Tony Pena is insane
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Feb 15, 2009 
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Central CT Yankee
February 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
What’s Moyer’s take on JC Romero?
—————————————
Wonder if he’ll be too embarrased to accept his WS ring?
Romero afterall was the winning pitcher in 2 of their WS wins, one of which Moyer started.
catchers are crazy.
this may be the highlight of spring training for them.
I used to do that when I caught in HS too – nothing wrong with it – it’s usually slower then a pitch in the dirt anyway
Bob (The Original) – (assuming you are correct, I really don’t remember and I’m too lazy to look it up) – I wonder what would happen if someone asked Moyer if the Phils should forfeit those games to the Rays, since, you know, a cheater with no credibility helped win the games for the Phils.
I have a problem with people having selective indignation.
Any way you could get video of this Peter? I think the newspaper should get you a video camera for this stuff.
I’m sure Pena wishes he was getting them hit to him, love that guy
How about Moyer’s 20 win season in 2001?
Wonder if he’s so embarrassed that he’d agree to have that stricken from the record books since Brett Boone was on the team having an MVP type season while juiced out of his mind?
randy l
February 15th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
catchers are crazy.
this may be the highlight of spring training for them.
————————————————————
Randy, was it Frank Crosetti that used to have a flat sided fungo bat that he would catch the ball with when it was thrown back to him? It was like watching Andy Verapappa on a bowling lane, with the tricks and gimmicks he had.
My coach did this to our catchers when I played too.
How does 22 years in the league, during the steroid era, make you credible?
Palmeiro had 19. If his news never came out, we’d be labeling him a credible person and one that ‘did it the right way’.
If Andy Pettitte can take HGH to boost his recovery time, I don’t put it past the oldest pitcher in the league to do it. It’s not like Andy has character flaws that Jamie doesn’t. They are both great guys, I’m sure.
Point being, how do you know anything about Moyer? Don’t go labeling guys credible and not credible cause you agree with their opinion Pete.
You played ‘90-’03, you are guilty ‘til proven innocent. Especially a 46 year old pitcher.
I continue to be amazed that players who have played with current juicers are slamming A-Rod. This is just more proof of the jealousy that a lot of these guys have of Alex. How else do you explain Moyer talking trash about Alex when his own teammate was caught so recently? Unreal.
Why aren’t we letting Gardner do these drills instead of Pena.
2 birds, 1 stone.
The problem I have with Moyer’s interview is, his suggestions are “after the fact”.
He wants all the names released now? Really? Why is that? In other words, he will support breaking the agreement between the Union and MLB not to provide confidentiality for those provisional tests.
If that’s the case, why didn’t he support the release of the names last year. 2006? 2005? Why now?
It makes no sense, other than to pile on a guy he doesn’t like and “look good” publicly with his comments.
Again, something that gets lost in all this blabber about Arod, those results on ALL the players who tested positive in 2003 were NEVER to be made public.
Its the ONLY reason why the Union agreed to re-open the CBA and submit to the provisional testing program. A vote that Moyer cast as a player rep SUPPORTING the terms of the agreement.
Now, he wants to renege on the agreement? That may be the way he feels but, if you polled the entire membership, that would be a minority opinion among the players.
I’d also like to know when he decided to change his mind about supporting an agreement he voted for?
Again, what Arod did was stupid. To have his talent, yet be so insecure he felt he needed to use PED’s, is a rotten shame.
The revisionist history, moralizing and the changing of positions, at least to me, is as distasteful as a positive test.
Its all posturing for PR purposes and nothing more.
IMO, when a guy of Moyer’s experience only NOW speaks up about PED use, it doesn’t give him more credibility. It makes me suspect as to why he is talking about it now.
He could have said all of the things he said in that story the day after his teammate, JC Romero, tested positive. He said nothing.
Just as Arod needs to just shut up and play, I would suggest Jamie do the same.
I also like Pena. I hope Girardi acknowledges Pena’s existence as his bench coach. And if he doesn’t I hope Pena makes a pest out of himself.
Is it just me, or can anyone else see Pena as a future Yankee manager?
I just saw where Tony LaRussa is advocating “Zero Tolerance” for steroids. You’re about 20 years too late on your indignation, Tony.
One last point, we have to stop with the “What do I tell me kids” arguments. That’s about as lame as it gets.
I was 8 years old the first time I met Mickey Mantle.
He was in my dad’s restaurant, along with Phil Rizzuto and Whitey Ford. It was a local dinner my dad sponsored every year and would invite Yankees to make the “rubber chicken circuit” stop in CT.
At that time, these guys got paid good money in the off-season to do these banquets. Most of it was in cash, making it even better for them.
Anyway, when I met Mickey, he was so drunk, he literally fell off the bar stool he was sitting on as I approached him.
He uttered a couple of obscenities, told Whitey he was “too drunk to sign” the program I had wanted him to sign and that was it.
Somehow, someway, I got over it and it didn’t scare me for life.
Years later, I related that story to Mickey again when I saw him at a charity event. After apologizing profusely to me, he said, “your dad could pour one helluva drink”! lol
My point is, if the worst thing that ever happens to some these children and their parents is a baseball player they don’t know tests positive for steroids, they are going to have a very good life.
In the grand scheme of things that can go wrong with your kids, this ain’t high on the list people. It really isn’t.
If it is, then you have your priorities WAY out of whack.
I just saw where Tony LaRussa is advocating “Zero Tolerance” for steroids. You’re about 20 years too late on your indignation, Tony.
————————-
This from the guy who still defends McGwire to this day.
I’m so sick of all these hypocrites and their opinions.
Biz Mackie, a great catcher in his own right in the Negro Leagues, used to nail young catchers spikes to either the ground or a board that he would then anchor to the ground and teach them to do a lot of things from the crouch without moving their feet.
Tony LaRussa was all over the steroid thing era. Didn’t Ron Kittle play for him back in Chicago?
Funny coming from Tony LaRussa. Those in glass houses.
Which is worse, getting behind the wheel of a car drunk, (and FALLING ASLEEP) or taking roids? Which has the potential to affect more people?
Those in glass houses Tony, those in glass houses.
One positive test from Arod and all of these guys SUDDENLY find religion when it comes to this issue.
