Pitching matchups for the Texas series
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on May 25, 2009 
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it would be nice to see the yankees in 1st place by 3 or 4 games for a change.
The Red Sox are going on a 10 game road trip; the Yanks in first place in a week is not out of the question.
Welcome back Pete! Keep the info. coming.
“But I will say one thing. It sure stinks that these kinds of things that coaches do with the players aren’t documented and filed for future reference. Especially with the way personnel changes among coaches happens so frequently.”
doreen-
that’s not a bad idea. with video so good now, there’s a record of what players are doing from the outside”, but not what they’re thinking or trying to do at a given time.
in golf , swing thoughts are a fundamental part of the game. things like take it back slow, turn and turn, approach the ball on an inside path, etc. i played golf with a simple thought a senior tour pro told me that hogan had told him as a young pro.
if some new swing coach didn’t understand this secret move my swing was based on he wouldn’t have a clue teaching me or understanding how my swing worked. baseball likewise has it’s “thoughts” that a player uses when trying to either hit or pitch.
wang was given a dramatic new set of pitching thoughts from neil allen and instantly became a dominant starter. these instructions from allen seem to have been lost. as you said,it would be great if these kind of instructions would be documented in an organized way.
i’m sure some players keep journals of what “thoughts” they are playing at with at any time, but this is probably a rarity. wang doesn’t seem like he’s that self aware of what he’s doing. on the other hand he seems to follow instructions well as allen was able to get him to use his instructions immediately.
in golf, it would never occur to anyone that all pro swing coaches would be able to work with all pro golfers. in baseball , pitchers are under a coach who may or may not have a coaching philosophy that works with an individual pitcher, yet he is in charge of the whole pitching staff.
in a case where a pitcher like wang , where the results were changed so dramatically , it would be ideal if that pitching coach were to stay with that pitcher maybe forever. in golf, that’s exactly what would happen. in baseball, a player coaching relationship only is supposed to last as long as the player and coach are on the same team.
with this short term baseball player coaching relationship, things that were taught that resulted in success can be lost. it looks like this has happened with wang. it’s not that eiland isn’t a good professional pitching coach. it’s just that he has a different set of things he emphasizes.
the specific” pitching thoughts” that neil allen put in wang seem to have been lost. eiland is trying to use his approach to get wang back to what he was, but the life on wang’s sinker may only work with the set of instructions that allen gave him.
all coached do not teach the same thing. no one approach works for all pitchers. as long as a pitching coaches loyalty is tied to the team and not the player, it really would be good to leave a record of what each pitching coach did with each pitcher.
for example, what did guidry do that allowed wang to win 19 games under him twice ?it would be nice to have a record of it. one thing that allowed guidry to have success as wang’s pitching coach was that guidry and allen are close friends.
i have no doubt that if guidry would have had a problem with wang he couldn’t figure out he’d call neil even though they worked in different organizations. this kind of off the record exchange of info transcends team obligations. of course team managements would frown on this , but it’s a part of the game. personal loyalties sometimes trump team loyalties.
it is doubtful eiland and allen have that relationship. i would guess that the wang /allen connection continued through 2007. in 2008 , he was probably on his own for the first time since learning the sinker.
all 3 texas pitchers going in the series have a better era than the yankee starters going.
i know it is early but texas has been getting suprisingly good pitching.
Winning every series should always be the goal, and also for this upcoming road trip in Texas. Of course winning every game should be the goal, but everybody can be happy with series wins.
Let’s go Yankees!
Nice -Pete Abe back in the house!
i understand wang struggling for a bit but to totally & permanently forget how to pitch is mind blowing.
wang has a limited arsenal so when his number one pitch doesn’t work he gets lit up.should of traded high with him.
“it would be ideal if that pitching coach were to stay with that pitcher maybe forever. in golf, that’s exactly what would happen.”
Tiger Woods would vehemenently disagree with you since he’s had multiple swing coaches in his illustrious career and still manages to be the best player in the game.
