Moose and Mariano, plus some actual baseball stuff
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- February
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Long, messy train ride back home today but I figure it was better than driving. Then again, by not being in the car I wasn’t able to hear Joe Torre on WFAN. I do, however, have the hastily-prepared (so please be tolerant of any typos) transcript from his Q&A with NPR’s “All Things Considered” show. I pasted that below for your enjoyment.
One thing I did want to mention – and thus, inspire your comments on – is the passage a little more than midway through the book in which Mike Mussina is quoted saying this about Mariano Rivera:
“As great as he is, and it’s amazing what he does, if you start the evaluation again since I’ve been here, he has accomplished nothing in comparison to what he accomplished the four years before. He blew the World Series in ‘01. He lost the Boston series. He didn’t lose it himself, but we had a chance to win in the ninth and sweep them and he doesn’t do it there. . . . That’s what I remember about the ‘04 series.”
Now, I am as big a fan of Mussina’s bluntness as anyone (not to mention his “Bad News Bears” and “Captain America” t-shirts) but I admit to being a little surprised by the quote. It’s absolutely Mussina’s right to say it and there’s no denying it’s basis in fact, but I certainly didn’t expect it.
To his credit, Rivera – during an interview on MSG Network at halftime of Monday’s Knicks game – brushed off the criticism. He also said he was planning to buy Torre’s book and didn’t really comment one way or another on Torre writing it. (If you’re counting, that’s two old-school Yankees – Jeter and Rivera – deferring comment and one – Jorge Posada – defending Torre, in an interview with the Daily News down in Tampa).
In other actual baseball news, it seems the Yankees have been linked to Orlando Hudson, though my initial reaction is that any of the other three teams mentioned would probably be a better fit for him (not that he wouldn’t be a good addition, just that he’d likely get a better gig elsewhere). Also, the Dodgers seem to be getting further away from signing Manny Ramirez – a topic which I know you all love talking about, and we’ll get into in further depth later this week.
Great job on comments so far today. I’m off to write a column for the real newspaper.
Interview with Joe Torre by NPR News host Robert Siegel
ROBERT SIEGEL: For twelve seasons from 1996 to 2007, Joe Torre managed the New York Yankees. When he took over, the team hadn’t won a World Series in 18 years. They won the series in his first year, and then three more times plus two trips to the series that ended in defeat.
By Major League Baseball standards, a brilliant record. By the standards of the New York Yankees? A great start, but what happened in those other six years? What have you done for me lately? I speak as a recovering Yankee fan.
Joe Torre speaks now as the current manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers. He and Sports Illustrated writer Tom Verducci tell the story of how he managed one of the greatest teams ever, and then one of the greatest assemblages of great players ever, two very different things, in the new book, “The Yankee Years.” Joe Torre, welcome to the program.
JOE TORRE: Thank you Robert, it’s great to be here.
SIEGEL: The news obliges me to start with Roger Clemens, greatest right handed pitcher of recent times, accused of lying about performance enhancing drugs. There’s a story out that the syringes Clemens’ trainer saved show traces of Clemens’ DNA.
What did you make of all the stories about steroid abuse and Human Growth Hormone, during the years when you were managing?
TORRE: The interesting part about the club house is the sanctity of the club house. I’m into trusting players and knowing what we have to accomplish, you know, let’s go out there and play a game of baseball. I never witnessed anything that looked like it was something wrong. However I think we all have to share the blame here, because this thing is, was far more reaching than I ever thought it would be, and with Roger Clemens, just knowing the type of pitcher he was reminded me a lot of Bob Gibson, just that intensity, non stop, of course players are playing far longer than we ever did. I thought a big part of that was the mid 70s when they started, were able to use weight training and things like that, then all of sudden you realize how many people were all of sudden getting bigger. And it became a little scary.
SIEGEL: Throughout your book, two players emerge as representing different versions of being great baseball players. Derek Jeter, who you obviously adore and think the world of, and who is a selfless player and a winner; and Alex Rodriguez, who is a better hitter, for all I know, and you’d never say this, he could be a better shortstop in the field, too, than Derek Jeter. And yet a player who is mostly about Alex Rodriguez.
TORRE: But you know what Robert, I love him too. It was just tough, and continues to be tough, I’m assuming, just to have him relax. But he puts so much pressure on himself because he has enormous ability. He needs baseball in a way that I needed baseball years ago because, you know, I had very low self esteem. And when I was fortunate enough to be able to play baseball at a high level, I realized that what I did on the baseball field helped my self esteem. And when you need it that badly, you tend to get in your own way.
SIEGEL: But when you say you also love Alex, you also mention that he was a guy – A-Rod is how he’s referred to in the headlines. A-Fraud among players is how he is referred to, someone resented in the locker room, not well liked.
TORRE: I don’t know if it’s a resentment in the locker room. He was a little different than the other guys I had. And the A-Fraud stuff was done in front of him, none of that stuff was behind his back. I think this has been a tough grind for him because of the expectations he has of himself.
SIEGEL: I want you to relay this story, which this would leave one to believe that the TV sitcom “The Office” is really a documentary of life in baseball. When you would be interviewed on the pre and post game shows on the Yankee cable system, and you figured out that actually, in a way, you were being set up by your bosses in those interviews. I want you just to relay that story.
TORRE: I was getting paid by the YES Network to do the pre and post game. In other words, Kim Jones who was doing the interviewing, and Suzyn Waldman at times, they got to ask the first few questions. Before the game, the same thing: they got to ask the first few questions. Well, it got to the point where we’d lose a game or lose two games, and it got to a point where I felt sorry for Kim Jones cause all of a sudden these questions came out of her mouth, you know, critical questions, why did you use this guy or why did you use that guy? It was very out of character for her. I figured out after a time that because I was being paid by the Yankees, they felt it was, in my opinion, they were looking to discredit me in some way by asking me what they perceived as tough questions. It bothered me, not that the questions, I couldn’t answer the questions. It was just the reason they were doing it, and it just bothered the heck out of me, and after that season, I just said pay or no pay, I’m not doing it anymore. I still talk to the YES Network. But they were just part of the group that would come in and interview me. I just thought it was unnecessary.
SIEGEL: But you figured that [Brian] Cashman the general manager or these people are handing questions to the in-house interviewers saying make Torre look back in the post game show?
TORRE: Or, try to, ask him why he did this. It wasn’t Cashman. I think it was above him and George, a time or two. George Steinbrenner, god bless him. He wanted to win every single game and wanted to win by 10 runs. There was a lot of criticism, which we exchanged all the time, but that wasn’t an issue for me when he would do that with me. But there were some people that, for some reason, wanted me to appear uncomfortable.
SIEGEL: You remarked by the way that George Steinbrenner, to you, was always George. You addressed him as George.
TORRE: George and the boss, yea. Our relationship was good. He would yell at me and I would yell at him, it would never be in public. That’s what I was proud of, we kept a lot of our stuff, under covers so to speak, and I think we had a mutual respect for each other that made this thing work.
SIEGEL: Does it make it any harder to manage the Dodgers, to be so powerfully identified by your last job, and to have people, like me, so interested in your last job?
TORRE: Well, it was tough for me, I never envisioned myself leaving the Yankees and going anywhere else to manage. The Dodgers, you know, they’re one of those handful of organizations that you pay attention to. And when they expressed interest, I had a listen. And then I was just curious cause those last few years in New York were very tough on me, and I just was curious if I could have some fun again. However, there was a lot of pressure on me because even though I had a lot of World Series rings at this juncture, I still had to earn my keep and see if I could do it somewhere else. And it was very satisfying for me to – you know, it took a lot of time before the players felt comfortable and developed their personality. But it was a great deal of satisfaction for me to win there.
SIEGEL: Well, Joe Torre, thanks a lot for talking with us today.
TORRE: Thank you Robert.
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on Tuesday, February 3rd, 2009 at 6:05 pm by Sam Borden.
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Chad Jennings
Josh Thomson
Thanks for keeping it fresh, Sam.
I have to disagree about Moose. His bluntness was one quality I could live without.
Jeter is bland and vanilla, but he’s never had to backtrack and/or apologize to his teammates publicly (Alex, not Mo).
i dont noe if im the only one who greedy to me it feels so long ago that we sign sabathia burnett and texeira i want the yanks to sign manny and a bullpen arm like cruz
kinda funny coming from a so so big game player. get lostt mike, you crybaby.
pat (when you catch up!),
Thanks for the recap. So Damon’s spinning, too.
Doreen,
If you’re around, do you mind recapping what’s in the book about Damon? Is the word or any derivation of “depression” used?
I don’t expect any of the Yanks to have a passionate response either way towards Mussina’s comments.
He should not have said it. What’s the point? I appreciate players speaking their mind but I don’t really agree with a retired playing taking shots at his former teammates. In this case, that teammate is one of the classiest players to ever put on a uniform. If Mike wanted to say something about a guy like Gary Sheffield, a player who inserts himself into headlines all the time, that’s one thing. Leave a guy like Mariano alone.
Speaking against a class act HOF’er like Rivera isn’t going to make you look very good.
What Moose said was harsh but honest. If A-Rod and Pavano can take it, so can Mo.
