Today in The Journal News
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jun 01, 2009 
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Some young players made crucial mistakes as the Yankees were beaten by Cleveland.
Chien-Ming Wang appears ready to rejoin the rotation. This notebook also has updates on a record being tied, Carl Pavano, Melky Cabrera, Andy Pettitte, Mark Teixeira and Derek Jeter.
With all this bullpen talk…I wonder when Melancon will be returning….He has to be better then Veras
“Chien-Ming Wang appears ready to rejoin the rotation.”
Was I watching the same game as you?
You have to expect growing pains with the kids; it’s just hard when several of them experience them at the same time.
I don’t get it Paul. He was hitting 94 mph and the ball was sinking. What was wrong with his outing?
Unfortunately, the expectations for Melancon are way out of whack. Maybe the expectations will be fulfilled in a year or so, but not now. All he is is another talented prospect that may or may not help us this year. The Yankees need help in the pen, they really do. The kids are going to be up and down, Coke is unreliable…….we’ve got Mo and Aceves right now……that’s about it. It’s remarkable just how many of the pitchers regressed – the worst case scenario happened with the pen and I don’t know how it gets fixed. I do think Marte, as he’ll be healthy upon his return, will help……and so will Bruney. Even with that, the pen isn’t good……and I do want to see Aceves continue this good form before I even say that he is absolutely reliable.
*Robertson should not be used in the 8th inning until he can make the 6th/7th his own (he should be eased into his role gradually), but the pen is so bad that what choice was there?
I think the Yankees could be a special team, but this pen scares me to death…
I agree with the other Paul. Wang is no where near ready for the rotation. The sinker was down the first inning he pitched. After that it was always up. It was just a weak hitting Indians team that couldn’t take advantage of him. If he had pitched those innings against Texas or Boston, we’d all be angry about how many runs he was still giving up.
Leave him in the bullpen or send him back to AAA for more conditioning. If he starts games, that ERA is going back up.
The young kids would not have been needed had the umpire not called Jeter out, had Gardner not butchered that line drive, had Posada just hit a fly ball. The bullpen is volatile by nature, most are.
“They did want me to steal, and I didn’t go. I should have. Another mistake,” Gardner said.
“Robertson was called in to face the right-handed hitting Francisco. Robertson walked Francisco on five pitches before falling behind Peralta and giving up the walk-off hit.”
“I’ve got to get those two outs and I couldn’t do it,” Robertson said. “I just didn’t get it in the zone.”
——————————-
totally separate from talent,skill, athletic ability is the ability to be fearless .
gardner and robertson just plain choked today. it doesn’t mean it’ll happen again, but there’s no guarantee it won’t.
part of what a manager has to do is separate the guys who play fearless from the ones that don’t.
even if a player gets used to the regular season, the playoffs is another step. players that take a while to be fearless in a new situation are not likely going to do well in a playoff situation.
scott brosious is the kind of player who wasn’t a great player, but he played fearless. the yankees don’t have the luxury of finding out in a playoff series if a young player can play under pressure.
they need to simulate the pressure ahead of time as much as possible to see if they can come through and play like it’s any other game.
i believe playing fearless is an attitude that can be spread throughout the team . the management and coaches can encourage it by not flipping out when a player plays aggressively and makes a mistake.
this is how the angels play. they run into a lot of outs, but they run into a lot of runs too.
garnder has not been encouraged to be aggressive consistently this year, so when a time came when he had to be, he just couldn’t rise to the occasion.
it’s as much the yankees fault as his. they don’t do it all the time, so he choked when it was put on him. same with robertson. the yankees like strikes , but they don’t push pounding the strike zone and pitching to contact like some teams do( twins).
robertson had no chance with his composure gone at the time. if we could see the fear through the tv , why did the yankees let him pitch? it’s also on girardi and eiland for just letting him pitch in that condition.
all this said, players like gardner and robertson can learn to play without fear in big moments, but they have to practice going into situations over their heads and letting it rip anyway.
it’s hard to do this on the yankees. it’s easier to do it on other teams where winning isn’t life and death. this is the problem with bringing up young players to the yankees. they have little margin for error learning to be fearless.
learning to play without fear is something that a player has to have a meeting with himself about as it’s ultimately on him, but the yankees can encourage it too. it’s on both the player and the team to get players who can play under pressure.
Great…now send Hughes to AAA so our bullpen can still stink.
