On the Melkman and The Little G
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Apr 23, 2009 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Melky Cabrera belted two home runs yesterday, one to win the game. Good for him.
But that doesn’t mean he should be the center fielder. The Yankees benched the Melkman last season and then shipped him to the minors. He needs to show consistency. So does Brett Gardner.
It’s amusing that people take nine percent of the season and decide a player is no good. Or that somebody else is good. Baseball is a movie, not a series of snapshots. Young players need time to develop and figure out what they can — and can’t — do at this level.
For all his good intentions, Joe Girardi has no choice but to tinker with his lineup. With Xavier Nady out and Hideki Matsui seemingly day-to-day for the rest of his career, the Yankees need both Melky and Brett. Girardi doesn’t need to pick a center fielder. He needs to figure out a lineup to win that day.
I kid around about Gardner a just to have some fun on the blog. But I do think his ceiling is higher than Melky’s, if he can figure out how to raise his OBP just to the league average.
It’s April 23. Lots will change in the months to come. If the Yankees don’t have an acceptable CF on the roster now, Brian Cashman can go get somebody like Mike Cameron.
Show some patience and wait and see what the next scene is, not the next snapshot.
But seriously everyone stop. Brett Gardner cant hit. He is not good enough to be a major league starter. At least Melky has some power. In April…
Show patience? Read the game threads Pete! lol
Patience ain’t a virtue for many in the game threads.
I completely agree with your analysis.
Also, let’s not minimize the kick in the butt Melky got and that may be driving him right now. I say, “good for him and good for the Yankees”.
Robbie Cano was really worried about being traded in the off-season and he worked his butt off to find his game again. He’s taken it into the season and has been great thus far.
I think Melky got too comfortable and needed to be brought down a few notches. If you are a Yankee fan, you have a good situation.
Two guys fighting for PT and bringing out the best in each other’s games. That can only help the team.
I think Melky’s niche, regardless of what happens to Gardner, is as a 4th OF. He can help the team in that role because you don’t overexpose him.
The trick is finding that balance and not overexposing.
Challenging? Yes. But, definitely doable.
Bernie has often said that if he came up today, he never would’ve lasted long enough to develop.
I’m NOT saying that Gardner will even approach Bernie’s career, but you have to give these guys time.
Yes. People, calm yourselves. I completely agree.
Melky also K’d three times yesterday. BG gives you so many options IF he can get on base. I hope one of them steps up and takes the everyday roll (mostly BG).
Melky had power last April too and fell off the map after that and was one of the five worst offensive players in the AL for the rest of the season.
Don’t let one day cloud your judgment.
No Mike Cameron. We need to get younger, not older. I think the Melky/Gardner day to day CF will work. I will be tickled pink if both reach close to their potential. Hopefully Gardner gets on base more, and stops popping everything up. Hopefully melky stays consistent. Hopefully Nady comes back, and doesnt have to split DH with Matsui the rest of the year. Hopefully A-Rod comes and takes advantage of our new hitter friendly stadium.
Even with the pitching as it has been so far, i feel a real confidence in this team.
Pete- I agree with everything. Since matsui’s knees are day-to-day, does that mean we can judge his play day-to-day? Cause his last few “snap shots” have been pretty solid
great post Pete, Yankee fans always overreact to everything. I agree Gardner has a higher ceiling but I do think that it might be wise to play Melky a couple of games, go with the hot hand.
Too cute:
“Cabrera’s winner was a laser off the bat, and he raised his arms as he started his victory trot. He hopped onto the plate 4 hours 57 minutes after the game’s first pitch, ending the Yankees’ longest game by time since 2002.
In the clubhouse, a toy wrestling belt with a plastic gold champion’s buckle was draped across Cabrera’s equipment bag. It was a gift from Johnny Damon, who had gotten it from his wrestling buddies — A. J. Burnett’s sons.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04.....ref=sports
Brett Gardner’s career minor league slugging % is .385. He got on base alot in the minors but isnt doing it here. We all know he’s just keeping centerfield warm for austin jackson but I think the yankees would have been better off signing a veteran like jim edmonds to play center until jackson comes up.
I think that every time that the little G hits a ball in the air… he should drop and give us pushups at the plate like Willy Mays Hayes…
Calm Down — Melk hit the game winner and lets enjoy the momentum going into Boston
Melk also swung at a 1-2 pitch that was about two feet above the strike zone with bases loaded and no one out in the 7th (Yikes)
BG is gonna be a very good player… lets not make any roster moves after 15 games….
“I kid around about Gardner a just to have some fun on the blog. But I do think his ceiling is higher than Melky’s, if he can figure out how to raise his OBP just to the league average.”
That’s a Paul Bunyan’s sized if. Nobody is going to be walking Brett Gardner when the worst he can do is hit a single, and from the time he’s been in the majors including last year it surely doesn’t look like he can hit major league pitching to get his OBP up.
“BG is gonna be a very good player”
You’re dreaming.
I am patient.
I also try to do my duty to God and my country, to help other people every day, and to obey the Girl Scout rules.
Much of the time I am successful!
OH btw did anyone see Steve Phillips piece on CC Sabathia last night??
if you didnt it was horrendous… he basically, he railed on Sabathia for looking frustrated after a few bad pitches in April
Isn’t Steve Phillips the guy who traded Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano? I think yes
Why is he telling anyone about anything about baseball
Can we seriously analyze how gardner cant hit at the major league level let alone get on base? And did anyone else think pinch hitting him for anyone even cody ransom would be ridiculous?
‘Show some patience’. You’re asking an awful lot Pete. Majority of Yankee fans don’t know the meaning of that word. I agree with you that Gardner will be the better player in the long run. I do think that against some tough lefties like Lester tommorrow night that Brett should sit, but I still think they are better off with Gardner in CF than Melky. Mleky hitting those 2 homers yesterday was great, but you have to now worry that he tries to become a home run hitter now, instead of hitting the ball where its pitched, which what happened last year and did him in.
‘Show some patience’. You’re asking an awful lot Pete. Majority of Yankee fans don’t know the meaning of that word. I agree with you that Gardner will be the better player in the long run. I do think that against some tough lefties like Lester tommorrow night that Brett should sit, but I still think they are better off with Gardner in CF than Melky. Mleky hitting those 2 homers yesterday was great, but you have to now worry that he tries to become a home run hitter now, instead of hitting the ball where its pitched, which what happened last year and did him in.
“Isn’t Steve Phillips the guy who traded Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano? I think yes”
You’re wrong, Phillips isn’t the guy who traded Kazmir.
actually no that was jim duquette. but steve phillips is an awful baseball analyst.
it is not melky or gardner alone in the lineup i am worried about.it is one of them combined with ransom & molina when he plays.
a 209 or 214 million dollar team has to be put together better than it is.
i agree they have gotten better especially in the minors but spending almost 2.5 million dollars a win is terrible.
AD — Unfortunately, I’m pretty sure he isn’t. That’s a common misconception that somebody on this board relieved me off last year. Too bad because he truly is an idiot and that was always a fun way to cement the point.
Pete, I think you’re way off on saying that Brett Gardner has a higher ceiling than Melky. Not many scouts have been very impressed by Brett but many consider Melky to be a legitimate starting CF.
Melky has been giving the Yankees every reason to play him while Brett has been giving them every reason NOT to play him.
I think we need to go with the proven Major League player here instead of the guy that can’t get on base.
Gardner can certainly be a pinch runner, but he’s been up here for what, 56 games? And he’s hitting under .250. It’s not a huge sample size, but it’s enough to have an idea of what to expect.
When Austin Jackson comesup, it seems like this entire debate may be for moot.
Going back to last year, Gardner has a big enough sample size to prove he can’t get on base enough. So I disagree, because I think Gardner has no upside at all.
And I was at the game yesterday and the crowd was pathetic. I know the weather was crappy, but there were many sections on the field level that were completely empty or had just a couple of people. And then there will people yelling at others to sit down when they stood up to cheer when the Yankees had two strikes and two outs on the A’s. It was like these people had never been to a Yankee game before. When they announced the attendance of about 43,000, the people around me laughed.
In my opinion, the Yankees priced their most loyal fans out of the stadium. The stadium itself is wonderful. The crowd is pathetic.
“When Austin Jackson comesup, it seems like this entire debate may be for moot.”
Maybe, maybe not. Austin Jackson may be terrible when he comes up.
For the record I am hoping he is great when he comes up to the show and I hope he’s the Yankees CF for the next 10-15 years.
There are also people saying Melky ‘s ceiling is higher than Gardner’s…
But I think Gardner has more chance to be successful only because he has a much mature mindset which lead him to a better opportunity of success and also consistency.
