Still plenty of players to choose from
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- January
- 31
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Big plans for today. I’m headed up to my old stomping grounds in Connecticut to see No. 2 UConn play Providence, a team they never seem to beat. It’ll be fun to sit in the stands for a change.
As for the Yankees, one would expect a quiet weekend. Not even book publicists can compete with the Super Bowl. So here are some free-agent leftovers to chew on. It’s shocking the talent still out there considering that February is just about here.
1B: Adam Dunn
2B: Orlando Hudson
SS: Orlando Cabrera
3B: Ty Wigginton
LF: Manny Ramirez
CF: Ken Griffey Jr.
RF: Bobby Abreu
C: Pudge Rodriguez
DH: Frank Thomas
SP: Ben Sheets
SP: Oliver Perez
SP: Tom Glavine
SP: Randy Wolf
SP: Braden Looper
RP: Juan Cruz
RP: Eric Gagne
Also: Andruw Jones, Joe Crede, Jim Edmonds, Cliff Floyd, Garret Anderson, Nomar Garciaparra, Rich Aurilia, Pedro Martinez, Tom Gordon, Eddie Guardado.
It’ll be interesting to see how many of these notable players settle for whatever they can get. Or would some be wiser to wait and hope that jobs open up in spring training? Let’s say Melky Cabrera and Brett Gardner aren’t impressive in spring training. Might the Yankees go get Jim Edmonds?
My faith in Brian Bruney and belief in Mark Melancon is such that I think Juan Cruz isn’t needed. But wouldn’t signing Wigginton, Aurilia or Garciaparra for the bench make some sense? At this point, another million isn’t going to matter.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Jeter, A-Rod, and Nomar on the same team? Imagine that after all these years. Now imagine that happening 10 years or so ago.
“But wouldn’t signing Wigginton, Aurilia or Garciaparra for the bench make some sense? At this point, another million isn’t going to matter.”
I agree, Peter. I guess the problem is that thes guys would want playing time. When are Wiggington, Aurilia, or Nomar going to get at bats? With the infield being locked down by Teixeira, Jeter, A-rod and Cano and having 6 options for the 4 OF/DH spots-there is little room for another “name” guy on the bench.
I would like to see them make a run a Jim Edmonds though…
Interesting pointd about Wigginton, Nomar and Aurilia, Pete. Previously, I wouldn’t have given a second thought to these guys, because I would have thought they’d have gotten offers with greater opportunity to play. But now? I obviously don’t know what they have on the table, but, if they’re not happy with what they’re seeing, maybe they would consider an offer as a backup for the Yanks.
Stranger things have happened.
Honestly, does anyone really think Jim Edmonds could be a better option than Melky/Gardner at this point?
i would sign cruz 71 k’s in 51 inning. it also depends on his price tag. a 4th routh pick i think is worth it
i don’t think snybody can trust bruney giving his track record. Also relief season seem to hit or miss unless you areanelite guy
If Edmonds were to play in a platoon (like he did last season with the Cubs) and play only against RHP he’d most likely be better than Melky or Gardner. He had a .883 OPS vs RHP last season.
I really like the idea of signing Ty Wigginton, just based on his performance last year, .285 AVG, 23 HR 58 RBI in 111 games. Pretty darn good numbers if he were to be a solid bench player.
Of this group I’d like to see the Yanks sign Nomar. If ARod, Jeter, or Cano were injured for a several weeks, their current backups are mediocre. Or, if Cano is worse than last year…
Jim Edmonds cannot, repeat CANNOT, play even a decent centerfield anymore. Everyone screams about Abreu’s poor defense in right field. Edmonds is WORSE in centerfield.
nomar is washed up.
go pc!! sorry pete lol
I have never been much of a fan of Andruw Jones, but why not take a chance? No guaranteed Major League spot, but an invite to ST with a minor league deal, if he would take it. Let him start the year in Scranton, if he is regaining his form, bring him up. If he is still a .180 hitter with no power, and it is apparent he can’t play post-PEDs, release him, no harm done.
Most of theese overpriced has beens will still b available 3 weeks into ST. If the Yanks show any weaknesses, they can add 1 then. I feel very good about where the club is right now on paper. That being said, I feel cruz would b a steal
“I really like the idea of signing Ty Wigginton, just based on his performance last year, .285 AVG, 23 HR 58 RBI in 111 games. Pretty darn good numbers if he were to be a solid bench player.”
i agree w that. ty is a “name” player but he has to know he is no arod, jeter or tex so i dont think he would be bbugging joe to replace them. now if cano doesnt rebound this year thats another story. and who knows, maybe it will light a fire under his butt
If I were in the Yankee Front Office, I’d take a long and hard look at Andruw Jones (at a reasonable price, of course). At 31, he still may have a few years of performance left. His weight is down and may regain much of the range he had during his heyday as the best defensive CFer in MLB.
He’ll never fully regain his past skills again, but could be a better option than the current CF candidates for a year or two.
Wigginton is going to a team that can give him the best chance to play every day, especially, if a team is trying to sign him for only one year. That would kill him for a bigge payday next year after basically sitting all year.
Some of these guys are going to be begging for jobs in the next couple of weeks, you can never have too much bench.
I agree that Bruney and Melancon (as well as Marte) can likely get the job done, but at a bargain basement price given no competitors (due to the draft pick implications for others), I think Cruz would be a wise addition.
You can’t convince me that a package of Nady – Wright – middlin’ prospect won’t return a usable player.
Let us not forget that this dapper gentleman is also available:
http://tinyurl.com/dl3sle
If Jones knows he’s righted himself, he should be begging to be in Yankee training camp knowing that Melky and Gardner are his competition.
Andruw Jones’ bat speed is -gone-. He’s -done-.
If he were willing to accept a minor league deal, the Braves would have signed him already.
I like Nomar as a bench player. If someone told you 8 years ago that Jeter, A-Rod and Nomar would be on the same team together and Jeter would be the starting SS, you would have told them they were crazy.
Mark in Tampa
January 31st, 2009 at 10:32 am
“I have never been much of a fan of Andruw Jones, but why not take a chance? No guaranteed Major League spot, but an invite to ST with a minor league deal, if he would take it. Let him start the year in Scranton, if he is regaining his form, bring him up. If he is still a .180 hitter with no power, and it is apparent he can’t play post-PEDs, release him, no harm done.”
The thing is that Andruw Jones was not even a .180 hitter last year. He hit an impressive .158 last year for the Dodgers!
I happen to like the idea of signing Nomar. He knows better than anyone he is not a full-time player anymore. However, the Yankees offer him an opportunity to get a World Series ring, and he might be willing to go for that. I agree with the idea of not signing Cruz, and keeping a spot open for Melancon (I think this guy has the stuff to become a beast. Perhaps more important has the attitude, and work ethic necessary to become a major leaguer). You need to see what he can do.
Some of those names would be GREAT to sign if we still lived somewhere between 1998-2003, but we simply don’t live there anymore.
The rotation looks good with the starting 5 plus the 2 or 3 guys waiting in AAA for their shot. But Cruz maybe worth signing for the bullpen though. The bullpen’s pretty good but you never know when you’ll wish you had another decent arm in the bullpen. All it takes is two injuries in the rotation at the same time (or in the bullpen, or both) then some guys get tired from overuse and everything’s thrown out of whack. Hopefully the guys waiting for their shot are ready to step up when there are a couple injuries or sore arms in the starting 5.
Right now tweaking the OF may be the only place that could need attention but I guess we’ll soon to see how that works out in ST. It may not be ideal yet but there are 5 or 6 guys in the mix, there’s room to work with and some contracts are ‘up for discussion’ at the end of the year. Plus, once they start playing and we see where all those guys are, there may turn out to be a better OF combination among them than we think (or realize) we have.
And Planet Manny is not a place I want the Yanks to buy a ticket to. Those tickets are only available in the one-way variety. N.F.W.
One more thing … before anyone feels compelled to go off on the Torre book tangent again … enough of the Torre book … please.
whats going on w sanchez?
so which players are out of options? cabrera? bruney? ?????
ray (sox fan) and ANSKY – you’re right. You can’t just sign a name player and expect that they’re still in their prime (Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown,….).
Andruw Jones had a truly horrible year, to the point where the Dodgers restructured his contract in order to get him to leave. Subsequently – if I remember the news article correctly – he was asked to leave his winter league team for extremely poor performance. The Braves’ passed on him. What more evidence do we need that he’s cooked?
Wigginton if he would accept a bench role back up would be an absolute steal. he can play.
LET’S GO HUSKIES! WIN AND TAKE OVER #1 BABY!
“If someone told you 8 years ago that Jeter, A-Rod and Nomar would be on the same team together and Jeter would be the starting SS, you would have told them they were crazy.”
nyyankfan-
i wish that when arod came to the yankee that jeter would have on his own volunteered to moved to third base . arod is off the charts as a shortstop. alex is too big now to make the move, but back then it sure made sense.
you’re right , eight years ago if these three were on the same team, i wouldn’t think jeter would be the shortstop.
garciapparra could be used as a super sub , but it seems like he’s a west coast guy now, and wouldn’t be a great fit because of that. he also seems kind of brittle for part time playing when he could be called on at any time after long periods of sitting.
friars in an upset!!!
The way team budgets are set up could change. Beginning in late March, good players could shake out from teams looking to further slash payroll.
Wigginton will need more playing time than the Yankees can give him. Nomar Garciaparra is too brittle. Because of the WBC, Cody Ransom and Angel Berroa will have more than enough time to show their worth.
the ghosts of Wes Balasuknia and Toby Kimball will provide the edge.
uconn over provindence.
This is not a statement about Tex because I think he deserved a big contract.
But I think if I was a GM I would be hesitant to give the big contracts to Scott Boras clients. Some are doing well, others are just plain awful.
The Dodgers paid big bucks for Jones and got zero production.
Milwaukee gave something like 10 million last year to Eric Gagne and essentially got nothing for it.
Just because Boras says his client is worth it doesn’t make it so.
Joe from Long Island – I’d actually be OK with signing maybe a couple of the old farts or out of shape sloths to minor league deals with no guarantees.
If they were to only get a shot at the majors (and an actual contract) by earning it (meaning, showing they’re capable of contributing more than the guys we’ve already got) then it could be worth a taking a chance in a couple of their cases.
But nothing more than a cheap, non-committal, minor league deal at first and short term commitments if they do earn it. Remember, before that final year-plus when Kevin Brown sucked the suckiest suck that’s ever been sucked, he was actually on a hot streak for a couple months. Important to avoid making 3 year commitments to guys who have a hot half year before permanently reverting to their lukewarm ways.
It is amazing that this many quality players are still unsigned. Having said that, I like two these for the Yanks. Cruz is a proven reliever that, at this point, comes pretty cheap. Looper would add depth to both rotation and bullpen but is likely too expensive. As far as the others:
1B: Adam Dunn (don’t need a 1B & too much of liability in OF)
2B: Orlando Hudson (wants to start, sticking w/Cano)
SS: Orlando Cabrera (wants to start, sticking w/Jeter)
3B: Ty Wigginton (have Swisher, redundant for Yanks)
LF: Manny Ramirez (too expensive, too much of a distraction)
CF: Ken Griffey Jr. (injury risk too high)
RF: Bobby Abreu (have Nady, redundant for Yanks)
C: Pudge Rodriguez (wants to start, sticking w/Molina; but, option if Jorge can’t get behind the plate)
DH: Frank Thomas (don’t need a DH)
SP: Ben Sheets (don’t need another starter, too expensive)
SP: Oliver Perez (don’t need another starter, too expensive)
SP: Tom Glavine (don’t need another starter)
SP: Randy Wolf (don’t need another starter)
RP: Eric Gagne (injury risk too high)
Also: Andruw Jones (minor league deal worth a shot), Joe Crede (see Wigginton), Jim Edmonds (see Jones), Cliff Floyd (see Thomas), Garret Anderson (see Abreu), Nomar Garciaparra (big risk, maybe a reward if he can stay healthy, and back up 2B & SS which he probably can’t), Rich Aurilia (see Wigginton), Pedro Martinez (see Glavine), Tom Gordon (see Gagne), Eddie Guardado (not enough left in the tank).
Current Yanks priority needs: upgrade from Melky/Gardner in CF; upgrade from Ransom/Berroa in 2b/SS back up.
ANSKY – you’re right. But, I think that in the case of someone like Jones, where his trend downward now looks to be an avalanche, you have to believe the evidence.
Milwaukee gave something like 10 million last year to Eric Gagne and essentially got nothing for it.
—————————————————————–
This was a just a dumb move, after how he pitched in 2007, there is no reason why he should have been closing. The fact that it was a only 1 year deal was the only incentive besides actually pitching well for the Brewers to do it.
Ty Wigg wants to get paid like a starter. That ain’t happening. Also, Jim Edmonds wasn’t that good in center last year, but his UZR/150 in center was still much better than Abreu’s in right. Damon, Nady, and Swisher are all at least average at the corner spots, so you could get away with Edmonds in center if you wanted to. Still, I feel that you only bring in Edmonds (or Griffey) if you’re doing a platoon with Nady in right. That implies trading Swisher, but if that’s what has to happen, that’s what has to happen.
If that list isn’t a sign of the economy, nothing is.
(Then I read about Bloomberg’s plan to lay off a ton of people. Holy Toledo.)
Wouldn’t it be amazing if some day a multibillionaire politician who was Mayor of a City whose City has a deficit in the billions would say “Since I have more money than I could spend in 20 lifetimes and since it means more to me that people keep jobs than I have more money than I could spend in 20 lifetimes, I’ve decided to give a billion to the City.” ?
Oh well. I can dream can’t I.
Good morning, randy l.
To reply to your post from the last thread – I’m not sure I would characterize last night as “fun,” but it sure was spirited!
Listen, I know there is an aspect to the game that I cannot “get” because I’ve not played it, nor have I even had access to it on any level closer than being a very involved fan. I can’t pretend to know how players will or will not react to a book by a former manager that discloses what I think of as questionable ‘anecdotes.’ I can’t help but think that on a human level, there must be a player or two somewhere who might be bothered at least a little. Which isn’t to say that it will have any effect at all on how they play they game or even how they deal with their current manager.
I really don’t want to comment on the book any more until I have actually read it. I did read the SI interview of Verducci last night. I’m sure 97% of the book is very compelling read. I’m just struck by some of the inconsistencies. And my reaction to the excerpts is more dictated by the fact that Torre, and specifically Torre, chose to tell maybe a little bit more than he needed to, and only because he made it a point of his tenure as manager of the Yankees to make it clear that clubhouse matters stayed in-house, as much as possible.
My own feeling about instances such as the one that occurred with Kevin Brown (that one for one, really bugs me), is that it was Kevin Brown’s story to tell, not Joe Torre’s. I realize a part of this book, and a huge part of his job, was the players and how he dealt with them in terms of their particular peculiarities. Last night he said it was his intention to make people realize that the guys who play the game are not robots. I can appreciate that, and it is something I’ve said myself here on many occasions. I suppose he needed to illustrate that point, but perhaps in some case, you can agree he might have overstepped just a bit?
Anyway, that’s it.