I’d like Buster Olney to make up his mind.
In his “good, bad, and ugly” he lists Joe Mauer in the good for having 10 hr and his career high is 13.
Then a minute ago he knocks the stadium again.
Could there be something more then the new stadium just being a hitters park?
From yesterday – why not bunt with a man on third – a suicide or safety squeeze might have worked – bunting is a lost art
Welcome back Pete!
There really can’t be uniform rules per se when it comes to developing players.
Sometimes, 2 coaches can say the same thing but HOW they say it makes the difference.
In Wang’s case, it’s simple. His foot injury messed up his mechanics. They aren’t teaching him a higher arm slot. The higher arm slot is a byproduct of him still not trusting his foot.
Only thing that’s going to change it is repetition and Wang trusting his foot. When that happens, his proper arm slot will be back.
Welcome Back Pete!!! You were sorely missed. The blog just was not the same without you.
we need to get wang & burnett straightened out soon.
I am smelling a sweep…by Texas
Good morning and welcome back Pete. It wasn’t the same here without ya. I’m glad to see that you at least had a great time during your furlough (altho I’m sure you’d rather have been working). I look forward to more excellent coverage by everyone’s favorite beat writer.
This game will certainly test Phil Hughes. I hope he does well and I also hope he gives us at least 6 good innings.
Happy Memorial Day, thank you to and God Bless all of our Vets and the families of those who have made the ultimate scarifice to protect our freedom and our way of life.
Welcome back Peter on this beautiful Monday in Yankeeland.
* ultimate sacrifice
Can’t wait to see what kind of reception Teixeira and Arod get in Texas! I’m not sure who gets boo’d LOUDER. lol The Rangers have been pitching well but with the Yankees hitting as well as they have, I see their ERA jumping up just a but after the 3 games, while losing 2 of 3.
I’d love to see Phil pitch like he did last year before coming out of that game. This is the time to make a statement about themselves. Many Yankees hit well in Arlington and they need to jump into first so the Boston faithful can start with their usual verbage about TEE buying a championship. Welcome Back Pete!
Keep reporting on the absurdity of the $2,500 seats. I love those stories.
Welcome back, Pete. No offense to Sam, but you were missed.
You know, we can talk about the effect of coaching all day long, but – and this might be naive on my part, since I’m not an athlete by any means – I would think a professional would make it his business to know what accounts for his success. It’s his bread and butter, after all.
I keep thinking back to what Wang was quoted as saying, that everything was fine. If that’s what he truly thought…
Arod will get booed like crazy. Especially the way he painted Texas when he was there 01-03. Made it sound like they were running a steroid clinic down there.
Teixeira will get some boos too. But he was traded from there. It’s not as if he left on his own. His boos won’t be nearly as bad as Arod boos.
i am rooting for hughes.
the time is coming where he has to start stepping up.
“Tiger Woods would vehemenently disagree with you since he’s had multiple swing coaches in his illustrious career and still manages to be the best player in the game.”
raymagnetic-
you actually make my point that woods uses a custom swing coach of his choosing. he isn’t assigned a random coach by whatever “team” he is playing on.
in tiger’s case he’s had two swing coaches as a pro, butch harmon and hank haney.
harmon and haney are in the top 5 swing coaches in the game. tiger would not be dropping down to number thirty just because he was on say a rider cup team.
i’m making a simple point. in baseball pitching coaches are changed everytime a player is traded or when a new coach comes. that’s not necessarily the best approach.
with wang , this change of coaches is part of the problem. eiland may be perfectly fine in general principles, but he doesn’t seem to know what makes wang’s sinker tick.
if he did , it would be ticking wouldn’t it ?
we can debate the issue indefinitely, but there will be results on the field that will give the final decision of who is right. so far eiland and the yankees are not getting results.
i’d be delighted if they do, but if eialnd is just turning wang back into the four seam fastball, sinker slider, change up guy he was before neil allen got him and gave him a new set of instructions that isn’t going to cut it.
that’s the danger of what is happening right now. wang is still not at full strength . he was 96-97 when allen shortened his stride to throw the sinker. if wang tried that short stride now he’d drop down to 89-90 with the sinker.
that’s not going to be as hard to hit as the 93-95 sinker wang had. i disagree with bringing wag back to the yankees before his velocity is back. his sinker isn’t going to work at low speed and he’ll subconsciously stride further trying to cature those extra mph which will make the sinker flatten out.
