The next controversy
Posted by: Sam Borden - Posted in Misc on Feb 06, 2009 
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When you follow the Yankees, the notion of the “next big story” is perpetual: Everything fades into something else, usually involving A-Rod. It is the Yankees own version of a 24-hour news cycle.
At some point this year, maybe even soon, the big story will be Derek Jeter’s future. It is inevitable. It is also unprecedented.
There has never been a player who has made as much money and been as critically linked to a franchise as Jeter. There is, literally, no history to look back at and say, “yes, of course, this is how we handle the situation” when it comes to addressing Jeter’s contract, which expires in 2010. Everyone is flying blind.
What makes the situation even more difficult is that the two elements which comprise it – Jeter’s baseball abilities and his intangible value – are at odds. From a baseball standpoint, it is incredibly unusual for a 36 year old position player (particularly one whose statistics have been subject to relatively standard aging drops) to get any type of big-money long-term deal. From an intangible standpoint, Jeter’s worth to the Yankees business model (in popularity, fan support and marketing/sales) makes keeping him with the team forever a no-brainer. The problem lies in putting those diverging sentiments together.
Joel Sherman wrote about the issue in today’s Post, but it’s difficult for anyone to have a clear and completely defensible position on what the Yankees should do with Jeter. Changing positions may or may not be a realistic option; last time I checked, the Yankees have a first baseman they love, a second baseman they seem to believe in and way too many DH’s, not to mention no particular reason to believe Jeter would be any good at either infield position, have enough range to play center or hit for enough power to justify a corner outfield spot. Plus, there’s no guarantee Jeter is interested in playing somewhere other than shortstop. Then again, would he really be interested in playing somewhere other than New York?
Knowing Jeter, he will offer incredibly little information into his thinking on the subject of the future (I foresee a lot of “We’re just trying to win today’s game, man” quotes) so how the process unfolds may be murky. But know for sure that at some point in the future, the Yankees will have to begin a dialog with Jeter and his agent about what happens next.
What will? No one knows. For now, all we can do is wait for the answer – and the “next controversy” that will surely follow.
Talk about premature. Jeter could have an outtanding couple of seasons between now and then offensively while playing his normal brand of solid defense with limited range. The Yankees will sign him to like a three year $51M deal and controvery is solved. They will find a space for him to play, don’t worry.
Get rid of all the DH types, make Jeter full-time DH, let him put on some muscle, and be like Edgar Martinez, just a hitting machine
Maybe a 5 year extension, which includes 2 years at short, with the final three years of the contract as 1st base/ 3rd base/ or bench coach. An unprecedented deal, but it is, as Sam writes, an unprecedented situation. The problem is, with the Yanks set up as they are, there is really only one position for Jeter. Same issue with Posada, although DH is more likely for him in 2010, after Matsui is probably elsewhere.
You offer Jeter 3 years, 30 million to play SS, DH and eventually LF. With Jackson in CF, and Holliday maybe in RF…we could live with that.
All sides would be happy, I think.
Jeter would be a waste in leftfield. Can’t put a guy slugging .400 in a corner spot. If he moved anywhere it would be second (extremely doubtful) or center (where he’ll probably be below average at 37 years old).
See if the Rockies will take Cano and other pieces for Troy Tulowitski and then move Jeter to 2B. What to pay him? I have no idea.
Yanks would be crazy to offer a long-term deal to Jeter. It’s a no-brainer. He’ll be a fading mid-30′s player with increasingly limited range. Offer him a two year deal. That’s it.
Jim…why would the Rockies ever do that?
Nah, this isn’t the next controversy… not even close. There’s a lot more in between now and then.
This debate is pointless right now. There’s a LOT can happen in the next couple of years.
The Yankees will work this out with Jeter. This isn’t A-Rod we are talking about. The Yankees do not want to fight with Jeter. They will work a deal with keeps Jeter around until he retires, then work out the details later.
It’s not a problem until the Yankees and Jeter make it a problem. Yeah, I’m talking to you, Joel Sherman.
Two tidbits from MLBTR:
-The Braves are the top suitor for Nick Swisher, but their suggestion that the Yankees eat some of Swisher’s contract was shot down.
-Stark has heard that Angels owner Arte Moreno is ticked at Scott Boras and Mark Teixeira for the way they handled negotiations.
Boo on moving Swish. We hardly knew ye.
I was wondering why the Angels weren’t pursuing Manny. He’d be perfect for them. Could it be ‘jilted lover’ syndrome? What did Boras do wrong? There was no expressed guarantee that Tex would re-up with the Angels. If the Angels couldn’t get it done, it was probably not enough money and geography. IIRC the Angels bowed out early in the process. Wasn’t it down to Boston & the Nats?
Swisher is not going anywhere unless we get something way more valuble back. The way out bench has been, KEEP NADY AND SWISH!!!
we need people who can hit on the bench for once.
Since when does it make a difference what position the offense comes from as long as there is offense? Jeter may not hit like most corner outfielders, but, then, Cano doesn’t hit and field like most second basemen and Rodriguez doesn’t hit like most other players, either.
Re: Jeter @ DH.
If Jeter can just manage to cover shortstop for 3 more years, he can be the DH after Posada’s contract expires.
I think our DH chain is Matsui-Posada-Jeter-Arod.
StandingO’Neill
Jim…why would the Rockies ever do that?
I lived in Denver for 9 years, I have seen them do strange things. That being said, sometimes blockbuster deals happen. Go back in time, why did the Mets ever trade Tom Seaver, but they did. If the Rockies felt the Yanks could offer a couple of pieces that would help them and say get three pieces to help their team and lose just one, then maybe you do it.
Green…thats true Cano didn’t hit like most second basemen last year.
I’m not so sure that it’s really that unprecedented. Willie Mays and the Giants. Hank Aaron and the Braves. More recently, Barry Larkin and the Reds. How it goes depends a lot on the next two seasons — fans will cut Jeter a lot of slack, but if (like Bernie Williams) it becomes clear that he can’t cut it, I think they’ll understand if the Yankees decide to move on. The ugly (and not unlikely) situation is if he loses enough to be a problem but not enough for it be obvious….
We have too many DHs NOW, but in 2 years?
I say we transition Jeter to DH in 2011 and try and sign him to a 4 year deal to finish his career.
20 Mil in 2011, 17 in 2012, 15 in 2013, 12 in 2014
Let him get his 3200-3300 hits, and then sign one year contracts for as long as he wants to come back. Maybe even make him a player-coach.
If I’m Cashman, I think about talking with Jeter now. Get a feel for what he envisions for his future and how well that matchups with what Cashman sees. Does Jeter want to play til he’s 40? How’s he feel about changing positions? Etc.
Would he be interested in an extension of his existing contract? Say an additional 2-3 years at $13M-$14M each?
Sooner it’s settled, less likely it is to balloon into something.
Saucy and and any Other Uncle Floyd Fans:
David Bowie has a song about Uncle Floyd and Oogie. And Guess What…. They are Yankee Fans
Slip Away Excerpt
Oogie waits for just another day
Drags his bones
to see the Yankees play
Bones Boy talks and flickers gray
Oh, they slip away
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU2DycMdLHg
GB7,
Thank you for bringing that up! It’s the sum of the parts. Not the parts.
True Jim, but Tulowitzki is easily their most valuable player. He’s young, cheap and does just about everything above average. Even a 2-1 trade wouldn’t be worth it on the Rockies end.
StandingO’Neill
February 6th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Green…thats true Cano didn’t hit like most second basemen last year.
————————————————————
name five other 2nd basemen that hit better than Cano last year and in the last 4 years, name 2 that have been better.
Tony Gwynn played is whole career in right – Jeter has more power than Gwynn.
Plus is “the real cano” shows up he’ll provide plus power from second
My father always told us not to go looking for trouble because it will find you soon enough.
When this “trouble” decides to find me, I’ll think about it. Not until.
Hasta luego sports fans. We have enough to do with thinking about today. You know, today is a gift, that’s why they call it the present?
I agree with talking to Jeter right now.
DH makes sense if he can play SS two or three more years.
Everyone who would need the DH spot will be retired or gone.
In his spare time, work out at 1st a little in case Tex ends up on the DL at some point, which is inevitable.
Why not make the move for Jeter to 2nd and Cano to a corner OF spot?
Jim
February 6th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
StandingO’Neill
Jim…why would the Rockies ever do that?
I lived in Denver for 9 years, I have seen them do strange things. That being said, sometimes blockbuster deals happen. Go back in time, why did the Mets ever trade Tom Seaver, but they did. If the Rockies felt the Yanks could offer a couple of pieces that would help them and say get three pieces to help their team and lose just one, then maybe you do it.
————————————————————
Not every General Manager or Managing Partner is as stupid and ill-equiped as Donald Grant was.
GB: since the Jays DFA Russ Adams, take a flier on him as a utilty player?
Uncle Ellsworth, you made my day. no sound at work, but i’ll try to bring up that video on my phone when i go out for lunch
I don’t know why I’m under the impression that Cano is slow-footed. Could he play the outfield? What’s his arm like? For all we know, he could throw like a girl.
And after we replace SS, we’ll have to think about 3B (Youuukkk?). Alex will be getting up there in years as well.
How is the Rajab of Injury Pavano Hughes doing these days?
mel: I think Youk is finishing his career with Boston. correct me if I’m wrong.
Just last year alone:
Pedroia, Iwamura,Kinsler, Roberts, Utley, DeRosa, Hudson, Kendrick,Phillips, Polanco….
Jeff NJ got it — premature. Last I checked Jeter won a Silver Slugger Award for his offense last year and his defensive stats last year rated him as: 9th most in games; 8th most in games started; 12th in innings played; 14th in total chances; 5th in put outs; 16th in most assists; 6th in fewest errors; 17th in most double plays; and, 10th best UZR. That basically makes in a middle of the pack performer defensively among shortstops. Are you really suggesting a switch has to happen this season? As far as no where to go after this season, two of those DH types (Matsui and Damon) will likely be gone and, if Posada is good enough to be behind the plate, should Jeter need to, the DH slot is open as early as next year.
Looks like Nick Swisher is coming to camp is pretty good shape as well.I still think and hope that the Yankees hold onto BOTH he and Nady
http://www.newsandsentinel.com.....14006.html
Re: Our next shortstop
I think the more intriguing question is who takes over for Jeter.
With Jeter’s defensive skills and age raising questions as we speak, it’s conceivable that he’ll be replaced in 3 years.
Therefore, there’s a high probability his replacement is a current major leaguer or noteworthy upper level player in the minors.
It just so happens that Posada’s contract expires at the same time as that of Jose Reyes.
In 2012, Jeter might replace Posada at DH and an ex-Met could be our shorstop.
It’s also possible that the Yankees develop their young arms into future front-end pitchers who can be used to trade for someone like Tulowitski or H. Ramirez or someone younger like Alcides Escobar.
“we’ll have to think about 3B (Youuukkk?)”
Is that a joke. Youk is 32 and has a 4 year contract I believe. He’ll be 36 when he’s available. I’d rather have ARod there only 1-2 years older.
dh/lf for 2 season and then its time for jeter to follow O’Niell and Mussina and the rest of them and retire.
Sam,
With all due respect this “controversy” is the making of your brethren in the media.
Is anybody talking about the “controversy” of what the Patriots should do with Tom Brady two years from now? Or, what the Lakers should do with Kobe Bryant two years from now? Or, what the Red Sox should do with David Ortiz two years from now? Or, what the Cardinals should do with Albert Pujols two years from now?
To paraphrase Allen Iverson, “We’re talkin’ ’bout two years from now, man”!
Its a non-issue until it becomes an issue. It won’t become an issue for two years.
Who knows where the Yankees and Jeter will be in two years?
Suppose the Yankees win the next two World Series, giving Jeter 6 rings, and he decides to marry Minka Kelly, start a family, and retire?
Suppose he has two excellent seasons, yet realizes his days at SS are over, and they work out a new deal for him to stay in NY and play another position?
Suppose both sides say #$#$ you, Jeter writes a book, saying Brian Cashman once called him “D-Fraud” and that made him leave?
We can speculate until we are blue in the face and its all a waste of time right now.
We’re talkin’ ’bout two years from now, man.
It ain’t no controversy until then.
Sorry to break into Allen Iverson but, this subject makes me do it because it falls into the catagory of, “much ado ’bout nuthin’.
No way Jeter wants to have this discussion now. The Yankees should start prelim talks with him and his agent after the season is over. Now is not the time.
Saucy.
Whoda thunk it.
Uncle Floyd was kind of a local hero in my area. He lived a town away from me in North Jersey….Yet never heard this song until about a year ago.
glad you liked it.
oh did anyone mention Giligan’s Island last night?
Such a frustrating show
Ed,
Lord, I hope so. That was a joke. He’s locked up until he’s 30-something. I still can’t understand how a man’s head can get so large.
