Andy and Mo: A productive team
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Apr 21, 2009 
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I don’t know why this stat intrigues me, but it does.
Andy Pettitte has won 56 games that Mariano Rivera got the save in. Since the save was invented in 1969, the record for a starter and a closer is 57 by Bob Welch and Dennis Eckersley of Oakland. The ever hard-working Elias Sports Bureau figured that out.
So Andy and Mo can tie the record tonight.
Yes, I know, wins are sort of meaningless and so are saves. But that stat does indicate quality over a long period of time. Or at least durability.
You know what would be interesting? A list of pitchers that Mo has the most saves for. I wonder who is after Andy? It’s got to be Moose or Clemens.
Hey, Elias, get on that.
UPDATE, 2:32 p.m.: Our man David Pinto has the 411:
Andy Pettitte 56
Mike Mussina 49
Roger Clemens 35
Orlando Hernandez 32
David Wells 25
Chien Ming-Wang 23
I think it is Moose, Yes Network had this stat for the last game Andy pitched and Mo saved
Sorry for the double post just wanted people to see this….
Wow there are deals all over the place on StubHub.
I just purchased 2 seats for tonight’s game in section 224 (main dugout) 8th row for $45/each.
That’s highway robbery. Those tickets are $150 each on the Yankees site. For anyone that wants to go tonight, you’ll be very pleasantly surprised at the prices.
So prices a dropping drastically for tonights game?
questionalble weather-not a great team. Get me under face value for a Game in June – I’ll be impressed
miggs that was not directed at you specifically
I also believe it is Moose they showed that stat the last time Andy pitched
Why does it seem like Andy and Mo have been one combined win/save away from tying Welch and Eckersley’s record for many months now? I know it can’t be because they haven’t gotten a combined win/save in this timespan, because they have. Probably some blogger (not Pete of course) jumped the gun on mentioning the stat and its been on my radar since then.
It will be nice to see them tie and then break it, though. It’s not gonna make a huge difference in either of their lives, but it’s an important reminder of just how long Andy has been an excellent pitcher. Same for Mo, but no one needs any reminders of his greatness!
miggs nice way of selling your tickets
Can we buy a Stadium beer at a deep discount on Stub Hub too?
Should be more. never shouldve gotten rid of Andy after 03.
Dr. Cox
April 21st, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Should be more. never shouldve gotten rid of Andy after 03.
AMEN!
Now I find myself wondering which non-Mariano starter/closer duo is next on the list of combined wins and saves after Mo/Andy and Mo/anyone else.
For active players, I would guess Santana and Nathan. Can’t think who it would be on the all-time list. Anyone care to take a gander? (Not that I know where to find the answer, but just for fun!)
I think Mo and Andy are heck of a duo! I see number 57 happening tonight, if anything it shows durability and longevity.
Wonder how many win/saves the duo of Whitey Ford and Luis Arroyo would have (if saves were counted back when).
Andy always was and always will be a Yankee. Letting him get away the way they did kind of wasn’t right on moral grounds but his elbow promptly blew up the next season, which suddenly made it look like a genius baseball decision. But it still didn’t feel right him not playing in NY.
But then there was Pavano/Wright coming in and being perpetually injured anyways. You almost expected it with Wright’s history of injuries, not so much Pavano, but Pavano turned into the poster boy of the DL.
But Andy ended up having some good stretches for Houston in the end. Regardless … everyone’s glad Andy’s back now. If he has a real good year this year, I’d be into seeing him come back for another year too.
Coulter Bean no doubt is on that list…..
“Yes, I know, wins are sort of meaningless and so are saves.”
Huh? What does this mean????????
Bob Welch never used Roids.
Ari that would be quite clever, but I really did buy.
Let’s build a win streak.
miggs it was a joke
It’s gotta be Moose. Clemens didn’t spend enough time in NY for that, especially with his “I’m retired. No I’m not.” routine. I wish Moose was still pitching this year.
I hope it is Moose and not Clemens
DJ Mitchell pitched another great game despite the score. 6 innings, 7 hits, 4 runs, 1 earned run, 1 walk (his first of the year), 8 strikeouts.