Are the Pauls serious. Wang, had velocity, and tons of movement. 5 ground ball outs, to one lazy pop out. The three hits….a slapped one hopper past a drawn in arod, a one hopper past Jeter, and a Baltimore chop. He certainly looked more rotation ready than Hughes did yesterday. While Hughes showed flashes of brilliance, he struggled at times, much more than Wang did. You don’t lose your job to injury. and he is as close now, as he is going to get.
Melancon can help this team when he gets another chance.
It’s one thing to have a shutdown pen and not wanting to give unproven rookies a chance – but this pen is far from dominant and Girardi needs to find someone who can get major league hitters out.
They’ve got nothing to lose and everything to gain by giving Melancon another opportunity to step up when the alternatives are names like Veras and Tomko.
Young pitchers with Melancon’s talents can and do come back to pitch well after a rough outing or two.
I agree with the other Paul and Paul from Cali,you Mean Hughes is no where near ready for the rotation too? Is that right?
Regarding PH: There are no “do-overs” in baseball and you can’t pretend that game in Balt. didn’t happen, but it really skewed his stats. Without that game he is 3-1, 3.54 ERA, 1.27 WHIP for the season. In the last 3 games he is 2-0, 3.50 ERA, .94 WHIP. Does he have things to work on? Yes. like going deeper into games. But I hope the NYY realize that he is becoming the pitcher they wanted in 2008. I like CMW and I don’t have a solution for the “6 into 5″ situation. But I think pitching PH out of the pen or sending him back to SWB are steps in the wrong direction. It’s definitely an interesting situation.
Paul from Cali,
You do realize that Wang did pitch well against Texas last week and yesterday’s outing against the Tribe was the very same club that pounded him at the Stadium in his last start for the Yanks.
True, they were without Sizemore and Martinez but those guys weren’t the only ones hitting him hard at the Stadium.
Wang is getting very close and that’s huge because he gives this team a lot of innings when he’s right. That will help the pen as much as anything.
If he pitches well out of the pen again this week, he’ll probably be back in the rotation within the next week or two.
Wang can’t be sent to AAA.
Somebody needs to make it crystal clear to Gardner that the reason that he is on this team is his speed. If he is afraid to use that asset, he is of no use to the team. Remember Justin Christian last year? Playing in one of his first couple of games as a rookie, he stole third in a huge spot last year. Gardner needs that kind of fearlessness; with his speed, he should have a certain arrogance about being able to steal any base at any time against anybody.
randy l -
I read that Gardner always has the green light. Yesterday it was a direct order to go. I believe always having the green light is one way of telling the player to be aggressive and fearless and that they trust his judgment. Are you saying that they should be giving him the direct signal to go more often?
The other thing is – pitchers pounding the strike zone. Aside from telling the pitchers to do so, I don’t know how you can physically get them to do this. At some point, and you did say this, it is on the players themselves. I have heard Girardi on many occasions talk about the need to throw strikes, to not walk hitters; I’ve heard him compliment other teams’ pitchers’ ability to pound the strike zone – which I take as an indication that that is something he wants his own pitchers to do.
The players really have to just do it. And the way to get them fearless is to not shy away from using them in similar situations going forward. I believe they all learned a valuable lesson yesterday. I believe they don’t want to fail next time around. But desire and effort (and coaching)don’t always translate into good execution.
I do agree with you, though, that players need to have the mentality that they’re the best, that they won’t fail, that they will get the job done. Apparently Aceves has this attitude from the pen, and it is what has made Mo “Mo” for all these years. Gardner is an enigma to me.
I think the relief pitchers, especially the young ones, want so much to make a favorable impression and prove they’re meant to be here, it may be factoring into their actual performance.
Doreen:
To me, certain things are implied in the notion of poundng the strike zone. Things like 1) Trust your stuff 2) Don’t nibble. 3)You might get beat, but get beat throwing your best pitches for strikes rather than nibbling around the edges and walking guys. Robertson did none of those things yesterday.
Mark in Tampa June 1st, 2009 at 9:00 am
Somebody needs to make it crystal clear to Gardner that the reason that he is on this team is his speed. If he is afraid to use that asset, he is of no use to the team. Remember Justin Christian last year? Playing in one of his first couple of games as a rookie, he stole third in a huge spot last year. Gardner needs that kind of fearlessness; with his speed, he should have a certain arrogance about being able to steal any base at any time against anybody.
——————-
Gardner showed that aggressiveness [and reamed by a lot of LoHud regulars] two weeks ago when he attempted to score from second on a comebacker to the mound that bounced 30 feet from home plate and Mauer tagged him out on a great play.
