Love or hate (and a question)
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Feb 03, 2009 
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The initial feedback on Joe Torre’s book has been mixed. David Wells joked he would “knock him out” the next time he saw Torre, then said more seriously he would probably just laugh at him. Columnists and analysts have criticized Torre (and co-author Tom Verducci) for including behind-the-scenes details of the Yankees clubhouse. Many players, including Derek Jeter, have said nothing because they haven’t read it yet.
I wonder how the fans will react. Yes, it’s obvious there are strong emotions in the posts/comments already written on here and elsewhere on the web. And while I respect the anonymity of the internet as a necessity in the kinds of discussions we have here, I do think there’s a big difference between ripping Torre on here (saying he’s no longer a Yankee or unwelcome back at Yankee Stadium) and then letting him know about it in person.
So, I’ll be curious to see what happens at the book signing in Manhattan in a few hours. Obviously it won’t just be Torre-supporters there because, if we’re being honest, even those who have ripped him will almost surely still read the book. Even Wells, who hates Torre as much as anyone, said he was probably going to buy it. The question is: Will there be mostly cheers or Bronx cheers? We’ll see.
I’m also hoping that Torre will give a few minutes to the reporters who show up. There are no guarantees but, if he does, here’s something for all of you to ponder:
What would you ask? What’s the one thing you’d want to know? I’ll try to check back before he arrives and, if he does talk, do what I can to sneak one or two of your questions in.
Questions —
Joe, how can you expect to have the trust of your players this year after violating the trust of your former players in this book?
What happens to the consulting contract that was part of your last Yankees contract? Do you really think they would welcome you back to the organization in any capacity?
How will you feel if Angel Berroa is wearing # 6 this season?
I am thoroughly sick of this subject. WIth pitchers and catchers due in camp 11 days from now, I am looking forward to other subject matter. This is the only post you’ll get out of me on this subject.
Torre is a lousy person and manager – fired from every job he had til he came to the yanks.
Looks like the circus starts early today. Torre is on the Z100 Morning Zoo now.
One question. While the book outlines in detail Torre’s opinions as to who is “at fault” for the demise of the Yankee Dynasty, does he place ANY blame at his own feet?
He was paid what he was paid because he (supposedly) was the “perfect” guy to manage a clubhouse. He certainly wasn’t paid for his game day and/or strategic acumen.
So, in effect, does he blame himself at all for the inability of some guys to be accepted in the clubhouse?
Or, is that also Arod’s fault?
In the end, while its nice “entertainment” until ST starts, this book will have no effect on the 2009 Yankees. It will have a bigger effect on Torre.
He is still an active manager in the game. It will be interesting to see how his players in LA interact with him.
How in the world does he expect ballplayers, who aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed as it is, to trust him again?
Does he really believe he can tell them, “I only talk about the guy in NY. I will never talk about you guys”, and expect his players to believe him?
In the end, while he will make money on the book, the hit to his reputation (no matter where you side on this, he is being the ultimate hypocrite by sharing clubhouse secrets after ripping others who did in the past), will be more than the royalties he gets from the book.
That’s why he has been on such a spin campaign since the execerpts came out.
If you knew in advance that this would be the reaction, would you have done anything differently?
I don’t get the vitrolic response to the book. So far I haven’t heard anything that was especially earth-shattering or that someone else hadn’t either said, hinted at or suggested.
Yes, some of the details are surprising, but I think a lot of people are going overboard on this one.
I would ask Joe where he feels the line is between what is okay and what isn’t okay to talk about.
sj, lets be at least a little fair here. he isnt on a spin campaign, he’s on a book promotion tour, you make it sound like he’s just here b/c he’s trying to repair his reputation.
Why didn’t you try bunting a little against Schilling in Game 6?
Oh I’ll read it, I just won’t buy it. I have it on hold at my local library.
Ask Joe why his book says they called Alex A-Fraud behind his back, when he said on Larry King they said it to his face.
Or
Why he ripped David Wells, and Jose Canceco (sp) for telling clubhouse secrets when he did the same in his book.
Steve
To go with that, why didn’t you steal on Jason/Wake when Jason couldn’t catch any of the pitches.
I would ask Joe if invested with Bernie Madoff and that is the reason he neede the money for the book. It goes against every value he ever had. I really believe the A-Fraud stuff was a joke, but it does not seem he clarified it that way. And the Roger Clemens stories or anything just aren’t good for the Yankees or his legacy.
In my opinion when you when you win multiple championships you are allowed to discuss negative things about your players.
Case in point: Phil Jackson.
Phil Jackson constantly rips his players in the media and yet players still want to play for him. It’s all because he’s a proven winner.
Right or wrong that’s the way it is, when you win rings you’re given leeway to say what it is you want to say.
So people may not like Torre’s book and how he disses certain players but the truth is he’s a winner and that’s usually what counts.
Just my opinion.
SJ- I think we need to send you to ask Joe questions.
Oh and I highly doubt his handlers will let any media get near him to ask questions. Every show he is going on his very carefully calculated. Not one show he is booked will ask hard hitting questions or press him on issues. They are all ‘friends’ of his.
My question would be:
Joe, how much did you lose in the Madoff scheme, and is that why you wrote this controversial book that has been hyped beyond belief?
Seriously though, I would ask the same question as SJ44:
Doesn’t the buck stop here, with you, Joe? You have said a lot of things about what went on in the clubhouse, but what did you do to stem this negativity?
hhmmm
I would ask him if he thinks he is a hypocrite and if he says no..why not?
Does he think the Dodgers organization and players are happy with this book(meaning does he think they can trust him) and with him going out and promoting it now..instead of getting ready for Spring Training?
Did the world really need to know that about Roger Clemen’s and liniment? Thanks for having that info in your book. That is an image I did not need to have in my head.
On Larry King you said your name was first on the cover of the book because T comes before V. Did you also know that B comes before S?
For the fan this whole affair boils down to one simple question – Why?
Why did you feel it necessary to have to go and write a ‘tell-all’ book? Everyone in New York – in the country knew that you got a raw deal managing the Yankees. Everyone took you for being a far, far better person because out of everyone you remained professional when everyone above and below you couldn’t or wouldn’t. By not participating in the name-dragging, you elevated yourself and returned a sense of dignity to the team, to the occupation of manager that hadn’t been there in decades. More than anyone else (including Jeter) you epitomized the quote “I thank God every day for making me a Yankee.”
Torre, you traded that for money. You left the team on noble principle and traded your reputation for ook royalties. That is what confuses and disappoints everyone.
Ham,
He’s on both campaigns. He is on a book tour. He is also trying to justify writing certain clubhouse secrets. Torre himself admits he is “shocked” (his words) at the reaction to the book.
Verducci has tried to fall on the sword for him on certain issues in the book and (at least so far) the public isn’t buying it. That’s a spin campaign. These guys never expected the negative reaction to a Joe Torre book. They believed he was above the fray when it comes to negative criticism of anything he may do.
Its not complicated. This is a man who told EVERY incoming player to the team that, “what goes on in here (the clubhouse) stays in here”. Clearly, he didn’t mean that advice for himself.
Just because the secrets he shares are about players the majority of Yankee fans despise, doesn’t make it ok. In fact, it makes it pretty calculating.
Bottom line, he sold a bit of his soul for cash. That’s ok, plenty of people do it in sports (sadly) these days.
He just lost the high moral ground position he has taken on several of these issues.
He’s now no different than some of the guys he slams in the book. He’s as much an attention seeking, money loving diva as Arod or Boomer.
Doesn’t make him a bad guy. Just makes him more like the subjects he despises than perhaps he cares to admit.
I’m angry at Joe, but I don’t hate him and I would never heckle him if I were to attend a book signing. That’s just wrong and I hope that doesn’t happen.
Why are there still so many misconceptions about Jeter and A-Rod’s relationship? Wally Matthews and anyone else who still insists there is a rift between them is wrong. Think back to last spring – it was obvious that the two felt more comfortable with each other than they had in years. Just because they don’t hang out all the time like they did when they were kids doesn’t mean they don’t get along. Two years ago, I thought Jeter was wrong not to stand up for Alex….as a captain, you always have your teammates’ back (no matter who). As they are on good terms now, maybe Jeter spoke to Alex personally about this and doesn’t want to publicize it. I’m not saying he did, but it’s a possibility. Once the players see each other at ST, it will very likely be obvious to everyone that this book isn’t going to do any damage to the clubhouse. They are all going to be very positive about 2009 AND there are a few new guys to haze.
Why is it ok for you to write a book like this, when you have chided others for doing so?? Don’t you think you owe your whole career to the Yankees, if you didn’t come to the Yankees you wouldn’t be anything, no one would care about you at all.
I’d ask Torre how long he expected the Yankees to keep on paying for 1996-2000. A lifetime ? If he saw George’s failing health shouldn’t he have known the sons would conduct business differently ?
SJ
This writer seems to have a source who says contrary to what Torre says, there is a clause in his contract about the kind of books he can write. Guess the nature and penalties involved with that will determine how comfortable the LA players feel.
http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/ci_11614297
Does he still think the Yankees will retire #6 ? (And not for Roy White!)
Ah…a thread that’s right in my wheelhouse.