It did seem the statement by Pat M was a little sexist last night, whichever way he meant it, in view of the fact there were a lot of ladies here last night and many, if not most of us, were (are) perturbed by some of the book’s contents.
trisha – a news item came out this week – Mayor Bloomberg gave $250M to various charities in 2008.
OkulaFan67
January 31st, 2009 at 10:29 am
Jim Edmonds cannot, repeat CANNOT, play even a decent centerfield anymore. Everyone screams about Abreu’s poor defense in right field. Edmonds is WORSE in centerfield.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Thank you. Age and CF is a lethal combination. It’s not a position defensively you can afford to gamble on. Why not just sign Manny and let Cabrera worry about defense? Bonus if he hits like he did in the Domincan League, or even 2006/2007.
in the days of marvin miller when the baseball union was given the choice by the courts of having all players be free agents, the union didn’t want them all to be free agents at the same time because they thought that would drive prices down. the union also agreed to keep young players off the market for 6 years to keep the number of free agents down.
the high number of free agents does seem to be lowering the price. ironically, if all players including young ones were free agents every year salaries probably would go way down .
ANSKY -
I promise, that’s it from me on the verbotten subject.
A lot of the names in that list are intriguing, but I guess it comes down to money, contract length and how willing any of those players is to take a secondary role on a team.
I would stay away from Andruw Jones, though.
And I am really hoping that Gardner and Cabrera have a great spring training, or least one of them does.
Not to belabor the interview last night, but one line that really struck me was when Torre told Larry that he was “relieved” when he left the Yanks. To me when you are relieved you are glad to be over something. Yet Torre said he wanted to sign on for 2 more years. Doesn’t make sense to me.
This team would win 90 games in the National League..
Fran -
I take it as he went into the meeting wanting 2 more years, but at the end of the day (literally), he came to be relieved that it was all over. He has said that that final year was the most arduous, having to face questions on a regular basis about the security of his job.
But I think he was mistaken to think that signing a 2-year contract gave him any real security in Yankeeland. Even with a 2-year deal, if the Yankees had gotten off to a slow start with him in 2008, there would have been questions about how long before the Yankees pulled the trigger on him. The only real security was a financial security – which he talked about – of if he got fired in the first year, he’d have to be paid the full worth of the contract, but if he got fired after the first year there would be some kind of agreed upon buyout. (So, I think it was just at least a little bit about the money, no?)
im sure wiggy, nomar or edmunds’s bat on the bench could help if they came really cheap but who gets tossed from the 40 man to make room?
PLEASE SIGN ANDRUW JONES THERE IS NO RISK …
he wants to play u best beilve he is in the best shape of his life.
I CAN SEE IT NOW A LINEUP
1.DAMON
2.JETER
3.TEX
4.AROD
5.JONES
6.MATSUI
7.POSADA
8.NADY/SWISHER
9.CANO
every day we will have a guy on the bench that can start in
nady or swisher …
molina
back upp in feilder who ever that is who cares
gardner comes off the bench for matsui posada in late innings and any time we nees a stolen base basicly
Is it scary to think that that team would have a chance at finishing close to .500?
justin has a .158 hitter protecting arod.
no risk there.
I HAVE SEEN PICS OF ANDRUW HE HAS VERY MUCH SLIMED DOWN …IF HE GIVES US 260 …25 HOMERS 70 RBI THATS MORE THAT WE WERE GOING TO GET OUT OF THE MELK MAN AND GARNER ANY WAYS …BY THE WAY A 350 ON BASE PERCENTAGE WOULD BE NICE TOO EVEN 330
I’ve been calling for us to sign Garciaparra for the bench all off-season. Of course everyones called me crazy and stupid but I think now the these guys are getting into panic mode that we might be able to snag a guy like Nomar or Wiggington to boost our bench like it hasn’t been since the Championship years. I’d still like Juan Cruz if we could get him though.
good point justin and if key igawa goes 17-4 we can schedule the world series dates right now too.
Nomar would be a great guy for the bench.
Torre was relieved to leave the Yankees?
He was announcing games when the Yankees hired him, I wonder if he ever considered where he would be if they didn’t.
The Mariners and Yankees considered a Hideki Matsui-Washburn swap, but Matsui’s contract ($13MM) pays him more than Washburn’s ($10.35MM) so they didn’t find a match.” – MLBTR
We should have eaten the additional 2.65M and got this deal done! Than signed Dunn to a 1 yr deal. I know he strikes out a lot, but he is a much better DH type than Matsui.
The possible signing of Jim Edmonds is interesting. There is a very good chance that he won’t have a team deep into spring training. He could be a terrific addition to the Yanks.
“Just because Boras says his client is worth it doesn’t make it so.”
———————————————–
Ray – The Yanks didn’t get Tex because of what Boras says.
They got Tex because of what the back of his baseball card says.
And to some extent, because they 2010 FA class is not that great.
If the Nats ended up getting Tex, I wouldn’t be horribly bummed out to lose him. But considering he was well on his way to being a Red Sox, his subsequent aquisition carries that much more weight.
Doreen, Thanks for your point of view. I hadn’t thought of it that way. I guess after all of the speculation at the end of the season as to whether Joe was getting a new contract or not, and reporters staking out his house, he was relieved to get the situation resolved.
I do agree with you that the money was an issue for him despite him saying it wasn’t. He kept bringing up the pay cut. I think that was a factor It’s almost always about the money.
Doreen, My sincere apology for that inside Clubhouse referencce….I was under no circumstances intending to offend or polarized the group here at LoHud…..It’s an expression that sometimes brings into question a ball player’s fortitude…..You even hear on the golf course when a putt comes up short……I truly feel regreat for the poor analogy….Randy I, I thought explained what I was poorly trying to convey………
Uh …mr ham fighter guy i thinkk.. he wouldnt be in the line up or with the club at all if we seen in spring training he couldnt get the job done ……
and by the way yes we r a puttin a 158 hitter behind arod ..did we forget he could also be nick named the 10 time gold glover 5 time all star ..u don’t just forget how to hit in year ok
This is on a minor league contract..spring trainin invite come one don’t bash me ..get ur facts in order
still cant believe the Orioles didnt go in BIG for tex. knowing what him and his wife felt about boston, they would have been the logical next choice had the yankees stayed out of the bidding. big miss there by angelos, but in the end he probably would have missed out.
however, even if the O’s made a big bid for Tex and lost him to the Yanks, they would have earned themselves alot of credit with thier fans. instead they get nothing and remain irrelevant.
doreen-
thanks for the thoughtful answer. i think things got a little out of hand because pat m and i were taking the minority position in what was a feeding frenzy against torre.
nick in sf and i were pretty heated each with his own respective opinion. pat m was talking to me specifically in locker room vernacular . i’ve heard similar things from women athletes referring to toughness. it’s not PC but locker room culture isn’t PC.
i agree that pat m’s words and mine back were probably over the edge of what can be said on the blog. the women athletes i referred to before were either pro athletes or ncaa or olympic athletes. at that level, they are not so PC either. especially when they are using you as a sparring partner and whipping your butt.
i don’t think for a second pat m or i can predict some things about the game any better than you can or nick in sf. there are some points where each one of us has general human experiences that give us insight into things we don’t that much particular knowledge. you may be right about cashman , and i may be wrong. the yankees may win two world series in a row while torre is sitting home for the playoffs.
that said, i think the feeding frenzy against torre on the blog is uncalled for. because some players are real #$#@’s , that doesn’t mean locker room privilege protects them.
wells,brown, johnson are what they are. i don’t think torre said anything that people didn’t already know about them.
unwritten rules evolve. torre has been around as the unwritten rules evolved. he came in when things were one way and now he’s still in the game when there’s more transparency. i think his desire to put out in the open his own’s family demons with his father have something to do with him wanting to puts things out in the light.
maybe he put out too much. maybe he didn’t , but at least he’s trying to clear the air by letting people know more what went on.
there was a time when you didn’t ask a manager anything. yoo did what they said. now there is a back and forth with players and managers. things evolve over time in the clubhouse. i see torre as someone who’s part of that evolvement, and this book as part of that process.
Wiggy.
randy l-
I think there is a BIG difference between saying something that the public opinion already agrees with (i.e. Brown, Johnson don’t fit in here, people not liking A-Rod, Johnny being upset) and confirming or releasing a personal story or experience with that player (i.e. Brown curled up in a ball and wanted to get out of here, Damon wanting to quit, Steinbrenner health, etc)
I think the Steinbrenner health issue is the biggest example of this. We ALL knew the big Stein was is increasingly poor health condition, but, you still don’t publicly release a story stating that he reminded you of the Don in Godfather, except less capable of speech.
Again, one thing to speculate and gossip, its a whole different story to CONFIRM and release private, confidential interactions and conversations.
all i can say is the yankees spent thier money alot better than i ever did.
i did get this cool leopard tattoo in burma, though, or was it singapore…
PLEASE SIGN ANDRUW JONES THERE IS NO RISK …
he wants to play u best beilve he is in the best shape of his life.
—————————————————
IF he wanted to play he wouldn’t have been kicked off his winter league team.
“I do agree with you that the money was an issue for him despite him saying it wasn’t. He kept bringing up the pay cut. I think that was a factor It’s almost always about the money.”
———————————————————–
Dor – Money is ALWAYS a part of the equation. It’s hard to totally ignor Millions of dollars. But I don’t think it was the driving force.
Torre is what? 65 or older? He stated that you don’t cure Cancer, that you simply see how much longer you can live. You don’t believe, knowing his financial, physical and emotional state, that peace-of-mind was a very important part of whatever he did next?
And he admitted that he while he wasn’t happy about a pay cut, it was still a lot of money. What he said last night, and has been saying since the initial event took place, is that he did NOT NEED ‘incentive money’ to motivate him. He was very insulted by this. I mean, do you believe that Torre ‘really didn’t care’ if he made the PS, but that an extra million or two would have him go “oh boy! Now I’ll try harder!”?
The Yanks could have GUARANTEED his one year… that he could not be fired. They could have also put in contract that the FO could not talk to the press about his position.
They could have guaranteed Torre ONE YEAR, and let him manage the first game in the new Stadium, and then retire.
Think how ‘nice’ that would have been. EVERYONE in the Yankee FO SAID they wanted Joe for ‘one more year’. Joe wanted ‘one more year’ (albeit a distraction free year). Yet it didn’t happen.
Torre knew that a one year, non-guaranteed contract would have him checking his back everyday. He did not feel the Yankees really wanted him (and I don’t think they did). He even admitted (which could not have been easy) that at the end, even Cashman thought it was time for Torre to go.
Old(but wise)YanksFan
January 31st, 2009 at 12:07 pm
“Just because Boras says his client is worth it doesn’t make it so.”
———————————————————————-
“Ray – The Yanks didn’t get Tex because of what Boras says.
They got Tex because of what the back of his baseball card says.
And to some extent, because they 2010 FA class is not that great”
I agree with you Old Wise Yanks Fan. As I said in my post I think Tex did deserve a big contract, but some of Boras’ other players have not measured up.
Andrew Jones didn’t forget how to hit in a year. He fell off a freaking cliff. There is more than 1 year of statistics to back this up. He was done when the Dodgers signed him. I was astounded he got more than a minor league contract last time.
I was hoping to see something out of him, he’s been fun to watch, but Gardner is a better hitter now. I would be fine with a ST invite, but I doubt he would win out over Melky and Gardner, who are both young and athletic.
As to Matsui for Washnurn, then signing Dunn: Getting Washburn was a bad idea last year, it still is. Dunn hasn’t shown he can be a better DH than Matsui. He clearly has more power, but the strikeouts are big deal. Giambi part 2 anyone? It also appears that some players don’t handle sitting between innings well. Matsui has shown that he can stay in rhythm offensively without playing defense. That’s worth a few home runs. This all assumes that Mastui is healthy of course.
joey a-
i agree the transparency thing involves knowing when you are crossing a line. i just think the line isn’t as clear as some people believe.
crossing the line is different for different people too. i was around the pro game at a very low level( bullpen catcher). i wouldn’t say much if anything about private stuff that i know . if one of my managers wanted to say something about a locker room i was in, that wouldn’t mean i could. there are different unwritten rules depending who you are.
torre obviously gets more room to say stuff.
that said, he doesn’t get to say everything that goes on. there are lines for everyone and i guess that’s what we’re debating. however, i don’t think he went too far past that line if he did at all.
Big yes to Edmonds. (a) He projects to an OPS of around 850 according to both Bill James and Oliver. CHONE and Marcel don’t like him so much, but the average of the 4 OPS projections is around 800. (He hit 20 HRs in only 340 ABs last year.)
(b) Defensively, he’s not the same player he used to be, but he still checks in at league-average for range (THT) and reportedly still has a good arm.
(c) His salary last year was only $8 million. He’d probably take a one-year deal for less than $5 million, maybe much less.
Overall, that’s a huge upgrade in CF for no real financial commitment. You can still use Gardner for late inning defense and pitch running.
Justin
January 31st, 2009 at 11:54 am
PLEASE SIGN ANDRUW JONES THERE IS NO RISK …
“he wants to play u best beilve he is in the best shape of his life.”
Justin, all I can say is that Sox fans all over are very supportive of the Yankees signing Andruw Jones. His .158 batting average last year makes Varitek look like a real stud!
Fran
January 31st, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Doreen, Thanks for your point of view. I hadn’t thought of it that way. I guess after all of the speculation at the end of the season as to whether Joe was getting a new contract or not, and reporters staking out his house, he was relieved to get the situation resolved.
I do agree with you that the money was an issue for him despite him saying it wasn’t. He kept bringing up the pay cut. I think that was a factor It’s almost always about the money.
*I do not believe Torre thought $$ were an issue.*
He said that he felt like the Yankee front office believed they needed to entice Torre with $$ (incentives) to do his best job. Anyone who knows Joe T knows he is giving his best always. So the incentives in the form of a pay cut was a slap in the face. That along with it only being a 1 yr contract and it would have been like 2007 all over again only worse if that were possible.
*After listening to Joe T, I believe he felt like the shirts were the ones who wanted him out but that they didn’t have the guts to say so publically, something he felt like George would have done. That is why he wrote about George, because if George said it was time then it was & Boom it was done. None of this walking plank every day wondering if this is the day you meet the sharks.
It’s ALWAYS about the money. If they had offered Torre a one year deal for $ 8 million plus the three $ 1 million incentives/bonuses he would have managed the Yankees in 2008.
You think if they offered him three years at $ 2-3 million a year (multi year commitment and security) he would have taken it? Hell no!
I can’t stand phonies and hypocrites. I’m disappointed to learn that Torre is both.
If Andruw Jones would come to camp as a non-roster invitee you’d be crazy not to let him. But I wouldn’t guarantee a dime to a guy who essentially stole $ 36 million from the Dodgers. Maybe he should team up with Paguano in Cleveland.
Wigginton is a much better acquisition than Nomar. He’s younger, healthier, plays more positions and murders lefties. I can see him getting 300 AB and would start him against every lefty. I think Berroa is more than adequate as a middle IF utility guy.