I don’t have a problem with a youngster making a mistake as long as he learns from it.
We’ve seen Melky lose consciousness plenty of times over the last couple of years by misplaying fly balls, throwing to the wrong base when he has no shot at the runner [and other runners move into scoring position], and sliding into first base about a dozen times before he actually stopped doing it.
That’s the nature of the beast with young kids. They are going to make mistakes.
Paul from Cali :June 1st, 2009 at 8:42 am:
Wang is no where near ready for the rotation.It was just a weak hitting Indians team that couldn’t take advantage of him.
Why Hughes lost 4 points within 5 innings?…..
Keith Law posted his guess at the first 10 picks in the MLB draft. This is what he thinks:
1. S. Strasburg, RHP (WAS)
2. T. Scheppers, RHP (SEA)
3. D. Ackley, 1B/CF (SD)
4. T. Sanchez, C (PIT)
5. A. Crow, RHP (BAL)
6. T. Wheeler, CF (SF)
7. A. White, RHP (ATL)
8. T. Matzek, LHP (CIN)
9. J. Turner, RHP (DET)
10. K. Gibson, RHP (WAS)
Sanchez at 4 is crazy, hopefully it comes true.
Giuseppe Franco,
I didn’t have any problem with the Gardner play against the Twins. In fact I had forgotten about it already, that is the kind of use of his speed I like to see out of guys like Gardner. Maybe I am being too hard on him, could be he just didn’t feel right yesterday, but that was a must run situation with Posada up there. In fact, I was upset at Girardi for not letting him run, until I found out later that they wanted him to go.
I guess Texas was a weak hitting team also
The bullpen is out of sorts with only Mo having a defined role. If Bruney were 100% he would be the normal set-up man. Aceves can be muti-purpose. Veras can’t be trusted.
Robertson and Coke are the keys. They have to establish themselves as reliable 6th and 7th inning pitchers that can pitch without damage. Melancon will eventually be a factor.
When a reliever comes in to the game in the 8th or 9th inning to mop up a 6+ run lead, the manager is watching anxiously, and the fans know something monumentally bad will probably happen, he has to go. I can’t see any productive role for Veras on this team.
“I guess Texas was a weak hitting team also”
Weak OBP team with very good power that strikes out a ton. It’s a good offense, but it can be pitched to.
“Robertson and Coke are the keys.”
Not an especially encouraging thought.
When Wang returns to the rotation, and Hughes is sent down, who comes back for the pen? Albie? Edwar? Melancon?
Patrick,
I don’t know how Keith got the info (we didn’t leak it to him) but, last week, Neal Huntington (Pirates GM) flew from Chicago, where the Pirates were playing, to Boston to meet with Tony. The meeting went very well.
It doesn’t mean they will take him at 4. He definitely made the final cut. We will probably know more this week.
He certainly didn’t hurt himself catching all 25 innings of a tournament game Saturday night, then coming back and getting 2 hits and an RBI yesterday.
All a big waiting game now. I expect more movement on some of his options later in the week.
If the yankees want the 5-inning SP rotation works, it’s quite reasonable that they would need more long relievers like Wang. Maybe CC is the next guy to the bullpen to support those young “talents”.
LETS NOT BLAME THE ROOKIES FOR IT, IF POSADA HIT A DARN SAC FLY NO ONE WOULD BE BLAMING GARDNER.
Steve B -
I agree with your statement – no nibbling, trust your stuff, get beat with your best.
They (the kids) have to do that this level. Obviously, they’ve done it before or they wouldn’t be here to begin with. It really must be a little intimidating at first for some of these guys.
Joe Cranston -
You’re got a point that no one else has been focusing on. The veteran did not get the job done, either.
what confuses me is gardner steals a ton of bases.now he is affraid to steal???
it happens.he waited to long.
he should of stolen second,posada moved him over.now you got gardner on 3rd with one out & we probably win.
this has to be on girardi.he has to make sure gardner steals.
how can posada swing before gardner is on second?
something about girardi.i think he lies.
i would not be suprised at all if he put it on gardner.
the other thing that is forgotten is how come he took wang out or did not bring mo in?
you have to win today.
aceves & pettitte both pitched last on the 29th.
why not keep wang in & use aceves if pettitte can’t go?
the only thing i am saying is gardner has to steal.that has to be on girardi & how can you bring coke in who is a nervous wreck?
leave hughes as the 5th starter & wang in the pen & let this thing figure itself out.
i think hughes is about to break out.
