distance running. athletes are athletes. the problem for me in those cases was they either had more talent or more experience or both.
this isn’t about the sex of the athlete.. it’s about people that actually do things and take the heat and people who sit on the sidelines and play the critic.
correction: “pat m wasn’t bothered by what torre said.”
randy athletes are athletes? These are FAMOUS athletes the ones who were really in the trenches so knew the gig from top to bottom. I don’t think semipro or sandlot counts as high on the scale. They don’t agree with you.
*********************************
“It’s terrible,” Floyd Mayweather Jr. says of Torre’s tome. I caught up with the undefeated welterweight champ at Jim McMahon’s Swang “N” Super Bowl Bash celebrity golf tournament on Thursday in Bradenton, Fla.
“It’s not right. A manager is a father figure to his players. He broke their trust. Problems should be resolved in private in a positive way, not written about later in a book. I don’t approve … what a betrayal!”
*********************************
Otis Wilson (Chicago Bears 1980-88 and Raiders ‘89-90) wondered, “What message does this send to the Dodgers in the locker room? Believe me, there will be no trust with that guy. Players will be worried about what they say in front of him. Why would he do it? Does he need the money?
His disgust was shared by O.J. Anderson, former Cardinal from 1979-86 and Super Bowl XXV MVP while with the Giants. Everyone has an opinion, Anderson said, “but a manager shouldn’t share his in a book.”
*********************************
My husband, Scott Erickson, was in the Yankee locker room in 2006 and acknowledged that many of those stories about Rodriguez are true. He takes issue with the fact that Torre or anyone writing about certain players’ bad behavior, but then chooses not to write about others.
Will Torre “out” the guys who cheated on their wives or cheated on the game (steroids, etc.) if he personally liked them, even if he knew about those stories? And believe me, a manager
does. Picking and choosing who to rat out is the manager’s prerogative, I suppose. Kinda like who to start, who to bench and whose dirty laundry you want to air in public
**********************************
As Mark Rypien, Super Bowl XXVI MVP, told me at the tournament’s pairing party last night, “What happens in the locker room should stay in the locker room. I feel sorry for the Dodgers.”
*************************************
If Randy Devine lead stiffs had doled out money for an ace Pitcher, oh they did for RJ & Pavano, then more WS would have been won.
In essence the Yankees chased away Pettite & his inning were dearly missed. The Yankees tried the re-tread route and when they didn’t do the due dilligence on Pavano it showed. Even after they saw who Pavano was they still signed him. Incredible.
It wasn’t hitting or coaching that cost the Yankees from 2001 to 2007, & even 2008 it was pitching.
Every Manager makes questionable moves and are 2nd guessed, & that is why a team has a Manager to make the calls. But lets ck what a Manager’s job is:
1. Lead the team.
2. Make a lineup.
3. Get the most out of the players you have.
4. Massage Egos.
5. Pick personel to use out of pool given.
6. Guide the team to win.
7. Choose Coaches & place them in positions to help the team win.
8. Be the interface between players & management.
Well, I think Torre did an excellent job on these items. Some question his handling of the bullpen and most of that was after Mel left which wasn’t Joe’s decision. The Coach selections of Bowa, Pena, Zimmer, Willie, Mel, & others were terrific.
I dare say this, but if Girardi had Bowa as a 3B coach last year the Yankees might have made the playoffs. But Girardi is weak minded & wanted his live in buds as coaches & basically isolated himself from the rest. Note Girardi didn’t have a choice with the coaches who stayed after Joe left because they were chosen by the shirts!
The Yankees have a weak Manager. Hopefully the players skills will overcome this in 2009, unlike 2008. If you want to say injuries kept Girardi’s Yankees out of the playoffs so be it. Torre’s Yankees had major injuries as well but made it EVERY time. Even Torre’s Dodgers as bad as they were & as devastated by injuries as they were made it to the playoffs.
I personally believe if the Dodgers had not made it to the playoffs he would have been loved more by the Yankees. Instead he showed them up. Guess what if the Yankees don’t sign Manny & the Dodgers do, they are set to make a run and could very well be in the WS in 2009. That would be hell if Joe T won another one. But Joe T has had a way since choosing Jeter to start at SS of being successful doing it over & over again. Maybe if Jeter had failed him he would have stcuk with tried & true. BTW, Joe T chose Posada too, as the Yankees got rid of another Joe.
Joe T pushed the right buttons & Manny carried him the rest of the way. Wonder how Dreadlocks & wonderboy Joe G would get along. Hmm! And yes I want Manny as a Yankee. But remember I also said I think Joe G will be gone by July 2009.
