Teixeira poised for return
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Apr 14, 2009 
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The Yankees have had some … let’s say interesting lineups the last two days. But tonight should a little more standard if Mark Teixeira returns. Teixeira had an MRI on his left wrist yesterday that showed only inflammation.
With a right-hander pitching for Tampa Bay, Tex should be able to hit lefty. The injury bothers him most when he swings right-handed. He has missed three days.
The Yankees also may need to make a move tonight to strengthen their bullpen. Jon Albaladejo and Phil Coke would seem to be candidates to be optioned out.
Impressive line this morning, and watch by middle afternoon the sun will be out and it’ll be gorgeous, welcome back to florida!
I would think Claggett and Robertson get the call-up and Albaladejo and Phil Coke get sent down. Even if Robertson pitched yesterday it was 42 pitches and can pitch tomorrow if needed..Claggett last pitch on Saturday….Both are on the 40 man roster……Coke needs to go down and find himself…..it seems he lost some of that speed on that fastball of his……
ok i need to know
who was the LAST yankee to PITCH and have an atbat in an AMERICAN league game, NON Post season?
i have no idea but i need to know!
and then
who was the LAST yankee to PITCH and have an homerun in an AMERICAN league game, NON Post season?
I’d send Coke down. I don’t know if what he did at the end of last season was a fluke, but he has not been good so far this season.
kevin – to expand on that:
who was the last american league pitcher to notch a home run and a strikeout in the same game? i would not be surprised if it was babe ruth.
welcome to the HOF, swish! historic performance last night!
what was so “interesting” about yesterday’s lineup?
with Teixeira out and a lefty on the mound, i’d say the lineup was exactly as expected.
serious question. i don’t get the snark.
shockingly, 1972. not during babe ruth times!
http://www.baseball-reference......9280.shtml
Lindy McDaniel
hit a solo shot in the top of the 8th, then gave up the tying run in the bottom half.
he also had 2K’s
Last night’s game shows how vitale a long man is to the bulpen. Tomko probably should have gotten a spot over coke or albaladejo. I think he deserves a shot now but there isn’t much wiggle room on the 40man.
If we’re lucky it will be Melanacon who hasn’t pitched in a couple of games.
But we’re not lucky cause he’s not on the 40 man.
It will likely be Claggett and or Steven Jackson or Robertson.
rb15
I think that’s probably been done dozens of times since the Babe last did it. Earl Wilson of the Tigers (and other teams) probably did it multiple times. Bob Lemon probably too.
I would love to see Melancon and Tomko brought up today and if that happens I think that Melancon can stay for the long haul.
“Tomko probably should have gotten a spot over coke or albaladejo. I think he deserves a shot now but there isn’t much wiggle room on the 40man.”
Tomko sucks. we have 10 years of data that says he sucks.
if there is one thing we’ve learned, isn’t it that Spring Training numbers are completely, 100% worthless??
Gardner? looks exactly as bad as he did last year.
Coke? was great in spring training
Swisher? had a bad spring training
i don’t disagree that a longman might be needed, but let’s not act like Tomko not making the team was some injustice b/c he had a great spring training.
perhaps Jackson can serve as the longman, since he was a starter. or maybe Aceves.
but Tomko will probably come up and suck, and we shouldn’t be surprised if that happens.
john – thanks. you’re probably right on wilson (he hit a home run during a no-hitter in 1962). i don’t have time to google anything else.
still, something you don’t see too often. interesting night last night – here’s hoping cmw rights the ship before i head to the stadium on saturday.
Coke & Albaladejo down, Tomko & Robertson up.
“Coke & Albaladejo down, Tomko & Robertson up.”
who got DFA’ed? Hacker?
Sorry, that was just IMO.
no problem. wasn’t clear.
So.. I need some advice.
I have Burnett and Garza on my fantasy team. Do I start one or both of them??
I have Lester, too, and he pitched horribly yesterday so I need to make up for it.
rb15- felix hernandez hit a grand slam last season i believe
I wish they would Option Veras instead of Alby. I know he’s out of options, but the yanks have sooooo many right handed relievers in spades, who cares if he signs somewhere else
anthony – thanks. you’re ruining my attempt to take something positive out of last night’s game, though.
RB15
Sabathia did it last year.
Joe and Even ripping Citi Field.
ESPN reports Isaiah Thomas hired as head coach of Florida International. Imagine Isaiah showing up at your house to recruit your kid.
Pretty clear to me that Claggett will get a call if the Yankees bring anyone up. He’s on the 40, is pitching well and is rested.
Doesn’t matter if Tomko sucks. He’ll be pitching in games where Wang…uh, I mean our starter has already put us in a huge hole. His role will be to give us 4 or 5 innings so we don’t have to crash and burn the entire bullpen again.
“who was the last american league pitcher to notch a home run and a strikeout in the same game? i would not be surprised if it was babe ruth.”
Been awhile, but not THAT long. Jim Kaat did it about 15 times, the last one being 1972. I’m sure several have done it over the years leadng to 1973. Swish actually homered as a 1B, so it wouldn’t count as a PITCHER homering and striking out a batter, but a PLAYER doing so.
Funny how people forget Wang’s past success because he’s pitched two bad games. More pathetic than funny, but either way it makes me chuckle.
Nice to get Tex back tonight to take some of the pressure off Posada, Cano and Matsui. Will he DH or play first? With Swisher hitting the way he is you need to make a spot for him every day. Sit Matsui tonight:
Jeter ss
Damon lf
Swisher 1b
Teixeira dh
Posada c
Cano 2b
Nady rf
Berroa 3b (might as well see what he has)
Gardner cf
A.J. meets his first real challenge of the season as he needs to play stopper tonight against another excellent pitcher in Matt Garza.
“rb15- felix hernandez hit a grand slam last season i believe”
Good point. Forgot about inter-league play.
darn it.
too bad we lost dan geiss.
swisher will be beaned by garza tonite.
Yovanni Gallardeo hit a home run THIS season…
Government bailout for the Texas Rangers?
