Have you seen this man?
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Apr 27, 2009 
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This is Steven Jackson, a right-handed pitcher. He joined the Yankees on April 19 and has been on the roster for seven games.
He has yet to pitch, however, despite other members of the bullpen displaying varying levels of ineptness.
If you have seen Jackson, contact Joe Girardi immediately at 1-800-CREW-CUT.
hahahahhahahahahah
“1-800-CREW-CUT”
Hilarious.
I don’t get it.
Why are you awake… it’s only been like 3.5 hours. Go back to bed!!!
Peter Gammons said on The Herd today that Joba Chamberlain would end up being back in the pen very soon. Unless and I quote Mel Anne Kon can be ok for them. What a joke he is.
Pete you better put out that APB fast because he goes down tomorrow when Hughes is up for the start.
Well if the pen continues to perform the way it has been lately, that it not as outrageous as it seemed, say 2 months ago.
Man the pen is taxed! CC needs to go deep win or lose tonight.
Confirmed swine flu outbreak in Queens (29 @ St. Francis Prep School). Stay safe everyone.
you are so witty peter abraham. love it
Nothing you blog the rest of the day will top that! Thanks for the smile…
witty
He comes after Swisher on the Depth Chart of RP’s.
Francessa on – This should be fun.
As expected, comparing the state of the 2 franchises post 04.
haha!
The team just went through the motions last night. How do you get shut down by Hunter Jones (who?), Bowden, and Saito (5.06 ERA)?
Andy pitched his heart out (AJ can learn a thing or two) and the offense fell asleep.
When we pitch, we don’t hit, when we hit, we don’t pitch. When we hit and pitch, the bullpen blows up. Not characteristics of a championship team.
Francessa sounds like a jackass right now.
Mike is right – Yesterday’s loss epitomized what we have become and what the Sox have become.
We spent $423 million and they just scrap together pitchers and make it work better. Their young players and worlds better than ours.
Nothing Francesa is saying is wrong
This is painful to listen to though
Sox were laughing at us. And Andy didn’t even put Ellsbury on his back.
you have to think that Jackson is on his way down tomorrow when Hughes is called up..
It’s a shame that he hasn’t got any work in at the big league level yet, i thought that everytime Eddie has come in lately would have been a nice time to use Steven..just to mix it up a little!
Why not?
Jackson could probably outperform Veras, Edwar, Marte, Albaladejo etc.
Not listening to Mike – I don’t care what he has to say. Let him panic and freak out.
Jackson probably gets farmed back to Scranton when Hughes comes up. A full week of being Moonlight Graham. Might be a record
Why would they not use him with a depleted bullpen?
Odd.
Ruining Joba’s career hahahahahahaha
2 runs in 6 innings but no we should keep him in the bullpen for the 16-11 game
what a jack@$$
Jackson was warming up yesterday, and would likely have pitched if Melancon hadn’t gotten through his first inning in 5 pitches.
Sheesh, we get it AJ blew a game – now he doesn’t have any heart? I love how we judge players on a game to game basis or pitchers on a start to start basis.
i agree with VERY WORD that Francesa is saying!!!
FRANCESA is KILLING THE YANKS
Mike is spot on about the young players and how Theo has owned Cashman in every facet. Nobody, nobody can deny that.
Though he did admit they got lucky (missed out on A-Rod/Teixeria, Schilling should have come here etc.) but their organization design is conducive to luck because they are run so well.
Because they already scarred Claggett?
Just put Joba in the bullpen when we visit Fenway. Back to the rotation when we leave town.
OK, its still April and we were playing in Boston.
Game 1…Rivera is the only person to blame for that loss. He didn’t do his job. He isn’t perfect and will fail periodically.
Second game, AJ screwed the pooch when he had a 6 run cushion and this game proceeded to exploit our weak bullpen.
Third game, the offense decided to sleep in.
But again, its April and this series was played in Boston. A-Rod is back in a week and if you guys don’t think the rotation will pick itself up, you’re crazy.
Personally, I’m excited to see Hughes tomorrow. Perhaps we’ll have something to cheer about. I think these spot starts are going to be big for Hughes. If he is successful, he’ll stick around, but if he gets shelled, he will become immediate trade bait. I hope its the former.
We’ll see Jackson tonight, no way his first game should be in Fenway.
JOBA TO PEN HUGHES N WANG START
M,
The only times that Joba has been good is when he’s pitched in Fenway!
Give me Theo over Cashman any day of the week. This is a young man’s game now. Whatever they’re doing behind the scenes in Boston has worked, and what we’ve been doing hasn’t. Cashman just blows money like a psycho. No matter how much we spend, it comes back to bite us in the ass. So frustrating…
He’s right. Why does every young pitcher they bring up turn to gold and all of ours flop?
Why does every move they make turn out well and every move we make doesn’t?
Also, he was 100% right on Girardi. No move he makes will be right. If he walks Bay, Lowell will get a big hit. If he pitches to Bay, he will get a big hit. If he brings in a lefty to face a Drew, Drew will get a hit. Can’t manage when they have winning, clutch players throughout their lineup. No move he made would have worked,.
someone didn’t have their triple bacon cheeseburger for breakfast
get that man a 2L of Diet Coke
Yeah, but can he hold a runner on third?
as a Starter i mean
“1-800-CREW-CUT”
I needed that laugh
Thanks Pete…
GOD that homer off MO was as big as it gets. We win that game its a different story
Francessa isin’t panicking or overreacting. He is actually echoing what SJ said in the previous thread.
If you can’t see the state of the two franchises now, you’re delusional. No point in trying to deny what the Sox have become— thats what we are striving for.
Francesa unleashing his wrath
The fat man is spot on today. the yankee troubles start in the front office and that funnels down to the product on the field. I was always against his ‘joba to the pen’ complaints but i am starting to warm up to the idea.
Mad Prince. We have to stop making excuses. A slow start at the beginning of last year caused us to miss the playoffs. And I have a feeling the same thing is brewing this year. Every game in April counts just as much as it does in September.
They brought in no name pitchers against us and shut us down. We bring in our guys against them and get absolutely lit up. Something is wrong. I don’t know what it is, but its not my job to figure it out.
Oooh, I’m so glad I’m not listening to Mike Fatcessa right now. His Svengali-like allure might turn me into a Red Sox fan.
If we won those first 2 games, he’d be singing a different tune. Whatever. Yeah, AJ lost the lead and then some, but we got the lead back. There’s plenty of blame to go around, but it’s not very productive. Still not a fan of the IBB in that bandbox.
AJ has to pick up the team in game 2
If he just did his job for $82 million, this wouldn’t even be an issue. We escape with one win from Fenway and look to move on
Now it has turned into chaos. About everything imaginable that could have gone wrong, went wrong. Injuries and all
Mike is hitting the highlights for 2009 but when he says since 2004, he forgets how smart Theo was and how resilient and deep the Sox looked in August 2006.
They were about as prepared to deal with injuries then as the Yankees were this weekend.
sorry didn’t see the new thread…
SJ,
I’ve seen many pieces on how hitting with RISP is random in that sense that on average a player will tend to hit with RISP as he does in other situations as well.
On the whole that is true.
I also believe that there are contagion effects inside of organizations that can systematically bias them from that pure random behavior.
The question is whether this is happening with the yankees and if that’s why they’re not hitting with RISP?
To some extent i think it is. They are too often completely white knuckles up at the plate with men on base.
One of the players this is most obvious in is Melky. Look at this second or third at bat and his last against Saito. The difference was amazing.
Why is that? Well if you want to talk about culture then the primary issue is that the team lives in an absurd bubble of expectation year in and out and every year they don’t win it all that just grows the next year.
Charging 2600/ seat doesn’t help the players. It makes the white knuckles worse.
Why has ARod’s life ostensibly turned into a zoo?
Why does this blog generate so many comments? It’s part passion and expectation.
And ultimately those kinds of issues don’t help the team. They make it harder. But this is NY and it is what it is.
So to me they need to break the game down into three parts – the parts that are random, the parts that have high variability and the parts that are most controllable.
They need to then focus on what is most controllable and make that the base. That’s the only way that things which are varying – like hitting with RISP – will get better.
Hitting is subject to random outcomes and inconsistency by its’ nature. Bull pens have high variability from year to year.
2 things in the game that are least prone to random behavior and high variability are starting pitching, defense and depth.
The defense is better this year – but better than awful has probably gotten them to mediocre.
You bring up the sox and how they deal with injuries – they have more depth in the minors for position players while also having good pitching depth. End of story. That’s why they can withstand injuries.
Fundamental problem with this team is that it has not produced enough young position players. Is that changing in the lower minors? What is a reasonable time frame for that to happen given the pre-2004 drought in talent? Hard to say.
So what does that leave us with – starting pitching.
For this group of guys, with this shared history, playing in this town the base absolutely, positively must be the starting pitching.
The key number for the yankees is 33. Each turn through the rotation they need the starters to give them at least 33 quality innings.
That is the best way for them to break this contagion of not hitting with RISP, to make up for limited depth and to make up for the defense.
They need to do everything possible to fortify that starting pitching.
That’s the one thing they can do that is most directly under their control and not subject to the random chance that makes baseball so maddening at times.
And the other thing they can do is to get Ransom/berroa out of the line up (what is girardi’s infatuation with them over pena…), get Alex back and trade for a CF.
and he is right, Andy should have put ellsbury on his fanny in his next at bat.
I found Steven Jackson.
He’s at voluntary spring camp for the Rams.
can’t disagree with fatcessa
painful, but spot on. it is not an overreaction to one series, it is a microcosm of what we have become just reinforced by this series.
Even if he’s right, does that mean the season’s over? Don’t even bother watching, even though you KNOW that the best team on paper, or even on the field, doesn’t always win.
RuhiKuz April 27th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Francessa sounds like a jackass right now.
What has Mike Been going off on today?
So much for the new Girardi mandate.
Ellsbury getting curtain calls and laughing with Francona on the top step of the dugout and not one Sox player goes down.
This series was a total embarrassment. We come out of this wounded and embarrassed.
With Hughes and Joba pitching the next 2 games, I guarantee we will see Steven Jackson.
haha thats funny. When you call Girardi please tell him where you can find a “Baseball for Dummies” book and a “How to manage for Dummies”. I dont care if its only 18 games in we had all last year and these 18 games and this guy is horrible. If you watch the games I hope you get it because I have a lot to say why hes horrible and dont wanna write it. lol
06 was an eternity ago. Look at their pitching – David Wells? Clement? A rookie Lester? 5 ERA Beckett? David Pauley? Jason Johnson?
Different teams. Since then, they have won another WS and went to a game 7 ALCS and have produced a plethora of young players.
And BTW, after that series, the reaction was the same except it was the Yankees were the great ones and the Sox had all these issues.
The problem is that the yankees are rushing their talent..
Hughes pitched last year right out of the gate…and that should have nener happened…lets get real the guy hasn’t pitched a full season at AAA yet!!
Same with IPK to a degree!!
Are they screwing Joba up?? I don’ think so..but i wouldn’t be heart broken if the move him back to the bullpen!
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if A-Jax is up by July!!!
B/c they just don’t know what they are doing!
“He has been on the roster for seven games.
He has yet to pitch, however, despite other members of the bullpen displaying varying levels of ineptness.”
LOL, this just sums up what a freakshow this team has become, you have a guy called up from the minors, the bench is short, we have a hack playing at 3b, who took over for a hack who was placed on the 60 day DL, a rotation with an “ace” pitching like anything but one, an offense that can’t hit with men in scoring position, a bullpen that is just horrid to look at but hey we have a brand new stadium and supposedly this is a World Series capable team right, I bet it is. (:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,518112,00.html
did you guys hear about this? thankfully I didn’t hear anything, I would have been out of this city any way I could.
Jobber was the only guy who gave us a chance to win in Fenway. 1 run in 5.2 innings. Not great, but a hell of a lot better than Burnett. Andy 6 IP, 4 ER – average.
A-Jax will not be up til september.
they will trade for a cf at some point, or get one off the scrap like edmonds. I was totally against cameron, but now it would appear i was wrong.
The real owner of 800-CREW-CUT will be wondering why he’s getting all these prank calls about Joe Girardi and Steven Jackson.
Not feeling this series at all.
CC still in April-mode facing the right handed power of Detroit (a team he has never done well against).
Hughes trying to get out that lineup with 2 pitches.
Joba throwing low 90s with no command
What a terrible matchup.
mike francessa = completely out of touch
new yorkers don’t want to talk about the yankees today. They want to talk about the draft. In particular, Mark Sanchez.
of course, King Francessa dosn’t care. And will talk about what HE wants to talk about. *click/off*
“they will trade for a cf at some point, or get one off the scrap like edmonds. I was totally against cameron, but now it would appear i was wrong.”
Join the club, compared to Melky and Gardner, Cameron looks like Joe Dimaggio now. The guy I am really disappointed in is Gardner I really expected this guy to be able to get on base and do things. Too bad for him you can’t steal first base. He has been a letdown since earning the job in Spring, I expected better from him sad to see how he has played.