Gardner needs a new approach at the plate. He should be a slap hitter. Most times he takes a full cut he pops out.I must say that it is odd that a team like the Yanks would have such a weak centerfield. That position has been home to some of their greatest players.
Pete,
You just have too many clueless people posting on here.They don’t get it.
They think baseball is their fantasy league and the last time they saw a baseball personally…it was on a tee.
Baseball is a game of hot and cold. Gardner was red hot for much of ST, now he is a little bit cold. Some of that is that he is facing better pitching now, but he was bound to regress from a .400 spring. Let’s see where his numbers are in about six weeks after he has a chance to heat up again. And, even though his numbers have been a bit disappointing thus far, he has won a couple games for the Yanks, or at least made great contributions to a few wins; and he has scored a number of runs that nobody else on the team comes close to scoring.
Gardner has the lowest ops of any starting center fielder in the al. But actually has a higher obp than josh hamilton and a higher batting avg than hamilton and ken griffey jr. weird.
Gardner has the Willie Mays Hayes syndrome where he puts the ball in the air too much. Perhaps all these “changes with Kevin Long” to make him drive the ball more is making him try to drive the ball in the air too much. He needs to slap the ball more and learn how to drag bunt or bunt down the 3B line for a hit. Give him some time to see if he can figure it out.
And I am not saying Melky is the answer long term. Maybe he is no better than a 4th OF. But Gardner has no business being on the team.
Raymagnetic gettin nuts with the cut copy and paste today — but did you see the piece last night… maybe your a yankee hater, if so you would have liked it.
Needless to say, it was awuful
“Melky had power last April too and fell off the map after that and was one of the five worst offensive players in the AL for the rest of the season.”
He hit 5 homers in April, one in May, one in June and one in July. None after that. I hope that is not his pattern again this year.
Right now there are plenty of at bats for both to prove themselves one way or the other. But with the current injury situation, there is no doubt that the team needs them both.
Both Melky and BG do things the other simply can’t do. It is good for the team.
As I said in the previous thread, I’m not advocating change. Just stating that if a better option existed neither would be playing CF and that’s why the debate continues.
Pete and others opine Brett has a “higher ceiling” but I haven’t seen many say based on what. Brett is definitely a threat on the basepaths but almost everyone tempers that with IF he can get on base.
It’s also not fair to say Melky had 2 years so don’t judge Brett on 15 games. What Brett did or didn’t do last year also needs to be factored in the equation if you are using last year to factor Melky’s success.
Making sure that both of these guys get regular reps is only going to make the team stronger and discounting one doesn’t make the other better.
It will be interesting to see tomorrow’s line-up. Melky has hit Lester well (5/8) while Gardner has never faced him in the majors.
Can somebody please post pictures or links to pictures of Swish ringing the bell as soon as they’re available? I need a laugh today. – Thanks
How can you guys be worried about Melky and Gardner right now? I’m sitting here shaking after reading what Ortiz said. I bet Joba is terrified. lol
——————————
Red Sox slugger David Ortiz warned Joba Chamberlain through a group of reporters Wednesday night to keep the ball over the plate this weekend.
The Red Sox seem to be anticipating some aggressiveness from the Yankees when the two clubs begin a three-game series at Fenway Park on Friday night. “None of that, man — just play the game the way it’s supposed to be, and that’s about it,” Ortiz said, referring to Chamberlain. “”This is a guy, as good as he is, the next step for him will be to earn respect from everybody in the league.”
Ortiz might want to focus more on his hitting and less on threatening opposing pitchers…
“Raymagnetic gettin nuts with the cut copy and paste today—but did you see the piece last night… maybe your a yankee hater, if so you would have liked it.
Needless to say, it was awuful”
Which piece is that?
Sorry but I’m not a Yankee hater, I’m a born and bred Bronxite and still live in the Bronx. I’m NY down to my socks.
I’m not sure at all what you’re trying to say.
I hope Joba does hit customary “I’m gonna throw at Youk’s head and its up to Youk to get out of the way” and then just moves on with the game. It got comical last year
Shut up Fat Poopy!
does anyone have a link to ortiz comments
Bob i was ready to post that i had just finished reading that.I thought Ortiz was cool with joba and now hes talking shyt.
I saw that and I really didnt have a problem with it. Joba has thrown at Youk’s head alot ha. At least we dont have to worry about Ortiz’s offensive prowess these days haha.
Show some patience and wait and see what the next scene is, not the next snapshot.
===============================
Patience and some yankee fans don’t really seem to mix.
Ortiz is just trying to get in Joba’s head and try to influence the way he pitches, maybe make him think twice about going hard inside.
I saw the Ortiz nonsense on Rotoworld. I think it was in the Post but I refuse to read that or the Daily News anymore.
Here’s a picture of Swisher ringing the opening bell:
http://www.nyse.com/images/press/ob042309h.jpg
One good thing about Jobber is that he doesn’t care what people think about him. He’s going to pitch his game regardless of the comments people make about him.
I am now hoping that he goes up and in to Ortiz tomorrow and knocks him on his fat behind.
thanks
Seriously, hush up David Ortiz
Teddy i read it in the ny post let me see if i find it again.
Did anyone see Swisher ring the bell? What’s the backstory on why he was chosen?
Last night I left a link for all-star balloting. I said Cano, Jeter, Posada, and Tex were truly worthy. I later said that I was so excited I about Tex’s defense that I totally disregarded his numbers. But Cano, Jeter, & Posada are legit in the short season. I know it’s ridiculously early, but if you want to vote here’s the link: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/.....t_reg.html
I stayed out of the Wang debate, but ask yourselves why would the Yankees tell Wang to change his arm slot? Can we just chalk it up to a very long layoff?
Re: Melky & Gardner, wouldn’t you rather have them in the field than Swisher? There’s going to be plenty of AB’s. Girardi said in the spring, and he said it yesterday again, Melky’s always been an important part of the plans. Girardi also points back to his own experience on the championship teams about everyone accepting their role and contributing.
Betsy, Saw your note. I agree with everything you guys say. That being said, if we need to call anyone up for a spot start or two, Phil is the one who’s best equipped to do the job. I think what started the whole thing was my comment about not wanting to see Ian before Phil.
Bob, thanks! Haha, look at this name tag!
Melky and Gardner are both 4th outfielders at the moment, and yes, there are SEVERAL ML teams they’d each be the starting CF on RIGHT NOW. CF talent, as a whole, is not great, outside the few superstars.
Whoever ‘figures it out’ first should be the starter. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. Melky’s #1 strengths are his switch hitting and his ‘pull power’ (he can pull an HR down the line, but he’ll never hit 450 ft blasts). His #1 weakness is that he (at least last season), lets a few early season HRs get to his head, and tried pulling EVERYTHING, causing his weakly hit groundouts. Let’s face it, he’ll NEVER be a Nick Swisher, see 8 pitches an at bat before doubling to left, etc., but if he can put up a respectable .280/.375 or so, with 15 HR pop, and decent CF defense, he’s an asset. Otherwise, he’s a 4th OF, defensive replacement and sometime pinch hitter.
Gardner’s #1 asset is his speed, pure and simple. He changes the game when he’s on first in a close game (see: Dave Roberts, 2004 ALCS). He also has to see a .375 OBP to be an asset, and not a pure pinch runner/defensive replacement in late innings. He’s not shown great defense yet, but does anyone remember when Melky was FIRST called up? It takes awhile to learn a new stadium (the main reason I think ALL outfielders have looked mediocre in the first weak of the stadium, Choo and Sizemore had their gaffes in the opening series, also). If he can take better routes to balls, he’ll be a plus defensive CF with an average arm. I HAVE been impressed by his plate approach to a degree, but I think his plate approach is incorrect for his style of game – he approaches the plate like a slugger – taking two pitches, taking anything he thinks is close but slightly outside, etc., and pays for it. He absolutely MUST swing at the first pitch if it’s a fastball down the pipe. Unlike Melky, who does have some power, no ML pitcher is going to walk Gardner when they can blow fastballs down the middle instead, and he’s GOING to have to adjust by putting those meatballs in play rather than try to work a count.