**Keeping a low profile once he arrives in the Big Apple is one way he figures to stay away from the gossip of the New York tabloids. He has called Jason Giambi and Johnny Damon to get insight.**
who does Swisher think he is? A-Rod? LOL.
“We’re talkin’ ‘bout two years from now, man.”
True, but it might serve both parties to get it out of the way after the season is over instead of waiting until his contract expires. Nip it in the bud before it even turns into a controversy. Again, wait until the season is over and then ask Jeter’s agent for prelim talks. If they go nowhere, then at least they didn’t disrupt the season with nonsense.
m
February 6th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
GB7,
Thank you for bringing that up! It’s the sum of the parts. Not the parts.
————————————————————
Always has amazed me when people complain about somebody not hitting like a player at a certain position should hit when you have players that hit better than anybody else at their positions. Seems to me that NYY did pretty well with a left field combination that didn’t hit like left fielders should when they had Raines and Curtis, and, Spencer and Ledee or Knoblauch.
NYY isn’t letting Jeter go unless it’s his choice. They won’t take that kind of PR hit.
“‘It will be great to be a part of history,’ Swisher said. ‘The biggest challenge for me is to stay within myself. One of the greatest things about playing for the Yankees is that every city you go to – whatever day it is – it is always a packed house because everyone wants to see the Yankees play.’”
Enough to make one’s fandom shine like a beacon!
mel:
I guess my scarasm meter isn’t really working today.
Ed – spring training can’t start soon enough
February 6th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
GB: since the Jays DFA Russ Adams, take a flier on him as a utilty player?
————————————————————
He’s no better than what NYY has now.
this “controversy” is as pertinent as something that happened almost 2 years ago, not bring back joe torre.
All of it really is Much ado about nothing made up by the media….
But since this is the present, I am happy to talk about my ideal ice cream concoction. It would be in a very large dish. The flavor of ice cream wouldn’t really matter since I’m not a huge ice cream officiando, but I am an ice cream concoction fan.
It would have sliced bananas on the bottom, then the ice cream, then some tablespoons of peanut butter thrown on for good measure, chocolate chips if I had any to add, maybe some fudge sauce in the alternative, and the I would add fat free cool whip – you know, to save the calories!
Okay, nobody asked about ice cream. But I always operate best when I am dealing with present reality. I don’t excel at future stuff just because there are too many variables that can show up on the way to the forum.
“Seems to me that NYY did pretty well with a left field combination that didn’t hit like left fielders should when they had Raines and Curtis, and, Spencer and Ledee or Knoblauch.”
And yet the Yankees management continued to look for a long term option often letting these players hang around for a year or two.
Knoblauch was a nightmare in left which is why he found his way to the bench during most of the 2001 postseason, Raines was in a platoon with a perfectly capable leftfielder in Strawberry and Spencer never had more than 300 at bats in a season. Rondell White couldn’t handle it so management spent 20+ million on an unproven player from Japan.
The Yankees also had what was regarded as the best or second best pitching staff in baseball for the years these guys patrolled/platooned the outfield.
Swisher is asking Giambi for tips?
Giambi expression during his Oakland press conference last month was similar to Tim Robbins at the end of Shawshank Redemption
Trisha… I just had lunch and your post is still making me hungry. Anything with Chocalate and peanut butter works for me
So yes, it appears that Joel Sherman needs to stir the pot since the Torre spin has just about spun itself out and nobody really cares about the cryptmaster and his voodoo book.
And the press wonders why they don’t always get the respect and reverence they think they so deserve.
(Present company excluded, Sam!)
I disagree with anyone who thinks that the Yankees will do anything for purely sentimental reasons, even for Jeter. Just like I said about Torre recently, the Yankees have paid him well, and he has performed well. Neither side owes the other anything.
I like the idea that maybe they could offer Jeter a 2-3 year extension, that would take the wind out of all the stories. I also don’t see Jeter anywhere but at SS, except possibly 3B, but then you’d need to switch a-rod again, assuming a-rod would even want to do that at all. Plus I don’t think he would make a good DH. Why do you want a guy who may be slowing down in the outfield?
Meanwhile Jeter’s numbers as a fielder show him to be a bad SS, yet when I watch him I don’t think so. In fact, I think his range going to his left improved last season. I don’t see where he is costing the Yankees games in the field. I’m more interested in monitoring his hitting ability going forward.
Was Boggs your typical power hitting 3B? Or Brosius?
Not saying DJ should go to 3B but just another example of non traditional stats at certain positions
Standing O – I absolutely agree about that mix! A while back I ended up in the hospital with a thyroid infection (that I got from agreeing to go in an outside diptank in the middle of winter for some charity function – believe it or not.) Well when I got out of the hospital the doctor told me that my thyroid would remain active for at least the next two weeks so not to worry if I remained symptomatic despite the meds.
What that meant was that for two weeks, I was able to eat as much as I wanted of anything I wanted, remain in a dormant position, and not gain an ounce! Can you imagine being given THAT gift?
That ice cream concoction I mentioned was the first thing I threw together when I got home. Lord was it good!
StandingO’Neill
February 6th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Just last year alone:
Pedroia, Iwamura,Kinsler, Roberts, Utley, DeRosa, Hudson, Kendrick,Phillips, Polanco….
————————————————————
DeRosa played as much at other positions as he did at 2nd base. Hudson played about 2/3rds of a season and his average was higher. Let me know when he produces some runs. Kendrick hasn’t been healthy for a full season yet. He also doesn’t produce any runs and played 2/3rds of a season. Explain how Iramura had a better season (this should be interesting).
Steve B,
Great points.
Does Jeter pass the eye test? Sure a lot of balls make it through, but that’s the nature of the game. Trying to go up the middle is your best shot.
I think his range was hampered in ’07 due to leg (hamstring?) so of course he would have a bounceback season.
I’d be interested to see how Jeter will hit in a full season with a HAND injury.
This is a media created controversy.
Us, as fans, should not buy into this. Until Derek Jeter is seriously hurting this team’s chances of winning playing SS (and I’m sorry stat heads, but Jeter’s defense hasn’t been the reason we haven’t won a WS since 2000) then it’s time to talk about.
Right now it’s disrespectful for reporters to even ask Jeter this question. Seriously. It’s like going up to someone and telling them “you’re getting old and you suck, so what’s next”?
Jeter doesn’t deserve that.
I’d much rather a reporter ask him why he feels the need to hug and kiss every opposing player that crosses 2b than this question that has no bearing on this coming season.
Jeter can go out and win an MVP this season. It’s very possible. If his hand was indeed injured last season and that sapped his power, perhaps starting the season healthy might show he has some of his old ability.
If after this season he still proves he’s a glorified singles hitter who has slipped enough in defense to hurt the team, then you raise the question with Cashman and whoever the manager is.
Jeter has not slipped enough for this to even be on the menu right now.
Francesa reads the baseball prospectus article about putting Jeter in CF and Orlando Cabrera at SS this season (an article by the way he gave no credit to when he stole it’s core idea and passed it off as his own on his show) and now all of sudden we’re back to the Jeter in CF argument.
I have more confidence in going to war with Jeter as my SS the next 2 seasons than Cano as my 2b.
“Was Boggs your typical power hitting 3B? Or Brosius?”
Wade Boggs had a career OBP of .415! That more than makes up for his average power (he hit nearly 40 doubles a year).
Brosius was a very good defensive player, but 1998 aside he was terrible at the plate. He kind of fits run prevention mode that the Rays rode last year, but you would definitely be looking for an upgrade.
StandingO’Neill
February 6th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
“Seems to me that NYY did pretty well with a left field combination that didn’t hit like left fielders should when they had Raines and Curtis, and, Spencer and Ledee or Knoblauch.”
And yet the Yankees management continued to look for a long term option often letting these players hang around for a year or two.
Knoblauch was a nightmare in left which is why he found his way to the bench during most of the 2001 postseason, Raines was in a platoon with a perfectly capable leftfielder in Strawberry and Spencer never had more than 300 at bats in a season. Rondell White couldn’t handle it so management spent 20+ million on an unproven player from Japan.
The Yankees also had what was regarded as the best or second best pitching staff in baseball for the years these guys patrolled/platooned the outfield.
————————————————————
Damon isn’t exactly the protypical left fielder, either. NYY hasn’t had a real left fielder since Roy White, also not the typical left fielder. The last “prototypical left fielder for NYY was Tom Tresh.
Trisha…excuse me while I go stand around outside without my jacket for an hour…
GB7,
The more defensively-minded the position, the harder it is to find a player who can play that position and also hit well.
You don’t want Knoblauch playing LF because it’s easy to find some other LF who can hit much better.
The last thing the Yankees want to do is pay Jeter over $15 million a year to play LF (or, God forbid, DH) when they can use the same amount of money to bring in a true power hitter at that position.
I know for a fact what Giambi’s advise was to Swisher…
Grow a mustache.
Iwamura made fewer outs while preventing more from scoring on defense….hence a better season than Cano.
By the way….Strawberry never played more than 35 games in the outfield in any season he was with the Yankees (once). He was the DH.
G Love,
Absolutely. To me, its a joke the way people crap on Derek Jeter.
Its why some players hate coming to play for the Yankees.
If fans, fed by the media, crap on Jeter, other players feel, “what shot do I have with the fans”?
Everybody has short memories. He was having a great season until Cabrera crushed his hand with a pitch. He spent the rest of the year playing hurt, said nothing, and gets trashed for it.
All of these manufactured controversies take shape if gullible fans buy in. If they ignore it, this stuff goes away.
How he plays for the next two years dictates how the Yankees handle the situation.
Personally, I hope he plays so well, the decision becomes difficult.
If that happens, it probably means the Yankees have at least one more WS win under their belt.
The Yankees are a hell of a lot more sentimental than my Red Sox.
Theo Epstein has all the warmth of Michael Corleone during the baptism.
When a Red Sox shows the potential of decline, he tends not to be reupped.
It’s harsh, but more often than not turns out to be right.
There’s no bigger Pedro Martinez fan than me but if the Sox gave him 3 or 4 years it would have been crippling (and prevented Beckett&Dice K from coming over.)
But Jeter is one of those players, more than anyone in my lifetime, who NEEDS to be a Yankee for life.
More so than even Mattingly. Jeter is one of those guys who will get a monument.
You can’t have him finish in a different unform like Ruth with the Braves and Yogi with the Mets
“Damon isn’t exactly the protypical left fielder.”
I know, which is why they’ll let him walk after this season. Don’t for a second think Cashman was looking forward to seeing Damon play leftfield two years into his 4 year contract.
Games changed a lot since Roy White played.
The problem with moving Jeter to a traditional power position isn’t so much with his offense. It is the offense of the player replacing Jeter at short. We have been very spoiled for years by the offense we have gotten at short, catcher, and second base with Cano and Soriano. There are/have been very few shortstops better offensively than Jeter. If he is replaced by a league average offensive SS, that would be a severe downgrade; even considering Jeter’s age.
Folks… Bernie was almost as popular as Jetes, although not as much a ‘national icon’. None-the-less, when Bernie no longer helped the team, and in fact hurt it (compared to many other players available), most (not all) fans were happy to (or at least accepted) saying Goodbye.
It will be the same with Jeter. As long as he can post a .750 OPS and is not horrible at SS, we can keep him there. If his OPS is more in the .700 – .720 range, and his defense declines to well below average, there will be no place for him on a WS contending team.
Jeter has a lot of pride. I don’t believe he will continue to play if/when he becomes a below average player at his position.
Time will tell if Jetes is in decline, and how steep it is. But if you want the Yankees to be a quality team, Jeter will have to show them the money. This team will not carry him because of his fame.
Everybody has to hang them up sometime.
I sure can’t blame Sherman for writing a story about Jeter and his future, it’s the elephant in the room (or at least one of them) and there’s no point pretending it isn’t there.
That said, it’s way too soon for us fans to worry about it, although maybe not too soon for the Yanks to think about it.
No way an extension makes sense, in my opinion. Jeter’s ability to play shortstop and his current contract don’t necessarily dovetail. Best to wait to see how he does in 2010.
GB, I think management is getting too sophisticated and competition is getting too close to go with the tried and true “we’ve got it at other positions, so we can carry this position” approach. The moneyball horse is out of the barn and IMO there’s no going back. To win, teams are more and more going to have to get every edge they can.
Green…you really want to use the “produce runs” argument to defend a player?
Look I’m enjoying this debate and for the record I really like Cano. But last year was a disaster for him. His biggest problem is his ability to NOT MAKE OUTS. He needs to hit .300 just to be an average player. Throw in the fact that his defense seemed to take a nose dive last year and he’s lost a lot of value.
Can he rebound? Absolutely, but he’s got a lot of work to do.
StandingO’Neill
February 6th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Iwamura made fewer outs while preventing more from scoring on defense….hence a better season than Cano.