M
Joba pitched pretty well apart from lasting only, what, 5 2/3?
Watch, by June he’ll be going 6-7 innings and walking less guys. This is a transition season for him…first full one in the rotation. Give him some time to adjust.
A bullpen of
Bruney-Melancon-Joba-Rivera
Would be killer.All games after 5-6 are OVAH
So wait… This team is without A-Rod, a slumping Tex, an imploding bullpen, their number 2 starter struggling, number one struggling and black holes at 3rd and CF and they are still at .500 through 18 games? People just need to relax. It is still early in the season and they aren’t clicking at all as a team, just imagine when they do. They are not going to be playing .500 baseball all season, sooner or later this team is going to click on all cylinders and things will come together. Boston series always get magnified just because they are the Sox but c’mon, things are just getting started for them. The Yankees will be fine.
The Sox got lucky missing out on Tex? Sorry, that’s just asinine. Wow – Mike is playing to his audience – an audience who wants to hear how terrible the Yankees are. He’s a fool.
Listened to him rant for about 15 minutes last night on Mike’d Up. Not about to listen to the same speech again.
many threads ago, m wrote: “I said that Joba doesn’t excite me.”
Yeah, that’s just what Brian the Passive Aggressive Red Sox fan said too. Were you two chatting about it on some Tom Brady board????
It’s hard to imagine why Joba wouldn’t excite a Yankee fan, knowing what he’s done and can do. If it’s solely about the here and now, I presume Phil Hughes doesn’t excite you either, yet I suspect that’s not the case. What gives?
CB,
I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
Here is where I’m coming from…..
I take Wang out of it because I don’t think we see him for awhile.
For the sake of discussion……
CC, AJ, Pettitte, Hughes, Kennedy or Aceves are the starters.
You have 3 guys capable of going deep and effective every start. The other two are wild cards. Well, welcome to what most teams, even the Red Sox, deal with every week. Three good starters, 2 guys whom you don’t know what they will do start to start.
Bullpen: Bruney (when he is back), Robertson, Melancon, Joba, Rivera from the right side.
Coke and Marte (stick with him because of his contract) from the left side.
You have 3 guys, Joba, Melancon and Robertson, capable of pitching multiple innings multiple times a week.
To me, that’s a better way to go IF, and its a BIG IF, Phil Hughes can deliver. If he can, then you roll the dice each turn with a fifth starter.
The problem as I see it is, innings are short among the starters right now and guys like Ramirez, Veras, Marte, etc simply aren’t good enough to pick up the slack.
The slack has to get picked up from somewhere.
I see what you are saying. You are saying it has to come from the starters.
I’m saying, if you have a weapon that gives the starters some breathing room, as Joba is, IMO, that also has to be on the table for consideration.
Not saying they have to do it today. I am saying though that if Hughes can get the job done, that plan should be considered sooner rather than later.
Using Joba in the way I would use him in the role would still get him at least 120 innings this year.
I’m sorry but the way this team is going right now…the way the team is being run right now..
To say that A-Jax will be held back till September is CRAZY TALK!!
THEY WILL NOT HAVE THE GUTS TO WAIT ON HIM!!!
Hear about it? Watched the whole freakin’ thing. What a joke that was, a jumbo jet flying low not much higher than skyscraper level unannounced with an F16 flying after it. When you haven’t a clue what was going on, I thought it was circling to take a nice charge at a building and was being chased by the F16. That was really fantastic. Made the whole Sox series seem not so bad for sure !!!!
Why bother to sign Tomko to sit him in the minors? He isn’t great, but then there was no point in signing him in the first place.
“A bullpen of
Bruney-Melancon-Joba-Rivera
Would be killer.All games after 5-6 are OVAH”
Problem with that Clint is they would need another starter along with Chien Ming Wang righting himself and that seems to be some ways off. If Hughes pitches well and Wang somehow corrects his issues then that would be terrific but that is some ways down the road from now. I wish that could be our pen.
This roster construction is all on Cashman. He has done an awful awful job.
That’s why King Francesser’s rant about how Theo has schooled him is spot on. You saw it manifest itself this weekend.
i dont really think girardi can take all the blame here. what does he have to work with?
he has 4 big time pitchers, and none are carrying this team late into games. same with joba, too many pitches. how can a bullpen succeed pitching 5 innings a day?
and because of that, we need more pitchers and have no bench.
its like torre in april 07, no help from starting pitching, overusing the pen, and no hitting although in 07 a -rod was tearing it up.
he will be back, nady will be back and cc and tex will come around, it will get better, hopefully we arent 14.5 out by june.
Dan, AJ has picked up the team more than our $160 million man has done…..and I hate bringing $$$ into it, but since you did…… It might be nice if CC provided at some innings tonight….and good ones, not 6 runs in 7 innings.
A ROD CAN HE SAVE US?
I don’t understand. There really has been no occasion to use Mr. Jackson. It’s not like they played a 14-inning game during that period.
Wait, never mind.
I’m not sure the rotation could withstand someone throwing at a Red Sox player – I mean – ejection, suspension. Sometimes it’s not opportune.
And you know what, that’s the sign of the weaker team, anyway. You can’t fight back on the field of play, so you throw at guys. Isn’t that what the Red Sox did when Pedro was there?
There is a time and a place for pitching inside and keeping hitters honest. That’s a far cry from throwing at someone because they stole home. Embarrassing for the Yankees? Sure, as it should be. Pettitte was warned by Posada to be on alert and he wasn’t. And it wasn’t a runaway game – the game was close. The steal of home lies in Pettitte’s lap, and from I read he took responsibility for it.
The RS young pitchers don’t enough of a track record to claim their young pitchers blossom while the Yankees flop.
Bucholtz has had as many issues as Hughes. Other then the no hitter which Hughes had going for him too a couple of years ago. He hasn’t flourished.
So what if Bowden looked good last night. I wasn’t impressed with his stuff. A straight 91 92 mph FB? We all know the Yankees struggle against pitchers they never seen before.
Watch those pitches next time they see Bowden again be souvenirs for the fans.
The lefty coming out of they pen (his name escapes me) was throwning 88 mph. Again another case of the Yankees not seeing him.
They did a great job in developing Lester and Paplebon. But did the Yankees not develop Wang and in the process Joba? Hughes?
Can Francessa explain how the game was over when Melancon came in last night so who knows what he is but Bowden pitched the same innings and he knows what he is?
If Wang didn’t turn into Dontrelle Willis, Joba to the pen would make all the sense in the world right now.
The bullpen ERA = Highest in majors.
Starters ERA = Highest in majors.
Atleast rectify one of them.
vinny-b,
Why doesn’t he talk about the Mets? If I’m not mistaken they’ve won 2 of their last 7.
Repost because I missed the jump to the new thread and thought you might talk about this load of nonsense from our old friend Kerrigan.
April 27th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Can’t read anymore until game time but before I head back to the books I wanted to throw out this quote from the Post. It’s talking about Ross… Ohlendorf:
” Kerrigan projects that “in three years, after he makes 60-70 starts, I see him as a top-of-the-rotation guy. A No. 1 or No. 2. He has the body with very thick legs and a strong upper half, the pitches and the intellect. He is a great kid.”
Boston loses Dice-K, 18 game winner and replace him with Masterson and win 10 in a row.
Their depth is just ridiculous.
Bowden and Hunter Jones come in and shut us down. If that were Robertson and Edwar, Boston scores 6 runs. Sums up where the franchises are now, respectively.
Big Dog,
Can Arod save us??
YES HE CAN!
JB
I only heard about it cause I read it on a message board. Luckily it wasn’t real. But it was very foolish of the government not to alert the public.
“The bullpen ERA = Highest in majors.
Starters ERA = Highest in majors.
Atleast rectify one of them.”
Wang issues or no Wang issues that is just an inexcusable stat for a team that had thought it addressed its pitching. Unbelievable.
“Give me Theo over Cashman any day of the week. This is a young man’s game now.”
WTF? This is the kind of nonsense (yes, you are entitled to your opinion. And I am entitled to my opinion regarding your opinion) that gets expressed after the first season series at Boston between the two teams?
There are I think 15 games left between NYY and The Sox, not to mention that it’s APRIL.
The Yankees have had an “injury” to a key starter, as well as their 3d baseman and RBI machine. They are now at the third player in their depth chart at third base, not to mention the (hopefully) temporary loss of Bruney, the set up guy. The Three Wang flameouts and two extra inning games have killed the ‘pen. The Sox are hot right now, but they won’t be hot all year.
But hey, if you think you can see how the season turns out based on the April games, more power to you.
random question but does anyone know whats up with Alan Horne? could he help us this year?
CC has a track record. He won the CY Young in 07 and carried the Brewers on his back last year. Had a 3.22 ERA in 2006 too.
What does AJ have a track record of? Killer arm with mediocre results and injuries in non-contract years?
You’re not going to win a CC vs. AJ battle…..
Betsy,
As far as Melancon making the team out ST, he was having a great ST until he got beat around by the Pirates. Big deal. A meaningless ST game cost him a roster spot. This, despite everybody in the organization predicting he was going to be the 8th inning guy by June.
Why? To save an arbitration year.
I don’t know, maybe its just me but, I’d like to see the best 25 guys on the roster. Enough with trying to be “cute”.
When you spend 423.5 million on 3 players this off-season, another 12 million on a gas can like Marte, PLUS another 275 million for Arod last off-season, you shouldn’t be worried about arbitration or trying to be cute with the roster.
Both Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera went through arbitration (the Yankees were 1-1 in the hearings) and things turned out ok.
Today’s baseball involved having roster flexibility. You need to utilize the entire roster. In a competitive division like the AL East, you concede nothing on the roster.
The Yankees have already made roster concessions that have cost them games this year. I’d just like to see the denials end, fix the problem, and go forward.
Yes, it would be a 180 to how the organization normally solves their problems. But, since their way doesn’t work and hasn’t worked for years, perhaps trying it another way isn’t a bad way to go.
“random question but does anyone know whats up with Alan Horne? could he help us this year?”
Isn’t he hurt, just lets hope he isn’t on his way to becoming Humberto “DL” Sanchez”
SJ44,
Joba in the bullpen is still a terrible idea. It will remain a terrible idea until we know for a fact that Joba can’t handle 200 innings.
Usually you are so even-keeled but this sounds like a big panic move IMO.
Youkallis, Pedroia, Lowrie, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Bowden, Masterson, Lester, Delcarmen, Bard, Buchholz
What do we have? Cano? Joba?
Red Sox just know how to build a team. Cashman knows how to spend money and tries to buy his way out of problems.
“another 12 million on a gas can like Marte”
Everytime I see him on the mound I just want to run up to him and slap him in the face along with Jose Vera$$. These two guys make my stomach churn to watch them on a MLB mound.
Lowrie, Bowden, Masterson, Bard have done nothing in the majors
“The bullpen ERA = Highest in majors.
Starters ERA = Highest in majors.
Atleast rectify one of them.”
Wang issues or no Wang issues that is just an inexcusable stat for a team that had thought it addressed its pitching. Unbelievable.
Wang ERA of 34.50!
Claggett’s ERA after the 24 run game is like 109.67!!
Marte ERA horrible!!
So it’s basically 2 or 3 guys that are making the stats look worse then they really are!
even if joba doesnt turn out to be an ace and becomes a solid number 3 guy thats still far more valuable than a late inning reliever
Dear CC: Please bring your A+ game tonight. Oh and can the Yankees offense remember how to get those RISP(if there are any) home.
Love,
All of us
Yeah, the strength was supposed to be the pitching and the bullpen. Not exactly as planned.
There is no formula for how we are winning games now. We’re flying by the seat of our pants basically.
And all of our losses have been either blowouts or heartbreaking. lose 6-4, lose 15-5, win 7-3, win 4-3, lose 10-1, win 6-5, lose 22-4, win 7-3. No consistency at all.
Oh so there is a long man on staff….
lol Joe Girardi. How can anyone defend this guy?
CC needs to pitch for his supper tonight. No more excuses. I don’t care that you don’t pitch well in April, that you can’t locate your fastball, that your mechanics are off, that it’s too cold or it’s too hot. Just take the ball and pitch and pitch well.
The bullpen is being asked to carry the team and it’s too much for them. The starting pitchers +Mo and the position players make up 95% of the payroll. They need to get it done.
“Dear CC: Please bring your A+ game tonight. Oh and can the Yankees offense remember how to get those RISP home.”
Good luck with that one as far as RISP, what do you want to bet they make Verlander look like he’s back and all the analysts will say what a great game he pitched against the Yankees and is back to establishing himself, heck Cliff Lee did.
Don’t all of our pitchers with the exception of Andy, Mariano, Bruney have more walks than strikeouts?
m: don’t know.
wouldn’t want to be his therapist.
switched his *** off.