Amazing they don’t see how hypocritical they sound. Comical really.
Excellent point Jennifer.
How about zero tolerance for irreponsible a**holes who feel the need to risk people’s lives by driving drunk?
Maybe journalists should be stalking guys like him instead?
Everyone is falling all over Joba down in Tampa, yet he did something far worse that what A-Rod did.
jennifer
February 15th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Funny coming from Tony LaRussa. Those in glass houses.
Which is worse, getting behind the wheel of a car drunk, (and FALLING ASLEEP) or taking roids? Which has the potential to affect more people?
Those in glass houses Tony, those in glass houses.
————————————————————
Being a lawyer, LaRussa is well versed in spinning his version of facts to his advantage.
heyy pete is it possible to get any video footage? Maybe some footage of the pitchers throwing bullpen sessions? or players playing catch in the outfield.. etc
SJ-
Excellent point and I agree wholeheartedly with you on that issue.
If any player in the league acted in the way those guys did in those days, they would be fined, punished, or whatever else.
GB,
I don’t even think its that. I think people in the game want to be viewed by the media and the fans on the “right” side of this issue.
Anybody who have been previously silent on this subject, who now decides to take a “stand” because of Arod’s positive test is a fraud.
This is a guy who was the manager of the A’s in the late 80′s where a lot of this stuff got started.
When he was managing Canseco, McGuire, etc, I don’t seem to remember him calling for “zero tolerance on anything, let alone PED use.
Its all self-serving horse manure and nothing more.
We’d do well with a zero tolerance policy for hypocrites.
I don’t think I would have heard about ANY of this Jamie Moyer garbage if it wasn’t a thread on the blog.
We would be talking about pitchers/catchers/brett gardner.
I don’t understand why Pete chooses to post every reaction to this A-Rod thing, and than asks us to focus on baseball on the blog and talk about the good things.
Makes just as such sense as LaRussa taking a stand on ANYTHING morally or ethically correct.
Why wasn’t he fired for his DWI experience, where he could have killed other people.
Who has steroids killed aside from the users in baseball?
SJ and others –
This is what gets me more than the steroid issue. Everyone trying to spin things so they look good. This bothers me more, a lot more, than whatever Alex did.
I don’t have a problem with Pete posting Moyer’s interview. Its news and its worth discussing.
You can’t as they say, “bury the lead”. Arod testing positive is a huge story.
I’d like to see a few more stories added which counteract some of the opinions from people like Moyer.
Such as Jason Whitlock’s piece on foxsports.com from yesterday.
I have no problem with Pete posting whatever he wants on his blog. It makes for interesting discussion.
SJ44
February 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
GB,
I don’t even think its that. I think people in the game want to be viewed by the media and the fans on the “right” side of this issue.
————————————————————
Yep. I don’t think the game is ever going to get things straight until everybody involved, including, the commissioner, MLB officers, Union heads, players (all of them), media and fans admit that they all screwed up from the start. We’re all guilty for not saying something or doing something. PEDs have been in use since the 20s, but, moreso, since the mid-late ’40s with the use of amphetamines.
Television contracts probably helped to keep a lid on things with the “Chics dig the long ball”, ads. Everybody got what they wnted…money and exposure….including writers. Until everyone comes clean, nobody’s clean. The Yankees are a guilty as anybody else, including players like Jeter, O’Neill, Rivera, for keeping quiet.
Where was Moyer’s indignation when a teammate got caught cheating last season in route to his team winning the World Series? What a punk to come out and speak against ARod but not say anything about Romero. BS Grandstanding. Maybe he wants a position in politics when he retires?
Joe,
Welcome to today’s world of sports business. Everybody postures to make themselves look good in the hopes profits continue to increase.
Blaming the players for the PED problem in baseball is like blaming the tellers for the banking crisis.
Nobody asks the tough questions. Such as, “Doesn’t it defy credibility that MLB can learn everything about a perspective draftee from high school and college, yet know NOTHING about PED use among its own players”?
Does anybody really believe ownership, the Commissioners Office and MLB Security had no idea they had rampant PED usage in the game from 1987-2004?
Honestly, does anybody really believe that?
Owners saw their investments in their teams rise by as much as 300% in value from 1987-2004.
‘splain somethin’ to me.
How many people among the fan base and media would talk about this issue if they owned a team and were reaping the kind of profits baseball owners reaped in that 17 year period?
The number of people who can HONESTLY raise their hands and say, “I would” is very, very small.
When you buy a team for 10 million in 1986 and its now worth 500 million today, you think you are talking?
EVERYBODY profited from the rise in the game. Especially the owners. They profited more than anybody.
Its easy to rip the players who tested positive. “They sullied the game”, according to Brain Dead Commissioner Bud Selig. As if the red juice, cocaine, and greenie eras did not when they were in their respective heydays.
Ripping the players is easy, lazy and the people who do it are tyring to sound “smart” and “right” on this issue.
Problem is, when you peel away the moralizing, and REALLY examine the issue, you realize just how dumb some of these people sound.
SJ-
I agree, as a blog, Pete is just keeping us informed.
My only, I guess, misunderstanding stems from his frustration, in the past few days, Pete has displayed regarding A-Rod/steroids talk. In fact, in a specific post, he asked us to keep away from talking about A-Rod/PED and post in the previous thread if you want to talk about it. I LOVED that he did that. I think he just wanted to get back to baseball, something we all did.
But now Jamie Moyer? Like, really? This, mind you, is Sunday, two days before position players report, where we ALL know the circus that will ensue. I think we could have all used a well deserved A-Roid free weekend on the blog.
That being said, I appreciate all that Pete does with his insight and updates. Best Yankees blog on the net. It’s the page that first loads when I initially open my browser. I’m sure many would concur.
This is a very difficult time to determine how to feel about these issues. If you dismiss it as “everybody is/was doing it”, so what’s the big deal, you are complicit with what is going on. Also, sportmanship is supposed to be about integrity and fair competition. However, the best competitors do whatever it takes to win and get an edge. You want your guys to be the best they can be.