Savannah scored 3 unearned runs in the 5th inning. Mitchell gave up a single leading off. The next pitch was a taylor made DP around the horn, except Lassiter’s throw from third to second was ruled an error on Lassiter, but, I thought that adams crossed the bag before he caught the ball. He was definately in the wrong neighborhood. No outs recorded. Mitchell got a fly ball to short left field and then struck out the next batter for the second out. He then walked his first batter of the year before giving up a 3 run double into the left field corner. after that, Corey Arbiso came in and just ate up 5 batters with sliders and fastballs on the hands.
Pat Venditte came in with 2 outs in the bottom of the 8th. Pitching left handed, his first pitch was a well placed 83 MPH fastball. After that, it was 4 straight sharp breaking sliders for a strike out.
In the 9th, pitching right handed, first batter was 2 92 MPH fastballs and a grounder on a change-up. The second batter struck out on a 93 MPH fastball. He struck out the last batter on three straight fastballs, all at 91 MPH. The last two batters were right handed batters.
Another save this year (4th straight) to go with 23 straight last year.
That’s 5 games, 4 saves, 7.1 innings, 3 hits, 0 walks and 11 strikeouts.
Venditte’s name is pronounced (Ven-Ditty)
The offense was ok. Carmen angelini was 0-3 with a sac fly and a walk. No strikeouts or errors today. He did screw up on the bases when he doubled off on a bunt pop-up, though.
Honest Abe Almonte had another good day with a 2-4 with 2 runs scored and a double.
Melky Mesa had a good day going 1-3 with a sac fly and RBI single.
Catcher Chase Weems was 2-4 with an RBI and looking a lot better defensively and with the bat.
Lassister was 1-3 with an RBI.
The play of the game besides Almonte’s continued solid defense was a rocket throw by Taylor Grote from left field to nail the potential tying run at home in the bottom of the 6th to end the inning.
I’m still trying to find out why the game started at 10:35 this morning, unless it’s because Savannah has a long bus ride. Weather was still a bit cool and looked like rain, so I couldn’t update from Grayson Stadium here in Savannah.
Charleston won the game, 5-4.
Baseball Musings has the answer
http://baseballmusings.com/?p=32592
Maybe Tom Henke and Jimmy Key?
Will
April 21st, 2009 at 1:42 pm
“Yes, I know, wins are sort of meaningless and so are saves.”
Huh? What does this mean????????
——
This means that wins(for a pitcher) and saves(for a reliever) are not very good indicators of skill. Anyone can get a save, and it is, in fact easy to get. You just need to get the last 3 outs of the game(or less depending on the situation). Most relievers should be able to get 3 outs before giving up 1 or more runs. This is why ‘the closer’ is such a stupid concept and why teams that overpay for ‘closers’ not named Mariano Rivera are stupid. Many times the ‘save situation’ is not even the biggest point in the game. A smart manager would use his closer in the later innings depending on who was coming up or what was going on. Bases loaded in the 7th vs the heart of the order? You should probably use your closer. If he gets out of it your relievers should be able to handle 678 and 912. If you used a non closer he might blow it! And if he does manage to make it out, well your closer is facing 9-1-2, not exactly the fear inducing portion of the opponents batting order.
Wins are stupid because they are not based on how well a pitcher pitched, but on an arbitrary innings cut off followed by the score. A bad pitcher on a goodd team can rack up wins if his team scores a ton of runs each time out. You can win 10-9 every game and your ERA probably wouldnt be very good, and if you’re giving up 9 runs your secondary stats probably suck as well.
On the flipside a really good pitcher could be on a bad team and lose 20 games 1-0. Who would you rather want on your team? The 20 game winner with the 20 ERA that gives up 3 hits an inning? Or the 20 game loser that has a 1 ERA and gives up 1 solo HR each start. If you’re not Randy, you should be picking the 1 era guy.
ANSKY
April 21st, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Can we buy a Stadium beer at a deep discount on Stub Hub too?