I have no problem with Jackson not pitching yet. There hasn’t been a game since his callup that was ideal to put him in. Girardi made a mistake with another rookie by tossing Claggett into a game where the other team’s offense was on a roll. I don’t think that he wanted to burn another rookie that badly. The difference between Jackson, Claggett amd Melancon is huge. Jackson and Claggett, who should be pretty good relief pitchers are not on the same level as Melancon.
Cal – Horne is in Extended Spring Training. Working on arm strength but pitching multiple innings.
No setbacks and I would imagine he is in a game relatively soon.
SJ,
If you move Joba to the pen – if you make that decision to essentially put a major hit on his long term value to the club (he will yet again be on a considerable innings limit next year as you know if he’s in the pen again this year…) and move him to the pen – then i have a question?
What do you do if the starting staff has another injury? Which is invariably will.
Do you seriously try to switch joba back to the rotation yet again and just continue to screw him up?
Do you seriously take a chance on Kennedy again?
There’s simply no way. Hopefully Wang comes back fine. If he doesn’t then this discussion of Joba to the pen is completely moot.
But at the same time if Wang comes back fine, you slot Hughes in and move Joba to the pen and Wang or another starter gets hurt then you are in real trouble. Big trouble.
They would be much better off trying a pen of Mo, Bruney, Melancon, Robertson, Coke, Marte, and Ramirez/Albabledjo or Long man.
If I could I’d look to trade Veras/ Melky for an older CF. Cameron or Coco Crisp, etc.
But sending Joba to the pen does not address the primary root cause problem.
It only makes it worse.
You can’t keep screwing around with Joba. He has a once in a lifetime kind of arm.
Keep changing his role and you are going to turn him into Brandon Marrow.
If Hughes comes up, pitches well, and Wang returns, then I would consider using Hughes out of the pen as teams traditionally done with young pitchers in the past. Let him throw 2-3 innings at a time.
And I’d only do that if they really needed the help in the pen because the other options have failed.
If we are going to approach this thinking the staff is not going to pitch up to past performance then, no, there is no real way to make up for that barring a trade for Carlos Beltran.
I don’t think I have my pitch fork and torch out quite yet. I want to see how this team performs if they ever get healthy. A-Rod looming in the line-up and Wang pitching like 06-07 will help this team a lot.
Nick in SF,
Boy you are persistent. Everyone loves Joba. What’s the problem if I said he doesn’t excite me? What, I gotta like him because everyone else does?
I’ve never denigrated him, never said anything remotely bad about him.
I’m just an against-the-grain kind of person. So, I tend to cheer for the underdog. I also resist the efforts of the media telling me who I gotta like.
Like I told O-dog last night. I cheer for all the Yankees. I have my favorites, just like everyone else. But I try to be respectful of all the players, though I may not succeed all the time.
I like Joba well enough, he’s just not a favorite. Nothing wrong with that from where I stand (sit).
Yea… Girardi asked Burnett to choke away a 6 run lead.
Girardi is only playing the card he was dealt. Cashman constructed this roster.
“CC needs to pitch for his supper tonight. No more excuses. I don’t care that you don’t pitch well in April, that you can’t locate your fastball, that your mechanics are off, that it’s too cold or it’s too hot. Just take the ball and pitch and pitch well.”
LOL, tell me about it. maybe the Yankees shouldn’t deposit his checks in April either to his account, bet he wouldn’t like that would he. I’m sick of all the excuses. Guy needs to do his job that he is getting rewarded to do, which is be an ace that can stop losing streaks like Halladay, Santana, etc. Enough already about April and slow starter, how convenient.
Good luck with that one as far as RISP, what do you want to bet they make Verlander look like he’s back and all the analysts will say what a great game he pitched against the Yankees and is back to establishing himself, heck Cliff Lee did.
==================================
I wouldn’t be surprised if that did indeed happen.
Is it 7:05pm EST yet? Let’s get this game going already!
How bad does the Nady/Marte trade look?
Man, Cashman has been totally exposed these past couple of years by Epstein.
Dan,
The only thing that matters re: CC vs. AJ is their performances with the Yankees.
We’re all hoping for the best for both of them. But track record don’t mean spit when you come to the Yankees. It’s what you do in pinstripes that matters.
No one’s judging CC, but people shouldn’t judge AJ yet. Especially 18 games into the season.
Jeff D
Add up the number of players on the Yankees and Sox rosters of players who came through the minors in their own organizations. The numbers might surprise you.
First thing, I don’t think the Red Sox are miles and miles ahead of the Yanks like SJ and Francessa are saying and a 3 game series in April isn’t going to change that.
Also, SJ what 3 games did the Yanks lose because Pena wasn’t at 3rd. You’ve said it like a dozen times and matter of factly like it’s set in stone the Yanks would’ve won if Pena was there. I agree they would’ve had a better chance at winning a few games, but to say they would have won 3 more is a bit much.
“They would be much better off trying a pen of Mo, Bruney, Melancon, Robertson, Coke, Marte, and Ramirez/Albabledjo or Long man.
If I could I’d look to trade Veras/ Melky for an older CF. Cameron or Coco Crisp, etc.”
You make a decent point, the Yankees seriously ought to look into getting something for Vera$$ if they can by packaging him to maybe get someone like Cameron. I was against Cameron originally but fair to say Gardner and his disgusting OBP and Melky and his horrid plate discipline has left me scratching my head as to what I saw in these guys to originally not wanted Cameron around. I think I got carried away with Gardner, thinking he could really be a nice gritty hitter, problem is he can’t reach first base. He would make a nice pinch runner though.
I don’t see how its a big panic move Patrick.
The bullpen stinks. They have to find a way to win games with their existing flaws and Joba, if used properly, is a big weapon.
We won’t know if Joba can handle 200 innings until 2011.
Do you really believe the Yankees are going to wait until 2011 to find out if Joba can handle 200 inning workloads?
I don’t think you need to wait that long if a few things occur.
If Hughes can handle a spot in the rotation, Wang can come back and give them something (or Aceves or Kennedy for that matter) and the bullpen continues to struggle.
Obviously, if the above doesn’t take place, Joba is going to stay in the rotation.
But, if those things take place, I think Joba is back in the ‘pen to stay (to eventually replace Mo as the closer) by June.
I say this for several reasons. One, if Mo were to get hurt, or wasn’t ready to close to start the year, they were going to make Joba the closer.
Two, the fact they are even talking about it (and they are talking about it), tells me that Joba going to the bullpen is more of a frontburner idea than they are letting on.
They just have to see if other guys can pick the slack in the rotation before making a a decision on him.
Want to make a statement? Sweep Detroit.
Then we come home for 4 with the Angels, 2 each with Boston and Tampa. Then the AL East leading Blue Jays and Baltimore who owns us early in the season. Towards the end of the month, Minnesota and Philly come in, before we head out to Cleveland/Texas who can mash the ball.
By the way it looks, things will get a lot worse before it gets better.
Cashman made the roster..Girardi controls the players.
The players are not preforming! You really can’t dump the players!
If all the kids in the class get an “F” on the final exam…you can’t kick all the kids out of the school. So what do you do??…FIRE THE TEACHER!
m
Your “pets” are obvious but you ARE generally supportive.
The one decision that cost us the most is the decision to not carry a long man. The first time Wang imploded they should have made that move. They knew Joba wasn’t going to be throwing 6-7 innings every time anyway.
Once Wang went 1 inning, the bullpen got overused since none of them are capable of 5-6 innings. When it happened again, and then again, it was like a note…to a shout…to a scream…saying…HEY! Get someone up here already!
No one wants to see Aceves throw 4-5 innings every 5th day but he needs to be here because apparently, we need it.
Short starts + no long man = an overtaxed bullpen = lots of 15 run games.
CB,
I think if Joba would be moved back to the bullpen, he would be there to stay for the rest of his career. He would be groomed as Mariano’s replacement and that would be his long term role.
Melancon and Joba would be the future back end of the Yankee bullpen.
I don’t believe he would be moved back again into the starting rotation if he were to ever go back to the ‘pen.
What would they do if there were injuries? Kennedy, Aceves, maybe Tomko for this season, etc.
The future? That’s where a guy like Zach McAllister comes in.
I’m not saying, “do it and do it now”.
I’m saying that, if the issues they have continue, they are going to have to do it and it will be the final move for him.
In some ways, its analagous to Papelbon’s situation. The only difference is, Joba is healthier than Papelbon.
The concept though, is not a new one.
Bullpens fluctuate from year to year, even with the same guys.
Just because this group had success last year, doesn’t mean they will this year. That’s why it is flawed when people keep referencing last year’s pen stats as a way to say the pen will be fine this year.
That’s not how bullpens work in baseball. What I do know is that we can’t just keep waiting for Marte, Veras, Albie, Robertson, Edwar etc. to pitch like they did last year, and lose games in the process. We lost 2 all of last year when leading after 7. We already lose 3 this year and the bullpen has recorded 4 of our 9 losses.
7 UP
How about getting Lidle and Bobby for garbage?
If Theo Epstein had been the Yankee G.M. for the last five years, with over 1 billion at his disposal to spend on the roster, do you think this team would have a legit CF & bullpen.
Rhetorical question.
We were winning two of the Boston games as late as the eighth inning.
Mo blew 1 save last year. He blew one on Friday. Saturday the bullpen was depleted and couldn’t hold several leads.
So, no, I don’t see how this proves the Red Sox are clearly better.
They beat us fair and square, no doubt, but we were in all 3 games. If you’re the Yanks, you just lick your wounds and move on.
How many times can people post about the Nady/Marte trade? What, exactly, did the Yankees lose out on that’s so upsetting? Tabata is a certified head case still in AA, who knows if he makes it to the majors. Ohlendorf and Karstens aren’t better than Kennedy, Hughes, Coke, Aceves, McAllister, Betances or a multitude of other pitchers in the Yankees’ system. Marte and Nady brought a lot to the table last year, and they will be a part of the team this year like it or not.
Stop beating the dead horse already. There are no do-overs, and I love how Cashman pulling the trigger on a trade that a) didn’t involve giving up a king’s ransom and b) filled two holes that last year and this year’s team has/had is looked at as some nightmare because Nady is currently hurt and Marte’s ERA is at 15 right now. His ERA will not be at 15 when the year ends, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s down to respectability in a month. Bullpen arms are volatile but this idea that Marte is complete garbage and can’t get anyone out in the majors is hilarious.
Girardi is becoming Torre, bit by bit
The yankees very well could set up the pen as following:
Mo – closer
Bruney – set up
Melancon – middle relief/ set up when bruney needs a rest
Coke – middle relief/ part set up to get out 8th inning lefties
Robertson – middle
Marte – situational middle
Hughes – long relief/ swing man – he will get regular innings on the days Joba is throwing.
Would that bull pen not be a very good one?
You would still have Ramirez, Albaladejo, and Jackson in the minors.
They have solutions for the pen.
But those solutions are contingent on the starting pitching being better.
The pen was a disaster last april – a disaster. Worse than this year because of Kennedy and Hughes.
For the rest of the season it was arguably the best in baseball.
Wang has essentially filled the role of Kennedy and/or hughes so the pen is bad again.
They need length. Until they get that the pen, like all pens, will be bad.
SJ,
I think the one “IF” statement you made that is at the forefront too is whether Hughes can be successful consistently.
As I said in an earlier post, I think these spot starts are going to be big for him in beginning to determine that. Until I see that success, Joba has to stay in the rotation.
Forget about Wang for now, that guy has some issues that need to be corrected. He’s out for presumably 2 weeks so that should be roughly three starts for Hughes to prove himself in.
If Hughes pans out and pitches well, then maybe you entertain Joba to the pen if the pen is still as atrocious as it presently is.
Joba to the pen right now is a bad idea. You can’t keep telling a guy one thing then flipping the switch and having him do the complete opposite. That is what will get him injured.
If you have an open mind, SJ’s suggestion makes all the sense in the world.
All depends if we want to win this year or not. How much longer can they go with this erratic bullpen?
3 game sweep even has SJ44 quacking in boots. My God. Look at all the people jumping off the bridge. And I thought SJ44 was the supposed voice of reason on this blog. He is shaking with fear so badly that even he has jumped on the Joba to the bullpen bandwagon. Unbelievable how a three game series against Boston brings out the irrational behavior in some fans.
Well, it does seem like deja vu, except Wang was the black hole instead of Hughes/IPK.
The difference is that we have Tex instead of Giambi and CC/AJ over Rasner/Ponson.
Last season, we didn’t get to 2 games over .500 and stay there until June, people. June.
It was miraculous what Girardi/Eiland/Mo/Molina did with Edwar and Veras last season. But the truth is they are what they are. Maybe Robertson and Melancon replacing them can make some difference.
Fran is saying how Ellsbury and the Sox showed up Andy.
Not by the steal itself but how they conducted themselves after. Curtain call, laughter etc.
I like the idea of Hughes in the pen. Problem is, you are forgoing his development of the change up. He isin’t going to work on it in game situations unless the game is out of hand.
LA did this with Billingsly for a yr and it worked out well. But you have to be able to use Hughes in multiple roles.