The latest printed version of SI includes the chapter on the infamous last Tampa meeting. Any objective reading concludes that Cashman, as to his “trustworthiness” is cast in a most unfavorable light, as well as having the memory of a dolt. I am not a “Cashman fan”, but it was indeed insulting to him.
Also interesting, in bemoaning the fact that Torre did not have any friends for support, the “author” states “(h)is old ally, Swindal, thanks to one DUI charge, had been run out of the organization and the Steinbrenner family”. Rather silly commentary, if not misleading given the circumstances of Swindal’s inclusion in, his actions during, and his dismissal from, the “inner circle”.
All in all, the compelling sense that I have from this one chapter is that the work is a manifestation of bitterness and sensationalism, and not one that a person of class and respect would lay claim to.
Ansky
“One more thing … before anyone feels compelled to go off on the Torre book tangent again … enough of the Torre book … please.”
- – - – - – - – - – - – -
I figured you were asking a bit much there, Ansk… lol.
Randy l-
JMO, but anytime you give away a story involving a major MLB player and crying, or sitting in a corner and saying he wants to quit or he can’t take it, is overstepping the lines. Especially when that conversation took place between only two people. NOW, throw in the fact that this is the New York Yankees, the most high profile team in all of sports, and I’d have to say, Yea, Joe T broke ALOT of trust issues with both the organization and several players
I understand what you are saying, that most of this stuff isn’t too surprising and we can wrap our head around it happening. But, before this book, it was all speculation and rumors. NOW, it’s all true and now each one of these guys has to relive it everytime they are asked a question.
Thats another part of this story that gets little focus. It’s one thing to air our dirty laundry years from now when the guys arent playing. Damon and Alex are still on the team, and Joe T still coaches! Don’t you think some jerk is going to ask Johnny,
“So do you still want to be here? Do you get a long with everyone now?”
ray ( sox fan)
congrats on having varitek being back in the fold. he belongs on the red sox.
i hope that didn’t come out wrong : )
Andrew Jones is not the answer. I believe Melky is the answer for 2009. AJ probably for 2010, but I believe Melky will really surprise some people.
Remember when Melky 1st came up and how awful he looked? The next year he looked like a different player. Last year he looked good at first and then stunk. Well I believe he was in Joe G’s doghouse, LOL, and didn’t know what to do. This year IMO he will turn it around again. He is a really good defensive CF, who had his head between his legs last year. While Joe G was sulking, the Yankee youngsters struggled. Yes I blame Joe G. I think the AAA trip for Melky & the Winter leagues have put him back to where he is a lot better than 2007 even and w/o saying extremely better than 2008.
You have to have patience with young players. Joe T use to talk with the youngsters and tell them what they needed to improve on or why they were being sent down or spending more time on the bench. There was dialog, not open ended wondering.
So lets give Melky 1 more year in 2009. Gardner as his backup or perhaps replacement if things go badly.
Just in case anyone wanted a signed copy:
On Tuesday, Torre is scheduled to appear at a Manhattan Barnes and Noble on Fifth Avenue at 12:30 p.m. After that, he’ll tape a segment on “Late Show with David Letterman,” and then Torre will be whisked to Little Falls, where he’ll conduct a 7 p.m. signing at the Yogi Berra Museum on the campus of Montclair State University.
On Wednesday, Torre is due at Borders on Broadway in Manhattan at 1 p.m., and will finish up at Bookends in Ridgewood for a 7 p.m. appearance.
86w183
Boy you sound bitter! WHo peed in your wheaties???
I’d rather have Matsui for one year, and $13 million, than sign Dunn for whatever he’d cost, over however many years. Dunn will hit more Homers than Matsui, but he K’s a ton, and some fans of teams he’s played for, say he never comes up big. Matsui is a clutch hitter, and the Yankees dearly missed that last season. I like Matsui’s bat in the line-up.
Plus, we don’t need Washburn, now that andy resigned. How dumb was Seattle last season, for not sending Washburn and his contract our way. Now they are stuck with him, and can’t sign a bat they need (Abreu), cuz they don’t have the payroll available. With Washburn we might have snuck into the playoffs last year, or certainly made it a little more interesting down the stretch. Oh well.
Sign Cruz. While I love our pen, it is still somewhat unproven. Mo is 40, and while he shows no signs of decline, you know at some point he’s going to tail off a little. Like someone mentioned, Marte and Mo arethe only two truly proven arms in the pen. Marte, while very good, has had his ups and downs in the AL. I’d sign Cruz to a one year deal, with the promise not to offer him arbitration next season. Whether or not 1 year of Cruz is worth a 4th rounder I don’t truly know, but it’s certainly something to consider. Worst case, you can always trade him if he A)struggles, or B) is not really needed. From Cruz’ perspective, a 1 year deal, with the certainty of not being offered arbitration next season (he’d be compensation free next offseason), would probably be worth it. The Yankees are likely to carry 11 pitchers minimum, maybe 12 for most of the season, so there would be spots for the youngsters on the 25 man. The pen would then be Mo, Marte, Cruz, with 3-4 others. Bruney, Ramirez, and Veras would be virtual, and if they went with 12 pitchers, that would mean a battle between Giese, Robertson, Albaladejo, and Coke. So basically it comes down to whether or not you’d prefert to have Cruz over any of those last 4 names. With the season being what it is, and pitchers constantly gettingurt, or struggling, I’d prefer to have Cruz, with those others waiting in the wings as replacements.
Randy l-
ALOT is actually two separate words. *(a lot)*
Johnny Damon is actually *Johny Damon*
*Very well said JoeyA *
Rayvtnc
Maybe he sounds a little bitter to you but at least his points make sense.
Real World
I like the way you give a logical reason to things. Although I may not agree with them all it is all explained. I appreciate that!!!
Brad Pitt’s better-looking brother
January 31st, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Rayvtnc
Maybe he sounds a little bitter to you but at least his points make sense.
*Perhaps it sounds bitter too me because I didn’t think they made sense. It sounded really emotional instead of factual.”
RayVTNC
January 31st, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Andrew Jones is not the answer. I believe Melky is the answer for 2009. AJ probably for 2010, but I believe Melky will really surprise some people.
Remember when Melky 1st came up and how awful he looked? The next year he looked like a different player. Last year he looked good at first and then stunk. Well I believe he was in Joe G’s doghouse, LOL, and didn’t know what to do. This year IMO he will turn it around again. He is a really good defensive CF, who had his head between his legs last year. While Joe G was sulking, the Yankee youngsters struggled. Yes I blame Joe G. I think the AAA trip for Melky & the Winter leagues have put him back to where he is a lot better than 2007 even and w/o saying extremely better than 2008.
You have to have patience with young players. Joe T use to talk with the youngsters and tell them what they needed to improve on or why they were being sent down or spending more time on the bench. There was dialog, not open ended wondering.
So lets give Melky 1 more year in 2009. Gardner as his backup or perhaps replacement if things go badly.
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Cabrera is my choice for center field as well. He will have to win the spot in ST, however, and I believe he will.
How do we know that Girardi didn’t explain Cabrera’s demotion to him? Was that stated somewhere? For instance, we know Joe G was communicating with Cano during his struggles.
Torre actually blew it when it came to Cabrera – replacing him in 2006 postseason when it was clear what a positive impact he’d had on the regular-season, in terms of upgrading significantly the outfield defense, contributing tough at-bats at the plate, and generally raising the youth and enthusiasm quotient referenced so many times by guys like ARod and Jeter. Even Torre admitted in hindsight he’d made a blunder.
Pat M -
Apology accepted. And, yes, Randy l did a good job of explaining your statement. It was really the “timing” so to speak – interspersed among a lot of female posts. I know that sometimes each of us is talking to a particular person here at any given point in time, but it gets all mixed up here.
OYF -
I do agree that for Joe Torre, time may have been of the essence in getting the story out. He is not a young man, he has battled cancer. I think he could have waited until he retired, but it’s not really for me to say, is it? To suggest he needed to wait until his former players were out of the game is a bit silly; I mean, Alex is going to be playing for another 9 years, right?
About it being at least a little about the money – well it was – if not the amount, then the terms of payment. He did have bonuses in prior years – I suppose it’s all in the packaging – you know, like how with food presentation is everything?
randy l -
It is apparent that Torre is kind of caught between two eras, if you will. Or as you have said, old school versus new school. When Cash got more autonomy, he was able to start instituting a more statistical way of putting things together (as the Red Sox have, according to Verducci, done and been successful with), and this was a departure from a prior way of doing things. As GM, this is his job – to take the team in a forward direction, to see the trends, maybe even to set new trends. Anyway, there’s room for both – and there needs to be room for both, because Joe is right when he said the game has a heartbeat. It’s just hard to make adjustments mid-course. That’s why Cashman needed a new manager, someone more on the same page as he is at this point in time and there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong, is when people are not frank with each other, and I suspect the long relationship they had made it difficult for either one to really ask the tough questions of each other.
Anyway, I’m more of a middle-of-the-road gal. Sometimes it’s not good – you get torn between two sides when you try to see each viewpoint with at least a nod toward impartiality.
Real World: you don’t have Mark Melancon in the bullpen mix. He’s the reason the Yankees will pass on Cruz and why they can laugh at people who claim they’re back-end BP needs Joba in setup role to be lights out.
He’ll either win a spot outright or be brought up slightly later – but he will be brought up. He has the best combination of stuff/command/intelligence/guts of any reliever in the organization not named Mo Rivera. He’s light years better than anyone else as the whole package.
Sign Juan Cruz. Make the bullpen that much stronger so the Yanks don’t have to rely on Rivera, Veras, and Bruney as much. We have a decent bullpen already, but signing Juan Cruz would be great for the bullpen and probably wouldn’t cost to much.
As for the bench, we already have Swisher probably as first option so we really don’t need much more bench support.
And Buster Onley gave an idea which i agree with 100%. Get rid of Nady and Matsui through trade and resign Bobby Abreu. Slide Bobby into the #5 spot in the lineup, 3 guaranteed guys with 100RBIs in a row. Put Swisher in left and Gardner in center
RayVTNC – we can agree to disagree about whether the money was the issue for Torre. Your last line (None of this walking plank every day wondering if this is the day you meet the sharks)I think was the case when George was George. He was constantly coming out with statements, threatening jobs and interfering, calling the clubhouse and changing his mind.
“Anyway, I’m more of a middle-of-the-road gal. Sometimes it’s not good – you get torn between two sides when you try to see each viewpoint with at least a nod toward impartiality.”
doreen-
i think you just have had enough life experience to see both sides of an issue and a few shades of grey when things aren’t so obvious. as long as the extremes don’t attack, you should be ok. if they do , duck.
this torre book is a lighting rod for opinions and that’s not necessarily such a bad thing.
books are supposed to make us think after all.
randy l -
Long enough to know that good people sometimes make poor judgments and bad people sometimes make good judgments.
Espresso
January 31st, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Andrew Jones didn’t forget how to hit in a year. He fell off a freaking cliff. There is more than 1 year of statistics to back this up. He was done when the Dodgers signed him. I was astounded he got more than a minor league contract last time.
I was hoping to see something out of him, he’s been fun to watch, but Gardner is a better hitter now. I would be fine with a ST invite, but I doubt he would win out over Melky and Gardner, who are both young and athletic.
As to Matsui for Washnurn, then signing Dunn: Getting Washburn was a bad idea last year, it still is. Dunn hasn’t shown he can be a better DH than Matsui. He clearly has more power, but the strikeouts are big deal. Giambi part 2 anyone? It also appears that some players don’t handle sitting between innings well. Matsui has shown that he can stay in rhythm offensively without playing defense. That’s worth a few home runs. This all assumes that Mastui is healthy of course.
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I second the emphatic “no” on Jones. Yankee Stadium for Jones in his prime would have been a playpen. Now, it’s the middle of the ocean at high tide. Old outfielders + center field = major risk.
Dunn doesn’t make enough contact to make sense.
Rob from NJ
January 31st, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Sign Juan Cruz. Make the bullpen that much stronger so the Yanks don’t have to rely on Rivera, Veras, and Bruney as much. We have a decent bullpen already, but signing Juan Cruz would be great for the bullpen and probably wouldn’t cost to much.
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Rob, signing Cruz makes no sense. A strength last season, the bullpen is adding a stud in 2009 to make it even deeper – but that reliever is coming from within. We don’t need to spend a dime on Cruz.
Melancon has 3 plus pitches, all of which he can throw for strikes. He doesn’t walk anyone. He’s the guy.
The best case for the Yanks is that Gardner wins the CF job and shows this year that he can be a full time MLB player. We will lose Damon next year and have no real leadoff hitter is Gardner doesn’t succeed. Finding a true leadoff hitter is one of the toughest things to do through FA/trades. I would love to see Gardner get on base @.360-.370, play great defense, and be a secondary leadoff hitter as the number 9 man. That would give a much better start when the lineup turns over than a slower and K-prone pseudo power hitter in the 9 slot.
Then, for 2010, Gardner in left leading off, Ajax in center batting 8th or 9th. A lot of ifs in there, but that would be the best case scenario, IMO.
randy l: If I can interrupt the Torre reverie for a moment:
Great, thoughtful post the other day on wariness of trying to turn Cano into an OBP guy. I read it so after the fact I can’t find it, unfortunately. But I wholeheartedly agree about the sort of low percentage “bad ball” territory that Cano, in his good years, not only can get to but drive, ala Vlad. We don’t want him deprived of his aggressiveness and stripped of an unconventionality that can turn into production.
You had responded, initially, to a post of mine in favor of signing Manny to help mentor Cano. I hope Long understands those points, because Cano is sort of an anomaly.
randy and pat m
What I said to you last night was meant to be constructive and not derisive. I didn’t mean to start a pc or gender war.
You can offer a perspective others can’t because of your experiences and growing up in a very sports centric family that includes NCAA players and professional coaches, I do understand the un-PC nature of sports- although “sqwat” was a new one for me especially with that spelling and many of the phrases I heard attending practices in my formative years didn’t really make sense until I got older.
As for you Ms. Doreen. You can be on my team anyday. You understand the reasoned approach and know how to have a girls back!
There is a new photo gallery for Yankee Stadium on the Yankee page on MLB.com. It’s looking great, but time’s running out. I didn’t realize that there is a manual scoreboard in rightfield. Very cool!
Wigginton hit 285 350 526 with 23 homers last year in 386 at bats. NO way does he accept a bench role on the yanks next year with those numbers. Nomar and Aurilia – maybe. Edmonds would definitely be of some help in a cheap one year deal if he cant get anything better.
I am shocked that guys like manny, dunn, cabrera, hudson, abreu, sheets, etc. are still on the free agent market when we are already into february and spring training is around the corner. I thought fringe players would suffer in this economy but not guys like manny and dunn. Its unfortunate we cannot trade matsui and replace him with one of those two at the dh position but that is life. Plus, manny would likely bring us well above last years payroll anyway which i DONT think the organization would consider doing. Would Manny added to our lineup almost guarantee us as favorites for the world series? Yes but i DONT think we would need him to win.
The only problem with our offense however is that I am having trouble believing that posada and matsui will both have healthy seasons while swisher and cano have comeback player of the year-type seasons. It just is not realistic to think that all four of them will revert back to form. We lose one of them, we are not in any sort of trouble. We lose two and we will likely need to add another bat to the lineup with gardner or melky in the order. I think at least two of the four will have comeback seasons.
