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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Too many good starters? Oh, no!

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Apr 29, 2009 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

You knew this would happen. You just knew it.

The Yankees lost four in a row and the fans wanted everybody fired. Then Phil Hughes pitched six shutout innings and now everybody wants to know what will happen when Chien-Ming Wang comes back.

Oh, heavens, they’ll have too many good pitchers. What a dilemma.

Here’s a wild thought: Sit back and watch the game tonight and stop worrying about it.

Hughes pitched one game. Let’s wait a few starts before deciding that his being good is such a problem. Meanwhile, Chien-Ming Wang will throw 40 pitches to 17-year-old kids on Saturday. He’s not exactly racing up the interstate to the Bronx.

But for the sake of internet traffic (and my e-mail in-box), let’s say that Wang comes back in early June and Hughes is 4-1, 2.85. What then?

You shake Phil’s hand, thank him for a job well done and send him back to Scranton until he is needed again.

Get this much straight: CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Andy Pettitte are pitching every five days if they are healthy. That’s a given. There is not going to be a six-man rotation. Those guys are conditioned to pitch every five days and they’re getting a pile of money to do so.

Joba Chamberlain also needs to pitch. One good start by Hughes in April should not start the “We need Joba in the bullpen” nonsense. Who knew that Tyler Kepner was such a rabble-rouser?

Here is what some people can’t seem to understand: Joba threw 100 innings last season. He needs to throw 150-plus this season so that in 2010 he can throw 180-plus. Then he can throw 200-plus in 2011 and so on. This is a young man with a great arm, four pitches and the makeup to be an ace. The Yankees would be foolish not to give him every chance to be a starter.

If you send him back to the bullpen, you’re starting the process all over again and increasing the risk of injury by suddenly changing his role. Joba has a 2.43 ERA in 15 starts over the last two seasons. That is really, really, very, very good.

This season is going to take twists and turns none of us can see coming. The odds of Sabathia, Burnett and Pettitte each making 33 starts are slim. I wrote this in spring training and more than I ever I believe it to be true: Hughes will throw 100 innings in the majors and be a very important piece of this team.

Oh — by the way — he’s not ready to go 180 innings, either. Given his history, what in the world suggests to you that he’s going to pitch every five days from now until October?

Let this play out. Hughes can fill in for Wang right now. Mark Melancon is here and looking great. The other relievers aren’t as bad as they have been so far. It’ll work out.

If the biggest problem the Yankees have this season is what to do with all of their great starting pitchers, the second biggest problem will be what day to have the parade.

 
 

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379 Responses to “Too many good starters? Oh, no!”

  1. Brandon If Melancon doesn't K the first batter he's a bust "I LOVE ME SOME ME !" April 29th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    6 man rotation baby ! Innings cap for Joba and Hughes :)

  2. Jeff NJ April 29th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Repeat from last thread for GB:

    “Sorry, but, I don’t keep track of such childish things as “Icalled it. I’m right.” It serves zero purpose. However, if it makes you feel better, have at it.

    And the name calling begins. I’m childish. By the way, your hero SJ44 referenced something from last year, is he childish?

    Anyway, I’m offerring my opinion on Wang. Truth of the matter is someone is always hurt and six starters are needed so the question is probably moot especially being that there is not much depth after those 6 starters.

  3. Bronx Jeers April 29th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    Oh Pete this post is sooooooo 90 minutes ago.

  4. Uncle Ellsworth April 29th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    “Here’s a wild thought: Sit back and watch the game tonight and stop worrying about it.”

    sage words

  5. Global Warming April 29th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    “let’s say that Wang comes back in early June and Hughes is 4-1, 2.85. What then?

    You shake Phil’s hand, thank him for a job well done and send him back to Scranton until he is needed again.”

    LOL. If Hughes pitches like that he is here to stay and it will be Wang who will have to be Triple A Scrantons Ace.

  6. V April 29th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    Well said, Pete.

  7. Kid Yanks April 29th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    Whoo Hoooo!!! Stop the presses: the team with the $200 million+ payroll won a game!!!!

  8. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    There won’t be a six man rotation because that throws veterans like CC and Andy off their routines and they won’t do that.

    Pete,

    All of what you say is true with one caveat none of us know the answer to at this time.

    Can Joba’s shoulder handle being a starter?

    I talked to a scout this weekend who has watched him pitch twice so far this year.

    His take…..

    He is either holding back because he believes he has to in order to go longer in games. Or, he is afraid to cut it loose because of health reasons.

    I don’t know the answer to the questions.

    I do know a Joba Chamberlain throwing 90-91 MPH, not missing bats, and pitching 5 struggling innings, is a pedestrian starting pitcher.

    Joba Chamberlain throwing 95-98 MPH, with a devastating slider, making bats miss, is a dominating pitcher period. Whether its in the rotation or out of the bullpen.

    Is this a “Papelbon situation” where he simply can’t handle the workload (for health reasons) as a starter?

    Or, is it part of his evolution as a starting pitcher?

    If its the latter, where is the velocity and movement on his pitches?

    Personally, I would LOVE the Yankees to have the “problem” of too many starting pitchers. That would be a first in the recent history of this franchise.

    More importantly though, I want to know what’s going on with Joba.

    He has not been the same pitcher we have seen the last two years. Not in the spring and not since the season started.

    In order to have any reasonable discussion about him, I think we know to know more about what’s going on with him at the present time.

  9. Roy32 April 29th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    If Hughes is 4-1 with a 2.85 ERA, ain’t no way he sees the minors again, buddy. Just gotta get the MT-25 powered up.

  10. V April 29th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    “Okay, watching the 2nd batter of the 10-run inning. What the heck was Leyland doing throwing a guy who was in rookie ball last year into a scoreless game?”

    That’d be Ryan Perry – the Tiger’s future closer. They drafted him in the 1st round last year, due to a lack of relief talent (majors AND minors).

    That’s why the Yankees are blessed to have Melancon, Coke, Robertson, and the many potential relievers in the minors (1st round pick should NOT be a reliever).

    He’s going to have to develop the hard way, in the majors, but he was a solid college pitcher, and those usually don’t really need to learn much in the minors. 96-98 fastball, decent command, excellent high 90s change, average (could eventually be plus) slider. I have him in one of my DEEP keeper fantasy leagues.

  11. Asbury April 29th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    The voice of reason.

  12. m April 29th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    In self-defense, I had a lot of qualifiers. First of all, that Hughes would be lights out. Wang would be Wang. And my 6-man had the 4 vets pitching on a regular schedule.

    Doreen,

    Zero chance of Joba being sent down.

    Nick,

    Yes, Mama Bear’s the name. But I want Phil Hughes to pitch in any potential postseason because I’m confident in him. Add Andy to that short list of pitchers as well. And how can I be Andy’s Mama Bear if the dude’s older than me?

  13. S.A.--Honk if you hate hobbits April 29th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    Let’s just see what happens. It’s a long season.
    Though I do have to admit hearing Joba to the pen is making me batty. :roll:

  14. V April 29th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    SJ44 – is it possible he’s just not in top physical shape yet?

  15. Rafael April 29th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    anyone have the Joba ERA as reliever?

  16. kyle farnsworth April 29th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    SJ 44, I agree completely. I think it will play itself out though although it may be a humbling experience for Joba. He is just cut out to be in the bullpen and I think as the season moves on, yes he still may throw his 150+ innings but he definitely won’t be starting come October in a 5 or 7 game series. The Joba situation will develop slowly over time, although Hughes could accelerate this process.

  17. V April 29th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    Joba’s splits (career): http://www.baseball-reference......r&t=p

    2008 would be a better gauge to compare in 1 season.

  18. Uncle Ellsworth April 29th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

    Joba will go 7 strong tonight and things will really get interesting.

  19. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    Ryan Perry replaced Mark Melancon as the closer for the University of Arizona.

    Their closer this year, Jason Stoffel, is another first round pick and has a chance to be in the bigs this year if he signs quickly.

    He hasn’t had as good a year as he had as a freshman and soph. Some scouts think he is just bored with school and is thinking too much about MLB.

    But, that kid has a power arm.

    I would LOVE for him to drop to the Yankees in the first round.

  20. m April 29th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    V,

    Thanks. If Perry gets Swisher out, then maybe that move ends up working out for them. But in hindsight, poor management bringing in the uber-rookie to face the Yankees. The Yankees, not spankees!

  21. jennifer April 29th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

    If Phil has that record and era no way does he go back down. As Pete said, he is looking for blog hits. :lol:

    **But for the sake of internet traffic (and my e-mail in-box), let’s say that Wang comes back in early June and Hughes is 4-1, 2.85. What then?

    You shake Phil’s hand, thank him for a job well done and send him back to Scranton until he is needed again.**

  22. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    Jeff NJ
    April 29th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
    Repeat from last thread for GB:

    “Sorry, but, I don’t keep track of such childish things as “Icalled it. I’m right.” It serves zero purpose. However, if it makes you feel better, have at it.

    And the name calling begins. I’m childish. By the way, your hero SJ44 referenced something from last year, is he childish?

    Anyway, I’m offerring my opinion on Wang. Truth of the matter is someone is always hurt and six starters are needed so the question is probably moot especially being that there is not much depth after those 6 starters.

    ============================================================

    Since you decided to drag this silliness over from the last post, here was my answer…Let’s end this crap now. My last response.

    ——————————————————————————————
    I didn’t call you childish. I said that keeping track of how many times you’re right (and, usually ignoring how often you’re wrong) is childish. Nobody cares how good your crystal ball is.

    Your/you’re/you = anybody…not just you.

  23. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    V,

    Could be. If that’s the case, then I’d like to know why its taking him this long to get in shape.

    I say this because last year at this time, he was throwing an easy 95-98. This year, its been a struggle.

    Perhaps, his shoulder injury is in the back of his mind or was more serious than the Yankees are letting on. I don’t know that to be the case, I’m just speculating.

    He just seems pedestrian to me right now. He’s better than what he has shown and he has been incredibly lucky so far this year.

    He’s not missing enough bats. If its just the evolution of him becoming a starter, that’s one thing.

    If he is holding back because he’s worried about his shoulder, that’s a red flag to me.

    Again, I have no idea what’s true or isn’t. The Yankees aren’t forthcoming to anybody when it comes to info about Joba.

    We just have to see how it plays out.

  24. Uncle Ellsworth April 29th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    jennifer
    the Berroa jokes were’t getting enough blog hits?

    BTW I think the jokes are hack – but the fact that Pete keeps making them is funny – the schtick if you will

  25. Rebecca-Optimist Prime April 29th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    “If the biggest problem the Yankees have this season is what to do with all of their great starting pitchers, the second biggest problem will be what day to have the parade. ”

    Quote of the day so far!

  26. no.27 April 29th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    I’m pretty sure Wang would have to clear waivers to pitch for AAA unless he’s hurt. That isn’t going to happen.

    If Hughes is 4-1 with a 2.85 ERA maybe it’s Joba that gets sent down to AAA. Either way, both guys need to get innings as starters.

    In 15 games as a starter Joba Chamberlain has pitched 81.1 and given up 27 earned runs. That’s a 2.99 ERA. His strikeout to walk ratio is 2.43 as a starter. Still, a 2.99 ERA is really, really, very, very good. His biggest problem is that he’s only averaged 5.5 innings per start but there’s no reason why he can’t get better at that.

  27. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    Mel, from last subject, in response to what Leyland was thinking.

    ————————————————————

    m
    April 29th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
    GB7,

    Robertson came in to clean up the mess. He was a starter, but maybe had health issues or squeezed out of the rotation?

    I would’ve sent him before the rook. Against the Yankees in a scoreless game? Though, Swisher hit a good pitch and it clearly could’ve been a different inning if he had gotten Swisher out.

    Boy, Berroa runs like the wind!
    ——————————————————————————————
    I can only assume that other than Molina, everyone else due up that inning was a switch hitter and he didn’t want to use his two left handers (Seay is the other) that soon. Would be interesting to know what Leyland’s real thinking was, but, it’s doubtful anybody had the guts to ask him. Are you volunteering for the one-way suicide mission?

  28. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    Pete,

    outstanding post… good follow-up by SJ44 re: Joba.

    Hughes was phenomenal last night but let’s not hand him the Cy Young just yet.

    I’d rather look at it as validation of what he is capable of when everything is clicking.

    I’m more concerned with Joba getting back on track. Whether or not he pitches like he did for much of last season could be the most important factor on this team.

    Do the Yankees have a #5 starter as good as most teams’ #1? Or do they have a #5 starter as good as most teams’ #3 or #4?

  29. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

    If Phil Hughes is 4-1 with a 2.85 ERA, I’d be shocked if goes back to Scranton. That would put him in the rotation for the season, IMO.

    When you watch the kid pitch now, its pretty clear, he gains nothing going back to AAA.

    His stuff is good enough to win at the major league level right now.

    Things like, endurance, finishing his pitches, consistency, etc, can be learned at the major league level.

    Hughes is ready right now unless he falls off the map the next 3-4 weeks.

    Given how he has pitched since the Fall, that seems unlikely to me.

  30. m April 29th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Okay, just saw Melancon with my own eyes for the first time. It’s like Mariano’s body with Pinocchio’s head. Weird.

    Kid looks tough as nails. He’s a keeper. Great insurance in case Bruney doesn’t return to form.

  31. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    Leyland, like Earl Weaver, Billy Martin and Lou Piniella may not always be forthcoming in his responses, and generally not printable, but, they are always entertaining.

  32. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    “If Phil Hughes is 4-1 with a 2.85 ERA, I’d be shocked if goes back to Scranton. That would put him in the rotation for the season, IMO.”

    ——-

    Can Hughes throw 200 innings this season?

    I don’t see it.

  33. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    One thing about Leyland and his use of players.

    He always tells Dombrowski, “If you give me a player, I’m going to use him in any situation. That’s why he is on the roster”.

    Frankly, that’s the way it should be.

    He doesn’t play the “veterans vs. rookies” game.

    If Anderson catches a routine flyball, the Yankees probably don’t score that inning. Or, score one run, tops.

    Ryan Perry will be the setup guy for the Tigers by June. Too talented and too good an arm not to be a successful guy in that ‘pen.

    Leyland will break him in the right way and if the kid listens, he will be fine.

  34. Harley April 29th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    SJ44 is right. The question is not how many starters do the Yankees have. The question is whether or not Joba Chamberlain can handle being a starter, or perhaps more importantly, if he is pitching with an injury now.

    No velocity. A lotta walks. He’s a shell of the pitcher he used to be. There’s got to be a reason for that, and I’m guessing it has nothing to do with him ‘holding back’ in order to pitch deeper into the ballgame.

  35. Nick in SF April 29th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    m: nothing wrong with a Mama Bear looking out for her cubs.

    Are you giving Philip Hughes the post-season start over Charles Carsten Sabathia? Because you’re more confident in him?

  36. m April 29th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    I’m with SJ. The only reason there’s any talk of Joba to the pen is that he’s clearly not the Joba we saw last season.

  37. He hate me April 29th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Sj44 100% correct about joba..
    My prediction…
    Joba on DL soon..
    Comes back late June in pen …
    Just like we were ” never getting tex” pete,,
    Joba will be in the BP!

  38. gianthinker April 29th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Joba WILL go back to the pen, eventually. Mark my words.

  39. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Question. Say Posada’s fly ball is not dropped in the 7th, the Yankees don’t get the 8 unearned runs and the inning ends at 2-0. Does Girardi still go to Melancon for the bottom half?

  40. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    SJ44,

    It seemed like at times Perry was getting too much movement on his two-seamer and he just needs to continue to get feel for his pitches. You could tell the stuff was there.

    As far as Hughes,

    here’s what Molina said “Hughes’s best pitch was his fastball, which Molina said had a better downward angle than it did last season, when it was flat.”

    IIRC, Hughes wasn’t really a groundball pitcher and I don’t remember a ton of groundballs last night. However, if he’s getting good downward movement on his fastball, wouldn’t that lead to more of them??

  41. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    Ouch. Orioles pitcher, Jamie Walker just stepped in a deep pile. Called for a balk last night, gave a expletive laced response….not such a big deal…until he added that he didn’t know if the umpire had money bet on the game or not.

    That’s going to cost some big money and probably bigger time.

  42. ditmars1929 April 29th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    If any of you live on the East Side of Manhattan, there is this really excellent hardware store on Second Avenue and 83rd Street. They sell ice picks. Strong, sturdy ones, too. I’m going to buy one before tonight’s game and slam it into my ear if the Joba to the bullpen dead horse issue crops up again. I’ll let you know if they are on sale.

  43. He hate me April 29th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    Oh ya, I like the jorge ” hammy” coverup bs for lack of effort..

  44. Yankeegirl49 April 29th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    And if Joba does go back to the pen..fine..AFTER he prove he either A-doesnt have the stuff to be consistently good/great as a starter or B-can’t stay healthy enough to be a starter.
    He hasn’t proven either yet.