Not a problem at all, m, I just found it curious since Joba is almost universally considered one of the most exciting young players in baseball and especially on the Yanks.
When Brian the PA Red Sox fan said it, he was denigrating Joba and trying to rile things up here.
Maybe this is one of those things that I’ll never understand.
After these past three games, I simply was afraid to read any blogging or newspapers … but that was a good one Pete … thanks.
What if Bruney’s shoulder problem is lingering?
“Not by the steal itself but how they conducted themselves after. Curtain call, laughter etc.”
Having watched Yankees do the curtain call thing for meaningless homeruns for years now, I’ve got no issue with that.
If, however, they were laughing at the Yankees, that’s an action that may call for a heater in the ribs next week.
“I think if Joba would be moved back to the bullpen, he would be there to stay for the rest of his career. ”
Well then moving him to the pen for short term gain in 2009 would be one of the worst strategic moves in franchise history.
Nothing new there. The two of us must have discussed how badly that would hurt the franchise dozens and dozens of times.
Why is Joba Chamberlain the only young pitcher in the game who must “prove” he can throw 200 inning before he is given a chance to stay out of the pen?
Every other young pitcher in the game is only sent to the pen if he empirically is given the test.
But only for Joba it seems that an argument is made that he shouldn’t even be allowed to try?
Before we discussed this franchises inability to develop young players and how that gives the Sox such a big advantage.
Don’t you think relegating Joba to the pen would be the absolute epitome of not developing players? Of not maximizing the value of an asset?
And again – they have options in the pen. They have far fewer for the rotation, especially if you take joba out of it.
SJ44,
It is a huge panic move for a few reasons.
First of all, the biggest problem with the team right now is bad starting pitching. You propose we weaken the weakest part of the team to help out the bullpen? Insanity.
The bullpen depth the Yankees have in the minors is amazing. The Yanks have a lot of excellent young relievers that can step in and do well. You saw that last night with Melancon. Joba is like a security blanket. We know he is good in the bullpen so at the first sign of trouble the first idea is to throw him back in there. It is a much better idea to explore the options that are already there.
Veras, Albaladejo, Ramirez and Marte have proven themselves to be unreliable. Unfortunately we are stuck with Marte but the other three guys are replaceable. Melancon and Robertson are ready for big roles RIGHT NOW. There is no need for Joba in the bullpen until all options are exhausted.
The bullpen should be: Rivera, Bruney (when healthy), Melancon, Robertson, Marte, Coke, Aceves
“Do you really believe the Yankees are going to wait until 2011 to find out if Joba can handle 200 inning workloads?”
Yes I do believe they will wait.
There is no way you can convince me that having CC, AJ, Pettitte, Hughes and Kennedy/Aceves in the rotation with Joba in the pen is better than CC, AJ, Pettitte, Joba and Hughes (with Kennedy/Aceves as Hughes back-up) in the rotation without Joba in the pen.
Having both Hughes and either Kennedy or Aceves in the rotation at the same time is asking for trouble. Just ask randy I if you don’t believe me!
It is way too soon to worry about the pitching, although it has stunk so far. I agree that CC has not looked good in 3 out his 4 starts, Joba has not pitched the way most of us think he is capable of, and Wang, well, you know. But had we gone into the year with a CC, AJ, Pettitte, Joba and Hughes rotation I would have taken my chances, and I still would.
By the way, a number of posters insisted back in January and February that Hughes needed to go to AAA and be left there all season to “develop” (like he was a film negative, or something), but now some of these same posters are leading the charge to install him as our fourth starter after only 18 games of the season. 18 games is too soon to change your mind, guys.
Finally, the bullpen has stunk, agreed, but it doesn’t stink, if by that people mean there is no talent there. There is plenty of talent in it. Bullpens are inconsistent by nature and it is too soon to declare it a disaster.
OK, everyone, please settle down.
AJ and CC are going to be just fine. A-Rod is back soon (and yes, the circus too, I know), Hughes is going to fill in for Wang, and Melancon should add at least some stability to the pen.
Its a LOOOONNNNGGG season fellas. The Yankees will be just fine.
AD
April 27th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Give me Theo over Cashman any day of the week. This is a young man’s game now. Whatever they’re doing behind the scenes in Boston has worked, and what we’ve been doing hasn’t. Cashman just blows money like a psycho. No matter how much we spend, it comes back to bite us in the ass. So frustrating…
————————-
One of the things I’ve read frequently is how some thing the Sox front office are too “ruthless” (for lack of a better word) with their former players…Pedro/Lowe/Damon etc. Would you rather the Yanks follow this philosophy or no? They gave Mo an extension (last Friday’s performance aside, he’s still dominant). They extended Posada (he still produces but who knows where he’ll be in three years). Then there’s Jeter.
If you’re running the Yanks, what do you do with Jeter when his contract is up?
Melancon isin’t available tonight probably
Bruney still out for 2 weeks
This bullpen is going to be a huge issue short term. CC needs to pitch a complete game
Mr. Faded Glory
April 27th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Girardi is becoming Torre, bit by bit
——————————-
i wish he would.
“I like the idea of Hughes in the pen. Problem is, you are forgoing his development of the change up. He isin’t going to work on it in game situations unless the game is out of hand.”
That depends on the context.
If they keep Hughes in the rotation all year and say send Joba to the pen, how often do you think Hughes will throw his change up anyway?
Not often.
The development of Hughes’ change up is much more dependent on whether they decide to keep him in the minors vs. majors.
That’s the key variable. Much more so than if he’s a starter vs. swing man in the majors.
The bullpen is strugling because guys who normally just thrown an inning have had to throw 40-50 pitches in one outing. WE NEED A LONG-MAN. THERE WILL BE DAYS WHERE THE STARTER JUST DOESN’T HAVE IT.
Bullpen:
CL Rivera
8th Bruney
7th Melancoln
7th/8th Marte
MRP Albaladejo/Ramerez/Robertson
MRP Coke
LRP Aceves/Tomko/Johnson/Kennedy
Veras stays up here until Bruney gets back from the D:. Then u DFA/Trade him.
If there are two more stubborn people on this planet than Joe Girardi or Brian Cashman, point them out to me.
Hideki Matsui looked like an 80-year-old man starting the season (w/comparable bat speed), yet Girardi insisted on batting him cleanup. Just one of a myriad of possible examples.
You expect these hard-headed people to suddenly reverse course on Joba? NEVER, NEVER happening.
CB,
You’ve got some good stuff today. The only disagreement I have is Hughes in the bullpen. He’d be a nice weapon as a long reliever, like how he was used in the ALDS vs Cleveland. However the only problem is getting him enough innings. He’s been injured for the past two seasons and needs consistent innings so he can continue developing as a starter. Putting him in the bullpen could have some bad long-term effects.
M, that’s what I’m saying…..and AJ has been very good in 3 out of his 4 starts. We get that he did a bad job in Boston, but to go back and now say that he’s mediocre garbage and that his prior starts weren’t important is unfair. He stopped 3 losing streaks – look, people should just go back to the game threads and read their own comments. Now he’s a dog? Ok – whatever floats the boats.
SJ44, I don’t know for sure why the Yankees kept Melancon down. Maybe they didn’t think he was having a great spring . He pitched at the end of games when the minor leaguers or scrubs were in.
I wonder if Hal is getting penny wise, pound foolish. The Yankees HAD to spend as much $$$ as they did just to catch up, but there were still holes. I don’t know why Cash didn’t do the Cameron deal – perhaps he knew that he had a chance for Tex if he didn’t complete it. That’s on Hal, who seems to have cut the budget off at a certain point. George would never care how much $$ he spent – he just wanted to win.
One thing that irritated me is how Ellsbury was talking about the steal home after the game. He called Pettitte ‘Andy’. Didn’t know that he knew Andy were friends.
Mr. Pettitte may be going to far, but at least call him “Pettitte”.
Uh..Pete 1-800-CREW-CUT is a porn number.
“What if Bruney’s shoulder problem is lingering?”
Bruney’s shoulder has as much of a chance to be “lingering” as A-Rod’s because neither has an issue with their shoulders.
“Girardi is becoming Torre, bit by bit”
If Girardi was truly becoming Torre, he’d find 2 or 3 guys in the bullpen and use them til their arms fell off. Sadly, I don’t think that’s such a bad idea anymore.
botched, too many changes in direction.
*Didn’t know that he and Andy were friends.
CB,
I agree RE: Joba/200 innings.
Why is THAT the focal point??? How about they focus on Joba giving them/not giving them quality starts consistently. If he isn’t doing that buy June or July, then maybe they start to re-evaluate him as a starter, but even that seems like an unfair opportunity.
Guys don’t just dominate consistently when they’re 23 years old. Doesn’t happen all that often.
They need to stick to their plan for 2009.
Joba in the rotation. Let’s see how Melancon does as the setup man. Perhaps he is the answer?
Light Marte on fire too.
If this bullpen was doing its job, this Joba thing wouldn’t even be an issue.
Bullpen has already recorded 4 of our 9 losses.
I do agree with SJ44 about the Pena thing. Berroa sucks at fielding and he sucks at the plate. At least Pena can field and has more speed than Berroa. Pena should have been the everyday 3B once A-rod went down.
The inconsistent pen needs a shakeup. A guy like Michael Dunn needs to get called up to SWB and given a shot. A power arm that can throw strikes. Valdez was moved to SWB yesterday and was lights out.
Wave Your Hat,
RE: Hughes coming to NY.
I think that a lot of those “development” comments were made operating under the assumption that our rotation would be set, 1 through 5.
That’s not the case. So, you go with your best AAA pitcher and Hughes appears to be that guy.
If our rotation was healthy 1 through 5, then yes, let Hughes get his consistent starts in AAA and ready him for 2010.
I’m not panicking at all. I am simply outlining various scenarios to see if it would improve the team.
I think everyone, except the most delusional in the fan base, believes this team needs to get better to make the playoffs. The issue is, how to do that?
Some of you want to spin that losing 3 in Boston is “no big deal”? I disagree.
HOW they lost is pretty much the way they have lost big games here since 2004. Its a problem.
Is Joba to the bullpen the solution to everything? Of course not.
What I’m saying is, given the current course of the team, its probably back on the table no matter what they are saying publicly.
The issue, a fair one at that is, where is Joba’s best spot for future success? As a starter or as Mo’s eventual replacement as Closer?
That’s it because if they ever moved him back, its permanent.
As far as them “waiting until 2011″ on Joba, Patrick, if they don’t make the playoffs, that will be the decision of the new GM, new manager and new coaching staff.
There is virtually a zero % chance everybody comes back if this team misses the playoffs again.
That unfortunately is also a factor in this decision.
Not an easy call.
Would be easier if guys performed up to their abilities. Absent that though, its an issue that is probably going to be addressed again this season.
One thing this season has made painfully obvious is that the Yanks need a long reliever. Now wouldn’t Joba be it?
They kept Melancon down because other guys are ahead of him. Veras, Albaladejo, Ramirez all have more big league experience and showed some promise last year. They needed a shot before the Yanks could dip into their bin of relief prospects. At this point I think Albaladejo and Veras have proven themselves unworthy. Robertson and Melancon are now with the big team and should be given a shot.
Patrick,
I’m not saying I’d do that – only saying it’s an option should the pen be an issue.
It is something to consider however a la billingsly.
Remeber he’s gong to get at least 4 more starts in place of wang. Hopefully that’ll be 27 or so innings. He’s already thrown around 18 in the minors.
If they make him a swing man he will get regular work given joba’s innings limit.
Between the swing man role and spot starts for Wang now and Joba later I think he’ll get his innings.
“and AJ has been very good in 3 out of his 4 starts.”
He was very good in 1 of his 4 starts. The Tampa game? He was superb. The 7 walk effort vs. Cleveland and his 1st start vs. Baltimore were good enough, but not what could be defined as very good. In general, he’s been pretty close to what I expected. Flashes of brilliance mixed with baffling inconsistency.
Girardi is going to burn out Melancon/Bruney because nobody else is any good.
Can you blame him? He has so much pressure to win. $423 million spent and we’re already in crisis mode, 18 games in.
Jerry Manual did the same thing last year.
Tony Pena will do the same thing if he replaced Girardi this year.
Mad Prince-
I don’t disagree with you, but I never thought Hughes need a season in AAA to begin with.
If you thought he did, Wang’s injury shouldn’t change your mind because chances always were very good that 1 of the original 5 starters would get hurt or have issues.
well w/ all this negativity and the lack of offense maybe A-ROD can getting a huge standing ovation during his first at bat at NYS…ofcourse until he gets called out on strikes then the boos return
SJ isin’t panicking. He is being realistic.
The bullpen stinks. No way to sugarcoat it. The team can’t get a clutch hit to save their lives.
I love how constructive criticism is seen as “panic” or “overreaction”.
SJ44,
Losing 3 in Boston sucks but it’s not a big deal. Rivera gets one more out and the Yanks win 1 out of 3 which is all they really needed.