Tom Hicks’ company which includes ownership of the Rangers missed a $10M interest payment and a default notice has been issued
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes......-defaults/
matsui is clearly hurt. he can’t run, it’s got to effect his swing. posada should dh tonite. berroa isn’t on the team, you mean pena and i agree, sit ransom.
cb-
i did a little reading from what you said yesterday about ” fault tolerance” concerning wang and having back up systems to fall back on when things go wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fault-tolerant_system
“Recovery from errors in fault-tolerant systems can be characterised as either roll-forward or roll-back. When the system detects that it has made an error, roll-forward recovery takes the system state at that time and corrects it, to be able to move forward. Roll-back recovery reverts the system state back to some earlier, correct version, for example using checkpointing, and moves forward from there. ”
to use this terminology, rollback recovery is what has worked with wang in the past . when he has had bad starts, he spent the time between starts going back to a correct version of himself.
the way he did this in 2006 and 2007 is that he called the guy who taught him the sinker in the first place. i don’t want to say to much because i don’t want anyone getting in trouble as pitchers and former coaches aren’t supposed to be continuing a coaching relationship when they are in different organizations.
on his own,wang obviously can’t return himself back to the correct version of himself because he wouldn’t have had to make all those calls if he could. it’s entirely possible the calls have stopped because the two teams involved are in the same division and are now competing with each other. i suspect that wang has been on his own for the first time .
peter a. said wang believes, ” the issue was where he released the ball, which was off to the side instead of over the top.” i think this shows wang himself doesn’t understand what makes him tick. i also suspect that eiland doesn’t either and that wang got this explanation from eiland. wang is very coachable in that he does what he’s told. that’s good only if he’s told the right thing
can eiland get wang back to his former correct version? i think there’s a chance he can’t because he doesn’t seem to understand what the changes were made to wang at triple a in the first place. so now the challenge is to roll back the system state to a former correct version.
i think the problem lies in that the one person who knows what the correct version is works for another team now. as i said, i have a hunch they have stopped talking so the problem is how to get back to the correct version of wang’s sinker without the input of the original designer of the system.
in spring training, in one game where wang was hammered i saw wang trying to get his arm up higher and coming over the top more. it looked very forced and very wrong. it looked like he had been coached to do this and was trying to do it. if he was and still is, i believe this is a mistake.
i believe it’s a mistake because wang had a perfect arm slot in the first place for the sinker. that’s why his triple a pitching coach showed him the sinker in the first place. his natural arm slot is what makes the ball sink. this new higher arm slot that the yankees seem to be pushing seems wrong.
you could see it last night when wang tried to go high over his head and awkwardly bounce the ball in front of the plate a few times that the whole motion is out of sync and unnatural. to get back to the correct version, eiland needs to quit messing with his arm slot. he just needs to get him to use the proper grip, shorten his stride, and let the ball sink using his natural arm slot. when wang would call outside the system this was what was told to him, and judging by results, it always worked.
i do think, unless the yankees figure out how to get wang back to the correct version ,wang is in serious trouble.
.. and cb thanks for the info about fault tolerant design. interesting stuff.
“Yovanni Gallardeo hit a home run THIS season…”
National leaguer. Rb was asking about AL hurlers.
Posada caught a tough long game last night he’s not catching tonight. Plus Burnett is pitching so Molina will be behind the plate.
But I would think about about DH Posada and sitting Matsui.
SS Jeter
)
LF Damon
1B Teixeira
DH Posada
2B Cano
RF Swisher
3B Pena (but Girardi is going to go with Ransom
CF Gardner
C Molina
I don’t know if it’s been discussed in other posts but I’m surprised that the Beckett-Abreau incident hasn’t drawn more attention.
I remember the Sox had a different opinion once upon a time.
“I didn’t know pitches were coming at some one’s head at 98 miles per hour. I didn’t see any other pitches out of the strike zone,” Youkilis said
I don’t want to make no comment about that. I don’t think it’s fair,” said David Ortiz. “Guys throw 100 at some body’s head. They hit somebody in the head at that velocity, you know you’re going to have a negative result. He’s young. He will learn.”
But those quotes were from 2 years ago when Joba was throwing the ball and Youk was at bat.
Now nothing.
Funny how silence an be deafening sometimes.
If there is anything Girardi should have learned from last year it’s that you need a long man in the pen at least at the beginning of the season.
You cannot really tell from spring training what you have as was evident both this year and last. Wang was pretty good in spring and has been lost his first 2 starts. And last year both Hughes and Kennedy destroyed the bullpen within the first 2 weeks.
They should have taken a long man. Instead, one of our pitchers is going to get hurt like last year by mis-using them.
Once the rotation is strong and consistent enough the long man can spot start for Joba to limit his innings or be sent down for one of the other relievers.
Swisher won’t be in tonight’s lineup due to overusage last night.
Steve B
CC Sabathia
“I wish they would Option Veras instead of Alby. I know he’s out of options, but the yanks have sooooo many right handed relievers in spades, who cares if he signs somewhere else”
this post makes no sense.
ALB3
April 14th, 2009 at 10:17 am
So.. I need some advice.
I have Burnett and Garza on my fantasy team. Do I start one or both of them??
I have Lester, too, and he pitched horribly yesterday so I need to make up for it.
——————————
funny i have all three guys myself. lester is killing us huh?!!
i’m going to play both of them tonight. hopefully you get the win from AJ and a low whip ERA and some K’s from Garza.
Girardi might shuffle the rotation. Wang is set to pitch Saturday against Cleveland, then the following week his spot comes up on an off day, with Boston the following night. If he does pitch against the Sox, he’s lined up against Detroit on the 29th. But then his turn after that is against Boston.
Personally I would bring him back on 4 days against Cleveland on Friday, since he left early yesterday. Maybe a little tired arm will help the sinker. Then he’ll be on regular rest to face Oakland the following week. You flip him and Joba, so Joba gets the off day, and misses Boston. They want to keep his innings down so it works. The Wang faces Detroit on the 27th. So that will give him three tune up starts before he has to go and face LAA & Tampa in May. I would rather him miss the Sox this time around.