I love Melancon. I didn’t include him cuz he’s never thrown a pitch in the majors, has had some health issues, and isn’t likely to be a name the Yanks will consider out of the gate. Sanchez is another arm I’m very curious about, but until he proves he can stay healthy, and produce, I can’t take him seriously. The guys I named, I did so cuz I feel I can say with certainty that they can be relied upon this season. Melancon should be a guy in the pen at some point though. I just wouldn’t expect him to be a contributor. Think of Kennedy and hughes last year. Some youngsters need time. Heck, even Robertson, who was amazing at every level in the minors, struggled at times last year. If you want to compete for the playoffs, and a WS, you can’t rely on too many guys like that. They’re production, or success, is to unpredictable.
I want to add that having 3 more proven commodities like a Cruz, Mo, and Marte, makes the transition for the younger relievers easier. It eases the burden on them. I do love our bullpen arms though. The Yankees are building a bullpen much like the Twins. The Twins constantly have good, young, power arms coming up from the farm to replenish the ranks.
Why would anyone want Andruw Jones? The guy fell so far in one year, it reminded me of Giambi when he was cycling off roids.
What is so bad about trying Melky/Gardner in CF? yeah, it’s not a star player but it is one hole, where most teams have 3, 4 o 5 holes in their starting 8. Jeez, stop being so greedy.
What did I miss? Haven’t read last night’s stuff, but maybe it’s better I don’t.
randy l,
Am I misinterpreting what you said? That the “code” only applies to guys who aren’t buttheads?
First off, how is Phil Pavano Hughes doing these days? Second, great job by Torre, what a class act. A Fraud is a Fraud making $32 mill this year for nothing. He is Mr April and should bat 7th or later in the line up, then he may bat .200 w/RISP this season. Good job Torre, thanks for the 4 rings!!!
Bruney signed, YOU KIDDING ME? The only players who get injured more are of course Phil Pavano Hughes, Mr “can’t run the bases Wang”, Mr. I “throw 10 feet” Damon, and “My knee, my knee” Matsui. Honorable mention is Posada and MO. This team already in disaray
I like the idea of signing Cruz too. Not sold on Bruney and as the old adage goes “you can never have enough pitching”.
Could be quite a steal as the Yankees have a competitive advantage with signing another Type A.
Real world,
Melancon pitched in all three levels last year shutting down the opponents. He may not be considered right out of spring but he will most certainly be up in early 2009 barring unforeseen injury. yOU CAN take that to the bank. And the only reason he would not be up out of ST is if he does not perform well there or because we have a large pile of arms to take into consideration and melancon is one of the youngest and least experienced of the group.
He will definitely be called up before sanchez who’s value has greatly diminished since the sheff trade when he was widely considered a front end of the rotation starter. He may still have the good but after that many injuries as he has said at his age, I would stay cautious with that kid and make sure he can stay healthy above anything else.
To me, the yanks interest in juan cruz should have nothing to do with the pile of arms they have and everything to do with his asking price. Lets say you have 20 boxes of your favorite brand of cereal that you eat for breakfast every single deal but you see a ridiculous sale at costco where you can get more. You know eventually you will eat all that cereal anyway so why not take a bargain while its there for the taking?
That is exactly how i feel about cruz – he is a type A free agent reliever (not even closer material really) in a terrible market with guys like manny and dunn still on the block. If he is desperate for a job and will take one year and 2 mil, why not?? You can never, ever have too many arms out of the pen. The argument that we already have enough bullpen talent is a weak and flimsy one as there is no such thing just like you can never have enough of your favorite brand of cereal.
From the Torre book:
“Back in 2004, at first Rodriguez did his best to try and fit into the Yankee culture — his cloying, B Grade actor best” “He slathered on the polish. People in the clubhouse, including teammates and support personnel were *calling him ‘A-Fraud’ behind his back.”*
From the King interview:
TORRE: …after he had a — maybe a bad night or had made an error — an error.
And he says who is it today, is it A-Rod or A-Fraud, you know?
And it was right there in front of him. *It wasn’t like anything was said behind his back*.
hmmm…. which one is it?
anyone have a scouting report on melancon
I understand the idea of being cautious, but Melancon is a major exception.
They were cautious last year, when his progress was so meteoric (and also had been predicted), they were tempted to bring him up end of 2008.
Melancon got through the year without any setbacks from TJ, which was his big test. He passed with flying colors. They couldn’t even get the kid enough innings, because he was so efficient.
Thus his 3-inning stints that had people thinking he was being bred as a long reliever and even a starter, lol. They were just trying to build his pitch count. He ripped through A, AA, AAA in one year of pro ball, his first ever. He’s more than ready; he’s over ripe, and would be wasting his time at Scranton.
In the case of Hughes, he needed another pitch, making him predictable. Melancon has a FB/curve combo he could have lived off out of the pen, but he added a change-up and turned it into a plus pitch.
Real world,
I was not really disagreeing with you but more trying to enhance your points as best i could. I realized after reading my post that it came off sounding a little like i did not agree but I thought your post was dead on.
when i was a kid in the old stadium they had a scoreboard on the RF wall. im pretty sure it was electric in the 0’s though but the manual one in the new stadium looks alot like it.
you can see it in this shot but i cant find a better pic of it.
http://imagecache2.allposters......osters.jpg
Sure, he throws 3 plus pitches. 2-seamer, hammer curve and a change-up. Also has 4-seamer that he can amp to 96 or so.
If you read that he’s too much of a contact pitcher, don’t believe it. He can K guys with each of those pitches. He’s around the strike zone a lot, but his stuff is nasty.
sorry the 60’s not the 0’s
bodhisattva
January 31st, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Cabrera is my choice for center field as well. He will have to win the spot in ST, however, and I believe he will.
How do we know that Girardi didn’t explain Cabrera’s demotion to him? Was that stated somewhere? For instance, we know Joe G was communicating with Cano during his struggles.
Torre actually blew it when it came to Cabrera – replacing him in 2006 postseason when it was clear what a positive impact he’d had on the regular-season, in terms of upgrading significantly the outfield defense, contributing tough at-bats at the plate, and generally raising the youth and enthusiasm quotient referenced so many times by guys like ARod and Jeter. Even Torre admitted in hindsight he’d made a blunder.
———————————————————————
Joe G always went to his office, slammed the door & sulked every time the Yankees lost. He is very immature. He had the same issues with the Marlins and that owner fired him. Joe G has great potential and I’m sure is a likeable guy, but he is all about Joe G.
At the end of last year, Joe G talked with Cano chewed him out and yet assured him he was his 2nd baseman. But it took almost all year. If he had done that in May or June, Cano could have had a much better year.
Young players go thru this all the time. The phrase Soph jinx came about because of this kind of worrysome display. Melky, I’m sure was hurt by Torre’s replacing him, but Torre explained in detail why he did it directly to Melky. Did Torre make a mistake, probably. If Melky had played & screwed up, the other side of the coined could have been played as well.
Joe G left Melky dangling too even though Melky had a very good 1st half. Do you remember the 1st halves Bernie had under Torre? They were awful. Torre rode it out & worked with Bernie. Melky was doghoused & I remember reading that Joe G wouldn’t even talk with him. Melky was sent down to AAA & never came back up.
what about orlando cabrera for CF?
bodhisattva,
I agree – not setbacks from TJ surgery in 2008 combined with significant innings at each level and significant IMPROVEMENT at each level = He is ready to make the leap to the majors. He may not make it out of ST but he will certainly be in the bronx no later than midseason.
I heard Hughes is trying to develop that cutter as a third pitch. I wonder who could teach him how to throw a great cutter thats currently in the organization? hmmm…..
Fran
January 31st, 2009 at 1:36 pm
RayVTNC – we can agree to disagree about whether the money was the issue for Torre. Your last line (None of this walking plank every day wondering if this is the day you meet the sharks)I think was the case when George was George. He was constantly coming out with statements, threatening jobs and interfering, calling the clubhouse and changing his mind.
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I agree we all have opinions & are free to disagree!
George used to make people jump and he would fire them if he thought it best for the Yankees. Torre & George had disagreements but they respected each other. Billy Martin, who was rarely sober, would be out of his mind and wildly angry talking to George. George was very protective of Billy and would fire him when the wagon was about to tilt too much. George was passionate about winning, but very reasonable as well although sometimes it appeared differently. Dick Howser was a Yankee & an arch enemy Manager for the Royals who died of cancer. He was close to broke when he died, and George stepped in and paid off his debts, including his home and donated a large sum of money to make sure Mrs Howser and her family were well taken care of. George liked to be shocking, but he was kindhearted. He would intimidate too, but only weak people reacted to it. It was kind of his measuring stick. Stump Merril & Buck failed the measuring stick, so Joe Torre had his opening. George hated weakness! But he gave people a chance to succeed. (Mostly! LOL!)
^^^^Never heard that myself, but if true, that’s discouraging.
We had major issues in 2006 postseason other than sitting Melky down – we had no starting pitching and our lineup was down 3-0, 4-0, in every game, except the opener, before they could blink – but I was against him sitting Melky right away, knew it was a mistake because the outfield defense was so inferior.
Joe doesn’t give young players much rope – and Melky had earned starting. He also didn’t seem to understand how much the outfield would suffer subtracting Melky from it, so that’s on him.
Another instance of impatience with a youngster comes to mind. He gave E-Ram a token chance and when the kid imploded, he sat him for 3 weeks, setting him up for failure.
RayVTNC
“Melky was doghoused & I remember reading that Joe G wouldn’t even talk with him. Melky was sent down to AAA & never came back up.”
8-15-08 Optioned OF Melky Cabrera to Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre.
9-4-08 Recalled OF Melky Cabrera from Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre.
RayVTNC
January 31st, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Joe G always went to his office, slammed the door & sulked every time the Yankees lost. He is very immature. He had the same issues with the Marlins and that owner fired him. Joe G has great potential and I’m sure is a likeable guy, but he is all about Joe G.
At the end of last year, Joe G talked with Cano chewed him out and yet assured him he was his 2nd baseman. But it took almost all year. If he had done that in May or June, Cano could have had a much better year.
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You’re aware that Cano hit .297 from 1 May through the end of the year, right? That included a stretch in Mid August to early September that he slumped because of a bone bruise at the base of his left thumb. It was the month of April that hurt his year.
How about his defense? He made some sloppy, uninspired plays, but, he was also a damned good defensive 2nd baseman. Everybody gushes and drools about Utley’s defense. Take a look..their defensive numbers are nearly identical.
I like Melky for CF. I believe Gardner would be very capable for this lineup the Yankees have. If we had to sign one person to play CF out of everyone who is still a FA, I would sign Orlando Hudson and play him in CF. No I would not move Cano or trade him. But, I believe much like in earlier years of Gerald & Bernie Williams, one of them is probably the answer.
Ray,
Melky was brought back up in september. I dont know what you are talking about. And melky absolutely vanished in the lineup last season – he was practically an automatic out. What should a manager do? Wait all season for him to come around with posada and matsui out for significant time. Yea right. … And please dont tell me melky did have enough of a chance – he had about 1400 at bats over 3 seasons to prove his worth – he declined each season. yOU can make an argument against girardi but not that he didnt give melky enough time in the majors – and why shouldn’t gardner who has only 120 at bats in the major leagues get a chance. Gardner is more patient than melky across his career with some of the best speed in the whole organization. Gardner and melky are certainly comparable defensively and I have heard arguments in support of both of them.
dave
January 31st, 2009 at 2:27 pm
bodhisattva,
I agree – not setbacks from TJ surgery in 2008 combined with significant innings at each level and significant IMPROVEMENT at each level = He is ready to make the leap to the majors. He may not make it out of ST but he will certainly be in the bronx no later than midseason.
I heard Hughes is trying to develop that cutter as a third pitch. I wonder who could teach him how to throw a great cutter thats currently in the organization? hmmm…..
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Hmmmm….I give up. Yeah, he’s working on cutter and change-up and will benefit from lead time in Scranton to perfect both until someone hits DL, then he can come up better armed.
The thing about Rivera is, guys say they can’t replicate it, even though he’s a great teacher.
What I love about MM is he’s effective vs. righties and lefties – just what you want from a setup guy.
Ehh..wouldn’t get carried away with trend-downs when it’s such a young player. MC will spend most of 2009 as a 24 year old.
Cabrera filled out and discovered some power in his bat, and wandered off the path. Give him a chance to put together a more efficient swing and the new power, which he was able to do in Winter League ball. Let’s see if he can sustain it.
GreenBeret7
No I was not GreenBeret7 aware Cano hit .295 in May until now. I remember watching him struggle well into June at the plate, but perhaps it was my perception only. Thanks for the correction. BTW, I have been a long time supporter of Cano at 2B for the Yankees!!
Melky had a sophomore jinx? Then, what do you call last year? a junior jinx??? Come on! One year in decline – ok, fine even for a player of seemingly marginal talent like melky seems to portray. I can even see giving a player two years of decline but three consecutive years of decline and people think he should get the job out of ST? What kind of message is that sending a player like robbie? yOU can decline for the next two seasons and still have your job locked up?
This is a bit more about melancon but it is from 2008:
The scouting report on Melancon is above-average fastball with command (though his control was sketchy yesterday), a power curve that some in the organization equate as an out pitch to Chamberlain’s slider and, as Nick Green, who hit against him in the BP session, said an ability to hide the ball in his delivery. However, what every Yankees official cites as Melancon’s greatest asset is a serious, professional, determined makeup.
“This guy wants to compete and will not get rattled,” minor league pitching coordinator Nardi Contreras said.
thanks, first thing that come to mind was contact pitcher
How bad does melky have to play in order to give gardner a legit chance to succeed in the majors?? Apparently, three consecutive seasons in which all of his stats dropped off a cliff is not enough for some people to say that gardner deserves a shot at the job. Yea, he was good in winter ball but how much more difficult is that then, succeeding in triple A?
bodhisattva
Rob, signing Cruz makes no sense. A strength last season, the bullpen is adding a stud in 2009 to make it even deeper – but that reliever is coming from within. We don’t need to spend a dime on Cruz.
Melancon has 3 plus pitches, all of which he can throw for strikes. He doesn’t walk anyone. He’s the guy.
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Well as good as Melancon might be, why not sign Juan Cruz? Look at the Red Sox, did they really need another reliever? No, but they signed Saito to add even more strength. And what happened to the phrase “there’s never enough pitching”? Since he’s a Class-A free agent, the Yankees would have to give up a 4th round pick but i still don’t see why they Yankees don’t sign him. Make our bullpen even better.
DT
Please don’t let the facts get in the way of my logic!! LOL! Thanks for the correction. Melky was benched after his Aug 13th game going 0-2. Melky did come back to the Yankees & played his first game as a defensive replacement on Sept 13th against the Rays. He got his 1st AB after coming back on 17th of Sept. He had a total of 13 AB in Sept getting 6 hits with 3 of them on the last game he played on the 28th.
Melky had just 3 AB from Aug 13th till Sept 25th. He didn’t play until the Yanks were totally out of it. That sounds like a doghouse to me.