Welcome Home Pete
Welcome back Pete.
Since joining the Yankees, Alex has always gotten booed loudly when going back to Texas. This time won’t be any different.
For certain, with Wang’s injury last season, we are can see how the foot bone is connected to the arm bone, so to speak. At the time, I’m sure many of us were saying, well, at least it’s a foot injury and not an arm injury (elbow, shoulder). And for the most part, that’s still a valid sentiment; but I’d venture to say that most of us figured that once the foot was healed, he’d rehab and all systems would be, if not “go,” then pretty close to it.
I think there is something to be said for the language differential where Wang is concerned, even with an interpreter.
And we all need to understand that this project of getting Wang back on track is just going to take time. I bet when all is said and done this injury will have caused him to basically miss one full year of service.
Texas has been pitching well but the Yankees have done well in Texas over the years, no? I only wish today was a night game. And why oh why do they play day games in a place that gets hotter than hot? Maybe Teixeira has some tips for his teammates on how to thrive there.
A lot of points about the Yankees alterning Wang’s arm slot,
or maybe not- this point is debatable, it’s clear Wang’s slot has changed whether or not the truth can come out that the Yankees did it or it’s somewhat self-imposed as a lingering effect of his foot injury from last year, hard to get this truth out…
However, at some point, doesn’t Wang’s success depend on Wang? Or will it always be the fault or the credit of a pitching coach? Sure these guys can teach and mentor and fine-tune but at the end of the day doesn’t the pitcher need to make pitches?
At what point does Wang take ownership over his own career? He is after all 29, this is his 5th season in the ML and he has started around 100 big league games.At what point does is Wang responsible for understanding what makes himself tick, assess his real capabilities and make adjustments on his own without the need for what seems like babying from a pitching coach?
I think Wang is a good pitcher but he needs to mature a little even at 29.
I’m a little worried about young pitchers in Texas. We don’t exactly have the greatest track record there.
“In Wang’s case, it’s simple. His foot injury messed up his mechanics. They aren’t teaching him a higher arm slot. The higher arm slot is a byproduct of him still not trusting his foot.
Only thing that’s going to change it is repetition and Wang trusting his foot. When that happens, his proper arm slot will be back.”
sj44-
it’s not exactly simple because wang is still not back to normal and he’s on the yankee staff.
if he’s not healthy as you say, why is he there?
how’s he supposed to build up strength in a situation where winning matters ?
it seems like an odd way to rehab someone if it’s as simple as you say.
i think the fact he’s on the yankees and not 100% shows the yankees are not handling this well.
The Yankees made a decision (though it seemed perhaps a bit rash) to bring Wang back up because of a team need. They understood that Wang was not “back” yet – obviously, since he was on his way back to SWB when they changed their minds after Joba took the hit to the knee.
Ideally, Wang is in SWB right now, and the Yankees know that.
With all the agita over Wang, and what makes him tick – one thought came to mind.
At what point does one make the calculation that – no matter the reason – that Wang isn’t going to regain his magic, and that it’s time to make a change? I know this may seem coldhearted, but baseball is, after all, a business. At what point do you say that he’s not going to get it going and recapture what he once had here in NY, and it’s time to make a deal while he still is a valuable chip?
We know the issues in the OF. Austin Jackson – and I hate thinking of any young player as a savior – is a year away, at least. Anyone think Wang could bring back a good young starting OF?