Also might give a litle glimpse at the post 2000 Yankees being tired of being seen as the ones not able to get it done.
m –
I haven’t started yet – probably in about 20 minutes. But I am looking for certain things, and I absolutely will look for the precise word “depression” where Torre talks about Damon.
memo to mike his ps era 01 ws was over 4.00 and 04 alcs was over 4.00 pitch better mike
GB7,
Thanks for the recap. His explanation makes a lot of sense. I don’t know if I believe it in its entirety because it was made a big deal of at the time. He took a LOA from the team and I don’t recall any “Damon went home for family reasons” which would’ve been a convenient and legitimate excuse.
But I’ll trust the horse’s mouth before I trust the other end.
I agree with yanks fan.
Im tired of hearing how certain players e.g. arod arent clutch and cant get it done…over the past 8 years no one has gotten it done on a regular basis. I am the biggest Mo fan you will meet but when he failed to nail down game 4 Arod went from being ALCS MVP to goat who cant get it done in the clutch.
“What Moose said was harsh but honest. If A-Rod and Pavano can take it, so can Mo. ”
NYYFan,
Honest but maybe not accurate. Regardless, what good do Mike’s comments do? The only thing he could be doing is posturing himself for the HOF by saying he should have had some rings. Moose was a great pitcher and I don’t remember any Yankees ripping him in the media when he was losing games left and right a couple seasons ago.
Blaming Rivera is cowardly and just doesn’t make any sense.
The Mussina comments are true, the issue is what was said before the intalics embrassed the selected quotes….Is there any of us here that refutes what Mussina said….He’s the best ever, but he did hiccup a few times recently…..We had this discussion a few weeks ago…That’s it for me on this subject….As m stated, Spring Training cannot get heere soon enough
Damon and Beltran were just on the channel 4 news,
damon, looking mighty fine as usual i might just add, said he has never called arod a-fraud and that of course the “unamed plaer” that wanted him of the team was not named because then they would have to deal with him.
Beltran then said that he had no plan on giving anyone a discount, not even the yankees.
I’m sure Mo blames himself, too. But it still must hurt for others to say and write such things.
Mo will play with a chip on his shoulder (not in!).
Rivera was coming off an emotionally draining trip to Panama to bury his cousins, who were electrocuted while cleaning Rivera’s swimming pool. A father and son lost their lives in the accident. If anyone had an excuse to fail, Rivera did. He might not have had anything left.
Where’s Rebecca? A little early for spring break. I hope she didn’t stay at Barnes & Noble waiting for the story…
“As great as he is, and it’s amazing what he does, if you start the evaluation again since I’ve been here, he has accomplished nothing in comparison to what he accomplished the four years before. He blew the World Series in ‘01. He lost the Boston series. He didn’t lose it himself, but we had a chance to win in the ninth and sweep them and he doesn’t do it there. . . . That’s what I remember about the ‘04 series.””
mussina has never understood what being a yankee is all about. great ball player, extremely talented. really smart. but understand what drives jeter, mariano, or posada? i don’t think so.
mussina could have 50 more wins if he wasn’t woosina for so many years. his personal indulgence to not pitch inside because of once getting pummeled on the mound in baltimore after he threw at a hitter is just not acceptable .
he cost the himself and yankees a lot of wins with his wimpiness. i still have no idea why torre and the other yankees let him get away with this.
when finally told to pitch inside or go to the bullpen, he wins twenty . think how many more wins he could have won for the yankees with his talent. he wore the laundry and excelled at times, he wasn’t even close to being a real yankee.
so it doesn’t surprise me that he would say stuff like that about mo.but if it doesn’t bother mo, why should it bother me?
Techincally I blame Torre for the 2001 World Series lost, if he haven’t pull the infield in, we **would have** moaning about the quest for #28.
Mariano’s postseason numbers post-2001 are almost identical to his pre-2001 postseason numbers.
The fact remains, if Mussina and any of the other Yankees were perfect, the Yankees still win. It’s absolutely ridiculous to expect Mariano to be perfect when nobody else was. The only reason we even remember Rivera’s “hiccups” is because he was virtually perfect prior to them, and after them.
He’s basically saying “even though nobody else on the team, including myself, were far from perfect, I blame Rivera for being less than perfect.”
p.s. The Yankees scored just 2 runs on 6 hits in game 7 of the 01′ series. hardly perfect.
February 3rd, 2009 at 6:27 pm
GB7,
Thanks for the recap. His explanation makes a lot of sense. I don’t know if I believe it in its entirety because it was made a big deal of at the time. He took a LOA from the team and I don’t recall any “Damon went home for family reasons” which would’ve been a convenient and legitimate excuse.
But I’ll trust the horse’s mouth before I trust the other end.
————————————————————
Like I said, I believe this as during ST, so nobody would have missed him anywy. He lives in Miami or there abouts, so, maybe a thiry-forty minute flight. Damon didn’t seem terribly upset about it, so, I guess he assumed that was common knowledge. Damon may have played for Boston, but, he seems like his team mates are his teamates on whatever team that might be. I’ve never seen him say anything bad about anybody. I can’t dislike the guy, regardless of who he plays for. He has really done a great job, spent a lot of time, money and effort on the “Wounded Warrior” program. I don’t think he knows how to hate.
Ya, know, I could really do without the visual CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/
Randy I. be careful….Yeah, Mussina got rocked in game 1 in the 01 WS…And then Pettite got rocked in Game 6….There is enough blame to go around…And I too questioned the Infield being pulled right away that fateful night in Novemeber
“He also said he was planning to buy Torre’s book”
He has to BUY it? I would think Torre would hand deliver a signed copy for all Mariano did for him!
m
February 3rd, 2009 at 6:34 pm
I’m sure Mo blames himself, too. But it still must hurt for others to say and write such things.
Mo will play with a chip on his shoulder (not in!).
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It would be the use of the word “blow” that I have the issue with. Rivera screwed up when he through the ball into center field. The Yankees blew the series because they hit .183 in 7 games and made 8 errors icluding the last one. Just like in 2004 it was a complete team effort.
“The Yankees blew the series because they hit .183 in 7 games and made 8 errors icluding the last one. Just like in 2004 it was a complete team effort.”
thank you GB. The #s make it seem even more ridiculous for Moose to be singling one guy out.
pat m-
i hear you, but mussina irritated me more than any yankee player because he was so good and was such a woos.
i’m not even talking about any particular game. i just believe that baseball is a hard nosed game and that mussina’s attitude was inconsistent with championships.
all you had to do as a hitter was step up on the plate on him and cover the outside of the plate. he simply would not go in on a hitter until the last year.
he was so good he could still get hitters out, but why make the game so hard because of getting beat up on the mound at baltimore. did he ever once defend a yankee who was drilled on purpose?
that said ,he’s gone . good. i didn’t think they’d ever win with him on the team.
randy l
February 3rd, 2009 at 6:50 pm
gb7-
you’re not really insulted because i put you into the golf foursome are you? i figure nick might need a body guard if his sharp wit hits me wrong when i hit a ball ob or choke on a 3 foot putt.
how about you just come along to break up fist fights. you don’t actually have to play.
since we’re staying at sj’s house, he should play anyway. how’s that for a solution?
————————————————————
I wouldn’d be insulted to play golf with you guys if I was allowed to use a baseball bat to hit the golf ball….tos the ball in the air and let ‘er rip. I told you guys about the last time I played golf and what the golf pro at Ft. Hood, Texas told me.
Pat M, that 2001 WS was a carbon copy of the 1960 Series against Pittsburgh up through the 9th inning of game 7. NYY got bombed in three games and won 3 one run games. They were out hit, out pitched and out fielded and still had the series won….until the 9th inning.
Mussina took a cereberal approach to the game much like Maddox…However Maddox had the stones to come in when he needed to bust a bat….GB7, i remember that story quite well…..I’m rehabbing yet another knee cleaning..Should be cleared to hit the range in a week or so…..
gb7-
speaking of golf and baseball. i once had a nice lunch with ralph terry. maybe because mazerowki’s home run was the traumatic event of my childhood, i never brought up baseball. we chatted about golf. he was on the senior tour at the time. quite the gentleman.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo....._form.html
Thoughts? If this was posted before, I apologize.
I really love Moose’s candor in general, but he is way out of line with Mo. Mo blew game 7 of the 2001 WS, but he didn’t blow that series. As I recall, the Yankees were blown out in game 1,2 and 6…..As for 2004, gee Moose – was Mo to blame for what happened after game 4? Mo blew game 4, not the series. Someone on Kay’s show made a good point – did Moose make the comments AFTER or BEFORE Mo post-poned his shoulder surgery to lock down Moose’s 20th? LOL. Obviously the quote was said before, but the point stands. Mo is one of the classiest players ever to don a uniform – he’s revered around the game. Period, end of story. Moose? I like the guy, but he needs some cheese with that whine.
So Mussina won 250 games pitching woosy?
“So Mussina won 250 games pitching woosy?”
he got woosy after getting pummeled on the mound by a hit batter late in his career at baltimore.
i think mussina could have easily won 300 games if he pitched inside. he was as talented as any pitcher in the game.
Pat M, so you are ok with me using a baseball bat, huh? Great deal. I’ll still shank it.
Randy, the only thing I ever heard Terry mention about that game was that Stengel had him warming up in the 2nd inning, sat him down and had him up in every inning after that. He said he was totally gassed and told Houk and Jim Turner at the star of the 8th inning that he had absolutely nothing left. Terry was a Hell of a fine pitcher, and, realy took the heat for Stengel’s screwup. Everybody, including Matle had issues about Stengel not starting Ford in Game #1, because Stengel wanted him to open in YS. Ford would have started #1,#4 and #7.