Heres a detailed report about melancon’s pitches:
His pitching arsenal:
Fastball: sat at mostly 93-94 mph throughout the outing and topped out at 95 mph.. He threw a more sinking heater at 91 down in the zone. His arm slot is nearly over the top (or basically high three-quarters) making the 94 mph fastball drive downward on hitters and probably seem even faster than it already is. A plus fastball in terms of velocity, movement and command.
The lateral movement it generates, however, may be the most impressive characteristic to the pitch. Melancon is able to command the fastball well inside, though he did leave a few pitches out over the plate, a single and RBI double coming as a result. The majority of the time Melancon’s heater bent in and out of the zone as he attacked hitters with a 7-1 lead.
Curveball: The epitome of an outpitch, Melancon possesses an absolute hammer power curveball hovering around 80-81 mph. He showed the ability to drop the pitch in for a called strike as well as bury it in the dirt for swinging strikes. Potentially a plus-plus pitch, Melancon throws it with great conviction and bite.
From my vantage point behind homeplate, the ball just seemed to be on a continuous downward spiral. This comes in part because of Melancon’s high release point. Following his fastball, the curve has great depth and simply drops off the table, somewhat like Francisco Rodriguez’s big breaking ball. Two of his four strikeouts came on the pitch.
Changeup: An average major league offering, Melancon’s change sits in the low 80s. I believe Melancon only threw the pitch twice during his two frames and while it seemed he commanded it well enough to throw it for strikes, the movement and deception was not particularly exceptional. The simple fact of the matter is that Melancon does not need a third pitch to succeed at the major league level. His fastball and curve are that strong.
He sort of resists definition. It’s strange to say, but he kinda becomes the pitcher he needs to be to get a guy out. I’ve been fortunate enough to have seen him quite a bit live.
He’s not a big swing-and-miss guy, but his curve is definitely good for Ks. Sinker encourages contact, but it’s impotent – your fielders need to stay alert. He also gets strikeouts with that pitch. He’s pretty unique. Smart, focused, fearless.
This is the link with a video of him:
http://bronx-bomberz.blogspot......beast.html
^^^
MM works in his change a lot more now and gets Ks on it. It’s now a very good pitch. Defnitely the lateral mvmnt on sinker is the key. Really jams RH batters, while lefties get barely any of it or can’t find it altogether. Soon everyone can see for themselves.
dave
January 31st, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Melky had a sophomore jinx? Then, what do you call last year? a junior jinx??? Come on! One year in decline – ok, fine even for a player of seemingly marginal talent like melky seems to portray. I can even see giving a player two years of decline but three consecutive years of decline and people think he should get the job out of ST? What kind of message is that sending a player like robbie? yOU can decline for the next two seasons and still have your job locked up?
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The term Soph Jinx is a relative term to someone new in the league having a setback early in their careers. It usually occurs in the 2nd full season, but Melky had his as a 3rd yr pro. I would not say that Melky declined from 2006 to 2007, as they are statistically very close. Also, Melky’s defense in 2007 was even better than 2006.
Melky had a good April .299, July .272 & Sept .462.
Although he hit .272 in July and in 10 out of the last 15 games he was basically benched after 3 games in August. Melky has lots of potential. We’ve seen flashes of it.
thanks bodhisattva and dave i learn alot about him
dave
January 31st, 2009 at 3:08 pm
This is the link with a video of him:
http://bronx-bomberz.blogspot......beast.html
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Thanks, that’s pretty cool. What it doesn’t really show is how far back his elbow goes before he brings the arm over the top. When I saw that live, it made me really nervous. And because he does that, it almost seems like there’s a milisecond of pause, but really it’s just the now you see it now you don’t when he brings the arm back.
When he comes sort of long over the top, the ball rushes in on the hitter with great late life. That’s the long and short of it, so to speak, lol.
I think we’ll see Melancon up soon.
teddy
January 31st, 2009 at 3:17 pm
thanks bodhisattva and dave i learn alot about him
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Welcome. Pretty soon you’ll see him for yourself. I always reserve judgment on players until I give them the eyeball test, lol.
dave
Melancon is very good! SWB Blog has been saying that for a while.
Mark Melancon, rhp SWB Blog would probably have ranked Melancon seventh, but if you want to put in the same category as Brackman, Betances, Romine and McAllister that’s fine by me. It was honestly fun to watch him work his way through Triple-A hitters. He’s just so damn aggressive, and he keeps that attitude on the mound without having that attitude in the clubhouse. The guy is soft-spoken and, by all accounts, an incredibly hard worker. When the season ended and he was talking about keeping up with his rehab, that impressed me. He doesn’t seem to take anything for granted. Add me to the list of those who were very impressed with Melancon as a pitcher and as a person. Get excited about this one.
RayVTNC
January 31st, 2009 at 3:17 pm
—————————————————————————————————The term Soph Jinx is a relative term to someone new in the league having a setback early in their careers. It usually occurs in the 2nd full season, but Melky had his as a 3rd yr pro. I would not say that Melky declined from 2006 to 2007, as they are statistically very close. Also, Melky’s defense in 2007 was even better than 2006.
Melky had a good April .299, July .272 & Sept .462.
Although he hit .272 in July and in 10 out of the last 15 games he was basically benched after 3 games in August. Melky has lots of potential. We’ve seen flashes of it.
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Melky’s defense is vastly underrated, but I’ve said this too many times to want to re-invest. I think there’s some talent in his bat, too, though how much is something to be learned. As a defender, he is awfully good.
bodhisattva
I agree!!
Ray,
I agree with you about Melancon – I think he could end up being a special player out of the pen. The only thing that confuses me or concerns me maybe is that I have heard many a time that his talents shouldn’t be wasted in the closer role. This was later explained as either the closer role should not exist at all and he should only pitch in any high leverage situations or that he has the ability to pitch a ton of innings and he would be best suited as a setup guy/bridge that could take the seventh and eighth type. i guess the comparison would be scot shields in his prime type guy.
i CANT agree with you about melky however – 1400 at bats is more than enough of a chance to prove your worth. I am not saying he is finished as a prospect but I am saying someone else like gardner should get a shot out of ST. By all minor league accounts, gardner is a much more patient hitter but takes a while to adjust to each new level. The yanks have given him zero chance to adjust in only 120 at bats total. Plus, Gardner has tremendous speed that brings an elite talent to the table that melky just doesn’t have. I think Gardner’s speed makes up for Melky’s reads/range with Melky having the slight defensive edge but offense out of center if important especially if posada or matsui go down with injury again.
Melky in 2006: 280 360 391 in 460 at bats 12 for 17 in SBs and 7 HRs
Melky in 2007: 273 327 391 in 545 at bats 13 for 18 in SBs and 8 HRs
Melky in 2008: 249 301 341 in 414 at bats 9 for 11 in SBs and 8 HRs
Not only did he show no signs of improvement over 3 seasons but consistently regressed particularly in patience at the plate with his obp going from 360 to 327 to 301. His ops plus also declined each season and that is a little less than 3 full seasons in the big. Unless he has a huge spring, I dont think the yanks should start him in center once again. This time he should have to earn it in AAA while they give gardner a shot.
“Melky was benched after his Aug 13th game going 0-2.”
That 0-2 concluded a 3-27 stretch in which he scored one run and drove in one run. From 6/14 thru 8/13 he hit .221 with a .555 OPS. He stunk. He’s a good outfielder. Not exceptional, but well above average. To me, everything about him screams 4th OF. Very good glove but somewhere between a below average and way below average bat at the MLB level.
Dave,
The Yankees have kept a close eye on Cabrera’s Winter League play. What they saw, and what I saw, was improved plate discipline and a return to a compact, more level swing.
Gardner certainly will get a chance – the manager likes him, which should count. I’m going to predict Melky wins the starting job, however, and Gardner fills an important role coming off the bench.
Running out the door. Nice chatting with you folks.
“I think we’ll see Melancon up soon.”
Hope so. He has only 100 professional innings, so they may give him some time in Scranton, but a hard throwing guy who pounds the strike zone is a good thing to have around.
“I think we’ll see Melancon up soon.”
I think the key for Melancon is how well our 7-8 inning guys work out for us. If one of Veras/Ramirez/Marte cannot provide a bridge to Mo, Melancon will be a name uttered early and often by Yankee fans.
BUT, if one of those guys, or someone else for that matter already in the BP, emerges as a reliable 8th inning guy, I think the Yankee org. would be comfortable having MM spend his year in AAA. The guy has 100 pro. innings and articles are being printed about the next Mo.
MM rise to the majors would be better off if taken with as much caution as Joba, except we know where this guy belongs (not that we don’t with Joba, but some people are just idiots). He is a superior pitching talent with two well above average out pitches and developing a tough third.
I am not say Melky is the next Bernie, but what I am saying is that if you remember Bernie stunk a few years at the start of the season but Joe played him thru it. Melky hit a wall & for whatever reason he fell apart. When a youngster starts going thru a slump they usually over react and fall apart. Melky looked lost most of last year at the plate. His swing, pitch selection, confidence and demeanor all changed.
Hopefully, he has adjusted because I think he is a better OF than Gardner. Yes I like Gardners speed. But he doesn’t ever bunt, so I assume he doesn’t know how. Seems strange to have 80 speed on a 20 to 80 scale and be lefthanded yet not use that skill bunting.
^^And to add, this not being as big a factor is decision making, but I always like the idea of not giving opposing teams a lot of looks at a pitcher. The mystery of a pitcher also comes with a lack of comfortability and experience. This mystery leads to a more effective pitcher, particularly out of the BP.
I mean of course, the yanks have the option of taking both of them up out of spring but one of them will start and one of them will not. The one that wont may suffer by not having consistent playing time. Im glad that the coaches like gardner and even if he can put up an obp of around 350 over the course of a season, he will be a major league talent due to his 40 stolen based potential with that obp in over 500 at bats. This could be his line:
270 340 360 with 40 stolen bases
and it would not be all that far-fetched considering his vast improvement in his second year at each level. That is fantastic production out of the ninth hole in the lineup – i love having speed at that position as well and enjoy gardner then damon in the batting order. I dont think the winter league is all that much more difficult than AAA. Doing well in the winter league should not earn someone another promotion to the majors IMO. I NEED to see that kind of production and plate discipline out of spring training. I think no matter what, gardner will put up a far superior OBP to melky over the course of 500 at bats and with the speed, that is what i like him in center over melky. Plus, he has not been given a chance to prove anything while melky has as I have said.
I believe Melky has gone through what a player needs to go through to turn around his career. NOW, will Melky turn it around is still to be seen. BUT, if he doesn’t become a more offensive force, given the opportunities given to him, we will have no choice but to label him the 4th OF/defensive replacement he is and give Gardner a serious shot at CF.
The way I see it, this org. is spending too much money to flip/flop two CF prospects in the wake of a groundbreaking turn around offseason for the Yankees and mounting pressure to return/have success in the playoffs. If either of these guys cannot hack it in the situations they are put in, we need to find ourselves a serious CFer.
The only way I see Melancon not making the team out of ST is if he gets bombed. Otherwise I think he makes it. But I don’t think he will be thrown into the 8th inning right away. He’ll start out as a 6th or 7th inning guy.
Joey,
If we treated melancon like joba, he would be in the majors early this season. He already rose through all three ranks of the minor leagues last year with flying colors. Keep melancon in AAA for an entire season would be a waste of his talents IMO. Look at his numbers in AAA last year. He does not have much more to prove in scranton. He does not have to be up out of ST but he should be up no later than the all star break. Otherwise, it is a waste – why not help out the major league club when he can? Further, someone in the yankee pen will struggle or get hurt at some point next season and MM will be one of the first ones up. It is bound to happen at some point. We dont need marte or veras to struggle to bring him up as melancon could essentially replace anyone in the pen.
I don’t think Melancon makes it out of Spring Training they have enough solid guys to give Melancon some extra time in AAA. Lets not wreck things by rushing him.
Don’t forget this guy:
http://www.thebaseballcube.com.....tson.shtml
How hard could it be for gardner to learn how to bunt? It makes one wonder just exactly how strong the yankee farm system is at teaching some of the basics when a guy like gardner does not bunt.
Joey,
The only problem is we cant really add a serious CF midseason. One, it would cost us too many good prospects. Two, i DONT really see any solid CF on the trade block midseason and three, ajax is rising the ranks and taking on a quality CF may mean a longer-term deal than we should take on. Just a thought…
Mo Marte Coke Vares Edwar Bruney Aceves
OR
Mo Marte Coke Melancon Robertson Bruney Aceves
I take the latter.
“I am not say Melky is the next Bernie, but what I am saying is that if you remember Bernie stunk a few years at the start of the season but Joe played him thru it.”
1)He’s definitely not the next Bernie
2)Bernie did not regress from year to year early in his career the way Cabrera did.
3)Joe didn’t play Bernie thru anything. Bernie was playing at or near an allstar level by the time Joe had the gig.
Dave, that’s what Randy I, and myself as well have been questioning…Where have all the coaches gone ? This very same point was just mentioned a few days ago…..Randy point of concern was illustarted when he compared the Yankss instructional prcatices to that of The Minn. Twins..I threw in the Angels as well……Stockpiling talent is wonderful, however without the instructors it’s in vain……How can Gardner get to the bigs and cannot lay down a bunt for crap…..
I agree Melancon is almost certainly headed to The Bronx to be a middle man. Bruney and Marte and perhaps Veras will get 8th inning duty with Melancon and another guy in earlier roles. I wonder what they’ll do with Joba since he won’t start until game nine.
With the investments in starting pitching I’m thinking the Yanks may go with 11 pitchers instead of 12. If so Aceves, Giese, Robertson, Albaladejo. Ramirez and perhaps Coke are battling for one job — two at the most.
Nice to have some depth for a change
Was Joba rushed? If he was, he did not show it. Melancon even coming up out of ST is not really rushing him as he would pretty much be on the same pace as joba. He is ready. He has dominated in all three levels. I dont think bringing him up in April would be rushing him but if he needs more time, we could afford to give it to him. Personally, I think it may be a waste of his talents to leave him in AAA for any longer than half the season unless he regresses or gets hurt.
People who say “having said that” after they just said it are morons.
But having said that, Go Yanks ‘09.
“Was Joba rushed? ”
has he pitched uninjured?
will he pitch this year uninjured?
those are the questions to answer to answer your question.
Guessing where these players will end up:
1B: Adam Dunn-Nationals
2B: Orlando Hudson-Nationals
SS: Orlando Cabrera-A’s
3B: Ty Wigginton-Twins
LF: Manny Ramirez-Dodgers
CF: Ken Griffey Jr.-retired
RF: Bobby Abreu-Mariners
C: Pudge Rodriguez-home
DH: Frank Thomas-retired
SP: Ben Sheets-Rangers
SP: Oliver Perez-Mets
SP: Tom Glavine-Braves or retired
SP: Randy Wolf-Dodgers
SP: Braden Looper-Orioles
RP: Juan Cruz-wish Yankees but Cardinals
RP: Eric Gagne-home
Chase Wright for Rich Hill, would be a nice pickup if you believe Hill can make the team.
Comparing melky to bernie is ludicrous. Are you trying to re-write history?