Furthermore, getting indignant about it, and getting on your high horse, accomplishes nothing. Plus, your favorite player you think is clean may just be next. Think anybody who roots for the Cardinals or Red Sox can be too loud in their criticism of Arod and others right now? Certainly not until at least the other 103 leak out.
Why didn’t more players and owners come forward and complain during the “steroid era”?
As SJ alluded to above maybe it’s a case of simple economics.
Post-strike of the mid 90’s until today – minimum player salaries and average player salaries nearly tripled.
Fan attendance was at an all time high.
Players were putting up better numbers – salaries were going up – fans were clicking the turnstiles. Who wants to play Chicken Little and say “the sky is falling?”
In a more than likely fruitless effort to change the subject for a brief period of time,
Has anybody gotten word of anything on Melky regarding physique?
I feel like he stand to profit from losing a few pounds.
If possible, it could help him add depth to his game on the base paths, much like Gardner. Though, IMO, Gardner will stand to be much faster regardless.
At the same time, I think Cabrera will be the better hitter, everything considered. I feel like he tried to hit for power last year. Can’t explain it or give evidence, just what it felt like.
Mark,
That’s why its such a complicated issue.
Many fans try to go back to their days of playing ball discussing what sportsmanship and fairness should be in pro sports.
That ain’t how it is in pro sports. Its a cutthroat business and people do whatever it takes to try and gain an advantage. Fair or not.
The best coach in football got caught cheating. Probably won a Super Bowl because of the advance information he got from cheating. His players knew he was cheating every week (until he got caught) and said nothing. Why? Because it increased their chances of winning. In other words, it was a team-wide conspiracy to cheat and gain an advantage over the competition.
Their All-Pro S got caught using HGH. No extreme moral outrage over either story.
Arod test positive? Honestly, I think only burning himself at the stake would make some in the media get over it. Even if he did that, some members of the media would then ask, “Can he come back from the dead and kill himself all over again”?
When you discuss this topic with people, and they can’t give you real answers, they go to cliches. The big one being, “what do I tell my kids”?
Well, let’s see. How ’bout, “despite the size of your tax return or your fame, if you screw up, you can ruin your reputation”. I don’t know, call me crazy but, I think that’s a pretty valuable lesson to teach a little kid.
A lot more valuable than say, staking out the team hotel, getting a players autograph(s), then putting it up for sale on EBay to make a few bucks.
Its a VERY complicated issue with no easy answers. If we are just going to dumb down the debate by playing “gotcha” whenever a player gets caught, we can’t be surprised when real discussion never takes place on this issue.
Lets talk about all the moyer and la dui stuff in the moyer post, this pic shows actual baseball which is what we need to talk about
Why is it so shocking that there is this much reaction to Arod? He was afterall considered to be the best player in the game, the one who was going to “untaint” the HR record.
watching the drills they do to the catchers is pretty cool. There do a few with the guys on that side field, but when they get a big group of 6 of them they move to the side field where the pitchers warm up. Ive seen them dfo this race where they use the pitching matchine and have the guys try to block the plate. They do it in a way where once a guy misses a ball, they get on them and stuff. Pretty entertaining to watch.
SJ44-
I just watched, on Hot Stove, Cashman’s interview. He was asked if he is confident Alex hasn’t used with the team. He responded by saying he has been tested, but these last few years have shattered his confidence.
He said he couldn’t, at this point, comment on any player because he doesn’t really know, much like many of us.
Do you think this will change, in any way, how Cashman goes after players and offers contracts in the future? More investigation into the player, his numbers, the people he has around him, etc?
Even more generally, does anybody believe that teams have really investigated the issue of PED’s when signing a guy to a contract?
I feel like that is something missing from all of this. MLB officials and players deserve blame as well, but team officials, scouts, and what have you, must, to some degree know what is going on?
How do you define “tainted”? Aaron got messed over by more than Bonds (and in the future A-Rod). Small ballparks have distorted numbers as well. Comparing eras/generations is useless.
I know this is going to get some grief most likely but frankly, the players can have one opinion and the fans can have another. It makes sense for non-cheating players like moyer to step up and say alex has no credibility and he is angry because the clean players have to play against a player doing roids and they have the disadvantage.
However, the players do not listen to 1050 and 880 on a consistent basis. They probably dont even read the blog or all the sports papers/magazines all that much. They concentrate on playing. The fans are the ones that hear everything from the media – so we know what type of reaction this is getting far more than the players. Plus, we dont care about alex having an edge against guys like moyer six years ago in texas. We care far more about the yankees winning now. So that means we care about ridding the team is distractions so that they can win. Ridding the team of distractions means hoping the media will stop crucifying alex and putting this solely on his shoulders and start blaming everyone who they know if guilty in the game of baseball over the last two decades.
Finally, its nice that moyer is stepping up now that arod is already being killed by everyone else and adding in his own jabs but where was this guy ten years ago when the MLBPA was refusing to have testing? i DONT remember a single player coming forward and saying they wanted to have a clean game again. And you dont think every single player out there knew what was going on at some point? That is quite a reach. So if moyer cares so much, he should have gathered together some other players and tried to get the mlbpa to let some testing into the game or at least make PEDs use against the rules. The fact that he did nothing and neither did any other player, means they didnt care about use at the time and what does that say about moyers credibility in this? Everyone in and around the game was guilty at some point of knowing what was up and doing absolutely nothing. Then, coming around years later and killing arod for it. Its just ridiculous is all.
Well everyone benefited so of course the number of players who said something was miniscule. If there was no $252, there would be no $189 ( wasn’t Jeter supposed to get $118, but just by A-Rod’s signing alone and nothing to do with his numbers Jeter got the increase?) and there would be no $170 either.
*minuscule
I agree the Moyer interview is good food for thought and discussion and he reaks of hypocrisy as much as Selig, LaRussa and our own beloved Goose among others.
I think Pete should stop treating anyone as clean and pure the driven snow when he can’t possibly know that. He should also stop using the words “Cheat” “Cheater” and “Cheated” because it’s really inflammatory and he doesn’t use it with Pettite and never used it with Giambi
On a much more positive note, it is very nice to see posada in a catchers uniform. I thought the team said he was strictly dh to start the spring but i guess thats just in the games. I know he said he can play a lot more games than we think he can but i guess he is looking into a crystal ball because its hard to tell the future just like that. I bet he said last off-season that he would play in the wide majority of the games but injuries do happen to catchers in their late 30s.