  45. Uncle Ellsworth April 29th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    Steve B
    April 29th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
    Question. Say Posada’s fly ball is not dropped in the 7th, the Yankees don’t get the 8 unearned runs and the inning ends at 2-0. Does Girardi still go to Melancon for the bottom half?

    Yes Mel had just started warming before the yanks poured it on. at 2-0

  46. Rishi April 29th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....ng9/090429

    2nd baseman off to a great start…

    Cano is #3, Pedrioa is an honorable mention

  47. Mark-Cant Touch This April 29th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    I’am concerned with Joba’s velocity like some of you, I thought he was suppose to be hitting 93-95mph as a starter consistently. 90-92mph greatly reduced his chances of becoming a great pitcher. And maybe what Jorge Posada said is true that Joba’s arm cant handle being a starter.

  48. Peter Rabbit April 29th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    Pete, that’s your post of the season so far. You made all the right points– you should be on WFAN daily. DAILY.

    Can someone please make that happen? We need Pete to knock some sense into Mike Francessa.

  49. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    “No velocity. A lotta walks. He’s a shell of the pitcher he used to be. ”

    ——–

    I’d wait for more than a few starts before calling someone a “shell of the pitcher they used to be”

    The Yankees NEED Joba to be a starter. If he has to go to the bullpen due to injury concerns, it’s a major blow to the Yankees franchise.

    You don’t get arms like that, with #1 ace stuff, very often.

  50. Nick in SF April 29th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    Steve B: I think Hughes comes back out if the Yankees don’t rally for so long in that inning.

  51. m April 29th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    Nick,

    I wouldn’t give Hughes the ball in game 1, but yeah, I have confidence in Hughes’ ability to pitch in a big game (even though we haven’t seen many).

    Not saying Hughes is better than CC. It’s just a gut feeling that Hughes is a cool customer.

    (and for the record, I never said anything about CC in my original post. You said it, not me)

  52. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    “IIRC, Hughes wasn’t really a groundball pitcher and I don’t remember a ton of groundballs last night”

    FYI Dave, a devilish 6 groundouts, 6 airouts, 6 strikeouts last night for Hughes.

  53. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

    Boston Dave
    April 29th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
    SJ44,

    It seemed like at times Perry was getting too much movement on his two-seamer and he just needs to continue to get feel for his pitches. You could tell the stuff was there.

    As far as Hughes,

    here’s what Molina said “Hughes’s best pitch was his fastball, which Molina said had a better downward angle than it did last season, when it was flat.”

    IIRC, Hughes wasn’t really a groundball pitcher and I don’t remember a ton of groundballs last night. However, if he’s getting good downward movement on his fastball, wouldn’t that lead to more of them??

    ————————————————————

    BDave, last night, Hughes wasn’t especially particular on the outs…6 strikeouts, 6 ground ball outs, 6 flyouts.

  54. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Dave,

    Neither can Joba. Andy Pettitte didn’t even throw 200 innings last year.

    I think the 200 innings mark is a red herring when it comes to starting pitchers. Especially in the AL. I really do.

    I think the better question is, “When the time comes to make a decision, is Phil Hughes one of the 12 best pitchers on the Yankees”?

    If the answer is, “yes”, he stays. If the answer is, “no”, he is back in AAA.

    I have a feeling, and have had it since ST, that once Hughes got called up, he’s here to stay.

    His stuff is back to 2007 form, with the addition of a cutter. That makes him, very, very tough.

    I’m also tired of the training wheels on starting pitchers. Be careful? Yes. Baby them? No.

    I believe the first 3 years of Hughes’ development, he was babied bigtime by the Yankees.

    They were so desperate to have a “big-time prospect” of their own and were so afraid of him getting hurt, he didn’t learn how to pitch. He didn’t learn how to think and pitch his way out of jams.

    JMO but, its the wrong way to develop pitchers.

    If the Yankees were correct in this developmental philosophy, they would have a much better track record than they do of developing young arms.

    Then, unfortunately, the kid went through hell with injuries and ineffectiveness. He hit rock bottom last year and has had to dig his way back.

    When that happens to a young player, two things usually take place. They quit and never make it. Or, they get tougher and make it BIG.

    I think Hughes has a chance to fall into the latter catagory.

    Its why we all have to hope he’s so good for the next month, he stays on the roster.

  55. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    SteveB / GB,

    thanks

    way to mix it up Phil

  56. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    Pete,

    As much as I would rather not beat the dead horse, im afraid i have to. When Joba came up in ’07 as a set up man, he had an aura of invincability surrounding him. Hitters literally stepped up to the plate already defeated. He was cranking out 97MPH fastballs and making people look silly with his slider. Yes, he has the potential AND the ability to be a solid starter, but lets face it, there is no reliable bridge to Mariano, and GOD FORBID Mariano were to go down for any period of time, no one in that bullpen has the make-up to close games. Its the difference between Joba contributing to 40+ wins a year in the pen or Joba contributing AT BEST 20+ wins a year as a starter. Plus, he’s their best bet to replace Mariano when he retires. This argument will never end, but Im afraid he’s being sorely misused as a starter.

    Jon

  57. m April 29th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    Boston Dave,

    Don’t know if you meant that Hughes historically wasn’t a groundball pitcher?

    If that’s what you meant, then that would be incorrect. With the exception of his second stint in ’07 (coming back after hamstring/ankle injuries) Phil has always been a ground pitcher.

  58. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    “Cano is #3, Pedrioa is an honorable mention”

    2B suddenly a hot spot again in the AL with Kinsler, Roberts, a re-emerging Cano, Pedroia, Aaron Hill, etc.

  59. Paddy R April 29th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    very well said petey!

  60. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    Minor correction on Pettitte, he did throw 204 innings last year.

  61. S.o.S.(Hughes your Daddy again) April 29th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    If the biggest problem the Yankees have this season is what to do with all of their great starting pitchers, the second biggest problem will be what day to have the parade.

    —————–

    Pete the problems this season.

    1. What to do with all the great starting pitching?
    2. Who will be our bench warmer of the year?
    3. What day the parade will be?
    4. Who dances at the parade and guarantees a back to back title?
    5. ???

  62. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    SJ44,

    so you don’t subscribe to the 30-inning rule with young arms?

    Phil is just 22. If there is any validity to this rule, it definitely applies to him.

  63. Kill All Trolls April 29th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    eponymous

  64. panayioti April 29th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    I know the topic is pitching but this question is for SJ. In a thread yesterday you mentioned some changes that the Yankees need to consider to help their 40 man roster situation.

    You mentioned pulling Jeter in late innings for Pena for obvious defensive reasons. Would you consider a double switch a better option where Jeter moves to the DH, Pena moves to SS, and the DH (Matsui or Posada) is out of the line up? I can’t remember if this can even be done. I always forget the double switch rules because it is near non existent in the AL.

    But, I am thinking the from a hitting perspective, Jeter gives you more options than the long ball/slow running Posada/Matsui combination.

    Just curious on your thoughts. Appreciate it.

  65. S.o.S.(Hughes your Daddy again) April 29th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    For all the experts here.

    Are the Jays for real or are the the version of the Orioles a few years ago?

  66. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    “With the exception of his second stint in ‘07 (coming back after hamstring/ankle injuries) Phil has always been a ground pitcher.”

    ———

    does anybody have any #s to support this? I’m just curious…

  67. m April 29th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    Boston Dave,

    Is there panic in Boston re: Penny. Only 4 ER out of the 7, but I think that’s his 3rd or 4th stinker of the year.

  68. Nick in SF April 29th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    m: yes, you didn’t mention CC, but you mentioned that you’re giving your post-season starts to Hughes and AJ, and then you added Andy to your list. Are you using a 5-man rotation in your post-season? Are you in a best-of-9 series?

    I wonder where Hughes will be on his innings count by October.

  69. Paddy R April 29th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    but not sure you just shake phil’s hand when wang is ready to come back. it depends on how well he’s pitching. if “well” is 2-2, 4.00 era, ok. if “well” is 4-1, 2.85 like you say, wang better be throwing shutouts down in the minors before he takes his spot. i’m not bumping hughes if he’s pitching out of this world just because wang is ready to come back. i’m only bumping him if 1. wang forces the issue with performance or 2. hughes is just good or ok. but if he’s great, he keeps pitching no matter what. all hypothetical for now, as you said, i’m sure it will just play itself out. but hopefully it plays itself out with them all healthy and creating a good problem.

  70. Harold April 29th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    Joba should be a starter unless its proven health-wise that he cannot handle it. He’s not on the DL, so assume he’s healthy. If something crops up with his health, then maybe there’s a worthwhile discussion. He’s 23 years old, and considering how young he is and came up to the majors, assume for argument’s sake that he ENTERS his prime at 26. That gives him almost 3 full seasons, and probably at least 75 more starts till his prime. PATIENCE people and watch to see if he can develop into an Ace. Things like that take time.

  71. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    1- Goose Gossage never panned out as a starter, HOF reliever. Let Joba continue his audition as a starter, it’s only fair, just pray he doesn’t hurt himself.

    2- If Hughes continues to impress, he is not going back down,Pete with his devil’s advocate keep the blog traffic flowing schtick.

    3- Can anybody tell me why Leyland even pitched to Posada last night with 1st base open and dp machine Jeter on deck?

  72. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    Boston Dave
    April 29th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
    SteveB / GB,

    thanks

    way to mix it up Phil

    ————————————————————

    Yeah, I’ll take that 3 way split any time from any pitcher. This is the same team, or better team that has hammered him in his 2 others starts against the Tigers. Loved how he handled the middle of that order, and Granderson, too. Granderson was like 3-5 with 2 homers off of Hughes before last night.

  73. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    “2B suddenly a hot spot again in the AL with Kinsler, Roberts, a re-emerging Cano, Pedroia, Aaron Hill, etc.”

    —–

    seriously… Kinsler is going to be one heck of a hitter.

    don’t forget Howie Kendrick… man. Lots of quality 2b in the AL.

  74. Shamik April 29th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    I don’t completely agree with you Pete. A big reason why we have lost a lot of these games is because the pen is hurting. If we have Hughes, Kennedy, and Wang pitching well, we can start them and let Joba go in the pen. In the process he can get groomed to take over as the closer later on. Just my opinion.

  75. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    “Steve B: I think Hughes comes back out if the Yankees don’t rally for so long in that inning.”

    Nick:

    Thought Hughes was done no matter what. His last pitch was #99. I don’t envision them going to much more than 105-110 a start with him.

    Really trying to get a feel for how Girardi felt about Melancon. 10-0 in the 7th is obviously garbage time. Interested to see if he’d have gone with him at 2-0.

  76. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    Dave,

    I don’t know if the Yankees “need” Joba to be a starter.

    I think they “need” Joba to be the Joba we have seen in the past.

    If that’s as a starter? Fine by me.

    If he has to go back to the bullpen because he either physically can’t handle being a starter or he is just more dominant in that role? Also, fine by me.

    I think if Hughes projects out, there is less of a “need” for Joba to remain in the rotation at all costs.

    I keep going back to one thing none of us know the answer to…..How healthy is he?

    When you ask the Yankees about Joba, there is information shutdown on him. I can ask certain people about Jeter, Arod, CC, etc, and folks give up info.

    Joba? Nothin’ but standard answers. No insight.

    I think one reason is they are sick of the “Joba to the bullpen” debate.

    I also think that if they are in a position to put him back there, they are going to give serious consideration to it.

    Just my take on it. I could be 100% off base here.

    But, I think if certain conditions take place, the return of Wang, Hughes showing he belongs, and the belief starting is not in the long term best interests of Joba for health reasons, he’s going to be back in the bullpen.

  77. Rishi April 29th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    Girardi said Phil was going to come back out but the inning went too long in the post game last night

  78. Harold April 29th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    Pete-
    Can we get your thoughts on the ticket price changes? Considering how you touted how significant of an issue it was, I’m interested to hear what you think about the price adjustment.

  79. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    “Boston Dave,

    Is there panic in Boston re: Penny. Only 4 ER out of the 7, but I think that’s his 3rd or 4th stinker of the year.”

    ——–

    I haven’t really talked or listened to anyone yet today. Because they had won 11 straight, there wasn’t much evaluation going on. They were just riding the winning streak and laughing at the Yankees losing streak.

    I said it from the first game I saw Penny pitch when his #s were good and he won the game, his stuff didn’t impress me and he would get hit hard.

    I personally expect Buchholz to be back within a month but I suppose it could be Bowden if they don’t feel Clay is ready. I think it’s Buchholz though.

    I wonder what ESPN will say about their Penny/Burnett comparisons by mid-season.

  80. m April 29th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    Nick,

    Yes, I did infer it. I don’t know what order I’d go in, but Andy’s always pitched well. AJ’s seems to like the big stage. And Hughesy is just such a cutie. ;)

    Oh, and we keep playing until we reach the majority. New MELB rules.

  81. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    S.o.S.(Hughes your Daddy again)
    April 29th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
    For all the experts here.

    Are the Jays for real or are the the version of the Orioles a few years ago?

    ————————————————————

    Can’t speak for anyone but this expert, but, I don’t worry about the Orioles and Jays….strictly for the birds.

    actually, I think the pitching issues are going to catch up to Toronto by mid season. Their offense is going well right now, and should be good, just not this good. Orioles offense is good…real good. almost no pitching.

  82. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    “I don’t completely agree with you Pete. A big reason why we have lost a lot of these games is because the pen is hurting. If we have Hughes, Kennedy, and Wang pitching well, we can start them and let Joba go in the pen. In the process he can get groomed to take over as the closer later on. Just my opinion.”

    Bingo. Nailed it Shamik. Such a simple concept.

  83. Andrew April 29th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    If Joba is throwing free and easy with velocity tonight/soon, does that quell all this worry about his shoulder and get chalked up to him pacing himself? It’s possible that he’s experimenting with taking a little off his heater because he thinks it will a) make him focus on his breaking pitches more b) save his arm strength for later in the season when he needs it or c) is scared that throwing his usual way will hurt him.

    But if it’s fear, then why would he just be comfortable in airing it out coming out of the bullpen? Even though it’s only 20 pitches over 1-2 innings as opposed to 100 over 6-7, he could still worry himself out of throwing full-tilt if he has that mental hurdle re: his arm’s health to get over.

  84. Run Gardner Run April 29th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    Trade Wang for prospects when he comes back and gets a few starts under his belt

  85. Harold April 29th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Joba’s role shouldn’t be contingent on Phil Hughes or CMW or perceived need. The Yankees have enough money to build a complete ball club, they SHOULDN’T need to change roles based on an uncertain future need (obviously, the execution of that is up to the front office). If Joba’s long-term ceiling is a #1 front-of-the-line starter, then he should be given every chance to reach that ceiling, which will take time.

  86. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    I also wonder how long it would take to put Joba in the closers role if Mariano got hurt. Sure they would try everyone else, with the thought they better get Joba ready in the event of failure.

  87. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    SJ44,

    Ok – they may not “need” him there in the sense that their rotation would be weak or lacking.

    They need him there because you just don’t get guys with the realistic potential to be shutdown staff aces.

    Of course he needs to pitch better than this. But I’m not willing to end the Joba as a starter “experiment” after 4 starts or even 30 starts.

    It’s worth finding out what’s wrong with his arm, or mentally, and fixing it, IMO, so they he can remain a starter.

  88. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    You can’t double switch out of the DH spot.

    Once you remove the DH, you lose the spot and the pitcher has to bat.

    Dave,

    I subscribe to the Jim Kaat/Johnny Sain philosophy of pitching. You build up arm strength by THROWING, and throwing a lot.

    The “30 inning Rule”, while a nice marketing invention by Tom Verducci, actually has pitchers throwing less. I’m not sure that’s best for all pitchers.

    It was also done for insurance reasons. Basically, its a way for teams to get their pitchers insured because its a “safety mechanism” to insurance companies.

    There are so many variables at play. Some of the college pitchers have been abused by their coaches. So, the 30 Inning Rule may be nice for them.

    A guy like CC Sabathia, whose frame and strength are things guys like Kaat love? He is going to get better by throwing more innings and not less innings.

    I think baseball has become too fixated on pitch counts and “30 Inning Rules” and stuff like that.

    Hell, there are more pitchers on the DL, suffering from serious injuries, than ever.

    I don’t think there is a tried and true formula. I think its something you improve upon by doing more and stretching out your arm.

    JMO on it. I know others have a different view.

  89. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    “Trade Wang for prospects when he comes back and gets a few starts under his belt”

    He won’t get you A list prospects at this point. Too many question marks and too close to making real money.

  90. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    “Joba’s role shouldn’t be contingent on Phil Hughes or CMW or perceived need.”

    ———-

    Harold,

    I think you are spot on with that post.

  91. A-List April 29th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    If Hughes is outperforming Joba, then it should be Joba who goes to Scranton.

    If Hughes is 4-1 with a 2.85, good BB/K ratio, pitches deep into games while Joba continues to look just “ok”, how do you rationalize sending Hughes down?

