New Stadium a launching pad?
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- April
- 17
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There have been 34.5 innings played at the new Stadium and 17 home runs have been hit.
That’s far too small a sample size to draw any conclusions from. But that does seem like a lot. Is the wind howling through those open concourses? Is there some sort of wind tunnel toward right field? And this in cold weather, too.
The details:
April 3 vs. Cubs, exhibition game: 3 homers: Cano, Matsui, Ransom.
April 4 vs. Cubs, exhibition game: 5 homers: Soriano; Jeter, Teixeira (2), Duncan.
April 16 vs Indians: 3 homers: Sizemore, Martinez; Posada.
April 17 vs. Indians: 6 homers: DeRosa; Damon, Teixeira, Cabrera, Jeter, Cano.
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on Friday, April 17th, 2009 at 5:32 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
sure seems like a just about all of these home runs, minus a few of course, came from the Yankees. I’ll take an exclusive “Yankees Only” launching pad for my home field any day of the week!
am i correct in assuming that those arches in the great hall are open and not glassed in?
if so the way the stadium is oriented would have the prevailing winds ( coming from the west) blowing through the hall and then through the open concourses onto the field creating a jet stream towards the right field porch
Posada the ultimate team player leaves without talking to the media because Joe takes him out for defense in the ninth because he throws like a girl. First he throws Swish under the bus for having dome fun now leaves like a baby he needs to except that he is not what he once was!!
I was in right-field main sections for both Cub games and I didn’t notice it Friday night but that Saturday was ridiculously windy, so I would tend to discount those home runs. It would be pretty funny if Yankee Stadium became known as a hitter’s park, though. Maybe A-Rod will get to 800 faster this way and then we can cut him loose.
The ball seems to carry in right center real well.
Then again, once summer hit the past 10 years or so in the old stadium, the ball carried well in right center.
Either way, I’m enjoying this team so far. Much more of a team first mentality and they really grind. Even when things don’t go well. That was not something last years team did well.
They don’t win today’s game last year.
Are they a perfect team? Of course not.
Then again, no team is so, expecting perfection is not realistic.
If they can continue to hang in there until Arod gets back, the offense will improve.
I don’t think it will be a 900+ run offense. I do though think, because of the improved starting pitching, the offense will be good enough to win enough games to make the playoffs.
If you don’t make the playoffs, you don’t have a shot at the World Series. My whole focus on this team this year is making the playoffs. After that, its a crapshoot.
I was at yesterday’s game and I suspect those open concourses are a big reason for the noise reduction too. Even the times when people were making serious noise, it was no where close to the old stadium. We just lost a big part of the Yankee Stadium home field advantage.
also pete, as someone who used to live on riverside drive, those winds can come howling from the west a lot more in winter and early spring more than summer. hence the homers in april,. it’s a theory at any rate
By watching today’s game, I’d say that Teixeira’s, Cano’s and Jeter’s would have been out of the old YS. Damon was clearly aided by something, as was Derosa. I missed Cabrera’s, so someone else will have to judge it.
Just watching on TV but it sure seems like every hitter should target that scoreboard in RCF… the ball really seems to carry in that line in particular.
If that’s the case it should be advantage Yankees because Alex can really mash in that direction.. Tex too. Jeter and Jorge also have good power that way.
Plus a “hitter’s” park favors teams that has groundball or strikeout pitchers and the Yanks have a nice mix of the two.
i was shocked when de rosa’s flew out- he didnt he even seem to hit it that hard guys
Hopefully we can keep Big Papi in the yard when the Sawks come to town.
Melky’s was hit better than Jeter’s, but not as impressive as Tex… similar to Cano I guess.
Joba had a look of disbelief. Don’t know if he was shocked at the location of the pitch or the fact that the architects designed a “wind funnel”.
Wasn’t really too cold or windy today. And I was sitting in right.
Still it does seem odd.
The return of the Bombers?
How amazing has Jeter been?
The crowd was fine today. I was there and the noise levels were good.
How can anybody say they “lost” a HF advantage after two games? Geez, talking about jumping the gun.
The old stadium didn’t do much for their “home field advantage” the last 5-6 times they were in the post-season. They had a losing record at home in the post-season since 2004 and didn’t even make the playoffs last year.
If the team is good, the fans will roar. If they aren’t, no noise in the world can help losing baseball.
If crowd noise was the difference, the Cubs wouldn’t be entering another decade without winning a WS.
With maybe the exception of Damon’s ball all of the home-runs hit would have been out at the other stadium. It’s the same short porch as RYS.
Alex is gonna go nuts.
And so is our new DH – whoever that may be.
Matsui having fluid already is very distressing
Toronto must be laughing at all the prognostications:
EAST W L PCT GB HOME ROAD RS RA DIFF
Toronto 8 3 .727 – 3-1 5-2 77 48 +29
Baltimore 6 3 .667 1 4-2 2-1 56 69 -13
NY Yankees 6 5 .545 2 1-1 5-4 59 62 -3
Tampa Bay 4 6 .400 3.5 1-3 3-3 51 43 +8
Boston 3 6 .333 4 1-2 2-4 37 45 -8
We’ve given up 62 runs, but that includes two 10-run games and a 15 run game, accounting for 3 of the 5 losses.
We’re cheering for Baltimore tonight, right?
SJ44 for some nice comments..
I to really like this team. There issues(pen) san be solved. They have pen options all over the place..
