Today in The Journal News (and yesterday from Tampa)
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Feb 04, 2009 
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Brian Cashman spent two hours talking to an audience in Pleasantville last night but wouldn’t comment on Joe Torre’s book. Josh Thomson has the story, and there are some interesting nuggets in there about Cashman’s history (his last job before interning with the Yankees was as a delivery guy for UPS).
Chien-Ming Wang threw off the mound for the first time this year yesterday in Tampa. All went well and the Wanger joined Jorge Posada among players taking part in early Florida workouts. Derek Jeter has also been seen, as per usual, getting some swings in.
Lastly, I wrote a column about Torre in today’s paper, arguing that the issue of whether he violated the “sanctity of the clubhouse” is essentially a moot point because the entire notion of privacy has changed so much in our time. Judging by the comments in recent days, I sense that may be an unpopular opinion around here but I’m open to discussion.
I don’t disagree with any of what you wrote, and any offense to be taken from what Torre’s book offers up is to be taken by the individuals named, not us.
But I think that misses the point. Torre wasn’t one of the guys in the clubhouse he was the manager, the leader. That means he’s the boss and at times the counselor. What he did is not at all comperable to what Bouton or Canseco or Wells did. It’s more like what Scott McClellan did.
He used his position to generate content to profit off his managerial experiences. That may be legal but that doesn’t make it right. He turned on the people who trusted him by trading on their confidences. He bit the hand that fed him and took him from a thrice failed manager to certain Hall of Famer.
Considering how he reacted to David Wells’ book he comes off as a hypocrite and a phony. I hope it was worth it.
Sam,
I’m sure the Dodgers feel that a manager’s responsibilities still include keeping players’ confidences. That’s why, as 86w183 wrote, Torre should be viewed differently than Wells or Canseco or Bouton. A player speaking to his manager has a different expectation of privacy than when speaking with other players.
So the real question here is whether the “notion of privacy” you write about has changed with respect to managers/coaches in particular. I doubt it has. Ask 100 MLB players whether they believe their manager will keep private conversations confidential and I think you’ll get 100 affirmative replies.
That said, Torre is free to write what he wants. I just think it’s telling that TYY is being published while Torre has two more years and about $8 million left on his current contract. Do you think the Dodgers would have offered Torre his current deal if TYY had already come out?
Torre packed the house at his book signings yesterday. It was reported that there was a line for entry in the snow well over one hour before Yogi Berra’s Museum opened its doors.
Obviously, Joe still has plenty of fans. Regardless of one’s views on the book, some of those fans are those who don’t blindly live by the rule that the Yankees can do no wrong.
I love the Yankees, but I just don’t get all the hoopla and negativity over the book. And I find it comical that those who always held Joe on a pedestal have thrown him in the garbage in a blink of the eye. And are the most vocal detractors.
wang throwing off the mound makes me smile. i miss the big guy!
For those interested in the view from LA, I picked up from a commenter on Kat O’Brien’s blog that a columnist from the LA Times is traveling with Torre and wrote this about yesterday in New York:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/.....466.column
hi sam, i wrote an email to pete but i thought id mention it here too, u guys have this ad running of a stripper club on the blog, i dont think thats really appropriate especially if we have underage readers who frequent this great blog
I think Torre is being made a scapegoat. He didn’t set any precedents. He wasn’t the first to publish controversial baseball memoirs while still working.
He had no reason to assume it was any more wrong of him to do so than it was for Zimmer or Wells and others.
Personally, I wouldn’t have done it. Or I would have sought permission from those mentioned in the book to publish things about them.
However, that’s really not the way the World works any more. Sam’s right, privacy is a long-forgotten thing in the World of perpetual TMZ, page 6, paparazzi, and reality TV. This is not a good thing, but it’s really hypocritical to single out Torre for publishing things — things, let’s face most of us already knew or suspected anyway.
Joe had every reason to believe most of this was already out there — which it pretty much was — and give his own side of the story.
Sam -
I am in the middle of the book right now. I only skipped ahead to one part (regarding Damon), but am reading the book in order otherwise.
In context, in the context of the story the book is telling, I am not as put off as I was reading just the excerpts. Now, granted, I have just finished the section that deals with the 2001 team and I am in the middle of the chapter dealing with the way other teams in baseball began to change in order to compete with the Yankees – simply, the “Moneyball” section.
But if the Chapter that dealt with Johnny Damon is any indication, the excerpts do not do the book justice. First of all, it is not one page about Damon. It is a section. Second, the word “depression” is not uttered. It says he brooded, it says he moped, it says his heart wasn’t in it, it says he was burned out, it says he was waffling about wanting to play, but it NEVER says he was depressed. But perhaps the most important thing to realize is that in this section are direct quotes from Johnny Damon. He participated in this discussion, he gave information about himself. So in this instance, I do not believe Torre “broke the sanctity” of the clubhouse.
Randy l -
If you are around, the “moneyball” section is pretty fascinating.
So far, I’m coming away with the feeling that as the players involved in the championship teams left, it just became more and more difficult to replicate the ‘special something’ those teams had together. And the Yankees weren’t replacing one or two guys at a time by the end of that run. They were replacing a lot. And I do think that the guys who were still there, Torre included, had a hard time moving on.
And then the feeling that of WS or nothing really started to take hold and how good can it be for a team to win upwards of 95 games a season, win their division, and hear from everyone from ownership down to the lowly fan on the street that their season was a failure?
I’m anxious to continue reading the second half of the book. It really has been good so far, and as I say, I’ve not been “offended” yet.
And you should be aware that there are quotes in the book from a lot of different people, not just Torre.
And Sam, nice to read a grown-up view of the manufactured ‘controversy’ over those stunning revelations!
Some of the credit goes to the publisher’s marketing people, but it’s astounding how the NYC baseball public, supposedly a sophisticated market, has taken the bait.
Not to forget — there’s one born every minute!
If A-Rod wrote a book about his first yankee years I don’t think the uproar would even be close. Since Torre was (is) a manager the confidence level is higher, players believe that what is said between them remains between them, if this starts to change, players will be afraid to speak openly to their managers and in some way it could change/ruin their game. Hopefully the players see this differently and just move on and the confidence in ones manager remains. (added by Mobile using Mippin)
“So the real question here is whether the “notion of privacy” you write about has changed with respect to managers/coaches in particular. I doubt it has. Ask 100 MLB players whether they believe their manager will keep private conversations confidential and I think you’ll get 100 affirmative replies.”