    If you don’t want to move Joba to the pen, fine. Then send him down. But if Hughes is one of our most effective pitchers, he isin’t going anywhere.

  92. The Stranger April 29th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    Did you ever just ‘get a feeling’ about a player? You may have have never seen him play in person, but something almost preternatural tells you he’s going to be an important piece in the overall puzzle.

    I had that feeling in the late ’90s when the Yanks signed Chien-Ming Wang (he called Tiger Wang at the time). Something told me he would be a very important piece in time, and it certainly became so.

    I’m getting that feeling again. The player this time:

    Wilkin De La Rossa.

    Five years from now he will be an important piece to the puzzle.

  93. Hokiehill April 29th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    Pete, I wish people would listen to you on posts like this.

    A bunch of the same people that were mocking the bridge jumpers after game 1 against Baltimore were some of the same people clammering for Joba to go to the pen because of Hughes’ 1 good start!

    Talking the pros and cons of each player and each move made by the team and pondering what if scenarios is exactly why there is any discussion at all so I can’t fault people for wondering “what if”, but when people start jumping off bridges after 1 loss or crowning guys like Hughes as the new Ace of the Yankees after 1 game things just get silly. I’m glad no one on this board (myself included) run the Yankees…what a roller coaster that would be!

  94. Andrew April 29th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    “Are the Jays for real or are the the version of the Orioles a few years ago?”

    I would say Orioles of a few years ago because their pitching staff is decimated by injury and even regardless of the injuries, their rotation isn’t that impressive past Halladay. Add that to the fact that their lineup is solid and I think they will fade once they start playing the Yankees and Red Sox more.

  95. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    The latest on Ian Kennedy’s injury.

    From Chad Jenning’s Blog.

    Just got a quick email from Ian Kennedy. Sounds like nothing is certain with that numbness in his throwing hand.

    “We don’t have anything concrete yet,” Kennedy wrote. “I’m having more tests done tomorrow.”

    Apparently we’re all going to have to wait and see.

    ————————————————————

    One only hopes that it’s a minor issue and not what would be the worst case scenerio (ruptured tendon).

  96. S.o.S.(Hughes your Daddy again) April 29th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    GB,
    You answered my question but i was referring to the year 05 i believe where the O’s had a big lead in June(9 games or more)and ended up finishing in 3rd. I thought maybe the Jays are that version and will start cooling off by next month.

  97. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    DAve,

    Agreed if he can physically handle it.

    Here’s the thing…..

    I asked somebody connected to the Yankees who would close if Mariano wasn’t ready for the season or got hurt during the season. That person said, “Joba” immediately.

    This entire, “Joba Debate” actually would have more legs if he was deciding on being a closer or starter.

    Setup guy? That’s where its murky.

    However, health has to be at play here and that’s the variable none of us know for sure.

    Until we know that, its impossible to debate the subject on an intelligent level.

  98. panayioti April 29th, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    Didn’t they say on the YES broadcast or may it was ESPN that Nolan Ryan has ordered his minor league coaches not to track pitch counts because he feels it is hurting pitchers?

  99. Kernal April 29th, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    Bottom line,

    We spent $423 million this winter to make the postseason. The best 25 men should be on the roster, period.

    Anything else sends a bad message to everybody. Tells them that development comes first, winning comes second.

  100. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    SJ44,

    I agree to an extent, however, I do believe there should be some limitation.

    The “30-inning rule” doesn’t need to be an iron-clad law but the philosophy behind it is quite possibly sound.

    If the Yankees have the luxury of having 6 starters this season, I’d like to see them use that to their advantage as far as innings-caps go.

  101. Nick in SF April 29th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    m: AJ seems to like the big stage, but we’ve yet to see evidence that the big stage truly likes AJ. Hopefully they’ll get along well when they need to.

    I don’t think Girardi has the foresight to start lining up his post-season rotation yet, so we may get Hughes starting that first game by default. ;)

  102. Andrew April 29th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    “One only hopes that it’s a minor issue and not what would be the worst case scenerio (ruptured tendon).”

    When did the Kennedy thing make the jump from blister to numbness to now potential major injury? I remember hearing that he got taken out of his start the other day, and I feel like I read that it was a blister problem at first.

    Numbness is always scary. It always makes me think David Cone in 1996 and how crazy that was, so I hope it turns out to be something more minor than that for IPK. Ruptured tendon, though–wouldn’t he have been unable to even throw the ball at all if that had been the problem? I think that happened to Wainwright of the Cards last year and he was in major pain, but I haven’t heard it described that way for IPK. Hopefully it’s nothing serious.

  103. Mr. Faded Glory April 29th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    “One good start by Hughes in April should not start the “We need Joba in the bullpen” nonsense. ”


    Don’t worry, Pete. John Harper started a pre-emptive strike in the Daily News yesterday by declaring that if the Yankees don’t move Joba to the ‘pen, they have “no shot” at a championship.

  104. Doris from Rego Park April 29th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    If anyone is interested in some Q&A regarding my trip to Dr. Stuart Hershon, just let me know…

  105. sam April 29th, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    Anyone know if there are any restrictions on tailgating at the lots at the new stadium?

  106. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    S.o.S.(Hughes your Daddy again)
    April 29th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
    GB,
    You answered my question but i was referring to the year 05 i believe where the O’s had a big lead in June(9 games or more)and ended up finishing in 3rd. I thought maybe the Jays are that version and will start cooling off by next month.

    ————————————————————

    That’s pretty much who I had in mind. Just adding that this year’s Orioles have that Texas style team….Unreal offense and zero pitching at home. Difficult to judge either outside of their home parks. Hard to judge their real pitching and real offense.

    I only added that extra stuff as a bonus to you. We experts are like that.

  107. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    doris…

    is dr hershorn still in westbury?

  108. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    Nobody is taking an extreme view on moving Joba to the bullpen or awarding the Cy Young to Phil Hughes after one start.

    If you read most of the posts, they are all discussing moves contingent on other things happening.

    That’s what you do on blogs.

    Hell, that’s what baseball people do in their front offices everyday.

    Why do you think baseball blogs are popular with baseball people? Its because very often discussions take place on blogs that mirror the discussions that take place in front offices.

    If you don’t think people associated with the Yankees are discussing, “what if” possibilities based on what they saw last night from Hughes, you are kidding yourself.

    It doesn’t mean they will put an action plan into place immediately on any front.

    It just means that they MAY have some options available to them in a month or so they thought were less likely 2 weeks ago.

  109. DT April 29th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    “One only hopes that it’s a minor issue and not what would be the worst case scenario (ruptured tendon).”

    Scary stuff, until they know for sure.
    Not trying to bring any correlation to this situation – but wasn’t that Coney’s symptoms when he had the aneurysm ?

  110. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    “I asked somebody connected to the Yankees who would close if Mariano wasn’t ready for the season or got hurt during the season. That person said, “Joba” immediately.”

    ——-

    I just can’t agree with that. If Joba’s future is as a starter, he needs to be treated like every other starter.

    He needs to be given a chance to prove or disprove that he can make it as a dominant starting pitcher.

    There isn’t another starter in the league (that I can think of) that would become the team’s closer if the starting closer went down.

    Joba shouldn’t be an exception. Treat him the same as Josh Beckett, Josh Johnson, etc.

  111. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    “John Harper started a pre-emptive strike in the Daily News yesterday by declaring that if the Yankees don’t move Joba to the ‘pen, they have “no shot” at a championship.”

    …and he’s absolutely right. What’s the point of getting 7 innings from your starter if you can’t keep the lead/get the ball to Mo? Whats more, what happens when Mo retires? J.B. Cox? Throw craploads of money at the best reliever on the market? Sorry folks, but reliable closers are a FAR rarer commodity than reliable starters. Joba/Mo = Mo/Wetteland. Remember in ’96, those guys made it a 7 inning ballgame and that exactly what Joba/Mo would do again. Just MHO.

  112. S.o.S.(Hughes your Daddy again) April 29th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    I only added that extra stuff as a bonus to you. We experts are like that.

    —————
    gb,
    Cant argue about getting extra deleted bonus scenes at no cost. Much appreciated my friend.

  113. Mo April 29th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    “Sorry folks, but reliable closers are a FAR rarer commodity than reliable starters.”

    Then why, pray tell, do starters get paid more?

  114. kill.schill(ing) April 29th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    PETE ABRAHAM…. BRAVO!!!

  115. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    “Sorry folks, but reliable closers are a FAR rarer commodity than reliable starters”

    ————-

    And if all we can say about Joba as a starter in a year or two is that he is “reliable”, you may have a point.

    Otherwise, he is talented enough to be a “dominant” starter which is FAR more valuable than a reliever.

    I guess you think the Mets should have made Johan Santana their closer when Wagner went down last season?

  116. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    Just another thought..

    Did the Red Sox get Smoltz as possible insurance for Papelbon. He hasn’t been himself as a closer this year. Just a thought.

  117. all sorts of riffraff April 29th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Here’s a thought process I haven’t seen yet on here…

    If…

    1) Hughes is 7-1 when Wang is ready to come back
    2) Wang is READY to be the Wang we know
    3) Joba continues to struggle…

    then why not…

    4) Joba goes to AAA and continues to start.

    With all this talk of “babying,” we sure love to baby Joba on this forum.

    If he goes to AAA, really, you’ll all still be able to wear your Joba shirts to the stadium. :)

  118. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Andrew
    April 29th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
    “One only hopes that it’s a minor issue and not what would be the worst case scenerio (ruptured tendon).”

    When did the Kennedy thing make the jump from blister to numbness to now potential major injury? I remember hearing that he got taken out of his start the other day, and I feel like I read that it was a blister problem at first.

    Numbness is always scary. It always makes me think David Cone in 1996 and how crazy that was, so I hope it turns out to be something more minor than that for IPK. Ruptured tendon, though—wouldn’t he have been unable to even throw the ball at all if that had been the problem? I think that happened to Wainwright of the Cards last year and he was in major pain, but I haven’t heard it described that way for IPK. Hopefully it’s nothing serious.

    ————————————————————

    The blister was an ingame speculation. It’s seldom that a guy that cruising along, one out from a win gets pulled from a game because of a blister, especially when it happens with a count on the batter. If it was a blister, he’d have stayed for that last at bat.

  119. S.o.S.(Hughes your Daddy again) April 29th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Speaking of what if’s.

    Do you guys think we can get a bullpen arm or a position player for Igawa from an n.l. team? We are spending all this money on him and he has no place on the big league team. Might as well get something for him. I mean what does a minor league pitcher of the year get you these days?

  120. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Joltin Joe,

    Lots of talk about Papelbon in Boston.

    Here’s an article from the Providence Journal:

    ” One area of concern in Red Sox fans’ eyes is Jonathan Papelbon. The closer may lead the American League in saves, with five, and own a 1.93 ERA, but he clearly is not blowing away hitters like he has in the past.

    Papelbon admits he hasn’t been close to perfect, but he has a reason for it. In order to place less stress on his arm over the long season, he’s adopted a slight change in his delivery where he sets his hands higher against his body during his windup. This helps spark more leg drive in his pitches.”

    http://www.projo.com/redsox/co.....f0bc5.html

  121. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    Riffraff…

    Best case scenario-Yanks make playoffs. Joba meets innings limit. Starters 1-4 are in place. Joba goes to pen. How isn’t this his destiny?

  122. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    S.o.S.(Hughes your Daddy again)
    April 29th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
    I only added that extra stuff as a bonus to you. We experts are like that.
    ———————-
    gb,
    Cant argue about getting extra deleted bonus scenes at no cost. Much appreciated my friend.

    ————————————————————

    My pleasure S.o.s. I’ll find some other bonus material. If I can’t find it, I’ll make it up.

  123. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    Joba at 95-98 with dominating stuff=potential to be a dominating starting pitcher.

    Joba at 90-91, not missing bats=pedestrian starter.

    Again, health is the question we don’t have the answer to.

    If its like Papelbon, can pitch in 20-40 pitch intervals but can’t hold up over the course of a season, do you press on with him as a starter?

    Or, do you get him back to the fire breathing, snorting dominant guy emptying the tank out of the ‘pen?

    Again, I don’t know the answers to these questions.

    Joba can go out tonight and throw 7 dominant innings and quell a lot of talk.

    But, it is something that bears watching as the season unfolds.

  124. New Brandon April 29th, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Think Kennedy will ever get a shot at the big show again?

  125. Andrew April 29th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    GB,

    Okay, I didn’t realize that it was just speculation re: the blister thing. Pretty much expecting the worst now for him, then, i.e. a long-term injury. It is a shame both professionally for him and for the Yankees because he seemed like he was next in line now that Hughes is up in terms of #6 starter and I wouldn’t have minded him getting a shot to redeem himself at some point this season.

  126. S.A.--Honk if you hate hobbits April 29th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Crossing my fingers we have a kick butt outing from Joba today.

  127. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    “Do you guys think we can get a bullpen arm or a position player for Igawa from an n.l. team?”

    Can’t imagine any team who’d want to pay $4M for him. Can’t imagine any would want to give something up to get him either. NL or otherwise

  128. randy l. April 29th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    “Leyland, like Earl Weaver, Billy Martin and Lou Piniella may not always be forthcoming in his responses, and generally not printable, but, they are always entertaining.”

    gb7-
    even if they were printable, you’d probably misspell them any way .

    you know who else was highly entertaining in his unprintable responses- clete boyer. he seemed quiet on the surface, but it was no coincidence he and billy were best friends.

    back in the late 80′s,in a tense first day of first day of a season locker room for a team with a new gm who was latino and who had added a large number of latino players to the team , everyone was being polite but there was some tension in the air when clete in his yankee underwear and tee shirt with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth walked into the center of the locker room and yelled out over everyone” when did the *&%$#%& banana boat arrive?”.

    clete was promptly pummeled with a mountain of sanitaries, old socks, jock straps , towels etc, as the locker room erupted in laughter from everyone in there. players like jose crux, Joaquín Andújar, cesar cedeno,, paul casanova,ron washington, jerry royster,george vukovitch,jim morrison, garth iorg , the cliburn brothers, rick petersen etc had the ice broken with one classic irreverent moment by clete boyer.

    there’s always a place in baseball for the old timers like clete and jim leyland.

  129. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Boston Dave-

    My thoughts exactly. Smoltz might not be able to withstand the rigors of starting again but Sox brass look at him, like Saito as a potential closer.

  130. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Joba isn’t going to AAA. You don’t send one of your best pitchers to AAA in order to get in innings.

    That’s where folks go off the deep end with innings limit stuff.

    Joba is one the best half dozen pitchers on the team. He isn’t going to AAA anytime soon.

  131. saucY April 29th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    GreenBeret7
    April 29th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
    Ouch. Orioles pitcher, Jamie Walker just stepped in a deep pile. Called for a balk last night, gave a expletive laced response….not such a big deal…until he added that he didn’t know if the umpire had money bet on the game or not.

    That’s going to cost some big money and probably bigger time.

    ———–

    i love this. i could see a fine. i’d be upset if he did time though.

  132. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Boston Dave,

    Joba was nothing short of dominant as a set up man. He’s the only guy that has pitched out of out bullpen besides Mariano that could be even be considered as a candidate to close ball games. Joba has had one, maybe two starts which would be considered dominating. With prospects like Hughes, Kennedy and Brackman, plus hugh signing like CC and AJ, the Yanks are not short on starters. They are, however, most short on reliable relievers. And yes, I think the Mets should send Santana to the bullpen for his own sake, wins may come easier for him there ;-)

  133. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    “Joba at 95-98 with dominating stuff=potential to be a dominating starting pitcher.

    Joba at 90-91, not missing bats=pedestrian starter.

    Again, health is the question we don’t have the answer to.”

    ———

    SJ44,

    of course. the problem I have is with the idea that we just assume he cannot handle being a starter, without considerable effort to identify the issue, and move him to the pen to stay.

    With the type of talent he has, it’s worth taking as much time as it takes to figure out why his velocity is down.

    If that means he goes through the Wang treatment, so be it.

    I’m not willing to concede that he has failed as a starter already, as many are.

  134. Bronx Jeers April 29th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    So does Joba have some extra incentive to showcase his skills after Hughes outstanding performance last night?

    Just to throw it out there, 6 shutout innings would give him a 2.86 ERA.

  135. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    “Joba has had one, maybe two starts which would be considered dominating.”

    ———-

    newsflash:

    Joba has a 2.43 ERA in 15 starts over the last two seasons.

  136. E-gawa April 29th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    “Didn’t they say on the YES broadcast or may it was ESPN that Nolan Ryan has ordered his minor league coaches not to track pitch counts because he feels it is hurting pitchers?”

    Yeah. he started doing that a few years ago.

  137. Uncle Ellsworth April 29th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    just some stats

    yanks are no longer last in ERA – 28th
    thanks Phil

    Yanks are in the MLB top ten in every offensive catagory.

  138. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    “Think Kennedy will ever get a shot at the big show again?”