To summarize – both are 4th outfielders with starting CF upsides (how many people were absolutely DROOLING over Juan Rivera last season? He’s a 4th OF). Neither will ever be a superstar, but both can end up being assets to this team (or another, if traded) if they can get their OBPs to .375+.
it is easy to say give them time but at what expense?
at the end of the year if we finish 3 games out & gardner bats 250 with a 330 obp & melky isn’t any better what then.
it is early & i am all for giving them more time but not forever.
the yankees will have to explore other cf options & i am sure they will.
nobody knows how good gardner or melky will be but if ajax is doing well after the break or a cf is available we should go out & get one.
the team will be much better with arod back & ransom out of the lineup.
if the pitching starts clicking,arod comes back ok & we get decent cf production from gardner,melky,ajax or someone else this team will be simply nasty.
the good thing is that all of the pitchers are healthy.
if we start clicking we can run off some nice winning streaks.
teddy
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04.....165712.htm
I hope the first pitch Joba throws to Ortiz is a high and tight fastball.
And also – the offense is doing well so far. Ransom/Melky/Gardner have not COST the Yankees a single win this year. With ARod back, it’s perfectly fine to have ONE league average or worse bat at the #9 slot.
A little off topic but does anyone know of any really good mets blogs or ny giants blogs on the net?
thanks
bodhisattva
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:10 am
John_Halfz
April 23rd, 2009 at 9:28 am
Gardner 2008: .228/.283/.299
Gardner 2009: .240/.283/.300
If he hadn’t gotten the hit against an A’s infield playing right behind the pitcher’s mound, he’d be hitting .220. Take away the double over Upton’s head when Upton was standing about 10 feet behind Iwamura, and it goes down to .200.
I have no problem with disliking Cabrera. But to suggest that a .583 OPS is getting the job done is ridiculous. Even Melky and can top that. And the competition in the field is proving to be a wash, as Gardner’s arm is about as strong as Bernie’s age 40 arm.
==============================================
At the moment, Melky Cabrera has a .385 OBP and an .826 slugging percentage. There is nothing to discuss. Girardi has to find a way to get him into the lineup. This is not about “what’s fair” to Cabrera and other sophomoric concerns this board seems consumed with. He has to play.
Cabrera, before yesterday, was actually not hacking at pitches, which is why he’s been able to build a .385 OBP. (Brett Gardner’s is currently .283).
Cabrera’s approach has been very good at the plate. The right-handed of yesterday’s two HRs had him relapsing into the bad habits that followed last season’s early power surge: forgetting to use his core and trying to jack everything. This isn’t uncommon in young hitters who suddenly discover power.
But if you’ve paid any attention, you know that those awful ABs between HRs yesterday – minus the BB – have been absent since Winter Ball , through ST and up until yesterday.
bodhisattva
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:36 am
SJ44
April 23rd, 2009 at 9:30 am
As coach states, had the Yankees lost, Melky swinging at a pitch 4 feet over his head with the bases loaded would have been a big reason for the loss.
====================================
“He would have been a big reason for the loss.”
That’s an interesting focus: what MAY have happened as opposed to what actually DID happen:
Heres’ what happened: Cabrera was a big reason for the win. He hit 2 HRs, one from each side of the plate, both of them no-doubt-about-it HRs, and the last of the two won the game in the 14th inning. So, why aren’t we discussing that?
As for the Ks, here’s some information you might not know:
if Melky Cabrera strikes out SIX MORE TIMES without walking, he will be tied with Brett Gardner, whose K-BB ratio is 10-3. Cabrera’s is 4-3.
SJ44
Let’s not get crazy over the results of a day or two.
I’d rather Melky keep his role as is and contribute than start and have his flaws, of which there are many, exposed again.
==============================================
Melky Cabrera is .304/.385/.826 right now, after 23 ABs this season.
Even if he tails off, which is reasonable to assume, it’s unlikely he’ll sink to Gardner’s current state:
.240/.283/.300 (50 ABs).
How ironic will it be if Beckett’s the one who ends up throwing at the Yankees? Wouldn’t that make Papi look like the total fraud that he is?
Joba needs to earn respect? Wha’? Ortiz should be glad everyone’s so busy debating Joba’s destiny that they’re not even talking about how much Ortiz sucks.
In re: to CC. Nobody can get too excited about CC and the media. CC’s lucky, they’re treating him with kid gloves, the way he’s pitching.
CC will tell you himself, that his bullpen looks good, but when he goes out there he’s trying to be too perfect. There’s also a quote from Posada owning up to the gaffe that allowed Giambi to score from 3B.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com.....8;c_id=nyy
Wow, I didn’t realize this: someone who his .277/.374 in 285 at bats in 2008: Doug Mientkiewicz.
If Melky or Gardner can hit like Doug Mientkiewicz (Melky with more HRs and Gardner with more SBs), they’ll be starting CFs.
Ortiz looks like Florida Evans and Shrek.
Looks like Joba is in the Sawx heads a bit.
ortiz needs to let the umpires controll the game.
nothing good can come out of him running his mouth.joba should not allow batters to take away half of the plate.
the pitcher has a right to that half also.
i do not advocate head hunting but joba should not be affraid to throw hard inside.
players nowadays automatically take offense immediately when a pitcher goes inside.
a pitcher simply can not give up that part of the plate if he want’s to be good.
Amen bodhisattva. His career avg obp and slg pct are all under .300!
Hello David, tell that to Joshy. He threw a ball mere inches from Bobby’s head. Funny.
yankeefan91 arod fan
thank you
Bust Ortiz inside near his wrist.
ALB3
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:26 am
Pete, I think you’re way off on saying that Brett Gardner has a higher ceiling than Melky. Not many scouts have been very impressed by Brett but many consider Melky to be a legitimate starting CF.
Melky has been giving the Yankees every reason to play him while Brett has been giving them every reason NOT to play him.
I think we need to go with the proven Major League player here instead of the guy that can’t get on base.
Gardner can certainly be a pinch runner, but he’s been up here for what, 56 games? And he’s hitting under .250. It’s not a huge sample size, but it’s enough to have an idea of what to expect.
================================
I agree with most of this but here’s my question:
On what, is based the optimism about Brett Gardner’s “upside”?
If this were ice hockey, Gardner could use his speed on the fourth line and be a decent forechecker.
In hockey, however, a player doesn’t have to perform prior to being on the ice to GET onto the ice.
Baseball is a set of individual, arcane skills; one of them is getting on base – Gardner’s OBP is not even mediocre – it’s dreadful. Good luck using his speed to “change the game”.
Yesterday was winning ugly. True, not all games are ideal wins but the RISP thing still lingers from 2008.
Why certain players don’t bunt is a mystery. As slow as he’s able to run, Matsui in certain conditions can bunt to move a runner over if it will contribute toward a win.
With A-Rod and Nady out, the team should be playing as much small ball as possible.
Live by the home run – die by the home run.
CB — In regards to your comment on the Sox new use of medical technology I think the perfect example there is Jed Lowrie. I read an article in the Globe where they were talking about the percentage of strength he had in his left and right wrist and how they knew he was injured because that number had decreased since the spring. If that sort of thing is available I would think it could only be more useful for figuring out pitcher’s physical issues. So many times an injury can seem minor to current imaging machines and end up being far worse.
As far as Wang relates to that I was wrong accusing Eliand of actively screwing with him. It just seems to me like this is something they should have been able to deal with in a better way than let him go out and get tattooed and be non-competitive for 2 starts in a row.
if gardner does not get his average & obp up he will be taken out of the lineup.
no way the yankees can live with hid dreadfull obp.
I’ve been a Gardner guy for a while but Melky is making a nice case for himself. You can’t argue with a walk off homer. Then again if we look at his last April we saw similar power #’s and then a nosedive. Maybe last years demotion taught him something.
“Neither will ever be a superstar, but both can end up being assets to this team (or another, if traded) if they can get their OBPs to .375+.”
Last year 2 CF in baseball had OBP of .375 or greater – Upton and Beltran.
Only 4 had OBP of greater than .370.
The probability of either melky or gardner ever getting on base close to that rate is very, very small.
If that’s the criteria for them being successful starters then they are bound to fail.
More realistic expectations would be for either one to be simply league average offensively.
The only player who was a good player and had a skill set similar to Gardner’s was Brett Butler. Over the past 30 years he’s the only one I can think of.
Brett Butler was way over a league average CF so that’s a higher bar than would be needed for Gardner to be a decent starter.
But it does show how rare it is for a player like Gardner to become a good player who is a good mark above league average.
jint51
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:54 am
A little off topic but does anyone know of any really good mets blogs or ny giants blogs on the net?
thanks
———————-
http://www.metsblog.com/
Pete, I agree with what you wrote but patience is not a common trait of NYY fans these days. As someone else pointed out, Bernie said he wouldn’t make it today because there is no time to develop. Wait until AJax comes up and he goes 0-4 with 4Ks (he has a habit of K’ing)and hits .200 in his first month. Fans and media will be all over him. I’m happy the NYY have both Melky & Brett. The competition is a good thing for them and the team.