I think around 110 is a solid numbers to stick with – I dont think the team should push posada too hard nor should he push himself too hard. Id rather him play 110 games and have him fresh for the playoffs than have another injury whatsever even a minor one. So I think the yanks should just plan it out to have him pitch a specific number of games like they have joba making a specific number of starts. I think it will work out much better that way. I just hope we can find a better hitting backup catch somewhere and replace cash. Maybe cervelli will be decent this year.
I dont mind the posts. They allow us to see how hypocritical these guys are.
LaRussa has a problem with steroids? Really? He coached Mark McGwire TWICE!!!! Canseco? Ankiel? Giambi too i think…
Jamie Moyer as has been mentioned, didnt say a word when Romero tested positive, the same guy who helped him win a title.
And i have to get my Travis Hafner pot-shot in here too. He says he has nothing to hide. Be careful man!
His numbers looked good the first couple years, and he has had nothing but injuries since. I doubt you want people investigating you.
Pete you really are poring on the rodriguez criticism and i dont really think it will ever go over well or you will ever have little dissent in a yankees blog especially considering the fact that this whole thing was 6 years ago and not even on the yankees. Arod could not have used after his arrival to NY because at that point, testing was in place and there were already repercussions for being caught. Since then, I dont think a single name has not been published who tested positive. So if your expecting to kick arod when he is down and have the fans overwhelming support about it – i would think again because most fans realize that we gain very little from adding to the already harsh environment or at least the reasonably intelligent yankee fans out there are more likely to be thinking along those line.
Pena is awesome. i think girardi’s problem is he played with some of these guys. yankees need a manager who is older, someone they will see as a manager and not a friend.
Pena
Buck
Lou
I was re-watching baseball by ken burns and something struck me. Back when baseball was a young sport, a pitcher invited the curve ball. People where up in arms. They were claiming that throwing the curve ball was beyond the pale because it was cheating. In fact the president of Harvard was angry that his team won a tournament because one of his players was throwin the curve ball, men from harvard dont deceive.
the fact remains, to this date, we have no idea if PED really E the P. There aren’t any test real test done. You claim that PED damage the body, well, anyone can argue that a pitching the curve ball damages your elbow.
baseball is a game of trying to deceive the other team. Think what it means to be a pitcher and what it means to be a batter.
One can take this argument even further. Glasses in baseball, tommy john surgery, batting gloves…etc etc etc.
Until someone can prove that thanks to PED Arod’s career has benefited, or for that matter, anyone elses, then I say, who cares. And these media and jamie moyer types that claim to be morally outraged, i say, look at the history of the sport and gain some perspective.
Not to mention that a ball that bounced on the field of play, then over the wall in fair territory, used to be a home run. They changed the rule to a ground rule double in @ 1930.
Babe Ruth had 2 such home runs in 1927, putting his HR total by today’s rules at 58. There is no allowance or asterisk for that, nor should there be. In fact, the AL played under the current rule in 1930, the NL didn’t switch until 1931. Inconsistencies abound amongst the baseball records, and always will.
misgames-
glasses and tommy john surgery never extended a 37 year-olds career by making him capable of throwing upper 90′s stuff late into games at the twilight of his career.
Joey -
Careful what you say there. TJ surgery can definitely have the effect you just stated.
It’s funny to read some of the A-Rod comments. Obviously there is nothing the guy can do that would cause him to lose the faith of some people. Hey, that’s fine. You support your team.
But whether you care for it or not, Jamie Moyer is not some lone nut or an unreasonable person. This is a guy who has been in the game for a long time as Alex’s teammate. That was the reason I posted the link, to show that this is significant issue for Alex and could well effect how he plays this season.
Of course the response will be to rip him. Better that than to actually consider what he says. Just kill the messenger and blame everybody else except the guy who actually took the steroids.
If A-Rod had been traded to the Red Sox, which nearly happened, you would all be killing him now. At least admit that.
I’ve written many times that I don’t considre guys who used steroids pre-testing to be cheating. Many do, and that’s fine but I disagree.
Baby Doc Selig, the “Commissioner for Life” delivered a message in 1998 that every player in the game heard loud and clear. When he blew off the presence of Andro in McGuire’s locker he was sanctioning its use. To see this otherwise is not based in fact.
There are those who are upset the steroid era has ruined the all-time numbers of the game. PLEASE! We have had stats altered by a dead ball era where guys could pitch every other day and live ball eras where the ball jumped out of stadiums. We had the “no blacks allowed” and “very few hispanics allowed” eras.
We had a high mound with large strike zone and stadiums loaded with foul territory become flat mounds with postage stamp sized strike zones and minimal foul territory.
We’ve had artificial turf and natural grass. Long train rides and chartered luxury jets. Each era has its own uniqueness that makes it distinct from others. We had the amphetemine era where base stealing was all the rage and the DH era that began cutting into it.
This, unfortunately is an era were steroid use meant more power, higher ERAs and less base stealing.
The game itself binds each era together, but the notion that there is a significant level of comparison from era to era is a romantic notion that is absent in reality.
bad news for Ramero Mendoza…he failed his physical and has left the Brewers camp. Would have been nice to see him come back and contribute again.
let me re-phrase: TJ surgery can’t post you a 13-8 1.87 ERA in 221 innings and 185 SO’s @ age 42.
I would rip him. And I, for one, don’t condone/defend everything Alex does. I blame A-Rod and believe he deserves the criticism that he is receiving.
That being said, I would still be able to recognize the hypocrisy and timing of Jamie Moyer coming out with comments about A-Rod. Especially given his 2008 WS teammate tested positive and we didn’t hear a thing about it.
SJ has said it better, regarding Moyer, than i could put it. He could have done ALOT of things while this stuff was going on. And if he is half as intelligent as you’d give him, he would have an idea this was happening. People/numbers are just as much a fraud then that they are now. And he is just as much affected.
Pete— I will admit no such thing because I’ve never attacked any of the alleged steroid/HGH users. All I have said is that guys who aren’t hall of famers without hyped power nunmbers — McGuire, Sosa, Palmeiro would not get my vote and those that are — Bonds, Clemens and ARod would.