“Picking and choosing who to rat out is the manager’s prerogative, I suppose. Kinda like who to start, who to bench and whose dirty laundry you want to air in public”
If Torre was writing this book as a 12 year “piece of history”, when I read the book I’m sure I’ll see a fair and unbiased critique on all the key players during those years and not just the ones he hasn’t spoken to since 2007.
“But remember I also said I think Joe G will be gone by July 2009.”
You’re even crazier than I thought!
I disagree with Dan’s assertion: “First and foremost, the most important part of evaluating any trade is to do the evaluation using only information available at the time.” In theory Dan is right. The trouble is, there’s no objective way to evaluate a trade at the time it’s made. Everyone has their own opinion.
Although Dan is right that a single trade may succeed or fail due to luck, a GM makes many trades and signings. Over a period of years, the luck should wash out. So, I’d evaluate a GM on results. On that score, Cashman has not done well. It’s true that he was forced to make some bad decisions by Steinbrenner, but having the largest budget in baseball ought to have compensated.
Looking at 2009, I’m glad CC, Burnett and Tex signed. However, in a few years we may regret the length of their contracts, just as we came to regret Giambi’s and Abreu’s. And, look at how Matsui’s contract blocks the Yanks from signing Dunn, who is younger and a better hitter. In a few years, ARod’s contract may not look so smart, either.
Torre is a bitter old man, who thought he was the Yankees. The team moved on, and he can’t handle it.
Arod’s contract boils down to one number, 763.
“I am going to guess that the few who took Torre’s side are old timers. Well you know that the Old but Wise guy is since he tells you he is. The older people get the harder time they have with change. ”
from my experience, people that are ignorant when they are young, are ignorant when they are old. age doesn’t really help.
of course you may be the exception to the rule.
Mark in Tampa January 31st, 2009 at 10:27 am
I’m trying to figure out what it means to be walking with “two feet in one shoe.”
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I wonder if those players put their pants on one leg at a time like everyone else or in some way different?
That would mess up a lot of pre-game motivational talks.
sherlockbones – Yup… with about 100 million opinions in this country, quoting 10 cherry-picked people to prove your point is VERY VALID quantitative reasoning.
Maybe we can find another 10 people who want to execute the bastard!
What a pointless waste of time this thing was.
Other than a handful of them, these guest blogs are just brutally awful.
There’s no way you can put your pants on one leg at a time if you have two feet in one shoe!
There are several ways to evaluate trades and all of them have some validity but none are complete.
For example people loooked back on the big trade with the Orioles that gave them Tippy Martinez and Scott MacGregor as a bad deal… and it was in the 1980s… but from 1977-80 that trade helped the Yankees win big.
I hated the Lilly/Weaver trade for a reason the Yankees never looked at in those days, economic impact. I felt Lilly would win a similar number of games in the next four years as Weaver for far less money. Of course Weaver led to Kevin Brown which led to Randy Johnson so that turned out to be an incredibly expensive set of moves.
I liked the Marte/Nady deal at the time, but it didn’t get the Yanks into post-season as hoped, therefore the critics of it have the edge at this stage. I think Swisher and Albaladejo could end up being steals.
As long as the Yankees don’t revert to their habit of dealing young prospects for fading veterans — Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps, Willie McGee for Bib Shirley and Doug Drabek for Rick Rhoden come to mind — I’ll be just fine.
*of course you may be the exception to the rule.*
Once a rat, always a rat. Joe is no exception to the rule.
*quoting 10 cherry-picked people to prove your point is VERY VALID*
Just come to terms with the fact that Saint Joe ain’t a Saint no mo’. I know it’s hard for you guys.
Your eyes hurt because you haven’t used them before, Neo.
“If others can diagnose depression, I can diagnose denial.”
I can not only diagnose it, I can find it for you.
Its a river in Egypt.
“I dare say this, but if Girardi had Bowa as a 3B coach last year the Yankees might have made the playoffs. But Girardi is weak minded & wanted his live in buds as coaches & basically isolated himself from the rest. Note Girardi didn’t have a choice with the coaches who stayed after Joe left because they were chosen by the shirts!”
You can definitely say it, but its making it harder and harder to take anything you say seriously, especially when its not even factual. It’s also becoming more obvious what exactly your agenda in all of this is, lol.
“But of course I never played the game, and am a lowly female, so what do I know??”
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Hey… I resemble that!
This is longest post without saying ANYTHING,
A what do I know….
I read this blog multiple times a day and choose not to post but I couldnt help myself this time.
That was probably the most anti-climatic piece of writing I have ever indulged in. I couldn’t agree with you more, trades are indeed about replacement value… the base of your writing was well stated… and then…