Gardner needs to sit down and watch tape of David Eckstein. That’s the kind of player he should become. Much too early to make a judgement of Gardner. Another month to six weeks and we all can come to a conclusion.
“On what, is based the optimism about Brett Gardner’s “upside”?”
I’ve wondered this myself.
One of the most perplexing take on Gardner has been Steve Goldman.
Goldman prides himself on being an analytic basebal prospectus guy.
He’s been rampaging about how Xavier Nady is just a bench player and Nick Swisher has to start because Swisher will have a higher OBP.
At the same time he’s been a big advocate of Gardner going as far as to say the yankees didn’t need another CF in the off season as Gardner had earned his shot and should be the starter.
I have no idea what that’s based on. Statistically Gardner was terrible last year in the majors and his MLE translation stats aren’t very good.
Gardner has a strong grip on people’s imagination, even a guy like Goldman’s.
Could Ortiz be setting something up. Getting in the heads of the umps that something may happen. Get them to overreact on a pitch inside and toss him?
BG Rips! I just cannot stand when he pops out, if you have that type of speed, hit the ball on the ground and make something happen!
Melky is a little punk who got too cocky with his other punk friend Robbie Cano and partied every night last year after games. A female that I know can confirm this firsthand. Without L-Bow in Robbie’s ear last year you saw what happened!
If those two smarten up and re-gain their focus the sky is the limit for Cano, and who knows, maybe the Melk man can hit 275/280. Sign me up.
Could be Jennifer, I thought about the same thing.
“It’s amusing that people take nine percent of the season and decide a player is no good. Or that somebody else is good. ”
———————————
When does All-Star voting begin? LOL
“None of that, man—just play the game the way it’s supposed to be, and that’s about it,” Ortiz said, referring to Chamberlain. “”This is a guy, as good as he is, the next step for him will be to earn respect from everybody in the league.”
He says this while Beckett is suspended for nearly hitting Abreu in the head after time was called and then mouthing off like he wanted to get in a bar fight. I would bet that whoever asked him that question was just looking for a controversial answer. Something like “Do you think the Joba will throw at any of the Red Sox hitters?” I guess NY isn’t the only city with crappy journalists. (Not talking about Abraham)
About Gardner and Melky. I was sure that Gardner would disappoint a lot of fans from the way people were hyping him up through the winter and his hot spring training. He’s a 1 tool player. I think Yankee fans might be overrating what speed can do for a team just because the Yankees haven’t had a guy like him in a long time.
Melky has had great stretches as a Yankee, but always seems to have 2 months where he is awful. If he could ever put a full baseball season together, centerfield wouldn’t be an issue.
Imagine if both play to their potential this year.
2010 could be Gardner in left, Jackson in Center, and Cabrera in right.
I always like home grown lineups, but this outfield has zero power.
I don’t get why Ortiz had to say anything – oh wait, he’s laying the groundwork for a Joba suspension in case Joba even inadvertently comes close to hitting a Sox. It’s ridiculous. I’m loving the AJ/Beckett matchup, but the fact that Beckett didn’t even miss a start with the suspension in place is disgraceful – someone is asleep in the commish’s office. If you aren’t going to miss a game, what is the point of suspending someone?
M, I understand not wanting to see Ian…..but if the Yankees are that scared that he can’t succeed at all against MLB pitching, then they should trade him right away. I suspect Phil will get the call – and it’s a mistake. He’ll be up here for awhile, if that’s the case, because Wang’s issues will take awhile to resolve. Those precious weeks could be spent working on his pitches. Now he’s not going to be afforded that luxury. It seems as if Phil is always the victim of circumstances. If the Yankees are smart, they will not bring him up……but when it comes to Phil, I don’t trust them.
austin jackson will be a 30/30 player for a 20 year career culminating with a plaque in monument park. fact.
CB,
Even one of the espn senior analysts said in a piece, “If you can’t cheer for Brett Gardner, you don’t like baseball.”
Maybe he’s the “li’l engine that could”.
Now, I’m not saying he’s Shane Victorino, but Brett reminds me of him with all the little things he does in a game. The (then) Scranton manager would leave daily voicemail updates on Victorino’s play. Whether it was a fabulous play in the field, a game-winning hit, there was always something.
I said the other day, that the intangibles do matter when you’re evaluating marginal players.
Speed doesn’t matter if you can’t get on base. The Gardner spin continues, Gardner is glorified for looking like a Dustin Pedroia clone in February when it doesn’t matter but anything Melky does is thrown under the bus. Gardner is not a Yankee, he just looks like he’d fit in w/ Sully and co in Boston, the undersized ‘scrappy’ guy……he’s nothing more than a pinch runner in late innings in my opinion
Betsy,
Serious question. How much longer do you think Phil needs to work on his pitches?
I’m sure Beckett will be the one to start something – he always does. Unfortunately, if AJ responds, then he will be the one ejected. He’s just got to keep his cool…there’s no winning for him.
I’m sure Beckett will be the one to start something – he always does. Unfortunately, if AJ responds, then he will be the one ejected. He’s just got to keep his cool…there’s no winning for him.
“Could Ortiz be setting something up.”
Much ado about zippage IMO. Nobody would have mentioned it if someone from the Post hadn’t asked. Ortiz took the bait.
Oddly, Ortiz has NEVER been hit by a Yankees pitcher.
Given a choice, I’d rather see B.J. Upton or Josh Hamilton patrol CF for the Yankees but neither will see free agency for another 3 years including 2009.
SJ44
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:06 am
Show patience? Read the game threads Pete! lol
…..
I think Melky’s niche, regardless of what happens to Gardner, is as a 4th OF. He can help the team in that role because you don’t overexpose him.
======================================================
And are you at all concerned about Gardner’s flaws being over-exposed?
It may, or may not be so, that Cabrera is doomed to play out his days as a 4th OF. (of course, that’s relative to the team he plays for, and his competition, and subject to how much he is able to improve).
Speaking of patience, it’s interesting the way people speak if Cabrera, 24, as an open-and-shut case in terms of “ceiling,” but the 25-year old Gardner is just assumed to have a higher ceiling.
Cabrera actually managed a .360 OBP for a whole ML season.
Gardner is struggling to get his to .300.
What is the basis for your optimism regarding Gardner?
M, I don’t know, but he needs at least most of the year in AAA (CB or SJ44 would give you a better answer as I’m definitely no expert, lol). He never had the chance to do that in 2007 because the Yankees recalled him way before they intended to do so. I want him to spend enough time in AAA to the point where he’s mastered his FB command and curve and where the cutter and change are weapons for him (right now they are inconsistent, esp. the change). When Phil comes up, I want it to be for good.
Betsy,
Fair enough. But right or wrong, I trust Nardi Contreras’ word when the time comes.
I suspect that both guys will continue to get playing time and neither will distinguish himself that he is automatically in the lineup every day.
Personally I prefer Melky because I like his power potential and arm more than Brett’s speed, but both can contribute to winning.
There’s no chance on earth, that the 2010 OF will be Gardner, Jackson and Cabrera.
So someone from the Post asked? Why am I not surprised.
If Beckett throws at someone you can be SURE AJ will go tit for tat. Beckett is the kind of guy who would throw extremely high and inside on someone like Jeter.
Watch what happens if he does. If AJ doesn’t respond (which would shock me) you will certainly see one of the relievers do it.
Well I just read the Big Papi comments and its not that bad, he actually complimented Joba..but Joba needs to ignore Papi and just got about pitching.
ampayank
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
Speed doesn’t matter if you can’t get on base. The Gardner spin continues, Gardner is glorified for looking like a Dustin Pedroia clone in February when it doesn’t matter but anything Melky does is thrown under the bus. Gardner is not a Yankee, he just looks like he’d fit in w/ Sully and co in Boston, the undersized ‘scrappy’ guy……he’s nothing more than a pinch runner in late innings in my opinion
==============================
Right, Tampayank:
This doesn’t add up.
Even though baseball is the most reliable game when it comes to numbers, let’s not go with the kid who’s actually producing, because, eventually, he’ll level off.
That level, meanwhile, isn’t even being approached by the other guy, but hes’ the one who needs to play.
Strange.
I say we belt Ortiz this game.
Betsy -
I generally agree with you.
But two things occur to me:
1) There are established pitchers on the ML level who from one start to the next have to “find” the pitches that are working for them each time out. It seems to me that pitching is a very inexact art and if Hughes is able to be consistent with his pitches most of the time, then he is not much different than pitchers already in the majors.
2) The Yankees need to win ML games and if they need to replace Wang, they need to replace him with the best pitcher they have waiting. I tend to agree with those here that think that Hughes is that guy.
