Indians make a move
-
-
- May
- 29
-
The Indians today recalled LHP Rafael Perez from Triple-A Columbus and DFA’d OF David Dellucci.
Perez has spent the last three weeks in Columbus where he went 1-0 with two saves in seven games and did not allow a run in 9.0 innings pitched. He had a 15.19 ERA in 13 games with Cleveland to start the season.
Perez has pitched well against the the Yankees in the past (2.61 ERA, .194 batting average against), which probably explains why he is back.
No word yet on the Yankees move. But if they kept Kevin Cash around as a backup and sent Francisco Cervelli back to play everyday, that would seem to make sense.
This entry was posted
on Friday, May 29th, 2009 at 12:57 pm by Peter Abraham.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
I hope we get delucci if he clears waivers. platoon with swisher would be nice.
“But if they kept Kevin Cash around as a backup and sent Francisco Cervelli back to play everyday, that would seem to make sense.”
Well, except for Kevin Cash’s well-documented and eminently proven inability to do certain things on the diamond, such as, for instance… play baseball.
primero!!!!
platoon matsui with nady, bg can give melky or damon the occasional day off. Delucci can be a professional hitter and with a lineup surrounding him. his defense isnt half bad either.
that was excellent WOmbat Pete!!!!
“No word yet on the Yankees move. But if they kept Kevin Cash around as a backup and sent Francisco Cervelli back to play everyday, that would seem to make sense. ”
En que mundo ?
Dellucci isn’t worth the roster spot.
Dellucci was with the Yankees in 2003… Are there throw away players out there that have never played for the Yankees?
does anyone have an MLB TV account they’d be willing to share?
GI Joe vs Fatcessa today
Cisco >>> Cash
Cisco hitting >>> Molina’s
Delluci platoon player, not worth a spot. We have John Rodriguez and Todd Linden can do just as good.
Mike Diahrea of the mouth Fatcessa
If the Yankees don’t have 5 solid SP they will trade for one… since when does he think we want to continue getting rentals ?
Berroa is gone they will keep 3 catchers
Dellucci asked to be released so he didn’t have to face Joba on Monday
Arroyo here it comes!!
It would make much more sense to DH Posada, play Cervelli and strengthen the bench by using Matsui and Swisher there once Melky is healthy again. Then the Yankees have 2 viable options for pinch-hit scenarios late in games. Send Berroa down.
We know where Francessa is going with this…
Joba to the pen, if a starter gets injured… then go out and get Arroyo!!!
You can’t expect 5 SP to pitch perfect but we can expect the BP to ?
Marte? Marte? Marte?
lol Francessa is right though, our pen is brutal
Joba isin’t the answer though. Go out and get an arm or two via trade.
“Yankees with a 1 run lead in the 7th inning are in big, big, big trouble”.
FACT.
“Arroyo here it comes!!”
Who leads the league in surrendered HRs
I’m just sitting here listening and laughing.
Jobber
Yuse
Wang
It’s like some weird non-existent love triangle.
“Joba isin’t the answer though. Go out and get an arm or two via trade.”
Really who do you suggest ?
player A, player B or player C ?
“Marte? Marte? Marte?”
Funny how he’s worthless now. He use to be a lockdown SU/CL what gives ?
“Funny how he’s worthless now. He use to be a lockdown SU/CL what gives ?”
Not worthless, just far from game-ready.
I posed a question to Harry Pavlidis (tremendous Pitch F/X mind) and he answered it:
—————-
Me: Chien-Ming Wang’s release points on 5/27/09 @ Texas are, by far, the most drastically different release points that Pitch F/X has captured from him. In 2008, he was throwing from about a 3/4 slot. In 2009, up higher and closer toward the center of the rubber, and in his very last appearance, the data is either suggesting that he was nearly throwing overhand or he was on the rubber closer towards the 1B side. How reliable is the Pitch F/X data from stadium to stadium in that respect. And can a worm-killer go back to killing worms while throwing from such a different arm slot?
Sky Kalkman: We had that whole thing about Texas being weird with velocity and some pitcher whining about the shape of the mound. Has that stadium been weird in your work, Harry?
Harry Pavlidis: The Wang question is a good one. Yankee stadium was off about a foot in release/spin movement for most of 2008. Comparisons of Wang’s release points are certainly impacted by that. I’m quite skeptical of most of the analysis done on that topic, although there is some truth to it.
Harry Pavlidis: I’ve noticed Texas is a little wierd, yes. I haven’t done much with lately, though. The Astros park had a lot of noise – the spin movement clusters were never tight, but that got resolved recently, as best I can tell.
Harry Pavlidis: Parks I’ve found have velocity deltas from what appears normal include San Diego (hot) Shea (cold), I think Texas ran fast last year, too.
—————-
Just to reiterate: “Yankee stadium was off about a foot in release/spin movement for most of 2008. Comparisons of Wang’s release points are certainly impacted by that.”
“Not worthless, just far from game-ready.”
If he’s not a SU man he was worthless in that deal.
Disagree with Cash over Cervelli. Cervelli has a better arm, plays better defense, and hits better.
Let Cervelli get experience at the major league level. More experience will not help Cash. It’s not like Posada will be playing every game coming off a leg injury.
Another advantage is Cervelli will be available to pinch run for Posada in the late innings in a close game.
“If he’s not a SU man he was worthless in that deal.”
He is a set-up man. He’s just not a healthy one.
“Disagree with Cash over Cervelli. Cervelli has a better arm, plays better defense, and hits better.
Let Cervelli get experience at the major league level. More experience will not help Cash. It’s not like Posada will be playing every game coming off a leg injury.
Another advantage is Cervelli will be available to pinch run for Posada in the late innings in a close game.”
Agreed. I’d also like to see Po take Cervelli under his wing, like Girardi did for him in the 90s
“He is a set-up man. He’s just not a healthy one.”
Not a good one. And if he were good the Joba talk to the BP would be ended right there.
Huston Street
Leo Nunez
Tony Pena
Brad Ziegler
Just some of the names that might be available when these teams fall out of the race.
“It would make much more sense to DH Posada, play Cervelli and strengthen the bench by using Matsui and Swisher there once Melky is healthy again. Then the Yankees have 2 viable options for pinch-hit scenarios late in games. Send Berroa down.”
I’d rather take Matsui’s offense for 4 AB’s than have his bat on the bench in a PH role. By playing Posada over Matsui as a DH, then you are substituting Matsui’s bat for Cervelli’s. No thanks. Especially not in the AL.
We need to find a taker for Matsui so that Georgy can accept being the DH.
Today could be the first time since June 22, 2008 that Alex, Hideki and Jorge could be in the line-up together.
There are no solid pitchers available especially not this early in the season. Perhaps later on we can trade for a power arm on a bad team(Valverde, Morrow etc.)
*Huston Street*
*Leo Nunez*
Tony Pena
*Brad Ziegler*
They interest me.
Sending Cervelli makes no sense.
The best play would be to try and acquire Street off the free-falling Rockies. He’d be a solid, if not tremendous addition to a rickety bullpen.
If they send down Cervelli to activate Jorge, Mike F. just wasted a whole lot breathe.
“By playing Posada over Matsui as a DH, then you are substituting Matsui’s bat for Cervelli’s. No thanks. Especially not in the AL.”
Matsui has his peaks and valleys, you deal him if something becomes available, in not doing that move you also substitute the chances or Georgy becoming a longterm player, putting Cisco as the catcher shores up the defense and adds a little pop to the offense, Matsui in not equal to Georgy and we really have to think organization longterm over the loyalty aspect.
vb03, I like the Nunez kid.
More diahrea of the mouth from Fatcessa, keep chirping fatboy !
Molina will probably be back in about 2-3 weeks. They should keep Cervelli up here to back up Posada until he comes back. Then they can decide what they want to do. 2 weeks is not going to hurt his development, he will obviously learn from playing with Posada. Keeping the lesser player would not make any sense.
“Not a good one. And if he were good the Joba talk to the BP would be ended right there.”