Pat – I agree. How can the farm coaches not teach gardner of all people some of the fundamentals?? The only coach I ever really heard about from the minor leagues on a consistent basis is nardi. Everyone else are only discussed when they get a job in the minors or leave a job in the minors. You dont hear much about them in between and Nardi has nothing to do with the position players.
Edwar improved last year so there is no reason to send him down. I would just send the first group up to the bronx and then, bring melancon up to replace the first injury or ineffectiveness. It will keep the pen on their toes because they will constantly be facing the idea of being sent back down – a little competition for the pen is nice for a change.
“Was Joba rushed? ”
has he pitched uninjured?
will he pitch this year uninjured?
those are the questions to answer to answer your question.”
Can you prove it?
Ask your same questions about Chien-ming Wang.
Was Wang rushed?
Those questions are legitimate to ask about Joba, but they in no way prove that he was rushed. How can you prove that his shoulder tendonitis was a result of being rushed?
The theory that Joba could have used more innings in the minors is legitimate. But it’s just a theory. It’s not a fact.
Has Joba’s performance on the mound suggested that he needed more time in the minors?
Melechon will need to display control, the ability to get ahead in the count, and pitch when inheriting runners on base….He’s staying in AAA, I think ……He needs alot more seasoning
What purpose would Rich Hill have on the team. If the sentence starts with Joba and ends in bullpen then no.
It’s hard to predict whether Melancon makes the team out of Spring Training but there’s little doubt he’ll be in the Yankee pen before June.
Melancon doesn’t need an entire season in Scranton.
BTW, that scouting report above was done back in May of 2008. He has since improved his change significantly and primarily worked in improving that pitch over the last couple months of the season.
Here’s a more recent scouting report on Melancon, which was released this past week.
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Performance aside, the fact he [Melancon] pitched throughout the entire 2008 season and without further injury or soreness is quite remarkable, and as a result he turned supporters inside of the organization into diehard fans.
“We really liked him out of the draft,” Yankees senior vice president of baseball operations Mark Newman said. “We knew it was going to be a year of rehab. There are no more diligent rehabbers than Mark Melancon. He’s as good as anybody we’ve ever had here.
“Melancon went right into the Florida State League this year, then the Eastern League and then International League. That’s more than we could have hoped for. I expected A-ball and Double-A. I didn’t expect Triple-A.”
Surpassing expectations, Melancon posted a combined 8-2 record and 2.27 ERA over three minor league levels and advanced all the way to Triple-A in what was essentially his first full professional season.
“Melancon had a tremendous year, his first full year coming off of Tommy John surgery and also his first full year of professional baseball,” Yankees minor league pitching coordinator Nardi Contreras said. “He succeeded at every level and he’s learned at every level. He’s a kid who knows what he wants and he works at it.”
As if his natural physical abilities weren’t enough, it’s Melancon’s uncanny makeup and tremendous work ethic that inevitably are the first traits mentioned when discussing him.
Armed with a fastball that tops out at 96 MPH and a big-time curveball, while he has the stuff to strike more batters out, he had the foresight to focus his attention on perfecting his changeup and become a better overall pitcher instead of piling up numbers.
“He didn’t have a changeup going to the Dominican [Instructs] last year and so he worked on his changeup,” Contreras added. “He could probably strike out a lot more guys if he wanted to just using his fastball and curveball, but he developed his changeup and that he did.
“He’s become a guy who can throw his changeup for strikes and get people out with his changeup. He’s not a two-pitch pitcher, he’s a three-pitch pitcher with both fastballs too.
“He’s got a power sinker and he’s got a power fastball he can get to the mid-90’s. He’s capable of doing some things. Of course the presence he takes on the mound is tremendous, and his work ethic is awesome.”
He has so few weaknesses in his game, if any, that many believe he could have pitched in the big leagues last season had it not been for growing 40-man roster depth and some key offseason additions needing those spots.
Melancon, who doesn’t have the type of ego to hold grudges or feel he should be handed anything, would rather use last season’s momentum as a springboard to the big leagues.
“The surgery is behind me, my arm problems are behind me, I’ve had some experience, and I feel it’s just right around the corner,” Melancon said. “Just that hint of success makes you want to work that much harder.”
Here’s more on Melancon:
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Fastball. Melancon has both a four-seam and a two-seam fastball in his arsenal, but he’s more of a power-sinker pitcher. His sinker ranges anywhere from 90-94 MPH and it’s a nasty pitch with the running action he generates with it. It bores down and in to right-handed batters and away from left-handed batters in a lefty power-slider fashion, and opposing batters can’t get good wood in it. So while it is a weapon designed to induce harmless contact, it is also a strikeout pitch. He also throws a four-seam fastball in the 92-94 MPH and topping out around 96 MPH, and it gives him a pitch to get the ball upstairs and give opposing batters a different plane with the baseball. He has excellent command of both fastballs.
Other Pitches. Melancon’s main strikeout pitch is his plus 12-to-6 curveball that is one of the better curveballs in the entire organization. It’s a real hammer pitch that drops right down into the zone and he also has such good command of it that he can bury in the dirt for the swinging strike when needed. The biggest success for him in 2008 was the development of his changeup into another plus pitch. It was just an average changeup when he first signed and it was a pitch he threw infrequently. He now has the plus command, good fading action, and the confidence to throw it in any situation for either a ground ball or for the strikeout.
Pitching. Melancon is as physically gifted as anyone. Armed with three plus pitches, a strong-framed body, solid mechanics, and great command, there’s little he can’t do. He is also very adept at keeping the ball down in the zone. But while those are all excellent traits, it’s his special mental makeup that separates him from the rest of the pack. He doesn’t just thrive in pressure situations, he actually seeks them out. And when there is a weakness or adjustment to be made, he doesn’t rest until it is rectified. He is unflappable on the mound and he has the innate ability to tunnel vision his focus on the catcher’s mitt. Throw in the fact he is beloved by teammates and coaches alike, he provides a strong leadership presence that can be contagious.
Projection. Quite simply he has the stuff, command, and makeup to be an elite closer at the big league level – period! His presence in the organization is one of the reasons why so many insiders believe the Yankees can put Joba Chamberlain into the starting rotation with no long-term ill-effects on the bullpen. With Mariano Rivera coming off of arguably his best season and with no signs of letting up, Melancon will have to break into the big leagues as a setup man where he can learn from Rivera as his heir-apparent.
By Bernie’s second full season or up to around 1500 at bats he was finishing a year in which he hit: 289 384 453. Melky’s third full season which led him up to about 1400 at bats:
249 301 341. Their difference in their obps at around the same points in their respective careers is 83 points. Bernie also improved from his first partial to his second partial season, regressed in his third full season slightly to 268 333 and then, shot up to elite status the following season (His second full season) with the numbers above while melky took a nosedive in his third full season. They are not comparable whatsoever.
“Am I misinterpreting what you said? That the “code” only applies to guys who aren’t buttheads?”
m-
it’s kind of like when a person’s immune system attacks something that doesn’t belong.
After reading this about Melancon “Armed with three plus pitches, a strong-framed body, solid mechanics, and great command, there’s little he can’t do.” Why not try him out as a starter?
Here are the place/dates/times for Torre’s book tour:
http://doubleday.com/2009/01/2.....-verducci/
Doreen,
Pat M’s comment wasn’t a “little sexist” — it was one of the crudest, most vulgar, derogatory remarks about women that’s ever been posted here, and it was based on the oldest, lamest gender stereotype.
randy chose to “interpret” and defend that remark, because he agrees with Pat M on Torre – but even all randy’s spinning doesn’t help.
I think you’re the only one who’s commented on it – I decided to ignore it at the time — but I think you’re right that it shouldn’t pass without comment.
“Why not try him out as a starter”
Umm because there’s to need to.
Word has it he’s doing signings at some other popular spots such as “Backstabbers”, “Ingrates”, “Hypocrites” and “Phonies”. Cover charge is a $ 3 dollar bill. Or explicit photos of a former spouse/significant other.
Melancon does not need to stay in scranton to learn how to pitch with runners on. He can do that in the majors with time. Remember Joba coming out a few times with runners on to see how he handled things out of the stretch? Melancon could certainly do the same. Im not advocating that he should be brought up immediately if he does not do well in spring or if he feels he needs more time or if other coaches feel that way but melancon is not a very young kid. he has pitched in high leverage, intense situations.
And its not like he pitched 20-30 innings last year. One year out of TJ surgery and he pumps out 95 innings of fantastic, dominating ball. He did not seem to show any signs of slowing down or ill effects from it afterwards either. Not only did he pitch 95 innings but at all three levels. And not only did he pitch in all three levels in one season but improved at all three levels. And this is not some 19 year old kid out of high school, mark will be 24 by the start of the season already – more than a year older than hughes and older than joba.
His scouting report rating on baseballcube is – Control – 85, K – 91, Efficiency – 100.
Joba’s was – Control – 74, K – 100, Efficiency – 99
I thought I was the only one who’d noticed it, and was misunderstanding it – and I’m certainly not one to cry *sexist* at any given opportunity.
Apparently not. At least Doreen got an apology.
Why all the super long posts?
You people are ok long winded and dull for the most part
“Am I misinterpreting what you said? That the “code” only applies to guys who aren’t buttheads?”
m-
it’s kind of like when a person’s immune system attacks something that doesn’t belong.
***********************************************************
So that’s a yes?
Blockhead,
If reading about one of the better prospects in the yankee system is dull to you, then, you probably should not be in the comment section of a yankee blog…
Angel,
Yes, I didn’t see the apology until after I posted. But the apology was actually even more disheartening for a feminist. Pat M has talked about paying golf at some of the most exclusive golf courses in the country. I guess I really shouldn’t be surprised that a phrase like that is still acceptable to “question one’s intestinal fortitude” at fancy golf courses.
Clare I offered my regrets, and have seen the ways of my sinful life….I’m certain however if you were to be a woman beat writer and entered the clubhouses or locker rooms you’d be less shocked and more thick skinned as Randy explained……If you want to flog me in the Town Square, I’ll hope on a plane and fly from Newport Beach Ca. and I’ll met with you …Or you may with my promission use it in your book The LoHud Years…..I believed my apology was excepted and then came Clare…I have no regrets for the message, however I did have remorse for the metaphor used….
Ansky: “And Planet Manny is not a place I want the Yanks to buy a ticket to. Those tickets are only available in the one-way variety. N.F.W.”–I couldn’t agree more. Please, already. Enough of this talk of Ramirez; not for the money, and not for a quitter. That’s just what he is, a quitter and a flake. Great bat, but after 75 games, he’ll invent an injury or get in a twist over nothing in particular, then sulk like a baby. This was a guy who, when re-habbing in Triple-A Buffalo in 2000 during a contract year, said he was happy there instead of up at Cleveland and might stay there–me-first. I can’t be told for a second that he didn’t quit on Boston in 2006, during and after Boston Massacre III. No way to Ramirez.
Real World: “I’d rather have Matsui for one year, and $13 million, than sign Dunn for whatever he’d cost, over however many years. Dunn will hit more Homers than Matsui, but he K’s a ton, and some fans of teams he’s played for, say he never comes up big. Matsui is a clutch hitter, and the Yankees dearly missed that last season. I like Matsui’s bat in the line-up.–Bingo, Real World. A healthy Matsui is a 100+ RBI player who isn’t all HR or K. Matsui can put his bat on the ball, and turn over his wrists to bring in the run from 3rd with a grounder. While I know the Yankees have too many outfielders and not enough spots, why ditch the depth they have now? This team has needed depth for some time. Matsui is in a good spot in which he can DH. JD can play left and, as in essence a second center fielder, use his speed to cut down on the yawning gap in LCF, and Swisher can play right if Nady gets cold at the plate. Depth did wonders for the late 1990s Yankees, especially when Davis and Strawberry were injured and they inserted various successful left fielders (Curtis, Ledee) in 1998. I would hold them and maintain what may well be a very potent offense, especially with Matsui.
I have watched Melancon in person on a few occasions honestly not impressive.
“They are not comparable whatsoever.”
dave-
as far as your bernie /melky comparisons there’s a problem.
bernie was 25 on september 13, 1993 . he played most of the season of 1993 at age 24.
1993 24 NYY AL 139 567 67 152 31 4 12 68 9 9 53 106 .268 .333 .400 100
melky will be 25 on august 11. he’ll play this upcoming season mostly at age 24.
so melky hasn’t had the chance to match bernie’s mostly age 24 season yet.
at his age now, melky has almost three times the at bats bernie had at the same age
bernie didn’t have his breakout season until 1994 when he turned 26 on september13,1994.
that is unless i didn’t add birth dates correctly, but i think i did.
bernie birth date- 9/13/68
melky birth date- 8/11/ 84
i like melky. do i think his upside is as high as bernie’s ? no i don’t, but melky is very young and did more than bernie up to this point in melky’s career.
randy l, I agree. Let’s not give up on Melky just yet. Just last year this was written about him:
“When you look at Cabrera’s body, his established control of the strike zone, and his ability to hold his own at a young age, you recognize that all it’s going to take is for him to start elevating the ball. Cabrera may not get there in 2008, but he’s going to pop 80 extra-base hits and slug .500 in a season very, very soon.”
http://mybaseballbias.com/2008.....alex-rios/
blockhead here’s a short post for you. No ballplayer who plays for Torre in the future will ever trust that rat with any confidence nor will the players speak their minds freely unless they don’t care that what they say may someday be parroted by a naked emperor.
On Pete’s post, Wiggington would be well worth a contract due to his ability to play IF and OF. I’d pass on Jones, who has faded fast the last few years and seems more interested in buffet tables than baseball.
I’m surprised that no one has mentioned at least the possibility of collusion spurring all these quality free agents still available. It’s a tough economic climate, but baseball is awash in money and has been for years. I don’t believe that economic concerns alone account for all these players left unsigned. Something’s fishy. The same thing happened in the mid-1980s, also during difficult economic times. This smells of collusion.
HaHa! The 1st thing I thought when I saw Pete’s lineup was “that’s probably the Yankee lineup in 2011″.
OLD
NO D
NO SPEED
NO HOMEGROWNS
FLAT
ladies and gentlemen, your 2011 Yankees!!
And there is no indication whatsoever that this is the wave of the future just because Torre needed to further assauge his “hurt feelings.” I doubt that you will see a spate of books of this ilk by managers, coaches, etc., especially those who are still in the game, since the vast majority appear to respect and live by the code.
What better way to earn and keep your players’ confidence?
” I guess I really shouldn’t be surprised that a phrase like that is still acceptable to “question one’s intestinal fortitude” at fancy golf courses.”
i once caddied a practice round of lpga golf at the tampa tour event for my friend karin mundinger with jan stephenson , rosie jones, and joan joyce .i’ll tell you i was shocked by the language, just shocked. especially when i kept stepping on jan stephenson’s putting line.
hey i was new at golf? how am supposed to know?
trisha,
The transient nature of the game now makes the “code” and invaluable tool. Chances are pretty good that Torre will end up managing someone he wrote about. Not really, but you never know.
I’m just trying to say that you have to be careful what you say, because you never know when it’s going to come back and bite you.