I absolutely agree with this. I think one of the most telling comments came from Tommy LaSorda, certainly someone with enough baseball experience and savvy to fill TEN books and someone who has a beat on the proprieties in the game to which he has devoted his life:
“I like Joe very much. He’s a good friend of mine. I don’t want to get involved in it, so let’s move on to another question. *That’s usually not me. I usually give my opinion, but Joe’s a good friend of mine and I don’t even want to say anything about it.*”
It appears that the popular perception is that Torre has done damage to both his legacy and the notion of trust about which he so constantly preached.
While he still may be wildly popular with fans who will clamor to get his autograph, I think it would be extremely naive for anyone to suggest that this hasn’t permanently changed the relationship he will have with his players as long as he remains in the game.
trisha, lasorda is one of the most scheming and conniving managers in the history of baseball. he has been the hidden hand behind the dodgers failures of the past 20+ years. there has never been an angle he hasnt figured. please dont hold him up as st. tommy unless you are one of those who believed in st. joe.
I’m not holding him up as saint tommy nor am I holding him up as a paragon of virtue. And ham, to run with your characterization let me put it this way then” IF EVEN TOMMY LASORDA THOUGHT THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH TORRE WRITING THE BOOK, YOU KNOW HE MUST BE ONTO SOMETHING!
Trisha -
Not all of the stuff in the book is Torre. It’s an amalgam of accounts from various sources. As I stated above, so far, nothing I’ve read has upset me regarding player confidentiality, mainly because the players involved in the excerpts are also quoted in the same sections. And much of the quotes are backed up with anecdotal information that was reported at the time things happened.
Now, I’m not speaking of the Kevin Brown incident, because as yet I’ve not reached that part. I am on page 205.
What Torre did is inappropriate for an manager. Even after retirement a gossip book is not cool. It would be like Bush telling stories about the Secret Service. I thought he was a bad choice for the job, I thought he was bad manager and now I feel vindicated by how low he has stooped for another big payday. As for the long lines I’m not surprised. My children were of age during the Yankee success years and they are big defenders of Torre. When I point out his strategic errors they tell me it’s only because I dislike him. When they saw me begging him, over the TV to please bunt, please move the runner up. They thought I was just busting on Torre. When things were good it was Torre when things were bad it was fate or Cashman. Zimmer ran the team while Torre was just a lump in the dugout hugging Jeter’s bat. Except for that rare occasion when he would do a baby step trot out to ask an umpire if he was sure about the call. “A Fraud”, if it actually was said I wonder who that comment was really directed at.
Trisha. No need to yell. We hear you.
Somebody obviously got up on the wrong side of the bed.
Must have stayed up late reading Joe’s book.
i overstated, lasorda, who knows more baseball than perhaps anybody alive, was a good manager, but since the gibby homer, he has run roughshod over tha organization, his ego eclipsing anybody who tried to move the team in any direction he didnt like. whether working for them or occasionally on the outside, he has influenced every move the dodgers have made (front office and players) since 1988, and the results have been more like brooklyn’s than L.A.’s.
i have tremendous respect for him (and i have his and gibby’s bobbleheads on my altar of honor), but i have no illusions about the scheming self-promoter he is at heart.
same kind of respect i have for joe torre.
Ham,
Your description of Lasorda can be applied to Torre.
Both guys know how to manipulate the media and both guys know how to play the “game”.
Both have long memories against those they feel “wronged” them.
They are the same person. Perhaps that’s why Tommy has the perspective he has on it.
The bottom line to all this is, when a manager writes a book, including in that book private conversations, while it is entertaining for fans, it does diminish him in the eyes of many of his players.
In Torre’s case, its the height of hypocrisy to push for Wells to be fined over 160K over his book, then hide behind the “I did nothing wrong” spin he hid behind yesterday.
In his mind, he got his “story” (which is all that is. Not necessarily the full, unvarnished truth) out, got his shots in on people he felt wronged him, and will pocket a few more million into his bank account.
He “won” on all those counts.
However, the one thing he “lost” and will never get back is, he’s no longer manager of the Yankees.
He no longer has his dream job.
Hopefully, the money gives him comfort.
“Somebody obviously got up on the wrong side of the bed.
Must have stayed up late reading Joe’s book.”
Stayed up late, yes. Reading Torre’s book? Uh, no.
We liberal arts types sometimes forget that to people who are more computer savvy all caps is considered yelling.
It was done for emphasis. And maybe sometimes in life yelling is necessary to get someone’s attention?
Trisha – don’t you think that to be truly objective, you need to read the book and not simply what others tell you the book says?
All is cool about the yelling.
Pete has been Wally Pipped. Just kidding…
able21, I am being as honest as I can in telling you that based on the excerpts I have read and after watching Torre try to smokescreen the whole Afraud thing and turn it into a “it was a joke between Arod and Bowa”, I have no desire to read it. I would almost feel dirty reading it, since I believe Torre to be a master of chicanery and nothing more.
I’m being honest. I won’t read the book.
thanks doreen for your prespective on the book. I thought all of this was much ado about nothing
It was stated somewhere here in the past few days that people want to know about what goes on behind the scenes as well as the game itself. I for one am not into all the drama of the players personal life. I enjoy the game on the field and the strategy behind that but not the National Enquirer of the game. There is enough drama in life without looking for more.
Doreen,
The book is a great read. Verducci is a very good writer and the book has some very interesting passages in it.
My beef with it is, Joe goes against his own code to take shots at people he either didn’t like or didn’t agree with, while taking none of the blame for the failures in the last 3-5 years of his tenure.
Leaders take on that responsibility. Joe threw it off on others. Obviously, that’s his choice. It just doesn’t tell the entire story, IMO.
Its all too calculating to me. Throw bombs at players he assumes fans don’t like. This way, people won’t say he “broke” the code. Take none of the blame for blowing some of the post-season series. Take shots at Cash, a guy who saved his a$$ on more than one occasion, and, frankly, being a little less thankful to the Steinbrenners for giving him the opportunity he got to manage the team.
You know, its a two way street with the Yankees. Yes, the Steinbrenners can be very difficult people to work for in NY. Trust me, I’ve had my own wars with the old man back in the day.
However, where was Joe Torre prior to 1996, both in his career and financially? Where is he today? Two different universes, that’s where.
Instead of throwing some bombs, a bouquet to George, especially given his present health, would have humanized Joe a little more in the book, IMO.
He played the victim too much in it (IMO) and that’s why people around the team who have read the book have less sympathy for him.