————————————————————ANSKY, I want to thank you for the article that you emailed me the other night, about your father-in-law. It was a great piece on him. In response to your wondering how I might feel about him, all I can say was that he was a professional soldier doing the job he was asked to do. I never held annimosity towards the people, only the governments that started it and the rules they chose to administer. Thanks again.
Ok, so this suggestion is kinda shady, but I’ll throw it out there…
Why dont the Yankees use Stub-Hub to sell the empty legends seats at more reasonable prices. That way, the people who purchased at full price dont know about it? The sellers on Stub-Hub are anonymous, correct?
I feel dirty after suggesting that…but at least the seats wont be empty.
Gossage and Guidry, maybe too.
Well it makes sense – Mo’s first save ever was May 17,1996 – the pitcher?
Andy Pettitte of course.
Mo’s first recorded career blown save was August 1, 1995 – the pitcher?
Andy Pettitte of course.
This means that wins(for a pitcher) and saves(for a reliever) are not very good indicators of skill. Anyone can get a save, and it is, in fact easy to get.
————————————————————
I don’t think Manny Acta and Ken Macha would agree with you. Both teams have lost 4 games because the 8th inning and closer blew the games. Bobby Cox is happy. His closer has only blown three.
As far as wins not being important….how many starters are in the HOF with a hand full of wins? That’s as ridiculous as the clowns thar argue that RBIs and runs scored are meaningless in evaluating hitters. Try winning games without them. They certainly are of some value to the board members….you know…the ones that boo Rodriguez for not driving in enough of them.
Thanks for the link James. Wow, El Duque is up there too. btw, I think trading El Duque was the 2nd dumbest pitching decision the Yankees have made in recent years, second only to not bringing back Andy. Can you imagine in the 2005 playoffs if we had El Duque pitching game 5 of the ALDS for us instead of Moose for the 2nd time that series? Or how if we had retained him, we wouldn’t have signed one of Pavano and Jaret Wrong?
Woulda shoulda coulda, I guess. I miss The Moose and El Duque but it is nice that for the first time in what seems like awhile, that the 2 pitchers we brought in from outside this winter arent total dbags!
“Can you imagine in the 2005 playoffs if we had El Duque pitching game 5 of the ALDS for us instead of Moose for the 2nd time that series?”
Or even coming out of the bullpen instead of Aaron Small. And all the prospects that came back our way for El Duque were total busts.
BBB,
Provided that he was healthy enough to start the game. He killed both the Yankees (2004 playoffs) and the Mets (2006 playoffs). You just can’t count on the guy to make it to the postseason.
I don’t think Manny Acta and Ken Macha would agree with you. Both teams have lost 4 games because the 8th inning and closer blew the games. Bobby Cox is happy. His closer has only blown three.
As far as wins not being important….how many starters are in the HOF with a hand full of wins? That’s as ridiculous as the clowns thar argue that RBIs and runs scored are meaningless in evaluating hitters. Try winning games without them. They certainly are of some value to the board members….you know…the ones that boo Rodriguez for not driving in enough of them.
——
Just because they have guys named as their closer does not mean they are good. Some teams, like the Nats, dont have the talent there to succeed. For the most part relievers are a volatile commodity. Relievers success is so varied year to year. That is why guys like Mariano and Papelbon and K-Rod are the closers, because they have sustained success. Therefore, managers stick them in the closer role. A team without that kind of consistency in the bullpen should not be naming a closer, it should be reliever by commitee. And the managers that DO have that kind of guy should be using them in high leverage situations.
The save just isnt important, what makes the last 3 outs more important than any other set of outs? Other than being ‘the last 3′?
And yes, wins are just as meaningless FOR PITCHERS. Wins for a team are of course important. RBIs and Runs scored are also not really very important, but RUNS scored as a team are. If I’m a GM I dont acquire players because they are ’100 rbi guys’, that just means they hit in the middle of the lineup. I’d be looking at their athletic and baseball skill set.
A 100 RBI guy in a lineup of OBP monsters is going to be a 50 RBI guy in a lineup full of OBP wimps.