In a perfect world, Phil Hughes would probably have been starting in the majors this year, because the last 2 years would have been basically uninterrupted in the minor leagues. But, he’s had a taste of the majors, he’s had a taste of SUCCESS in the majors, and he will not be a wide-eyed kid overly impressed with being in the majors.
In a perfect world, Wang comes back in tip-top form (or close) and the issue never comes up.
I no longer think bringing Hughes up for a month of starts will set him back. I think he’s better than that.
Who is a really viable alternative to Hughes? Kennedy? Aceves? Igawa?
I don’t know.
You Can’t Beat the Viz to be released and the ex-Notre Dame WR to be recalled.
As for this weekend? Poopi’s comments are a big to-do about nothing as Steve said. We always play our best against Boston. You just have to stand up to them. Loving the never-say-die pesonality of this team.
I’m sure Beckett will be the one to start something – he always does. Unfortunately, if AJ responds, then he will be the one ejected. He’s just got to keep his cool…there’s no winning for him.
__________
Burnett can wait until he is ready to be taken out, and leave on a high note. Retaliation doesnt have to be immediate. And if there is no warning after beckett, burnett can still make a point, get warned and then we move on.
sox fans are so hypocritically sensitive. youkilis makes a huge deal out of joba throwing over his head, but when beckett does it to abreu, it’s no big deal. WA WA to the team who has pegged us 3 times as much as we have hit them in the last 10 years.
CB
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:15 am
“On what, is based the optimism about Brett Gardner’s “upside”?”
I’ve wondered this myself.
One of the most perplexing take on Gardner has been Steve Goldman.
——————————————-
I think most of Goldman’s pro-Gardner stance has been more of a non Melky stance.
He’s said many times that expectations for Gardner should not be high. He basis his support for him over Melky, because Melky has already had time to show what he is and that there is little chance of getting anything more out of him than he gives now.
Well I for one was wrong about Veras…he pitched a hell of a game for the Yanks yesterday, but reading the local papers you wouldn’t even know that he pitched. Hopefully he can keep it going.
As for the Gardner/Melky debate it is too early to tell on Gardner…if you look at the reining MVP and 07 ROY (very hard for me to write it) Pedroia had a horrible start to his career.
I am not saying that Gardner will be anywhere near Pedrioa in regards to production…all I am saying is that it is too early to make judgment on what type of player he will be.
However, the one thing that do have to say is that for some reason it appears that he not playing CF the way I thought he would, minus the catch he made on Giambi’s ball. IMO he seems to get some bad jumps and takes odd routes on fly balls…but what do I know.
If this is the case, based on Melky’s track record, arm, switch-hitting capabilities and occasional power…he will make Girardi’s job a little harder.
Melky’s a better baseball player than Gardner in every measurable way other than foot speed. He makes better contact, he hits for more power, he’s a better fielder (Gardner’s invented rep as a great glove notwithstanding), has a better arm, switch hits, has a cooler name, etc., etc. He was dragged to the Major Leagues before he was ready and it’s hurt his development as a hitter. Hanging around with Cano and helpoing him spend his money hasn’t helped. But Gardner doesn’t have an ounce of his talent.
The names people throw around as Gardner comparisons (Brett Butler, Juan Pierre, Mickey Rivers) are all guys who made contact at league-leading levels. Gardner was on pace to strike out 100 times at Triple A last year and he’s at the same pace now. You cannot succeed with his limited skills in the major leagues while doing that.
Gardner’s a 5th outfielder and a pinch-runner who’ll be lucky to have a few Homer Bush moments. His main contribution to the team will be lighting a fire under Melky.
bod
I get it that you like Melky but it isn’t right to cherry pick stats to back up your argument. That .360 OBP was in 06. What you fail to mention that in 07 it was .327 and 08 .301.
Neither one may be good enough but when you have a player regress each year that doesn’t earn playing time.
You may be right that he has learned and will be better but with his past track record he will not be the starter based on a few games.
For as good as it was that he hit two homeruns the three strike outs showed that he still has a problem with plate discipline. That in itself will hinder his playing time. That was one of the reasons some here wanted to get rid of cano last year. Look at the improvement so far this year.
Coach6423 April 23rd, 2009 at 10:36 am
Both Melky and BG do things the other simply can’t do. It is good for the team.
————
I think that’s pretty much the best way to look at it. They’re both contributing. What’s the problem? ( BTW, I’m going on record to say I’m a Melk fan!)
Bod,
What I’ve said consistently is, I don’t know if Gardner will hit enough to stay in the majors. I think though they should give him more time to see if he can.
Melky has a 3 year body of work for examination. The last 4 months of last year, he was one of the worst offensive players in the AL.
They may be both 4th OF’s in the end.
That said, it doesn’t hurt the Yankees to give Gardner more time to see if he can get the job done.
Melky had 3 years to make CF his and couldn’t do it. I think we can give Gardner more than 50 AB’s.
Saying Melky Cabrera should be the starting CF because of 23 at-bats in April is absurd.
It’s a pretty safe bet Cabrera won’t be slugging .826 by the end of the season. Call it a hunch.
He’s played 428 games in the majors. The chances of him suddenly morphing into Bernie Williams are just not likely.
This whole Gardner vs. Melky debate is tedious. Both, up until this point, have proven to be marginal major leaguers. The only difference is that Gardner’s performance is from a much smaller sample size – 57 games.
While I agree with Pete that Gardner has a bit of a higher ceiling than Melky, the competition between the two of them can only help the team.
It’s illogical to root against either one of them.
Mold Melky and Gardner into one guy. melky’s faults are Gardners strengths and vice versa. Give Melky’s bat for Gardner’s approach. Gardner’s speed with Melky’s arm. Overall though the Yankees need consistency and these guys haven’t been consistent. A guy that bats down in the order needs to get on base, bunt, walk, etc. Gardner has an eye, but hasn’t been walking, he never tries to bunt for a base hit or draw a guy in from third more so that when he does slap it the other way he gives himself more of a shot to punch it through. His swings become too defensive. Melky is the opposite at times, he gets too aggressive and all over the zone. Gardner understands limitations and plays into his too much. Melky doesn’t see he has limitations, he isn’t a 30 home run guy. He guts needs to consistently hit line drives and get on for the top of the order. I think having both is a healthy trade off. Cameron batting every day I don’t see adding that much more than the combo of these two.
“Melky’s a better baseball player than Gardner in every measurable way other than foot speed.”
What proof is there of this?
Root for both Gardner and Melky. If they both do well, it means the Yankees are, most likely, successful.
There seems to be a lot post-rationalism happening on both sides of the argument.
Hey, if anyone needs to be reminded how lame and stupid Red Sox fans are, check this out. Someone just emailed it to me and all I could do is shake my head at how lame they are.
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.c.....ers_1.html
JB
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:53 am
Mold Melky and Gardner into one guy. melky’s faults are Gardners strengths and vice versa. Give Melky’s bat for Gardner’s approach
===============================
If Gardner had a good approach, he wouldn’t have an OBP of .283. He rarely fouls a pitch off, and does not have extended ABs. Where do you see a good approach?
Only 4 CF last year had an OBP of .370+….Beltran, Upton, Hamilton, and Sizemore. The median OBP for the CF slot was right around .336 (Elsbury)
So, while a .370 OBP would be nice for Gardner/Melky, .330 is more realistic.
I have always been a big fan of Melky. However, I thought he was horrible yesterday. He had an absolutely horrendous at bat in the 7th with the bases loaded, which could have ended the game, and later in extra innings he swung at a pitch near his head to strike out. Until he goes opposite field I see him as an excellent 4th outfielder and nothing more.
So, should we call Ortiz, “Arias”
http://www.homeruncards.com/im.....-ultra.jpg
a little historical perspective from Buster:
One of the strangest plays you will see all year: With runners at first and third and one out, there was a chopper hit back to the Yankees’ CC Sabathia. He turned and fired to Derek Jeter at second base, in an attempt to start a doubleplay, and Jeter — seeing that Jason Giambi was breaking from third base and that it might be difficult to finish a doubleplay with a throw to first — threw homeward. To nobody. Posada had vacated home plate, to go to back up what he anticipated to be a throw to first base, and Jeter’s throw sailed past home plate umpire C.B. Bucknor, as Giambi jogged home. Posada took the blame for the play, writes Jeff Roberts.