The offense should be good, the added versatility of Gardner(mega speed) is a good thing. They have a bunch of switch hitters which ia lso like.
jorge, swisher, tex, pena(until he goes downs) 3 of those guys will play a ton and are switchies…
As for the crowd: day games are always more subdued, to my memory.
If the crowd is quiet on hot night in late May then maybe we have a problem
SJ44
April 17th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
The crowd was fine today. I was there and the noise levels were good.
How can anybody say they “lost” a HF advantage after two games? Geez, talking about jumping the gun.
The old stadium didn’t do much for their “home field advantage” the last 5-6 times they were in the post-season. They had a losing record at home in the post-season since 2004 and didn’t even make the playoffs last year.
If the team is good, the fans will roar. If they aren’t, no noise in the world can help losing baseball.
***If crowd noise was the difference, the Cubs wouldn’t be entering another decade without winning a WS***
————————————————————
Or another century.
I’m really concerned about Rivera, though. His WHIP is all the way up to .80. Something is definately wrong. That’s just unacceptable.
this can become the best yankee rotation since the glory years..
they have tremendous upside…..
the have depth in the minors waiting for an injury.. I still think Hughes will be a star….
not sure about the bronx, but it was about 75 today, here upstate.
“If that’s the case it should be advantage Yankees because Alex can really mash in that direction”
so maybe it’s not an accident after all…
Wow Mike wants to see Joba “bomb” in the rotation. Is he really a Yankee fan?
“New Stadium a launching pad?”
I’m on the fence in deciding whether to blame this on A-Rod or Global Warming. Any suggestions to help me decide?
Wow Mike wants to see Joba “bomb” in the rotation. Is he really a Yankee fan?
===============================
He said that? That diet coke drinking fool needs to shut up. He is so hell bent on having Jobber be the bridge to Mo.
fatcessa is not smart enough to understand that #1 starters are gold…
if Joba is just a pretty good starter then pitch him out of the pen in the playoffs. giving up on a 23 yr old pitcher with electric stuff is MORONIC..
to have this arguement endlessly just shows how friggin stupid fatcessa is…………
Yanks Hrs =13
Visitors HRs = 4
Launching Pad, or Yankees good hitting? I like to think the latter
“Wow Mike wants to see Joba “bomb” in the rotation. Is he really a Yankee fan?”
i’ve said this before, and i still believe it. Mike is paid to play the role of a Yankee fan. No way that guy actually likes the Yankees…
Hate to say it, but if Joba continues to be mediocre in the starting role and the bullpen continues to be awful Joba might have to go to the pen. It would make the team better on a daily basis it would push Bruney to the 7th and eliminate the over-use of Veras or Marte.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0990413/
New Baseball movie – my friend has seen it says its really good.
“Hate to say it, but if Joba continues to be mediocre in the starting role and the bullpen continues to be awful Joba might have to go to the pen.”
LOL
Of course I’d like to see Joba become Roger Clemens but so far he really seems to be laboring.
Carlin and Schein on Loudmouths are unbearable with their Joba to the pen stuff. Talking about how awful the pen has been and how awful Joba has been as a starter, ignoring that the bullpen was brilliant today. They want Hughes up asap.
There’ll be growing pains for Joba but he needs to be a starter.
Al some people don’t know the meaning of the word “if”
what people fail to realize is what happens if joba goes to the bullpen & they get one pitching injury?
we go from a 5 man rotation to a 3 man one.
you can’t count oh hughes or anybody else in our farm system until they prove themselves.
There is not balck and white – only shades of grey
Making the playoffs is all you can ask, SJ. This team doesn’t have to score 900 or 1000 runs – they just have to score enough. I would like them to avoid wasting so many opportunities with RISP, but there’s no question that this is simply a much better team than last year. If they make the playoffs, I will take my chances with their SP.
There is no black and white – only shades of grey
wow I suck at typing
Al from BK: who takes Joba’s place in the rotation? This guy?
http://tinyurl.com/cb5gfy
Joba laboring wasn’t unexpected-he is the 5th starter after all. He’s has 2 starts so far this year and he’s on a strict innings limit and pitch count. He’s had, what, 14 career starts? He’ll get there.
And the awful bullpen really looked bad today. 4-1/3 shutout innings and no walks. God, they’re horrible.
Nick did you see any of the “REAL FANS v FAKE FANS – FIST FIGHT” stuff from yesterday??
God it was funny
So everyone wants Hughes up who didn’t win one single game last year? And who still NEEDS a third pitch and needs to work on his command.
That makes alot of sense.
For me, Joba can pitch the 8th if we make the playoffs. CC, AJ, Wang and Pettitte with a pen of Joba, Melancon, Bruney and Mo is devastating in the playoffs. Gotta love our chances there.
Did Francesca really say that? If so, he’s not a Yankee fan – that’s just asinine.
I have a hard time understanding why Joba is held to a much higher standard than every other starter in the league and has to dominate in nearly every outing to justify his slot in the rotation.
Why is that?
Why does Joba have to pitch like Tom Seaver in his prime to justify the morons who obviously have no concept of the big picture?
I can assure those who keep trying to resurrect a dead issue that Cashman and the Yankee hierarchy are not going to change their minds.
Uncle Ellsworth: I scrolled through the threads after I got up to Tahoe last night. Very funny stuff. I guess no one showed up at 12:10 under the banner today?