I have no problem with Moyer’s comments, but you didn’t address the hypocrisy he shows in not saying a word about Romero. That is a completely legitimate criticism of his comments. He absolutely has credibility as a long time major leaguer… but none of us has a clue what he’s ingested over the course of that career.
That’s not an accusation, it’s just a factual statement.
Just as we have no idea which MLB players are taking HGH now.
Pete… barring significant new information or actual news, is there any chance that you could make this blog an Arod-free zone, including all the comments.
I suppose that’s asking too much, free speech and all.
Personally, I really don’t ever want to hear another word about the guy, unless he does something of significance to baseball (and maybe not even then).
I have no understanding why some people here have been writing hundreds of words a day — every day — on the subject. Especially in threads that have NOTHING to do with Arod (i.e. most of them). It’s so boring and pointless. Some folks really need to get out more.
It wouldn’t be so bad if they restricted whining about it to Arod related threads — but no, they have to pollute every thread with endless, tedious, over-speculation.
Meanwhile some nitwit just compared steroids to No-Doze and Red Bull.
Well, sure, Primobolin is a controlled substance, illegal to posses without a prescription and costs $1,500 per use You can buy Red Bull in a gas station and it costs $2.50. They’re exactly the same.
I dont have a problem with pete posting the moyer interview but I do mind when he posts something like that and then, thinks I am posting too much about it and that I should just concentrate on the baseball. Pete, you keep bringing it up and we will keep talking about it. You stop and most of us stop talking about it. Yesterday, there was barely a thing mentioned about arod in your posts and i didnt see a single comment about him in the comments that i can recall. Its all up to you my friend – you lead this discussion for the most part and usually, you lead it in a great direction.
Pete,
What’s your comment about Moyer’s teammate JC Romero?
Why is it encumbent on anyone to lose faith in ARod or any player? The fact is, it’s not. But you, for whatever reasons have an axe to grind against him and were grinding it here before last week’s revelation.
Arod at least admitted he took something, but, Pete, you continue to deny and be disingenuous about all the passive aggressive shots you’ve taken about him.
Makes for fun reading.
Pete –
The Moyer comment –
*“What does he have to play for now?”* – is a little over the top, no?
In your profession, if a noted baseball writer was found to be guilty of plagiarism – you might be ticked, you might be disillusioned – but would you say – “What does he have left to write for now?”
Do you think he should leave the writing profession with his head in shame and go work for McDonalds?
Pete…the guy didn’t get traded to the Sawx and look at how the home crowd treats him…not by all, but many.
Pete,
I don’t anybody doubts this will be a significant issue for Arod this season.
My issue is, failing a 2003 drug test is what got Moyer engaged on this issue and not a more recent failed test by a current teammate, JC Romano?
Why one and not the other?
His “outrage” rings hollow to me.
Especially since as a player rep, he had involvement in past and present drug program policy in MLB.
Just seems like piling on instead of offering real perspective on the issue.
Pete,
What are the relative costs of crack and and pure cocaine?
“One positive test from Arod and all of these guys SUDDENLY find religion when it comes to this issue.
Amazing they don’t see how hypocritical they sound. Comical really.”
Not only that but the reporters who are doing the interview and those who are reacting to it seem to all take the player’s words as pure and honest fact and not hippocritical in the least. I dont see how the interviewer cannot question the validity of these comments when they played with known users. Further, how can the interviewer or reporters writing about this, not ask where all this outrage was 10. 5 or even a few years ago? And where were they when the players union would not budge regarding testing and they were player reps? How come there was no outrage over his fellow teammates using and how are they any more legitimate than arod?
This is why these stories are so annoying. They say they would never stand for this stuff now yet, they have known about it for years or even decades and have done absolutely nothing to counter. Its partly because of this that arod used in the first place – because in 2001, the PEDs were already pervasive in the MLB and without a single rule against it, without testing and with seemingly half of baseball doing it, with no media reporting on it and with no players rallying against it, why would a player ever think it was a huge deal to try it especially if they think it would give them an edge in a game where players are constantly looking for ways to get better? And if well over 50 percent of baseball used at some point, i mean its still cheating but players would almost feel like they had to use PEDs in order to be on equal footing with the rest of the sport. No one ever seems to mention that.
SNL joke from last night:
“Alex Rodriquez admitted to using steroids on Monday, but clearly not in October”.
I thought that was cute.
SJ-
Are JC and Ray related?
Everybody Loves JC
Pete, it would be one thing if Moyer had also ripped Romero, who is a current teammate was caught *this past season* and also helped PHI beat TB in the World Series. Since he did not, his comments are extremely hypocritical.
“Of course the response will be to rip him. Better that than to actually consider what he says. Just kill the messenger and blame everybody else except the guy who actually took the steroids.”
Geez Pete. I didn’t realize that observing that Moyer is being a tad hypocritical in his timing and what he says equated to giving ARod a pass. Is he right? I’d say so, but in my opinion his 22 years of silence tend to fly a litle in the face of the credibility that you say 22 years of service gives him. It is interesting that he wasn’t as outspoken on JC Romero when he had the chance, after all. He was a teammate too.
“If A-Rod had been traded to the Red Sox, which nearly happened, you would all be killing him now. At least admit that.”
Generalize much? I think I’ve been pretty consistent on this point of view, and quite frankly I’m sick of this argument being used as some kind of trump card, because its disingenuous. Do you really have such a low opinion of your readers, that you think they’re not capable of taking the same stance when it comes to Red Sox players? Its a problem that everyone has a degree of reponsiblity for – regardless of what team they were on.
“I don’t have a problem with Pete posting Moyer’s interview. Its news and its worth discussing.”
I do not think people here have an issue with posting the link.
It is the spinning, Pete did in his post.
As many stated he dislikes A-Rod and it is reflecting in his spinning.
I can undetstand the indignation over Moyer speaking out, but notice that nobody is bothered by “several Yankees” saying pretty much the same thing “off the record”.
To me, any player’s indignation is bogus, unless your name happens to be Rick Helling. The users are cheaters and those, like Moyer and the anonymous Yankees, were the cheaters’ chief enablers.