    Question isn’t really “if” as much as it is “where” IMO. Doesn’t seem likely it will be with the Yankees, but he’s good enough to be a lower end of the rotation guy in some cities.

  139. Jerkface? April 29th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    In 2008, even with his dominating stuff, Joba did not look super ultra dominating in the bullpen.

  140. saucY April 29th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    sadly, i doubt Asdrubal makes that list without the series at YS :|

  141. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    DT
    April 29th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
    “One only hopes that it’s a minor issue and not what would be the worst case scenario (ruptured tendon).”

    Scary stuff, until they know for sure.
    Not trying to bring any correlation to this situation – but wasn’t that Coney’s symptoms when he had the aneurysm ?

    ————————————————————

    yeah, not sure that it was so much in the finger, though. He had pretty much the same issue that shut down Whitey Ford’s career after 1965. Both had trouble controlling pitches because the ball felt slick, because their fingers were cold…..no circulation. Both had arterial issues near the shoulder area. Ford dealt with his by keeping a small bottle of hot water in his back pocket. He also kept a small bottle of talcum powder and liquid deorderant back there to add to “natural moisture”.

  142. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    I guess when I said dominant starter I should have qualified it that he wouldn’t pitch 4 hit shutouts every time.

    A mid-2′s ERA is dominant, IMO.

  143. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    liquid ***deodorant***

  144. Laura - There's nothing you have that I need, I can breathe! April 29th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    I’m probably the only person that listens to the ESPN Baseball Podcast. Peter Pascarelli, who is a regular, says that if Hughes is still pitching well when CMW gets back that Joba will be in the pen. Not sure who told him that, but it will be interesting to see if it comes true.

  145. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    SJ44-

    It seems like Joba is learning to be a starter where he was a natural as a reliever. This “experiment” to try him as a starter is logical but potentially dangerous, to his health.It seems inevitable he will be back in the pen. Didn’t Mariano and Goose come up as starters? It seems they have the luxury to try him out as a starter, but out of neccesity, will go back to the pen.

  146. Uncle Ellsworth April 29th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    saucy
    did yo see Sugar?

  147. hardwired April 29th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    What impressed me most about Phil Hughes’ performance last night was the way he adjusted to Derryl Cousins’ teacup-sized strike zone.

    I was impressed, but not surprised. He’s a rare individual.

  148. all sorts of riffraff April 29th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    SJ – So Joba can’t go to AAA, but Hughes can? This is the logic that escapes me.

    To be honest, I don’t look forward to either of them going to the minors, and still visualize them leading our staff in the next few years. When we talk about Hughes still being young and, like you said, needing to fight and work hsi way back up, etc…..everything that goes for him SHOULD be able to apply to Joba Chamberlain as well.

    Hell…..some folks don’t have a problem here with a two-time 19-game winner at the major league level spending some time in AAA.

    If, and only if, Joba continues to have issues, and all those other scenarios I listed play themselves out, I’d rather him rebuild his confidence in his arm while pitching starter’s innings in AAA than, like you correctly said, risking injury and stalling his development in the bullpen.

  149. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    “I guess when I said dominant starter I should have qualified it that he wouldn’t pitch 4 hit shutouts every time.

    A mid-2’s ERA is dominant, IMO.”

    Perfectly reasonable argument. I’d rather see him contribute to 40+ wins a year as a setup man being groomed to replace the irreplacable then watch him contribute 15-20 wins a year.

  150. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    How was Sugar?

  151. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    randy l.
    April 29th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
    “Leyland, like Earl Weaver, Billy Martin and Lou Piniella may not always be forthcoming in his responses, and generally not printable, but, they are always entertaining.”

    gb7-
    even if they were printable, you’d probably misspell them any way .

    you know who else was highly entertaining in his unprintable responses- clete boyer. he seemed quiet on the surface, but it was no coincidence he and billy were best friends.

    ————————————————————

    boyer was a gem. He had a great teacher. He sat at the knee of Aesop Mantle. Mantle’s stories are legendary. None of which would be printable. Something else Boyer was….the greatest fielding third baseman that i ever saw.

  152. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    They aren’t in the Top Ten in hitting with RISP, hitting with the bases loaded, or hitting with RISP and 2 outs, 3 pretty important stats.

    Part of the problem with quoting Yankee offensive stats is that if you don’t watch the games, they don’t give you a real view of the offense. Its an all or nothing offense.

    Its not consistent enough at all and hasn’t been for the last 2 years.

    Wonderful numbers on the surface. Yet, when you dig into the numbers, you see failing numbers that show why they lose certain games.

    Dave,

    I definitely am not one who believes Joba has “failed” as a starter. To the contrary, he has pitched very well as a starter.

    My concern is his lack of velocity and movement on his pitches. That’s the only reason why I’ve even brought up the discussion of moving him back to the ‘pen.

    I might add that IF they were to ever move him back, it has to be for good. He has to be groomed at that point to take over for Mariano as the closer when Mariano retires.

    They can’t keep going back and forth with him, that’s for sure.

  153. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    “Joba has a 2.43 ERA in 15 starts over the last two seasons.”

    He’s been lousy this year, Dave. Lousy and a little lucky. Those 15 starts encompass two different Joba’s.

    The guy we’re seeing this year, and I include spring training, is at best ordinary. Diminished velocity and poor command. Those two issues can’t be ignored.

  154. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    “This “experiment” to try him as a starter is logical but potentially dangerous, to his health.It seems inevitable he will be back in the pen.”

    ———–

    Joba as a starter is not an experiment. C’mon now.

    potentially dangerous? LOL

  155. eric in queens April 29th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    So the Joba debate has finally become logical (thanks SJ44)! We need the dominant force that inspired “Joba Rules” shirts, and left hitters terrified. If that’s as a starter or in the bullpen, who cares? The point is to get it out of him.

    However, while Joba’s personal career is best served by being a dominant starter the Yankees in ’09 are will be better with a dominant Joba in the pen. If he doesn’t become dominant again it doesn’t matter where he pitches.

    This debate isn’t over. Not even close.

  156. raymagnetic April 29th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    “Yanks are in the MLB top ten in every offensive catagory.”

    I find this hard to believe considering all the chatter the past couple of days about how bad the Yankee offense is.

  157. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    “A mid-2’s ERA is dominant, IMO.”

    That’s about what Matsuzaka posted last year. You think he was dominant????

    Me neither.

  158. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    Why would that logic escape you? Joba is a better pitcher than Phil Hughes.

    Joba is one of the best pitchers on team. Only 4 starters and Mariano are even in the conversation when it comes to pitchers better than Joba.

    Phil is coming off a winless season in the majors last year.

    They aren’t on the same planet as far as pitchers go.

  159. raymagnetic April 29th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    “Perfectly reasonable argument. I’d rather see him contribute to 40+ wins a year as a setup man being groomed to replace the irreplacable then watch him contribute 15-20 wins a year.”

    Please stop it, you’re embarassing yourself.

  160. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    ““Joba has a 2.43 ERA in 15 starts over the last two seasons.”

    He’s been lousy this year, Dave. Lousy and a little lucky. Those 15 starts encompass two different Joba’s.

    The guy we’re seeing this year, and I include spring training, is at best ordinary. Diminished velocity and poor command. Those two issues can’t be ignored.”

    ———-

    Here is the point. We have already seen what Joba can do as a starter.

    He is not pitching as well as he can SO FAR.

    So what do you do?

    Concede that last year and his entire career as a starter was a complete fluke and move him to the bullpen?

    Or give him enough time to figure it out, work with him, find out if there is an injury, etc??

    Some people are so knee-jerk to everything it’s sickening. Every day it’s a complete flip-flop.

  161. saucY April 29th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Uncle Ellsworth
    April 29th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
    saucy
    did yo see Sugar?

    #–#–#–#–#–#–#–#

    YES! i was getting to this Uncle :)

    i don’t think i’m much of a movie critic, and don’t want to give anything away. but i thought it was fantastic! seemed like a very realistic portrayal of what so many go thru in trying to succeed in baseball. seemed like it covered a lot of aspects, while not overloaded with stuff, if that makes sense.

    i had to stop myself from cheering in the theater after Sugar got a strikout. it probably wouldn’t have mattered though, since i think there were only 4 other people in the theater. (the theater rules. $7.50 movies and $1.50 for a diet root beer :) )

  162. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    saucY
    April 29th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
    GreenBeret7
    April 29th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
    Ouch. Orioles pitcher, Jamie Walker just stepped in a deep pile. Called for a balk last night, gave a expletive laced response….not such a big deal…until he added that he didn’t know if the umpire had money bet on the game or not.

    That’s going to cost some big money and probably bigger time.
    —————-

    i love this. i could see a fine. i’d be upset if he did time though.

    ————————————————————

    Make no mistake, though….walker will do time. There’s a lot of things you can do or say…questioning the integrety of an umpire by mentioning betting on the game isn’t one of them. One other thing…Walker was pretty well thought of as a good guy by umpires and everyone. He’ll never get another close call break again.

  163. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    ““A mid-2’s ERA is dominant, IMO.”

    That’s about what Matsuzaka posted last year. You think he was dominant????

    Me neither.”

    ————-

    Are you really that clueless?

  164. m April 29th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    It’s early in the season, but at some point you’ll have to be concerned if Joba’s stuff doesn’t improve. You can’t simply look at results (ERA, wins) here. What you need to look for is if he’s getting stronger. 4 starts into the season, we shouldn’t see a guy who looks like he’s still in spring training instead of his usual dominating self.

    There’s a “What’s wrong with Joba?” story on espn.com.

    Rishi might need to “translate” for us. ;)

  165. 011100110110110101101011 April 29th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    interesting bit from Melancon’s wiki pg:

    “He helped capture the National Championship in baseball, winning the clinching game after doubling off Ian Kennedy earlier in the double elimination tournament.”

    Star football player as well. The kid is a stud.

  166. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Didn’t Posada say Joba will breakdown if left as a starter?
    Why isn’t this an experiment or audition as a starter? Is there any guarantee he will succeed? He can always go back to the pen if he doesn’t damage his arm as he did last year. Maybe that’s why his velocity is down this year.

  167. Uncle Ellsworth April 29th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    SJ44
    April 29th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
    They aren’t in the Top Ten in hitting with RISP, hitting with the bases loaded, or hitting with RISP and 2 outs, 3 pretty important stats.

    Part of the problem with quoting Yankee offensive stats is that if you don’t watch the games, they don’t give you a real view of the offense. Its an all or nothing offense.

    Its not consistent enough at all and hasn’t been for the last 2 years.

    Wonderful numbers on the surface. Yet, when you dig into the numbers, you see failing numbers that show why they lose certain games.

    yeah I get it – but isn’t better than being in the bottom ten? Without Alex?

    excuse me for trying to be a little positive.
    I didn’t know this was the negative thread

  168. Nick in SF April 29th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    I’m worried that we’re paying CC, AJ, and Andy way too much when they’re only going to contribute to around 20+ wins each. :(

  169. Christina April 29th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    How is Joba being a starter an experiment? Correct me if im mistaken, but wasnt he a starter in college? Some of you act like this is a new thing for him.

    There’s risk with anything. AJ Burnett has just as much of a chance of getting injured as Joba does, given his history.

  170. New Brandon April 29th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    “Yanks are in the MLB top ten in every offensive catagory.”

    I think it’s possible. One game they get one or two runs and the next they’re in a slugfest.

    Just not very consistent.

  171. Al from BK April 29th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    “But for the sake of internet traffic (and my e-mail in-box), let’s say that Wang comes back in early June and Hughes is 4-1, 2.85. What then?

    You shake Phil’s hand, thank him for a job well done and send him back to Scranton until he is needed again.”

    Ridiculous Pete. Phil is 22 years old not 18 if he pitches that well he deserves to stay in the rotation. At some point you have to let this young man stay up what will it mean to his confidence if he pitches 5 gems in a row and gets sent back to SWB?

  172. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    “I guess when I said dominant starter I should have qualified it that he wouldn’t pitch 4 hit shutouts every time.

    A mid-2’s ERA is dominant, IMO.”

    Also, I’m not saying Joba wouldn’t be a great starter, but what better serves the needs of the team right now…another starter or a reliable, dominant reliever who could eventually replace Mariano?

  173. m April 29th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    Kennedy was a baserunner?

  174. Patrick April 29th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    1. Drafting a reliever in the first round is a terrible idea.

    2. Joba will not be going back to the bullpen this year.

    3. Hughes will not be in the starting rotation for the rest of this year.

  175. JohnC April 29th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    agreea bout Leyland. He is quite a character with his responses. I remember back in 92 when he was managing the Pirates and both Barry Bonds and Bobby Bonilla were there and in their primes. Bonilla was an impending FA, Bonds a year away. At the end of ST, Newsday had a backpage story(which turned out to be totally false) that the Yanks were working on a megadeal with Pittsburgh to bring both players to NY. When Leyland was asked about it, he chuckled and said “Oh yeah? For who? Ruth and Gehrig?” I thought that was hilarious.

  176. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    I don’t think they are experimenting with Joba as a starter.

    His stuff translates to being a dominant starter.

    The issue is, can he stay healthy enough to reach that goal?

    That’s the variable we don’t know at this time.

    It would be nice to see more electric stuff from him tonight.

    Comerica Park is a pitchers ballpark and there is no reason why Joba can’t attack hitters, get ahead (as Verlander and Hughes have done the last two nights) and finish guys.

    That’s what we need to start seeing from him if he is to remain in the rotation.

  177. Tex's Friend (CC has it together, Hughes is the man) April 29th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    right now starters are needed. just because we had a couple good starts, we have had more bad than good.

  178. raymagnetic April 29th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    “I think it’s possible. One game they get one or two runs and the next they’re in a slugfest.

    Just not very consistent.”

    In 15 of the 20 games they’ve played they’ve scored between 4 and 6 runs, which is very consistent.

  179. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    “Also, I’m not saying Joba wouldn’t be a great starter, but what better serves the needs of the team right now…another starter or a reliable, dominant reliever who could eventually replace Mariano?”

    ———–

    an ace starter for 10+ seasons would be much more valuable, IMO

  180. Pat M April 29th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Last night Phil responded to great pressure and threw a gem of a game…..All this talk about what to do down the road is a little premature….Worry about today, and worry about tomorrow when it comes about…..The one thing that last night proved was that maybe some additional time can be afforded with Wang’s recovery….Unless something major happens in the pen, Joba is in the rotation where he belongs….But it was great watching a more together a more mature & a healthy Phil Hughes respond to the call…

  181. 011100110110110101101011 April 29th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    ‘he double off’ obviously means he hit a double off Ian Kennedy.

    I didn’t write, just ctl & c/ctl & v’d it.

  182. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    “The issue is, can he stay healthy enough to reach that goal?

    That’s the variable we don’t know at this time.”

    ————–

    this is the only issue.

    And it’s worth finding out. That means giving him time and actually attempting to resolve the velocity issues.

    You cannot rush to judgment, which is the name of the game with this blog.

  183. Patrick April 29th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    “The issue is, can he stay healthy enough to reach that goal?”

    Yes that is the issue but we can’t even begin to think about the answer until at least this season is over.

    This whole discussion is so pointless until the Yankees actually have 6 good starting pitchers. Right now they have 5 and there are 5 spots in the rotation. No point in speculating until Wang is healthy.

  184. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    “an ace starter for 10+ seasons would be much more valuable, IMO”

    Thats precisely why we just threw Fort Knox at CC and AJ…but facts are the Mariano has one, two more years TOPS in him (when he retires, i WILL cry btw). Hughes is 23 and Kennedy is 24. Starters will be there, a replacement for Mo will not be. There are pros and cons to this argument, clearly. Im just stubbornly convinced that the pros far outweigh the cons for Joba in the pen.

  185. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Christina—The Yankees are trying Joba out as a starter. If he fails he will be back in the pen. If there are 5 guys better than him he will be back in the pen. When he hits his innings limit, he will be back in the pen. That is why it is an experiment.

  186. Al from BK April 29th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    The killer instinct is just what we havent been seeing from Joba all season. He hasn’t attacked hitters and shown his good stuff hence why people are clamoring for him as a dominant set-up man.

  187. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Ugly, ugly game Ashville against Charleston today. Luckily Angelini didn’t have an error. Hard to do riding the pines. surely though he dropped any ball hit into the dugout.

    http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....8;did=milb

  188. jake April 29th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Peter, I don’t disagree with you about Joba. But here’s a challenge:

    Try explaining what’s wrong with him. He’s throwing 91, not 95+, and not missing many bats.
    He’s gotten by, thus far, but, unless you’re wearing rose-colored glasses, hasn’t looked all that great.
    Sure, it’s cooler weather, and all, but that, alone, can’t explain the drop-off in performance.
    You’re a big Joba as a starter fan…what’s going on with him?

  189. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    1. You draft the best player available in the baseball draft, regardless of position. If Jason Stoffel is there for the Yankees, and they have him rated as the best player on the board at that time (no idea if they do), he will get drafted by them, regardless of position. That’s how they select players in the draft.