“Guys don’t just dominate consistently when they’re 23 years old. Doesn’t happen all that often.”
If the criteria for a young starter being inserted into the yankees rotation were that he has to be ready to throw 200 innings right from the start well then the yankees would literally never have any home grown young pitching.
Never.
So if that’s the reason why they should move Joba to the pen – he can’t throw 200 or even 180 innings now well then you better brace the franchise for an even bigger strategic sea change.
Because you are essentially writing off the possibility of having young pitching in the rotation ever.
“Girardi is going to burn out Melancon/Bruney because nobody else is any good.
Can you blame him? He has so much pressure to win. $423 million spent and we’re already in crisis mode, 18 games in.
Jerry Manual did the same thing last year.
Tony Pena will do the same thing if he replaced Girardi this year.”
How about Cito Gaston replacing Gibbons?
If Joba continues to throw 90-91, goes 5 inning a game, has the same BB-K ratio and just looks underwhelming around Memorial Day… Is he really a help to us in the rotation?
18 games people. For crying out loud, a WORLD SERIES is NOT won after 18 games.
The constant whining and complaining is already old.
Personally I am sick of it and the behavior needs to stop!
CB,
I hear what you’re saying but I was hoping Hughes could get 150 innings this year and really get back on track as a starting pitcher. I think having Hughes as the long reliever/swing man would make the team better but it could hurt Hughes’ development.
Speculation is pointless anyways because we all know Girardi hates long relievers for whatever reason
AJ’s Cleveland and Baltimore starts were not “great”.
If he pitches like that often, he is going to pay for it. Just like Joba on Friday night.
ARod, come home, all is forgiven.
“In general, he’s been pretty close to what I expected. Flashes of brilliance mixed with baffling inconsistency.”
That’s AJ Burnett for you. Anything expecting more will be setting themselves up for disappointment. People think he is Roy Halladay.
Wave Your Hat,
I agree, but I think that with Hughes, this decision to leave him in AAA for a bulk of 2009 revolved around his injuries over the past couple years.
I think that in light of those injuries, the Yankees wanted to make sure that the next time they unleashed him, he would finally be ready and healthy.
I didn’t think it would be this soon, but hopefully he is ready. And you’re right, its naive to think that one of our starters wouldn’t get dinged up. But perhaps its a blessing that it happened this early so that we can address and fix the problem now in the hopes of a nice May through September.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but my newspaper this morning said the crowd wanted a curtain call from Ellsbury, but that Ellsbury did NOT take a curtain call. It did say, however, that there were a lot of happy people in the Red Sox dugout. And, I have to ask, were they supposed to be not happy?
“I think everyone, except the most delusional in the fan base, believes this team needs to get better to make the playoffs.”
If by “get better” you mean “play better”, you are unquestionably right.
If by “get better” you mean the Yanks need more than to get ARod back and obtain players who aren’t currently on the 40 man roster or they can’t make the playoffs, then I disagree with you.
Obviously, getting a better CF and some bench help would be better than not doing so, but the team as presently constructed can win.
18 games is too soon to judge anything conclusively.
The bullpen does stink. And not only that, but you’ve got seven guys sitting there each of whom is only capable of pitching one inning. Makes it kind of difficult if your starter needs to be taken out in the second or third.
Also, having so many one-inning relievers sitting around has also thinned out the rest of the roster so that you have virtually no backup players or guys to pinch hit or pinch run.
Injuries continue to plague also…not looking good.
It is a big deal and ifs don’t count.
“If” Oakland made a few plays, they sweep the Yankees.
“If” Posada’s HR isn’t caught by a fan, Cleveland wins 3 of 4 in NY.
We can play the “if” game all we want. That’s not how it goes.
Its wins and losses and no excuses.
This is a No Excuses year for the Yankees.
I don’t want to hear about injuries, statistical anomolies, bad calls, etc. No excuses. Just get the job done.
If the folks on the roster can’t do it, make changes.
When you can’t hit, can’t pitch and can’t win, something that has been all too prevelent in many, many games the past few years, it is a big deal.
Last year, they were in denial about the offense until its too late.
IMO, they are in denial about the pitching staff in the same way.
Can’t do that. Gotta be more proactive. Hopefully, they will.
I have to believe, Joba, the bullpen and CF are going to be issues that are addressed pretty quickly.
I can’t see them falling into the trap of waiting too long to make changes like they did last year.
Michael Dunn isn’t ready. It would nice if he was so Marte could be shown the door though.
Larry Bowa would have cussed out Burnett to no end after he blew that 6 run lead and if Veras walked a guy, he would get a ear full too.
That’s the type of manager we need. A firey guy who won’t sugarcoat anything.
SJ44, you’re making my head hurt. What happened to “you don’t put a talent like that in the bullpen unless you KNOW he can’t start. You just don’t.”
Our rotation is killing our bullpen right now. Taking Joba out of the rotation does not compute.
In any case, we’re getting a bunch more Joba starts before Wang is back and even more before we see what Wang brings to the table. And a bunch of starts from Hughes/starter X. All this talk is premature.
“you’ve got seven guys sitting there each of whom is only capable of pitching one inning.”
That’s because the Yanks insist on using them that way. I’m sure some of these guys could go 2-3 innings if the Yanks wanted to use them that way.
That said, a real long man would not hurt.
What is hurting is having 7 relievers but only only 3 guys on the bench in addition to Molina.
Cashman isin’t getting rid of Marte with 3 yrs left on his deal
And he is pretty useless. You can’t even use him as a long man because he loses stamina after 10 pitches.
Lets all calm down . . Geezzz we got beat by Boston.. OK . . Does that make them the 98 yankees ! .. No that makes them 2 games better than us . I’m sure we’ll be better prepared next time around ! .
Long Long Long way to go ! .
…and the Big Wheel keeps on turning.
Ten years ago the roles were reversed, and the Boston fans were wringing their hands over being continually out-classed and out-G.M.’d.
Ten years from now the Wheel will have turned yet again.
Such is life.
“Michael Dunn isn’t ready.”
I never said he was ready but look at his numbers at AA. J.B. is taking up a roster spot at SWB ahead of him. Pre-surgery Cox would have been an option but Cox is TERRIBLE. With all of the Tommy John surgeries the Yankee prospects are having, they will see that it doesn’t work for everyone.
We need to get Past Boston . .and move on to the series at hand ! . Hopefully Cleveland can take a few from Boston . >We get on a roll . .we win a few ourselves . and Bang all is right with the Universe !
Brian’s first order of business needs to be Mike Cameron.
Wave,
They need a CF. Neither Melky or Gardner are enough for starting duty for a playoff team.
They also need to somehow address the bench. The bench options just aren’t appealling.
The pitching staff? Right now, I’m anxious to see what Melancon and Robertson can do. If they can stabilize things, great.
If not, Joba has to go back there.
They also have to address the issue of dead weight on the roster.
If Jose Veras, Edwar Ramirez and Damaso Marte can’t help you win games, they can’t be on the roster.
You can’t keep giving away roster spots for unproductive players. That’s a practice that has been going on for years here and at some point it has to end.
I meant “but only only 3 guys on the bench one of whom is Molina.”
Something to keep in mind with Joe Girardi, the manager.
John Gibbons started the 08 Blue Jays season with the record of 35-39.
He was fired and replaced by Cito Gaston last year during the season.
Cito Gaston’s record since that time is: 65-43.
That winning % is better than any record Gibbons has had in his 4 1/2 year career with managing the Blue Jays.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Doreen
He did take a curtain call.
Francona laughing when Ellsbury came back to the dugout and with Ellsbury in the dugout seemed out of character and I think that’s why it stuck out.
“Ten years ago the roles were reversed, and the Boston fans were wringing their hands over being continually out-classed and out-G.M.’d.”
I agree but back then Gene Michael was running the show and Big Stein still had a say. Santana would be a Yankee(like he wanted to be) and we would have Beltran as well.
Sometimes it is the manager who’s the problem.
Thanks, pat. Can’t believe everything one reads in the papers.
Mike, exactly.
“The slack has to get picked up from somewhere.
I see what you are saying. You are saying it has to come from the starters.
I’m saying, if you have a weapon that gives the starters some breathing room, as Joba is, IMO, that also has to be on the table for consideration.
Not saying they have to do it today. I am saying though that if Hughes can get the job done, that plan should be considered sooner rather than later.
Using Joba in the way I would use him in the role would still get him at least 120 innings this year.”
sj44-
if hughes does well and wang is ready to return, i agree you have to think about it.
Nick,
I hear ya. Like I said, I’m looking at the entire picture and, unless other guys step up, Joba was a beast in the bullpen and is a work in progress as a starter.
As I said, which way do you go? Its a tough call.
Gotta tell ya though, I’m really not liking a 90-91 MPH Joba, trying to stay in games to give them length. Not exactly “developing” a starter IMO.
I’ve seen that kid in the minors go into the 7th inning and nothing was under 96 on the gun. What’s going on with him? That’s what I’d like to know.
It speaks to his great skill that he is getting outs and getting out jams with lesser stuff.
Like I said, I go back and forth on this.
If I had more confidence they would actually develop him as a starter, I’d probably toss away this season and keep him in the rotation.
But, truth be told, I am having real reservations about this organizations ability to develop its own players.
You just don’t see improvement from year to year. You really don’t, and its frustrating.
In a lot of ways, Joba is the litmus test. If they can’t develop him, whether its as a starter or reliever, than that’s on the Yankees and not Joba.
There is no way that kid shouldn’t be a marquee pitcher, regardless of role. If its not happening, I put that on the team and the way they are developing him.
Nick – 2:27 pm
“SJ44, you’re making my head hurt. What happened to “you don’t put a talent like that in the bullpen unless you KNOW he can’t start. You just don’t.”
Obviously synthetic kryptonite laced with tobacco tar split SJ in two:
Bullpen Joba SJ44 and Starter Joba SJ44.
I don’t like putting Phil in the pen at all….I just don’t see the benefits to him OR the Yankees. He’s a starter – is this what it’s come to with him at age 22? He’s already been rushed now for the 2nd time and you know he will get tar and feathered if he gets bombed (even though he’s not ready yet). The Yanks have a funny way of handling their best prospects.
We absolutely cannot take Joba out of the rotation until we have consistency by every starter (including Hughes and Wang) not named Andy Pettitte. For all that is being made of Joba, he actually gave us the best chance to win in this series. Why take him out of the pen if he can get it done even without his best stuff? I say we wait and let our starters get on a roll. They say guys end up playing to the back of their baseball cards, well, maybe we’re getting the worst month out of the way right as we speak. That’s not such a bad thought is it? Especially if we still end the month at or over a .500 record.
Wait, so the solution to our problem of not developing players is to give up on it altogether by putting Joba in the pen? I’m not understanding that logic.
I like Robertson, but now he’s being overrated. He’s got talent, but he gets hit just as often as he doesn’t. I don’t get why people think he’s all that. Again, I like him – he’s promising. That’s about all I can say for him at this point in time.
“In any case, we’re getting a bunch more Joba starts before Wang is back and even more before we see what Wang brings to the table. And a bunch of starts from Hughes/starter X. All this talk is premature.”
nick in sf-
it’s just looking at future scenarios. it was clear this weekend, the red sox were the stronger team. historical lows were hit.when that happens , i think you have to look at everything. nothing is sacred
“They need a CF. Neither Melky or Gardner are enough for starting duty for a playoff team.
They also need to somehow address the bench. The bench options just aren’t appealling.”
Sure. And the issue here is very different than the issue with the rotation and the pen.
The issues here were ones that existed in the off season.
They are primarily issues of talent more so than performance over a small sample of games.
Unfortunately, the organization decided to take a gamble on gardner.
And the vast majority of fans and people in the media thought that was the way to go. Get younger, speed kills, Brett Gardner always needs some time to adjust to the next level, etc., etc.
The love affair with Brett Gardner was odd as it depended on so many what ifs for a player who simply isn’t that talented with a bat.
I hope he turns into an all star. But I just don’t see the tools for him to be a starting player.
So yes in all likelihood they need a CF.
What the heck – go sign Jim Edmonds. How much worse can he be?
Play Damon in CF.
Preferrably make a trade. They should have bit the bullet and made the cameron trade in the off season.
The bench should be upgraded. Go out and sign Ray Durham or Mark Grudzielanek.
Before people guffaw – ask yourself this – are either of those guys better than Ransom/ Berroa?
CF and the bench are issues of talent and need to be evaluated very differently early in the season compared to the staff and bull pen where they have talent but it is under performing over the first 18 games.
SJ44
“I’ve seen that kid in the minors go into the 7th inning and nothing was under 96 on the gun. What’s going on with him? That’s what I’d like to know.”
You putting any credence into Joba learning from AJ’s experience of not having to throw it through a wall to be an effective starter as the reason?
Time for a reality check.
The 2009 Yankees are just not that good and we are unlikely to win the East and probably will miss the playoffs again.