Pete doesn’t see the valid points being made about the selective outrage. Notice he always cherry picks the random comments to reply to.
Too many writers/ reporters just have analytical skills the depth of a birdbath. Who was Roy Oswalt speaking to when he ripped A-Rod? Did this person respond by asking, “How do you feel about the games you may have won and thus the money gained due to your own cheating teammates?” Did they ask him how he felt about having Andy and Roger on his team in Houston? Doubt it. They wait until they get behind their computer screens to get brave and ask the real questions they should have been asking for a long time.
Why do writers take at face value any player that says they didn’t need to take steroids? I would say that defense is meaningless considering one of the greatest in this generation used them.
Pete will never get that some people can be critical of many different things/ groups regarding steroids. In his eyes if you bother to feel anything other than anger over A-Rod you’re excusing his behavior and killing the messenger.
In my opinion, too many messengers aren’t being killed. If I had the time I’d do a blog on bad sports journalism. It would need about 50 people to keep up with all the garbage thats out there.
BBFan
February 15th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
“I don’t have a problem with Pete posting Moyer’s interview. Its news and its worth discussing.”
I do not think people here have an issue with posting the link.
It is the spinning, Pete did in his post.
As many stated he dislikes A-Rod and it is reflecting in his spinning.
————————————————————
His opinions will change when Rodriguez takes him to a few strip clubs and picks up the tabs, tells a few dirty jokes….you know, does a few of those “he’s a great guy ‘things’”.
“How do you define “tainted”? Aaron got messed over by more than Bonds (and in the future A-Rod). Small ballparks have distorted numbers as well. Comparing eras/generations is useless.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “messed over”. As far as small ballparks go, everyone of today plays in them. That’s the difference. Not everyone is using steroids.
“controlled substance, illegal to posses without a prescription ”
And so are greenies/amphetamines
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/csa/812.htm
I know that I sound like a broken record about this, but really, has anybody in the media ever point out that technically teams have been criminals for decades?
Why the uproar about drugs now when they’ve been in sports for decades upon decades?
I have no idea, nor do any of you, what Moyer has said about Romero.
Beyond that, the circumstances of Romero’s suspension are cloudy and to this day he denies having done anything worthy of suspension. His case involved supplements, not anabolic steroids.
Beyond that, the “two wrongs make a right” take is pretty lame. So because his teammate may have cheated. Moyer has no right to criticize Alex?
Maybe, just maybe, Alex is a little different level of player than Romero. The context is that Moyer is a veteran, successful, respected player. What he says is newsworthy.
Meaning there are many things that contribute to falling records. And people used crap during Aaron’s day too.
Lara08, I was just about to post the same thing. Oswalt wants Alex’s records erased. What about the NL championship the Astros won in 2005 with Clemens and Pettitte? Did he conveniently forget that? Should that be erased?
I don’t condone what Alex did. He was wrong. But for players to come out and bash only him is not fair. Many of them “benefitted” from playing with PED users, and yet they forget that.
“Do you really have such a low opinion of your readers, that you think they’re not capable of taking the same stance when it comes to Red Sox players?”
I think “having a low opinion of your” isn’t quite the same as recognizing a rampant lack objectivity. That’s what we’re dealing with here. The very definition of the word “fanatic” implies minimal objectivity when it comes to one’s favorite team and the teams they love to hate. There really isn’t anything wrong with it. But the fact is there’s been a lot of fanaticism on the board this week.
So if the level of the player matters then its NOT about keeping the game clean or saving the kids? The more you make people talk about steroids the more their reasons for being mad get weaker. About as weak as the apologies of the users.
“Do you really have such a low opinion of your readers, that you think they’re not capable of taking the same stance when it comes to Red Sox players? Its a problem that everyone has a degree of reponsiblity for – regardless of what team they were on.”
Interesting discussion Angel. I honestly think that most fans (including myself) are pretty biased to their own team and players.
I don’t think it is right that Arod was singled out among the more than 100 names. But I do think that if it had been David Ortiz that was the one name that came up you would see Red Sox fans who are now attacking Arod make all kinds of excuses for Ortiz, and conversely Yankee fans that are now supporting Arod vehemently attack Ortiz in the same situation.
I think, Pere has to be vary careful if he wants to keep this blog as the most visited, which is still the case. But I think he is antagonising many good posters here and it is only a matter of time before he loses them.
Previously, it was the only blog I used to visit.
But, after how biased he is against Girardi and A-Rod (before the steroid news), I just felt it is riduculos what he is doing and started visiting other blogs.
These days I come here only occasionally and post only rarely. I find RAB blog very balanced without any such bias. I also find lot of posters from here migrating to RAB and I am not surprised. The discussion that go there are more mature.
I will still continue to come here, but certainly not going to lose my sleep over Pete’s bias against Girarid and A-Rod.
GreenBeret:
Being that I like women that look like, you know, women, I doubt I would want to go to a strip club with A-Rod. Thanks anyway.
Well as far as it being a player on another team I felt the same way when it was Bonds. Back then when people were talking about asterisks I made the point that you have to put an asterisk by teams too. And that includes the Yankees.
Marion Jones’ team mates during the Olympics had to suffer with losing their medals too didn’t they? Anyone want to start marking up division, league and world series winners?
“Meaning there are many things that contribute to falling records. And people used crap during Aaron’s day too.”
What?
BBFAn:
That is a ridiculous post. The only “bias” I ever have had against Girardi is that I don’t believe he should lie to reporters.
Brian Cashman feels the same way. So I guess he’s biased, too. I’ve never once said anything bad about Girardi’s personality.
Obviously, unless I am in lock step with you, I’m biased.
Are you seriously going to try and compare amphetamines to steroids?
It isn’t that people are condoning or being ‘homers for Rodriguez’ that’s the issue, it’s the suddenly ‘loud’ Silent Majority leading the way when they should have been as equally, obnoxiously loud to begin with that’s the issue. They’ve become the Moral Majority for baseball…as they see it. Gotta love the professional “The Knights Of The Keyboards”. But, go ahead, PA…”kill the messengers”.
Pete,
That’s my point. It doesn’t matter what level player we are talking about. Romero did after all win 2 WS games. Does Jamie think his ring is tainted?