I will give Mike the benefit of the doubt and assume he was trying to make an important point- you can’t judge a player based on “clutchness” over a short period of time. Even the most clutch post season player ever like Mo is going to fail in big spots and if you isolate those (rather than the team’’s) shortcomings it can be very unfair.
“So Mussina won 250 games pitching woosy?”
Moose was a great pitcher. period.
he just needs to smarten up when it comes to criticizing other players, specifically players who are far superior than he ever was.
Correction: including ***Mantle*** had issues
Gone are the days when a player or manager spoke up about true feelings while in uniform opposed to waiting when they hung up their cleats. It must be the fear of being traded, released, or scorned at.
got a freaking virus from your homepage, thanks a lot.
m
No problem. Consider it ST for transcribing the postgame for the YES-less.
Doreen
If you’re taking requests, when you get to Knoblauch, what was the context of “NY got the best of him. He found more things to do, more trouble.”
Signing Orlando Hudson makes a lot of sense, only if they traded Cano for Nate McLouth or someone like that, which ain’t gonna happen.
I hope Manny gets signed by someone soon, because if he toils out there for another couple weeks I think the Steinbrenners might get restless and make a push for him. I want no part of Manny in the Bronx.
Ralph Terry, goat in 60, hero & MVP of The World Series in 62…Roger Maris saved that series with his great play in right and his throw to hold Mays at 3rd..Then McCovery drills a seed right at Bobby Richardson……Some say he was actually out of position
Randy 1 u r 1 of the best posters on this blog. Perfect mix of humor, baseball facts, personal exp,and politics garnished w a little conspiracy theory. W
GB7, just want to apologize for our disagreement the other day. I was out of line and you had no way of knowing how offensive it is to me to be referred to in the same sentence as the RS.
I am about 3 minutes into the interview with Mike F. What a load he is.
I will get hurt this season. I must get hurt this season.
Boston Dave
February 3rd, 2009 at 7:30 pm
GB7, just want to apologize for our disagreement the other day. I was out of line and you had no way of knowing how offensive it is to me to be referred to in the same sentence as the RS.
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Not an issue. I was more or less teasing because Ray was on the board. I have zero issues with you or almost nobody else, Dave. It wasn’t meant as an insult. I probably stepped on the line or over it.
“Terry was a Hell of a fine pitcher”
yes he was. he went 16-3 and 23-12 in the next two years
he won two world series games in the 1962 san francisco series when McCovey hit the hardest ball in the history of baseball to richardson and stopped the hearts of every yankee fan watching.
“I’m not the one to get cute with…I’m tolerant and understanding…However I have little time for rubbish and the rantings of an adolesent….”
YAWN!
And if you have little time for rubbish I would recommend that you don’t bother with Torre’s book.
And, Dave thank you, but, no apologies were necessary, but, thank you. If it insulted you, I too am sorry. I insult guys like Randy…but, only because he likes Livan Hernandez…and, he’s easy. LMAO.
So let me get this straight — this is Joe Torre’s account of Mike Mussina’s comments about Mariano Rivera? And, presumably, comments that Mussina made to his manager in confidence (if he made them at all)?
Looks to me like it’s Torre’s own backhanded slap at Mo, and attempt to deflect blame from himself for the 2001 and 2004 losses. Stay classy, Joe.
randy l
February 3rd, 2009 at 7:36 pm
“Terry was a Hell of a fine pitcher”
yes he was. he went 16-3 and 23-12 in the next two years
he won two world series games in the 1962 san francisco series when McCovey hit the hardest ball in the history of baseball to richardson and stopped the hearts of every yankee fan watching.
————————————————————
Richardson said that he probably couldn’t have played in a game the next day because it left him with a deep bone bruise.
thanks GB7 – I absolutely misinterpreted it so no hard feelings. I enjoy your posts and I do recall your playful comments towards ray. i should have known.
anyway, we’re on the same team. go yanks!
pat m -
saw your post after i wrote mine. young yankee fans should go back and watch that series and how it ended. willie mays ,mantle, ford. marichal.
oddity: i just looked up the series and marichal only pitched 4 innings and don larsen won a game for the giants.
Are you talking about the Bill Haselman fight? Because that happened a long time ago (early 90’s I think) but the bottom line is that Mussina has had an exceptional
MLB career and you don’t win 270 games by pitching like you’re scared.
from wikepedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_McCovey
”
Two months after McCovey’s line drive that ended the 1962 World Series, the December 22, 1962 comic strip of Peanuts depicts Charlie Brown and Linus van Pelt brooding silently for three panels, before Charlie Brown finally shouts “Why couldn’t McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher?”. The next month, on January 28, 1963, Charlie Brown and Linus are again brooding before Charlie Brown exclaims “Why couldn’t McCovey have hit the ball even two feet higher?”
The more I hear this dolt talk the less respect I have for him.
(If you’re counting, that’s two old-school Yankees – Jeter and Rivera – deferring comment and one – Jorge Posada – defending Torre, in an interview with the Daily News down in Tampa).
———————
Gee, the three guys who Joe treated like gold and who he kept in a separate sect in the clubhouse didn’t speak out against him? Shocker.
Just when I thought I had finally blocked out the memory of the ‘01 WS. Damn you, Moose! (Kidding, I wish you were coming back.)
PAT M.
February 3rd, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Ralph Terry, goat in 60, hero & MVP of The World Series in 62…Roger Maris saved that series with his great play in right and his throw to hold Mays at 3rd..Then McCovery drills a seed right at Bobby Richardson……Some say he was actually out of position
————————————————————
LMAO. I thought that ball was going to drag him against the right center field fence. One thing that was never talked about much since then was the condition of Maris’ arm. He had torn something in his shoulder late in the season, so he got with Richardson and told him to come out into right field to get his throws because it hurt so bad, and he only had a couple of decent throws in him. Richardsonwould go out to shallow right even on the short flies to Maris and receive the balls. SF and Alvin Dark never caught on, or Matty Alou would have scored on that double.
That drive that Willie McCovery hit was a laser before they had lasers…..Willie never got out of the box…..But Roger’s play down the line and his quick throw in making the relay held Mays at third…..That was a great staff and with a wave of better arms knocking on the door…Downing, Bouton, Mel..etc…..
Oscar
Totally agree
Torre and the report card. What in the world is he talking about.
“Looks to me like it’s Torre’s own backhanded slap at Mo, and attempt to deflect blame from himself for the 2001 and 2004 losses. Stay classy, Joe.”
Yep.
Betsy, of course if someone hadn’t divulged what Moose said, nobody would be the wiser. What’s interesting is that the cryptmaster had no way of knowing that Moose was not returning. So his well-timed tome could have seen Moose and Mo having to return to spring training together and Moose having to answer a lot of questions about the comment.
And since the cryptmaster also divulged things about other players (Afraud anyone?) it also meant that these players would return to spring training and be queried on who supposedly said what, etc.
Stay classy Joe indeed.
He’s venegeful and nasty, but he’s not stupid. So this was what, his way of trying to stir up crap so that the team would be fractured and the world could once again say that Girardi was no Torre? No Torre indeed!
If you heard him on the FAN today, you would have loved the bobbing and weaving he did. The best of all is what I call the gift that keeps on giving: his polished rendition of “Well, Larry Bowa would say to him as a joke in batting practice, who’s going to show up today, Arod or Afraud?”
Just pathetic.
Maybe Mussina should talk about how he choked in the Detroit series since he’s so eager to toss the blame around.
Randy, My Thesis advisor in Grad School had that comic strip on his wall instead of his Phd.
We would sit in his office drink bad scotch and talk baseball for hours. The other candidates in my class never understood that baseball could mean so much to two people.
bronx jeers-
do you know the story behind mussina winning twenty in 2008 and the ultimatum he was given to pitch in or else by girardi ?
i think it’s safe to say if he could win 20 by pitching up and in with an 86 mph fastball that he could have won another 30 games in his career and maybe more if he would have pitched up and in his whole career.
i have no problem with pacifism . but if you want to be mahatma gandhi, don’t expect any world series rings.
Hey did you see the transcript Pete posted above?
THIS IS A RIOT!!!
Torre: The interesting part about the club house is the sanctity of the club house.
*THE SANCTITY OF THE CLUBHOUSE*
You know, a few days ago someone said that Torre and Jeter had something in common – they could both talk for hours and end up saying nothing.
A-flippin-men!
Well, guys, I’m midway through Chapter 2. Of course the book starts chronicling those “glory days” of the dynasty. I have to say, I am enjoying it so far. And so far it is pretty clear what’s from Torre and what is Verducci’s contribution via player interviews and chronicling the events.
” My Thesis advisor in Grad School had that comic strip on his wall instead of his Phd.”
he actually had the McCovey one ?
Patrick, but don’t you see that’s why the “sanctity of the clubhouse” is so important?
I am sure that many players have said things in anger or aggravation or frustration (like the rest of us humans) that they’ve maybe even regretted saying at a later date.
But the last thing they probably worry about is that their manager is going to go and sell them out.
Bad bad bad.
Stay classy Joe.
Other than Marichal, that ‘62 Gints pitching was an amazing patchwork of veterans…Jack sanford won 24, Billy O’Dell won 19 and Billy Pierce won 16 to go with Mrichal’s 18. Two future Cy Young winers on the team and none were Juan Marichal. I just don’t remember him getting hurt, though in that game 4.
does tricia ever shut up.anal retention
After readin this transcript I still have a problem that he hd to get PAID for doing the pre and post game on YES. This does not seem normal to me am I wrong here?