As I said in the last thread, I believe that Torre made yet another in-game tactical error. He underestimated the depth and breadth of the passion of Yankee fans.
My Question for Joe: Do you see an ethical difference between writing about players that are still on a team together and writing about players after they have left the team?
Many of the players mentioned in the book are still playing together. By writing this book and releasing it now, he affects their relationships. What he has done is ignoble.
One thing that has changed in my perception and probably for a lot of fans – I have more respect for Alex Rodriguez than I have for Joe Torre – that wasn’t true before. I hope Joe realizes that.
i dont think the players with the dodgers care all that much because nobody will read “my 3 years with the dodgers” by joe torre.
Whether one wins or not shouldn’t have anything to do with the kind of person you are, or how you are viewed, by others.
That’s talk radio nonsense.
Would Joe Torre think a book about his life, prior to coming to the Yankees, is fair game? The bad marriages. The money problems. The falling out with his older children?
Would he want private details of his life in print for all to see?
Of course not.
Whether he wins or loses has nothing to do with the kind of person you are or whether is ok to write about certain issues concerning other people.
If you are going to talk about being a “family” and keeping things “in house”, than do the opposite, you are a hypocrite.
Your won-loss record doesn’t determine it. Your character determines it.
Joe, why did you write this book now? Why not 4-5 years down the road? Did you like “Ball Four” and Well’s kiss and tell books? Are you bitter toward you treatment by the Yanks?
im just not that big on unwritten rules. i thought ball four was great and i appreciate jim bouton alot to this day (for the book and for what he’s done for minor league baseball and now this old-timey baseball thing hes into)
i think torre just stepped back long enough to stop being joe the manager and joe the baseball player and just told the story as he saw it, warts and all. i think it takes some courage to do that. i know it creates situations where he’s hypocritical b/c of things he said earlier, and i know its certainly not pc to point out other’s foibles, and it goes against some more of the unwritten rules to talk about the locker room, but in the end, to tell your side of a story truthfully, you have to leave all the conventions and perceptions of you and the others involved aside and just tell what you think really happened.
im hoping that’s what happened b/c combined with verducci’s writing ablility, that would be a very interesting book and different from the tons of other boring-as-hell sports books on the shelf.
the repurcussions that come when joe goes back to being a manager and baseball guy, he’ll have to live with, but i think the prospects for an honest opinion on what happend by the man at the center of the storm could make for a really worthy baseball book.
i know people always referred to torre as a father figure to the players, but he never struck me as being really close to any of them save jeter and maybe jorge. i dont think he’s ever been any kind of father-confesser type and there has always been that bit of formality that alot of sons have with fathers where only certain things are brought up. so i dont see the repercussions from the book having much effect at all on his relations with his current players.
im looking forward to reading it, and i rarely read sports books, and if i had the time id go up to montclair state today to give joe a cheer.
joe WAS the perfect manager for the yankees from 1996-2003 imo. the ugliness that lingers after his departure doesnt leave anybody looking particularly good, but it doesnt change that fact, just like the unattractive end to bernie williams’ career doesnt detract from what he did for the franchise.
hell, babe ruth’s departure was rough, but nobody remembered that after a couple of years either.
2 questions
When and what was your last conversation with Cash?
and
Considering the controversy surrounding the book, is he comfortable with the book now being part of his Yankee legacy?
Dodger players don’t care. They’re in shock with the knowledge that Manny probably won’t be their to bail them out next season.
*So, Joe, do you think that Manny made his decision to decline the Dodgers offer after he read your book?*
*Oh, no. I don’t think he’s read it. The audio version’s not out, yet.* teehee.
That’d be funny if the Yankee clubby put the book on cd during spring training.
I would ask Joe if he’s rehearsed his “un-forced hug” with A-Rod yet. i would suggest that perhaps he could practice with Ruben Sierra.
I would also ask him if he feels a manager has any responsibility to maintain a harmonious clubhouse and how much in incentive money would he have required to perform such a task.
I would ask him two questions. Why, after having several years of very significant income, did he choose now, as an active and respected manager, to put his name to a gossip type book? And, where did you he hear “A-fraud” used and how come no one else has admitted to hering it?
Sam I think the very first question is the best one–
86w183 February 3rd, 2009 at 8:50 am
Questions—-
Joe, how can you expect to have the trust of your players this year after violating the trust of your former players in this book?
————————————-
However, I’ve been p!ssed at Torre since that BoSox series, and Steve B (not me) and Jennifer have it right–
1)Why didn’t you try bunting a little against Schilling in Game 6?
2)To go with that, why didn’t you steal on Jason/Wake when Jason couldn’t catch any of the pitches?
Take your pick.
In a few days this will all be over, and at the end of next week we thankfully, finally, get some real baseball! It’s about time!
Why didn’t you try bunting a little against Schilling in Game 6?
I asked myself this question all offseason between 2004-2005.
raymagnetic,
Great comment re: Phil Jackson. You can go home. If your girlfriend’s dad owns the team. And your main player wants to win so badly that he’ll sign off on it.
Just kidding. Torre will have make amends, but I think you’ll see a tribute. Let’s just hope it’s not posthumous.
O’s sign Ty Wigginton.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....gn-ty.html
RJ Pinstripes
Bouton’s follow up book to Ball Four, I’m Glad You Didn’t Take It Persoanlly gives the answer on how Torre felt about Ball Four:
On page 126 of the paperback edition:
“It is interesting that despite all the noise made by baseball players about the book (Ball Four), there were no nose-to-nose confrontations. … The only player who ever said anything harsh directly to me was Joe Torre of the Cardinals and he was in the stands and I was on the field at the time. … I didn’t catch everything he said. It was something like this: “Hey, those were some nice things you said about (Mickey) Mantle. Watch out. I hear he’s got a contract out on you.”
“Would Joe Torre think a book about his life, prior to coming to the Yankees, is fair game? The bad marriages. The money problems. The falling out with his older children?
Would he want private details of his life in print for all to see?
Of course not.”
SJ44 READ: Chasing the Dream: My Lifelong Journey to the World Series by Joe Torre
in which he talks about all that you just pointed out
SJ,
You and I will just have to disagree about it. As I said, Phil Jackson hammers his players all the time.
On January 11th of this year he basically said one of his playes was a scrub (Radmanovic) and the only one was an idiot (Vujacic). He dissed the best player in the League (Kobe) in one of his books and yet players still want to play for him.
Torre has 4 rings, 6 WS appearances and a string of consectuive playoff appearances. His record speaks for itself and I’m sure that’s what players buy into.
Torre can still convince players to play hard for him because he has a proven track record. If Torre was a guy who never won anything then he would have little right to talk but because he’s proven he’s a HOF coach he can say whatever he wants.
Right or wrong that’s just the way things work in sports. To the victor goes the spoils.
Joe will have to make amends.
m
So Joe has to date Jennifer Steinbrenner and get A-Rod to sign off on it to have Joe Torre Day?
Hank’s silence on this scares me more than anything. I keep picturing him bound and gagged somewhere.
“O’s sign Ty Wigginton.”
Makes sense for both sides, I guess. I assume Wiggy will some AB’s at 1st, 3rd and DH. Would have been nice to have him on the Yankees but he wasn’t going to accept a gig where he wasn’t getting at least 400 PA’s IMO.
He talks about it from HIS side of it. He hasn’t had a book done on him in which OTHERS talk about him.
That’s a big distinction.
Whether you like Kevin Brown or not, Torre writing what he wrote about him is out of line, IMO.
Arod? All he does there is expose himself, not Arod, as a fraud.
How many times have you heard Arod say anything negative about Joe Torre publicly?
The answer is ZERO. Joe wants to go there, and use Arod as the fallguy for his own mistakes, that’s no big deal.
However, if you are going to write a book like this, you can’t expect everybody in the baseball community to say, “You go Joe, good job”.
The fact that the book has been negatively viewed by many in the baseball community (just watch the MLB Network; they rip him every night) has to be a big surprise to him.
Pat, Torre’s comment to Bouton sounds like he was joking to me.
I still have my Ball Four book within arms reach of my desk here in my office, and from time to time I still peek through it. That is one classic book.
Do you remember how he ended it?
“All your life you think you’re holding the ball, only to find out that it was the other way around”– or something like that.
Ask him if he’s familiar with the term double play depth.
Also ask him if he has any tips for alienating a team’s most talented player.
Ray,
Phil Jackson has never put out an appearance that he was above it all. Never. He has always been like that.
Joe Torre has not. Joe Torre was all about “trust” and “keeping everything that happens in the clubhouse, in the clubhouse”.
That has never been Phil Jackson’s deal.
When you have a guy go complete off character, as Torre has in this book, then you can’t be surprised the fallout has been negative.
Unlike Phil, who has never been a hypocrite in the way he runs his team and carries himself, Torre comes off as being the ultimate hypocrite in this book.
That’s the distinction, not the rings, between the two men and how they go about their business.
Hank’s silence on this scares me more than anything. I keep picturing him bound and gagged somewhere.
=====================================
Hahahahaha
I have been wondering about Hank too. Starting to get a little worried
SJ,
Fair poit about the way Phil and Joe handle their business.
My point is that I don’t think the fall out will be that big of a deal amongst the players.
I don’t know though, you could be absolutely right being that you spend time around some of players and you are privy to certain things I’m not.