Did someone take pictures from the “fake vs. real yankee fans fist fight” under the ONeil banner? I just hope no women and children got hurt.
Giuseppe Franco
That’s a brilliant point. The reason is because he was a dominant set-up guy in late 2007. If the Yankees hadn’t called him up, no one would even be thinking about that now.
I’m not dead set on Joba in the pen obviously. However Francessa brings up a good point that Bruney, Joba and Mo would really shorten games. Hughes will be ready to start at the big league level once he figures it all out against AAA hitters. Joba seemed to get more out of his pitches when he was coming in late in games. Just sayin’
Jets vs. Sharks rumble started out as ‘no weapons’ too.
Hughes isn’t ready yet. He needs to make up for lost time and continue to work on his game.
He doesn’t exactly have a good track record in durability over the last couple of years, either.
What happens if they move Joba back to the pen and Hughes either doesn’t do the job or injures himself again as he did in both 2007 and 2008?
Well, then you’re screwed because Joba cannot be moved again back to the rotation and now you’ve got a shaky Kennedy or Aceves as your fifth starter and the team has just sacrificed their biggest advantage over AL foes – their very strong rotation one through five.
That would be rather stupid.
Bring up Hughes & move Joba to the pen…he just dosen’t look confortable out there. Is he becoming a 5 inn pitcher with a very high pitch count that will tax the RP’s every time he pitches
two game line ….
10.2 inn
10 hits
8 er
6 bb
9 k’s
Francesa wants to see Joba at set up and Hughes at # 5.
Personally I’m not about denying Joba his opportunity to realize his full potential but what happens if Hughes can out-perform Joba as a starter and Joba thrives in the 8th?
Bruney in the 7th?
Watch out AL is what could possibly happen.
Guiseppe,
It’s because his rise was meteoric. He’s a real live cult figure.
On the flip side, I get irritated because everyone is trying to make like Joba’s “all that and a bag of chips” and everyone else (yes even his own teammates & others in the minors) are rubbish.
Joba has things to prove as well. He needs to prove that he can provide length. What he did today was not very different from what Hughes & Kennedy did last year. People wonder why those two didn’t have any wins last year? Well, can’t get a win, if you don’t go 5. People ask why Joba has so many no decisions? Maybe because he doesn’t go deep into games as well?
I like Joba, I really do. I just don’t like that he’s made out to be a superstar when he hasn’t earned it yet. He’s a good kid with really good stuff. Let’s see where it takes him, before we start labeling him.
clowns look at Joba’s stats as a starter. not his wins and losses but his stats…they are very very good and again he is 23 fatcessa and other knuckleheads.
yeah Joba for 160 innings or 80 …Is this hard to figure out???
A team needs to pitch about 1600 innnings a year…It would make sense for the guys with the best results to pitch the most innings, just an idea..I guess the jays should move halladay to be the 8th or 9th inning guy…………….
I tried to get into the game today, but my pillow case full of door knobs was confiscated.
Next time, it’s a sock full of quarters….
Nick in SF reads everything. He never misses a chance to take a jab at me.
Read your suicidal, armageddon post, Nick. Good one.
Its a Friday afternoon game. A lot of people have to work on Friday.
Of the people who were there, they roared when Jeter homered and really got loud when Mariano came into the game.
I think the crowd noise issue won’t be much of an issue.
Joel Sherman began this nonsense with his column and folks are just parroting him.
Yesterday? A lot of the wine and cheese crowd and it wasn’t a very exciting game.
Today? 180 degree difference.
Remember, this place holds about 10K less than the old ballpark.
Of the 40,000 or so who were there, I thought the crowd noise was pretty good for a Friday afternoon game on a school day.
I think the biggest issue in the new place is going to be the adjustments by the pitching staff. If there is a launching pad to right center, you are going to have to pitch a lot of LH hitters differently.
It will be interesting to see if that’s going to be a season long thing.
If I’m Arod though, now would be a good time to find my right center
“However Francessa brings up a good point that Bruney, Joba and Mo would really shorten games. ”
No – what francessa doesn’t understand is that it is the STARTING pitcher that shortens the game.
For example, the starting pitcher can shorten the game to zero innings pitched by the pen.
or the starting pitcher can shrink the game to himself and Mo. For example, that’s what AJ did in his start against Tampa.
Would the team have been better if AJ were pitching the 8th?
The underlying issue with Joba has less to do with his exact role and much more to do with the limited ability of Yankee fans to have the patience needed to watch a young pitcher develop.
Even an immensely talented pitcher like Joba can’t provide enough instant gratification unless he’s pitching in a reduced, simplistic role that is intentionally structured to hide a pitcher’s inherent weaknesses.
Joba’s laboring? He’s pitched 11 innings this season.
Let’s let him labor on.
If Hughes ends up better than Joba then we end up with two great young starters in the rotation for years. Is that bad?
“If I’m Arod though, now would be a good time to find my right center”
When all of this speculation began about the new stadium being a home run inducing park to right field one of the first things I thought about was – whether that’s true or not – it’s mere perception will likely help Alex.
When Alex just tries to hit the ball he’s tremendous. But when he gets too pull happy his swing get’s long and that’s when he struggles.
If he thinks the ball will carry to right – let him. He’ll be better off for it.
In my opinion he has looked mediocre as a starter with the exception of the game against Beckett. When he was in the pen he looked like a total stud, as a starter hes just looked solid.