In what world was he not good? In 07 and 08 his WHIP was under 1.2 and his ERA was 3. His BAA was around .215. Plus he’s a lefty, which we are in need of in our pen. The Joba to the BP talk would only cease if he was lights out, as Joba was in the set up roll.
Chad Qualls ftw
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....yerId=6034
The bullpen has not been that bad in May. April was brutal. But Wang and his short outings had a lot to do with that. Veras needs to be sent down though.
They want Cervelli to play every day. Being a backup and only playing twice a week at most is going to hurt his development, not progress it.
1 run lead in the 7th inning = Extend the starter at all costs.
Mike hitting the Joba story hard, he is foaming at the mouth. “Joba is horrible starter, he sucks” “He needs to go in the bullpen”, but one thing he is right about Joba is being babied
“We need to find a taker for Matsui so that Georgy can accept being the DH.”
The two don’t go hand in hand. Let’s exclude for a moment the fact that Matsui is pretty much untradeable. Even then, that only clears room for Posada to be the DH. No way he’d “accept” it as his full time role though. He’s made that pretty clear.
“The bullpen has not been that bad in May”
You’re right, bc our starters have been going deeper. Its the bridge to Mo in the close games that makes me want to hide under the bed.
So suddenly a 23 yo kid with 15 MLB game experience and has a career MiLB avg below .250 is suddenly our starting catcher? He needs reps and he’s not going to get it up here. Plug him into AAA and evaluate him at the end of the season. If he held his own, bring him up next year as the backup and Jorge’s heir apparent. But, he would certainly have to impress big time for that to be a possibility
Diet Coke has been right about Cervelli and Georgie as the DH though.
Fran likes Cervelli
Why does that fat pile of crap keep comparing him to Papelbum
vin
I’d rather take Matsui’s offense for 4 AB’s than have his bat on the bench in a PH role. By playing Posada over Matsui as a DH, then you are substituting Matsui’s bat for Cervelli’s. No thanks. Especially not in the AL.
__
The fallacy in your logic that you are wrongly assuming that Posada can remain healthy by playing catcher more than even three times a week when he has already sustained two leg muscle pulls in less than two months. And that doesn’t even take his recently operated shoulder into account.
How long until Molina is ready?
I think they keep Cash until Molina is ready because they are not ready to put him on wavers.
Now maybe they keep 3, but with Melky gone for 4-5 more days, I think they need and outfielder more than 3 catchers.
I also agree to send Veras away, far far away…
“Matsui has his peaks and valleys, you deal him if something becomes available, in not doing that move you also substitute the chances or Georgy becoming a longterm player, putting Cisco as the catcher shores up the defense and adds a little pop to the offense, Matsui in not equal to Georgy and we really have to think organization longterm over the loyalty aspect.”
First of all, who would really be a “taker” for Matsui? A $13million DH who can only play 4-5 days a week. Abreu got only (1 year) $5 million from the Angels – no one would have interest in Matsui, other than a team like the Yankees. Not to mention the fact that he has a no-trade clause.
Matsui still has value to the team, if used properly. Once Nady returns, it won’t be as harmful to the lineup to rest Matsui. Hideki is a hell of a hitter, when he’s going right – always has been streaky. To say Cervelli and Posada helps the team more than Matsui and Posada is asinine.
I bet they are getting rid of Angel. They’ll keep 3 catchers for a while.
The bullpen may not be bad ERA-wise, but look at the individual innings.
The relievers have performed Houdini acts to get out of jams. Prime example is Tomko against the Twins. Or Coke in the 9th inning that one day. It’s not like they have had clean 1-2-3 innings. They’ve held on for dear life every game. You can’t succeed like that all season.
Joba will be in the bullpen come august..so the debate does not even matter.
” *In what world was he not good?* In 07 and 08 his WHIP was under 1.2 and his ERA was 3. His BAA was around .215. Plus he’s a lefty, which we are in need of in our pen. The Joba to the BP talk would only cease if he was lights out, as Joba was in the set up roll.”
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.....id=4286403
Brandon.
Cause they are both intense? Beyond that they couldn’t be more different.
Paplebum is only a reliever cause he couldn’t handle the load of being a starter. He doesn’t get that.
“Joba will be in the bullpen come august..so the debate does not even matter.”
I bet it’ll be Melancon
And if not him if for the love of god he can stay healthy Christian Garcia.
Benny Blanco
Joba will be in the bullpen come august..so the debate does not even matter.
__
As long as you are making predictions, can you tell me what his velocity will be?
Is there a reason this needs to be talked about every freaking day….so old….
jennifer
Papwhatever doesn’t have four plus pitches.
“http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4286403″
Notice I did not give you any of his stats from this season? Bc he had been pitching hurt. And stop the presses, you may not believe this, but good pitchers give up home runs. I could link you to Mo giving up a HR, or Joba or Doc Holliday and so on and so forth. He is widely considered to be a very good relief pitcher. Just because he is injured does not make his signing “worthless”, that is incredibly short-sighted.
Joba’s FIP is 4.91
“Huston Street”
Make it happen Cash.
“The fallacy in your logic that you are wrongly assuming that Posada can remain healthy by playing catcher more than even three times a week when he has already sustained two leg muscle pulls in less than two months. And that doesn’t even take his recently operated shoulder into account.”
I fully understand that Posada can’t play every day, but I took your original statement to mean that Posada should be primarily the DH with Cervelli catching and Matsui on the bench. That doesn’t make sense to me. It’s also very important to note that Posada sustained the tear (that finally put him on the DL) while running the bases, in a game in which he was the DH. I believe it was Randy, here (a former catcher), who mentioned that Posada would have been better off catching that game so that his muscles could have stayed warm throughout the game.
Of course the shoulder surgery needs to be taken into account, and I think Joe was doing a resting Posada.
Coach6423
I can give Mike a list of things to discuss.
1. the turn around the Yankees made.
2. Jorge coming back.
3. Yankees team chemistry.
4. Who we could bring up from the farm to fill pen need.
5. Who we can trade for to fill pen need.
6. Why Bronson sucks and shouldn’t even be considered.
7. His love affair with the soxs
8. The circus of a field the Mets have.
9. Removing the first two rows at Citi field to prevent fans from interferring.
There you go that is a good 2 hours of programing.
oops…
and I think Joe was doing a *good job of* resting Posada.
“More diahrea of the mouth from Fatcessa, keep chirping fatboy”
lol
yup. Keep chirping, cuz no one’s listening. I finally boycotted his arrogant ***
“Yuse”
i know Kay has trouble pronouncing *H*ughes’ last name. Francessa too !
“8. The circus of a field the Mets have.”
I like how someone here yesterday called it an “obstacle course.” lol
Damaso Soca Malo Marte bueno para nada has been worthless this season. Can he turn it around sure, will I bet he does ? absolutely not.
“No way he’d [Posada] ‘accept’ it as his full time role though. He’s made that pretty clear.”
Maybe Cashman should remind him that his contract says “baseball player”, not “catcher”…
Mike is trying to pressure the yankees
I think the main thing that bothers me about the Joba “debate” is people want the Yankees to build their own pitching and yet no patience for development. Joba is 23 years old! Learning to economize is part of a player’s development. Not everyone is Lincecum and Sabathia and can dominate from the start of his career. It’s so frustrating.
It’s also frustrating that Francesa gets paid for what he does. He’s clueless. He just said he can’t even count how many starters are better than Jobber this season, probably like 25. Firstly, he sounds like your annoying cousin who comes up with stuff based on no research. And secondly if your current back of the rotation starter(with ace potential) is ranked as the 25th starter in the majors at the age of 23, how is that bad?
As for Cervelli, I think him playing in the minors full time makes sense. It’s better for him to play every day and he’s very young. Despite his average, I don’t think Cervelli, over the long haul, is a better hitter than Molina. Definitely better than Cash, but not Molina. His average is high right now, but I can’t see that sustaining with the lack of power and walks he’s shown so far. Eventually, people will figure out how to get him out. Will he be better than Molina someday? Maybe. But just glancing at his average isn’t enough.