I would understand if he did the Joe Torre Show for example or his appearances on WFAN all athletes get paid for these types of appearaces but he had to get paid in order for the Yankees OWN network to ask the first question before and after the game? Why would he have to get paid for doing a press conference.
Someone please explain.
“does tricia ever shut up.anal retention”
Nah, part of my legal training probably. And what do you do for a living? Golf on the west coast?
See ya now PM!
TORRE: I don’t know if it’s a resentment in the locker room. He was a little different than the other guys I had. And the A-Fraud stuff was done in front of him, none of that stuff was behind his back.
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Someone needs to tell Joe to shut up and stop sticking his foot in his mouth. His book stated it was done BEHIND HIS BACK!!
Yup, He’s old timer from San Fran it was old and faded but there it was framed on his wall. He hated my Yankee hat.
He often said the happiest day of his life was oppening day 1958. To which another Prof of mine said that was the saddest day of his.
PAT M.
February 3rd, 2009 at 7:50 pm
That drive that Willie McCovery hit was a laser before they had lasers…..Willie never got out of the box…..But Roger’s play down the line and his quick throw in making the relay held Mays at third…..That was a great staff and with a wave of better arms knocking on the door…Downing, Bouton, Mel..etc…..
————————————————————
Ford, Terry, those three and the staff that could have been…Bill Stafford and Roland Sheldon
GB7,,As a kid I just rememeber all the rainouts in Candlestick…Oddly I was more in tune with the Series than the Cuban Missle issue…They used to show Helicopters hoovering above the field….
gayle -
Interesting. A little tidbit from the book so far. Torre was hired on a 3-year contract and after winning the WS in his first season was due to be paid $550,000 for 1997. He had a lunch with Steinbrenner and chided George that he now had won as many WS titles as Tony LaRussa, who was being paid far more. George tore up the contract and Torre signed a new one at $3.75 million over the next 3 seasons.
So, Mr. Torre is always “aware of” the money aspect.
Randy,
Hey I’m all for aggressive baseball as well but to me Mike was successful this year because he went to his off-speed stuff more and stopped trying to paint the corner every other pitch. I wouldn’t think he was scaring guys off the plate with his rather tame fastball.
To say he would have won an extra 1.5 wins per season if he pitched in more is like saying Yogi Berra could have had a 10 point jump in his career average if only he wasn’t such a free swinger. It’s nitpicking after the fact and sort of pointless when referencing a player who had great success.
tom -
that’s pretty wild it’s the same cartoon.
wikipedia is great for just following your nose on issues or people by clicking on links. that and baseball-reference.com are always open when i’m on lohud.
Jeter has spoken-
“I’m just curious as to why people keep asking the same questions over and over. We’ve been down this road before. Alex is a teammate. I support him. Our whole team is behind him. We all support him. And we’re looking forward to a new season. To be quite honest with you, it’s old hearing the same questions. It’s something that’s been addressed before in the past. Everyone’s moved beyond it. And it doesn’t really need to be addressed again.”
http://slidingintohome.blogspot.com/
About halfway down is Mo’s interview at the Garden from last night.
Bob Costas to MLB network:
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/11335258/rss
Wow that is the first time he’s said he supports him. But someone should tell him he should talk to Joe about having to address this again. If Mr. T didn’t write the book he wouldn’t have this question to ask.
SO i have to say i’ve read up to chapter 6 of the book so far and really enjoy it. I think what Torre did was wrong by violating the trust of some of his players but it does make for a great read. As a Yankee fan i think its a must read. The beginning of the book has only dealt with the good times so far and it makes me miss those days even more. I almost forgot how great of teams we had back then.
Im torn i want to bash torre for what he did but at the same time i love the fact that i can feel as though i know what went on inside the clubhouse, atleast from his perspective.
I know this has nothing to do with baseball, but its too funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txqiwrbYGrs
Pat, can you post the link please?
I honestly believe Jeter here – it was pretty obvious that he and A-Rod were getting along better last year than they had in years. Whatever is preventing him from coming out and out-right defending A-Rod, it’s not their personal relationship. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jeter called A-Rod about this, or maybe they just discussed it when they saw each other in the Bahamas. We aren’t necessarily privy to everything that does on in these guys’ lives…..
I appreciate that this is tough for Jeter, Posada, Mo and Andy because of their relationships with Joe. That said, I’m not sure what I think of Jorge’s comments. On the other hand, I just don’t think this will consume the players in ST. Do they think Alex is a diva? Maybe, but it doesn’t mean they don’t like him – and I do think Jeter is right: the worst part of this blew over a couple of years ago.
How many days to opening day ??
randy l
February 3rd, 2009 at 8:14 pm
tom – that’s pretty wild it’s the same cartoon.
wikipedia is great for just following your nose on issues or people by clicking on links. that and baseball-reference.com are always open when i’m on lohud.
————————————————————
Guys, I love that cartoon…love all of Schultz’ baseball cartoons. I just looked into one of the two Schultz books of his comic strips and it’s in there.
PAT M., I completely agree with your question.
What is all this fuss about Torre´s book about? Nothing!
But listen, if I were the Dodgers´owner, players and fans, I would be very angry to see how Torre wastes the valious time in which the Dodgers are paying him a fat salary to solve the next season, and the man is doing a circus that doesn´t benefit anybody, except himself.
Is it that the Dodgers, the Torre´s team, don´t have by now anything important to discuss with his manager concerning next season?
What a clown… What a desilussion to see the man, once our leader, converted in a monkey.
bronx jeers-
you really should look up the talks that girardi and eiland had with mussina to get the whole story of 2008.
why do you think his of speed stuff worked better? it was because he busted hitters in more. they didn’t sit on the outside corner.if they did they paid a penalty for it when he came in.
this isn’t rocket science and it’s not after the fact nitpicking. check the blog. i’ve said it for years that he was getting killed by not pitching inside. most pitchers say pick one side of the plate to hitters. one’s yours. one’s mine. mussina let them have both and still won all those games.
he just would have been way better had he taken one side of the plate as his and defended it with purpose pitches. he’s a borderline hall of fame pitcher right now.
had he pitched in like he did his last year, he’d be a lock.
from last thread
randy l – February 3rd, 2009 at 3:23 pm
“do you have any idea what torre could say if he wanted to? he gave out probably half of one percent of what he could say.”
“if he wanted to write a tell all that bashed the yankees, that would have been a totally different book.”
———————————————————-
Randy – In a group of threads overtaken by hatred and insanity, I want to say thank you for a bit of perspective.
It’s bad enough that these days, 99% of media news is agenda driven and usually promoting something, without so many people here buying into the garbage. For people to read what amounts to a few paragraphs from a 500 page book and react so violently, does not speak well of this audience.
As a HUGE Yankee and Mickey Mantle fan, I was pretty bummed out about the book ‘Ball Four’ at the time. And believe me, what Torre has said, can’t even be compared to what Bouton revealed about Mantle and other greats of the game… back in a MUCH more conservative time. But that book is now viewed as one of the most important books about baseball history.
Nothing Torre has said has been really bad. ARod being called names? This is NEWS to you folk? JDs problems were well documented last year. Public info. What’s the problem? Torre was disappointed and felt betrayed by Cashman is news to you people? It was discussed here, and on every blog, for weeks.
In terms of crimes and misdemeaners, what Torre said is barely worthy of a parking ticket. But OH!.. the righteous indignation.
How DARE Torre talk badly about the Yankees.
How DARE Torre betray ‘the’ trust.
The Yankees MADE Torre.
Frank Torre should STFU!
Really people. It’s a book written by Verducci, with Torre being his source of Yankee info, which is just a minor part of the book. People write books to sell books. People put names and pictures on books to help sell them.
This is small potatos. It will be forgotten by ST.
This team was owned by a madman who did many, many terrible things, including making illegal contributions to the Nixon (another lovely person) campaign, and was eventually BANNED from baseball. The team was literally considered a (Bronx) Zoo, and the butt of constant jokes. Nationally televised Yankee games were not as much about baseball, as a change for commentators to talk about crazy George and his madhouse.
From 1973 to 1996, over 23 years, the Yankees had TWENTY different managerial changes. Think of that. 20 changes in 23 years. Total insanity.
But for the last 12 years, it’s has been an admired and respected franchise. And hate him or not, if was Joe Torre, and nobody else, who totaly turned around the perception of the NY Yankees. What George, a dozen different managers and hundreds of millions of dollars couldn’t do… Joe Torre did.
Old ( grump, rude & mean )Yanksfan….Clear perspective and profound…Time aged wisdom at it’s best
Betsy
http://www.fannation.com/si_bl.....ref=fromSI
GB7,
I read some of your comments on golfing. I tried golfing about 10 years ago. I always thought it was an OLD MANS sport. The office I worked in was really into golfing weekly. So I came out once and said golf doesnt look easy and if I could hit a baseball a distance, I could hit a still golf ball. So they started a pool for and against me scoring less than 140 on 18. Long story short. I woke up at freeking 4 to go golfing(I thought getting some was the only thing worth waking up for before 6)and proceeded to lose the bet in the first hole. I have so much respect for you OLD guys that are good at it. GB, you should be the absolute best at it. I mean you are…
andrew-
that was too funny.
i liked the lines,” dad, you have four eyes” and ” am i going to stay like this?”
for a little comic relief, which we all could probably use, i highly ( no pun intended) recommend the site andrew posted.
where did you hear about Jeter making that statement?? I don’t see it anywhere on the internet.