    2. Nobody knows where Joba will end up this year. That’s an open question at this time. If he continues to be an average starter at best, and they need him in the bullpen, he’s moving. If he picks it up as a starter, and he’s needed there, he’s staying.

    3. If Hughes pitches remotely close to what he showed last night, there is a very good chance he stays in NY all season.

    He has nothing left to prove in AAA. The question is, can he give them consistently good outings? Time will tell.

  190. no.27 April 29th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    “Joba isn’t going to AAA. You don’t send one of your best pitchers to AAA in order to get in innings.

    That’s where folks go off the deep end with innings limit stuff.

    Joba is one the best half dozen pitchers on the team. He isn’t going to AAA anytime soon.”

    On one hand you’re saying Joba has been a “pedestrian starter” and on the other your saying he’s one of the 6 best pitchers on the team.

    If CC, Burnett, Wang, Pettitte, and Hughes are all pitching better than Joba, why not send him down to AAA to work on getting his pitches closer to where they were as a starter?

  191. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    “Im just stubbornly convinced that the pros far outweigh the cons for Joba in the pen.”

    ——-

    I respectfully disagree. I do see your point but Joba has always been a starter.

    Mo went to the bullpen because he had 1 pitch (a very good one).

    How many closers have 4 plus pitches?

  192. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    B. Dave:

    Not sure what you do. Seems a little too easy to say “let’s find out why Joba has lost 5 MPH and can’t locate” and then fix it………but that’s what I want them to do.

    To me it has to be either something medical or something coachable. Something’s not right. He’s thrown 272 pitches this year. Only 14 times has someone swung and missed. To lend that stat some perspective, he had one three game stretch last year where he threw 305 pitches and had 47 swings and misses. His last two starts featured 184 pitches. 95 strikes and 89 balls. He’s just not the same.

    We’ll see what tonite brings. My argument isn’t so much in favor of moving him to the pen, though I do see some merits to it in the right circumstances, it’s that I’m a little worried about him.

  193. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    “He’s throwing 91, not 95+, and not missing many bats.
    He’s gotten by, thus far, but, unless you’re wearing rose-colored glasses, hasn’t looked all that great.”

    ——

    jake, at least your asking questions instead of just conceding that he can’t be a starter.

    It’s 4 starts. Find out what’s wrong and fix it.

    The bullpen is a last resort if he is proven, over time, to be physically incapable of starting.

  194. m April 29th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    It’s kind of unfair (and realistic) that Joba would be as dominant as a starter than he was as a reliever.

  195. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    “Seems a little too easy to say “let’s find out why Joba has lost 5 MPH and can’t locate” and then fix it………but that’s what I want them to do.”

    ——–

    being worried is fine. but look at his entire career – his entire body of work.

    you don’t take 4 so-so starts and decide that 100 starts of excellence were all a fluke.

    you spend time figuring out why the 4 starts haven’t been good.

  196. Billy April 29th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    “Ugly, ugly game Ashville against Charleston today. Luckily Angelini didn’t have an error. Hard to do riding the pines. surely though he dropped any ball hit into the dugout.”

    Nice. lol. Marshall started off decent but he’s not missing any bats. May need to see some time in S.I. when the start. Mitchell needs to be at Tampa.

  197. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    “Are you really that clueless?”

    Be nice Dave.

    Also note that Chamberlain has pretty much been Matsuzaka this year so far.

  198. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Pat M,

    That was the Hughes we have seen in the past and bragged about.

    From his first 3 pitches, he seemed different. Lower arm angle, much more leg drive into his pitches.

    His fastball had that late life it used to have.

    Cutter looked good and the knuckle curve was back.

    He also showed great composure when Cousins squeezed him.

    I certainly don’t expect shutout innings every time out.

    However, if this is the Hughes of 2009, he ain’t goin’ back to Scranton anytime soon. He’s going to help this team win some games this year.

  199. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    Steve B-

    Joba seems to be feeling his way around facing major league hitters. I believe Burnett probably pulled him aside and told him how he used to throw 95-98 but is more of a “pitcher” now that he spots his fastball. Joba is in a learning process, I doubt we would keep throwing him out there if there was a problem with his arm.

  200. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    “Mo went to the bullpen because he had 1 pitch (a very good one).

    How many closers have 4 plus pitches?”

    Very few. Mo had mixed success as a starter and was moved to the pen in ’96 because there was a need there. There is a need now. Wetteland left, Rivera filled the void and the rest is history. Clearly, Joba is a better starter than Mo ever was, but having shown flashes of brilliance out of the pen and a glaring need coming down the road, i feel like he’d be better suited in the pen. Mo goes down, this team is screwed and we all know it. he’s the only one would could fill that void.

  201. Nick in SF April 29th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    Ah, the truth finally comes out. We can afford to put Joba in the pen because we won’t ever need him in the rotation. Why not? Because Ian Kennedy is waiting in the wings!

    Why not mention out AAA stud Kei Igawa too?

  202. five iron from fenway April 29th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    SJ – You keep saying that Hughes has nothing to learn, but what about the Change. He threw a couple last night, but by his own admission it is not there yet.
    Can he learn this with the Yankees?
    Will he allow (or the Yankees allow) him to learn this with the Yankees?
    The change is now a show me pitch, but if he can get it to an average offering he will be that much more difficult to hit against.
    Phil is not a finished product by any means. My question is can he refine this in the majors or do these issues need minor league team and commands to throw 10 changes a game?

  203. Laura - There's nothing you have that I need, I can breathe! April 29th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    I think that some of you are being a bit naive here if you don’t think that the Yankees will move Joba back to the pen if the situation calls for it. I’m not saying its what they want to do. I’m just saying that they haven’t ruled it out like some of you seem to think they have. You have to do whats best for the team first; you think about the player later. If the bullpen continues to suck and the best option is Joba, he’ll be back in the pen. If Joba’s stint as a starter doesn’t go as planned, he’ll be back in the pen. If {God forbid} that something happens to Mo, Joba is the new closer. If the difference between us finishing 3rd or 1st is Joba in the pen, that’s where you’ll be able to find him.

  204. 011100110110110101101011 April 29th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Great game going on at Citi Field. Josh Johnson v. Johan Santana, and both are dealing.

    Cohen mentioned how Santana toiled in the Astros minor leagues for four yrs before being dealt to Min (via Florida). Just goes to show how patience can be very, very rewarding.

  205. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    “Also note that Chamberlain has pretty much been Matsuzaka this year so far.”

    —-

    fair enough. but if Matsuzaka were to continue going 20-4 with a 2.50 ERA, he wouldn’t be going to the bullpen.

    I don’t see any realistic comparison between Joba and Daisuke anyway.

    Not to mention, Daisuke is 28. Joba is 23!!!

  206. Benny Blanco April 29th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    “Some people are so knee-jerk to everything it’s sickening. Every day it’s a complete flip-flop.”

    I coudn’t agree with you more….lol.

  207. Al from BK April 29th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    Joba as a starter this year= Pedestrian

    Joba as a reliever= DOMINANT

  208. DT April 29th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    Who was the GM who left Santana off their 40 man and let him get picked up in the Rule 5 draft?

    Sounds like something Steve Phillips would do.

  209. JohnC April 29th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    I beleive the Grass Roots said it best:

    “Sha La La La La La Live for today…. Sha La La La La La Live for today… and don’t worry bout tommorrow……”

  210. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    “Mo goes down, this team is screwed and we all know it. he’s the only one would could fill that void.”

    ———-

    If Papelbon goes down, do the Sox replace him with Beckett or Ramon Ramirez?

    The Yanks should replace Mo with Bruney or Melancon, not one of their starters. Certainly not a starter of Joba’s caliber.

  211. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Flip-flop, drip-drop. Let’s all bury our heads in the sand and say Joba is a starter and dassit. Garbage. He starts for now. He can also go back to the pen. It’s not one or the other and no discussion. Be flexible.

  212. V April 29th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    1) Joba should not go to the bullpen because he’s had a bad start to the season. He should not go to the bullpen if he lays an egg for the next month, putting up a 5.5 ERA. In the latter case, he should go to AAA (or the DL), and the issues should get fixed. Hopefully he’s fine, and just building up arm strength.

    2) Is Mark Melancon just totally ignored by everyone? How long does he need to perform before people accept him as the heir apparent to Mariano? If he puts up a Joba circa 2007, and Bruney comes back fine, will this Joba debate go away?

    3) If the Yankees were to give up on Joba as a potential front-line ace, of the Roger Clemens/Pedro Martinez/Johan Santana variety, and turn him into Bobby Jenks, I would stop watching. Period.

  213. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Joltin’ Joe:

    Heard that theory before. Don’t buy it. Might buy it if AJ himself weren’t out there throwing 95 MPH, and walking 4.5 for every nine innings, but that’s what he’s doing. Might buy it if Joba was actually successful in spotting his pitches, but he hasn’t.

    I do agree they would send him out there if he were hurt but I’m nonehtheless perplexed by how different he is as a pitcher from last year.

  214. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    “The Yanks should replace Mo with Bruney or Melancon”

    If you were managing a ballgame, and having seen what Joba did two years ago in relief, you put Bruney/Melancon in during a one run game at fenway in the 9th instead? Ballsy…

  215. V April 29th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    “Joba as a starter this year= Pedestrian

    Joba as a reliever= DOMINANT”

    Joba as a reliever IN 2008 = Dominant.
    Joba as a starter in 2008 = Dominant.

    Joba as a starter in 2009, so far = Pedestrian.
    Joba as a reliever in 2009…. = ?

    Who’s to say we wouldn’t be seeing a 92 fastball in the bullpen if you guys got your wish?

  216. five iron from fenway April 29th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    Boston Dave – Fellow Bostonite is 100% CORRECT.
    Based on his history in the minors and in the majors Joba IS A DOMINANT STARTER.
    I do not believe that you have to decide if he is a dominant start. The key as Boston pointed out is to find out why he is messed up early this year.
    If it is learning the league, building arm strength, learning from AJ (although AJ still lights up the gun after “learning how to pitch”) then you let him get sorted out and settled and we move forward with an amazingly valuable young starting pitcher.
    If it is health then A. something that would require him to limit length of outing a la Pabelbon he goes to the pen or B. something transient – you get it fixed and 100% healthy and he is back to the rotation.

  217. YankeeDiva April 29th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    uggh Pete why do you go and say things like this….now I have to acknowledge that I agree with you (on this point anyway).

  218. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    “Is Mark Melancon just totally ignored by everyone? How long does he need to perform before people accept him as the heir apparent to Mariano? ”

    Longer than 3 innings…come on, man.

  219. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    “replace Mo with Bruney or Melancon.” LOL. What have they proven? Bruney is an accident waiting to happen and Melancon has never pitched under NY pressure.

  220. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    Pete,

    you need to start logging the “flip-flops” of the week

    Here are the ones that come to mind… from the one week prior to the season:

    1. Yankees are better off without ARod because Ransom is hitting .300 in spring training

    2. Gardner is going to hit 10-15HR because he has 4 in spring training

    3. Trade Cano because he’s lazy

    4. Yankees have the best bullpen in baseball

    5. Trade Phil Hughes

    6. Yankees will win 110 games

  221. DT April 29th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    Joba as a starter this year= Pedestrian
    Joba as a reliever= DOMINANT

    Sounds like someone who crosses against the green light – a dominant pedestrian.

  222. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes April 29th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    “Joba has a 2.43 ERA in 15 starts over the last two seasons.”

    I did not realize this…that is awesome.

    I knew Joba had pitched well last season and I really don’t think he looks all that bad this season. Just needs to get ahead in counts and walk less guys and the rest will work itself out.

  223. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    “April 29th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    “replace Mo with Bruney or Melancon.” LOL. What have they proven? Bruney is an accident waiting to happen and Melancon has never pitched under NY pressure.”

    ——–

    so you think Boston would replace Papelbon with Josh Beckett then?

    good call.

  224. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    You can stop watching but, if Joba isn’t healthy enough on a consistent basis to become a starting pitcher, a la Papelbon for example, he will get moved back to the bullpen.

    If that means you will refuse to watch Yankee Baseball again, I’m sure they will deal with it.

    I don’t think the Yankees view Joba as a starting pitcher with a 90-91 MPH fastball, no swing and miss ability, and will keep him in the starting rotation because they believe he must stay as a starter.

    If health reasons dictate that he can go back to the bullpen, amp it up to what Joba used to be, and dominate, he’s goin’ back to the bullpen at some point this season.

  225. V April 29th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    Re: Johan Santana.

    Check out his BaseballProspectus page.

    Prior to 2002, they saw him as a future lefty specialist.

    Prior to 2003:

    “Santana was nabbed from the depths of the Midwest League out of the Astros’ organization for the 2000 season, so you could expect him to get knocked around his first couple of years in the majors. Nevertheless, the Twins gave him game experience, and now they have his development as a starting pitcher as a reward. Although he’s still wild, his climbing strikeout rate is reason to believe that the improvement will stick. He should be allowed to challenge Kyle Lohse for the fifth starter’s job in camp, but Gardenhire has already said he’ll have to settle for a long relief role until somebody gets hurt.”

  226. Pat M April 29th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    SJ44, The leg drive ( somewhere between clemens & Seaver ) and then the arm angle were the first things that I, Randy & CB noticed right off….He looked like the Hughes from a few years ago…..Finally he’s on his way…I cannot envision him going back if he keeps throwingh this well…

  227. randy l. April 29th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    i think what sj44 sees is the same thing i see. the ball is coming out of his hand funny. it’s not the nice smooth powerful release we’re used to seeing. he’s getting by with it, but i agree the decrease in velocity is a concern.

    even if he is healthy you don’t want him pitching for long with this kind of funkiness as it could lead to an injury .

  228. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    “2) Is Mark Melancon just totally ignored by everyone? How long does he need to perform before people accept him as the heir apparent to Mariano?”

    Well, he’s performed 3 innings so far. Another 5 or 6 and I’m in.

    Jeesh! He’s probably going to be a good pitcher, but let’s see him go around the league a bit before declaring the next closer.

  229. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    “so you think Boston would replace Papelbon with Josh Beckett then?

    good call.”

    Pap-smear went down two (maybe 3?) years ago and they replaced him with Curt Schilling.

  230. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    Dave,

    That’s not a logical argument for several reasons:

    1. Josh Beckett was never a dominating relief pitcher with an ERA under 1. Joba has been.

    2. Joba Chamberlain has never been Josh Beckett yet in this rotation. He has the POTENTIAL to be, if he can stay healthy and productive. However, potential and results are two entirely different things.

  231. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    Steve B

    There aren’t many starters, if any, who bring it as Joba did in relief. Just not the nature of the job. I guess the next time Joba comes into the 8th, we will see if the old Joba is back.

  232. The Mad Prince in Pinstripes April 29th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    Joltin’ Joe,

    You’re wrong, it is one or the other right now when you are developing a young pitcher. You can’t tell him to prepare to pitch every five days and then a month into the season ask him to go back to the bullpen and throw 100 mph. This would require him to go back to AAA and readjust which is simply a waste of time and talent.

    This is the first time in which he has entered the season as a starting pitcher for the Yankees. Give him a chance.

    Remember: “Joba has a 2.43 ERA in 15 starts over the last two seasons.”

  233. V April 29th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    “You can stop watching but, if Joba isn’t healthy enough on a consistent basis to become a starting pitcher, a la Papelbon for example, he will get moved back to the bullpen.”

    And you’re going to make this decision on what, 1 month at age 23?

    Papelbon had a HISTORY of shoulder issues. A LENGTHY history of shoulder issues. He can’t even pitch as frequently as a ‘typical’ reliever because of his shoulder issues.

    He was a reliever in college. He also doesn’t have nearly the repertoire Joba has – the ‘stuff’ to be a dominant starter.

    Joba has 3 starts in 2009 at a diminished velocity, and we have no clue what caused it. But you’re comparing him to a guy who’s never, ever, ever, shown the stamina to be a starter?

  234. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    SJ44,

    I’m saying that as a philosophy. You don’t replace your closer with a starting pitcher.

    You don’t think Beckett would be a great closer?

    You and I seem to agree that Joba should only go to the bullpen if injury or physical limitation force it.

    What we disagree on is how quickly that assessment should be made.

    I think his value as a longterm starter is so great that it’s worth spending considerable time to find out why his velocity is down.

  235. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    SJ44
    April 29th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
    You can stop watching but, if Joba isn’t healthy enough on a consistent basis to become a starting pitcher, a la Papelbon for example, he will get moved back to the bullpen.

    If that means you will refuse to watch Yankee Baseball again, I’m sure they will deal with it.

    I don’t think the Yankees view Joba as a starting pitcher with a 90-91 MPH fastball, no swing and miss ability, and will keep him in the starting rotation because they believe he must stay as a starter.