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Keep dreaming. You need to let go of Bill James’ underwear. His idiotic numbers are designed to get suckers to buy his books.
“Iwamura made fewer outs while preventing more from scoring on defense….hence a better season than Cano.”
Iwamura actually made six more outs, but did so with 70+ more plate appearances than Cano. FWIW, baseballreference.com’s runs created category suggest Iwamura created more runs in ’08.
Jeter’s situation isn’t the elephant in the room for a long time. Fixating on it now is just a way to start to lay the groundwork for a future controversy that may not even materialize.
There are going to be a lot more pressing problems before Jeter’s deal is an issue.
To witness how spoiled we are as Yankee fans, we need look no further than the case of Cano this year. He had what I believe will be his worst career season by far, yet he was still one of the top offensive second basemen. At least top half. Yet, it seems like the majority of Yankee fans have wanted to dump him for whatever they can get. And then sign Orlando Hudson, who is much older than Cano, and doesn’t have half of his offensive talent.
Jeter is the elephant in the room? More like the elephant that might slowly lumber into the room some time for now. But randy l.’s lack of objectivity in discussing Brian Cashman is in the room *right now*! From the end of the previous thread:
“cashman is underestimating the task and not doing enough”
How do you know he’s underestimating the task?
randy, you have real baseball experience and smarts, but you’re on firmer ground when you concede that you have a personal vendetta against Brian Cashman and that you’re unable to look at him objectively.
Once people know that, a lot of what you say makes a lot more sense. For example, when you said you loved Torre’s book because it was part of the “struggle between those who’ve played the game and those who haven’t”, a lot of people read that and scratched their heads. But it makes more sense in the context of you hate Cashman, you assumed Torre criticized Cashman in the book, therefore you loved the book. You just took that logic to ridiculous extremes, such as saying that Larry King’s questions (“Obama… what do you think about him?”) were tough.
LOST?
Any Lost fans out there?
Is this really as good as people tell me?
I watched the first season – liked it but that’s about it.
Should I rent the whole thing?
Any other series/mini series you can suggest?
Jeremy
February 6th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
GB7,
The more defensively-minded the position, the harder it is to find a player who can play that position and also hit well.
You don’t want Knoblauch playing LF because it’s easy to find some other LF who can hit much better.
The last thing the Yankees want to do is pay Jeter over $15 million a year to play LF (or, God forbid, DH) when they can use the same amount of money to bring in a true power hitter at that position.
————————————————————
I didn’t want Knoblauch in the first place. He was a better left fielder than a 2nd baseman after his 2nd year.
“Keep dreaming. You need to let go of Bill James’ underwear. His idiotic numbers are designed to get suckers to buy his books.”
Wow Good comeback, clearly I was completely wrong…
That’s the point. Let’s see where Jeter is in 2 years when the decision is ready to be made.
I’m a huge Yankees fan. I would have no problems with the Yankees walking away from a severely declined Jeter in 2 seasons if his play is hurting the team.
I would be dead set against giving him the loyalty extension for big money.
I was dead set against giving Jorge the 4th year.
But again, that decision is 2 years away. There is nothing wrong with Jeter’s game right now that warrants reporters pestering the GM and the player about moving him from his position.
He’s not Cal Ripken Jr. clinging to SS in name only.
He’s not a wooden Indian at SS.
He plays a good SS, positions himself well and has the ability to make a big play. If he gets his doubles power back with that kind of defense he’s an All Star.
Let’s see what he has left before condemning him to anything.
If in 2 years he proves he’s no longer a SS and he can’t hit with enough power or OBP to warrant an OF/DH spot then the Yankees play hard ball with him and walk away.
He’s had a long run and made a ton of money and the Yankees will owe him nothing.
The only thing, I feel, he is owed is some respect because this is a very premature argument that isn’t warranted at this point in time.
if anybody thinks the yankees are going to let derek jeter get 3000 hits and end his career anywhere else is delusional. he’ll also get to choose when he stops playing shortstop. he’s our ripken.
Uncle Ellsworth…definitely recommend Lost, but you have to start watching it from the beginning.
some time *from* now, that is.
I think Jeter is the #1 athlete representative of a team, and would feel nothing short of wrong to move him.
All that needs to be said, is he is the Brett Favre of the modern day Yankees and has 3 more rings. How do you value that type of loyalty and team committment?
StandingO’Neill
February 6th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
“Damon isn’t exactly the protypical left fielder.”
I know, which is why they’ll let him walk after this season. Don’t for a second think Cashman was looking forward to seeing Damon play leftfield two years into his 4 year contract.
Games changed a lot since Roy White played.
————————————————————
Until NYY has a leadoff hitter that hits as well as Damon, NYY will keep him.
Thanks StandingO
“I didn’t want Knoblauch in the first place. He was a better left fielder than a 2nd baseman after his 2nd year.”
Shame he completely lost the ability to hit by 2001 at just 32 years old.
“Until NYY has a leadoff hitter that hits as well as Damon, NYY will keep him.”
So do you think they’ll bring Damon back in 2010?
Uncle Ellsworth, I’m a big LOST fan too. If you watched every episode of the first season and aren’t into it, you might not ever be, but if you’re borderline on it, I would recommend boning up on the first season plotlines and then starting into season two. And avoid watching any LOST promos that come on ABC or ESPN now, they’ll just confuse and potentially spoil you.
Another aspect of this non-issue, is, IMO, the Yankees have seen how great relationships can turn sour hen a player feels he is done wrong, (Bernie). I don’t think the Yankees would ever want that type of stain on their relationship with Jeter.
Jeter’s never really been one for controversy. He’s been expert at shooting it down, learning from the master (Torre).
I have no doubt he will take this all the way to free agency, and there will be some scares the way there was with Mariano and Jorge. But Jeter’s another one of those guys that you just have to overpay. I’ve said it before, I think that for better or worse, Jeter is going to be this team’s shortstop until the day he decides to hang it up. I know that’s extremely rare, but this is an extremely rare situation. Even if it means passing up the possibility of signing someone like Jose Reyes or Rollins, they just have to do it and hope for the best.
SJ44 got it right.
This is an ongoing non-story. As such, calling the speculation stupid would be glamourizing it.
Barry Lane
“He had what I believe will be his worst career season by far, yet he was still one of the top offensive second basemen. At least top half.”
Mark…not being spoiled at all, that quote simply is not true. But 2008 aside he definitely was among the best in baseball, so I wouldn’t trade him away just yet. Lets see what he does in 2010, personally I think he’s going to have a big season.
Are there odds on who’s going to be the leadoff hitter in ’10? Gardner’s a longshot, but wouldn’t that be a hoot if it turned out that he CAN actually hit major league pitching?
Oh, Uncle Ellsworth, I also would recommend the modern incarnation of Battlestar Galactica. Rent the first season, I think you’ll be hooked. Unless you object to Edward James Olmos’ grizzled face.
Apparently the Yanks aren’t out of the Andruw Jones mix: http://www.fannation.com/truth.....-jones-mix
“Jeter is the elephant in the room? More like the elephant that might slowly lumber into the room some time for now”
Oh Nick, I wish I had said that.
StandingO’Neill
February 6th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
“Until NYY has a leadoff hitter that hits as well as Damon, NYY will keep him.”
So do you think they’ll bring Damon back in 2010?
————————————————————
It’s more of a pity that he forgot to field his position at age 30.
“His idiotic numbers are designed to get suckers to buy his books.”
Btw what idiotic numbers are you referring to? Better get this info to the GM’s around baseball as quite a few of them are now using his statistics.
“Apparently the Yanks aren’t out of the Andruw Jones mix:”
What would it take to get them out of it?
Yeah, the idea that Cashman should sit down Jeter and talk to him about a position switch in his future right now has to be the stupidest idea I’ve heard in a long time.
That’s great management.
Tell one of your best most iconic players you think he’s losing it and he’s hurting the team or may do so in the future in his current position before he actually has lost it and has hurt the team in his current position.
Brain surgeons.
It’s official: Mike Francesa is literally obsessed with Joba being in the pen.
Does he have to bring the topic up to every guess on the show?
Geez!
For a glimpse of how the Yankees would negotiate with a declining Jeter, check out what they did to Andy.
They know that Jeter would never play for another team if he’s already gotten his 3000 hits.
Sam,
While I don’t personally agree with it, I admire your fearless decision to go with the less popular (but still correct) spelling “dialog,” rather than the more common “dialogue.”
“It’s more of a pity that he forgot to field his position at age 30.”
A) It is, he’s far more valuable to the team if he could play center.
B) You never answer my question, do you bring him back in 2010?
StandingO’Neill
February 6th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
“Until NYY has a leadoff hitter that hits as well as Damon, NYY will keep him.”
So do you think they’ll bring Damon back in 2010?
————————————————————
Unless he breaks both legs, I don’t see why not. He’s a damned good fielding left fielder and there aren’t many better leadoff hitters anywhere else. NYY certainly doesn’t have better options.
I won’t be surprised if Swisher ends up in CF as the starter this year. Gardner’s “D” would sure be fun to watch all season, though.
As far as Jeter, I think he ends up in LF when his SS days are over.
I don’t think there is any question Jeter won’t be playing SS for the Yankees in 2011.
Doesn’t mean he won’t be on the team. He just won’t be playing SS.
I think the Yankees know it, deep down inside he knows it, and things will get worked out.
Its just not something to get worked up about 2 years prior to it happening.
“So do you think they’ll bring Damon back in 2010?”
Wouldn’t do more than a one or two year deal at something less than $13M per ($9M-$10M range), but he still appears to have game.
I’ll just add my voices to the chorus that is singing the “It’s too early to talk about” tune and “it won’t be a problem” tunes.
Plus, Jeter has never let the media dictate his actions. I expect him to maintain the same professionalism as his career nears its eventual end as he’s always shown. I believe Jeter will retire before he is a drag on a team; I think the Yankees will let Jeter take the lead in that regard. I think if he is a few hits away from 3,000 if he is at the end of his current contract, he will get an “extra” year to do it as a Yankee and perhaps retire right after – if the Yankees are set up at shortstop. I think Jeter is too well-together to be a “hanger-on.”
I agree with whoever said that the more important question is will there be someone to take his place? (Well, no one can “take his place,” but you know what I mean.)
We need to keep getting younger. I love Damon but I don’t see him coming back after his contract is up.
I can’t figure out why people think Cano was a good hitting second baseman last year. Of the second basemen that had 450+ ABs last year, I’d say he was one of the worst offensively.
The fake controversy is whether to move Jeter out of SS before his contract expires. There is zero chance of this happening. Jeter is still an excellent SS and there are no top prospects or FAs ready to replace him before 2011.
The real controversy is whether the Yankees will give Jeter more than 2-3 more years when his contract expires. Even if Jeter plays at an elite level through 2010, the Yankees will not benefit from giving him $20 million a year through age 42. There will be a time when Jeter can’t play SS anymore, and his value will decline dramatically at just about any other position.
If we’re going to discuss Jeter’s future, we shouldn’t confuse these two issues. No one who knows what he’s talking about is saying Jeter should not be our SS in 2009.
“Unless he breaks both legs, I don’t see why not. He’s a damned good fielding left fielder and there aren’t many better leadoff hitters anywhere else. NYY certainly doesn’t have better options.”
Not saying I agree or disagree, but a lot of Yankees fan are going to be foaming at the mouth for Matt Holliday.
Nick In SF
Thanks from what I’ve heard about how LOST is shaping up – I’m gonna check it out – I’ve been assured there is a “plan”
by Abrams where i wasn’t so sure back then.
I got turned on to BSG Last year totally hooked. I hope it has an end worthy of the show.
So far this season not enough Cylons (6s & 8s) or Baltar- and Thank gods Starbuck is “back”
Tom Zarek needs to see the business end of an airlock quick!
If I was a betting man, I’d bet JJ Hardy is the Yankee SS in 2011, Jeter is the starting LF (provided he doesn’t retire or isn’t healthy), and life goes on in the Bronx.
** that should read Jeter is “too well put-together” – having a really draggy day myself.
if Gardner becomes an OBP machine he will be our leadoff hitter for the next 10 years.
Uncle Ellsworth, I took my parents to see him perform at a bar in Jersey a few years ago. He was great and my parents loved it.
Bob Levy opened for him and made me come on stage to do a shot with him…
My sister mentioned that uncle floyd still performs weekly at a place she passes a lot. Not sure if that sign is still up though. she told me about this a year or two ago…
“I’d bet JJ Hardy is the Yankee SS in 2011″
Interesting. Hardy an FA by then? I know the Brewers believe in Alcides Escobar. I’m thinking they try to move Hardy for pitching after ’09.
Nick In SF
Thanks from what I’ve heard about how LOST is shaping up- I’m gonna check it out – I’ve been assured there is a “plan”
by Abrams where i wasn’t so sure back then.
I got turned on to BSG Last year totally hooked. I hope it has an end worthy of the show.