I’m just stating my opinion on the matter.
Rad IS a scrub, Vujacic IS an idiot, and Kobe just wants to win.
Jackson and Torre are actually very similar. Both needed extraordinary talent to win. Both have huge egos themselves.
One huge difference though, is their self-confidence? I don’t know if that’s the right word? But Jackson loves the give and go. Verbally sparring with Mark Cuban, Popovich is a mental chess match. But make no mistake, he respects both of those guys.
Jackson doesn’t diss players in the media to prop himself up or make himself look better. He’s doing it to condition their behaviors as a teammate, either on or off the court. His players, even the two Euros, know that Jackson loves them.
Torre on the other hand hates to be embarrassed. Ask SJ (because you can!), Michael Kay, anyone who’s crossed his line of sight. And it’s obvious that Torre doesn’t mind embarrassing people. As long as you’re in his “circle of trust”, you’re okay though.
I would ask him why he brought in Jeff Weaver in extra innings against the Marlins in 2003 and why he felt the need to burn out every decent middle reliever he had to the point where they were washed up, i.e. Paul Quantrill, Ron Villone, Tanyon Sturtze, Scott Proctor, Tom Gordon, etc.
Steve B
Bouton didn’t perceive Torre’s comments as joking. That’s a quote from the book and Bouton says they were “harsh”.
Joe Torre is not an axe murderer. He basically seems like a nice person, a human being with faults like everyone else. The only thing he’s taken an axe to is his credibility in relation to how he expects his players to keep clubhouse matters confidential and how fans percieve him.
He didnt expose drug activity or marital indescretions like Jim Bouton did in “Ball Four”. What Torre has done however, is cast doubt about player relationships and the management of the Yankees. Even the most inane situations, such as Bernie Williams forgetting his kid after a night game, should have remained unknown to the fans. Same for Mike Mussina’s comments on Mariano Rivera.
I’m more embarassed for Joe Torre than I am about anything that’s in his book. He’s lowered himself to the tabloid mentality that he disdained as Yankee manager. My only question for Joe Torre would be: Have you heard the clips from your reactions to David Wells’ book and Jose Canseco’s book and aren’t you being hypocritical for writing this?
Phil always seems to call out players in the press. He did it when he coached the Bulls and he does it now. That’s one of his motivational techniques.
I’m not mad at Torre like a lot of other Yankee fans are. Honestly there isn’t much of anything in there that we didn’t already know. However, my opinion of Torre is definitely tarnished. He sold out to make some dough. I’m still a Torre fan but I’m a bit disappointed he would do this book.
On a separate note, good signing by the O’s with Wiggington. I think they will be better this year than everyone thinks. MacPhail is doing a good job with the O’s. I like their lineup and bullpen but the rotation is pretty weak. Regardless, I think they will be above .500 this year. Especially is Weiters explodes like I think he will.
I would ask why now? Why not wait until he was retired?
Although I suspect the honest answer to both those questions is that you want to maximize profits and strike while you’re still relevant, or perceived to be relevant.
And, I like SJ44′s question – what portion of the responsibility for not winning titles does he bear himself? And if he was held in high regard for being able to manage divergent personalities, does he feel any sense of, if not failure, then dissatisfaction with his inability to rein in the new guys who disrupted the warm and fuzzies in the clubhouse?
My question would be if a player you currently manage wrote a book like yours would you fine him like you fined David Wells for writing his book? Or has your position on these types of books changed since you fined David Wells?
Tom,
Correct. Jackson even tries to mold behaviors with backhanded compliments. Or he’ll say stuff like, “It was a great shooting night, but we don’t want him to do that every night.” Never an empty word from Phil.
Ray,
As far as the players are concerned, there won’t be any fallout.
Most of the guys remaining on the team who played for Torre didn’t like him. They respected him. They just didn’t like him too much. To that end, the book re-affirms some of the things they didn’t like about him. The guys who did like him are the guys with rings. The book won’t change those relationships. Nor should it.
As I’ve said in the past, the book is an emancipation from the Torre Years for the Yankees. It will help Girardi because the comparisons to he and Torre will end. He will now rise or fall on his own merits, without the ghost of Torre hanging over his head.
Arod? If there is anybody who will be affected less by this book, its Arod. He could care less.
In a way, at least early in ST, the guy who will get the most “grief” about the book will be Jeter. He will be hit with questions he would rather not have to deal with in ST.
Other than that, it will have no effect on the team whatsoever.
One word:
Why?
I think people are misunderstanding some of us.
We don’t hate Torre, we hate the action.
He definitely let some private stuff slip out. If the book is as beautifully written as has been said, they didn’t need the “juicy” personal stuff.
At every one of Torre’s book signings should be a bowl of sour grapes prominently seen at the table.
Yeah SJ is right, the book won’t affect the players at all. Like Pete said a few days ago, this will be a 24 hour story in spring training. The reporters will ask all the players about the book, they will all say nothing and that will be it.
From the last thread: “Almost any pitcher coming over from the NL is going to see a drop in effectiveness. Almost any pitcher coming to the AL East is going to see an even bigger drop.”
The first part is true, but the second part is a myth, at least insofar as it applies to a pitcher coming over from the NL to pitch for the Yankees. Over the last five years, if you look at the average number of runs scored by teams in each division of the AL (excluding the Yankees), the East is by no means the dominant run-scoring environment everyone seems to assume. In ’08, the Central scored the most runs. In ’07, it was the West. In ’06, it was the Central again. In ’05 it was the East (by a margin of 18 runs over the West). In ’04 it was the Central again. The differences year to year and division to division aren’t huge.
Based on these numbers, I don’t see how anyone can claim that a pitcher coming from the NL to the Yankees as opposed to the Rangers or Indians, for example, can expect a further bump in their ERA by virtue of pitching in the AL East. The only way that would make sense is if the AL East is consistently stocked with the very best pitchers in baseball and this pitching dominance is masking the equally dominating hitting one finds in the AL East. Where’s the proof of that?
Clearly, a move from the NL to the AL presents a huge challenge for pitchers. But pitching for the Yankees shouldn’t be more difficult than pitching for any other AL team based on the strength of the division.
GREAT Story re: ALS and the 70th Anniversary of Gehrig’s speech if you’ve not seen it yet…
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02.....=1&hp
Patrick:
While I like the direction the O’s are headed, there is NO WAY they will be .500 or better this year. With nearly half their schedule against their AL East brethren, they just don’t have enough starting pitching to make it happen. If they get to 75 wins, they should be absolutely thrilled.
ball four is a good comparison actually, which shows what a great book it still is.
bouton was hated much more than torre could ever be. he was seen as tarnishing the great mantle permanently. (unfortunatly later events would bring mickey’s lifestyle out into the light anyway) bouton was a has-been who would have been a never-was if not for his combined 39-20 in 1963-64. he went 15-27 combined in the next 7 years and was doing tv by 1970.
torre is going to the hall of fame. (wearing a yankees cap). i think he’ll survive this.
I would ask him if he thinks that his current players will now question trusting him?
I would ask if he’s familiar with this quote
“Revenge is always the weak pleasure of a little and narrow mind”
I still like Joe but I don’t respect the form and tone in this book. I can separate the man from the message.
From the You Can’t Make This Stuff Up File: Brian McNamee is going on Howard Stern to talk about how upset he is that Torre and Cone “threw him under the bus”.
the jays look to be the bottom feeders this year. wonder if halladay will become available. big potential difference-maker right there
It’s America people. Torre has ever right to say what he wants. End of that discussion. Is Pavano Hughes able to make spring training this year?
Questions for Joe:
Why now?
What does the reader stand to gain from reading this volume?
(This one has teeth…)
Your tone appears vindictive in the book, was this your intention?
Today is also the 50th anniversary of Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and the Big Bopper’s death.
I always thought that Buddy was the true “King” of Rock and Roll.
http://video.google.com/videop.....uddy+holly
No one on here is questioning his “rights”.
Of course he has a right to say what he wants and/or write the book.
Just as folks have a “right” to comment on it.
Its about the WISDOM of writing such a book that is the topic de jour.
Some thought he had more WISDOM than to go this route.
That’s why there is fallout. Many people didn’t see Joe Torre as this kind of guy.
Randy Levine did, which is disappointing.
Any situation that makes Randy Levine look like the guy who was “right”, is not a good situation! lol
Some of you who don’t think this is a big deal? What if you were Alex, Damon, Wells, Brown, Mariano? How would you feel? Not what would you say publicly.
Alex has said through his friends that it’s not a big deal, but we all know that Alex is sensitive about his image.
Damon will say all the right things, but how would you feel if Torre (reportedly) said you battled with depression or wanted to quit?
Wells. Well we know what Wells says, he calls Torre out and stuff. But I think he’s secretly glad that he’s getting so much attention.
Brown. “Curled up in a crevice”? Was that really necessary? And did you see Torre explain it away on Larry King? Kevin Brown is a beautiful person or some bullcrap like that.
Mariano. I don’t know what was said in the book, but if there’s anything that lays blame at his feet it’s uncalled for even if there’s a grain of truth. The man is still in the game. Will still be closing big games for us. That’s just playing mind games as far as I’m concerned.