“6. Why Bronson sucks and shouldn’t even be considered”
unfortunately, for Francessa. #6 would qualify as a conflict of interest
“Joba will be in the bullpen come august..so the debate does not even matter.”
Only if he’s the 6th best starter.
You are probably right in saying he will end this season in the bullpen. He will either reach his innings limit or get hurt before the end of September.
There was also talk that if Mo got hurt Joba would be the closer.
Please send down Veras or trade him away. PLEASE PLEASE
“I also agree to send Veras away, far far away…”
Finally, something we can all agree on.
Houston Street
Danny Baez
George Sherill
Brad Ziegler
Russ Springer
Chad Qualls
Tony Pena
Leo Nunez
Matt Lindstrom
Jose Valverde
Dave Aardasama
Kerry Wood
Rafael Betancourt
Matt Capps
Manny Corpas
Could be some options. Perhaps if Cincinatti or Atlanta fall out of the race, Francisco Cordero/Mike Gonzalez/Rafael Soriano may be available.
Richie: 66 MPH
All I’m saying is that when joba reaches his innings limit, the yankees have to do something. If the yankees make the playoffs, what game is he going to start? He’s not going to be sitting down whistling dixie. He’s going to be in the bullpen. Joba the reliever is better than every reliver in our pen, with the exception of the obvious, mo.
Joba is about as good a 23 year old starter as there is in MLB. He’s pitching to less than a 4era in the AL East. His disasterous start he gives up 3 runs in 4 innings??? Please, that’s not enough length, but he didn’t lose the game for your team. 31 other teams would pay very dearly to have such a terrible starter on their team.
We need to find a way to get Wang more work, we need him to replace Andy next year, assuming that Andy decides to retire.
“Damaso Soca Malo Marte bueno para nada has been worthless this season”
By your logic, so has Wang. Should we discount him as well?
vin
That was me
“I like how someone here yesterday called it an “obstacle course.” lol”
even more then Houston’s park ?
saucy May 29th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
“Yuse”
i know Kay has trouble pronouncing *H*ughes’ last name. Francessa too !
=====================================
Every time he says the word “use”, I keep on thinking he is talking about Phil.
“And secondly if your current back of the rotation starter(with ace potential) is ranked as the 25th starter in the majors at the age of 23, how is that bad?”
Suppose that would depend on where #2, #3 and #4 rank.
When Posada was playing 1B against the Mets last year, after the game he said “I’m a catcher, I don’t want to play any other position.”
This year, Girardi already took him out of some games late for defensive purposes (that Friday afternoon game vs. Cleveland) and stayed away from him in the Tampa series 2 straight games.
Girardi is trying to walk a fine line… not insulting him too badly, but trying to work around his defensive/health questions.
Posada’s number do not indicate he needed a rest…the brking hamstring did however. The guy was raking from day 1. I still can’t believe people ould rather have a kid behind the plate than Posada. One of the best catchers to ever play the game and the guy gets no respect on these boards. You people should be ashamed of yourselves.
He has as much service time as Jeter, has better offensive numbers, and has caught a perfect game. But no, Jeter is the face of the franchise and Jorge is the red headed step child
“By your logic, so has Wang. Should we discount him as well?”
I’ve been saying Wang needs to earn his job back. He hasn’t pitched well this season at all.
Posada is the leader of the clubhouse. Joe isin’t going to tick him off too badly. They already have a rocky relationship.
Why do I listen to Francesa?? If he told the facts and not just what he “thinks” I could handle it but he doesn’t have a clue about what he is saying. He keeps spouting how Joba was babied and taken out of the games last year in the 2nd and 3rd innings. He’s full of it…he started 12 games …7 of them he pitched in 6 or 7 innings. Only ONE game he pitched 2.1 innings. 4 games were 4 & 5 innings. Why doesn’t he check his facts before he spouts off? It only makes him look stupid…
For someone who thinks he knows it all …he knows very, very little.
Go Yankees 2009 !!!
another posada-cervelli connection?
cisco doesnt use batting gloves, and just like posada he grabs dirt right before his at bat
i agree that if the yanks arent going to hold 3 catchers he should be sent down so he can play everyday, but i will miss watching him play.
So how exactly does wang get his spot back? He needs opportunities.
West coaster here. Do any callers ever challenge Francessa about Joba? And if so, are they good debaters or does Francessa run all over them?
“I think the main thing that bothers me about the Joba “debate” is people want the Yankees to build their own pitching and yet no patience for development. Joba is 23 years old! ”
I came across this thought yesterday….
“If not Joba, then WHO?!”
Meaning, if developing starting pitchers is, indeed, a goal of a franchise, then why wouldn’t Joba be the perfect candidate? 4 good pitches, big frame, wants to start. He has the physical ability, mentality, and stature for it… what else is missing?! Right now, he is the perfect candidate.
Of course this requires the opposition to accept the fact that starting pitchers are inherently more valuable than 8th or :gasp: 9th inning pitchers. If they were, then Mo would be the highest paid pitcher in the game, case closed.
Most of the starting pitchers do not like pitching to Posada
“Could be some options. Perhaps if Cincinatti or Atlanta fall out of the race, Francisco Cordero/Mike Gonzalez/Rafael Soriano may be available”
will admit, haven’t been following the minor league system as closely, the past 2 months.
going into the season it seemed very possible to promote someone like a George Kontos etc, and try to catch lightening in a bottle. (for relief help, if needed) Given the RHP depth.
I wasn’t even agreeing with Francesa that he’s the 25th best starter. Just noting that Francesa has no idea what he’s talking about.
“I’ve been saying Wang needs to earn his job back. He hasn’t pitched well this season at all.”
Exactly right, but he’s not worthless, and neither is Marte.
Gossage is a Yankee scout ? I’ve never heard this. Leo from the Bronx the 2nd or 3rd worst caller in WFAN history, never makes sense and sounds like an idiot.
We’re 7 games ahead of Tampa in the loss and 3 in the loss ahead of Toronto.
We also have 3 games in hand over those guys (they have played 50, we have played 47).
“Joba is about as good a 23 year old starter as there is in MLB.”
Gallardo and Cueto may have something to say about who the best of the 23 year olds are. Which begs the following question: If the Yankees had eschewed ever using Joba in a relief role and kept him on a starter’s track in 2007 and 2008, would he be at or beyond where those two guys are right now?
Wow. The Cavs had it going last night. What an atmosphere. Really had a great time. Now its business. Let’s go get all 4
-nick swishers twitter
“Do any callers ever challenge Francessa about Joba? And if so, are they good debaters or does Francessa run all over them?”
Fran the Man from the Fan just talks over them. There’s is rarely a debate. The only time he will shut up is when he’s talking with a manager or a GM.
“Joba is about as good a 23 year old starter as there is in MLB.”
Lincecum agrees.
“Why do I listen to Francesa??”"
I asked myself that very question earlier this week. When I couldn’t come up with a good answer, I stopped listening to him.
Well until Joba goes 3/4 starts of 6/7 innings allowing 1/2 runs, 0-3 BB and 7-10 strikeouts no one is going to shut up about Joba to the bullpen to it is up to Joba to make them shut up.
Francesa’s callers rarely debate with him except for the occasional “idiot” who thinks David Wright is good.
As long as he’s got that cut off button, no caller will ever be able to challenge him. You’d have to be in the studio with him to even have a shot at it.
The sad thing about Francesa is he’s such a big mouth and he’s going to tell this one and that one ..but …when Girardi or Cashman come on the show he suddenly forgets about all those “tough” questions he was going to ask them …
How does this man get 5 hours of air time?? I can only take him in doses …a half hour here and another there. Why is it that I always get the half hour when it’s Joba time?? I guess maybe because it’s his pet subject to which he usually devotes 4 of the 5 hours ..lol.
Go Yankees 2009 !!!
Nice work then, Jennifer.
“West coaster here. Do any callers ever challenge Francessa about Joba? And if so, are they good debaters or does Francessa run all over them?”