Well…I think it depends. A good starter helps the team alot, but as we’ve seen it doesnt win games. The pen blew the Baltimore game and Joba’s first start vs KC. If Joba continuously pitches no more than 5 innings, thats a liability more than anything to me. If hes only able to go 5 innings in a majority of his starts, i’d rather him pitch setup and put someone like Hughes out there who is more than serviceable as a 5th starter.
“No – what francessa doesn’t understand is that it is the STARTING pitcher that shortens the game.”
CB, I agree with you. I’m going to play devils advocate though. It’s not quite that simple.
The Yankees decision is are they better with Hughes as #5, Joba in the 8th, Bruney in the 7th or Joba as #5, Bruney in the 8th and Veras (or some othr reliever) in the 7th.
Based on having Melancon, Robertson and other depth in the minors, Joba should stay in the rotation.
But it’s not just as simple as who is more valueable, you also have to look at how the team is built.
Joba finished the 07 season with a 0.38 era. He was great but the league didn’t know him well. No one touched his slider and rarely his FB. Throw in the fact he was in mid season form when he was called up and you have video game numbers.
Those who want him in the pen are likely looking at what he did in 07. Which over the course of a full season and when everyone has seen you already that is not a likely era that he’ll put up.
I bet Francesa has never heard of Melancon. And the only reason why he knows who Austin Jackson is because a fan told him about it.
The problem for Joba is that he made such a splash from the pen when he first came up. He is already a household name. for that matter, his name itself – Joba – draws attention. So he’s not allowed the anonymity that would be beneficial for a developing talent. People have their expectations.
To some extent, Phil Hughes had/will have this problem, as well.
I almost wish we were back in the days where people were clueless about prospects. Players showed up at spring training or were called up mid-season and no one had any pre-conceived notions about what to expect. Sure, there were always a few that had some advance notice, but nothing like there is today.
Plus, here in NY, the spotlight is awfully bright and the public very unforgiving in you don’t delivery as expected immediately.
I think Joba has done a great job so far, on the field and off. But I think he needs to take a step back from interviews, etc.
I think he’s going to be great. I think Hughes is going to be a great pitcher. Not tomorrow, though.
Opinions are like butts, they stink and everyone has one.
Yeah… a guy who didn’t record a win last year and gave up 2 HRs to AAA hitters and needs a 3rd pitch is better than Jobber
Just like the people who wanted Nady gone so Swisher could get a shot, be careful what you wish for….
Well excluding today Joba’s ERA as a starter is 2.65.
Joba “struggles” as a starter? Really.
Did he “struggle” in KC?
As Guiseppe said, since all this Joba talk started, he is held to a standard that no other pitcher in baseball is held to.
Not Holliday, CC, Beckett, or anybody else you mention.
Anything short of perfection and, “he’s not cut out to be a starter”. Its absolute lunacy and it isn’t going to stop.
Mainly because the biggest culprit in this is not the fans, its Francesa.
He bellows and his minions in the fan base parrot his every word.
Even when he is 100% wrong. As he is in this case.
Well, Hughes needs to prove he can give length in the majors before he can claim a spot IMO. But if he’s healthy, and if Girardi can resist the early hook, I think he can do it.
Andy’s not a lock for next season, so both Hughes & Joba may well end up in the rotation.
We can always find someone to cover the 8th. Having a rotation full of 1’s & 2’s, that’s much more difficult to do.
Joba can be a very good starter. He just needs to start his breaking ball a little higher…. too many of them are burying into the dirt and making them easy to lay off. Forcing his pitch count to go up quicker than we’d all like.
The bottom line is credible people like Francessa, Mitch Williams, Goose Gossage, Mussina etc. said he should be in the pen.
These are guys who have played the game and know how to evaluate pitching.
“But it’s not just as simple as who is more valueable, you also have to look at how the team is built.”
No because that doesn’t take into account issues of scarcity at all. It does not take into consideration the need for depth in the rotation. And of course it doesn’t take into consideration at all the future.
It also assumes that Hughes is ready to pitch now in the majors and won’t himself be on an innings limit.
Brian Bruney right now is able to dominate one inning at a time. There is no chance he could do that as a starter because he can only throw 2 pitches.
What any organization needs to do is to utilize it’s resources in an optimal manner. Joba’s optimal use is as a starter because he has dimensions of talent that guys like Bruney, Robertson and yes even Melancon don’t have.
I have to say – honestly – the Joba to the pen “issue” is amongst the most nonsensical baseball discussions I have ever heard.
I can understand the perverse incentives the NY media has to keep beating it to death because they have nothing of substance to say. But I am very surprised to see Yankee fans not let this issue go.
How is a 23 year old kid with a career ERA as a starter of 2.65 “mediocore” in that role?
Honestly, I wonder if folks actually watch games.
Phil Hughes is not yet ready to be a fulltime starter in the Yankee rotation. Joba has outpitched Hughes as a starter.
Hughes gave up 2 HR’s in 4 innings to AAA hitters in his first start. How in the world can anybody make the claim he belongs in the rotation now?
If he came up and bombed again, the first guy ripping the move would be Francesa.
Its become such an idiotic argument, folks even lose sight of how badly the logic is in making the argument.
Its the STARTERS, not relief pitchers, who shorten games.
If you have starters who consistently go 6-7+ innings, you have a GREAT bullpen because guys aren’t overworked.