Re: the bullpen issues….
This blog tends to be very bi-polar, especially after losses.
Everybody wants the “young guys” to get a chance. Yet, when they fail, they want them out.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way.
Young players have to learn how to play at this level. To do so means, they will make mistakes. That’s the nature of the game.
Its why when people discuss internal options, such as Melancon, Garcia, Kontos, etc, do it cautiously.
Its just about impossible to have an almost all rookie and second year bullpen and expect to win.
Last year at at this time, Phil Coke was a struggling starting pitcher in AA. To expect him to be a finished, consistent bullpen arm right now is asking too much of him.
The real key to the Yankees fixing the bullpen is the health of Bruney and Marte. If they can get those guys back and effective, it moves the younger guys back into less high octane roles.
Of all of the young guys, Melancon probably has the best all around package of stuff, composure and fearlessness to contribute. Even with those three great attributes, he put on 10 of the 18 baserunners he faced when he was called up. Just shows how tough it is to be effective at the ML level. He will get another chance soon.
Its why I think Huston Street and others may be in play for the Yankees at the deadline if Bruney and/or Marte can’t get back to good health and effectiveness.
Bru gets the goober comment of the early morning. Congrats.
Besides Street, is anybody else a real possibility to be available and be able to really help this pen?
Maybe Neal Cotts if the White Sox keep floundering. I have always thought he was one of the toughest guys that the Yanks face.
“Its why I think Huston Street and others may be in play for the Yankees at the deadline if Bruney and/or Marte can’t get back to good health and effectiveness.”
Wonder whether the Rays get in on Street sooner rather than later.
bru,
We have to win today? They are in 1st place. They have won 13 of 17. Is the season over if they lose today? You never bring the closer in, in a tie game on the road. If Girardi leaves Wang in and he gives up a run, you idiots would kill him for not bringing someone in. It is 1 loss. It is baseball, you lose games often. Stop whining and get over it.
“Maybe Neal Cotts if the White Sox keep floundering.”
I think Cotts started the year with Cubs. Thought I read he was sent down to AAA.
Yeah, Cotts is currently with AAA Iowa in the Cubs organization.
I start Hughes again this week with Wang ready to pitch 3-4 innings behind either Hughes or Joba.
Wang is just about ready to take is spot back, but not quite yet.
Hopefully Andy is OK or we’ll see Wang in his spot.
I’d keep Hughes up for a while once Wang takes his spot back. Someone will need a rest and the Pen could use the help.
The only way I send Hughes back to AAA is if the other 5 are perfect health. That is unlikely as Andy is already in need of rest.
I see Phil staying with the team for most if not the whole season.
The Yankees should have won yesterday, but…
Hopefully Joba does not get attacked by the midges tonight.
You’re right, he has struggled for a couple of years now, and is with the Cubs, to boot. Shows how volatile the pen can be, Cotts was money during the White Sox ’05 run, now he is borderline ML material. Shows how much I know about other teams bullpens, too. HA!
few things from yesterdays game:
1- Hughes threw very nice and had just 1 rough inning. He deserves to start again as he will only get better IMO.
2- Wang also threw very nice but had to come out due to possible start on Wednesday for Pettite so you couldn’t put a lot of pitches on him.
3- Gardner screwed up not running and I would have liked a hit and run there at the very least.
4- Two weak at bats by Posada, hit a damn fly ball.
5- Matsui can’t run at all.
6- Bullpen is weak and if Joba doesn’t stretch out his innings in the next 2 or 3 starts then I would move him now instead of later when they will move him anyway.
7- Tex is awesome, what a great signing. Better defensively than I thought and right there with Donnie B and way better than Tino with glove.
8- Arod having trouble going to his right defensively.
9- We are still a good team that will continue to get better.
it would be a tough decision for Yankees management but the season is still long.
-PH is pitching very good if not great. He could be better if stays in the rotation. Question is whether he has inns limit and if he can go deeper in the game. We expect starters should last at least for 6 inns and ideally 7? He pitched 5 or less in 5 of his 6 starts.