Just as George, Cashman and others have made their share of mistakes the past several years, so did Joe. Some of Joe’s mistakes were quite significant. I’d have like to have seen a tad more humility from him on that front.
Just my take on it. I can see people taking a different point of view.
I’m glad he wrote the book. It gives everybody associated with the Yankees closure on his time with the team.
It will benefit Girardi and the 2009 team. That’s all that matters in the end.
you know its funny how we can agree on the facts but diverge so much on the interpretation. i agree with just about every point that has been made about torre’s hypocricy and the way he’s trying to spin it now. but in the end it just doesnt mean anything to me.
i see it like this, we had a great love it was bliss, that love died out, we stayed together too long hoping to reignite it, it didnt work and it ended badly.
what he are doing now is reading the post-mortem.
i dont really care about the ugly details of the nasty breakup and the resentments and repercussions that came about from it. i see that this is one of the participant’s occasionally bitter perspective of what happened. its not good, but it happens.
but for me it doesnt diminish the bliss that was, 3 championships in 4 years coming out of the dark ages inhabited by poor donnie baseball. it was wonderful, and even if you subscribe to the theory that the angel’s rally monkey could have managed that team, you’d have to admit you’d think about retiring the monkeys # anyway.
joe was great for the first 7 years at least, i dont want to dwell on the breakup and what has happened after.
as for the ‘violation’ of the sanctum santorum i say too bad. torre has to deal with that, its a choice he made and maybe it wasnt the best choice as far being a current manager, but i have no problem with it. to me, once they show up at the park its fair game, when the leave the park, i dont want to know about what they do. thats where i draw the line.
Sorry Sam I have to disagree with you. While he didn’t write about players exploits. He did violate the ‘code’. He himself got extremely angry with David Wells for breaking the code, and even as recently as 2007 was angry with the book Jose Canceco wrote. Does Johnny Damon want the entire world to know that he battled depression? If he does it is up to him to reveal that, not Joe Torre.
And a huge part of my issue is he says he wants to humanize the players. Why does it seem he set out to ‘humanize’ and embarrass players he perceives Yankee fans to dislike? I haven’t given Kevin Brown a single thought since he walked off the mound in 2004. I don’t care about his issues, I only know that he walked on that mound in game 7 when he had no business taking it, and he helped complete the biggest collapse in baseball history. I don’t care he had issues dealing with NY or what not.
I’d have a lot more respect if he really spoke the truth and said, “Yeah I wasn’t happy with how everything ended in NY and I want my story of what I had to deal with out there. I want you to see how selfish players are etc.” I’d respect that more than, I wanted to humanize players. It is total bs.
“as for the ‘violation’ of the sanctum santorum i say too bad. torre has to deal with that, its a choice he made and maybe it wasnt the best choice as far being a current manager, but i have no problem with it. to me, once they show up at the park its fair game, when the leave the park, i dont want to know about what they do. thats where i draw the line.”
I think its kinda silly that people talk about the unwritten rules of blah blah blah. Who the hell cares.
“Does Johnny Damon want the entire world to know that he battled depression? If he does it is up to him to reveal that, not Joe Torre.”
according to Doreen, who is reading the book, its Johnny Damon who provided the information in the book…
migames
I just read that and I stand corrected. It still doesn’t take away from some of the other things he said in the book.
SJ44 -
As I said, I’m only half-way through. Alex Rodriguez has not yet joined the team. I imagine the tone of the book will be quite different post-2003.
As far as Torre pushing for Wells to be fined, funny, but I just finished reading that part. Steinbrenner wanted Torre to be consigned to the bullpen. He wanted him to be embarrassed. Torre’s feeling was that to do that would be to punish the whole team, because Wells could still pitch. He wanted Steinbrenner to do the dirty work of disciplining Wells. According to the book, this went back and forth for a couple of weeks, with Steinbrenner ultimately deciding on the fine.
Torre admits to not liking Wells. And earlier in the book, it gives an accounting of something that happened which violated Torre’s managerial tenets. He had stated to his players that they would never anything about them of any significance that he had said without his first telling them. Unfortunately, Wells did something and Torre mouthed off to the press. Wells read this in the paper the next day and confronted Torre about it.
There is a lot in the book about how the Red Sox changed their modus operandi to compete with the Yankees.
randy l -
You are always complaining about how the “suits” that run the Yankees. About how they have no baseball experience. You put the Red Sox management team (office) on a pedestal. I would suggest that this presents a bit of a conflict because when John Henry took over the team, he specifically sought out numbers people over baseball people to take a lot of the human element out of player selection and evaluation. Suits run the Red Sox, randy l, and they’ve done a really good job of it.
The Yankees had to feel like they’d failed in order to make the switch over. But it’s an uphill battle because you’re fighting a culture of doing things a particular way for a long time. Cashman does not have an easy job. And to switch course, there has to be some leeway for the transition – in other words, a third place finish – to get the new way up and running. With the Red Sox, they weren’t beating the Yankees. They had a lot of leeway to implement anything that might change that situation.
“It still doesn’t take away from some of the other things he said in the book.”
shouldn’t you read the book before you jump to that conclusion?
I don’t see the rationale for Torre’s conduct because “the entire notion of privacy has changed so much in our time” – that’s like your kid saying they want to do something that you know to be wrong and they try to justify it by saying “everyone else is doing it…” There are certain principles that Torre upheld when he was manager that he now has backtracked on – and that is hypocritical no matter how you choose to look at it. I was a huge Torre fan, and defended him up and down. Now, I have to admit, I have lost a lot of respect for him. I think he was bitter the way this ended, and this is his parting shot. I know he was writing the book since 2007, but I sense if he had parted a bit more amicably, this book might have taken a different, albeit classier, tone. I think Torre will regret this, although he’ll never admit it.
The person who benefits the most from this Torre media overblown fiasco has to be Joe Girardi (obviously Torre benefits more financially but bear with me).
Imagine yourself in a relationship with a girl that you’ve loved for a long time, but your girl is still friendly/still kind of in love with her ex-boyfriend, wondering if it was the best move to start dating you. Then the ex goes and does something really dumb and now she hates him. She may really open up to you now.
Big things in ’09. I cannot wait until baseball, I’m down in Tampa counting down each day until pitchers and catchers report.
Doreen
I am really enjoying your take on the book, Thanks.
Sam
Pete writes here “gotta go the clubhouse is open” quite a bit. That in and of itself tells me the players have an expectation of privacy in the clubhouse prior to it being “open” to the media.
Pete has also said there are areas of the clubhouse off-limits to the media. If there is no expectation of privacy, why would that be the case?