And don’t get started on the baseball writers association that votes on the HOF. Most of those guys are dumb as rocks.
If a pitcher pitches over 2000 career innings of 1 ERA and wins 0 games, trust me, He should be in the hall of fame.
Explain how runs are scored if batters don’t knock them in, because you aren’t going to average 6 runs a game on chance and errors. Are you saying that if a batter doesn’t knock in or score runs that it’s the team’s or manager’s fault? It is a team, after all. So, why boo players for not “coming through in the clutch”?
“As far as wins not being important….how many starters are in the HOF with a hand full of wins? That’s as ridiculous as the clowns thar argue that RBIs and runs scored are meaningless in evaluating hitters. Try winning games without them. They certainly are of some value to the board members….you know…the ones that boo Rodriguez for not driving in enough of them.”
From now on it should be the new way to heckle an opposing pitcher. “HA HA Beckett and Smoltz, you both had 20 win seasons, you suck”
I’m not saying the runs won’t be scored, I’m saying that quantifying them doesn’t necessarily indicate player skill. They are wholly dependent on your teammates being on base ahead of you, unless you hit HRs(i’m more than willing to concede RBIs/Runs to HR hitters).
So once again look at 2 different teams and 2 different players.
Andruw Jones vs Albert Pujols in 2005.
Jones had 128 RBIs and was 2nd in the MVP voting, many people thought that he should have been the MVP. He had over 200 chances with RISP and hit .200!! Pujols had 117 RBIs but had fewer chances and hit .329 with RISP.
A great player on a poor team may not have good stats that require teammates to accomplish. They should not be punished for that! Conversely, bad players may appear to be better than they are if their team is good. I think we’d all take Pujols over Andruw Jones.
Same thing with wins, a ‘win’ for a pitcher just means they went atleast 5 IP without giving up more runs than the opposing pitcher. If both pitchers are garbage someone is gonna win. Wins are even worse for relievers, so they happened to be pitching when the team took the lead, do they really deserve the win?
The win is so abitrary that it should not be the first, second, or even third stat looked at when determining if someone is good or not.
Lies, damned lies and statistics.
Right….for the first 120 years everybody was wrong until some jerk named Bill James hit on his scam to chisle his devoted followers out of $25 dollars a pop to keep coming up with useless “new stats” to determine value. You go ahead and follow Bill James Barnum. I’m not buying his crap. And, yes, I understand it…I just don’t accept it.
I bet you if you went back far enough there’d be similiar old farts decrying RBIs.
Thats a foolish position to take, and one of the reason why I can’t wait for all the old farts that argue for meaningless stats to move on to greener pastures.
Zach from PJ – did you go to high school there? I went to Ward Melville.
And as for the Stubhub suggestion, I don’t think an organization like that would ever do that (I hope). They should lower future prices and reimburse people who already bought them.
I mean saves first came about at the end of the 60′s right? That seems ‘too new’ for me, we should probably not acknowledge it.
“CY Young, you stupid 511 game winner, you suck”
That covert way of hoping the older fans die is pretty rough language. I hope the suckers who buy into every new snake oil type stat fad lose all their money and can’t afford the internet anymore.
Wow, biggest surprises for me were seeing El Doque and the Wanger. I always forget how big of a piece El Doque was. In terms of the Wanger, his substantial productivity in such a short time is very impressive. I cannot wait for him to get back on track (and neither can my fantasy team).
Rob, I was more thinking assisted living homes where they can listen to games on their transistor radios and not bug the people who are bringing baseball into the future.
Jerkface – I completely agree with basically everything you are saying, and how many times a W is sheer luck. However, over time luck evens out, and if you are throwing 1 ERA ball you will obviously rack up wins. Thus wins over a long period of time is a good indicator of pitcher quality – although I think we can all agree ERA is a better indicator.
Well, older pitchers pitched more complete games, so I think the wins ‘meant’ more years ago – they did give a good indication of what a pitcher could do.