So the book is no big deal to some of you, but you might be thinking differently if Torre said something embarrassing about you. Then you’d probably think it’s a big deal, even if you made a show of saying that it wasn’t.
The Yankees Director of Media Relations (Jason Zillo) should inform the media that no questions regarding Torre’s book will be answered by players, coaches, Joe Girardi, or Brian Cashman throughout spring training and the rest of the year in the interests of distraction.
“the jays look to be the bottom feeders this year. wonder if halladay will become available. big potential difference-maker right there”
Disagree, Ham. Halladay alone makes them better than the O’s. Jays have a solid pen and ace. Some questions around McGowan, Litsch and a couple young guys they’re expected to pitch, but they definitely have more pitching than the O’s. Offense around the infield is a little iffy, but I see the Jays as at least 5 games better than Baltimore.
Who remembers Paul Quantrill:
(from Buster’s blog)
McNamee gets slammed by former Jays pitcher Paul Quantrill, within this piece by Richard Griffin. Quantrill is not thrilled with Joe Torre, either. Quantrill says in the piece: “It doesn’t matter if you’re [someone] like Brian McNamee or Jose Canseco, or whether you’re Joe Torre. There are certain things, whether it be about Alex [Rodriguez] or whether it be about any player, the sanctity of the clubhouse is something that we all try to live by. It blew me away that an active manager is even involved in a book talking about the daily grind.”
If Torre is really “shocked” at the reaction the book has gotten, then he really is an idiot. I don’t think people are upset with what is written in the book as much as they are upset that it defies his belief of everything that goes on in the clubhouse, stays in the clubhouse. I appreciate that he steered us to 4 championships, but he’s a hypocrite. I’m sure at some point in our lives, we’ve all probably been hypocrites. That being said, I’m sure all of us never came off portraying ourselves as saints, the way Joe did. If I’m the owner of the Dodgers, I have an issue with my manager on the road, two weeks before spring training starts promoting his book about another team, while all the players are in LA promoting the upcoming season and doing community work. There’s something wrong with that picture.
Ask Torre why he is a backstabber and a coward.
Why write the book, if you’re just going to contradict everything in it.
Stand by what you wrote, or don’t write at all.
“Mariano. I don’t know what was said in the book, but if there’s anything that lays blame at his feet it’s uncalled for even if there’s a grain of truth.”
Wasn’t it Mussina who was quoted in connection with Mo?
Tom,
At this point, it’s not really clear who wrote what in the book. But I think they decided to divy it up like this: Good? Joe wrote it. Bad? Tom wrote it. (verducci, not you.)
Steve B,
I disagree about the Orioles. They were over .500 halfway through the season. With the additions they’ve made I can definitely see them having 82 wins or more. Especially if the young guys step up (Adam Jones, Felix Pie, Matt Weiters). They have a pretty decent lineup now, a solid bullpen and while their rotation is kind of weak they have improved there (Koji Uehara, Rich Hill).
Obviously they aren’t a lock to win 82 games but I think they will.
Jonathan
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:18 am
Does he still think the Yankees will retire #6 ? (And not for Roy White!)
———-
Yankees won’t retire Roy Whites #6. First of all his numbers are not worthy of yankee retirement. Secondly Roy has been fishing around for someone to write a book himself about how he was discriminated against by the yankees. This was right after Sheffield made his remarks so don’t look for the yanks to put themselves in a position of retiring a number of someone who may not be as sterile as he appears.
Would you rather have Manny, or Wolf, O. Hudson, and Dunn?
That seems to be the Dodger’s choices. At, least according to Rosenthal.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....038;ATT=49
Tom:
I’ve not heard Joe say anything to distance himself from the book. Nobody’s disputed the content that’s been released. Seems to me he is standing behind it.
Steve B,
I haven’t read it, but I think that Mussina is quoted as saying that Mo was to blame for losing 2 postseason series.
The fact that it’s in Torre’s book means that he believes it, unless he prefaces the quote with, “I don’t believe this to be true, but Mussina says…”
IMO, he’s blaming Mo, just having Verducci & Mussina do the dirty work.
Tom (lohud tom) said that Mariano answered a Mussina question last night at the Knicks game. It’s in the last thread.
Yea, Ask him if hes really that BITTER about leaving the Yanks or if this is all for the all mighty $$$$.
Hes burned his bridges, there is no coming back now.
Patrick, The O’s will have a really tough offense-more so after Matt Wieters gets called up. However, their pitching is, as ualways, bad. It’s what, 10 days before spring training and they have 2 holes in their rotation. They’re the Texas Rangers of the East.
“It’s America people. Torre has ever right to say what he wants. End of that discussion. Is Pavano Hughes able to make spring training this year?”
Of course he does. Still doesn’t mean he’s not a dooouuuchhhhhheeee. We aren’t complaining about the legality of all this.
Wasn’t locker room happenings *supposed* to be sacred to players and coaches?
Torre knows this better than anyone else, especially since he does come form the Old School.
Terribly dissapointed, and to do it with Verducci.
This is not a big deal at all – get over it everyone. Seriously. Just stop.
regarding the jays, when your team president starts off the ‘state of the team’ rally with season ticket holders by saying, “We thought maybe we’d take a little step back this year. We have a problem with the economy.”…u know you are in trouble.
they have lowered payroll by $15M,they lost burnett and have signed nobody. mcgowan is out till at least may, shaun markum is out for the year.
i gotta think the O’s are going to be better than this bunch.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb
I have read with interest the reactions to Torre’s book.
As one on the outside looking into Yankee culture and history, I would have more respect for Torre if he had focused on baseball facts and stories.
I’ve never been a professional athelete so I admit I don’t know what the written and unwritten rules are in the clubhouse.
But it seems to me that it was not appropriate for Torre to talk about players struggling with depression or being in various emotional states. IMO that was a betrayal of confidence and I would have expected better of Torre in that regard.
Thanks Sam!
This blog hasn’t been this action packed for a while now, thanks for all the interesting posts.
“How will you feel if Angel Berroa is wearing # 6 this season?”
soo…if the book turns out what it is, #6 would probably be given out to a top prospect. or better yet, Swisher should wear it.
hehe
When Torre was on Larry King, he back tracked fronm the A-Rod /A-Fraud stuff.
he claimed that it was all in good fun and that players and coaches would ask Alex “who’s going to show up today Arod or A-Fraud”. The book, tells it another way. Or, so I’m told.
torre can do whatever he wants but if you’re going to put in a private moment with kevin brown in the book, something no player would ever want to read about, then you deserve any type of criticism you get. i predict the dodgers don’t even win 80 games next season.
The Torre/Jackson comparison are not valid, IMO. Torre was/is seen as a players coach who’s best skill was juggling the personalities and shielding the players from the media. He’s also taken stands against players writing similar books. Phil is seen as much more of a manipulator. Pushing the right buttons to get the best out of players. Oftentimes using the press to do so. He’s also a tactical mastermind – something Torre has failed to show. Plus, Phil wrote his book after he was retired. Not while he was currently coaching another team.
Another question — Why did he feel the need to use the “good” relievers in the 17-8 blow out game in 1004 knowing that there would be a game 4.
“Especially if the young guys step up (Adam Jones, Felix Pie, Matt Weiters). They have a pretty decent lineup now, a solid bullpen and while their rotation is kind of weak they have improved there (Koji Uehara, Rich Hill).”
I’d expect Jones and Weiters to be pretty productive, but I also expect Mora (97 RBI) and Huff to come back to earth a bit. It’s a decent lineup, but it’s not much better than what Toronto will work with. As far as the rotation, their #1 starter is a #3 or #4 on a good team and having the addition of Rich Hill improve your rotation speaks volumes and not much of it good.
Paul Quantill SHOULD be mad at Joe Torre. He basically ruined Quantrill’s career.
The Blue Jays are not a good team, JP Ricciardi is one of the worst GM’s in the league. They have a terrible lineup and not that good of a rotation anymore. Burnett is gone, Marcum is going to miss all of 2009 with TJ surgery, and McGowan is recovering from major shoulder surgery (labrum). So who do they have? Halladay, Litsch, maybe McGowan, ??? David Purcey, Matt Clement? Not very good.
The only good thing about Toronto is their bullpen. They will finish in last place this year.
I didn’t read the book (yet) but from what I’ve read around the web I’d ask the following question(s). Why did you (Torre) go after certain players and put their problems in the public eye, shouldn’t the privacy of the players especially in bad situations (A-Fraud) deserve to be edited out? How do you think your (Dodger) players will talk to you and in your presence from now on? (added by Mobile using Mippin)
jennifer
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:26 am
“Another question— Why did he feel the need to use the “good” relievers in the 17-8 blow out game in 1004 knowing that there would be a game 4.”
Jennifer, I knew Torre was old, but he was coaching in 1004???
Per MLBTR, the Pale Hose have made an offer to Abreu. 1 yr/$8M.
when u think about it, it is not an unlikely scenario where the jays are out of it by the ASB and one of either the yankees big 3 or boston’s starters is injured and halliday becomes trade-bait. throw out the ‘no trades in-division’ rule both teams have exactly the young pitching talent the jays would want and halladay could absolutly be a difference-maker. you know halladay would have to be interested in leaving a rebuilding team for a WS contender but would need to be taken care of. (unless he’s like delgado and just cant part with toronto, even for a winner.)
i see a very interesting situation developing there.