Sam, as a sports writer would you voluntarily divulge things that you have seen in the baseball clubhouse?
players become reporters, managers go back and forth, players and managers all write books, and take pictures, so just because there is time set aside when the ‘working press’ is not permitted, that doesnt mean you have an expectation of privacy.
Sam,
Don’t propogate the hype. The torre stuff is cooling down and in the end, it truly is a non-story.
“It will benefit Girardi and the 2009 team. That’s all that matters in the end.”
It offers closure to the Torre era but the impact and/or benefit to the ’09 team is ZERO IMO. Doesn’t help. Doesn’t hurt.
Doreen:
Yours have been the first sound and sensible commentsI’ve read. I’ll pick up the book this afternoon and expect it to be nothing but a good fun.
Barry Lane
all torre does is blame everybody else for the decline of the team.
the honorable,humble,moral thing for torre to do is not to have written the book,period.
he had a choice to take the high road & chose not to.yes he could of really spilled the ugly stuff & to his credit he didn’t but why write a book that blames everybody else unless it is for money,take shots at people or blame everybody else for the failures the last several years.
wfan said it perfectly just now.did he break the code? ,maybe not but he pushed the line.
to rip the players that the fans won’t kill you for is wrong.if torre ripped jeter,mo,etc he knows he would of been burried.he walked a very fine line.
saying the book is old news is wishfull thinking. P’s and C’s report next week and as each memeber of the team shows up over the ensuing week and a half, they will be asked about the book and thier responses will be reported analyzed and commented on. we’re gonna be hearing about this through all of february.
let’s go yankees.finally baseball is upon us once again.
i can’t wait to see what kind of team we have,especially a very good,deep pitching staff.i also can’t wait to see how melky does.what bothers me about melky is he started 08 on fire,on pace for 30 hr’s & then hit a wall.
i think melky has a great year.
no offense, but to a young, cocky major league baseball playing millionair of today, joe torre is both a legend and a dinosaur. i dont think any of them have any intention of opening thier hearts or souls to the old guy, they like him, they can tell he’s a baseball guy, they might have heard he won an mvp in the stone age, they know he’s won the WS, and they know he’s in charge during games but i dont think there is going to be any problem with them not trusting him. they werent going to be trusting him with anything private anyway.
Concession Speech:
My fellow Americans, it is with great remorse that I stand here today to acknowledge the realization that Manny Ramirez will not be a Yankee in 2009.
While the final votes (payroll) are counted, I will keep a glimmer of hope that there has been a miscalculation but I know that is a long shot.
During this campaign I have shown great resolve and persistency and have won over many voters, but that apparently is not enough.
I would like to acknowledge SJ and Ham and all the others who said that this would never happen.
I would like to Thank Arod fan, Tom Clougher and all of the other Manny supporters for their continued backing of this campaign.
I look forward to next years campaign if Manny signs a 1 yr deal as the need will be there again, especially if we don’t win this year due to lack of fire power in our line up beyond Tex and Arod.
I hope that our pitching is enough this year to take us back down the canyon.
Once again, Thanks for your support and God Bless the Yankees!
YankeeRay
http://www.nypost.com/seven/02.....153513.htm
Re: Torre
4 rings. I don’t think Joe’s trying to hoist blame on any individual.
Does he really have to hide from that kind of success?
What failures is he ashamed of?
Not winning 10 rings?
ray, you slay me!
it was a great campaign! you were incessant, if i was running for blog congress i’d want you as my campaign manager!
“randy l –
You are always complaining about how the “suits” that run the Yankees. About how they have no baseball experience. You put the Red Sox management team (office) on a pedestal. I would suggest that this presents a bit of a conflict because when John Henry took over the team, he specifically sought out numbers people over baseball people to take a lot of the human element out of player selection and evaluation. Suits run the Red Sox, randy l, and they’ve done a really good job of it. ”
my simple answer is that the red sox management won by default. the yankees have not been the yankees with cashman gaining control of the team . if theo epstein walked into my gallery i’d likely politley ask him to leave. if lucchino came in, i would not so politely ask him to leave.with henry i’d ask how those hedge funds are going and why did you pull the plug on the spba?
in other words i can’t stand the red sox management team. they would be so easy to beat if the yankees management wasn’t asleep at the wheel since cashman has taken over.
that said the red sox do some interesting things. for one thing at some point they realized that a strict moneyball approach wasn’t going to work. they hired francona who’s still got a lot of old school in him. they hired a lot of unusual consultants who are on the payroll- former gms mike port. bill lajoie, lou gorman, allard baird. former agents jerry kapstein. here’s a list of who’s on the payroll right now for former players:
Player Development Consultant Tony Cloninger
Player Development Consultant Dwight Evans
Player Development Consultant Tommy Harper
Player Development Consultant Felix Maldonado
Player Development Consultant Frank Malzone
Player Development Consultant Carl Yastrzemski
do you know who tony cloninger is? he was the yankee minor league pitching coach in the early 90′s who was a major part of the yankees champion ship run as a pitching coach and bullpen coach. he pitched with warren spahn. played with aaron and torre. oh yeah, he also hit two grand slams in a game for the braves and pitched a complete game winning the game. he became the red sox pitching coach in 2002-2003 after cashman got fired him as bullpen coach.
he got cancer and couldn’t continue as red sox pitching coach. he is still to this day a red sox pitching consultant. he got 4 rings with the yankees and now 2 more rings with the red sox. funny how championships just seem to follow this guy.
tony cloninger is one thing what is wrong with the present yankees. he should have never been fired. his problem was that he was old school. really old school. but then the red sox , the supposedly moneyball team hired him?
all is not what it seems.
as a disclaimer, i have to say i like and respect tony very much. he was my pitching coach for two years and was always a class act. there is no better person in the game.
he worked for the yankees for at least 12 years until cashman fired him. coaches like him are not in the yankee system anymore. who’s loss is that ?
want to know why i don’t like cashman? tony cloninger is one reason.
All this book did for me was reveal how much of a coward and hypocrite Joe Torre is. Bash David Wells for writing a book divulging clubhouse secrets, then do so yourself – that makes you a hypocrite. Blame everyone else but yourself for the failings of the Yankees from ’03 on as well as take shots at the guys he knows he can take shots at and spare the rest – that makes you a coward.
doreen-
if my tone sounds pissed off the more i wrote the more it became that way as i wrote about cloninger.
it’s not directed at you who asked a very good question.
the yankees used to have a huge roster of has beens and glad handers too. big deal.
rather : ” if my tone sounds pissed off, the more i wrote, the more it became that way, as i wrote about cloninger.”