With the “quality start” it does somewhat devalue the win as a reliable indicator of how good a pitcher is. These days you need to look at other stats to validate the “W” stat.
I think that’s fair to say.
And saves? Pretty much the same – you need to look at the larger picture. You have to look at ERA, inherited runners allowed to score, multiple inning appearances, longevity – and probably more things than I’ve listed. Saves alone, as a stat, doesn’t tell you everything.
Yep, I am as big a fan of OPS+ and ERA+as they come but wins and losses, runs batted in, runs scored, strikeouts, walks — no matter how far the game gets into the future that’s the bread and butter, the building blocks of the game.
How could people not understand this after last year? K-Rod wasn’t even a top closer based on every relevant stat. That does not include Saves, obviously, since that is not a relevant stat “for determining how good a pitcher is.” Saves might be good for the team winning games, but it says nothing about the pitcher.
I actually consider things like innings pitched, strike outs, hits, walks, etc to be the ‘building blocks of the game’
Wins and RBIs and Runs are interesting tidbits and afterthoughts used in casual conversation. ‘Oh hey, Cody Ransom had 3 RBIs yesterday, huh?’
Just like Andy and Mo’s combination hook up, its fun to know, thats about it. Good for them and what not.
Jerkface
April 21st, 2009 at 2:43 pm
I mean saves first came about at the end of the 60’s right? That seems ‘too new’ for me, we should probably not acknowledge it.
————————————————————
Without a doubt…you’ve picked the perfect SN for yourself.
Maybe sac flies shouldn’t count since they weren’y official until 1957…caught stealings until 1920…..batter’s strikeouts until 1915. If that’s the case, why get your panties in a wad when it happens or doesn’t happen. They’re meaningless, after all. You’re just the perfect sucker for Bill James. He must love you.
The basic stats are good – the more detailed stats should support the basic stats. And if all a person cares about is the basics, it truly doesn’t have an effect on the game’s enjoyability.
This is truly a matter of to each his own.
I think a part of why the more detailed statistics really took hold is to give players/management more supportive data in contract negotiations. That is where they are most useful, I think.
“CY Young, you stupid -511 game winner- 316 game loser, you suck”
Fixed.
Mariano Rivera has saved wins for 72 different pitchers:
56: Andy Pettite
49: Mike Mussina
35: Roger Clemens
32: Orlando Hernandez
25: David Wells
23: Ramiro Mendoza, Chien-Ming Wang
17: Mike Stanton
13: Randy Johnson
11: Jeff Nelson
10: Tom Gordon, Javier Vazquez
9: Kevin Brown
8: Dwight Gooden, Jaret Wright
7: Tanyon Sturtze
6: Scott Proctor, Paul Quantrill
5: Brian Bruney, Jose Contreras, Jason Grimsley, Hideki Irabu, Jon Lieber, Ted Lilly, Carl Pavano
4: Kyle Farnsworth, Aaron Small
3: Shawn Chacon, Joba Chamberlain, Sterling Hitchcock, Steve Karsay, Denny Neagle, Kenny Rogers, Luis Vizcaino, Allen Watson, Jeff Weaver
2: Willie Banks, Randy Choate, Tyler Clippard, Al Leiter, Mike Myers, Donovan Osborne, Sidney Ponson, Edwar Ramirez, Darrell Rasner, Jose Veras, Gabe White, Jay Witasick
1: Jason Anderson, TJ Beam, Armando Benitez, Brian Boehringer, Ryan Bradley, Brandon Claussen, Phil Coke, Dan Giese, Phil Hughes, Kei Igawa, Randy Keisler, Ian Kennedy, Graeme Lloyd, Esteban Loaiza, Damaso Marte, Dan Naulty, CJ Nitkowski, Ross Ohlendorf, Antonio Osuna, Bret Prinz, Ron Villone, Bob Wickman, Todd Williams
Amen GB 7 —
I’ve gotten into more than a few jousts on this site over the issue of the meaning of statistics. I firmly believe that RUNS is the most underappreciated stat in the game and that RBI is more important than OBP or OPS.