Its really a simple concept. Its a shame folks can’t grasp it.
Joba has things to prove as well. He needs to prove that he can provide length. What he did today was not very different from what Hughes & Kennedy did last year. People wonder why those two didn’t have any wins last year? Well, can’t get a win, if you don’t go 5. People ask why Joba has so many no decisions? Maybe because he doesn’t go deep into games as well?
————
In Joba’s twelve major league starts without a predetermined pitch count, he has thrown at least 6.0 IP in nine of them and was one out away from a ninth time.
One out away from nine of twelve starts throwing 6.0 IP is pretty good at this point. Frankly, that’s all they want out of him this season because of his innings cap in the 150 IP range.
Why no curveballs from Joba? I was expecting him to drop one in, but he ended up walking the guy with yet another fastball.
Speaking of, the booth today was pretty good when they actually talked about baseball. They talked about how Joba has 3 good pitches, and when used effectively the batters really don’t know what he’s going to throw on any given pitch.
And why so many fastballs when it clearly wasn’t working. We’re not talking a couple of inches. He was way off.
“Joba can be a very good starter. He just needs to start.”
Fixed!
In Joba’s twelve major league starts without a predetermined pitch count, he has thrown at least 6.0 IP in nine of them and was one out away from a ninth time.
———
Oops, that supposed to be eight times in twelve starts and one out away from nine times in twelve starts.
Mike Francesa is “credible” and played the game”? Are you serious?
Ron Guidry, Roy Halliday, Mel Stottlemyre, Andy Pettitte and Roger Clemens also have “all played the game” and all of them believe Joba is a better fit in the rotation.
You still want to play this game?
Guiseppe,
Nice stats, but someone (DT) asked about no-decisions. The further you go into a game, the more likely a decision, no? Or he’s the victim of lack of run support.
I realize he was on an IP diet, so that factors in. But he didn’t make the decision difficult for Girardi today and on a few other occasions.
But when he’s off his IP diet, we needs to provide more length. He’s almost Moose-like out there.
What position did Francessa play? Centerfield? 2nd base?
And what he did today is exactly what Phil & Ian did last season. So if Joba gets the benefit of the doubt, then people need to lighten up on the other two.
2.65 ERA in 13 starts in the majors yea, Joba is really struggling.
Can we sign up for having the whole starting staff to struggle like that??
The insanity of this never ending idiotic debate is mind boggling…
relievers make about 33% or more less then what starters make and are 3 times easier to find, yea waste a Mona Lisa to exhibit in your outhouse in a farm in Iowa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Be real…
Mel,
The only pitch Joba threw consistently for strikes today was his breaking stuff. He can’t throw it all the time though.
He has to work off his fastball and he didn’t have his fastball command today. It happens.
However, I’m just amazed at how this kid is held to such a high starting standard.
When folks think a kid his age, with a career ERA under 2.70 is “medicore” in the role, as CB says, it really is one of the most idiotic baseball arguments I have ever heard.
“If Joba continuously pitches no more than 5 innings, thats a liability more than anything to me. If hes only able to go 5 innings in a majority of his starts, i’d rather him pitch setup and put someone like Hughes out there who is more than serviceable as a 5th starter.”
I agree a starter who can only go 5 innings is a liability more than a positive. If Joba doesn’t start managing his pitch counts he might be better as a pen juggernaut instead of a limited starter.
Guidry never said Joba should be a starter. Infact, when Mike asked him about that at the Mohegan Sun event, he said he thinks he is a better fit in the pen.
Halladay commented on Joba? Who asked him and why?
Clemens didn’t even see him as a starter and when has he made public comments since the Mitchell Report?
Making up things to prove your point isn’t the best idea.
SJ,
Thanks for that.
47 balls.
46 strikes.
Certainly not his best day.
Chamberlain’s problems with convincing the so-called experts and the whining fans who want things their way is that he is a prisoner of his own early success and that’s all they want to see.
Francesa needs to stand under the ONeil banner. Hopefully that crazy dude can get in a fist fight with him.
“And what he did today is exactly what Phil & Ian did last season.”
No he didn’t. What Phil and Ian did last year was to be bad over a considerable stretch of time. There was a pattern there.
The only pattern we’ve seen from Joba as a starter is that he’s terrific at it – as evidenced by his starting ERA.
If Phil or Ian threw one game like today’s that wouldn’t be any big deal at all.
They were consistently bad. That was the issue.
CB,
Like I said, I agree with you that it makes so much more sense for Joba to be a starter. The media is really beating this drum loudly though. They scream about it non-stop. When the bullpen blows up, Joba should be there. When Joba isn’t dynamic as a starter, he should be in the bullpen. And a lot of fans take their lead from that.
You’re exactly right that Joba to the pen doesn’t take into account Joba’s future or the importance of having depth in the rotation.
However you also state “What any organization needs to do is to utilize it’s resources in an optimal manner. Joba’s optimal use is as a starter because he has dimensions of talent that guys like Bruney, Robertson and yes even Melancon don’t have.”
Yes, that’s true. My point was simply that if the organization didn’t have Robertson, Melancon and other good bullpen arms, but instead a depth of starters, I could better see the argument for Joba in the pen.
Either way, long term Joba to the pen will hurt his future, I agree.
“What position did Francesa play”
None, he was a DH. He’s not athletic enough to be in the field.
No, this isn’t what Hughes and Kennedy did last year.