I’m just surprized how quickly this book came out.
I would have thought he’d at least put another year between him and the Yankees.
Doesn’t it seem odd that it came out so quickly?
It’s obvouis the book was written while he was still feeling bitter, and now he’s trying to cover himself.
Pete, I just your piece..Thank you for the clearity and perception…Several of us here agree that Torre never breached any clunhouse traditions…Maybe the witch hunt on Joe Torre will lose some steam and the rantings will cease…..It’s been a tough week here at LoHud….
Doreen, thanks for your take on the book. I and some others have been trying to get people to read the book before attacking it, and your comments are bringing some perspective to the discussion.
I’m a little envious that you have the book already. I don’t think I’ll be able to get it before the weekend.
I just love him.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
“Doreen, thanks for your take on the book. I and some others have been trying to get people to read the book before attacking it, and your comments are bringing some perspective to the discussion.”
before doreen, the only one who had read the book was sj44 and the media
I wondered how long it would take for the media who fed at the Torre Teet to start defending his actions.
I wonder if you would feel differently if it was your dirty laundry being aired by your doctor or manager at work?
Pretty lame excuse for someone who betrayed the trust of the team and players that turned him from a scrub into a celebrity.
Joe Torre made his deal, got paid, threw the usual suspects under the bus. Good for him. But the back lash is part of the deal. And just because Posada says he didn’t cross the line doesn’t make it so, because he was never in the crosshairs.
To me this is like arguing religion or politcs. If you love Torre, this changes nothing. If you think this has crossed a line, it really casts a negative shaddow. I wonder what the Torre fans would think if it were Pavano who wrote the book and were critical of Torre?
Chris of Simply Smoov. GREAT JOB. That might have been my fav pinch hit.
Ham Fighters
February 4th, 2009 at 10:39 am
ray, you slay me!
it was a great campaign! you were incessant, if i was running for blog congress i’d want you as my campaign manager!
——
Ham, living in Fl now I still have hope that the chads were miscounted
William Buckner,
Speaking for me only, I was never a big Torre fan, although I do appreciate and respect what he contributed to the Yanks. I just like to think I have an instinctive dislike for witch hunts.
randy
As much as I respect Francona for how he has carried himself as RS manager, I’m not sure I would call him old school. As I’ve watched them it looks to me as some of the decisions on game strategy is being made by the managment rather than Francona. I consider old school playing some small ball and Boston doesn’t do that. Very few do today.
Randy l -
No offense taken. And, having read about 50 more pages of the book, it does go on to say (in a different chapter) that the Red Sox have learned how to merge the two aspects – sabermetrics and more ‘old school’ approaches. Hiring Francona was a huge move in that direction.
My defense of Cashman here is that he has to fight an age-old sub-culture with the Yankees. Actually, I think that Hal taking the reins might help Cashman in a lot of ways. Hal is not George and is more in tune with a more modern approach to running a baseball team. You can’t change things on a basic level if you have someone running the club (owner) who insists on acquiring the biggest names without regard to how they fit with a team. An owner who devalues his own farm system. I think Hal is very different from his dad and that this bodes well for the Yankees going forward.
I think Cashman may have been trying to start anew, without as few leftovers as possible. So far, at least from what you and some others have said, there still aren’t enough baseball people in the places that matter. Let’s hope that will be changed going forward as well. I don’t think Cashman is stupid. I want to see what he’s going to do now.
I just finished reading the Alex chapter. Well, there’s no doubt that there are people who, at the very least, are uncomfortable (or were, for the first 2, 3 seasons) with Alex. I get the feeling that Torre was more frustrated by Alex than anything else and there were things about him that he just couldn’t understand. It is clear Verducci does not like Alex. And if you read the book, you will be able to distinguish, at least somewhat. The biggest problem is the constant comparison between ARod and Jeter, and Torre himself is “guilty” of that. They are polar opposites in their approach to the game.
But, again, I did not see anything that would be in violation of “the code.” I remember reading almost all of the anecdotes at one time or another. And the prevailing feeling that players in baseball just don’t get why ARod does or says some of things he does or says. Nothing really new here. Only two things stood out: when Alex was having his mega-slump, Cashman was prevailing upon Torre to have Jeter, as captain, say something positive and Torre refused to ask Jeter to do it. The other was the Cashman blamed Jeter for the uncaught pop-up because as shortstop he needed to take charge. But Torre blased BOTH of them because it was, well, he used an untype-able word, so I’ll just say, unprofessional.
But Torre sounds more frustrated about ARod and puzzled. He reached out and had teammates reaching out, but according to Torre and Verducci, ARod didn’t get the nuances of such conversations.
An interesting side note, though, is in the passage about ARod being surprised the Jeter didn’t have the MLB package. This took place at Jeter’s home. ARod and MIke Borzello went to Jeter’s place because ARod wanted a hair cut and Jeter had someone who came to his house to give haircuts. I would just like to say that this doesn’t sound like they hated each other. Would Jeter invite ARod into his home if he absolutely couldn’t stand the guy?
still crushing-
good link. shows some jeter personality and and sense humor.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
YankeeRay
I am glad you are finally conceding. Lets hope the Dodgers put out that flicker of hope soon. lol
I can’t believe YankeeRay conceded the Manny Race. Now Randy I is sounding apologetic?
What’s going on here today?
Maine Yankee -
In the part of the book that talks about Francona, they said he was a little of both – old school with an appreciation of sabermetrics.
By the way, somebody impersonated me yesterday on the blog toward the end of the last thread I was in. I wonder how often that happens?
Wave,
Not sure this qualifies as “witchhunt.” It’s more of being cast out in the court of public opinions. Torre still has his supporters. I’d say what was once a 75-25 pro-Torre split is now a 40-60 or even 50-50.
I was alway liked Torre. I still want to. Just not a fan of this.
Doreen, I feel as though I’m reading the book…Your updates are refreshing..I do hope the climate here gets a relaxed feeling…Last night things seemed to mellow out, as good baseball dialog replaced the bitterness and the Torre battlefield….
Anyone see this quote from Quantrill?
“Whatever his involvement is with this book, Joe Torre is the No.1 guy,” Quantrill argued. “People may understand that he didn’t say that, but even being Joe Torre, being the greatest manager, blah-blah-blah, he’s walking a thin line. When you start exposing anything from the clubhouse in general, whether it’s about a dickhead like ‘the fraud,’ or anything, it doesn’t really matter. It’s that you opened up and said it.”