It’s fine to say that Wang should just be sent out there, but he’s just killing the pen. No one is saying to give up on him, but these problems should be worked on (since it didn’t work this team) in AAA or somewhere where the results won’t be as devastating. It’s one thing to pitch badly and get through 4 or 5 innings, but not even being able to get past the 2nd is just going to brutalize the pen (nevermind taking the team completely out of it). Wang is a very good pitcher who will be fine once he gets his mechanics/velocity/whatever straightened out, but even one more start like that is a start the Yankees can’t afford.
“But I would think about about DH Posada and sitting Matsui.”
Only problem with that is you run the risk of losing your DH if Molina were to get hurt.
“They should have taken a long man. Instead, one of our pitchers is going to get hurt like last year by mis-using them.”
you do know that the solution to this problem is one phone call away?
they can get a longman today.
HIT, HR, STRIKEOUTS
http://www.baseball-reference......9280.shtml
there we go.
Lindy McDaniel 1972
“Now nothing.
Funny how silence an be deafening sometimes”
agreed, Beckett’s performance was RIDICULOUS. we will see if he gets suspended. if he doesn’t, i will be shocked. not just for throwing the pitch, but for walking towards Abreu.
You know, even if only four of our five starters are pitching well, that’s still a pretty darn good thing.
Last season, only two of our five starters actually made it the entire season, and only one of them finished with a +.500 record.
Yeah, I want Wang to go back to pitching the was he used to, but with the Yankees scoring ~5 runs a game and the knowledge that any pitcher in the Yankee staff can be a ‘stopper’, I’m not exceptionally worried about it.
Tomko does suck but he can pitch 4 innings or until his blows out cuz no one cares
If a long-man was any good he would be a starter so of course he sucks
DH’ing Posada means catching Molina which does not improve your offense over DH’ing Matsui & catching Posada. And even with Matsui’s bad knees he probably still runs better than Molina.
“If a long-man was any good he would be a starter so of course he sucks”
agreed, my point was just that we shouldn’t be fooled into thinking he DOESN’T suck b/c of spring training.
that’s all.
Makes you miss Ramiro Mendoza, doesn’t it?
Curious
- You spend a lot of time copying and pasting other peoples posts huh?
I just don’t think it’s right to send Wang out there when he’s obviously lost in re: to his mechanics. I’m not so worried about the win/loss or the fans. It really is one game. But if he doesn’t fix it quickly, even the Indians will get to him. They’ve feasted off him twice in the postseason alone.
I know I’m repeating myself, but Wang hasn’t had enough to rehab after a 9 month layoff. He conditioned in the winter. Girardi only got his first real look at Wang at the beginning of camp. Wang was barely cleared to throw at the same time.
“– You spend a lot of time copying and pasting other peoples posts huh?”
i know, that IS pretty crazy for a discussion board.
“Wang’s release point is one foot less horizontal and around 6 inches higher vertically than it was last year when he was throwing well.”
cb-
i said above:
“wang believes, ” the issue was where he released the ball, which was off to the side instead of over the top.”
doesn’t this statement make you think wang is trying to get his arm slot higher ? is he doing this on his own ? is this being coached?
i think you have it nailed when you say his arm slot is totally different from when he had success. where did you get that arm slot info by the way?
the solution to me seems to let wang go back to his lower natural arm slot.
Steve B
April 14th, 2009 at 10:42 am
“But I would think about about DH Posada and sitting Matsui.”
Only problem with that is you run the risk of losing your DH if Molina were to get hurt.
In that case, Swish will go in and catch!!
Melancon will not be up until after May 15, to save an arbitration year. Yes, even the Yankees look to save money when possible.
If you are an older, unathletic team, what good does it do to call up an old, unathletic player like Angel Berroa? Just give Pena some time at third and when Arod is back, make him the utility infielder.
I sat right behind HP last night and you could see with his warmup pitches that Wang’s mechanics were a mess. Go heavy on the side session work and run him out there on Saturday. All you can do right now.
My guess is Steven Jackson and Clagget get the call today.
Before you guys bury another player (Coke) who you all had in the HOF last year, we have played ONE week of games.
Let’s not not get crazy after one week of games.
What the roster looks like on May 15 will be a whole lot different than it looks now.
“who was the LAST yankee to PITCH and have an homerun in an AMERICAN league game, NON Post season?”
The immortal Lindy McDaniel….I think.
I’ve never been a big believer in having a long man… not on a 12-man pitching staff but I am very concerned about Wang who no longer has a sinker, but his velocity is way down too.
I think Melky earned another start, didn’t he? Matsui looks totally spent but hopefully not.
Beckett should get a 2-game suspension as should the entire umpiring crew
I’m very interested to see how Burnett shows up after a game like last nights against the “defending AL East champs”..
“Before you guys bury another player (Coke) who you all had in the HOF last year, we have played ONE week of games.”
If he can be cannonized based on three week’s worth of games, surely he can be buried based on one.
Yeah we’ll have made an acquisition for a all star third baseman.
“Beckett should get a 2-game suspension as should the entire umpiring crew”
What good’s a 2 games suspension for a guy who only plays every 5th game? Still think the only guy who may draw a suspension out of that is going to be Hunter.
AJ stepped up after the last debacle, I think he does it again. As far as AL opponents, I’m interested to see if his mastery continues. How much info has he stored away?
And any reason why the Rays couldn’t get their rings and raise their banner on the same night? Other than to rub it in?
How many times has Molina started since AJ’s last start?
Beckett wasn’t even tossed from the game …what makes anyone think he will be suspended?
Hopefully a MUCH better game all around tonight ….
Go Yankees 2009 !!!!
“Beckett should get a 2-game suspension as should the entire umpiring crew”
Don’t hold your breath. MLB only hands down stiff penalities to Yankees. BOS gets a free pass.