Hughes and Kennedy were getting lit up in their starts. Joba didn’t get lit up today. He walked too many people. It happens.
As far as the no decisions, no pitcher can control that.
AJ Burnett almost pitched a no hitter the other night and he almost had a no decision. That’s baseball.
Folks just lose any graps of logic in this Joba talk. Its as if every start is evaluated like its the World Series.
Folks, here is a simple fact that will save you all a lot of time and aggrevation. Joba Chamberlain is going to be in the starting rotation all season.
If the Yankees are fortunate enough to make the playoffs, he will probably go to the bullpen, as just about all fifth starters on playoff staffs do.
He’s not going to the bullpen before that time. If folks want to “wish for him to fail” to see him end up in the ‘pen, you are in for yet another disappointment.
Similar to those who decided today’s game was “over” in the fifth inning.
You are just going to have to live with such disappointments.
So the consensus is that CC and Joba both need to go to the bullpen because they haven’t gone deep into games yet as of April 17? Gotcha.
For all interested, I did pass by the banner but unfortunately it wasn’t near the 12:10 Lohudmania start time.
I guess “Joe Francisco” will just have to be one of those things we let go.
Kind of like Richie Sexson.
SJ,
It’s really amazing. The media think Nelson and Stanton wer more important to the Yankee championship teams than Cone, El Duque, Clemens, Pettitte, etc.
yankeejosh with some logic, nice.
One point I would bet every major league team has many more pen options then starters and therefore a guy like Joba must start until or unless he proves he is not very good at it.
The pen is easier to fill because you can suceed with 1 or 2 pitches.. Bruney pitching 5 innings!!!He throws heat and an occasional slider, Not happening….
Because of this reality starters are much more valuable and the market proves it…Mo makes $15 mill, no other reliever makes close to what he does, and BTW he is the best relief pitcher OF ALL TIME……………..He is Walter Johnson and Cy Young of relievers.. How much would those 2 make today? 30 mill a yr…. for a reason, starters win games….
“Nice stats, but someone (DT) asked about no-decisions. The further you go into a game, the more likely a decision, no? Or he’s the victim of lack of run support.”
mel – I went back and checked. In 2008, Joba started 12 games. He had 4 decisions and 8 no-decisions.
Counting this year – it’s 10 no-decision in 14 starts. That’s crazy.
The good news – In those 12 starts last year, Joba was 3-1, but the TEAM was 8-4. (and that’s what counts)
His ER’s in those 12 starts –
1,2,1,1,0,2,3,3,1,0,1,5. (last game was when he got hurt)
That’s excellent.
Joba has never gone into the 8th inning as a starter. The pitch count usually does him in. That to me, is his biggest problem. (control – too many 3-2 counts) He needs to get his PC down. That will hopefully come with experience.
Clemens and Halliday have both told Cashman that Joba should be a starter.
They don’t have to call press conferences for you to believe it.
You can line up people on both sides of the issue.
You know why Mike Mussina wanted Joba in the bullpen? To back up his starts. You think that’s in the interests of the team or Moose?
I’ll give you two other names who want Joba in the rotation. Sabathia and Burnett and they have taken the kid under their wings.
He has been a starting pitcher his entire life except for roughly 55 major league innings. There isn’t a relief pitcher in baseball who throws 3 plus pitches like Joba.
You don’t waste a guy with that kind of stuff in a setup role. You just don’t.
I don’t care how much the “media beats the drum”. They don’t fill out the lineup card and no matter how much they want to, they don’t dictate team policy.
You can believe whatever you want to believe. However, all of these “experts” who talk about Joba to the bullpen can’t give the name of a single relief pitcher, both setup and starter, who has 3 plus pitches.
Guys who do, like Joba, are starters. Its the way of the world in baseball.
First of all, I didn’t see DeRosa’s HR but all of the Yankees’ bombs were to right field. As we all know the old, and new, Yankee stadium has the short porch in right. Routine fly balls would sometimes sneak over the wall in the old park and that will not change in this one. Secondly, if these observations of a launching pad are increasing after today’s game, as others have pointed out the Yankees hit 5 homers today. Cleveland hit one. As long as that keeps up I don’t care how many home runs there are. I’m more concerned about the Yankees being unable to produce runs in any other fashion than the round tripper. Their average with RISP is freaking abysmal. If they keep relying on homers so much that will not bode well.
“My point was simply that if the organization didn’t have Robertson, Melancon and other good bullpen arms, but instead a depth of starters, I could better see the argument for Joba in the pen.”
YankeeJosh,
My point is this – Joba is caught in this endless array of “what ifs…” like no other player I can ever remember.
It’s amazing.
What if they didn’t have Mo? That would make a much better reason for aruguing that they should move Burnett to the pen, woudln’t it?
There’s no way around that. It would. So should they move AJ to the pen?
In fact don’t you think at some point in AJ’s career he played on some team with an awful closer?
How about when BJ Ryan got hurt? Should the Jays have moved him to the pen.
It is only Joba that these intricate hypothetical situations are played out on.
But the fact is that they do have Mo. They do have an absurd number of RH middle relievers with very live arms.
At what point does this kind of speculative reasoning become nonsensical?
If they didn’t have Posada, that would make a much better argument for moving Alex behind the plate.
CB & SJ,
I get your point. Phil was injured in the early part of the season, unless you want to give me inside info that it was a fabrication.