Old Yankee,
Nobody is saying the players will lose sleep over it. If you can’t see how the book contradicts the “sanctity of the clubhouse” that Torre not only endorsed but demanded during his time with the Yankees, then you will never understand why fans feel betrayed.
Isn’t your post somewhat hypocritcal? You say yourself you were upset about the Mantle book when it came out. It doesn’t matter how your mind was changed over time. You don’t have the right to judge others immediate reactions to this occasion. You did the same thing. You are a fraud.
Gary:
http://www.fannation.com/si_bl.....ref=fromSI
Im expecting at any moment for Raul Mondesi to come out with a anti-Torre book here soon called “playing favorites”. With Ruben Sierra and Chad Curtis quotes in it of coarse. Its going to going to over take Torre on the top sellers list.
And hate him or not, if was Joe Torre, and nobody else, who totaly turned around the perception of the NY Yankees.”
nobody else? sure. I guess the hall of fame caliber players, all of whom are classy individuals and fierce competitors, had nothing to do with it.
Torre deserves plenty of credit for the Yankees during that period. It’s just a shame that he so willingly risked tarnishing such a great period in Yankee history for a few extra bucks.
“If you can’t see how the book contradicts the “sanctity of the clubhouse” that Torre not only endorsed but demanded during his time with the Yankees, then you will never understand why fans feel betrayed.”
don’t you mean, “If you can’t see how the book contradicts the “sanctity of the clubhouse” that Torre not only endorsed but demanded during his time with the Yankees, then you will never understand why the fans with the baseball IQ of a peanut feel betrayed.”
http://www.nypost.com/seven/02.....153392.htm
Pat, thanks!
Good quote by Jeter – everything is fine and dandy in Yankee-land. This will be a non-story as soon as the new guys arrive. That’s all anyone will care about, lol…….and that’s how it should be.
randy,
no, i didnt mean that at all. i am considering all yankee fans and understand why some, not all, feel betrayed…
…but your routinely insensitive nature and ignorance to the entire situation is duly noted.
“they didn’t sit on the outside corner.if they did they paid a penalty for it when he came in.”
Ok, I could never argue that pitching inside doesn’t lead to greater success on the outside corner but i just don’t agree that Mussina was afraid to pitch inside because of a brawl that happened 15 yrs ago.
Moose was always a stubborn guy who late in his career had trouble accepting the fact that his declining skills made it necesary to actually throw a pitch off the plate. I don’t think Mike believed in throwing a ball (as in not a strike) on purpose. Late in his career he had to.
He may have been a mule but I wouldn’t brand him a mouse.
S.o.S.
February 3rd, 2009 at 8:43 pm
GB7,
I read some of your comments on golfing. I tried golfing about 10 years ago. I always thought it was an OLD MANS sport. The office I worked in was really into golfing weekly. So I came out once and said golf doesnt look easy and if I could hit a baseball a distance, I could hit a still golf ball. So they started a pool for and against me scoring less than 140 on 18. Long story short. I woke up at freeking 4 to go golfing(I thought getting some was the only thing worth waking up for before 6)and proceeded to lose the bet in the first hole. I have so much respect for you OLD guys that are good at it. GB, you should be the absolute best at it. I mean you are…
————————————————————
LMAO. Let me tell you about my golf lessons. Back in 1967-68, somebody talked me into playing golf and suggested that I go down to the golf course on base at Ft. Hood, Texas. This was just before I went to Vietnam. I go out and start hitting golf balls on the driving range (brutal). after about a week of that, I got a chance to talk to the golf pro. We work (a lot of work) on things and then we went out on the course. This went on for 5 days a week for two weeks. He finally told me that I needed to fid another hobby, because #1….I was worse than not good, and #2…I was dangerous. He told me that I spent more time replacing divots than actually hitting the ball. He told me that I didn’t have enough time to learn to play (I thought he was talking about time, but, I suppose he meant in my life). Anyway, two weeks later, I got orders to go to Vietnam. I always suspected that the golf pro, SSG Orville Moody, had something to do with my going to Vietnam. Moody wone the US Open about a year later.
“…but your routinely insensitive nature and ignorance to the entire situation is duly noted.”
this is from someone who throws out : “you’re a fraud” as he ends a reply to old yanks fan?
you can apologize for that remark anytime you want.
it was totally uncalled for.
“And hate him or not, if was Joe Torre, and nobody else, who totaly turned around the perception of the NY Yankees.”
The Yankees made Torre,not the other way around. Correct me if im wrong but didnt Torre have a sub .500 record before coming to New York?
thanks randy!
“you can apologize for that remark anytime you want.
it was totally uncalled for.”
old yanks fan unnecessarily ripped into all posters on the board who are unhappy about the Torre book. Yet, he himself felt similarly after a comparable incident. I’m not going to pull direct quotes – you can read it yourself.
i cant remember ever saying anything to you randy, yet you felt the need to bring it down a level with this garbage:
“fans with the baseball IQ of a peanut”
Fans with less than 80 years of experience following the game be warned, randy l is smarter than you are.
bronx jeers-
i think mussina should in the hall of fame. he was that good.
if anyone has the details of the incident that mussina himself talked about, it’d be great to read it. i read him talking about it once and went aha!, now i understand why he pitches the way he does.
billy martin would not have let mussina pitch that way. nor would girardi. it’s ironic now that torre did .
Freekin hillarious GB!! I had people pissed off that they bet on me and lost all their monies in about 10 minute span. Hey at least you can go back to BINGO while I do the Al Bundy and brag about my past. Pretty sad aint it?
S.o.S.
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:07 pm
“And hate him or not, if was Joe Torre, and nobody else, who totaly turned around the perception of the NY Yankees.”
The Yankees made Torre,not the other way around. Correct me if im wrong but didnt Torre have a sub .500 record before coming to New York?
————————————————————
Yeah, but, take away those unGodly bad Mets teams and Torre did fine. John McGraw wasn’t going to win with those teams. They traded off his hitters, they traded off Seaver, Matlack, Gentry and anybody else of value. He won the NL West in Atlanta his first year after they finished last the year before. He went to St. Louis and took a last place team to second place in his first full year.
I wonder what th LA Dodger players and team officials are thinking right now?
They are gathered in Los Angeles attending a community caravan this week – visiting hospitals, local neighborhoods, and helping kids promote Jackie Robinson Day.
In fact today (Feb 3rd) the caravan visits the first of the two hospitals, City of Hope, that are partners in ThinkCure!, the innovative effort that accelerates collaborative research to cure cancer.
Their manager is in NY promoting a book of his time with his *previous* club – hearing the ching-ching of the cash registers each time one of his books is sold.
Getting richer or visiting cancer patients in the hospital with your present team this week? What would you do?
Yeah, Joe Torre made the right choice. Ching-Ching. $$$
““And hate him or not, if was Joe Torre, and nobody else, who totaly turned around the perception of the NY Yankees.”
The Yankees made Torre,not the other way around. Correct me if im wrong but didnt Torre have a sub .500 record before coming to New York?”
Torre was a huge part of their success. Still, it seems silly to me to say that “nobody else” from that era should receive the same praise.
boston dave-
tell you what . you take back , “you’re a fraud” that was uncalled for to old yanks fan.
i’ll take back , “fans with the baseball IQ of a peanut”
which was a response to that remark.
GB,
I assume the first place teams had much talent as the last place Mets didnt. With the talent that the Yanks had in those Dynasty years. Whats to say that a blind squirrell couldnt lead them to those titles?
Was it Phil Jackson who was key to the Bulls and Lakers titles or was it Mike,Scotty,Kobe and Shaq? A little of both, but more the players and the orginization bringing in the needed pieces to make it happen.
S.o.S.
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Freekin hillarious GB!! I had people pissed off that they bet on me and lost all their monies in about 10 minute span. Hey at least you can go back to BINGO while I do the Al Bundy and brag about my past. Pretty sad aint it?
————————————————————
LMAO. Yeah, the thought of Moody coming back from the dead and beating me with one of his drivers has kept me off of the golf course ever since. God only knows where I’d end up.
“To be quite honest with you, it’s old hearing the same questions.” -Jeter
About as old as hearing the same answers for the last 13 years no matter what the question was. -Yankee fans
“Anyway, two weeks later, I got orders to go to Vietnam. I always suspected that the golf pro, SSG Orville Moody, had something to do with my going to Vietnam. Moody wone the US Open about a year later.”
too funny. really good golfers hate to watch ugly swings because they think it gets into their swing. it sounds like a few more weeks of lessons with you and moody could have kissed that us open trophy good bye.
Randy I,
Yeah I’d say he could make it based on numbers combined with the when & where factor. Albeit his 1st yr of eligibility is dicey as he’ll have Maddux next to him on the ballot. Yikes!
“About as old as hearing the same answers for the last 13 years no matter what the question was. -Yankee fans”
Oh that’s golden Jerry. Golden!
“God only knows where I’d end up.”
GB,
Its good that you didnt insist on him continuing to teach you. If he had something to do with you being shipped out, I think you would have been in Siberia after.
I went golfing once. I hit the ball sideways, seriously it went left, and that was that and I never went again.
I played baseball in high school (was recruited by a d2 school to play, but blew out my knee (ACL) breaking up a double play) but could not hit that stupid golf ball.
what is the groups take on the Rich Hill trade
S.o.S.