I find it hard to believe Arod is his tipping point in this issue.
As you know, rumors about Arod and PED’s have been around for years.
Players havevhad opinions about other players for years.
I guess I’m having difficulty Arod has opened the eyes of a 22 year vet to talk about PED’s when he has always been publicly silent on the issue.
ray
I think you are accurate in that assesment. I think there are alot of us waiting for that shoe to drop.
“Are you seriously going to try and compare amphetamines to steroids?”
So you’re saying that it’s ok to have one controlled substance, but not another.
Jamie Moyer says, Brian Cashman says, use social proof much, Pete?
Good Afternoon MaineYankee,
To be honest, I think I would be more surprised to find out that Big Papi never juiced than to find out that he did.
Well I guess Tom House (Aaron’s team mate) was lying when he said there was steroid use during his playing days and that he (House) took them. My bad.
“So you’re saying that it’s ok to have one controlled substance, but not another.”
No, I didn’t say that. You are however comparing a misdemeanor to a felony.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....CJ0SK1.DTL
Tom House talking about drugs in his era
“The very definition of the word “fanatic” implies minimal objectivity when it comes to one’s favorite team and the teams they love to hate. There really isn’t anything wrong with it. But the fact is there’s been a lot of fanaticism on the board this week.”
I think that “rampant lack of objectivity” observation, works both ways at times,unfortunately. Cherry-picking comments and then applying the logic (and sometimes lack of logic) to all fans, I just find a little demeaning Especially when a lot of people make a lot of good points and contribute lots of intelligent discussion, and its often the idiotic or inflammatory one’s that get responses.
“Being that I like women that look like, you know, women, I doubt I would want to go to a strip club with A-Rod. Thanks anyway.”
Meow!!
“No, I didn’t say that. You are however comparing a misdemeanor to a felony.”
So you’re saying that if it’s related to amphetamines (a Schedule III substance), then it’s a misdeamoner, and if it’s related to anabolic steroids (a Schedule III substance), then it’s a felony.
I’m glad you’re that objective. I was talking to a RS fan here about Ortiz and the increase in numbers since he came to Boston. He said it was just the diferrence in philosify from Minn. I didn’t go any further cause I knew it was a lost cause.
Usually this guy makes more sense than that.
Laura,
Its cute but pretty stupid. For one thing, alex used roids from 2001 to 2003 and he never made the playoffs that entire time – he was a ranger and they pretty much sucked pitching wise. So he probably didnt use roids in the playoffs because he was never in the playoffs during the entire time he was doing them.
Also, Alex has had all of 2 bad series in the playoffs – 2005 and 2006 in which he batted 133 and 071 with 0 rbis and 2 runs. HOWEVER, that was only over 2 series and a grand total of 29 at bats. That is absolutely nothing for a sample size. People conveniently forget that alex was pretty good against the indians in 2007 going 267 353 467 with a homer. And before, 2005, he was pretty much great every series. batting 313 308 409 421 and 258 with 6 homers and 3 stolen bases. Id also like to point out that the ALDS in 2004 with the yanks against the twins he was ridiculous hitting 421 476 737 with a homer and 3 doubles in 19 at bats and again, in the ALCS, when the yanks were winng games he did really well and his total line was 258 378 516 with two homers and two doubles.
So the first two playoff series with the yanks in 2004 he was pretty incredible, then, when the entire team sucked in 2005 and 2006 so did alex although that was all of 29 at bats. Then, against the indians in 2007, he was pretty decent and there was no playoffs last year. So three solid to great playoff series and two terrible ones and the perception is alex is a zero in october – then, there were 3 series in 97 and 2000 in which alex was solid in the playoffs as well. You might remember arod playing us in 2000 and going 9 for 22 with two homers and 5 rbis.
So playoff success is volatile and even the great derek jeter batted a mere 176 in 2007 (to arods 267) and 200 against boston in 2004. For all alex’s supposed post-season failures, his total post-season line reads 279 361 483 in 147 at bats with 9 doubles and 7 homers. Jeters at 309 377 469. And while arod is better during the season, he has had far less opportunities to succeed, has never been to a world series and comparing his total stats to jeter who is one of the better playoff players in history, is not all that much different.
Arod may not help us win the division series but once he has gotten to the ALCS, he has really acclimated to the presssure putting up 315 413 611 in 2 series and 54 at bats. Compare that to his career line of 306 389 578 and imagine that, he has risen to the challenge in the ALCS batting far higher than his career averages in all three categories. So it is clear people have some bias toward arods 2005 and 2006 performance but everyone and even jeter has a bad series in the playoffs as the alds are extremely short. Give arod some time by winning the first series on pitching and supporting cast and arod will likely flourish once he gets used to the bright lights of october.
E-Man
February 15th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
“So you’re saying that it’s ok to have one controlled substance, but not another.”
No, I didn’t say that. You are however comparing a misdemeanor to a felony.
————————————————————
In case you hadn’t noticed, both are controlled substances, both are performance enhancing, and possessing, selling, using or dispensing are all felonies.
PETE,
I dunno where you get primo from but it isn’t $1,500 for a dose
“So you’re saying that if it’s related to amphetamines (a Schedule III substance), then it’s a misdeamoner, and if it’s related to anabolic steroids (a Schedule III substance), then it’s a felony.”
No I’m not saying that because amphetamines are a Schedule II substance and steroids are a Schedule III substance.
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/scheduling.html
I live in the Philly area…Jamie Moyer has made no comments to the local media regarding his set-up man’s use of PED’s during the 2008 season.
http://oversight.house.gov/doc.....-66425.pdf
Congressional press release from 1973 stating that ‘improper’ drug use, including amphetamines and anabolic steroids existed in throughout all sports and levels of competition, ‘with few exceptions’.
February 15th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Being that I like women that look like, you know, women, I doubt I would want to go to a strip club with A-Rod. Thanks anyway.
Pete – now I’m getting upset. How dare you!!!
I don’t want to hear this scandalous stuff now. This is why we have books from highly respectable writers with impeccable credentials.
If you keep this up – I’m ratting you out to Selena.
…
Okay first of all LOL. But your comments and acknowledgment of steroid usage before the latest “steroid era” is only appreciated by “A-Rod apologists”.