My point is people are to harsh with Phil. He looked good when he came back up. September call up notwithstanding.
well Joba pitched well against KC…LOL!!!! they have a team BA of .216
Its nice to see the fakes back on the blog. The 6:45 post is not mine.
Usually, folks like yourself are too busy fondling little children to play on the blog.
In some small way, I feel like I saved the life of a child today. Thanks for that.
DT,
Thanks for that. Usually when the 3 amigos did pitch well, the offense let them down. haha.
There is no question that to maximize his own talent, and to be the best Joba he can be, Joba needs to be in the rotation.
The question about what is best for the team this year is a little more ambiguous. The value of pitching depth and a fifth starter vs the upgrade of the pen. If the Yankees didn’t have the depth in Scranton with relievers I could maybe see the argument a bit more. But because they have depth, it’s a no-brainer to keep him in the rotation.
for sure Joba’s pitch count is his biggest problem
“My point is people are to harsh with Phil. ”
m,
I completely agree. In fact the criticism of Ian – Phil – and Joba is simply a spectrum of impatience.
Too many yankee fans and people in the media have no patience at all.
They want young power pitching but don’t want to give them time to develop.
That’s like wanting to be rich but not expecting to work for it.
I guess it happens sometimes but not real often…
CB great post.
newsflash Beckett is being moved to the 7th or 8th inning role for the sux. they figure they can fill out there roation with one of there young unproven guys since games are won late anyways..
newsflash the Rays are calling up David Price and turning him into a relief pitcher for his career. The Rays said he was so successful last year in the playoffs it is a no brainer. They also stated they want Price to dump one of his 3 plus pitches because it would be wasted as a releif pitcher and he only needs his + fastball and slider out of the pen.
WOW what a trend the minds of fatcessa and other experts have started…
Chamberlain, like Burnett and Sabathia have a lot of foul balls hit against him….moreso than Pettitte or Wang. That’s what jacks up the pitch counts because they have to try and get another pitch into the strike zone without damage being done.
CB
Good point. So I’ll ask this. In your opinion was it a mistake to ever move Joba to the pen? In the long run would it have been better for Joba if he never had that success in the pen in 2007 so that everyone could focus on him as a starter now and Joba to the bullpen wouldn’t be a thought in anyone’s mind?
Joba was moved to the pen in 2007 becuase without him the Yanks would not have made the playoffs. There pen stunk and he was a neccessity…
Mel,
Hughes didn’t pitch well last year. He didn’t. Even before he was hurt, he didn’t pitch as well as Joba has as a starter.
Its why I don’t understand the clamor to take Joba out of the rotation.
Its as if the discussion takes on a life of its own if the kid isn’t lights out in every start.
Nobody is clamoring to move CC to the ‘pen after his start yesterday.
but that high pitch count dosen’t do him any good, he needs to get it down to be a effective 7 inning SP
“In your opinion was it a mistake to ever move Joba to the pen?”
It’s impossible to predict insanity so I’ll say no.
Joba was close to his innings limit that year. They needed help in the pen.
It made sense – at that time.
No longer.
“but that high pitch count dosen’t do him any good, he needs to get it down to be a effective 7 inning SP”
True. But if this were the criteria for all pitchers to stay in the starting rotation then Scott Kazmir, Rich Harden and Matsuzaka should clearly be in the pen ASAP.
But one never hears that discussion.
It’s only joba who is held up to these kind of standards.
SJ,
I understand that. I’m not even equating the two. Phil’s had some good starts, and Joba’s had a couple of bad starts. Not saying that Phil should replace Joba at all. I’m in the “Joba should be starting” camp.
But when Phil is right, he’s good. I hope he makes it with the Yankees because he seems like a good kid.
Josh,
It wasn’t a mistake to move Joba to the ‘pen to help the team in 2007. Just as it isn’t a mistake to put him back there if they make the playoffs this year.
Overall though, he’s a starting pitcher and that’s going to be the best place for him, and the team, the rest of his career.
Joba debate will always be interesting one until he consistently posts 7 innings.
Either way they should look into signing Sheets now before he starts throwing and someone else in the east signs him. He would be a good investment for next year.
The most disturbing part of the stadium was the rather large swaths of empty seats. This was no sell out.
I was surprised at yesterdays announced attendance of 48,000 + but today I see the problem.
There was absolutely NO ONE sitting in sec’s 29 or 11 which are the last sec’s of the field legends sections. Totally empty. There were tons of of empty seats in the sec’s behind the visitor’s dugout.
In the old stadium you always looked to the last sec’s of the upper deck and to the left field bleachers to see if it was a sellout. Now you have to look at the field level seats.
The crowd was decent enough though especially for a day Fri day game which I can’t even remember the last one. There was certainly enough to cheer about. The sound system is not too hot. They need to turn up the volume. I always bitched about the old system with just the vertical speakers in CF but at least you could hear it.
I really hope they iron out the kinks but I’m not too optimistic.
Little sidebar to the Joba debate.
Masterson to start on Mon. I presume he’s replacing Dice-K
CB
April 17th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
“but that high pitch count dosen’t do him any good, he needs to get it down to be a effective 7 inning SP”
True. But if this were the criteria for all pitchers to stay in the starting rotation then Scott Kazmir, Rich Harden and Matsuzaka should clearly be in the pen ASAP.
But one never hears that discussion.
It’s only joba who is held up to these kind of standards.