Sabathia heard his first boos as a Yankee in the middle of Wednesday’s game, after allowing the tying run on a single to Matt Holliday and getting pulled with the score 7-all. But later, Melky Cabrera did something that only Babe Ruth had accomplished before him — hit the first walkoff homer in a Yankee Stadium. Mark Simon of ESPN Research went into the archives for this stuff from the first Yankee Stadium walk-off, on July 3, 1923, against the Senators in the 15th inning.
The New York Times provides the following account: “(George) Mogridge made only one mistake. He gave Ruth a fastball through the groove in the last half of the fifteenth and the Bambino swatted it on a line into the right field seats, just a few feet inside the foul line. It was a rifle shot of a home run and it broke up the game. As soon as the ball was hit, the 5,000 spectators rushed out on the field and Ruth had to elbow his way through a dense crowd before he could touch the plate with the winning run.”
SJ44: You keep saying Melky is a 4th outfielder at best but you don’t know that. Yes I know he had two horrible years but don’t ignore his first year which was quite good. Players regress it happens, maybe he got off track, maybe he didn’t work hard enough, maybe he was a 22-23 year old young CF for the New York Yankees and that is a lot of pressure, maybe he was rushed up to the ML. So I get what your saying but 2 bad years does not make a player especially a really young one. But on the other had I do agree that the Gardner deserves his chance because he did win the job in ST, and I think the competition between the two of them will help rather than hurt the team.
Did Ortiz happen to mention the # of times the Sox have hit the Yankees?
According to Papi, I guess the Sox pitchers don’t deserve any respect around the league.
“Now, I’m not saying he’s Shane Victorino, but Brett reminds me of him with all the little things he does in a game.”
what does he do? he’s already gotten picked off. he can’t seem to bunt. so what is it?
i’m asking a serious question.
everyone seems to just ASSUME he “does the little things” b/c he’s “scrappy” and “gritty”, but what exactly does he do?
he strikes out too much. yesterday, all they needed was a ground ball and let him beat out the double play, but he popped it up.
so, seriously, what are these “little things” that Gardner does?
Tex’s New Best Friend
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:40 am
sox fans are so hypocritically sensitive. youkilis makes a huge deal out of joba throwing over his head, but when beckett does it to abreu, it’s no big deal. WA WA to the team who has pegged us 3 times as much as we have hit them in the last 10 years.
——————-
COME ON! Yankees fans are just as hypocritical. You guys hate Youk/Pedroia/Beckett etc. but if they some how came up through the Yankees organization, you’d love them and have their back. You’re telling me that if Joba wore a Sox jersey, you wouldn’t hate him?
Give me a break….and this is coming from a good Red Sox fan who gets just as easily annoyed by Sox fans as Yankees fans.
Also interesting:
The most swing and misses for hitters in 2009, from Jason Paradise of ESPN Research. The odd thing? The Rangers have three of the top seven:
Hitters With Most Swing & Misses
Player Swing/Miss
Josh Hamilton 46
Chris Davis 44
Ryan Howard 39
Jordan Schafer 39
Adrian Gonzalez 38
*David Ortiz 37*
Nelson Cruz 36
Matt Kemp 36
Carlos Pena 36
Corey Hart 34
Tom in N.J.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:57 am
Root for both Gardner and Melky. If they both do well, it means the Yankees are, most likely, successful.
There seems to be a lot post-rationalism happening on both sides of the argument.
====================================================
Except there has been virtually nothing rational offered in support of Gardner. There has been nothing statistically to validate the optimism that he will become a productive player.
Meanwhile, Cabrera, in his 23 ABs, has actually produced: .304/.385/.826.
“SJ44: You keep saying Melky is a 4th outfielder at best but you don’t know that. ”
————
Of course he doesn’t know it for sure. Outside of Yankeeland it’s the general consensus though. Anbody who claims otherwise is in the vast minority.
If Melky is more than a 4th OF, he needs to pick up his game.
Good post Peter, too bad nobody will listen. And will you so-called Yankee fans stop booing everybody in April!!! Geeez, it’s embarrassing, it’s like you don’t understand the game.
new post
SOX Fan,
Of course Yanks fans would root for Pedroia or Youk is they came up as Yankees.
That’s hardly a defense for the hypocritical and whiny nature of many Sox fans. It’s a safe assumption that you fit that description when your defense of Beckett throwing at Abreu is… well, I guess you didn’t have one.
curious
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
“Now, I’m not saying he’s Shane Victorino, but Brett reminds me of him with all the little things he does in a game.”
what does he do? he’s already gotten picked off. he can’t seem to bunt. so what is it?
i’m asking a serious question.
everyone seems to just ASSUME he “does the little things” b/c he’s “scrappy” and “gritty”, but what exactly does he do?
he strikes out too much. yesterday, all they needed was a ground ball and let him beat out the double play, but he popped it up.
so, seriously, what are these “little things” that Gardner does?
=====================================
He strikes out a lot. His K to BB ratio is 10-3. This is not a good approach, and it’s not someone who knows how to battle at the plate and extend ABs. This is a fiction, based on people’s desires.
Before I call him gritty, I need to see him hang in there at the plate, foul some pitches off, and make better selections. He has not done this.
COME ON! Yankees fans are just as hypocritical. You guys hate Youk/Pedroia/Beckett etc. but if they some how came up through the Yankees organization, you’d love them and have their back. You’re telling me that if Joba wore a Sox jersey, you wouldn’t hate him?
not talking about the players, talking about the attitude of close pitches.
Boston Dave
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:05 pm
“SJ44: You keep saying Melky is a 4th outfielder at best but you don’t know that. ”
——————
Of course he doesn’t know it for sure. Outside of Yankeeland it’s the general consensus though. Anbody who claims otherwise is in the vast minority.
If Melky is more than a 4th OF, he needs to pick up his game.
=====================================
Which player needs to “pick up his game”?
Melky Cabrera: .304/.385/.826
Brett Gardner: .240/.283/.300
“And will you so-called Yankee fans stop booing everybody in April!!! Geeez, it’s embarrassing, it’s like you don’t understand the game.”
——-
have to agree with this one.
bod,
awful shortsighted of you to post 2 weeks of baseball in April to try and make a point.
can I sell you on some stocks? they were great for 2 days!
23 Ab’s does not mean anything. Its cherrypicking stats.
Last year, over a larger body of work, Melky was the worst offensive OF in the AL from May 1 until the end of the season.
His OBP declined to .301. His numbers have gone DOWN each year.
In other words, the more he has played and pitchers have gotten the book on him, he has gotten worse.
When you are trending downward, you are going to lose your job.
Even yesterday, we saw the good and bad Melky.
The good: 2 HR’s, one a game winner.
The bad: 3 K’s on horrible swings.
That’s the problem. Neither guy has distinguished himself enough to garner all the PT. Basically, BOTH guys are 4th OF’s.
We talk about Gardner’s approach, what about Melky’s? Look at his 3 K’s yesterday and tell me how was his approach? He just flailed at pitches no where near the strikezone.
If Gardner did the same thing, and he has, Melky fans would lose their minds over it.
Both guys have strengths and weaknesses. The problem is, folks saddle up to one side or the other in the debate and won’t acknowledge the positives and negatives of each player.
Its why I want to see more of Gardner and Melky coming off the bench for right now. I already know what Melky can do. I want to see if Gardner can give them something. If that motivates Melky, great! If Gardner can’t get the job done over a larger sample size, he won’t be the CF all season.
All in all, at least until they get a better CF, or Austin Jackson is ready, its a good position for the Yankees to be in because both guys may end up bringing the best out of one another.
Boston Dave
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
bod,
awful shortsighted of you to post 2 weeks of baseball in April to try and make a point.
can I sell you on some stocks? they were great for 2 days!
===================================
Let’s stick to the facts, shall we?
Melky Cabrera has done this so far, largely coming off the bench:
.304/.385/.826
You said he “needs to pick up his game.”
Wouldn’t those numbers indicate he’s doing just that?
Boston Dave,
I wasn’t reading the blog back when the whole Joba/Youk thing went down. What was the response when that happened? Did most of you defend Joba? I’m asking these sincerely and not trying to start a war.
“Talking to reporters at his locker for about 20 minutes between games of yesterday’s split doubleheader against the Twins — the Yankees’ game against the Athletics was on TV in the clubhouse — Ortiz said this weekend will not feel like the normal Yankee-Red Sox circus.
“This one is an easy one — they are missing A-Rod,” Ortiz said. ”
=================================
I’m sure that loudmouth Jason Bay will really add some fire to the rivalry now that Manny is gone.
new post—–
If Melky had at least continued to hit like he did in 06 there wouldn’t be a discussion. You would like to see him improve on that but when he regresses you can’t blame the Yankees for looking for someone else.