There’s a good youtube video of him squaring off against Alex in Bedminster (I believe). The caller makes a legit point, and this talk show hack just starts screaming and almost has a coronary. I couldn’t even watch the whole video.
Guys, get this: Mike Francessa just said with a straight face that he lets Joba starter people have their fair say.
I almost died laughing.
Yeah, the callers don’t debate as much as re-hash what he’s been saying. Those who challenge rarely get a word in.
The Ex-Yankee players, radio voices (Kay, Franny), YES guys etc. want Joba in the pen because it makes us a better team this year, period.
Operative word is THIS YEAR. But if you don’t let him get his 150 innings this year, then the cycle is back at one next year.
Whatever gives the team the best chance to win now, that’s what the outsiders want.
Could be some options. Perhaps if Cincinatti or Atlanta fall out of the race, Francisco Cordero/Mike Gonzalez/Rafael Soriano may be available”
The Reds GM would probably be willing to include one of his kidneys in a deal that sends Cordero and his contract somewhere else.
Soriano is the most compelling of the group, but he’s made of glass.
YankeeFan4Eva
May 29th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Most of the starting pitchers do not like pitching to Posada
______ _______ ______
The only starter that didn’t like throwing to Posada is AJ, who seems to be particular anyway…he doesn’t like Cervelli either (another reason to keep Cash).
Posada has caught Andy for most of his career, Sabathis didn’t have a problem, and I’m sure Wang and Hughes couldn’t care less. Where does this stuff come from?
“Fran the Man from the Fan just talks over them”
sounds like a nickname Francessa coined himself
” You’d have to be in the studio with him to even have a shot at it”
Enter Max Kellerman.
“He has the physical ability, mentality, and stature for it… what else is missing?! Right now, he is the perfect candidate.”—————————————————————-
All very true. However, Joba became JOBA when he started blowing away guys in the 8th inning.
“Posada’s number do not indicate he needed a rest…the brking hamstring did however. The guy was raking from day 1. I still can’t believe people ould rather have a kid behind the plate than Posada. One of the best catchers to ever play the game and the guy gets no respect on these boards. You people should be ashamed of yourselves.
He has as much service time as Jeter, has better offensive numbers, and has caught a perfect game. But no, Jeter is the face of the franchise and Jorge is the red headed step child”
DB, this all may be true but he keeps getting hurt.
I think he he catchs 2 ou t of every 3 games and DHs once per week. More than that and he’ll be on the DL again. Posada can no longer catch 5 or 6 or even 4 of 5.
Next year Posada will catch even less and DH even more.
Francessa is so stupid. I don’t know, the Joba to the pen arguement makes no sense to me. I’ve been converted from a Joba to the pen guy and now I realize that that arguement has little actual merit.
Steve B if they would have kept Joba as a SP he’d be above all of those 23 yr. olds, he came up as a bulldog I mean averaging 99 mph into the 7th, they put him in the pen to save the season and because he was in an innings cap. The same debate will be made w/ Andrew Brackman, Brett Marshall who was gasing it at 97 mph in his last start into the late innings and Dellin Betances.
Some callers do try and take Francesa to task.
However, their arguments are usually very weak and they make Francessa look good.
Nobody has made an intelligent argument to Francessa, atleast from what I heard. Either the callers agree with him and kiss up to him, or they make a fool of themselves and make Joba sound like he is Santana right now.
I think the perfect analogy is Clayton Kershaw. Sure, he’s 3 years younger than Joba, but in terms of experience as a starter in the majors, they’re not far off. Also, Kershaw is arguably the best young pitcher in the game in terms of his stuff. Yet, he has struggled so far this year, but you see the flashes of brilliance. The Dodgers have struggled somewhat with a bridge to Broxton, yet I don’t hear anyone calling for Kershaw’s move to the pen. There’s no replacement for a young starter with the potential to be absolutely dominant and Joba’s the same story.
BJK
People who agree with him can speak. If you call up and disagree he screams over you. As someone pointed out there is a video up on youtube. He is yelling at the guy to make his point, but than won’t shut up. He started yelling at one of the guys who work there to get HIM OFF MY PHONE!
“All I’m saying is that when joba reaches his innings limit, the yankees have to do something. If the yankees make the playoffs, what game is he going to start? He’s not going to be sitting down whistling dixie. He’s going to be in the bullpen. Joba the reliever is better than every reliver in our pen, with the exception of the obvious, mo.”
Honestly, I think Joba is a better reliever than Mo. Mo’s cutter is losing velocity and effectiveness this year. Sure, he still locates beautifully. But Joba has a 98mph fb, a sick, unhittable slider, and a solid curve out of the pen. He’s just better.
Fran the Man just sounded funny to me. In a “Boy Named Sue” sort of way.
YankeeFan4Eva
May 29th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Most of the starting pitchers do not like pitching to Posada
_
“The only starter that didn’t like throwing to Posada is AJ, who seems to be particular anyway…he doesn’t like Cervelli either (another reason to keep Cash).
Posada has caught Andy for most of his career, Sabathis didn’t have a problem, and I’m sure Wang and Hughes couldn’t care less. Where does this stuff come from?”
Inside scoop says that Sabathia does not like throwing to Posada either? You watch how many times Sabathia shakes off Posada and calls him out to the mound.
“Whatever gives the team the best chance to win now, that’s what the outsiders want.”
We still have a great chance of winning with Joba in the rotation. There are only two situations that I’d be okay with Joba being in the pen:
1)Mo out for the season and Joba replaces him as the closer
2)Joba in the pen for the playoffs
Other than that, he should start.
Benny Blanco-So. You could stick John Smoltz in at closer and he could do that. That didn’t stop people from making him a strter as soon as he got healthy.
ps: My post is in NO WAY an endorsement of Joba to the bullpen. I have a brain.
““Joba is about as good a 23 year old starter as there is in MLB.”
Lincecum agrees.”
Ok, if he’s not the absolute #1, he’s in the discussion. He’s a good starter, he will get even better. Johan wasn’t Johan overnight, it took him a few years to develop as well. You can’t waste his stuff as a middle reliever unless he proves he can’t stay healthy as a starter.
IDK what Atlanta would want for Soriano, I’ve always wanted that arm in the Yankees BP. He’d neutralize the big 3 in Boston that’s for sure.
“Steve B if they would have kept Joba as a SP he’d be above all of those 23 yr. olds”
If they would have kept him a starter, we wouldnt have made the ‘07 playoffs.
To Francessa’s credit, I listened to him for 15 minutes yesterdaay and he fielded a call who was an S-Jobber. The conversation was intelligent until Francessa said that the Yankee championships didn’t have a dominant starter who won 20 games on them. I guess Cone, Pettitte, and Clemens don’t count..
No, I was listening to the show yesterday and a caller who wanted joba as a starter made somne great points and mike let him say his peace. When you call mike you have back up your arguments with strong points.
Again, mike is not saying the joba is not going to be a great starter.
Laura, I agree. I personally think Joba is better than Hughes at the moment (although I think Hughes has inceredible potential) and that it makes more sense to start Joba then Hughes.
Francessa keeps saying you can’t use the other guys because “they’re starters”. Since when was Joba not a starter? When will people realize he was only in the pen to check out how he would do at the ML level? It was a test. He passed. Now it’s time for his real job.
“I think Joba is a better reliever than Mo”
Hmmm?
“98mph fb”
When!?? Did I miss something!?? Oh yeah, 2007…
“a sick, unhittable slider”
That is thrown for balls…
“and a solid curve out of the pen”
Out of the pen, he’d probably drop a pitch or two. Would probably just be fastball and slider… Goodbye curve!
DB
Yeah, and the 98 Yankees only had 2 of the top 5 Cy Young vote finishes. He really throws research to the wind. He just says stuff.
Benny Blanco-Like Alex from Bedminster?
The poor guy said nothing wrong.
I think Mike watched his own youtube video and changed his mind.