————————————————————
In a similar vein, you never hear this discussion about leaving David Price in the bullpen, where he had those same Chamberlain type numbers.
“It’s impossible to predict insanity so I’ll say no.”
CB- LOL. But this is NY. Perhaps we should expect it.
I think the media now undervalues starters and overvalues relievers. Ironic because it used to be the other way around. And teams do need a good combination of both.
We’ve come to the same conclusion by different methods, and hopefully the Yankees don’t give in to the media pressure.
“Joba debate will always be interesting one until he consistently posts 7 innings.”
I said this after that 2007 season – the Joba “debate” will continue until he wins a Cy Young.
I literally think that’s what it will take.
Until he wins a Cy Young people will continue saying he should be in the pen.
Until he literally wins the Cy Young they will continually throw up additional end points for success that he still needs to attain before the grand tragedy of moving him from the pen is rectified.
mel – I went back and checked. In 2008, Joba started 12 games. He had 4 decisions and 8 no-decisions.
———–
Those first two games were technically starts but he wasn’t allowed to throw 90 + pitches until his third start against the Astros.
As far as I’m concerned, those first two games don’t count against his efficiency.
Mel,
Don’t get me wrong, I think Hughes has a chance to be a very good pitcher. By next year, if you have Hughes, Sabathia and Joba in the rotation, that’s 3 high quality arms ALL under 30 years old. That’s impressive stuff.
You will also have a guy like AJ who may be 31 but his arm is much younger due to the injuries he has had (not as many innings as a normal 31 year old).
I think that’s the goal of the Yankees.
I’m of the opinion that rushing Hughes again (like they did last year) would be a big mistake.
Let him get control of the 3 pitches he needs to throw for strikes in any count, as well as being able to answer the bell more over the course of a full season.
If they do that, he will develop to be a very solid pitcher.
Joba will never win the Cy Young. They don’t give them to relievers, and in the eyes of way too many voters that’s what they still see him as.
“you never hear this discussion about leaving David Price in the bullpen, where he had those same Chamberlain type numbers.”
Why would you? I mean Tampa’s pen is only much worse than the yankees and Sox and is going to be their biggest weakness.
Just because they never, ever would have made the series last year if Price hadn’t rescued their inept relief corp what difference would that make?
The price comparison really shows how crazy the national media is on this issue.
If David Price were a Yankee, the media would overhyping and would pidgeon-hole him, too.
CB
April 17th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
“you never hear this discussion about leaving David Price in the bullpen, where he had those same Chamberlain type numbers.”
Why would you? I mean Tampa’s pen is only much worse than the yankees and Sox and is going to be their biggest weakness.
Just because they never, ever would have made the series last year if Price hadn’t rescued their inept relief corp what difference would that make?
The price comparison really shows how crazy the national media is on this issue.
————————————————————
That’s what I’m saying. I’ll take a chance on getting 7+ innings of shutdown innings for the vast majority of the starts over 1 inning 3-4 times a week. Neither one belongs in the pen.
“It wasn’t a mistake to move Joba to the ‘pen to help the team in 2007. Just as it isn’t a mistake to put him back there if they make the playoffs this year.
Overall though, he’s a starting pitcher and that’s going to be the best place for him, and the team, the rest of his career.”
SJ, I guess I’m thinking about this as short-term vs. long-term. Long term it seems a no brainer that Joba is best suited to be a starter. He has 3+ pitches and is perfectly suited to be a an ace someday.
So the only debate is short term, are the Yankees better with him as a starter or 8th inning guy. Most of us say starting is more important. But when you have depth in the rotation, the argument is at least a bit more understandable, even if we still disagree. And even if someone concluded that it’s better in the short-term to have Joba as a reliver, I don’t think it’s worth retarding his development for just 2009.
But if Joba had never gone to the pen, there’d be no debate now and there’d be less pressure or debate about where Joba belongs and that’s why I raised the question.
I have actually heard a few rumblings from the media about keeping David Price in the pen, but they aren’t as loud as Joba to the pen. I believe Joe Magrane was making the argument on MLB Network’s Hot Stove show this winter. It was definitely one of MLB Network’s anchors, if not Magrane, Harold Reynolds.
I’m not saying the no-decisions are Joba’s fault – it’s the luck of the draw.
Some years, pitchers get run support – some years they don’t.
The thing with Joba to the pen – he’ll never have another year like 2007. That was insane.
24 innings – 1 earned run – only 6 walks.
That year almost reminded me of a young fighter who had never been KO’d. Joba rared back and fired – saying try to hit it – and they couldn’t.
Once he got touched a couple of times in 2008, he seemed to be more careful. Before he became a starter last year –
24 innings – 11 walks.
Is it true that Jorge left without talking to the media?
from twitter
NickSwisher heading to dinner with CC and a bus of his family! met michael jordn and tori spelling,,,,and we won! great day!
That great pick up that will launch the soxs into first gave up 7 runs to the O’s in 2 innings.
Guy and gals, the RF wall in NYS is 9-10 feet closer in portions of RCF than in RYS:
http://www.baseball-fever.com/.....ost1497481
I CAME ACROSS THIS BLOG BY ASKING….DOES THE NEW PARK FAVOR THE HOME RUN….DIDN’T GET AN ANSWER….WONDER HOW EVERYONE IS THINKING TODAY…RIGHT NOW IT STANDS AT 22-4 INDIANS