OBP and OPS are significant stats and are good for evaluating individual performances, but RUNS and RBI are stats that directly impact winning.
A guy who goes 4-for-4 with three singles, a double and a walk but doesn’t score or drive in a run ends up with an an OBP of 1.000, a SLG of 1.200 and an OPS of 2.200.
Another guy goes 1-for-5 with a three run HR. He has an OBP of .200 a SLG of .800 for an OPS of 1.000. The first guy has better stats, but the other guy did more to help his team WIN.
Runs and RBI reflect the successful result of OBP and OPS. They are critically important ways to quantify the value of a player’s individual accomplishments.
Randy Johnson is a good example of the wins debate. He won 17 games for the Yankees in 2006. Pretty good, right?
Problem is, he had an ERA of 5.0 that year. Luckily, we scored an average of 6.7 runs in games he started that year. Any pitcher can rack up 17 wins with 6-7 runs per game support.
Actually, anything to do with runs is probably pretty important in a game where the most runs scored wins the game. Being able to bat in runs is a good thing. Being able to score runs is a good thing. Not just an interesting tidbit. And when you have players with high numbers in those categories, it usually means your team is doing well.
The other stats are derived from the basic stats, but at its most basic, this game is about whether a team can score more than the other team, and preventing the other team from scoring more than yours.
Maybe sac flies shouldn’t count since they weren’y official until 1957…caught stealings until 1920…..batter’s strikeouts until 1915. If that’s the case, why get your panties in a wad when it happens or doesn’t happen. They’re meaningless, after all. You’re just the perfect sucker for Bill James. He must love you.
——
Sorry that I’m capable of separating my passion for the human element of the game from the logic and reason that comes from debating player ability based on stats. I think you may have understood, but just in case, I was mocking your derison of new age stats. By your criteria saves should be verboten!
I’m perfectly happy with all stats in the game of baseball, I just know when to use them properly.
Fact: for all his gaudy statistics, Cy Young never won the Cy Young award.
Wins, saves, RBIs and runs are bad indicators of a player’s value because they are all dependent on other members of the team. However, over the very long term they are somewhat valuable.
For example, the season when Roger Clemens won 18 games and won the cy young was a great season but Randy Johnson deserved the Cy young that year. The next year Clemens only won 13 games but pitched much better than in the previous year.
86w163 -
I agree with you.
The “newer” more detailed stats make for easier comparisons of players, but if they weren’t developed or followed, it wouldn’t impact the game itself at all.
SCX
April 21st, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Randy Johnson is a good example of the wins debate. He won 17 games for the Yankees in 2006. Pretty good, right?
Problem is, he had an ERA of 5.0 that year. Luckily, we scored an average of 6.7 runs in games he started that year. Any pitcher can rack up 17 wins with 6-7 runs per game support.
————————————————————
I’m pretty sure that more than a few Texas managers and fans would disagree with you.
86w183 – Good points, but put that 4-4 guy on a team with other high OBP guys, and his 4 hits suddenly knock in 6 runs, which is better than the other guy’s 3-run HR. Not his fault a couple of bums were in the order ahead of him. It also probably wears down the opposing starter more, keeps rallies going with men on base, maybe he can steal, causes defensive shifts, applies sustained pressure, etc etc etc.
Well, 86w183 – it’s actually you I agree with.
Every stat is based on what someone else in the lineup does….pitching, offense or defense. Why keep score ousing these meaningless stats.
Doreen: Runs and RBIs cannot be looked at individuality, context is incredibly important. What does having 100 runs tell me about a player? That he was on base at least 100 times and his teammates hit him in. It doesnt tell me if he got on base 100 times out of 1000 chances(poorly) or if he was fast, or slow, or if he was brought in by HRs. Thats my problem with Runs. It is SO an afterthought. You can’t give me a list of runs/rbis and tell me to pick out the ‘best’ baseball players. Runs and RBIs are on a lower tier when it comes to evaluation.
86w guy:
A guy who goes 4-for-4 with three singles, a double and a walk but doesn’t score or drive in a run ends up with an an OBP of 1.000, a SLG of 1.200 and an OPS of 2.200.