It seems like he isn’t the only person writing about clubhouse issues in the majors (see Canseco, Jose).
I would just ask him “How are you NOT Jose Canseco after writing this book?”
I believe his motives are spiteful and vengeful, and maybe in the end he is just trying to cash in. However, I don’t think he has said anything terribly awful from the excerpts i’ve read. I’ll get the book and see what he says, but I have a hunch that he is doing all this to get back at the Yankees, somehow. I’m not a journalists, but if you could somehow pry that out of him, that would be the most interesting to me.
Love the blog,
GOOD LUCK !!!
TYY is something like 475 pages so can’t all be juicy details like Kevin Brown going into the fetal position. I expect three quarters of the book is noncontroversial, life-affirming stuff about how great and challenging it was to manage the Yankees.
The problem for Torre is that all the excerpts released in advance of the book’s sale deal with sensationalist subjects. Fairly or not, TYY now comes across as a tell-all.
I’m hardly an authority on sports books, but when I think “tell-all book author,” I think David Wells and Dennis Rodman. Entertaining guys with crazy stories to tell who aren’t exactly models of dignity.
Torre has enjoyed the St. Joe, guru of the clubhouse persona for so many years. There’s some serious shock value in seeing him become a tell-all author and I think it’s responsible for much of the uproar over the book.
My question for Torre: What sort of emotions did you experience in the book-writing process?
Joe, if you could send one guy to the depths of hell, who would it be and why Randy Levine?
Torre using the “good” relievers in game 3 in ’04 doesn’t bother me. You have a chance to go up 3-0 you put your foot on their throat.
BD, I appreciate the correction.
if im abreu id already be packing for chicago.
btw i stand corrected, the jays have offered kevin millar a minor league contract. so they are jumping into the FA pool after all, big splash there.
The orioles offense is FAR FAR better than the Blue Jays. Roberts, Mora, Markakis, Huff, Scott, Wiggington, Jones, Pie/Freel, Weiters/Zaun
Thats a pretty solid group. I’ve already acknowledged their pitching is a bit weak. The bullpen has some potential with Ray, Sherrill, Albers. The rotation is also improved. Guthrie is the #1 and although he’s not an ace he’s pretty darn good. They got Koji Uehara and Rich Hill who will probably be like #3 guys. Mark Hendrickson is pretty bad but I’ve heard some rumors that the Orioles will get Braden Looper.
I think they have enough pitching to be a .500 team in 2009. Matt Weiters is going to RAKE.
Question for Torre:
What would you say to someone who calls you a hypocrite for writing a book similar to the one you called David Wells out for writing?
How much money did you lose in the Madoff scheme?
How does it feel to know you have stupidly tarnished your reputation among Yankee fans forever?
Why are you ducking some interviewers, such as Michael Kay?
Et tu, Brute?
I continue to have two problems.
1. Writing about things that were probably thought of as personal and confidential.
2. Biting the hand that fed you an induction to the HOF.
Go back to 1996, his hire was a joke. Both mutually benefited, only one party has spit into the other’s face.
The O’s make their rookies rake the infield?
Patrick,
Are you saying that there Weiters is prepared to hit major league pitching? He won’t have problems adjusting at all?
Piniella is the Phil Jackson of MLB.
Interesting that A-Rod got along great with Piniella who is as in your face, pull no punches as they come. You may not always like what you hear but it is done with a purpose and a level of trust.
I’d rather have someone lay me out to my face than stab me in the back anyday.
Another one….
You said you were ‘shocked’ at the backlash regarding the book. What did you expect to happen when people found out you threw your own players under the bus?
Roger Rubin of the NY Daily News is reporting that the White Sox have made an offer to Abreu 8 mil. for 1 year. I think he should take it, he might be able to make a little more but waiting also might mean he makes way less. (added by Mobile using Mippin)
“Another question— Why did he feel the need to use the “good” relievers in the 17-8 blow out game in 1004 knowing that there would be a game 4.”
Not 100% sure why he used Gordon that night. Quantrill had not pitched in 8 days previous to that night. Blowout is a good time to get a couple innings in.
“Are you saying that there Weiters is prepared to hit major league pitching? He won’t have problems adjusting at all?”
He’ll be the best catcher in the AL East the minute he’s called up. He’s hit everywhere he’s been and hit big. He’ll be fine when he’s called up IMO.
I’m at b&n right now on line, can’t wait to see Joe!
Why isn’t Weiters getting the “he’s to big to play catcher and should be moved” spiel that Jesus Montero is getting?
He’s 6 feet 5 and 230 pounds. Montero is 6 feet 4 225.
Granted he’s 23 and Montero is 19(!), but….
“Go back to 1996, his hire was a joke. Both mutually benefited, only one party has spit into the other’s face”
You in a space shuttle when the last game at the Stadium was played?
Ask him what he plans on hiding his mediocrity behind now that Manny Ramirez seems destined to sign elsewhere.
““Another question— Why did he feel the need to use the “good” relievers in the 17-8 blow out game in 1004 knowing that there would be a game 4.”
Not 100% sure why he used Gordon that night. Quantrill had not pitched in 8 days previous to that night. Blowout is a good time to get a couple innings in.”
Using Gordon in that game (coupled with then throwing him 2 innings in game 4 after Mo blew the lead) probably cost us the series. He was then overworked the rest of the Series and did not perform as well (see Game 5). Shoot, if Gordon isn’t used in game 3, maybe he pitches the 8th in Game 4 and Mo only has to pitch the 9th and the Yanks sweep.
Tom if you can’t trust your garbage time relivers in a 17-8 game, than why are they even up here?
“Why isn’t Weiters getting the “he’s to big to play catcher and should be moved” spiel that Jesus Montero is getting?”
Because he’s played it well.
“Are you saying that there Weiters is prepared to hit major league pitching? He won’t have problems adjusting at all?”
Yeah that’s pretty much what I’m saying. He is ready right now to destroy major league pitching.
If Torre was such a great Manager, why is it that the Yankees haven’t been to a World Series since Zimmer left. Coincidence, I think not! Perhaps Zimmer was the real difference maker. Does Torre address this in his book?
“maybe he pitches the 8th in Game 4 and Mo only has to pitch the 9th and the Yanks sweep.”
Gordon did pitch a clean 10th and 11th that night. Game 4 was on Mo, not Joe. Rivera hadn’t pitched in 4 days, so two innings to close out a series was not an unreasonable ask. He threw only 15 pitches in the 8th and he’s facing 7-8-9 in the 9th. He’s got to get those outs.
It’s the Playoffs, Jennifer, that’s why. You don’t put your lesse players in when you have a chance to go up 3-0.
Time for my morning shot of Manny:
If Abreu is being offered 8mm then we should be able to move Matsui and pay 5 to 6mm of his 13mm. Trading Nady should be pretty easy if we don’t ask for much in return.
So offer Manny 3 yrs at 65-75mm with deferred salary in 09.
We will be set for 3 yrs with the best team in baseball.
We are not in that position right now. We have one of the best pitching staffs for the next 3 yrs but not the best line up.
Manny gives us that.
Factor in the following:
1- Only giving up a 4th rd draft pick vs what we will have to give up next yr when we go big game OF hunting
2- Manny absolutely wants to be a yankee and absolutely belongs in the AL not the NL
3- This gives us the 3 yr window shot during Jeter,Mo,Posada, potentially CC’s 3 yr window to win
4- Gives Arod the line up support that he doesn’t have right now
5- Keeps him out of Flushing and pisses off Boston and LA along with Torre
So many reasons for and only salary against. Salary deferring takes care of that.
Cmon Cash, swoop in and solidify this team for a 3 yr canyon run.
Interesting article on how pitchers use high fastballs to disguise their curveballs. It includes the following perspective on Phil Hughes:
“It seems pretty clear that Hughes just doesn’t have the necessary deception yet and big league hitters are recognizing his curve and either laying off the pitch or hitting it hard. It is very possible that Hughes’ great movement was enough to fool minor league hitters and up until this point he never needed to properly disguise the pitch.”
http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....curveball/
If you read the whole thing, the guy seems to make a lot of sense.
i dont see wieters ‘raking’ upon arrival, most catcher struggle some at first.
CHONE projections for him might be more realistic:
59 runs, 16hr, 64rbi, .274/.352ob%
almost identical to thier projections for jorge:
60 runs, 16hr, 67rbi, .266/.363ob%
Random thoughts on “The Yankee Years”:
Joe Torre was not the right manager for Yankees 2008 – can you imagine Torre handling Joba, Hughes, kennedy and the young bullpen? Granted Hughes and Kennedy did not work out, but Torre would not have helped. However, the way Torre was let go revealed nothing good about the Yankee front office. If they have some egg on their face now, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.
I don’t care at all whether Torre made a mistake writing the book. I’ll let Torre be the judge of that. I suspect that many people decrying Torre’s “mistake” don’t care at all what happens to him. I could care less how well the Dodgers play in 2009.
I think you should be very careful when criticizing a book you haven’t read. Otherwise, I think you reveal your biases more than you add anything to the conversation. Plus, it tends to contribute to an unthinking herd mentality. Since I’m sure almost no one on this site has read the book…
Kiss-and-tell books have been a staple of sports writing for 50 years. The Yankee Years won’t be the first or last. Protesting that sort of thing is like wanting to bring back the corner soda shop.