    If health reasons dictate that he can go back to the bullpen, amp it up to what Joba used to be, and dominate, he’s goin’ back to the bullpen at some point this season.

    ————————————————————

    Do you think that chamberlain has taken Burnett’s advice that he didn’t need to throw through a brick wall to literally, and hasn’t learned exactly when to air a pitch out during the game?

  236. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    throw through a brick wall ***too*** literally,

  237. Al from BK April 29th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Its very obvious that as a starter Joba is conserving energy and holding back on pitches. If he were in the pen he could blow batters away for 1-2 innings. If Joba were ever put back in the pen I see him pitching like Eric Gagne in 2003 he is that good coming out of the pen.

  238. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    In retrospect, I really wish Cashman had just shut him down in 2007 instead of bringing him up as a reliever.

  239. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    B. Dave

    How about “replacing” Papelbum with Saito or Smoltz? Duh.

  240. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    I really want to know where the 2008 SJ44 went. Three starts, THREE starts, and he’s willing to get rid of any chance of producing what could be one of the best starting pitchers of this generation, and relegate him to a 1-inning role (with no guarantee he’d be healthy THERE!).

  241. Bad Scooter April 29th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    Wow!!!! Look at all those empty seats right behind home plate at Citi Field, Camden Yards and US Cellular. I’ve never seen anything like it. That’s going to be front page news in NY, Baltimore and Chicago.

  242. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    “Its very obvious that as a starter Joba is conserving energy and holding back on pitches. If he were in the pen he could blow batters away for 1-2 innings. If Joba were ever put back in the pen I see him pitching like Eric Gagne in 2003 he is that good coming out of the pen.”

    Did you watch his 07/25/2008 start?

    Give me a flipping break.

  243. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    I could also see him breaking down like Eric Gagne shortly after 2003.

  244. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    “B. Dave

    How about “replacing” Papelbum with Saito or Smoltz? Duh.”

    ———-

    Saito won’t last the season, IMO. If Smoltz were pitching, sure.

    Ramon Ramirez is their best reliever after Papelbon right now. I was just making an example anyway. It didn’t need to be literal.

  245. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    When did Burnett become a pitching guru anyway? Glad he’s with the Yankees and all, but can’t ignore he’s spent most of his career performing to a level beneath that of his physical talent. Rather have seen him take something away from time spent with Mussina, who was the anti-Burnett.

  246. no.27 April 29th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    Abraham’s numbers are wrong on Joba. http://www.baseball-reference......;t=p#sprel

    He’s got a 2.99 ERA as a starter through 15 games. It doesn’t really matter though because those numbers are great too.

  247. YankeeRay April 29th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Scenario:
    1- Joba starts for now
    2- Wang comes back strong in 30-60 days
    3- Hughes continues to pitch well
    4- Melancon continues to pitch well
    5- Bruney comes back healthy
    6- All other starters stay healthy
    7- In playoff series Joba goes to pen?

    Why not just transition him there in June or July to limit innings? What are the other options? Send Hughes down or 6 man rotation? I don’t think so.

  248. five iron from fenway April 29th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    SJ – Joba outpitched Beckett last year as a starting pitcher.

  249. randy l. April 29th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    1.81 whip 3.94 era

    those are the facts this year so far.

    joba is lucky to have a 3.94 era with that kind of whip.

    coupled with the decrease in velocity, his next few starts need to be watched carefully.

  250. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    randy l.
    April 29th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
    i think what sj44 sees is the same thing i see. the ball is coming out of his hand funny. it’s not the nice smooth powerful release we’re used to seeing. he’s getting by with it, but i agree the decrease in velocity is a concern.

    even if he is healthy you don’t want him pitching for long with this kind of funkiness as it could lead to an injury .

    ————————————————————

    I agree with Randy (Gabby) Johnson agreeing with what SJ44 (Howard) Johnson says about Joba Johnson’s delivery.

  251. Patrick April 29th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    SJ44,

    Picking a reliever in the first round is almost always a bad idea.

    I don’t understand your infatuation with Joba in the bullpen. He will be given at least one year minimum in the starting rotation before they decide if he can’t handle it. Even if Joba has a mediocre season, if he comes through it healthy he will remain in the rotation. At his age you can’t expect him to dominate right away. If he stays healthy but pitches to a 4.00 ERA all year, that’s a success. We know what kind of pitcher Joba can be, the only limiting factor is his durability. Even if he has a down year we can reasonably assume an improvement.

    Again, April is not the time to be talking about moving Joba to the bullpen. If Joba is pitching poorly in August with a low velocity get back to me.

  252. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 3:06 pm

    Joba also has a history of injury problems.

    He was hurt throughout his college career. Elbow, shoulder, knee and hamstring issues.

    He had a hamstring issue his first year as a pro and a shoulder problem last year. That’s as much an injury history as Papelbon.

    GB,

    I don’t know. It certainly is a possibility.

    He’s just not throwing the ball well. His delivery seems less fluid. His fastball not only has less velocity but, less late movement and his slider and curveball aren’t tight.

    All in all, he hasn’t looked good.

    If its physical or mental (fearful of airing it out because of the shoulder problem of last year) its a concern.

    To “still be building arm strength” right now, leads me to ask the question, “what did he do in the off-season”?

    I’ve always felt he was more injured than the Yankees let on last year. I never believe the Yankees public statements when it comes to injuries. They are ALWAYS more serious than they let on.

    If his stuff is still like this in another 2-3 weeks, they need to make some decisions with him, IMO.

    What we have seen so far this year, stuff-wise, I’m not talking results, is not Joba Chamberlain.

  253. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    “INDIANS 8TH: CHAMBERLAIN REPLACED FARNSWORTH (PITCHING);
    Sizemore walked; Carroll out on a sacrifice bunt (pitcher to
    second) [Sizemore to second]; Peralta walked; Garko flied to
    right; DELLUCCI BATTED FOR GUTIERREZ; Dellucci homered [Sizemore
    scored, Peralta scored]; Hafner was called out on strikes; 3 R,
    1 H, 0 E, 0 LOB. Indians 5, Yankees 3.”

    Joba = DOMINANT.

  254. Al from BK April 29th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    “Did you watch his 07/25/2008 start?

    Give me a flipping break.”

    Yes I did see that but I also know that start was before his injury. It is obvious that every start he has made since then he has been giving an 80% effort and hitters have not looked uncomfortable against him at all. If Hughes out-pitches Joba there is no reason why you don’t keep Hughes in the rotation and put Joba in the pen. That one move would give us the best staff in the game.

  255. randy l. April 29th, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    “five iron from fenway”

    have you ever literally tried it? could be fun :)

  256. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    Mad Prince–

    I ask you this. When Joba hits his innings limit and if the Yanks make the playoffs, will Joba go to the pen?

  257. Doreen April 29th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    Last season Joba started in the pen. How long did it take to stretch him out and build stamina before he came up to start?

    Why can’t it just be that this, his first season beginning as a starter, that it is taking some time to get into form?

  258. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    SJ44, let’s say he’s hurt. Let’s say his shoulder’s not completely healed.

    You’re willing to, in 2009, say ‘well, starting was a nice experiment, but I guess he’s just not cut out for it’. Just, like that?

    That’s ridiculous.

  259. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    V,

    I think some of these people are zombies. They’ve gotten to SJ44 and they’re coming after us next :)

    I agree with most of what SJ44 is saying, just not the timeframes.

  260. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    “SJ – Joba outpitched Beckett last year as a starting pitcher.”

    …in one game. Who was the more impressive starter over the course of the season?

  261. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    SJ44
    April 29th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
    Joba also has a history of injury problems.

    He was hurt throughout his college career. Elbow, shoulder, knee and hamstring issues.

    He had a hamstring issue his first year as a pro and a shoulder problem last year. That’s as much an injury history as Papelbon.

    GB,

    I don’t know. It certainly is a possibility.

    ————————————————————

    Wasonly asking, because he seems like he takes instructions well, but, not experienced enough to fine tune the suggestions to fit his needs/talents.

  262. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    And Joba in college was not a fit person. A hamstring injury, really?

    That’s comparable to the fact that Papelbon has had to be shut down as a reliever due to shoulder problems?

  263. Patrick April 29th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    “2. Joba Chamberlain has never been Josh Beckett yet in this rotation. He has the POTENTIAL to be, if he can stay healthy and productive. However, potential and results are two entirely different things. ”

    You’re right, he’s been better. In his age 22 season (first full season in the bigs) Beckett had 21 starts and pitched to a 4.10 ERA. Beckett didn’t make 30 starts in a season until his age 26 season and in that season he had a 5.01 ERA. The Marlins/Red Sox didn’t give up on him and put him in the bullpen, they kept him in the rotation because he has electric stuff suited more for a starting role.

    Good thing they waited, in his age 27 season Beckett had 20 wins with a 3.27 ERA and led his team to a world series title.

    I can only hope that the Yankees have more patience than many of their fans and stick with Joba in the starting rotation. Putting him in the bullpen would be a gigantic mistake and a complete waste of his talent.

  264. five iron from fenway April 29th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Randy – My building is twelve stories high so I could pull a Kramer (hitting balls off the beach). Although with my accuracy the ball is as likely to land in the Charles as it is in Fenway.
    Honestly, we are about a mile away so even Tiger couldn’t reach. We can see the park and the lights from our roof. Most depressingly we can hear the roar of the crowd when the Sox win (in the playoffs and world series).

  265. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Pete,

    did you really have to open this can of worms again? :)

  266. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    “SJ – Joba outpitched Beckett last year as a starting pitcher.”

    Not for 30 starts, he didn’t. He made 10 real starts (excluding the stretch out starts when he went 6 IP over 2 games). And he had to be DL’d after doing so.

  267. Nick in SF April 29th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    “Joba Chamberlain has -never been- beaten Josh Beckett” :)

  268. randy l. April 29th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    ” If Joba is pitching poorly in August with a low velocity get back to me.”

    sj44 doesn’t call you, you call him and leave a message. maybe he gets back to you.

    just teasing patrick.

    all this hughes/ joba stuff seems has you a little testy today.

  269. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    “I agree with most of what SJ44 is saying, just not the timeframes.”

    Oh, I agree. If he’s mediocre in 2009, and again in 2010, needs DL’ed, and shows no signs of improvement, you can try the 1 inning thing.

    But I’m not willing to totally throw his experience in the starting role (2007, minors; 2008, majors), touching 99 in the 7th-8th innings, away based on 3 starts or even 15 starts, and convert him into Bobby Jenks for the rest of his career.

  270. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    Josh Beckett = most despised Red Sock…agree?

  271. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    “I can only hope that the Yankees have more patience than many of their fans and stick with Joba in the starting rotation. Putting him in the bullpen would be a gigantic mistake and a complete waste of his talent.”

    ——-

    cheers to that. there’s not much patience in here. that’s for sure.

  272. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    Joba outpitched Beckett in ONE start last year. Let’s not go crazy. Joba isn’t close to what Josh Beckett is as a starting pitcher. One day, we hope he gets to that level. However, one day doesn’t make him a better pitcher than Beckett.

    I’m not advocating Joba to the bullpen immediately. I’m advocating they CONSIDER it based on a number of factors I have outlined.

    OBVIOUSLY, they are not there yet. However, that may be on the table IF certain factors take place.

    Patrick,

    I’ve said time and time again, its not about results with Joba. Its about his stuff.

    His stuff hasn’t looked good this year. His velocity is down and he doesn’t look comfortable starting his games so far this year.

    Tonight, he may go out and dominate.

    All I’m saying is, what if he doesn’t? What if health, or fears of health issues derail him? What if Joba himself decides that he wants to go back to the bullpen, prepare to be Mariano’s replacement, and give them dominant innings out of the ‘pen because HE feels more comfortable emptying the tank out there?

    I’ve said time and time again, I don’t know the answer to those questions.

    I’ve also said that his health is going to determine his future. If he can’t stay healthy, or doesn’t feel comfortable enough to stay healthy as a starter, then its an issue.

    If he’s healthy and is just slow to come around right now? That’s a different deal.

  273. five iron from fenway April 29th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    With some tongue in cheek – the biggest mistake the Yankees made with Joba was putting him in the bullpen in the first place. They didn’t try it because they thought Joba would be good in that role it was only for development and limiting innings. Joba was just too darn good.

  274. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    How is Joba pitching hurt? You don’t think mgmnt would pick up on that? Are they that stupid to let him pitch with an injury? Cmon.

  275. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    And I’d rather trade Joba Chamberlain for a Dexter Fowler/Matt LaPorta/Colby Rasmus type than convert him to a 1 inning reliever. I’d think he could land any of them 1 for 1 without a problem.

  276. S.A.--Honk if you hate hobbits April 29th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    Oh No! Lisa from Whitestone on with Kay.
    LOL Kay calling out Lisa for something she said with Francesa

  277. Patrick April 29th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    “all this hughes/ joba stuff seems has you a little testy today.”

    I’m testy every day!

    I’m learning from you :)

  278. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Boston Dave
    April 29th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
    “I can only hope that the Yankees have more patience than many of their fans and stick with Joba in the starting rotation. Putting him in the bullpen would be a gigantic mistake and a complete waste of his talent.”
    ———-

    cheers to that. there’s not much patience in here. that’s for sure.

    ————————————————————

    Patience? We got plenty of patients. Mostly mental….but, we got ‘em.

  279. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Heck, I’d wager he could land someone even more established (B.J. Upton/Sizemore/etc.) in the right deal.

  280. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    “Patience? We got plenty of patients. Mostly mental….but, we got ‘em.”

    Don’t quit your day job, GB :-D

  281. Uncle Ellsworth April 29th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Jon Ringland
    April 29th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
    Josh Beckett = most despised Red Sock…agree?

    Right now its Ellsbury- until after the cooling off period.
    That’s how I feel its not up for debate.
    normally its Beckett and Pap

  282. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    V,

    I’m on the same page with that.

    I’m amazed (well, not with this crowd) that some are so willing to make a decision based on 4 starts that he was a complete fluke as a starter over the previous several years.

    If your year old sports car has issues, you take it to the mechanic and fix it. You don’t just scratch your head and trade it in for something of significantly less value without ever having tried to fix it. (cue the jokes)

  283. Patrick April 29th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    “All I’m saying is, what if he doesn’t?”

    If he doesn’t dominate TONIGHT? The Yankees should wait out the rest of the season and see how he looks over the course of the entire year.

    “I’ve said time and time again, I don’t know the answer to those questions.”

    Lucky for you, I do know the answers :) He is much more valuable in the starting rotation and a handful of starts in April does not change that fact.

  284. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    Jon Ringland
    April 29th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
    “Patience? We got plenty of patients. Mostly mental….but, we got ‘em.”

    Don’t quit your day job, GB

    ————————————————————

    I’m retired, so, I get to practice my standup/sitdown on here. You lucky dogs.

  285. Sam April 29th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    I think most people on the put-Joba-in-the-pen side of the debate are assuming that they’ll see the adrenaline-rushing testosterone-laced flame-throwing Joba Chamberlain of 2007 again if he goes to the pen. If he does go there I think they’re going to be really disappointed. I believe *that* Joba is gone for good and he’s a very different pitcher now.

    Notice how a lot of guys like that tend to fizzle out very quickly in this game (see Wohlers, Mark). I think Joba is smart enough to realize that he has to make some adjustments after what happened to his shoulder last year.

  286. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    “Right now its Ellsbury- until after the cooling off period.”

    As much as I hate to admit it, I like L’s Berry. I also like Pedroia. CANT STAND Pap though. I’ll never take him seriously again after the whole “I should close the all-star game at Yankee Stadium, not Rivera” fiasco.

  287. randy l. April 29th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    “Although with my accuracy the ball is as likely to land in the Charles as it is in Fenway.”

    “Most depressingly we can hear the roar of the crowd when the Sox win (in the playoffs and world series).”

    five iron from fenway-

    i think that the charles would be a lateral hazard so you could just drop and continue on where it entered the river.

    i agree the roar of the crowd would be upsetting, but it must be very nice watching the light go out for the final time of the year when they don’t make the playoffs or are eliminated.

  288. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Speaking of 23 year old pitchers, Yovani Gallardo is the cheese. How soon til the Yankees can get him?

  289. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    “I believe that Joba is gone for good and he’s a very different pitcher now.”

    I really, really hope you’re wrong. Bc thats what makes Joba Joba.

  290. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    Wow, V, that’s quite a compelling argument you made right there.

    Took the one bad game he had out of the bullpen and that’s your argument?

    You conveinently left out the first 25 innings scoreless innings of his career. Or the other dominant outings he had as a relief pitcher.

    Put it to you another way…..He’s had THREE bad outings as a relief pitcher. He’s had THREE bad starts in a row.

    If you are trying to make the argument he’s been a better starter than reliever, its not even logical.

    He’s was a dominant relief pitcher. He has shown POTENTIAL as a starter. Big difference.

    Read the posts I’ve written. I’ve laid out the the reasons why IF CERTAIN FACTORS ARE IN PLAY, why they have to consider moving him.