Like it has been mentioned before he had the chance to get the position in ST and didn’t get it done. This doesn’t mean he can’t play a role and a good one at that. There are many games won by role players.
This being said I’m not trying to say that Gardner is going to be better but he got the chance based on ST performance. It doesn’t mean that if he doesn’t perform he won’t be replaced. It’s to early to get to stirred up about either one at this point.
Bod,
And the fact is, because he’s picked up his game, he’s playing more.
Perhaps this is his niche. Its not the worst thing in the world to come off the bench and contribute like he has thus far.
However, 23 AB’s does not constitute giving him his job back. Nor does 50 AB’s constitute Gardner being the CF all season.
If Melky continues to produce and Gardner doesn’t, Melky will play more.
So far, after less than 4 weeks of play, I don’t think its out of line to give Gardner more time to see what he can do.
They already know what Melky can do. They are still in the learning stages with Gardner.
And let’s not forget, when Melky was thrown into it, he was able to play through his mistakes and missteps because the Yankees had no one else to play at that time due to injury.
You have to give a player time (and 50 AB’s isn’t “time”) to see if he can help you.
While some have put Melky’s 2008 season in the rearview mirror, the Yankees haven’t. You can’t wipe out 4 horrible months of baseball in 23 AB’s.
If he keeps it up, he will play more. Especially if Gardner can’t get the job done.
Many of Girardi’s initial decisions suck: Gardner, Nady, no long man, keep playing Wang, etc etc
Sox Fan,
there were plenty of Yanks fans that supported Joba, perhaps mainly because it was Youk.
If Beckett buzzed ARod I’m sure it would be different among Sox fans than if it were Jeter (even though they don’t like Jete either deep down they respect him).
I’m all for throwing inside but throwing at guys heads is indefensible whether you’re a Sox fan or Yanks fan.
I find it funny that Ortiz would call out Joba when the Sox have hit the Yanks far more. I do hope Joba brushes him back but he doesn’t need to throw at his head.
For the Yankees, it would seem it would be better to have Melky be the guy who fills in everywhere else. In a short time this season, he has showed that he is able to be inactive for several days, and then play effectively. Not every player is able to do this.
You can’t ignore Melky’s poor year last year. You can’t ignore that in both of his previous years he tailed off at the end of the season. I don’t think it’s impossible for a 23-24 year old guy to work hard and try to turn a trend around. So, for Melky that means being prepared for every game, and not having those bad at-bats that he had yesterday when given the chance to play. But aside from those 3 bad at bats, he had 4 good ones. 2 HRs, a walk and a well-hit ball for an out.
For Gardner, he needs to figure out how to get on base. When he’s on base it has become evident that he can manufacture a run. He’s got great speed. But so far I have not seen the speed translate into very good outfield play, with the exception of a couple of plays. His arm is fair, so far.
But the point for the Yankees is to be able to get the best out of both of those guys. The team is more important than the individual.
bod,
we get it. You love Melky. But as has been said numerous times, Gardner won the battle for CF and deserves a chance to show he’s their best option. All your campaigning for Melky isn’t going to change that.
maybe losing the job was a wakeup call for Melky and he’ll “commit himself to baseball” a la ARod.
we all want him to do well but Gardner won the CF competition in ST and he deserves a reasonable chance to show what he’s got.
Boston Dave,
I agree, pitching inside is part of the game but head hunting is a no-no. Beckett should have been given the same suspension as Joba and been forced to miss a start.
I’m glad he didn’t though.
And neither one of them came through with the bases loaded yesterday, lest we forget.
Doreen
good point. The ones that blamed Gardner for not hitting with the bases loaded must have forgotten about the strike out before him.
One of Gardner’s biggest problems is that he is so intent on trying to get on base, he’s passing up great pitches to hit early in counts and getting himself in a hole.
Its ok to hit your way on base. I think he is too focused on “working counts” and drawing walks and its actually working against him.
One of the problems with stathead baseball is the over reliance on walk totals. As with all statistical analysis, it has to be taken in context.
When a guy comes to the plate looking to walk so he can hit certain OBP numbers, he loses his aggressiveness at the plate and that’s not good.
I watched Gardner for 5 straight days in BP. He can drive the ball gap to gap with ease when he’s just seeing a pitch and hitting it.
He has to take some swings early in counts. You don’t have to do it every AB. However, if you do it, and you are successful, you won’t be getting into 0-1, 1-2 counts (pitchers counts) on “get over” fastballs and curveballs.
It will make him more of an offensive/OBP threat. Pitchers right now have no need to walk him because they are often ahead in counts during his AB’s.
Its all part of the learning process.
Often with young players you have two types of hitters. Guys who swing at everything and guys who are overly selective.
Finding that happy medium is the challenge.
Sox Fan
I don’t condone what Joba did and don’t know what he’s up to with that. I did have a problem that Pedro hit at least one Yankee every game with no punishment. Yet if the Yankees started something they would get suspended with no warning. You may remember one game Pedro took out both Jeter and Soriano by hitting them in the hand. If it was on occasion no problem but it was blatant with him.
SJ44
I think you are accurate on that assesment. When he takes good swings the ball really takes off. Nothing wrong with being a gap hitter. He could get alot of triples if he hit the gaps consistantly.
SJ44
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
23 Ab’s does not mean anything. Its cherrypicking stats.
==================================
They do mean something; go back and watch the ABs before yesterday. Then tell me his approach hasn’t improved. The .385 OBP is up there for a reason, despite the low plate appearances.
SJ44
Last year, over a larger body of work, Melky was the worst offensive OF in the AL from May 1 until the end of the season.
His OBP declined to .301.
====================
Even then, his ability to get on base trumps Gardner’s.
If we’re going to damn a 24 year old based on his worst season – when he was 23 and trying to reconcile new-found power with a slap approach, and not allow for that awkward transition, let’s look at Brett Gardner’s OBP/SLUG LAST year:
He’s had 177 career ABs thus far. That’s not a great deal, but let’s look to see if there has been an improvement vs. ML pitching, since last season:
Last season .228/.283/.299 (127 ABs)
This season: .240/.283/.300 (50 ABs)
Stunningly similar, wouldn’t you say?
How about his 53 OPS+ last year?
It’s 52 this year. Again, very consistent.
His BB/SO rate projected average over 162 games= 31 to 114. He was 8-30 last season, and is 3-10 this year.
If the rate weren’t so dismal and there was some improvement, there would be at least some basis for hope that his speed would actually be put to some use.
Conversely, Melky at least flirts with power and production, which tells me he has something more to offer.
Red Sox slugger David Ortiz warned Joba Chamberlain through a group of reporters Wednesday night to keep the ball over the plate this weekend.
The Red Sox seem to be anticipating some aggressiveness from the Yankees when the two clubs begin a three-game series at Fenway Park on Friday night. “None of that, man—just play the game the way it’s supposed to be, and that’s about it,” Ortiz said, referring to Chamberlain. “”This is a guy, as good as he is, the next step for him will be to earn respect from everybody in the league.”
—
Papi’s just giving Joba some pitching advice. He’s seen how Joba throws too many balls and is afraid to attack the zone so he’s just telling him to keep it over the plate : )
Both Melky & GGBG are still very young and both have great potential to develop both defensively and at the plate.
Getting them both more playing time & experience only increases our options for next years outfield as contrast are up for Damon, Matsui, & Nady.
Does anyone know if there are any Yankee blogs that bash the Red Sox like Boston Dirt Dogs does to us?
I mean I am all about taking the high road, but I also want to participate in some good ol’ fashioned trash talking as well.
Also, its good to unite fans against a common enemy.
Contracts (oops sorry)
under
Living in enemy territory I hear that stuff all the time.
They talked that way even before 04.
“But I do think his ceiling is higher than Melky’s, if he can figure out how to raise his OBP just to the league average.”
Silly. Compare their ages and minor league record (take careful note of Gardner’s strikeouts). Melky is not a great player, but he’s maintained a batting average on the big league level that Gardner will never approach. Melky is a fringe major league starting outfielder while Gardner will top out as a pinch-running 4th or 5th outfielder at best. I like Gardner’s grit and speed as much as anyone; but when he makes contact he looks he hit the ball with a pool cue — and his strikeout rate is ridiculous for a powerless hitter. He’s no Juan Pierre, not even in the minors.
There is a local sports radio show that has almost as much Yankee bashing calls as ones about RS. A few Yankee fans call in and trash talk them.
SJ44
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Bod,
And the fact is, because he’s picked up his game, he’s playing more.
Perhaps this is his niche. Its not the worst thing in the world to come off the bench and contribute like he has thus far.