Another guy goes 1-for-5 with a three run HR. He has an OBP of .200 a SLG of .800 for an OPS of 1.000. The first guy has better stats, but the other guy did more to help his team WIN.
——–
This is absolutely ridiculous. The object of baseball is to not make outs(a team with an OBP of 1.000 is unstoppable). The first player is far more valuable if that is his average performance. The fact that he was on base 5 times in 1 game and did not score a run or get an RBI is an indictment on his teammates ability than his own.
The second player at worst would have 1 RBI, and at best would have 4. The other 4 ABs where he made outs may have been far more detrimental to his team. The first player at best could have had 10 RBIs, and at worst may have had 5 RBIs if his teammates were on base ahead of him!
Individual game performances shouldn’t really be looked at in this kind of argument though. I certainly don’t go ‘oh a-rod had a nice game today with a game vorp of 5!’.
Why keep score ***using*** these meaningless stats
Have people gone back and used the newer stats on HOF players who played before the more detailed stats became prevalent?
I’d be curious to know how their basic stats of ERA, W/L, RBI, HRs & BA held up.
Not being sarcastic here. Truly curious.
Based on the newer stats, is there anyone in the HOF who shouldn’t be, or conversely, are there players not in the HOF who might be had more data been available?
Doreen: I’m fairly certain places like baseball prospectus have gone back and as long as they had the proper base stats recorded, created the newer stats.
I know that players from olden times have stats like OPS+, WARP/1-2-3, etc.
They basically confirm what we already know. Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth were absolute badasses.
greenberet, you are arguing something different than everyone else. Just because you don’t like and don’t know how to use the majority of stats in the game, doesn’t make them any less important or correct. It actually displays your inability to comprehensively grasp the total game. Nobody is debating the idea of wins being important. It’s just not important in the context of determining a pitcher’s worth. Same with RBI’s. Why should your worth be determined by who does and does not get on base in front of you? RBI’s aren’t meaningless in the context of the game, they are meaningless when used as the primary stat for determining a good hitter. That doesn’t mean good hitters don’t have RBI’s or good pitchers don’t have wins. But if you can’t understand the difference, you probably should switch sports.
And why do errors get such a prominent place on the scoreboard? Did you ever wonder about that?
When we say that runs and RBI don’t matter we are talking about measuring a player’s value or how good a player is. What is the purpose of doing this? To decide which player should win an award, to try and predict how a player will perform in the future, to simply know if player A is better than player B. To accomplish all of these purposes we need to zero in on exactly what a player contributed to the team, not what the team helped him do.
In 2007 Tim Wakefield went 17-12. Johan Santana went 15-13. Was Tim Wakefield the more valuable player that year? Wakefield also had a 4.76 era, threw 189 innings and had a WHIP of 1.349. Santana had a 3.33 era, 219 innings, and a 1.073 WHIP.
In this case Wakefield won more games because his team’s offense and bullpen were probably a lot better than Santana’s.
Some of you (greenberet) are arguing something different than everyone else. Just because you don’t like and don’t know how to use the majority of stats in the game, doesn’t make them any less important or correct. It actually displays your inability to comprehensively grasp the total game. Nobody is debating the idea of wins being important. It’s just not important in the context of determining a pitcher’s worth. Same with RBI’s. Why should your worth be determined by who does and does not get on base in front of you? RBI’s aren’t meaningless in the context of the game, they are meaningless when used as the primary stat for determining a good hitter. That doesn’t mean good hitters don’t have RBI’s or good pitchers don’t have wins. But if you can’t understand the difference, you probably should switch sports.
Patrick, that is actually my real name, thank you for helping make my point.
Jerkface (I don’t like typing that name, because I’m not calling you that –
)
They can be looked at in isolation. It’s matter of preference and how deeply a person wants to evaluate a player’s performance. No doubt all the “newer stats” (for lack of better terminology) are very enlightening. And for all we know, there were probably people even back in the 40′s, 50′s and 60′s who were playing around with those kinds of statistics unofficially. I think they’re interesting, but they don’t necessarily enhance my enjoyment of the game. They are useful, but I can still understand the game without knowing them. That’s my point. I’m not saying they should not be kept.