I’m guessing Arod was never at Quantrill’s house for a hair cut.
As for what is a witchhunt? I thought the Mitchell Report was. I think some of what’s going on with Bonds and Clemens is. Lance Armstrong having to defend doping claims was. Michael Phelps is an anti-witch hunt because most people like him.
Doreen
Does that mean Jeter isn’t “one of the guys” because he doesn’t go get his own haircut, he needs someone to bring it to him?
“As for what is a witchhunt? I thought the Mitchell Report was. I think some of what’s going on with Bonds and Clemens is. Lance Armstrong having to defend doping claims was.”
Maybe we see things more alike than I thought.
Doreen
I totally agree with your assesment of what Cashman has had to deal with as far the ownership is concerned. I think every GM is in a can’t win situation. When things go well the credit often goes to the owners and the willingness to spend. If they fail the GM didn’t do a good job aquiring players.
Also Cashman has had to many cooks in the kitchen. I think that part of what was going on in Boston when Theo didn’t resign a few years ago was a power struggle between him and Luccino. That is similar to what Cashman did in 05. Trying to have more control and less interference.
Doreen,
How many chapters does Torre devote to Scott Proctor?
Joe Girardi can’t help but benefit by Torre’s book. All he needs to do is learn from game managing mistakes of 2008 and fit what he’s been provided with new and more flexible players to blend in with what was good already.
He knows full well that Torre’s shadow in no longer present and he also knows that Torre would never have seen playoffs in 2008 if not for one Manny Ramirez.
Wave,
I’m sure we’e not far apart in opinion at all.
Maybe just a matter in taste for what Joe did? To me, a relatable example is Manny Ramirez. He did what he did in Boston to get traded. People loved him there, then they hated him. But Manny did something that some considered wrong to solicit the change in public opinion.
In the end, he got what he wanted. But it came with a cost. Same for Torre.
Sometimes Jeter’s interviews read like absurdist theatre.
Doreen
It just seems that Boston goes more by what numbers say. Not saying I’m right , just my observation. I do like you relating what the book has to say. Thanks
manny to the giants? from today’s sf chronical:
“A source close to the club has indicated the Giants are willing to offer Ramirez two years. Can you imagine Manny being so furious with the Dodgers, he would accept the same two-year, $45 million deal he rejected in L.A.? Unless he has a major problem with AT&T Park and the Bay Area weather, it could happen.”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....15MDQO.DTL
As for baseball news, does anybody have insight in our RF situation?
Are we shopping Nady or Swisher, or all that talk is over with?
(If we were in a room, that question would be for everyone, but I’d be looking at SJ44 when I asked it.)
“As for what is a witchhunt? I thought the Mitchell Report was. I think some of what’s going on with Bonds and Clemens is.”
I’m not sure I’m buying a witchhunt on the Mitchell Report. The report named only people they had locked in to using, (i.e. they didn’t name McGwire or Sosa because whatever they may have done was outside the scope of what they had access to in terms of info/witnesses) but also indicated the list of names was merely the tip of the iceberg.
Clemens/Bonds??? These may be witchhunts, but those two have been their own worst enemies. To some degree it’s fitting that it’s the best hitter and the best pitcher(arguably) who will end up serving as the faces of the PED/Steroid era.
Steve,
To clarify my point.
How many people were named in the Mitchell report that were not NY baseball players? Mitchell spent millions of dollars to get Kirk Radomski and Brian McNamee. Not what I call a great investigation.
Clemens, I have a problem when evidence is provided by the accuser, that was kept in a Coke can.
Bonds, UA’s that were provided by his employer that were meant to be private and confidential.
William Buckner-
The Manny situation is an odd one to me. I don’t live up in New England and of course don’t follow the Red Sox that closely (just enough for a Yankee fan), but I can’t help but feel the Red Sox mishandled the situation somehow to let it get to where it did. I’m not defending Manny necessarily, but when you have a player that good I think you ought to figure out some way to get along with him.
On Torre, for me the jury is still out until I read the book. Until I read it, I don’t feel comfortable trying to say whether he did something wrong (by which I mean, I guess, something that offends my personal code of conduct).
The Damon situation Doreen mentioned earlier is a good example. Many people were accusing Torre of reporting something very personal about Damon which (per Doreen) it turns out Torre never did, and then making judgments about Torre on the basis of a factually inaccurate belief of what was in the book. (Again, I haven’t read it, just going by my take of what Doreen said).
JoeyA:
I’d guess they are still looking to move one of those two, but may need to see the glut of corner OF’s presently on the FA market dwindle a bit before anything happens. IMO, Nady will bring next to nothing back because he’s a one year rental. Swisher should garner some decent return, but I’d think the Yankees would prefer to keep him over Nady.
imo, manny has landed squarly in the lap of the mets. they need a RH power bat and a corner OF.
they are also gonna need a big PR splash when they have to debrand and change the name of thier new ballpark (expect the contract to be drastically amended and shortened before opening day).
this is worse than the yankees passing on beltran.
Was Paul ever on the same team as Alex? I thought they missed each other by a year.
Wave Your Hat
February 4th, 2009 at 11:16 am
By the way, somebody impersonated me yesterday on the blog toward the end of the last thread I was in. I wonder how often that happens?
——
Happens to me all the time. I never wanted Manny on the Yankees
Still Crushing
Thanks for the link.
Contrary to popular belief DJ does have a personality.
And he’s a total smart@#* in an endearing way.
“My defense of Cashman here is that he has to fight an age-old sub-culture with the Yankees…”
doreen-
tony cloninger was part of that sub culture.
cashman has expelled the tony cloningers out of the system because he doesn’t understand their value.
cashman can spend the yankees to a championship, but he won’t develop them to one.
the coaches cashman now has in place at the minor league and major league level are a joke compared to someone like cloninger.
i am enjoying your take on the torre book and know that you are giving an accurate description of what you’re reading, but you are very naive about cashman when you think he’s fighting some evil subculture within the yankees.
he’s fighting against guys that really know the game who are a threat to him.
doreen , you would really like tony cloninger if you met him in person. he’s your kind of people. cashman firing him makes no sense at all. the problem is it’s part of a pattern. your faith in cashman is at odds with the way he treats someone like cloninger.
people like cloninger were responsible for the yankees four championships. they are not “an age old subculture ” that needs to be expelled.
lets do a test. you’re reading torre’s book. check the index. if cloninger is mentioned, what does torre say about cloninger?