“Enter Max Kellerman”
and you saw where that went. Francessa didn’t have the guts, to have Kellerman as a co-host. Despite the fact, the masses wanted this very much.
he is King Francessa. Or so he thinks
Hi:
Did you folks read the piece by our Lohud Peter A. that Cervelli started out as a second baseman, shortstop and pitcher!
Here’s our utility guy! And he can replace Swish-A-Licious (apologies to John Sterling) as our moppiest mop up guy!
Inge II!!
Regards
“IDK what Atlanta would want for Soriano, I’ve always wanted that arm in the Yankees BP”
A young outfielder, I’d imagine.
“All very true. However, Joba became JOBA when he started blowing away guys in the 8th inning.”
What does that really mean? Are you saying you’d rather have a rockstar in the BP, or an equally effective ace in the rotation? Give me the guy who throws 3-4 times as many innings over the course of a season.
“Francessa keeps saying you can’t use the other guys because “they’re starters”. Since when was Joba not a starter? When will people realize he was only in the pen to check out how he would do at the ML level? It was a test. He passed. Now it’s time for his real job.”
Exactly. Also lost in this argument is what Joba wants. He has told the Yankees in no uncertain terms that he wants to start. He will, of course, do what is best for the team, but his wish is to start.
“You can’t waste his stuff as a middle reliever unless he proves he can’t stay healthy as a starter.”
How is his stuff wasted in the later innings? How does providing a stable bridge to the closer (something we’ve not had in YEARS, except in 07 when Joba did it) and then one day becoming the closer constitute a waste? I totally get and respect the fact that he has the potential to be a starting pitcher, but he was never as dominant at any time in his life as he was in the set up role. I say take that and groom him to be the heir apparent to Mo instead of throwing an absurd amount of money at the best reliever on the market at the time of Mo’s retirement and hope that he is reliable.
And if they move Joba to the pen, and he’s not lights-out or at least highly effective, or worse, then what??????
Once they made the decision to make him a starter to start the season, I believe, barring something of a devastating nature, that’s where he’s staying this season.
So, answer: what if they move him to the pen and he’s not what everyone expects??? Which is not entirely out of the question.
And really, does this debate have to go on day in and day out? It appears that no one’s opinion is really being changed, for one. And there’s been no new arguments, on either side, really.
B-O-R-I-N-G!
Send swisher to Atlanta. I remember they wanted Swisher when the Yankees were trying to sell Nady instead.
“Johan wasn’t Johan overnight, it took him a few years to develop as well.”
Fatcessa pushes the point that Joba will never be Johan and that the Yankees don’t have any patience to wait for him to develope..which is hilarious b/c they are. They are the ones telling NYC and everyone he is a SP, he will stay there.If not for talk radio this isn’t even a theme.
Philly will never deal McDonald especially for Penny, that has to be dumber than running into a stop sign.
Why is there somekind of myth that Joe and Jorge have a rocky relationship? Joe mentored Jorge – I think Jorge was like a little brother to Joe. Does Jorge like all of Joe’s decisions with regards to the catching situation? No, but that’s because he’s a fiery competitor – it has nothing to do with their personal relationship
“And he can replace Swish-A-Licious (apologies to John Sterling) as our moppiest mop up guy!”
John Sterling should apologize to US for that one
“Laura, I agree. I personally think Joba is better than Hughes at the moment”
I believe that in hughes next three starts, his numbers could be equal to or better than joba’s first nine starts.
People always say Mo is the MVP of the championship years, and he was. Consider this, though: What if Pedro was on that team? Is Mo still MVP? Do we lose the 01′ WS? Answers: No and probably not.
Great starters are more valuable then great relievers. If you’re saying Joba has the potential to be a great starter, and he does, then why make him reliever?
Bigger idiot?
A guy who’s hosting a radio show and making millions of dollars off of it or people who listen to him everyday complain about him and then post word for word what he says on the show
You be the judge.
“If they would have kept him a starter, we wouldnt have made the ‘07 playoffs.”
If that would help avoid all this silly discussion, then I would gladly have taken that.
YankeeFan4Eva
May 29th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
YankeeFan4Eva
May 29th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Most of the starting pitchers do not like pitching to Posada
_
“The only starter that didn’t like throwing to Posada is AJ, who seems to be particular anyway…he doesn’t like Cervelli either (another reason to keep Cash).
Posada has caught Andy for most of his career, Sabathis didn’t have a problem, and I’m sure Wang and Hughes couldn’t care less. Where does this stuff come from?”
Inside scoop says that Sabathia does not like throwing to Posada either? You watch how many times Sabathia shakes off Posada and calls him out to the mound.
___- _____
Jorge caught ever single game of CC before going on the DL, you should check your stats before making statements about overblown observations after 2 games in the season.
DB, you have no proof that AJ doesn’t like throwing to Jorge. They did fine in ST and then had one bad game in Boston – they need to get used to each other, that’s all. Why do people just make things up?
some days 7 IP, 8 IP… ?
“If you’re saying Joba has the potential to be a great starter, and he does, then why make him reliever”
Because good starters are more common and easier to come by then reliable closers.
“Send swisher to Atlanta. I remember they wanted Swisher when the Yankees were trying to sell Nady instead.”
They may have wanted Swisher before. Not sure they’d want him now. Hell, we don’t even want him anymore.
vin,
Randy is merely speculating. It’s not really much to hang an argument on.
And AJ doesn’t like Cervelli? LOL Please..
Francesca is a freaking hypocrite. He will trash a player on air, but when he gets that player for an interview, he will kiss his behind. Pathetic.
“I remember they wanted Swisher when the Yankees were trying to sell Nady instead”
That desire probably waned, especially if they happened to watch him play.
Benny, maybe, but I doubt it.
Hughes and Joba can both be excellent starters.
Mike does have one good point this bullpen sucks!!! If this bullpen does not change we wont get anywhere!!
Laura -
He was put in the pen because he had the fastball at 98 to 100 mph and they needed an 8th inning guy. But it was always, always just for those couple of months. It was not ever supposed to be permanent.
And last season they started him in the pen because they had Hughes and Kennedy in the rotation and they also wanted to keep Joba’s innings down. He was always going to be in the rotation at some point last season. Nothing worked out last season, really.
And in the long run, they did Joba a disservice by ever bringing him up as a relief pitcher, because now we have this stupid argument that that’s where he belongs.
“What if Pedro was on that team? Is Mo still MVP? Do we lose the 01’ WS? Answers: No and probably not. ”
Good point… all you need to do is look at who won the ‘01 WS. Hmm… why did they win? Oh yeah Schilling and Johnson. Without one of those two guys, they don’t even sniff the WS.
Jon Ringland-So you’re telling me given the choice of K-Rod and Halladay, you’d take KRod?
Absolutely not.
And no they aren’t. Not really.
Guy just called in and made a great argument about Joba as a starter and Francesa was nice to him, but his argument was non-existent. The guy basically said we have to assume Hughes and Wang would be fine the rest of the way out and that Burnett, CC, and Pettitte will all stay healthy. He then asked if Mike was okay with someone like Tomko in the rotation if that happened. Mike basically ignored the Tomko proposal completely.
Just making a point
May 29th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Benny, maybe, but I doubt it.
Hughes and Joba can both be excellent starters
Why isn’t Kazmir in the bullpen? He only pitches 5 innings lol
May 29th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
YankeeFan4Eva
May 29th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
YankeeFan4Eva
May 29th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Most of the starting pitchers do not like pitching to Posada
_
“The only starter that didn’t like throwing to Posada is AJ, who seems to be particular anyway…he doesn’t like Cervelli either (another reason to keep Cash).
Posada has caught Andy for most of his career, Sabathis didn’t have a problem, and I’m sure Wang and Hughes couldn’t care less. Where does this stuff come from?”
Inside scoop says that Sabathia does not like throwing to Posada either? You watch how many times Sabathia shakes off Posada and calls him out to the mound.
_- _
“Jorge caught ever single game of CC before going on the DL, you should check your stats before making statements about overblown observations after 2 games in the season.”
DB – Forget about the stats have you watched the games???? Go ask Dave Eiland if its true? Like I said inside scoop. By the way CC has no say.