So far this season not enough Cylons (6s & 8s) or Baltar- and Thank gods Starbuck is “back”
Tom Zarek needs to see the business end of an airlock quick!
saucy -
I think I saw a sign advertising Uncle Floyd performing in a small town in central NJ near East Brunswick. Recently – Jan or Dec.
The first person to know if a position change time has arrived will be Derek Jeter himself. He will be the judge and the Yankees will respect that fact.
Sometime during the 2010 season, his agent Casey Close and Cashman will begin the negotiation process.
There will be no talk of Derek Jeter testing the waters to see his worth on the free agent market.
Until then, useless media speculation serves no purpose and should be ignored.
I can’t see us going for Matt Holliday. Though I couldn’t see us getting AJ after we got CC and plucking Texeira after getting AJ AND CC. Well, I saw it, but I thought it unlikely.
Matt Holliday will get a big payday. Or a decent one if he goes to Boston.
Boston needs to reload at some point. I think they resign Bay. What position does Holliday play? Can they fit both in the OF? Theo will need to make a big splash as far as bringing in a big name. Pizzuti’s not going to satiate the masses.
“Trisha…excuse me while I go stand around outside without my jacket for an hour…”
StandingO, it’s a little more complicated. I think what you need is some brackish water that has been contaminated by others’ germs, and then you need to drink some of it.
Gross, I know.
It’s funny, if for some reason Jeter announced tomorrow that he couldn’t play SS anymore, JJ Hardy would probably be the first guy the Yankees go after. And for a decent and fair package they Yankees could probably get him.
However 3 years down the line, chances are he’s moved on to a new team whose already locked him down to a long term deal.
My hedge on Hardy being the 2011 SS is Carmen Angelini. If he blows up, and moves quickly through the system, I could envision a scenario in which Angelini plays about 70-80 games at SS and Jeter fills in at SS and DH (or LF) in 2011.
In 1996, the original plan called for Tony Fernandez to play SS, with Jeter filling in on occasion to break in slowly. That changed when Fernandez got hurt.
If Angelini becomes a “Jeter-like” prospect, I could envision a similar scenario.
Absent that, I think Hardy could be the guy in 2011 because I know a lot of people in the organization really like his game.
Nick In SF
Thanks, from what I’ve heard about how LOST is shaping up – I’m gonna check it out – I’ve been assured there is a “plan”
by Abrams where i wasn’t so sure back then.
I got turned on to BSG Last year totally hooked. I hope it has an end worthy of the show.
So far this season not enough Cylons (6s & 8s) or Baltar- and Thank gods Starbuck is “back”
Tom Zarek needs to see the business end of an airlock quick!
StandingO, it’s a little more complicated. I think what you need is some brackish water that has been contaminated by others’ germs, and then you need to drink some of it.
Gross, I know.
Well I can dream I guess
. So getting back to baseball…where do you stand on Damon? lol
SJ44
February 6th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
If I was a betting man, I’d bet JJ Hardy is the Yankee SS in 2011, Jeter is the starting LF (provided he doesn’t retire or isn’t healthy), and life goes on in the Bronx.
————————————————————
Not sure if you’ve seen him, yet, but, just how good does Addison Maruszak look to you?
I watched Angelini most of this year and he was rough, but, he’s got a lot of Derek Jeter qualities, too. He doesn’t give up. He just needs somebody to help him clean up the rough edges on defense. He’ll be fine on offense. He has good line drive and gap power and speed. Find whoever fixed a young Derek Jeter and get him to work.
m,
Why wouldn’t the Yanks go for Holliday? They’ll be clearing Damon’s, Matsui’s and Nady’s contracts, and probably Pettitte’s (oh that hurts!), plus AJax and Hughes will slot in and lower the Yanks’ overall payroll requirements.
In that context, Holliday is practically a Yank already.
Saucy I try to find him
Nick in SF:
I can’t post my long answer for some reason.
Short reponse:
I Will get Lost.
And Tom Zarek needs to see an Airlock Right Quick!~
Most likely the only person not worried about the so called controversy is Derek Jeter. His concerns are winning the 27th Championship for the Yankees…as it should be.
Go Yankees 2009 !!!!
Well, we know Jeter’s replacement won’t be Erick Almonte again, who is now 30, and has played here in Toledo for the Mud Hens the last two years.
Just in case you wondered whatever happned to him ….. he’s been banished to Ohio.
See Andruw Jones – think Raul Mondesi.
WYH,
We’ll see. A lot will depends on how he hits in a new league and away from Coors. But the Colliseum is brutal. If he can hit there, he can hit anywhere. So here’s to you, New York, New Yoooorrrrrk!
If Boston has their sights set on him, they may play the game differently. I don’t think they liked losing their last round of chicken with Boras.
You know Standing, that’s really why I typically defer to the Yankees in all things Yankee. I don’t know what to think about Damon. I love the guy, I love his grit, I love that he plays as hard as any player I have seen play – if not harder, I love that he always wants to be on the field and will play through injuries and never say a word. I think he is a great teammate to have around.
So I sit back with all of this and trust that the Yankees are watching carefully and will utilize Damon wisely and continue to do so until they believe that to continue further than that will not be beneficial to either the Yankees or Damon (probably in that order.)
SJ44…I’d love to see Angelini come up through the system, but he’s got a ton to prove in 2010. Opinions of him seemed to strongly vary when he was drafted. I heard everything from “Yankees got a steal in the 10th round” to “utility player at best”. His 2009 campaign didn’t do a whole lot to prove the utility camp wrong, but people will point to Jeter’s slow start down in low A after he was drafted.
In no way is 2010 a make or break year for a guy who was drafted out of highschool and giving a million dollar bonus, but we need to see some progess to keep hope alive.
“Oh, Uncle Ellsworth, I also would recommend the modern incarnation of Battlestar Galactica. Rent the first season, I think you’ll be hooked. Unless you object to Edward James Olmos’ grizzled face.”
This season is turning out to be much better than the last so far. It was good to see Starbuck blazing with guns again.
As for LOST, I remain in awe of it’s sheer brilliance.
My crystal ball tells me that in 2011 the Red Sox and Rays will be excellent, and the Orioles will have emerged on the scene as a serious threat.
If that is correct, the Yanks may think twice or even three times about what to do with Derek.
m-
Here’s hoping that the Sox’ relations with Boras stay strained!
“And Tom Zarek needs to see an Airlock Right Quick!”
If Roslyn hadn’t been sick, he would have been. That’s her claim to fame.
“You know Standing, that’s really why I typically defer to the Yankees in all things Yankee.”
That’s a phenomenal answer, lol. I’d love to steal that but I am far too opinionated.
I’ve heard Torre had some unflattering things to say about Damon in his book, or at least that some players on the team had unflattering things to say about Damon. Found that hard to believe because he seems like such an easy going guy on the field.
Please, spare us a fake media controversy about what’s going to happen to Derek Jeter in 21 months. Can’t we at least get a respite after the Torre book?
2009 Spring Training opens in a week and writers are trying to stir the pot about who’s on the roster in Spring Traing 2011? Pathetic.
How ’bout we concentrate on what potentially is the best pitching staff the Yankees have assembled in 10 years? That subject is a whole lot more relevant.
“See Andruw Jones – think Raul Mondesi.”
Raul Mondesi takes offense to that comparison.
“Not saying I agree or disagree, but a lot of Yankees fan are going to be foaming at the mouth for Matt Holliday”
I’m guessing the Yankees may not be. Seems to me, Cashman is at least trying to put some premium on roster flexibility. Left field is a spot where you can probably get pretty good production for a lot less money and years than Holliday will require.
LOST fans, anyone notice who they talked about yesterday right after sawyer saw clair gives birth to Aaron…locke was talking about Boone…Aaron Boone….things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Thanks Laura Glad I asked about Lost I’m Sold.
Good to see Starbuck back to her Bad Self.
I’m not really buying Gaita as the leader of a mutiny though-He’s reeeally POed about that leg uh?
Angelini is no utility player. Justin Snyder will be a utility player. Angelini was 18-19 years old last year. He’s going to be fine, until he plays SS in NY for the first time and idiot fans boo him.
Pete, or anyone who can find it in the archives.
Can you find Pete’s prediction for the 2009 opening day roster?
possible free agent SS for 2011:
Jimmy Rollins
Jose Reyes
SteveB-
The Yanks will lose a lot of offensive production after 2010. They’ll need to get it back somewhere, and the 2009 FA class is not overpowering.
I think they’ll be pretty tempted to chase Holliday.
I think he did one for one of his season preview guides. Or was that Baseball Prospectus?
Rollins-yes
Reyes-no
“He’s going to be fine, until he plays SS in NY for the first time and idiot fans boo him.”
Sadly this is probably true. If Arod gets booed no one will be immune.
Rollins-yes
Reyes-no
Really? You rather Rollins than Reyes?
“I’m not really buying Gaita as the leader of a mutiny though-He’s reeeally POed about that leg uh?”
He’s not ruthless enough. Another person probably would have killed Adama and Tigh on the spot.
I’m not worried though; I’m betting that Gaeta will get what he’s got coming to him.
Since we’re geeking out here, I have it on good authority that Mr. Gaeta’s actions and attitude make more sense if you watch the webisodes that came out a little bit before this last batch of episodes arrived. You can see them on scifi.com or download them for free from itunes.
“Personally, I hope he plays so well, the decision becomes difficult.
If that happens, it probably means the Yankees have at least one more WS win under their belt.”
Seriously… go Jete!
Who and how many would the Marlins want for Hanley Ramirez?
They are always cost-conscience. The Tigers got them to part with Cabrerra.
“I think they’ll be pretty tempted to chase Holliday.”
I’m hoping Jason Bay realizes the value in being a FA next offseason vs. resigning with the Sox right now.
Holliday is almost certainly going to be overpaid and I hope the Yankees aren’t the ones doing it.
“I’ve heard Torre had some unflattering things to say about Damon in his book, or at least that some players on the team had unflattering things to say about Damon. Found that hard to believe because he seems like such an easy going guy on the field.”
I heard that Torre helped Salmon Rushdie with the Satanic Verses and that’s why they were in the third person! He told Salmon to go nasty because it sells books.
He had tried to get himself written into some episodes of “Spin City” because he figured he was right in LA where the studio was located, and it had a NY flare. But he was disappointed to find out that it wasn’t a series anymore and that he was behind the times – just like he was behind the times in NY and couldn’t land a series anymore there either.
I heard that the latest thing he is doing is trying to find someone to write a screenplay based on his book. It would be called Spin it Like Torre.
I’ve heard nothing but good things about Damon. I believe those things. I believe little to nothing that Salmon Torre says about anything. He is the king – of sour grapes.
Reyes will turn 27 during the 2011 season. Rollins will be 32. Advantage – Reyes!
GB,
I saw Maruszak play a lot in college. He got better every year he played.
I didn’t get a chance to see him in short season play last year. He’s a guy I’m interested in seeing play this year to see if he improves each year as a pro at the same rate he did when he was in college.
Not sure about Holliday. Is he just a “Coors Field guy” or is he more than that? Time will tell.
I don’t think the Yankees want to bog themselves down with yet another 100 million dollar contract. You know that’s going to be the minimal starting point for Boras after this season.
I also think Jeter’s future may tie into how deep they go (if they go at all) for Holliday.
If the team sees Jeter’s future in LF, I don’t see them making a move for Holliday.
RF also comes into play. Can Holliday play RF? Is that an option? No idea.
Its good though that Holliday got traded to the AL. It gives the Yankees a free look as to whether or not he’s worth the money next year.
“Since we’re geeking out here, I have it on good authority that Mr. Gaeta’s actions and attitude make more sense if you watch the webisodes that came out a little bit before this last batch of episodes arrived. You can see them on scifi.com or download them for free from itunes.”
That is true. After watching the webisodes, I wasn’t totally shocked by what he’s doing.
Biggest problem with Hanley is that he is not a good defensive SS.
rodg12,
Well since you put it that way.
Still, Reyes needs to mature a lot if he ever wanted to be a Yankee.
Are you still on cloud 9? I’m in a very good mood today.
“I’ve heard nothing but good things about Damon. I believe those things. I believe little to nothing that Salmon Torre says about anything. He is the king – of sour grapes.”
I realized I’ve been sitting in front of a computer for far too long today when after I read this I asked myself “why would Salomon Torres (former Brewers closer) say anything bad about Johnny Dammon…”
I take it you weren’t at any of Torre’s book signings? lol
“If the team sees Jeter’s future in LF, I don’t see them making a move for Holliday.”
Now this is my biggest problem when people argue that it doesn’t matter if you have one below average player in a typical power position spot. Because not only are you basically admitting you have a hole in your lineup, you’re also blocking a position for someone else who could be better, and in this case is better.
“I take it you weren’t at any of Torre’s book signings? lol”
I’m about halfway through and I can’t figure out what the big controversy is about the book. Must be a bang-up second half. Maybe I should have read it back to front?