Manny on the Giants would be very good for the anti–Torre crowd.
“Happens to me all the time. I never wanted Manny on the Yankees”
YankeeRay-
Say it ain’t so!
Okay. Now, the dark days begin (in the book, that is).
The Red Sox out-maneuver the Yankees to get Schilling. It was a little more than just the Diamondback taking less from the Red Sox than they would have wanted from the Yankees. Schilling’s preferences were Philly or the Yankees. Theo Epstein did a masterful job of convincing Schilling that the Red Sox were the perfect team for him. Because Schilling had to approve the deal. It stinks that the Red Sox got him cheap, and also got away with including a $1 million bonus if they won the WS, but the bottom line was they blew Schilling away with their courtship, while the Yankees were pre-occupied elsewhere.
The author talks about the really poor off-season they had after 2003. With the exception of signing Rodgriguez and Sheffield, they didn’t do too well. The pitching staff was only right-handed, for one thing.
The author also talks about how poorly that team performed. According to the Pythagorean formula they should have only won 89 games. This is where the author’s feelings for Joe Torre come into play. He says: “Torre, however, like a pilot landing a jet on a bobbing aircraft carrier in stormy seas in the dark of night, somehow delivered the Yankees to a second straight 101-win season…” Hyperbole? Overstatement? Exaggeration? Just an overly fawning characterization in my mind.
“Mitchell spent millions of dollars to get Kirk Radomski and Brian McNamee. Not what I call a great investigation.”
They wouldn’t have had that much if the government didn’t compel them to cooperate. The biggest problem with the investigation was the players’ unwillingness to cooperate with it. The players and MLBPA are as much at fault with the way this ended up as Selig and MLB is, maybe moreso. All sides were correctly scolded in the report.
The Yankees and Mets didn’t suffer that day, baseball did.
Jennifer, I think they actually played together for one season. I think Quantrill was with the Yanks until mid-2005.
So Verducci makes that statement, that it was Torre’s stewardship that led to the 12 extra wins, but then goes on to talk about the incredible offense the Yankees had that year. Pitching not so good, but the offense took care of business.
Now onto the 2004 LCS.
Wave,
I respect your approach of waiting to get the entire story instead of pieces that trickle out in the media.
For me, even if he wrote of how Jeter confided in him that he was going to give all of his money to cancer research, the problem I have, is that private talk should remain private.
Jeter was a little more obvious and pointed in putting this reporter’s idiocy on display — he often does the same thing more subtly, frequently subtly enough that the reporters in question never even seem to notice and keep burbling happily on. I always love that.
Wave Your Hat
I know you didn’t ask the Manny question to me but I would like to give you my observation if I can.
It was really both sides that were at fault. Manny was a diva and wanted special treatment. The RS allowed it.
In their defense if they didn’t allow it he would sulk and either dog it or plain quit on them.
Part of the problem for ownership was that they inherited some of this problem from the previous ownership.
Some of the same things went on for Pedro when he was there.
All Torre did was shoot the wounded and get paid a lot of money for it.
So, you’re right, Pete. He is very much a man of his times.
doreen-
you’re doing triple time today reading the book, commenting on the book, and answering comments on the book.
how much do we get paid for this ? lol.
Too bad, I don’t have the time to defend the following stance but I would if I could.
Jose Canseco violated the sanctity of the clubhouse.
Joe Torre did NOT violate the sanctity of the clubhouse.
JIm Bouton? Somewhere in between? I’d have to re-read Ball Four.
**************************
By the way, is anyone appalled by the hypocrisy of the New York Post? Everyone from their vulgar gossip columnist to their illiterate sports reporters have cried that Joe Torre violated the sanctity of clubhouse.
Meanwhile, the Post is the Paper that paid a Toronto restauranteur in 2007 to lure A-Rod to his restaurant so they could snap photos of him with a stripper.
I can’t believe they now have the temerity to charge any one with invading A-Rod’s, or any other player’s, privacy.
The self-righteous hypocrisy of people never ceases to nauseates me.
Steve
Yes, baseball did suffer, and those guilty should have been outed. But I’m interested in the scope of the problem. I know what went on in NY. How did PED effect players in Kansas City or St. Louis or Minny or Chicago?
randy l -
Cloninger is not listed in the index. And as much as Verducci talks about the Red Sox changes, there has not been, as of page 284, any mention of what’s happened since Cash got his total control, so to speak. Now, that may occur later on – I’m just at the 2004 ALCS.
Perhaps I just like Cashman from my limited view of him. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Verducci did mention the strength & conditioning debacle (all those hammie injuries) and compared that to the more biomechanics approach the Sox were taking.
Doreen – thanks for the book recaps – but Pleeeeeasssseeee
don’t spoil the ending for me.
I’m guessing Saint Joe slays the evil players and mgmt.- but one guy escapes (Cashman maybe? – shh…don’t tell me) -then they’ll have a plot for the blockbuster sequel.
My memory of the Schilling deal was that Arizona asked for more from the Yankees than Boston because of a previous deal that involved Wells. Arizona had a handshake deal to sign Wells and then Stein swept in and signed him. They had some hard feelings about that and let it influence the deal for Schilling.
“It was really both sides that were at fault. Manny was a diva and wanted special treatment. The RS allowed it.”
Here’s my question (and I’m not being cute – I really don’t know the answer and would appreciate people’s take on it):
If someone is as good as Manny, is it OK to let him be a diva, to let him live by special rules?
I know in Little League or on the high school team the answer is no, but at the major league level? Manny is really good and gives you a lot of wins.
oooh… done in by the evil cross out line.
““Torre, however, like a pilot landing a jet on a bobbing aircraft carrier in stormy seas in the dark of night,”
So the writing’s pretty even-handed?
Randy.
Hope you are well.
I also hope you wait until Theo spends a hefty sum before tossing him out to the lonely, cold streets of Wellfleet.
You know, given the economy and such…
-dennis
DT, Mark Wahlberg reappears and finishes off Cashman
“Because Schilling had to approve the deal. It stinks that the Red Sox got him cheap, and also got away with including a $1 million bonus if they won the WS, but the bottom line was they blew Schilling away with their courtship, while the Yankees were pre-occupied elsewhere.”
Schilling actually got a better bonus than $1M. When Boston won in 2004, it extended Schilling’s contract by one year at $13M or $14M. It was an illegal incentive under the CBA, but it was somehow missed.
As for the Yankees being “preoccupied”, Boston certain was not alone in blowing people away with their courtship. Mussina and Giambi, in particular, talked about how well the Yankees went about making them feel wanted as FA’s.