“Oh yeah Schilling and Johnson. Without one of those two guys, they don’t even sniff the WS.”
Right, but remember Byung-Yun Kim? They would have won in FIVE GAMES if they had a decent closer.
Is there anything more annoying than mispronouncing Joba as JOE-BUH?
Laura -
My last post was in response to whoever’s post you quoted.
Mark-Cant Touch This (Milk man Rules): You’re right but Joba is not the answer. They need to look at Melancon and outside the organization.
Laura and vin, to use Adam Schein’s term (who ironically is a Joba to the pen guy) we’re sharing a brain on this one.
Heres a good one…right now
Joba versus lincecum??
Betsey, very true…which just furthers my point. The whole thing about Jorgie calling a bad game and being a bad catcher is just plain ludicrous. The guy is the heart and soul of the Yanks and he gets treated like the plague on this blog. I just don’t get it.
I completely agree with ‘Just making a point’. I wish we had some modern approximation of Stanton and Nelson, those guys were amazing relievers. But I just don’t think that is as important as having good starters. I think we keep Joba in the rotation, and trade for a quality bullpen arm.
A SU man has no role on a bad team ?
“Randy is merely speculating. It’s not really much to hang an argument on.”
Yeah, what does Randy know? He only has significant catching experience and has been around the game for many years. I’m not saying Posada can catch 6 days a week, but to make the claim that the team would be better off with Posada as the DH is lunacy.
Betsy – Do you read the papers? It is pretty common knowledge that Jorge and Girardi never had a great relationship. The beat writers have been saying it for over a year.
“Francesca is a freaking hypocrite. He will trash a player on air, but when he gets that player for an interview, he will kiss his behind. Pathetic.”
It’s totally true. He’ll sit there bashing Girardi or Manuel but when they come on the show, he barely makes a peep.
“Jon Ringland-So you’re telling me given the choice of K-Rod and Halladay, you’d take KRod?
Absolutely not.
And no they aren’t. Not really.”
On this team? Without Mo? I take K-Rod. It depends on your needs. This team has thrown fort knox at two ACE pitchers with another ace (Wanger) calibur pitcher already on the roster. We’ll have them for years. So if we have no Mo, another starter is not what we need. We need a reliable closer and a reliable way to get to that closer. We won the WS in 96 because Mo/Wetteland made ball games 6 innings in length.
Byung Hyun Kim was a great closer. Just because we dominated him doesn’t diminish his value. He’s the guy you wanted there. The margin of error for a reliever is much thinner because he only gets an inning or two to do his job. Same thing happened with Lidge for the Astros in ‘05. He was as good as anyone and he just kind of lost it in the playoffs.
Jon Ringland-So? They won.
wake me up when Pete posts the gamethread
Heres a good one…right now
Joba versus lincecum??
____________
Right now: Lincecum
DFA Berroa and keep 3 catchers for a week….then they’re sure Posada is 100%, send down Cervelli to play every day and bring up another hitter, whether it be Miranda, J-Rod, whomever.
Kazmir should be in the bullpen. He isin’t helping his team when he only pitches 5 innings and you have to expose a terrible bullpen for 4 innings.
“Right, but remember Byung-Yun Kim? They would have won in FIVE GAMES if they had a decent closer.”
Ouch, how true…
Joba will not be in the bullpen in 2009
Hughes SHOULDN’T be in the bullpen in 2009
Melancon will be a lock-down reliever THIS year
Huston Street would be nice on this team…
Caller right now is OWNING Francesa.
How is Francesa a “hypocrite”?
He hasn’t trashed anybody. He is simply giving his opinion about Joba. It may be flawed, but he never said Joba wasn’t good.
Some people just complain for the sake of complaining
Does Mike have any intelligent callers?
The 96 WS win had nothing to do with starting pitching. Yeah, ask David Cone and Andy Pettitte about that.
Jon Ringland-You’d really take K-Rod? Sorry, but no way. Halladay will be good for years. Every single closer in the history of baseball except Mo lasts what? Five, seven years?
I know Halladay’s older, but let’s say for the sake of arguement they’re both 20. Then you have to take Halladay. An Ace is more valuable than a closer. Except Mo, and even then I’d take a dominant ace over Mo.
DB- Who is calling Jorgie a bad catcher??? please get your facts straight before you type something. All I said there are some starting pitchers who dont like to pitch to Posada. Thats all I said.
The only guy who gave uncensored interviews was Chris Russo
Remember when Cashman almost hung up on him after the Abreu trade?
“Right, but remember Byung-Yun Kim? They would have won in FIVE GAMES if they had a decent closer.”
Yeah, because Kim was the reason they were in the WS, right? Come on… if they had a decent closer they WOULD have won in 5. Not because of the closer, but because of the two great starting pitchers who put them in that position in the first place!
NJ Dave-Look up the Alex from Bedminster youtube video.
Who beat us in 2001
Kym or Randy Johnson/Curt Schilling ?
Who beat us in 2003
Marlins BP or Josh Beckett & Carl Pavano ?
Joba will not be in the bullpen in 2009
Hughes SHOULDN’T be in the bullpen in 2009
Melancon will be a lock-down reliever THIS year
Huston Street would be nice on this team…
_______________
Why are you so high on Huston Street he is over rated.
No aces?
Clemens, Wells, Pettitte, Cone, Key
is he drunk?
Not aces but they are legit 2 and 3 starters they are no Tomko
For the record, in the regular season 2001, Byung Hyun Kim had a 2.94 era and 110 K’s out of the pen. How could Arizona predict he’d melt against us? It’s not like they weren’t prepared.
Burnett will be fine once Molina comes back
“Josey” is the key
Who cares what Kim did? They didn’t lose, remember? Because of their starters.
In 2007
Zumaya or Justin Verlander/Kenny Rogers ?
It was infered, if you didn’t say that in an earlier post, I sincerely apoologize. There have been plenty of people on this blog bashing Posada as a catcher (anyone seen Trisha?)
My comment about Posada/CC still is relevant though
Joba has a 4.91 FIP.
He has allowed 73 baserunners in 49 innings. He has only pitched 6 innings in 1\2 of his starts (excluding the 0.1 inning start).
Can we stop pretending like this guy has been some dominant beast this season?
2006 for Detroit
“Who cares what Kim did? They didn’t lose, remember? Because of their starters.”
That’s the whole point
In 2007 the Yankees had Joba in the BP
The Indians made him a nonfactor
Same way the Cardinals got through the 2006 playoffs. Not that it made any sense that it happened this way, but their starting pitching was great.
“I say take that and groom him to be the heir apparent to Mo instead of throwing an absurd amount of money at the best reliever on the market at the time of Mo’s retirement and hope that he is reliable.”
If you move Joba to the pen, then next year you will need to throw a much larger absurd amount of money at a starting pitcher to replace Joba in the rotation.
Putting aside all the other excellent reasons why Joba should remain in the rotation, one of the keys to the Yanks getting their team payroll down and more flexible is to have Joba, Hughes and Wang in the rotation at the same time (next year).
Bryan-Clemes was an Ace. He did win a Cy Young for us if I’m not mistaken.
Mark, he’s not saying Street is the answer, he’s saying he’d be nice on this team.
And every report I hear on Melancon is that he’s a god (figuratively speaking). Why is he not here? Why is Tomko still here?
Isn’t David Dellucci the guy who lit up Joba for a three run homer last year?
I love how people over-value 8th inning guys. I check this blog every day, and I can’t remember the last time I saw someone mention Tom Gordon.
He was GREAT for NYY in ‘04 and ‘05. Trouble was, it was him and Mo and and no one else in the BP, not to mention a very weak rotation.
lest you forget:
http://www.baseball-reference......ing_simple
Bullpens are tremendously important, but not at the expense of the rotation, or even of a balanaced ‘pen.
Does Mike know how long it took Grienki to get to where he is? Grienki had worst numbers then Joba did in his early days, I’m talking 4.5 plus ERA. The guy knows nothing all he does is opens his mouth.