I think another SS prospect to watch for along with Carmen Angelini is Gerrison Lassiter.
Standing O’Neill -
Apparently there was a brief time in Damon’s Yankee life where he was really battling his physical ailments (legs) and whether it was bad enough to stop playing. He was reportedly not his usual fun self during this period. An unnamed player expressed that guys didn’t want him around anymore. Once he started feeling better and playing better, no more problem.
Joe Torre in the book questioned the commitment of both Damon and Giambi, who was also playing hurt (plantar fasciitis).
“Still, Reyes needs to mature a lot if he ever wanted to be a Yankee.”
To be fair Rollins had to be disciplined by his manager last year at least two times if I remember correctly.
The New York Daily News reports that Brian Bruney has lost 16 pounds this offseason and a total of 40 pounds since the end of 2007.
Thanks Doreen. I haven’t read the book yet but I will eventually. Sounds like a crappy thing for said player to do. It was probably Melky trying to get some playing time, jk
Wave Your Hat -
Right up until the chapter on ARod it’s really nothing at all. And ARod’s appearance really just coincides with 3 pitchers leaving the rotation and a lot of other dynasty guys leaving. So, yeah, to climate change begins about 2004 (and most of the excerpts that are producing the backlash).
“I realized I’ve been sitting in front of a computer for far too long today when after I read this I asked myself “why would Salomon Torres (former Brewers closer) say anything bad about Johnny Dammon…””
“I take it you weren’t at any of Torre’s book signings? lol”
What really annoyed me when I showed up for the one at Doubleday is that they didn’t allow me to take the howitzer I had with me inside! I tried to explain that the locks on my car doors were broken and I was afraid that someone would see it on the seat of the car and take it and maybe hurt someone! They said I could check it at the front desk but I was afraid that someone might play with it and get hurt. I don’t understand why they were being hardass about it and wouldn’t let me take it through the line. I mean did they think I was going to use it?????
Thanks for making me laugh StandingO. You made my Friday.
True, Rollins will admit that he deserved it.
He’s also an MVP and one of the leaders of the team. World Championship team.
“If I was a betting man, I’d bet JJ Hardy is the Yankee SS in 2011, Jeter is the starting LF (provided he doesn’t retire or isn’t healthy), and life goes on in the Bronx.”
the way cashman treated bernie williams was a character flaw. cashman will do no better with jeter, but jeter has a lot left in the tank. he’s got a young body. i expect he’ll be there after cashman so they may not be on a collision course. left field sounds fine to me. makes sense.
nick in sf-
didn’t mean to not respond. i’ve been busy with some errands. you situation and mine is like two stockbrokers who are selling their ideas to clients. what matters is who’s right about results- which one is right so clients make money. they don’t care why. they care if the broker is right.
i’m not into this silly little “prove stuff” you’re into. the proof is in the predictions. what do you predict? you go on and on about how no one can predict that joba would get injured. well , i did. same with hughes.
you don’t want to go back and pull what i said at the time and what you said. you say people notice what we say and they can decide. well ,have them look at your predictions and then look at mine.
i’m not going to waste my time proving to you how i knew. the way i knew is through intuition based on experience. if you don’t believe i have baseball intuitions based on experiences that prove correct more often than not, than don’t pay any attention to them. no one’s forcing you to read them . if you want to point out things i’ve been wrong about, that’s fair game.
i’m saying that it’s highly likely one of the yankee starters in 2009 will go down for at least 15 starts because of the collective injury potential. i can’t prove it ahead of time. i’m saying it based on intuition based on experience.
there will be a season. there will be an answer if i’m right or not. i’m not going to try to prove how i know. i don’t know how i know, but i’m pretty sure. that’s the best answer you’re going to get. you can’t prove intuition ahead of time, but you can look at the results of the predictions based on intuition to see if i’m full of crap or not.
if i am, don’t bother pay any attention to what i say. it’s not complicated.
It will be interesting to see how the Mets handle their core in a few seasons. Reyes is in line for a mega mega contract. Beltran is up after 2011. Wright is up after 2013 and would also get a monster deal.
“An unnamed player expressed that guys didn’t want him around anymore. Once he started feeling better and playing better, no more problem.”
Yeah the universal “unnamed player.”
alvaro espinoza’s hipster frames
February 6th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
if anybody thinks the yankees are going to let derek jeter get 3000 hits and end his career anywhere else is delusional. he’ll also get to choose when he stops playing shortstop. he’s our ripken.
=====
The Yankees love historic players. No Yankee has ever gotten 3000 hits in pinstripes. Jeter needs 465 to hit 3000. He will need 2011 to achieve the mark. My guess is a contract extension at the same salary for 2011, and mutual options for the following season. Jeter is a proud man and won’t hang on too long.
SJ44
February 6th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
GB,
I saw Maruszak play a lot in college. He got better every year he played.
————————————————————
Thanks, SJ. I’ll get to see Maruszak in about 70 games or so this year. I only got to see his numbers, so I didn’t know. I anxious to see him and Pat Venditte, if for no other reason than a chance to see a curiosity. It would be nice to see him become something. Shive interests me, too.
m -
Yeah, what a great game. I was really impressed with the physical play of both Gasol and Odom last night (although there were still times when Gasol got pushed around more than he should have). And Kobe is just Kobe. I was watching at a sports bar and after he made that second 3 I just stood up and hollered ‘Best In The World!’ Really encouraging that we could beat them in Boston without Bynum.
“Thanks for making me laugh StandingO. You made my Friday.”
Anytime, whatever makes the weekend approach quicker. Still getting that ice cream too
Wave, right up until the time DT told his wife that some friends had called her a fat cow, his love letter was also pretty uncontroversial.
LOST fans
Thanks for the input
My friend told me Al Trautwig -of all people- has a LOST Blog or somesuch.
Thought you may be interested.
The lack of free agents next offseason = lots of free agents in the following seasons.
World Series will be won and lost over the free agent signings in 2011 and 2012… let’s hope “the new Yankee paradigm” sticks to “the plan”.
“He’s also an MVP and one of the leaders of the team. World Championship team.”
He is a World Champion I can’t disagree with that, but David Wright would like his MVP trophy back.
Wrong. The next big story is the firing of Girardi. Just ask Pete.
It’s apparent that it’s important to note that in that section of the book about Damon, Damon is quoted pretty extensively and seemed to have no problem talking about what took place.
“the way cashman treated bernie williams was a character flaw.”
Come on Randy, one post not ripping on Cashman, please….
And really what did Cashman do that was so wrong?
Re: Reyes vs. Rollins
“Reyes will turn 27 during the 2011 season. Rollins will be 32. Advantage – Reyes!”
Precisely.
JJ Hardy is also a possibility after 2010 but that means Jeter would have to play another position in 2011 as Posada will still be under contract.
If they can hold off until 2012, Jeter can DH and Reyes can play SS.
The Mets are more likely to re-sign Reyes than the Brewers Hardy but the Brewers might also deal away Hardy long before he reaches FA since Escobar is near if not ML-ready.
I’d rather take my chances and wait for Reyes who wouldn’t cost any prospects than trade for Hardy and force Jeter to play out of position for one year.
If the plan is to wait for Reyes and the Mets keep him, the Yankees will be required to trade away talent for a shortstop replacement anyways, so it’s at worst no different than the Hardy situation. At best, the Yankees sign Reyes without forfeiting any talent.
Wave -
The book will speak for itself.
It’s a difficult question to answer, what to do with Jeter. I don’t see where you could put him if not at short, maybe 2nd, and move Cano? I don’ see Jeter as a DH type and I always thought that would be Arod’s spot in the future. As far as money I would give him around 3yrs/in the 30-36 million range(avg 10-12 mill per)? You can’t give him something outrageous at that age.
I have to ask Sam what Jeter making $$$ has to do with anything…….Does he even think Jeter is a good ballplayer?
Per Joel Sherman, Jeter sucks. I get it……..all I see on other boards is how lousy a hitter he is, what a bad fielder he is, etc….. I’m tired of it. I believe in players being criticized where justified, but in this case, I feel that people want to tear Jeter down because he’s an icon. He’s very likely past his most productive years ,but he’s still a terrific player and a wonderful representative not just of the Yankees, but of the game. This talk of his decline is premature. I honestly believe he will have a bounce back year -nearly getting his hand broken didn’t help any last year.
Jeter and the Yankees have a great relationship. When the time comes, they will sit down and figure out something that will be mutually beneficial to both of them. I do not, in any way, anticipate any hard feelings. For myself, I can’t pretend not to be sentimental – I don’t want Jeter to end his career in any laundry other than pinstripes.
I have to ask Sam what Jeter making $$$ has to do with anything…….Does he even think Jeter is a good ballplayer?
Per Joel Sherman, Jeter sucks. I get it……..all I see on other boards is how lousy a hitter he is, what a bad fielder he is, etc….. I’m tired of it. I believe in players being criticized where justified, but in this case, I feel that people want to tear Jeter down because he’s an icon. He’s very likely past his most productive years ,but he’s still a terrific player and a wonderful representative not just of the Yankees, but of the game. This talk of his decline is premature. I honestly believe he will have a bounce back year -nearly getting his hand broken didn’t help any last year.
Jeter and the Yankees have a great relationship. When the time comes, they will sit down and figure out something that will be mutually beneficial to both of them. I do not, in any way, anticipate any hard feelings. For myself, I can’t pretend not to be sentimental – I don’t want Jeter to end his career in any laundry other than pinstripes.
How did Cashman treat Bernie Williams? Invited him to come to spring training to try out. Bernie could no longer run, nor could he throw. Hmmm. I think that was a pretty generous offer. Or perhaps the Yankees should have continued to go with a player who couldn’t play his position? That was definitely the way to win the world series again!
Just my opinion of course.
One of the first questions Mike asks Yogi is about Joba to the pen – he has GOT to be kidding. He continues to interrupt Yogi (and his other guests), trying to finish their thoughts. Oy vey.
Has anyone read the new Yogi biography (by Allen Barra, I think)? I may pick that up – that should be a fun read.
Randy,
Really, how did Cashman “treat” Bernie Williams? Everybody in the organization, Torre included KNEW Bernie was done as a player. The only thing he could do at the end was hit right handed. That’s it.
They all AGREED on what his role, if any, was going to be on the 2007 team.
Torre change his mind in ST, decides he “wanted Bernie” (when he agreed with Cash, Bernie was limited to just being a RH pinch hitter off the bench) and went public with his “wish” before telling Cash about his change of heart.
The reason? Simple. He didn’t want to be the bad guy and tell Bernie he was done.
By going public, he makes Cash the bad guy when he has to tell Bernie he isn’t in the team’s plans.
For one minute, put yourself in Cashman’s shoes and tell me that if you got blindsided by your manager that way, you wouldn’t go postal.
If I was the GM, I’d have fired the SOB on that spot for that kind of insubordination. It was calculating and pure Torre in the end. Only thinking about his own legacy and nothing else.
Cash had no choice but to do what he did with Bernie. He offered him a minor league deal, which Bernie refused. Bernie was finished as a player. There was no easy way to do it.
Bernie had Scott Boras in baseball call every team and everyone passed on him.
Of course, Joe’s spin in his book is different. Unfortunately, the truth, which Joe can’t escape from, is different than his spin on the issue.
Today, Bernie has made his peace with Cash and is back as part of the Yankee Family. He will be a guest instructor in ST in the future.
If he has no hard feelings toward Cash on this issue, I don’t see how anyone else does.
rodg12,
Almost every writer has failed to mention the 55% free throw shooting. They’re going on and on about demons and pushing back.
But someone did write that whomever scheduled this game on a back-to-back for the Lakers did a terrible injustice to it. They left everything out on the floor.
“The Mets are more likely to re-sign Reyes”
Reyes may command one of the biggest deals in MLB history. The Mets can afford that.
But David Wright may command a comparable mega-contract as well. Will the Mets want to give out two monster deals? Don’t forget about Carlos Beltran either.
Anyway, it’s fun to predict the future but I have faith in the Yankees front office. Let the “experts” figure it out.
Thanks Doreen.
I had promised myself not to post anything until I read the whole thing, but I couldn’t help myself.
“Almost every writer has failed to mention the 55% free throw shooting.”
Or the horrendous officiating.
“Just my opinion of course.”
Agreed. In fact if anyone showed a character flaw in those negotiations, it was Bernie.
had to throw that out there m.
It’s just one game and the Lakers are the team to beat… but the officiating was so awful last night.
I thought the Yankees were a business? So what they did to Bernie was wrong? Because Torre said so? This isn’t a retirement home as much as it appears to be.
Or the horrendous officiating.
So it is true that people from Boston are blaming the officials for the loss last night. Why am I not surprised.
Not character flaw. Just the human condition. Human emotions make business very messy.