I think Phil Hughes is going to be watched very carefully tonight, for a lot of reasons, one of which may be for the Yankees to figure out just how expendable Wang is.
And lest anyone think I’m hating on Wang – I’m not. Based on what I’ve read, he seems to be a great guy. But at some point, if what randy I indicates has some truth to it, you have to think that if the Yanks can’t fix him, better for both parties for him to move on.
doreen-
i’m not sure what need he’s filling because we’d all freak out if he was brought into a close game.
i guess he’s filling the mop up role. that just doesn’t seem very important enough to mess with a #2 starters rehab.
i also don’t understand how wang is supposed to get outs at the mlb level when he’s working on staying on top of the rubber longer and timing his taps.
so how’s that go. check runners on first and third, remember to stay on rubber longer, ok that’s good, now tap twice… oh crap the hitter stepped out. let’s try that again. check runners, stay over rubber ,tap twice, crap the runner on first is stealing… balk!!!!
The need he filled was, he was an arm that was ready to go, even at diminished capabilities. He had shown some progress and was mowin’ ‘em down down on the farm.
I remember reading that Melancon and Robertson weren’t immediately available because they’d just pitched and they needed someone who could pitch that night if AJ was off – which, of course, he was (off) and they did, in fact, use Wang.
You paint a very funny word picture, there, though.
Sigh. Poor CMW. He’ll get there, though. Keep the faith. It’s just going to be slower than hoped and, heck, maybe he can split a fingernail or something and they’ll send him back down.
“At what point does one make the calculation that – no matter the reason – that Wang isn’t going to regain his magic, and that it’s time to make a change?”
joe in long island-
what could the yankees get for wang right now?
seriously.
i think they’d have trouble getting a decent 5th starter for him.
that’s a real shame considering he was a high #2 starter only a year ago.
the reason i’m making a federal case about wang now is so there isn’t a slow erosion where everyone gets used to him being bad and forget how good he was.
he may, as you say, not come back to the pitcher neil allen created. i think right now he’s closer to the pitcher he was before he was taught the sinker minus a few mph. i think eiland is more comfortable teaching the traditional wang who didn’t have the nasty sinker.
wang either gets it done or he doesn’t.
good pitchers like halladay,sabathia,santanna & many others go out & perform.
wang needs to remember how to pitch again.
the yankees have unlimited resources to fix wang.
they need to get it done at all cost.
bring in a special coach whoever it is.
i just have a hard time believing that it is this hard to fix a pitcher who is 29 yrs old & has been pitching for years.maybe i am missing something.
i just know that tiger woods,michael jordan,santanna,sabathia,arod,race car drivers,window washers,pilots,etc… just forget how to perform well.
the true good or great ones go out & perform with dedication,practice,advice,etc…
What happened to the other thread?
oh no. what happened pete?
Hughsie at 91 pitches
Someone pressed the delete button
Hughes shuts down everything
I really hope Hughes pitches well today, he’s got to go at least 7 scoreless or get rid of him!
“oh no. what happened pete?”
It’s skipping through time and ended up back in 1977. Reggie is out in RF.
what does this button do?
ohhh. oops.
It’s 10 – 0 he doesn’t need to pad his stats here GI Joe
Benson is out of control.
Sorry guys, I tried to post this and it nearly brought the blog down.
So sorry, my intentions were good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEMVwZRJ-UQ
5-5 Alex!
A-Rod is 5-5!
Berroa pinch runs for A-Rod, evoking memories of when he pinch ran for Gehrig in the late inning blowouts of that magical 1927 season.
sorry about the tech issues. the game post is back. i’m still recovering from my week off.
Arod’s average up 70 points today
yankees phillies last game – lost by the manager
in game tactics as bad as torre
he plays for 1 run ti tie — ok
then play for 1 run to win
jeter damon – even with texiera you bunt them over esp with the shift on – you use two out to score one run
this is the 3rd time this season he has failed to grasp this