I liked Ball Four and The Bronx Zoo, and I’m still a Yankee fan.
I don’t care at all about the sanctity of the clubhouse. Everybody likes gossip, whether they admit it or not. I can’t imagine a Yankee fan not wanting to know what goes on in the Yankee clubhouse or in the front office.
Revealing a few embarrassing stories about mega-rich sports stars doesn’t upset me at all. They’ll get over it and survive somehow, I’m sure. The stratospheric salaries they make are supported to no small extent by the culture that permits, actually demands, that these stories be written.
I guess I don’t see what all the fuss is about.
12 more days to pitchers and catchers.
Somewhere on a field in the DR, A-Rod is working out with Papi and Pujols and not sitting in a bookstore. Good times.
George was soft with Joe Torre. Billy Martin drew the REAL wrath of George. In the 70′s, Torre might have lasted one year.
“Revealing a few embarrassing stories about mega-rich sports stars doesn’t upset me at all.”
I would have a problem if my boss publically said I had a “single white female” obsession with a coworker.
Or if I had a tough day, told everybody how I confided in him (Kevin Brown).
I think most athletes feel they are in the trust tree when in the locker room.
btw, when a team, like the jays, decides they are not going to compete this year, like they are kinda doing now, why dont they lower ticket prices. as a fan, you could at least say, okay, im gonna see a developing team, but im going to pay 25% less to see them. that would be more honest ticket pricing than just jacking them up for full-fare to see bascially half a major league team stumble through the season with no hope of making the PS. and lets face it, chances are good that wells and/or halladay will not finish the season in toronto.
this isnt a situation like last year where they looked competitive but, hey spit happens…, this is a team that has pretty much conceded the division in january.
a little break on the pricing is definitly in order here.
“I would have a problem if my boss publically said I had a “single white female” obsession with a coworker.”
You are presumably not a mega-rich sports star. You have, and IMO are entitled to, a greater expectation of privacy than they are. The players know these kinds of stories get written. It comes with the territory.
Ask Joe if he’s planning on meeting Canseco and Bouton for cocktails before his appointment with Satan.
Wave Your Hat -
I think players may expect that stories of this type might eventually be written, but I think they assumption they are making is that the stories are written by their peers, not by their manager. The relationship parameters are quite different.
Ask Joe this:
How astounded are you that more than a year after you moved on Yankees fans are still so obsessed with you that your book is more discussed than the mightily reconfigured team is, just days before pitchers and catchers report?
You are right about that, I’m not even a semi-rich professional. But trust and confidential moments aren’t about money.
If this were just from a writer doing research, I’d completely agree with you. An antic dote picked up by a former player, or team employee, ok. But coming directly from a trusted member of a 30 man inner circle is wrong.
Joe Torre was the Capt of that ship. He wasn’t Jim Bouden or Sparkey Lyle. He’s still an active manager!!
Let me ask you this, lets say you are Russell Martin and you have a drug problem and you want help. Can you go to Torre for advise now?
Doreen, perhaps the relationship is different but at the end of the day the story is the story. The fact that it was Torre writing it rather than Boomer or Sparky Lyle or Jim Bouton doesn’t upset me all that much.
Plus, without having read the book and knowing the context in which these stories were told, it’s pretty hard to judge their impact.
Then ask the Dodgers this:
Say the Dodgers go the the playoffs every year that Joe Torre manages them, but a year after he’s gone he writes a book about ‘The Dodger Years’, and win the World Series in one third of those years.
You want to play for him or not?
Sorry, it was meant to say:
Then ask the Dodgers this:
Say the Dodgers go to the playoffs every year that Joe Torre manages them, and win the World Series in one third of those years, but a year after he’s gone he writes a book about ‘The Dodger Years’.
You want to play for him or not?
“Let me ask you this, lets say you are Russell Martin and you have a drug problem and you want help. Can you go to Torre for advise now?”
Did Torre reveal that kind of information? I don’t listen to every story, and haven’t read the book, but I was under the impression he did not.
question to torre:
in your 49 straight years of being either a player or manager, how has the major league clubhouse changed since the first one you were in as 19 year old catcher with the 1960 milwaukee braves clubhouse that had players like spahn, aaron, schoendienst ,and matthews ?
randy l -
Now THAT would make a compelling book!
“You want to play for him or not?”
Joey’s Poodle,
I’m a fan, not a player. I try not to project myself into their shoes. I doubt I would be successful if I tried.
I don’t know whether if I were a player I would want to play for Joe, but my reaction is (A) I probably wouldn’t think about it that much, especially on a day-to-day basis, and (B) I’d probably like to play for, and think it was advantageous to play for, a winner.
But the bottom line is, and on this I’m with randy l, who knows better than Joe Torre what player culture is like? Who am I to tell Torre he violated it or even made a mistake?
It makes no sense for us fans to get caught up in that.
Easy Question.
What was your goal in writing the book?
My question:
Mr. Torre, some of your apologists have suggested that your book is part of the struggle between those who’ve played the game and those who haven’t. Can you explain what the heck they’re talking about?
“Have you personally called to apologize for any of the stories in the book to the players in which they were about, i.e. Damon, Brown, etc.?”
“Do you feel what you divulged in this book is hypocritical given your public reaction to the David Wells book?”
“Do you expect one of your current players to talk to you if they are having emotional issues regarding teammates, organization, or the game itself? If yes, why in the wake of this book would they trust you?”
Oh, I forgot one:
“Is there any inside, personal clubhouse information you have on Manny? Being that you are in a divulging mood these days, anything you can tell about what went on in the Dodger clubhouse in the last month of so of the season?”
If ‘No’, follow-up: “Do you feel that information should stay private, or will you not tell us because he may come back to the team?”
Is the Yankee Years nothing more than Torre raging against the dying of the light? I.E. how the game has/is changing?
Tom-
Nice Dylan Thomas reference.
Sam, pretend you’re Suzyn Waldman and ask him his Oscar predictions.
Tom: we may never now what the true motivation for writing this book was, but if I had to guess it would be a combination of the money, getting his side of the story out after feeling disrespected by the franchise, and the money.
“Did Torre reveal that kind of information? I don’t listen to every story, and haven’t read the book, but I was under the impression he did not.”
The story about Kevin Brown’s melt down is close. Saying he went into a corner and started saying he was going home. And in truth, it’s not a question any more if Torre did write something like that, it’s if he would.
I hope for Torre’s grand book entrance – the background music is blaring John Lennon’s “Instant Karma”.
I agree, Nick. Toree may say all the right things in the next comming days about his reasons for writing the book; however, that 2 million dollar advance may just say it all.
I give up trying to spell Torre….
Nick In SF,
I’d say it’s not that complicated, it’s all about the money. 100%. If he wanted to get something off his chest, he could’ve done it for free anytime.
I think speculation on why Torre may have written the book is more revealing of the person doing the speculating than revealing of Joe Torre.
There, I’ve just launched my deconstructionist commenting career.
Wave Your Hat: you’re not entirely wrong, but there’s a difference between wondering and speculating about why Torre wrote the book and asserting why, as some have done.
But I think your theory reveals more about you than about those who’ve speculated.
A fine FU to New York and the Yankees from Joe. After all he did for the Yankees in the late 90′s he was treated very bad at the end, having forgot what he did for you Yankee fans!
Boston always loved ya’ Joe. Not your team and definitely not their fans, just you!
Looking forward to the book and it’s follow up in a year or 2!
Congrats and Gook Luck Joe!!!!!!
WYH,
I’m perplexed. You and I were the only ones to vehemently fight for Andy to come back. Yet, you and I are on the opposite ends of the spectrum re: Torre.
I totally respect your view, and know that you’re right.
But I can’t get over that Torre’s not who I thought he was.
To me, he was the real face of the Yankees. Stoic. Professional. The Father Confessor and holder of everything sacred. Classy. Worthy of respect.
In my little space, in my little corner of the world your word is gold. When you say you’re going to do something, you do it. If someone asks you to keep something to yourself, you take it to your grave. If you ask something of others, you do it yourself.
Well, in my opinion, Joe didn’t do those things. He’s coming across as a real hypocrite here. He’s already said things in print and on Larry King that contradict his story.
I understand he’s bitter, he has the right to say what he wants. But you can’t justify talking about someone’s depression. You can’t place the blame on one player (Alex or Mo, take your pick).
You did a great job and almost convinced me, but I can’t justify what Torre’s done. He really didn’t do anything. But he did enough to convince me that Torre’s not who I thought he was.
That’s actually more of phycoanalytical approach.
Having owned minor league teams, and being around athletes for my entire career, I can tell you they don’t appreciate someone writing about what goes on in the clubhouse.
I don’t care if its one page, five pages or a hundred pages, if a player doesn’t feel like he can trust the manager, the manager has no chance in the clubhouse.
Regardless of whether or not he’s a “winner”.
Surprisingly to some, players don’t get caught up in whether or not the manager is a “winner”. Mainly because the players know that in most cases, they and not the manager, decide who “wins”.
Most players want three things from a manager. Respect, consistency in behavior and trust. If they get those three things, they are good to go.