    If none of those factors take place, they probably won’t move him.

    That said, I don’t think they want Joba to be an average starting pitcher if he can be an above average relief pitcher.

    JMO, I could be wrong.

  291. Angel - A tale told by idiots, full of sound and fury - signifying nothing. April 29th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    LOL @ mental patients.

  292. Glenn April 29th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    Not to rain on anybody’s parade but it’s all speculation. The only thing that’s certain is that no guarantees come with a pitcher’s arm.
    The best case scenario is that no more health issues occur with the starters or relievers and having Phil Hughes is a gift assuming he pitches similar to last night.
    Nobody knows yet what the status will be with Wang and Bruney. Nothing is etched in stone that Joba will be a starter for the entire season.
    What hangs in the balance is where the Yankees are in the standings during the heat of the pennant race.
    If it becomes a question of Joba being a difference maker in the bullpen for whatever reason, Cashman will abandon the starter plan for Joba before he’ll see another year of no playoffs.

  293. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    The Yanks are reactionary. They will go with Joba as a starter for now until the need arises to throw him back in the pen. What the hell! They have the inning limit on him. What do they do with him if he hits the limit in August. Sit him out for the rest of the year. Hopefully they will still be in the race by then and have need of his services.

  294. NHYankee62 April 29th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    “Yes I did see that but I also know that start was before his injury. It is obvious that every start he has made since then he has been giving an 80% effort and hitters have not looked uncomfortable against him at all. If Hughes out-pitches Joba there is no reason why you don’t keep Hughes in the rotation and put Joba in the pen. That one move would give us the best staff in the game.”

    Again, give me a flipping break!

    Joba has the potential and makeup to be a dominant ace for the next 10-15 years! What’s better: To have that dominant ace pitching 200+ innings a year or to have a setup man/closer pitching 80-100??

    If a pitcher has great stuff and 4 pitches like Joba, you want him to pitch as many innings as possible instead of limiting him to the end of the game.

    I envision a great rotation for years to come featuring Joba, Hughes, and Sabathia.

  295. trisha - click to see my bigger and better Opening Day pictures April 29th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    Hey all! Do people actually sit up worrying about this stuff? (what Pete that blogged about). If so, don’t y’all realize that no matter what you think it probably isn’t going to affect the way things play out – unless it’s a happy coincidence – so you might as well just chill and enjoy the show?

    Don’t know if this has been talked about already, but I understand that Bob Lorenz put up a chart during last night’s postgame that showed the following: Better record with Molina, much lower ERA (Wang may account for part of that), lower BA against, less HRs given up, less walks and more strikeouts.

    Yeah I know, it means Lorenz hates Posada; has the audacity to show something that has no statistical significance; had nothing better to talk about.

    I guess it really isn’t going to make a difference anyway since Jorge is the starting catcher. So even if there is “something to it” we will just have to suck it up and live with it – (or I will anyway since I am the one who has been bugged by this stuff for quite a while now).

  296. Trevor April 29th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    FWIW Gameday had him throwing the FB 92-95 against Boston. They have his FB as a 2-seamer which may explain why the velocity looks down.
    But he just doesn’t have the same command of the 2-seam FB the way does the 4-seam FB.

  297. 86w183 April 29th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    I know this topic gets tired, but it continues because it is so interesting. Also it makes people choose between the better decision long term(start him) and for this season (bullpen).

    I have agreed with SJ and others in that the key is whether or not Joba proves his shoulder and the rest of him is up to being a starter. It’s too soon to make any definitive evaluation as to that question. If the answer is yes he should stay in the rotation.

    Joba has made 15 starts and totalled 81 1/3 innings in those outings, which is slightly better than 5 1/3 per start. A concern has to be that last year in 12 starts he averaged 1.13 strikeouts per inning. This year in three starts he is striking out batters at just over half that pace (.69 K/inning).

  298. Uncle Ellsworth April 29th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    my head hurts

  299. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    “They have the inning limit on him. What do they do with him if he hits the limit in August.”

    ——–

    that’s why he’s the 5th starter. so they can manage his innings, skip occasional starts, and let him pitch the entire season.

  300. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    Watching the Orioles/Angels game. When did George sherrill go on the Terry Forster Diet (one gallon of ice cream before and after each game)?

  301. SJ44 April 29th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    I’m not talking about dominanting tonight Patrick.

    I’m talking about…….

    What if Joba is just an average starter, with average stuff, by the time Wang gets back and Hughes is pitching well?

    What if he is not comfortable starting because he can’t empty the tank like he used to?

    Again, I’m not advocating moving him NOW.

    I am advocating that if he isn’t comfortable throwing the way he is capable of throwing as a starter, then moving him back to the bullpen (for good I might add) is an option that may be on the table.

  302. five iron from fenway April 29th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    SJ – We don’t know what is up with Joba in the first few starts this year. No sane argument can be made without this fact.
    Also – Joba as a starter last year had a better ERA than Beckett and roughly the same WHIP. He was DOMINANT.
    The question is not if Joba can be dominant it is why isn’t he dominant so far this year. Not hard.

  303. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

    “Again, I’m not advocating moving him NOW.

    I am advocating that if he isn’t comfortable throwing the way he is capable of throwing as a starter, then moving him back to the bullpen (for good I might add) is an option that may be on the table.”

    Exactly right…but for God’s sake either leave him as a starter or leave him in the pen. The poor kid doesn’t know what the heck he is.

  304. kylelitke April 29th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    While I agree 100% with the sentiment that sending Joba to the bullpen is BS, if Wang comes back and Hughes has been pitching great, I’d look at how Joba is doing. Right now he looks like crap. It’s not because he’s not in the bullpen, he was throwing 95-97 and touching 99 as a starter last year and in the minors, so for him to be throwing 91 with no control now tells me there’s probably a mechanical issue that needs to be worked out. If he’s worked it out by then, fine, if he hasn’t, then send Joba down and have him figure it out there. Joba has the greater potential of the two, but Hughes has a great deal of potential as well. We aren’t talking about “Oh, Brett Tomko had a few good starts so we can’t send him down” here. I’d likely send down one out of Hughes or Joba rather than go into some whole 6 man rotation or “one is the long man” type thing, but I wouldn’t automatically make that person Hughes.

  305. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    “Wow, V, that’s quite a compelling argument you made right there.

    Took the one bad game he had out of the bullpen and that’s your argument?

    You conveinently left out the first 25 innings scoreless innings of his career. Or the other dominant outings he had as a relief pitcher.”

    It wasn’t an argument. It wasn’t meant as an argument.

    As I say above, you can’t say a 23 year old is ‘done’ as a starter. You try him as a starter for 2, even 3 years, before you ‘give up.’

    People here are waving the white flag based on THREE starts (and his Royals start really wasn’t bad).

  306. saucY April 29th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    GB7, it’s a shame if that’s the case. and you’re right that it probably will be. words to a reporter after game shouldn’ve have any effect on things like that. i know it happens all the time though, in all sports.

    umpires/refs arent put in that position though. no post-game interviews. if they were, i’m sure their emotions would get the best of them and make them look foolish, more often than not…

  307. Pat M April 29th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    The game is over 3 hours away, and we have a wealth of loonies already….

  308. tom April 29th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    if hughes is pitching really, really well when it’s time for wang to come back…and joba is pitching so-so…do you send joba down instead…and have him start in AAA?…not saying we should…just wondering what others think….

  309. Rishi April 29th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    I know Joba has not been amazing – but he did hand the bullpen a lead in 2 of 3 starts (against pretty good teams) that they couldn’t hang on to for him.

    just sayin’

  310. you gotta have faith (right porch giveth and the right porch taketh away) April 29th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    very interesting to see how this plays out.

    meanwhile 2 more schools have closed down in my area because of the swine flu. oy vey.

  311. Sox Fan April 29th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Could you imagine how stressed Girardi and Cashman are thinking about this stuff?

  312. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    second,

    who is to assume that Joba’s 9 walks in the last 10 innings just goes away if he goes to the pen?

    if he is having control issues as a starter, they dont just magically disappear as a reliever.

    address the issue with Joba, if necessary, and get him back to being the pitcher he is.

  313. trisha - click to see my bigger and better Opening Day pictures April 29th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    And hey, after having read a few of these posts, going from the latest to the less recent, one thing I think people need to ackknowledge is this: there are people on both sides of the Joba debate, including sportwriters.

    Chances are that no matter what side you stack up on, there is someone out there who can/has made a cogent argument for the other side. I personally can understand both sides though my preferance is to see him in the rotation.

    And again, the Yankees will end up doing what they think is best for the club, so no amount of angst, analysis, and hand-wringing is going to make any difference.

    JMO

  314. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    “I am advocating that if he isn’t comfortable throwing the way he is capable of throwing as a starter, then moving him back to the bullpen (for good I might add) is an option that may be on the table.”

    Not in 2009.

    Before moving him to the bullpen, just trade him. You can get a solid All Star caliber offensive talent for Joba, straight up. And that’s worth more than a reliever. Anyday.

  315. Patrick April 29th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    “What if Joba is just an average starter, with average stuff, by the time Wang gets back and Hughes is pitching well?”

    You still give him a year to see how he holds up physically. He hasn’t had a full season of being a starting pitcher yet, he needs time to develop.

    Joba’s situation shouldn’t be linked to any other player’s performance. He is that important to this team. No matter what happens with the team, Joba needs a full season as a starting pitcher. After the season is over the team can reassess. If his average fastball velocity is 91, his k/9 is way down and he’s healthy through it all I would consider moving him to the bullpen. The bottom line is, he needs much much more than 1-2 months before the Yankees can make this determination.

    Why is every other stellar starting pitching prospect in the league given every shot in the world to make it but Joba isn’t? It really is absurd. Joba as a starter is a once in a lifetime talent, he should be given EVERY POSSIBLE opportunity to make it as a starter before we even consider changing his role.

  316. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    “As I say above, you can’t say a 23 year old is ‘done’ as a starter. You try him as a starter for 2, even 3 years, before you ‘give up.’

    People here are waving the white flag based on THREE starts (and his Royals start really wasn’t bad).”

    ———-

    you mean the Royals shouldn’t have moved Zack Greinke to the bullpen after the poor start to his career?

    :)

  317. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    “Could you imagine how stressed Girardi and Cashman are thinking about this stuff?”

    I bet they don’t. He’s a starter. Period.

  318. five iron from fenway April 29th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    Rishi – good point. He was the best pitcher against Boston. No one is starting the AJ to the bullpen question because he blew up after the 4th inning against Boston, or the Mo should be the mop up guy because he gave up the Bay home run.

  319. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    “The question is not if Joba can be dominant it is why isn’t he dominant so far this year. Not hard.”

    5IFF:

    There is also the question of durability. Assuming he can get back to being closer to dominant, how long can he do so. Is it 10 starts and to the DL, like last year? He has no real history in that regard.

  320. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    Dave

    I guess we can throw Joba into the pen and find out what he’s got left? LOL

  321. trisha - click to see my bigger and better Opening Day pictures April 29th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    “Could you imagine how stressed Girardi and Cashman are thinking about this stuff?”

    I actually imagine they are not, and that the stress is totally with the fans. They’ve been at this a long time and I can almost guarantee you that they have the good sense to make decisions at the time, based on what they see, and what is needed.

  322. randy l. April 29th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    “or I will anyway since I am the one who has been bugged by this stuff for quite a while now”

    trisha-

    ” don’t y’all realize that no matter what you think it probably isn’t going to affect the way things play out – unless it’s a happy coincidence – so you might as well just chill and enjoy the show?”

    i’ve discovered a new game- trisha answering trisha :)

  323. George April 29th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    from mark feinsand….

    If Hughes keeps pitching like this and all five other starters are healthy, is it possible that the Yankees would go with six starters? That would certainly help keep Joba Chamberlain’s workload down, which is definitely a goal for the team.

  324. Bronx Jeers April 29th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    Joba’s performance so far this season kind of reminds me of his performance during his sobriety test.

    It wasn’t bad per se but it also wasn’t good to the point that people wanted to throw him in the PENitentiary. :lol:

  325. Andrew April 29th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    “you mean the Royals shouldn’t have moved Zack Greinke to the bullpen after the poor start to his career?”

    You mean, the Zack Greinke that hasn’t allowed an earned run since last season? Yeah, he should be closing for the Royals now since Soria is hurt, they are wasting his true calling.

  326. V April 29th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    “There is also the question of durability. Assuming he can get back to being closer to dominant, how long can he do so. Is it 10 starts and to the DL, like last year? He has no real history in that regard.”

    He started 15 games in the minors in 2007, and didn’t have the shoulder problem he had last year.

  327. Scorpio April 29th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    Courtesy of YESNETWORK.COM

    “Brian Cashman said it best the day he announced he was staying with the Yankees: If the Yankees spend money, they’re criticized for doing so frivolously. If they build a program – gee, what a concept – they take heat for blowing off a chance to win right now. You can’t have it both ways, folks. But what Hughes provided in his best start since that night he tossed 6 1/3 no-hit innings is optimism that Cashman’s vision will actually work. You don’t proclaim Hughes a success off one start, but you neither call Chien-Ming Wang a lost cause nor Joba Chamberlain a failed starter either. “

  328. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    “I know Joba has not been amazing – but he did hand the bullpen a lead in 2 of 3 starts (against pretty good teams) that they couldn’t hang on to for him.

    just sayin’”

    Yeah, but Joba was “just sayin’” to the bullpen “get me 12 freakin’ outs”. You only offer 5 very mediocre innings as he did in those two games, you don’t get to have a beef with the bullpen.

  329. eric in queens April 29th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    I think Joba went on the DL within days of beating Beckett last year.

  330. RayVT April 29th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    I am always amazed at people who say someone is better than someone else because of statistics. Aaron Small had a great 2nd half season and was victorious over a lot of games. But that success garnered him very little the next year because he was not a quality starter. He was a great guy, hard worker and a battler but not inherently good. Teams live and die for Quality starters. If I remember correctly, LOL, many on here wanted Phil Franchise and a host of other players to be traded for 1 starter named Johan! How many people would have wanted to trade the same personel for a quality setup guy? And name a Closer that you would trade the same people for. Baseball is a funny long term game. 162 game season. All the position player starters don’t start every game, yet they are better than their opponents. They are there for the long haul and even for much more than 1 season. Joba is a potential #1 starter. Hopefully he will make it. Hughes is a potential #1 starter as well. Both are key to long term Yankee success. There is a reason the Yankees brought in 2 new starters and re-signed Andy. Let’s not try to make too much of April starts. When the weather heats up so do the fastballs.

    I do agree with some of you since Joba has an innings limit, he may end up in the pen in Sept or Oct and the playoffs for sure unless the Yanks don’t make it.

  331. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    ““you mean the Royals shouldn’t have moved Zack Greinke to the bullpen after the poor start to his career?”

    You mean, the Zack Greinke that hasn’t allowed an earned run since last season? Yeah, he should be closing for the Royals now since Soria is hurt, they are wasting his true calling.”

    ——–

    case closed

  332. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    marlins take the lead..another tough luck game for santana

  333. Sam April 29th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    I didn’t think his start against Boston was that bad. He kept the team in the game, as all #5 starters should do. And how many other Yankee pitchers in that series were able to get double plays? We applaud Wang when he gets them, why not Joba?

  334. trisha - click to see my bigger and better Opening Day pictures April 29th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    randy -

    Astute of you to notice that I have enough self awareness to figure out that I don’t have any impact on Yankee decisions, therefore I am wise enough to chill.

    :D

    At least I pose questions on what appears to be a real issue, as opposed to need to analyze every pitch and every hit and try to move around every player and dump someone daily!

    (not saying you do that; just a proclivity I’ve noticed on the forum. I’m not lucky enough to be able to spend my days and nights here and so know every post that is posted by every person!)

    ;)

  335. Boston Dave April 29th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    no pun intended

  336. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    Not much changing in the Mets bullpen. 3-2 lead in the 8th inning, and putz gives up two runs to blow Santana’s win. two walks and a single.

  337. DocBooch April 29th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    ” 2. Joba Chamberlain has never been Josh Beckett yet in this rotation. He has the POTENTIAL to be, if he can stay healthy and productive. However, potential and results are two entirely different things.”

    I guess you didn’t watch Joba out pitch him last year in Boston to get the win. Beckett’s stats are not outstanding in any stretch of a season. Granted, he is a big game pitcher who rises to the occassion, but hardly consistent.

  338. S.A.--Honk if you hate hobbits April 29th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    I wonder if Santana is screaming right now: “You Putz!”

  339. Joltin' Joe April 29th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    Ray VT

    So the Yanks are in a rebuilding phase. How refreshing.

  340. Andrew April 29th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    Well done, Boston Dave. It’s a really good parallel though, because Greinke and Joba both have amazing pure stuff and Greinke went through his own similar (to a certain extent) growing pains. Now last year and this year the Royals are starting to see the payoff of sticking with him as a starter, though.