The Steinbrenner boys are emulating their father’s 1980s strategy – rotate in high-priced free agents in order to make a run every year. The result: a collection of players, many of whom are old, all of whom are expensive and few of whom can be traded.
Go ahead, flame away and tell me that I am an idiot because a) the Yanks always start slow, b) the Red Sox fade over the summer, c) A-Rod is coming back, d) the pitching will get better or (e) that I am a dumbass.
The truth is that we are an 85 win team with a lousy bullpen and a starting staff that looks great on paper, but not so great on the field. Rebuilding the pen during the season is not impossible, but it will be difficult. Oh, and did I mention that we have no center-fielder.
I know Peter will agree with me when I say that the Yankees cursed themsleves when they re-signed Rodriguez, thereby locking up a king’s ransom on a diva whose baseball skills magically disappear come October.
I can only hope that that Yankees do badly enough this year that we really do “blow up” the roster in the offseason and start over (to the extent that we can because so many of the guys are locked in to long-term contracts).
I have lived through earlier droughts (60s-70s, 80s – early 90s) and hope to make it through this one. But, the longer we put off the day of reckoning, the longer we shall dwell in baseball purgatory.
Patrick, I disagree. I like Albaladejo – I’m not ready to throw him in with Veras at all.
DT: maybe that’s it, but Joba-to-the-bullpen is scarier than the Swine Flu.
I’ve seen that kid in the minors go into the 7th inning and nothing was under 96 on the gun. What’s going on with him? That’s what I’d like to know.”
at what point does yankee coaching and development come into play when regression is taking place with pitchers who you wouldn’t think it would happen.
could just be bad luck and coincidence, but one more starter loses velocity and the coaching and conditioning practices has to be looked at.
Girardi is far from perfect, but, again, he’s using what he’s been given. The team is obviously flawed in many areas. Cashman built the team. It amazes me how he is treated and revered as some Golden Child. We’ve been heading downhill for years now. Joe McCarthy and Casey Stengel couldn’t reverse this trend.
SJ44-
I feel your pain, believe me, but I disagree with your conclusions.
First, as bad as they have been so far, I don’t think Marte and Ramirez are unproductive ballplayers. You may recall that I was ticked off in the off-season that Cashman gave Marte a 3 year, $12MM contract. I said no non-closer was worth that kind of contract because they are so inconsistent. That said, it is too soon to write off Marte. Also, I think Ramirez is OK for the back of the pen.
With Melancon and Robertson, there is room to play around with the pen to get the hot hands pitching when they are hot. If that means sending down Veras and Ramirez, fine with me. Hopefully, Bruney won’t be out too long as well.
If Joba goes to the pen, you are opening up another chance for a starter to be out after 2 or 3 innings. That solves nothing.
CF and the bench are problems. But they are problems because the Yanks made a conscious choice to spend their money on Tex and pitching. I argued strenuously here for Cameron, but most of the commenter here disagreed with me.
Despite CF and the bench, the Yanks are good enough to win. The Yanks made choices in the off-season, and they now have to live with the good and the bad.
But just remember you are never as bad as you look when you you get swept 3 in Fenway.
I really think Burnett may have something to do with Joba not throwing as hard as he can. When he was starting last year his FB was around 95 and when he needed a K he dialed it up to 98.
Albaladejo is just another mediocre arm. Ideally, he’d be brought in when the team is up or down by 5 runs. Same for Veras, Ramirez, and Marte. Did I forget anyone?
What we need is CC to go on 3 days rest for the remainder of the season.
Either that or Wang gets straightened out and Joba can give some length.
I’m on the same side as CB… the starting pitching dictates everything, including the effectiveness of the bullpen.
Saying that the 2009 Yankees “are just not that good” is the height of stupidity.
Steve B, I just disagree in the sense that he gave the Yankees exactly what they needed in both Baltimore and Cleveland. I don’t think that’s what people expected of him – I think people were unsure what AJ would do if he didn’t have lights out stuff. Yes, AJ only gave us 5 1/3 innings his first time out, but those were innings the team desperately needed and he made a HUGE pitch to Huff…a curve on 3 and 2? Against Cleveland, he surely walked a tightrope, but again – he took the Yanks into the 7th with a chance to win and made big pitches when he needed. That’s all I mean by very good. When AJ is on, he’s awfully hard to hit. Fans were wondering how he’d do when he wasn’t dominating ..That’s why I keep saying that people should go back to those game threads. Everyone was happy with him, more than happy – excited and almost surprised.
The irony in the Joba talk is that he pitched pretty well on Friday and may just be the best starter in the rotation right now.
“Saying that the 2009 Yankees “are just not that good” is the height of stupidity.”
Its true. I have said this earlier this team is not a playoff team and we are looking at and 85-86 win team here nothing more.
“could just be bad luck and coincidence, but one more starter loses velocity and the coaching and conditioning practices has to be looked at.”
A-freaking-men, where is the accountability from the staff of guys intended to train and develop these young pitchers? You have Kevin Long making house calls across the western hemisphere to make sure his guys are getting in the proper work with the bat but Wang comes back, lost 5mph on his fastball, and doesn’t have the core strength to throw effectively. Now we see a decline in stuff running wild on Jobamania (had to throw the 1980s Wrestling reference in there) since the start of the season. Throw in Phil Coke’s velocity dip and I’m starting to get visions of Hamstring Pulls and Marty Miller dancing in my head.
“Saying that the 2009 Yankees “are just not that good” is the height of stupidity.”
Really, Patrick? Would that be the on-paper Yankees or the team that dropped 2 of 3 to Baltimore? Would that be the on-paper Yankees or the team that got blown out 22-4 by Cleveland (and 10-2 in their HOME opener)? Would that be the on-paper team or the one that lost all three to Boston this past weekend, including two games that they should have won easily?
I normally agree with SJ, but I don’t move Joba to the pen. This team will be craving what he can and will be as a starting pitcher.
While he can affect the outcome of 60-70 games a year as a reliever, you still need a solid talented starting staff to deliver leads to the pen.
Joba has ace stuff. We have seen it. I think he’s modifying his approach right now, but I also think he’s going to be throwing 95 as a starter shortly again.
I want him on the mound every 5th day rather than sitting in the pen waiting for the game to come to him.
At some point the 7-8 inning 10K performances will come and when they do, you know you cannot just find that kind of pitcher.
The thing I think Cashman has to do (as CB mentioned above) is find a CF. I think he should get on the phone with KC and see who it is easier to acquire; Crisp or Dejesus.
I’d prefer Crisp for this team if he’s available.
We need speed, defense and situational hitting ability out of the CF spot. Crisp isn’t Beltran, but he’s better than what we have.
All this Melky will hit .280 with a .350 OBP talk is nonsense. Play Melky everyday and he’ll hit .250 maybe.
I don’t think Gardner is done, but he’s clearly not ready for prime time. He’s up there taking strikes over the middle of the plate looking to draw walks and getting himself into 2 strike counts where he’s K’ing.
He has to adjust and get more agressive on hittable pitcher. And I don’t think it’s the talent level. He’s getting cookies right over the plate early in the count.
If he can’t put those balls into play and get some hits, then he is a pinch runner in the big leagues.
If Veras and Ramirez weren’t so bad I think we’d have a shot at landing a Crisp type for them, but right now I don’t see any GM doing Cashman any favors.
Al — my money is on a 90 win season on the high end, but it still won’t be enough.
Posada’s HR was a HR, IMO……and the game wasn’t over at that point even if was ruled a double or they had to replay the at bat.
“Its true. I have said this earlier this team is not a playoff team and we are looking at and 85-86 win team here nothing more.”
And yet you have nothing to back up this absurd assertion. I wonder why all the projection systems (which are based on actual, real statistics) project the Yankees to win 95 games?
The bench is significantly weakened by Arod and Nady injuries.
With Arod then Ransom/Pena are on the bench and Berroa is still in SWB are no longer with the team.
With Nady then Swisher is on the bench.
Poof – bench fixed.
You cannot plan for losing 1/4 of your starting line-up in the first weeks of the season.
Molina is probably the best backup catcher in the league and one of the best defensive catchers period.
Swisher would have been tremendously versatile on the bench.
Ransom has some pop and would be a nice backup/utility.
Pena – is an outstanding defensive player
Melky – A weak link but would have been the 5th outfielder
The pen is getting killed by the starters. Losing Wang hurts. CC not up to par hurts.
Joba is pitching very well while 5 mph lower than in the past.
The huge question is where is Joba’s velocity. Is it down because the Yankees told him to, AJ told him to, it is early in the season, residual of injury, new injury. If he can hold Boston to 2 runs through (almost) 6 at this level, imagine what he does at 96!
pat,
I don’t know. Just as I watch Brett Gardner take first pitch BP fastballs for strikes in almost every BP, without making adjustments, I don’t know what’s going on with Joba.
To be fair, I’ve been so tied up with my nephew, I haven’t been able to get any scoops on what’s happening.
I just see signs I don’t like and I’m hoping they are more proactive in solving problems than they were last year.
“The irony in the Joba talk is that he pitched pretty well on Friday and may just be the best starter in the rotation right now.”
I’m not sure about that… but for most of the summer, he was the best starter last year, and that can’t be ignored or forgotten.
“I have said this earlier this team is not a playoff team and we are looking at and 85-86 win team here nothing more.”
Well then, I hope you like rooting for an also-ran because if that is the case there is nothing the Yanks can do now to pick up an extra 10 wins.
But, fortunately for the Yanks and the rest of us, you have no foundation for saying this is an 85-86 win team. You are drawing way too many conclusions from the first 18 games.
Tim stop being dopey. Every team in the history of baseball has their share of bad losses. If I point out every good win they’ve had this season will you then believe they are a great team?
I would rather jettison Dave Eiland than monkey around with Joba. Maybe we can snatch somebody out of Tampa (the Rays’ Tampa, not our Tampa) and then introduce our new pitching coach, Al Neilan.
“And yet you have nothing to back up this absurd assertion. I wonder why all the projection systems (which are based on actual, real statistics) project the Yankees to win 95 games?”
No middle relief, shaky starters, no clutch hitting, poor defense, band-box ballpark, injury concerns. How do you see this team winning 95 games?
Wow. This thread is beyond disgusting.
90% of Yankees ‘fans’ just parrot Francessa’s ‘The Yankees are horrible and it’s Cashman’s fault an the Red Sox are awesome because of Epstein’ crap.
And SJ44 wants to overreact and convert Joba into Bobby Jenks? That would be a catastrophic move. Let the guy develop into a front line pitcher. Unless you truly, truly, believe that Bobby Jenks is worth more to an organization than Johan Santana.
I am saving the url to this thread, and posting it when everyone’s lauding the division leading Yankees at the All Star Break.
“I think if Joba would be moved back to the bullpen, he would be there to stay for the rest of his career.”
———-
I’m not seeing where this complete 180 is coming from SJ44.
If Joba has a “once in a generation” arm, as I believe you’ve said on occasion, it’s ridiculous to use that in the bullpen, under any circumstance.
If the Yankees were in first place right now, nobody would be having this discussion. But typical April panic has set in and nobody thinks it’s even a remote possibility that the Yankees might actually be a better team than they’ve showed so far.
Watch and see what happens the first time we get 5 quality starts in a row. All of sudden, the bullpen will be fine.
I don’t know why Al is being crucified for his projection. And when exactly will this “rejuvenation” and improvement begin? It had better happen relatively soon (before June) or we could be staring at an 8 or 9 game deficit.
“At some point the 7-8 inning 10K performances will come and when they do, you know you cannot just find that kind of pitcher. ”
It’s as if people have completely forgotten that he was tremendous last year as a starter.
I’d love to go back and look at what people’s comments were regarding Joba as a starter vs. reliever after that 1-0 gem in boston.
He’s still young and figuring it out. It seems to me he’s trying to figure out what is the lowest velocity he can throw at while being successful.
The injury last year may have made him think things through again about how hard he needs to throw. Same for the talks he’s likely having with AJ, CC and Andy.
If you move Joba to the pen now then just write off the franchise because then you are essentially admitting that there simply is no time or patience in the yankeeland to develop any young pitchers for the rotation.
Not even one as talented as Joba who is part of a staff that has CC, Wang, AJ and Pettite penciled in around him.
If the franchise, the city and the fanbase lack the minimal patience required to make this near optimal situation work then the franchise is doomed for decades because they will constantly be playing for short term gain and will always be behind the red sox as they continue to have the patience to allow John Lester bloom into a front line starter despite his poor initial control and inefficiency.
Moving Joba to the pen is complete surrender to the Red Sox. Complete strategic surrender.
“No middle relief, shaky starters, no clutch hitting, poor defense, band-box ballpark, injury concerns. How do you see this team winning 95 games?”
I can play that game. Hall of fame ss and 3b, 4 aces in the rotation, greatest closer of all time, gold glove infielders, most exciting young pitcher in the league, best 2b in the league.
The fact is, both of these arguments mean absolutely nothing.