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:23 pm
GB,
I assume the first place teams had much talent as the last place Mets didnt. With the talent that the Yanks had in those Dynasty years. Whats to say that a blind squirrell couldnt lead them to those titles?
Was it Phil Jackson who was key to the Bulls and Lakers titles or was it Mike,Scotty,Kobe and Shaq? A little of both, but more the players and the orginization bringing in the needed pieces to make it happen.
————————————————————
Torre has worked for some really difficult owners, though. Donald Grant was the head of the Mets and knew less about baseball than Trisha. He started trading off players because the Payson family wanted to sell the Mets when Joan Payson died. Then he got to work for Ted Turner, who knew nothing but boating, but meddled in baseball more than George Steinbrenner. After that, the Cards were owned by Augie Busch, but, he died the year before and the son kept Torre on until the Cards were sold to Bill Dewitt.
Why do golfers have to fake swing(no club in hand)anywhere and everywhere? You dont see a baseball player pretending to swing a bat or pitch at work. A basketball player fake shooting, a football player pretending to pass. ONLY IN GOLF.
Watching a bad swing reminds me of one Mr.Gardner…Yanks made Joe Torre..Yeah that has merit
GB,
“Its good that you didnt insist on him continuing to teach you. If he had something to do with you being shipped out, I think you would have been in Siberia after.”
GB in Siberia……that thought brings a smile to my face.
Just harassing you a little GB.
randy l
tell you what . you take back , “you’re a fraud” that was uncalled for to old yanks fan.
i’ll take back , “fans with the baseball IQ of a peanut”
LOL… so NOW Randy is getting sensitive about an “A-Fraud” comment? Where was my favorite bullpen catcher’s A-Fraud indignation all last week?
randy l
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:26 pm
“Anyway, two weeks later, I got orders to go to Vietnam. I always suspected that the golf pro, SSG Orville Moody, had something to do with my going to Vietnam. Moody wone the US Open about a year later.”
too funny. really good golfers hate to watch ugly swings because they think it gets into their swing. it sounds like a few more weeks of lessons with you and moody could have kissed that us open trophy good bye.
————————————————————
I bet he had nightmares for months after I left, though. Had the Army only known, I could have wiped out the Viet Cong and NVA single handedly if the had supplied me with enough golf balls and a driver. That’s the only thing I ever hit was windows and other people.
Hill at best could be a solid #3 guy. At worst he’d be Daniel Cabrera part 2.
‘Watching a bad swing reminds me of one Mr.Gardner”
it’s painful on the eyes to watch. gardner must be a really good athlete to hit that ball as well as he does with that swing.
the yankees, if he plays much, should instruct all players to look anywhere but at his swing during games.
Its degenerating to an “I know you are but what am I” mentality around here, lol – from people twice my age.
Ack.
ray (sox fan)
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:39 pm
GB,
“Its good that you didnt insist on him continuing to teach you. If he had something to do with you being shipped out, I think you would have been in Siberia after.”
GB in Siberia……that thought brings a smile to my face.
Just harassing you a little GB.
————————————————————
Careful, Ray. I’ve been saving my best zingers for crunch time.
Gardners swing cant be worse than watching Craig Counsel wait for a pitch. That funky hirky jirky stance killed my eyes in the Series.
I think he rejected 25 mil from the Dodgers but I think he would take the same 25 from the Yanks/Mets thats just my opinion. Also great job filling in by Sam.
S.o.S.
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Why do golfers have to fake swing(no club in hand)anywhere and everywhere? You dont see a baseball player pretending to swing a bat or pitch at work. A basketball player fake shooting, a football player pretending to pass. ONLY IN GOLF.
————————————————————
Are you kidding? Haven’t you ever seen Paul O’Neill in between pitches…while he was playing in the outfield? Ted Williams used to do that all the time.
“i’ll take back , “fans with the baseball IQ of a peanut”
That’s confusing. Did you not mean it when you said it?
“Are you kidding? Haven’t you ever seen Paul O’Neill in between pitches…while he was playing in the outfield? Ted Williams used to do that all the time.”
I thought he was practicing his golf swing. Ill take it back then even though i meant it.
I was reading a couple pages of Torre’s book in the store (I’m not planning on buying it) – and I was struck by a snippet on page 257 that I hadn’t seen quoted anywhere.
It said that in 2006 at the height of the ARod bashing Cashman asked Torre to ask Jeter to publicly support ARod to get the fans off his back and Torre REFUSED to do it. Torre said he wasn’t going to ask Jeter to do anything that he didn’t want to do anyway.
I can’t believe that no one else finds that passage as mind-blowing as I do. Cashman, the GM, asks the manager to have the Captain of the team make a public remark in support of his teammate, and Torre won’t do it?
Anyone who was following the team that year could see that all the booing was making things worse for ARod. If you cared about the team at all, wouldn’t you do anything you could to help stop it? And even if you didn’t think having Jeter say something would help, wouldn’t the fact that the GM thinks it would help mean that you should at least give it a try?
Can we just send Torre, and his book, to Siberia?
S.o.S.
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:55 pm
“Are you kidding? Haven’t you ever seen Paul O’Neill in between pitches…while he was playing in the outfield? Ted Williams used to do that all the time.”
I thought he was practicing his golf swing. Ill take it back then even though i meant it.
————————————————————
Nah….especially after a bad at bat. Luckily he never got caught between pitches. I used to laugh, because you could see him yelling at hmself on camera in the outfield. He tells some great stories about things his wife said about his temper tantrums.
Randy, At least when he came back up in September, his stroke looked a bit better….I’m guilty as several here have been for getting testy and overly frustrated with the lack of openmindiness….The refusal to at least see another perpective is like fingernails on a chalkboard…It has not brought out the finer elements that the many bring to this forum…There will always be the annoying whiners who are just a pain to deal with…However for the most part this is a good place…Too much in fighting
dt
read old yanks fan 8:36 comment and see if you boston dave’s response to it was called for:
“Isn’t your post somewhat hypocritcal? You say yourself you were upset about the Mantle book when it came out. It doesn’t matter how your mind was changed over time. You don’t have the right to judge others immediate reactions to this occasion. You did the same thing. You are a fraud.” – boston dave
i didn’t and i don’t.
“He tells some great stories about things his wife said about his temper tantrums.”
Yeah it was pretty funny watching him go off on himself. He should write a book about his tantrums. Id buy that for a dollar.
Good night fellas.
“However for the most part this is a good place…Too much in fighting”
pat m-
have you noticed no trolls. they wouldn’t dare enter while we’re all ripping each other apart.lol
i think of our infighting as just sparring to getting ready for the real enemy- red sox fans.
Clare
February 3rd, 2009 at 9:59 pm
It said that in 2006 at the height of the ARod bashing Cashman asked Torre to ask Jeter to publicly support ARod to get the fans off his back and Torre REFUSED to do it. Torre said he wasn’t going to ask Jeter to do anything that he didn’t want to do anyway.
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It does give a lot of credence to what Michael Kay has said about Torre carrying a grudge or the depths he would go if he didn’t like you. I also says a lot about Jeter’s ability to be a leader/captain to not take it on his own to say something in the press, especially after publically backing Giambi, Sheffield and Clemens.
Do the Yankees have a minor league hitting instructor? Somebody who can teach these kids how to use their legs when the swing…
Who’s your breakout prospect for the upcomming season.
I’ll chose Brad Suttle. I think we’ll see some good progress made by him this year.
PAT M.
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Randy, At least when he came back up in September, his stroke looked a bit better….I’m guilty as several here have been for getting testy and overly frustrated with the lack of openmindiness….The refusal to at least see another perpective is like fingernails on a chalkboard…It has not brought out the finer elements that the many bring to this forum…There will always be the annoying whiners who are just a pain to deal with…However for the most part this is a good place…Too much in fighting
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It has annoyed me that Gardner and for that matter, Cabrera didn’t try bunting for a hit at least once a game. They could do so much damage to the pitchers because both are good base runners and base stealers.
I put much of the blame for things like base running and bunting failures on the front office for not spending a couple hundred thousand dollars more to put a couple more coaches in the minor league levels to help teach these young kids. The lower levels are where they are realy needed, and then the traveling coaches could go through and check for flaws and help polish them.
Page 257..That has to be half the book..Clare you read very fast….Jeter’s plea to the media and the fans wouldhave just opened the flood gates on A-Rod…Yes he did publically supported Giambi, but I never thought at the time # 13 would want Jeter to come to his rescue…I’ll leave it at that….
“Can we just send Torre, and his book, to Siberia?”
I agree all this hoopla is bad for the team especially a week before Spring Training. Torre should go live in a Gulag with Verducci and a 2 month supply of Bigelow tea.
randy l
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:05 pm
dt
read old yanks fan 8:36 comment and see if you boston dave’s response to it was called for.
Does it make a difference if he said it behind his back or to his face?
Maybe there is more to it then we know. I don’t really want to comment on it until I read Boston Dave’s book. I could take it out of context.
I don’t expect you to understand Randy – it’s something only us non-professional ball players can comprehend.
Tom, I’m hoping that it’s Carmen Angelini, Seth Fortenberry and Colin Curtis. Those three have a chance to be really solid/good players. Suttle will never be much of a defensive third baseman. I figure that he’ll end up playing a little 1st and 3rd, but, he’s really just a DH. Great bat potential, but, just too stiff on defense….hands like a rock and scatter armed.