  341. trisha - click to see my bigger and better Opening Day pictures April 29th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

    *my guy’s MINORS UPDATE*

    Down in High A Tampa another starting pitcher that I’m high on, Wilkin De La Rosa, continues to show why he is a top pitching prospect with a solid outing. De La Rosa threw 5 innings of scoreless 3 hit ball with a walk and 7 strikeouts. In two starts (9IP) he has yet to allow a run and the opponents BA sits at .138. De La Rosa also seems to pitch well from the stretch too. So far opponents are batting zilch when runners are on base. Signed way back in 2001 as a non-drafted FA he was originally an outfielder and then converted to pitching in 2007. Since then he’s done nothing but kick ass.

    In Trenton reliever Mike Dunn continues a strong start with 2 innings of scoreless relief yesterday. So far in 11 2/3 IP Mike has only allowed 1 earned run on 8 hits, 2 walks and 18 Ks. Opponents are hitting a buck-ninety against him. Also in Trenton LF Colin Curtis is having a good start. In 60+ ABs Colin is batting .371 with a .532 SLG%.

    And finally Scranton lost their 3rd game yesterday dropping their recond on the season to 15-3. The slugs. But seriously, losing pitchers like Hughes and Melancon to the Majors is rough.

  342. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    “Not much changing in the Mets bullpen. 3-2 lead in the 8th inning, and putz gives up two runs to blow Santana’s win. two walks and a single.”

    You know I feel bad for Santana. Almost.

  343. DT April 29th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    Pete had the best advice –
    “Here’s a wild thought: Sit back and watch the game tonight and stop worrying about it”

    Is Joba an ace? Is Joba hurt? Is Joba a fluke? Is Joba really Joba?

    Damn, my head hurts. I needed a 30 minute time-out in the quiet solitude of the LoHud Mets blog to chill out.

  344. Rishi April 29th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    Rob Neyer’s thoughts on whether or not Pettite belongs in the HOF:

    http://myespn.go.com/blogs/swe.....Coop-.html

  345. Roger(the new amsterdam yankees ) April 29th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    so who will be the better pitcher in 2010.joba or hughes?

  346. raymagnetic April 29th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    “At least I pose questions on what appears to be a real issue, as opposed to need to analyze every pitch and every hit and try to move around every player and dump someone daily!”

    Trisha,

    What you do is pose ridiculous questions asking if Molina would be a better everyday catcher than a guy who’s won WS rings and over 1000 games as a catcher.

  347. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    saucY
    April 29th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
    GB7, it’s a shame if that’s the case. and you’re right that it probably will be. words to a reporter after game shouldn’ve have any effect on things like that. i know it happens all the time though, in all sports.

    umpires/refs arent put in that position though. no post-game interviews. if they were, i’m sure their emotions would get the best of them and make them look foolish, more often than not…

    ————————————————————

    Not sure who printed the report of the interview or if it was on camera, but, Jim Palmer had the remarks on the game, today. The umpire was Angel Hernandez. Walker can always claim to be misquoted unless somebody has it on tape or video. So far, the only quote I’ve found on O’s board leaves the integrity quote left out.

  348. Steve B April 29th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Rishi:

    Neyer’s assessment seems pretty fair. I don’t see Pettitte as HOF-worthy either, but his case is not totally ridiculous.

  349. trisha - click to see my bigger and better Opening Day pictures April 29th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    DT – do you think it is something inherent in individual personalities? Can you imagine how awesome it would be if everyone had the ability to just sit back and enjoy the game?

    That sure would work for me!

    :)

  350. Scorpio April 29th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    There’s a LoHud Mets blog???

  351. no.27 April 29th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    “If his stuff is still like this in another 2-3 weeks, they need to make some decisions with him, IMO.

    What we have seen so far this year, stuff-wise, I’m not talking results, is not Joba Chamberlain.”

    “I might add that IF they were to ever move him back, it has to be for good. He has to be groomed at that point to take over for Mariano as the closer when Mariano retires.”

    So if you were running the Yankees and Joba Chamberlain doesn’t go back to consistently throwing his fastball in the mid to high 90s with better movement on his breaking pitches over the next THREE WEEKS you’d be ready to send him to the bullpen and keep him there for his entire career? You’ve already said you can’t send him down to the minors because he’s one of the Yankees top 6 pitchers.

    Joba Chamberlain shouldn’t be given less of a chance to succeed as a starter just because he’s shown he can dominate as a reliever. That just doesn’t make sense. He’s got the potential to be as good as any starter in baseball. He should be given every opportunity to become that because that’s how he is most valuable to the Yankees.

  352. trisha - click to see my bigger and better Opening Day pictures April 29th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    “What you do is pose ridiculous questions asking if Molina would be a better everyday catcher than a guy who’s won WS rings and over 1000 games as a catcher.”

    Ray, it is ridiculous to you because you are sold on Posada. I have no problem with that. There are a lot of people currently asking questions about Jorge’s game calling, right or wrong. So I consider myself perspicacious to have started asking about it last season. People are asking the questions for a reason. And for Lorenz to put it up on a chart and for Kay to ask Girardi whether Molina was going to be catching all of Burnett’s games, you have to understand that people are asking questions about Posada.

    Whether you think the questions are valid, they are out there. I think everyone asking the questions will be thrilled to death if they find out the questions were unnecessary.

    What we have as fact is that certain pitchers have asked that Posada not catch their games. Someone told me today that David Cone was also on that list.

    I really don’t have a total pulse on it, and maybe it’s just the way it is, but pitchers seem to do better with Molina catching. Or at least it seems that way.

    But I respect your right to think it’s a tempest in a teapot. Maybe it is.

  353. bru April 29th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    the problem i have with the joba conversation is that he started all his life.

    people were saying he was throwing hard late in games.

    i hope that joba isn’t caught between starting & the pen subconciously.

    at least when joba pitches we are in the games throughout.
    i can’t say that for any yankee pitcher except pettitte.
    cc & burnett on a few occasions also but not consistently.

    another thing is what happens if melancon is the real thing,bruney comes back solid.

    where does joba fit in?

  354. Jeter2007 April 29th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    if hughes is 4-1 w/ a 2.85 era then he’s staying in the bigs. any person who starts 4+ games, goes 4-1, and has a 2.85 era is studly and all-star worthy & won’t be sent down to the minors.
    it’s just a question for now, but one mgmt has to be thinking about. it’s still way too early, but if joba continues his 11k/10bb ratio & 1.81 whip to/through june then maybe he would be more useful in a different spot.

  355. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    Jon Ringland
    April 29th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
    “Not much changing in the Mets bullpen. 3-2 lead in the 8th inning, and putz gives up two runs to blow Santana’s win. two walks and a single.”

    You know I feel bad for Santana. Almost.

    ————————————————————

    Pretty much the same. I only care how he will pitch 2 games a year. I tossed this out to hopefully run the Mets yea-whos off. a couple more like that, and they’ll be off by themselves, slinging snot and crying on each others’ shoulders.

  356. DT April 29th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    “DT – do you think it is something inherent in individual personalities? Can you imagine how awesome it would be if everyone had the ability to just sit back and enjoy the game?”

    It would be like LoHud on Prozac…lol

    Most fans have a myopic view, I understand that.
    A player strikes out – they stink.
    Same player hits a homer – they are great.

    It’s a hill and valley approach. Lots of ups and downs.
    I guess the only positive is, the highs must seem really high.

    I’m happy for Hughes. I hope he does well. It’s only one game though. And it’s a looooooong season.

    It’s a good story. Phil Phenom. The future looked so good. He falls, and falls hard.
    It’s nice to see him get back up, work hard, and succeed.. He seems like a decent guy.

  357. 86w183 April 29th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Some need to back away from how DOMINANT you claim Joba has been as a starter.

    Last year in 12 starts he went 7 innings just once. He averaged just over 5 1/3 innings a start and was 3-1, 2.76.

    That’s good, very good, but dominant starters go deeper into games on a regular basis.

    This will play itself out and we’ll keep batting it back and forth… I enjoy it.

    The Greinke parallel is not all that fitting. First he never proved himself as a stud out of the bullpen like Joba did. Second he does not have the injury history Joba has calling into question his long term durability. Third he’s not pitching for a perrennial contender where decisions between future goals and immediate needs are often in competition.

    Let’s hope Joba goes 7 1/3 scoreless tonight with 10 K and we can toss this aside… for a day or two.

  358. ANSKY April 29th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Jon Ringland –

    Earlier in the thread you made it sound like you felt Joba in the pen would produce 40 wins against the 20 wins he could produce as a starter. Not exactly what you said bu that’s the apparent idea. Two questions for you:

    1: Do you think Mariano’s a 40-50 win pitcher?

    2: If CC, AJ, Pettitte, and Wang win an average 15 games each, then 30 other games are won by other pitchers including Joba, Hughes, Pee Wee Herman and various relievers, and Mariano saves 40 games, does that mean the team has won 90 games or 130?

  359. DT April 29th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    Scorpio
    April 29th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
    There’s a LoHud Mets blog???

    Yup. Tell James K. I sent ya. Maybe there’s a finders fee. ;-)

    http://mets.lohudblogs.com/

  360. DocBooch April 29th, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    Trisha,

    I think Jorgie’s game has come long away since when Cone pitched in 97-00. Like what another commenter said yesterday. These stats are skewed, just because someone with a head on the shoulder makes some valid points about it and extrapolates from a small stat sample doesn’t make it true.

    The fact is that this team wins more games when Posada is in the lineup then any other catcher, period. It is undisputed and incontravertible.

  361. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    86w183
    April 29th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    Let’s hope Joba goes 7 1/3 scoreless tonight with 10 K and we can toss this aside… for a day or two.

    ————————————————————

    Are you kidding? If he can do that in a game….just think about him 4-5 times a week….that’s 12-15 strikeouts a week. He would lead the league this year.

  362. Jon Ringland April 29th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    “1: Do you think Mariano’s a 40-50 win pitcher?

    2: If CC, AJ, Pettitte, and Wang win an average 15 games each, then 30 other games are won by other pitchers including Joba, Hughes, Pee Wee Herman and various relievers, and Mariano saves 40 games, does that mean the team has won 90 games or 130?”

    1) If by win you mean pitches 5 innings or more with the lead then no. If you mean do I think that his pitching one inning 40-50 times a year wins helps win us 40-50 games then yes.

    2) The math you have done in this question makes it difficult for a man of my mathematical prowess to answer. Bottom line is that I’d rather see Joba lend his services in helping the yankees win as many games as possible. This will happen only if he is a reliever

  363. GreenBeret7 April 29th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    Strange decision by Jerry Manuel. 2 outs, bases loaded 9th inning trailing by a run and you decide on Santos over Delagado?

  364. Laszlo April 29th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    First, I am not an advocate of Joba to the bullpen, as I believe from watching him through the minors that his ability, provided injuries do not detract, lends itself well to a top of the rotation starter. That said, it seems that nearly all of the Joba to the bullpen discussion makes an assumption that he must be used in the sterotypical “closers role” that baseball has defined recently, including the one inning save. Instead, I propose that if it is deemed a better idea for Joba to be a reliever that he is used for multiple innings, ala Goose Gossage. It would shorten the game even further to have your starter go 6, with Joba out there 2-3 times a week for a 9 out save. With this method you could condition him for 150+ innings a year, in a closers role, and have the best of both worlds.

  365. MaineYankee April 29th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    GB7

    I think they said Delgado is hurt. Not sure what, just caught part of the conservation.

  366. DocBooch April 29th, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    I hate to throw fuel on the fire to this thing, but I remember a certain pitcher in the eighties who was lights out and even threw a no-hitter who suddenly and inexplicably to me at the time (even though I was 11 yo)was made the closer. It kind of worked out for him and the team, but I hated it at the time.

    Dave Righetti for you youngsters.

  367. DocBooch April 29th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    Just wanted to go on record as saying if there was no Mo, Joba would be the closer. But, the eigth inning is in no stretch of the imagination, the ninth inning. There is a reason why closers are just that. Joba in the eigth is a waste of talent as we witnessed early last year.

  368. DocBooch April 29th, 2009 at 4:47 pm

    excuse my poor spelling….eighth duh

  369. disco stu April 29th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    Another aruguement in the “Great Joba Debate’ is for all of those who continually say that Joba has to prove himself in the starting rotation, the counter arguement can also be, when did Joba ever prove he could pitch multiple games out of the bullpen?

    From what I remember, when Joba was pitching out of the bullpen between August 2007 and May 2008, the Yankees consistently stayed away from using him back to back days.
    So how do we know that he could continue throwing 98mph gas back to back days or 3 out of 4 days throughout an entire season?

  370. disco stu April 29th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    Another aruguement in the “Great Joba Debate’ is for all of those who continually say that Joba has to prove himself in the starting rotation, the counter arguement can also be, when did Joba ever prove he could pitch multiple games out of the bullpen?

    From what I remember, when Joba was pitching out of the bullpen between August 2007 and May 2008, the Yankees consistently stayed away from using him back to back days.
    So how do we know that he could continue throwing 98mph gas back to back days or 3 out of 4 days throughout an entire season?

  371. lets play April 29th, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    lets play hypothetical GM – please keep in mind this is for amusement only and not to be taking seriously (and also to steer away from this joba to the pen nonsense)

    would you trade right now:
    Joba for Sizemore (guaranteeing that wang will be back to normal and hughes will be a really good #2 or #3 – maybe even a #1)

    Joba for BJ Upton (same scenario as above)

    wang and 3 good minor league pitchers for either sizemore or upton

    cano for kinsler

    wang, melky and 2 minor league pitchers for aaron rowand, zito and sanchez

    wang, melky and 2 minor league pitchers for granderson and inge

    go at it….

  372. jldraw April 29th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    Jobber belongs in the bullpen. That’s where he’s been most effective, when he came out of the pen for the 8th inning he reminded me of Gossage all pumped up and ready to roll.

    Jobber used to whizz fastballs by batters before striking them out with nasty sliders now that the Yankees have put him in the starting rotation they have seemed to have taken all the intensity away from Jobber because he knows he has to pace himself to get through six or seven innings on the mound.

    That’s why Jobber belongs in the bullpen, you put him in the pen along with Bruney and Melancon and Coke and whomever else you wanna keep down there and have them lock up the games until you bring Mo in the ninth. If Hughes and Chien Ming Wang are performing well in June it allows you the chance to put this flame thrower into the pen where he can lock down games for you. Jobber has been automatic in the late innings but as a starter he hasn’t been the same guy because of what I said before. Unless Jobber is able to match what he brought to the team as a reliever as a start than The Yankees are foolish not to utilize this guy where he would best serve this ballclub. Because the bullpen right now outside of Brian Bruney and the little we’ve seen from Mark Melancon is in shambles right now.

    End of story. Five o’ clock heres Mr. Mets…

  373. Vince April 29th, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    If you have a player who can almost undoubtedly be the next closer for the New York Yankees, given what we have seen, why play with that?

    The makeup to be an ace? When has he proven so? He has pitched 7 innings in a game one time I believe. Not saying that he can’t be an ace. But, the aura of Joba has completely disintegrated once he moved to the rotation. He no longer has that presence around him. The Yankees can always go out and buy a starter.

    They cannot go out and buy a reliever who they already know can take the heat and pressure in the NY bullpen.

  374. Jeter2007 April 29th, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    DT, you’re right. I’m glad Phil has pitched great in yesterday’s game. And i really hope he can keep it up and have at least an above-average year.
    I’m tired now. I hope Joba pitches great tonight. GO YANKS!

  375. Jimbo April 29th, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    If, as Pete says, Wang comes back and “in early June … Hughes is 4-1, 2.85″ then you don’t automatically shake Hughes’ hand and send him back to Scranton, as Pete says, you look at Joba’s numbers, likely determine he’s not panning out to be the dominant starter most have annointed him to be, shake JOBA’s hand and send him to the pen.

    Get back to me when Joba becomes what most people expected, because he’s not a shell of that now. 91 MPH is ok, but Hughes is throwing harder. Get back to me when Joba can take the mound without taxing the pen.

    And guess what? The days of saying “it’s only April” are dwindling fast. Based on what I’ve seen thus far, Hughes is a better starter than Joba.

  376. Shanghai Bob April 29th, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    Your post is right on. This whole Joba to the bull-pen nonsense does not make sense regardless of Phil’s performance. I hope Joba puts up a solid performance to shut down these voices for a while.

  377. Vincent April 29th, 2009 at 8:20 pm

    Thank you.

  378. sfochild April 29th, 2009 at 8:58 pm

    just a question, do the yankees have much in the way of catchers in their farm system? I’m not saying that we should trade away our new depth, but a package involving someone like ian kennedy for a catching prospect might not be a bad idea if someone will go for it…

  379. Ross April 29th, 2009 at 9:56 pm

    A-Jo needs to be sent down immediately. You don’t give up a lead off walk with a 7 run lead. And yes I am trademarking the A-Jo nickname.


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