“How many times has Molina started since AJ’s last start?”
Once. He started Joba’s start in KC on Sunday.
If a starter only goes 2 innings in his 2 starts, you need 2 longmen. One for the failed starter and one for the rest of the staff.
I’m a believer in fixing your starter, and not waste a spot on the roster for long relievers.
Small sample size but Andruw Jones is 5 for 8 with 2 doubles, a HR and 4 RBI.
Not a bad little start for someone who was declared done.
I have to say, I can’t believe we are at the point of Coke being optioned down.
What’s really unfair is that Angels got tossed while Sox didn’t.
The umpiring crew was beyond bad in their handling of the situation. First of all, they didn’t take into consideration that the Angels had an emotional week and were baited by Josh Beckett. Secondly, they’ve already released a statement saying the Angels got tossed because they were the aggressors. So Joshie was a pacifist? When his arm and his legs, and that potty mouth of his? Puhleez.
Has Molina become AJ’s personal catcher like he was for Moose?
Steve B,
Thanks. Trying to handicap who’s getting the start. I think it’ll be Molina.
“I have to say, I can’t believe we are at the point of Coke being optioned down.”
Why not? He’s been lousy and he has options. He’s no good to the Yankees the next couple of nights, having thrown 30+ pitches in last night’s debacle. It’s not a death sentence. He’d be back up fairly soon either way.
Yeah, even Coke wouldn’t argue that he deserves to stay up. Someone said his velocity was down? Not liking the spike in his velocity last season. 95 mph seemed to appear out of nowhere.
Coke has been inept, he looks like Sean Henn did in 07. Velocity isin’t anywhere near what it was last year.
Who else are you going to send down?
The Coke who was sitting 93-95 was a HOFer
The Coke this year, who is sitting 88-91 is not.
Remember, it was the velocity spike that turned him into a legit pitcher. Before that, he was a mere filler. We’re seeing that side now.
Tough matchup tonight. I could see it going either way.
That KC loss is looming large. Very possible we go home 4-5.
Swisher will probably be sent down since he can’t pitch for a few days anyway.
Does Mike Lamb at 3B and Jim Edmunds in CF look inviting if not only for the short term?
I know we can’t do that due to our 40 man roster but who wouldn’t rather have had those two in the line up for the first Month of the season.
Changed my mind.
They’re going to want Jorge to start Thursday at the stadium (4:05). Tomorrow’s a day game after a night game, so Jorge will probably start today, with Molina getting the call tomorrow. Bonus is that Molina worked well with Joba in his first start.
The lineup will probably look a lot like the opening day’s if Tex is back in the lineup. I’d DH Swish over Matsui, though. This is a must win situation.
No middle set up guy will ever be a “HOFer” that’s just nuts.
Two game suspensions for starters don’t mean a thing in part because MLB pays suspended players. That’s something ownership should want to get out of the CBA. Give him five games, then I don’t care. It’ll be interesting to see how MLB handles this since Yankees get suspended for looking like they were thinking about retaliating.
Perhaps Coke’s dropoff in velocity is because he prepared for the season as a reliever and didn’t throw enough to build up his arm strength as he did during the 2008 season. I say send him down and have him build up the arm like he did a year ago. Albaladejo should also go down if just to rest. Call up guys on the 40-man (Glagett, Melancon) and leave the old retread in Scranton.
I say give ramiro pena a shot at third tonight and see if we could finally get a hit out of that position
What is the problem again with Gardner. He has the same BA as Damon (although 2 less walks) and a better average than Jeter. One more hit and h would be batting like .280. Give the kid a chance. He is the least of the problems at this point.
Arod coming back will fix one major issue – Ransom.
Matsui better start hitting or he probably gets left out of the mix more and we see Nady and Swisher against left handers all the time.
randy l.
April 14th, 2009 at 11:00 am
“Wang’s release point is one foot less horizontal and around 6 inches higher vertically than it was last year when he was throwing well.”
cb-
i said above:
“wang believes, ” the issue was where he released the ball, which was off to the side instead of over the top.”
doesn’t this statement make you think wang is trying to get his arm slot higher ? is he doing this on his own ? is this being coached?
i think you have it nailed when you say his arm slot is totally different from when he had success. where did you get that arm slot info by the way?
the solution to me seems to let wang go back to his lower natural arm slot.
=====================================
Randy l,
If you go to River Ave Blues site, visit April 9 entry for a Wang breakdown after first start. I believe it begins on Page 5 and asks “read more” for more graphs on release points, sinker/FB velocity, etc.
I’d post the link, but it may not make it through the moderator.
Pettitte starts tomorrow
at 2-5, the red sox are off to their worst start since 1996 . tampa bay is one game ahead of the yankees. with arod out , the standings are good news.
if you take wang out of the equation, the yankees are doing fine. to put last night’s game in the rear view mirror, i found it great fun reading the boston papers today.
2-5, you gotta love it.
Pena’s already got a nickname. In the game where he had his first hit, Swish called him “El Niño”.
eLneneM360,
What are u talking about? Didn’t you see Ransom’s rbi hit last night with the score 10-2?
m
It’s still early where you are but tomorrows start is 4:05 and Thursdays is 1:05 and Andy pitches tomorrow, not Joba.
five iron,
Shaky defense is Gardner’s problem. All that Joe G. asked his they play good D in CF and do what they can on offense. If given a chance, I think Gardner can figure it out.
Nome,
Thanks for that. Must’ve fast-forwarded. Way too forward.
No dude. i had to change the channel after it was like 12 to something. it was too painful to watch man. That game seriously pop my bubble of having the best rotation in all of baseball it was Just ridiculously painful and besides ransom does look kinda lost at the plate. so hes like what 2 for his last 22 or 23 at bats?
pat,
Thanks for that. My problem is that I’m looking at the short calendar on yankees.com.
I couldn’t help but wondering last night:
If this blowout happened to the Cardinals, wouldn’t it be interesting to watch Rick Ankiel take the mound? I know LaRussa would never do it, but the guy does have slightly more pitching experience than most position players.