Doreen-
I agree with DT – could you at least insert a big SPOILER ALERT on anything really juicy?
Randy I, It seems more comfortable here today..No mention of Tony Cloninger ????
I might just wait for the movie, instead of reading the book.
I’m thinking…
They could get Karl Malden to play Torre – but they better hurry he’s pretty old.
Peter MacNicol could play Brian Cashman.
Larry David could reprise the voice of Steinbrenner.
They might have to cut out the Clemens/icy hot scene to maintain an R rating.
“By the way, is anyone appalled by the hypocrisy of the New York Post? Everyone from their vulgar gossip columnist to their illiterate sports reporters have cried that Joe Torre violated the sanctity of clubhouse.”
————————————————————
Not really. Most people are able to distinguish the difference between what any newspaper reports as news and the need for a code of confidentiality/trust between the players and their managers.
“My memory of the Schilling deal was that Arizona asked for more from the Yankees than Boston because of a previous deal that involved Wells”
My memory was that Schilling, who was 37 in late ’03, was second prize behind Javier Vazquez, who at 26, had just completed 4 seasons where he averaged 225 innings pitched, 200 K’s and a 3.50 or so ERA. Both teams wanted him, but when Boston couldn’t get it done with Montreal, they turned to Schilling. The Yankees then swooped in and got a Vazquez deal done. Didn’t work out as planned, but on the surface, getting a 26 year old workhorse on the rise would seem to trump getting a 37 year old who was deep into the back nine of his career.
The Mitchell Report was a joke, Clemens is a joke, MacNamee and Radomski are a joke. For anyone to tout that stupid report as being complete or successful is just assinine. For Clemens to come to court unprepared without one specific argument was dumb. To act like MacNamee’s ‘evidence’ has any credibility is a joke. And the kicker, for Radomski to be allowed to write a book and make money off a crime just shows the decline in our culture.
I think we need new laws that dont allow someone to benefit from their own crimes.
doreen-
thanks for looking that up in the index. i have no doubt the yankees would have had a different story had cloninger not been there those 13 years. to me this shows that even when someone like torre, who’s the ultimate inside tells his story ,it’s very much a partial story.
the fact cloninger was there before torre and became his pitching coach and bullpen coach shows what torre thought of him, yet no mention. plus they played together for years on those great braves teams. odd, but i’m sure they are good friends. maybe verducci just didn’t tap into things like that. i’m sure verducci did have his own viewpoint and agenda.
there are stories within the stories within the stories . to get the real picture of the yankees championship years will take much more than any one book. if nothing else , this book is good because it’s acting as catalyst for discussion.
no one view will tell the whole story. i’d like to read a book that torre wrote himself in the first person. with the success of this one ,what’s the chance that this will be the last torre book?
new post…
Wave Your Hat
I think that what ended the relationship was that Manny was afraid the RS would pick up his two options for 20mil. It appears that Boris had convinced him he could get a 4yr 100mil as a FA. In order to get that he had to get out of those option years. Hence the act to get out of Boston. Just my take on it.
OH MY HEAVENS!
I do apologize. I really wasn’t meaning to spoil anything. I will refrain from any more remarks on the book. It’s not fair to you who are going to read it.
So, so sorry.
pat m-
it kind of helped when sam borden took a position more in line with ours, but we were confident we were ahead of the curve, right? lol.
the only time it got a little dicey was when we thought we were talking to just each other.
we won’t make that mistake again. as sam says, it’s all out there. act like everything is on the record.
Bronx Jeers -
It was even-handed to that point.
pat m-
tony cloninger has 6 world series rings. 4 from the yankees and 2 from the red sox.
he is exactly the kind of coach that we have been talking about being absent from the organization.
he also taught me how to throw straight( which shows how good a coach he is). after a bullpen session when he was instructing a pitcher while standing very close to him, i knocked him on his butt twice in a space of 5 minutes by throwing the ball back” a little wide and outside”.
it was not funny at the time. i got an immediate mechanics lesson that i’ve never forgotten. i give it to little kids now on missing up and down but not sideways. the “T” drill if you ever ran across it.
Now that Joe has “opened up”, we should endeavor to find out what the players (ex-players) thought of Torre. Now that would be an interesting turn of events. I am guessing a fair share, certainly Sheffield, Arod and probably guys who were burnt out by Torre like Proctor, probably hated him.
I was never a Torre fan, and quite honestly, after 2002 (when Zimmer left) though he was a fraud. The last 5 years Torre was exposed as incompetent at making in game decisions. The book shows him as insecure and he still refuses to take any blame for six straight playoff debacles!! Amazing!
“ete, I just your piece..Thank you for the clearity and perception…Several of us here agree that Torre never breached any clunhouse traditions…Maybe the witch hunt on Joe Torre will lose some steam and the rantings will cease…..It’s been a tough week here at LoHud….”
Someone might want to tell Pat M. to put the bong down, stop the crying, and take a train to realityville.
1. The article was written by Sam Borden not Pete.
2. Pete is disgusted with Torre.
3. If only several of you think that Torre didn’t breach and the rest seem to think otherwise maybe you’re the ones who have it wrong.
You all need to read the book before you judge and stop being pawns to the media. Don’t believe the hype. I’m 1/4 way through the book and have relived some amazing moments as a Yankees fan. It’s written matter of fact and almost cathartic rather than scathing and vendictive. He gave 12 tough years and then it was “see ya” influenced by a horse trainer and a lawyer…and ugly ones at that. The man needs closure. Joe earned the right to close The Stadium and open the new one. He helped restore the pride in the pinstripes and they thanked him by “overlooking” including him in the closing ceremony. To me, that’s the true betrayal. Torre waxing poetic on the ups and downs of his Yankees years and all the characters he encountered is just a good read.
Sherlock I would hardly say Pete is disgusted with Torre. You just lived through a time when the President was tapping civilian phones. As far as betrayal and abuse of power is concerned, I think Pete has perspective.
Amandla I’m going on what Pete posted on his blog. What are you going on?
I just went back to reread Petes entries on the subject and still maintain that disgusted would be too strong a word. He does say that he believes he shouldn’t have betrayed confidences but I didn’t find any comment anywhere near disgusted.
Okay maybe disgusted is too strong. Definitely didn’t agree with what Torre did is accurate.
The “sanctity of the clubhouse” is somewhat of a myth, but if Torre is going to out players he should expect some repercussions.
He comes off as a hypocrite because he was so adamant about Wells’ book and had him fined $100K for writing it.