Watching portions of Torre’s Larry King appearance last night led me to believe that Torre doesn’t feel any regret about what he did. That’s a good thing. But I’d wager that many people in the game look at Torre differently now. And it’s not with renewed respect.
Torre needs to keep the tan year round. He looks much better.
My order of best NYY free-agent signings:
1. Mark Teixeira
2. CC Sabathia
3. AJ Burnett
—-Teixerra will be the best fit out of these three and will probably be the only one staying on the Yanks until the end of his contract.
Also…I think the Yanks should sign Sheets. He will accept a 1-year $7 million deal. That is a steal for any team. Then you move Joba in the bullpen where he is a more dominant force
Mel, I agree with your post. And even if he never ends up managing a player he threw under the bus, he’s definitely left with trust issues with the players he presently manages and those he will manage in the future. Whether he realizes it or not, that is a real problem. Heck, not just the players. I imagine he’s lost the trust of a lot of people.
I don’t suspect collusion because this economy is the worst of our lifetimes except for those who are 80+
In the mid-80’s players kept getting virtually the same offer from every team and thise “recommended” numbers had to come from somewhere. This year other than the very best, youngest FA nobody is getting offers from anywhere.
Part of it is FA compensation which the MLBPA should try to get rid of. Part of it is the increased appreciation of the value of young, cheap talent. Thus teams with full 40-man rosters don’t want to give up something of value to make room for an expensive veteran. MLB teams did very well financially in 2008 for the most part, but most are seeing decreases in season ticket sales, Radio/TV ad sales and signage sponsorship. Thus long term guaranteed contracts are scarier than ever.
Add to that the Yankees getting thier top three choices and you have a tough situation for the “B” and “C” list FAs.
randy, I’ve noticed over the past several days that you have a talent for ignoring, evading, and avoiding questions and comments that might challenge and/or undermine your statements. You might have a future in politics.
I just read this statement in the last thread:
“Randy I, in all years in lockerooms, did you ever see a ballplater sqwat when taking a leak ????”
———————————————–
Un-Freakin-believable!
Crude, rude, and the most AGEIST remark I have ever heard!
So what if my knees have grown weak with age!
This just means when I’m playing SS, that I am a lot closer to the ground, and can get down on ground balls better then that A-Fraud guy.
AGEIST… AGEIST… AGEIST!
And girls… you got it all wrong.
Of course you will never see a girl sq’w'ating in the locker room.
The damn women have DOORS on their toilets.
(what I would give for a freakin’ door!)
fine – its difficult to compare melky and Bernie at all because they were at totally different places in their career at the same age. Frankly, Melky was massively overhyped by the wide majority of the yankee community. He showed some talent and with the success of cano and wang, every one just assumed any prospect with talent was a can’t miss guy that would stick in the majors. It doesnt work like that. Some guys show promise and then, collapse while others continue to improve. Melky shouldnt be thrown at with yesterdays trash but he should not be handed the CF starting job out of ST without showing anything in ST.
That mybaseballbias quote illustrates my argument perfectly – overhyped, overrated but has never shown us the type of talent that people pretended to see in him in 2006. It would be one thing if he did not improve but it is quite another to see a complete regression in patience and contact with not much improvement in anything else. The expectations of melky went far above and beyond any amount of talent that melky has ever shown in his career and was doomed to be a dissappointment from the start. And no I dont say that about every prospect as I think guys like Hughes and melancon will both be huge for us within one to two years from today. You win some and you lose some with baseball prospects but Its like that quote from Blow by Johnny Depp – Our “ambitions far exceeded (Melky’s) talents” I am sorry to say.
“Has Joba’s performance on the mound suggested that he needed more time in the minors?
nick in sf-
i’d say the fact he didn’t last more than 11 starts without missing the rest of the season as a starter is indication he needed more starts in the minors before he was rushed into the rotation.
by the way,what kind of proof do you want? a priori? a posteriori ?
maybe deductive/inductive, analytic/synthetic, necessary/contingent?
make all the smoke screens you want. you’re not going to erase what i know.
Old(but wise)YanksFan-
you are not helping : )
“Melky shouldnt be thrown at with yesterdays trash but he should not be handed the CF starting job out of ST without showing anything in ST.”
dave-
sit down before you read this.
i agree.
cpmpetition is excellent.
melky should have to earn it.
an aside about bernie. he was not a natural player. he learned the game. he obviously is a very bright guy as he’s become a world class guitarist while excelling at pro baseball. bernie is a unique guy as far as the ability to learn.
i don’t know if melky as that ability to learn the way bernie did. the ability bernie has to learn things was why i thought he should have been resigned in 2007. he was just beginning to learn how to be a part time player. i think he would have made the adjustment if he would have played.
i was disappointed he didn’t go somewhere else and prove that he could still play. at any rate, bernie has a remarkable ability to slowly improve. not everyone has that. he was a special guy.
about torre’s book & the rules evolving.
it is still wrong what torre did regardless.
if you’re boss treated you like crap or told everybody that you were or are depressed & thought about quitting you would respect him or her less,that will never change in life no matter what.
you can debate this subject till the end of time but you better believe the players that torre ripped hate his guts.david wells said torre didn’t talk to any players that were not his boys.
how would torre feel if a book was written about him & the negative things he did??? he would feel the same way the players he ripped do right now.
as a person in any field,business,family,friends,etc… you are respected much more if you do not repeat personal things or make negative opinions public.the one thing that made torre so special was that he did not repeat such things or talk bad about people in public.
he simply as a person can’t be respected like he once was.if anybody did this to anyone of us we would be mad & respect them less.
“make all the smoke screens you want. you’re not going to erase what i know.”
randy, what you know and what you’re able to convince other people aren’t always the same thing.
First, you pulled a little rhetorical swichteroo. The original question that you answered – “was Joba rushed?” – was asked in relation to Melancon and was related to whether Joba was rushed to the majors. But in your most recent post you talked about whether he was rushed *into the rotation*. Different arguments.
So was Joba rushed to the majors? He did get hurt, yes, but did he struggle in any way in either the bullpen or the rotation? Do you think Joba should start the season in Scranton to show he can start without injury?
You’re partly correct – that Joba was injured might be an *indication* of something. But what? Perhaps that he was rushed to the majors too soon. Perhaps that he was rushed from the bullpen into the rotation too soon. Perhaps he’s just injury prone. Perhaps his shoulder will never hold up for a full season or for 200 innings. Or perhaps he just got an injury that a lot of pitchers get at various stages of their careers and that particular injury at that particular time was indicitave of nothing. We just don’t know.
Now I’m sorry that you considered my questions a smokescreen. But it wasn’t a huge debate trick, I just took the two questions you posited and applied them to another pitcher who was injured last season to illustrate that your questions (and their answeres) don’t necessarily prove what you suggested. So who was blowing smoke? People can decide for themselves.
To me, being rushed to majors means you either are over matched as a hitter or as a pitcher. Based on Joba’s performance there is no way Joba was rushed, particularly in the role he was used in when he first came up.
Angel Berroa will given long looks at 2nd and 3rd base while the WBC games are going on. If he passes the test under the watchful eyes of Mick Kelliher, it makes for an end of spring decision for Joe Girardi between him and Cody Ransom.
Nick Swisher is penciled in as the backup for Teixeira.
Buddy, I agree with you. To my untutored eye, it looked like Joba proved he belonged in the majors right from the start. Somebody could make an argument that the method used to transition him from the bullpen to the rotation wasn’t ideal so maybe he was rushed in that respect – I have no idea but it’s not a ridiculous notion.
But I don’t see how anyone could prove that the method of transition caused Joba’s injury. That doesn’t mean it didn’t cause it or make it more likely to occur, but how do you prove it?
Hi all- You gotta look at Don Mattingly in a comic skit at Will Farrell’s comedy site – http://www.funnyordie.com/vide.....cquetball.
“First, you pulled a little rhetorical swichteroo.”
nick in sf-
i must be getting smarter since i didn’t know what” rhetorical” means. i’ll get right back as soon as i google it.
” Rhetoric is the art of using language, especially public speaking and writing, as a means to persuade”
sorry about the “swichteroo”. i know that word. all i can say is that ADD gets in the way sometimes.
i think you made a good analysis with joba. because of all the variables the yankees really should do nothing but start him and go slow. if any probems pop up , they should slow things down and regroup.
joba is in a good position because as a fifth starter they can skip him or replace him if necessary if he has some injury problems. i think he needs a year of slow steady development just starting.
if he does have some injury problems, i’d still leave him as a starter, but send him back to rehab at the triple a level. i would not switch him back this year to the bullpen under any circumstances.
the yankees need to think about his development and not jerk him around the way they did last year , he needs a nice slow steady year of 25 starts with no drama at the back end of the rotation.
Thank you, randy. I think we’re making progress. I agree that Joba should be a starter, period, for the whole season.
And I’ll even throw you a bone: I concede that it’s possible that, had voices like Mel Stottlemyre’s and, what the heck, Neil Allen’s, been part of the brain trust when they decided how to handle Joba last season, a different and even better plan might have been implimented. But again, we just don’t know.
Just want to point out that Cashman did offer an olive branch in the form of a minor league contract to Bernie and an invitation to spring training. I have always assumed, and based on what I read at the time others did as well, that had Bernie accepted that invitation and signed that contract, he would have won a spot on the major league roster, since Torre ultimately chose the team to go north. Bernie let pride get in the way, I suppose, and, I can’t say as I blame him. But he has gone on with is life and has been able to pursue another talent – lucky for him. Anyway, it was as “guaranteed” a spot as Bernie was going to be offered at that time in his career.
We’ll never know how he would have fared, though.
86w183, I like your points a lot, especially on free-agent structure, but think there are some things left to consider. These economic times are bad, especially since there is a real crisis among financial giants affecting lending that will surely affect baseball and other sports, in addition to everyday people and businesses. But unemployment now is not nearly as high as it was in the early 1980s, the immediate prelude to the collusion scandal a quarter century ago. This is significant because it is still working and middle-class people who must buy most of the tickets to games. These times are bad but, in comparison to the 1980s, neither better nor worse by various economic indicators.
You’re right that teams did well in 2008. By and large, they also have done well in the several years since the CBA was ratified during the 2002 season. Unlike the 1980s, when teams were crying rightly or wrongly that they were unprofitable (and authors such as Andrew Zimbalist have shown there was much more smoke than fire to those claims in the 1980s), both small and large-market teams are eschewing free-agent acquisitions. There is a pattern to this as well, with many big names signing early and others seemingly Waiting for Godot. Also, I think you’re right in locating the depth of good young talent in the game. Good point. But your point on the unwillingness to cede someone/something for a higher-priced roster spot doesn’t mean that collusion hasn’t occurred. It could mean that it has.
Granted, all this is speculative and requires an investigation that for the MLBPA would be a formal grievance. All I’m saying is that the economic climate now and 25 years ago, as well as teams’ responses or lack thereof to free agents, is remarkably similar.
This book has made some normally mild mannered people here very cranky and some very passionate people here off the charts. Darn that Joe Torre!
Lou Pinella more days until pitchers and catchers
‘Thank you, randy. I think we’re making progress. I agree that Joba should be a starter, period, for the whole season.”
our progress is good. let’s not rush it. if we rush it and it blows up on us, one of us or both may be sent back to the minors by PA. you know, banished to one of those guest blogs that have one of the two posts a day.
oops Piniella
* have one or two posts a day.
I was just invited by my dad to go to Torre’s signing at Yogi’s museum.
Okay, Old Yanks Fan just posted the controversial remark. I, myself, found it initially hilarious. I had a split-second flashback to when I was 12. Had to use the “ladies” room at the train station in Japan. I was so mortified that I had to pass grown men using the urinals, that I hardly noticed that the “toilet” was in the ground. And yes, ladies had to squat to use it. But the cruel joke was that men had to squat too.
So, I’d assume players who’ve played in Japan may have squatted to use the bathroom.
Since I wasn’t here for the original conversation, I won’t comment any further.
yank should sign cruz.
Some people say that I was rushed to the majors too fast. If you look at my LMAO and LOL rate, could it be that I was help back too long?
See ya later.
Dave,
The ambition for Melky isn’t to force an unreasonable comparison with Bernie, it’s to have him hit .265- .280, get on base at a .350 clip or above, and contribute a little slugging.
None of the above is unrealistic or out of reach for this player to achieve.
If he does that, and continues his quality defensive play, he can easily satisfy the Yankees as their starter for 2009.
Glenn, Swisher will not be relegated to backup duty to Tex. He’d get into about 5-10 games that way all season – talk about a complete waste. I assume he will compete for the RF spot with Nady………..
m
The quote OYF wrote was out of context. You needed to wait to read the whole post before you commented on it.
pat,
I “stand” behind every word I wrote…
m-
poor pat m.
his comment he directed to me just won’t die. your story is funny though mel.
it was all my fault . i egged him on.
too bad you missed the king/torre interview. there was no middle ground on the blog and tempers were flaring.
randy l,
I read up to and through jennifer’s blow-by-blow analysis. As you know, things get aired later here, so I got to catch the beginning.
Saw the part where Larry asked him about the code, and threw out the Boomer bone. Then Torre took the bone and chased his tail with it in his mouth.
I decided to watch UH men’s volleyball after that answer. Glad I did. They knocked off #2 Cal State Northridge.
Speaking of blow-by-blow. Go BJ Penn! Hilo Boy!
bodhisattva-
i found that post you mentioned:
January 28th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
“On the contrary, Manny Ramirez is a student of hitting and brilliant at thinking along with the pitcher. Just ask Don Mattingly, who raves about Ramirez’s baseball intellect.
He would impart great information to Cano and others in the dugout, and spur Cano on the re-dedicate himself to his own hitting talent. To say nothing of his Ramirez’s actual bat, and his single-handed ability to alter a pitcher’s approach by virtue of his presence.”