Orange J-We never said that, we said he’s 23 and is doing better than most first year starters and will only get better.
Damn Brandon, I was just going to mention 07. The angels always owned us in hitting though. They’d drive the ball to all fields on pitches a foot out of the strike zone.
Burnett pitched well two days ago.
Posada isn’t a good defensive catcher, and a lot of our better pitchers currently (AJ,Mussina,Johnson come readily to mind) and in the past don’t like throwing to him. He is a hell of a ballplayer, but I think he helps this team more by being the DH and letting a better defensive guy take over the reigns behind the dish.
I know this was beaten to death, but it is a legit argument now. The bullpen is weak, Wang is back and Phil is pitching well now – pretty good for a 5th starter. Joba had one good game (the 12 strike out game), but even then he gave up 4 runs in the first and still lost. When he was in the pen he was lights outs except the “bug” game. If Joba doesn’t go to the pen are we going to with 6 starters? No. Are we going to send Phil back down? Maybe. Do I think that Joba can be a starter? Yes, but right now he is needed in the pen.
vin
One of the best arguments I’ve ever seen. Remember Kay’s three headed monster Quangormo which eventually became the two headed Gormo. But, at any rate, games were basically over after 7. But we had such weak starting pitching that year with injuries to Mussina and ineffectiveness from other guys. You need to get to the late innings before it can matter what the bullpen does.
I don’t count Joba’s playoff numbers since bugs swarmed him.
“Does Mike have any intelligent callers?”
no. At least, not enough to justify listening to his show.
bottom line: unless Kim Jones or Max Kellerman becomes a co-host, his show needs to be trashed and burned.
it is stale air
What yr was it
Marlins
Angels
Tigers
Indians
And what was it that failed us mostly ? The Bul.. STARTING PITCHING !
JOBA to the PEN – it only makes sense: You say right now he is needed out of the pen. I’ll for the sake of arguement pretend I agree. Don’t you ruin Joba’s development for the future? Next year we’re back to square one.
“In 2007 the Yankees had Joba in the BP
The Indians made him a nonfactor
”
Actually, the only game Joba was really a factor in, was the midges game. Of course that was only after Andy pitched an absolute GEM. If NYY got an average performance from their starter in that game, then Joba would have been a complete nonfactor.
Now Don LeGreca on 1050 is getting on my nerves. Might be time to turn to z100
If Joba goes to the Pen, he will never get the innings to be able to go 200+ in a season, and this whole mess just starts over again. The only situation I think Joba should go back to the pen is if he keeps having shoulder issues, but outside of that, stretch him out and he’ll be our ace in a couple of years.
Ok, I’m done with this for now….If I hear one more Joba to the pen nonsense, I’m going to hurl.
Lets go Yanks and keep it rolling
new post >>>
WHY IS MELANCON NOT HERE!!!
“Joba has a 4.91 FIP.
He has allowed 73 baserunners in 49 innings. He has only pitched 6 innings in 1\2 of his starts (excluding the 0.1 inning start).
Can we stop pretending like this guy has been some dominant beast this season?”
Bingo. The fact that he is being mentioned with Johan and Halliday is just absurd.
Some interesting facts about Mo and his relation to the Joba debate:
- 5.51 ERA in 67 innings as a starter in 1995. Had one dominating pitch, that infamous cutter.
- Never thrown more than 131 IP in the minors, or at any level.
- Transitioned to the pen, pitched 107.2 IP out of the pen in 1996 in front of Wetteland, 3rd in Cy voting, posted a 2.09 ERA.
In other words, he never gained the length to be a starter, and the point below sealed his role in the pen.
The ‘96 Yankees had Pettitte, Rogers, Gooden, Key and Cone, all of whom were pretty decent. The rotations only improved from ‘97-’01, so they stuck with Mo in the pen and the rest is history.
Fast forward to 2007.
- College Joba logged a 10-2, 2.81 ERA season in Nebraska as a starter, posting a 2.81 ERA and a 9.9 K/9 as a 19 year old.
- Prior to ‘07, Joba had pitched 81 minor league innings, all as a starter. He went 9-2 with a 2.45 ERA. And a 13.8 K/9 ratio. He was touted as having four plus pitches and has dominated every level in the minors as a starter.
- Staff had Pettitte, Wang, Mussina, Clemens, and a 21 year old named Phil Hughes.
- Joba pitched all of 24 innings out of the pen and posted a 0.38 ERA.
Now in 2009:
- Staff has CC and Burnett entrenched for years to come.
- Pettitte is close to retirement. Wang isn’t stable. Hughes is still feeling his way back.
- Next year, you will have CC, Burnett, Wang and Hughes. Pettitte will most likely retire. You don’t have a fifth starter, and two out of those four could lose it at any time. Leaving you with CC and Burnett.
- There are prospects in the minor leagues such as Melancon and Robertson, both of whom are being groomed for bullpen work. Not to mention guys like Alan Horne who could be transitioned to a bullpen role.
- Are there prospective top tier starters awaiting in the farm ready for next season? No.
Mo has one unhittable pitch. Joba has four plus pitches.
Mo failed to gain length and effectiveness as a starter in both the minor and major leagues. Joba dominated the minors as a starter, and is already one of the best starters on this team, all at 23 years old.
Mo showed tremendous effectiveness in short bursts out of the pen due to his cutter. Joba has shown tremendous effectiveness in sustained starts against major league hitters who have had the time to adjust to him.
Pitchers go to the bullpen when they cannot gain length as a starter or are ineffective as a starter. Joba is neither of those, PLUS he is needed as a starter on this team as soon as next year.
Joba as a starter is a long-term fix for the Yankees. Joba as a relief guy is nothing but a band-aid for this season.
Posada DH against lefties, Cervelli/Molina Catches until Nady comes back.
Posada C against righties, Matsui DH
When Nady comes back he and Matsui DH and Posada catches. Posada’s rest comes as he sits and pinch hits late in games.
i love how the Yankees made Joba a starter… no they made him a reliever… he is a starter
“I don’t count Joba’s playoff numbers since bugs swarmed him.”
Ugh…i almost sh*t a wolfpack watching the debacle unfold.
Really Chaz?
“i love how the Yankees made Joba a starter… no they made him a reliever… he is a starter”
Seriously, and thats a very valid point that gets forgotten.
“Really Chaz?”
LOL i must be on a 3 min delay or something bc I dont get to hear these comments until well after most people on this blog.
If Joba goes to the Pen, he will never get the innings to be able to go 200+ in a season, and this whole mess just starts over again. The only situation I think Joba should go back to the pen is if he keeps having shoulder issues, but outside of that, stretch him out and he’ll be our ace in a couple of years.
———————————————-
Good point Chris. When the Yankees put Joba in the bullpen in 2007 they actully slowed down his development as a starter. He would have been better off starting for that time in the minors and building up his inning total. Now they have to make up for that lost time.
It’s amazing how 24 innings can change people’s perception so drastically.
If Tim Lincecum had started his career in the pen and pitched 24 shutout innings for the Yankees two years ago and started off slowly this year as a starter – we would be having this same debate now.
Prospective aces like Joba look good no matter what role you put them in. They look ESPECIALLY good in short bursts because they don’t have to worry about length.
However, they are starters for a reason, and that is because that’s how they can contribute the most to their team.
I don’t know what’s more ridiculous. The continuing “Joba to the pen” argument or that there are people here actually agreeing with that moron Francessa.
Moving Joba to the pen basically kills him being the #4 starter next year. You’d have to leave him at 5 because he wouldn’t have built the innings up. And what happens when the pen blows a couple of games next year? Move him to the pen again? Keep him there?
People forget that Mo, as awesome as he is, bombed as a starter because he doesn’t have the # of pitches. He has a 4 seamer and a cutter. That’s it. You can’t start with 2 pitches. Joba has 4. He needs to start to get them sharper and build his arm strength to get to 200 innings in 2 years. Some have said “well the Yankees already have an ace in CC”. So what?? You’d rather waste Joba in the pen than have 2 aces at 1-2 in 2 years? Yeah, THAT makes sense…
Teixeira hits well, let’s have him on the bench so he can pinch hit in the 8th. That’s paramount to what the argument is. It’s stupid.