Don’t know if anyone has already posted it- but check out Bernie’s video of “Take me out to the Ballgame” — shot at the old Yankee stadium — on mlb.com. (I can’t figure out how to link it directly, but it is one of the headlines on the mlb page now).
M – I have been traveling quite a bit and have not seen many games. What has been the issue with Gardner on D, it is supposed to be a strong suit.
“if you take wang out of the equation, the yankees are doing fine. to put last night’s game in the rear view mirror, i found it great fun reading the boston papers today. 2-5, you gotta love it.”
And the news only gets better. Ortiz is supposedly a shell of his former self, with his bat speed nowhere near what it used to be. Lowell is not moving well. Nick Green is playing SS. Lester isn’t pitching well.
BOS is a mess. I couldn’t be happier.
Tonight is going to be a great match up between AJ and Matt garza. Get your popcorn ready. They both have fiesty attitudes on the mound and great stuff.
If Wang’s healthy and doesn’t know how to fix this on his own at this stage of his career then it’s a huge problem.
Last season this team got smashed by pitching performances like his past 2. The starter would give up the game early, the pen would get taxed, the hitters would be playing catch up from the start of the game and after enough of these performances the hitters stopped fighting their way back.
The difference this year is we have players like Tex, Swish, Gardner who really weren’t a part of the offense last year that started to lay down and not fight their way back in. I felt like the team lost heart last year when the pitching went so bad.
The other difference is CC, AJ, a healthy Andy and Joba. If Wang is the weak link it’s okay, but it’s not okay if he can’t give them at least 4 or 5 innings while trying to figure out how to pitch again.
With the kind of performance he had the past 2 times the bullpen will be a revolving door with Scranton and lack continuity.
Wang is a much better pitcher than that. Whatever it is, it’s got to get fixed.
If it doesn’t it’s an indictment of the player and his coaches and someone is going to have to answer for why a 19 game winner has lost his out pitch.
Haven’t been watching the games myself, but he had a rough time in Joba’s start with the relievers in the game. People say he’s out of position, but he’s really positioned by the coaches. But then they say he’s slow to break when it’s hit behind him and he runs back to the wall. Others say his routes are bad. A particulary bad throw to home plate, but Pete & others have said the ball was wet.
Gardner did have a nice sliding stop for a ball hit into the gap. He ran in the direction of the wall, slid in front of the ball, and saved an RBI on that play as the runner stopped at 3B. His legs made that play.
It really doesn’t matter which relievers the Yankees call up and send down. They’re all pretty much the same in terms of being mediocre. In that way they’re interchangeable, but not in a good way.
I wonder how Posada would’ve reacted to Lefty Gomez.
http://www.baseball-almanac.co.....lgom.shtml
Name one team that does not have a mediocre bullpen??
“BOS is a mess. I couldn’t be happier.”
Boston will be competitive, but Tampa Bay is the truly talented team. I think we need to worry a lot more about what’s due south than what’s northeast. Tampa Bay looks loaded . . . and Price isn’t even on the big-league team yet.
I say let Swisher pitch and hit for himself while DHing for Ransom who plays third.
A good guess is that Cody Ransom has fallen off Girardi’s radar and Ramiro Pena will get some chances.
Ransom may even be DFA’d when Alex returns and not be the utility infielder.
Early or not, Ransom is showing why he was a virtual career minor leaguer.
Coach — Oakland actually has a very deep, though unheralded bullpen.
My lineup for tonight.
DJ
DAMON
TEX
POSADA (DH)
CANO
SWISHER (RF)
CABRERA (CF)
MOLINA
PENA (3B) Only because I refuse to destroy cody’s confidence.
Watching the Sox slow start makes me even more mad. We could be putting them in a early hole for once and put pressure on them to come back from a large deficit and chase us.
Instead, we’re letting them off the hook and they’re not losing much ground despite playing as bad as they will all year most likely.
Glenn — I agree. There’s no reason for Ransom to stick once A-Rod comes back.
bodhisattva-
thanks for that link.
here’s the Pitch f/x:
http://riveraveblues.com/wp-co.....oints1.jpg
so wang is about a foot up and a foot in on his release point.
how could this possibly happen unless he’s being coached to do this.
river ave blues concludes he wang needs to lower his release point.
i may be mistaken , but it appears he being coached by eiland to raise his arm slot.
this is a case where my old school eyes are in sync with the new school PItch/FX
i hope somehow this info gets to the yankees.
it’s not just wins at stake for the yankees here. this is a young pitcher’s career who has not cashed in yet (though 4 million this year is nice ). 75 million is at stake for wang.
i would definitely say this is the biggest yankee problem right now.
getting wang back to normal is a test for eiland and the yankees. if eiland and the yankees can’t do it, it appears they will have ruined a star pitcher.
this is not what we’re looking for in a pitching coach.
i second you on that zooboy. hahaha
So why does my post get deleted because i feel wang could be the next Ankiel?
“So why does my post get deleted because i feel wang could be the next Ankiel?”
Lack of logic?
Here is the link
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.....id=4133845
“Tonight is going to be a great match up between AJ and Matt garza. Get your popcorn ready. They both have fiesty attitudes on the mound and great stuff.”
benny blanco-
aj’s stuff is way better than garza’s. garza is good , but not as good as aj when healthy.
The yankees need a long man (temporarily)for two reasons.
1) Joba’s inning limitations
2) Wang (0-2). The yankees can’t afford to take any chances if wang can barely give them 5 innings.
“Watching the Sox slow start makes me even more mad. We could be putting them in a early hole for once and put pressure on them to come back from a large deficit and chase us.”
While I agree that we should be winning games, the Sox were the team that was always playing catch-up before 2005. Having the Sox start hot and our Yankees burying themselves is the norm the past few years only.
“Boston will be competitive, but Tampa Bay is the truly talented team.”