So much happens during a season. You have players who are out with ladies not their wives, when they run into a manager and/or a coach. You have guys who have had too much to drink, get in trouble, and need assistance to get out of it.
You deal with the funks, family issues, slumps, injuries, that ballplayers go through during a season.
Most players can adapt themselves to various types of managers. Easy going types, drill sargents, and all in between.
What they have a hard time adjusting to, and in most cases never do, is someone they percieve as a snitch.
Whether that person writes a book, is always going upstairs (to management) to complain about them, takes their issues to the media, anything that resembles a guy they can’t trust is someone players turn on.
Will that happen to Torre? I don’t think anybody can answer that question right now.
However, given the negative slant on a lot of what has come out on the book so far, its not a stretch to say guys in that Dodger clubhouse will view him differently than they did prior to the book release.
Howzabout dem Steelas!
Anything I said about Torre before I would be perfectly comfortable saying it to his face. I have lost so much respect for him.
“I’m perplexed. You and I were the only ones to vehemently fight for Andy to come back.”
I assume that’s another one of your ‘jokes’.
“I think speculation on why Torre may have written the book is more revealing of the person doing the speculating than revealing of Joe Torre.”
wave your hat-
you’re on your game today.
the book sure seems like a baseball Rorschach inkblot test.
The Dodgers still owe Torre about $8 million over two years, so they had better pray he can still manage a team successfully.
I understand that the clubhouse should be and remain private, what happens there, stays there. But that is not the vacuum we live in. For example, how many articles have we read talking about what happens in the clubhouse attributed to un-named sources? But when a person puts his name on a quote we crucify that person. An unnamed source is a coward that hides behind an anonymous cover and he who stands up and faces it gets the wrath.
It’s silly season. WHO CARES what he wrote in the book?
Nick,
Not really. I fought for Andy early on, when others said he was washed up, crapped his pants in the second half, was a roid boy, blah, blah, blah. Wave Your Hat took it above and beyond, going to bat for Andy.
I heard your voice amidst the angry mob, but WYH was like the Lone Ranger out there.
Of course people wanted Andy back, but they wanted to punish him for many number of reasons. I think that WYH and I were among the very few that said Andy was being treated unfairly by the Yankees. Maybe I should’ve said that instead.
That being said, if you want to take it as a joke, then haha. It was pretty good, huh?
(and there were a lot of people who said some mean things that forgot all about that and changed their tune)
“I think speculation on why Torre may have written the book is more revealing of the person doing the speculating than revealing of Joe Torre.”
Same goes for playing armchair psychiatrist with any other baseball personality. ARod comes to mind.
TYY is really the Dodgers’ problem now. They’re the ones paying Torre, and if TYY impedes Torre’s ability to communicate with his players, then the Dodgers will get a lot less bang for their buck. Yankee fans can tear themselves up over Torre’s “betrayal” if they so desire, but that’s a personal choice. Dodgers fans are the ones who need to wonder whether the book will actually cost their team wins.
SJ
Rosenthal this week said Cashman insisted on Bowa and Pena as coaches. Was that an off field decision as much as on field one?
m: then I respectfully say that, on this issue, you’re full of beans. Or perhaps you weren’t paying such close attention throughout the entire Andy discussion here.
Anyone like Adam Dunn?
yeah, he strikes out, but he also hits 40 dingers per year.
When it comes from the manager, its a lot different than “unnamed sources”.
He IS the source.
I know fans love gossip, don’t care how they get it, and are eternally grateful when they get it.
However, from a players perspective, if the manager is the “source” for stories coming out of the clubhouse, he has lost the respect of the clubhouse.
You don’t have to like the “rules” but, that’s what they are.
There isn’t a turnover of privacy just because you are a professional athlete.
One of the dumbest arguments put forth in this entire debate is that these guys forfeit any privacy simply because of the size of their tax returns.
That ain’t how it is in the world of professional sports.
You show me a coach/manager that is percieved as a snitch by his players and I will show you a guy that is ineffective.
Whether folks like it or not, Torre opened a can of worms that didn’t need to be opened.
We all know he is bitter about losing the gig in NY. Writing a book about it, and selling out some players in the process, may be good for his wallet but, it hasn’t been good for his reputation.
Hence all the spin coming from his camp in the last week.
According to the 1050 ESPN radio website Torre is going to be on with Kay at 2pm and Verducci will be on with Kay at 5pm
http://sports.espn.go.com/stations/1050espnradio/#
I didn’t realize that. Must listen radio time
“We all know he is bitter about losing the gig in NY.”
i thought he turned down the yankee deal…
Re: the coaches, that was strictly an on field issue.
Cash didn’t like the fact that the coaching staff was too accomodating to Joe. Not enough friction or dissenting voices so, he wanted to change it.
Mel,
First off, the Yankees weren’t unfair with Pettitte. Second, most of the people on here wanted him back at the right price.
He was no longer a guy who warranted the salary he was seeking. To that end is where the disputes on here took place.
In the end, Andy signed a deal for less guaranteed money than he would have had in December. That’s not the Yankees being unfair with him. That’s Andy, and his agents, misreading the market.
Nick,
Possibly. But there definitely was a mob mentality against Andy.
And there was a lot of, “I want Andy back, but he should get $8M because he was so crappy in the second half”. There were people who said, “IF Andy was injured, why was he pitching?” Like he conveniently made up an injury to excuse his bad pitching.
I think I was one of the few voices to say that the Yankees were being punitive with Andy, even though they really needed him to round out the rotation.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but maybe my memory’s a little selective. At any rate, I don’t want to print out weeks’ worth of thread to prove you wrong. So you win!
“But I can’t get over that Torre’s not who I thought he was.
To me, he was the real face of the Yankees. Stoic. Professional. The Father Confessor and holder of everything sacred. Classy. Worthy of respect.”
Sounds a lot like the picture the media created over the years. Fact is, we don’t know these people. What we know is what we see on the field, what they want us to see beyond that, and what the media offers. None of it truly defines one’s character or who that person is. So when Arod runs around on his wife with a stripper, and Jeter hangs Arod out to dry, and Pettitte uses PED’s, and Torre sells out, should we really be shocked by it?
“I think speculation on why Torre may have written the book is more revealing of the person doing the speculating than revealing of Joe Torre.”
“But I think your theory reveals more about you than about those who’ve speculated”
“Most players want three things from a manager. Respect, consistency in behavior and trust. If they get those three things, they are good to go.”
“the book sure seems like a baseball Rorschach inkblot test”
Just a 10 minute synopsis of why I have been spending so much time on this blog.
Nick, make sure Cal treats this Jersey boy well:
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY…
http://videos.nj.com/star-ledg.....ornia.html
randy l
I admittedly know nothing of clubhouse culture or your experience in a clubhouse. Do Magrane, Larkin, Leiter, Reynolds and Mussina know less of the clubhouse culture than you do or are they just a vocal minority who thinks an active manager writing a book about players is inappropriate?
What will i ask?
Mr Torre. can you look your current Dodgers’ players in the eye and tell them to a man you will not spill the beans on what goes in their clubhouse. Also, do you feel this sort of book – which you had it in the works 2 yrs prior to ur departure – would have the same content regarding players like a Wells, ARod, Brown if you were retained? And finally, should Frank McCourt feel nervous abt firing you ever.
migames,
Do you really think that offer was made in the hopes Torre would accept it? Are you that naive?
That was the classic, “we made him an offer (that we knew he would refuse) and he turned it down”, type of move.
That’s classic George from back in the day.
That was the kind of offer they knew he would turn down, given that the day before, he was still pitching Cash to get a 2 year guaranteed deal.
If you don’t believe he is bitter about no longer managing the Yankees, as well as the diss he got on Closing Night, then you don’t know Joe Torre.
Not saying that he doesn’t have a right to have some bitterness.
Personally, I thought it was petty for the Yankees to exclude him during the Closing Night ceremonies.
As far as not bringing him back? That was a move that should have been made after 2006. They did it a year too late, IMO.
This misguided Andyier-than-thou act will not be tolerated!
Anyway, if Andy goes 6-11 with a 5.78, there won’t be many who’ll admit to wanting him back.
SJ
It’s not just sports. I don’t care what your profession is. You can’t tell me (not you, others) there aren’t moments in the boardroom that, what’s said there stays there. Same as in your auto garage. Trust doesn’t change based on what you wear to work.
And players do care. Probably not Yankee players because the problem, Torre, isn’t there. But I would bet there are a couple of Dodgers that don’t care for this.
Lastly, nice to see Joe is spending his days leading up to ST on a book tour. I think that was Joe’s biggest problem from 2001-2007. Too much celebrity, too little baseball.
SJ44,
I realize that A-rod, Mo, and Jorge were all coming off career years, and the situations aren’t the same.
But I think they could’ve squeezed out a few more rubels for Andy. They used his desire to pitch only for the Yankees against him.
It was one year, I didn’t see the harm of bumping up the initial $10M offer. Even if the market was dictating otherwise.
My feelings on Pettitte color my arguments, but so do yours. You even said you wanted Andy to go away. Something about getting rid of the dynasty mentality or something.
So either all the vets on the team are overpaid or Andy’s being underpaid. I think we all know the answer to that!
Anyway, peace to all. I didn’t mean to open the Andy scab.