What I find ironic:
people who said –
don’t call new Yankee Stadium a bandbox – give it time. Give it at least half a season before making a judgement…..
are some of the same people who are saying the Yanks are a crap team after 18 games.
Last year in April –
Melky had 5 homers and was batting .299
Mussina was 1-3 with a 5.75 ERA
The moral of the story – things don’t always turn out the way they begin.
I have said repeatedly that I’m not saying, “Move Joba to the bullpen now”.
I am saying that, if a certain set of circumstances I outlined above take place, it should be considered.
As far as this team not “being a playoff team”, I disagree.
If they don’t make the playoffs this year, with this team, flaws and all, firings need to take place.
This team IS good enough to make the playoffs. They have to however, PLAY better and, if they have to add personnel, do so. That’s what we are talking about here today.
“I’d love to go back and look at what people’s comments were regarding Joba as a starter vs. reliever after that 1-0 gem in boston.”
———-
touche
“Moving Joba to the pen is complete surrender to the Red Sox. Complete strategic surrender.”
Totally agreed, CB. And Lester’s a perfect comparison. Lester was 24 when he finally converted his potential into reality. Even then, he’s got a near 5.00 to start his age 25 season. Are Red Sox fans overreacting and wanting him converted to a reliever??!
Joba is TWENTY THREE years old. Give him a couple of years to figure out how to be an efficient 7 inning, 3.5 ERA guy.
“I don’t know why Al is being crucified for his projection. And when exactly will this “rejuvenation” and improvement begin? It had better happen relatively soon (before June) or we could be staring at an 8 or 9 game deficit.”
The 1975 Cincinnati Reds were 20-20 after their first 40 games. I seem to recall they did OK.
The Yanks have a world of talent, even in the so-called “awful” bullpen. Getting ARod back will make a huge, huge difference alone. Our starting rotation will be fine, and maybe even better with Hughes replacing Wang.
At the end of March I thought this team would win the AL East, and I’m not prepared to change based on the first 18 games.
I think AJ’s advice is/was good – that’s advice that he himself was was getting for years and was too immature to accept. It finally clicked for him in the 2nd half of last year – it could just be that Joba is having a hard time adjusting (after all, he’s a kid and AJ is 32). Also, people have pointed out that Joba’s mechanics don’t look the same, that he looks awkard. I think it’s a confluence of things with Joba….
SJ44,
You know full well that when Alex comes back it will make a tremendous difference.
The bullpen issues have been in large part due to Wang’s 1-inning outings that just crucified the team.
If Bruney comes back in a couple weeks, and Melancon is here to stay, the bullpen will still be above average.
The starters just need to pitch their average seasons. They don’t need career years, just their well-established averages.
It’s not time for the “we’re going to miss the playoffs” talk that some people are spewing.
Betsy — Do you have some infatuation with AJ? Are you a relative?
SJ44,
It is true that you’ve qualified all your Joba to the bullpen remarks with “IF hughes pitches well”. However, even IF Hughes pitches well, it’s still a terrible terrible idea to put Joba in the bullpen.
And, as shaky as he’s been so far in 2009, he’s basically been Daisuke Matsuzaka-ish (too many baserunners, but not many balls hit hard). Which, while not amazing, is pretty damn good for a 23 year old.
“Moving Joba to the pen is complete surrender to the Red Sox. Complete strategic surrender.”
————
They might as well hire Francessa as the GM if they’re going to go that route.
Hughes pitching well over the next month, Brian Bruney’s injury, and Jose Veras’s/Edwar’s wild fluctuations in performance are not adequate criteria to make a franchise changing decision like moving Joba to the pen.
They are just not. Not even close.
That would simply be repeating the pattern of mistakes that has made this franchise a weaker one that boston.
That’s all it would do. It would ruin the franchise in so many ways. Both in terms of actual performance, precedent it woudl set and it’s symbolic import.
It would be amongst the worst decisions in franchise history.
Again – none of this is new. All of it has been hashed through thousands of times on these and other threads.
What has changed is that the team is 9-9 and just got swept by the sox.
Will Kennedy ever play as in the mlb as a Yankee? Or is he just trade bait now?
“At the end of March I thought this team would win the AL East, and I’m not prepared to change based on the first 18 games.”
That’s great. But these are all opinions, and the games are won and lost on the field. No reason to bash those who don’t the see the Big Red Machine here.
“What has changed is that the team is 9-9″
———
which is what the Sox would be if they didn’t have their best hitter (Youkilis)
Nick.
Thanks for the swine reference. I have a 5:40 flight to Houston. A pulled pork sandwich is off the list..
All.
Most of our collective angst as fans in the AL East is the strength of the division. It creates an urgency that is not seen in the AL Central and or West. JMO.
I bet the White Sox, Royals and Twin fans are OK with being 9-9 today.
The margin for error in the East is different.
-dennis
paradigm shift?
One last point from me,
I completely respect and welcome the various viewpoints on these issues. Especially the Joba stuff.
I really can see all points of views on the topic.
Hopefully, some guys can pick up their games and make some of these decisions moot.
However, if they can’t, I just hope they learned their lesson from being in denial about making changes from last year.
SJ and others:
What is up with Joba’s velocity?
Is it advice from the Yankees to tone it down, advice from AJ to tone it down (although he still throws 95ish), a residual affect from the injury last year, a new inury?
In the minors Joba threw 95-97 into the 7th inning.
A testament to how good he might be that he has been successful at 5 MPH lower than normal.
It makes no difference to Joba what role he has and he’s said as much but he clearly had the mindset of a reliever when used that way. He may be a reliever trapped inside a starter’s body for lack of a better way to describe it.
It’s been all about what Cashman [thinks] he should be.
Hughes can be the key. If he now shows he’s major league ready, he can be slotted as the No. 2 or 4 starter with Aceves being the bandaid No. 5 until Wang’s problems are cleared up.
Meantime it’s becoming more apparent that the CF question will have to be solidified VIA the trade route when certain teams need to shrink payroll because of lagging attendance. A-Jax can’t be rushed.
“What has changed is that the team is 9-9”
————-
which is what the Sox would be if they didn’t have their best hitter (Youkilis)
_____________________________________
or didn’t play 12 of their first 18 games in friendly Fenway….
The bullpen doesn’t stink. I actually think the manager stinks. He leaves guys out there far too long, gives pep talks instead of hooks, and takes guys out only after they’ve given up runs. None of these guys whould be pitching multiple innings.
How, other than the Joba scenario provided earlier (which i still disagree with), do you build a bullpen? You don’t do it by overpaying mercurial career middle relievers. You do it the way the Yankees are doing it. You put low-cost pieces together, and you make it work.
Dave Eiland was supposed to be the guy who worked with the young pitchers and could help them adjust. Every young pitcher we’ve brought to the major league level has underperformed, as have even the majority of our veteran pitchers. Nobody looks tough, or ready enough, to handle this day-in, day-out. I wouldn’t have built my 2009 Yankee bullpen any differently, though.
Frankly, I’m starting to believe more that we handed a bunch of kids in Girardi and Eiland the keys to a Porsche rather than giving them to someone who knows how to drive one. I’m daydreaming more about Bobby V every day.
Not panicking at all, but the Sox weren’t saying “don’t worry…..we’ll be better tomorrow.” They were beating our butts that very day.
I really don’t get it everyone thinks that a white knight will come riding in to save the season. Sure its nice to think that A-Rod can be that guy but he might struggle, and then what? Also all the CC apologists are really blind, its not about the money he is making its the fact that he looks lost out there throwing junk. We brought this guy here to be an Ace not just “pretty good”. Look at what Santana is doing across town and you’ll see what a true ace looks like.
What if Wang does not come back as the pitcher he once was from previous years? Anyone else a bit worried about this? I know I am a little.
What do we do, keep Hughes up here and put Wang in the bullpen?
Meet Wang under the O’Neil banner at Yankee Stadium and straighten him out?
Eh, just wondering aloud.
I woke up this morning feeling like it was October, the same empty feeling I’ve suffered through after the Yanks have been sent home for the season….Then I realized it’s only April 27th, and there’s 144 games remaining…I reassured myself that this is a very good team and a turnaround is near….Nothing better than a 5 game winning streak to cure the October blues in April
I agree that you would rather get 200 innings from a great pitcher than 70, but let’s think of this objectively…
The strength of this team is its starting pitching, it’s glaring weakness is its bullpen. Take Joba out of the rotation, replace him with Hughes and healthy CMW or Aceves and you still have a pretty good rotation. Put Joba in the bullpen and with Mo,a healthy Bruney (which we may never see) and Melancon and the bullpen is a strength.
Does this give the MLB club the best chance to win now?
“Betsy-Do you have some infatuation with AJ? Are you a relative?”
Shhh she’s probably crushing on him.
J/K
Moving Joba to the pen would really be in a very particular, specific way surrender to the red sox.
It would essentially be saying, look we simply don’t have the patience, will and fortitude needed to develop this wildly talented young pitcher because your [the sox] franchise is so well positioned for short terms success.
So we’ll give up all of the strategic and many of the tactical plans we’ve had for the past 4 years and dump them in the garbage in order to try to catch up with you through more short term gain.
The sox would not only win on the field – they would win off of it.
Moving Joba to the pen would be one of the Sox great strategic victories against the yankees.
Only in the in crazy world of the Yankees would moving joba to the pen even be quasi-considered.
The Sox would rejoice. It would be an enormous victory for them.
It would be a form of capitulation, engendered both directly and indirectly, by the accumulation of events like Ellsbury stealing home or Mo blowing a save.
No rational organization makes moves based on those kinds of issues.
If you guys were Red Sox fans, would you be worried about Lester, Beckett, and the bullpen’s performance on Saturday?
The Red Sox are NOT going to continue their hot hitting (Youkilis at a .440 AVG??!).
did anyone witness the flyover photo op over lower manhattan today?
disgraceful
S.A.–Honk if you hate hobbits
April 27th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
“What if Wang does not come back as the pitcher he once was from previous years? ……….. Meet Wang under the O’Neil banner at Yankee Stadium and straighten him out?”
_________________________________________________________
Only if he wears a Matsui jersey
After reading some of these gloom and doom posts, I now realize how Mike Francesa has been on the air for 20 years – he preaches to the choir.
“I know Peter will agree with me when I say that the Yankees cursed themsleves when they re-signed Rodriguez, thereby locking up a king’s ransom on a diva whose baseball skills magically disappear come October.”
Tim, analysis like this drives me crazy. Everyone else flies under the radar for their lack of production with some foolish garbage about an A-Rod curse.
A-Rod’s presence may not have made much of a difference over the first 18 games as far as wins, but his absence has said A LOT: that the Yankees’ inability to get it done is not because of any A-Rod distractions.
So lets put that to bed and also this idea that he (or Jason when he was here, or any other FA that doesn’t have a ring) is the reason they have not won.
Baseball analysis needs to get just a tad bit more mature than these talking points.
ZMann, if you don’t think that it’s good advice for AJ or anyone to be suggesting to Joba that he not throw the ball through the wall, then what can I say? I get that you’ve had issues in the past with my posts, but I’m not going to get into that here.
All I am suggesting in 3/4 starts, AJ has done what we would have hoped he would o….and suggesting that you read back to the game threads is a solid idea because it will tell you what folks were thinking at the time. How many times do you want me to say that AJ did a bad job on Saturday? I’m simply not going to trash him, that’s all, and I’m not going revisit his starts after the bad start and start picking things apart. I think I’ve explained myself pretty well……If you have a problem with that, I’m sorry.
Heres the way to fix the yankees’ problems..
starting pitching – is not a problem….yet…..lets wait another 2 months before we send out the SOS signal…
relief pitching – if veras, edwar and marte can’t do it there are plenty of trades that can be made to get arms in here –
hitting with risp – LEARN TO BUNT – how do you avoid not scoring a run with the bases loaded and no outs – BUNT the run(s) in….whether a suicide bunt or safety bunt you gotta bunt the runs in if the only other options are striking out or GIDP..LEARN TO BUNT
that and when the opposing pitcher just walked the bases loaded (or 2 out of the 3)you DON’T swing at the 2-0 pitch (yes you cano, melky, posada and whomever else is guilty of that unforgivable sin)
by the way – how is that getting younger and more athletic thing working out – how nice would manny, jj putz, cameron and/or mark loretta look right now…
“A testament to how good he might be that he has been successful at 5 MPH lower than normal.”
He’s averaging 5 1/3 per start, has a 1.81 WHIP and he walks as many as he whiffs at 5 MPH lower. He’s been dodging bullets at 5 MPH lower
““What has changed is that the team is 9-9”
————-
which is what the Sox would be if they didn’t have their best hitter (Youkilis)
_
or didn’t play 12 of their first 18 games in friendly Fenway….”
———-
very true. The Sox are a good team as we all thought they’d be but it’s 10% of the season.
Let’s at least play 30-40% of the games before we resign the Yankees to another ‘wasted’ season.
Anybody who doesn’t think the Yankees will make the playoffs, what odds will you give? I’ll take the bet.