-bodhisattva-
when you take the above with the BABIP info from the site in the post about cano, i can see the possibility that cano might benefit immensely from having a hitter like manny around. i can also see how he was helped by having a coach hitter like mattingly around. and a manager that understands hitting the way torre did.
it’s possible long was part of the problem with cano in 2008. he was the hitting coach in 2007, but mattingly and torre were still there. maybe long’s influence wasn’t as much.
mattingly used to say as a player that just because a pitch wasn’t a strike that it didn’t mean he couldn’t hit it. this kind of a hitting coach might be better for someone like cano.
trying to make cano take more pitches by swinging only at strikes could make him tentative and develop a less sure swing. if this happened and he developed a wimpier swing, those 2008 babip stats could be explained:
O-Swing%
2006 – 30.8%
2007 – 34.4%
2008 – 30.7%
O-Contact%
2006 – 63.2%
2007 – 69.2%
2008 – 75.3%
Z-Contact%
2006 – 95.5%
2007 – 95.2%
2008 – 93.9%
BABIP
2006 – .363
2007 – .331
2008 – .286
he could actually swing at less pitches out of the zone as he did , but put a higher percentage of them in play (as he did) with a wimpier swing that makes more contact but without much pop. without as much pop the BABIP could go down because the quality of the balls hit was less.
so he’d have a lesser BABIP as he did.
with a mattingly’s free swinging approach, he’d swing at more bad pitches and actually swing and miss more or foul more off. he could have a lower O-Contact %, but when he did hit those bad pitches he did so with more pop which resulted in more hits.
in short, cano may not be able to hit the way long wants him to which i assume is being more selective.
mattingly may not have been able to hit that way.
i’m not saying long or mattingly is better as a hitting coach, but i’m putting out the idea that there may a difference and it may be affecting cano.
if the above gives anyone a headache i totally understand as it did me thinking about it earlier in the day. for those who don’t want to “overthink” it using the stats, i’m really saying that making some hitters focus too much on deciding if a pitch is a strike or a ball
can make them tentative and have a wimpier swing as a result.
different players have different abilities to recognize strikes and balls. players like cano and mattingly can hit pitches hard that aren’t balls. they can be good hitters while still swinging outside the strike zone.
if they want to not swing and get ahead in the count it’s as simple as deciding not to swing before the pitch when early in the count. pitchers throw them mostly balls because they know they’ll likley be swinging.
this hitter, in effect gives himself his own take sign ahead of time (except when he has two strikes on him and can’t ). he doesn’t recognize a pitch as a ball and not swing. he decides not to swing ahead of time. this will get him ahead in the count and force a pitcher to throw a strike when behind. when a hitter like cano is ahead in the count and he knows a strike is likely he simply decides to swing. advantage cano or mattingly.
it’s a cat and mouse game. with this approach , the hitter knows when he’s going to swing and when he’s not. the goal is we want cano swinging freely with a strong swing. we don’t want a tentative wimpy one that puts more bad pitches in play weakly hit.
long’s lessons to cano are related to the battle between torre and cashman because torre is old school as mattingly is. there’s a lot going on . but i think it revolves around old school vs new school. it’s not surprising that long is close with arod. i would think it’s likely that long is not close with torre or mattingly, but close with cashman.
the sides are starting to line up.
my apologies if this is unclear. i know what i mean ,but it’s hard to put it in words.
I got married near Hilo.
Buddy,
North of Hilo? The Hamakua Coast is beautiful. The husband wants to end up there. I prefer Kohala, especially Kamuela/Waimea.
Just South of Pahoa, on Kapoho Kalapana Rd, cliffside.
I just ignored it, Clare – knowing I wouldn’t get a response from either of them if I said anything about it anyway.
Never been there. The husband used to go fishing out there. Sounds close to the lava flow?
I think Torre’s “I’ve done no wrong, I’ve burned no bridges, I’ve offended no one” stance last night will produce some interesting fireworks in the next week.
Torre already gave two things to think about with the King interview.
1) he stated no one talked about A-rod “behind his back”. The book contradicts that.
2) he stated this book was in the works two years ago! That puts Verducci in an uncomfortable spot. Verducci wrote several negative Yankee articles calling the Yanks “cowards” during the Torre/NY break-up and never disclosed he had a book deal in the works with Torre.
Read Verducci’s comments in the NY Times when the Yanks said he had a conflict of interest because of Torre’s first book.
“It’s 10 years ago and clearly a matter of public record”
“So I don’t regard it as anything that’s covert at all.”
But that does not fly with what Torre said last night. (book has been in the works for two years)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f.....wanted=all
Dance Joe Dance.
My daughter was conceived at Mrs. Nakamura’s, in Hana. Her middle name is Kioki.
Dude of the Week: George Steinbrenner
For cutting a check for $500,000 and donating it to the Baseball Assistance Team in memory of Bobby Murcer. This was the signature moment at the BAT dinner as Murcer’s wife, Kay, and her two children accepted the check presented by The Boss’ daughter, Jennifer. The moment caught the crowd by surprise.
There was no advance publicity. And nothing much has been said about Steinbrenner’s donation since. At a time when controversy – once again – is swirling around the Yankees, The Boss – once again – shows he really knows how to spend his money.
http://tinyurl.com/cth96r
================================================
Nice to hear this.
hopefully when melancon does come up he will be doing a lot of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE6c3wAHeus
i still think we need another bullpen arm though, either through trade and FA (cruz)
m-
My Boss has a beautiful home there, with Lychee fields. We stayed there when we got hitched. Do you think Mauna Loa is gonna blow soon?
m-
BTW, is the husband named Q?
Mmmm…Lychee. The fruit of the emperors.
OYF,
TMI. The road to Hana is very bumpy!
Lend me a shoulder guys, Bynum out with a sprained knee.
Serena Williams Australian Open victories
2003, 2005, 2007 and 2009
Alex Rodriguez MVP awards
2003, 2005, 2007
Fingers crossed there’s a pattern here.
^^^Nice link on King George. Knows how to spread God’s $$$ around. Good for him.
I haven’t been keeping track, but I just got to wondering. How many of the bloggers who have been passing Matsui off as a liability, useless, too old, washed up or expendable are also saying the Yanks should sign Andruw Jones?
If this sounds like you, please ‘fess up now and face the gauntlet of ridicule & humiliation you deserve. You don’t know d*ck.
B.T.W. …
GO STEELERS!!!!!
m,
Recipe was great. Thanks again. I did a version with sweet potato, peas, currants and white potato. Insanely good.
Glad to see you back posting, I was worried about you!:)
“Lend me a shoulder guys, Bynum out with a sprained knee.”
m, guess I have been out of it, when did Bynum sprain his knee?
What is this with the Knicks? A winning streak?
They are doing much better than I thought they would this season. The next couple of games might not be pretty though.
bodhisattva,
Great!! You sound like quite the gourmet. The best sweet potato you can find is the Okinawan sweet potato. It’s purple and very delicious. Makes a great tempura.
ray,
It will be interesting to see how many or how few players are still on the unemployed list at the beginning of March. Jim Edmonds would be a serviceable pick up for someone.
Pau Gasol must have schooled Marc in 1-on-1’s when they were younger. Marc can’t guard him at all.
BREAK UP KNICKS! WOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOO!
J-Dawg,
I’m watching online, so the resolution’s a little fuzzy. It looks like Pau’s guarding himself! Except he’s looking in the crazy house mirror.
Pau’s said that he can take Marc anytime, but he wants Marc to have the same success that he’s enjoyed. I wish we could’ve kept him, but the feds would probably charge Kupchak with grand theft larceny.
m,
I think that they are closing in on Kupchak.
Marc’s had a few ups and downs so far.
He’s looked good at times, other times he has struggled adjusting to the league. It’s understandable.
It sounds tonight like the Laker fans are turning the FedEx Forum into Staples Center Southeast.
J-Dawg,
I’m flipping back and forth, but listening through the headphones. I finally figured out that the crowd was cheering Laker makes and Grizzlies misses.
Did you see that behind the back assist from Odom? If Bynum’s out for any extended period of time, Odom won’t be traded. This may be a reprieve for him.
You guys were talking bullpen? What’re the chances that Melancon makes the team out of ST?
-Mo
-Bruney
-Marte
-Veras/Albaladejo
-Coke
-Melancon
-Aceves (long-guy)
ray(sox fan)
Now the Lakers will have an excuse for this year too. lol
m
I think Odom has lots of talent but doesn’t play up to his ability at times. Seems to disappear at times. I’m not sure why.
M, the only reason for Melancon for making the 25 man roster out of ST would be a trade of Ramirez and/or Veras or an injury to somebody. Albaladejo has to be considered in the bullpen mix also, so I’d guess on a trade involving Ramirez and or Veras. Combined with either Nady or Swisher, that could bring in a great package of kids or a very good center fielder.
m,
That was a nifty pass from Odom. He’s definitely an enigma at times. The better he plays in the absence of Bynum, the less time for Chris Mihm. Less time for Mihm is a good thing for the Lakers.
I’m off to take a nap so I can get up and watch the Aussie Open final and see Fed tie Pete’s record!
MaineYankee,
It’s between the ears and it’s partly because of the recreational stuff. Definitely PSA for the kids.
He has a hard time being the #2, but he’s a great 3rd option.
Ironically, coming off the bench and sacrificing in his contract year has him playing mistake-free basketball. It’s Odom, not O-dumb. No more offensive fouls and throwing to the fans in the 2nd row.
The decision that Lamar has to make is, does he want to go for the money or stay where he’s comfortable for less? I can’t see the Lakers choosing Lamar over Trevor, who’s also a FA.
m
I don’t think he has the drive to go for the money. If he played like he did against Boston in that game in LA all the time he would have teams lining up for him.
Ariza has the drive but not Odom talent.
I have been advocating signing Nomar for SO LONG.
I absolutely love the guy – I don’t know why. I’ve always liked him. He’s a great kind of player – even if it doesn’t transfer to him being a great player right now. He’s got the grit and the clutch ability. I can’t think of a better kind of player.
I have been advocating signing Nomar for SO LONG.
I absolutely love the guy – I don’t know why. I’ve always liked him. He’s a great kind of player – even if it doesn’t transfer to him being a great player right now. He’s got the grit and the clutch ability. I can’t think of a better kind of player.
—————————–
Too bad he can’t play two days in a row without going on the DL.
I’m not sure that Nomar would be a good pickup. He hasn’t had a healthy season for some time. He was having health issues before he left Boston. Makes me wonder if there’s a reason he broke down so much.
I don’t even care.
When he’s up there, he hits the ball and when he’s not, he’s on the bench looking Nomar-like.
That’s all I ask for from the guy
GB7,
Ramirez needs to be traded before midnight. I don’t want a pumpkin in the pen! Just kidding. It just seems that Mark Melancon has a higher upside.
Nomar’s still in the game? Huh.
Yes, sitting on the bench “looking Nomar like”. lol
Where are those people that thought I was nuts for calling Brooke Lopez the steal of the NBA draft, Tim Duncan Jr.
When I said Lopez would be a better pro than Beasley
Well….
24 pts. 17 rebs, 4 blks all w/ a horrible coach in NJ
The Knicks picked Danilo Gallanari over this guy !!!
Brandon
It does make you wonder what some teams are thinking when they make draft picks. I have’nt seen Lopez play much but from what I read it sounds like he has some potential. I saw Beasley play recently and it looked like he had room to develop.
I always liked Nomar but it really seemed that when the Sox traded him midseason, that was the move that helped propel them to winning the Series that year.
I’m sure there were other factors, but the Sox played better after trading him.
m
January 31st, 2009 at 10:47 pm
GB7,
Ramirez needs to be traded before midnight. I don’t want a pumpkin in the pen! Just kidding. It just seems that Mark Melancon has a higher upside.
————————————————————
No question about Melancon having the higher upside. Ramirez was somewhat fortunate to have a season like last year’s, but, he’d be better in a larger park, and Veras, who has great stuff, but, NYY has better in the system. For a team that is close and needs bullpen help and/or an outfielder (SF-LAD-StL) that could make a very tempting package.
Nobody is going to trade for Ramirez.
MaineYankee,
Hello neighbour. Are you a Celtic fan?
GB7
The people that want to sign more relief pitchers don’t seem to realize how much depth there is. You make a good point about some of them being tradable pieces for a useable return.
Hi Ray. Yes I am. Since the days of Russell and the Jones boys.
“Brandon
It does make you wonder what some teams are thinking when they make draft picks. I have’nt seen Lopez play much but from what I read it sounds like he has some potential. I saw Beasley play recently and it looked like he had room to develop.”
When I watched Beasley I said he is a great talent but people calling him Amare Stoudamire were way off, he is a raw stronger more athletic Z-Randolph but very raw, when you saw Lopez in college you noticed the kid has a huge work ethic something Beasley didn’t have, the kid is a fundamental legit 7 footer, his idol was Tim Duncan, he mirror’d his game to him, he fell big time in the draft because he was a big that was labeled raw and people scoffed at his season, yet in the playoffs him and Robin were a tough tandem in a bad system.
MaineYankee
January 31st, 2009 at 11:05 pm
“Hi Ray. Yes I am. Since the days of Russell and the Jones boys.”
I still remember watching the Russell/Chamberlain battles. I guess that shows my age.
He will get an education playing against Perk & KG.
Kinda makes you chuckle when they talk about some of todays centers being the best of all time. Those two are clearly near the top if not on top.
Who Lopez ? didn’t he drop 20+ on the Celtics this season, I think it was Harris and VC aka 1/2 da man he use to be amazing that took that game off.
spring training can not come soon enough…
MaineYankee
January 31st, 2009 at 11:03 pm
GB7
The people that want to sign more relief pitchers don’t seem to realize how much depth there is. You make a good point about some of them being tradable pieces for a useable return.
————————————————————
I can see the appeal of a pitcher like Cruz. I’d have no issues with him, because that is somekind of arm. The thing is, with all that arm, he’s just as likely to be Kyle Farnsworth as he is to be a top f the line 8th inning pitcher like Carlos Marmol of the Cubs.
Brandon
It was so lopsided I really didn’t pay attention to that. Aren’t you glad they signed Carter to that last contract. lol I think Harris was a good trade though.
ray (sox fan)
January 31st, 2009 at 11:08 pm
MaineYankee
January 31st, 2009 at 11:05 pm
“Hi Ray. Yes I am. Since the days of Russell and the Jones boys.”
I still remember watching the Russell/Chamberlain battles. I guess that shows my age.
————————————————————
Where did you and Naismith ever get the idea of hanging up that old peach basket, anywway, Ray? Great idea.
GB7
If Cruz is that good why isn’t he signed. Just because of the draft picks?
“Brandon
It was so lopsided I really didn’t pay attention to that. *Aren’t you glad they signed Carter to that last contract*. lol I think Harris was a good trade though.”
I’m a Knicks fan. I watch the Nets because it’s escape from overrated basketball. The Nets atleast have a system and a plan, on the other side seriously Danilo Gallanari… first off luck to Andrew Bynum because Kobe may have ended his season tonight. When your a Knicks fan you realize the stupidity of the organization, passing up on Amare Stoudamire, trading the #1 overall which could have been Tyrus Thomas, passing up on Andrew Bynum and now Brooke Lopez…. Only the Knicks.
MaineYankee
January 31st, 2009 at 11:23 pm
GB7
If Cruz is that good why isn’t he signed. Just because of the draft picks?
————————————————————
I’m quite sure that is a major issue…giving up the team’s first pick for a middle-8th inning relief pitcher. The walks are probably a little scary, too. Not sure what he’s asking, but, I’d assume that 3 years and 3-3.5 mil a year would be close.
Brandon
I can understand your frustration. The Celtics hadn’t done to well till Ainge took over. Took him time to clean up the mess Pitino left. Also hurt them when Bias and Lewis died.
You have some hope now. I seems they are starting to play better.
MY, It means nothing…we’re basically waiting for 2010 over here !
Think of that
Ron Artest
Amare Stoudamire
Andrew Bynum
Ty Thomas
Brooke Lopez
……….. What organization swings and misses like that.
Mark my words – Mark melancon will be a major force on this team at some point this year.
Here is the original story about the Torre book in November of 2007. Yes it does appear that in order for this announcement to be made at this time that the process ofverducci nd Torre talking about it had to have happened prior to this.
I always thought that Verducci is an excellent writer but I also thought that because of his past relationship with T&orre on his previous book that his take on the Torre andthe Yankees was somewhat Torre biased
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3100641