Roy Halladay’s second start in the majors was a complete game shut out… comparing Joba to him is one of the biggest jokes I’ve ever heard when this guy has trouble going 5.
“Roy Halladay’s second start in the majors was a complete game shut out… comparing Joba to him is one of the biggest jokes I’ve ever heard when this guy has trouble going 5.”
When Halladay was 23, he posted a 4-7, 10.64 ERA and had to completely reinvent himself. He had a dismal 2.202 WHIP when he was Joba’s age.
Patience.
“Teixeira hits well, let’s have him on the bench so he can pinch hit in the 8th. That’s paramount to what the argument is. It’s stupid.”
No, it’s like having the best SS in the league play 3b.. oh wait a minute..
“No, it’s like having the best SS in the league play 3b.. oh wait a minute..”
A starting SS and 3B impact roughly the same amount of innings, and get almost equal AB’s.
Starters impact more than twice the innings a reliever does.
Halladay found his groove when he was 25 and became a bona fide ace. The previous two years he was at best, mediocre.
Yankee fans can’t wait 2 more years for Joba? Come on.
“When Halladay was 23, he posted a 4-7, 10.64 ERA and had to completely reinvent himself. He had a dismal 2.202 WHIP when he was Joba’s age.
Patience.”
I was talking about when Halladay was 21.. He pitched a complete game shutout against the Tigers (I think?). That’s 2 years earlier.. He showed that he could go the distance and be dominant..
You’d have a better argument comparing Phil Hughes to Halladay than you do Joba.. Hughes has had those dominating games.. Joba hasn’t.
I for one am so tired of the Joba argument its not even funny.
Roy Halladay’s second start in the majors was a complete game shut out… comparing Joba to him is one of the biggest jokes I’ve ever heard when this guy has trouble going 5.
————
You mean like Halladay’s second start in 2000 (when he was 23) where he went 4.2 and gave up 6 ER? Or how he was 4-7 with a 10.64 ERA?
Outside of the freak case, it takes TIME to become a top starter.
“You’d have a better argument comparing Phil Hughes to Halladay than you do Joba..”
Check out Halladay’s 20-24 seasons. They weren’t pretty. He took his lumps before he put it all together, like ANY other prospective ace.
Manny Delcarmen = Jose Veras
“A starting SS and 3B impact roughly the same amount of innings, and get almost equal AB’s.
Starters impact more than twice the innings a reliever does.”
AB’s have nothing to do with fielding. And I know you’re not going to say that SS and 3b are the same position.
Starters do impact more than twice the innings a reliever does.. I think that’s part of the point.
“AB’s have nothing to do with fielding. And I know you’re not going to say that SS and 3b are the same position.”
Heck no. They are different in a lot of ways.
Point I was trying to make is that SS -> 3B is nothing like SP -> RP, since SS and 3B make roughly the same impact on games.
“Check out Halladay’s 20-24 seasons. They weren’t pretty. He took his lumps before he put it all together, like ANY other prospective ace.”
Again… He proved that he could go the distance and still be dominating on many occasions.
Do we REALLY need to relive the 04 ALCS…Im getting ill listening to this.
“Roy Halladay’s second start in the majors was a complete game shut out… comparing Joba to him is one of the biggest jokes I’ve ever heard when this guy has trouble going 5.——————
You mean like Halladay’s second start in 2000 (when he was 23) where he went 4.2 and gave up 6 ER? Or how he was 4-7 with a 10.64 ERA?
Outside of the freak case, it takes TIME to become a top starter.”
And the two previous seasons, he pitched complete games in the majors. Stop cherry picking bad stats and pretend they mean something because of the age.
“And the two previous seasons, he pitched complete games in the majors. Stop cherry picking bad stats and pretend they mean something because of the age.”
Taking stats over whole seasons is cherry picking?
I think cherry picking is taking single complete games in bad or mediocre seasons and using them for your argument.
“Taking stats over whole seasons is cherry picking?
I think cherry picking is taking single complete games in bad or mediocre seasons and using them for your argument.”
The 2nd start of 2000 when he was 23 and comparing it to Joba is not a whole season argument… it’s a single game argument.
Please read before you post.
I’m sure Francesa thanks all of you for making his show #1 in the ratings. You say he is stupid, etc., but you continue to listen. He voices his opinion. That’s what his show is about.
Joba spoiled us by being a dominant set-up man for Mo. He is not that as a starter. Not yet, he needs time. Check his stats as a starter this year, they are average.
Exactly. Joba’s is average.
The point with Halladay is.. his stats weren’t average. He had a few dominant starts in there. Yes he had to go down to the minors and get reworked… but you’re comparing the season that led to that to Joba’s season now.
That just doesn’t make sense.
Let me get this straight. Francessa said Joba’s like the 25th best pitcher in the league right now?
Presuming he’s talking about all of baseball, that means he thinks Joba would be the #1 starter on no less than 4 teams and the #2 starter on the rest of them.
If he’s talking about the 14 team AL, that means he thinks Joba is the #2 starter on no less than 3 of the teams the #3 starter on the rest of them.
What. An. Idiot.
Did he watch the last time we were in the playoffs? Did he see the cameraman veer out to Mariano Rivera…the great Mariano…sitting on the bench unable to be used because our starting pitching got shellacked?
That’s the problem with making relievers your top guns. If your starters suck, you never get to them.
If we get into the playoffs and Joba’s at or near his innings limit, I have no problem with him being in the bullpen then. Lots of teams do that if they have good 4th or 5th starters they aren’t planning to use.
But to say he should be in the pen now is just stupid.
E-gawa
You’d have a better argument comparing Phil Hughes to Halladay than you do Joba.. Hughes has had those dominating games.. Joba hasn’t.
———————————————————
Do you forget him striking out 9 and shutting down the Red Sox last year? Didn’t Joba just strike out 12 batters in a game a couple weeks ago?
Hughes almost tossed a no-hitter a year ago. Since then he’s had what, three good starts? I like Hughes and think he’ll be great too but to put those starts on pedestal while diminishing what Joba did is silly.
If anything, all of them should be discarded due to small sample size. Three games does not tell anything about a pitcher. Bronson Arroyo looked good for three games too.
Halladay didn’t go deep into every game in the beginning either but he did in a few… just like Hughes.
Joba hasn’t.. he hasn’t even reached the 8th inning of a game.. his 12k’s were in 5 innings and he was out of the game.
He’s gone to 7 twice… once against Boston last year and once against detroit this year.. That’s still a little short to be comparing him to what Halladay was like in the beginning.
E-Gawa, if you’re going to use stats to back up your flawed argument, how about you look at the actual stats? You want to use full season stats and not ‘cherry-pick’? Fine.
Halladay’s 1999 stats (his first full year in the league): 16 starts. 6+ innings: 10. 7+: 3. 8+: 0.
Joba’s 2008 season (first full in the league): 12 starts. 6+: 7. 7+: 1. 8+: 0
Halladay 2000: 13 starts. 6+: 3. 7+: 1. 8+: 0.
Joba 2009 (to date): 9 starts. 6+: 4. 7+: 1. 8+: 0.
Through first 7 starts in 2000, Halladay’s ERA: 11.97
Joba through 7: 3.76.
(I would have used through 9, but Halladay had a relief appearance where he gave up 3 runs in 1 inning and I didn’t feel like doing math)
It’s amazing just how different the stats are…
I’m not saying Joba is as good as Halladay. I (and the Yankees) think he could be and you have to NURTURE that to get him there.
Halladay had a complete game during his 1999 season. I don’t know why you kept that out of your comparison.
You’re also comparing the season (2000) that led to Halladay going back down to A ball with Joba’s season this year.
I don’t understand that.
Halladay is a different beast of a pitcher and the point I’m trying to make is that he (unlike Joba) has shown it since the beginning.