“I really don’t get it everyone thinks that a white knight will come riding in to save the season. Sure its nice to think that A-Rod can be that guy but he might struggle, and then what? Also all the CC apologists are really blind, its not about the money he is making its the fact that he looks lost out there throwing junk. We brought this guy here to be an Ace not just “pretty good”. Look at what Santana is doing across town and you’ll see what a true ace looks like.”
How did Santana look last year at the beginning of the season when the gopher balls were flying all over the town? And how is it ALREADY clear that CC will not pitch up to the expectations or, as you would like, pitch on par with the great, lusted-after Johan?!
Furthermore, WHY?! does the season need to be “saved”? It’s still April, and it’s not as though the Yankees are buried at 9-9. I love how there is no chance that any of the people currently on the roster will get their games in order and start performing better thus making the team win more games, it’s all about one person “saving” the season. How short-sighted can you people possibly be?
SJ what are sippin on man? Can i get some of that good stuff you’re on?
I always look forward reading your posts but man Joba to the bullpen isn’t a bright idea.
Steve – that’s right.
Take 5 mph away from any other starter in the league and tell me who is better.
He has not been great. He has a long way to go to improve – including becoming much more efficient, walking fewer batters etc. But he has been good and has given the Yankees a chance to win when he pitches.
BTW when the season opened he was the number 5 starter.
There are issues. Definitely. That need to be addressed. But I don’t think it’s time to write the team off for the season yet.
What has changed in 2 weeks is pitchers that were expected to lead this team not doing their jobs. But 3 things happened that specifically that makes everything snowball: Alex’s hip, Wang’s “problem” and Nady’s arm. Oh, and add Burney to the list. 4 specific things that affect everthing else in a fairly logical way. And, actually Ransom, too, should be added.
It’s easy to say, no excuses, but the fact of the matter is, the depth that the Yankees were so happy about (and a lot of people here), started to dissipate shortly after spring training started with ARod. Right from the get-go, you’re into depth level C, having to bring up Pena and play Ransom every day. Then Ransom goes down, and, you’re into depth level D, because now Berroa has to play. Is someone here going to argue that Boston has depth level D????
We had a fair to good outfield situation before Nady went down, because cycling Nady, Swisher, Damon, and then Gardner & Melky not only gave everyone breathing room, but encouraged a healthy competition. Nady goes down, Swisher becomes everyday, except on the days he’s rested and Gardner/Cabrera have more of an impact than they should have on the lineup.
Wang. Wow. Just wow. The repercussions of this 3 abyssmal starts are going to reverberate for a while. I won’t say the Yankees should have realized he’d be a problem, but I will say that after start #2, he should have been out of there. BUT I have to wonder if they were trying to avoid calling up Phil Hughes in the 1st week of the season. I know, not a great reason, but at least not no reason, because they could have called up Aceves for one start and then seen what was what. But the bullpen can’t catch up with itself. Because CC not going long in 2 starts, plus extra innings, what else can be expected.
So, no excuses is not exactly right. Plus, I really don’t hear the Yankees making excuses. I hear the fans and talk radio people etc., laying out the excuses. In every game that’s gone south this year, the players responsible have stood up to the media and owned up to their poor performances and made no excuses.
It’s true Girardi has said on a few occasions that Alex can’t be replaced, but I think, honestly, that he’s trying to protect Ransom and Pena from taking too much of a hit. They aren’t Alex. And I also believe that repeating that Alex is missed is for Alex. Rightly or wrongly.
As you can see, I’m conflicted. I know they’re not playing well, as a fan I’m open to moves being made, but I don’t want to go as far as saying the entire Yankees organization is horrible. I can’t go there. And that’s what ends up happening here. Even when the criticism is constructive and precise, there’s always a faction of people who take it down a level. Two weeks ago, everything looked rosey (to most people, I will concede there have always been people who were not happy with the make up of this team even before injuries).
I still am not convinced it can’t be turned around with a good week of starting pitching. Starting tonight with CC, of course.
Why are people bringing up last year’s Joba?
He isin’t anywhere close to the same pitcher. Throwing in the low 90s, flat slider, no control, no swagger.
They don’t even look like the same pitcher.
What will it take for all of the negative Nancies and doom and gloomers to shut up?
Does it really take one bad week for the Yankees and one good week for the Red Sox for the atmosphere to go from ‘things will be ok’ to ‘OMG we suck’?
If the Yankees rattle off a 10 game winning streak while the Sox go 5-5, will the world be OK again?
As a master mathematician, I have calculated that if NYY picks up 1 win every two weeks on the rest of the division for the rest of the year, they have a good chance of winning the AL East. Perhaps somebody could check my math for me, just for the Hell of it.
For all the love that the RS get about how they develop players I think you might want to watch Lester this year.
The talk about young pitchers is to control innings pitched. I don’t rember what his increase was last year but I know it was significant. It is possible that is why he hasn’t been as good this year. That may be Verlander’s problem as well.
I think they need to be carefull not to keep messing with Joba and his role.
For the ones that want to blame this coaching staff for Joba’s problems rember he started out under Torre.
Trev, lol – I’m not going to pretend that AJ isn’t my favorite new Yankee. He is………by far. We can all just agree to disagree on what he’s given us thus far – it’s not that big of a deal.
Yalta + Hindenberg = Joba to the bullpen.
“And I also believe that repeating that Alex is missed is for Alex. Rightly or wrongly.”
I think the circus that is this sky is falling hysteria signals that he is missed.
Some pretty interesting stuff here. It is the era comparison of when Posada catches to when Molina catches. Granted it is a small sample size, but it is nonetheless startling:
http://riveraveblues.com/2009/.....era-10865/
“RuhiKuz
April 27th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Francessa sounds like a jackass right now.”
Just right now? lol
Doreen – Very well said and I agree completely.
No one plans a season with the best (or certainly one of the top 3) players in all of baseball on the DL.
Then lose another starter.
Then lose your back-up to the best player in the game.
Then have your #2 starter who has been remarkably solid all year get obliterated and then go on the DL.
Then have your 8th inning guy go on the DL.
The Sox are the Yankees “daddy” the last few years. Again, against any team other than Boston the Yankees take 2 of 3 this weekend.
OK, so we are declaring the first crisis of confidence this season? In April?
By the end of the season I bet the Yankees come out even or better against the Sox in their head to head series. The Sox are very hot right now, and the Yanks are staggered. You really have to ask yourself whether this is the Sox team we’ll see all year. Same question for the Yanks. (Same question for Tampa and Toronto).
It’s APRIL. If you mess with it now, there’s no way to know whether you are fixing something that would have fixed itself with a little more time. And at what price.
Hold your fire for now…
“If you guys were Red Sox fans, would you be worried about Lester, Beckett, and the bullpen’s performance on Saturday?”
Beckett? Yes
Lester? 6 IP, 2 ER, 7 K’s – Lot of pitches, but I wouldn’t worry.
Bullpen on Saturday? 1 ER in 4 IP (3 runs overall). Lot of baserunners (9). Wouldn’t feel great about that, but wouldn’t sweat it either.
sorry – not all year – all of his career.
Doreen, great post – completely agree. Explanations are not excuses, they are simply explanations. You’re right – the players have been accountable – I don’t see anyone pointing fingers.
Didn’t the Sox do the same exact thing with Papelbon? Aren’t they doing something very similar with Masterson?
Steve – you worry about Lester because he threw so many more innings last year than at any other point in his career. He is on Verducci’s infamous watch list for injury. His first couple of starts were not good.
Silver lining – still 3 up on Tampa in the loss column.
The Blue Jays fall back to earth. The West is not good and will not have the wildcard. The central are all mediocre and will probably beat up on another enough to not get the wildcard.
If the Yankees stay ahead of Tampa that is key.
Francesa, I’m told, tried to discredit Melancon’s debut because “the game was out of reach.”
4-1 in Fenway is out of reach.
How is this guy even allowed to talk about baseball?
He has no vision, no insight, and harps on what he thinks is some clandestine platform. Now that Melancon is here, he’s worried his only gimmick will be taken away from him.
Pathetic.
What a great thread for a seemingly insignificant post (with all due respect to Pete).
I think what makes it so frustrating for fans is that you can see so much talent on this team, you would think it is a quick fix. Maybe it is more about the culture of the organization and how it’s run. There are a lot of talented young arms in this system. So why don’t they develop?
And why does Swish seem like the only one having fun playing a game? 162 games a year, fellas, loosen up!
There are ways to fix the pen (hopefully Melancon and Robertson can help, Bruney gets well, who knows maybe the Joba fix), there are a few good starters lurking in the minors (Hughes, Aceves, Kennedy), Arod coming back (so no more Berroa and Ransom – for now), the bench is useless (but you can trade for a few good bench players), BUT WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS WHERE IS THE MOJO?
“He’s been dodging bullets at 5 MPH lower”
That’s one way of looking at it.
Another is that he’s been dodging a bullet walking 5.6/9 innings.
I think that’s the much larger issue. Many pitchers are successful throwing in the low 90′s.
No pitcher is successful walking 6 hitters every 9 innings.
But for some reason people worry more about Joba’s velocity than his command.
And it’s been his command which has been the problem.
murphydog -
I agree. It’s still to early for drastic measures.
five iron from fenway -
I have to disagree about the Sox being the Yankees’ “daddy.” They certainly were this weekend, but head-to-head over the last couple of years, they’re fairly evenly matched record-wise and runs scored against wise. The Red Sox missed the playoffs in 2006, the Yankees in 2008. I will agree that the Red Sox are a really good team, and have had more success than the Yankees since 2004 overall.
“Steve – you worry about Lester because he threw so many more innings last year than at any other point in his career.”
True.
CB – but is Joba trying to be too fine with his velocity down.
I am not worried and there are plenty of guys successful at 90-92, but if you can throw 95-97 through 7 innings why the heck not.
First pitch strike. Girardi needs to make every pithcer do push-ups if they can’t do this.
Again, I am searching for some credible reason Joba’s velocity is down. I always worry about injury with lessened velocity and poor command.
Murphydog: what are you talking about? The first crisis of confidence was on opening day in Baltimore.
Doreen – I guess it is more of an emotional rather than statistical point. I am sitting there watching the game Friday thinking “when are the Sox going to come back, when are the Sox going to come back.”
It is also the fact that they do own Mo. He has blown 13 saves against them. It is more disheartening to lose with 2 out in the ninth!
CB:
I think you’re reiterating my point. High WHIP, poor K/BB ratio, diminished K rate. Nowhere close the same Joba who was throwing bb’s as a starter last season.
Doesn’t mean he won’t be, but since the start of camp, his velocity has been down and he’s been having some trouble locating. Maybe startin’ to worry a little.
CB:
I think you’re reiterating my point. High WHIP, poor K/BB ratio, diminished K rate. Nowhere close the same Joba who was throwing bb’s as a starter last season.
Doesn’t mean he won’t be, but since the start of camp, his velocity has been down and he’s been having some trouble locating. Maybe startin’ to worry a little.
Didn’t the team look like they had great chemistry this weekend?
murphy
Agree. There are enough moving parts already to just make knee jerk reactions to a weekend series. Put out the current fires before starting new ones.
Doreen
Girardi doesn’t need to say anything to stroke his ego. All Alex had to do was watch a any game in the last 3 weeks.
five iron -
Ah, I see. Different point of view. I also don’t have an “automatic save” feeling when Mo comes in against the Sox anymore. They’ve just seen too much of him and had quite a bit of success against him so they have historical precedence for thinking they can beat him. (But the Yankees have also beat Papelbon, so it evens out a bit.) And prior to 2004, you never thought the Sox would come back if they were behind the Yankees. Well, almost never thought so.
“I think you’re reiterating my point.”
I was and I was doing so to emphasize that while people are focused on the process of how he throws i.e. his velocity his biggest issue is his poor command.
When people say its not he same joba as last year they’re for the most part saying he’s not throwing as hard.
But the primary reason he hasn’t been as good as a starter in terms of real outcomes of pitching is that he’s walking far too many hitters.
pat -
True enough.
Only in the crazy world of the Yankees would moving joba to the pen even be quasi-considered.
The Sox would rejoice. It would be an enormous victory for them.
**************************
I beg to differ. Case in point, Papelbon. Nobody in either city made an issue of it.
“I beg to differ. Case in point, Papelbon. Nobody in either city made an issue of it.”
———-
Injury risk forced Papelbon to the pen. It was a calculated decision based on long term benefit to the team (directly related to the likelihood of injury)
easy…obviously someone using SJ’s name…..TROLL!!!
What about Masterson? Set up guy who CAN start. Helps Boston the most in the bullpen. Will probably be a full-time started eventually.
Couldn’t the Yankees use Joba in a similar role?
it’s easy to figure out why Jackson hasn’t pitched yet… To quote Jeff Van Gundy…. “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results” people Girardi is insane
…and Pedroia breaks for first!
Cano should definitely hit clean up until ARod comes back.