Bad pitching always makes teams look better than they are. The way Wang pitched last night, the Nationals might have scored double digits on us too. Don’t get me wrong – I think that TB has a great team. They are young, talented, confident and playing with little to no pressure. But I still think that when we are fully loaded (i.e. A-Rod and Tex back, rotation pitching well), we are the better team.
Logic? What about stats..
Do you understand? 4.2 innings 15 RUNS 15 RUNS?? HELLO? 15 RUNS. 15 HITS IN 4.2 INNINGS. SIX WALKS 6 WALKS
From the baseball Almanac, Ankiels pitching stats when he just totally lost it..http://www.baseball-almanac.co.....=ankieri01
He loses it… and does 24 innings 25 hits 19 er’s.So let me put this perspective…
then 3 years later
10 hits 10 innings 6 ER and 1 walk.
Wang has been worse than Ankiel ever was after he lost it. How about dem apples?
http://i44.tinypic.com/2jecmdc.png
Wang’s average release points for his 1st 2 starts this season, 04/11/08, and 06/06/07.
The data for the 06/06/07 start is missing about 15-25 pitches out of 100 or so.
man AJ needs to go 7 after last night
“If it doesn’t it’s an indictment of the player and his coaches and someone is going to have to answer for why a 19 game winner has lost his out pitch.”
g. love-
perfectly said.
the Pitch/FX guys, the guy who taught wang the sinker , me, CB etc. all agree wang’s arm slot is up too high.
2 questions:
1-how could eiland not know this?
2- why would his natural arm slot go way higher since being a natural arm slot you would thing it would stay close to natural and not a foot off.
i could be wrong, but i can only conclude he’s being coached to raise his arm slot .
Give me Melancon. He’s got the best stuff and he can pitch the 8th inning and shut everybody up about putting Joba back into the bullpen.
Never mind the Sox … too many questions, too may parts are going to break for them. Tampa’s the main competition for the division title this year.
Am I the only one that believes molina should be catching AJ tonight?
“Wang has been worse than Ankiel ever was after he lost it. How about dem apples?”
I might just archive that comment, so i can re-post it when Wang is sitting on a sub 4 ERA in June.
I don’t think there is any doubt about Tampa Bay Rays being a good club. The thing is, while last night was a blow out, most of the damage was done off the starter. 10 runs, 9 charged to Wang. Take that out and it was 5 – 5.
Yes the total score was bad, but for the Rays to score only 5 off relief pitchers who didn’t really have much, when compared to the batting practice pitches Wang was throwing, doesn’t seem quite as bad.
The Rays will be in the hunt, but if our pitching comes through as it should for more games than not, and add in the offensive boost having Teixeira and hopefully a healthy and productive A Rod, I think that might give a bit of an edge to the Yankees.
As to Wang, he has been drubbed before. His mechanics are just not right and we need to remember that he was out for a long time. He deserves a chance to show if he can come around, and being that his side sessions went well, it may come sooner rather than later.
Out of curiosity I compared Wang’s start last night with his start on May 13, 2008 against Tampa at the Trop, when Wang went 7 innings in an eventual 2-1 loss. I used pitch f/x data from Brooksbaseball.net.
Last night, Wang threw mostly fastballs and sinkers, about evenly split between them, with a few changeups and and sliders mixed in. There was almost no variation in speed on the fastball (average speed 90.5 MPH, max speed 91.6 MPH) or on the sinker (avg speed 90.2, max 91.7) and interestingly essentially no difference in speed between the fastball and sinker.
The average break on his fastball last night was -7.66 inches horizontally and 7.55 inches vertically, and the average break on the sinker was -9.72 inches horizontally and 6.34 inches vertically. Essentially, there was no difference between his sinker and fastball yesterday, and these accounted for the vast majority of his pitches.
Looking at his successful game against Tampa last year, Wang through primarily fastballs (78), with some changeups (12) and a few sliders (6), sinkers (3) and splitters (2) mixed in.
The May 2008 fastball was devastating, with an avg. speed of 92.38 and a max speed of 95.1, with a horizontal break of of -11.77 inches and a vertical break of 5.58 inches. Compared to last night’s effort, you can see why Wang threw the fastball primarily in the 2008 game.
His changeup that night was about 8-9MPH slower than the fastball, while last night his changeup was about 10-11MPH slower, off a fastball which was 2-4 MPH slower in the first place.
Last night, Wang’s release point appeared to be about half a foot higher and about half a foot more to the right than in the 2008 game. (I think the foot difference each way stated above probably overstates the change.)
The horizontal virtualization (looking down at the path of the pitch from above) showed a much tighter grouping of his pitches for the initial 30-40 feet of the pitch path in the 2008 game than last night’s effort, which indicates to me that the Rays batters were probably able to distinguish Wang’s pitch types sooner as well.
Will:
Ankiel’s issues were centered around control. Beginning with the playoffs in 2000, when he inexplicably walked 11 and uncorked 9 wild pitches in 4 post season innings. He started the following season with 25 walks and 5 wild pitches in 24 innings. Aside from a few relief outings in 2004, he was done as a major league pitcher due to Steve Blass disease.
Wang isn’t doing that. He’s simply getting hit hard over two starts.
It’s a fixable mechanical thing for Wang. He’s been out since he was hurt, with pretty much only spring training to get back in tune. He’s struggling to get the feel for his mechanics now, but he’ll get it back. He hasn’t suddenly become a minor league pitcher like some posters are declaring.
pel-
so you have a link to any games in 2006 ?
but for the Rays to score only 5 off relief pitchers who didn’t really have much, when compared to the batting practice pitches Wang was throwing, doesn’t seem quite as bad.”
5 runs off relief pitchers is bad. The 7 runs that were actually scored off the relief pitchers last night is worse.
>so you have a link to any games in 2006 ?
Pitch F/X wasn’t around then, I don’t think.
AJ has absolutely no wiggle room tonight, which is unfortunate. He really has to give us 7 innings – which I’m confident that he can; he seems to channel his emotions properly, especially against division rivals. He also enjoys quieting the home crowd – and tonight they get their rings (didn’t know teams got rings for just winning the pennant), so they are going to be all hyped up.