Clare,
Let me start by saying that booing a player on your own team is never acceptable. But, A-rod knew what New York was like. He knew that the fans were tougher on him than the other players. He knew all that, and he chose to come back after opting out. So he’s fine with it, and can obviously play through it-when he’s not dreaming about leaving his wife for Mother Madonna.
I’m not saying he deserves to get booed, and I truly do feel sorry for the guy. But I don’t lose sleep over it. At some point, A-rod will (and I think he already has) figure out that his opinion about himself is the only one that matters.
In case you didn’t see this (apologize if this is old news). Contrary to some west coast thinking, I spend the majority of my time away from this blog. Of course if there is an issue that interests me I will do the best to get in as much as I can in the time I am here.
“Derek Jeter spoke to SI.com today and fully backed teammate Alex Rodriguez, who has taken more heat since it was revealed in Joe Torre’s new book that the third baseman was nicknamed “A-Fraud” by teammates.”
“We’ve been down this road before. Alex is a teammate. I support him. Our whole team is behind him. We all support him,” Jeter told Jimmy Trania is an interview that will be posted in full tomorrow.
“To be quite honest with you, it’s old hearing the same questions. It’s something that’s been addressed before in the past. Everyone’s moved beyond it. And it doesn’t really need to be addressed again.”
Awww Joe. Nobody’s taking the bait! Tch tch tch. Tarnished your saint Joe image and you’re loaded with egg.
The more I think about it, I’ll just go ahead and retract my send Torre to Siberia quote. I don’t want to give him the credibility that other literary giants like Solzhenitsyn or Dostoyevsky.
GB, I look forward to your scouting reports this summer…As to the Yankee instructional program…..Where have all the coaches gone ????
randy l,
We haven’t had trolls since all the signings.
Fear of the Yankee dominance this season is keeping them at bay, not fear of us.
I’d think, though, that they’d find us quite entertaining.
GB, It would be great if a SS or an outfielder not named Jackson has a breakout season.
I picked Suttle because I like his bat, or to be more precise, I like what I have read about his bat.
Tom
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:27 pm
The more I think about it, I’ll just go ahead and retract my send Torre to Siberia quote. I don’t want to give him the credibility that other literary giants like Solzhenitsyn or Dostoyevsky.
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Don’t forget about those great books by Groucho Marx.
God Bless ya, Buddy Holly.
From Jeter’s S.I. interview concerning A Rod:
“”To be quite honest with you, it’s old hearing the same questions. It’s something that’s been addressed before in the past. Everyone’s moved beyond it. And it doesn’t really need to be addressed again.”"
And that in a nutshell sums up Torre’s book. Other than cashing in on a one time huge paycheck at the expense of his reputation,there was no reason for Joe Torre to write about his former players.
If the Yanks do sign Orlando Hudson they should give him #6. Roy White wont mind.
2009 ESPY for Joe Torre….
dt-
if you think experience is over rated, next time you have surgery ,go to someone who watches a lot.
PAT M.
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:28 pm
GB, I look forward to your scouting reports this summer…As to the Yankee instructional program…..Where have all the coaches gone ????
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That’s what kills me, Pat. They pour all of this money into these kids and then have two coaches and a manager. A hitting coach, pitching coach and manager. They have no trainers. Tyson does a good job down in Charleston (what out for this guy…he’s good), but, nobody to work with the catchers or outfielders. Tyson uses players as base coaches a lot, but, he should have them on the bench, explaining things to them. Remember when Cardinal and Patterson and Chambliss and all of these guys were floating through the system teaching kids. You don’t see that any more. Imagine having kids get taught about pitching like Lyle or Dennis Rasmussen or hitting and bunting by Bucky Dent or Mickey Rivers, playing the outfield by Shane Spencer or Roy White would do on some of these teams. Bring in some recently retired Yankee players…solid players…not stars…ones that could use a job and wants to get back into coaching.
m,
I don’t disagree at all. I think after the 2006 season ARod stopped trying to please the media, or Jeter or Torre (another bit from the book – Torre didn’t invite ARod to his benefit dinners).
Bur that doesn’t make it any better that Torre refused to do what Cashman thought might help ARod and the team, because of how he felt about both Jeter and ARod.
“Fear of the Yankee dominance this season is keeping them at bay, not fear of us.”
mel-
i don’t know, we’ve been pretty scary lately. i think we as a fan base are ready for action.
time for the drills to end and the season to begin.
Randy, I think that by and large you are a kindred spirit (and I know you played pro ball – in fact you are the only one I believe played pro ball on this forum, despite others “suggesting” they had done so, but that’s a story for another day.)
But when you find yourself on the extremely short end of this Torre debate and actually have very little support for your side (I think there are all of three of you holdouts here) – and that includes with columnists who before would have fallen on their swords for Torre – is it really right to call others of us “fans with the baseball IQ of a peanut?” because we find something odious about a manager betraying the trust of former players by telling tales of what they said in the sanctity (so they thought) of their safe place – the clubhouse, when the press wasn’t around?
Just sayin’
interesting interview tonight with Johnny Damon at the Thurman Munson dinner tonight.
http://podcast.wfan.com/wfan/1567328.MP3
of course he is asked about Torre and his book – but there are other items as well. Who knew Damon has known Arod since he was 14?
“What a clown… What a desilussion to see the man, once our leader, converted in a monkey.”
I know you weren’t meaning to be funny but it struck me funny. Sorry.
I PRAY that number 6 is assigned to some Yankee player this season. I PRAY that happens.
“memo to mike his ps era 01 ws was over 4.00 and 04 alcs was over 4.00 pitch better mike”
do you even remember the 2004 ALCS?
Moose pitched great. he took a perfect game into the 7th inning of game one, then tired a little and gave up a few runs (they were winning 8-0), one of which Sturtze let score on a HR.
in game 5 he went 6 IP, 2 ER, in Fenway.
sometimes you need to dig deeper than ERA.
Moose was great that series.
The interview link above is from WFAN. I thought I was just inserting the link address – didn’t mean to imbed it.
“The more I think about it, I’ll just go ahead and retract my send Torre to Siberia quote. I don’t want to give him the credibility that other literary giants like Solzhenitsyn or Dostoyevsky.”
Tom:
Excellent.
Tom
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:30 pm
GB, It would be great if a SS or an outfielder not named Jackson has a breakout season.
I picked Suttle because I like his bat, or to be more precise, I like what I have read about his bat.
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Make no mistake about it…he’s got a big bat. He gives something that’s needed…a switch hitter with power from both sides. He strikes out too much right now, though.
Watch out for Brandon Laird, too. He’s been really good….but…man…what a beautiful swing with power….high line drives. When he hits it, it stays hit.
“And hate him or not, if was Joe Torre, and nobody else, who totaly turned around the perception of the NY Yankees.”
The Yankees made Torre,not the other way around. Correct me if im wrong but didnt Torre have a sub .500 record before coming to New York?
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Dude… Do you believe what makes Torre special is a winning managerial record? You are mssing the point. This isn’t about winning or losing. Mattingly never won a ring, but that doesn’t make him any less of a player. Believe it or not, there is more to baseball then just winning or losing.
When I starting following the Yankees, they were a terrible team. For years, my dream was for them to have a .500 record. The Yankees wins during Joe’s tenure is not what impresses me about Torre.
And the Yankees had some pretty decent guys during the Zoo years. Donnie and Thurman come immediately to mind. But nonetheless, the organization, and George, were out of control. The Yankees were a joke. They alienalted many fans, including myself.
I followed the team, but like many fans, could not respect the organization, and was embarrassed by it. For 2 decades. Right up until ‘Clueless Joe’ was dumb enough to take a managerial job from George Steinbrenner in 1995.
Clare,
You’re right. But so was Torre. No sense even ask Torre.
Of course Jeter is wrong, but whatcha gonna do? Can’t force him to like someone. I’m sure he was cordial enough, but I don’t think Jeter tried to torture Alex or anything.
oops. no sense ask Jeter.
GB, Th eDodgers always utilized their retired players and started them out in the Sally Leagues and work themselves up the system….Gene Michaels implemented the same thought process in the early 90’s when the entire organization was being revamped while George was once again sent packing by MLB and the Feds…..When Cashamn gain total control that all but disappeared……….Twins are the best model in todays game…And the Angels are right behind them ( Dodgers mentality )
♣
GB7
That’s what kills me, Pat. They pour all of this money into these kids and then have two coaches and a manager. A hitting coach, pitching coach and manager. They have no trainers
Summed up my feelings exactly. For a development system to let Gardner go through all the levels without adjusting his swing is criminal. This is where Management is really spitting the bit. It’s fine to focus on drafting but do something to develop these kids.
The one good thing I see coming out of this book is that I agree with Cashman that this will galvanize the team as opposed to the opposite. Also, the fact that Moose isn’t coming back takes away that crap stick that Torre tried to throw out there. The team will rally around Arod, so the rest will be a tempest in a teapot.
So all that Torre is left with is a team in LA that will likely adhere to the “silence is golden” maxim and will likely eschew the “I am your friend” BS that Torre tries to perpetrate as part of his aura and see him as a fraud and a phony.
And oh yeah – according to Bill Madden, Mr. Sincere who really wanted the world to know about his 12 years with the Yankees, and really wanted to explain what it was like to have championship teams, you know the entire picture, didn’t even mention Willie or Lee Marzilli in the book. That’s according to Madden. I guess he was so busy getting out the “important” details he wanted to share that he plum forgot that Willie and Marzilli were part of the mix.
Jerk.