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB
131 420 65 118 29 0 12 61 2 0 33 53 .281 .332 .436 96 183
that’s done?
it doesn’t look like it to me.
who wouldn’t take that right now from a yankee center fielder?
Boston Dave,
KG’s 6th foul was ticky-tack (but so were some on Farmar and Luke, but they’re not big stars so they get called for touches all the time).
Fish’s foul was a foul, but we had a foul to give.
Here’s the last play. http://www.hermitology.com/200.....aaaah.html
I’m sure the Brewers owner would be excited to get back at us, by asking for the “moon” for JJ Hardy, if traded before becoming a FA!!
“who wouldn’t take that right now from a yankee center fielder?”
Absolutely…problem is Bernie couldn’t play center. And I would definitely not take those numbers from a DH.
Joel Sherman working OT to turn this Jeter thing into a “controversy” on Kay’s show right now.
Gotta love the NY media. The 2009 season hasn’t even started yet and we are already onto a 2011 “controversy” that hasn’t even happened yet.
What a crew!
Have you ever noticed that in the NBA, whoever gets jobbed in the first half, gets the benefit in the second half? And vice versa? I don’t like it, but it happens all the time.
SJ44 -
And I had just started to have a little respect for Sherman for the way he covered the Yankees spending spree this off-season. Oh, well. That was short-lived.
SJ,
Talk about sheep! The media fixate on one “topic or person” and they won’t let go. Until someone throws them another bone or whatever sheep like to chew on.
That’s the problem Randy. He couldn’t play CF anymore, couuldn’t hit LH, and couldn’t play defense.
If he was still a player, how come nobody offered him a deal? He didn’t get a single offer and he made it very clear he still wanted to play.
Not one offer. Nobody in the game offered Bernie a deal.
Tells me, just as in the case of not offering arbitration to Abreu, playing the Teixeira situation perfectly and correctly judging Pettitte’s market, it looks like Cashman once again correctly judged the market when it came to Bernie.
standing o’neill-
in his book torre wanted his switch hitting ability on the bench for late in games. he wanted cashman to give bernie 1.5 million to do that. cashman had fallen in love with his stats on mientkiewicz and phelps.
that was the story. cashman was wrong about the obp potential of those two. he didn’t trust his manager to know what he wanted. cashman gave torre what cashman wanted.
he cut phelps loose after 36 games.
cashman was wrong. his problem is he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know. that’s what makes cashman dangerous. for a million bucks or so, the yankees could have has a clutch 4th or 5th outfielder and bench player for a couple of years.
i did love watching gardner suck last year. i suppose if bernie was still there, i wouldn’t have had that opportunity.
randy l -
But the bigger need was guys who could play 1B base at the time.
randy l,
Are you postulating that Bernie could have played not just one more year, but *two* more years?
Bernie couldn’t play a good enough defense to make his decent right handed hitting worth having. He’d have been a net negative. Plus getting a platoon for first base was an attempt to keep Giambi from playing in the field so that fills up DH too. Doug, before Lowell kicked him in the head, played pretty well. Bernie was done, Joe just wanted somebody to talk to on the bench so he wouldn’t have to sleep so often..
Randy…Phelps, unlike Bernie since he didn’t even try, earned his way onto the Roster in 2007. If you can guarantee that Bernie would have done well in 2007 then fine. But you can’t, so its all a moot point.
And that you want the Yankees or individual players to fail because that helps your argument that Cashman is a bad GM?
Re: Reyes next contact
True, it will be one of the biggest in history but the Yankees could position themselves to outbid the Mets since Damon, Matsui, Posada and Pettitte will be off the books and Jeter will not be making 20 mil in 2012.
However, the Yankees will still have Arod and Tex earning big money so they should probably avoid dishing out 20-25 mil for Matt Holliday.
“*you situation and mine is like two stockbrokers who are selling their ideas to clients.*”
Balderdash. I’m not selling anything to anyone, I’m not predicting anything other than an exciting season, and I’m not the Cashman acolyte that you sometimes try to paint me as being. I say the jury is still out on his legacy as GM.
You’ve already admitted more than once that you’re not objective about Cashman and that you hate him for firing people that you’re friendly with. Is it impolitic to remember that?
“*you go on and on about how no one can predict that joba would get injured.*”
Actually, we discussed that and you ended up saying you agreed with what I had to say about Joba and his injury. Forgotten so soon? And please don’t misrepresent what I wrote, that’s a really cheap debate tactic. Someone suggested that Joba’s injury was proof that he can’t be a starter. You said that Joba’s injury was due to the way they transitioned him from the bullpen to the rotation. I think your explanation is more likely to be correct than the other one and I agree with you that Joba should be a starter, period, in 2009.
“*you don’t want to go back and pull what i said at the time and what you said.*”
By all means, please go back and find anything I’ve ever written and quote it back to me.
“*well ,have them look at your predictions and then look at mine.*”
What predictions did I make? Quotes, please. I do remember predicting that Wang would win 20 games before he got injured. At one point I think I predicted that Mussina would get to 20 and I promised to buy a case of Moose Bars when he did. It turned out to be closer than I thought.
“*i’m not going to waste my time proving to you how i knew.*”
I don’t blame you since I don’t think you could, but that’s neither here nor there, I suppose.
“*if you don’t believe i have baseball intuitions based on experiences that prove correct more often than not, than don’t pay any attention to them.*”
I *do* believe you have a lot of baseball experience that leads you to write things in this forum that are both interesting and informative and I *do* believe that they give you useful foresight. Did you predict that the Yanks would get zero wins from Hughes and Kennedy? I don’t remember. Did you predict that Wang would go down with a freak foot injury and cripple an already-catering rotation? I don’t remember.
I also don’t remember asking you to prove how you know any of your predictions for 2009, and I don’t expect you to since you couldn’t anyway. That’s why they’re predictions, not guarantees, right? But I think you’ve laid a good framework: you think it’s likely that one or more of the pitchers in the rotation will miss signicant time with injuries and that Brian Cashman has been negligent by not having a proven major-league replacement waiting. Is that accurate? Is there more that you want to be on the record predicting?
“*don’t bother pay any attention to what i say.*”
Those Livan jokes really got under your skin, huh?
“i did love watching gardner suck last year. i suppose if bernie was still there, i wouldn’t have had that opportunity.”
yeah because thats what good organizations do, allow 41 year olds to suck in the outfield instead of giving a player in his 20s a chance.
I have no problem with Sherman or anyone else discussing the potentially volatile issue this far out. I find it hard to believe the Yanks will let Jeter play out his deal and they’ll do a two-year extension at the end of the 2009 campaign. You can’t have Jeter getting 3,000 hits in another uniform.
When he leaves SS Jeter will DH… its absurd to think he could play 2B or the OF for the first time at age 37 or whatever.
And it doesn’t matter what productivity you get out of which position. Have a clue! All that matters is what kind of productivity you get out of the complete lineup. If you’re getting 80+ HR and 250+ RBI from your corner infielders you can have a DH who gets on base and scores runs.
And that you want the Yankees or individual players to fail because that helps your argument that Cashman is a bad GM?
M…don’t bother man, I was stupid enough to get dragged into this myself. Nothing will ever convince Randy that Cashman should be GM of the Yankees.
Excited about ST. Concerned about our hitting against lefty pitching, especially pitchers we have little experience with.
Below is last years BA against lefties:
Gardner .125
Molina .188
Swisher .197
Nady .203 [.262 both leagues]
Cabrera .213
Ransom .214
Posada .255
Damon .258
A-Rod .263
Cano .292
Jeter .302
Teixeira .303 [both leagues]
Matsui .315
Question: Who plays CF against lefties?
“Why am I not surprised.”
randy,
Someone needed to play first base. I did not like the Mientkiewicz signing but it had nothing to do with Bernie.
A bench player has to bring something to the table. Switch hitting? Bernie couldn’t hit left-handed anymore. A 4th OF should ideally be able to play all 3 OF positions, and Bernie couldn’t do that either. Bernie would have had no role on the team except good luck charm and possibly musician.
Randy,
Do you think its right for Torre to blindside his GM with his change of heart? Why couldn’t he talk to Cashman prior to going public with his desire to keep Bernie?
Why do you find it so acceptable for Torre to use the media to make Cashman the fall guy in this situation?
Don’t you think if other teams in baseball thought Bernie could help them they wouldn’t have given him 1.5 million to do so?
Why is it that NOBODY offered him a deal, even though Bernie made it clear he still wanted to play?
That move was classic Torre in the end. Worried more about his legacy than he was about the team.
Yes, Cashman was wrong about Josh Phelps. Menky though, helped him win games and played very well at first base. A position they needed help with defensively much more than a RH bat off the bench.
“Are you postulating that Bernie could have played not just one more year, but two more years?”
old guys can hit sometimes . they get to a point where they can’t run ,but they can hit, especially under pressure compared to young guys.
we’ll never know though.
bernie, should have simply went to another team, but to him he was a yankee and that was that.
Where can we sign the petition to replace Pete with Sam? Bout time this blog had a competent writer who just doesn’t sit around and bash the manager and certain players.
Randy l –
This Pete’s 1/5/07 Post about Bernie:
Let’s go under the assumption the Yankees start the season with 12 pitchers. That leaves 13 roster spots. Giambi, Posada, Cano, Jeter, Rodriguez, Damon, Matsui and Abreu account for eight. Add in Phillips (or Phelps), Mientkiewicz, a backup catcher and a utility infielder and that’s 12. Unless he is traded, Melky Cabrera gets the final spot and there’s no room for Bernie Williams. I can’t speak for how a fan might think. From a baseball sense, it’s not hard to judge. There is no question that Bernie is slowing down and he’s not much of a defensive outfielder. A .281/.332/.436 season is nothing special and he’s a terrible pinch hitter (7 of 33, one homer, seven RBI last three seasons). Even if Melky were to be traded, Joe Torre could do far more with a player like Kevin Thompson. The question now is whether the Yankees can produce a graceful exit for Bernie or whether he tries to hook on with another team. Bernie told us in November that he still enjoyed playing. But I know from being around the team last season that he was usually the last one to arrive at the clubhouse before the game and the first one to leave after. That doesn’t necessarily mean anything but he strikes me like a guy who could walk away without looking back.
posted by Peter Abraham @ 1/05/2007 12:00:00 PM 37 comments
My point re: Jeter is similar to what Kay just said.
When did Derek Jeter ever do anything wrong? Really, when has he made the wrong move?
You could argue not going more “public” with support for Arod. However, I know for a fact he has been more than supportive of him. That’s a non-issue to me.
I think Derek Jeter will do the right thing when its TIME.
Its not TIME yet. So, its a waste of time to talk about it.
“bernie, should have simply went to another team, but to him he was a yankee and that was that.”
Don’t kid yourself. Remember Boras had Bernie going to the Red Sox, until we upped his offer!
Randy l -
This is Pete’s 1/5/07 post on Bernie:
Is that it for Bernie Williams?
Let’s go under the assumption the Yankees start the season with 12 pitchers. That leaves 13 roster spots. Giambi, Posada, Cano, Jeter, Rodriguez, Damon, Matsui and Abreu account for eight. Add in Phillips (or Phelps), Mientkiewicz, a backup catcher and a utility infielder and that’s 12. Unless he is traded, Melky Cabrera gets the final spot and there’s no room for Bernie Williams. I can’t speak for how a fan might think. From a baseball sense, it’s not hard to judge. There is no question that Bernie is slowing down and he’s not much of a defensive outfielder. A .281/.332/.436 season is nothing special and he’s a terrible pinch hitter (7 of 33, one homer, seven RBI last three seasons). Even if Melky were to be traded, Joe Torre could do far more with a player like Kevin Thompson. The question now is whether the Yankees can produce a graceful exit for Bernie or whether he tries to hook on with another team. Bernie told us in November that he still enjoyed playing. But I know from being around the team last season that he was usually the last one to arrive at the clubhouse before the game and the first one to leave after. That doesn’t necessarily mean anything but he strikes me like a guy who could walk away without looking back.
As for Phelps (one of Pete’s all-time favorite whipping boys), remember we got him off the Rule 5 draft, so he cost us virtually nothing.
randy, I would love to see some evidence, coming from somewhere outside your heart of hearts, that older players are more clutch than younger players.
Perhaps Cashman’s big mistake has been trying to get the team younger. He should be acquiring the oldest, most grizzled players available. They will bat 1.000 with runners on and score so many runs that it won’t matter that they can barely move.
Randy,
He tried to go to another team. Nobody wanted him! What does that tell you?
He wanted to play and nobody thought he had anything left.
Hard to blame that on Cashman. Its not like went someplace and lit it up.
The only place he has lit up since he stopped playing is a concert hall.
I don’t see how that is on Cashman. I guess if he hate the guy so much you can blame him for anything. However, when a guy hasn’t had a sniff of an offer to play baseball since turning down the Yankees offer, its hard to say the GM “missed” on that one.