As to Molina catching AJ, I’m not a fan of personal catchers. AJ, CC, whomever – they need to be able to work with Posada.
Colin Cowherd ripping the Yanks……but he doesn’t know baseball, his arguments are so general and based on one horrible game….pretty much telling us to mail it in, The Rays are clearly better……….what will he say tomorrow if AJ pitches 8 innings, giving up 1ER
What I saw from Wang last night (I could only stomach 4 or 5 at bats on the DVR):
decreased velocity from previous years
a sinker that ran a little, but didn’t sink
4-seamers that were way up out of the strike zone
and the only pitch he could throw for strikes, was the change-up which was crushed by Pena, and Burrell (if memory serves).
Obviously the arm slot issue needs to be resolved, and hopefully along with that will come the velocity. Because without the velocity, he’s more like Scott Erickson circa 2005, than he is CMW.
randy, why are you being coy?
Isn’t the real problem that Brian Cashman decided he wanted Neil Allen to coach David Price instead of Chien-ming Wang?
Grrrr, that crazy Cashman. Why does he hate us???
“The average break on his fastball last night was -7.66 inches horizontally and 7.55 inches vertically, and the average break on the sinker was -9.72 inches horizontally and 6.34 inches vertically. Essentially, there was no difference between his sinker and fastball yesterday, and these accounted for the vast majority of his pitches.”
wave you hat-
the FX stuff is fascinating, but the above doesn’t seem right. why would a fastball break down 7.55 inches. are you sure these were fastballs? how does pitch/fx decide what is a fastball and what is a sinker. not saying you’re wrong. i just don’t understand it.
WYH,
Nice analysis. The only thing I’d like to note is, I highly doubt Wang threw only 3 sinkers in a start. His fastball and sinker are so similar, my guess is whoever recorded those pitches had a hard time differentiating the two. He very rarely throws a straight 4-seam fastball. Almost all of his “fastballs” are 2-seamers aka sinkers.
The basis of what you talked about makes sense though. His mechanics were so far off last night. His velocity and movement were down as well, could that be because of the mechanics? He has had shoulder problems in the past, hopefully that isn’t the case this time.
I think they need to change the scoring rules. If a reliever gives up a homerun, those inherited runners should go to the pitcher that gave up the homerun. So in my book, Wang only gave up 5 ER in 1+ innings.
Last night Scott Kaz looked like he was experimenting with less velocity and better control and thus lower pitch count, and he confused the Yanks well into the late innings. Not one walk. Has he finally become a pitcher instead of a thrower? And he’s only 25 years old.
“Colin Cowherd ripping the Yanks……but he doesn’t know baseball,”
He tends to apply football logic to baseball, which simply doesn’t work.
Cowherd stinks… as do 99.9% of all sports talk radio shows. Save yourself the headache and listen to your ipod.
Could Wangs problem also be his velocity? I mean we know the sinker isnt sinking. But he was sitting at 90 all night. I would think if he was at his usual 94/95 there would be more misses. He is throwing batting practice right now. Could he just not be confident that his foot will hold up right now. Therefore not using his leggs to generate power?
I’m still confident in this team. The Rays looked great last night because they are a very good team, but also because the Yankees looked like garbage. Wang was awful, the pen was bad – just an overall terrible night. However, you can’t judge baseball teams on one game, good or bad. That said, the pen’s performance is somewhat concerning as it’s been completely inconsistent. We’ve been counting on it as a strength, so there’s a problem if it turns out not to be so. I realize we have reinforcements in AAA, but those guys are also unproven (Robertson, Melancon, etc…).
I disagree, Mel… but I do think the inherited runners scored stat is very underrated, and often hard to find.
Murphydog:
Not ready to go there yet on Kazmir. He needed 110+ pitches to get six innings in against Boston the other night. Last night’s was an impressive effort though.
Good question, SoS… hopefully the velocity will improve when his arm slot gets corrected – or just by getting a little more work. If he never regains that velocity (which I doubt), then I’d think he’s a back-end of the rotation guy. I doubt it will come to that anytime soon though.
Ankiel’s a completely different situation than Wang. Suddenly Ankiel was totally lost and so were his coaches. Wang is clearly struggling, but he’s not lost the same way as Ankiel was. Unless he hurts himself while sorting out his mechanics, Wang will win anywhere between 15-20 games this year.
He looks like a mess now but I believe he’s aware of his mechanics, and is working on getting the feel for it back. Even if you know what you’re doing wrong, and know how to fix it, as Wang appears to be, a significant part of coming back from a long layoff is just doing it enough so that it feels natural again.
That’s not what Ankiel was going through. Turns out the best thing for him was to move from the pitcher’s mound back to the warning track, and suddenly he’s able to throw strikes again. Anyone not seen his arm as an OF yet? Truly awesome.
randy-
No fastball is actually “straight”, thanks to physics,, there’s downward movement on them all and (I think) that’s what is being measured.
Patrick-
I agree the numbers for the sinker in the 2008 game seem low, but pitch f/x showed a clear difference that night between Wang’s fastball and his sinker (the sinker averaged about 2-3 MPH slower and on average broke another 3 inches in on a right handed batter.
Altogether, his fastball was slower, and very importantly the change in velocity among his fastballs and the horizontal movement on his fastball was down significantly last night.
“Could Wangs problem also be his velocity?”
Sure, but that, like location, may also be tied to his mechanics.
“I think they need to change the scoring rules. If a reliever gives up a homerun, those inherited runners should go to the pitcher that gave up the homerun. So in my book, Wang only gave up 5 ER in 1+ innings.”
At the very least we can dip our toe in this and have it if the reliever gives up a grand salami. They eat all 4 runs. Maybe that will motivate them to keep the ball down.