“They pour all of this money into these kids and then have two coaches and a manager. A hitting coach, pitching coach and manager.”
gb7-
you’re right. when you go into a triple a locker room on the road you see a manager, a pitching coach, hitting coach and a trainer.
the gap from the major leagues to the minors is astounding. it is really minimalist at the minor league level. the pay to most coaches is really low.
with the resources the yankees have, one way to speed up the development process would be to pour money into the minor league system and pay coaches more, create more positions, get more trainers,performance coaches, etc, improve the technology too, computers , video, etc.
basically go first class. it’s not like that now.
Rosenthal has an interesting take on Torre throwing Cashman “under the bus”
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9167218/Torre’s-book-targets-Cashman,-too
Cash chats team not books
http://www.courant.com/sports/.....8958.story
People – It’s for posts like these that I come here. Experience, knowledge and reason. It’s like panning for gold, wade through the muck to find some shining bits. In a word “awesome”.
DT – great read.
Not oddly, Rosenthal’s take is a microcosm of what just about every other sports columnists is saying about Torre’s self-serving tell all.
Thanks for the links DT and pat
What a refrshing departure from all the BS…It all changed once BO Knows arrived on the scene tonight….I agree Bo , this is when this place is at it’s finest….Hey, what ever happened to Finest First National Super Markets, A&P, Grand Union ??? Haven’t thought about those stores in over 30 years…
randy l
February 3rd, 2009 at 11:01 pm
“They pour all of this money into these kids and then have two coaches and a manager. A hitting coach, pitching coach and manager.”
gb7-
you’re right. when you go into a triple a locker room on the road you see a manager, a pitching coach, hitting coach and a trainer.
the gap from the major leagues to the minors is astounding. it is really minimalist at the minor league level. the pay to most coaches is really low.
with the resources the yankees have, one way to speed up the development process would be to pour money into the minor league system and pay coaches more, create more positions, get more trainers,performance coaches, etc, improve the technology too, computers , video, etc.
basically go first class. it’s not like that now.
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I know that the Charleston team almost always goes by chartered bus, but, it seems to me that they should invest in buying them/leasing them and having videos installed…the managers/coaches throw in some tapes, go over finer points or flaws and talk about the games. That’s a major reason that young players don’t know things now…they never talk baseball. The Yanks have 5 minor league teams that travel any distance and really, only two (Charleston and Scranton) that travel long. Charleston is the one I know best, but, Tyson has those kds working hard, but, you’re talking three guys working with 17-20 kids. You have one pitching coach and two catchers. Things like holding runners gets skipped. Same with bunting. Everybody on those teams should have at least 5 sac bunts a year….just so they know what to do. Tyson is a former infielder, but, he’s got 6 raw infielders and it’s hard to work them all.
Pat M
A & P is still around including the coffee grinder.
Damn GB all these kudos for information is warping my psyche. It’s a long way from the “Sporting News” once upon a time. Now another beef – Four levels of minors and One, one OF, Oppenheimer the genius, excuse me. Pitching, a Catcher or two, a couple of 2B and filler. Thirty percent of position player are OF, one high level prospect. It is to weep.
Jeter wanted a new question? Done. Bet a reporter has never asked him a question with the word “bong” in it before and he’s probably not often asked about the economy. WARNING: Obligatory book question included.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/29005306
GP,
Read paragraph 4 in Rosenthal’s article linked above. And then e-mail the same comment you always post here about Torre not having a bullpen.
Doesn’t matter if it was a good pen or not, he still mismanaged it.
Pat, thanks for the heads up….I remember their Strawberry jam, Anne Parker ???? However as a kid, it was Finest First National in Bronxville that I recall
As silly and simplistic as it sounds, every minor leaguer in the system should be issued a set of Tom Emansky discs on baseball. You come to spring training and every day, it’s a full day of that lesson and before exhibition games start, you do the complete course.
Hell, I’d go so far as pushing it to the major league level.
Take that, you former pros. We peanut brains have spoken….or, at least I have.
j/k, Randy.
“Randy, I think that by and large you are a kindred spirit (and I know you played pro ball”
trisha-
i was a bullpen catcher. not a pro player. big difference. really big difference.
” when you find yourself on the extremely short end of this Torre debate and actually have very little support for your side (I think there are all of three of you holdouts here) …. is it really right to call others of us “fans with the baseball IQ of a peanut?”
no, that was directed directly at boston dave for saying something he shouldn’t have.
as far as only three or so of us on bothering to support torre, that doesn’t concern me in the least. i figure that’s all we need : )
i think torre’s time was up with the yankees as manager, but i also think cashman’s was too.
but i think both should have stayed in the organization. i think the strongest organizations keep their good people in the organization and bring in fresh people without losing the wisdom of experienced people who have been bumped up. gene michaels is a good example of someone who stayed in an organization and passed on the torch.
who’s in the organization now who is the equivalent of michaels moving through the system? cashman in his insecurity has removed anyone with any talent who’s a threat to his job.
Don’t upset the peanuts.
Mr. Peanut has a brain. A big head too. Not as big as Mr. Met or Michael Kay, but nothing to sneeze at.
With that monocle, cane and top hat he’s a regular chick magnet.
Pat M
Building is still there but it’s an A&P now.
I live just a few miles away. When were you last in Bronxville? No more Town Tavern but everything else about the same.
Pat M
Agree with you on Gardner. I was surprised how much his swing improved in such a short time. I have high hopes for the kid this year. Mmmm defense. For all the ones that have gone before, my favorite quote. “Two thirds of the world is covered by water, the other third by Mathews”.
GB, It was standard practice that before your bp hacks, you had to drop three down the firstbase , thirdbase, and back to the mound ( mid-way )….Every failed attempt meant that after practice it was an extra ten miuntes of bunting…This held true in AA West Haven….Fines were not uncommon for poor excution…Cox was fanatical about fundamentals…He drilled them into you at he A level, so he had no patience when you ran into him later….
Damn this is good. More, More. Applause, Applause.
(A thundering ovation from the peanut section)
Pat I was there in September..In fact I always catch a movie there…Saw Women last time there…Not a single man in the entire movie…I love going to some of the little Bistro’s….I think one of the first Baskins & Robbins open there, not far from Sarah Lawerence hospital….I love Bronxville, even though I stay in Pelham when I go back….
PAT M.
February 3rd, 2009 at 11:38 pm
GB, It was standard practice that before your bp hacks, you had to drop three down the firstbase , thirdbase, and back to the mound ( mid-way )….Every failed attempt meant that after practice it was an extra ten miuntes of bunting…This held true in AA West Haven….Fines were not uncommon for poor excution…Cox was fanatical about fundamentals…He drilled them into you at he A level, so he had no patience when you ran into him later….
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I remember going to games in the early 60s in Chicago and Detroit. NYY would come out for fielding practice and batting practice…everybody bunted. Everybody knew that the best bunter in baseball was Mantle. Surprisingly, Maris was almost as good, and, that guy could run like a deer. They’d lay a beer cup out there and try bunting a ball into the cup, and damned if they didn’t usually get at least two of five in the cup. Now, they take one..maybe two, half hearted attempts and start wailing away at the seats. Mantle, Maris and Tresh would call their shots as to what field they would hit to. They weramazing. Pepitone just shook his hed and launched them into the upper deck. He never learned the subtle things. God, could he play first base, though. He also played a great cnter field for two years that Mantle played first. Maris was a spectacular center fielder.
Yeah GB, Pepi was a great talent…His story about the Mick and himself getting hammered the night before the Copperstown exhibition game was one for the books….Apparently, after a night on the town, they missed the bus …Mantle lived at the Plaza back then, so they get a limo to take them up to Copperstown and they hit the Limos wet bar and get feeling quite good…As the limo gets to the park they’re getting dressed and Mantle orders the driver to drive right up to the dugout….Houk makes them both play, hung over , half tanked…Mantle drills one over the rightfield fence and Houk tells Mick take the rest of the day off…Pepi thinks he’ll get s free pass after his AB….Houk makes him play for 6 innings as a punishment for not looking after the Mick….” Joe you could have made us proud “” Great reading….Hell, and they think Torre’s novel is out of bounds…..
PAT M.
February 4th, 2009 at 12:04 am
Yeah GB, Pepi was a great talent…His story about the Mick and himself getting hammered the night before the Copperstown exhibition game was one for the books….Apparently, after a night on the town, they missed the bus …Mantle lived at the Plaza back then, so they get a limo to take them up to Copperstown and they hit the Limos wet bar and get feeling quite good…As the limo gets to the park they’re getting dressed and Mantle orders the driver to drive right up to the dugout….Houk makes them both play, hung over , half tanked…Mantle drills one over the rightfield fence and Houk tells Mick take the rest of the day off…Pepi thinks he’ll get s free pass after his AB….Houk makes him play for 6 innings as a punishment for not looking after the Mick….’’ Joe you could have made us proud “” Great reading….Hell, and they think Torre’s novel is out of bounds…..
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Pepitone, Tresh and Linz all idolized mantle. They told stories, but, they told them about each other and they all did it. Boyer was as bad as they were, and I think that’s why they traded him to Atlanta. They thought he was anothebad influence on Mantle. Little did they now that the player they got back drank more than Boyer did and had half the talent.
I loved Tommy Tresh..Man he had so much gooing for himself, then in a spring training game vs. Detoit he jumps a short fence in Lakeland and tears up his knee….When I first went there in the Florida St. League, I went over to that fence and just reflected on how a great career was over in a second…..