Randy — No one wanted Bernie… no one. Late in the season it wasn’t quite like watching Willie Mays at the end but it was close. He could have shared the DH role with someone, but that really clogs up your roster which is why no one was willing to do it.
There is plenty of legitimate ammunition if you want to take shots at Cashman. As you can tell by many of the reactions you undermine your own credibility when you try manufacturing mistakes that weren’t made.
He was NOT a good pinch hitter.
And though Phelps did not work out, a lot of people were excited by his spring and an early game that he helped win against Cleveland with an unlikely late inning (9th) homerun with 2 outs.
Another post by Pete back in the same time period quoted Torre as saying he was very happy with Phelps.
Another post quoted Cashman saying that since they could not pick up a really great offensive player, he felt he needed to cover defense to help his pitching staff. Giambi had been a drag on his ability to do anything with the team for a while (whether you like Giambi or not, this is true). Keeping Bernie would have amounted to having 2 restrictive players on your roster.
Enough on Bernie and why he isn’t playing and enough on Jeter and where he’ll be in 2011.
How about some answers on my post a few minutes ago!!
Excited about ST. Concerned about our hitting against lefty pitching, especially pitchers we have little experience with.
Below is last years BA against lefties:
Gardner .125
Molina .188
Swisher .197
Nady .203 [.262 both leagues]
Cabrera .213
Ransom .214
Posada .255
Damon .258
A-Rod .263
Cano .292
Jeter .302
Teixeira .303 [both leagues]
Matsui .315
Question: Who plays CF against lefties?
sj-
i don’t care about anything except bernie williams should have stayed at least one more year. if someone had that decision in front of them and can’t make that decision they are a baseball idiot.
cashman was in that position and he made that call. you weren’t. if you were there , i do not think you would have made that call .
you might think you would ,but you wouldn’t.
it is a character flaw that when he comes to a decision like that he doesn’t have the feel to make the right call. cashman does not feel the heartbeat that torre talks about baseball having.
he’ll do it again too. he tried putting posada and rivera in a similar position, but seeing what he did to bernie they both covered their butts with long term contracts that takes their last years out of cashman’s hands.
those big ugly contracts of posada’s and rivera’s are a direct result of cashman screwing bernie.cashman showed his true colors and posada and rivera took note.
Randy l -
those contracts to Posada and Rivera were a result of, in Posada’s case, having no alternative (who does Cashman get to replace him, what all-star catcher was on the market at the time) and in Rivera’s case – hello? He’s the best closer in baseball, you don’t let him go. Both guys knew their positions (or their agents did) and got the best deal they could get.
Good point sj and yankee trader. Bernie was not loyal to the Yankees and thats the reason he didnt go elsewhere. As Yankee trader mentioned, he was a lesser contract away from joining the hated ones. Bernie couldnt hit for power, let alone hit, run or throw. He was on the Yanks 2 years too long. With all that Cashman invited him to spring training to compete for a position. But he wanted the guarantee that he was getting the last couple years without the production.
What Bernie should have done is call Zito up and make themselves a band. Because they both had and got nothing left but the tunes.
From above: “he’s a terrible pinch hitter (7 of 33, one homer, seven RBI last three seasons).: How does this help the team?
Bernie looked cooked in 2006. Posada and Rivera had awesome seasons in 2007. They are not remotely comparable to Bernie.
You say no one with baseball sense turns Bernie away. Yet all 30 GMs turned him away. Ergo, once I buy a team, you will be its GM.
Randy-Maybe this will get your mind off of Bernie.
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/.....m-yankees/
“those big ugly contracts of posada’s and rivera’s are a direct result of cashman screwing bernie.”
I will have to dissagree. They are a direct result of having good numbers in their contract years. Thats what i like about Cashman. If you EARBED it, he will show you the money.
If im not mistaken, Bernie actually had a worse year prior to his last one. So who knows if he would have matched his contract year or reverted back to the one prior. Anyway you want to look at it, he didnt have the numbers to play the outfield for the Yankees. Maybe the Royals.
Randy,
That’s BS. Posada and Mariano had all star seasons in their walk years. Bernie couldn’t play anymore! Why do you so casually dismiss the fact that NOBODY offered him a deal once he left the Yankees? If he was so valuable, why didn’t he get any offers?
Why didn’t the Red Sox offer him a deal to play off the bench? Or the Mets? Or the Angels? Nobody offered Bernie a deal.
No, he shouldn’t have played one more year because he had nothing left in the tank.
Posada and Mo got their deals based on their own performances. Bernie’s departure had nothing to do with it.
That “heartbeat” stuff is a bunch of crap. It really is.
Where was Torre’s “heartbeat” when he took the best player in the game and had him bat 8th in a elimination playoff game. Where was his “heartbeat” then when he made the single dumbest decision a Yankee manager has made since not deciding to run on a knuckleball pitcher in the ’04 ALCS or not running on a guy with one good ankle in the same serious.
Oh yeah, it was the SAME GUY making those decisions. “Heartbeat” Joe Torre.
I get the fact that you don’t like Cashman. However, when you decide everything he has done is wrong, while everything Torre has said or done is right simply because he “played the game” that’s when you lose credibility debating the issues.
As 86 said, there are legitimate issues in which you can criticize Cashman for during his time in NY. Bernie Williams ain’t one of them. Not even close.
thanks Yankee Trader
my head was about to explode-again
Bernie Williams was offered a minor league contract with an invitation to spring training in 2007. Torre would have given him more playing time over Josh Phelps in spring training to assure he made the team but Bernie declined the offer and was “disappointed”.
Less than a year later, Torre was offered a contract with incentives to assure he would remain the highest paid manager in the game. He declined the offer and was “insulted”.
Bernie has gotten over 2007 and may one day be back in the organization in a capacity.
Torre has moved on to bitterness and a book. Perhaps he should have learned how to play a guitar.
“As you can tell by many of the reactions you undermine your own credibility when you try manufacturing mistakes that weren’t made.”
86w183-
being right has nothing to do with taking a popular vote on the issue. do you think the masses here know more than the core yankee players who would have voted to have bernie staying in a heartbeat if they had a choice? jeter,posada, pettitte,rivera,mattingly, torre- you think they would have voted him off the island?
think again.
Bernie Williams was one of those magical Yankees that fans developed a love affair with….not Mickey Mantle like, but, very much Bobby Murcer like.
Had Bernie Williams gone to Torre and Cashman and told them that he wanted to give first base a shot gone to Florida in January and got with Mattingly or Chambliss to teach him the finer points or even the basic points of playing first base, he would likely had gotten one of those spots. There was no way that you could count on Giambi being healthy or staying healthy, which was why they had 3 extra first basemen in the first place.
“Don’t kid yourself. Remember Boras had Bernie going to the Red Sox, until we upped his offer!”
Not true. After the ’98 season the Yanks offered Bernie $60MM for 5 years. Boston then offered him $91.5MM for 7 years. The Yanks then offered him $87.5MM for 7. He came back to the Yanks for less money.
It is a tad premature but eventually the time will come. And you do have to think about it in advance. Who plays SS after Jeter? No move that involves not having Jeter play SS, for the Yankees, can be made until that Q is answered. After that, I like the LF option but only if he can make the transition.
The OF (most likely LF) seems like a logical move. Moving him 50-60 feet to his left (2B) wouldn’t make sense regardless of Cano’s status, and 1B & 3B are covered for about 8 more years. Where else you going to put him besides the OF? Catcher or closer after Mo and Posada are done?
I could see them signing him for 5 years and maybe he’s DH the last 1 or 2, whether he plays SS or LF the first 3-4 years of that deal. His level of play, the level of who else can play whatever his position is as his skills begin to tail off, and his own thinking could dictate the transition from SS to ?? to DH to retirement.
Another team? No way. Money? I dunno. Specific position? That can take shape as he ages. But 5 years seems a good max length of time in general. Maybe 3 or 4 plus option (I’m sure both sides will settle on something fair) but no more than 5 years IMO. That would finish give him 7 more seasons. Lets just say he’s still got something to offer at the end, of course they can extend him. But by then he’ll be a coot in baseball years, so at least from this year’s perspective I’d be surprised if that happened. No crystal ball … wait & see.
“*being right has nothing to do with taking a popular vote on the issue.*”
That’s true, but how much stock are you selling today on Bernie Williams? Any buyers?
But I do like the novelty of this approach: everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot, except you don’t want to call all of them idiots outright, so you say that they would have agreed with you then if they’d been the ones making the decision.
The appeal to sentimentality – Bernie’s teammates would have wanted to keep him around! — is a nice touch too, but it’s undermined a bit by the fact that no other team wanted him.
GB7,
Why would they put a guy who throws like a girl at first base? Someone who doesnt have the arm to turn two? Oh wait, we did have Giambi and Damon(briefly)at first base. Anything was possible.
Sam,
New thread? Too much Bernie. I miss him, but I had almost come to peace with it. It seems like so long ago.
Yankee Trader —
Good question about facing LHP. One of the reasons I wanted the Yanks the find a role for Ty Wigginton is because he hammers lefties. ARod will be better against lefties next year, his career OPs against LHP is .969.
I think the Yanks hope Melky can find a RH stroke. Otherwise it’ll have to be Damon so they can get the bats of Swisher and Nady in there.
It’s a legit concern and, like most of the Yankees hoped for improvement in 2009 will depend monstly on returning players performing better.
Of course a healthy Jorge Posada would make the biggest difference of all. In 2007, Jorge’s stats vs LHP were .331 BA, .411 OBP, .531 SLG. Jose Molina against LHP last year was .188. .250, .271…. just horrific.
Nick,
So your bold print would be a double-barreled shotgun?
Put it down, man.
SJ44-
Got to go, because I’ve had enough about Bernie, but wanted to add Torre’s handling of the Cleveland “midges.” He should have done everything in his power to stall and ask the umpires to wait until they cleared. Felt confident we would have won that game and “maybe” won that series and moved on.
“That’s BS. Posada and Mariano had all star seasons in their walk years.”
and they held out for three year contracts.
posada could have taken less. why should he ? he should trust cashman to do the right thing?
the bottom line is when a player has cashman over a barrel, they need to get everything they can because when cashman has the leverage he’s a real ——–.
you aren’t going to paint a happily ever after story here. cashman is cashman.
why don’t you start lobbying for the name to be changed to the Cashman Yankees ? i mean he’s the team right. all things start with him.
i was a new york yankee fan. i don’t remember signing on to be a brian cashman fan.
is this a cashman blog?
no , it’s a yankee blog.
the topic is jeter. will cashman treat him respectfully? hell no is the answer.
“do you think the masses here know more than the core yankee players who would have voted to have bernie staying in a heartbeat if they had a choice?”
SJ44 and the other regulars on this blog are hardly “the masses.” The real “masses” probably support putting Joba in the pen and giving Torre and Bernie lifetime contracts.
And if “the masses” oppose giving Bernie a guaranteed deal in 2008, and the “core players” support it, then “the masses” are right because giving a guaranteed deal to any player who is slow, not defensively versatile, and unable to hit right-handed pitching is a terrible idea.
I think Jeter will stay at shortstop until he becomes the first and only shortstop to ever have 3,000 hits. Neither Honus Wagner nor Cal Ripkin ever did that.
Posada had a very viable offer from the Mets. Mo could’ve found a job in an instant. Andy was the best pitcher on the market (exercised option).
Alex is the one who didn’t have suitors. Why don’t you pick on that one. I’ll probably back you up on that one.
86w183-
Thanks for your reply to my question about our poor BA statistics against lefty pitching.
m.: the bold print is to differentiate between the quotes and the responses. Are you suggesting that randy is a fish in a barrel? His 5:14 post is a little fishy, but still…
Randy —
You’re damn right I think the most informed posters here are at times more capable of evaluating things than the players. Sure they would have voted to bring their pal Bernie back. Guess what… they would have voted to bring Giambi back too… instead they got Mark Teixiera. A guy who is younger and better than Giambi at everything except perspiring.
You want a players’ vote to determine the roster? I don’t.
There’s a reason why players play and GMs GM.
And if you look at Alex’s contract, you won’t find Cashman’s fingerprints anywhere on it.
Ansky,
Before Jeter,Nomar,Tejada and Alex came along. Shortstop wasnt expected to put up huge numbers. Even with all the aging and injuries Jeter has had. He still is one of the best hitting shortstops in the game. I think CB came out with a statistic that his range also improved last year. IMO, we milk him at short(the lighter hitting position). Get a stud in left and go with that. As far as 5 years from now as a dh. We might need that spot for Arod.
This is what no one has mentioned. What if he gets so banged up and his numbers drop considerably these next two year. Can you see Jeter hanging it up?
S.o.S.
February 6th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
GB7,
Why would they put a guy who throws like a girl at first base? Someone who doesnt have the arm to turn two? Oh wait, we did have Giambi and Damon(briefly)at first base. Anything was possible.