Anyone baffled last night on the 2 straight pitch outs Posada called when Wang was struggling to find the strike zone?
yeah Cowherd made the analogy that he can tell what you have in the first 5 minutes like American Idol or something like that…….that’s so far from the truth in baseball….hey Colin, this is not College Football
It very well could be just another aspect of baseball, everyone loses it in some way.
Chan ho park?
“randy, why are you being coy?”
nick in sf-
i could see how you could think that, but i’m only concerned about the problem of wang getting fixed.
i’m not mentioning names because i’ve probably already said more than i should. smart people like you can read between the lines and know what i’m saying without getting overly specific.
the interesting thing here is that the Pitch/FX guys are saying the same thing i was told by the guy who taught wang in the first place.
you would think eiland, being progressive, would be a P/FXguy .
with all the people on the blogosphere seeing the problem with wang’s release point perhaps this will get back to eiland and the yankees.
of course peter could simply ask eiland about what the Pitch/FX data is saying about wang’s release point and also if he is trying to raise wang’s release point?
“Anyone not seen his arm as an OF yet? Truly awesome.”
You want to see another gun in the OF? See if anyone tries running on Upton while the Yankees are in Tampa. He’s got an absolute cannon.
Wang = missed the strike zone by 6 inches to a foot.
Ankeil = was playing catch with the back stop.
Slightly different situation(catcher catching the pitch vs. the fense catching it).
wave your hat-
how does the FX machine decide what a pitch is? does it measure rotation in rpms or something like that. or is there a subjective viewer who says a pitch is a fastball or sinker?
randy, thank you for your reply and for making me feel like a jerk for teasing you. I don’t like rule changes before I’ve even had a cup of coffee.
I agree that getting Wang fixed (or helping Wang fix himself) is the most important thing. I already have a worried email from a Yankee fan buddy in Taiwan. I don’t know what to tell him!
Tough task for AJ tonight… don’t know how many runs we will get off Garza with our compromised lineup. We’re not facing Alfredo Simon like last week.
The pen is absolutely toast too.
randy-
That’s a good question and I think for now the answer is it’s subjective. So you point and Patrick’s earlier is a good one, I think.
I’m just getting into this pitch f/x stuff and don’t claim to be an expert, though.
“i may be mistaken , but it appears he being coached by eiland to raise his arm slot.
this is a case where my old school eyes are in sync with the new school PItch/FX”
randy,
First off you really have to start looking at pitch f/x – even an old school stick in the mud such as yourself.
If you remember – over a year ago I sent you a link with pitch f/x data and told you to take a look. It’s simply fascinating stuff.
And one of reason’s why is that it exists at the intersection of scouting and statistical analysis. The whole scouting vs. numbers debate really become artificial with pitch f/x because it is directly assessing the process of performance and not just the outcome of performance.
That said regarding Wang. I really, really don’t think Dave Eiland has anything to do with this.
Major league pitching coaches don’t reteach major league pitcher’s arm slots unless there is a disaster going on. They would never simply change the arm slot of a 19 game winner. That’s very far fetched.
I think the much more likely explanation is that Wang simply hasn’t pitched much due to the injury and he’s simply lost his arm slot.
Here’s part of what I was trying to say with fault tolerance yesterday (and glad you liked that angle…)
Part of fault tolerant design is the capacity for a system to essentially “self-correct.”
The issue with Wang is that he really has trouble doing this. He loses his mechanics and his arm slot and two things happen 1) he doesn’t make in game adjustments rapidly enough to get that arm slot back (we see this in those odd innings he has that come out of nowhere); 2) he doesn’t have a mix of pitches that allow him to have redundancy should his power sinker not work.
Randy – right now his release point is literally one whole foot less horizontal and half a foot higher vertically. He has to be able to sense this and know there is a big problem himself and be able to change that. Do you think CC or Roy Halladay wouldn’t sense something like that and have a game plan to change it.
Of course the pitching coach needs to be involved and active. I’m sure Eiland is. But Eiland is not teaching him a new arm slot. I’m sure he’s trying to fix it. But Wang has to be more self-correcting. He needs to have a better sense of what’s going on with his own mechanics. He needs to mix in his change more.
I think we’re really on the same page here but where we disagree a bit is on this. You feel that if Wang stick to what he has gotten him here he’ll be fine because other teams, even when they know what’s coming, can’t get lift off of him.
My concern is that Wang’s approach – what has made him so successful – is too brittle, to prone to disruption, that he isn’t good at reestablishing his own baseball equilibrium because he doesn’t self correct well enough. In addition I am concerned that against better teams (e.g. sox, rays) that they force him to come up in the zone and he needs a better mix of pitches.
Performance is ultimately up to the player. I think Wang is terrific and I’m not concerned about him at all. But he needs to be more in charge of fixing himself, more capable to doing it. I was willing to give him more of a pass on this when he was in year 1-3 of his career but now he should be maturing in ways which let him self-correct.
What’s good about the issue being his arm slot is that once he get’s it back – which he will – his ball will start to sink again.
This has happened to him before – though not to this extent. He’s corrected and he’ll do it again – it’s a matter of minimizing the damage while he’s regaining his mechanics.
Steve B
Not many OFs in the game have howitzers anything like Ankiel’s (distance on a rope plus accuracy) but Upton does happen to be one of them.
I wonder if Upton’s brother Justin (D-Backs) has an even better arm. I don’t know either way, but supposedly Justin’s got even more athletic talent than BJ.
Hope Swish can go if needed!
A quality start by A.J. with run support will be needed tonight and it assures Mo coming in to close.
Matsui may not get around on Garza’s fastballs so DH Swisher.
Tough break …… hothead.
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.....es_by_mlb/
When it comes to Phil Coke, remember that he was traded to the Pirates last season, before they decided they didn’t want him and took McCutchen instead. So Coke was never untouchable by any stretch of the imagination, and really just surprised them late last year.
my wish came true. its 3 switchers in a row tonite. tex -swish-jorge-DH in middle of order. pena @ 3rd. damon sits again, is he hurt? gardner leads off.
to the Gardner haters: there you go. Get off his @**