Angel – A tale told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing
February 15th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Meow!!
————————————————————
Alright, now…don’t tease me, Angel.
What’s next? Are you going to compare weed to steroids? That can be peformance enhancing too! People concentrate more. Or how about LSD? Dock Ellis threw a no-hitter on it, it must be performance enhancing too!
unreal.
If A-Rod had been traded to the Red Sox, which nearly happened, you would all be killing him now. At least admit that.
____
If he was traded to the Sox, this would have never happened. People who play for the Red Sox actually manage to avoid getting caught.
E-Man do you think nothing of that Tom House article?
Cortizone can be a PED. It takes away pain and allows you to play through an injury that you may not be able to play through without it.
You can see that anything that increases your chances to succeed can be a PED.
As for the Rangers in 01-03, apparently whatever they were taking was NOT helping them win.
“No I’m not saying that because amphetamines are a Schedule II substance and steroids are a Schedule III substance.”
You realize that Schedule II is worse than Schedule III, right?
If the league found there was enough evidence to convince them that romero should be suspended, I think we all have to go out on a limb and assume he was using some illegal PED. I doubt it was just some ingredient from a bottle at the local gas station. And i really find it hard to believe gnc has bottles that contain illegal substances but never realized it and the player got tested and caught because of it.
And we mean that moyer’s comments about Romero if there were any, never made any sort of publication or news report that any of us read. Usually a player calling out another player on his own team for PEDs use makes the news if he did it in front of a reporter. If he did it in the privacy of the locker room, thats fine but then, he bashed arod publicly which is a bit different. We all know moyer has been in the league forever so he knows a lot but the longer he was in the league, the longer he knew about and basically ignored the PED issue until it became public knowledge and then, he takes action which means nothing.
Its just so hippocritical that a clean player who is in and a rep for the union went through all of the MLBPA refusing to instate testing or make a rule did nothing to promote any of this when it was relevant at the time and actually stop use but now, can come out of the woodwork to say what a horrible person arod is. It just seems like another guy trying to save face at the detriment of arod just like selig and larussa and hicks, etc. Why do they feel the need to kick arod when he is down but never felt any sort of moral obligation to stop the pervasive use when it was still a major problem? Where were they when around half of baseball was using to some extent most likely?
They were saying and doing nothing as was the media and the rest of the owners and the commissioners office and the “clean players”. So they can all cry and scream about how arod ruined the game and how it is a disgrace and how they cheated major league baseball and themselves but no one seemed to be doing anything to stop the guys who were using which in turn probably would have prevented alex from using in the first place.
Nor does anyone seem to care that arod is getting the blame for everyone including the othr 103 guys on the list and all the other cheaters out there who were lucky enough to not get caught. So while i THINK it was a violation of privacy to get the first name, i now think the violation is worth it to prevent arod for carrying the weight of 20 years of abuse on his shoulders. And at least this time, a court will decide and the names will be released semi-legally as opposed to government leaks and court order violations. You media-type are so blinded by your overwhelming angst over arod that you dont take the time to look around and see how hippocritical and ridiculous some people are being about this mess.
“E-Man do you think nothing of that Tom House article?”
Pretty much. How does that affect Hank Aaron?
“You realize that Schedule II is worse than Schedule III, right?”
So you’re saying that Marijuana (Schedule I) is worse than Heroin (Schedule II)?
Thanks, that’s all I needed to know E-Man. LOL
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/csa/841.htm
Barring more serious mentions, Schedule I and II get starting penalties of up to 20 years or fine of up to 1 million for an individual
Schedule III get starting penalties of up to 5 years or fines of up to 250k
“So you’re saying that Marijuana (Schedule I) is worse than Heroin (Schedule II)?”
As far as penalties go, roughly the same (as mentioned earlier that Schedules I & II share the same, barring specific examples). Although it does take 1000 kg of marijuana to get the same penalty as 1 kg of heroin, or 100 kg of marijuana to get the same penalty as 100 g of heroin.
I just read this article about how senior Wall Street executives were sure Madoff was a fraud but said nothing about it. They must have been getting nice checks in their own personal accounts so they didn’t care.
And then, its from the NY Post (which scares me) so who knows.
Or 1000 marijuana plants, or 100 marijuana plants, regardless of mass.
Whatever man, you win. Steroids are like nicotine right? You’re one of those people right? Or are they like glasses?
Ah, coming back full circle
See, you’re not angry at steroids because it’s cheating or it’s illegal. You’re angry at steroids because of how it’s cheating.
The Sporting News has an excellent interview with former commissioner Faye Vincent.
Mr Vincent offers the most balanced, non-inflammatory take on Alex…and the steroid era. He is very tough but fair in his comments on Alex, Bonds, Clemens and the player’s union.
Faye Vincent is a an intelligent man whose comments on PED’s and baseball…cut to the heart of the problem without making it personal.
check out the link…you will have to paste the address to hear the interview…well worth the listen.
‘http://www.sportingnews.com/me.....;title=Fay Vincent on steroids
By the way people, the absolute finest, most prolific and informative baseball blogs covering PEDs is: ‘Only Baseball Matters’. http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/
John J Perricone is one of the original bloggers, and still continues to put out great stuff. I have been following him for years, and heave learned a tremendous amount about this issue. Throughout the years, John has posted some amazing links for information about PEDs.
As a S.F. Giants, and Barry Bonds fan, John has really gotten into this, and done a lot of research. It is MUST reading. Take a look folks, It’s great stuff.
You should really go into his archives and read his posts back was Mr. Bonds was getting so much attention.
What is cortisone? (with an ‘s’… not ‘z’
Cortisone is a type of steroid that is produced naturally by a gland in your body called the adrenal gland. Cortisone is released from the adrenal gland when your body is under stress. Natural cortisone is released into the blood stream and is relatively short-acting.
Injectable cortisone is synthetically produced and has many different trade names (e.g. Celestone, Kenalog, etc.), but is a close derivative of your body’s own product. The most significant differences are that synthetic cortisone is not injected into the blood stream, but into a particular area of inflammation. Also, the synthetic cortisone is designed to act more potently and for a longer period of time (days instead of minutes).