However, 23 AB’s does not constitute giving him his job back. Nor does 50 AB’s constitute Gardner being the CF all season.
If Melky continues to produce and Gardner doesn’t, Melky will play more.
So far, after less than 4 weeks of play, I don’t think its out of line to give Gardner more time to see what he can do.
They already know what Melky can do. They are still in the learning stages with Gardner.
And let’s not forget, when Melky was thrown into it, he was able to play through his mistakes and missteps because the Yankees had no one else to play at that time due to injury.
You have to give a player time (and 50 AB’s isn’t “time”) to see if he can help you.
While some have put Melky’s 2008 season in the rearview mirror, the Yankees haven’t. You can’t wipe out 4 horrible months of baseball in 23 AB’s.
If he keeps it up, he will play more. Especially if Gardner can’t get the job done.
===================================================
But that’s exactly the point: the Yankees “had no one else.” They have Cabrera.
If the Yankees are determined to make Gardner their CF until Jackson is ready, fine.
Send him down and let him fine-tune his game enough so that his speed can actually be a factor rather than the abstraction it currently is.
If the Yankees had been alert, Cabrera would still have an option. He’s not a 30 year old career pinch hitter. He is not going to be successful coming off the bench. He needs to continue to work on his hitting; he’s 24 years old and, and like Gardner, continues to be a work-in-progress.
If they want him as strictly a bench player, they can get someone better at that role somewhere else. If they have closed the door on this guy, they should trade him.
If Melky is no better than a 4th OF, then Gardner is no better than a 5th OF. Pick your poison. AJAX can’t get to NY fast enough.
Boston Dave
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:24 pm
bod,
we get it. You love Melky.
===============
By the way, continuing to accuse a poster of basing their argument on “love” of a player, when the poster provides statistical support, reflects on your own lack of credibility.
How about supplying some numbers to back YOUR argument, instead of taking blind swings at me?
Gotta say
Melky will turn out to be a great Center Fielder! I have been saying this all along and think Brett is a good 4th outfielder. IF Melky can bat 280 hit 154-20 and bat in 80-90 he’s gold for the yanks. He’s a year younger than Gardner and as good a defender. I just hope the Yanks give him a chance
Slu
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:58 pm
If Melky is no better than a 4th OF, then Gardner is no better than a 5th OF. Pick your poison. AJAX can’t get to NY fast enough.
===================================================
The difference is, Melky isn’t performing like a 4th outfielder right now. Gardner IS performing like a 5th outfielder.
Jackson has been remarkable in changing his plate discipline in a single year. It’s like night and day. He really wants to be a legitimate hitter, and is on his way to sticking it to the people who pejoratively called him “toolsy.”
Within the AJax context, maybe Melky Cabrera could be a productive 4th OF, or, if he can produce at a medium power level (which is what I think he legitimately has), maybe he can be the ED RF. We won’t know any of that if he comes in the 7th for defense, or for the occasional PH RH AB.
go yankees
“By the way, continuing to accuse a poster of basing their argument on “love” of a player, when the poster provides statistical support, reflects on your own lack of credibility.
How about supplying some numbers to back YOUR argument, instead of taking blind swings at me?”
I would say that basing your argument on 23 ABs, 8 of which are split between HRs and Strikeouts, is basing your argument on love. Melkys K/AB ratio, right now, is the same as Gardners, and Gardner is facing major league starting pitching.
“rconn23 April 23rd, 2009 at 11:52 am
Saying Melky Cabrera should be the starting CF because of 23 at-bats in April is absurd.
It’s a pretty safe bet Cabrera won’t be slugging .826 by the end of the season. Call it a hunch.
He’s played 428 games in the majors. The chances of him suddenly morphing into Bernie Williams are just not likely.
This whole Gardner vs. Melky debate is tedious. Both, up until this point, have proven to be marginal major leaguers. The only difference is that Gardner’s performance is from a much smaller sample size – 57 games.
While I agree with Pete that Gardner has a bit of a higher ceiling than Melky, the competition between the two of them can only help the team.
It’s illogical to root against either one of them.”
hmmm…
Bernie Williams career stats:
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/histo.....rID=124288
Melky Cabrera:
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/indiv.....rID=466320
And what about Bernie Williams first few years tells you that Melky can’t possibly morph into him?
Cause it seems to me like there’s a good chance Melky could be that type of player if he continues to develop.
You never know what can happen with a player – especially someone that young who has the talents that Melky has. Give him a chance to prove that he can be Bernie Williams.
Brett Gardner certainly can’t.
“rconn23 April 23rd, 2009 at 11:52 am
Saying Melky Cabrera should be the starting CF because of 23 at-bats in April is absurd.
It’s a pretty safe bet Cabrera won’t be slugging .826 by the end of the season. Call it a hunch.
He’s played 428 games in the majors. The chances of him suddenly morphing into Bernie Williams are just not likely.
This whole Gardner vs. Melky debate is tedious. Both, up until this point, have proven to be marginal major leaguers. The only difference is that Gardner’s performance is from a much smaller sample size – 57 games.
While I agree with Pete that Gardner has a bit of a higher ceiling than Melky, the competition between the two of them can only help the team.
It’s illogical to root against either one of them.”
hmmm…
Bernie Williams career stats:
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/histo.....rID=124288
Melky Cabrera:
mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=466320
And what about Bernie Williams first few years tells you that Melky can’t possibly morph into him?
Cause it seems to me like there’s a good chance Melky could be that type of player if he continues to develop.
You never know what can happen with a player – especially someone that young who has the talents that Melky has. Give him a chance to prove that he can be Bernie Williams.
Brett Gardner certainly can’t.
“If the Yankees don’t have an acceptable CF on the roster now, Brian Cashman can go get somebody like Mike Cameron.”
If you’re going to trade for Mike Cameron bring up Ajax. Mike cameron is awful. Gardner needs to learn from the other speedsters in the game, HIT GROUND BALLS. Gardner’s problem right now, he’s popping up way too many pitches. A signle for Gardner gets him to 2nd 3 pitches later.
As for Joba:
And Joba better brush Big Sloppy back. Is he afraid that he won’t get a pitch right down the middle so he can appear to be the hero? This isn’t Tom Gordon!
It’s not about patience, it’s about what’s obvious.
Gardner’s swing is awful. He’s not using his legs at all and he’s uppercutting almost every pitch. That’s a prescription for a lot of weak pops ups and missed swings.
So, let’s get real. Right now, Gardner is not a MLer.
If reality matters, Melky needs to start.
Hmm, Melky is younger than Gardner. Made the bigs and held his own at a much younger age, is currently OPSing 1.211 should sit for an older player, who has yet to gain traction in the major leagues and is currently OPSing .572, which is 47% below average. What exactly do the Yanks owe Gardner that they should play him over a player who is playing so much better than he is or has in the majors? The answer is NOTHING. You play the hot guy over the below replacement level player every time.
From Keith Law’s ESPN Blog today:
Jeff (NYC): Gun to your head — Gardner or Melky? Both have been OK so far. Does A-Jax sniff the majors this year?
Keith Law: (2:10 PM ET ) Melky. Probably yes.
While I don’t always agree with K-Law’s assessments, he is right on this one.
I just don’t think Gardner will be anything more than a singles hitter, unless he improves.
But what other options do the Yankees have, they can’t rush A-Jax and Melky is what he is.
Once A-Rod comes back, and also X-Man, you can play only one of Gardner/Melky and it won’t hurt the rest of the lineup.
Dustin Pedroia’s first 98 PA’s: .191/.258/.303
Brett Gardner’s first 196 PA’s: .232/.283/.299
Point is: Give Gardner some time!!! It is totally unfair to evaluate him after only 200 PA’s scattered over two seasons. Let him play regularly for a month or so and see what we have.
Melky’s problem is one of motivation. Gardner’s is one of talent. Girardi turned Cano around, and it seems he (or somebody) has turned Melky around. No question now that Melky should be the starting CF. And he should remain so unless he starts flagging again.
Gardner is a glorified pinch runner/late-inning defensive substitution. The guy just can’t handle major-league pitching.
Shred Em,
Patience with a player whose hitting mechanics won’t allow him to be effective? Are you kidding?
Oh my god, the season’s nine percent over already??
the yankees are 9-6 without arod — they might be 12-3 without wang
given that the offense has been able to put up enough runs in every game save – the cleveland fisco playing melky and gardner every day would be a usefull way to let them breathe and show what they can d0–
it is just a huge thing to know you are in the lineup
dh damon – sit matsui or swap them —
seriously consider swisher at 3b — to keep both damon and matsui in lineup
do these things before arod comes back and build the knowledge for whay is needed going foward –