William Buckner
February 3rd, 2009 at 11:52 am
“The story about Kevin Brown’s melt down is close. Saying he went into a corner and started saying he was going home. And in truth, it’s not a question any more if Torre did write something like that, it’s if he would.”
I think we are all missing the point.
*That story is not about Brownie*. It’s truly about the *heroic* act of a great manager and human being, Joe Torre, who saved the day and got Brownie back on the mound to fight for his team.
I thought about what I would say if one of Brownie’s kids approached me – upset that their Dad was made to look like a total pathetic crevice crawling loser in Torre’s book..
My answer –
” Son, don’t look at it that way. Yes, your Dad had a moment of weakness. He cried. Grown men do cry. And yes, sometimes they want to give up and crawl into a crevice.
The important thing is boy – your Dad had the greatest living manager in the entire world, Joe Torre, at his disposal. Did your Dad give up? No. And that is all because of the magnificant Joe Torre. A true leader of men.
So when you get on your knees at night, you thank God for Joe Torre. That man saved your father. He turned a quitter and whiner and crevice crawler into a ballplayer that day. Of course, if you haven’t played the game at the professional level – you don’t know what I’m talking about”
New post up!
“If you don’t believe he is bitter about no longer managing the Yankees, as well as the diss he got on Closing Night, then you don’t know Joe Torre.”
you are right, i dont know Joe Torre, nor do I care about joe torre’s personality. I really could care less. All that doesn’t take away the fact that he was our manager when the yankees won 4 world series. Everything else is just noise
In the first comment to this post, 86w183 has correctly pointed out the question that no one will ask. I would phrase the questions this way:
Mr. Torre, a respected baseball media source, Cot’s Baseball Contracts, has reported that your contract extension with the Yankees, which you signed in 2004, to manage the Yankees in 2005, 2006, and 2007, contained a six year consulting agreement with the Yankees. Are you still under contract with the Yankees? If so, what services do you perform for them, for how long, and how much are you to be paid? Does your consulting agreement allow you to publicly reveal information gained in your consultations with the Yankees? If you are not under contract with the Yankees, what happened to the six year agreement? Did the parties execute a mutual release when you agreed to manage the Dodgers? If you executed a mutual release, did any consideration flow either way for the release, or did the Yankees get anything from the Dodgers to release you from your contract? Did the Yankees have to allow the Dodgers to hire you, or could they have held you to your six year contract for consulting? Are you satisfied with the way the Yankees handled the six year consulting agreement given your decision to be hired by the Dodgers?
Tom, that was awesome, thanks. I think he short-changed Cal on Nobel Laureates. He looks like he’ll be an outstanding Cal Bear.
“It was one year, I didn’t see the harm of bumping up the initial $10M offer. Even if the market was dictating otherwise”
1) Paying over market and getting overly sentimental about some of these guys has been part of the Yankees problem the past few years.
2) Case in point: Andy Pettitte getting $16M per for ’07 and ’08.
3) By making Pettitte’s incentives very reachable (barring injury) the Yankees did in effect bump up the $10M offer. If he does exactly what he did last year, he’ll make nearly every dime of the $6.5M in incentives. They were quite fair with him.
“I think we are all missing the point.
That story is not about Brownie. It’s truly about the heroic act of a great manager and human being, Joe Torre, who saved the day and got Brownie back on the mound to fight for his team.”
DT,
It’s great what Torre and Brown did, accept my point isn’t either. It’s that the incident should’ve stayed private between Torre and Brown.
Steve B,
I never said I was rational on the subject.
But for the record, I really, really hate A-rod’s contract.
I hate it. With a passion.
Mel,
Its a business, first and foremost. The business works both ways.
Do you think the Yankees were happy to take the bullet on Andy’s HGH stuff from last year?
Do you think its acceptable to not inform the ballclub that the HGH stuff was going to go public prior to signing your guaranteed 16 million dollar contract?
Its a business. Just as Andy was informed by his agents to say nothing, sign the deal, then deal with the fallout, the Yankees are going to make moves that improve their team.
Put it to you another way. If they lost Mark Teixeira to the Red Sox because they gave Andy 13-16 million dollars, even though his market never came to warrant that kind of money, how killed would they be getting today from the media and the fan base?
The Yankees aren’t a charity. If Andy got another offer(s) that exceeding the Yankees offer, which was the highest offer for him on the market, he would have had leverage.
He had none. When that happens, you are in trouble. Ask Bobby Abreu.
He had a better year than Andy last year and can’t get a sniff of a deal in the marketplace.
Contracts are all about leverage. When players have it, they use it. When teams have it, they use it.
That’s what makes the sports world go’round.
“But for the record, I really, really hate A-rod’s contract.”
Me too.
SJ,
If the Yankees were really bothered by it, they wouldn’t have held out for Andy in ’09.
It’s a buyer’s market. Other pitchers are out there, Cash himself said that they could go in-house (I know, yeah right). But they didn’t have to sign, Andy. Seriously.
With the issues of Ramirez turning down the Dodgers offer and this book hitting the shelves, you have to wonder if there will be a connection? Torre took some big hacks at a player who not only is a good friend of Ramirez, but, is also Boras’ biggest client and other clients. Ramirez isn’t as stupid as many think he is….immature, yes, but, not stupid, and nothing is beyond Boras.
I was for bringing back Andy in 2009 before he went to Houston. You can look it up.
Mel,
They got him for $5.5 million guaranteed. That’s down from 10 and down from the 14 Andy was seeking.
To sign him to an incentive laden deal is a no brainer for the Yankees.
That was only possible because of Andy and his agents misreading the market.
The Yankees were perfectly willing to give him 10 million prior to signing Tex.
Cash was upfront with him when he told him that signing Tex would change what they do with him.
The Yankees were exceedingly fair with Andy. In most cases, GM’s don’t have face to face meetings with players to explain their off-season moves.
He and his agents just misread the market and it cost him a lot of money. That’s the leverage game.
If he has a big year this year, the leverage goes back to his side of the ledger.
Mel,
They got him for $5.5 million guaranteed. That’s down from 10 and down from the 14 Andy was seeking.
To sign him to an incentive laden deal is a no brainer for the Yankees.
That was only possible because of Andy and his agents misreading the market.
The Yankees were perfectly willing to give him 10 million prior to signing Tex.
Cash was upfront with him when he told him that signing Tex would change what they do with him.
The Yankees were exceedingly fair with Andy. In most cases, GM’s don’t have face to face meetings with players to explain their off-season moves.
He and his agents just misread the market and it cost him a lot of money. That’s the leverage game.
If he has a big year this year, the leverage goes back to his side of the ledger.
Houston? Andy pitched in Houston? He said his heart has always been in NY.
m: lots of stuff happens when you don’t pay attention!
SJ,
I understand and applaud the business side of the deal.
Just wish Andy and the Yankees could’ve come to better terms for Andy at an earlier date.
They needed Andy more than he needed them. He could’ve retired if he wanted.
But he wants to pitch in the new stadium, and he’s taking a paycut to do so. Andy’s okay with that, but I know he’s a little perturbed. But Andy will do what he always does, goes out there and leaves everything on the mound.
I think we have all fallen victim to Doubleday Publishing’s hype machine.
Seriously, this is a marketers dream.
Mel,
That’s just it. The Yankees didn’t need Andy more than he needed them. That’s just not true. They had other options if he decided not to return.
He had no other offers on the market. If he retired, the Yankees would have gone in a different direction. Their season wouldn’t have ended if Andy decided to retire.
If Andy accepted the 10 million dollar deal in December, he would have gotten a better deal for himself. It was Andy, and not the Yankees, who turned it down.
He had no intention of retiring. Never did. His agent spent the winter trying to get offers in order to move the Yankees off their stance and he couldn’t do it.
In the end, they reached a compromise.
That’s what happens when you misread the market. Guaranteed money dries up.
“Ramirez isn’t as stupid as many think he is….immature, yes, but, not stupid, and nothing is beyond Boras.”
Maybe, but he wasn’t smart enough to understand his market. Neither was his agent.
Only Yankees fans can’t see through the fraud of Arod.No team was EVER better with him on it.Yankees would be better off with Albert Pujols,who actually delivers in clutch.You have the highest paid player in baseball,that freaks out in post season. A player that hits home runs when it doesn’t count.HE IS AFRAUD.Your stuck with him for 9 more years,suckers!!
Pujols contract with the Cardinals is up after this season,but the Yankees have a first baseman.Which means your rival in MA,will get him.
Why would anyone spend one millisecond thinking about this ridiculous book let alone BUY it and READ it?? Jokers.
Torre is spot on about Arod,he’s selfish and would love to have Jeter’s image and rank as a Yankee,it’s obvious.Yankees bought themselves a multi million dollar headache.
Sam are you kidding me? I’ve had some unkind words to say on here about Torre in recent light of his book… on the internet, “anonymously” I guess…. and I would absolutely love to say the same things to his face. I would jump at the opportunity… I wish I lived in the New York area actually so I could have done just that at one of his bogus book signings….
Torre brought this town a lot of JOY. THOSE world series wins,made NY Yankees fans proud and spoiled us too.
Tony LaRussa replaced Joe with the Cardinals,in the same time frame Torre won 4 World Series titles,LaRussa won 1.