————————————————————
A first baseman doesn’t need a rocket for an arm. Giambi, not only didn’t have a rocket arm, but, it wasn’t accurate for short or long distance. Damon and Williams didn’t have strong arms, but, they were pretty accurate.
Nick,
I see. He’s using the shotgun and you’re using the cap gun? How goes it?
“why don’t you start lobbying for the name to be changed to the Cashman Yankees ? i mean he’s the team right. all things start with him.”
Why not call it the Bernie Yankees, because Bernie deserved an endless series of one-year deals even though he was no longer any good at baseball.
Why not call it the Torre Yankees, because Torre deserved a mutli-year contract despite year after year of making some of the worst managerial decisions in playoff history.
Why not call it the Veteran Player Yankees, because anyone who has been in baseball long enough to meet randy’s standards deserves to play for as long as he wants and for as much money as he wants.
Randy, you got one thing right. We are Yankee fans and we want the Yankees to win. Signing Bernie Williams to hobble off the bench does not help accomplish that goal.
randy you’re letting your hatred of cashman color your thinking. you are alot smarter than this and i suspect that deep down you know you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing.
“You want a players’ vote to determine the roster? I don’t.”
hmmm sounds like the baseball version of American Idle. It could bring YES some huge ratings.But if that was the case, we would have a 40 plus team playing and Nieves as our catcher. Thats why Cashman gets paid the big bucks. To keep his feelings aside. Its business nothing personal.
Question of the Day:
Would you rather have $10,000 or the Yankees win a championship in ’09?
Question of the Day (Randy):
Would you rather Cashman be fired or the Yankees win a championship in ’09?
m: I’m not sure where you’re trying to go with this except I know you like peace in the valley, but I used the bold in my big post because I was using a bunch of quotes and it’s visually easier to follow when the quotes are bolded. You get that. Are you trying to get me to say that randy is shooting blanks? Are you saying it’s cruel to return fire? Just what are you saying?
The comments on this topic illustrate the issue. I don’t know the count, but there are a ton on an issue that is essentially a couple of years away.
Teams have dealt with this before. When a player is as classy as Jeter has been throughout his career it tends to go smoothly. The fact that he plays for the Yankees makes it a bigger story than most, but Biggio was pretty important to Houston and his tenure ended on a high note. The most recent example of a player with that kind of importance and stature in the game has got to be Cal Ripken Jr. He is still a star that is recognized outside the game. I think it can and will go well and Jeter’s relationship with the Yankees will last long after his playing career.
If Cano is a bust again this year I can see the yanks moving him to second, but barring that I suppose there’s a real possibility that he might not be re-signed. Let’s face it, if Brett Favre can play for a team other than the Packers anything is possible.
Randy,
When teams have leverage in contract negotiations, they use it. When players have it, they use it.
That’s gone in sports, not only baseball, for years and that’s not changing.
Since when do the players decide who goes on the roster? Who cares what the players want? They don’t decide the roster.
Joe Torre once wanted Albert Belle on the team. How do you think he would have fit in NY? That would have been a disaster.
Somebody has to be the GM. Somebody has to be the grown up or the bad guy when the tough decisions have to be made.
Sometimes, you make the right call. As Cashman did with Bernie and for this entire winter. Sometimes, as in the case of Kevin Brown, Josh Phelps and Kei Igawa, you make the wrong call.
The issue I have with you in this discussion is you believe every single decision Brian Cashman makes is wrong. Even when the facts say otherwise.
If he was as bad a GM as you say, nobody would want to play for the guy and the team would be a last place team. That just isn’t the case with this team. At least at this time.
Nick,
Just saying that you’ve been dogging randy l for days. Philosophical dialog for sure, but a lot of people would let it go.
I hope Espresso’s right though
i see jeter and the yankees announcing a 4 yr/ $41M extension for jeter in ST next season.
Knicks fans rejoice. They took away LeBron’s triple double.
And the C’s are probably going to be tired tonight.
I liked the best war movie discussion for the past couple days better than this Beries and Torres feelings were hurt.
BTW. Didnt get to say i liked Carol Burnet and Threes Company in the 80′s.
What are your thoughts on maybe going after an Orlando Cabrera? He would be our utility infielder and keep the pressure on Cano.
I wish the Yankees hadn’t signed A-Rod again. I really don’t think he’ll ever deliver in the post-season and this year we could’ve moved Jeter over to 3rd and this would barely be an issue.
Hey Randy, in case all this discussion has got you down, the Padres are supposedly going after Livan, if you haven’t heard. That should get them better than 200:1 odds to win the Series.
m,
You hear about Paul Pierce saying he’s going to follow up Kobe & Lebron’s performance tonight?
Gotta love the way the media portrays the Knickerbocker’s these days. At this point, they’re on the same level as the team that plays the Harlem Globetrotters.
Dinner time, you folks have a great night.
nick in sf-
so tell me again how you were right again with joba not getting injured…with hughes… with kennedy…. tell me all the things you see ahead of time.
you’re funny nick.stick to what you’re good at.
lol Jeremy. Not sure that Livan would better their odds.
Pauly,
No. But I was very surprised to hear Allen say that Fisher threw him to the ground so hard he turned his ankle.
I’m still trying to figure out if that was before after Allen scissor-kicked himself up in the air and got a clean shot off.
I talked about the schedule makers earlier, but the Knicks schedule this week is cruel. Just cruel.
Paul Pierce wasn’t quite himself, so they may be sick.
“But know for sure that at some point in the future, the Yankees will have to begin a dialog with Jeter and his agent about what happens next.”
What an incredibly insightful prediction. You mean there will actually be a dialog with Jeter about his future after this contract? Wow. Crazy talk, I say.
jememy-
the only thing hard is not really letting loose with what i really think
thanks for the livan info.
of course he’ll be pitching somewhere.
What? Nick said that Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy wouldn’t get hurt? And they did? Nick, keep your mouth shut.
Good God. Enough with the Cano was a bust crap. He had a bad April and then hit .297 for the next 5 months. It certainly didn’t help him that he had next to zero batting behind him and not much more hitting in front of him. Did he have some issues….yes? He’ll be fine. It also didn’t help his offense to bat with a deep bone bruise at the base of his left thumb. What were you crying about when Jeter opened 2004 by hitting .178 through 21 May?
I take it back Jeremy. If they signed Livan to pinch hit then it does better their odds. My bad.
Randy,
Going back to our 6th starter discussion, here is a list of the 19 FA starters currently available (this is where I picked up the Livan update):
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-free.html
Pauly
February 6th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
I wish the Yankees hadn’t signed A-Rod again. I really don’t think he’ll ever deliver in the post-season and this year we could’ve moved Jeter over to 3rd and this would barely be an issue.
————————————————————
What brilliance? One of the major reasons that Rodriguez went to third bae to begin with is because they didn’t think that his hands and reflexes were quick enough to play third base.
Since when do the players decide who goes on the roster? Who cares what the players want? They don’t decide the roster.”
maybe they should.
i say who who cares what management wants?
i guess that’s why i own my own business. i’m kind of unemployable in that sense.
i actually care a lot what my employees want . i look at it as a team effort and have always paid way over the norm around here.
who cares what players think?
did you say more than you meant to with that one?
Correction: ***One of the major reasons that Rodriguez went to third base to begin with is because they didn’t think that Jeter’s hands and reflexes were quick enough to play third base***
m: it’s all in context of the current topics and it’s all been very mild, especially compared to what has been said in reply; please see the 5:43 post as the latest example. I understand how you might be trying to speak in code to spare some feelings, but in this case it might be better to say “please leave poor randy alone” if that’s what you mean rather than talk about bolding things and shotguns.
randy: I haven’t said I know what caused Joba’s injury, since I don’t. I think I said that it may have been a result of the way he was moved from the bullpen to the rotation but that it can’t be proven. Other pitchers have gotten the same type of injury without having been gone from the bullpen to the rotation in the same manner. So we know from history that pitchers can get that injury for other reasons than proximity to the walking hex that is Brian Cashman.
I don’t claim to see things ahead of time, so I’m not sure what else you want me to say, other than you’re good at insulting people without responding to the substance of their critiques, so I don’t have to suggest you stick to it.
Thanks for the correction GB. Iv been trying to make sense of that comment for the past 2 minutes.
In regard to Cano. We all know he’s a talent. But do you not think that he might need someone to push him at all times to get the most out of him? Do you think he has made enough adjustments(as pitchers have to him) to continue having 300+ batting seasons? I couldnt stand watching him swing at a first pitch in the dirt and hit it weekly to second with runners on. Iv heard he has been working on his swing this offseason. Im hoping patience in one of his adjustments he doing.
Randy,
Management and the players are united in wanting to win. I’m sure they are usually in agreement in a general sense on how to win. (“We need more pitching.” “We need Teixeira at first.” And so on.)
Where mgmt. has to be the “bad guy,” as SJ44 puts it, is if the team is better off without a player who everyone likes but just isn’t as good as his replacement. In other words, mgmt. can’t give in to players’ desires if they are not in the best interests of the team.
‘Would you rather Cashman be fired or the Yankees win a championship in ‘09?”
m-
oooh ,trick question! i’d of course like to see the yankees win #27. for one thing, my father is almost 90, and i think he’d like to see a few more yankee championships.
nick in sf-
focus.
i’m pretty sure at the time that joba was rushed into the rotation , you said it was perfectly acceptable the way they did it.
i said i didn’t like the pitch count each time as they stretched him out.
it was a very specific discussion. i said he’d likely get hurt. i said it was too fast.
you took the position that the yankees were doing it the right way.
now i may have this all wrong on your part, so i’ll this weekend go back and see what we both said.
you can do the same. fair enough?
cano, melky and everyone else gets a clean slate, spring training is about to start, all the numbers get set back to zero and we start over. cano’s been good, cano’s been bad, its fresh start time!
randy, I don’t know what I said at the time, so have at it. I don’t have to worry that you might selectively use damning quotes and leave out mitigating ones, do I?
No controversy, he signs his last multi year deal at a discount and moves to second base. Cano moves to short… or I guess he could move to third and A-Rod moves back to short.
This doesn’t make any sense at all. Arod does not play short again, not ever. What makes you think Cano, other than as a possible stop gap measure does that…?
Barry Lane
Hanley (25) 0.940 OPS, $440,000
S.Drew (25) 0.836 OPS, $1.5m
Reyes (25) 0.833 OPS, $4.4m
Hardy (26) 0.821 OPS, $2.65m
Peralta (26) 0.804 OPS, $2.5m
Rollins (30) 0.786 OPS, $8m
Guzman (30) 0.786 OPS, $4.2m
Jeter (34) 0.771 OPS, $21.6m (10/$189)
Young (32) 0.741 OPS, $6.2m
Tejada (34) 0.729 OPS, $15m (6/$72)
Cabrera (34) 0.705 OPS, $10m
Renteria (33) 0.699 OPS, $10m
Crosby (28) 0.645 OPS, $3.55m
So basically, Jeter, Renteria, Tejada and Cabrera are riding some combination of veteran-ness, winning, quality and reputation. Jeter’s AAV is still 50% higher then any other SS.
Simple question: Lets say during his off-season activities, Jeter ruptires his coc….cys, and can’t play.
We can get Tejada, Renteria or Cabrera.
Who do you want, and HOW MUCH WILL YOU PAY for him?
Now imagine it’s 2011, and time to talk to Jeter.
What is he worth on the free market?
If his OPS in 2010 is .750 or better, he might get over $10m. If it UNDER .750, would you pay $10m for a poor defensive, 36 yr old SS, with a .745 OPS?
And Sam, Bernie took ONE million in his last year.
Giambi made $21m last year, and will make $5.5m/yr for the next 2. Bobby and MANY other players will be getting 1/2 to 2/3 of what they made in 2008, and in 2011, Jeter will be 2 years older then Bobby is now.
Because Jeter has been grossly overpaid for a number of years, you rhink the Yankees should overpay him again… in his decline?
I don’t know about anyone else, but the mere thought about Jeter getting to this point makes me feel — OLD!!!
Where the hell is all the time going, anyway?
Uncle Ellsworth:
I was away all day and I just saw your post earlier in this thread with the Bowie / Uncle Floyd / “Slip Away” Video. That was truly amazing.
(My second Concert ever at MSG was Bowie’s “Thin White Duke Tour” surrounding the release of his “Station to Station” Album. I’ve been a fan ever since).
Thanks for posting that.
I like Jeter as much as the next guy, but the first Yankee priority has to be winning the World Series. If Jeter’s more of a hindrance than a help come 2010, he’s got to go.
When Jeter retires or whatever…will A-Rod ever play his true position at SS?
SI reports ARod tested for two forms of steroids in 2003.
omg, not a-fraud too? lol, pete’s chance to keep the blog afire!
omg, not a-fraud too? lol, pete’s chance to keep the blog afire!
Guess you missed on the next controversy.