Also, in my prior post I pointed out that the way the game is played is different – pitchers used to complete their games, so a win was a better indication then that it is today of how good a pitcher was. I said, today, you do need to look at wins in a larger picture – because I think simply being able to go 5 innings keeping your team ahead, while technically a quality start, does not necessarily tell me the pitcher did a good job that day – and more than likely he did not, even if he ended up with the win. And saves also need to be looked at in a broader light. Wins and Saves are not worthless stats, but they aren’t necessarily stand-alone stats.
Jerkface -
Thanks for the answer to my old player/new stats question.
Doreen:
I feel you on that. Although I still contend that the save is technically worthless. If I were creating ‘the save’, I’d probably have much stricter rules on how to award it. I like the winning or tying run on deck deals and what not.
K-rod pointing to the sky and being awarded a save for dominating the 7 8 9 hitters of the mariners in a 3 run game is not a save of anything.
“Zach from PJ – did you go to high school there? I went to Ward Melville.
And as for the Stubhub suggestion, I don’t think an organization like that would ever do that (I hope). They should lower future prices and reimburse people who already bought them.”
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E,
No, didn’t go to Port Jeff HS…went to St. Anthony’s in Huntington. I used to know a couple of kids from Ward Melville HS. Good lacrosse team…actually good everything.
As far as the Yankees reimbursing anyone…? I just dont see it happening…at the same time, they cannot allow those seats to remain empty for the whole season. Its embarrasing. I’m sure Randy Levine thinks otherwise. Oh well.
Jerkface -
I agree that the save should be harder to get. And I think it should be award to the pitcher who actually “saved” the game, not necessarily the guy who got the last 3 outs.
Doreen,
I don’t think the statistics were invented to increase enjoyment of the game (although many do draw some satisfaction from crunching numbers). The new stats were invented to better understand which players are the best.
I think this,
“Also, in my prior post I pointed out that the way the game is played is different – pitchers used to complete their games, so a win was a better indication then that it is today of how good a pitcher was.”
is a great point.
Jerkface, I agree with everything you are saying. The save is truly the most worthless stat. K-rod broke the single season save record but he wasn’t even one of the top 4 closers in the AL. Rivera, Soria, Papelbon and Nathan all had better years.
Patrick -
Fair point. But who needs the information? Management, certainly. Players/Agents, certainly. For fans, I think the discussions can be much more nuanced with the detailed stats and, of course, there is fantasy baseball!
I actually likes stats like OBP and OPS… although “win shares” might be the stupidest thing they’ve ever come up with… but the goal of the game is not to “not make outs” it’s to SCORE MORE RUNS
I think we can agree that a high OBP and/or OPS is a very good and desirable thing, but those things offer no context for when a player got hits or got on base. Runs and RBI, while team dependent also give context to individual performances.
Think about the Alex RISP issue last year. A guy hitting .300 overall but .200 with RISP is less effective than a guy hitting .275 but .400 with RISP. A guy who produces with RISP is reflected by RBI and that puts his OPS in context.
Similarly Rickey Henderson and Jason Giambi might both have an OBP of .450, but Rickey is likely to score far more runs because he steals bases, takes extras bases and so on. Thus RUNS is OBP placed in context.
The new stats are great measures of what individual players do, but the tried and true stats — RBI and RUNS — put those new numbers in their relevant context.
Class dismissed
what about wins/saves for a reliever and closer ?
bruney/mo have 2 on this season alone.
1 in 2008 and 2 in 2007. 5 total.
who else should I look up?
-To those arguing about stats and are advocating runs because they show what a player actually contributed
Look at the stat WPA on Fangraphs. That actually tracks how much a player contributed, or took away from, a win. It considers a grand slam home run in the 9th inning 2 outs when your team is down by 3 runs as far more valuable than a grand slam when your team is up by 12.