-PH should stay in rotation at this time and management should monitor his progress and his endurance, and prepare him for Sept./Oct. Line up can back him up if he can limit runs less than 3-4 in 5-6 inns
-Wang looks like old him in his past three reliefs with his velocity and sinker back, but not sure if he can now eat 7 inns. He was made as a starter for sure and I do believe coach G and E are evaluating if he can pitch 90-100 counts; I am not blaming coaches to keep him in the BP especially our BP sucks and Wang could be a big help at least in the short term before Marte/Bruney back. However, keep a good starter in BP is kind of a waste
-I don’t like the way Yankees communicate (not treat) Wang; I don’t feel they ignore his contribution in the past few seasons before his injury. Think Cashman and Girardi should have a candid talk with Wang about the plan on him even it’s difficult to have a clear plan, at least they shall express their respect on him, so he won’t feel uncertain be uncomfortable. Wang is a quiet guy and you might need to talk to him to know what he is thinking.
-JB needs to bring his velocity back, I don’t expect him to hit 96-98 as a starter, but consistent 94 should be the case and that will help to make his slider more effective. maybe JB to BP is a good short-term solution for this 6-5 starters debate
-BP is a major issue, if not fixed, winning close games is a big question mark without a doubt
That’s a great line in the article, Pete.
“Carl Pavano, whose four years of rest while in New York have served him well in Cleveland, held the Yankees to three runs over 7 1/3 innings”
We shuld have plans for young players to learn and and they must grow up as schedule. For past three years Houghs was not able to pitch well under presure. He maybe will be a no. 5 starter in Yankees in the future, but not an ace. Why does Yankees give him many chances for past three years? It is not fair for other young players.
I was just amazed by some posts I saw on this board. Some said Wang was not ready because his ball is still high etc etc. So they expect good pitchers to throw all balls at the corner of the strike zone all the time?
There IS a reason why many people dislike the way Yankees treated Wang. They failed to set an standard for Wang to be back in the rotation. They first want the movement of that sinker, then they want the velocity. And now Wang is showing sign on both, I don’t know what they are waiting for. Daisuke got the ball back after three rehabs, when his velocity came back as RS had promised him. Why can’t Girardi do the same thing? One promise would have shown respect to Yankee’s most game winners in the past 3 years. Just imagine would you do the same thing to C.C. if he is on the same situation?
And enough kids talking. I agree kids have to be developed, but you call 4ER on 5 innings “not a bad one”? Fine, imagine Wang comes back to the rotation and posts exactly the same number on his first start. Now all fans will go for sending Wang back to rehab because “his sinker is still high”. This is the most ridiculous double standard I see. They expect Wang to give them Ace-like result, but in return do not give him Ace-like respect. That’s really fair, I think.
Lots of people don’t know how hurt it is to be stuck in a relieving roll. Baseball is a sport all about self adjustment. If you know when you are getting the ball, you can adjust your performance to be maximized. A red-hot Melky can perform better than A-Rod when he’s not on. Now Wang has to worry about unexpected appearance every day, because he doesn’t know which starting pitcher would blow next. And he is supposed to be perfect on every inning, if he wants to be back in the rotation. Do you know how much pressure is that?
To the same reason I don’t think we need to make Hughes or Joba a reliever. Just send one of them to AAA. They are both starters and they will eventually get their chance.
All this talk about pitchers against weak or strong teams means little. Some the best get hit hard by the worst teams. All teams can be shut down by good pitching.
Wang looks Ok but didn’t see anything exciting. Don’t know where he should be right now, but not LATE relief!!!
Hughes looking better. Still I want Joba in late relief, will help team much more with about 40 appearances of 1-2 inns. thru rest of season. Veras won’t last much longer.
Until he throws 1st. pitch strikes, he doesn’t belong in majors. Hope Ramirez never comes up again!!! Melancon can do better than either now!!!
Who do you wanna see in set-up role???
I’m for Joba all the way!!! Made for this role!!!
More valuable to TEAM here!!! Who’s gonna replace Mo???
No one looks the part more than Joba!!!
another loss to the brilliant on field tactical manager
- go to great lengths to get runner in scoring position — then leave the fastest yankee squatting on 1st while the guy off the dl and slow anyone can hit into a dp — it is not like there was a risk of gardiner not getting a jump
then we don’t hit and run — so dp no run -
then we have a 0-0 game in the ninth with jeter damon tex and possibly arod to score in the 1oth — do we use mo to get to the 10th – noooooooooooooo we don’t have a lead –
let those guys hit and maybe we have a 10 run lead that sister sarah can hod — i mean veras
i am stillangry at damon’s 1st pitch weak swing in 1sr inning not moving jeter – they like hughes hit batter and walk come bac to haunt